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From YouTube: W31 0mega WG: Token engineering
Description
The 0mega Working Group examines the ethos of and ethics in token engineering as well as the shared vision and diversity of its communities.
We gather every two weeks on Wednesday at 8pm CET.
Steward: Sebnem
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A
A
B
Don't
know
I
don't
know
why,
why
she's
muted,
by
an
admin
by
the
server,
how.
A
D
B
Oh,
I
you're
muted
from
the
stewards
call
last
week,
but
I
don't
know
how
to
unmute.
You.
B
We're
on
it
someone
I've
posted
a
call
to
stewards.
A
A
A
A
You
can
design
incentives
of
yours
choosing
by
giving
them
block
rewards
put
another
way
you
can
get
people
to
do
stuff
by
rewarding
them
with
tokens.
Blockchains
are
incentive
machines
and,
in
the
conclusion
part,
he
stated
that
objective
function,
design,
akka
incentives,
aka
incentive
design
is
hard,
but
we
have
to
try
to
do
a
good
job.
We
need
solid
engineering,
theory
practice
and
tools.
That
is
token
engineering.
A
So
as
we
can
see
how
the
origins
of
token
engineering
drive
is
very
much
related
to
incentivization
and
incentivization
design
and
objective
design,
so
while
we
are
actually
creating
token
systems,
we
are
conditioning
some
behaviors
over
some
others.
So
I
just
wanted
to
show
this
little
graph
like
good
old
social
science
dilemma.
A
So
agent
is
affecting
structure
or
the
structures
they
affecting
aging.
It's
like
hard
to
hard
to
answer
question
which
one
is
the
dominant
parameter
that
is
affecting
each
other,
but
at
the
end
we
know
that
structures
or
agents
sometimes
affecting
each
other's
after
the
integ.
After
the
engagement
between
the
agent
and
structure,
we
will
have
a
new
structure
that
will
affect
agent,
and
this
agent
will
affect
the
structure
again,
so
this
will
be
like
a
vicious.
This
will
be
like
a
cycle
that
is
ever
growing
structure
and
agent
component,
so
in.
D
Our
case,
I
have
an
expanded
version
of
that.
Just
in
case
you
ever
want
it.
A
A
So
what
I
wanted
to
talk
about
is
that,
so,
while
we
are
creating
these
incentives
for
the
agents,
we
are
actually
conditioning
some
specific
behaviors
that
can
also
be
considered
as
moral
behaviors.
So
because,
for
example,
while
we
are
emphasizing
some
some
behaviors
through
our
incentive
alignments,
we
are
not
emphasizing
some
others.
So
these
these
behaviors
create
the
moral
agent
of
us.
A
A
So
I
wanted
to
say
this
is
not
very
unique
to
actually
token
engineer
or
blockchain
space
in
general,
so
in
in
in
traditional
world.
Let's
say
we
have
been
seeing
similar
practice
practiced
by
central
banks,
so
central
banks,
as
highly
centralized
bodies,
has
been
conducting
their
duty
to
manage
economic
policy
of
countries,
so
they
are
printing
money.
They
are
hijacking,
they
are
increasing
interest
rates.
They
are
playing
all
those
parameters
according
to
like
token
engineers,
they
are
designing.
Incentives
for
according
to
countries
need
so
this
is
the
trickier
part.
A
So
what
is
the
need
of
a
country?
So
this
is
a
very
high
dimensional
thing.
So,
for
example,
if
you
are
a
sen,
if
you
are,
if
you
are
coming
from
a
central
bank
which
is
highly
centralized-
and
you
are
a
harvard
graduate
living
lived
in
a
very
privileged
position
for
so
long
time,
so
your
incentives
may
not
be
aligned.
A
For
example,
let's
say
an
immigrant
in
your
country,
so
neet
is
a
crucial
word
here
that
has
been
used
by
economists
as
thinking
that
economics
is
a
science,
so
it's
fulfilling
a
need,
but
what
it
actually
fulfill
is
a
sort
of
choices.
So
we,
I
think
it's
kind
of
impossible
to
say
that
economics
is
a
science
like
physics,
because
it
entails
choices
over
human
capacity.
A
So
I
wanted
to
give
a
one
example
about
central
banks,
so
in
1979,
after
the
stagflation
crisis,
like
high
intra
high
inflation
and
high
employment
in
all
over
world
united
states
finance.
Minister
paul
walker
initiated
his
famous
policy
called
walker
shock,
so
he
introduced
unprecedented
interest
rates
when
u.s
inflation
rates
were
double
digits.
A
The
negative
interest
rate
at
the
time
of
before
the
shock
suddenly
increased
to
more
than
five
percent
real
interest
rate.
So
so
again,
when
we
go
back
to
the
discussion
of
need,
so
this
creates
two
different
solution:
two
different
outcome:
one
is
this
course
sharp
recession
and
rapid
unemployment
increase.
Unemployment
rose
five
percent
to
ten
percent
between
97
to
19,
17
79
to
1982,
whereas
inflation
fell
from
13
to
3
percent.
A
So
which
one
is
an
accomplishment,
it's
a
good
question
to
ask
so,
for
example,
according
to
wikipedia
he
was
widely
credited
with
having
ended
to
high
inflation
of
levels
of
united
states.
So
it's
an
accomplishment
for
some
people,
but
increasing
unemployment
is
kind
of
not
accomplishment
for
some
other.
So
while
we
are
thinking
about
designing
incentives,
we
should
consider
that
there
is.
A
There
is
many
outcome,
that's
that
can
affect
somebody's
position,
so
we
should
take
considered
not
just
parameters
of
like
having
best,
for
example,
in
terms
of
blockchain
space
we
we
should
consider
not
just
like
the
best
liquidity
pools
or
like
more
total
locked
value,
etc,
but
also
we
need
to
think
that.
How
will
this
affect
our
society,
like
as
thinking
as
cyber
society,
our
society
and
how
left?
How
will
this
affect
moral
behaviors
of
our
agents?
A
So
we
have
more
democratic
approach.
We
are
participating
in
mechanism
design,
for
example,
for
the
abc,
augmented,
bonding
curve,
which
we
together
choose
like
exit
tribute
all
those
parameters
like
conviction,
voting
parameters.
A
So,
for
example,
even
though
there's
a
hierarchical
real
relationship
in
our
daw
like,
for
example,
there's
stewards,
there's
contributors,
there's
leads
for
some
working
group-
treasury
managers,
but
the
source
of
legitimacy
in
the,
for
example,
in
the
case
of
central
banks,
it's
technocracy,
so
if
you
go
to
the
best
schools
etc,
regardless
of
the
community's
opinion,
you
will
be
appointed
as
the
high-level
bureaucrat
so
in
central
banks.
There's
no
democratic
participation
even
slightest,
but
in
our
community
legitimacy
comes
from
mostly
from
your
community.
A
So,
for
example,
if
we
wanted
to
nominate
somebody
as
stewards,
we
need
communities
approval,
for
example,
in
transparency
working
group.
The
treasury
manager
is
to
decided
together,
as
far
as
I
followed,
etc,
and
the
accountability
structure.
So
here
the
accountability
is
coming
from
communities
feeling
about.
What's
going
on,
I
feel
like,
but
in
the
case
of
traditional
entities,
it's
more
about
numbers
and
discussions
of
certain
groups
advantage,
so
it's
less
community-based
and
more
special
group
based.
A
So
these
are
the
good
things.
But,
however,
what
I
believe
what
we
are
missing
is
that,
even
though
these
are
good
things
that
we
are
participating
in
mechanism
design,
we
are
creating
different
source
of
legitimacy
and
accountability
structure.
We
have
been
engaging
very
little
about
how
those
that
that
I
mentioned
how
those
parameters
affect
our
moral
behavior.
So
nick
wrote
a
very
good
comment.
A
For
example,
high
entry
tribute
may
increase
people's
motivation
about
creating
narrative
on
tc,
because
they
will
they
believe
that
common
pool
will
have
more
money,
so
they
can
get
benefited
more
so,
but
we
are
kind
of
misleading
this
moral
aspect
of
token
engineering.
So,
from
our
omega
manifest,
I
wanted
to
read
the
quote:
we
wanted
to
explore:
contextual
ethics
in
token
engineering
and
not
a
prescriptive
normative
one
as
third
mode
of
ethical
thinking
even
go
further
and
enable
learning
how
to
apply
multiple
modes
of
ethical
reasoning.
This
is
source.
A
F
Thank
you
that
that
was
very.
Can
you
hear
me.
F
Okay,
cool
so
good
to
be
heard
again.
No
thank
you
for
the
preparation.
It
was
really
soothing
to
see
the
and
that
we
could
focus
on
on
main
points.
So
thanks
for
the
preparation
in
any
case-
and
I
would
actually
just
leave
the
floor
for
comments
but
definitely
want
to
add
you
know
if
you
just
keep
sharing
the
presentation,
I
think
it's
you
pick
the
really
nice
point,
but
yes,
please,
everyone
chime
in.
G
Yeah,
like
I
had
the
first
way
of
thinking
about
it,
it
rings
some
bells
in
my
mind,
about
like
a
a
transition
from
this
from
biopolitical
control
like
a
fucoleon
paradigm
or
episteme,
to
like
societies
of
control
and
kind
of
algorithmic.
How
to
say,
like
algorithm.
Algorithmic
enterprises
like
corporate
algorithmic
forms
of
governance
towards
like
neuro
marketing
and
all
this
kind
of
new
forms
of.
G
Behavioral
sciences,
so
my
thoughts
are
going
a
bit
like
how
to
think
about
it
from
a
lithuanian
point
of
view
between,
like
the
kenyan
versions
of
thinking
about
formalism
and
the
more
delusion
forms
of
forms
of
div
individuals-
and
you
know
this
kind
of
societies
of
control
that
we're
getting
into
so.
These
are
like
the
associations.
F
F
G
E
What
I
notice
is
jumps
out
at
me
that
I
that
I
think,
you're
sort
of
speaking
to-
but
I
didn't
see
in
the
presentation
in
relation
to
these
trade-offs
and
externalities-
are
unintended
consequences.
The
the
second
order
and
network
effects
of
these
decisions
and
how
a
question
is
sort
of
like
kind
of
on
the
tip
of
my
tongue,
about
like
what?
What
would
we
do
if
we
made
a
choice
and
then
realized?
Oh,
you
know
there
is
a.
There
is
a
second
order
consequence
that
it
is
unexpected
right
is
there?
E
F
So
practically
you
know
we're
big
fans
of
feedback
loops
exactly
to
make
those
effects
at
the
very
least
visible.
However,
I
feel
like
with
dows.
It
reminds
me
of
eo
wilson.
You
know
our
tragedy
is
that
we
have
planetary
emotions,
medieval
institutions
and
god-like
technology
like
we're
not
fast
enough
to
to
catch
up,
and
the
human
side
of
things
just
create
those
runaway
effects.
F
However,
I
believe,
because
the
context
of
token
engineering
common
is
this:
hey
we're
testing
this
out,
we're
starting
with
testing
the
common
stack.
It's
called
iteration
zero.
You
can
also
stumble
upon
that
in
one
hive,
for
example.
So
we
are
the
first
community
is
to
say:
let's,
let's
take
this
for
a
ride,
for
example,
I
don't
know
if
any
one
of
you
ever
wondered.
You
know
why
are
we
so
keen
on
participating
having
everyone's
participation
and
deciding
parameters,
but
we
decided
that
we're
going
to
use
an
augmented
bonding
curve.
F
Feedback
loops
are
important
and
I
believe
in
the
common
stack
in
in
the
vision
of
common
stack.
It's
a
big
part
of
the
puzzle
piece
as
well.
There
are
like
these
puzzle
pieces
right,
but
it's
not
yet
implemented.
So
I
would
add
to
what
jeremy
points
out
is.
F
How
do
we
make
clear
you
know
if
this
is
an
experiment
and
that
that
goes
into
ethics
of
experimentation?
F
How
do
we
make
clear
that
you
know
people
are
riding
a
car
with
the
engines
are
still
being
worked
on
and
maybe
some
safety
belts
aren't
even
in
the
car
and
so
on.
F
D
The
thing
I
was
gonna
say
was
what,
following
up
with
what
jeremy,
I'm
I'm
constantly
reminded
of
of
the
six
sigma
idea
of
the
hidden
factory
there's
this
idea
that
you
know
you
built
this
factory
and
then
you
put
a
human
being
inside
of
it
and
then
suddenly
realize
that
the
human
being
who's
dealing
with
this
has
to
come
up
with
their
own
little
hidden
factory
inside
of
it,
because
there
was
some
process
that
you
forgot
about
and.
E
D
And
so,
like
you
know,
if
it's
like
you
know,
we're
stamping
metal,
you
know
and
you've
you've
accounted
for
the
fact
that
that
there
are
these
waste
products
that
come
out,
but
then
there's
a
lot
of
dust
like
metal
dust
that
has
to
take
place,
so
they
have
to
create
their
own
process
for
cleaning
up
all
the
metal
dust,
which
then
also
invades
the
machine.
D
D
Awareness
would
would
help
in
terms
of
identifying
you
know
hidden
factories,
and
I
I
feel
like
what
I'm
kind
of
trying
to
do
is
take
a
look
at
the
psychosocial
nature
of
the
hidden
factories
and
that's
part
of
the
reason
why
I'm
so
excited
to
just
sort
of
see
what
jeremy
and
bring
into
the
bring
into
the
picture,
with
liberating
structure.
F
So
how
could
does
those
hidden
factories
or
those
that
could
be
applied
in
maybe
the
practical
part
of
this
research
like
when
we're
so
would
would
that
framework
or
practice
help
us
see
what
are
the
hidden
factories.
D
Within
our
experimentation,
if
you
look
at
the
hidden
factory
thing
called
tris,
which
basically
sort
of.
D
Is
like
a
proactive
version
of
looking
for
hidden
factories
right,
so
so
yeah.
So
that's
a
that's
a
thing
that
you
could
use
and
I
think
I
might
have
I
mean
I've
got
the
cards
here,
but
there's
a
pdf
you
can
download
from
liberatingstructures.com.
D
You
know
so
that
that
could
we
could
have
a
whole
meeting
using
triz
and
maybe
jeremy
would
be
kind
enough
to.
You
know
lead
us
through
that.
But
anyway,
that's
my
thought
as
a
practical
way.
D
E
And
I
think
to
maybe
put
a
punctuation
on
that.
The
the
invitation
is
very
much
to
is
mostly
about
the
recognition
that
these
that
this
concept
exists,
this
hidden
factory
this
this
unexpected
consequence
exists.
So
how
can
we
be
proactive
in
searching
for
them
more
so
than
you
know
any
particular
intervention?
It's
just
like
hey,
you
know.
C
Yeah
I'd
say:
that's:
we
have
to
be
very
careful
about
the
all
these
ceteris
paribus
that
are
lurking
around
the
corner,
and
I
mean
I
think
you
soul
system
mentioned
the
what
is
being
left
out,
and
I
don't
know
what
this
hidden
factories
framework
is
about,
but
I
guess
it's
trying
to
get
the
same
thing.
Basically,
I
think
that
it
seems
to
me,
like
this
way
of
framing
things
is
a
bit
to
behaviorist
it.
C
It
doesn't
in
incorporate
internality
in
terms
of
the
agents,
for
example,
their
intentions,
their
agency,
how
they
do
they
perceive
things
their
experience,
so
an
aspect
of
qualitative
research
of
and
a
phenological
framework,
that's
good
that
could
be
incorporated
with
all
of
the
rest,
I
think,
would
set
some
light
to
all
these
aspects
of
internality.
C
That
are
missing
from
these
agent
system,
duality
that
they
see
here.
F
So
I
think
that's
the
main
group
that
the
the
main
focus
or
why
we're
here
is
exactly
to
make
space
for
for
that,
the
the
the
self,
basically,
the
agent's
participation
and
focus
groups
could
do
one
part,
and
I
do
believe
that
especially
the
facilitation
techniques
that
durga
does
and
also
jeremy
bring
in,
can
help
us
to
create
those
spaces
where
agents.
F
If
you
will
like
us,
our
participants
can
freely
speak,
but
also
in
a
way
that
the
structure
that
we
see
or
we
can
talk
about
those
internal
drives
motivations
state
of
being.
If
you
will
but
yeah.
C
C
But
I
mean
it
is
based
on
all
this
framework
of
systems
thinking
and
it
models
stuff
dynamically
through
dynamical
system
still
reaches.
So
I
mean
it
is
all
about
some
basic
forms
of
interactions
that
still
are
externalist
in
a
sense
they
they
don't
take
into
account
factors
that
have
to
do
with
the
self-organization
and
the
internal
milieu
of.
C
Of
of
agents,
as
organisms
like
it
is
the
biological
nature
of
that
is
missing,
like
from
the
whole
tech
thing.
I
think,
but
this
is
another
issue,
but
we
don't
have
to
bring
open
this
whole
pandora
box
right
here
now,
but
it
would
be
good
to
just
start
thinking.
I
About
it,
I
just
I
just.
D
Have
a
quibble
in
the
definition
aspect,
it
sounds
to
me,
like
you're,
saying
biological
system,
biological
systems
and
systems
thinking
at
the
same
in
the
same
breath,
and
I
would
say
that
a
biological
system
is
a
is
the
very
definition
of
a
complex
system
that
is
and
the
way
that
I
would
typically
talk
about
a
you
know.
Systems
thinking
would
be.
D
You
know
like
things
that
are
using
governing
constraints,
a
la
confident,
whereas,
whereas
a
biological
system
is
more
complex,
therefore
we
have
more
like
enabling
constraints
versus
you
know,
governing
constraints
or
the
combination
of
both
of
those
together.
That
makes
makes
more
sense
in
a
biological
setup.
So
I
just
you
know
I
just
want
to
make
sure
that
people
aren't
hearing
governing
bounded.
You
know
stuff
when
we're
talking
about
a
biological
system,
or
is
it
that
you're
saying
that
we
should?
D
C
Yeah
this
is
it's
actually
a
very
good
concern
that
you're
raising
here
yeah
I
mean
it
is.
It
is
about
framing
things.
It's
about
different
way
of
modeling
things.
H
C
Although
by
biological
modeling
is
often
often
adopts
a
systemic
thinking,
a
systems
thinking
perspective,
like
the
the
modeling
itself
and
the
way
that
things
are
framed
can
still
be
very
disembodied,
very
non-situational,
very
abstract.
C
A
A
A
I
totally
agree
with
it.
So
there's
inner
component,
but,
like
probably
my
pot
because
of
my
political
position,
I
tend
to
argue
that
structures
are
more
definitive
than
let's
say
most
of
the
time
than
some
other
parameters.
But
of
course
I
acknowledge
that,
like
your
identity
or
where
you
grow
up,
etc
totally
affects
how
you
engage
with
the
structure,
for
example,
in
this
research
while
we
are
talking
about.
Maybe
we
can
even
talk
about
how
the
cultural
approach
is
affecting
our
engagement
with
the
structures.
A
For
example,
like
I
I
remember,
I
was
watching
reward
system,
video
of
a
token
engineering
academy,
like
this
nine
hour
long
all
day
long.
So
one
of
the
speakers
were
talking
about
how
the
dif
people
from
different
culture
were
preferred
to
get
paid.
So
he
was.
He
was
mentioning
that
people
from
global
south,
like
turkey,
sudden
arabia
etc,
were
preferring
set
payments
and
people
from
like
western
europe,
etc.
A
Preferring
more
bounty
based
and
task
based
payments
like
he
did
the
research
on
this
so,
for
example,
of
course,
structure
for
example,
task
based
structure
may
cause
stress
and
some
unintended
moral
behaviors
for
some
cultures,
but
for
some
it
may
cause
more
work
and
extra
effort
and
extra
incentivization.
A
F
Sorry,
I
need
to
jump
in
because
everything
you
mentioned
is
not
internal,
it's
still
external,
it's
culture,
society
and
so
on,
and
when
I
hear
onipaf
saying
disembodied,
I
think
he
really
wants
to
go
into
that
really.
The
inner
capacity.
F
Yeah,
or
or
even
more,
into
the
spiritual
path-
maybe
I
don't
know
I'm
having
difficulties
with
spiritual
because
that's
also
very
new
ag,
but
there
is
really
I'll
share
something
from
nora
bates
later
on,
and
one
thing
is
really
the
framing
of
things:
it's
it's
a
really
nice
article
about
wave
finding
or
it's
called
wave
finding
and
she
said
well
see,
tragedy
and
common
of
commons
and
such
actually
also
eleanor
ostrom
makes
fun
of
that
thing.
F
What
that
you
just
come
up
with
with
this
idea
of
tragedy
of
comment-
and
he
goes
like
hey,
imagine,
you're
gonna,
you
know
die,
and
you
know
you
have
to
make
tough
decisions
and
who,
who
shall
die,
so
someone
else
can
survive
or
who,
who
should
be
surviving
and
nora.
Bates
makes
the
same
example
like
like.
If
you
pre
frame
things
like
okay,
everyone
is
going
to
die,
you
know,
and
you
have
to
make
a
decision.
There's
only
one
10
10
places
in
this
boat
who
shall
die,
decide
now
like
then.
F
F
You
know
who
says
that
you
know
these
boats
and
these
10
places
are
the
only
solution,
and
I
think
that
type
of
capacity
that
you
can
break
always
as
a
human
being
you
have
that
capacity.
You
can
always
break
free
from
whatever
external
paradigms
learning
have
been
put
on
you,
and
also
from
this
perspective,
like
you
identify,
for
example,
might
with
your
education,
your
political
views,
and
I
can
relate
to
that
very
much
because
coming
into
token
engineering
I
was
totally
about
you-
know,
data
driven.
F
I
even
didn't
like
very
much
the
systems,
thinking
approach
that
opened
me
a
little
bit,
but
now
I
definitely
see
that
we
are
acting
as
if
you
know
we're
just
rational
agent
and
if
we
have
only
enough
information
we're
going
to
act
rationally,
but
we
just
forget
that
many
of
these
frameworks
are
given
from
a
very
s
constricted
mindset
and
we
don't
have
to
take
those
as
as
a
given,
and
there
is
definitely
this
new
move.
F
I
wouldn't
say
movement,
but
another
level
of
perspective
that
is
opening
up
where
people
really
question
how
they
make
decisions
from
what
place
like
yeah.
So
I
think
really
two
things
that
should
or
I
would
like
to
also
explore
as
this
behaviorist
secondarian
token
economy.
I
think
it's
a
really
funny
example
of
institutionalized
humans
and
we're
basically
trying
to
institutionalize
ourselves.
F
You
know
it's
not
the
only
way
forward
or
you
know,
knowing
that
our
tools
suck,
maybe
we
shouldn't
just
obey
those
machines,
yet
sorry,
I'm
going
to
to
too
far,
but
I
just
want
to
so
this
behaviorist
part.
I
I
definitely
resonate
and
there's
a
lot
of
food
for
thought
and
and
dialogue
there.
The
second
part
is
about
how
we
frame
things.
We
are
very
much
conditioned
about
framing
things
coming
from
yeah
an
educated,
school
approach.
F
So
there
is
this
thing
that
we
need
to
shed
from
that.
We
come
from
an
industrial
era,
education
that
has
a
mechanistic
view
and
also
you
know,
yeah.
If
you
really
question,
for
example,
trends
world
of
view,
you
will
also
see
very
mechanistic
and
I'm
really
hoping
that
we
will
question
our
own
world
because
it's
really
fun
and
liberating.
F
Actually,
when
you
find
when
you
actually
can
see
from
outside
your
world
view
all
of
a
sudden,
you
know
another
level
opens
up
and
the
second,
the
third
part
really
the
again
it's
a
very
personal
experience,
but
maybe
many
other
people
can
relate.
F
You
know
if
you're
in
in
this
overachieving
careers
paths
or
coming
from
that,
maybe
you're
not,
but
it
is
very
easy
to
be
in
your
mind,
to
solve
problems
all
the
time
60
hours
a
week
and
all
of
a
sudden
everything
becomes
this
mechanical
thing
that
you
just
need
to
push
in
the
right
places
and
it
does
things
and
especially
if
you
work
with
computers,
you
are
disembodied,
you
know
you
and
and
that,
if
that
changes
again,
it
opens
up
really
new
capabilities.
F
F
A
Just
want
to
say
one
thing
I
understand
they
think
very
wrongly.
Thanks
for
clarifying,
I
was
thinking
more
about
structure
versus
cultural
kind
of
paradigm,
but
I
didn't
know
those
stuff
very
well
like
I
haven't
read
comprehensively
or
anything
probably
so
I
would
love
to
read.
Please
share
those
things
like
it
will
be
super
cool
to
discuss
how
those
like
cognitive
liberation
occur
and
how
those
like
inner
neurological,
even
more
kind
of.
F
Or
maybe
you
know
if
it,
because
you
also
want
to
have
a
focus
of
research
right.
You
want
to
kind
of
say:
okay
in
three
months,
you
will
come
out
at
the
end
with
something
I
I
see
that
you
know
this
last
part
may
may
a
it
has
to
be
more
experiential
in
any
case,
so
it
just
relates,
and
I
just
take
note
of
it,
but
it's
okay.
We
can
take
it
to
a
separate
or
to
more
practical
domain.
F
Yeah,
it
doesn't
have
to
be
part
of
this
research
project
that
you're
proposing
so
because
you
need
to
keep
keep
it
somehow
manageable.
F
Also,
it's
a
big
huge
research
question.
I
don't
know
if
only
path
you
have
some
ideas
or,
but
for
me
it's
more
like
how
do
we
even
form
a
research
question
around
that
later
part.
C
They're
the
dergados
had
his
hand
open
for
a
while.
So
I
just
noticed
so
I'll
answer
to
that
after
after
that.
D
Yeah,
I
would
say
that
you
know
the
places
where
the
the
complex
and
the
where
mental
models
intersect
is.
My
is
my
particular
interest,
so
I'd.
D
To
share
with
you
some
research
that
I'm
doing
in
terms
of
so
I'm
creating
this
graphic,
which
is
huge
because
it
has
an
awful
lot
of
things
to
talk
about
in
it.
So,
but
part
of
the
thing
to
understand
is
that
is
that
this
is
true
right.
So
all
these
things
that
we're
talking
about
are
bounded
in
this
metia
sort
of
thing,
but
the
what
you
can
see
in
here
is
that
that,
if
you
have
you
know
six
different
people
looking.
H
D
H
D
We
kind
of
understand
how
to
how
to
transcend
it
include
a
given
framing.
You
know
what
I'm
saying
from
from
a
skill
perspective.
I
think
especially
for
us.
D
If
we're
talking
about
ethics,
we
have
to
be
able
to
say:
okay,
there's
this
bounded
systems
frame
here,
which
always
kind
of
results
in
either
or
and
then
I
need
to
be
able
to
pull
myself
up
out
of
that
and
recognize
that
as
a
whole
unto
itself,
and
then
I
need
to
be
able
to
move
over
and
shift
to
perhaps
a
different
mental
model,
or
that's
part
of
the
reason
why
I
like
liberating
structures,
because
I'm
kind
of
a
reflexive
reframer
do
you
know
what
I
mean
and
what
I
love
about.
H
D
D
Concept
is
that
it
does
exactly
that
is.
It's
gives
you
ways
of
trans
occlusion
right
because
of
the
fact
that
all
of
these
answers
and
framings
are
arbitrary
and
they're
only
real
inside
the
given
framing
we.
This
is
a
thing
I
think
we
need
to
understand
is
the
ground
substance
of
all
the
things
that
we're
going
to
create
here.
That's.
D
This
larger
graphic
to
make
sure
that
people
understood
that
there
is
this
concept
of
dependent
origination
and
to
understand
that
the
reason
why
you
develop
the
habit
of
transclusion
and
pulling
yourself
up
out
of
bounded
context
is
because
it
more
accurately
represents
the
the
reality
which
is
not
not
able
to
be
defined.
But
it's
able
to
be
experienced,
which
is
what
you
were
kind
of
mentioning
earlier,
which
is
it's.
There
has
to
be
an
experiential
component
to
it
right.
So,
if
we're
going
to.
H
D
Both
sides
of
that
picture,
we
need
to
understand
that
there
are
things
we
can
talk
about
and
there
are
things
that
we
can
experience
and
we
cannot
make
those
two
things
go
together
perfectly,
regardless,
it's
just
structural
to
the
nature
of
the
way
we
talk
about
things,
that's
first
of
all.
Second,.
H
D
All
there
are
narrative
structures
that
can
help
you
to
understand
things
like
what
you
were
talking
about,
which
is
I'm
all
the
time
talking
about
the
the
pendulum
between
the
self
and
the
consciousness,
which
then
interacts
with
the
cultural
worldview,
which
then
creates
a
social
system
which
then
ping-pongs
back
to
re-affect
the
world
view
and
the
culture
and
the
individuals
participating
in
that
culture
right.
So
when
we
were
talking
before
about
you
know,.
D
D
H
D
Uniquely
and
so
it's
going
to
go
back
and
forth
and
defending
continuing
on
my
own
development,
depending
on
the
development
of
the
culture
and
worldview
I'm
interacting
with
and
depending
on
the
culture
and
world
view
of
the
social
system
and
environment,
that
those
are
all
going
to
have
differing
kinds
of
effects
on
me.
And
this
is.
F
Actually,
actually,
we
have
a
story
that
relates
to
token
engineering
comments.
E
F
I
would
like
to
and
ask
you
know
the
the
new
ones
how
they
see
it.
You
know
now
you
come
in
and
there
is
this
working
group
omega
talks
about.
You
know
more
than
yeah
more
than
the
things
that
you
might
have
expected.
When
you
hear
token
engineering
and
actually,
when
token
engineering
commons
started
literally
there
was
a
clash.
F
I
again
I
can
speak
personal,
but
I
think
that
was
really
also
cultural
clash
because
most
of
us
are
and
where,
in
the
scientific,
rational
realm.
Let's
put
it
that
way
right
and
I
I
felt
really
that
token
entering
commons,
especially
the
people,
griff
livia
and
so
on,
jessica.
What
a
wonderful
soul
right
see,
definitely
green.
F
You
know
value
communities
and-
and
we
were
like-
oh
as
I
mentioned,
like
model
data
driven,
you
know,
but
roughly
already
understanding
that
you
don't
want
to
be
someone
who
makes
people
do
things
if
you
don't
know
whether
that's
legitimate-
and
you
know
that
was
this
big
questioning
arising.
People
understand
that
this
is
a
real,
powerful
technology
called
bike
technology
and
we
don't
have
faculties,
and
it
was,
for
example,
personal,
really
big
questions
arising
and
that's
when
douglas
literally
fell
onto
the
discord
server.
F
With
this
wonderful
introduction,
you
know,
as
it
goes
and
by
the
way
you
know
I'm
autistic
and
it
was
so
refreshing
and
also
in
the
same
introduction.
He
was
actually
introducing
already.
All
of
this.
You
know
fountain
of
knowledge
and
that's
also
how
how
the
whole
philosophy
token
during
philosophy
started,
and
why
working
group
omega
is
here,
and
this
four
quadrants
is
something
that
has
also
shaped
the
working
group
until
now.
So
we
could
add,
add
this
especially
when
we
are.
F
You
know,
thinking
about
contextual
ethics,
token,
engineering,
and
then
we
want
to
take
tokens
in
comments
as
as
a
case
study,
for
example.
So
we
do
have
definitely
that
linkage
in
here.
I
don't
know
if
I
saw
that
cielo
is
also
an
interesting
community.
F
Moving
beyond
our
medieval
institutions
and
potentiologic
emotions
kind
of
yeah
just
wanted
to
make
that
point
actually.
F
Because
the
the
token
economy,
and
also
how
we
describe
token
engineering
at
first
like
make
people
do
things
behave,
it
is
very
behaviorist.
G
Yeah,
if
we
talk
about
humans-
and
things
like
I
understand
with
my
limited
knowledge
of
like
bf
skinner,
it's
like
applying
animal
experiments
with
the
presupposition
it
could
work
on
humans
if
it
works
for
pigeons
or
rats
or
dogs.
It's
quite
a
radical
approach.
To
I
mean
like
I
can
behave
as
a
dog
if
I
want
to,
but
it's
quite
rich
to
take
as
an
addict.
D
It's
it's
my
perception
that
skinner
is.
D
What
do
you
want
to
say
it's
a
bit
of
a
old
kind
of
approach
to
things
like
he
opened
up
a
certain
line
of
inquiry,
but
I
don't
and
that
line
of
inquiry
was
very
much
in
the
industrialized
way
of
thinking.
Do
you
know
what
I'm.
H
D
Yeah
and-
and
there
was
a
bunch
of
people
that
built
on
top
of
that
even
this
model,
I
think,
would
say
it's
built
on
top
of
things
like
the
old,
the
old
school
skinner
and
maslow
and
the
like
right
but
yeah,
you
know
it
kind
of
goes.
Basically
what
what
it's
trying
to
do
is.
This
is
basically
a
theory
of
everything
right.
D
The
whole
idea
that
we
can
take
all
of
human
experience
and
and
put
it
into
a
relatively
simple
graphic,
is
this
sort
of
you
know
idea,
and
just
you
know
it's
important,
I
think
to
just
recognize.
There
are
a
lot
of
a
lot
of
narratives
just
packed
into
this.
You
know
I
mean
like,
like
literally
you
know
the
most
packed
thing
you'll
ever
see.
Probably
you
know
like
all
of
human.
C
F
To,
unfortunately,
we're
coming
too
fast
to
close
again
and
so
that
we
say
how
we
go
about
this
research
topic
now,
this
research
topic
definitely
might
fundamental,
and
if
you
could
show
your
slides
again,.
F
F
And
in
the
meantime,
is
there
any
more
addition,
something
we
shouldn't
forget
that
or
someone
who
would
want
to
participate
with
a
concrete
perspective.
H
F
H
Hard
to
follow
the
conversation,
because
you
guys
are
it's
just
I've,
never
haven't
been
in
a
conversation
like
this
in
a
very
long
time,
but
just
from
the
from
looking
trying
to
kind
of
soak
it
up
going
to
the
whole
skinner
thing
and
this
research,
it
really
seems
like
there's.
H
There
might
be
some
value
in
looking
at
this
from
us
a
skinner
way
and
that
the
the
token
I
don't
know
I
think,
of
tokenomics
and
I'm
not
an
expert
by
any
means,
but
just
from
my
very
limited
understanding,
just
when
you're
developing
any
system,
the
whoever
designs,
the
system
is
going
to
look
for
some
kind
of
output
right
or
for
something,
that's
some
kind
of
outcomes.
H
And
that's
how
you
that's,
how
you
start
and
that's
how
you
build
your
system
with
a
plan
that
something
that
you're
expecting
to
happen
is
going
to
happen.
I
think,
with
the
volcker
example.
H
The
same
thing
I
imagine,
volcker
had
some
kind
of
intention
when
they
did
that
that
the
the
central
planning
agencies,
you
know
jacked
up
interest
rates
and
they
expected
some
kind
of
outcome,
whether
they
got
what
they
wanted
or
not.
You
know
I
don't
I
don't
know
they
did,
did
get
results,
so
it
seems
like
like
this
whole
thing
needs
to
be
kind
of
looked
at
from
two
different.
F
H
Oh,
no,
no,
no
problem
and
feel
free
to
stop
me.
If
I'm
rambling,
I
I
I
love
the
sound
of
my
own
voice,
a
little
bit
too
much,
but
the
so
just
from
you
know.
I
don't
know
that.
I
really
understand
the
whole
research
that
you're
proposing
to
tell
you
the
truth,
but
so,
if
you're,
it
seems
like
you
would
want
to
pick
some
kind
of
thing
to
do.
Some
research
on
a
system,
some
kind
of
tokenomics
example
and
and
try
to
figure
out
this
is
I
mean.
H
Hopefully
you
would
know
what
the
intentions
were
and
what
the
outcomes
were
and
then
if
they
were
different,
that's
when
all
of
this
other
part
would
come
in
of
of
what
were
the
agents
what
was
going
on
within
inside
the
agents.
You
know
internal,
what
were
the
internal
incentives.
H
Incentives
that
the
agents
were
reacting
to
that
the
systems-
designers,
weren't
and
you
know
on
a
large
scale.
I
guess
you
could
you
could
parse
it
out
to
to
different
cultures.
You
know,
like
someone
was
saying
about
different
parts
of
europe.
You
know
eastern
europe
or
western
europe,
how
they
they
react
differently
to
different
types
of
incentives
or
pay
structures.
H
F
F
And
basically,
just
to
take
you
on
upon
that
is
yeah
the
case
that
is
as
march.
You
say
we
could
have
case
studies.
I
think
the
easiest
case
study
would
be
talking
engineering
comments.
Do
you
have?
Does
anyone
have
also
other
groups
or
other
communities
from
which
they
hope
or
believe
they
could
get
some
inside.
C
F
So
I
think
I
don't
know
it
should
be
that
you
should
have
access
to
you
know
five
or
six
people
who
would
want
to
participate
in
exchanging
their
experience,
so
we
get
to
the
qualitative
parts
as
well.
C
F
G
C
A
So
I
would
like
to
let
this
as
part
of
the
research
groups,
accountability
task.
We
will
conduct
this
research
project.
F
Yes,
yes,
I
mean,
and
that
we
make
time
and
space
for
this
in
the
working
group
makes
total
sense.
It
gives
us
more
food
for
thought
or
food
for
conducting
focus
groups.
I
really
like
it
the
only
thing,
the
the
top
that
the
rethinking
token
engineering
parameters.
F
You
know
no,
no
mutiny,
no.
F
No
thanks
so
much
for
preparing
it.
It
really
helped
focus
the
conversation,
that's
really
cool
and
yes,
and
if
you
go
quickly
to
page
six
to
slide
six
yeah
and
it
is
perfect
call
for
the
working
group
omega
to
really
think
about
what
we
have
written
like.
Can
we
contextualize
ethics
and
really
contextualizing
token
engine
comments?
F
Meaning
do
we
know
the
context
of
token
engineering
and
that
type
of
work
might
be
actually
super
super
useful
and
interesting
for
yeah
anyone
interested
in
in
token
engineering,
commons,
history
and
and
maybe
another
source
of
onboarding
people
giving
them
more
context
right.
So
I
I
really
look
forward
to
this.
I
think
this
is
going
to
be
super
super
useful
also
beyond
our
working
group
omega.
So
thanks
so
much
matt.
F
And
yeah,
I
think
the
ones
who
who
participated
lively
will
also
be
the
supporters.
Dugada
said
to
leave,
I
see
but
yeah.
Definitely
I'm
sure
of
that.