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From YouTube: 0Mega - WG Proposal Discussion: Intrinsic motivation
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A
The
prison
guards
ended
up
really
misusing
the
inmates,
and
actually
everything
was
set
up
as
a
game,
and
everyone
knows
they
were
part
of
a
game
and
but
these
people,
all
of
a
sudden,
started
the
the
guards
started,
misusing
their
power
and
everything
and
at
the
end,
the
trial
or
this
research
says
it's
not
because
those
prison
guards
were
bad
people.
You
know
they
were
randomly
selected,
but
it
was
the
environment
in
which
they
and
the
rules
in
which
they
operated.
A
So
just
a
note
to
to
myself
as
well,
I
think
those
two
things
plus
the
environment.
A
And
the
question
would
be:
what
how
do
we
discern
environment
in
global
communities
like
token
engineering
we're
not
even
a
project
delivering
a
thing,
but
a
community
of
token
engineers
who
yeah,
who
wants
to
figure
out
find
their
ethos
so
like?
But
how
did
you
do
it
with
the
dada
community,
for
example?
Did
you
stumble
upon
upon
it,
or
did
you
ask
people
or
what
would
you
recommend
when
we
start
by
asking
people,
do
you
know.
B
C
Like
it's
a
contrary
to
user,
whatever
design
I
and
after
all
these
years
with
data,
if
you
think
about
it,
it's
just
so
obvious
that
no
matter
like
you,
I
saw
my
design
team
a
couple
of
years
ago,
like
doing
all
these
like
surveys
and
talking
to
people,
collectors
and
data
artists,
but
they
didn't
search
for
another
important
platform.
C
Although
we
had
a
weekly
drawing
and
everything
as
team,
they
were
not
really
part
of
it.
So
you're
trying
to
understand
something
from
the
outside.
No
matter
what
your
intentions
or
your
your,
you
know
how
much
you
want
to
understand
it.
You
cannot
understand
that
until
you
experience
it
so
for
me,
there's
a
huge
difference
between
asking
users
what
they
want
or
how
they
feel
and
leaving
myself
the
experience
with
people
that
I
actually
have
developed
strong
bonds
with
it's
a
huge
difference.
I
don't
need
to
ask
anything.
C
I
know
I
just
I
just
feel
it
and
they
right,
they
feel
it.
They
know
it
so
when,
when
we
had,
when
the
community
started
consolidating-
and
we
still
had
those
intrinsic
extrinsic
things
like
we
had,
we
still
have
them
actually
badges
and
and
a
leaderboard
that
is
somewhere
buried.
C
There
was
a
granting,
for
instance,
and
because
they
understood
intuitively
that
data
was
not
about
extrinsic.
Anything.
One
of
the
artists
said
like
hey.
We
should
take
out
the
ranking
because
that's
gonna,
you
know
that
makes
people
feel
you
know
competitive
and,
like
some
people
are
saying,
like
some,
you
know
these
are
in
the
top
and
these
are
and
it
just.
It
was
just
common
sense
right.
So
we
took
it
out.
C
There
was
somebody
who
said
that
we
should
take
care
of
the
likes
and
we
haven't
yet
because
you
know
just
but
her
argument
was
if
I
noticed
that
when
I
make
drawings
and
the
drawings
are,
I
think,
they're.
You
know
very
interesting.
C
There
are
very
few
likes
and
if
I
draw
something
like
it's
a
pop
culture
thing,
there
are
tons
of
light
and
that's
very
misleading
so
because
you
know
that
makes
people
wanted
to
do
the
things
that
they
were
going
to
get
likes.
C
So
so
you
notice
these
things,
because
your
experience
is
going
to
counter
those
values,
and
so
I
think
that's
why
experience
is
important
to
keep
the
compass
of
of
of
what
you
want
to
do.
If
that
that's
the
reason
why
we
don't
have
any
rules
written
or
any
constitution,
we
won't
have
any
constitution,
we
don't
need
it.
We
just
need
to
to
be
aligned
in
the
same
mindset.
B
I
mean
I'm
thinking
of
all
of
these
projects
that
that
I
see
of
people
wanting
to
create
tokens
for
indigenous
communities
and
this
certainly
after
the
talk
with
harold
in
colonel
right,
unless
they're
embedded
in
those
communities,
I
can't
see
how
it's
gonna.
You
know
it's
it's
like!
Oh
here
look.
I
have
this
wonderful
solution
that
I'm
gonna
give
you
and
you
know,
that's
really
offensive
to
those
communities.
You
think
that
you're
trying
to
help
them,
but
but
you're,
really
not,
and
that
that
I
think,
needs
to
be
highlighted.
Somehow.
C
But
I
also
think
it
gets
even
more
insidious
I
think
than
that,
because
they
may
think
that
that's
what
they
want,
and
that
is
the
tricky
tricky
part.
So
I'll
give
you
an
example.
I
don't
know
if
you
are
familiar
with
behance,
which
is
the
this
like
portfolio
website
same
for
artists
and
designers
and
so
on.
C
That
was
a
big
thing
10
years
ago.
So
there
was
nothing
like
that
and-
and
it
was
a
very
good
resource
for
you
know-
for
people
to
don't
have
to
do
their
own
website,
then
you
could
just
be
there
in
that
platform
and
everybody
will
find
you.
But
what
I
was.
What
was
interesting
to
me
is
that
the
guy
scott
belski,
who
founded
bihan
it
was
this
guy
from
stanford,
no,
that
creative
at
all,
and
he
was
somebody
who
asked
his
own.
C
If
you
see
his
videos,
he
I
mean
I
find
it
just
so
offensive,
but
I
guess
it
made
sense
for
it
for
him
and
for
a
bunch
of
artists,
but
his
thing
was
that
he
had
been
studying
creative
people
and
artists,
like
that,
you
know,
as
as
how
you
study
indigenous
people
or
you
study
and.
C
It
makes
sense,
because
artists
need
to
hook
up
to
companies
who
are
hiring
artists
and
corporations
who
are
hiring
artists
and
advertising
agencies
where
it
makes
sense,
and
that
is
a
good
resource
for
that.
But
is
that
what
artists
need
artists
only
need
that
because
they
need
work
to
eat.
But
that
is
not
nothing
to
do
with
creativity.
C
That's
nothing
to
do
with
what
artists
really
want,
and
so
when,
when
we
think
about
things
like
indigenous
people
like
they
may
want
that
they
may
want
money
because
they
don't
have
money,
but
that's
not
necessarily
what
they
need
or
or
what
is
intrinsic
to
them
or
true
to
them.
We're
just
trying
to
bring
them
into
our
society
and
fit
here
as
opposed
to
understanding
them.
A
Interesting,
so
I
I
see
definitely
now
also
there
are
a
layer
and
a
second
layer,
as
always
with
cybernetics,
to
what
sparrow
said,
just
to
repeat
it,
so
no
taking
works
so
when
the
token
engineers
think
of
themselves,
as
algorithmic
policy
makers
like
they
can
have
this
mindset
of
a
system
modeler.
A
You
know
this
is
a
mechanic
thing
and
I
just
need
to
get
enough
information
and
I
can
model
it,
and
I
can
do
the
policy
that
can
do
mathematical,
modeling
system,
formal
verification
and
everything
is
going
to
be
perfect,
and
then
they
deploy
this
onto
a
world
of
humans
into
this
uncertainty
into
this
chaos
and
something
happens,
but
certainly
or
or
to
a
big
extent
and
not
what
they
thought.
This
model
will
do
and
it
could
even
cause
more
harm
if
it
was
super
rigid
without
feedback
groups
and
so
on
and
so
forth.
A
So
there
are
certainly
token
engineers
or
practitioners
who
think
that
way,
because
I
know
I
was,
however
the
whole.
You
know
foundations,
crypto
economics,
that
it
brings
really
also
the
social
sciences
into
the
mix
actually
should
enable
us
to
even
first
of
all
to
make
those
other
type
of
token
engineers.
A
We
assume,
though,
those
are
pretty
few
and
they
have
been
already
collected
in
or
or
came
together.
So
that's
why
I
see
in
concentric
circles
that
inside
we
have
this
new
realization
that
we
become,
or
we
are
algorithmic
policy
makers,
and
we
can
deal
with
that
reality
very
rationally
and
very
mechanistically
and
you
know,
get
get
get
an
insurance.
A
You
know
like
occupational,
insurance
and
stuff
like
this,
and
this
whole
token
engineering
community
might
become
that
ethos
right
or
be.
We
push
further
and
and
make
really
this
the
whole
of
crypto
economics
power,
especially
with
the
social
sciences
like
law
ethics,
psychology
decision
making
this
type
of
branches
that
they're
really
yeah,
that
they're
really
represented
and
feel
as
token
engineers.
A
B
I
think
that
leads
to
another
question,
perhaps
that
you
could
ask,
and
it
would
be
phrased
probably
something
like
if
this
system
that
you're
envisioning
is
wildly
successful
and
does
all
of
the
the
things
you
know
gives.
B
B
A
A
Actually
that
reminded
me
of
something
that
regis
one
of
the
new
members
also
says
like
that.
We
need
to
judge
technology
and
our
technological
capabilities
by
and
the
medium
sorry
the
medium
by
what
it
takes
away
from
human.
A
A
And
I
could
say
that
all
of
that
work
and
and
interacting
with
the
data
community
actually
helped
me
to
connect
back
to
my
intrinsic
motivations,
and
I
understand
that
those
cannot
be
asked.
But
from
from
your
experience
like,
for
example,
how
do
you
know
you're,
not
stereotyping,
or
how
do
you
know
that
you
found
those
you
picked,
those
intrinsic
motivation
intrinsic
needs.
A
How
do
you
know
or
yeah
like
imagine,
we
are
building
community
like
that's
something
that
you
say
well,
it
cannot
work.
You
have
to
have
the
community
first
and
then
think
about
tokenization,
etc.
But
there
were
a
point
where
you
started
off:
building
the
community.
A
Would
you
say
that
was
just
black
that
right
people
stick
is
stick
around
and
the
others
just
left,
or
did
you
already
now
had
this
ground
truth
of
intrinsic
motivations
that
you
knew
things
very
well
and
you
started
off
with
them
with
those.
C
So,
the
by
the
time
we
we
came
into
blockchain,
we,
the
the
community,
had
already
about
three
years
for
one
and
a
half
three
years,
so
it
was
very
clear
that
that
it
was,
I
mean
I
didn't
know
at
the
time.
I
wouldn't
call
it
intrinsic
motivations,
but
it
was
very
clear
that
it
was
a
community
where
people
felt
really
close
to
each
other,
that
we
built
trust
that
we
loved
each
other
that
somehow,
by
drawing
together,
we
were
creating
this
really
strong
bonds.
C
There
has
been
moments
of
conflict
very
few
and
those
moments
of
conflict
have
been
very,
very
subtle
and-
and
I
think
at
some
point-
we
should
discuss
that,
but
but
in
general
it's
completely
conflict-free,
and
so
when
we
got
into
blockchain
and
we
were
ready
getting
ready,
I
mean
we
launched
the
the
crypts
and
we
use
a
collection
in
2017,
and
then
we
we
ourselves
went
into
this
roller
coaster
of
nfts.
After
cryptokitties,
we
started
getting
a
lot
of
people
asking
how.
How
do
I
say
my?
How
do
I
sell
my
artwork?
C
How
and
we
were
at
the
same
time
preparing
to
launch
the
top
the
ico,
and
so
we
were
getting
on
one
side,
a
lot
of
people
asking
how
to
sell
their
art.
On
the
other
side,
a
lot
of
people
asking
how
to
get
into
the
token
cell-
and
it
just
didn't,
feel
right.
It
all
felt
wrong
in
so
many
levels
and
a
lot
of
our
artists
started
insane.
Even
you
know
feeling
that
these
people
are
coming
here.
They
don't
even
want
to
be
part
of
the
community.
They
just
want
to
sell
their
stuff.
C
It
felt
wrong.
A
lot
of
them
felt
that
they
didn't
want
to
be
part
of
it.
They
didn't
want
to
ask
them
to
go
into
blockchain
at
all,
because
it
was
for
them
destroying
the
experience
that
they
had,
and
so
it
was
very
clear
like
when
you
have
a
community.
That
is
that
whose
motivations
are
very
intrinsic.
C
It
just
feels
wrong
very
quickly.
So
I
remember
I
went
this
is
like
early
2018.
I
went
to
chile
and-
and
we
did
sort
of
a
reunion
there
with
artists
from
argentina,
chilean
peru
and
we
spent
a
whole
four
four
four
days
together
in
a
house.
Rented
a
house
cooked
together,
draw
together-
and
I
remember
interviewing
them
and
asking
them
because
they
were
all
all
against
this
whole
thing
our
buy.
C
C
What
if
we
know
what
if
we
do,
keep
in
and
no
no,
because
if
I
know
that
somebody
taped
me,
then
I'm
going
to
feel
that
I
have
to
no,
I
don't
want
any
of
that,
like
everything
was
no
until
I
will
ask,
but
can
you
imagine
if
we
could,
if
you
could
do
what
you
love
exactly
the
same
things
that
we're
doing
now,
what
we
love
on
data
and,
at
the
same
time,
receive
a
passive
income
for
that,
and
then
they
will
say
well.
That
would
be
amazing
and
so
from
there.
C
What
if
we
sell
this
or
that
or
that
too,
if
I
can
continue
to
do
what
I'm
doing
and
actually
live
about,
have
a
you'll
be
able
to
make
a
living
out
of
it.
That
would
be
amazing,
but
if
I
have
to
choose
between
all
these
things
that
are
gonna
take
away,
what
feels
amazing
then
no,
and
so
it
was
very.
It
was
very
easy
for
us,
because
the
community
is
a
compass
in
itself,
so
do.
A
Although
I
finished
okay,
so
do
artists,
have
you
know
how
do
they
call
it
an
advantage
like?
No
because
you
know,
as
you
said
typically,
you
know
if
you
would
ask
me
if
I
would
ask
myself
a
year
back,
why
am
I
in
this
token
engineering
community,
my
answers
would
be
very
mechanical
and,
and-
and
I
didn't
see
the
entirety
of
this
cryptoeconomics
flower
until
I
really
either
I
did
or
was
pushed
into
it.
A
I
don't
really
discern,
but
actually
to
ask
people
from
those
other
disciplines
what
they
see
and
what
they
bring
into
tokyo
engineering.
A
Only
then
it
opened
up
a
lot
and
then
again,
like
this
super
intense
experience
with
invisible
economy
and
with
you
that
a
lot
of
things
started
clicking,
and
it
was
really
what
I
call
da
epiphany
like
things
that
are
actually
natural
that
but
somehow
forgotten.
C
It's
not
artists
is
that
these
particular
artists
that
I'm
referring
to
are
artists
that
are
outside
the
system.
They
don't
have
a
regular
job,
they
may
teach
here
and
there
they
may
not
be
artists
at
all.
They
may
be
something
else,
and
that
is,
I
think,
the
difference,
because
if
we
will
have
had
crypto
artists
that
what
you
see
in
the
crypto
area
ecosystem
as
part
of
data,
the
answer
will
have
been
completely
different.
They
will
have
said
yeah,
let's
go
and
sell
a
lot
of
nfts
and
blah
blah
right,
so
it
is.
C
How
close
I
mean
if
you,
if
you
think
about
research,
what
somebody
like
dan
ariely
would
say
is
like
the
closer
you
are
to
the
market,
the
least
connected
you
are
to
your
intrinsic
motivations,
because
you're
acting
within
market
norms,
the
farther
you
are
from
the
market,
the
closer
you
are
to
you
due
to
social
norms,
and
I
think
a
very
explicit
example
of
this
is
that
people
tend
to
think
that
collectors
are
more
extrinsically
motivated
and
artists
are
always
intrinsic
intrinsically
motivated.
C
But
there
was
this
study
on
the
our
market
in
new
york
and
and
london
that
in
which
the
researcher
found
that
people
who
were
closer
to
the
day-to-day
dealings
of
the
market,
like
curators
galleries,
artists
were
less.
They
didn't
care
about
the
transcendental
thing
about
art
right
because
they
were
in
the
late
dealings,
while
collectors
who,
who
just
collected
by
intrinsic
rewards,
were
really
worried
about
the
transcendental
aspects
of
art
that
were
being
corrupted
by
the
market,
and
so
it
really
doesn't
have
to
it's.
Not
that's.
C
I
could,
and
I
have
been,
that
in
cold,
rational
investor,
as
well
as
the
the
in
the
artists
that
I'm
in
front
of
you
today,
so
we
can
all
fit
in
all
these
different
aspects
if
it
makes
sense
to
us
and
if
and
if,
if
that's
what
we
need
to
do
to
play
within
an
environment.
B
E
D
D
You
know
the
outcomes
of
the
system,
but
we
don't
really
have
you
know
we
haven't
defined
or
or
really
discussed,
and
I
think
that's
what's
so
exciting
about
this
collective
and
this
group
is
all
of
these
ideas,
just
bringing
the
awareness
to
it.
D
As
we
are
in
this
like
seed
layer
of
development
to
say
we
are
choosing
the
paradigms
that
we
want
to
operate
in
and
the
more
consciously
that
we
can
do
that
and
we
can
choose
which
economies
we
want
to
participate
in.
So
there's
the
spectrum
between
the
quantitative
and
the
leaderboards
and
then
the
other
end.
You
know
the
spectrum,
but
also
being
aware
that
you
know
it
doesn't
have.
We
can
find
ways,
maybe
that
it's
not
so
polarized
and
also
like
science,
is
so
kind
of
polarized
from
intuition.
D
And
zero
mixed
like
so,
I
think
and
yeah
I
mean
we
I
I
can
keep
going
on
philosophically,
but
I
think
the
main
part
is
expressing
these
ideas
and
bringing
attention
and
awareness
will
be
very
powerful
to
discuss
as
we
design
our
own
economies
and
we
can
choose,
and
this
choosing
is
very
powerful
and
maybe
we
won't
have
a
specific
model
as
b
always
says.
Like
you
know,
it's
an
embodiment
thing
and
it's
an
experience.
You
can't
really
maybe
have
a
framework
and
rules
that
you
place.
D
B
D
The
final
note
is
the
the
feedback
that
I've
received
from
speaking
with
token
engineers
about
this
topic.
They
always
say:
oh
it's,
you
know
the
theories,
but
how
do
we
apply
this?
D
So
I
think
there's
like
this
journey
that
we're
on
to
bring
the
attention
and
awareness
and
to
understand
the
polarization
and
how
to
weave
these
things
together
in
this
space
and
then
also
like.
Can
we
give
any
tips
or
two
communities
and
the
application
of
some
of
these
discussions
and
like
practically?
How
do
they?
Because
people
have
one
practical-
you
know
not
everybody's
willing
to
engage
in
in
you
know
this
kind
of
dialogue
so
totally.
C
What
I
love
about
about
this
research
about
wikipedia
that
their
conclusion
was
that
wikipedia
could
only
exist
in
practice.
In
theory,
it
could
not.
It
could
never
be
possible.
C
F
There's
some
there's
something
you
said:
bear
about
being
closer
to
the
market
causes
you
to
be
less
intrinsically
motivated,
and
we
just
finished
yesterday
reading
governing
the
commons
by
ostrim
in
a
book
club,
and
there
was
a
part
she
mentioned-
that
farmers
or
people
that
were
like
further
away
from
political
centers,
had
more
freedom
to
apply
their
own
rules
or
their
own
set
of
agreements.
F
C
C
So
so
I
think
whether
it's
the
market,
which
is
a
very
specific
set
of
rules,
so
it's
competition
scarcity
right,
it's
a
very
specific
set
of
rules
or
whether
it's
politics
in
which
usually
it's
applied
as
rewards
and
punishment.
Right,
that's
also
a
very
specific
set
of
rules,
and
you
I
cannot
I
can.
I
myself
cannot
live
in
any
of
those
rules.
C
It's
so
you.
So
we
need
freedom
and
to
be
able
to
carve
out
our
alternative
spaces.
B
Yeah
and
every
time
you
you
say,
incentivize,
just
replace
that
with
the
word
coerce,
because
that's
really
what
it
is
and
if
you're
talking
about
helping
people
from
disadvantaged
places
who
who
really
need
this
crypto
stuff
right.
What
you're
saying
is
you
must
do
this
if
you
want
to
have
enough
money
to
eat.
B
E
I
I
could
actually
say
a
lot
about
that.
Maybe
I
don't
are
we
recording?
So
maybe
I
shouldn't
because
I'm
in
venezuela-
and
there
has
been
so
many
projects
trying
to
you-
know
to
take
off
down
here.
Millions
of
dollars
invested
dash
invested
more
than
a
million
dollars
down.
B
E
And
they
had
some
very
interesting
team,
but
the
motivations
were
all
extrinsic.
One
of
the
events
had
like
1
000
people.
That
was
huge.
They
were
you
know
a
lot
of
pr
these
bumping
and
pumping,
but
at
the
end
of
the
day
you
know
all
of
that
went
away
all
the
merchants.
E
All
the
people,
people
just
went
to
the
events
to
get
an
airdrop
like
15
and
yeah,
so
it
was
all
grown
and
it
wasn't
sustainable
and
when
you
look
at
other
crypto
projects
that
had
tried
to
to
actually
do
something
in
this
country,
it's
mostly
all
of
the
time
the
same
case,
and
actually
I'm
mentioning
this
because
I'm
having
in
two
in
one
two
hours
and
having
a
call
with
u.s
gold
products
and
ngos
on
that,
like
hey.
So
what
happened
here?
Okay,
okay?
How
can
they
use
crypto
and
they're?
E
Having
the
conversation
again
right
now
make
your
doubts
anyway.
Hopefully,
septimus
isn't
recording,
but
anyway.
F
C
If
that
means
that
that's
going
to
translate
into
getting
something
that
they
can
eat,
but
that's
also
what
becomes
so
easily
to
coerce
artists,
and
so
what
we're?
Seeing?
I
mean
people.
So
what
we're
seeing
in
the
crypto
art
space
is
all
these
new
projects
in
which
they're
bringing
artists
to
make
art
but
to
sell
these
nfts
super
extrinsically
all
about
the
money
and
we
in
which
is
obvious
that
now
they're
exploding
artists
to
do
their
projects.
A
So
one
thing
about
this
block
we
just
discussed
is
definitely
token.
Engineers
are
also
in
an
environment
again
where
they
are
maybe
coerced
into
making
some
decisions
through
this
day
today
and
what
is
asked
of
them
to
deliver,
and
just
do
these
simulations
and
figure
this
out,
and
so
I
think
there
are
a
lot
of
a
couple
of,
or
one
block
should
be
about
these
environments,
in
which
token
engineers
are
the
other
block,
is
actually
their
awareness
of
the
environment
in
which
their
token
models
are
going
to
be
deployed.
A
I
think
that
will
just
shun
some
some
awareness.
On
the
other
hand,
I
think
that
awareness
will
be
difficult
to
be
had
if,
for
example,
these
are
just
financial
protocols,
financial
instruments
and
so
on
and
so
forth.
So
we
we
have
a
range
of.
A
I
don't
I
don't
want
to
put
that
like
this,
but,
for
example,
decentralized
finance
protocols
are
just
that
right.
Finance
protocols
put
on
other
technology,
but
there's
still
financial
instruments
and
the
logic
behind
isn't
much
more
different
and
hence
my
assumption
would
be,
for
example,
that
maybe
token
engineers
in
those
environments
aren't
at
all
aware
that
they
should
be
asking
themselves.
Any
kind
of
you
know
ethical
questions
or
what
have
you
or
are
they
right?
A
So
these
environments
in
which
they
operate
and
their
awareness
of
the
environments
in
which
their
tokens
are
deployed
would
be
great
if
you,
if
we
can,
for
example,
work
those
questions
out.
I
think.
A
Yeah,
I
think
a
couple
of
leading
topics
were
here,
but
those
were
definitely
super
interesting.
You
know,
are
they
actually
perceived
themselves,
as
you
know,
policymakers,
or
do
they
perceive
themselves
as
executing
policies?
D
Just
one
note
about
that:
that's
coming
up
really
strong
for
me,
too,
is
dan.
Just
said
like
he
felt
d5
would
dirty
his
values
and,
I
think,
there's
a
tendency
as
well
to
like
demonize
markets
and
but
I
don't
see
them
as
good
or
bad
they're
just
tools.
D
So
not
that
I'm
saying
I
love
capitalism
and
it's
done
great
things
for
me,
but
just
that
you
know,
I
think
when,
when
we
are
talking
about
engineering
or
kind
of
harnessing
or
using
these
tools,
what
are
we
using
the
tools
for,
and
I
don't
think
that
I
would
love
to
to
see
the
dream
where
everybody
wakes
up
and
operates
from
intrinsic
motivation,
and
we
have
these
ubi.
You
know
streams
and
rivers
and
tributaries,
and
this
institutionalized
generosity.
So
we
don't
have
to
think
about
these
things,
but
I'm
a
little
more
realistic
in
that.
D
I
think
that
some
people
will
still
only
ever
operate
in
those
markets.
So
how
can
we
also-
and
this
is
where
I
think
engineering
does
fit
in-
is
they
may
always
be
in
existence?
We
may
not
ever
see
a
day
while
we're
alive,
I
mean
where
this
happens.
So
I
think,
there's
a
way
that
we
can
still
use
these
things
like
creating
markets
around
impact.
People
do
want
to
make
money
like
I.
C
I
I
think
what
happens
is
that
there
is
a
a
tendency
to
to
think
that
if
you
say
like
I
go
and
say
well,
actually
people
who
buys
are
into
extrinsic
rewards
like
they're
buying
at
the
act
of
buying
an
art,
art
piece
for
their
means
are
buying
an
asset,
a
private
property
that
they
can
resell
and
make
money
later
on
that
to
me
is
not
it's
not
an
art
collector,
it's
not!
The
attachment
is
not
to
the
earth.
C
The
attachment
is
to
the
asset
and
the
asset
is
there
to
serve
to
make
profits
down
the
road,
so
that
to
me
defines
an
investor,
and
so
we
shouldn't
have
them
both
together.
So
when
I
say
these
things,
which
I
think
are
completely
logical,
then
people
immediately
have
the
tendency
to
think
oh
well,
but
there
are
investors
that
that
they
might
have
unattached
an
emotional
attachment
to
the
art.
C
So
they
immediately
think
that
to
say
that
means
that
they
don't
have
any
emotional
attachment
to
art
or
that
they're
bad
people,
and
that
is
not
the
case.
Actually,
investors
will
always
most
of
the
time,
invest
in
things.
They
love
things.
They
care
about
people
they
care
about.
They
trust
missions.
They
they
they
support.
C
There
is
an
emotional
attachment
to
it,
but
their
rationality
is
that
the
the
reason
why
they
invest
is
rational
and
it's
extrinsic,
and
these
are
very
different,
say,
motivations
and
expectations
from
somebody
who
is
completely
moved
by
an
art
piece
and
they
just
want
to
have
it
and
they
have
an
emotional
attachment
to
it.
Those
people
tend
to
buy
art
and
not
wanting
to
sell
it,
and
so
so,
first
we
we
shouldn't
demonize
people
who
are
engaging
in
the
market
that
it's
like
it
could
be
any
of
us.
C
C
Investing
or
social
entrepreneurship
is
like
it's
it's
even
worse
than
just
you
know,
wall
street,
because
at
least
you
know
you,
you
know
what
you're
getting,
but
the
the
no
it's
true
like
the
the
idea
that
you're
doing
good,
while
you're
using
mechanisms
that
are
so
toxic
to
the
very
thing
that
you
want
to
achieve
is
to
me
it
is
perverse,
and
so
this
delusion
that
we
get
into
and
and
I'm
the
first
one
I
I
was
an
entrepreneur
for
20
years-
and
I
you
know
it's
like.
C
I
made
myself
believe
that
what
I
was
doing,
at
least
I
was
doing
it
consciously
and
I
was
paying
you
know
well
employees
and
I
were
treating
employees
great.
I
was
still
in
power,
a
hundred
percent,
I'm
still
in
a
position
of
deciding
who
gets
some,
who
doesn't
and
and
their
likelihoods
and
so
there's
something
about
the
system
that
is
completely
toxic
and
there's
nothing.
I
can't
see
anything
in
terms
of
how
the
market,
competition
scarcity
and
the
structures
of
companies
and
institutions
that
are
hierarchical.
C
I
cannot
see
anything
redeemable
about
that.
I
can't
see
anything
that
can
come
out
good
out
of
it
and
and
and-
and
I
you
know
show
me
because
then
I
I
want
to
believe
it,
but
I
I
I
don't
see
it
look
at
the
state
of
our
world,
so
we
have
to.
We
have
to
change
exactly
the
things
that
make
people
behave
in
the
ways
that
we
know
are
toxic
and
detrimental
to
society.
A
Yeah-
and
that
brings
us
actually
to
a
point
like
mikhail-
is
mentioning
be
open,
be
open-minded
and
so
on
and
so
forth.
On
the
other
hand,
yeah
or
let
me
that's
how
I
interpret
like
or
say:
okay,
are
we
demonizing
part
of
our?
You
know
peers
right
when
we
say
ethical,
engineering
and
token
ethical
routes
and
basically
but
see
that
there
has
been
no
consideration
in,
for
example,.
A
A
You
know
that
it's
too
much
for
them
or
they
cannot
deal
with
it
or
they
really
are
thankful
that,
because
we've
met
people
in
the
course
or
in
the
even
before
in
the
introductory
sessions
and
so
on
and
so
forth
and
most
or
some
of
them
are
like.
Do
you
really
mean
it
with
this
ethical
engineering,
because
their
realities
just
look
very,
very
different
and
that's
not
a
token
engineering
thing,
but
that's
actually
anything
tech
driven.
C
A
I
want
to
tie
it
to
something
that
felix
had
shared,
namely
a
document,
and
I
can
post
it
later.
Also
hackers
economy
wait
a
second.
A
Let
me
refine
or
felix
if
you
want
to
say
something:
yeah
hacker
engineer,
economies
like
because
it
resonates
a
lot
with
token
engineering,
but
what
I
see
as
a
token
engineering
potential
right
now,
it's
still
very
vivid
and
it's
the
potential
is
there
that
we
actually
have
the
whole
economics
flower,
this
diversity,
where
it's
not
just
about
systems,
engineering
and
ai
and
optimization
this
purely
technical
stuff,
but
the
whole
aid
pedals,
which
also
include
humanities,
and
there
are
computational
sciences
and
so
on
and
so
forth.
A
So
that
that's
that's
would
be
my
ask
from
all
of
you
when
you
participate
also
in
doing
the
questions
etc.
Please
don't
assume
that
token
engineers
are
only
systems,
engineers
and
and
really
programmers.
You
know
the
typical
techies,
but
we
have
lawyers
and
so
on
and
so
forth,
artists
right
in
the
space,
and
we
want
to
nurture
that.
So
I
want
to
know
to
that.
A
I
hope
everyone
else
sees
this
beauty
as
well
like
I
have
never
been
in
such
a
diverse
environment
and-
and
that's
turns
out
to
be
my
intrinsic
motivation-
I
really
I'm
identifying
with
this
community
a
lot
because
of
its
diversity
yeah.
A
So
if
you
basically,
I
know
if
people
have
to
go
when
we
now
formulate
these
questions,
if
you
keep
those
in
mind
and
and
check
those
and
the
part
about
figuring
out
intrinsic
their
intrinsic
motivations,
but
also
their
environment,
in
which
they
act,
but
also
always
double
check
or
or
help
us
to
make
those
questions
in
a
way
that
we
find
out
most,
but
also
maybe
those
questions
in
a
way
that
actually
shines
or
brings
awareness
to.
Maybe
even
that
diversity
topic
right
felix,
please.
G
Yes,
so
the
text
I
shared
with
you
for
me,
I
read
it
with
a
specific
interest
in
mind.
G
Basically,
the
text
argues
that
context
is
by
clara
brecke,
as
far
as
I
know,
involved
in
dyn.org
and
was
involved
in
decent
and
other
eu-funded
projects,
and
she
argues
that,
yes,
there
are
some
neoliberal
elements
in
the
design
of
of
the
bigger
cryptocurrencies,
so
she's,
mostly
speaking
about
bitcoin,
but
that
is
not
because
of
ideological
choice,
so
meaning
that
these
are
the
architects
of
bitcoin
and
of
other
cryptocurrencies
are
not
necessarily
all
solid,
narco
capitalists
or
adherents
to
the
austrian
school.
G
G
So
becca
suggests
to
to
understand
these
cryptocurrencies,
first
of
all,
as
networks
where
their
architects
make
sure
that
the
network
keeps
on
operating,
that's
the
main
aim
and
then
well,
if
you
achieve
that
through
austrian
economics,
that's
great
if
any
other
economic
system
or
or
economic
school
will
help
you
in
reaching
your
aims,
that's
good
as
well,
so
meaning
that
if
this
is
not
an
ideological
choice
but
just
a
pragmatic
choice,
maybe
it
is
maybe
these
can
be
changed
if
you
find
other
useful
mechanisms,
maybe
devised
by
other
less
less
market
oriented
schools.
G
G
B
B
G
A
an
abstract
theory
into
empirical
existence.
H
H
Sorry
I
have
like
a
lot
of
photos
that
I
won't
be
able
to
unload,
but
you
know
like
a
few
comments,
also
going
back
to
this
pragmatic
thing
you
know
like
when
I
went
to
the
school.
I
realized
it's
like.
I
didn't
really
prepare,
you
know,
I'm
really
doing
survey,
and
then
we
had
this
completely.
You
know
like
parallel
conversation
in
the
meantime,
but
just
stepping
a
little
bit
back
so
shannon.
You
said
that
you
know
people
who
might
do
financial
protocols,
they
don't
have
awareness
right
now.
H
The
question
is:
is
awareness
really
important
or
useful
or
not?
And
why
so?
I'm
advising
a
startup
in
aviation
and
they
have
this
really
interesting
project,
and
you
know
they
have
some
like
team
dynamic
issues
we
wanted
to
to
to
do
that.
We
did
a
survey
with
them
and
one
of
the
questions
was
what's
the
worst
thing
that
can
happen
and
he
said
like.
Oh,
we
might
dissolve
the
company,
which
I
thought
actually
those
guys
are
really
optimistic.
I
mean
like
they
could
be
sued.
H
You
know
like
there
could
be
accidents,
you
know
they
could
have
loans.
That's
you
know
like
different
types
of
reliability
and
it
didn't
really
come
to
their
mind,
but
from
the
other
hand,
it's
not
really.
You
know
like
that.
Bad
and
now
you
know
going
back
to
what
we
really
want.
It's
it's
you
know
like.
There
are
some
things
we
want.
We
just
haven't
communicated
that
throughout
the
call.
H
So,
if
you
think
about
it,
if
you,
if
you
have
inventor
of
dynamite,
you
know
like
that,
can
be
really
good
or
really
bad.
Then
that's
just
technology
in
the
use-
and
I
remember
I
remember
an
interview
with
the
guy
who
was
the
german
inventor
for
rockets.
He
said,
like
I'm
fine,
you
know
doing
rockets
because
in
five
years
or
ten
years
I'm
going
to
build
a
rocket
to
go
into
space.
H
So
he
didn't
mind
that
you
know
like
it's
killed
of
a
lot
of
people,
because
you
know
like
he
just
wanted
to
do
engineering
for
the
sake
of
engineering,
so
where
I'm
going
to
it's
like,
we
have
our
own
bias,
and
you
know
like
checking
one
of
the
comments
from
from
spyro
and
what
was
said
is
probably
like.
What
we
really
want
is
lead
by
example,
to
basically
create
a
new
story
or
narrative
of
what
is
possible
like
possible
impossible.
H
So
that's
one
of
the
things
and
the
other
reframe
that
is
in
my
mind
now.
We
should
probably
actually
go
beyond
token
engineering
and
start
talking
about
you
know
responsible
technology
or
ethical
technology,
and
then
we
might
be
able
to
involve.
You
know,
like
all
the
other
groups
of
people,
because
it's
not
only
about
tokens
or
token
engineering,
there's,
probably
something
more
than
that.
You
know
just.
A
A
G
May
I
add,
I
think
what
what
the
text
I
was
referring
to
also
told
me
or
strengthened
my
belief.
In
so
far.
We
haven't
seen
many
interesting
economic
from
economic
theory,
interesting
experiments.
We
have
seen
mostly
mainstream
elements
in
there,
but
I
think
that
many
of
them
come
by
default,
because
this
is
what
we
are
immersed
in
each
and
every
one
of
us
in
our
daily
lives
in
politics
and
pretty
much
everywhere.
G
B
G
Of
economist,
what
kind
of
school,
what
kind
of
aims?
What
kind
of
blind
spots
does
this
school
have,
and
that
will
tell
you
where,
where
your
project
will
go
economically.
H
H
C
A
It's
just
a
comment
maybe
leading
up
to
it.
Definitely
that's
why
also
the
invitation
to
have
a
bayer
and
sparrow
talk,
invisible
economy,
which
is
also
leading
by
example,
and
being
very
heterodox
in
a
way
really,
it
comes
out,
comes
down
to
artists,
defining
or
creating
an
economy
that
is
sound
right
because
we're
checking
against
and
trying
to
to
break
and
and
see
this
very
pure
consistency
in
the
that
reasoning.
A
So
again
that
is
being
yeah,
it's
just
an
example.
Actually
of
of
putting
that,
for
example,
in
this
call
and
do
have
this
lead
by
example,
and
heterodox.
A
C
So
I
would,
I
would
say
felix
that
that
I
think,
because
these
things
are
so
complex,
what
we're
designing
and
we
we
have
limitations
on
on
what
will
be
the
next
step,
to
figure
something
out
tomorrow
and
in
a
month
and
in
a
year
we
by
default
are
pragmatises,
because
we
have
to
figure
out
things
as
we
go
and
so
to
me,
there's
not
really
a
lot
of
space
for
theory
when
you
are
actually
you
have
your
hands
in,
but
what
you
said
about
what
was
the
outcome
is,
I
think
what
it
makes
a
difference
if
the,
if
the,
if
the
intent
is
to
create
a
safe,
a
very,
very
safe
net
network
as
bitcoin
is
and
decentralized,
and
apart
from
governments
and
so
on,
then
you
know
that
that's
successful.
C
So
what
is
the
aim
it
it's
important
to
for
us?
The
aim
is
to
make
sure
that
we
preserve
the
intrinsic
motivations
of
people.
That
is
the
only
thing
that
we're
trying
to
do.
How
do
we
make
sure
money
comes
in
and
it
it
nurtures
and
preserves
those
interesting
motivations.
It
hasn't
been
done
before.
I
think,
because
if
it
had
been
done,
we
will
be
coping
it,
so
we
have
to
do
it
empirically
and
we
can't
just
theorize.
We
have
to
do
it
day
by
day
and
see
what
emerges
and
react
to
that.
C
So
in
that,
in
that
sense
I
think
everybody
that
would
that
would
try
to
not
even
a
token
economy.
Even
any
platform
will
have
a
pragmatic
approach
and
will
try
to
you
know,
get
whatever
information
from
whatever
place
they
can,
but
the
intent
and
the
mindset
that
you
have
when
you're
doing
these
things
make
all
the
difference,
and
so
here
I'm
not
talking
about
ideology
here,
I'm
talking
about
a
mindset
like
the
things
that
you
believe.
C
So
if
you
believe
that
it's
it's
possible
to
do
something
great
as
a
social
entrepreneur,
the
outcome
you
mean
your
your
decisions
are
going
to
be
motivated
and
informed
by
that
belief.
The
outcome,
however,
it's
going
to
be
just
like
any
other
outcome
the
market
produces.
So
to
me,
it's
not
that
it's
black
and
white
michael,
I
mean
again,
I
spent
20
years
as
an
entrepreneur
right.
C
So
it's
also
like
I'm
always
being
open
and
flexible
and
adaptable,
but
it's
also
the
realization
that,
once
you
understand
the
rules
of
the
system,
then
you
understand
that
the
out
what
the
outcomes
are
going
to
be
inevitably
because
it's
been
proven
over
and
over
and
over.
So
it
doesn't
matter
how
good
you
are,
how
good
your
intentions,
the
outcome
is
going
to
be
very
specific.
So
then
it
becomes.
The
question
to
me
is
what
can
you
what
we
should
leave
behind
from
that
system
or
that
mentality?
C
And
what
can
we
rescue?
I,
I
myself
rescue
the
decentralized
knowledge
of
the
market
right
and
in
that
sense,
maybe
that's
why
you
know
in
token
engineering
hayek
has
a
big
influence,
because
it
makes
a
lot
of
sense
when
you're
talking
about
networks,
but
it
doesn't
have
to
be
the
market,
that's
also
expressed
in
wikipedia,
for
instance,
and
wikipedia
it's
not
under
market
rules.
C
So
so
it's
it's
trying
to
to
understand
what
actually
is
detrimental
to
what
you
want
to
do
and
what
is
actually
helpful
and-
and
here
I
agree-
it's
not-
you
can
be
dogmatic,
it
can
be
about
ideology.
It
can
be
about
theory,
you
have
to
you
have
to
test
it.
You
have
to
see
it.
You
have
to
see
what
emerges
you
can't
control
that.
H
Yeah,
so
I
I
hear
that
the
police
like
really
need
to
jump
because
I'm
hopefully
late
for
a
different
call,
but
I
I
I
hear
I
hear
the
point
basically
from
other
conversations
I
had
it's
really
difficult
to
do
something
new
in
an
existing
system.
So,
as
you're
saying
you
know
like,
if
you
want
to
create
something
new
in
a
capitalist
economy
with
money
being
necessary,
you
know
to
put
food
on
the
table.