Token Engineering Commons Parameters Working Group, 16 Dec 2020

Previous Meeting Next Meeting

⏯

youtube image

►

From YouTube: W4 Parameters WG: Hatch tribute, hatch return and time limit

Description

Timecodes:
00:00 - Which metrics will influence your decision on what set of parameters to choose?
14:00 - Basic modeling
17:00 - List of parameters
18:20 - Sense making on parameters
20:45 - Round of hatch tribute
37:28 - Round on hatch return
41:07 - Round on time limit
53:45 - Closing

🙏 Thank you for watching! Hit 👍 and subscribe 🚩 to support this work

🌱Join the Community🌱
on Discord https://discord.gg/DDr5kYU
or say hello on Telegram http://t.me/CommonsStack
Join the conversation https://forum.tecommons.org/
Follow us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/CommonsStack
Learn more http://tecommons.org/

A

Going to be a deep one and so I'll, let you think about it for a little bit, but when you're looking at proposed parameters for the hatch, just the hatch, which metrics will influence your decision on what set of parameters to choose. So let me give some background here. um Not all the parameters that we were talking about in the hash thread are actually going to be part of the first phase.

A

The parameters that are going to be part of the first phase are going to be the c stack ratio, the hash price, the min and max goal the impact, hours, slope and rate the hatch time limit like how long should the hatch be, and also the dandelion um parameters like when we want to upgrade what support? Does it take? What form does it does it take? What what? How much time will it take based off these things?

A

So those are the uh parameters that we're going to have to choose as a community, and so my question is what metrics are really important, that you're going to look at when you're looking at the different parameter choices so to model? For me, the big, the big questions are around like min goal and connecting that to uh the sense making we have around the hatchers like how much they're, actually the soft commitments and making sure that it's reasonable, also uh probably very curious about like the time like how long the hatch will be plus.

A

How long will it take to upgrade with the voting time so like the like minimum amount of time that we can go from starting the hatch to like upgrading to the bonding curve is going to be a metric that that I'm curious to hear uh and then impact hours. Cultural tribute will also help me when I'm looking at these things I'll pass it to some.

B

I think the all parameters are going to be important.

B

I also agree that the minimum goal is going to be an important one in which we will the rest of the parameters around it, for example, in order to because it's more or less, we read that we are okay. If we don't read that we we fail and.

B

Around that, we can also think on how much um what we give tweaking hours all the rest can come from.

B

I am going to pass it to libya.

C

Thanks, um I think, for me, the most important is having a cohesion between all the parameters, independent of how they are set, that that we take in consideration this equilibria of the final result and now pass to santi.

D

I agree with libya and I think we of course, minimum.

E

D

Probably one of the most critical minimum, but I think we we have to try to play with all the tools that we have uh we'll be communicating, and time is going to be also a very a very important variable and and some minor things which sometimes may help like, for instance, when I look at csdk ratio or or hatching phase price, usually, and that's just human being, when you get more, you feel that that you're getting more I mean if, if, if we increase the total amount and we are able to purchase more tokens for every csdk token, it's not the same, getting two for uh getting a two ratio than getting a 10 ratio.

D

And if you keep this, the variables are the same at the same level, you're getting the same outcome but from the mind setting of people it's like they are getting more. You know I'm getting 10, I'm getting the chance to buy to purchase 10 instead of the chance to purchase two and those are little things that sometimes help, and we gotta also think on those terms.

D

Okay, I'll classify jake.

E

Thanks, annie um having taken part in all these forum, posts has given me a real, better idea of the intricacy of how all this works and, given the circumstance, really the trusted seed. The turnout, the max ratio, how important that minimum goal is to reach before any of this to even actually work, I mean otherwise we're just going to have failed hatches.

E

So all of the other things don't even matter. You know we have to have successful hatches in order to get further along anyways and understanding different different variables. You know learning more about the alpha half-life and like how we can create better hatches. If we have the turnout, you know that's really really cool but yeah, I'm it's it's in the very beginning. It's it's!

E

The it's having enough state tokens with the trusted seed and, having you know, a realistic minimum goal for like whatever they're asking for, of course from that and that in that high support, and all of that, that's really where I just want to see these succeed in the beginning. So we actually have something to go off of I don't it would suck to like. Have one or two work and then like three or four failed. You know because then we're not really learning what we really need to do.

E

Besides, obviously have more state tokens, that's where I'm at um I'll pass it to tonga.

F

Hello, can you hear me because I'm on the phone- I don't know yes, okay, so I'm really not that worried about the parameters, I'm I'm more worried about the the multi-sheet because the parameter I know this is not the call for discussing that.

F

But since we are getting close to the investment, uh the hatch and the that part, I think all the parameters, even if we pick the best. If the multisig is not clear, yeah, it's like the multisig can do anything or I don't know what can do or what it can do. But I would like to work more on that because I'm also asking friends that could possibly invest, but if I don't feel sure I won't be able to transmit security for them to invest.

F

So um I wanted to know if we could some other day or schedule a session for discussing about the the multisig and that that stuff.

F

I don't know what do you guys think.

B

I think it's very a very important intuition that if we are discussing the parameters, but then the dao is doing something else, um what do we are doing and regarding the multi-six we still don't. We still don't know what kind of multi-sticks we are going to have, but they will only be able to pause the smart contracts in case there is a book, but it's just let's pause it during two weeks and they cannot do anything else.

B

That's that's the the thing that we, because it's having a modesty with a lot of power that doesn't doesn't have any sense and the idea is to pause and then it's the dandelion voting with two weeks or whatever it it takes one week. Whatever we decide is dandelion voting, which can upgrade the smart contracts or do whatever else or even remove that that multiseek and resume the the operation.

B

That's that's the idea that we have regarding multi-six because we need in some way to as if there is imagine there is a book in the internal contraction.

B

We see how the ball this is um in the is empty, and we cannot do anything because we in order to do something, we have to wait for a dandelion boarding to pass it's it's something that it's it has happened in the in the past.

B

We don't want that situation, but we don't want either a situation in which democracy can do. I don't know can do that, and so the idea is just the monastic just pauses it and it has the power to pause, but the dandelion boating is also has the power to remove the multi-six.

B

The power keeps in the in the dandelion voting in the in all the community.

B

And now that I have the word, there is another parameter that I think that's in the testing that we grief didn't discuss it's the percentage in which we, the best touch of tokens that we distribute in the in the hatch and the percentage of tokens that we will distribute that we will be available later, it's like because the the bonding curve at the end, if, if we apply that bonding curve at the end, it will be in some way also there will be an appointing, which is very difficult to to get more more tokens to mean more tokens.

B

So it's also a parameter that that is important. How much tokens are we? Are we going to distribute to the hatcheries in percentage.

A

Oh some well send that that'll be part of the upgrade decision. Won't it.

A

Well, here I'll, uh I think jess came in hey jess. The question was well actually zeptimus you've been here the whole time. So but I'll repeat the question for jess. The question is: what will help influence your decisions, the most for the hatch parameters and what metrics are important? What will you look at when you're deciding which hash parameters to choose uh septimus.

G

Yeah thanks cliff, I think, in the same way as libby, like the all, the parameters should have somewhere of connection and those should be aligned with the mission and values of the project.

G

So the parameters should help to reach those values. Admission and another thing. I don't understand why it's so important to reach that minimum goal. What what happens if we it's like we should like can do no nothing. If we don't raise that money on goal, I feel like I don't know it feels bad to like you know you don't reach it and yeah everything's gone. I don't know uh and I'll pass it to you.

G

H

Hey sorry, malitos another call went really long um and I'll be a slightly more passive here, but I wanted to listen and um yeah.

H

I I've also been going through this question in my mind, and I would like I know we're not going to be doing a super thorough modeling, but I'm looking forward to seeing a little bit on that, because any kind of decisions we can make from data rather than just assumptions or you know, opinions or some of some parameters, I think, are kind of more obvious than others like, for example, I've thought a few times. Some decisions could definitely affect our race, like even launching in two parts. It kind of came up.

H

You know, um so I guess for me definitely the mission. The mission and vision are very important, but I'm also kind of looking at what impact these decisions could have kind of socially or from a maybe a cultural perspective and the impact that it could have on um yeah. I guess some of some of the other aspects, but yeah, I'm I'm mostly still just sitting with this question a lot like. What are we really making this decision off?

H

Of and I think it is really important to question our assumptions as well so again, looking forward to like seeing what sean can come up with, even though it won't be complete, so yeah and I'll pass back to griff yeah.

A

I'll take it that that's actually leads exactly. What I wanted to talk about was that um ygg is very excited to help us do basic modeling, so we're not going to do I mean, and for the dandelion and hatch there really isn't a whole lot of agent-based modeling that even would have much effect, but just having a good spreadsheet honestly that when someone says these are the parameters, I'm choosing kicks out certain metrics it'll say oh yeah. Under these parameters.

A

uh It would the minimum amount of time that we could upgrade to the abc and conviction. Voting would be this. The that if the min raise is is reached, then this much impact hours go to this person. Go to these go to uh sorry. This much cultural build tribute will go to people with impact hours.

A

If we get double the min raise, then this much if we get triple the min raised and this much and just like uh once when someone comes in and proposes the hatch parameters boom every they all get uh judged against the same metrics. So everyone can see how these parameters harmonize with each other. So uh one of the once we have the test hatch and we get to give a full spec and really understand uh for certain what uh parameters we will need to decide uh for the test, hatch or for the actual hash.

A

Then we can start building some metrics. That will give us a vision into what parameters really mean, but we have to figure out what those metrics are and that's why? I really that's why I asked this question so.

B

A

B

Grief, I I think that I were discriminated during a little period of time and I was talking alone because I I guess right or I was, did you hear me or not? Oh I'm! So sorry, I was talking alone. We.

A

We yeah we, we heard you talk about um something about the uh abs, the well. I actually thought the parameters that you were talking about, like how many tec tokens are given in the hatch versus, like the shape of the curve for the abc and how many tec tokens will be uh created later and the the governance difference between the hatchers and the the people who buy in directly. I I think that's where you're going, but I kind of thought that was more of an abc parameter than a hatch parameter.

B

B

Okay, because it's it's mostly the the hats, but it's it's because it's how much tokens are we going to distribute in the hatch uh yeah? Let's discuss it in the next one.

A

Okay, so um so I wanna, I hope you guys can see the agenda um uh jake posted it in the general channel and in it I have a list of parameters that are going to be part of the hatch and some that aren't part of the hash because of the launching in two parts.

A

So the parameters that we are not going to have in the hatch for sure are the open price.

A

uh We won't know that until we upgrade to the bonding curve, the vesting cliff, investing complete time period that will be decided on by the dow itself and and the number of dandelion instances in the hatch dandelion dowel that we create. There's really only need for one instance of the dandelion voting app, because there's really one big decision that can change everything.

A

So the dandelion voting app will have there's no point in having multiple, so there'll only be one for the initial hatch, uh but that one is god mode right like it can send all the money to upgrade to any abc conviction, voting parameters that it likes or it can send that money to get coin grants or it can just burn it. If they want, you know it could you can do whatever it wants?

A

So uh there are two, though there are two parameters that we are still under discussion that may or may not be part of the hatch, and I'm excited to have some sense making in this call around it, um but maybe I'll leave that for after I talk about what parameters will be in the hatch.

A

So, as mentioned, the c stack ratio, which is how many um c-stack tokens uh it takes to to buy to put dye into the um to the tec. So is it like, for every c-stack token you have, you can put in one die into the tc, what uh there's the hatch price, which is relatively irrelevant? I would say it's like uh for one die: do you get a thousand tec, or do you get point?

A

Zero, zero, zero one tec, as santi said, that has a powerful psychological effect, uh but it in the end, we're upgrading and every die is really just going to be mapped to any number of tec. There's also the rescue multisig, which uh sem mentioned and tonga mentioned, there's the main goal, which is obviously very important. uh If we don't reach the min goal, then uh the return, then people get their money back uh or well. We'll talk about that.

A

There's the time limit. How long do we want the hatch to be, and then there's the impact hours parameters, the slope and the max amount of uh impact hours possible, the max amount of die rate, that's possible for impact hours, so those are the main hatch parameters and then, of course, there's also the dandelion dowel parameters. Support required quorum, basically hey what what are the parameters on god mode? How much?

A

How much consensus do we need and how much time does it take to get that consensus uh so uh and the toll gate fee as well like what does it cost to even propose a parameter to the dow or a chain the parameters?

A

So those are the things that I want to make sure that we have a chance to discuss today and I think we'll popcorn it. But first since there's only seven of us, I think we can do a couple rounds of sense making around the hatch tribute and the hatch return, the hatch, the hatch tribute first.

A

So we've been talking about this in legal and I know santy's up and- and uh most of us were actually there about uh when people send their money to uh the tec during the hatch and if we pass hatch the min hatch goal, then people with impact hours will end up getting uh tec so that actually dilutes the holdings of the people who contributed to ec in the first place.

A

So if you put in a hundred die you'll get 100 worth of tec, but then, when we hit our main goal now, uh your your tec is no longer worth 100 because you just because other people just got tec for free and they all have equal claim over the money. That's in this dandelion down so now, maybe your 100 die is worth 80., but we have another option we can.

A

We can create the hatch tribute during this thing, which is a forced donation to te public goods so now, instead of it being uh just worth 80 die. Maybe we already make the decision that oh, the hatch tribute is going to send 40 percent to the um the conviction voting dow and this 80 die is worth even less it's or this 80 die where the tec is worth less, it's worth, um I guess 52 or 30 32.

A

I don't know whatever it is 40 times that so um 4 32 so 60 times that anyway, it's 48. so uh question. Should we impose the hatch tribute during the hatch, or should we wait and make that something that happens when we upgrade? I will pass it to sem.

B

I well you are, you are always passing it to me.

B

I am going to pass it to, I don't know santi and then I I I respond. Okay.

D

This is a tricky question because there's two variables that we can play with when we do it and how much is gonna, be the tribute we I I understand. There's gonna be a tribute period uh so to me it's more when we do it than the amount, because if we add at the very or we we have very close together the dilution because of the impact towers plus the tribute, I think it's it's uh you know in a way you may not realize which one is which okay, you see.

D

Your initial amount 100 die and you end up with 60 die, which is a good thing, because you know both both parameters get mixed.

D

If you, if we don't have them together, you see that your die went from 100 to 80 and then all the sudden they went to 60 and what's going on here, you know, I think it's more of a psychological thing and and we're going to be not careful careful, it's not the word, but we gotta think on that, because it's important and- and I would I would say to me- I would I would prefer to see to to have that sensation of losing value just once, but that's a personal opinion.

D

I don't know about about the rest. Okay, I'll pass it to uh sam if he wants or to uh jake whatever you guys decide.

E

I'll take it.

E

Well, it a lot of this um okay. With this, this specific thing we're talking about like with sandy bringing up, does fall back to the trusted seat, a lot. um If it's in a perfect world that those are all the great people we want them to be they're going to understand this, um I mean that's my opinion. I think they're going to understand this, this technical gap here- I guess um now as far as people coming in later on, whoever they are- that psychological factor is going to be really big.

E

So I guess it would be up to us on how we educate people on seeing these discrepancies on. Why or what you know why it might be there. Why? Because that psychological thing is a big deal, because most people, unfortunately or his number go up so they're, not they're, not really they're, not really going to understand why all of a sudden they lost something, but I mean I think the trusted seat would, but you know um so really to me it's some of those, it's just a matter of who who do we have involved?

E

You know who, who is uh a c-stack token holder, um all right, santiago, I mean uh sam. Are you ready.

B

I mean I'm I'm ready, but I want to listen to libya fairfax, for example,.

E

Okay, well, I'm gonna pass it to libya.

C

um I feel like I have so many questions around this first, I had the impression that uh launching in two parts would mean that the dandelion would decide about um about launching the bonding curve and conviction voting.

C

So how would we put the hatch tribute before those decisions are made? Am I like totally off I'm just confused about that.

A

No, let me let me clarify so basically when people, if we put the hatch tribute in in here, this is where it is right now uh where, uh in this picture, there's uh the reserve pool and the funding pool end up getting funded before we upgrade, and that means and and basically the people with tec tokens if they disagree with the upgrade well they're fun, the money that they put into the funding pool and in the hatch tribute ends up being still there in the dow.

A

So if they contribute and then they're like ah nah, I want out well it's a forced donation just by participating.

A

If we do it later, then uh less money will be um than if if people want to leave before the upgrade, they can get their money out minus the funds that went to the impact hours people so, um but by delusion.

C

Okay, I see thank you, um yeah. I think, if we um inform this very well that there is an amount going to the funding pool, I think it's even beneficial because it frames more in into the like public good aspect of it rather than in the investment aspect.

C

So I don't think people should be thinking that they are losing money. I think the framing and the narrative should be that they are investing in tea public goods. That is the reason why they should be here in the first place.

C

And I passed to uh jess.

H

Yeah, I guess for me um yeah. I appreciate everybody saying so far, especially what's something psychology is really important because- and I guess I'm always thinking like a narrative's perspective- it's a lot about perception. So it's you know what is the truth.

H

Just perception of people.

A

Can you guys hear jess.

C

No, it started to cut out.

A

A

I

A

We can't really hear you, oh she's gone uh well I'll, pass it as after this then.

G

Thank you very much. uh I still think it's very important like uh like, for example, olivia was saying like it's important to like the people. We have it's investing on uh the public goods, but at the same time, I'm thinking if we don't reach that minimum goal there, it's not going to be any the public good.

G

So I still think it's important uh to make them feel it's easy to join and leave if they don't like what they're seeing, but once they are in, they are going to investigate more and feel inside, and that would make them want to want to stay, because what we're doing is great uh and I'll pass it to.

G

Maybe chess can talk or try.

C

H

Can you hear me? Oh okay, great, I'm, not sure how much you heard of the last thing I said, um but yeah unclear now yeah. I was just saying. I appreciate the different angles and viewpoints and I especially think what santi said is really important about the psychology, because what is the truth?

H

It's mostly people's perception, so I think sometimes having that awareness of like how things could be perceived is really important, but as far as um yeah when and how much, um I think we all are agreeing and are aligned around that this is meant to fund projects.

H

So I think I don't know if we could do like a little poll on the forum or something to like get a little more feedback from people like maybe to the larger group, because this one is kind of important. It's like you're. Putting in you know, x, amounts like how much do you really expect that to be kind of like an investment versus? Are you just purely giving as a donation, and you you wanted to go to projects?

H

I don't know it feels to me like somewhere down. The middle is good like a 50, 50 or but yeah. I think the timing is also gonna be a huge part, but I guess I'm still kind of feel like I'm not quite caught up on all the discussions. I just started watching the video yesterday jake uh your last video.

H

So maybe I'm not prepared to fully comment so I'll think about it a little bit and then, but maybe I'm thinking like maybe a little some polls in the forum around some of these ones, that we really need the collective on versus like some that we can just make the decision and it's pretty obvious, just a thought.

H

So pass back to griffer jake.

A

Sure I I mean I can take it since some wanted to go last. He gets his wish um all right, but uh actually this has been really informative and it made me wonder if we couldn't just leave it as a parameter that we get to choose in the hatch and we can make it bigger if we want in the abc upgrade so yeah. I I I kind of like this idea of it might be a choice of the parameter that we can just set to zero.

A

If we want uh and that's if that's voted on by the community to be the set of parameters, say, zero goes to the second vault. That's irredeemable, that's guaranteed to go to the funding pool uh and then, if people are like yeah but we'd like a five percent tax on anybody who leaves that just you know make sure that goes as a donation of public goods.

A

um Personally, I'm leaning more towards the zero percent uh approach, or at least a really small percent. Because uh of what santi said and what was said in the last call around the lines of multiple taxes, you know they already have to pay the cultural build tribute, which is, uh you know, basically their dilution of the tec token to the people who built this and that might if we go too hard on them, it might just dissuade people from taking the risk in this down.

A

So I I lean more towards uh like leaving it in, but I would probably vote for a zero percent hash tribute and I'll pass it to jeff jake. Did you go jake.

E

I went it's a sims turn: okay cool. He doesn't he's gotta go now perfect.

B

Okay, I I loved all the contributions, because I I it I I was. I wasn't thinking on many of the of the of the things that you said I was. I was just going to say: let's put it a 0 here, because it's easier for the smart contracts.

B

That's why that's why I didn't want to go first, but the intuitions that I I have is that we from santi's intervention.

B

I think that we have to be very clear on what are going to be the deductions of the of the people's money from the beginning and it's it can be something that we show in the website. And how are you? How much are you giving?

B

How much are you going to be able to withdraw in that point and in that other point, something like a very clear thing on what you will be able to to do not only in the legal terms but also in the interface and that's that's one of the things like from the beginning say you now have have that and that other thing is a donation. It's not something that!

B

I think that this this was libya that give the idea of it's not actually something that you lose. It's something that you are donating, so the language here should be. You are not losing money.

B

You are donating to that great house, so it's something that we can also communicate in that way and from the from the smart contract perspective, I think that we can go with what we already have, which can be set to zero percent, as as grief was saying, or we can put it uh whatever person we want, and it's it's it's something that it's already done, it's it's. It was not easier to put a zero there.

B

We can still go with uh whatever we want and that's fine, and what I'm worried about is is to make it very clear for people how much money they will be able to get at any point and if they cannot get any money with what we tell them, that it's a donation and um thank you for donating that amount of money to the commons.

A

What will be cool is it'll, be very obvious um if we hit the main goal. This is how much money their tokens are worth uh that they get. This is how much goes to the cultural, build the impact hours people- and this is how much goes to the funding pool the future funding pool, and if we hit two times the main goal, their tokens will be worth more. If we, if we that's one thing, one dynamic, that's really cool with our hash parameters. Okay, I want to do a really quick round.

A

This is like 30 seconds max or I interrupt you so quick sense. Making on hatch return background on hat's return is that if we don't hit our min goal, what happens to the money uh there could be that force. The hatch tribute could be forced there and then maybe it just gets donated to uh to something or maybe impact hours. People could happen um 30 seconds, really quick.

A

If them, if we don't reach the min goal, what happens to the money that was put into the hatch uh I'll pass it to santi, because I know he is stronger.

D

To me, if we don't reach the goal, everyone that puts money gets his money back and the impact towers get lost and we don't get anything pouring back towers. An opposition.

A

I don't know who he passed it to. Let's go jake.

E

I actually I don't know, I have lots of ideas, but the the easiest clearest thing to do is just give everybody back their money and that's it we're just we're done. I don't really like it, but that's it's really. The easiest way to go. It's the less friction.

E

So, okay, um olivia.

C

Yeah, I agree, I think, in terms of, like trust, transparency, integrity, it's just giving everyone back and I pass to.

G

G

Oh, I was muted, uh I was I was saying uh yeah I think. Like the same of the rest, uh the money should be back to the the one who put in in there and I'll pass it to jess.

H

I just want to be contrarian now, I believe in giving everybody back their money, but maybe we have a 10 donation to like te academy, gitcoin or gitcoin, but that's a little self-serving. But I think a 10 donation could be really nice and we can vote on it as a community where we want to give that money to. But I think yeah all right. A pass to sam.

B

Okay, I think that I go with the maturity here. uh I I think that it's also interesting, but from the technical perspective, it will be much easier to it's already done to refund everything.

B

I don't know if, if you, if you gain more support, yes, we can. We can do that the other way, but I I from my point of view I go with the majority here.

A

I uh I also go with the majority, although I do like the mark. 5 goes to git coin, no matter what donate to the next bitcoin round. I feel like that would be a good marketing approach and we might gain more from it, but um technical, uh technical and cleanliness. We have enough complicated to explain so probably less features less is more okay, uh thank you for the sense making, and now uh let's talk about what what parameters do people want to talk about?

A

Does anyone have we have 15 minutes, and I have all the parameters listed here to jake's amazing work? um Are there any parameters that people want to, especially.

E

Discuss, uh I think we should talk about time limit. Okay, I think vote duration and how long these hatches are is a really big deal.

A

I think we should talk about that. That sounds great okay, so there's two time limits and I'll do another quick round that 30 seconds um thing was really worked really well, so there's two time limits. There's the hatch time limit, which is like how long does it take? uh How long do we, let people send money to this thing and get tokens for it, and then we stop and vote on parameters so uh there may be.

A

I want to say that if there are problems with smart contracts that require fixes this like hash time limit and then there might be a gap that might be who knows, because oh problems right and then upgrade and then there's the voting time so there's the dandelion vote proposal, buffer vote, execution, buffer and voting time. So all of these things are in times and let's do some sense, making so I'll pass it I'll pass it to you jake. uh What do you think about the timing.

E

Well, and also too right there just to finish him off too, you also have the alpha half-life um and that gets thrown in on how long we do with that too.

A

E

That's set later, so it's not like right now or anything, but is also time. It's also part of the time.

E

The the point is like we like he said we have to have a min for in case there's technical problems and whatever we can do best about that with the smart contracts in case something comes up. There's also, the factor is the less time the the you know we're not going to get as much as we can. If we go too long, we can just cause more problems that way as well. So it's going to be really difficult to kind of just set.

E

What what really is the magic number here and it's going to, unfortunately, probably take numerous hatches to really figure that out. So I personally, I think, moving forward from here. We really just got to think about if things go wrong during a hatch. What how long should people have as a buffer to make those right? um What what? What what's the technical side? What's the minimum, or you know honest time that these people need to fix something and everybody can still have a clear hatch and we kind of set our numbers based off of that?

E

Okay, so say they need. I I mean I'm just throwing something out there, but say say they need four days to fix contracts. You know. Maybe then maybe then the actual vote duration should be five days. So we give everybody an extra one, just in case nothing too special, nothing too much, but just kind of stick with the technical and base everything off of them.

E

B

I think that the hatch period should depend on the communications point of view, so I I would like to have jessica in in specifically jessica in that one, because it's going to be the hatch campaign or the fundraising campaign and the other amount of time it's. How much do we need people to put their vote on, and I think that it can be a typical dandelion voting of one week.

B

The the thing is that we can say that um in the first in the first time we can say that we are raising money and in the second time we can also do another communication that it's we are opening the bonding curve. So the we are doing the ico, the beginning, we are doing the the we are launching the token in the market.

B

In the second moment, I pass it to duchess.

H

Thanks sam um appreciate that I guess my first instinct is to say two weeks to let people buy in to the hatch one week for a pause for like tech fixes and everything and then one week for the voting so a total of one month but yeah. I also am kind of like for me.

H

It's more important how much time we have from when the app is ready, ready to go and communications and being able to provide like videos for onboarding materials and like the email campaigns which can be hustled together, pretty quick, but I would ask for maybe at least three to five days between when the hatch app you guys are like saying green light to when we actually do. The hatch, I think we need at least I mean a week, would be great.

H

Three days would be pushing it like five, okay, we could probably you know cram it together if we everyday hustle, on only focusing on that. So to me, the time before the in between the tech and the hatch is actually the most important from a comp's perspective. I think and onboarding with that I'll pass to libya.

C

Yeah, I I support jazz besides there and I pass to tonga.

F

Hey guys, yes, I I personally I'm not very interested in the parameters. If the foundations are not clear, it's like, I feel like it's being avoided and it's a very important topic, so I wanted to propose that's why I didn't. I left the code because for me it makes no sense to discuss the parameters before discussing the multisig and what the multi-city is going to be able to do and other stuff.

F

For me, it goes the other way. First, the the races and then then you can build on top. So I wanted to propose a meeting for discussing all the multisig related and stuff.

F

If any of you want to join, obviously or if you agree or not, maybe I'm not saying things clear, but yeah I don't want to.

F

If this is going to be a project that is like, I don't know, I I am working every day I like to come to the meetings I like all of you, but I think that stuff has to be clear: shouldn't be avoided anymore, so yeah up to you, if you guys want you, can message me on on discord and we can schedule a meeting about it or yes, that's what it is so yeah.

A

Yeah we can have a teaser.

B

Sorry, central india, I I I I'm a moment.

A

um And I'll take it really quick. um I agree that it's, the the hatch period is really on comms to the side, um although it is something that- or at least I will vote like jess's vote will be extremely influential on. um In the end, we will have a decision process around picking these parameters, and this will be one of them.

A

So it is a community decision, but obviously jess's voice will be the loudest, and uh I think two weeks is good too that and as far as like that middle term, for fixing bugs we can't set that that's just going to be like. If some says no, it's not safe to upgrade for 10 months, then it's not safe to upgrade it for 10 months. I mean there's nothing. We can do uh we're just screwed. I I imagine that won't be the case.

A

Why I'm pushing their smart contracts frozen so that we can have major code reviews uh before before the launch, but uh it is what it is and then for the voting time, I don't think we need a week. I feel, like most of the debate will happen through soft soft governance on uh on the forums. So that we can come to a consensus and that actually the dandelion vote uh should be something that is just like bureaucratic execution, uh confirmation of what the consensus is, but we'll see.

A

um So I imagine like the seven day window, for it is good I'll pass it to zap.

G

Yeah, I think I think, uh as everyone like jesus who this time's, the the most so and what she says is like it's going to be loud. I also think it's important like to have some time to people to like. Maybe some people who wants to invest is uh who have a lot of sistergate tokens. Maybe he don't is like he's not super involved in the project right now, and maybe he needs too much some time to read everything and I think one month should be cool. So since we have only one shot, it's go.

G

It's good to be able to onboard people and don't miss anyone, but but yeah. Well, that's my opinion and I think it was the.

A

Last oops did santa go.

D

I still have to go. Oh sorry, sorry, sorry, no problem! Thank you sam. uh I I agree with grief uh about the technical stuff. There's no way we can put some time there because we don't know what's going on, what's going to happen and whatever it happens, we'll have to wait till it gets fixed. So I I wouldn't discuss on that. I think two weeks is good, but I also want to hear uh jess because there's the uh the metoo effect.

D

If some of us start start investing, we publish it on the on the uh on social media sites. There's momentum coming in, and people who may be thinking about it. After seeing all the impact uh from all of us, communicating that we're putting money here and investing in this great project, and so on it maybe two weeks, it's not big enough to get that effect. Okay, but that's uh that's uh something that jess probably knows more than me and for the voting uh at most a week I agree.

D

Just one week should be should be more than enough. I don't know who's coming.

A

Next, I think that's everyone. Can I.

H

Can I share one more thought, maybe actually thinking about it? There could be research out there because there's been so many icos and so many raises. Maybe there's research related to what is like the um most efficient time limit.

H

Just do some research. If everybody wants to see if they can, we can find anything. Maybe there's data to help.

E

Us, the only thing, though jessica is we have so many variables that it would really make that kind of difficult where a majority of those hey send all your f here and then we'll. We drop you all these tokens afterwards, like they're, it's it's. It's really going to be hard to kind of to see where that is. I mean like even eels, who had a year, you know, and they had they.

E

They had kind of an intricate ico because they had all these tokens that they would release only so much at a certain time based off of your donation and and they I I mean we can there's stuff to look up, but we have so many other factors that I think it's going to be really difficult to pinpoint what would be a time or what would it be a good time.

H

You're right yeah, but yeah santiago, I'm on the verge too of like is two weeks enough, but yeah I can keep thinking about it.

A

Yeah well, thank you guys we're at the top of the hour. um I really appreciate the sense making time uh tonga. We will definitely talk multisig and its powers and whether or not it should be there. uh I think that's a discussion that's worth having. um I imagine.

E

We can set it up yeah. I would. I would really like everybody, because we didn't get to it the impact hours, because we have new variables, new questions and there's a lot. There's a lot more to understand about income, so yeah, whether we have another call or in your own time. Please look at these things, so you kind of get more of an understanding of what's going on, because now we actually have an equation and we're going to.

E

We got a graph we can play with and we got a lot more going forward with this, which will be big with clubs when we're educating new people about coming in, like onboarding and whatnot about how this works- and you know what what this community can do so um yeah and uh have a great day, and thank you for coming have a great day and thank you.