Toronto City Council Public Works and Infrastructure Committee - 2014-2018 Term of Council, 19 Sep 2017

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From YouTube: Public Works and Infrastructure Committee - September 19, 2017

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Public Works and Infrastructure Committee, meeting 23, September 19, 2017
Agenda and background materials:
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/decisionBodyProfile.do?function=doPrepare&meetingId=11898

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0:12:50 - Call to order

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Good morning, when members of the public works in a structure committee, please report to committee room one for quorum.

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C

Well, it's not here yet so we're gonna start and if it gets added, that's fine.

C

Okay, we're gonna get started.

C

We have a little presentation, but we're gonna just hold off till we get through the agenda. So I'd like to call this meeting to order Public, Works and Infrastructure Committee welcome committee members and members of other members of council as well as our audience. Here today and speakers. We have 12 items on the agenda.

C

It is growing as I speak and I'll talk about that in a minute, there's screens at the back and an aside here to watch what's going on as well as the clocks, the timing clocks, also, you can watch it online on your computer tablet or smartphone at phone at wWOZ. A council I just want to ask committee.

C

If there's any declarations of interest on any of the issues before us today, seeing none I'll move on, can I have a motion to move the last minutes: Thank You, counselor, Carmichael Grubb, all those in favor that carries and now we'll go through the agenda. I know: yeah I mentioned it: okay, so PW 23.1. This is the on-demand water service replacement any I'm happy to move that.

C

Okay, all those in favor that carries PW for 23.2 extension to neighboring communities, waste disposal, agreement to at green land land feel any any concerns about that, or so it's moved all those in favor that carries PW 23.3 minor amendment to the City of Toronto Street naming policy.

C

There's definite steps on that. You know: there's not I'm, not singing changed, so we don't have any depths on that. Okay, that is moved all those in favor carry PW 23.4 sewers and water supply, bylaws 2016 compliance and enforcement annual report Oh anybody. You want to move that I'm happy to okay, counselor Carmichael, Grubbs move dot, okay, counselor ma'am, a lady would like to hold PW 23.4, PW, 23.5, lead and drinking water mitigation strategy.

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Annual report I'll move that all those in favor that carries PW 23.6 municipal principles to guide transition of the blue bin program. Councillor Carmichael grab is moving it all. Those in favor that carries 23.7 waste reduction, community investment program pilot phase, councillor mana leader. You would like to hold that I also have some questions on that, so that is being held. Pw 23.8.

C

This has depths free floating car sure, so we have two depths on that, so reputations, so we'll hold that in my name, xx: PW 23.9, Eglinton, crosstown, LRT out great segment traffic bylaw amendments that somebody want to move that councillor holiday moves it all. Those in favor that carries PW 23 point 10 I do believe we have speakers on this issue. Addition of former municipality logos on streets at night name signs, that's correct.

C

So we have we're gonna hold that in my name and PW 23 point 11 Heath draw Heathfield Drive winter maintenance went your path. Maintenance, I'll, move, okay, counselor holiday is moving staff Rex on that, and thank you all those in favor that carries okay and then PW 23 point 12 utility locate, services, counselor ma'am, a lady would like to hold that okay, so we have a few holds. We also have some additions to the agenda.

C

The clerk staff will circulate so I will introduce them at this time. If the committee is okay with that, there's also one that councilor gentlemen and Wang is working on, but we haven't received it yet it needed to be modified.

C

So we'll wait to see if we get that, but for now I'll introduce these ones I have before me. So there is one from a counselor Mike Layton and the topic is climate adoption and managing Toronto's stormwater in the face of climate change.

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All those in favor of that being added to the agenda is this: oh, so they've already got these.

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So they're just been circulated.

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Okay, I recorded votes been requested.

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All those in favor of adding councillor Layton's item to the agenda on climate, adaption adaptation and managing Toronto stormwater in the face of climate change.

D

Sure go ahead, one of ordered madam chair, if I understand this correctly we're requesting that the director of Environment and Energy report in consultation with several others and I, wonder why it's at this committee. That's.

C

A great question: let's ask the clerk: why is this at this committee? Because the first name is the general and they're, not our division, it's energy and efficiency or energy and.

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Environment division heads report to the division wherever the topic is so it relates to infrastructure and that's the primary topic. This is the committee that deals with infrastructure.

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All those in favor of adding the item to the agenda recorded vote.

C

Yes, so I don't disagree with you, I'm also not a fan of last-minute motions. However councillor Layton did some at this son several days ago, but didn't circulate it. Obviously, the committee members and the practice of this committee has been to accept these motions last minute, but I have to agree with you: I'm not a big fan of it, but it is.

F

A solution as it doesn't give the public the ability to come and depute. When you do these kinds of things.

C

So the practice of this committee, certainly for the last three years, has been to introduce motions. Sorry.

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Okay, so our options, the options before us, are to take a recorded vote and determine whether we introduce this to the agenda or the other option before us. That I'm being advised is to defer it to another meeting.

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It to the agenda and then defer it.

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So what would the or defer to the other option is defer and definitely I'm getting all sorts of great options here. So what would the committee like to do.

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F

Move deferral indefinitely so.

C

You have to you have to introduce it. We have to add it to the agenda in order to do that. I'll.

F

Sir mammal ladies like to vote against, adding it to the agenda first phase.

C

All righty, then all right, so why don't you finish your recorded.

B

Vote on the motion to add this item as new business, all those in favor.

F

We're doing one of those.

B

Come on add it to the the item on climate change, all those in favor of adding it to the agenda. Councillor Carmichael grab councillor Holliday, chair, Robinson, councillor Lee. All those opposed counts from a m'lady. That item is added to the agenda.

C

Okay, so it's a deferral motion. Do we take it at this time? Do it right now, I'd.

F

Like to move it indefinitely, please.

C

Okay, we have a motion before us. Do you want a just a general vote or a recorded vote or general rules? Fine, okay, all those in favor?

C

That is not just one. So it's added to the agenda. Okay, the second item: that's we've been asked to introduce and again it's up to the committee I'm happy to work with the Committee on these issues. This is dhoklas bike-sharing and it's a motion from councillor Mike, Layton I'm, talking about this type of sharing industry. That's happening around the globe. So it's a report, request I! Think it's been circulated to you. I didn't realize it had been, but it's circulated to you. So what would the committee like to do with this.

F

Madam chair, yes, nobody else is speaking up so I'll. Do it I'd like a recorded vote on whether or not we should accept it again? This is something that should go through its normal course of motions. Doesn't give the city anybody from the city the ability to depute and give their opinion on it and I. Don't even think it should be here, quite frankly, without going through a process. So I'd, like a recorded vote on this, because I'd like to vote against it and.

D

I'd like to raise a point of order as well again about the subject matter of the motion as I read it it, it really speaks to the Toronto parking authority, who is the service provider of the of the bicycle systems and again I wonder why it's at this committee and, if it may belong elsewhere, would be more effective if.

C

The clerk could address the committee members question I.

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Believe the item look deals with public realm and transportation services is charged with public realm, so I believe it's properly before this committee. Thank you.

C

Okay, so we've the request has been made for a recorded vote. All.

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Those in favor of adding the item to the agenda counts for Carmichael grab, councillor holiday, Jerry, Robinson, councillor Lee, all those opposed councillor mana lady. That item has been added to the agenda.

C

Okay and there's one last one that I have before me as I, said we're waiting, possibly for another addition, but we'll proceed. This is from councillor past or not, and it's also I. My understandings been circulated circulated to you as a new business item. You can see before you it's a request for a report on the use of diamond lanes on Dufferin, Street and Allen Road, or to amend the use of diamond lanes.

C

He is the local councillor in that area. Again he's he set this to me yesterday and to the clerk.

C

Yeah well, yeah I'll move this to be added to the agenda, all those in favor, okay, that carries all right now. We're gonna just take a quick break to make a quick announcement about the City of Toronto being awarded 2017 s best tasting water by the Ontario Water Works, Association, o wwa, so I guess I'll just say a few words and then I'll ask Marcus is Marcus here. Okay, if you can make your way up, thank you for for coming today.

C

We appreciate you being here: Marcus Furman is the president of the Ontario Water Works Association and.

C

I'm just going to say a few words about the Ontario Water Works Association: they provide leadership and water management through education, innovation, science and technology, as well as improvements in customer relations. So we appreciate all that you do. The O wwa also participates in the development of government policies, and this work is done through dedicated and skilled, volunteer water professionals who are committed to water stewardship for the public in all levels of government.

C

At the 2017 Ontario Water Works Association annual conference entries were provided and received from eight utilities across Ontario and were sampled and judged unanimously for the best tasting water. The 2017 o wwa best tasting water winner is drumroll, please the City of Toronto, so yeah.

C

We have very fortunate residents who are the recipients of this amazing water. So we want to thank the O wwa for taking the time to come here and presenting the city with this award and thank you to the staff, especially special thanks to the staff in Toronto Water, our amazing staff in Toronto Water, who continued to provide tronto nians with safe drinking water for not just our residents but businesses and visitors. So thank you to everybody involved and we'll do the presentation now should we do you want them up here? Oh, that would be amazing.

C

Yes, just make sure the mics on thank.

G

You so thank you for the introduction and thank you for letting everybody know what the Ontario Water Works Association is our conference, which is the largest in the province actually for the water industry. We have close to 1500 participants a year made up for municipal operators, consulting engineers and equipment, suppliers throughout the province and actually the country. So it's actually a very prestigious and large event. We have in Niagara last year would be Niagara again this year, so please come and attend it's quite the event.

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We have a lot of the ministry there and for the first time last year we had a big continuously from the indigenous world water Workers, which is a big part of moving forward in the province. So it's a really good conference and we would like more people from Toronto to come to it, because once again, this is the fourth time I believe in ten years that are under water as one the best tasting board or the People's Choice Award at our conference.

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So it's a great pleasure that I'd like to present the award here by the way this is Michelle Griego she's, our executive director of the association, it's with great pleasure and a little Envy, because my day job is I'm director of water and wastewater for the district to Muskoka. So I would like to win it once in a while, but but never mind, Toronto wins I'm gonna say that's to go into the mass of people to drink, Toronto's, wonderful, water and I like to congratulate all those in the in your water department. For doing this.

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You very much why don't you come forward at this time? Would you like where's Lou, our our general manager of water, who's responsible for our taps? Turning on I'm sure we'll come in there.

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Okay, we're going to continue.

C

So, thank you. Everyone for accommodating that commercial break for Toronto water and the best-tasting tap water. Now we know so that's great to have that on our record, so we're going to continue with the agenda as not where we left off, but with the first item that was held, which was PW 23.4 held by Councillor family, these sewers and water supply, bylaws, 2016 compliance and enforcement annual report.

F

My questions have been answered: I'm good, I'll move. It.

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C

Moving it Thank You councillor m'lady, that's so moved all in favor yeah that carries it's been moved, I thought.

H

We were at questions, then, immediately it went to.

C

Okay, do you want to ask a question? I did okay go ahead? Please.

H

I wanted to know how many priority outfalls have been identified that have been identified that have where the source has been found and it's been corrected and those that have not in the Taylor Massey Creek watershed.

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Madam chair, yes, I'm, Taylor, Massey Creek sewer shed in for the total for the whole program are during the year. No.

H

What's outstanding because we started.

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Out standing years ago, yeah outstanding then priority out Falls. As of the end of December, there's 14 remaining out false.

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When we started there were 41, so we've been slowly decreasing the number of priority out Falls, but we're sitting at 414 at the end of 2016 and.

H

You wouldn't know how long these are ones that have been difficult to identify. Yes,.

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The we would have to continue our search and trying to find out the source of the contamination, and some of them are very difficult to find they could have been intermittent discharges. So our staff continued to follow up, trying to delist those out false and.

H

So all the watersheds now have been in presumably inventoried investigated and we're now just trying to deal with the remainder of the outfalls that are still not the source of the combined sewer. Outflows have not been so.

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Through the cherry, yes, we've been through all of the the Sioux or the the watersheds already, and we are going back through them again, so we're not going to just end the program, we're continuing our search and starting from the beginning, as one of the issues that that we found is that across Canada cross connections can happen at any time.

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So, even though we may D list enough fall, it doesn't mean that some activity doesn't occur out there that where someone has has introduced a new cross connection, so the program will always continue and we will monitor, and if we find that an outfall has to be put back on the list, we will do that and try to find the source of the contamination. Meanwhile, we'll continue to clear the the alcohols that are still listed as priority.

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Best practices versus the p2 plans. We have, we now done a second round of p2 plans.

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Three-Man chair, yes, we have and in fact, if we go to and find a page for you, but there's one a page, 15 there's a gene. Yes, the we provide statistics where there's been significant improvement in compliance with with the p2 plants.

A

You can see. Now some sectors are up. My photo labs. 100% some sectors are in the 90s, so there's been significant improvement over the course of 2016 on compliance with the second round of our p2 plans. Okay,.

H

So one of the there are two auto body, refinishing and dry cleaners. It looks like there's still a lot of a lot of work to do.

A

Yes- and you could see from the automotive services section, there's there's quite a number of facilities. So by far the largest population over 2,600 establishment.

H

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That that makes a little bit more difficult too far for staff to engage all of those groups and get them to comply. So that's why you see a lower number, it's just much larger population, but our staff continue to work with that with that sector, as well as the individual shop owners. Okay,.

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Just want to say thank you. This program I want to particularly thank Joanne de Caro and her team for the great work that they do. I think our series by law is probably one of another example of the leadership from Toronto water. So thank you very much. Please find the sources of those last cross connections. Thank you.

C

Baby had moved this item, all those in favor that carries let's go to our next item and our next item is I think also helped I can't sir ma'am a lady if I do- and that was twenty three point. Ten or no not wasn't. That was speakers. Oh seven, so seven is waster. Oh yes, it was councillor mal. My lady waste reduction community investment program pilot face I also have some questions. Yeah.

F

I just like to get a little more indication of what all this is about in some layman's terms,.

I

So through you, madam chair, this is a program that was originally approved in the long term, waste management strategy that was approved by council in 2016. Essentially, it's it's a community outreach program where we will work with the community who can put in applications to do certain activities on behalf of solid waste, to help improve diversion, reduce contamination, implement programs. They have to apply through this program. The applications will be reviewed and screened for appropriateness and you'll, see in the attachment, there's a whole bunch of different criteria, including things like replicability.

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So we want to make sure that if they're undertaking a program, we can take the knowledge from that program and then apply it to a whole bunch of other different types of situations, maybe different buildings, different organizations and there's a panel that we'll go through and review all those applications. So, in essence, in very simple terms, this is a little bit of seed money to community organizations who are gonna do all the work on behalf of solid waste.

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They just need some initial starter money to get going and then all the results we can use to improve our programs community.

F

Organizations, what does that mean so.

I

These could be through you, madam chair. These could be different types of not-for-profit organizations, different types of community associations. These are not for-profit enterprises. These are schools could apply to something like this, but these are not-for-profit. This is not intended to. You know: do additional research or studies or to to make large-scale investments. This is really for ground based community type organizations to be able to apply.

F

Give me this some of that criteria of who can apply. That I mean are we are we now gonna give more money to.

I

So if you can refer to councillor to page 2 of attachment 1 to the document it gives the list of who would be eligible, Anila ineligible in table 1, so resident, tenant, neighbourhood and business associations, service clubs, ethnic community organizations, registered charitable organizations, environmental organizations, school groups, clubs and councils and then on the right column of that table. You'll see all the different groups that are not eligible.

F

Are they groups that are gonna are fighting City Hall regularly? Are we giving money to people to help fight City, Hall? Well,.

I

We would, through the application and screening we'd, be looking at well so I put.

F

It you know where I'm get your own coming from madam chair somebody's got to talk about this stuff right and, and it's getting ridiculous.

I

I agree: councillor I'm, probably not the one to talk about it. Well, somebody should, but, but but what what I can say is we will be reviewing these applications for their technical credibility and their applicability to the city. The return on investment to make sure that we are spending money appropriately, we're giving it to community organisations that are quite willing to work with us to help improve not only their community but to generate results that we can then transfer into other parts of the community.

F

I, don't know sometimes I feel like this committee doesn't want to help me when I when I talk about these kinds of things, but we're this is the part that I just don't want. So how do we stop giving money to community groups as we're putting it as we're calling it whose objective is just keep fighting City Hall?

F

How do we stop that in a motion here, because that's what I want to do? I, don't want them to be qualified for taxpayers dollars to fight the taxpayer. That's what we're doing here. So how do I stop it with emotion,.

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How to stop it with emotion, with a speech yeah.

C

During me for five minutes in the barn burner, okay, I'm gonna have some questions. Sorry, if they're redundant to the.

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General manager that question in terms of how I could stop it with emotion, right, yeah,.

C

Of course, with as part of your speech, you placed the motion and then you in you, then you speak I, don't.

F

Want to ruin the whole report. I just want I just want the ability and I need staff to help me with it. The ability to stop money to go to organizations to fight City, Hall, okay, stop the report. That's.

C

It quite that's a speech, not a question we're in question period: okay, so I have a question and I'm sorry if they're redundant, because I was paying attention to other issues, but what's a total amount that you're looking at packaging out to these as part of these grants? What's the total figure? Madam.

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Chair, it's a maximum one hundred and fifty thousand dollars per year and the maximum one individual application can receive is twenty five thousand dollars and.

C

Is that new money, or is it part and parcel of your current operating our capital or where is it coming from that.

I

Money was actually part of the long-term sways management strategy line item in the 2017 budget, so that money's already been approved for 2017. It's unlikely at this point that we'll be able to spend it in seventeen, but it's also included in the capital budget for eighteen and future years and.

C

Can you cite an example where you think this might have been effective, like I'm thinking of the apartment in the East End, my East dish, end of the city we're real roll? They were a role models on.

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We've got a number of buildings that have been extremely successful in diverting the amount of material we need to go in there and understand how they've accomplished that what sort of processes they put in place they've been quite willing to actually do that. Work on our behalf and sit down with us and even take what they've done and take it to the next level, but what they don't have to they're willing to volunteer all the time that they've got what they don't have. Is the money set aside to actually take it to that next level?

I

So what we're looking at doing is providing them the the initial money that they need, and in some cases it's only a thousand or two thousand dollars that we'll see in these applications to really take it to the next level. Then we can understand, what's been successful and apply that to other similar buildings. Okay,.

C

And so how many groups might be funded than in a given year, given the the capped of 150 and the twenty-five thousand max actually yeah.

I

So we could see six applications that are twenty five thousand dollars or we could see up to one hundred and fifty at a thousand. We don't really know right now until the applications start to flow in and and we do, the assessment review. Okay,.

C

And to address counselor mammal lady's questions, which I know where he's coming from these groups would be tactical in nature like these would be groups that would are creating models that could be really become best practices for other multi rezzed, Wellings single-family home across the cities. That is that the other.

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Absolutely that's correct, except.

C

He's not listening to me. So that's a problem. I.

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Asking questions on your behalf and okay. So that's that's what I guess that's what he was getting at so I'll. Try to explain that in my speech. Okay, thank you. Any other questions, kind of sir holiday good.

D

Chair and thank you to council mammal Edie is piqued my interest in this. If I've got this right, 150,000 maximum 25 per group, so that means there could be as few as six recipients or by the sounds of it. Many I guess.

D

My basic question is: if you approve a bunch of projects through the year, you don't materialize, you then go down the list looking to spend the whole 150,000 or do you set a bar and you give these grants out and what's left at the end of the year is what's left at the end of the year through.

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You, madam chair money, mine, you know that would be what's left at the end of the years left at the end of the year. We wouldn't fast track applications or try to push things through purely to spend limit. We want to make sure they're good applications, because.

D

I'm aware of other other places where a pool of grant money is given and then suddenly at the end of the year, there's this scramble to spend it on the people at the bottom of the list, whether or not they met the standards of the application process without naming names. So I can be sure that, although it's a budget of 150,000, you may not spend it all each year you.

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Have my assurance, counselor, okay,.

D

The other so there's no ratification process at the at the council or committee level. I'm, assuming with this report you're asking for a delegation of that 150 maximum 25 and then it goes to I. Guess it's a working committees, a working committee of staff's discretion to award this money. Yes,.

I

The recommendation is to give the authority to the deputy city manager of cluster B to identify the review panel of three members and solid waste will provide the technical expertise to review the applications so.

D

The last question I'm a struggle here to articulate it carefully when we're dealing with solid waste, we're dealing with stuff and we're dealing with places. So you can point on a map you can say you know this issue is within this geographic boundary or at this address, if it's a multi res building the criteria in which you select initiatives, are they rooted in things and places or are they potentially rooted in ideas and that's I?

D

Guess where you go along the continuum of a group or somebody that wants to transfer an idea all around the city? Frankly, I'm more concerned about places and things where we can really see and touch and feel the tangible results you can measure the tangible results. You can say you reduce this much waste or you diverted this much waste. Can you assure me that that's what you're looking at is those tangible things where, where you can, you can quantify the delivery at the end of the day, yeah.

I

Through you, madam chair I'm, certainly looking for the tangible items and and the criteria that we've laid out in the attachment I think certainly reflects that. We want hard programs that are met with measurable results so that we understand exactly what the return on the investment is for doing that. If that doesn't necessarily say, though, if there's an idea that comes forward that leads to a tangible activity, those may be considered, but the primary focus is on tangible activities and programs that can be replicated somewhere else and.

D

If I could put through you, madam chair to the general manager, I think that's when people get really upset with the government is when money goes out and there isn't a way to measure it back. Can you give me some examples of the tangible results that you will use to first screen the applications and and then be evaluate the applications as they're seen through? Is it you know, tons diverted participation rates? You know what are the things you're looking for? If you can give me some ideas through.

I

You, madam chair, yes, both of those the tonnage diverted the amount of contamination reduced. The amount of additional materials captured the participation rates within the buildings, the cost per ton diverted cost per contaminated ton reduced those types of quantifiable metrics are absolutely going to be part of the reporting process that we're asking for from each of the buildings. So once they get this money, they then have to continually report back to us on a key set of quantifiable metrics again as part of this measurement of the return on the investment last.

D

Question I just want to understand the scope of this program, so it's multi-year. Will you come back at some point in time and talk to us about what you did with the money and will we have another chance to consider whether or not this was money well spent at the end of the day, absolutely.

I

Madam chair so will will report back we'll get reports back on an annual basis on the use of this money. This is included in the capital program, but it'll have to be approved on an annual basis to continue through this program and then at the five-year review of the long-term waste management strategy, which is now only three and a half years away.

I

We will do a complete, revisit and review of this process, but but from my perspective, if we find through year one that this has not been successful or not seeing the types of applications or the the value in doing this will discontinue the program. That's.

D

Through the budget process, I guess yes,.

C

Okay, thank you councillor Holliday, so we're gonna move to speakers. I'm gonna say a few words. It comes from a milady. Anybody else would like to so I'll just quickly say that I I do understand where councillor Manolete he's coming from I have I have concerns generally with the community funding grants that we have here at City, Hall, I, think they're.

C

Quite frankly, a little out of control I think we're spending a lot of money on things that maybe don't have any return and I think there's even some abuse and so I understand why councillor m'lady might not be too keen about this. I think this is a very different endeavor. This is I want to call it kind of boots on the ground approach to finding ways to educate whether there's single-family dwelling homes or multi-use ready, no matter what type of home you live in.

C

It's it's an opportunity to educate people on waste reduction, which is a not getting enough, not really getting highlighted enough in this city as a problem, because we're way below our target our annual targets- and we have a long term waste management strategy that this body adopted and we're not really getting where we need to go so. I also am a bit hesitant about this, because it seems like again we're money and we've been doing a lot of that lately.

C

Spending money, spending, money, spending, money, saying yes to everything and I think that you know generations down the road are going to pay for for these years. But having said that, I do think this will we're gonna measure this we're going to fully assess this. It is a small amount of money and we won't continue it if it's not effective and if it's not really producing results.

C

I think we have that commitment from staff that they're going to be on top of this and watching this unfold, so I will be supporting this, but I will also be keeping my eye on on this program.

C

Counselor mama, lady.

F

Who I do have an attempt at a motion, madam chair and Knight I'm, sorry for having slighted you? If that's how you felt but I think that it's worth noting the motion, what the motion will try to do is just stop. Stop funding any organization that spends the money in fighting City, Hall and and that's what I'd like to do. That's right! That's why I pointed this out, because you're right, madam madam chair, should I introduce the motion first unsure.

F

If it's ready, I the language just speaks to that, but I'll let the clerk read it she's got. It is.

C

It in order I, don't.

F

Know your the chance.

C

Well, it just sounds a bit broad: what you're you're, making it sound like I,.

F

Did earlier, I did ask for some help from staff, and you said just do it when you speak so I did it when I speak.

C

Okay, we have a motion before us. Please read it thoroughly, it's very little. Okay, so, okay.

F

So without anybody's help and and I'm a little discouraged that I did reach out to staff and the clerk and the chair to find some language that would would be acceptable.

F

None of nobody came to my defense, so I'm voting for this good.

F

So let's be really clear. You were right about one thing, madam madam chair: we're spending a lot of money, especially lately. In fact, we've spent over a billion dollars more than we did. Last administration we've increased our budgets next year.

F

That's gonna double, so we are spending a lot of money and some of that money is going towards groups that are well organized know what they're doing they've they're able to somehow squeeze the grants from the city in every single department, and they go to all the same kinds of groups in the City of Toronto who in return, take that money and tell City Hall what they're doing wrong and that happens regularly and I think that while the endeavors here and staff have something that they want to do, I think I applaud them.

F

For for thinking about that, when it comes to you know, landlords, and you know that sort of concept where you're trying to educate people around our process.

F

I think you're gonna find that some of these environmental groups, for instance, that you're choosing to give money to will try to filter out that particular portion of money and bring it right back to City Hall on the front steps and tell us how bad we are. So that's what I want to stop at City Hall with this, because it happens regularly through other grants and other money that we give people you may as well.

F

Just just tell people to just slap you in the face and then and then give them the ten thousand dollars after they do it or vice versa. But that's the intent here. I! Don't want to take up all your time. I! Just it's I just want to be cautious and stop pulling out money to groups that are well organized and our advocates for their causes. Okay,.

C

If there's any other spies or any other speakers, no, so all this this is being proposed. As an amendment to the report comes from Emily correct, so all I will ask for a vote on the amendment.

C

It's an order. The clerk wrote us I did not that carries and the report that's before us. The item as amended is the proper proof. So, let's see what did we got here? We got just. We got a unanimous vote. Okay, congratulations to staff on that. We're going to move to our next item: PW 23.8, free-floating, car share pilot and interim policy, and we do have deputations on this. So we'll start there. Our first speaker is Justin Van death or no I'm. Sorry, it's not that's! Another item. Our first speaker is Kevin.

C

Mclaughlin advisor founder of auto share. Welcome Kevin.

C

So you have five minutes Kevin to speak and only five minutes. We have to cut you off at 5:00. Unfortunately, you can watch the clock here which I'll set in a minute and your mics on. Is it I.

J

Think so, yes, okay.

C

So you can go ahead, good.

J

Morning, counselors and staff, my name is Kevin McLaughlin and I. First came City Hall to talk about car sharing almost 19 years ago with auto share today, I'm here speaking on behalf of community, which is a company based in Montreal and is the oldest car sharing company in North America at about 23 years old.

J

We want to thank you for, and especially staff for all the work on this report and, and we certainly support it and applaud the opportunity to bring more shared mobility to the city and and give people and businesses the opportunity to not own a vehicle and and get around the city. I've included a bit of a presentation. Unfortunately, my co-workers is stuck in travel right now.

J

It gives a bit of a background on community, which is one of the few car shares that combines both return trip, car sharing, which is like Zipcar and auto, share where the car has a specific spot in the neighborhood and free-floating cars, which is what the report today is talking about where the vehicles move around the cities and- and you can drive it want one way.

J

The important thing here is that car sharing, numerous studies have shown that car sharing helps people live without owning a car and therefore helps to reduce the demand for parking in our neighborhoods and in our cities, as well as bringing other environmental and economic benefits.

J

A couple of things in the report that are that we'd like to highlight one, is that a recommended price has not been set and, in this document, I've included some prices from other cities which were not shown in the report, including Montreal and I'm.

J

Sorry that not numbered here, but towards the back about 10 pages in Quebec, City, Montreal, Halifax, Victoria, Vancouver and Calgary, which range from $30 a month to excuse me 30 dollars a year to 11 over $1100 a year or in the case of Victoria and some of the US cities a higher rate. But that also includes metered parking, which I understand that this report is not including, and so I just wanted to highlight, that in terms of cost, and certainly we as a company are very focused on on delivering services to the community.

J

And we are our system works when the vehicles are moving around, so we'll certainly be very aware of any concerns about vehicles, so called clustering in neighborhoods and things like that. But we certainly look forward to producing some data from this pilot project if it's approved and looking at, for instance, the number of and and and hopefully even parking permits that have been returned from the people that are participating in this today.

J

Kim Yuna toe has over two thousand vehicles in eastern Canada in from Ottawa out to Halifax, as well as Paris France, and they would really love the opportunity to bring their service here to Toronto both free floating and return trip and improve the transportation and mobility in the City of Toronto. So thank you very much today, I'm certainly happy to answer any questions. Well,.

C

Thank you for being so succinct any questions. I have a question. So, oh you go ahead because you're visiting go ahead. Counselor Doucet, thank.

K

You very much so do you represent a cost share company right here in Toronto right now,.

J

No I personally don't work or represent a car sharing company in Toronto. My you know: I could be back here talking about ride hailing in a couple of months, but today I'm just helping my friends at community, so.

K

You right now in our report, we've got four companies working right now on in Toronto. Who would be if this goes through would qualify to get these free floating. So you don't have a company to add us to five companies. That's oh I! Guess I'm getting out the.

J

Community, oh I'm, not aware of what those what the four companies are I know that their zip car, an enterprising and car to go but kim yu-na toe is very interested to to participate and would certainly, for instance, if there was a start date of March. First would be here with with cars March. First, okay,.

K

So we could be looking at five companies and oh.

J

Yes, I mean we're here because I'm here speaking on behalf of community, oh because as a representative of the company, because they're very interested in coming to this city and I would certainly be helping them. Do that. Thank.

K

C

Okay, I've got a question for you, so my understanding is I've heard a rumor in this building that aloft a lot of counselors are very the environment, are actually opposed to this and I. Don't know if that's true or false, but I wanted to ask you to speak to them through. This question is how does this benefit the environment? You alluded to that in your presentation, because my understanding it does yes.

J

Well, the the main idea is that through availability of car sharing services, people are able to access a car when they need one without needing to own a car, and today there are probably 1,500 or more shared vehicles in the city of Toronto and on average each one of those vehicles takes anywhere from two to ten other vehicles off the road, which means less traffic, less pollution, less demands on our neighborhood parking, so, for instance, I live in Cabbagetown and I, don't own a car, and so you know without and use a number of shared services to help.

J

My family and I move around the city, and so you know less less. The number one indicator or vehicle usage is is ownership and so the as we get people to use other kinds of services, then they can make that decision for each trip based on on the need of that trip, rather than the investment they've made in a vehicle and insurance and all the rest of the sunk costs that go into owning a car so that you know when you own a car.

J

The next trip is basically almost free, so people tend to use a vehicle in that manner. So.

C

You're saying it does have significant environmental benefits, it.

J

C

It does reduce carbon emissions, absolutely.

J

C

The very people who talk about that at Council all the time they're, not here right, surprised- are opposed to this a.

J

Number of a number of studies have shown that that a typical car share member can reduce their carbon emissions by over one ton a year there. These are studies, I, believe it's in this presentation, but certainly there studies that community has participated with at universities, proper studies, my understanding that some of the counselors that are most concerned about it are the counselors that live downtown and in the densest neighborhoods and have you know, tend to get more calls in the evening from people who can't find a spot on their on the street.

J

You know the larger issue issue is here is that our city becomes more dense and as we change the way we move around, we may need to. You know again look at a kind of a fairness policy. As you know, more people are living in the city and and want to use the the streets. We may not be able to kind of claim the right to the parking spot in front of our street, but again the key here is that and I believe this study from this pilot will show.

J

We will reduce the number of the demand for on street parking private on street parking by creating opportunities, better opportunities to access these kinds of mobility services, and this kind of on street parking permit. If you will will allow people to use those services, okay,.

C

I've got one more question: the same same councillors, often talk about different modes of transportation and how we have to move away from the car and look at all different modes of transportation and promote those I came down in a packed subway today. Couldn't move your colleague couldn't make it here today because of congestion in gridlock. Will this help with congestion and gridlock.

J

It absolutely will help. Will you wake up after the the pilot starts and and have a better commute? Absolutely not. But you know this is one tool in the in the in the toolbox and as we design our cities for more shared mobility, more people are going to be able to live without a car and and when you live without owning a car, you can make a choice to to walk, or you know, use a shared bike or use your own bike or whatever.

J

It is based on that particular trip, and so the more people that that don't own a car, the less likely they are to jump in their car, because it's there and easy and- and so yes, this certainly will contribute to it. But again, it's part of a part of a bigger F.

C

Right: okay, thank you. Any other questions, for we have a counselor counselor Holliday has a question for you. Thank.

D

You chair, thank you for your presentation, so you touched on something that came up in the past and that is counselors that are concerned with parking and already congested neighborhoods. What's before us is not a permit to park anywhere, it's it's a free-floating parking permit. So how do you deal or how do you plan to communicate with your customers about where they can and cannot leave a vehicle and when they don't follow the rules? How are you going to address that? Do you have a system in place? Do you go and move the car?

D

Do you have GPS technology that a little alarm flashes at some central computer that says this cars not supposed to be here and I will put to you that, yes, you may get a ticket, you may get a ticket I mean there's a. We have to go through considerable effort to issue those tickets, but it doesn't deal with the issue of the very angry people in the neighborhood where something is blocked or their driveways blocked or there's. Some other problem help give me some assurance that that you've got this part covered.

J

Thank you so, with all deference to the existing free-floating service in the city, which I happen to to use as a customer, the way they've approached- let's say perhaps their frustration with not having this kind of permit before, is that they've communicated to their their customers that basically they'll pay certain kinds of parking tickets, and you know I, do think that they're gonna have to recommit to their members to get them to start. You know using this permit process rather than the old the existing situation.

J

Community all has the the the opportunity to start fresh with their customers and communicate. The idea that that that that, if approved this would be an opportunity to park in residential permit areas, as approved at certainly blocking driveways or anything else is not you know, is- is no less acceptable from from somebody in a shared vehicle than it is in any other a vehicle, and, and certainly you know, tickets and things like that that people get are passed on to them so that they have the same and in fact with an administrative fee.

J

So it's actually more expensive. So certainly, you know the same kinds of incentives or distance. You know negative incentives apply to our customers and, and we certainly would communicate them with about you know about all those kinds of things all the vehicles do have modern technology in them. So we can track if there's certain problem areas or something like that, we can set alarms that people are leaving vehicles in you know a hospital zone or you know whatever it might.

J

Whatever concerns might be be raised, and you know again for us, this system works when the vehicles move so having vehicles all clustered together, or you know, sitting in a place from for a long periods of time is not in our interest and certainly the business is run to move those around I.

D

Have one other question and I'm just going to place it because I'm not sure of my time here but which is okay, I, think I'm within the time here, one of the one of the troubles no well I'll behave. I'll behave.

D

One of the troubles that we've had is that certain areas of the city are sold out in terms there's a wait list to get a parking space. So what do you do if you rent a car or if you got visitors, you go and you purchase a temporary permit through this city, which I understand a little bit of work to do, and you put this paper in your and so on.

D

Would your company be attracted to a system that worked a little better with you with respect to temporary permits, so it really boils down to. There will be certain places in the city that are oversold you just can't park. The car is, there's no space and and and I, don't I. Think the neighbors in that area would appreciate it, but there are certain places in the city with availability, maybe many places in the city with availability.

D

So what I'm sort of going out here is: maybe a system- that's not completely free-floating but is free floating but restricted, and then you pay as you use those spots. Is that something that would attract your company to the city or would you just find that to come.

J

You know, certainly, we would look at any opportunity to bring the the business to to the city and you know, obviously being able to communicate clearly to to customers where they can and can't park how the system works and that sort of stuff is you know, ISM is important, and- and you know if such a system were in place, I think we'd look at it and trying to understand how how it would work within our system and that sort of thing I think you know what is important.

J

For instance, I went to dinner the other night in the beach and I know that the beach also has my understanding, is difficulty parking and and that sort of stuff, a local tourism economy and, and that's that sort of thing.

J

But if we can't bring these kinds of shared services to communities like that, they won't get the opportunity to live without a car or or let's say they won't get the incentive to to live without a car, and so I think we have to also consider that- and it is one of the benefits of running a pilot project and collecting the data and and and reporting back is trying to look at the opportunity to. In fact, you know get people to to some folks who are parking right now.

J

Certainly you know when we get a huge snow day. It's amazing. You know you get three feet of snow, it's amazing how few vehicles actually need to move, and- and so you know, maybe some of those vehicles could in fact just be retired.

J

Thank you very much.

C

We have an another deputy site and that is Marco of Avani. It's vice president strategic development, Singh.

C

Also he's who you refer to okay? Is there anybody else that we've missed? Okay, that's great, so we're going to I'm going to ask the committee. The general manager of Transportation has a short presentation on this. With the committee like to hear that presentation, or it's up to you I'm, trying to be inclusive I'm, seeing a head shaking yes and I had shaking no.

C

What do? How do people feel.

C

Move on okay, all right.

C

How long is the presentation, ten slides.

B

C

Sure can your the question is whether you could just do a shorter version of the like yeah.

C

Okay, take it away.

L

Thank you, that was the smoothest technology transfer, I've I've known I'm impressed yeah I am as well. Thank you, okay, let's in the interest of time, let's move beyond the overview. The first part is talking about what is car sharing currently in Toronto today, the existing model. We have a number of cars share vehicle parking areas.

L

In fact, we have 40 of such areas in the city, where it's a permanent parking space, that's reserved for a car share vehicle they launch and return to that same place, they're dedicated and they can't be used for other parking purposes, and that program has a permit fee and it generates about a hundred thousand an annual revenue for the city.

L

This program is allowed in residential parking areas.

L

However, there's some criteria around that it's not allowed to park or have a dedicated space in front of a single-family home and not in areas where there is an existing waitlist is councillor holiday, referred to in his remarks, and then there are some tears of annual fees that are related to the location of those parking spaces that get increasingly higher as the impact on the on the parking supply is perceived to increase so with the highest being when the space for a for a car share, space will eliminate or reduce a paid parking space.

L

Okay, some of the benefits of car sharing the the speaker referenced. A number of them there's been a relatively comprehensive study, completed and by the Transportation Research Board I believe in 2015 that identified some tangible outcomes about reduced vehicle ownership rates for car share members, reduce household transportation costs, reduced vehicle, kilometers traveled, some benefits related to reduction of greenhouse gas and emissions, and then a commensurate increase in walking, cycling and transit use. The report covers some of those pieces and references that document.

L

If that's a further interest to folks, we did a little bit of a look at other cities. We focused on the member pick-up and drop-off, which we have today versus the free-floating model, which again I, think the speaker referenced pretty appropriately and that you would pick it up from its existing space on the street and you could take it to any other space in the city.

L

That's currently the model that the company car2go uses in the city right now and the pilot would be to expand their ability to park in more locations than they can now without penalty. So we looked at Calgary, Vancouver Seattle. In DC, we looked at what kinds of existing permitted parking or parking restrictions they had in place, both in the resident residential and non-residential locations.

L

We looked at fees that were charged which were anywhere from you, know: $64 and 76 cents at the low end up to about $3,000 at the higher end, and then some of the other sort of unique components of those programs, some trying to gain some parody about on street versus off street spaces.

L

Again, some having a cap on the number of operators and a cap on the number of permitted spaces, as we've proposed and then other implications of what existing rules and enforcement components still apply. So those we use to really help us kind of frame up this policy directive, so the policy and the pilot. What we are proposing is that parking by these free-floating cars would be allowed in residential permit parking locations they'd be exempted from the three-hour time limits that there would be operators would be responsible for redistribution.

L

So we know that when we have heard that there's frustration when the cars cluster and we define clustering as more than two or two or more of any cars share vehicle from innings one Operator, that they would be responsible for redistribution of those vehicles that there'd be a cap. So there will be a cap on two thousand permits issued under this pilot. We would not exceed that cap, and so the first four companies that came through the door would would be eligible to participate in the pilot.

L

If they were ready to go, we would not increase that to another to another. Increment of 500, and we would propose the pilot run from a year march through April I- think it's really very valuable for us to gather more data and get more consultation with the community about how this can work. We hear really robust arguments on both sides of the equation about people who really want more access and people who are frustrated about impacts to existing parking.

L

We would require the carceral organizations to provide us with data on their fleet, their usage, both the origins and destinations, the percentage of the time that each vehicle was used. So we could really understand utilization how many vehicle kilometers were traveled and then the geographical distribution of members and then the number of members on a quarterly basis. So were those increasing based on additional access or not. If there was non-compliance, the ultimate enforcement would be the that we would be able to revoke the the permits from that company.

L

So if they were consistently not following the rules that were set out in the pilot, we would be able to revoke their permits and no longer have them operate, and then enforcement. The car share vehicles would still be subject to all parking regulations, so some of the questions that you refer to counselor about parking over driveways or parking and appropriately would still be via enforcement and then continue to work with police services to enforce that. Some of the issues that we have heard again, I mentioned clustering of car share vehicles.

L

Insufficient enforcement, which goes along with some of this redistribution and rebalancing. Some of the key destinations and special events bring more car share vehicles which, coincidentally, are some of the locations where there's very limited on street parking, and so that's proceed for those special events as being a real impact and then, as you mentioned, also some of the oversubscribed or wait-listed areas where you have permit parking people get very agitated about having what they perceive as other people parking on the streets there.

L

So we are proposing a policy for free floating car share in our report. We are also suggesting that we do additional consultation, both with residents and the car share industry and also I, would assume you know, businesses and some of our parking providers about the fees we've looked at a range of them. We think we've come in at a place that that will probably be workable.

L

We think they could range anywhere from 1,500 to 2,000 per vehicle, which would generate some additional revenue for the city and in the amount of three to four million dollars based on the 2000 permits.

L

If we had all four companies come forward, and then we would do evaluation both on the collection on complaints, whether compliance enforcement was working as as predicted in the model, I mean in the pilot, and we would conduct a survey about travel behavior and really use this as an opportunity to gain some more data before we were to move forward with a more formal policy directive and program.

C

Unvarying quickly done, we have a question for you come from councillor Doucet thank.

K

You very much that's good because it did answer some of my questions, which I now will not ask you touched on. The main concern I have is permit parking, so I have a map of my permit park. Streets I, also very kindly from transportation, have a list of the streets which right now have waiting lists.

K

How will we look after the residents who have paid to have a parking spot? I'm talking about streets, specific parking permit parking zone? We have a bit more flexibility, so, for instance, streets specific, there's, 20 spots 20 permits out there right now. We have 4 companies looking at be getting involved in this free floating, which I do support if each of them only part. One car on that Street, a resident who has paid for Street specific parking will have to find somewhere else to park, because enforcement is good in my neighborhood they will get ticketed.

K

They will have to pay that ticket, even though they paid for a permit. My understanding is some of our car share. People pay the ticket for their clients. How are we going to protect the residents right now on these weighted waitlisted streets, which counsel Holliday was asking about? Can we do an exemption and that we would review it every six months to see when there is no longer a waitlist? How are we going to protect those residents.

B

Through you chair, it's a difficult question: it's one of the issues that we would want to explore through a pilot project, one of the the ways to address the situation that that you've described where a person who has a permit on a on a permit. That is valid only for that one's read that perhaps we can have an expedited process to have that ticket cancelled in the event that the reason they got their ticket was as a result of a car to go or or a free floating car shared vehicle.

B

But we haven't fully resolved that question. That's just one of the ideas we've floated around and I think the it's one of the things that we would like to understand: what the level of impact through a pilot project and it cannot be managed. And how can we manage it so.

K

You're saying your weight to the pilot project for me to be able to tell you what what I can tell you now how my residents will respond through.

B

Your chair, there are a few issues of concern that have been raised, that we don't have an answer to that. We can have an answer through a policy lens that we want to understand how this would work in practice to understand what the best way to solve. That would.

K

Be what is the percentage of permits sold right now on a street where a temporary parking permit cannot be achieved by someone visiting? What's the what's that percentage right now,.

M

Counselor, the percentage is 90%, so once we're at 90% capacity for the sale of regular term permits, we stop the issuance of temporary permits in order to allow sufficiency for the residents themselves.

K

So right now a visit to a true resident on a street. If it's 90%, they cannot get a temporary permit either correcting.

K

We I I do like in your report that get me clustering so right now, if a company has two cars or more on a street, they can do their GPS and they know exactly where their little cars are. As my understanding they have to have someone come and move that car. What was it within two hours? Is that 24/7, or is that only during permit only time, I.

B

Believe it would be at all times and I'm, seeing a nod from my staff. We hadn't discussed that at.

K

B

K

Again, if it's three hour parking, they have to move the car after three hours if it's two hour parking one hour park. If there is an issue of clustering.

B

Taking place so so that is the issue. We want to make sure that we are addressing when vehicles are clustered, it doesn't serve the company well, and it certainly doesn't serve the neighborhood well yeah.

K

Okay, thank you very much.

C

Councillor Davis.

H

I wanted to ask about the fees we don't have any fee structure here at all and in fact we won't see it until the budget process and I then struggling with this. How do we make a decision about whether to proceed? If we don't have the basic financial information about the revenue, the and the amount of money we're going to make out of this through.

L

You, madam chair I, I, think that our proposal focuses really on the policy, specifically with the budget bee and the fees. We need to do further consultation to hit that right fee and so I, don't remember. If the report identifies whether, given the budget, the outcome of the budgeting process there'd be the ability to move forward or cancel the pilot at that point to move forward, if not a viable outcome from the budget process. But we do believe we need to do further consultation on the fees before before. Maybe the.

H

Question of whether the city is going to be able to add additional enforcement, add the additional costs associated with implementation and how much money how much revenue will be generated. We don't know that until the fees are set, but that's just one of them. That's. Why I think it's premature what we have before us and I? Don't I, don't know that we have a sufficient information if.

B

I'm a councillor: what we're asking for in this report is that the the policy for free floating car share be adopted and that we be directed to consult to to indicate consultation about the fee, not they're, connected introduction of a pilot wouldn't be approved until after the budget process actually approved it. Those.

H

B

Connected as far as I'm concerned, it's a staged process, you're. Absolutely right now.

H

Okay, the second thing do we know anything about the profit of these companies. How much are they making on our streets using our streets? No I know when we introduced the sign, bylaw and the sign fee. We have some information, we're doing more about the kind of profit that's being generated. We don't have any information.

H

You it assumes there will be this report assumes there will be a certain redistribution expected.

H

How are you enforcing that? What levers do you have to enforce that through.

L

You, madam chair, so currently, and we would expect that the company would have provisions to do rebalancing and they typically have teams of the what they believe is an adequate number of folks to redistribute those vehicles. If they continue to cluster on streets and they don't move them, we can revoke their permits. But.

H

L

The old time I.

H

Mean Ted, you know, are there thresholds or how are you measuring I mean one of the things is right now they could not redistribute, and so they just said we'll leave them a will, will risk the tickets. So what what's the difference now? Why wouldn't they just risk the tickets and pay tickets.

L

And I'm think currently they pay tickets and locations where they are it's identified by either a resident or someone else that they don't want. The parking on that street, perhaps in some of those permit parking areas, and so I also think that there is a time you know the the the company would need to be able to staff up appropriately to be able to respond in a timely fashion to that clustering issue, if they, if they wanted it to be a successful program.

L

Moving forward, so I think if that was their interests and they would have some incentive to staff up appropriately for that redistribution. But.

H

There's nothing to enforce other than revocation just.

L

If they, if they violate the law, they would get a ticket like any other, and if they were continuing to not comply with the terms of the pilot on clustering continuously, we would revoke their permits and their ability to participate in the pilot. Okay, the.

H

Other thing is that identifies that there are problem areas like Exhibition, Place and others. What are you recommending to prevent and solve the those congestion type problems in those areas.

L

Those are through you, those are some of the issues. We've actually identified them up front as issues that need to really be identified and and managed through the pilot project.

L

We don't have any great great options for restriction, because the the whole idea is that, would we see an uptick in free-floating car share use and therefore a commensurate reduction in people either either giving up a car or having no need for a second car, and so there is a concern that having restrictions on where people can park, their car share vehicles is impacting their ability to use the system, and so we really need to test it. Sort of broadly without restrictions to see what the outcomes would be.

L

We we fully understand that there are some areas of the city where there are special event, sort of problems that occur where a lot of people cluster and that there are very significant concerns from residents about that and so I think. Through the pilot, we would be looking to manage that through enforcement, if we had to work collaboratively with the police to understand what we could do with regard to focused enforcement. In that location, we could, how could you.

H

Deal with enforcement when they have a right to park there.

B

The clustering issue would still be around against the terms of the pilot, so they wouldn't have that right to cluster so that if it's one vehicle, there's no there's.

H

No ability to enforce it, how are you going to in first of all define what is clustering.

K

B

Defined clustering in the report is more than one vehicle from a certain company. All I would get any given Street. Okay,.

H

And so what will happen? It's.

K

For 13, oh, we can't see this.

K

H

Clocks aren't working.

H

So just to clarify, so these cars will only be.

B

Allowed to park on streets that have permit parking. Is that correct? Yes,.

H

L

You they'll be allowed to park on any Street.

L

Where parking is permitted, like waiting for the other shoe to drop right, got your attention so on streets, where it.

B

Cuz in in my area, I have streets that there's no permit parking people kind of know where their parking spots are they that, if there's one of those cars parked there that goes over.

L

Three hours, because that's how people usually park it'll be ticketed or.

B

You're absolutely right counselor. It would still need to comply with the terms of the parking in that location. In the case of permanent parking streets, it would have a permit to park on those streets. Okay, okay, thank you.

C

There's just an issue with the mics here.

K

Could we just get clarification? Sorry you so it counts last a question where they could park only in permitted areas, and one said yes, one and then you said anywhere people can park. Is that permitted areas? Thank you just wanted to clarify. Okay,.

C

Other questions from the committee seeing no I, Oh counselor holiday, I'm. Sorry, you did you did say you would like to ask questions. Go ahead so.

D

Just to be really crisp on that point, this is really important in a ward where there is no permit parking right now. It's only covered by the three hour by law will car2go be allowed to park for more than three hours under the scheme.

B

No, those vehicles would still need to comply with the parking regulations on that street. So if it's a three hour restriction, they would have to comply with three hour restriction, so.

D

The change of the bylaw alludes to relief from the three hour restriction. Can you explain how that interfaces with the other changes to I think it's chapter 9 25 regarding permits. I need to be really crisp on this because it was a question and I have some other stuff. I want to ask now.

B

Events, did you want to speak in terms of the technical modifications to the bylaw sure.

I

So basically, they are exempt from the three-hour limit only in permit parking areas. Okay, in all other areas, they have to comply with. The bylaw regulations that are in place got eight if they're in a pain, display area and they want to Beit they'd- have to pay a fee just like anyone else.

C

D

So my other question I wanted it's something: I brought up the last time. This came to the committee. I want to understand a little bit better if I, rent a car, not a car sharing car, but if I rent, a car and I want to go home for the night and there's permit parking on my street. What do I do I get a temporary permit right. So can you explain to me how do I get a temporary permit and what is it cost.

M

Its if the street is designated under the permit parking program- and you don't own a car, but you have a history of renting the. What we do to accommodate those residents is that you know they would apply for a regular term parking permit the most inexpensive permit that we have six month terms. They represent their driver's license and they would also present a history of their rental vehicles from the rental company. We would provide them with a permit that says rental auto this way they could move that permit from one rental vehicle to another. Okay,.

D

What, if I, what, if I'm more casual than that like to what do I, do to get a temporary permit? I just I know it's a process out there, but I just want to make a point. The committee, which is.

M

D

M

Would go online access 24/7 and you can the address of the property if there's space available, you're able to purchase the permit for one day, two days or one week periods. What.

D

Does it cost very varies, that's okay, yeah.

M

So for a one-day permit, we're looking at nine dollars and 23 cents, a 2-day permit, $13.85 and a one week permit $21.63, okay,.

D

So I guess the last question from a business to business or sorry from a government to business perspective or an economic development perspective. Is there any opportunity for us to interface a little bit better with businesses that have the need for temporary parking? One of those businesses could be a car sharing. Company I would recognize that it's probably cumbersome to phone in a car when you've got a fleet every time you need to have an on-the-spot you need to park overnight.

D

Is there room in the system to move the bar a little bit forward to have an online system or a direct interface with one of these companies so that they could purchase temporary permits as the need comes up and maybe even transfer them within the day, so that they're not paying twice for the same car? But do we have some room with a little bit of thought or development? Is there technology out there? Maybe.

M

Just to clarify, are you counsel, are you speaking about temporary permits for streets under the power parking program or temporary permits for all streets in the city, temporary.

D

Streets under the parking program, okay,.

M

So we have an online system now with that 24/7 access, CarShare members, okay, they they themselves can purchase the permits if they decide to keep these short-term rentals that they have if they decide to bring it home. Okay with them, keep it overnight. They have the ability now to do it. Okay, what we find is normally these short-term rentals folks are not bringing them home to car share companies.

M

If they're going to budget rent-a-car enterprise- yes, occasionally they will bring it home free weekend, use for example, and and they have this twenty-four system at their disposal and they are using it. Okay,.

D

Thank you. Okay,.

C

I've got a question for you.

C

Sure it doesn't matter, you go ahead, just.

N

To crisp it up a touch so I take one of these cars and I and I go in I park it in front of councilor holidays and now deputy mayor holidays house, and it's got three three hour parking right. So I leave the car there and I'm and I might go visit his neighbor because we're having a party next door and three hours go by now he's getting really annoyed right.

N

Nobody else has come to pick up the car because nobody else has needed it, so it sits there for those three hours and then beyond right. So so now he calls parking enforcement right. So parking enforcement comes out two hours later and marks the tires on that car right. Then, the supposedly they're supposed to come back three hours later to see if the cars moved at all right. Okay, so let's say the car hasn't moved its sat there now for five, eight hours right, I'm a three hour limit.

N

So now they issue that car ticket correct, okay, so I'm, assuming that the company then passes it back on to me, is the last user of that car right? No can't right, okay, so they just kind of like sort of accumulate those tickets and then they negotiate them with us. At some point, like the courier company, do at the end of the day right they'll say: look I got $100,000 worth the tickets, but you know what court time legal time officer time everyone else's time. So we'll go like you know.

N

You know ten percent on this and we'll pay we'll settle this for, like you know, I'm.

J

N

Just maybe you can add a little crispness to that scenario and what happens then through.

L

You, madam chair, I, think this is the similar challenge, even if it wasn't a car share vehicle about the time that it takes to get enforcement to happen, and so that's always going to be a challenge. I think we had sort of kicked around the idea of of having the ability to have the person who was gonna Lodge. The complaint in this case counselor holiday, to call the car share company directly, so they could get out and rebalance it and meet their terms in terms of rebalancing within a two year two hour time frame.

L

My understanding is that currently car2go is paying the full price of the tickets that that their members are are gathering from parking in places where there is existing. Permit parking, I, don't know for sure all the details of that. But that's what.

N

Well, anyway, that really wasn't the real part of the question: I just I'm, just kind of trying to understand they're trying to make it a little crisper. That's all so! I I go out and I take one of these cars and I and I go to a I'm late for a bluejay game and.

F

N

And then I and then I sort of leave it on on the side of the road on Blue Jay way. What happens in that case like where I'm not supposed to leave it, but because it's not my car and because I don't really care if it gets towed or if it gets ticketed, I, say: okay, then too bad, so sad, right, I'm late for the game, so I'm just going to the game right. What happens then? There's.

B

A few options that could happen through your charity that the car could get ticketed in towed or the crusher company could be able to know through their systems that that vehicle is in a place that shouldn't be in they'll rebalances.

N

B

Else could come along so.

N

What are the ramifications for me for for leaving a car there word it has the potential to be ticketed and towed like what? What what happens. They just cancel my membership or something I. Think.

L

They could take any number of I, don't know specifically. What would each car share company has in terms of their policies? I know that if you in some of like an enterprise car share, if you bring your vehicle back late, for example, you're charged a fee on top of that so I assume there's some framework of fees for various sort of scofflaw activities up and including at some point revoking membership. But I. Don't know that for sure, but I know that that for enterprise car so.

N

There would be a penalty to me or could potentially be a penalty to me like. Let's say that I would have to pay the car, towing, storage and parking, but the city might not necessarily recoup all that money right. Some of that money may actually stay with the company because they may, at the end of the day, sit down and negotiate with us right, because once they've accumulated a whole bunch of these charges, it becomes complicated in terms of collections right.

L

You bet I'm sure I mean yes complicated, but my understanding is, they are acquiring or massing tickets and then they're paying those penalties on a monthly basis. But.

N

But all of those things I, don't, although those things could happen right, I.

L

Can't really answer that I don't know the answer.

N

Just abroad just add a little clarity to it.

C

Thank you for that. Crispness.

G

C

So you've got a great chart slide here that talks about benefits and I'm. Wondering about that. So my understanding is this. Is this is part and parcel of the shared economy which everybody's talking about this day? This is, it's got traction it's we're not putting we're there, and but what I see from the benefits of this is that it reduces vehicle ownership.

C

It reduces household costs, it reduces vehicles and kilometers traveled, it reduces greenhouse gases and emissions, and it increases walking, cycling and transit users, which many of our colleagues are talking about all the time in the city that we need to do more of that, and this actually increases that. Why does this increase that walking, cycling and transit use through.

L

You, madam chair I, can speak to the general concept of that and I'll just use myself as an example, I think when people purchase a vehicle, they they pay a pretty hefty upfront cost, and so they then don't necessarily think as much about the number of times they're gonna use. It also sits idle for for a good chunk of most of their day, whether they're at work or were have you over overnight and so part of the.

L

The issue is that people who choose to use cars share for summer most of their trips, often tend to be more significant users of transit, walking and cycling. I think that we've seen in the cities that others have studied to look at these sort of outcomes of this, that they've seen an increase amongst members, not only a sort of reduction in vehicles or the the interest or willingness not to purchase a second vehicle, but also more robust use of walking, transit and cycling for more of their trips and I.

L

Think that's something that we would absolutely look at what the Toronto version of that is as well as part of this pilot. So we would want to look at members and we would want to identify what their other trips were as well.

C

Okay and this this trend- this is a trend, and this has been actually implemented as per your your slideshow here in a number of other cities, and it's worked, that's correct. It's about their best practices and through.

L

You I mean I think that the other cities we've looked at only four of them. We tried to focus our review on cities in Canada and then ones that had sort of robust or more longevity in their car sharing programs. I think we have seen that, especially in some of the denser neighborhoods, where parking is restricted. There are a lot more people who are joining car car share companies. They use it as sort of the concept of mobility as a service, depending on what trip you want to be taking.

L

You make the decision as to what's the most convenient way for you to get there and and car share has I think played into a very robust transportation economy in those cities that we've we've examined and others that we haven't looked at as well. So.

C

Ultimately, if this also will assist with congestion and gridlock, it will promote different types of transportation, modes, uses, etc and overall, probably contribute to a healthier city overall. That.

L

Is the that's what we are finding when we look at sort of the suite of tools that go beyond just owning your own vehicle, that the ability to have some choices and options mean that you might be more likely to walk cycle or take transit for your trip, which ultimately is going to take one or more cars off the road? I think there's counter arguments to that as well, but but I would suggest that that is what the studies have shown. Is that there's a more robust use of transit, walking and cycling?

L

I also think, as we look at the supply side of parking, especially in some of our denser buildings and denser neighborhoods, that there is a huge growth factor and less ability for people to store their own personal vehicles, which make it really an opportunity for them to be able to live in in some of our denser neighborhoods without actually having to own and store a car. Well,.

C

That's that's an excellent point because that's where a problem intensification is a mounting problem in the city. So that's actually interesting. Thank you for that. I'm just going to quickly ask a question for karmak councillor Carmichael grab the neighbourhoods that we represent. There is parking regulations related to the subway use, and so her question was related to that different times might be one hour or less or more. How would that impact those streets whether they've got per you know? They've got parking regulations to control and mitigate that free-floating.

B

Car sure companies would need to comply with the regulations on the street unless there is an residential permit parking, in which case they would comply with residential parking parking permit standards.

C

Okay. That concludes our questions. We're going to move to speakers is there any visitor speaker visitors that would like to speak councillor perks, what a surprise! Okay! You can go first and followed by councillor SOT. Thank.

O

You very much, madam chair. The issue of these floating car, rentals and I want to be very clear. This is rental, you know, as I, don't teach my kids, that sharing means letting one of the other kids use their toy for a price. This is someone who owns an asset and charges for the use of it. So it's car rental. Let's be clear about that. The there are a number of issues identified in the staff report on on this short-term car rental issue and a couple that were left out.

O

That I think we need to do a little bit more work on the staff report identifies three issues that they hope they'll be able to work out during the pilot for this one of them being the fact that occasionally, you get large bunches of cars on particular streets. Another being that there are some areas where already people who want a parking permit or wait-listed and the third being specifically the Canadian National Exhibition but I. Think more largely.

O

We should think in terms of special events and I want to speak to those quickly and then whether or not we're in a position where we can move forward and then give us some couple of thoughts on a few more pieces that are missing so in terms of special events at the CNE, for example, because everyone in in the whole region tries to drive into South Park Dale, all at once during the X. We have a regulation there that says only people who are residential permit holders can park there. The three-hour rule does not why?

O

Because otherwise, people would not be able to get home staff acknowledged that they don't know how this short-term car rental proposal will work there. They say they'll work it out during the pilot. Similarly, many of us father zones in our wards where people are currently waive must have been good faith. They've been waiting for an opportunity to get a parking permit. This will allow people to kyu-jong and offer no recourse to people who currently can't park anywhere near their home at all.

O

Third, there's the issue of the many cars in one place and we, you know, there's a hope that somehow we'll be able to deal with it. But if you look the only data we get from the short-term car rental companies is quarterly, and so maybe there'll be a complaint basis. I can tell you right now that, when a constituent of mine phones, 3-1-1 to say, there's a problem with over parking on my street, it is not dealt with within two hours. It's two hours before parking is note.

O

The parking staff are notified and if they have staff available, then they might go. I would feel more sanguine about the possibility of dealing with these during the pilot. If it wasn't for the record of the major short-term car rental company in the City of Toronto, car2go is a scofflaw company right now they routinely violate our parking regulations and encourage their customers to violate those regulations by parking where they're not allowed to every single day. Car2Go is encouraging Torontonians to break the law.

O

How on earth should I think we're going to come to an accommodation, solving the special event problem, the problem where there are not enough parking spaces for the existing residents and the problem of enforcement. Frankly, staff has to go back and give me answers on those questions before I'm prepared to open this public resource to this scofflaw company. Finally, there are some questions that are simply not dealt with. The first is there's no assessment of what other parking options are available.

O

I know that when I do work with a condominium application in my ward, we make an arrangement for car sharing and bike sharing spaces there. Similarly, I have a fairly healthy store of streets where there is available parking, we could be providing dedicated spaces, and finally, we have yet to get any advice on what are the legal options for the City of Toronto when a firm deliberately breaks our parking loss? It applies in this issue and props. More importantly, it applies also with delivery vehicles and postal trucks and all that stuff there's not been enough.

O

Work done here, I think before we go ahead with this pilot, and you know the rental short-term rentals may be a benefit, but before we go ahead and change, what we all know is a very difficult set of regulations just to benefit one private company or perhaps two. We need better answers on those questions, so I would urge you to send it back to staff and ask for more clarity on those four or five key issues before we make this commitment. Thank you. Thank.

C

You councillor du sac.

K

Thank you very much. The last four words in this report are and identify possible solutions, but I agree with councillor perks. There's a lot more questions in this report than there are solutions. I do support car share. I think it is great and from talking to residents, since the be a being able to drop, the car in front of your house has been a allowed by the company residents have supported this.

K

We have, though, gone through the hiccup, when particular company can't sort their licensing agreement with our green P and therefore that cars weren't in the green P Lots I was having five six seven cars parked on one Street I complained: the company responded, and now we were down to maybe two or three cars on the street, so they did respond to that. But I do agree. We can't have clumping whether it's a permitted street or whether it's one hour two hour three hour. Everyone must abide by the rules. My residents have been most upset.

K

How a company can come in and just ignore the rules I do I do agree with councillor perks. On that, my concern in my ward as I showed everyone which I know it's small I can always blow it up here. On is where we have permit parking. In my ward. We have zones.

K

One of them is at 95 percent right now, but I have several streets which have waiting, lists and stuff will be streets or dead-end streets, so if they can't find a spot on there, they can't park on James Street, because there's no permit parking overnight. Where would they park and wherever they do part, because it's street specific they will get a ticket I heard that we could ask them to go and then fight particular.

K

Why should they they have paid to have a spot somewhere on their street, depart their car, and we have four companies in a pilot, possibly five, when this does go ahead. Who could have five extra cars parked on that street and I have a waiting list so I think we have to look at this in a bigger picture. I do support the idea of this floating.

K

Permit I think it will help our residents I think over years it will reduce the number of car owners because, if they don't need their car really during the week only want one on weekend. These cars are great. Believe me, there's iffing around my ward. All over the place. We have many car share individual spots in our parking: lots like councillor perks. Whenever a development comes in, we make them have car share on site.

K

Those are great, but we also heard that if a street is 90 percent permitted already a resident living, there cannot get a temporary permit either, and then this can't these companies would be allowed to come in as well. So it's a balancing act again. I do believe that these car share companies will reduce ownership of cars, which will relieve our streets our permanent parking on specific streets. It's in its this, while we're getting there well I think we do need a few more rules and regulations.

K

Before we put this pilot out there, we should be looking after the residents right now who have been abiding by the rules they do by their pyramid. They renew it. Every year, customs, two hundred and eighty something dollars each year you get tickets, they're gonna, add up really quickly. So I would like to see some of these concerns and problems solved before it goes out to the pilot. I will support a pilot because I do like it. It will help support, reduce greenhouse gases. It will encourage people to hope.

K

Well, maybe it won't encourage them to use TTC because they'll have a car right outside their door, but anyway it will reduce our greenhouse gases and it will give other people options. I know one particular car show I have over a thousand members in my ward, I respect that and I respect them, but I have fifty five. Fifty six thousand residents I have to take into consideration. So therefore, I think we need a few more stipulations. Few more rules of issues which come to councillors. We can help you stuff.

K

They tell you what the outcome will be immediately for that pilot. Let's get this pilot, so it works, so residents can support it. So, at the end of the pilot, we can actually move forward and make this work. Thank you. Thank You councillor.

C

M

You very much madam chair, and for bringing this report forward. I think that it was a letter now, three or four years ago that came to public works about initiating this work and then it went it went silent. It went dark whatever you want to call when it just sort of disappears. They got stuck in the wheels of change and I know what part of the reason was, because the the group that was lobbying strongest for this came back to me and said. Well, why aren't you? Why are you driving this more?

M

Why aren't you pushing it again? Councillor Layton and I, told them I'm. Actually, a member and and I was looking at my app because I was looking for a car and all of a sudden a little a little button came up and said, call your local councillor to to to to ask for the change to happen, and this was after they were already encouraging people to park on the roads and I told the company I said this: uber approach to to policy change doesn't jive with me, so I said I'm not taking the next step.

M

If you can find someone, that's that's quite good, but but because of the approach that was taken to the change, I would not be supportive of it. Now be supportive of me being the one pushing the the boulder up the hill. Having said that and respectfully to my colleagues with whom I have the deepest loyalty and and and respect for, I think I'm, the only car share member on council I was trying to do the math.

M

If someone else can figure out if they are because I know that counts RS, he doesn't own a car, councilor perks can't drive a car and not because he not because he had the license removed. He never had a license in the first place, which is fine just to clarify, but but I'm. The only other councillor that doesn't own I, believe that doesn't own a car and so I would be the only one that logically, would be a member and I'm.

M

Not only a member of one service I'm actually a member of a couple, because that makes sense to my family, because when we go on trips and we need to space for a car seat when we are needed for a certain predetermined amount of time, we need to go to Ikea. We need to do all of the above. We take the car to go, doesn't work. The roaming spot doesn't work because the cars are too small. So what do I do? I book my car through my app I, go I. Take it I go!

M

Do my trip and and everything's fine I put the car seat in I tried I had an empty parking spot, the city, wouldn't let me convert to a a painting studio for my wife and then so I approached car share and said: hey wait! A second I got an empty spot.

M

Can you put a car there and they said no, because we don't allow private operators of parking lots in residential districts, so we've also been exploring this, because green pee could do that could which would offer up a whole lot of more of a permanent spots in neighborhoods for that service. But there is this other service with the roaming spots, and I can appreciate that that some people do depend on the spots in front of their houses, with a permit. I feel that I get the calls like councilor Doucet does like councillor perk perks.

M

Does when there's an event at Christie pits when the Santa Cobb break the Santa Claus Parade comes there, you cannot find a parking spot, I believe that I do but they're, not the only residents that live on those streets and they're, not the only people that have a right to on occasion park there I was really worried.

M

The pushback that we would get when we initially discussed started discussion aspheres ago I was I was nervous, like I was really really nervous about putting this forward, because the permit parking calls come frequently, but as the company started, allowing their cars to be parked illegally, where I thought we would get calls that the calls didn't come. They didn't I've, never seen a grouping of more than three car two goes in a single spot and and I live in the ward with with apparently according to the company.

M

The highest number of car share users and members in this particular in this particular service, so I I'm I'm, at least of the position that I'd be comfortable proceeding with the program. The pilot should some of these concerns that have been brought up be able to be identified within the early stages of the pilot and resolved and those being the oversubscription zones. I know the technology can do it it. If we're being told they can someone's trying to trying to hide something from us, because it totally can and then this notion of special events.

M

They could build a technology, build it build into that technology, a way of restricting zones at certain times it could. It could happen. I know it can happen. I've used the app enough to realize that they know if you're parked in a space you're not supposed to be parked in.

M

They know exactly where you're parked, when you're trying to turn off your service and say no I'm no longer on it, if you're five meters out of their parking lot or formerly, when they did the parking lot so I know they can do it, and we should demand that they address these issues before we proceed. If it takes a a deferral. I can appreciate that that staff might need that time. If it doesn't I would all it, and we could have every assurance that it could proceed with these two conditions.

M

I would be quite happy to support the pilot moving ahead at a faster rate. Again, I'll say, though, that this is about people having equal access to space on our streets and just because I, don't own a car doesn't mean I, don't have right to a little bit of space. On occasion, there are some concerns and I think we can address them very specifically, but we shouldn't be afraid to look at this, and it relates to the point that I know that one of my emotions that have been added about drop bikes.

M

If you haven't google it it's super cool technology and it's gonna have a similar discussion like as this car sharing. One does.

H

H

Have been struggling with this question as well, because I do believe that car sharing does serve a number of families and communities and particularly people who have excellent access to transit and use this to fill in the gaps.

H

However, I I'm not comfortable with the amount of information we have here and, in particular, I'm, not comfortable that we don't have the fee structure or potential fee structure and revenue picture from this program. It is not going to come until the budget process and to me this is always a trade-off. One of the benefits of this will be. Does it generate sufficient revenue to make it worthwhile in terms of covering the cost of administration and covering the cost of enforcement?

H

And we have no information about that and we know what a you start a pilot project, it's very hard to roll it back. We think it's been hard to resist the lobbying. That's been done on this up until this point.

H

Good luck at the end of the pilot project, so I am concerned in those areas that are heavily subscribed, that we will push people who are paying $200 a year out or actually $400 a year out and will get tickets that will end up our offices having to resolve because that's what happens, I got a ticket, they call our offices so I'm concerned about that and the reason I want to focus on the fees is we have fees for Road occupation?

H

Now we have Road occupation fees, which we just doubled or more last year and we're talking about increasing even more. We have parking fees if you want to park on the street that are set around the city, both of those far exceed what I think is being discussed here as potential revenue generator I want to see those numbers and I want to understand how we compare using our public roads for private purposes. I mean these are for-profit corporations and what the benefits are to the city.

H

What I know is, in my word, for the people who are paying a permit fees, there'll be no benefits to them, and already the enforcement that takes place in just the Toronto and East York district makes are the people who have permits susceptible to higher levels of enforcement than those that don't have permit parking and I'll. Just you know, complain a bit about what is happening now. Those areas that don't have permit parking have virtually no enforcement, so they Park on the street for free anyway, so I think.

H

Actually, if there is going to be car2go free floating, it should be free floating across the whole city and there should be permit parking across the whole city you want to park on the street. You pay that's the rules you park on the street, you pay, but right now what we have is just a mixed bag of unfair rules, and this will worsen it because now the same areas that are enforced heavily and pay to park on the public streets will now be inconvenienced more by potentially being pushed out of there.

H

The public spaces that are available now so I think we need to put some more thought into both the fee structure and to understand how to deal with the problems that are identified on the last page. Before we proceed with a pilot project.

C

Committee counselor m'lady.

F

C

Love thought to.

F

Finish why why is it that every time I speak, he feels compelled to take up my time. I'm.

C

Gonna I'm gonna restart the clock. I really appreciate that.

F

So, there's a whole slew of things that I'd like to talk about here, because I don't think it's just about this particular proposal. That's driving people, nuts, it's not driving me nuts by the way I'll be supporting it, because it's it's refreshing actually that we're dealing with an issue of car for a change and not an issue of getting rid of the car that the war on the car, at least for these this hour or two doesn't exist, or maybe it does.

F

Maybe some of the arguments we are hearing from those that have permits on their on their streets in the downtown part of the city is really the objective of getting rid of the car, and that might be the reason that the same people don't want this particular rideshare program to exist, one they have the benefit when I say they I mean those that have those permits on those small streets downtown, they have the benefit of living in the downtown part of the city.

F

They have the benefit of complaining about everybody else's car that seems to be taking up streets like King Street, and you know in the way of some bicycle lanes on some of the other streets like bluer. Those same people complain about the car regularly, but yet they have a parking spot in front of their house and they pay a permit.

F

My view is, nobody should be paying any permit fees for parking in the city on city streets. My view is those those those areas of the downtown part of the city should be exempt from paying anything first-come. First-Serve. If you don't get home on time on your street, then you shouldn't have a parking spot waiting for you in front of your house. It's the same house that people don't want the rest of everybody else's car in the downtown part of the city makes me sick. It's so hypocritical.

F

Maybe one day somebody like myself will get away with doing away with permit parking completely in this city, because I think it's ridiculous. It's just a way to secure somebody, a parking spot in front of their house in downtown part of the city. The reason I like this is because, like councillor Layton, there are a lot of other people that work every day and don't necessarily own a car and perhaps I even riding a bike and I see that the more week we entertain the car share programs, the more that might be reversed.

F

So the person who doesn't necessarily respect the car might want to rent a car once in awhile and garnish a little bit of respect for the car. So this war on the car might end eventually, I, don't know what whether I'd bet bet on that or not, but I think these kinds of programs. If anything, start people talking about how to move around the city a little quicker and might end that particular chapter I, don't know I like the the concept, because it's somebody else paying the fee as well.

F

So I think I got that right that that this particular company is now saying we would like the rights to this, but we're also going to be paying you. The fees so that so that so that our drivers, don't necessarily have to worry about that they build in their component on their drivers, so they make their money back with the drivers I I kind of like that, and it's a little different than some of the others that that are out there.

F

Some of the others have managed to get parking spots and in some of the high-rise buildings they got, they got their parking spots and of secured and in the first level there or the basements or wherever they have them in this particular case, I think they deserve to use the rolls to park like anybody else and I and I. You know. Maybe in another era, I will argue that someone's someone's property like mine, has the same right to be on the same roads that anybody who wants to sleep on our streets.

F

Anybody wants to pitch a tent on the streets. Anybody who wants to put their their possessions on our sidewalks. We tell them that they can do it, because it's it's it's public property. But yet when it comes to these kinds of ventures, we have to make sure that the person who owns that car has to pay so I'm not gonna.

F

Take that up yet because I think it's a bit far-fetched, but at the end of the day, I've made my point: if people can't can use the streets for other things, if they can use them to sleep, they can use them to to ask people for money regularly or ask them if they can clean their windshields and use our our mediums to do that and hang around and with signs.

F

Then why are we so adamant on getting rid of the car that gets people to work and back in the City of Toronto, because most people will use it exactly for that? It's good I! Think for those! That's live in the suburbs that they may not have a car and might want to come back and forth to work without having to use the subway a lot of people, don't like public transportation.

F

So I kind of like this, this model I'll be supporting it for all the reasons that I've suggested and maybe one day I might stand up in Council and try and get rid of permit parking completely in this city. So nobody has to pay for parking, and everybody has the right to the same Road and use the same Road and not have to worry about tickets because of somebody, that's secured it with a port with a with a permit.

C

Thank You councillor, m'lady I. Think did you oh that's good to know who would like to speak next?

C

All right. Would you cancer holiday? You go out. Yep, go ahead.

D

Thank you, madam chair I have a motion. If I could ask the clerk's to put that on the screen, I'll present that first it's requesting a report back from the general manager really with some details and some some opportunities that might be in the temporary parking permit system. They may be fine to see if there's a better way to interface with the car share companies.

D

I'm not going to support the report going forward. Staff did a very good job at answering the question they were asked.

D

They were asked the how they weren't asked the if, which is the public policy question I, tore the two pages of the presentation: there's the benefits of car sharing by the way it's the benefits of car sharing, not free floating permits and the possible issues and concerns and I guess the page is way the same, but they don't weigh the same in terms of issues for me and opportunities and the one that stands out on the possible issues is the oversubscribed permit areas and streets, and this is left over from the last time we talked about this at Pea, wick, I, don't know, but a year and a half ago and the warning from staff at that point in time was you know, we've got these oversubscribed areas.

D

People will come home, they won't get a chance to park their car because it potentially it's filled with it with a visitor, and we don't give temporary permits in those areas because they're full people going to live their lives. They got to come home from work and I think not being able to find a parking spot at the end of a long day of work or whenever you come home if it's 3:00 a.m.

D

or whatever it is I mean that is a complete upset of the balance of one's life, and so we've got an interesting company with a really interesting transportation model. I think it pretend it it presents opportunities for the city, but a very practical issue about how do we exclude those neighborhoods that are oversubscribed and I? Think the the answer to me really is to use the system that we've got right now.

D

We've got this way that you can park a car overnight if you're, a visitor, whether it's the person that drove the car or it's the company, whomever pay that temporary permit and you won't be given the temporary permit. If there's no room in the area, but I guess right now, it's a cumbersome system. You've got to call it in that car gets picked up and moved for another short-term rental. Then you know you've bought that permit, maybe there's a way to reuse it I.

D

Don't know but to me this is kind of an economic development issue. You've got a business with an interesting model, an interesting opportunity in the City of Toronto, an interesting way to achieve some of these benefits of car sharing, but I think we've got to find them a way to make it work better with them and so I guess there's a backstop.

D

If this report is passed, I'm gonna add this additional reporting, but to sum it up, I'm not comfortable with this I'm, not comfortable with that one issue about the oversubscribed areas and I can't support it at this point in time,.

C

Okay, is there anybody else who wants to speak because I'm going to speak, counselor operate support so go ahead.

N

Sure, I guess I'm going to support this and I'm going to support it, just simply because, as I've as I've been reflecting on it, I mean this is a you know: I go out and I rent a car I go to the airport, it doesn't have a you know. It doesn't have a special logo on the side of it. It's nondescript. Nobody knows it's a rental, car and and I and I can go and leave it in front of councilor sets house.

N

If there's parking on the street in front of councilor decide, so she wouldn't know, and unless it has, you know you know, logo like to go or or whatever it is. It's. It's just a rental.

N

It's a rental agreement. Just technology made easier and and I guess we haven't heard from Hertz, or we haven't heard from some of the other rental companies about about how them this may impact their their business and and what some of the some of the differences are and I believe that the that these companies, when somebody rents a car that way should be subject to the same rules. Everyone also subject to everywhere else. If there's a paid parking spot, you park, you pay parking.

N

If there's a three-hour parking spot available, you should go and pay your three hour parking spot. I understand they want some sort of this. They want some privileges beyond those companies that put car rent a rental car on the side of their car. You know you, like I, don't know I'm just picking on her. It's like cuz, I, I, don't know any others. I I can't remember any other car rental companies now, but so I guess.

N

If Hertz put a Hertz rental car to go on, there's on their thing and and came down and applied for some permits, and then then I assuming they would be treated very much in the same way as as as cars to go and they might be able to get some permits. So so really it's III I'm, not I'm, not confused by this III. Don't think I'm confused I think that the word the sharing I think technology now allows us to use some words. A little more loosely I think it's a it's.

N

A car rental operation made slightly easier because you can kind of like leave it everywhere and you don't need a person to go and sign in a leasing agreement with or any of those things. It's just.

N

You used some technology to taxes the car and be able to to kind of rent it on the spot as it were and and rented, and you know in the same way that you're able to rent two other cars and another vehicle, so so I'm gonna support it because I think it has merit from that perspective and if it's the ability to rent a car, you know made easier, then then we should be be looking at that in the same way that you know the last time, I rented a car from I, don't know if it was Hertz or not, but I did and I paid for parking and I moved it around and moved in, and then I just had to bring it back to the airport.

N

I guess that was the that was the the the the real big difference is I I went to the airport rented it there. The agreement was worked out. There I picked up the car. There was nice and clean by the way because it clean it after every rental, so I don't know if you're gonna get that in the same way as you get these these other cars on the street I brought it back, I didn't have to clean it.

N

I am assuming they cleaned it for the next person, but I had to bring it back to the airport. So the difference from from my perspective is now I wouldn't need to do all of that. I could just simply do it in front of counselors.

N

They said son I couldn't go there and three hours I could do for a period of three hours, so I'm, picking that up and I'm hoping that technology will soon evolve, where we get our own personal little flying machines, because I'm really tired of having to drive down here from North York, that's a real real long drive and traffic is really bad. Despite all of the mayor's best efforts to move us along really quickly, the roads are all gummed up, gummed up by a whole bunch of different things and and driving is really really heavy.

N

These days, especially when you're in a car, it doesn't matter where you go all right, so I'm hoping that that we'll be able to have liftoff I can get liftoff from my front yard and lift on to wherever I gotta go. It's short order. Thank you.

C

Thank you. Anybody else, no I'm gonna speak quickly, I'm going to move staff, recommendations on this item and I hope, you'll support. It I think it's our job as City Council and city councillors to think about the future of the city, and this is the future of the city and it's coming, whether you like it or not. In fact it's already here, along with you, know, artificial intelligence and automated vehicles, it's all coming and we need to be ready for it. So this is about sustainability on many levels.

C

It's the it's about the shared economy, which again is here: it's not coming it's here and if you I don't want to label the younger generation, but this is how some of my children and and yours eventually will get around our city, and we talk every day every hour of every day about congestion and gridlock. This will ease that.

C

We've heard that from the experts in the room, we've heard that it's good for the environment, which is also a pressing issue in this city, and it's going to reduce greenhouse gases over the long term and these various presentations that we've had today and we want to promote different options for transportation and and multimodal and getting around our getting around from our neighborhoods. So I don't think we can have our heads in the sand.

C

I hope this goes through today, because it's proven again in this presentation that this is a best practice, that's being implemented around the globe and we have on page 10. We have a number of examples of cities that have implemented free floating programs, major cities, not small cities, but major cities like our own city.

C

So it's good. It's really good on every level. In my mind, the environment, congestion and gridlock. It's the way forward, it's the future, it's shared economy and, lastly, I just want to point out the comments today, I've heard on the pilot I'm finding them a bit hard to swallow because the blower bike lanes. We ran ahead with that pilot and there was all sorts of things that were not clear. I asked for a supplementary report, which became an international news item, god forbid, and then I'm hearing from my colleagues today that there's not enough.

C

This is not locked down enough. It's not that it's not detailed enough. That's what a pilot is. A pilot is a pilot, it's to test the waters and to try it.

C

So if we don't go down this road, I'm, not sure why we're going, you know doing the King Street pilot and the the bore biplane pilot, because none of those none of those initiatives have ever a little bit locked down, and so that's the concept of a pilot, so I hope this body will be big thinkers and think about our future of our city on every level and how this is one step forward in addressing the very critical problems we face.

C

We need to do something, and this is in my mind, a step forward, so I will be supporting this wholeheartedly. Yeah. You.

F

Brought something up, madam chair, that I I I'm curious about that pilot project on blur Street the bike lanes. Where is that? Is that not supposed to be coming back to us? Yes,.

C

Next month, it's scheduled to come to the October p-wing, just.

F

Wondering when, when that's and just that's my understanding.

C

F

I'll say it now: in a city again next month, on a point of privilege, I've been asking for the names of all the people that have signed petitions and have ridden along those paths and nobody's nobody's giving me those particular items. So I don't know if it's, if it's warranted for me to ask that that be a part of next month's report nobody's giving me the substantive issues on who's using them. I think that it's the same same people that just keep going in a circle just to be counted. Okay,.

C

So if you would like to address that staff with staff offline you're welcome to do that. But it's not! The item is not before us to answer your question. My understanding is it's coming to the next couple: key work meetings, whether it's October or November, I, can't confirm that because I don't have that information, but my understanding is the year is almost off the pilot. One-Year pilot, so I'm sure we'll have a comprehensive report before us shortly all right.

C

So we're gonna vote on this item now, I'll ask for a recorded vote, so we firstly have an amendment from courtesy of councillor, Steven holiday, so we'll vote on that first I don't know! If we do, we don't need that to be recorded I, don't so all those in favor you would you like to okay sure, okay recorded.

B

Vote all those in favor of adopting the motion to amend the item before us, councilor holiday, chair, Robinson, councillor, Lee, councillor Piazza, all those opposed councillor, Carmichael grab and councillor Rama Liddy. That motion carries on motion to adopt the item as amended. All those in favor recorded vote is what I'm hearing is that right?

B

C

It was requested, yes, I did request it, you're a recorded.

B

Vote on the item as amended councillor Carmichael crab counts, chair Robinson, councillor Lee, councillor m'lady, councillor parisa, all those opposed councillor holiday. That motion carries. The item is adopted as amended. Okay,.

C

Great we're on to our next item, which is PW 23 point 10 I believe if somebody can correct me if I'm I'm, correct okay and we do have deputations on this item, we are. We have 35 minutes to lunch and I think if we work hard here, we can pull this off before lunch and get this all wrapped up. So, let's start with our deputy tents and our first deputy is Justin vendette welcome! Justin, you have you know the drill, five minutes, I.

P

C

Got your mic on so you can start now. Thank.

P

You, madam chair and I, will be under the five-minute mark. I am here to speak in favor of having the Easter glow go on the street signs within the former borough of East York, while I appreciate the need for consistency on the design of street signs, I feel it's very important that the city government be doing everything it can to preserve our history, which includes our proud communities and the six municipalities that made up metropolitan Toronto. I.

P

Remember very well back in 1996 during the many debates that were happening about megacity and there were very passionate debates. But one thing was made very clear. I think on both sides of the debate was that both sides would do everything that they could to preserve the history of our municipalities.

P

Former municipality logos are cherished symbols that should be celebrated. Displaying our Easter logo on Easter street signs, as it is today, is a reminder of the proud community that we are within a great city. I would even go one step further, while it is not before us today that we should probably be flying the flags of the old respective municipalities of the old city halls across the metropolitan.

P

The old metropolitan Toronto signage is part of our community's identity, and I would respectfully ask for the committee's consideration to move an amendment instead of receiving it for information that that the city go ahead and have the logos on city street signs in East York that wraps up my deputation madam chair.

C

H

Go ahead, thank you for coming Justin and the the notion of maintaining the Easter logo on city property.

H

Post amalgamation has already been debated by this council, in particular around the sign at the Civic Center that called to maintain the sign at the east jerk Civic Center. That question has resonated through this entire period as well.

H

Would you agree that there is still a real sense of desire to identify where east york is and that we have a separate sense and strong sense of identity? There's.

P

A definitely strong sense to towards the logo and a very loud support of the logo and I know. There would be many many more people down here today if there was an opportunity for for them to be part of the discussion where they wouldn't have to travel such a distance, but people feel very connected and very attached to the logo, because it is a our four municipality logo. It is, you know, dawn on sports teams, and so many other community organizations refer to and use that logo and look to it very well. I mean it's.

P

It's been was displayed very well by the last by the previous, a story. Straw, government I mean they did a great job in putting that logo out there and everywhere, wherever they could and it's something that we should be celebrating and should be cherished.

H

Along with the City of Toronto, for.

P

H

A recognition that we're part of the city of just oh okay, thank you.

C

Okay, councillor fresh caracas: do you want have a question? Yes,.

Q

I do I had thanks very much justin for coming out, and I know you spoke to the east jerk logo on the street signs in the city of toronto, and I was wondering what your thought is. If other munis former municipalities in in the amalgamated city wanted their logo on it, would you object no.

P

I I think I think it should be something that every former municipality should take a little bit of a lead on that.

P

If some of those councillors want to you know, I know, people in a tobik are very proud of a tobiko and same thing in Scarborough and of course, North York I still won't go through North, York and I see the logo on the end of their street signs the city with a heart, and you know, they've made a model, that's they're, proud motto and I think if they want to continue that they should be allowed to and.

Q

In other neighborhoods in the city, if they wanted their logo, if they say they didn't want, for example, the North York logo on the street sign, but instead wanted their neighborhoods logo, because you know there's like a lots of neighborhoods in the city where a city of neighborhoods do you have any objections.

P

No, no I think we're, as you just said, we're a city of neighborhoods and I. Think people would be very proud to have that kind of initiative as an option. Okay, great.

Q

Thanks very much Thank.

P

You councillor.

C

Very much we have another speaker on this item and our next speaker is Miroslav, welcome and there's and there's one that Carol as well after a Miroslav go ahead. Five minutes: five minutes: you knew that it's.

R

Been a few months, I fully agree with this. It's just it's a sense of pride would I for three years are used to living in East Europe by the East, your town centre, and you see them. You know. Whenever I go in anywhere anywhere in the world, I do have making a game flag a on my backpack. The battery I still have a little flag of of Scarborough on it.

R

I don't know if it will be call York and North York had a flag or anything in never lived in in those areas, but it's a sense of afraid. My driver's license still says it Scarborough. My my my mail delivery still says a scarf Scarborough in the community council. As cancer League can testify. They soap it put a flag of Scarborough.

R

If I could I would put that flag of Skyrim in my front yard, with the Canadian flag, I still say: I am from Scarborough no matter how many times the city's gonna change cancer pay holidays as he's from Etobicoke it countless times. I've spoken to you, Ryan, your father said the same thing. The amount of money that may encourage is worth it. We need to have a sense of pride work where we're from I was born in Croatia, is to carry decoration. I have a whole bunch of flags I'm from a lot of countries.

R

We need to have a sense of pride in this city, a lot others other cities, other in Vancouver came remember if it's Vancouver Victoria, they do the same thing. I will never what, when I go international I, say I'm Homefront, because most people don't know Scarborough Pickering with pee attracts people from all those places, I kind of say, they're from Scarborough Pickering and everything else. You know you have that definitely Canion flag, the Toronto flag. You know if it's a success of O'brien everybody who I'm meeting in each job.

R

We have a 10 emails here for all from each York and not nobody from Scarborough care being a better public conversation this, but I guarantee. If we go to Scarborough outside Scarborough in a Civic Center you're going to have the people they want. What in this the same thing, you know so surprise, that's it! Thank you.

C

How are you so you've got five minutes: Carol, okay,.

E

My name is Carol Burton, Tripp I'm co-president of the Leeside property owners and Leaside was part of East York for about 30 years and we enjoyed it. We found it very good government I've been hearing a lot of comments on various issues this morning about spending money without any return and and I feel. We feel that there is a in fact a return to spending a little bit of money to retain the name of our former municipality on on our size.

E

The value is greater than the cost. The name is important. It's an important part of our history. It's an important part of our heritage. We live in a time where there's an awful lot of discussion about what is what of the past? Do we retain and what of the past do we not retain?

E

We feel this is an important part of our current lives, even though there is no East York government anymore, and it leads to a kind of civic pride I think that it makes people more likely to to bond together, not just within East York but I. Think knowing the different neighborhoods. The different municipalities is is a treasure. We should retain it's. It's not just sentiment, it's it's something much more important than that, and I urge you to support retaining our East York logo. On our speech signs, thank you. Thank.

C

You, Carol and I think that's it. Thank you. So we're gonna move to questions of staff. Oh I'm, sorry, you do have one one question: counselor holiday! Yes,.

D

Mike would help I guess Thank You chair. Thank you for speaking to us. I was intrigued. When you sat down you introduced yourself as being from Leaside. It was the first thing you said you didn't say: I'm from East, York and I think about in Etobicoke, where I'm from and I'm very very proud of Etobicoke. You come into my office, there's artifacts all over from Etobicoke, including the topic of flag hanging, but there were villages that made up these former these former municipalities.

D

Maybe you were from Mimico and then from Etobicoke or Islington and then from Etobicoke and then you're from Leaside in North York. How do we rationalize that? How do we have some sort of a system here? Where, where we can, we can speak to that I mean you identified yourself, first as being from Leaside, would you rather it's a Lisa than East York? Maybe, or should it say both and I'm, trying to understand that I.

E

Think East York would do it. I said Lisa because I'm co-president of the local Association there, and also because maybe we're a little different from some others that Leaside was not always part of East York. It was only in relatively recent years and it was only for 30 years out of the lengthier history of this city, so I have no objection to other municipalities or other neighborhoods, either having their their identity. But I should echo what my two previous, the two previous speakers says that a lot of our mail gets addressed to East York.

E

When you do something on the computer up pops, East York, we had lengthy association with East York, both its its associations and its public government and so forth, and we found it very rewarding so.

D

Fair enough to say that the history is complicated and varied, and probably is that way across the city I mean you've, told me, there's a lot of history to that. That would be aware of so. Would you advocate to have a sign that said least side East York in Toronto, or do you think it should just be sort of stopped at the former municipality level of East York.

E

I I would say that East York would do it. We still have in Leaside, as in fact in other parts of the city. I've noticed there will be more neighbourhood, oriented signage as well, but I don't see it as a rivalry or anything like that. No.

D

No thank you kindly I.

C

I guess I'm actually not a proponent of this, because I believe we're one city and the city is Toronto I, don't mind promoting the neighbourhoods likely side but I guess I'm struggling with this event. Yesterday I had a complaint from a committee member, a concern from a committee member saying that you know as we age it's harder to read signs, and so this is going to make signs street signs very busy with all this potential logos and context, words content.

C

So are you at all concerned about how busy these signs will look and people's ability to read them and to navigate our city? I? Think.

E

There's such a thing as good design and that if there is a will to to fit more on one sign that it can be done in a way without distracting from the major message which might be the name of the street I to have visitors in town who says they can't read the street signs by the time they get to read the street signs they've shot past right.

E

Yes, no I think this is something different, I think there's something about this sign, or there was this sign I'm thinking of one sign in particular near the Tres mains building in East, York, sorry, where the logo disappeared, but the sign stayed the same. There was just a blank spot above it you know, and you you hadn't, been prevented from reading the information that was on the sign just because there was an East York logo on it, and you.

C

Prefer the former cities versus the neighbourhoods, because there isn't there is actually I- was just told by staff. There is a neighbourhood policy currently in place and I'm gonna ask some more about that in a minute. But you prefer this former cities over the neighborhood's likely side or hogs Hall or if.

E

One has to make a choice, I would say, but at the moment, because we do have you're asking me about where I live and specifically yes, we do have lots of things that say Lisa on them so, but we have very few increasingly few signs that say: East York, so I would say: East you're. Okay, thank you. That's.

C

Q

Yeah I could ask to ask questions. I know it's not I'm, not on the committee, but I just thought of something. While you were asking your questions chair thanks very much Carol for coming to committee to speak to us. I was wondering if you've seen attachment 1 in the report.

Q

So I was wondering if I could approach the deputed to show her the three different designs and see if she has any objections, because.

C

It is a nice diagram in the report.

Q

Now that she's seen that, if everyone looks at attachment number one I you which one would you say that you preferred.

E

Q

One that has the east jerk logo in the bottom right hand corner with the logo of the City of Toronto at the top, and also the Danforth Avenue. Coincidentally, it's coincidence that asks the attachment anyways clearly on here. So thank you very much for that. Okay,.

C

That wraps up questions of the speakers. Thank you to the speakers for coming here today. Now we're going to move to questions of staff, any quite enough. I have a couple questions. Anybody else, councillor Davis, you have questions, go.

H

Ahead, I just wanted to confirm so the middle design, which has the logo down in one corner. Do you have any concerns in terms of visibility, any operational concerns with that with that design.

L

Through you, madam chair, we we identified some options based on whether the location in question was part of a Business, Improvement Association and therefore had its own indicator. I. Think of the three options, the the one that you see on the bottom has sort of the most logos- it's the busiest, but it doesn't impact the visibility of the street name, which is the the ultimate purpose of the sign.

H

Okay, so you also have this poppy here: isn't it the case that you're already putting this poppy on some signs through.

L

You, madam chair, that's correct and that.

H

Is being done through some other decisions of community council or council made a decision for.

L

You, the community council, takes that matter up and determines whether the the street in question, if proposed, to, has a veteran and that I believe, is what those demonstrate. Okay, so.

H

If there are other, there may be some questions about what, if other municipalities want to do this, is it reasonable to assume that the request once council approves that that it could come at the request of a community council.

H

If Council were to approve something that said in any future ones come at the request of community council or something like that, maybe I'll just it would.

B

Be that that's not your quite sleeve that.

H

Okay, so from an Operations perspective, this is you: don't have any turns with the options that are there. Thank you from.

L

An Operations perspective in terms of visibility, I think the street name sign and the reflectivity will will be the same. Great thank.

H

You very and the cost three to four thousand dollars per year. That's all it is through.

S

You, madam chair, yes, the cost is three to four thousand dollars for the application of the sticker to the sign, and this would be applicable to signs that were just up for replacement due to damage or new street, not a retrofit program.

H

For decommissioned signs or a replacement of decommissioned signs, because that's what our policy is, we only take signs down when they're falling apart right. That's.

S

Correct or a new street that was in for a new street right so.

H

Do you think you could find three or four thousand dollars internally in the budget.

S

Through three men charity, the funding of the the replacement, the application we through our operating budget, great.

H

Thank you very much.

H

Maybe I'll just have one last question: I haven't I saw a submission here from the east jerk foundation. The Easter Foundation also said they're willing to look at potentially supporting this effort too. Would you be willing to discuss that with them.

L

Through you, I we would certainly be happy to do that great. Thank you. Sorry.

C

Who else had questions okay, counselor at FRA Caracas go ahead thanks.

Q

Major sorry I just wanted to ask again, so you said that in attachment one, the three designs that are presented, not a single one of them, has an issue in terms of its visibility to the driver in terms of reflectivity or that they could see it with it with the east jerk logo on it, for example, number two and number three: they wouldn't hinder somebody's site from seeing Danforth, Avenue or other street names that correct you.

L

The the safety component of the sign and the wayfinding component of the sign would stay the same, which would be about the size of the letters and the contrast so that people were able to see it and the reflectivity of it. So that would stay the same. It's a wordless of additional logos and.

Q

We've had no issues with the street signs that currently have the poppy on it, for people being distracted or getting lost through.

L

You not that we have heard or has been reported to us. Okay, thanks very much.

C

Okay, councillor holiday.

D

Thank you. Have we finished converting all the signs in Toronto, since the signs were in place from the former municipalities, they all done. They all brought up to this standard. You.

S

Manager know we're still in process since 2007 we were probably in an area of a third to a quarter, so we have about 80,000 signs amalgamation.

D

Was 96 so I was my next question to you: how many decades does it take to do, but apparently more than two so.

S

The the new sign policy design team, in effect in 2007, okay I'm, so we've been actively at it since then, at.

D

Least a decade of working on it: okay, how many shapes and symbols and things are already approved to go onto signs I, see, I, see I, guess the poppy. Is we just learned that today, in a certain part of the city anything else out there so.

S

In addition to the poppy, the the top portion of the sign blade is reserved for business improvement areas, so we would work with them they would fund. As of the example of Danforth village image in the lower picture, they would fund for that section to have their logo applied to us. So.

D

If I wanted to have a logo from the neighborhood that I live in, could I add a neighborhood to the bottom as well. I don't have a BIA, so.

S

There's a different policy for neighborhood signs so that you were through that policy which would flow through the division and ultimately through Community Council.

D

What about a former village like Islington or Mimico or Long Branch, so.

S

D

A neighborhood I.

S

Three-Man, chair neighborhoods would flow through that other policy that I was talking. If.

D

I wanted to talk about the watershed that I live in part of the typical Creek or the Mimico Creek Valley, where perhaps we wanted to examine an Aboriginal territory, you know, could we could we do that as well or how would we handle a request that we're sort of you know I'm getting as there's layers upon layers of the identity of the neighborhood's that were in the place that we live? We run out of space.

S

Well, the sign is a limited space and the top plate is reserved for a bie logo and right autumn, we've used to date for the municipal address, which is good for emergency responders and tourists trying to find or neighbors trying to find the neighborhood. And in the last number years, we've added the poppy as a request. Community council community.

D

Council added emoji a.

S

D

Bit, tongue-in-cheek, there but I guess the last question has anybody say, appreciate the graphics of this and they're like someone's been time preparing. This.

D

Has anyone consulted with any communities of interest with respect to accessibility because I you know I get it I mean signs, are very, very important, graphically there's a visual identity which is kind of a corporate branding thing, but there's also just making our way through the city, and you know, as you introduce visual distraction to anything I mean there's some design principles in that, but there may even be some human principles in that. Have we gone that far? Did we just get a mock-up for at least the report? Three.

S

Men chaired the original sign design that came into effect in 2007, went through extensive design. We retained a consultant to look at the size, shape the letter height, the float, the reflectivity, the placement of the sign at locations.

S

So, yes, we did do some rigor with regard to the design of the sign. What.

D

About the the symbols, though, along the bottom, was that contemplated in the process or was their value and sort of going back to some communities that have interested in this to say you know how do you feel and sort of buttons and shapes and symbols across the bottom of the sign? Does that you, okay with that or does it make things worse? Better I, don't know I'm.

S

Sorry, ma'am cherry we'd be open to that, but I as I said that the top portion of sign has been reserved or identified for those types of identifiers got.

D

It B is w and then the neighborhoods is a different policy. Okay, thank you. So much.

C

I've got some quick questions too. So this sorry somebody else, oh, go ahead. No go ahead! Counselor Li go ahead.

G

Amy, thank you, I'm sure it may be along the same lines as well. The current neighborhood policy on on street signs. What is it yeah.

C

S

You through madam chair that there is a policy called neighborhood and business area identification side, so it's in a business area, not necessarily a BIA or a neighborhood. So there is a policy that looks at you know, ten to fifteen different criteria that they have to meet. It has worked through the process. Ultimately, it goes through the division. If the division is unclear on the recommendation, we would then bring it on to community council. In this case, the neighborhoods and the business areas will be responsible for the cost.

S

G

So, in this case issue, if the community council were to approve it under our neighborhood policy, then you co-counsel, we will be responsible for this cause.

S

Three-Man, chair I think it would be the definition of what is a neighborhood, so East York. Could it be Dean the neighborhood or would it be considered a former municipality? That would be something that would need to be looked at and.

G

What is normally the cause of putting up to sponsor a name, for example the reciters just mentioned? If you want a list like name on the side, what's the cause boss, money so.

S

There's the cost of a brand new sign installed is approximately two hundred and fifty dollars how much $250.

G

$250, but that's for the whole sign. That's that's for the whole sign, but just for the portion which, with the logo on it, the sagely site, how much at the part of the doing.

S

$50, so through you, it wouldn't be that much less because we still have to have the crews to grow, to replace the existing sign with the new sign. So it's still in a neighborhood of about 250 dollars. So.

G

We do have a neighborhood policy right now. We.

S

Do have a neighbourhood policy and finally work through that with you can.

G

I kind of remember that when back in 2007, when we made the decision- but it was mostly pertaining to be is because you know most lady is money, but how about the old signs where by annex is put on a sign?

G

Your bill is put on a sign. Vicious is on the sign. So when you replace that you remove it completely.

S

Three-Man chaired generally, there is a removal of the sign because the former signs would have been in place, so we were going with the new design, so that sign would read, be place in its entirety and I said its cost. Approximately two hundred fifty dollars per sign, the.

G

Sign and whoever wants to add that back in like beaches or these site will have to find somebody to pay for it. That's great: okay, Thank You,.

C

Councillor Lee asked some of my questions, but I just want to clarify this. This clearly in my mind, and maybe you can confirm it- contravenes the city's corporate identity program. This this concept is somebody here from Stratcom. Yes,.

H

Hi, yes, that's true. According to the corporate identity policy, we should be using the city's logo as that amalgamation to identify the city and not the former municipalities logos. So.

C

When did we win? Did council adopt that policies that to use only the city's corporate identity, that.

H

Was in 2000 in.

C

2000, so this what happens to the policy, then, if this was approved, that.

H

Would be I, imagine a council conversation if they want to reverse their previous decision and.

C

So, council, at that time, endorsed or supported being one city having one title, one name, one brand Toronto, yes,.

H

Exactly this logo was chosen as the one symbol to identify the unified amalgamated city and.

C

Why was that I know? Maybe you weren't there at the time, but why was that that the the staff recommended that or that was a council motion? Do you know how that the genesis of that I.

H

Don't know I wasn't there at the time I believe it was a council decision. Okay,.

C

So this is in contravention of that and then I guess I would ask transportation staff I, guess Mike. Maybe this is a bit of a tough question for you to answer, but my concern as I was alluding to with the speakers, is the sign becoming too busy and too many demands on the sign and really what we want to communicate to people is what street they're on and it's hard enough to.

C

Iii find the signs tough to read and then I find people slamming on their brakes to try to read them, and then we end up with rear-end collisions, etcetera, so I'm a little worried about just the practicality of this, of the signs becoming too busy.

C

Can somebody address that.

S

Through you, madam chair, so when the sign was originally designed, we did look at the letter height and the size and the continuity of the sign for reaction and nighttime. So we did take those factors into consideration in general, assigns more effective it. It's it's standalone, but we did identify as I said that the top portion design was originally identified for bi A's to be included into the design. So.

C

Bi A's, meaning referencing councillor Lee's questions about BIA Zin neighborhood, the neighborhood policy, which has been endorsed by council.

S

Gets correct and.

C

Can you just give us an example of that without maybe flipping to the report, but how would a based on the neighbourhood policy? How would the sign appear in the current with the current policy so.

S

Three men chair, a Business Improvement area would approach the transportation division to request that the BIA ovo be included on the sign. They generally provide the artwork. We work with them to work so that the artwork fits the top portion of the sign, there's generally a few iterations back and forth, and then we work through the the financing of the sign.

S

Now the BIA has to you know we work through our active friends and make sure that the VI is established in the boundary of the BIA, because we make sure we're only signing within that VI. A and.

C

So could this be come down the road like multi-layered that you have the BIA or the like? Let's say Yorkville or the Danforth or then you have you know the city, the former city, and then you have the street name and possibly then the City of Toronto logo I mean. Is there some?

C

You know, how does how do you accommodate all that in a simple street sign a.

S

Three-Man cherry I think the the the lower version of the street sign on attachment. One would identify how we would accommodate a BIA, the street name itself, the municipal number and then the inclusion of the locals. So.

C

The third on attachment 1, the third example. Yes, okay! Thank you. That's helpful move, two speakers and okay. So, let's we have three minutes till we have to recess for lunch, do do commitment committee members want to move, go through or you want to recess the I think it's very the items after this are very quick, because I've got some updates for you from councillor mamelon. He was actually right.

C

Brace yourself, yes, so can we have a motion to complete the agenda counselor holiday seconded by councillor Lee? Let's try to go really quickly here so councillor, Davis.

H

I'm wondering councillor parousia has agreed to move a motion on my half and I wonder if you could just put it on the screen.

H

One of the. Let me just start by saying thank you to the staff for bringing forward a report that gives some of the history and also identified how logo might be incorporated into a sign. I can tell you that our community of East York has an enduring sense of identity. It has remained strong since amalgamation and there is an incredible sense of pride in in our community amongst all of the neighborhoods, all of the neighborhoods that make up East York.

H

You can go to the skate park and find a giant East York logo painted on to the skate park, and they do it every year, because the East York skate team is very proud of coming from East York. You can go to East York collegiate and find dozens of kids like mine with an East York logo tattooed on some part of their body.

H

You can continue to go to the East York Historical Society, the East jerk foundation, the East York Garden, Club I could continue to list for you, the organizations that have continued to thrive through amalgamation and those organizations have done so within the context of an amalgamated city, but I don't see any problem with helping us to maintain that sense of community and pride by putting a small logo on our sites. We have municipalities right across the world.

H

New York City Montreal were the boroughs, continue to have identities and continue to have them identified in the public space. There is absolutely nothing wrong. What's wrong with having a low, Easter cloak Oh on a sign we're violating the corporate policy brand.

H

Do you think that in any way having an Easter logo is gonna break the Toronto brand? No, absolutely not. There is a very strong sense of as I said of pride and identity and I know that the people of East York will be very excited to see the logo. Once again, you know I, don't you may laugh at my analogy, but we have grown as a country in a way to accommodate local differences, and we have accommodated Quebec.

H

There are ways that we have kept our country United by finding accommodations there's. This is a very small accommodation that recognizes both. We are part of the City of Toronto, but we are a unique neighborhood, a unique portion and unique geographic area in the City of Toronto. So we have signs at Canada Day.

H

That say our Canada includes East York and we give them away by the Dozen, because people recognize that we are special people love where they live and I think this small accommodation is one that the city can both afford and that the city can support without in any way jeopardizing our core brand. So I hope you will support this motion and I believe that it also will identify that it is the middle design that we are supporting, which is on those signs that are not BIA signs that they would have a logo.

H

So in no spot would there be a Toronto sign beside in East York sign. Can.

C

You can't counts for frog, recognize you're. All thank.

Q

Simon I've made that amendment in councillor has agreed to move it and it's as for the middle option in attachment 1 as referenced by with one of the deputies, and so I've tried to be brief, because I know we're in the lunch hour, but we have a whole city department dedicated to the issue of heritage and, as you heard from some of the deputies today, many feel that we're excluding a neglecting East York on that front.

Q

I actually think this is an extension of our current policy that recognizes neighbourhoods so I have a difference of opinion with some about that. The city's corporate identity policy we heard was approved back in 2000 I think that policy updates from time to time are usually helpful. It's actually the reason we meet as a council. We'd have no reason to meet if all we do is just to prove whatever staff tells us to approve.

Q

We have these discussions for about 25 percent of every council agenda, where we deviate slightly from the policy and I think that that is helpful. I think it's actually healthy I, don't think it undermines our corporate identity, but I think it actually helps to bring our city's history to life. I mean obviously I'm supportive of the East York logo, because I actually represent that area.

Q

It's actually the area that I've lived in in my whole life, but I would certainly be supportive and did move the motion at counsel for Scarborough to have that identifier I would support Etobicoke having it North York, York North, just other communities that want to be recognized on the street signs I would support that I. Don't think that it confuses people I, don't think it makes the sign cluttered, because I don't think that they're going to focus on that and not on the name of the street that they're looking for so I.

Q

Ask you to support this and I'm sure we'll have a another discussion about this at Council in two weeks.

C

Thank you and actually it's councillor O'meara, ladies next and then councillor Prusa. He asked before you I think before.

F

I speak to, or not just on a point of order. We're trying to change policy on the fly here is that we're trying to do?

F

Is there a process for changing.

C

This, in order.

B

This will require a change to the corporate identity policy.

B

F

Guys need to listen to me a little more.

F

So, what's what's just done, I'm just done a question: how do you change policy? Do you do it through an agenda? You don't where the.

C

Report before us says to receive it for information, staff's recommendations.

N

C

Davis we're trying to have a conversation here enough, so the report before us is to receive for information right.

M

C

I'm gonna move right. My understanding is councillor fruits, it has another motion and I don't know if counselor Lee still hasn't another motion too. So there's a couple more.

F

They're floating.

C

F

Point of order is we're gonna entertain motions to do what, because anything, contrary to the receipt recommendation would mean we got to go somewhere else with policy change. Where is that.

G

We're committing.

C

Because that, what's before us has received for information, so how do this.

B

Should this policy change go to Council, we need to include an amendment to the motion that the corporate policy be amended accordingly,.

C

So it'd be an amount in the form of an amendment and.

F

Would that be a 2/3 volton in council.

B

We could vote on that amendment here and send that recommendation to Council and council will need to approve. It would.

F

The change in policy, though that would be a change in policy- is that a two-thirds vote in council and changing policy I.

B

Don't think so, I think it's a majority vote majority.

F

That's okay, so I mean I'll speak!

F

Madam madam chair, this you know, I said earlier at the beginning that things are done at committee last minute, where we're trying to venture into helping a community out that that needs help. Obviously, but you know, when others try to do certain things that committee we're told we can't do it and then other things happen and all of a sudden it becomes an order, and you understand what guys like me, get frustrated, because I tend to be the guy that people say you're not allowed to do this with right.

F

Now, all of a sudden we're allowed to change policy on the fly it doesn't matter. What that policy is so it's not a one. All one fits all policy here at City Hall with the way committees, work, I, feel I feel a bit slighted, because I tried to do this stuff before and I've been told I can't.

F

Having said that, I don't think this is the place to deal with this I think it's I think it's City, Hall down, sorry I, think it's uh it's Council at City, Hall and I would be supporting these York recommendations and changing the policy, because I I think that our neighborhoods need special recognition when it comes to signage and makes them proud and makes them who they are, and those of us that were around at the amalgamation.

F

In those days we were actually guaranteed back then that we wouldn't lose our focus on neighborhoods and slowly we're starting to do that. This isn't about a sign. In my opinion, this is much larger than a sign and whether we should be recognized recognizing a local community, Mimico others. This is about whether or not people have been content with the megacity, and maybe the issue should be. Should we be going back to what we're used to should we should we break apart amalgamation?

F

That should be the debate, because the same people that are arguing that they want East York are probably gonna argue that they'd rather go back to the way it was because Toronto hasn't given back anything to the former municipalities. The former municipalities have subsidized Toronto North York, who I love very much.

F

Isn't the North York of one-time Etobicoke is not the Etobicoke that we experienced one time they've become dirtier, they become less attractive.

F

Nothing gets pruned anymore. You got weeds growing out of sidewalks curbs, nobody seems to care anymore to me. That's what the debates about it's not about whether or not East York should be on a sign. What they're, really trying to tell everybody here is amalgamation has not worked for our neighborhoods.

F

It's only worked for one city, the former City of Toronto amalgamation was the former city Toronto the best friend, so maybe that should be the debate and not whether or not we should be cluttering our signs with different messages because I don't like number three.

F

If, if you ask me and I, don't necessarily like to either to be honest with you, but if we're going to distinguish communities then it needs to be all communities with the same with the same kinds of messages, and not just in this case you got a report, that's not even being recommended, in fact, it's being been recommended by staff to just kill it, and what about North York and what about Etobicoke and and what about.

F

No I'm and and it's not about justice, it's a good process and I I just think we're going about it the wrong way, and if we got to change the policy, let's rethink of the policy and change it properly without without doing it on the fly right now, because, while I agree with with what's going on in East, York I, don't agree that we should be dealing with it like this. That's it.

F

So you can throw all emotions out today that you want on this stuff, but I think it's still breaking the policy itself, our bylaws around how we're supposed to be working as committees, not even sure they're in order, quite frankly,.

C

Okay, thank you, and our next speaker is councillor Perutz ah and then we're gonna go to a consular holiday in the council. A thank.

N

You thank you very much, madam chair I'm gonna move the the motion and, at the words, a subject to amending sorry and add just continued the transportation service and that the corporate identity policy have ended accordingly, just so that, just so that we, as comes from a melody, suggests, stay within the box in in doing what what the Box prescribes us to do and will allow us to put a little sticker on these signs and the former municipality of East York history is a history is a is a funny thing and I'm sorry about I'm sure I wasn't going to go into a into a historical diatribe, but but but counselor ma'am lady has a way of stoking my my sentiments around many of these issues and and York has a or the name.

N

York has a rather long history with us. I, don't know how Lord what was his name John Graves Simcoe, would would have sat here and listened to counselor mama lady's comments as he as he basically strode into what was then called Upper Canada and decided that he was going to rename this region after I believe and this I'm going by memory, because we were trying to Google Google some some of the history I believe there was a watercourse that ran basically from and I. Don't know what the what the precursor to Lake Simcoe later became.

N

Lake Simcoe down to Lake koochiching, so koochiching I'm assuming is is God, is a name that that exceeds historically Lord Simcoe, but that area that water course was called Toronto and then they're, trying to kind of move south and and in this region, I believe was originally called well, not originally called because there's history before that, but but in our limited three or four hundred year history was called Toronto and then along comes Lord Simcoe and in wanting to honor ik Prince Frederick was I believe is his name was Frederick something-or-other Duke of York.

N

They renamed the region, York or Fort York I believe was called at the time, and then you all know what how that kind of you know: county of York, East, York, North York. It continues on York region and it continues yawn and and I think that if you take your key even further back I think it comes from your area of England, northern England, Yorkshire and I think that if you roll the clock back a little further on that he became the Latin name meant something like you tree, but who are we?

N

Who are we to relive that history? East York is, is a signpost of our Martin and the reason I why I moved emotion? Madam chair, East, York, like North York, like Etobicoke, is a signpost of our recent history and there are some folks who have an affinity to that signpost. They just simply don't wanted to kind of be discarded on the dust heap of history and for the time being be completely lost, so they were asking to put a little sticker on some road signs. But really, what are we talking about?

N

You right ask him to put a little sticker, a little symbol. I, don't know how Lord John grave Sinko or Prince Frederick would feel about adding a little simpler to his coat of arms. I am we're not gonna. Go there because he's not around anymore right, he's way way: underground right, yeah for sure, but they're asking to put this little sticker on their street signs.

N

Basically marking this signpost in this very recent modern history. People don't want it to be too simply forgotten.

N

It's not that big a deal really not that big a deal, and it's certainly something that we can do quite simply so I'm happy to move that motion and I'll not be to support it at the end of the the debate. Thank you.

C

Okay, Thank You councillor Lee, we're gonna. Have you speak next as councillor holidays, working on a motion and you're ready all.

G

Right, thank you very much air and thank you for the history lesson. I won't give you a history of Toronto, anyways I got a motion and my motion is to request the general manager of transportation services report to the public works committee. Meeting I am in the November meeting.

K

G

Of incorporating neighborhood identifiers on street name signs I, remember back in 2007, we did work on the street sign format and approved the current design, and just like what the deputy was saying. I am now in real life. Finding that a lot of times people are driving past the sign without seeing the sign. But what I like about this one is because we tronto it's composed of 140 or more neighborhoods, and some of it is really historical value to it.

G

So I think, instead of trying to get somebody to pay for putting the signs on what is the incremental cost of putting the name of the district or even local, just like similarly to East York on the sign you know when I asked is, is $250 to replace a sign, but what's the increment cost.

G

So these are the things that I want to get report back on. If you would allow historical names like districts, for example, beaches, Rosedale, Rockville, the annex okay, if we allowed that to be put back on based on community council approval, then I think it is inherent for us to have that identification for the areas that we represent.

G

So this report is just asking for staff report back on what is the facility, as well as the cost, to do that? The incremental cost to do that. Thank you.

N

B

How is this different than the policy we already have in place for neighborhoods right.

G

Now, the policy, that's why us the policy says that the area must be for it right now: I'm saying that what are you for city pays for it? What's the cost.

N

G

That's why I asked a specific question who's paying for it, so in the oldest, when we made the decision, the beer I know that the BIA is. If they won the BIA name on the street sign, then they have to pay for him. So if an area for example, you represent area up in Eggleston all right area.

B

G

If they wonder the name ethnic village on the sign and Eglin village will ever pay for it or the company association, somebody has to pay for it or.

B

You can pay with it out of section 37 money.

G

Secondary sum of money, I don't think it's allowed to be used for this I got them a wheel. Can you can.

G

When we exercise know it can be careful.

N

C

Councillor holidays next.

D

Thank You, chair I, have a very brief motion and that is that the City Council refer this to the disability, Advisory Committee I, don't think we've got input from what I heard. In my questions, the people that need to read the signs and I would appreciate that I guess just on this policy and chair I understand you're gonna move receipt, so I don't need to do that.

D

A romantic notion indeed- and this comes from a guy- that's got the Etobicoke flag proudly flying in his office. Although councillor Davis, you got one on me. If you've got a tattoo of East, York I mean I've got an Etobicoke tie, clip I thought. I was doing pretty good but good on you, but that the devil is in the details on this and I I want to remind everybody, ask the question: have we changed all the signs? We haven't even finished in Toronto of changing it to this one.

D

So we've got like 25 years of a Technicolor dog's breakfast ahead of us. So you know the detail is: is will start to change a couple of signs and we'll have these little symbols here and there and then you know you know. The next point is: is the pressure now to accelerate that and change more signs because we got to get the sticker on them because it looks funny. You know this street. Has it this one doesn't so from a very practical standpoint. I can't supports it.

D

Support this I think there's a lot of ways that city councillors can support the identity of their cities that they came from that formed amalgamation and councilmember IDs right. You know there's undertones of this D amalgamation discussion here, but it's manifesting in a sticker on a sign and if you examine it on its merits, I think it's just a bad idea just to implement, um but I can tell you this.

D

You know as a councillor I feel the strength of the the core of my duty here is to protect the neighborhood identity, and you know councillor Davis fired a shot earlier today in a meeting and I, don't mean to point the too harshly on the example, but you said you know there should be parking on the street. All over the city, I'll tell you in the central Etobicoke neighborhood that I represent the the identity of us.

D

Are those unencumbered streets and I think the neighbourhood would probably die amalgamate before they would ever ever permit on street parking, because that is a wholesale character. Change. It's represents urbanization, it is. It is not our identity, so councillors have to step up and notice these very subtle changes. They come in the form of development. They come in the form of roads. They come in the form of changes to park programming to allocation of money in the city.

D

These are the the core things that make up our identity in the neighbourhoods that we represent, let's not be lost in the discussion of a sticker, let's be consumed with the discussion of all of these. Very fine points about representing the desires and the needs and the wants of the people that elected us here and recognize that neighborhoods are different and there are different needs across the city.

D

That's what I think we should be doing just let's just drop this idea of a sticker on a sign, because this is going to take years to implement and halfway through it we're going to change our mind again and do something completely different or other people will ask for stickers and then we'll just have this cluttered mess and there'll be no identity of anything. You know, that's what I have to say. Thank.

C

You any other speakers, I'll say a couple of words, but it'll only take a minute. I may be like you, I fought amalgamation way back when I went out in door knocked I'm gonna. Oh yes, I'll start by saying I'm gonna move receipt that I'm gonna remove for information from remove receive for information, as per the motion or the recommendation from staff on the report.

C

So I I, like you guessing fought, amalgamation was out door, knocking trying to convince North York, not to go down this road and, as we all know, the outcome was different from what many of us wanted, and here we are here. We said amalgamated many years down the road. The city created a policy. A lot of thought went into that policy from staff as well as City Council and City Council adopted a policy.

C

This controvery contravenes that policy and so we're again we're straying from what we've kind of our plan that we've laid out so I'm. Basically, as I said, I'm receiving I'm saying, we should receive this for information as per the staff recommendation in the report before us. I, don't have an issue with promoting neighborhoods, but we are Toronto. That's our that's our name and we're not the former cities. I don't have a problem with the other of the former cities being on other signs and I.

C

Don't even have a problem with the city funding some of those signs. What I do have a concern with is the street signs the fact that they will be very busy looking cluttered and it's hard enough to navigate the city and look at these signs, so I am going to be, as I said, I'm gonna, repeat myself for the third time receiving this for information as per the staff recommendation and the report before us, because we are truly one city in the City of Toronto.

C

So we have a number of motions to juggle here and I'll. Ask the clerk to identify the running order.

N

I'd like to ask for a recorded vote on each and every one chair, just so we're clear, Chris, Leak, clear all.

B

Those in favor of amending a moment the motion and by councillor Pruitt. So that's before you count, sir Carmichael Greb councillor Perutz a councillor Lee. All those opposed councillor holiday, chair, Robinson, Kallstrom, led that motion loses on a tie. Vote.

F

C

Motion is councillor holidays councillor.

B

C

So councillor well I think he wanted to vote on all of them. He asked for a recorded. Did you concerts it? Did you ask for a recorded vote on all of them? Yes, he did it's.

B

A recorded vote on the motion before from Council early all those in favor chair, Robinson, councillor Lee councillor milady, all those opposed councillor, Carmichael grab councillor holiday councillor perotta. That motion fails on a tie vote so.

C

The next motion redundant then.

F

D

So I understand on a point of order. The implication of this motion I'm not sure what I'm referring at this point in time, because there's no recommendation I can do I, have the privilege of pulling this or withdrawing this motion considering I think the next one in order is the the motion to receive.

B

Speaker or chair a motion to a document. The item which is before you, which is the recommendation in the report to receive all those in favor councillor holiday, chair, Robinson, councillor m'lady, all those opposed councillor Carmichael grab councillor Chinle councillor purusa. That motion fails on a tied vote. The item will go to counsel without recommendations.

C

Next item and I know everybody has commitments they need to get to. So we need to really move quickly on these next items, so we can wrap up. So the next item is item 12, and that item is the utility locates I believe this is a referral for a report. I think counselor family. Do you held it so.

F

F

Because I don't understand this in its entirety, are we still charging local be IAS for these real oak locates.

C

Yeah, why don't we have miles address it? Yeah are.

S

You, madam chair, presently, each VI is responsible for funding and arranging the locates as they are the owner of the plant.

C

Just to be clear this, this is a request for stuff to write a report on this issue, consular mammal ad, just so you're aware, so we have economic development in there along.

F

With this issue, there should be a whole other. There should be a whole slew of other things that you report on and that's how much we have gouged our local BIA s with other costs like its street furniture policies and in particular, the stones and and and how much we're charging them now. Can someone quickly elaborate on how much we just approved to charge be IAS for those ventures recently.

P

For you, madam chair, the recently adopted policy on.

I

Material that would be used by bas and the standard that city has.

O

Has not set an increased amount.

P

On those bas, well, that's the city still undertakes a 50-50 cost-sharing when it comes to streetscape enhancements with bis right.

F

But we have increased the value of those materials to be IAS and yes, you're right is still 50/50, but we've increased the value of those of those costs of materials to an unaffordable unprecedent amount of money and and and I I'd, like any future report, to talk about how much we've got our bi ace in in this. In this sense, are we going to be doing that with this report to.

C

Transportation or to economic development, this tomato in the room and they may overseas.

F

I don't know who I'm speaking to madam chair I'm, doing it through you right now. But but my point is it's not just about this. For me, it's about all the money that we are now seeking from our local BIA s right and what we've done to them over the last year or so can.

C

I ask economic development to address your question through.

P

You, madam chair, certainly.

S

As part of this report, that's coming forward in October on specifically on utility locate fees. We.

N

Can address in general.

P

S

Fees that are applicable to business improvement area.

F

Not in general sense, I think the materials that have gone up dramatically for bi A's are costing them to the point where they can't not use those materials anymore because they can't afford it. Can we be more specific in terms of the increase of costs to be IAS over the last little while as well as this or not I'm? Sorry counselor, Davis I'm, not talking to you but I'm, not talking to you and you're. Okay.

A

Through the chair, I think counselor. When you take a look at the report and the request to report back, it really deals with the cost associated with an obligation that we have provincially to undertake locates of underground infrastructure. Before we, a contractor begins to dig so there's an obligation for all utilities and the BIA s, because they are owners of underground plant, have an obligation to ensure that locates are undertaken and there's a cost associated with that work before any underground construction takes place. So that's what the report is about. It's really specific to the.

F

Answer to the question about me wanting everyone to know exactly how much we've increased the costs associated to the BIA is not going to be a part of this upcoming report through.

A

The chair- it's not material to this report. That would be from my standpoint. It would be a separate request, separate and apart from the request before you in terms of reporting back on locate specifically.

C

Councilor ma'am led I have a motion that I'd like to put forward. You might want to add or amend to it. So if I could do that at this time, yeah that okay, no we're in we're in committee, there's the motion.

N

C

Then you should have spoken up because we went into committee with.

N

C

You want to speak on the item or you want to ask questions. Okay, that's fine! Go ahead!.

N

C

Sorry I thought you wanted to ask questions. So I was confused. Yes,.

H

Sorry and that now I'm confused that there's another motion coming for it's.

C

Just your emotion tweet, as per the clerk's, the city clerk's, it's the same motion, but it was Kane's properly written by the Department.

H

N

H

So I am here to speak in favor of this originally was my motion, and the intention is to look at ways that we could support the BI A's in meeting their obligations under the new provincial regulations.

H

It seems to me that while we enter into relationships with the BI A's and they invest their Levy into our infrastructure, and we acknowledge that infrastructure is theirs all of that infrastructures in our public right-of-way and one of our BIA s is having some expressed some concerns about this obligation to the provincial government, which is how I found out about this. Although I went back and saw that reread the original report, we also have an obligation as a city, to provide the information anytime. Anyone is doing any work in the BIA areas.

H

Both the city and the BIA are obligated under provincial regulations, to have a contractor to go in and to provide the locates that are in the affected area. I think this is ridiculous. It's a duplication.

H

It in the end is our infrastructure, I, believe paid for by someone else, but it is in the public, right-of-way. So I think we need to look at options for how we can do this in a way, that's more streamlined and also to look at on some efficiencies in costs or the reduction in duplication, so that maybe one contractor is doing it or maybe the city would pick up the cost.

H

Those are options that might come before us in this report and at that point we should give the BIA as an option to come forward and speak about the burden that this place is on them. They raise their. They raise their own money to help beautify our streets and I. Don't think that should also burden them with the additional obligation of of paying the exorbitant costs for these locates under on one call. Thank you.

C

Okay, counselor m'lady: let's.

F

Just get something straight out and out of the clear there's a reason you don't hear from the BIA s as much as we'd like and that's because most of the time they'd like to speak against city policies that are hurting them, as as there are their own identity and they're not allowed to legally. So they can't come here and say anything, that's contrary to our policy. Okay and BIA s can't do that legally. So so that's why you don't see them objecting.

F

That's why you don't see them here, but I assure you, those boards, the board meetings of our of your bas. You all hear it for yourself, they're not happy with what's going on and we're just letting it go on right. This is just one one of the many things that they're unhappy with there could be they're being gouged with these kinds of costs, and they can't afford it right and then, and then the material and I need to bring this out.

F

The material costs that we have we have borne on them now is unaffordable to the point where many of these smaller bas in particular, are not going to be able to buy their colored stones anymore. They're not going to be able to put that unique flavor on their communities. They're gonna go back to concrete and they're gonna go back to asphalt because we're making them go broke and we're fiing everybody to death in this city, everybody- and so it's this is the point I'm trying to make here- is that everybody should know. What's going on.

F

It's like it's like these hidden fees that are going on everywhere, and we just let it let it go. Our community BRE s are not going to be able to survive the way they are. If we keep seeing them to death like this right. That's why they're crying and in those board meetings you will hear them say we can't go contrary legally to the city's bylaws and the city's policies.

F

So they can't even talk to us about other feeling right, we're the ones the councilors know it and and we're the ones that are supposed to do something about it. So that's why I wrote it Madame Madame chair. It may not be in order and I apologize if I want all the information to come out, but I'm not gonna end.

F

It here, I think I think somebody needs to speak for them and councillors, Davis, I, hope, you're, right, I, hope you can get the costs offset somehow so that they don't have to pay even for these costs, but I, don't think that's what's gonna happen here, I, don't I think in fact it's gonna be worse for them. I'll wait for the report, but I I'm, not I'm, not counting on something good that comes out of this I. Think it's gonna be worse. Let's just get rid of the A's.

F

If we don't, if we don't want to support those, let's just say it: let's come out and say: let's stop them, let's stop it then right there they're our best friends when it comes to saving the city money, guys I'm kind of into myself right now.

F

They're, our best friends when it comes to certain things and we treat them like our worst enemies at times and that's how all of them are feeling right now, whether we want to admit it or not,.

C

Thank you very much.

C

Councillor Holliday would like to speak.

D

I'm not going to support caring forward on this I. Just have this picture of a big ladle dipping into the tax base again scooping some more dollars, I would say: I am sympathetic to the plight of BIA is I, think they're working hard to try to do something better for the community that they're in, but I'm, not sure that I have to pass along decisions that were made before and the cost implications the life cycle cost implications of those decisions now on to the taxpayer.

D

You know what probably people had good intentions when they decided to buy it to build that electrical pole or install that piece of equipment, but no one stopped and thought about that at the time about what does this mean in terms of its life cycle? Yeah part of the life cycle is going to be you're. Gonna have to explain to people that are digging around there where the wires are and that's gonna take some work, some effort, maybe some cost, but to now say well, let's stick it to the taxpayers in the city.

D

I appreciate the businesses in those bis or taxpayers, but stick it to the general tax base, and that was part of the discussion with the pavers. Is there was this incremental extra cost that somehow ended up trickling to the tax base and I'm, not sure that that's right and I think you know, there's a there's, a process that needs to be strengthened here.

D

I think the BIA is need to be supported so that when they make these choices, these improvements, these changes, they've got full sight of all of these costs and they've got a plan for it and when they've got all that figured out, then we should be moving on with supporting them in the decision, not catching the things that fall through later on and so I. Just can't I can't support this at this point in time.

C

Okay, thank you, I'm, actually going to cancer holidays. Inspired me to also vote against this, and I and I was placing the motion simply because it needed to be placed because it was technical amendments, so maybe councillor mammal ad can place it for us, but I also agree with him. Having had conversations with the former general manager of Transportation, this could end up being very costly for taxpayers. It is above and beyond, as councilor holiday has described so I'd like to echo his comments.

C

I am a huge fan and proponent of the BIA s at work with mine, closely they're incredible organizations, but this what this is about is above and beyond and incremental costs, as well as when they're doing something very elaborate. Then they should have to fund that particular items. So this is a complex issue.

C

It's confusing on first read, but I have had a number of conversations with staff over the last couple years on this, and it could be end up being very costly to the taxpayer and it's based on something that might be above and beyond what the taxpayer should be funding. So I'm going to ask councilor mammal lady to move the clerk commotion clerks motions that they've tweaked and I'm going to both be voting with councilor holiday. Oh.

F

Man, madam chair, will move your motion. I'll say that I see be a similar to. There are 3p models working with the private sector as well, and there's no reason to come in to to work these kinds of equations out with the private sector to help out with those costs. Do you want.

C

To amend it, do you want a menu that won't.

F

Just give you the logic as to motion, because it's not just a book cost it's about a.

C

Did you amend the motion to add that in decide? Well few words to add in that concept did.

F

I, don't see that I don't see this any different than any other 3p model.

C

So could you say and staff to review that model the.

F

F

No because it's still the private sector, it's it's, the business community, that's working our communities with with the city and where you.

C

Could see corporate partnerships I, don't know it's up to you. I'll.

F

Say corporate partnerships will work with the with the clerk on it. Okay, you know what counselor de Ville is hackling I'm, not doing anything. You can take it to Council.

C

No I think that's an excellent point: counselor purty roots all.

C

Right now, there's nothing before us.

C

What's before us is the council, the the recommendation from staff was simply to adopt.

C

My cry I've been corrected, it's from it came from again I'm, not a fan of these, but it came from Council as a recommendation of home councillor Davis I.

G

Will take that on and move that exactly what you had written before the waiting so.

C

Councillor meet Lee is moving that no all those in favor.

G

C

The clerk's amendment to councillor Davis's motion from Council is.

G

The same as a what comes to Janet Davis put forward, but with the date change, October 18th, that's right and it's for a report to come back to look at all the different options and implications for the city coordinating the performance of locates. So we are not making policy changes. We're not really asking for report coming back here to identify what the issues are and also the cost and the various options. So we are not making any decisions.

G

Now we are asking for report back so that this staff can provide us the information to make that decision. You know one of the waiting.

N

R

C

G

Question of the day is Christmas: we'll have the informations everybody decision on October, 18, okay,.

C

Thank You councillor Lee and uh we're gonna vote on that now. Okay,.

D

Just so I understand the voting sequence are we gonna vote twice first to amend and then the item is amended. Am I correct, just to amend the item so there's one vote on this. Okay. Thank you kindly.

C

Okay, all those in favor.

C

And that's three opposed that's three, so it loses on a tie. Okay, we're gonna move on to the next item. We really have to wrap up cuz I know people are under the gun, Oh.

C

Ivan Ivan I've been advised from the clerk, oh okay, so let's can we can we quickly do the last couple items here: they'd be very fast if everybody can just stay tuned, so the first one I know councillor lateness here, because these are his items, but he missed the debate at the beginning of the meeting and so he's not completely in the loop. So what I've been advised? Actually, the councillor m'lady brace yourselves, is indeed correct.

C

This climate adoption and managing Toronto's stormwater in the face of climate change. There was a comprehensive report: 2017 wet weather flow master plan implementation status, update April, 24th 2017, so this item is actually redundant deemed redundant and what we can do with it is to go back to councilor family. These original idea of deferring it indefinitely or we can refer it to staff. Those are really our options, because if you remember this report, it's covered off in here.

C

So what would committee like to do? If, because we we voted on deferring it indefinitely, it lost, so we can either go back to procedurally reopening that, or also the other option is to refer this to stuff.

B

G

C

So counts, concert, holiday.

C

Is that okay, yep.

G

M

Is there an opportunity to speak to the item if I was if I was to be very brief, sure I'm happy with that I just I I had I had hoped that the difference between this and the original well, the from a master plan update, was that it was looking for new tools and that's essentially what I was asking there.

M

If I've got to go to a think-tank or university and find those tools and not specifically about them, then that's what I'll do if it's the will of this committee I was just hoping given, given just the amount of water and precipitation we got this year. If public works committee isn't willing to consider stormwater management in light of the the islands close for three months, hurricanes wreaking havoc on the South America's I.

M

Just don't see what the point is of the committee, if you're not going to at least look at storm water management in light of the recent developments, so I'm I'm fine to bring one offs here and there I suspect they'll all get referred, but I'm quite happy to keep doing it. Thank you.

C

I think we have a motion motion. Okay, go ahead.

D

The motion is to refer to staff for consideration. Okay,.

C

We have a motion before us all those in favor opposed that carries okay, that ain't him is done, okay and on the other item, councillor Layton up also I'm, assuming you're here for again I've got an update from staff on this issue. This is the cool idea, the dock, less bike sharing but again I have an update for committee. This is already employ it's going to executive committee in November report from the Toronto parking authority to talk about bike, share issues and funding model, and this is part and parcel of that.

C

So what committee could do today's ask this to be included as part of the reporting back by the general manager of transportation as part of this November executive report, what the Toronto parking authority so we're being asked to refer, so the we're being it's being recommended by the clerk to refer. It is everybody: okay with that yeah all in favor that carries and then the last item is councillor Pasternak's councillor Perutz. It has a motion on this.

N

Councillor passed an agonized share of section of Dufferin Street, not to make good luck he's he sort of wanted to open it up for everybody and I think we need to. We need to kind of go slow and I just want to give the staff the ample opportunity to think about what this section of Dufferin Street might look like in the future and who might use it because that, as you all know, we spent somewhere in the neighborhood of about 40 million dollars.

N

Some time go to create a bus away from the current Downsview station up to York University and as the subway comes into operation later this year. We need to think about what that bus way may be used for in the future and I. Think the my my motion, unlike councillor Pasternak's motion, gives the staff a lens that a much bigger lens to look at how and what this street might look like and who these lanes might be used by on the forward, go forward basis and it's something.

N

I I worked with staff on and and they're very, very comfortable with it. It also expands the timelines. A little bit because I believe that there's a transit, some transit studies and a transit work, that's also going on for this area, and we need to bring that all back together at at one time in one way, and it was with a you know, broad, with a broader review.

C

From councilor holiday.

D

Thank you, madam chair I, just wanted to know if in the preparation of the motion, if you work things out with councilor Pasternak on that, and if he's supportive of this motion, because I guess it's a shared border or edge well,.

N

Yeah, it's a shirt Street, so councillor Pasternak, councillor, Passyunk, has brought several motions, are ready to North York Community Council in in in sort of opening up the the lanes. I mean he's made his views very clear on this. He would like those lanes to be used by everybody. That's essentially what he brought forward several years ago and I understand. He gets the same pressure put on him by his residence. That I, do you know like people, would like look at the lane and say well. Why should buses only be on it?

N

You know I should be able to use it as well. Well, we built it for buses because we built the bus way to take people from Downsview station to York University. You know it's like 2400 buses going to York University daily right. That's why we did it. That's why we spent 40 million dollars as a city to do so now that the buses, some of the buses, might be coming off, that roadway, I. Think staff should have an opportunity to look at that and say well, there's no buses, there's still others.

N

So, let's, let's see what and how it might be used on a go-forward basis, and that's all my motion does as opposed to just simply say to them: go: do a study on how you open it up for everybody right, yeah,.

C

I have to agree like I also wish councillor. Pasternak was here that you had consulted with him, because we don't know how he feels about this adjustment. I just.

N

Explained to you how he feels it's.

C

N

Clear at North York, where you and I say.

C

Number of places once a month, yeah.

N

B

C

Sorry go ahead.

D

Madam chair I, guess on a point of order, if you guided me on how to do this, I know that I'd spoke in a counselor, pastor nock, and he was clear about the desire to eliminate so I wondered if councilor boots that we considered as a friendly amendment to include the words it.

N

Does include that, for everybody does.

D

It say so you either amend or eliminate, would be my recommendation and we'll let the report read. Is the report really I.

N

Think they're going to look at every at everything, I, council holiday, I, think it looks at allowing cars single single person, OCH occupied cars, as well as everybody else.

D

N

D

I got the advice that it does. Indeed, it cover the scenario that it would. It could be proposed to remove the lanes, which I think meets the spirit of council pastor. That's motion, the only difference being the time frame and I think I appreciate that there might be a bit of time required.

C

N

There's also a transit study, that's being done and they should all come together as opposed to in peace. That's right thank.

D

C

So all in favor that carries and that's a wrap. Thank you, everybody for their patience and staying through lunch. That was very helpful to get that all accommodated. We are officially adjourned.

C