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From YouTube: Kubernetes Operating System (The Podlets, Ep 20)
Description
Running Kubernetes on conventional operating systems is time-consuming and labor-intensive. Today’s guests Andrew Rynhard and Timothy Gerla have engineered a product that attempts to provide a solution to this problem. They call it Talos, and it is a modern OS designed specifically to host Kubernetes clusters, managed by a flexible and powerful API. Talos is completely stripped down to the bare components required to run Kubernetes and get information from the system. It stays updated by keeping time with Kubernetes, but also provides the user with a large degree of control in the event that they might need to update a flag. In this episode, Andrew and Timothy get into some of the mechanics and thought processes behind Talos, telling us why they went with a read-only API, how they handle security concerns on the OS, and how a system like theirs might get adopted by the Kubernetes community and layperson more broadly. They get into the advantages provided by a stripped-down solution for systematizing the use of Kubernetes across communities and running new components through clusters rather than on the OS itself. In a space where most participants are largely operating in the dark, it is a pleasure to see innovations like this display such lasting power so make sure you check out this episode.
For the show notes and transcript: https://thepodlets.io/episodes/020-kubernetes-operating-systems
Feedback and episode suggestions:
https://twitter.com/thepodlets
https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepo...
info@thepodlets.io
Guests
- Andrew Rynhard https://twitter.com/andrewrynhard
- Tim Gerla https://twitter.com/tybstar
Hosts
https://twitter.com/carlisia
https://twitter.com/opowero
https://twitter.com/bryanl
B
So
Andrew
and
Timothy
are
from
tellers
the
so
Andrew
dropped
an
issue
or
now
github
repo,
and
here
we
are.
It
was
a
great
suggestion.
What
we're
going
to
talk
about
today
is
while
they
are
working
on,
which
is
a
kubernetes
operating
system.
We
have
tons
of
questions
for
them
for
sure.
We
also
have
a
special
participants
on
the
episode
today
as
a
co-host,
Chad
Salazar,
hi
John.
B
E
C
You
know
everything
that
is
required
to
run
the
couplet,
and
essentially
that's
that's
it,
at
least.
In
my
opinion,
it
should
be
super
minimal
to
start
with.
Second
of
all,
I
also
think
that
it
should
integrate
with
kubernetes
as
well,
so
the
combination
of
just
you
know
being
able
to
strip
down
Linux,
as
we
know
it
as
small
as
possible
and
then
actually
integrating
with
kubernetes
itself,
using
api's
to
figure
out
things
about
itself,
whatever
I
think
that
that,
in
my
opinion,
is
what
I
would
call
a
kubernetes
OS.
E
E
There's
been
lots
of
effort.
You
know
to
from
lots
of
people
trying
to
get
kubernetes
running
up
on
Ubuntu
or
fedora
and
I
said,
and
it's
and
it's
cool
that
you're
trying
to
slim
this
down,
but
really,
why
would
I
look
at
a
kubernetes
operating
system?
Over
my
you
know,
my
my
Linux
and
I'm,
familiar
with
I
like
Ubuntu
and
Debian.
C
Sure
that's
a
great
question:
it's
one!
We
get
a
lot
and
I
like
to
think
that
you
actually
just
get
less
operational
overhead
when
you
actually
have
a
kubernetes,
specific
operating
system.
I
think
that
kubernetes
itself
is
a
job
managing
it
getting
it
installed
and
fortunately
it's
getting
better,
but
it's
still
a
job
at
the
end
of
the
day
having
to
manage
kubernetes
and
the
operating
system.
Everything
that
you
need
to
you
know
pass
compliance
on
the
operating
system
get
all
the
packages
installed.
C
These
are
all
things
that
we
kind
of
know
that
kubernetes
needs
already
and
yet
we're
still
having
to
go
in,
and
you
know
apt,
install
whatever
we
might
need
to
get
kubernetes
up
and
running.
The
idea
with
the
kubernetes
operating
system,
in
my
mind,
is
that
we
should
stop
worrying
about
the
individual,
know
the
underlying
operating
system
and
start
looking
at
kubernetes
as
a
whole
as
a
giant
machine,
and
we
just
add
machines.
C
You
know
nodes
to
this
giant
machine
that
give
us
extra
resources,
so
the
less
that
we
have
to
care
about
the
machine
or
the
underlying
operating
system,
the
better.
In
my
mind,
we
get
to
we
get
to
focus
on
kubernetes
and
not
only
that,
but
because
it's
minimal
you
get
a
smaller
attack
surface,
there's
just
not
things
there
that
you
would
otherwise
have
to
worry
about.
I've
know:
I've
done
kubernetes,
for
you
know
three
years
now
and
having
to
go
in
and
worry
about
updating
packages
that
are
just
completely
unrelated.
C
It's
something
that
I
think
we
shouldn't
have
to
do
anymore.
Everything
if
you're
dedicated
to
running
your
apps
in
your
you
know
your
stack
in
kubernetes,
then.
Why
are
we
going
in
and
managing
the
notes
on
an
individual
basis
and
for
that
matter,
managing
things
that
don't
really
have
any
relevance
for
running
kubernetes?
D
D
C
That's
a
that's
a
great
question,
I
think
the
biggest
thing
that
I
always
answer
back
is.
You
know
like
to
take
this
in
two
parts.
Let
me
first
of
all
talk
about
what
you
know:
people
they
do
want
to
run
things
on
the
host
and
my
answer
always
back
is:
can
you
run
it
in
kubernetes?
You
know,
kubernetes
is
sort
of
your
package
manager.
If,
if
you
will
so
you
know
they
sit
back
usually
and
they're
like
yeah
I,
probably
could
you
know
if
you
need
to
run
any
run?
Something
on
every
host.
C
Criminales
has
something
for
that.
It's
a
daemon
set,
run
it
on
kubernetes
and
call
it
a
day,
and
you
know
this:
isn't
this
isn't
something
that's
gonna
work
for
absolutely
everything.
I!
Imagine
nothing
in
the
world
is
always
like
that,
but
you
know
I
think
for
the
majority
of
the
use
cases
out
there
and
for
the
things
that
people
want
to
run
on
the
host.
You
could
actually
just
run
it
in
kubernetes
itself.
C
Now,
as
far
as
SSH
and
for
those
that
don't
really
know
what
we've
done
in
Talos
and
tell
us
we've
actually
stripped
down,
you
know
tell
us
just
the
kernel
and
a
small
going
binary.
That's
our
knit
that
is
basically
its
whole
goal,
is
to
create
a
kubernetes
cluster
or
make
a
node
part
of
a
kubernetes
cluster
as
fast
as
possible,
and
that's
really
it
and
we've
gone
so
far
as
ripping
out
bash
and
SSH,
and
we've
actually
replaced
that
with
an
API.
So
my
answer
always
back
to
the
SSH
question,
is
I.
C
You
know
what
is
it
that
you're
really
trying
to
get
out
of
SSH
and
nine
times
out
of
ten?
Its
I
want
to
get
information
about.
What's
wrong,
I
want
to
do
troubleshooting.
So
if
our
answer
back
to
them
is
oh,
we
have
an
API
for
that.
It's
you
still
at
the
end
of
the
day,
it's
really
the
information
that
you're
after
it's,
not
necessarily
that
you
need
SSH
to
do
that.
C
You
need
a
way
to
get
this
information
and
not
necessarily
have
to
sit
there
and
wait
for
you
know
prometheus
metrics
to
get
pulled
every
minute.
You
want
something
right
on
the
spot.
You
want
to
ask
a
question.
You
want
to
get
an
immediate
answer
and
I
feel
like
we
can
answer
that
with
in
with
an
API,
and
that
that
tends
to
you
know
satisfy
that.
The
the
desire
for
wanting
SSH
most
of
the
time
I
mean,
as
you
say,
people
are
still
gonna
want
to
hold
on
to
it,
but
I
think
over
time.
C
A
Student
yeah,
we
do
provide
a
command-line
interface
to
the
API,
it's
it's
called
OS
CTL
and
it
basically
wraps
our
API
and-
and
our
intention
is
that
you
know
that'll-
be
used
for
exploration
of
the
system,
automation
through
scripting
languages,
etc.
And
then,
as
you
get
more
sophisticated
with
with
your
environment,
you
might
begin
to
build
your
own
tools
that
interact
directly
with
that
API
cool.
B
B
Excuse
me,
I,
haven't
talked
here
today,
so
how
opinionated
is
in
your
case
and
specific?
Is
it
when
you
say
you
it's
a
stripped
down
version
to
the
bare
minimum,
there's
a
statement
of
pair
minimum?
Would
it
be?
Would
there
be
a
consensus
in
the
community
that,
yes,
this
set
of
functionality
is
the
bare
minimum
or
is
a
your
opinion
of
what
the
bare
minimum
should
be.
C
Sure
I
think
at
the
absolute
bare
minimum
we
need
to
run
the
couplet
and
in
my
mind,
that's
that's
really
all
we
need,
but
you
still
have
this
practical
issue
of.
Like
I
said
you
need
to
get
information
off
that
machine.
You
need
to
be
able
to
kind
of
manage
kubernetes
without
having
to
need
kubernetes
as
a
chicken
and
eggs
problem.
So
that's
where
the
API
was
actually
born
when
I,
actually,
when
it
started,
Talos
I
actually
just
built
a
very
minimal
trip
down
route.
C
Fs
that
all
it
did
was
run
the
coublon
but
figuring
out
why
the
couplet
wasn't
running
successfully,
obviously
was
not
very
easy,
so
I
figured
you
know
what
let's
put
an
API
in
front
of
this
I.
Don't
I
want
to
keep
this
as
minimal
as
possible.
I
want
to
keep
this
read-only
and
so
I
threw
an
API
in
front
of
it,
and
so
I
think
you
need
two
things
really.
You
need
to
have
what's
required
by
the
couplet.
C
You
need
a
CNI.
You
need
all
the
utilities
that
the
couplet
will
run
and
you
also
need
a
way
to
you
know,
query
the
system,
and
if
that
is
if,
in
the
case
of
other
operating
systems
that
are
minimal
operating
systems,
they
have
decided
to
do
SSH
and
all
the
classic
utilities
that
we
all
know
and
love.
We
went
to
another
another
route
with
an
API,
but
I,
don't
think
the
operating
system.
The
route
of
s
should
have
any
more
than
what's
required
by
the
by
the
couplet
that
that
would
be.
B
The
two
questions
that
come
to
my
mind
are:
if
I
wanted
to
add
coronaries
components
today.
Would
it
would
it
be
possible
and
if
I
wanted
to
add
anything
to
the
operating
system,
would
it
be
possible?
I?
Think
the
second
question
you
already
answered,
which
is
well
if
you
need
to
run
correct
me
if
I'm
wrong.
If
you
need
to
run
something
on
the
operating
system,
that's
not
there.
You
can
run
it
in
the
actual
cluster.
C
Yeah,
that's!
The
idea
is
that
kubernetes
gives
us
the
API
is
to
do
you
know
we
can
schedule
two
specific
nodes.
We
can
schedule
to
a
class
of
nodes.
We
can
schedule
to
every
single
node,
so
I
think
that
you
can
actually
handle
a
lot
of
the
use
cases
out
there
for
any
kind
of
application,
with
kubernetes
itself
and
I.
Think
that
that's
really
strong,
because
you
get
one
single,
consistent
API
in
managing
your
infrastructure,
I
want
to
deploy
applications
for
this
team
or
this
team.
C
E
C
Our
goal
is
to
keep
pace
with
kubernetes.
Essentially,
I
know
that
traditionally
there's
no
long-term
support
and
there's
there's
all
these
different
ways
of
you
know
releasing
different
versions
of
an
operating
system,
but
kubernetes
isn't
really
there.
Yet.
There
is
no
notion
that
I
know
of
LTS
in
kubernetes,
yet
there's
just
the
I
believe
it's
n
minus
2,
or
something
like
that
where
they
actually
offer
official
support
and
so
I
think
that
the
operating
system
is
bound
to
that.
I
think
that
it
needs
to
follow
kubernetes
as
close
as
possible.
C
There's
constantly
different,
you
know,
feature
gates
being
opened
up,
there's
things
being
graduated
to
GA,
so
I
think,
especially
at
this
time.
Right
now,
as
rapid
as
the
technology
is
changing,
you
need
an
operating
system
that
is
going
to
evolve
with
it,
or
at
least
the
operations
intelligence
to
evolve
with
kubernetes
right
alongside.
E
C
C
We've
decided
to
go
the
other
route
where
we
actually
want
to
evolve
our
api's
sort
of
independently,
but
then
give
you
a
way
to
still
manage
kubernetes
on
its
own,
so
we've
actually
done
self,
hosted
kubernetes
so
and
tell
us,
will
actually
bootstrap
a
lightweight
control,
plane,
small
control,
plane
and
then
we'll
spin
up
another
control
plane
using
the
kubernetes
api
and
then
now
kubernetes
upgrades
simply
look
like
you
know:
a
coop
CTL
that
I'm
gonna
roll
out.
My
you
know.
C
I'm
gonna
update
my
demon
set
for
my
api
server
and
then
you
know
from
there.
You
will
have
to
basically
update
the
the
coop
we
use
hypercube
for
the
crew
blade.
You
have
to
tell
Talos
use
this
Kubla
image
next
time
you
boo
and
so
we've
we've
separated
the
two
I
think
for
good
reason:
I
think
that
the
two
should
be
able
to
evolve
independently
to
give
a
little
bit
more
power
back
to
the
user.
C
If
you
combine
them,
if
you
couple
them
really
closely,
it
becomes
really
really
opinionated
I
think
we
should
at
least
cover
what
crew
or
sorry.
We
should
at
least
support
what
crew
but
any
supports,
and
that's
the
n
minus
two
and
leave
it
up
to
the
user
to
kind
of
configure
kubernetes,
but
we
still
have
same
best
practices
out
of
the
box.
Yeah.
E
That
makes
sense,
because
yesterday
what
did
we
get
it?
We
got
a
kubernetes,
1.15
dot
10,
I
don't
know
16
we
got,
but
we
got
one
dot
17.3
yesterday
too,
so
you
might
not
want
to
move
because
you
might
not
what
1.17
introduced
a
whole
bunch
of
deprecations
and
like
for
custom,
resource
definitions
and
you're,
not
ready
to
move.
Yet
you
want
to
easy
one
beta
one
for
a
while
for
CRTs,
so
I
can
totally
see
why
you
would
move
that
direction.
C
C
E
B
Yeah,
it's
it's
just
because
released
from
speaking
for
myself,
I'm
super
curious
I
wanted
to
ask
you
Andrew.
At
the
beginning,
you
were
saying
that
kubernetes
operating
system
needs
to
integrate
with
kubernetes
and
I
was
sitting
here
thinking
properly.
It
is
supposed
to
be
kubernetes.
Why?
What
are
you
having
my
money
said
that
you
do
mean
to
be
able
to
interface
with
another
kubernetes
cluster,
but
you
was
that
what
you
meant.
C
B
C
C
Part
of
that
is,
for
example,
when
when
you
receive
the
upgrade
API
on
a
Telus
node,
it
actually
is
aware:
hey
I'm,
running
kubernetes,
I'm
gonna
cordon
myself,
because
I
know
I've
gotten
this
and
I
know
that
I'm
not
gonna
be
able
to
schedule.
Workload
on
me
I
think
that
that's
just
one
example,
but
we
could
probably
take
that
a
lot
a
lot
farther
one
day,
but
I
would
like
to
see
everything
that
we
know
and
love
about.
B
E
D
E
D
Was
I
was
wondering
if
we
can
kind
of
maybe
just
pivot
a
little
bit
like,
maybe
to
satisfy
my
own
curiosity,
but
I
was
kind
of
hoping.
We
could
talk
a
little
bit
about
like
some
of
the
the
selling
features.
So
like
imagine,
if
I
may,
you
know
hardens
sysadmin
or
a
security
team,
and
basically
someone
comes
up
and
you
know
says:
hey
I
want
to
run
this
kubernetes
operating
system.
D
Knowing
what
I
know
about
you
know
the
state
of
security
today
in
operating
systems,
you
know,
there's
there's
a
lot
of
efforts
to
basically
kind
of
contain
things
right
like
no
pun
intended,
but
you
know
we
have
like
users
base
operates
out
of
some
type
of
sandbox.
You
know
we
have
set
komp2
limits.
This
calls
like
how
does
Telos
approach
security,
maybe
like
philosophically
or
maybe
even
down
to
the
implementation
details
like
what
is
security
and
tell
us
a
third.
C
Yeah
so
again,
our
goal
is
to
basically
we
want
people
to
forget
about
the
operating
system,
but
to
forget
about
the
operating
system.
You
have
to
know
it's
secure.
You
have
to
go
to
great
lengths
to
secure
that
because
you
can't
forget
about
it.
For
that
reason,
so
we
actually
go
down
to
the
kernel.
We
actually
apply.
What's
called
the
self
protection,
the
kernel
self
protection
project,
we
we
basically
try
to
harden
the
kernel
and
at
boot
time
we
do
a
bunch
of
checks
to
make
sure
that
your
kernel
is
running.
C
C
C
So
then,
going
up
the
stack
further
we've
actually
stripped
out,
SSH
we've
stripped
out
and
bash.
So
you
have
nothing
that
you
can
really
log
on
to
anymore.
So
again,
that
just
flat-out
removes
a
lot
of
you
know:
whole
category
of
potential
attacks,
potentially
going
even
further
than
that.
We've
actually
have
completely
out
of
RAM
and
it's
a
squatch
FS.
So
it's
a
read-only
file
system.
The
only
thing
that
actually
uses
a
disk
is
the
couplet,
and
so
it
the
idea
is
that
we
really
we
want
to
make
the
operating
system
again.
C
Just
have
it
go
away
and
so
having
it
read,
only
I
think
is
a
really
strong
thing
and
and
squash
FS
in
particular,
because
you
can't
remount
it
as
we.
You
know,
read
write
if
you're
a
root
user
or
something
like
that
and
then
up
in
kubernetes
we
actually
out-of-the-box.
We
try
to
deploy
it
with
all
of
the
all
of
the
security
best
practices,
the
CIS
benchmarks,
and
all
of
that,
so
we
go
to
you
know
all
the
way
from
the
kernel
to
our
user
land
and
even
to
kubernetes
itself.
E
No,
let's
not
go
back
to
an
interrogation,
so
thinking
of
so,
if
you
take
the
concept
of
kubernetes
operating
system
that
can
be
updated
and
the
different
cadence,
then
it's
then
the
kubernetes
running
on
it
who-who's
Talos,
for
is
it.
Who
does
it
make
could
could
you
know,
could
Joe
as
a
neophyte
or
you
know
someone
who
doesn't
really
know
the
space?
Will
this
make
their
life
any
easier,
or
is
there
a
special
set
of
expertise
that
we
would
need
to
to
be?
You
know
fruitful,
with
this
I.
A
Think,
for
from
our
perspective,
we
hope
that
everybody
who
uses
kubernetes
would
find
something
useful
in
Talos
or
a
system
like
Talos
number,
one
I
think
tell
us
would
be
a
great
way
to
get
started
on
your
laptop
or
workstation.
We've
got
some
got
some
basic
features
to
stand
up
as
small
kubernetes
cluster
there.
So
that's
that's
one
place
to
start
as
you
as
you
move
further
into
action.
A
We've
we've
talked
to
a
number
of
folks
who
have
been,
who
have
been
running
kubernetes
in
production
for
a
couple
of
years
now,
and
these
these
clusters
kind
of
come
up
organically
within
and
within
a
larger
organization
in
different
areas,
doing
different
things
for
the
business
managed
by
different
teams,
and
so
you
know
now
that
the
time
has
now
that
a
little
bit
of
time
has
passed.
These
organizations
are
realizing
that
hey
we've
got
kind
of
a
kubernetes
sprawl
problem.
We
have
this
team
over
here
on
Amazon
managing
and
running
kubernetes.
E
So
that's
interesting,
so
I
I've
worked
in
huge
companies
other
than
that
huge
company
I
work
in
now.
But
you
know
you
see
diversity
or
you
see
you
see,
lots
of
operating
systems,
I
see
different
problems
being
solved
and
maybe
that
the
metric
should
be
not
on
the
operating
system,
but
the
ability
to
hit
some
kind
of
metric
so,
but
not
saying
that
this
is
bad
I'm.
Just
saying
that's
just
how
that's
another
way
of
looking
at
this
yeah.
A
Definitely
I
could
see
the
argument,
for
you
know
one
team
managing
it
one
way
because
they're
solving
one
kind
of
a
problem
with
one
particular
set
of
restrictions
or
a
set
of
parameters,
but
it-
and
that
might
be
the
case
right.
I-
think
that,
for
example,
if
you
are
a
kubernetes
user
and
you're
using
one
of
the
managed
cloud
hosting
services
from
you,
know,
Amazon
or
Azure
or
or
GCE,
maybe
you
don't
need
to
worry
about
your
kubernetes
operating
system
may
be
whatever
the
provider
gives.
A
You
is
is
fine,
but
you
know
if
you,
if
you
have
infrastructure,
spread
across
different
environments,
you
will
probably
end
up
in
a
situation
where
you
do
need
to
have
some
kind
of
consistency
across
those.
Whether
it's
for
you
know
dealing
with
with
particular
security
problems
that
might
apply
to
kubernetes
in
general
and
you'll
need
some
way
to
you'll
need
some
some
overarching
design
plan
to
keep
those
to
keep
those
things.
Corralled.
A
E
C
That's
a
good
question
right
off
the
bat
I'm
gonna,
say:
I,
don't
really
know,
I
think
this
is
new
space.
I
think
that
I
think
we
have
a
big
task
in
front
of
us
already
in
in
getting
people
to
to
use
these
kinds
of
operating
systems,
hopefully
not
too
big
of
a
task
I'm
hoping
to
see
you
know
because
you
find
these
big
companies.
Oh,
we
can't
do
this.
A
Got
I've
got
it.
I've
got
a
thought
here,
so
one
of
the
things
that
that
I'm
really
interested
in
beyond
just
kubernetes
and
beyond
just
the
operating
system
like
you
know
what
what
is
computing
gonna
look
like
in
in
five
10
15
years,
I,
don't
know
if
kubernetes
is
gonna,
be
around
I'm
I'm
kind
of
a
tech
cynic
right,
I,
I,
see
I,
see
I've,
seen
a
lot
of
fads
in
my
career
and
things
that
pop
up
and
are
and
are
very
popular
for
a
couple
of
years
and
then
sort
of
disappear.
A
I,
don't
think
kubernetes
is
one
of
those
I
think
kubernetes
and
the
concepts
and
the
layers
of
abstraction
that
kubernetes
has
provided.
All
of
that
will
will
remain
useful
and
powerful
in
in
the
in
the
distant
future,
whether
or
not
it's
called
kubernetes
or
if
it's
called
something
else,
some
some
new
paradigm,
but
what
I'm
really
interested
in
is
seeing.
What
can
we
do
with
this?
With
this
idea
of
an
API
managed
OS
right?
B
This
brings
up
a
point
that
that
it's
like
I'm
so
curious
about
not
only
the
idea
of
having
having
a
community
submarine
system,
but
any
idea
that
is
new
that
you
were
just
talking
about.
Tim
is
so
what
works
works,
for
example,
every
year
or
every
couple
years,
I
am
with
evaluating
a
new
code.
Editor
or
I
am
evaluating
a
new
note-taking
app
because
I
just
order
to
do
list
up
those
three
things
I'm
continuously
finding
something
to
evaluate,
because
what
I
have
doesn't
work.
B
It
has
never
worked
for
me
just
the
way,
I
think
actually
recently
I
found
a
couple
things
that
are
really
good.
In
any
case,
the
thing
is
it
they've
just
never
worked
for
years.
They
do
very
limited,
they
don't
match
my
thinking.
The
operating
system
I
would
never
well
I'm,
not
an
administrator
also,
but
it's
just
like
from
having
my
own
laptops
forever.
I'm
not
gonna,
go
out
there.
B
That's
not
true
either,
but
I
was
going
to
say,
I'm,
not
gonna,
go
out
there
and
try
a
new
operating
system
to
see
if
it's
offering
that
I
really
have,
and
then
it
might
be
better.
For
me,
but
that's
not
true,
because
I
have
never
mind,
but
I
think
that
idea
of
my
question
stands
is
how
are
you
communicating
to
people
out
there
that
hey
there
is
this
new
thing
that
maybe
it's
working
for
you?
B
Maybe
you
think
it's
working
for
you,
but
you
just
don't
know
that
there
is
a
new
different
way
of
doing
and
when
you
do
try
to
do
that.
How
are
people
responding
I
mean,
of
course,
that
there
are
those
cases
where
people
just
know
they
get
it
and
they
absolutely.
They
immediately
immediately
resonates
with
them,
but
I'm
talking
about
the
people
who,
like
my
benefit
from
this,
but
they
don't
quite
grasp.
So
how
do
you
break
through
the
barrier.
A
A
Yeah,
so
the
great
thing
about
Talos
is
that
people
understand
pretty
immediately
what
it
is,
how
it
works
and
why
we've
done
it,
the
the
challenge
I,
think
for
us
and
and
for
any
for
anybody
changing
the
way
that
operating
systems
work
is.
Is
it
better
than
is
it
better
than?
Is
it
better
enough,
then
what
what
I
have
today
or
what
I
had
before
and
is
it
worth
the
switching
cost
right
so
I
think
that
switching
cost
is
something.
A
That's
that's
that's
pretty
well
understood
in
the
industry
people
will
people
have
gone
through
this
process
and
they've
they've
moved
from
virtualization
to
containers
from
from
docker
to
kubernetes,
etc.
They
understand
that
process,
and
they
understand
there
is
a
there
is
a
technical
cost,
there's
a
people
cost
etc.
So
you
know
we
have
to.
We
have
to
show
that
value
and
I
think
that
progress
in
our
industry
is
is
incremental
right.
A
A
Clearly
we're
not
quite
there
yet
in
in
in
the
broader
world
of
computing,
so
I
think
anywhere
where
we
can
show
a
little
bit
of
incremental
improvement
where
we
can,
where
we
can
tackle
one
narrow
slice
of
a
problem
and
make
it
a
little
bit
better
and
and
get
to
a
point
where
you
know
computing
is
just
a
little
bit
safer
and
a
little
bit
easier
and
a
little
bit
faster.
I
think
that'll
be
a
pretty
compelling
argument
and
there's
a
lot
of
details
involved
and
we
have
to
talk
about.
A
How
do
you
get
your
applications
from
one
operating
system
to
the
next
15
years
ago?
It
may
it
may.
It
may
have
been
a
very
big
ask
to
ask
someone
to
port
their
their
enterprise
application
from
one
operating
system
to
another,
because
they
were
so.
You
know
they're,
so
inextricably
linked,
there's
a
lot
of
connections
between
the
OS
and
the
applications.
But
today
we
have
these
levels
of
abstraction.
A
We
have
containers,
we
have
the
the
kubernetes
orchestration
mechanisms
and
I
think
that
switching
cost
is
is
going
down
every
release
of
kubernetes
and
and
every
every
step
along
the
way,
as
as
people
change
the
way
that
applications
are
deployed
that
that
that
switching
cost
gets
a
little
bit
cheaper
and
it'll
be
a
little
be
easier
for
us
to
to
prove
that
the
value
you
gain
by
moving
to
a
purpose-built
operating
system
is
greater
than
the
switching
cost.
So.
D
You
know
I'm
part
of
a
team
called
customer
reliability,
engineering
and
we
see
operators
running
kubernetes
environments
that
are
durable
and
you
know
have
been
in
the
field
for
for
many
years
and
I
think
that
there's
kind
of
a
hidden
cost
in
these
kind
of
day
to
operations
where,
like
today
to
effectively
be
a
kubernetes
operator,
you
need
to
also
have
a
great
deal
of
understanding
of
Linux
internal
operating
systems
or
Linux
operating
systems
internals.
You
know
these
are
abstractions
on
on
top,
but
sometimes
those
abstractions
are
leaky.
D
So
you
need
to
be
able
to
parse
iptables
rules.
You
need
to
be
able
to
understand
how
traffic
is
routed
like
all
of
these
aspects
of
it
and
I'm.
Just
wondering
like
you
know,
how
do
we
kind
of
get
folks
shifted
from
this
mindset
of
I'm
gonna
start
with
something?
That's
you
know
general-purpose
and
then
I'm
going
to
basically
make
it
do
what
I
wanted
to
do
by
making
all
of
these.
D
You
know
configuration
changes
and
installing
things
on
top
of
it
to
kind
of
make
it
that
not
general-purpose,
but
you
know
kind
of
specific
focus
on
it
and
and
kind
of
get
people
to
move
back
more,
fundamentally
and
think.
Well
what
if
we
just
started
with
something
that
is
strictly
for
running
workloads
like
we
don't
have
to
worry
about
installing
a
security
suite
on
top
of
this
or
making
this
configuration
change
or
hardening.
You
know
requirements
or
what-have-you
like
like
we're
fundamentally
in
a
better
place,
because
we've
started
with
something
that's
arguably
more
secure,
so.
E
You
know
that
I
mean
I'm
old,
I'm
old,
now,
I'm
realizing
this
when
I
started
back
in
my
day
when
we
started
with
Linux,
we
went
through
this
whole
thing
of
Linux,
installers
and
and
there's
many
iterations
of
Linux
installers
and
it
depended
on
well.
Did
you
like
what
Red
Hat
was
doing
like
the
Debian
project
was
doing
like
what
arch
was
doing?
Oh
did
you
want
to
do
it
yourself
want
to
merge
the
world
with
Gentoo
and
really
we
come
to
this
point
now.
No
one
ever
talks
about
Linux
installers
anymore.
E
You
just
put
it
on
there
and
I.
Think
what
I'm
getting
at
is
that
it's
a
we
don't
actually
know
what
we
want.
I
mean.
We
say
that
we
want
it
to
be
simpler.
We
say
wanted
to
be
more
secure,
but
we
don't
know
only
time
will
tell
and
I
think
it's
gonna
be
a
lot
of
chipping
away
at
problems,
and
then
people
who
are
wanting
to
have
the
bold
ideas
of
saying
I'm
gonna
go
out
there
and
create
a
kubernetes
operating
system,
and
you
know
in
reality
it
may
work.
E
We
can't
throw
that
away.
So
maybe
we're
seeing
a
lot
of
that
in
kubernetes
like
we're
we're
holding
on
to
some
good
things.
Even
though
some
greater
things
are
gonna
come,
but
it
might
not
be
here
this
year
or
next
year
it
might
be,
you
know,
might
be
18
months
might
be
24
months,
so
we
just
got
a
really
pay
attention
to
that.
C
C
Until
some
crazy
comes
along
and
says,
hey,
there's
a
whole
world
out
there
and
no
one
believes
them
and
I
think
we
just
need
to
do
you
know
like
you
said:
we
just
need
to
do
it
when
you
just
create
it
and
make
it
happen,
and
hopefully
educate
people
in
the
process
and
just
keep
chipping
away
at
it.
Do
the
good
work
you
know.
E
And
you
know
that's
the
important
piece,
and
that
was
the
the
power
of
bell
labs.
You
probably
could
tell
I
just
read
a
book
about
Bell
Labs
I'm,
an
expert
now,
but
that
was
the
power
of
Bell
Labs.
They
didn't
just
focus
on
making
products
for
AT&T.
They
focused
on
changing
the
world,
like
literally
who
creates
a
who
creates
a
transistor.
If
you
knew
what
one
was
you
just,
don't
create
that
that's
like
some
really
crazy
stuff
and
then
but
I
try
to
break
the
parallel
back
to
what
we're
doing
here.
E
We
can't
just
create
this
perfect
kubernetes
thing,
because
really
we
don't
know
what
it
is
I
mean
we
can
be
smart
and
say
what
needs
to
be
secure
and
needs
to
be
networking
and
and
all
this
stuff.
But
you
know
what
we
don't
even
have
secrets
we
to
support.
Yet
we
don't
even
know
where
we
are
so,
let's,
let's
figure
out,
you
know,
let's
just
keep
on
going
down
the
path
and
and
what
we
will
suss
out.
These
better
patterns.
E
It
it
is
incremental
and
here's
the
crazy
part-
and
this
is
the-
and
this
is
the
real
talk
part.
You
know
what
it
is
incremental
and
and
reality
says
that
not
everybody
can
win
and
don't
take
your
failures
as
a
loss
take
a
mat
as
well.
Maybe
we
should
have
done
that
and
and
and
keep
on
moving
forward,
because
there's
a
lot
of
companies
out
there
who
got
us
to
this
point
to
this
point
in
tech
that
don't
exist
anymore,
but
if
they
didn't
do
what
they
did,
we
would
not
be
here
right
now.
Brian.
B
E
The
thing
is,
is
that
we
should
it's:
it's
not
the
glasses
half-empty.
It
is
glass
half-full.
The
way
the
the
path
to
success
is
littered
with
failure,
and
it's
not
a
bad
thing.
It's
a
good
thing,
because
it's
good
that
we
can
continue
making
those
failures,
because
we
know
they
lead
to
successes,
and
that
is
actually
a
happy
thing.
I.
B
A
So,
along
the
way
you
know
the
last
last
15
years,
a
number
of
these
sort
of
you
know
minimal
special-purpose,
operating
systems
have
have
popped
into
existence
and
kind
of
popped
out.
Right.
I
was
part
of
one
of
those
failures.
I
was
I,
was
part
of
a
company
called
our
path
back
in
2004,
and
we
were
building.
We
built
a
system,
a
packaging
system
that
would
take
your
application,
analyze
it
for
dependencies
and
construct
a
Linux
environment
design
dedicated
for
that
purpose,
and
it
had
only
the
dependencies
that
you
need.
A
No,
no,
no
libraries
that
were
unnecessary
and
it
bundled
it
up
into
a
into
an
installer
and
a
combat
installer.
For
for
the
old
folks
in
myself
included,
and
we
also
had
targets
for
Amazon
ec2,
we
missed
the
container
boat.
We
were
a
little
bit
too
early
and
I
think
that
if
we
had
been,
if
we
had
been
building
the
system
a
couple
of
years
in
the
future,
we
would
have
been
much
more
of
a
commercial
success.
I
look
at
is
I.
A
Look
at
it
as
a
personal
success,
because
I
learned
a
lot
in
that
organization,
but
I'm
just
wondering
what
other?
What
other
interactions
have
you
had
with
purpose-built
operating
systems?
You
know
maybe
core
OS,
maybe
ESXi
from
VMware
I,
think
there
were
a
couple
of
others
back
in
the
day.
Do
you
have
any
give
any
anecdotes
or
experience
with
with
those
things
I
do.
E
So
I
worked
at
a
bank
and
we
put
a
lot
of
spyware
on
every
single
instance,
just
because
we're
bank
and
heavily
regulated
so
we
had
virus
and
key
loggers
and
literally
everything
else.
It
became
a
problem
to
do
it
across
like
Braille
and
one
two
and
windows
of
multiple
flavors.
So
what
we
did
is
we
actually
took
an
experiment
into
Linux
kit
and
built
kit,
which
is
funny.
This
is
like
what
you
were
talking
about
with
our
pact
with
our
path,
but
in
dr.
lane.
E
So
what
we
ended
up
doing
was
scanning
for
dependencies
and
building
custom,
docker
images
that
only
contained
just
enough
to
run
that
application.
So
yeah,
it's
a
good
idea,
it's
a
lot
of
work
and
it
took
a
lot
of
people
power
to
keep
it
moving.
So
I,
don't
know
if
they
continued
on
with
it
or
not.