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From YouTube: A conversation with Joe Beda (The Podlets, Ep 6 Bonus)
Description
We use this open table discussion to look at a bunch of exciting topics from Joe's past, present, and future. He shares some of the invaluable lessons he has learned and offers some great tips and concepts from his vast experience building platforms over the years. We also talk about personal things like stress management, avoiding burnout and what is keeping him up at night with excitement and confusion! Large portions of the show are obviously spent discussion different aspects and questions about Kubernetes, including its relationship with etcd and Docker, its reputation as a very complex platform and Joe's thoughts for investing in the space.
For the show notes and transcript: https://thepodlets.io/episodes/006-joe-beda/
Feedback and episode suggestions:
https://twitter.com/thepodlets
https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues
info@thepodlets.io
Special guest
https://twitter.com/jbeda
Hosts
https://twitter.com/carlisia
https://twitter.com/bryanl
https://twitter.com/embano1
A
Butlet's
and
we
have
a
new
name-
this
is
our
first
episode
with
the
new
name:
don't
want
to
go
much
into
it
other
than
we
had
to
change
from
the
cubelets
to
the
palettes,
because
the
cuboid
sort
of
conflicts
with
the
existing
projects
and
we've
sorry
wish
is
better
to
change
the
show.
The
concept
hosts
everything
stays
the
same.
I
am
super
excited
today,
because
we
have
a
special
guest
to
beta
and
Bryan
Liles
Michael
gasps,
so
Joe
just
give
us
a
brief
introduction.
A
B
Sir,
so
so
I'm
Joe
Beda
I'm
I
was
one
of
the
founders
of
kubernetes
back
when
I
was
a
Google
along
with
Craig
McKee
and
Brennan
burns,
with
a
bunch
of
other
folks
joining
on
soon
after
and
you
know,
I'm
currently
principal
engineer
at
VMware,
helping
to
cover
all
things.
You
know
kubernetes
and
tongues
who
related
across
the
company
and
I
came
into
VMware
via
the
acquisition
acquisition
of
hefty.
A
B
A
B
A
You
can
always
not
answer.
There
are
so
many
interviews
of
you
out
there
on
YouTube
podcasts
and
we
are
going
to
try
to
do
something
different.
So
let
me
fire
the
first
question.
I
have
for
you
when
people
interview
you,
they
ask
you
yeah
the
usual
questions,
the
the
questions
that
are
very
useful
for
the
community,
but
I
want
to
ask
you
is
this:
what
are
people
asking
you
that
you
think
are
the
wrong
questions.
B
Well,
I
think
you
know
I,
don't
think
there's
any
bad.
Questions
like
this
I
think
that
there's
there's
a
ton
of
interest
that
sort
of
you
know
I
mean
you
know
when
we're
talking
about
technical
stuff
at
different
parts
of
the
kubernetes
stack
I.
Think
that
there's
a
lot
of
business
context
around
sort
of
like
you
know,
know
you
know
the
the
sort
of
the
container
ecosystem
and
the
companies
and
you
know
around
to
perform.
B
We
have
to
you
all
that
a
lot
of
times
you
know
I'll,
have
discussions
around
sort
of
career
and
sort
of
like
what
led
me
to
where
I'm
at
now
I
think
those
are
all
like.
You
know,
there's
there's
all
a
lot
of
really
interesting
things
to
talk
about
all
around
all
that
and
the
one
thing
that
I
think
is
doesn't
always
come
across.
Is
you
know
these
things
are
all
interrelated
right,
I
think
the
the
you
know
at
a
certain
point,
the
technology
in
the
business
in
career,
and
you
know,
work
like
that.
B
All
those
things
really
sort
of
impact
each
other
and
so
I
think
you
know
it's
a
mistake:
to
try
and
take
these
things
in
isolation.
There's
a
ton
of
lead
over
I.
Think
one
of
the
things
that
we
try
to
do
an
FTA,
oh-
and
you
know
I
think
we
did
a
good
job
is-
is
recognized
that
for
anybody
senior
enough
inside
of
any
organization,
they
really
have
to
be
able
to
play
all
roles
right.
Everything
at
a
certain
point.
C
B
Brian,
you
know
my
resume
better
than
I
do
apparently
so
I
started
my
career
at
Microsoft
and
you
know:
cut
my
teeth:
working
on
internet
explorer
and
doing
client
side
stuff.
There
I
then
went
to
Google
I
in
the
office
up
here
in
Seattle.
It
was
actually
in
Kirkland
this
little
hole-in-the-wall
temporary
office
pre.
We
work
type
of
thing
and
I
think
hey
I
want
to
do
some
server-side
stuff
worked
on
Google
Talk
worked
on
ads,
it's
worked
on
cloud
started,
kubernetes
was
a
little
burned
out,
took
some
time
off.
B
Goofed
off
did
a
this
entrepreneur-in-residence
thing
for
for
VC
and
then
started
hefty
fo
and
then
and
then
sold
the
VMware.
So
what
do
I
mean
the
the
when
you're
in
a
big
company,
especially
when
you're
more
junior,
it's
easy
to
get
caught
up
and
playing
the
game
inside
of
that
company
there's
and
when
I
say
the
game?
What
I
mean
is
that
there
are
measures
of
success
within
big
companies
and
there
are
ways
to
advance,
see
approval
to
see,
rewards
they're,
all
very
specific
to
that
company
and
I.
B
The
biggest
difference,
I
think
between
large
company
and
small
company
is
really
and
like
you
know,
you
know,
I'll
throw
out
some
science
analogies
here.
I
think
oftentimes
organizations
are
a
little
bit
like
the
ideal
gas
law.
So
okay,
maybe
going
past
y'all.
But
this
is
an
a
PV
equals
NRT,
so
pressure
times,
volume
equals
a
number
of
molecules
times,
temperature
and
then
ER
is
a
constant.
B
So
the
idea
here
is
that
this
is
an
equation
where,
as
do
you,
add
more
molecules
to
a
to
a
sort
of
constrained
space
that
will
actually
change
the
temperature
and
the
pressure
and
these
things
all
rise,
and
so
what
happens
is
inside
of
a
large
company.
You
end
up
with
so
many
people
within
a
constrained
space
in
terms
of
the
product
space
and
when
you
add
more
people
to
the
organization
or
when
you're
looking
to
get
ahead,
it
feels
very
zero-sum.
It
very
much
feels
like
hey
for
me
to
advance.
B
Somebody
else
has
to
lose
and
that's
not
how
the
real
world
works,
but
oftentimes.
That's
how
it
feels
inside
of
a
big
company
is
that
if
it
feels
to
zero
something
like
that,
the
liberating
thing
for
being
at
a
start-up
and
I
think
why
so
many
people
get
a
dicket
to
working
at
startups.
Is
that
startups
are
fundamentally
not
zero-sum?
B
Everybody
succeeds
and
fails
together
when
a
new
person
shows
up
your
your
thought
process
is
natural.
Like
awesome,
we
got
more
cylinders
in
the
engine,
we're
going
to
go
faster,
which
is
not
always
the
case
inside
of
a
big
company,
and
so
for
me
that
you
know
now
I
think,
as
you
get
senior
enough
all
of
a
sudden.
These
things
changes
because
you're,
not
you,
know,
you're,
not
just
operating
within
the
confines
of
that
company
you're,
actually
again
playing
a
role
in
the
business
you're.
B
Unbounded
possibilities
in
front
of
us
inside
of
this
world,
make
sure
that
we
actually
focus
our
energy
on
serving
customers
and
in
doing
so
out-compete
others
in
the
market
and
and
it's
not
a
zero-sum
game.
It's
not
something
where,
as
we
bring
more
folks
on
that
that
we
feel
like
we're
competing
with
them.
So
that's
a
little
rambling
of
an
answer.
I
don't
know
if
that
makes
together
for
you
Brian,
no.
D
D
So
in
the
communities
community,
your
rock
star
at
VMware
you're,
already
a
rock
star
being
on
stage
at
vmworld
shaking
hands
with
pet
I,
mean
there's
so
many
people,
so
many
emails,
so
many
slacks,
whatever
that
you
get
every
day
but
still
I
feel
you
you
you.
You
are
able
to
keep
the
balance,
stay
ground
it
and
always
have
a
chat
like
even
though
sometimes
I
don't
want
to
approach
you,
but
sometimes
I
do
and
have
some
crazy
questions.
Maybe,
but
still
you
are
not
pushing
people
away.
D
B
B
I
have
to
be
very
thoughtful
about
prioritizing
what
I'm
doing
and
so
there's
a
lot
of
techniques
that
you
can
bring
to
bear
they're
being
explicit
about
what
your
goals
are
and
what
your
priorities
are.
Writing
those
things
down
whether
it's
an
okay
hour
process
or
whether
it's
just
like
you
know,
here's
the
my
top
three
things
that
I'm
focusing
on
making
sure
that
those
things
are
perfect
purposefully.
You
know
meaningful
to
you
right,
so
understanding
the
difference
between
urgent
and
important,
which
you
know
you.
A
B
Things
but
like
it's,
this
idea
of
like
there
are
things
that
feel
like
they
have
to
get
done
right
now,
and
then
there
are
things
that
are
long-term
important
and
if
you're
not
thoughtful
about
how
you
do
things,
you
spend
all
your
time
doing
the
urgent
things,
but
you
never
get
to
the
stuff.
That's
actually
long-term
important
and
that's
a
really
easy
trap
to
get
yourself
into
you
know.
Finding
ways
to
delegate
to
focus
is
really
really
helpful
here
in
terms
of
empowering
others.
Trusting
them
it's
hard
to.
B
Let
go
sometimes,
but
I
think
you
know
being
able
to
to
you
know,
set
the
stage
for
other
people
to
be
successful,
is
really
empowering,
but
then
just
recognizing
it's
not
all
gonna
get
done,
and
that's
okay
and
you
can't
hold
yourself
to
expect
that
now
with
respect
to
burnout.
For
me,
the
biggest
driver
for
burnout
in
my
career
has
been
when
I
fell,
personal
responsibility
over
something,
but
I
have
been
had
the
tools
or
the
authority
or
the
ability
impacted.
B
B
Is
that
like
I
started
a
Google
compute
engine
at
Google,
which
is
arguably
the
sort
of
you
know?
You
know
the
the
sort
of
foundational
cloud
service
for
GCP
but
as
it
grew
as
it
became
more
important
to
Google,
as
it
got
reorg
more
or
more
of
the
leadership
and
responsibilities
and
decision-making
I'm
up
here
in
Seattle,
move
down
to
Mountain
View.
A
lot
of
that
stuff
was
folks
that
sort
of
had
been
in
the
dog
market,
but
I
thank
Google
for
10
or
15
years
coming
in
and
they're
like.
B
Okay,
that's
cute,
we
got
it
from
here
right,
and
that
was
a
case
where
it
was
my
thing:
I
felt
a
lot
of
ownership
over
it,
but
it
was
clear
after
a
certain
amount
of
time
hey.
You
know
what
I
just
work
here.
This
is,
you
know
I'm
just
doing
my
job
and
I
do
what
I
do
but
really
sees
other
folks
that
are
that
are
driving
the
bust
and
that's
a
painful
transition
to
actually
go
from
that
feeling
of
ownership
to
I.
A
This
is
a
big
part
for
me,
I
guess,
but
it
definitely
is
a
place.
That's
moving
fast!
It's
not
crazy!
It's
very
it's
reasonable
because
everybody
pretty
much
everyone
that
was
a
girl
now,
but
there
is
so
much
to
do,
and
people
are
glad
when
you
take
ownership
of
things,
and
that
really
for
me,
is
a
big
source
of
work.
Satisfaction,
yeah,.
B
C
All
right
so
now
I
want
to
ask
your
technical
question
all
right,
not
a
really
hard
one.
Just
more
of
how
you
think
about
this,
so
kubernetes
is
five
and
almost
five
and
a
half
years
old
and
one
of
the
key
components
of
communities
its
STP
now
know
what
we
know
now
and
2019
would
kubernetes
have
used
@cd
as
its
key
store.
Or
would
you
gone
out
of
direction?
I.
B
The
truth
of
the
matter
is,
is
that
we
didn't
give
that
decision
as
much
thought.
If
you
probably
should
have
early
on,
we
saw
it.
We
saw
that
it
was
relatively
easy
to
stand
up
and
get
going
with,
and
you
know
at
least
on
paper.
It
had
the
qualities
that
we
were
looking
for,
and
so
we
started
building
with
it
and
then
just
sort
of
branding
with
you
know
something
like
zookeeper
was
also
so
we
could
have
taken
the
operational
overhead
at
the
time
of
scene.
B
Keeper
was
very
different
than
that
CD
I
think
we
could
have
gone
in
the
direction
of
them.
This
is
why
what
the
court
does
for
a
lot
of
their
tools
where
they
actually
build
the
data
story
into
the
tool
in
a
native
way,
I
think
that
can
lead
in
some
ways
to
a
simple,
simpler,
getting
started
experience
because
there's
just
one
thing
to
boot
up,
but
also
you
know
it's
it's
it's
more
monolithic
from
a
sort
of
backup
maintenance,
recovery,
type
of
type
of
thing.
B
The
one
thing
that
I
think
we
we
probably
should
have
done
there
you
know
in
retrospect-
is
to
try
and
create
a
little
bit
more
of
an
arm's
length
relationship
in
kubernetes,
a
net
CD
in
terms
of
having
some
clean
and
air
interfaces,
some
more
contractors
and
stuff
so
that
we
could
have
actually
swapped
something
else
out,
there's
folks
that
are
doing
it.
So
it's
not
an
impossible,
but
it's
definitely
not
something.
C
B
Think,
ok,
another
thing
we
might
want
to
change.
It's
like
I
think
it
might
have
been
good
to
be
more
explicit
about
being
able
to
actually
shard
things
out
right
so
that
you
could
have
a
multiple
data
stores
for
multiple
resources
and
actually
find
a
way
to
sort
of
horizontally
scale.
Now,
when
we
do
that
with
events,
because
we
were
writing
events
and
at
CD
and
that's
just
a
totally
different,
you
know
stream
of
data,
but
everything
else
right
now,
I
think
you
know
there's
room
to
do
this
into
the
future.
B
A
B
C
B
A
Now
I
would
love
to
philosophy
a
little
bit
or
maybe
a
lot
about
kubernetes
and
in
the
spirit
of
thinking
of
like
different
questions,
to
ask
so
I
had
a
bunch
of
questions
and
then
I
was
thinking.
How
could
I
ask
this
question
in
a
different
way,
maybe
that
this
is
not
the
right
quote-unquote
question.
So
here
is
the
way
I
came
up
with
this
question,
so
a
lot
of
people,
so
we
so
divided
out
there.
You
know
one
camp
allows
kubernetes
another
camp.
You
know
it's
so
hard,
so
complicated
so
complex.
A
Why
you
even
bother
with
this
I,
don't
understand
why
people
are
using
this,
and
so
basically
there
is
that
sentiments.
The
carbonate
is
complicated
and
I.
Don't
think
anybody
would
refute.
That
now
is
that
even
the
right
way
to
talk
about
kubernetes
is
it?
Is
it
even
not
supposed
to
be
complicated,
I
mean
what
kind
of
a
is
it
that
we
are
thinking
it
should
just
work.
It
should
be
just
be
super
simple:
is
it
true
that
it
should
be
a
super,
simple
tool,
so
use.
B
I
mean
it's
all:
that's
a
loaded
question
Curly's
yeah
I
mean
I
mean.
Let
me
just
first
say
that
like
number
one,
if
people
are
complaining,
I
mean
this
I'm,
stealing
this
from
from
Tim
Hawk
and
who
I
think
you
know.
This
is
the
way
he
sort
of
takes
some
of
these
things
in
stride.
You
know
if
people
are
complaining
that
you're
relevant
right
if
nobody's
complaining,
then
nobody
cares
about
what
you're
doing
and
so
I
think
that
you
know
it's
a
good
thing
that
folks
are
taking
a
critical
look
at
Nettie's.
B
That
means
that
they're
taking
a
look
at
it
right-
and
you
know
you
know
we're
five
years
in
kubernetes-
is
on
an
upswing.
That's
not
gonna!
Necessarily
last
forever
I,
you
know,
I
think
we
have
work
to
do
to
continually
earn
kubernetes
place.
You
know
in
the
technology
stack
over
the
time
now.
That
being
said,
kubernetes
is
a
super
super
flexible
tool.
It
can
do
so
many
things
in
so
many
different
situations.
It's
used
from
everything
from
you
know,
in
retail
stores,
across
tens
of
thousands
of
stores.
You
know
sort
of
edgy
type
of
solutions.
B
People
are
looking
at
it
for
telco,
you
know
in
5g,
people
are
looking
at
it
to
like
even
running
inside
cars,
which
is
like
scares
me
right
and
then
all
the
way
up
to
like
folks
that,
like
it's
CERN
using
it
to
do,
data
analytics
for
for
hiring
me
physics
right.
So
the
the
the
the
technology
that
I
look
at
that's
probably
most
comparable
to
that
is
something
like
Linux.
Linux
is
actually
scalable
from
everything
from
a
phone
all
the
way
up
to
an
IBM,
mainframe
and
and
I
think
that,
but
it's
not
easy
right.
B
I
mean
like
like
to
be
able
to
adapt
it
across
all
that
things.
You
have
to
sort
of
essentially
download
the
kernel
type
make
config
and
then
answer
5,000
questions
right
for
those
who
haven't
done,
that
it's
not
an
easy
thing
to
do,
and
so
I
think
that
a
lot
of
times
you
know
people
might
be
looking
at
kubernetes
at
the
wrong
level
to
be
able
to
say
this
should
be
simple.
Nobody
looks
at
the
Linux
kernel
that
you
get
from
sort
of
get
cloning
Linus's
for
work
and
compiling
it
and
saying
yeah.
B
This
is
too
hard,
of
course,
it's
hard.
It's
the
Linux
kernel.
You
expect
that
you're
gonna
have
a
curated
experience.
If
you
want
something
easy
right,
whether
it
be
an
Android
phone
or
you
know
a
you
know
boom
or
what
happen
so
I
think
to
some
degree
we're
still
in
the
early
days
where
people
are
dealing
with
it,
perhaps
a
to
raw
level
versus
actually
dealing
with
it
in
a
more
opinionated
way.
B
Now,
I
think
the
fascinating
thing
for
kubernetes
is
that
it
provides
a
lot
of
the
extension
points
and
patterns
so
that
we
we
don't
know
exactly
what
those
higher-level
easier
to
use.
Abstractions
are
going
to
look
like,
but
we
know
at
least
we're
pretty
confident
that
we
have
the
right
tools
in
the
right
sort
of
environment
to
be
able
to
experiment
our
way
there
and
so
I
think
we're
we're
we're
we're
not
there
yet,
but
we're
set
up
for
success.
So
that's
the
purpose
thing.
B
Just
like
you'll,
see
folks
saying,
like
you
know,
I
just
SSH
tin
and
actually
ran
some
stuff
and
it
works.
Fine
I
don't
need
all
this
kubernetes
stuff.
It's
like
you
know.
If
that
works.
For
you
that's
great,
you
know
it's
like
kubernetes
doesn't
have
to
solve
every
problem
for
every
person
and
then
the
next
thing
is
that
I
think
that
there's
a
lot
of
people
who've
been
solving
these
problems
again
and
again
and
again
and
again,
but
they've
been
solving
them
in
their
own
way,
and
so
it's
not
uncommon.
B
Now,
with
that
all
set,
we
got
a
ton
of
work
to
do
it's
not
like
we're
done
here
and
I'm,
not
gonna,
actually
sit
here
and
say:
kubernetes
is
easy
or
that
every
you
know,
complex
thing
is
absolutely
necessary
and
that
we
can't
find
ways
to
simplify
it.
We
clearly
can't
but
I
just
think
that
you
know
that
when
folks
say,
hey,
I
just
want
this
to
be
easy.
I
think
they're
being
a
little
bit
too
naive,
because
it's
a
very
difficult
problem
domain.
So.
C
I'd
like
to
add
on
to
that
I
think
about
this
log
as
well
and
and
something
that
Joe
said
to
me
few
years
back
where
kubernetes
is
the
platform
for
creating
platforms,
it
is
very
applicable
here
where
we
are
looking
at
as
an
industry
we
need
to
stop.
Looking
at
kubernetes
is
some
kind
of
estimation.
Your
destination
is
really
running.
Your
applications
that
you
know
give
you
pleasure
or
make
your
business
money
and
kubernetes
is
a
tool
to
enable
us
to
do
to
think
about
our
applications
more
rather
than
the
underlying
ecosystem.
C
We
don't
think
about
servers.
You
want
me
to
think
about,
sir,
about
storage
and
networking,
even
things
like
brick
like
finding
things
in
your
cluster,
you
don't
think
about
that.
Kubernetes
gives
it
to
you.
So
if
we
start
thinking
about
kubernetes
as
a
way
to
enable
us
to
do
better
things,
we
can
go
back
to
what
joe
said
if
it
on
linux,
back
whatever
I
started
used
to
Linux
in
the
mid-90s,
guess
what
you
know
we
compiled
it,
make
config
make
me
good
stuff.
What
was
hard?
It
was
hard.
C
It
was
slow,
but
now
think
about
this.
In
my
office,
I
have
three
different
Linux
distributions
running
and
you
know
what
I
don't
think
about
it
anymore,
I,
don't
think
about
configuring,
X
I,
don't
think
about
anything
and
one
thing
that
kubernetes
is
gonna
grow.
Is
this
going
we're
gonna
figure
out
these
problems
and
it's
gonna
allow
us
to
think
of
these
other
crazy
things
which
is
going
to
push
industry
further
and
think?
C
B
B
Sorry,
the
dorks
in
Berkeley
I
mean
at
one
point
people
cared
about
some
of
the
by
that
they
were
running
on
their
computers.
Right
like
that
was
something
that
you
stressed
out
about.
I
mean
like
back
in
the
bad
old
days
when
I
was
like
doing
like
DOS
game
mean
and
you're
like,
oh
well.
This
BIOS
is
incompatible
with
the
tightly
ir
cues
and
all
that,
that's
all,
just
it's
just.
A
A
Every
single
job
I've
ever
had
the
deployment
system
is
completely
different,
completely
different,
set
of
tooling
in
completely
different
process,
just
being
able
to
walk
out
from
one
job
to
another
job
and
be
able
to
use
the
same
platform
for
deployment.
It
must
be
amazing,
and
only
free
on
the
flip
side
being
able
to
hire
people
that
will
join
your
organization
already
know
me
how
your
deployment
works.
That
has
value
in
itself.
It's
a
huge
value
that
I,
don't
think
people
talk
about
enough
well,.
B
Honestly,
this
is
one
of
the
motivations
for
creating
kubernetes
is
that
you
know.
I
looked
around
Google
early
on
and
I
and
Google
is
really
good
at
importing
open
source
like
circa
2000
right.
This
is
like
hey,
you
want
to
lose
lid
PNG
or
you
want
to
use
this
library
or
whatever.
That
was
the
type
of
open
source
that
Google
is
really
really
good
at
using.
B
So
this
is
one
of
the
reasons
honestly
why
we
ended
up
doing
something
like
GCE
is
to
actually
have
a
platform
that
was
actually
more
familiar
from
like
acquisitions.
It's
one
of
the
reasons
we
did
it,
but
then
also
introducing
Cooper
days.
It's
not
bored.
It's
not.
You
know
it's.
It's
a
cousin
of
Borg
inside
of
Google
and
for
those
who
don't
know
Borg
is
the
container
system
that's
sort
of
been
in
production
at
Google,
for
probably
like
15
years
now
and
sort
of
the
sort
of
you
know
spiritual.
B
D
I
got
a
similar
question
because
seems
to
be
like
you're,
a
platformer
butter.
You've
worked
on
GCE,
given
Eddie's,
obviously
were
what
were
these
things
door?
If
you
would
be
talking
to
another
platform,
architect
or
builder?
What
would
be
something
that
you
would
recommend
and
based
on
your
experiences
like
what
is
a
key
ingredient
technically
speaking
of
a
platform
that
you
should
be
building
today
or
kind
of
the
main
thing,
or
the
lesson
learned
that
you.
B
B
I
mean
so
so
you
know
just
some
thoughts
there
I
think
in
my
mind,
the
mark
of
a
good
platform
it
was
in
people
is
when
people
can
use
it
to
do
things
that
you
hadn't,
imagined
right.
The
goal
here
is
that
you
want
a
platform
to
be
a
force
multiplier.
You
want
it
to
enable
people
to
do
amazing
things,
and
you
know
you
compare
like
again
like
the
Linux
kernel,
even
something
as
simple
as
like
you
know
our
electrical
grid
right,
the
folks
who
sort
of
established
those
standards.
B
B
Sorry
this
and
for
me,
I,
think
you
know
that's
a
trap
right,
because
it's
easy
to
get
early
users
based
on
a
very
curated
experience,
it's
hard
to
keep
the
post
users
as
they
actually
start
using
the
thing
in
anger,
as
they
start
interfacing
with
the
real
world,
as
they
deal
with
things
that
you
didn't
think
of
as
a
platform,
so
I'm
always
thinking
about.
How
can
everything
that
you
put
in
the
platform
be
used
in
multiple
ways?
B
How
can
you
actually
make
these
things
be
composable
building
blocks,
because
then
that
gives
you
the
opportunity
for
folks
to
actually
compose
them
in
ways
that
you
didn't
imagine
starting
out
so
I
think
that's
some
of
it
I.
You
know
I
sort
of
my
my
career
at
Microsoft,
working
on
Internet
Explorer
and
the
fascinating
thing
about
Microsoft
is
that
through
and
through
and
through
and
through
Microsoft,
as
a
platform
company
it.
B
You
know
it
started
with
jaws
and
Windows
and
Office,
but
even
though
office
is
viewed
as
a
platform
inside
of
Microsoft,
they
fundamentally
understand
to
their
understanding
in
their
bones
the
benefit
of
actually
starting
that
sort
of
platform
flywheel,
and
so
it
was
really
interesting
to
actually
be.
You
know
enduring
this
for
the
first
browser
Wars
of
ie
versus
Netscape
when
I
started
my
career
to
actually
see
the
fact
that
Microsoft
always
saw
Internet
Explorer
as
a
platform,
whereas
I
think
Netscape,
you
know,
didn't
really
get
it
in
the
same
way
right.
B
They
didn't
understand
the
potential
I
think
in
the
way
that
Microsoft
it
and
so
for
me,
I
mean
just
being
you
know
like
where
you
start
your
career
oftentimes
actually
set
your
patterns
in
terms
of
how
you
look
at
things
over
time
and
so
I
think
a
lot
of
you
know
this
platform.
Thinking
comes
from
just
sort
of
you
know:
imprinting
when
I
was
like
a
baby,
developer,
I
think
I
don't
know,
and
she
said
it
takes
a
lot
of
time.
To
really
sort
of
you
know
really
internalize
that.
C
The
lesson
here
is
this
is
a
good
one.
Is
that
when
we're
building
things
that
are
we
bigger
than
us,
don't
think
of
your
product
is
the
is
the
end
goal,
think
of
it
as
an
enabler
and
when
it's
an
enabler,
that's
where
you
get
that
X
multiplier,
and
then
that's
where
you
know
you
get
all
the
residuals
in
Microsoft.
Actually,
it's
a
great
example
of
it.
My
gosh
just
think
what
think
of
what
Microsoft
has
been
able
to
do
with
the
power
of
office
yeah.
B
And
yeah
I
look:
it
I
look
at
something
like
VB
right
in
the
Microsoft
world
and
we
still
don't
have.
We
could
still
don't
have
VB
for
the
cloud
era.
We
still
haven't
created
that
I
think
there's
still
opportunity
there
to
actually
strike
vbe
back
in
the
day
for
those
who
weren't
there
struck
this
amazing
balance
of
being
easy
to
get
started
with,
but
also
something
that
could
actually
grow
with
you
over
time,
because
it
had
all
these
extension
mechanisms
where
you
could
actually
the
marketplace
of
controls
that
you
could.
B
C
B
I
don't
so
like
still,
you
know,
I'll
talk
to
me
sees
cuz
I
did
a
start-up
in
the
EOIR
thing
and
you
know
I'll
have
them
ask
me
things
like
hey:
where
should
we
invest
in
the
kubernetes
space?
And
my
answer
is
like
you
know,
you
know
using
the
sort
of
BES
analogy
like
you,
gotta
go
where
the
puck
is
going,
invest
in
the
things
that
kubernetes
enables.
What
are
the
things
that
people
can
do
now
that
they
couldn't
do
pre
kubernetes?
B
D
B
Here's
another
thing:
another
piece
of
career
advice
and
like
successful
people
are
good
storytellers.
You
can
have
the
most
beautiful
technology.
If
you
can't
tell
the
human
story
about
it
about
what
it
does
for
folks,
then
nobody
will
care,
and
so
I
spend
a
lot
of
the
time
on
Twitter
and
probably
too
much
planning.
If
you
ask
my
family,
but
that
medium
of
being
able
to
actually
distill
your
thoughts
down
into
something
that
is
is
is,
is
you
know,
tweetable,
you
know
quotable
really
sort
of
potent.
B
That
is
a
skill,
that's
worth
developing
and
the
skill
it's
worth
Valley,
because
there's
things
that
are
like
rolling
around
in
my
head
and
I
still
haven't
found
a
way
to
get
him
into
a
tweet
and
so
like
at
some
point:
I'll
figure
it
out
and
it'll
be
a
thing,
but
it
just.
It
takes
a
lot
of
time
to
sort
of
build
that
scale
to
be
able
to
sort
of
refine
like
that.
I.
A
Wanna
say
an
anecdote
of
myself:
I
interviewed
a
small,
tiny
startup,
maybe
less
than
ten
people
at
the
time
in
Cambridge
back
when
I
lived
up
there
and
the
guy
was
like
borderline
wanting
to
hire
me
and
no
and
I
say
him
an
email
to
try
to
influence
his
decision
and
he
was
a
long,
ass
email
and
they
said
no
thank
you
and
anyway
we
had
a
good
rapport.
So
I
said.
Well,
you
know
anything.
You
can
tell
me
about
your
decision,
then
he
said
he
said
something
along.
A
A
C
I
did
I
want
to
ask
another
question
and
because
these
are
random
questions
for
Jo,
so
Jo
it
is
the
week
before
cubic
on
North,
America,
2019
and
today
is
actually
an
interesting
day.
A
couple
of
neat
things
happen.
Today
we
had
docker
well,
it
was
kind
of
neat
dr.
split
somewhat
and
it's
sold
part
of
it
and
now
they're
gonna
be
a
tools
company,
that's
kind
of
neat
we're.
C
B
You
know
I
think
it's
it's
it's
easy
to
sort
of
armchair
quarterback
these
things
it's
hard
to
live
that
story,
and
so
you
know,
oh
I,
think
that
it's
it's
it's
it's
it's
fun
to
play
that
what-if
game
I
mean
it's,
but
you
know
I
think
it
does
show
that,
like
this
stuff
is
hard
you
can
sort
of.
You
know,
have
everything
in
your
grasp
and
then
just
sort
of
have
it
all
sort
of
slip
away.
I
think
you
know
in
this
world
and
I
think
that's
that's
not
anybody's
fault.
B
It's
just
sort
of
like
there's
different
strategies,
different
approaches
and
how
this
plays
out
over
time
on
the
laptop
thing
so
I
mean
I.
Think
my
current
laptop
it
has
16
gigs
of
ram
and
one
of
the
things
that
we're
seeing
is
that
as
applications
as
we
move
towards
a
moniker
services,
world
right,
I
think
you
know
and
I
gave
a
talk
about
this,
probably
three
or
four
years
ago.
B
B
When
you
see
companies
that
are
sort
of
micro
services
base
like
let's
take
like
an
uber
or
lyft,
or
an
Airbnb
as
I'd,
aber
safai,
the
set
of
products
that
they're
offering
you
know,
they're
not
running
completely
independent
stacks.
You
know
that
there's
places
where
these
things
connect
to
you
know
behind
the
scenes
in
a
monitor
services
world.
What
does
that
mean
for
developers?
What
it
means
is
that
you
can
no
longer
fit
an
entire
company's
worth
of
infrastructure
on
your
laptop
anymore,
and
so
within
a
certain
constraint.
B
B
I
can
bring
that
up
on
my
laptop,
but
it
will
have
dependencies
that
I
either
have
to
actually
call
into
the
prod
dependencies
call
onto
specialized
staging
or
mock
those
things
out,
so
that
I
can
actually
run
this
thing
locally
and
develop
it
with
64
Giga
RAM
I
can
run
more
in
my
laptop,
so
there's
a
little
bit
of
kick
in
that
can
down
the
road
in
terms
of
like
ok,
there's
this
race
between
you
know
more
micro
service,
II
versus
how
much
I
can
port.
On
my
laptop.
B
B
I
could
Google
a
lot
of
folks.
Even
developers
can
actually
be
super
super
productive
with
something
relatively
thin
like
a
Chromebook,
because
there's
so
many
tools
there
that
that
really
are
targeted
at
doing
all
that
stuff.
You
know
remotely
in
Google
Google's
production
data,
centers
and
such
so
that's
I
think
the
interesting
implication
from
a
developer
point
of
view
if
it's
64
gigabytes
around.
So
what
are
you
gonna?
Do
Brian
you're
gonna
get
the
64
gig
mat
you're
gonna.
Do
it.
C
A
B
A
Frequently
have
to
restart
my
computer
because
of
memory
issues,
I,
don't
know,
I
don't
want
to
know
which
app
is
taking
up
memory.
I
have
a
tool
that
I
can
look
up,
just
shut
it
down
flush.
The
memory
I
do
have
a
question
related
to
darker,
so
kubernetes
I,
don't
know
if
it's
right
to
say
the
kubernetes
is
so
reliant
on
darker,
because
I
know
it
works
with
other
container
technologies
as
well,
but
it's
in
the
worst
case
scenario.
A
A
B
Early
on,
when
we
were
doing
kubernetes-
and
you
know
and
you're
in
this
sort
of
you
know,
relationship
with
a
company
like
docker,
you
know,
I
looked
at,
you
know
what
docker
was
doing
and
you're
like
okay.
Where
is
the
real
value
here
over
time
and
in
my
mind,
like
I,
thought
that
the
interface
with
developers
that
sort
of
distributed
kernel
that
API
surface
area
kubernetes?
That
was
really
the
thing
and
that
a
lot
of
the
doctor
stuff
was
was
you
know,
overtime
gonna
fade
to
the
background.
B
I
think
we've
seen
that
happen,
because
when
we
talk
about
production
systems,
we
definitely,
you
know,
have
moved
past
doctor
and
we
have
the
CRI.
We
have
container
D,
which
was
essentially
you
know,
built
by
decocker,
donated
to
the
CN
CF,
as
it's
made
its
way
towards
graduation
I
think
it's
graduated,
now
the
sort
of
governance
sort
of
ties
to
doc
or
have
been
severed
at
this
point,
and
so
you
know
in
production
systems
for
kubernetes
we've
moved
past.
B
That
I
still
think
that
there's
there's
developer
experience
is
oftentimes
reliant
on
docker
and
things
like
dr.
Voss
I
think
we're
moving
past.
That
also
I
think
that
if
docker
were
to
disappear
off
the
base
layer,
they
wouldn't
be
there'd,
be
some
adjustment,
but
I
think
we
have
the
right
tool
kits
and
the
right
systems
to
be
able
to
do
that,
and
some
of
that
is
open
source
by
doctors,
part
of
the
movie
project,
so
the
the
whole
docker
file
evaluation
flow
is
actually
in.
B
This
thing
called
build
kit
that
you
can
actually
use
in
different
contexts
outside
of
the
docker
game.
So
I
think
there's
a
there's
a
lot
of
the
building,
but
the
thing
that
I
think
is
the
most
influential
thing
that
actually
I
think
will
stand.
The
test
of
time
is
the
docker
container
image
format
that
artifact
that
you
upload
that
you
download
the
registry
api's.
Now
those
things
have
been
modified
and
are
moving
forward
slowly
under
the
OCI.
B
The
open
container
initiative
project,
which
is
kind
of
a
little
bit
of
a
sister
foundation
initiative
thing
to
the
C&C
f
but
I,
think
that's
the
influence
over
time
and
then
related
to
that
I
think
you
know
the
world
should
be
a
little
bit
worried
about
docker
hub
and
what
that
means
for
the
soccer
club
over
time,
because
that
is
not
a
cheap
service
to
run.
It's
done
is
a
sort
of
public
good,
similar
to
sort
of
github.
If
the
commercial
aspects
of
that
are
not
healthy,
then
I
think
it
might
be
disruptive.
B
B
Mean
harbor,
is
you
know
a
thing,
but
somebody's
got
to
run
and
somebody's
gonna
get
a
band
with
them.
Well,
I.
Thank
you
to
doctor
for
paying
those
bandwidth
bills
because
it's
actually
been
good
for
not
just
doctor,
but
for
our
entire
sort
of
you
know
ecosystem
to
be
able
to
do
that.
I,
don't
know
what
that
looks
like
moving
forward.
I
think
it's
gonna
be
I
mean
maybe
github
up
with
github
artifacts
is
gonna
pick
up.
The
slack
gonna
have
to
see
good.
D
I
have
one
last
question
from
my
end,
totally
different
topic
not
occur
at
all.
Oh
maybe
depends
on
your
answers,
so
the
question
is
like
you're
very
technical
person.
What
is
the
technology
or
the
stuff
that
your
brain
is
currently
spinning
on?
If
you
can
disclose
it's
like
obviously,
no
secrets
but
like
what?
What
keeps
you
awake
at
night
when
you,
when
your
brain.
A
B
B
B
90S
right
man,
I,
was
never
super
into
that
I.
Don't
think.
I
was
smart
enough.
It's
crazy
stuff,
I,
actually
read
the
most
I
know
you
did
I
know
you
did.
That
was
it
though.
Okay,
so
just
for
those
not
familiar.
The
demo
scene
was
essentially
like
you,
wrote
essentially
x86
assembly
code
to
do
something
cool
on
screen
and
it
was
all
generated
to
that.
The
amount
of
code
was
vanishingly
small,
and
so
it
was
this
for
a
puzzle.
Slash
hard
splash,
like
technical
tour
de
force
kind
of
thing.
We.
B
So
I
think
a
lot
of
that
stuff
ends
up
being
fun.
You
know
stuff,
that's
related
to
our
world
I.
Think
about
how
do
we
move
up
the
stack
and
I
think
a
lot
of
folks
are
focused
on
the
developer
experience.
How
do
we
make
that
easier,
I
think
one
of
the
things
through
the
lens
of
VMware
entendu
is
looking
at.
How
does
this
stuff
start
to
interface
with
organizational
mechanics?
How
does
the
typical
enterprise
work?
B
How
do
we
actually
make
sure
that
we
can
start
delivering
a
toolset
that
works
with
that
organization
versus
working
against
the
organization
and
and
that
I
think
is
an
interesting
area
where
you
know
it's
it's
it's
hard
because
it
involves
people
like
back
in
people
like
programmers.
They
love
it
because
they
don't
have
to
deal
with
those
pesky
people
right.
They
get
to
define
their
interfaces
and
their
interfaces
are
pure
and
logical.
B
There's
a
reviews,
err
experience
at
the
consumer
level,
there's
developer
experience
and
there's
a
whole
sort
of
class
of
things,
which
is
maybe
sort
of
like
organizational
experience.
How
do
you
interface
with
the
organization
versus
just
interface
interfacing,
with
individuals
in
either
the
developer
or
the
or
they
end
user?
I,
don't
know
it's
like.
As
an
industry,
we
actually
have
our
heads
wrapped
around
that
sort
of
organization.