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From YouTube: Senate Judiciary Meeting, March 8, 2021
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A
B
B
C
D
Thank
you,
madam
chair.
With
your
permission,
I
would
like
to
ask
a
member
of
the
cheyenne
police
department
to
come
up
here.
I
think
he'll
be
able
to
answer
some
of
the
questions
that
you
have
about
why
this
bill
is
needed.
So
I
thought
maybe
it
might
expedite
the
discussion
a
little
bit
more.
D
Certainly
senator
please
come
forward.
You
want
to
walk
us
through
the
bill.
Yes,
so
senators
before
you,
you
have
senate
file
98,
which
deals
with
bail
source
hearings,
and
I
just
want
to
keep
you
on
a
very
high
level
of
why
this
bill
came.
Imagine
you
have
two
individuals
who
rob
a
gas
station
or
a
bank
and
the
police
are
able
to
apprehend
one
of
them.
D
The
person
who
doesn't
have
the
cash
on
hand,
but
the
other
person
got
away
with
lots
of
money,
and
so
the
person
who's
arrested,
you
know,
is
pending
legal
charges
in
a
court
and
when
it
comes
to
setting
their
bail,
a
large
amount
of
cash
shows
up
to
allow
that
individual
to
post
bail
and
get
out,
and
the
judge
and
the
police
and
prosecutor
think
I
wonder
where
this
cash
came
from.
Did
it
come
from
the
robbery?
Where
did
this
money
come
from?
D
I
think
most
of
us
in
our
core
would
say
if
it
came
from
the
robbery,
that's
not
fair,
and
so
that's
what
this
bill
is
trying
to
get
after.
We
see
this
in
other
states
and
I'll.
Let
this
is
officer.
Excuse
me
detective
casey
patterson,
with
cheyenne
police
department.
He
reached
out
to
me
during
the
interim
and
explained
how
this
situation
is
growing
in
numbers
in
our
community
and
at
the
end
of
the
day,
we
just
don't
think
it's
right
so
to
walk
you
through
the
bill.
D
Admitting
a
defendant
to
bail
the
circuit
court
or
district
court
may
require
the
defendant
to
provide
documentation
or
other
evidence
of
the
source
of
cash
bonds
or
securities
that
would
be
used
for
bail
and
so
moving
on.
It
would
just
amend
on
page
two
some
existing
statutes
about
the
ability
of
the
wyoming
supreme
court
to
promulgate
rules
until
you'll
see
that
inclusion
of
the
new
section
and
then
the
other
parts
of
the
bill
are
pretty
conforming
section.
D
Three
would
say
that
this
act
shall
apply
to
all
persons
charged
with
criminal
offences
on
or
after
the
effective
date,
and
the
effective
date
would
be
july
1st.
So,
to
give
you
a
little
bit
more
background,
though,
about
some
of
the
concerns
that
I've
certainly
had,
but
I
think
that
are
workable
and
why
this
bill,
I
think,
lands
us
in
the
right
spot
in
wyoming.
D
Our
constitution
prohibits
the
out
flat
out
denial
of
bail
unless
you've
been
charged
with
a
capital
offense,
and
so
there
have
been
instances
where
courts
have
had
to
look
at
whether
bail
has
been
excessive
or,
in
other
instances,
bail,
was
denied
because
of
concerns
about
flight
risk.
Those
are
not
permitted.
However,
it's
important
to
recognize
that
our
courts
and
judges
have
a
lot
of
discretion
to
impose
conditions
on
bail
and
those
can
include
anything.
D
You
know
you
behave
yourself
when
you're
out
there
on
bail
or
you
could
lose
your
bail
money,
and
so
that's
what
this
is
seeking
to
do
is
not
to
deny
a
defendant
outright
bail,
but
to
impose
a
condition
for
them
to
be
released,
and
so
that,
with
with
that,
madam
chair,
that's
the
essence
of
the
bill.
I'm
sure
you'll
have
lots
of
questions,
but
I
do
want
to
make
sure
that
if
you
have
questions
about
the
need
and
why
this
bill
was
brought
detective,
patterson
would
have
an
opportunity
to
speak.
Thank
you
thank.
C
C
D
Sure,
madam
chair
and
just
to
give
committee
members,
you
know,
I
know
our
good
chairwoman
has
practiced
in
criminal
law.
She
does
criminal
defense
work
as
a
full
disclaimer.
I
don't
practice
in
those
areas
I
reached
out
to
senator
nether
caught
several
months
ago
and
was
hoping
to
get
some
of
these
concerns,
maybe
fleshed
out
a
little
bit
more.
I
apologize
that
we
weren't
able
to
connect
and
get
some
of
those
concerns
flushed
out
before
we
came
to
you
today.
D
C
Thank
you
senator
ellis
for
the
committee's
members
concerned.
Senator
ellis
did
reach
out
to
me.
I
expressed
concerns
about
the
bill
regarding
eighth
amendment
concerns
associated
with
the
right
to
bail
and
bond
significant
work
that
the
supreme
court
has
done
on
this
topic
in
the
opposite
direction
of
what
this
bill
does,
and
primarily
as
a
result
of
the
overwhelmed
court
system
that
we
currently
have
and
how
these
hearings
would
occur
and
really
creating
a
very
complicated,
prolonged
secondary
hearing
in
a
very
important
criminal
type
case.
C
Typically
a
felony,
and
so
I
just
felt
it
was
pretty
cumbersome
and
and
didn't
support
the
legislation.
And
so
that's
that's
where
that
falls.
So
further
clarification
on
that
piece.
Senator
french.
E
Yes,
madam
chair
senator
ellis
or
the
gentleman
sorry,
I
forgot
your
title.
Forgive
me
detective
patterson,
detective
on
it
starts
online
page
1
914
goes
through
on
page
two,
one
through
four.
E
How
do
you
determine
that
the
proceeds
are
derived
from
a
criminal
offense
or
or
not?
How
do
you
determine
that
that,
okay,
that,
in
the
scenario
you
you
laid
out,
that
the
one
gets
away
with
the
cash
and
then
suddenly
the
other
one
is
bailed
out
with
a
bunch
of
cash?
How
do
you
determine
it
was
maybe
not
grandma
or
want
to
bail
out
her
grandson
or
how?
How
do
you
make
that
determination
that
was
still
gotten
or
it
was
the
cash
from
the
the
robbery
senator.
D
Ellis,
thank
you.
Thank
you,
madam
chair
and
senator
french.
You
know
other
states
do
this
and
so
evidence
that
they
could
show
would
be
a
grandmother
and
you
you're
nailing
it
right
on
the
head.
It
would
be
a
grandmother
showing
up
with
bank
records
saying
this
is
my
bank
statement,
and
this
is
where
the
funds
came
from,
so
the
intent
isn't
to
create
a
pre-trial
trial,
and
that
was
my
concern
with
this
bill
as
well.
D
You
know
we
don't
want
to
overload
our
courts,
but
we
wanted
to
make
sure
that
courts
have
this
discretion.
So
we
use
permissive
language
saying
that
this
is
a
may
and
not
a
shall
the
courts
do
this
and
if
you,
but
if
you
wanted
to
tighten
up
the
language
a
little
bit
further,
you
could
add
language,
I'm
guessing
on
page
two
in
those
first
four
lines
clarifying
if
the
underlying
crime
involves
theft
or
illegal
use
of
money.
D
That
kind
of
thing,
so
I
think,
there's
room
for
improvement
if
or
to
address
that
concern
that
I
don't
think
you're
going
to
see
this
happening
in
every
case.
I
think
it's
going
to
be
limited
to
those
that
involved
theft
and
large
sums
of
cash
and
wondering
where
that
money
came
from,
but
I
I
offered
direct
detective
patterson.
He
has
actually
done
some
research
on
this
looked
at
how
it
operates
in
other
states,
and
so
I'd
actually
welcome
him
and
defer
to
him
for
further
clarification
on
what
kind
of
documentation
would
be
provided.
C
F
Yes,
madam
chairman,
my
name
is
casey
patterson
I've
been
a
detective
with
the
cheyenne
police
department
for
15.
I've
been
with
the
shine
police
department
for
15
years,
been
a
detective
for
the
last
two
years.
Prior
to
that,
I
have
service
with
the
laramie
county
sheriff's
office
here
in
cheyenne.
Essentially,
I
brought
the
idea
of
a
bail
source
law
to
senator
ellis
in
2020
or,
as
a
result
of
a
case.
I
worked
involving
subjects
who
were
contacted
and
arrested
for
stealing
from
sam's
club
locations
across
the
country.
F
One
of
the
suspects,
I'm
sorry
subjects
was
had
his
bail
set
at
50
000
cash.
A
few
days
later
associates
of
his
came
from
across
the
country
to
laramie
county
circuit
court
with
a
duffel
bag
that
contained
fifty
thousand
dollars
in
cash.
F
A
few
days
later.
I'm
sorry,
the
the
defendant
in
this
case
had
been
arrested
with
twenty
five
thousand
dollars
in
cash
on
his
person.
F
I
could
prove
at
that
time
the
cash
was
stolen.
He
had
no
legitimate
employment
and
no
assets.
He
was
also
associated
with
known
criminals,
whose
only
source
of
income
was
theft
of
jewelry
electronics
and
cash.
No
questions
could
be
asked
by
the
prosecution
into
the
source
of
the
defendant's
cash.
So
if
he
had
been
released
and
vanished,
there
would
be
no
incentive
for
him
to
return
to
face
charges.
F
So
the
fifty
thousand
dollars
cash
was
taken
by
judge
lee,
they
had
to
fill
out
a
form
8300.
Basically,
a
ctr
one
copy
went
to
the
wyoming
supreme
court
and
one
went
to
the
u.s
attorney's
office,
which
is
apparently
the
practice
that
the
supreme
court,
the
wyoming
supreme
court,
has
set
in
place
for
the
for.
F
For
incidents
like
this
to
happen,
judge
judge
williams
at
the
bond
hearing
also
put
a
put
a
provision
in
this
defendant's
bond
that
he
was
to
either
surrender
his
passport
or
provide
proof
that
some
government
had
provided
documentation
that
this
person's
passport
had
been
surrendered.
To
that
other
government.
He
was
a
foreign
national.
F
F
The
defendant
was
not
allowed
to
abscond.
Interestingly
enough,
he
was
unable
to
provide
his
passport
or
proof
his
passport
had
been
seized,
so
he
in
the
meantime,
the
case
went
from
state
to
federal,
so
it
was
enough
to
hold
him
in
custody
and-
and
quite
honestly,
it
took
some
thinking
outside
of
the
box
to
play
within
the
rules,
but
be
creative
enough
to
keep
him
in
custody
so
that
he
could
be
held
and
didn't
abscond
the
jurisdiction
of
either
the
state
or
federal
system
in
wyoming.
C
F
I
personally
do
not,
and
in
in
speaking
with
senator
ellis.
F
We
didn't
want
to
incorporate
asset
forfeiture
any
type
of
seizure
as
part
of
this
bill,
rather
make
it
the
court
being
able
to
say
yes
or
no
we're
going
to
accept
this,
because
we
have
concerns
that
this
person's
only
source
of
income
is
from
criminal
activity.
In
fact,
in
u.s
versus
nebia,
one
of
the
one
of
the
judges
held
that
a
defendant
has
no
right
to
illegally
acquired
property.
F
Thus,
posting
bond
with
illegally
acquired
property
provides
no
security
for
the
defendant's
appearance,
so
it
was
really
more
of
a
question:
does
does
the
court
accept
it
or
does
the
court
not
accept
it?
In
the
event
the
court
does
not
accept
it.
It
doesn't
mean
at
a
later
time
the
court
could
accept.
Let's
say,
for
example,
grandma
does
come
along
and
pull
some
money
together
and
is
able
to
post
a
bond
with
legally
acquired
property.
Her
money.
G
On
page
two
lines:
six
through
10
it
talks
about
documentation.
Would
this
be
documentation
similar
to
what
we
might
have
to
provide
for
down
payment
on
loan,
or
is
it?
What
are
you
actually
looking
for
there
senator.
Thank
you,
I'm
sorry,
madam
chair,
madam
chair
first,
and
then
senator.
Is
it
similar
to
something
you
would
provide
for
for
a
down
payment
on
loan
or
what
are
you
actually
looking
for
there.
D
Senator
ellis,
thank
you,
madam
chairman,
and
senator
cooper.
I
think
this
is
purposefully
left
broad.
You
know,
as
the
detective
mentioned,
you
have
instances
where
individuals
don't
have
bank
accounts
and
don't
have
employment,
so
it
makes
it
calls
into
question
where
certain
amounts
of
cash
came
from,
but
if
a
defendant
had
proof
and
that
they
had
a
bank
account,
they
came
from
a
savings
account.
A
checking
account
pay.
Stub
saying
you
know
this
is
where
my
money
comes
from,
and
this
is
how
I
paid
this
bond.
D
Those
should
be
sufficient
and
then
to
answer
the
question.
I
know
that
the
good
senator
never
asks
a
question
that
she
doesn't
know
the
answer
to
so
I'm
sure
she'll
enlighten
you,
but
my
understanding
is
the
bail
is
the
amount
that
you
have
to
pay
to
get
out.
A
bond
is
when
you
lack
those
sufficient
funds,
so
you
have
somebody
else
post
on
your
behalf
and
if
I'm
wrong,
I
happily
will
take
the
correction
from
the
good
chairman.
F
It's
to
ensure
their
appearance
in
future
court
hearings.
F
Well,
not
when
not
when
they're
part
of
an
organized
crime
group
where
the
gentleman
who
was
with
this
guy
was
convicted
in
another
country
of
st
stealing
11
million
euro.
Fifty
thousand
dollars
in
this
case
with
these
people
was
not
a
lot
of
money
to
probably
everyone
in
this
room.
Fifty
thousand
dollars
it'd
be
a
big
dent,
but
the
ultimate
goal
is
to
ensure
that
the
the
bail
that's
posted
is
is
honest,
money.
It's
it's,
not
money
that
was
stolen.
It's
not
money
that
was
laundered.
F
It's
not
money
with
blood.
F
B
Thank
you,
chairwoman.
Thank
you
to
david
patterson.
I
had
a
question
and
it
relates
more
directly
to
probably
your
side
of
the
knowledge
that
you've
gained
sure,
specifically
the
documentation
issue,
and
you
know
I
I'm
in
favor
of
this
type
of
way
of
addressing
this
issue.
However,
there's
the
flip
side,
we've
got
the
potential
abuses.
B
We've
got
people
that
may
be
not
like
you
who
who
abuse
the
this
potential
statute
change,
and
how
do
you
do
you
think
this
covers
that,
because
the
hearing,
the
documentation
issue
is
really
a
broad
statement.
B
You
know,
I
would,
I
think,
when
you
look
at
good
people
doing
the
right
things,
there
probably
isn't
an
issue,
but
if
some
folks
that
maybe
are
upset
with
somebody
personally
or
have
an
axe
to
grind
with
them
in
law
enforcement,
would
rake
someone
over
the
coals,
basically
of
trying
to
produce
some
sort
of
documentation
that
they
feel
is
appropriate,
and
you
know
I
understand
the
need
and,
like
I
say,
I'm
supportive,
but
could
you
explain
how
we
have
some
sideboards
on
this
to
stop
that
abuse
from
potentially
happening?
F
Thank
you,
one
of
the
one
of
the
first
things
I
I
remember
coming
to
mind
and,
and
speaking
to
senator
ellis
about
is
I
I
don't
want
this
to
become
weaponized.
Just
like
no
law,
that's
on
the
books
should
become
weaponized
to
to
punish
someone
while
they're
already
going
through
the
system,
and
so
I
I
would,
I
would
absolutely
be
heartbroken
if,
if
I
found
there
was,
there
was
some
person
that
was
using
any
law
that
was
on
the
books
against
someone
for
the
intent
of
maybe
having
an
axe
to
grind
against
them.
F
That
being
said,
you
know
I
I've
got
a
couple
examples
of
some
real
world
cases
here,
in
which
you
know
people
are
found
either
they're
pimping,
they're,
stealing,
just
large
amounts
of
cash,
be
it
a
bank
robbery,
as
senator
ellis
had
mentioned,
or
maybe
just
a
real
world
example.
The
wyoming
highway
patrol
just
posted
on
their
facebook
page
from
february
9th.
F
Some
people,
I
believe,
is
in
sublet
county
were
contacted
and
they
had
nothing,
but
they
they're
from
florida.
They
had
stolen
credit
cards
on
them;
they
had
just
just
all
kinds
of
like
forge
checks
and
just
all
kinds
of
stuff,
so
they're,
obviously
on
a
cross-country
crime,
expedition
and-
and
I
would
hope
if,
if
this,
if
this
bill
leaves
this
room
going
forward-
that
some
very
real
guidance
is
maybe
what
you're
referring
to
as
to
when
it's
appropriate
when
it's
absolutely
not
appropriate,
it's
not
absolutely
appropriate
for
it.
For
example,.
F
Reality
is
a
lot
a
lot
of
people
that
their
cases
come
across.
My
desk
they're
in
a
low
they're
not
doing
well
financially
anyways,
and
so
we
wouldn't
want
to
make
their
situation
worse
or
make
their
family
situation
worse
by
forcing
them
to
go
out
and
commit
crimes,
cut
off
catalytic
converters
on
cars,
for
example,
to
try
to
save
up
enough
money
to
get
their
family
member
out
of
custody
pending
for
their
court
hearings.
F
Again.
That
being
said,
we
can
go
back
to
the
example
of
what
just
happened
in
sublet
county
or
what
happens
almost
on
a
monthly
basis
where
we
we
see
highway
patrol.
Does
an
interdiction
stop
on
interstate
80.
and
there's
a
little
bit
of
drug
paraphernalia
in
the
car,
but
there's
another
duffel
bag
full
of
cash
and
and.
F
That
money
would
be
seized,
but
it
doesn't
mean
if
that
person's
arrested.
Maybe
they
have
a
warrant
from
another
state
which
happens:
okay,
where's
this
other
money
coming
from
to
to
bond
them
out
again.
Putting
the
seizure
and
the
forfeiture
stuff
aside,
is
just
an
example
of
where,
where
would
this
person's
source
of
bail
come
from?
Is
it
from
a
legitimate
source?
F
If
they
have
no,
no
employment
history,
they
don't
have
any
assets,
such
as
a
house,
their
own
car
they're
in
a
rental
car,
which
was
the
case
in
my
my
the
first
example
I
brought
where
the
they
had
the
fifty
thousand
dollars
cash
brought
in.
They
were
in
a
rental,
car
and
they're
just
moving
across
the
country,
so.
F
Correct
and
this
and
that
usu
obviously
as
everyone
I'm
sure
knows,
that
happens
at
at
least
the
initial,
and
then
the
prelim
is
typically
where
bail
is
is
argued.
I
asked
one
of
the
prosecutors
in
my
case
that
I
was
working.
F
If
they
could
argue
for
this
type,
this
is
before
I
knew.
Wyoming
did
not
have
the
ability
to
argue
for
a
nebia
type
hold,
which
is,
which
is
what
a
bail
source
hearing
is.
I
was
told
by
the
prosecutor.
We
can't
do
that
in
this
state
case
and
we're
not
even
allowed
to
argue
about
a
defendant's
ability
to
pay
bond
as
a
reason
to
seek
a
higher
bond.
F
D
Chair
it
does
senator
ellis
madam
chair
just
to
kind
of
build
on
that,
and
the
difficulty
in
bringing
this
bill
is
how
many
sideboards
do
you
want
baked
in
here.
You
know
I'm
aware
of
the
courts
having
this
discussion
about
where
they
want
to
go,
and
so
we
did
afford
them
some
ability
to
have
this
conversation.
What
are
they
seeing
in
their
communities?
D
What's
the
need
for
this,
and
so
that's
where
it's
purposefully
left
to
rely
on
on
our
courts
to
kind
of
sift
through
some
of
those
issues,
but
when
you
talk
about
flight
risk,
you
know
when
they
enter
when
they're
debating
how
much
or
not
debating,
but
when
the
court's
considering
how
much
to
set
bail.
If
you
have
concerns
that
there's
a
flight
risk,
they
can't
just
automatically
deny
you
bail,
that's
baked
into
our
constitution,
so
what
I
think
you'll
start
seeing
is
you
can
increase
that
amount,
maybe
50,
maybe
100,
maybe
150..
D
I
think
this
might
actually
have
the
opposite
effect
that
if
you
can
show
that
this
money
came
from
your
bank
account
and
that
ten
thousand
dollars
is
real
money
to
your
family,
to
you
that
it's
going
to
be
a
really
important
factor
in
just
demonstrating
that
you're
not
going
to
be
a
flight
risk,
but
if
the
source
of
the
money
is
obtained
illegally,
I
mean
we're
just
going
to
keep
kicking
that
number
up
higher
and
higher,
and
that
was
one
of
the
conversations
we
had,
and
this
is
a
value
judgment
for
this
committee
in
the
legislature,
is
if
someone
walks
away
from
that
bail
amount
at
50,
grand
and
they're
gone,
we
will
never
see
them
again
in
wyoming.
D
D
Yeah,
madam
chair,
and
so
it's
forfeited
and
beyond
that
I
don't
know
the
ins
and
outs
of
which
account
it
flows.
If
that's
your
inquiry,
but
it
is
it's
a
question.
Are
we
satisfied
that
you
can
essentially
walk
away
and,
and
then
you
walk
away,
and
so
that's
more
or
less
the
price
of
your
freedom?
You
never
come
back
to
wyoming
without
risk
of
being
arrested
again,
but
that's
a
value
judgment.
Maybe
that's!
Okay
with
you
to
me.
It's
not,
and
so
that's.
D
Sure
absolutely
madam
chair,
outside
of
the
state
of
wyoming,
so
your
freedom
is
with
that
caveat
that
you
don't
get
caught
in
another
jurisdiction.
Absolutely,
but
that's
my
concern,
and
so
that's
the
the
thing
for
us
to
ponder
as
a
legislature,
detective
patterson.
F
I
would
I
would
absolutely
echo
what
senator
ellis
had
said:
50
000,
that
is
forfeited,
because
someone
fails
to
appear
a
bench
warrant
then
issued
in.
In
my
case
I
had
three
individuals
who
were
romanian
nationals
if,
if
they
leave
the
country
and
wyoming
gets
another
fifty
thousand
dollars
in
its
pocket,
they
really
don't
care
if
they
ever
come
back
to
the
united
states
or
not,
they
came
in
illegally
and
and
there's
there's,
there's
simply
no
incentive
for
them
to
come
back
for
any
future
court.
Appearances.
F
C
E
H
I
H
C
Thank
you,
mr
chairman.
Good
senators,
you
have
lottery
games
keno.
If
you
look
through
the
bill,
there's
very
little.
That's
actually
going
on
here,
page
2
lines.
8
through
10,
is
the
onus
of
the
bill,
and
it
says
this
paragraph
shall
not
be
construed
to
restrict
the
use
of
electronic
self-service
terminals
for
a
statewide
keynote
game,
and
so
the
issue
really
this
bill
is
addressing,
is
the
lack
of
express
statutory
authority
for
the
machines
associated
with,
what's
already
allowed
in
our
state.
C
C
One
of
the
there
was
effort
by
the
lottery
board
to
move
this
issue
forward
before
and
now
it's
come
forward
with
exceptional
speed
as
a
result
of
the
pandemic
and
the
need
to
have
kind
of
independent
operators
associated
with
the
ability
to
play
these
games
that
bring
in
a
significant
amount
of
revenue
for
the
state
of
wyoming,
so
kind
of
a
simple
bill.
C
It's
my
you
know
belief
that
they
probably
already
could
do
this,
but
they
do
want
that
express
statutory
authority,
and
I
think
that
that's
prudent,
that
they
take
that
cautious
and
conservative
approach,
ensuring
that
every
step
that
they
take
is
approved
by
the
legislature.
With
that
good
senators.
I'd
stand
for
questions
on
this
bill,
but
I
would
direct
your
attention
to
the
fiscal
note
associated
with
the
revenue
increase
with
the
bill.
C
So
fiscal
year,
2022,
375
000
and
by
fiscal
year
2023
it
will
be
1.5
million
and
an
anticipated
1.5
million
dollars
in
annual
revenue
increase
good
senators.
I'm
not
aware
of
any
opposition
to
the
bill
either
from
retailers
or
those
that
are
authorized
to
do
this
or
anyone
else
who
is
interested
in
this
particular
issue.
It
really
is
just
kind
of
a
a
fix
in
our
statute
to
allow
for
that
express
statutory
authorization
for
this
conduct.
E
C
C
So,
instead
of
having
to
go
to
the
teller,
you
know
to
the
clerk
and
purchase
it,
you
can
use
the
kiosk,
and
so
it's
a
kiosk
game
machine
that
would
be
available.
I
wouldn't
call
it
a.
I
guess:
it's
a
game,
but
a
kiosk
machine
associated
with
that.
So
the
bill
says:
there's
nothing
in
this
paragraph
to
restrict
the
use
of
self-service
terminals
for
the
purpose
of
keynote,
and
that's
all
it
does.
C
C
H
J
Proceed
good
morning
senator
thank
you
very
much.
My
name
is
matt
kaufman,
I'm
an
attorney
here
in
cheyenne
with
hathaway
and
coons.
I'm
outside
legal
counsel,
for
the
wyoming
lottery
with
me
over
here
is
mr
john
klontz.
The
ceo
of
the
wyoming
lottery,
senator
in
in
response
to
the
bill
presentation,
senator
nether
cut,
is
exactly
right.
J
The
the
lottery
has
been
planning
and
developing
the
game
of
kino
for
quite
some
time
for
those
not
familiar
with
the
game
of
kino.
It's
what
the
industry
calls
a
draw
style
game,
meaning
the
player
selects
numbers
just
like
you
do
for
powerball
or
mega
millions.
The
difference
in
kino
is
it's
played
on
a
shorter
interval,
so
it's
played
more
often
and
it's
usually
a
social
game,
in
other
words
people,
because
it's
played
on
a
shorter
interval.
People
like
to
play
it
together.
So
we
often
see
this
game
played
in
bars.
J
Restaurants,
taverns
things
like
that.
Traditionally,
as
senator
nethercott
said,
most
establishments
have
their
ticket
sales
occur
through
the
bartender
or
the
waiters
or
waitresses,
obviously,
with
with
new
coven
19
concerns
about
human
interaction.
J
Also,
there's
just
a
concern,
sometimes
with
bartenders
restaurants.
It
takes
their
time
to
do
that,
so
what
this
product
provides
an
opportunity
for
is
the
lottery
to
place,
essentially
a
ticket
dispensing
machine
in
the
corner
of
the
facility,
where
someone
could
walk
up
swipe
their
id
insert
their
cash
and
get
their
ticket.
It
saves
the
bar
restaurant,
the
the
hassle
of
having
to
have
someone
physically.
Do
it.
J
So
when
you
walk
into
a
convenience
store
now
and
buy
your
lottery
ticket,
obviously
you
pay
cash,
the
clerk
punches
in
the
numbers
and
you
get
your
your
ticket.
So
the
only
only
difference
here
is
no
one
is
playing
a
game
on
this.
This
ticket
dispensing
machine,
it's
just
a
way
for
players
to
get
their
ticket
without
having
to
deal
with
the
clerks
or
or
or
bartenders,
as
senator
nethercott
said,
we
have
done
this
analysis
years
ago,
there's
nothing
prohibiting
the
lottery
from
doing
kino.
J
Now
and
like
I
said,
the
lottery
is
planning
to
roll
out
keno,
regardless
research
has
shown,
though,
with
these
these
ticket
dispensing
machines,
the
revenue
tends
to
go
up
because
people
use
them
more
freely
and
it's
just
easier
for
bars
and
restaurants
to
administer.
So
with
that,
the
lottery
is
attempting
to
roll
out
kino
in
the
most
cost
efficient
way
and
a
way
that
returns
the
the
most
amount
of
return
to
the
people
of
the
state
of
wyoming.
B
B
J
K
Thank
you,
matt.
Thank
you,
senator
nethercott,
thank
you,
senators,
john
klontz,
the
ceo
of
the
wyoming
lottery
and
again,
yes,
this
particular
ticket
dispensing
machine.
K
Our
our
sole
interest
is
convenience
for
the
player
to
avoid
the
backlog
that
would
be
created,
just
as
you
suggested,
especially
in
the
new
170
to
200
locations
and
bars
and
grills,
and
when
the
when
the
hostess
staff
become
overwhelmed
and
we're
going
to
sell
less
product,
and
we
think
we
might
even
be
able
to
double
the
revenue
return
with
the
use
of
kiosks
because
of
the
convenience
factor
and
what
we've
seen
from
our
research
and
other
lotteries.
We
could
kiosks
are
used
in
many.
K
Many
states
in
the
c
stores,
as
you
mentioned,
truck
stops
everywhere
for
other
products.
But
we
run
into
this
issue
in
the
law
that
map
stated
but
kino
is
a
game,
requires
a
lot
of
player
education
and
it
is
a
fast
play,
fun
game
and
it
will
generate
a
lot
of
interest,
and
so
the
convenience
factor
is
what
we're.
After
so
we
can
maximize
the
sales.
But
yes,
you
could
put
all
of
the
games
on
a
on
a
ticket
dispensing
machine
if,
if
we
were
permitted
to
as
possible.
K
H
Other
questions
from
okay
is
there
any
more
from
either
of
you?
Is
there
anybody
else
in
the
room
that
wishes
to
testify,
not
seeing
anybody?
I
don't
see
anybody
out
online
that
has
raised
their
hand.
Is
there
anybody
online?
That's
wanting
to
testify.
M
Good
morning,
thank
you,
mr
chairman,
jim
willix,
chairman
of
the
wyoming
county
commissioners
association
and
in
full
disclosure,
also
a
member
of
the
wyoming
lottery
board,
serving
as
a
representative
of
local
government
on
that
board.
The
wyoming
county
commissioners
association
previously
supported
a
version
of
this
bill.
Well,
we
haven't
taken
this
bill
up
because
of
the
timing.
M
We
fully
believe
the
commission
association
will
be
in
support
of
this.
As
has
been
testified,
it
will
increase
revenue
to
local
government,
which,
of
course,
is
a
needed
thing
in
this
time
and
age
and
and
when
you
look
at
it
as
a
simplicity
thing,
it
really
makes
kino
a
game
that
is
widely
supported
and
widely
available.
This
also
provides
a
revenue
stream
for
our
small
businesses
that
would
put
these
kiosks
and
or
having
clerks
deal
with
the
kino
game
within
their
businesses.
M
So
it's
a
revenue
stream
not
only
for
government
but
also
for
the
businesses
and
is
another
fun
thing
for
people
to
do.
I
can
back
up
the
numbers
that
both
matt
and
john
said
about
how
keno
is
much
more
successful
if
we
have
the
kiosks
and
so
and
both
my
hat
as
commissioners
association.
We
support
this
bill
as
a
member
of
the
lottery
board.
It
is
the
most
successful
way
to
implement
kino,
and
with
that,
mr
chairman,
I
would
stand
for
any
questions.
H
G
A
C
C
C
He
is
in
jac
every
morning,
good
senators,
but
he
does
have
a
bill
in
another
committee,
so
we
will
table
the
bill.
So
thank
you
for
that
senator
cole.
We
will
move
on
to
good
little
bell:
send
up
file
66,
good
senators.
We
have
a
great
deal
of
time
this
morning.
It
is
only
8
43,
so
we
are
moving
through
these
bills
with
rapid
speed.
G
G
N
G
A
lot
of
gravity
to
me,
especially
the
center
file
66,
is
very
directly
applies,
the
slayer's
rule
to
joint
tenancy
and
other
instruments
of
of
joint
ownership
or
property.
G
I
G
If
this
happens,
the
person
who
perpetrates
a
crime
cannot
profit
from
it
as
it
should
be.
So
it's
it's
a
real,
simple
thing,
but
it's
not
in
the
bill
itself.
On
page
two,
the
the
part
of
the
bill
as
lines:
five
through
line
eight,
it
says.
G
That's
pretty
direct
the
the
reason
we're
hearing
this
today
is
a
tragic
situation,
and
there
is
a
gentleman
in
the
audience
here
today,
who'd
like
to
testify
to
that.
If
his
appreciative
committee,
thank
you
man.
C
All
right,
thank
you,
senator
cooper,
all
right,
we'll
have
you
stay
there
senator
cooper.
Do
I
have
any
public
comment
on
this
bill?
If
so,
please
come.
C
C
O
My
name
is
mel
walker.
I
live
in
worland
and
my
wife
darling
sitting
in
the
back
here.
O
Went
and
shot
and
killed
the
family
pets,
four,
maybe
five
dogs
and
a
cat,
and
then
a
few
hours
later
shot
himself.
O
What
it
is,
it
has
been
just
nothing
but
a
nightmare
to
get
through.
We
have,
and
I'm
probably
going
to
be,
jumping
back
and
forth
here
a
little
bit
to
get
this.
O
O
We
tried
to
call
and
tell
a
teacher,
thank
you
and
whatever,
but
no
answer
on
the
phone,
which
wasn't
real
uncommon
for
her,
not
to
answer
her
phone
right
away.
So
wasn't
wasn't
any
red
flags
that
were
raised
up
at
that
point
in
time
we
had
let
it
go
into
the
night,
still
not
concerned
for
anything
we
didn't
know
if
they
had
gone
out
of
town
or
what
was
going
on
so
about
10
30.
That
night
I
got
a
phone
call
from
my
nephew
who
had
gotten
a
phone
call
from.
O
And
the
neighbors
across
the
street
had
called
and
told
her
about
this
crime
scene
tape
around
my
daughter's
house
and
he
called
and
asked
me
if
I
hadn't
known
what
was
going
on.
I
said
no,
I
have
no
idea,
so
we
called
and
and
no
answers
we
called
darren's
phone,
no
answers.
I
called
the
police
department
and
got
no
answers
actually
got
hung
up
on
three
or
four
times,
because
they
couldn't
give
me
any
information
and
and
grant
they
had.
No
idea
who
I
was
could
have
been
anybody
claiming
to
be
me.
O
O
Finally,
a
detective
called
me
back
2
2
2
30
in
the
morning,
and
he
confirmed
that
there
was
two
adults
that
were
deceased
in
the
house
along
with
family
pets.
O
Couldn't
give
me
the
names
we
went
to
casper
the
next
day
and
talked
with
police
chief
in
casper
and
detective
trimble,
and
they
explained
what
they
knew
at
that
time
is
still
under
investigation
at
this
time
they
suspected
it
was
a
murder-suicide,
didn't
know
all
the
facts
on
everything.
O
The
police
chief
tried
to
pass
it
off
as
domestic
violence.
This
was
not
a
domestic
violence
case.
There
was
no
domestic
violence
involved
in
in
their
relationship.
They
did
have
some
problems
earlier
in
the
summer,
got
them
worked
out.
There
was
never
any
domestic
violence,
so
this
this
was
just
an
act
of
rage.
Don't
know
why
obviously
had
an
argument
of
some
kind
prior
to
this,
I'm
assuming
and
that's
all.
That
is
an
assumption.
O
O
O
O
O
O
O
O
O
F
O
O
She
worked
for
the
municipal
courts
in
casper
and
her
boss
was
judge
cali
blunt
and
all
the
gals
in
the
office
were
pretty
close
and
they
did
a
lot
of
things
together
and
they
had
they
had
known
of
no
big
problems
and
with
their
relationships
either.
That
would
have
led
to
this
kind
of
a
ending
and
we
hired
back
where
I
was
going
with
that.
We
hired
rob
hand
hand-in-hand
attorneys
for
the
probate
attorney
for
her
estate
and
we
hired
him
pretty
early
on
when
this
happened.
I
wanted
to
get
things
rolling.
O
I
wanted
to
try
to
get
things
done
as
quick
as
we
can
we're
quite
a
ways
away
from
casper,
so
it's
not
convenient
by
any
means
just
to
run
back
and
forth,
but
not
knowing
how
long
was
this
was
going
to
take.
O
O
Small
things
of
we
were,
we
were
had
a
car
of
deeders
that
we
sold
by
the
court's
court's
permission.
We
went
and
picked
it
up,
took
it
to
orlando,
had
it
detailed
got
it
cleaned
up,
serviced
out,
sold
it
a
young
young
gal
that
was
going
to
college,
and
it
was
a
nice
car
and
we
got.
O
Sidelined
after
the
fact
of
selling
this
car
to
the
fact
of
the
attorney
said,
the
judge
did
not
have
the
authority
to
make
the
decision
to
sell
the
car
the
car.
The
money
is
still
in
estate
funds.
It's
not
in
my
account
it's
it's
all.
All
the
funding
is
documented.
It's
it's
at
the
bank
in
orland.
It
can
be
accessed
whenever
it
needs
to
be
accessed
to
see.
What's
there
all
the
numbers
match
up,
nothing
has
been
taken,
the
car
is
gone
and
they
say
that
the
judge
did
not
have
the
right
to
do
that.
O
O
Because
of
this
law
that
doesn't
do
us
much
good,
I
don't
know
how
he
would
why
he
would
come
up
with
something
like
that
other
than
he
did
ruthless,
very
uncaring.
O
O
O
O
O
I've
had
teeth
ripped
out
because
I've
ground
them
down
to
nothing.
So
I
got
to
get
new
teeth
jobs.
That's
our
business
has
suffered
a
bit
other.
You
know
relationships
with
other
other
kids
and
everything's
good,
but
it
takes
its
toll.
There's
there's
always
something
there
that
is
coming
up
to
get
in
the
way
of
something
else.
O
It's
it's
hard
to
explain
that,
but
there
are
those
other
issues
out
there
that
need
to
be
addressed,
but
then
you
can't
get
them
all
addressed
because
you're
still
working
on
this
and
we
have
no
closure.
We
have.
I
have
no
idea
when
it's
gonna,
when
I'm
gonna
have
closure.
If
I
ever
will
with
this
here,
so
the
grieving
process
is
hasn't
even
started.
Yet
this
has
been
over
a
year.
I
O
Had
the
the
investigation
was
done
on
this
last
year
towards
the
end
of
april,
I
think
march
april
probably
would
have
been
april,
but
detective
peterson
from
the
casper
police
department.
He
drove
to
orland
and
let
us
know
what
was
going
on
gave
us
a
lot
of
details
about
things
that
we
didn't
know
had
existed
and
that
was
kind
of
kept
quiet
from
everybody,
just
as
a
precaution
and
they
went
above
and
beyond
and
out
of
their
way.
O
O
O
I
don't
think
there
was
any
any
stone
left
unturned
on
this
thing.
O
O
O
O
O
You
know
and
I've
got
I've
got
some.
I
got
some
great
kids
that
you
know
my.
My
wife
has
three
daughters
and
we
got
got
a
a
boy
that
we
adopted.
Who
was
her
biological
grandson
and
he's
they're
they're
they're,
my
kids.
We
do
a
lot
together,
we
have
we
have.
O
O
O
On
other
holidays
and
special
events
will
will
be
slowed
down
and
take
a
different
direction
on.
O
O
And
it's
still
what
it
is,
never
goes
away
and
there's
not
any
vast
amounts
of
money
in
this
account
this
this
state
of
dangers
and
darren's
there's
it's
it's
not
a
wealthy
thing.
O
O
O
O
We
had
some
police
officers
that
helped
us
from
the
casper,
pd
and
stuff
that
we
went
in
and
we
inventoried
the
house
and
we're
just
waiting
for
a
sale
of
items,
but
that's
never
been
approved
yet
because
of
the
stalemate
that
these
other
attorneys
have
put
on
us.
I
filed
a
wrongful
death
suit
with
an
attorney
in
buffalo
chris
wages.
So
I
could
slow
this
process
down
and
get
get
things
lined
out
the
way
they
need
to
be.
O
We've
thrown
up
some
roadblocks
for
them
also,
but
we've
done
it
legally.
We
haven't.
O
C
So
as
a
co-sponsor
of
the
bill-
and
we
have
discussed
this
issue,
I'm
happy
to
try
to
help
and
support
and
provide
clarity.
So
this
doesn't
happen
to
another
family
again
and
hopefully
we
are
making
a
difference
for
you
and
and
for
those
families
affected
by
this.
I
know
some
of
deidra's
friends
are
here
to
testify
as
well.
I
think
they're
up
in
casper
and
they're
gonna
appear
on
zoom.
So
let's
hear
from.
C
C
N
We
are
asking
for
your
support
for
senate
file
0066
to
apply
the
slayer
law
to
survivorship
in
cases
of
domestic
homicide
and
otherwise
wyoming's
law
is
severely
outdated
and
this
change
would
bring
it
in
line
with
the
other
all
other
states
in
the
10th
judicial
district
that
provide
and
discuss
for
survivorship.
In
these
situations,.
L
Okay,
my
name
is
erica
ketchum.
Oh,
I
didn't
say
my
name.
Sorry.
Then
it
is
february
15th
of
2020.,
it's
a
dark,
windy
and
very
cold,
and
I'm
standing
outside
on
the
front
steps
of
deidra's
house.
The
wind
stops
blowing
and
I
can
hear
an
officer
talking
on
his
radio,
too
deceased.
L
L
L
L
Now,
I'm
going
to
take
you
back
to
the
day
before
deidre's
body
was
found.
It
was
february
14th
of
2020.
I
was
blessed
to
see
deidra,
not
knowing
that
this
would
be.
The
last
and
final
goodbye
deidre
came
to
my
house
that
evening,
with
a
gift
for
me
and
a
warm
hug
for
my
three
kids
as
they
were
wandering
off
to
bed,
they
hugged
her
and
she
hugged
them
back
tightly
and
told
each
of
them
good
night.
L
L
L
L
L
L
I
jumped
off
the
couch
and
started
shoving
my
feet
in
my
shoes
and
grabbing
my
purse,
and
my
husband
looked
at
me
in
shock
and
said:
is
everything
okay
and
I
responded
with
no
deidra
and
darren
aren't
answering
their
phone.
It's
not
like
her
she's
glued
to
her
phone.
I
think
something's
wrong.
I'm
gonna
drive
up
to
her
house
real,
quick
and
check
on
her.
My
husband
found
my
concern
and
grabbed
his
jacket
and
said
I'm
going
with
you.
L
L
L
We
were,
we
were
pounding
on
the
door
in
the
front
and
in
the
back,
and
I
decided
to
try
the
doggie
door
in
the
back
as
they
always
left
the
door
unlocked
with
four
dogs
and
a
large
cat
who
enjoyed
roaming
in
the
backyard.
I
tried
to
reach
through
and
my
hand
hit
a
doggie
door
blocker
as
if
the
house
was
locked
down
to
prevent
anyone
from
coming
in
or
going
out.
L
We
walked.
We
waited
on
the
front
porch
of
that
cold
and
snowy
day
for
the
police
to
arrive
when
the
police
finally
arrived.
They
confirmed
that
darren
and
deidra's
phones
indicated
that
both
of
them
were
at
the
house
I
reached
over
and
pushed
the
buttons
to
unlock
the
door.
We
didn't
do
this
earlier,
just
hoping
someone
would
come
to
the
door,
but
our
hearts
told
us
something
was
wrong
and
we
should
wait.
L
L
My
heart
shattered.
That
officer
came
out
to
tell
us.
There
were
two
individuals
inside
that
didn't
make
it,
and
I
asked
if
it
was
deidra
again.
The
officer
said
after
working
with
deidre
municipal
court
from
what
I
can
tell
it
is
I
melted
into
the
officer's
arms
sobbing
asking
if
all
the
dogs
were
okay
and
was
told
from
what
they
could
tell
the
animals
had
been
killed
too.
L
L
L
L
L
L
L
L
C
Thank
you,
ladies.
Thank
you,
so
much.
It's
so
helpful
to
see
how
this
kind
of
legislation
can
affect
real
people's
lives
from
dedra's
family
and
to
those
that
loved
her
her
friends.
I
think
she
was
very
fortunate
to
have
all
of
you
in
her
life
and
we
are
here
to
to
help
and
provide
some
healing.
I
hope
so
thank
you
for
being
with
us
this
morning
and
having
the
courage
to
share
the
story
and
walking
through
that.
I
know
it
was
painful
and
something
to
dread.
C
O
B
Thank
you,
madam
chairman.
I
just
wanted
to
reach
out
to
the
to
the
parents.
The
father
and
say
give
my
condolences
personally
and
thank
you
for
coming
down
here
to
explain
this.
I
don't
know
what
it's
like,
I'm
a
father.
I
don't
know
what
it's
like
to
be
in
your
situation,
but.
P
Issue
and
doing
this
will
help.
I
know
it
was
not
going
to
help
us,
but
knowing
how
deidra
loved
other
people
it
would
carry
on
her
memory.
It
was
so
important
to
her
when
we
had
her
funeral.
My
daughters
fly
from
all
over.
She
had
co-workers
that
she
worked
with
fly
from
all
over
one
thing
that
she
always
did
was
take
the
time
to
listen
to
them
where
they
felt
like
they
were
always
her
best
friend
and
I
knowing
what
we've
gone
through.
P
I
would
never
want
to
see
a
family
so
emotionally
and
financially
exhausted
from
fighting
the
system,
and
we
have
discussed
this
repeatedly
if
we
have
to
sell
everything
to
stand
up
for
what
is
right.
We
will
do
so
because
no
other
family
should
have
to
suffer
through
this,
and
I'm
thankful
that
you
would
even
consider
changing
this
law
that
will
help
others
in
the
future.
Thank
you
very
much.
C
Thank
you
so
much.
Thank
you
for
sharing
your
thoughts.
We
appreciate
you
having
the
courage
to
tell
her
story
again.
I
know
just
leading
up
to
this
day
and
the
opportunity
to
testify
is
hopefully
both
healing,
but
I
know
very
painful,
I'm
just
weighing
on
you,
so
we
do
appreciate
it
hearing
your
story
has
made
a
difference
and
we
thank
you
all
right
committee
senator
cooper.
Is
there
a
motion
on
the
bill.
C
E
B
C
Thank
you
senator
club.
Yes,
I
do
think
that
there
are
issues
associated
with
making
laws
retroactive,
primarily
as
a
result
of
concepts
associated
with
typically
in
the
criminal
code
called
x,
post
facto
laws,
which
is
when
you
make
laws.
Retroactive,
creates
an
unfair
playing
field
for
how
people
plan
and
make
issues,
and
it
can
really
create
more
complications.
Just
imagine
if
we
could
make
everything
retroactive.
C
I
don't
know
that
it
would
set
a
precedent,
as
opposed
to
it
would
create
complexity.
B
A
C
Thank
you
judy
all
right.
I
see
that
the
chairman
of
the
joint
appropriations
committee,
president
former
president
perkins,
is
here
senator
perkins.
Welcome.
Q
Did
you
do
any?
Did
you
amend
the
bill
at
all.
Q
Immediately
and
then
a
couple
questions
that
I
was
looking
at
that
bill
last
night
and
yesterday
a
couple
of
questions.
One
did
you
talk
about
the
effect
on
the
slayer
rule
of
of
you
you're
dealing
mostly
with
co-ownership
of
property,
but
there's
some
other
ways
that
property
transfers
besides
survivorship
there's
beneficiary
designations,
which
oftentimes
is
life
insurance,
but
there's
beneficiary
designations.
Also
for
iras
and
other
things
like
that
that
I'm
not
sure
are
covered
under
the
bills.
Q
It
is
now
there
were
also,
you
know,
there's
also
transfers
and
the
other
thing
that's
very
popular
now
is
transfer
on
death
or
payable
on
death,
and
indeed
we
already
have.
You
know
several
six
seven.
Maybe,
as
eight
years
ago,
the
legislature
passed
a
transfer
on
death
deeds,
they
actually
moved
real
estate
where
there's
no
real
co-ownership
or
present
interest
in
the
property.
Q
C
Senator
perkins
great
question,
so
when
we
look
at
the
statutory
section
being
amended,
it's
214
101
and
we
did
have
a
slayer's
rule
on
the
book
on
the
books
and
it
does
identify
that
under
214
101,
subsection
b,
that
no
beneficiary
of
any
policy
of
life
or
accident
insurance
or
certificates
of
membership
issued
by
any
benevolent
benevolent
association
or
organization
payable
upon
the
death
of
any
person
who
in
like
minor,
takes
or
causes
procures
another
to
take
the
life
of
another
she'll,
take
the
proceeds
of
such
a
policy
or
certificate.
C
So
I
do
think
that
we
have
that
particular
life
insurance,
but
I
do
think
maybe
there's
some
financial
accounts.
If
you
wanted
to
add
in
there,
we
certainly
there.
C
So
I
look
for
that
particular
amendment
on
the
floor.
If
you
would
like
to
in
a
studying
of
this
particular
statutory
section.
Q
Well-
and
I
apologize
I
meant
to
get
here-
and
I
had
a
couple
amendments
to
offer,
but
I've
you've
already
moved
on
the
bill,
so
we
can
talk,
but
I
wanted
to.
I
didn't,
have
the
advantage
of
being
here
for
the
discussion.
I
didn't
know
if
you'd
done
that,
and
I
just
thought
that
maybe
that
was
a
gap.
The
other
thing
I
I
wondered
about,
as
I
looked
at,
I
read.
The
slayer
statue
was
that
the
effect
is
that
it
it
now
goes
by.
Q
It
now
goes
accordance
with
the
laws
of
devise
and
descent,
so
the
intestacy
law
is
what
controls
that,
and
I
was
wondering,
is
there?
Is
there
I
was
wondering
you
know.
Is
there
a
reason
why
or
was
there
any
discussion,
as
you
considered
this
bill
about?
Why
that
wouldn't
follow
a
will
or
a
trust
or
other?
Q
If,
if
there's
something
that
goes
out
there,
I
wouldn't
necessarily
follow
that
which
would
be
the
the
you
know.
The
person
who
was
killed,
who
was
would
be
you,
know,
kind
of
what
their
overall
wishes
was,
but
then,
to
the
extent
that
the
person
who
killed
in
the
slayer
is
included
in
there
that
that
just
passes
as
though
that
person
pre-deceased
the
person
that
they
killed,
and
I
just
wondered
if
there
was
any
discussion
about
that
at
any
point
during
the
time.
Q
C
Senator
perkins
the
bill
did
not
come
over
the
interim
and
we
did
not
hear
any
legal
discussion
on
the
bill.
We
heard
testimony
regarding
the
practical
implications
associated
with
families
affected
by
this
issue,
so
I
I
do
look
forward
to
that
and
curious
to
discuss
it
with
you
further
as
to
how
you
think
if
a
person
did
have
a
will
how
that
would
operate
now.
In
the
event,
the
slayer's
rule
would
be
triggered.
Q
Yeah,
you
know
it
was
the
it
was
the
the
matter
was
it
was.
It
was
public,
it
was
the
young
man
in
in
converse
county
that
basically
was
drunk
and
ended
up
killing
his
mother
for
beer,
money
and
so
cleaning
up
after
that
mess,
and
that
was
her.
That
was
her
only
son
and,
of
course
he
he
didn't
contest
anything
he's
he's
in
prison.
Q
But
anyway,
as
we
went
through
that
process,
you
know
it
ended
up
in.
In
that
case
it
would
not
make
any
difference,
because
her
will
left
everything
to
her
son.
So
obviously
he
was
unable
to
inherit
under
the
slayer
rule.
So
the
but
you
know
as
you
as
you
work
through
that
I
I
just
was
wondering
and
and
if
you
have
any
thoughts
I'd
be,
I
was
thinking
about.
Why
wouldn't
that
happen?
Q
It
would
be
easy
enough
for
so,
for
example,
in
that
in
that
instance,
if
if
he,
if
everything
was
left
to
the
center
of
the
will,
but
the
the
son
was
the
one
who
causes
felonious
death,
then
obviously
he
can't
inherit
in
that
instance.
So
if
you,
if
it
passes
as
though
that
person
has
pre-deceased,
then
what
it
means
is
it's
like
that
it
was
like.
The
sun
was
already
dead
at
the
time
the
mother
died,
and
so
obviously
the
sun
can't
inherit,
and
in
that
case
it
wouldn't
make
any
difference.
Q
The
laws
of
devise
and
descent
would
be
exactly
the
same
as
the
will,
because
there's
no
other
provision
in
the
will.
But
let's
take
an
another
instance
where
let's
say
that
there
is
a
there
is
a
estranged,
son
or
daughter,
or
there
is
a
son
or
daughter
who
has
maybe
they're
on
medicaid,
maybe
they're,
maybe
they're,
you
know
or
or
maybe
they've
got
a
substance,
abuse
issue
and
they're,
not
the
one
who
caused
the
slayer
well
oftentimes
in
wills
or
trust.
You
make
ample.
Q
You
make
provisions
so
that
you
know
this
that
maybe
there's
a
trust
to
help
this
person
out,
but
it
doesn't
disqualify
them
from
governmental
benefits
or
maybe
there's
a
trust
to
help
them
out,
but
they're
afraid
if
they
get
a
chunk.
You
know
lump
sum
distribution
that
will
just
it
will
feed
their
substance,
abuse,
habit
or
other
things.
Like
that,
or
in
some
cases
you
know
you're
trying
to
help
grandchildren,
and
so
they
may
be
minors,
and
so
they
can't
actually
have
money.
Q
So
you
have
to
figure
out,
you
may
have
to
create
a
conservatorship,
or
things
like
that,
so
there
can
be
instances.
So
in
this
case,
where
they
have
multiple
son,
one
of
the
children
is
the
slayer
he's
just
inherited.
It
means
his
children
may
still
get
the
benefit
of
that
or
if
he
doesn't
have
in
this
case
a
he
or
could
be
a
she.
Q
But
if
he
doesn't
have
children,
then
it
would
most
likely
go
to
her
other
children,
but
all
of
a
sudden
here
comes
a
lump
sum
because
it
comes
under
the
laws
of
devise
and
descent
where
there
was
there's
actually
a
trust
or
other
provision
made
for
them
to
help
with
that-
and
I
was
just
as
I
thought
about
that-
it
was
like
if,
if
they've
manifested
what
they
want
to
have
done
with
this
property
and
they've
gone
to
the
trouble
to
make
a
will
or
a
trust.
Why
wouldn't?
Why?
Q
Wouldn't
we
as
a
state
want
to
have
a
policy
of
honoring?
Those
wishes
to
the
extent
it
doesn't
advantage
or
create
you
know,
doesn't
create
an
advantage
to
the
slayer
to
the
one
who
committed
this
felonious
assault.
So
I
I
just
I
didn't
know
what
and
if
the
committee
had
some
thoughts.
I
was
just
interested
in
that
part
of
the
discussion,
as
I
thought
about
how
this
applies
and
because
this
is
you
know,
this
is
where
I
spend
majority
of
my
practices
done
and
these
types
of
questions.
C
C
So
maybe
if
that
was
his
plan,
that
would
be
problematic,
but
we
might
be
complicating
it
too
far.
I
think
if
there
was
a
child
that
was
estranged
but
was
not
omitted
in
a
will,
then
that
was
a
default
in
the
will
and
that
child
would
be
allowed
to
inherit
anyway,
regardless
of
the
slayer's
rule,
and
I
think
if
there
was
somebody
who
was
under
medicaid
provision
planning
that
they'd
probably
have
to
disclaim
inheriting
and
there's
methods
available.
Q
For
that,
madam
chairman,
the
scammers
don't
work
anymore.
Those
are
considered
to
be
uncompensated,
transfers
and
ends
up
with
disqualification.
Well,
they
would
need
to.
C
Could
accommodate
for
those
concerns,
but
I
look
forward
to
hearing
your
amendments
on
the
floor
to
those
family
members
who
are
paying
attention
to
this.
It
would
not
alter
any
outcome.
Any
of
these
discussions
related
to
your
concerns.
It
would
only
strengthen
the
bill,
so
I
just
want
everyone
to
know
that
okay,
senator
perkins,
thank
you.
Q
Thank
you,
and-
and
you
know
I
I've-
I've
got
some
thoughts,
but
I'll
visit
with
you
further,
because
I
I
don't
want
to.
I
don't
want
to
mess
up
the
work
of
the
committee
and
I
haven't
had
the
advantage
of
the
discussion
and
testimony
you've
had
so
I'll
visit
with
you
offline
a
little
bit
about
that
before
I
before
I
offer
any
of
those.
Thank
you.
Thank.