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A
We're
good
we're
live
all
right,
let's
go
ahead
and
call
the
meeting
to
order.
Let's
go
ahead
and
start
out
with
roll
calls.
Please.
D
A
A
A
All
familiar
faces,
but
yeah,
please
state
your
name
who
you're
representing
just
chair.
Don't
don't
don't
make
me
crank
you
my
last
day,
okay,
I.
E
Good
morning,
Mr
chairs
and
members
of
the
committee,
my
name
is
Tom
Carter
I'm,
the
governor
Affairs
director
for
Pacific
Corp,
Rocky,
Mountain
Power.
It's
good
to
be
here
in
Casper
this
morning
with
me,
is
Rick
Cason,
who
is
also
represents
Rocky
Mount
power
up
here
a
few
weeks
ago
about
two
little
more
than
two
weeks
ago,
we
provided
a
letter
at
the
request
of
lso
answering
some
questions
that
were
post
to
us
at
the
last
Committee
hearing,
I'm
happy
to
give
you
high
level
response
to
that
and
know.
A
E
Absolutely
sounds
good
well.
The
first
question
we
were
asked
is:
would
you'd
like
to
see
a
map
of
the
transmission
Alliance
that
compromise
the
energy
Gateway
West
project
we've
provided
that
map
as
a
attachment,
a
you
can
see
that
that
is,
will
run
throughout
the
West.
It's
about
416
total
miles,
but
124
of
those
miles
will
be
here
in
Wyoming.
We
anticipate
a
little
more
than
1300
construction
jobs
and
will
be
completed
in
about
two
years.
E
We're
excited
about
what
that
means
for
power
generation
and
power
transmission,
and
we
love
talking
about
generation.
But
transmission
is
the
highway
that
makes
it
go.
I
always
say
the
transmission
is
the
sexy
part
of
electricity.
So
we're
excited
about
what
that
means.
We
did
break
ground
on
that
project
the
day
that
we
were
here
last,
so
we're
excited
about
what
that
means.
E
We
anticipate
that
in
2024
the
amount
of
electricity
generated
in
Wyoming.
That's
we
give
you
a
full
breakdown
of
that
and
attachment
b,
our
coal
generation
or
sorry.
Our
our
thermal
generation
is
about
8.25
megawatts
8.25
million.
E
Megawatts
of
that
to
answer
your
question
about
13.8
percent
stays
in
the
state
of
Wyoming,
and
then
86
percent
of
that
goes
out
of
state.
Wyoming
is
a
great
Rich
history
of
being
an
energy
exporter.
A
You
have
any
questions
on
any
of
that,
so
I
get
I.
Guess
one
thing
when
you
know
and
I
I
know
we'll
be
pulling
off
a
couple
cool
units,
but
with
the
camera
project,
hopefully
getting
online
in
about
seven
years
is
what
to
the
extent
you
can
discuss
it
publicly?
What
what
excess
capacity
do
you
have
available
for
additional
generation
in
Wyoming.
E
Yeah,
that's
a
great
question
and,
as
you
know,
we
are
full
full
system
right.
So
it's
not
just
Wyoming
generation,
it's
it's
throughout
the
Rocky
Mountain
West,
the
entire
West,
as
we
generate
at
this
point.
We
we
don't.
We
are
continuing
to
build
additional
generation
we're
we
want
to
build
as
much
generation
as
possible
through
our
IRP
process.
We
will
be
looking
at
at
what
new
needs
will
come
to
place.
E
I'll
talk
about
this
later
on
what
our
carbon
capture
project
is
going
to
look
like
as
we
go
into
Market
with
RFP
here
in
about
a
week,
and
then
we'll
have
an
announcement
later
today
about
additional
generation
projects
that
I
can't
get
into
until
we
make
that
public
in
the
day.
So
we're
always
constantly
looking
at
ways
to
to
look
ways
to
ensure
that
we
have
an
appropriate
amount
as
much
generation
as
we
possibly
can.
A
A
E
That's
a
great
question:
Mr
chair,
I,
think
what
what
I
see
and
and
really
will
go
in
line
is
we're.
Currently
writing
our
2023
integrated
resource
plan
is,
we
can't
move
faster
than
technology
will
allow,
and
so,
while
we
do
have
these
closure
dates.
They're
sitting
out
there
we're
working
within
new
technologies
like
I
mentioned
the
CC
us
as
well
as
other
opportunities
to
to
make
it
happen.
You
and
I've
spoken
about
this
earlier
this
morning
that
oftentimes
oftentimes
we
we
are,
there
are
pressures
to
move
faster
than
technology
allows.
E
So
as
we
look
at
storage
battery,
wind
other
other
opportunities
or
kind
of
what
the
needs
may
be
for
our
service
territory,
I'm
I'm
interested
and
encouraged
to
see
what
our
planning
team
will
be
putting
together
for
2023,
but
as
far
as
finding
ways
to
ensure
the
artwork
we're
using
the
assets
we
have,
that
are
our
full
life
of
these
current
generation.
Assets
are
achieved,
I
think
we're
on
target.
Okay,.
A
Thank
you,
yeah
go
ahead,
Senator.
F
E
Room
we,
you
know,
so
we
build
towards
towards
full
capacity
right.
So
there
are
a
day
like
today
where
we
probably
won't
be
using
all
of
our
excess
generation,
because
you
know
it's
cold,
so
people
aren't
running
there,
air
conditioning
they're,
not
using
that
we,
we
will
probably
have
capacity
on
our
system,
but
you
build
towards
what
our
full
capacity
is.
We
heat
we
this
last
summer
we
reached
capacity
on
our
full
system.
E
We
peaked
as
they
say
in
in
mid-september,
so
we
can't
just
say
that
there
is
excess
capacity
on
the
system
and
because
there's
never
necessarily
excess
capacity.
It's
you
have
to
be
able
to
on
days
when
it's
hot
or
days
when,
when
we
need
the
full,
our
full
list
of
of
megawatts
you
just
you
can
have
low
megawatt
days,
you're
going
to
have
full
megawatt
days,
and
so
yes,
there
are
days
where
we're
not
at
full
capacity.
But
we
do.
We
do
use
all
our
electricity
when
we
need
it.
E
A
E
That's
a
great
question:
Mr
chair,
we
are
looking
at
all
all
possibilities
and
opportunities
as
it
relates
to
different
markets
right,
so
Southwest
power
pool
is
one
you
know.
There's
a
there
are
lots
of
of
conversations
around
different
Regional
transmission
organizations
or
transmission
organizations,
the
rtos
and
what
would
work
best
for
our
markets,
whether
it's
day
ahead
or
or
working
around
the
West?
We,
our
goal
is
to
make
sure
we
provide
affordable
and
reliable
and
safe
power
for
all
of
our
all
of
our
customers,
and
so
I.
E
Think
from
what
I
understand
our
planning
team,
who
are
looking
through
through
through
at
they're,
looking
at
every
available
opportunity
to
ensure
that
our
Market
is
the
best
market,
so
so
that
we
can
provide
that
always
on
power.
I
recognize
that
within
our
own
system,
within
our
own
Pacific
Corp
system,
there
are
states
that
have
these
mandates
and
there
are
states
that
don't
that
believe
that
the
market
should
drive
should
drive
the
the
the
generation
that
we
should
work
towards
time
using
time,
transmission
and
Technology
to
to
make
these
terminations.
E
G
Chairman
yep
go
ahead,
so
Mr
Carter
back
to
my
question.
So
what's
the
benefit
to
Wyoming?
What
do
we
get
out
of
this.
G
Out
or
in
an
RTO
Southwest
power
pool
being
one
because
they've
already
produced
the
map
showing
the
expansion
and
the
requests
from
other
states
to
do
that,
yeah
I
mean
that's
benefit
to
to
this
state,
but.
E
E
I
think
the
goal
of
an
RTO,
no
I
mean
I'm,
not
an
expert
in
rtos,
but
in
the
goal
of
the
RTO
is
to
ensure
that
there
is
a
an
ability
to
to
create
as
much
transmission
as
possible
at
the
lowest
possible
cost,
or
that's
one
of
the
goals.
I
think
there
are
other
goals
stated
by
other
states
on
on
moving
some
of
some
political,
some
outside
political
forces
onto
States,
like
Utah,
Wyoming,
Idaho,
I,
think.
E
The
way
we
are
going
to
look
at
an
RTO
is
to
ensure
that
our
ability
to
produce
affordable
and
reliable
power
also
continue
to
build
as
much
transmission
as
possible,
won't
be
hampered.
So
what's
the
benefit
for
our
Wyoming
I,
don't
know,
I
can't
speak
to
the
benefit
to
Wyoming
I
think
we
aren't
not
going
to
as
we
look
at
potentially
joining
an
RTO
I
think
our
our
goal
will
be
to
ensure
that
we
can.
We
won't
move
away
from
our
our
long-standing
100
Year
partnership
with
Wyoming
on
those
things.
E
E
G
H
Yeah
go
ahead
represent.
Thank
you.
Mr
chairman
Mr
Carter
I've
had
a
chance
to
review
your
avoid
your
published
avoided
costs
for
the
next
number
of
years.
It
gives
me
a
kind
of
an
indication
what
you
foresee,
the
future
being
for
your
costs
of
generation
and
providing
power.
There's
a
hinge
point,
a
definite
hinge
point
in
the
year
2030
and
those
avoided
costs
become
exponential,
doubling
and
tripling
in
in
the
the
cost.
E
I'll
be
honest
with
you
Mr
chair,
I,
don't
know:
I
I
I'll
have
to
look
at
that
and
get
an
answer
back
to
you.
I
Mr,
chairman
I
have
a
question,
but
it's
not
a
great
question.
Okay,
this
map
shows
a
line
from
somewhere
in
Utah
to
Red.
Butte
looks
like
it's
all
Standalone,
but
I'm,
assuming
that's
all
connected
to
the
grid,
as
as
are
all
the
others
that
that
just
isn't
connected
to
the
South
Gateway
South
I
guess
is
all.
A
Mr
Carter,
we
one
we
appreciate
Rocky
Mountain
Power,
taking
the
time
to
go
through
the
questions
that
we
had
asked
appreciate
you
coming
here,
answering
our
questions
and
you
know
I'll
just
say
you
understand
the
frustration
of
most
of
this
committee.
A
Most
of
the
people
of
the
state
of
Wyoming
right,
Rocky,
Mountain
Power,
is
a
big
big
player
in
our
state,
always
been
a
big
you
know,
and
so
our
underlying
irritation-
and
this
was
where
these
questions
come
from
really
is
you
know
the
simple
fact
that
we
see
other
states
with
mandates
that
are
dictating
actions
that
you
really
don't
have
any
choice
but
to
follow,
but
have
really
detrimental
consequences
to
our
state,
and
so
that's
where
our
our
agitation
comes
from
and
I
appreciate
you
coming
in
and
trying
your
best
answer,
the
great
questions
and
the
regular
questions
well,.
E
Mr,
chair
I,
I
appreciate
that,
as
you
know,
prior
to
this
job,
I
I
was
Andrew
adviser
to
Governor
Cox
and
we
I'd
get
these
questions
a
lot.
I
remember
when
Oregon
passed
there,
you
know
decarbonization
by
date
and
I
called
my
counterpart
up
there
and
I
said:
what's
your
plan
to
get
there,
they
said.
E
Well,
we
don't
have
a
plan
and
they
were
just
throwing
a
date
against
the
wall
to
make
it
happen
and
what
I
appreciate
about
what
we're
trying
to
do,
rock
them
out
and
so
I
said
to
them
in
my
previous
role
like
well,
that's
no
plan
at
all.
That's
just
guess:
work
we'd
go
through
it
rock
my
power.
We
go
through
an
integrated
resource
plan.
We
try
and
make
it
work
to
ensure
our.
We
maintain
our
reliability
of
of
of
power.
E
As
you
know,
those
plans
are
updated
every
two
years.
Nothing
is
necessarily
set
in
stone.
It's
where
our
resources
are
now
where
we
hope
they
will
be
in
10,
15
20
years.
I
recognize
the
frustration
and
we're
here
we
continue
to
come.
We
continue
to
be
here
because
we
want
to
be
a
ongoing
partner.
We've
been
here
for
100
years.
We
plan
to
be
here
for
a
hundred
more,
if
not
longer,
and
so
anything
I
can
do
to
continue
to
both
answer
and
or
Dodge.
Your
questions,
I
will
I
will
do
you're.
J
Thank
you
Mr
chairman
once
again
committee
members,
my
name
is
Rick
Cason.
Before
we
get
too
far
further
into
the
to
the
questions
that
was
posed
by
the
committee,
two
things.
If
I
may
Mr
chairman
you,
you
asked
about
the
you
know:
Coal
Fire
plants
going
offline
and
what's
the
plans
type
thing,
one
of
the
things
that
Rocky
Mount
power
is
also
looking
at
and
I.
J
Think
we've
we've
talked
about
this
before
and
that's
transitioning
some
of
these
units,
possibly
to
natural
gas
and
trying
to
extend
the
life
of
these
units,
not
necessarily
each
power
plant,
because
there
are
different
or
number
of
units
at
the
power
plants
where
they
can
extend
that
life
economically
and
be
viable
for
our
customers
as
well.
For
that
reliability
that
we
always
like
to
talk
about
as
well,
so
we're
looking
at
different
types
of
transitions,
they're,
just
not
saying
they're
going
offline
at
a
certain
particular
date.
J
Those
are
plan,
dates
but
again,
subject
to
change
and
if
I
made
to
Senator
biteman's
question
with
regards
to
capacity
and
if
you
plug
in
the
electric
vehicles
and
all
that
type
thing
within
within
the
systems-
and
this
is
not
just
Rocky
Mountain
Power,
all
electric
utilities
part
participate
in
this-
they
do
have
planned
reserves
within
their
system,
for
example,
if
a
unit
acted
will
go
in
our
own
backyard
right
here
that
Dave
Johnson's
went
offline.
J
We
need
that
backup
power
of
those
reserves
or
go
to
the
market
to
to
make
sure
that
we're
meeting
our
customers
needs
So
within
the
planning
there.
There
are
planned
reserves
in
a
percentage
basis
and
I,
don't
know
if
that
helps
answer
the
question
or
not,
but
there
are
efforts
to
make
sure
that
we
do
meet
those
customer
needs.
I
Mr
chairman,
thank
you
that
was
my
question.
I
had
on
number
five
there.
The
answer
was
that
and
convert
existing
generating
resources,
rather
than
retire
or
liquidate
assets
and
I
was
I
was
thinking
natural
gas,
but
maybe
we
could
convert
to
hydrogen
also.
Is
it?
Is
that
open,
still
or
yeah?
The
only
thing
we
do
is
natural
gas,
and
what
would
be
the
reason
to
keep
those
open
with
natural
gas
as
opposed
to
Coal?
Is
it?
Is
it
easier
to
comply?
Is
that
some
of
the
reasons
yeah?
That's
a.
E
That's
that's
an
interesting
question:
I'm,
not
it's
great!
It's
also
great
question:
it's
an
old
political
tool
of
buying
Time,
by
saying
words.
First
before
answering
your
question,
you
know,
as
we
mentioned
in
the
answer
to
five
hydrogen
of
course,
is
on
the
table.
We
are
interested
in
all
of
the
above
and
are
committed
to
the
all
of
the
above
strategy
that
this
state
has
natural
gas.
E
We've
mentioned
at
times
this
new
EPA
proposed
rule
the
ozone
transport
rule
or
OTR,
sometimes
known
as
good
neighbor.
We
don't
like
calling
it
a
good
neighbor
rule,
because
it's
actually
not
about
that.
E
What
that
rule
says
is
that
emissions
from
Wyoming
and
Utah
ozone,
emissions
or
precursors
to
Ozone
emissions
coming
out
of
our
coal
plants
are
causing
air
quality
sensors
in
Denver
to
to
surpass
their
limited
value,
and
thus
the
EPA
is
saying
to
Wyoming
and
Utah
that,
because
of
that,
you
need
to
find
a
way
to
reduce
your
precursors
to
Ozone
your
knocks
emissions.
E
E
We
have
we've
been
working
very
closely
with
Governor
Gordon's
team,
because
one
we
believe
the
methodology
is
bad.
Two
we
recognize
that
to
comply
within
that
timeline
is
impossible.
Now.
Luckily,
we
already
have
scr
on
Bridger,
but
we
don't
on
our
other
units,
our
other
coal
units
and
putting
scr
is
not
only
very
expensive
but
based
on
our
analysis,
we
see
that
there
are
about
10
units,
so
we'd
have
to
put
scr
on
amongst
our
system
and
there's
enough
supply
chain
and
Workforce
to
do
one,
and
so
that
would
accelerate
closure.
E
Forced
Upon
Us
by
the
EPA
and
not
enough
time
to
build
new
generation
units,
so
we
would
we're
in
we're
having
some
trouble
we've
had.
We
recognize
where
the
the
Wyoming
DEQ
has
put
in
some
very
strong
comments.
We
put
in
some
very
strong
comments.
Utah
DEQ
has
also
put
in
some
very
strong
comments
and
we're
in
the
process
of
having
some
really
good.
Conversation
well,
I
want
to
say
good
we're
having
some
conversations
with
the
EPA.
E
Now
we
anticipate
that
rule
to
come
final
end
of
this
year,
beginning
of
next
we're
not
sure
what
it'll
say,
we're
hopeful
that
they
will
fix
their
methodology,
we're
hopeful
they
might
change
their
their
timeline.
But
we
have
one
thing
that
we
keep
saying
is
we
have
a
plan?
We
have
a
plan
to
continue
to
provide
reliable
energy
throughout
the
West.
What
what
the
EPA
is
saying
to
us
is
we
don't
care
about
your
plan?
We
just
want
you
to
close
because
of
One
sensor
in
Denver.
E
So
when
we
look
at
fuel
transitions,
hydrogen
natural
gas,
all
of
those
things-
it's
has
to
do
with
some
of
the
external
Washington
DC
pressures
that
we're
that
we're
are
being
pushed
upon
us
see.
K
Part
of
the
original
question
was
related
to
hydrogen
as
an
alternative
energy
source
and
I.
Just
wanted
to
check
in
on
this
I,
don't
see
how
you
would
use
hydrogen
as
a
source
to
replace
natural
gas
or
coal
I,
see
where
there's
good
business
model
around
producing
hydrogen
for
other
purposes
and
uses.
But
the
suggestion
or
the
implication
with
everything
on
the
table
is
that
you
would
potentially
use
hydrogen
as
a
source
can.
K
Can
you
follow
up,
then
I'd
like
more
detail?
It
makes
no,
it
makes
no
sense
to
me
in
the
context
of
any
Western
energy
production,
so
I
I'd
be
very
curious
to
see
how
how
Rocky
and
Pacific
Corp
are
looking
at
that
as
a
source
of
energy,
not
just
as
a
commodity
for
temporary
production
stores.
Happily,.
A
E
It's
like
to
pre-fight,
yeah,
absolutely
yeah,
I
figure.
You
know
we're
the
opening
act
in
Bon,
jovi'll,
follow
us
and
we've
got
got
something
good
for
you
all
right.
Just.
E
The
capture
so
look,
we
we
so
in
compliance
with
with
state
law,
as
well
as
a
a
a
settlement
agreement
on
Regional
Haze.
We
will,
we
will
be
releasing
our
RFP
we
had
to.
We
need
to
release
RFP
by
the
end
of
the
year,
RFP
for
Dave
Johnson's
unit,
4
and
Jim
bridger's
unit.
Three,
so
it'll
be
two
different
rfps.
They
will
be
released.
We
are
confident
and
it's
on
track
to
be
released
on
Tuesday.
E
We
were
hoping
to
release
them
last
week,
but
because
of
this
OTR
issue
and
scr,
we
pushed
it
back,
we
bought.
We
pushed
it
back
until
November
1st,
still
two
months
ahead
of
of
the
statutory
deadline.
The
goal
there
is
the
objective:
the
carbon
capture
RFP,
is
not
only
to
comply
with
HP
200
and
additional
regular
regulations,
but
it's
also
to
we
want
to
be
able
to
demonstrate
that
ccus
can
work
and
will
be
technically
and
economically
feasible,
and
we
will
then
review
those
into
February
or
the
sorry.
E
The
the
bidders
will
have
till
February
to
apply
we're
cutting
our
our
review
process
short.
We
hope
to
be
able
to
let
organizations
and
companies
know
that
that
they'll
they
have
the
chance
to
move
forward
by
by
early
spring.
Well
Springtime.
What
I'll
tell
you
this
is
that,
since
we've
last
met
the
passage
of
the
IRA,
the
the
inflation
reduction
acts
that
does
not
reduce
inflation
at
all,
but
you
know
it's
fun.
E
To
name
stuff,
does
allow
for
more
time
for
tax
credits
for
ccos,
which
has
put
ccus
given
CC
us
a
bit
of
a
leg
up
and
is
quite
exciting
for
this
process.
It
also
creates
a
very
competitive
market,
not
just
for
Wyoming
but
throughout
the
west,
and
so
what
we're
we
believe
is
that,
because
of
HTTP
200,
we
have
a
very
competitive
case
to
be
made
about
our
units
here
in
Wyoming,
and
as
we
write
this
RFP
as
we
look
at
what
people
can
organizations
can
be
doing
we're
confident.
E
We've
got
some
pretty
big
players
that
are
looking
to
put
down
stakes
and
be
and
participate
in
our
RFP
and,
and
so
we're
excited
to
get
that
out
to
the
market,
and
we're
also
excited
to
see
based
on
those
companies
that
have
expressed
interest.
What
will
come
back
to
us
and
then
hopefully
expand
the
life
of
some
of
these
units.
K
Thank
you,
Mr
I'm
curious
about
tentative
or
preliminary
numbers
on
projected
budget
for
the
beginning
of
the
project.
How
that
ends
up
and
and
part
of
this
is
statutory.
How
that
ends
up
getting
paid
for
how
that
affects
the
the
rate
payer
can
can
you
walk
us
through?
K
E
Yeah
I
have
to
be
Senator
Mr,
chair,
you're,
right,
I
I
want
to
be
careful
as
to
not
get
too
out
far
out
in
front
of
what
we
anticipate
from
the
RFP,
because
we
we
recognize
that
everybody
will
be
different.
Every
opportunity
will
be
different
and
you
know
what
we
do
believe
is
that
this
will
be
expensive
and
and
how
we
work.
Who
is
who
part
of
sorry?
E
Let
me
gather
my
thoughts.
Our
our
goal
will
be
to
ensure
that
that
those
providing
application
through
the
RFP
are
capitalized
and
that
they
have
resources
available
to
be
financially
viable
within
this
process.
E
I
cannot
speak
today
on
how
any
additional
costs
that
we
incur
will
be
will
be
passed
along
I,
don't
I,
don't
want
to
get
ahead
of
any
conversations
that
might
be
made
within
our
our
system
or
to
our
Regulators,
but
I
do
know
that
being
fully
capitalized
is
something
that
will
be
important
within
the
RFP
and
happy
to
come
back
to
you
with
those
answers
at
a
future
date.
Mr.
K
Chairman
well,
I
think
it's
important
for
us
to
hear
real
numbers
honestly.
When
we
just
hear
the
words
it's
expensive,
it
becomes
vague
and
nebulous,
and
we
can
all
assign
a
value
to
that.
And
then
we
think
that
somehow
by
saying
that
it's
going
to
be
capitalized,
that
means
that
it's
going
to
be
externally
paid
for
I.
Think
one
of
the
concerns
of
this
project
and
process
along
the
way
is
not
a
concern
with
CC
us
I.
K
Think
everybody
here
likes
CC
us
it's
the
idea
of
of
how
does
this
particular
approach
to
implementing
CC
us
affect
the
rate
payers
and
affect
our
utility
structure
in
the
state,
and
one
of
the
challenges
has
been
exactly
this
I
I
would
really
like
to
know
the
number
numbers
that
go
along
with
it
and
and
I
guess.
What
we
probably
need,
then,
is
the
RFP
responses
and
then
a
report
back
from
that.
So
what
I'll
ask
is
once
we
see
that
I'd
appreciate
it.
K
If,
on
the
next
presentation,
we
have
very
specific
numbers
and
specific
implications
to
rate
payers
associated
with
those
numbers
as
we're
looking
at
RFP
responses,
because
this
is
this-
is
a
first
of
its
kind.
This
is
a
pretty
big
deal
and
there
there
have
been
significant
concerns
related
to
how
this
would
affect
rate
payers
going
forward
with
this
project.
So
I
understand
that
it
doesn't
look
like
that's
available
right
now,
but
I
think
it's
something
that
we
should
hear
as
a
committee.
Thank
you
happy.
A
Let
me
one
is
I'm
very
pleased
that
we're
not
now
saying
we
can't
do
CC
our
carbon
capture,
sequestration
utilization,
because
it'll
kill
your.
You
know
the
scare
tactic
it'll
make
rates,
go
up
that
we're
finding
ways
to
make
it
happen
to
me,
that's
a
step
forward
with
it
and
I.
Think
for
Center
rothas
is
is
as
we
as
we
see
the
plans
come
together.
A
J
J
I
made
to
try
to
not
answer
Senator
rothfuss's
question,
but
just
kind
of
give
an
idea.
Our
analysis
shows
that
on
a
per
unit
basis,
in
let's
say
how
did
the
Dave
Johnston
unit,
what
number
four
goes
in
each
unit
is
about
for
cc.
Us
is
about
one
billion
dollars
per
unit.
Okay,
so,
needless
to
say,
that's
a
staggering
amount
of
money.
J
That's
what
some
of
the
requests
for
proposal
analysis
will
provide
in
dealing
with
those
that
are
responding
to
that
is
who's
going
to
own
it
who's
going
to
operate
it.
You
know
all
of
those
things
will
come
out
and
of
course,
as
we
know,
at
the
end
of
the
day
for
a
regulated
utility
will
be
in
front
of
the
Public
Service
Commission
to
to
ferret
out
how
that
impact
is
going
to
be
for
the
customer.
J
So
there's
a
lot
of
work
to
be
done,
but
we
do
have
it
noted
here
and
be
responsive
to
your
inquiry
and
Mr
chairman
if
I
also
May
add
on
to
what
Mr
Carter
has
said
about
the
the
the
OTR
and
the
RFP
delay
right
there.
One
of
the
things
we
wanted
to
make
sure
is
absolutely
full
compliance,
not
with
only
the
state
requirements,
House,
Bill
200,
but
also
with
this
to
OTR
and
to
make
sure
when
the
RFP
is
issued.
That
then
the
responders
also
are
in
compliance
with
the
OTR.
J
So
that
there's
no
back
and
forth
and
delaying
the
analysis
so
try
to
make
this
as
efficient
as
possible
to
get
to
decision
making
time
to
make
sure
we
have
the
RFP
clear
as
far
as
what
the
responders
responsibilities
are
going
to
be
as
well
so
I
think
that's
a
another
element
or
that
not
think
that
is
another
element
why
it
was
delayed.
A
couple
of
weeks
for
issuance
to
the
interested
parties
chairman.
K
Quickfall
yeah
go
ahead.
Thank
you.
So
one
thing
I
did
want
to
follow
up
on
because
I
I
haven't
heard
any
any
additional
information.
I
know
that
this
legislation
was
structured
such
that
the
state
of
Wyoming
would
effectively
go
It
Alone
on
the
on
the
project
in
costs
conceptually
but
I,
don't
think
it
means
we
have
to
I.
Think
there
there
is
the
opportunity
to
share
in
with
other
states
if
other
states
wanted
to
participate
through
the
six-state
agreement.
K
Have
any
other
states
expressed
any
interest
in
participating,
or
does
it
look
like
at
this
point?
We're
still
going
it
alone,
where
the
state
of
Wyoming
one
way
or
another
would
be
responsible
for
the
full
cost
of
ccus.
E
You
know
that's
a
at
this
point.
We
have
not
had
from
what
I
from
what
I
know.
At
this
point,
we
haven't
had
the
conversation
about
shared
costs,
but
what
we
amongst
our
whole
system
we
do
need
to
as
we
the
benefit
of
this
RFP
process
is
that
it
coincides
with
our
IRP,
which
allows
us
to
then
look
amongst
our
six
different
Regulators,
not
just
Wyoming,
but
all
six
Regulators
to
say,
okay,
this
is
what
we're
seeing
this
is
the
cost.
Could
these
costs
be
spread
throughout?
E
So
we
have
not
from
what
I
know.
We
have
not
heard
from
our
other
Regulators,
but
we
have-
and
we
have
not
presented
it
to
our
other
Regulators,
but
we
we
do
need
to
look
and
better
understand
what
the
project
will
look
like
before
we
can
take
it
that
far.
K
One
yeah
so
is
the
plan.
Then
RFP
gets
some
interest,
understand
kind
of
the
scope
of
what
Solutions
might
be,
and
then
you
will
take
it
to
the
other
states
to
see
if
they
have
interest
in
Sharing
in
cost
and
project,
or
is
it
more
consistent
with
kind
of
the
original
draft
which
is
largely
in-house
at.
A
I
Chairman
those
kind
of
PSC
questions
that
that
you'll
be
answering
for
the
PSC
I'm
sure
your
RFP.
Actually,
somebody
could
bid
that
with
putting
up
the
money
themselves
for
doing
that
carbon
capture
off
your
plant
and
there
would
not
be
any
rate
issue
at
all.
Would
there
and
the
other
thing
is
if,
if
they,
if
they
do
take
that
off,
can
they
send
that
CO2
anywhere
to
an
eori
in
Colorado
or
New
Mexico
or
wherever,
or
do
they
have
to
sequester
every
bit
of
it?
We're.
E
Asking
within
the
RFP
and
we're
happy
to
send
a
copy
of
the
RFP
to
remember
this
committee
once
it
once
it
goes,
live
what
we're
asking
is
people
come
to
us
with
a
full
solution
right,
so
a
capture
company
comes
with
the
sequestration
company
get
together,
create
your
own
bid.
They'll
you'll
see
this
within
the
RFB,
and
so,
if
you,
if
you
are
just
a
capture
company,
go
out
and
find
a
place
to
to
sequester
utilize
find
come
to
us
with
a
a
wholesale
solution
for
what
you
want
to
do.
E
I
You're
good
Mr
chairman
so
with
the
RFP,
require
that
you
bid
on
Dave
Johnson
number
four
and
Bridger
three
and
four.
Or
could
you
just
bid
on
one
location
where.
A
Okay,
we'll
oh
go
ahead,
represent.
H
E
We
got
five
other
commissions
that
we
have
we'd
have
to
have
these
conversations
with
and
figure
out
a
way
to
to
spread
the
potentially
spread
the
costs
around
so
I'm.
What
I'm
saying
is
we
have
yet
to
have
those
conversations.
H
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman,
so
we're
building
a
tremendous
amount
of
transmission
lines,
big
big
transmission
lines
to
take
this
power
out
of
state.
H
E
Well,
I
mean
I,
quantify
I,
think
I
Quantified
it
in
in
83
of
the
power
that
we
generate
here
goes
to
other
places
or,
as
your
question
is,
can
I
tell
you
which
state
it
goes
to
to
whom,
which
date
is
that
the
question.
H
Mike,
my
question
is:
do
you
have
a
meter
that
we
could
impose
an
impo
export
tax
on
as
it
crosses
state
lines,
I?
Don't
care
which
state
it
goes
to,
but
to
recoup
some
of
these
costs
of
carbon
capture
that
Wyoming
is
expected
to
put
by
themselves.
We
should
somehow
be
able
to
pass
that
on
to
our
exported
energy,
which
is
86
of
what
we
generate.
I
E
I
mean
look,
I,
appreciate,
I,
appreciate
your
question
and
I.
Don't
think
I
have
a
good
answer
for
you.
I
will
tell
you.
Is
there
we
do
there's
a
broader
picture
on
on
the
on
the
taxes
that
we
provide
to
the
state
as
well.
I,
I,
I,
don't
believe
I
I
can
or
will
comment
now
on.
The
ability
of
the
state
of
Wyoming
may
or
may
not
have
to
provide
an
export
text
to
power.
I
think
that
that's
a
much
larger
policy
question
that
I
cannot
answer
today.
F
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman
I,
guess.
My
question
goes
back
to
the
overall
philosophical
issue:
is
the
regulated
utility
model
broken
because
is
it
even
salvageable?
At
this
point,
we
as
the
state
of
Wyoming,
allow
you
guys
to
be
in
a
monopoly
in
exchange
for
that
Monopoly
we're
supposed
to
get
affordable,
reliable
energy
electricity
that
you
guys
Supply
to
us.
Now
we
have
States
like
California,
dictating
our
energy
policy
driving
up
our
cost,
eroding
our
reliability
and
there's
nothing.
F
E
Well,
look
I'll!
Let
an
upcoming
witness
former
commissioner
Tony
Clark
talk
about
the
positives
and
negatives
of
deregulation
and
he's
got
a
great
perspective
on
that
as
he
he
was
with
Burke
I
will
tell
you
this
Wyoming
continues
to
maintain
low-cost
power.
F
F
A
Thank
you
all
right.
We
appreciate
it
we'll
just
find
out
how
important
it
is
for
Grandma
to
have
an
air
conditioner
with
green
energy
in
about
five
to
six
years.
Won't
we
for
sure.
A
Mr
Bush
Mr,
Clark
I
might
want
to
do
a
quick
Mr
Fuller
come
up,
do
a
quick
flyover
on
the
two
draft
bills
and
then
move
into
in
Mr,
Clark's
presentation
and
then
comments
from
the
other
folks
in
the
audience.
So.
M
Brian,
are
you?
Can
you
do
that
for
us
yeah,
you
bet
Mr,
chairman,
okay,
so
I
will
start
with
23
lso
50
working
draft
0.5
industrial
power
zones
is
2-02
on
the
online
meeting
materials.
This
draft
in
large
part,
is
based
on
2022
Senate
file
71.,
and
what
this
draft
does
is
it
would
authorize
the
creation
of
industrial
power
zones
on
Parcels
of
state
land,
where
power
generation
and
consumption
within
that
designated
industrial
power
Zone
would
be
exempt
from
rate
regulation
and
service
territory
requirements
for
electrical
service.
M
So
the
way
the
concept
would
work
is
either
a
board
of
County,
Commissioners
or
a
project
proponent.
Can
a
port
can
approach
a
board
of
County
Commissioners
would
propose
to
the
board
of
land
Commissioners
that
a
particular
that
at
least
one
state
land
parcel
would
be
eligible
to
be
an
industrial
power
Zone
that
would
go
to
the
board
of
land
Commissioners,
which
would
then
review
review
that
proposed
power
Zone.
M
There
would
be
an
analysis
from
the
Public
Service
Commission
on
the
potential
impact
of
that
industrial
power
Zone
would
have
on
retail
customers,
and
then
the
board
can
consider
any
other
information
in
approving
one
of
these
zones.
Once
that
zone
is
approved
by
the
board
of
land
Commissioners,
then
the
provisions
of
title
37,
which
concern
Public
Utilities,
would
would
not
apply
as
insofar
as
they
deal
with
rate
regulation
and
service
territory
requirements.
So
long
as
the
power
for
that
zone.
M
The
customer
who
is
in
that
zone
receiving
power
receives
and
consumes
the
power
entirely
within
the
industrial
power
Zone.
The
power
use
is
only
for
commercial
or
industrial
use
and
that
electricity
is
not
replacing
electrical
service
that
existed
before
the
approval
of
the
industrial
power
zone.
So
Mr
chairman,
that's
in
a
nutshell,
23
lso,
50.,
okay,.
K
Mr
and
again,
we've
talked
about
this
before,
but
the
idea
is
to
have
a
very
narrow
solution
that
meets
the
interests
of
large-scale
projects
of
virtually
any
type
without
having
a
comprehensive
deregulation.
We'll
hear
about
the
concerns
of
other
states.
Deregulating
this
was
a
means
of
addressing
that
where
it
would
be
new
load
in
a
special,
highly
scrutinized,
Zone,
and
only
under
those
conditions.
Would
you
have
the
flexibility
to
provide
Power?
K
You
can
think
about
this
for
hydrogen
generation
projects
for
any
petrochemical
synthesis
project,
anything
that
requires
a
large
amount
of
power
and
where
it
would
be
favorable
to
have
a
business
model
where
you
had
either
a
direct
purchase
agreement
or
even
had
a
power
producer
within
the
zone
that
could
then
directly
sell
to
Consumers
within
the
Zone
by
creating
effectively
an
island
of
deregulation
within
the
rest
of
the
regulated
utility
structure
and
then
having
the
PSC
scrutinize
to
see
whether
it
would
actually
impact
the
regulated
consumers.
M
Yep
so
working
draft,
seven
23l,
so
52
direct
electric
service
utility
agreements,
so
this
draft
would
allow
any
person
to
enter
into
it
a
direct
service
agreement
with
with
any
electric
consumer
in
Wyoming
for
the
provision
of
electric
service
to
that
consumer
with
some
conditions
so
that
sale
of
electricity
can't
use
any
transmission
infrastructure,
that's
regulated
by
the
Public
Service
Commission,
or
if
the
person
selling
the
electricity
is
a
public
utility
it
can,
it
can
use
its
existing
transmission
infrastructure
so
long
as
the
agreement
would
account
or
charge
separately
for
that
consumer
if
the
infrastructure
was
constructed
partially
or
entirely
with
ratepayer
funds
and
the
agreement
doesn't
result
in
any
reduction
in
performance,
reliability
or
base
load
capacity
for
for
the
electric
consumers.
M
These
agreements
once
entered
into
would
then
be
similar
to
the
previous
Bill
exempt
from
the
rate
requirement
and
service
territory
requirements
for
for
title
37
for
Public,
Utilities,
okay,.
M
Yep
so
so
Mr
chairman
the
bill
would
require
if,
if
a
electric
utility
is
the
entity
entering
into
an
agreement
with
the
consumer,
the
bill
draft
would
require
the
Public
Service
Commission
to
approve
that
agreement.
So
the
staff
comment
on
page
four
just
notes:
potential
additional
considerations
or
requirements
that
the
Public
Service
Commission
would
need
to
consider
before
or
or
as
a
condition
to
approving
those
agreements,
so
additional
cost
to
rate
payers
over
building
adverse
impacts
on
current
infrastructure.
A
A
M
And
and
then
Mr
chairman,
the
staff
comment
on
page
five.
The
language
in
this
bill
is
Loosely,
based
on
current
statutes
concerning
electric
service
agreements,
and
so
the
provisions
there,
our
Provisions,
applying
to
those
agreements
but
are
not
included
in
this
draft,
and
so
the
question
there
would
be.
Would
the
committee
want
this
language
which
concerns
providing
benefits
to
other
customers
without
future
or
additional
costs?
M
Revenue
considerations
as
well
as
part
of
that
agreement.
The
question
there
would
be
if
the
committee
wants
to
include
those
as
well:
okay,
Senator.
K
Mr,
chairman
I'll,
just
note:
I
had
this
drafted
and
worked
with
Mr
Fuller,
and
the
draft
does
exactly
what
we
discussed
at
previous
meetings
and-
and
this
was
effectively
the
request
of
the
Power
consuming
industry
group
that
we've
heard
from
in
the
past
as
a
a
before
the
meter
approach.
K
Honestly
I
do
see
problems
with
this
approach,
but
I
wanted
to
make
sure
that
it
was
available
for
discussion,
because
it
was
a
topic
of
significant
discussion
and
interest
at
the
previous
meeting.
So
if
we're
going
to
work
this,
this
is
something
that
should
be
in
front
of
us.
K
We'll
probably
hear
some
concerns
raised
about
the
idea
of
this
allowing
effectively
poaching
for
existing
load,
and
so
you
create
either
a
consequence
of
potential
unfair
competition.
If
you
disallow
one
utility
to
have
a
reduced,
excuse
me
one
consumer,
to
have
reduced
rate
relative
to
another
and
then
to
the
extent
that
the
regulated
utility
load
is
not
particularly
Dynamic.
This
can
lead
to
challenges
and
and
problems
with
with
costs
and
and
rate
payments,
particularly
I,
think
for
our
co-ops
would
struggle
with
some
of
the
challenges.
Yeah
I,
those.
K
Mr
chairman
they're
all
valid
concerns,
but
it
was.
It
was
exactly
what
was
raised
as
a
proposal
as
an
alternative
to
the
industrial
power
zones
and
I
I
think
it
should
be
on
the
table
and,
honestly
it's
it's
the
reason
the
industrial
power
zones
is
drafted
the
way
it's
drafted,
it's
on
the
table
for
now
it's
on
the
table
for
now.
Okay,.
N
David
Bush
Black,
Hills
Energy
here
in
Wyoming
with
me
today
is
Tony.
Clark
Tony
has
met
some
of
you
last
night
and
this
morning
he
served
on
the
Federal
Federal
Energy
Regulatory
Commission
ferc,
for
about
four
and
a
half
years
prior
to
that
he
was
chairman
of
the
North
Dakota
Public
Service
Commission
and
a
North
Dakota
legislator.
So
he's
got
a
broad
experience
with
the
system
and
and
the
electricity
and
in
general,
and
he
appears
today
on
behalf
of
eei
Edison
Electric
Institute,
which
is
kind
of
the
national
group
for
investor-owned
utilities.
N
O
Well,
thank
you.
Thank
you.
Mr
chairman,
it's
a
particular
pleasure
to
be
before
this
Committee
in
in
Wyoming.
Today
and
and
listening
to
your
discussions.
It
reminds
me
a
lot
of
Home
in
North
Dakota,
because
you're
dealing
with
a
lot
of
the
same
issues,
we
do
in
fact,
I've
often
found
a
fair
amount
of
kinship
in
policy
makers
between
my
home
state
and
Wyoming,
because
we
deal
with
so
many
of
the
similar
issues
being
States
largely
dependent
on
the
AG
production,
agriculture,
Farm,
Ranch
and
and
energy
economies.
O
So
it's
it's
a
lot
of
the
similar
issues,
we're
Further
Along
on
our
Mountain
removal
project
than
than
you
all
are,
but
so
you've
got
a
little
bit
of
work
to
do
there,
but
but
otherwise
lots
of
lots
of
issues
that
are
that
are
so
similar.
I
feel
like
this
issue
of
deregulation
is
one
that
I've
sort
of
lived
with
for
about
25
years
or
more
in
over
the
time
that
I've
been
involved
in
in
public
service.
O
It's
a
high
risk
low
reward
proposition,
and
the
reason
is
because
you
already
have
some
of
the
most
affordable
rates
in
the
country
as
it
is
today.
So
it
becomes
an
issue
of
if
things
are
generally
working,
pretty
well
may
not
make
sense
to
fix
something
that
that
isn't
broken
going
through
the
slide
deck,
and
hopefully
this
will
explain
why
I
would
say
that
I
can
speak
individually,
I've
reviewed
each
of
the
bills
and
I'm
happy
to
do
that
through
q.
O
A
my
slide,
deck
is
more
generally
talking
about
deregulation
and
restructuring
policy
in
the
U.S
and
and
in
different
ways
would
apply
to
to
either
of
the
bills.
So
moving
to
the
first
slide,
where
you
see
a
picture
of
the
United
States
more
than
two
decades
now
after
the
initial
wave
of
restructuring,
Most
states
still
regulate
their
utilities.
O
Exactly
like
the
state
of
Wyoming
does
whether
they're
inside
an
organized
market
like
an
RTO
or
whether
they're
outside
of
a
an
organized
Market,
which
is
called
the
bilateral
Market
regions
of
the
country
like
Wyoming
Most
states,
have
retained
the
the
traditional
model.
The
way
that
I've
broken
this
down
and
you'll
see
different
slides
and
some
presenters
might
have
a
few
different
states
shaded
differently
than
I
do
but
I.
O
Think,
generally
speaking,
this
would
be
accepted
is
is
how
states
regulate
utilities,
the
darkest
states
there
are
all
the
fully
regulated
States
like
Wyoming,
it's
a
little
bit
hard
to
read,
but
deregulated
states
are
primarily
in
the
Northeast
U.S
and
then
Texas,
and
then
what
I
list
is.
Hybrid
states
are
states
that
in
some
way
or
another,
are
may
have
primarily
vertically
integrated
regulated
utilities,
but
have
some
sort
of
exceptions
and
and
off
ramps.
O
To
that
and
we'll
talk
about
some
of
those,
the
takeaway
from
this
is
that
the
states
that
tended
to
deregulate
were
all
of
the
highest
cost
States
and
they
did
so
because
they
figured
well.
Let's
try
something
else.
What
we've
got
now
isn't
working
terribly
well
for
us,
but
the
after
25
years
of
experience,
we
see
that
it
really
hasn't
changed
much
for
those
states
that
that
did
happen
to
deregulate.
O
They
were
the
highest
cost
States
going
into
deregulation,
they're
still
the
highest
cost
States
today,
and
that
brings
us
to
the
next
slide,
where
I've
just
outlined
here,
using
eia
data,
highest
and
least
cost
states
in
the
U.S
you'll
see
that
of
the
10
highest
cost
States.
This
is
happens
to
be
of
June,
but
I.
Think
if
you
pick
any
given
month,
it
would
be
a
relatively
similar
chart
to
this
of
the
10
highest
cost.
States.
O
O
They
still
have
relatively
high
cost
rates,
not
surprising
for
a
lot
of
reasons.
New
England
has
high
cost
electric
rates,
but
even
amongst
its
region,
it's
the
lowest
cost
among
those
other
deregulated
states
in
the
New
England
region,
Wyoming
on
average
is
45th
in
the
country
in
terms
of
of
costs.
O
Mr
chairman
this,
this
graph
here
is
residential
rates,
correct
in
the
following
slides
I'll
break
that
down
Wyoming
average
versus
other
states
and
we'll
include
a
breakout
of
industrial,
commercial
and
residentiality,
which.
A
For
some
of
us,
the
industrial
rates
are
been
a
concern
in
Wyoming,
especially
with
our
oil
and
gas
industry.
Understood.
Thank
you.
Go
ahead,
representative
West,
I
think.
P
P
My
I'm
a
little
worried.
This
might
be
a
little
bit
of
apples
and
oranges.
Comparison
because
I
suspect
haven't
confirmed
it,
but
I
suspect
these
are
the
states
again
California
Connecticut
Massachusetts
Maine,
Rhode
Island.
They
have
some
of
the
most
stringent
and
most
costly
renewable
energy
standards
as
well,
which
of
course,
can
incur
a
lot
of
costs
in
their
grid
system.
Is
that
am
I
am
I
wrong
in
that.
O
Mr,
chairman
and
representative
I,
think
it's
a
combination
of
issues.
Part
of
it
is
exactly
as
you
suggest
there
are
states
in
the
country
that
have
adopted
very
stringent
environmental
regulations.
In
addition,
the
Northeast
is
just
a
resource
poor
part
of
the
country.
They
don't
they're,
actually
very
close
to
a
lot
of
low-cost
natural
gas
they've
chosen
not
to
access
that
by
blocking
pipelines,
but
part
of
it
is,
as
I
indicated
they
were
the
highest
cost
States
going
in
I.
Think
as
a
policy
maker.
O
Looking
at
the
empirical
evidence,
though,
is
what
you
would
expect
is.
If
deregulation
worked,
then
something
would
have
changed
in
the
intervening
years
and
maybe
they
would
have
come
closer
down
to
where
the
regulated
states
are.
It's
just
never
happened.
They
they
were
the
highest
cost.
They
continued
to
be
the
highest
cost,
and
even
academic
studies
that
have
been
done
have
indicated
that
deregulation
really
didn't
do
much
to
drive
costs
lower,
which
is
what
they
were
hoping
would
happen.
P
Follow-Up
Mr
chairman
go
ahead.
Mr,
Clark
and
I
appreciate
that,
but
I
think
is
it
more
of
a
fair
conclusion
to
say:
maybe
it's
more
nuanced
than
just
saying:
deregulation
does
not
does
or
does
not
lower
cost
because,
as
you
say
in
some
of
these
states,
you
know
the
Marcellus
is
is
right
there
in
the
Northeast
and
obviously
they
are
not
very
prone
to
tap
into
that
which
of
course
could
really
help
lower
some
of
your
utility
costs.
O
Chairman
and
representative
there's
always
a
bit
of
nuance
in
the
energy
space,
but
I
would
say
in
in
general,
deregulation
has
not
lowered
rates
and
and
I
would
look
at
a
state
like
Texas,
for
example.
So
in
Texas,
not
all
of
the
state
is
deregulated.
Part
of
the
state
is
under
traditional
regulation
in
the
Panhandle
and
in
East,
Texas
and
sort
of
down
towards
New
Mexico
and
most
of
the
state
which
is
contained
within
ercot.
Its
own
grid
is
deregulated.
O
If
you
look
at
even
rates
within
Texas
itself,
the
the
regulated
portions
of
Texas
have
always
had
rates
below
the
deregulated
portion
of
Texas
those
rates
sort
of
narrowed
in
recent
years,
but
now
with
high
cost
natural
gas,
what
I
in
the
last
you
know
18
months
I,
would
suspect.
That's
going
to
again
that
Gap
is
going
to
widen
out,
and
so
you
would
have
expected
that
if,
if
deregulation
was
working
within
Texas
you'd
be
able
to
sort
of
point
to
those
deregulated
rates
actually
crossing
over
and
being
cheaper
than
regulated
rates.
K
Go
ahead
and
Mr
Clark
I
know
that
you're
getting
into
the
the
industrial
side
of
things
in
a
moment,
but
I
did
just
want
to
emphasize
that
a
lot
of
the
concern
here
is,
at
least
in
from
my
perspective,
is:
is
large
power,
load
projects
and
and
location
of
of
companies
that
have
tremendous
power
load
demands
and
their
ability
to
be
flexible.
K
K
Are
they
locating
themselves
in
the
deregulated
areas
which
would
be
my
suspicion
or
I
would
be
very
interested
to
know
if
there's
a
tremendous
draw
to
the
portions
of
Texas
that
are
regulated
at
this
point
in
time
and
they're
avoiding
the
deregulated
areas
which
I
would
find
counter-intuitive
but
would
be
very
interesting.
Do
you
have
any
insight
into
that
and
if,
if,
if
so
I'd
love
to
hear
it.
O
Mr,
chairman
and
and
Senator
that's
a
great
question
the,
and
what
I
have
most
of
you
is
probably
anecdotal
sort
of
information
on
it,
as
opposed
to
a
hard
study
or
data.
But
I
can
probably
make
some
educated
guesses
in
terms
of
where
the
large
industrial
load
is
is
located
in
Texas.
A
lot
of
it
tends
to
be
along
the
Gulf
Coast
and
it
would
actually
be
split
between
deregulated
portions
and
and
regulated
portions.
O
A
lot
of
the
that
that
Gulf
Coast
petrochemical
complex
is
in
the
regulated
section
of
Texas
in
the
Entergy
system,
which
is
that
East,
Texas
and
and
then
a
fair
amount
is
just
on
the
other
side
kind
of
West
of
of
Houston.
So
I
don't
know
that
one
system
or
another
is
driving
that
I've
heard
anecdotally
and
is
sort
of
not
attributable
to
any
particular
producer.
O
But
especially
in
times
like
this,
where
you
have
relatively
High
natural
gas
prices
driving
the
market,
they
tend
to
be
much
better
off
in
the
regulated
portions
of
Texas,
because
the
the
costs
are
much
more
predictable,
they're,
less
predictable,
more
volatile
in
a
in
a
Mass
driven
Market
when
gas
is
exceptionally
cheap
as
it
had
been.
For
you
know
several
years
here
you
know
two
dollars
three
dollars,
then
maybe
that
tips
a
little
bit
I
would
say
with
regard
to
certain
load
like
crypto.
O
My
guess
is
that
probably
is
mostly
in
the
deregulated
portion,
but
there's
a
reason
for
that
that
wouldn't
exist
in
Wyoming,
which
is
number
one.
They
can
contract
on
very
short
term
with
resources
and
using
their
buying
power,
get
a
relatively
low
cost,
but
then
they
can
also
kind
of
play
the
market
a
bit
which
is
in
a
market
like
ercot.
O
You
can
get
paid
to
not
be
drawing
load
and
so
for
for
an
operation
like
that,
it's
it
they
can
get
paid
when
they're
using
the
load
and
developing
crypto
or
when
they
shut
down
they
get
paid
by
other
customers
as
well.
So
that's
a
an
opportunity
that
only
would
exist
outside
of
a
market
and.
K
I
I
certainly
agree
that
it
doesn't
exist
in
the
state
of
Wyoming,
but
that's
to
some
degree
a
consequence
of
the
evolution
of
the
two
systems
developing
over
time
and
what
you
end
up
available
in
in
both
locations.
Not
so
so
not
all
deregulation
or
regulation
is
equal
and
one
thing
I
I,
don't
know
off.
K
K
Do
you
know
if
that
is
legal
in
the
deregulated
areas?
Excuse
me,
the
regulated
areas
of
Texas
could
I
have
company
a
build,
a
gas
reactor
and
sell
without
using
the
grid
to
Company
B.
O
Mr,
chairman
Senator
I,
don't
know
the
answer.
Okay
to
that
yeah.
Thank
you
picking
up
I'll,
so
moving
to
the
next
slide.
This
is
just
a
a
slide
produced
by
the
American
public
Power
Association,
which
they
have
for
years
tracked:
deregulated
States,
regulated
States
and
the
national
average
with
regard
to
electricity
costs,
and
what
you'll
see
here
is
just
a
persistent
Gap
regulated
states
have,
since
you
know,
dating
back
25
years,
have
had
on
average
lowest
costs.
O
The
regulated
states
have
had
the
the
higher
or
the
deregulated
states
have
had
the
highest
costs.
What
you
know
is
there
notice,
which
I
think
is
notable
besides,
just
that
that
Gap
is,
there
tends
to
be
a
bit
more
volatility
in
the
the
deregulated
side,
which
isn't
surprising
and
it's
it's
oftentimes
tied
to
the
cost
of
natural
gas,
because
a
deregulated
markets
are
just
that
much
more
exposed
to
the
kind
of
the
marginal
unit
that
happens
to
be
running
it
at
any.
Given
time.
O
Foreign
and
committee
members,
digging
in
a
little
closer
on
the
next
slide
to
Wyoming
versus
national
average
you'll,
see
that
that
Wyoming
for
the
last
20
years
has
had
costs
on
average
of
all
sectors,
far
below
the
the
national
average.
On
that
first
slide
on
the
left.
O
Moving
to
the
second
slide
on
the
right,
this
breaks
it
down
it's
a
little
busier,
but
it
breaks
it
down
between
residential
Industrial
and
Commercial
and
what
you
find
is
in
certainly
in
residential
and
Commercial
loads,
a
pretty
wide
gap
between
the
national
average
and
what
what
Wyoming
customers
pay.
The
the
lowest
two
lines
on
that
are.
O
The
industrial
rates
in
both
Wyoming
and
the
and
National
averages
you'll
see
that
Wyoming
up
until
just
the
last
couple
of
years
had
had
a
fairly
large
gap
where
industrial
rates
were
or
quite
a
bit
less
expensive
than
national
average
in
the
last
couple
of
years.
You
know
just
since
about
2015-16
the
Gap
kind
of
closed
and
they're
about
it
at
average.
A
H
You
Mr
chairman
Mr
Clark,
that
thank
you
for
this
information
and
my
my
old
eyes
have
a
hard
time
looking
at
these,
and
especially
the
colors,
but
it
it
appears
to
me
that
the
United
States,
commercial
and
Industrial
has
flattened
out
over
the
past
few
years
and
hasn't
kept
up
with
a
trend
that
is
trending
up.
Is
that
because
of
deregulation,
that
they
are
able
to
be
a
preferred
customer
and
get
better
rates?
Or
is
that
because
of
other
factors
that
I'm
not
aware
of
Mr.
O
Mr,
chairman
and
representative
I
think
it
really
has
to
do
with
gas
prices
that
that
the
the
Shale
gas
revolution
in
the
country
really
has
made
a
difference
in
power
markets
and
that
they
had
just
flattened
out.
In
fact,
in
recent
years,
what
you'll
see
is
in
in
any
of
the
organized
markets
of
the
country
is
the
the
wholesale
price
for
Generation
flattened
out,
but
what
has
become
a
bigger
and
bigger
portion
of
the
bill
has
been
the
transmission
or
the
fixed
cost.
The
transmission
portion
of
the
bill.
O
Foreign,
so
just
a
few
initial
takeaways
and
then
I'll
go
through
some
case.
Studies
of
other
states
that
have
have
tried
different
flavors
of
of
deregulation,
one
I
would
say
if,
after
25
years,
deregulation
was
driving
a
big
public
policy
advantage
in
cost
savings
for
consumers,
whether
they
be
industrial,
commercial
or
residential.
The
the
disparities
that
have
just
been
there
would
start
to
shrink,
but
it
hasn't,
it
hasn't
happened.
K
K
So
the
disparity
we
we
perceive,
though,
that
we're
kind
of
trying
to
address
is
if,
if
you're,
locating
a
large
power
consuming
facility,
you
don't
do
it
in
Wyoming
and
you
don't
seem
to
do
it
any
of
the
regulated
States.
You
seem
to
do
it
in
the
deregulated,
States
and
and
I.
Look
at
you
know
the
it
seems
like
in
any
given
day.
Texas
gets
more
total
dollars
of
investment
than
we
we
seem
to
be
getting
in
a
year.
We
we're
just
just
received
once
again
for
the
I
don't
know.
K
Thousandth
consecutive
year
we
have
the
best
tax
structure
in
the
country,
and
everything
here
would
be
low
costs
nearly
ideal
for
large
power
consuming
projects.
Workforce
is
a
bit
of
a
challenge,
but
we
have
the
Front
Range
and
we
know
that
we
can
draw
as
much
as
we
need
there.
K
Yet
the
large
power
consuming
projects
end
up
really
in
Texas
or
or
in
other
states
where
they
can
work,
deals
out
and
figure
out
how
to
reduce
their
costs.
So
I
would
say
that,
from
the
standpoint
of
of
consumer
cost,
saving
that
first
bullet
point
that
you
have
here
makes
a
lot
of
sense
to
me
and
and
again
the
industrial
power
zones.
K
Doesn't
it's
trying
very
hard
to
not
change
the
the
regulated
utility
structure
for
for
standard
rate
payers,
but
trying
to
thread
the
needle
to
recognize
that
nobody
even
stops
by
Wyoming
if
they
have
a
large
energy
consumption
project
with
the
exception
and
what
sort
of
started?
This
was
the
cryptocurrency
discussion
in
recent
years,
but
honestly
we're
talking
more
probably
about
hydrogen
and
other
things
at
this
point
in
time,
but
they
they.
If
they
do
stop
by
and
look
they.
K
They
look
at
our
power
costs
and
the
the
regulated
structure
and
a
lot
of
times
they
they
move
on
to
Texas.
So
how.
K
Do
you
have
contrary
evidence
to
that?
That
shows
that
these
large
power
consuming
projects,
which
is
really
the
focus
of
this
committee,
trying
to
resolve
that
problem,
are
locating
more
favorably
in
regulated
utility
areas
and
that
what
we're
seeing
in
Texas
is
is,
in
fact,
anecdotal
and
inaccurate.
O
Yeah
Mr,
chairman
and
Senator,
so
I
believe
I
do
and
I
have
some
experience
from
it.
Coming
from
a
state
similar
to
Wyoming,
which
has
low
cost
profile
but
is
often
struggled
with
rural
Economic
Development
type
issues,
I
I
would
suggest
that
if
it
was
just
a
matter
of
of
low
cost,
then
you
sort
of
already
have
that,
so
there
may
be
other
issues
that
are
contributing
to
a
state
like
Texas
doing
as
well
as
it
has
in
terms
of
Economic,
Development
and
others.
O
I
I'd
suggest
probably
has
to
do
with
things
like
available
Workforce
and
infrastructure
issues,
and
things
like
that
that
are
just
available
in
a
more
densely
populated
area
like
that.
That
might
be
tipping
the
balance,
but
I
I
would
say,
especially
with
recent
events
in
in
Texas.
You
know
in
the
last
couple
of
years,
where
they've
had
significant
rely,
liability
events
and
increasingly
we'll
have
some
cost
challenges.
You
have
started
to
see
some
of
that
development
move
elsewhere.
O
There
was
a
similar
I
think
it
was
a
Tesla
Toyota
battery
facility
and
a
similar
type
of
of
issues
with
that
I
think
located
in
either
Tennessee
or
North,
Carolina
kind
of
for
similar
reasons,
there's
just
more
stability
in
Energy
prices
and
then
with
the
Texas
reliability
issues
they
had
concerns.
So
I
think
there
is
some
anecdotal
evidence
that
that's
happening.
I
would
also
point
to
some
of
the
large
tech
companies,
not
all
of
them
publicized
for
all
of
their
data.
O
Centers
are,
but
if
you
for
those
that
do,
for
example,
Google
they
have
something
like
I
think
about
a
dozen
or
14
large
data,
centers
scattered
across
the
country.
Most
of
them-
maybe
all
but
two-
are
located
in
regulated
service
territory,
areas
and
I
suspect
it's
because
they
tend
to
be
the
lowest
cost
areas
and
they
tend
to
be
areas
where
they
locate
where
they
have
really
strong.
Telecommunications
ties
and
things
like
that
that
they
can
can
hook
up
to
okay.
D
Thank
you,
Mr
Sherman,
Mr
Clark.
Would
you
comment
on
if
deregulation
had
a
an
impact
on
the
fias
what's
happening
in
Texas
a
little
over
a
year
ago
with
their
when
their
Power
Ranges
went
crazy
and
had
a
nearer
meltdown
of
their
grid?
Etc.
O
O
What
happened
you
know
sort
of
during
winter,
storm,
Yuri
and
and
and
and
you
know,
regulatory
structured,
so
I
would
say
this
number
one
when
they
when,
when
Yuri
hit-
and
you
had
gas
prices
Spike
all
over
the
the
U.S
that
was
going
to
affect
you,
whether
you're
in
a
deregulated
state
or
whether
you're
in
a
regulated
state
in
one
form
or
another
I
mean
the
base
cost
of
the
fuel
skyrocketed
over
a
weekend,
and
it
had
impacts
everywhere
where
the
the
impact
was
most
especially
harmful
happened
to
be
in
the
state
of
Texas
and
I.
O
Think
that
is
at
least
partially
a
deregulation
story
where
the
problem
in
Texas,
as
I'll
talk
about
in
a
slide
or
two
is
that
market
design
never
supported
retention
of
capacity
and
never
supported
planning
for
resource
adequacy,
which
regulation
does.
And
so
what
happened
is
once
they
got
into
a
situation
where
you
had
conditions
that
were
not.
They
were
not
favorable,
weather
conditions
for
for
intermittent
Renewables,
and
you
had
a
number
of
events
related
to
winter
weather.
O
They
just
didn't
have
the
capacity
to
to
to
provide
service
to
the
load
and
that's
true,
even
if
they
hadn't
hadn't
lost
a
lot
of
units
to
things
like
freeze
off
and
and
well
freeze
off,
and
things
like
that
they
had
even
had
those
units
been
operating,
they
would
have
been
short
of
capacity
they've.
It's
just
a
market
that
doesn't
support
retention
of
on-demand
generation.
A
Q
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman,
as
representative
Western
mentioned
earlier,
I
think
the
problem
with
your
thesis
is
that
the
batch
of
states
that
have
deregulated
ironically,
are
mostly
in
the
Acela
corridor,
where
median
incomes
are
the
highest
in
the
nation
and
everything
costs
more
in
general,
I
mean
you
have
the
one
exception
of
of
Texas,
which
is
another
story,
but
I
think
that's
the
problem
with
your
thesis,
so
I
guess.
My
question
is
twofold:
I'm
very
interested
in
the
history
of
deregulation
in
the
in
the
Acela
Corridor
I
mean
what's
the
history
of
that.
Q
What
what
drove
that?
What
were
some
of
the
reasons
for
that?
Because
you
do
have
you
know
geographical
scale,
there
I
mean
it
and
it's
clearly
a
cluster
that
has
done
it,
and
what's
your
response
to
to
that,
thanks
sure.
O
Thank
you
Mr,
chairman
and
representative.
Hopefully,
I'll
I'll
fill
in
some
of
the
gaps
on
that
they
weren't.
Quite
the
only
states
that
that
deregulated
one
that
did
that
was
a
low-cost
state
was
Montana
and
I.
Think
their
experience
is,
is
really
instructive.
As
to
the
the
concern
in
danger
when
you're
a
low-cost
State
and
you
you
deregulate,
but
in
terms
of
the
Northeast
I,
think
what
really
drove
that
was
number
one.
They
had
the
highest
power
costs
in
the
country,
so
they
figured.
O
Why
not
try
something
else,
and
so
that
and
just
sort
of
the
philosophical
whiteboard
theory
of
hey?
Let's,
let's
put
the
risk
on
investors
and
then
they
can
then
they
can
invest
in
in
Plants.
The
the
challenge
is
you,
you
can
lose
something
in
resource
adequacy
planning
in
that
transition
to
the
Senator
biteman's
question
earlier
about
is:
is
the
regulated
model
at
at
risk
because
of
all
of
the
changes
that
are
happening.
The
grid
and
things
that
are
going
on
in
California
and
States
doing
different
things.
O
If
you
feel
like
for
your
State's
residence
they're,
going
to
be
short
of
capacity,
you
can
work
with
or
order
your
utilities
to
build
and
retain
on-demand
generation
to
help
support
resource
adequacy
within
your
state.
Once
you
deregulate,
and
you
unbundle
those
utilities
and
you
make
generators
essentially
Merchant
and
they're,
dependent
on
a
wholesale
Market,
which
increasingly
is
dysfunctional
I.
Think
that's
where
you
have
the
the
bigger
problem.
H
O
No
I'm
happy
to
questions
absolutely
I'll.
Leave
this
slide
as
it
is.
You
can
read
it
later,
but
just
some
academic
studies
that
sort
of
back
up
what
they've
been
talking
about
here.
So
California
is
one
case
study
and
a
concerning
one.
They
have
a
very
unique
regulatory
structure
in
California
for
lots
of
reasons
they
coming
out
of
the
western
energy
crisis.
What
they
have
is
a
state
where
the
utilities
themselves,
they
don't
have
full
deregulation,
but
the
utilities
themselves
don't
own
any
Generation.
O
It's
they're
dependent
on
on
basically
Merchant
providers.
They
have
had
sort
of
one
limited
form
of
which
is
why
lithium
is
a
hybrid
deregulated
State.
They
all
they
call
Community
Choice
aggregation,
which
is
a
just.
A
geographic
area
can
choose
to
usually
it's
a
city
or
a
county,
or
something
like
that
can
can
choose
to
have
some
sort
of
alternative
energy
supplier
Supply
their
energy.
O
The
problem
with
that
and
now
a
third
of
California's
load
is,
is
Sir
served
in
some
way
by
this
kind
of
Quasi
deregulated
CCA
structure,
the
challenge
there
is
again
resource
adequacy.
Someone
has
to
ensure
the
stability
of
the
whole
system,
because
it's
an
interconnected
grid
and
and
what
happened
in
California
has
happened.
The
last
two
summers
most
recently
is
that
someone's
not
paying
attention
to
that
that
resource
adequacy
issue
and
all
of
the
individual
ccas
are
and
and
the
in
that
case,
California
ISO
itself-
is
building
into
its
model.
O
Rosy
assumptions
that
when
the
wind
is
not
blowing
and
the
sun
isn't
shining
that
they'll
just
be
able
to
import
the
power
from
somewhere
else.
That's
where
they've
fallen
down
is
the
rest
of
the
West
needs
that,
because
capacity
has
been
closing
and
we've
had,
you
know
more
sort
of
extreme
weather
in
terms
of
of
the
highest
of
the
highs
and
the
lowest
of
the
lows
in
the
summer
and
winter.
O
Moving
on
to
Texas,
we've
talked
about
this,
so
I
won't
belabor
it
much.
But
but
again
the
trade-off
in
Texas
was
they
said,
look
let
the
market
decided
let
the
prices
go
as
high
as
they
will.
That
will
encourage
generation
capacity
to
invest,
unfortunately,
because
the
the
market
structure,
in
my
opinion
at
least,
is
pretty
fundamentally
broken
and
doesn't
support
on-demand
generation.
O
People
don't
invest
in
on-demand
generation,
because
that's
not
where
you
can
make
money,
you
can
make
money
as
a
zero
fuel
cost
resource
that
gets
paid
as
if
you
were
an
on-demand
generator
and
that's
continued
to
erode
resource
adequacy
in
in
Texas
flipping
to
the
next
slide.
This
just
shows
that
prices
in
the
deregulated
power
Market
in
Texas
are
on
the
upswing
and
I
think
that
the
data
always
has
a
little
bit
of
a
lag
to
it,
because
eia
data
just
tends
to,
but
given
winter
storm
Yuri.
O
What
happened
this
past
winter
summer
or
prices
have
been
spiking
dramatically
and
deregulated
taxes,
especially
I,
think
that
these
Trends
are
going
to
continue.
O
Instructive
for
for
Wyoming
it
Montana
might
have
had
the
worst
experience
in
terms
of
deregulation
and
they
went
the
whole
way
with
it
in
the
late
1990s,
low-cost
State
decided
to
to
deregulate,
and
it
was
based
basically
on
a
theory.
You
know
computational
Prevail
and
our
rates
will
go
even
lower.
What
in
fact
happened
was
just
the
opposite
as
the
Western
Energy
markets,
spiraled
in
the
early
2000s,
coming
out
of
the
western
energy
crisis
and
then
later
in
sort
of
the
mid-auts
with
financial
gas
prices
spiking.
O
What
happened
was
montanans
were
directly
exposed
to
those
High
market
prices,
both
on
the
industrial
commercial
sites,
but
also
with
with
residential
customers.
So,
basically,
cheap
Montana
power
was
exported
to
the
rest
of
the
region
in
Montana's
rates
Rose
to
the
very
high
Regional
average.
It
also
has
created
a
long-term
capacity
problem
in
Montana.
Montana
is
a
state
today
that,
on
its
peak
days,
cannot
serve
its
its
load
from
Montana
resources.
O
They
are
dependent
on
on
Imports
I'm,
very
familiar
with
the
state's
largest
utility
there
and
they're
constantly
exposed
to
have
to
go
out
to
the
market
on
high
demand
days
because
of
the
the
decisions
25
years
ago
to
sell
off
that
generation.
They're
just
sort
of
consistently
capacity
short
and
they've
been
digging
themselves
out
of
that
hole.
The
as
I
note
here,
ultimately
Montana
re-regulated,
at
least
in
part.
O
Industrial
is
kind
of
deregulated
right
now
over
a
certain
size
load
in
in
Montana,
but
the
the
governor
in
the
signing
statement
called
deregulation
and
unmitigated
disaster
for
the
State
and
I
suspect
that
in
future
years
there
are
going
to
be
some
challenges
that
Montana
has
because
of
that
capacity
issue
that
I
that
I
mentioned
when
when
capacity
was
relatively
plentiful
across
the
west
and
across
the
Northwest,
it
might
be
one
thing
when
you
can
go
out
to
the
market
and
and
access
that
that
is
not
the
case.
O
Moving
forward
capacity
is
getting
Tighter
and
Tighter
in
the
west
there's
already
loss
of
load
expectations
in
the
Pacific
Northwest,
especially
there's
been
a
lot
of
cold
shutdowns
and
not
enough
on-demand
resources
that
are
backing
that
up.
This
is
going
to
be
a
very
big
challenge
for
that
that
portion
of
the
load,
which
basically
dumps
off
its
resource
adequacy
issues
to
the
to
the
rest
of
the
grid
and
just
contracts
on
a
very
short-term
basis
for
for
energy
Supply.
O
I
Mr
chairman
question:
do
you
say
the
cheap
Montana
power
was
exported?
What
percentage
did
they
export
we're?
You're,
saying
that
we
export
about
86
percent,
maybe
with
Pacific
were.
O
They
at
those
kennel
levels-
Mr
chairman
and
Senator
I,
don't
know
historically,
where
Montana
was
at
exactly
in
terms
of
imports
and
and
exports
and
on
a
day-to-day
basis.
I,
don't
know
exactly
where
they're
at
I
can
tell
you
that,
from
a
from
a
peak
capacity
from
Peak
load
standpoint,
Montana
does
not
have
capacity
in
state
to
be
able
to
serve
its
own
needs.
O
Please
Montana's
also
I
should
say
a
little
bit
unique
in
that
has
a
lot
of
Hydro
power.
There's
there
just
is
given
the
historical
Legacy
of
the
the
Hydra
facilities
there,
which
is
great
if
you
can
get
it.
O
I
won't
spend
much
time
on
this
slide
in
terms
of
challenges.
Deregulation.
This
really
applies
to
fully
deregulated
states
where
consumers
are
thrown
directly
into
the
marketplace,
which
probably
applies
more
to
the
the
second
Bill
than
than
the
first
one,
but
suffice
it
to
say
that
that
consumer
Advocates
attorneys
generally
have
a
lot
of
concerns
in
deregulated
States.
O
They
have
especially
average
retail
consumers,
suffer
consumer
protection
issues,
one
final
slide
or
just
a
couple
final
slides
here:
wrapping
up
I
I
like
this
one
on
the
Midwest
resource
adequacy
problem,
because
I
think
it
really
highlights
the
issue
once
you
start
having
a
certain
large
load
escape
the
the
system
and
not
plan
for
for
resource
capacity
capacity,
because
those
loads
will
tend
to
contract
on
a
very
short-term
basis,
utilities
can't
build
20
and
30
year
assets
on
that
sort
of
business
model.
O
This
this
graph
on
the
right
refers
to
unforced
capacity
within
the
the
different
zones
of
the
the
Midwest
ISO,
which
is
or
Midcontinent
ISO,
which
is
an
RTO
and
you'll,
see
the
different
zones.
The
one
zone
sticks
out
at
zone
four,
which
is
very
capacity
short
at
this
point.
O
It's
also
his
own
miso
in
the
the
most
recent
reliability
reports
before
ferc
miso
was
the
most
at-risk
region
of
the
country
this
past
summer,
in
terms
of
concern
about
summer
blackouts,
and
it's
really
related
to
one
zone
zone
four
which,
as
you'll
see
on
the
chart,
is
Illinois.
O
O
Finally,
just
wrapping
up
the
the
sort
of
full
deregulation
proposals
and
then
kind
of
limited
deregulation
proposals.
The
challenge
always
with
limited
deregulation,
is
just
a
few
things
one.
You
have
to
be
very
careful
about
cherry
picking,
the
most
profitable
customers
and
then
dumping
those
resource
adequacy,
long-term
capacity
needs
on
the
rest
of
the
system
and
the
the
remaining
the
remaining
customers,
which
can
lead
to
the
the
resource
adequacy
problems,
usually
in
any
form
of
deregulation.
O
So
some
sort
of
proceeding
has
to
be
done
to
to
deal
with
those
stranded
costs
which
would
assign
them
and
not
the
remaining
customers,
the
the
cost
of
the
system
and
and
then
you
just
have
the
ability
for
sophisticated
customers
to
be
able
to
do
things
and
manage
their
load
in
ways
that
that
can
impact
remaining
customers
on
the
system.
O
Final
slide,
I
would
just
say,
I
think
there
is
a
better
way
which
is
contained
within
the
traditional
regulatory
model
that
Wyoming
currently
has
and
and
Most
states
do,
which
is
to
retain
those
things
about
regulation
which
are
positive,
which
is
that
there
is
a
way
to
provide
for
resource
adequacy
to
plan
for
on-demand
generation
and
and
capacity
editions
in
a
networked
industry
and
and
retain
those
those
positive
things.
O
There
usually
are
ways
to
deal
with
kind
of
the
one-off
situation
of
customers
who
have
very
specific
needs,
whether
it's
through
the
type
of
resources
that
they
want
to
procure
or
access
to
different
kind
of
Market
constructs.
But
the
key
with
the
regulatory
model
is
that
the
utility
and
the
and
the
company-
that's
asking
for
the
kind
of
the
deviation
from
the
Tariff,
has
to
have
to
go
before,
in
this
case
your
Public
Service
Commission,
and
explain
why
that
tariff
revision
is
one
that
holds
other
customers.
Harmless
I.
O
Think
that's
a
good
regulatory
check
to
make
sure
that
that
resource
adequacy
and
capacity
needs
are
supported
and
it's
not
being
done
in
a
way
that
that
impacts
other
customers.
All
of
those
tools
should
be
available
to
the
to
the
PSC
and
the
utilities
as
it
is
today.
I
don't
have
any
special
knowledge
of
the
sorts
of
tariffs
that
have
been
implemented
in
in
Wyoming.
C
H
That's
all
right,
I'm
short
here,
Mr
chairman,
thank
you
very
much,
Mr
Clark,
very,
very
informative
presentation.
I
appreciate
the
effort
you
went
into
preparing
this.
A
lot
of
the
conversations
we
have
had
over
the
past
several
months
have
centered
around
cryptocurrency,
crypto,
Mining
and
I.
Think
that
stems
from
the
reason
why
we're
here
talking
about
this
is
I've.
H
Looked
through
some
of
the
tariffs
of
the
various
different
Public
Utilities
that
we
have
I
see
nothing
for
crypto
mining,
there's,
there's
tariffs
for
irrigation
pumps,
tariffs
for
street
lights,
tariffs
for
outdoor
lighting,
which
I
don't
know,
the
difference
between
a
street
light
and
an
outdoor
light,
but
apparently
there's
different
tariffs
for
those.
But
we
don't
have
anything
for
a
super
large
industrial
customer
such
as
a
crypto
mining
operations.
H
When,
when
a
utility
gets
a
certificated
area
for
public
needs
and
necessity,
it
basically
says
that
they
not
only
will
they
be
the
only
supplier,
but
they
will
have
the
resources
to
be
able
to
supply
whatever
is
needed
in
that
area
and
when
a
crypto
mind
comes
in
they
that's
a
very
large
power
supply
which
you
know
may
need
some
infrastructure,
but
we
need
to
protect
the
rest
of
the
rate
payers
as
well,
so
they
don't
get
get
so
they
have
to
hold
hold
the
bag
in
case
the
crypto
walks
away.
H
So
is
it
possible
to
handle
all
of
this
with
just
a
new
tariff
specifically
designed
for
crypto
mining,
rather
than
go
through
all
the
deregulation
and
things
that
we're
talking
about
today,
Mr.
K
O
The
bigger
issue
then
becomes
the
capacity
issues
of
having
to
serve
that
type
of
load.
When
you
don't
have
any
certain,
it's
very
lumpy
investment,
very
large
investment,
but
you
don't
have
a
lot
of
certain
about
whether
that
load
is
going
to
be
there.
You
know
five
or
ten
years
down
the
line
and
the
type
of
sort
of
assets
that
you
need
to
build
from
a
generation
capacity
standpoint
or
those
that
require
significant,
invest,
they're,
not
short-term
sorts
of
of
load.
K
Senator
roths
I
just
wanted
to
raise
the
fact
that
in
I
think
2019
we
did
work
with
Black
Hills
Power
to
create
a
new
tariff.
It
wasn't
called
a
cryptocurrency
tariff
because
it
was
a
generalized
large
load
tariff
and
it
when,
when
there
is
load
available,
it
does
meet
the
need
and-
and
that
is
what
I
believe
black
hills
has
entered
into.
I-
think
some
of
your
agreements
with
and
looked
at
Mr
Bush
to
kind
of
speak
about
how
much
they've
used
that
at
this
point
in
time.
K
So
if
if
load
is
available
and
if
the
the
certificated
region
boss,
we'll
call
them
the
the
utility
wants
to
engage,
they
have
the
power
to
and
literally
if
they
have
the
power
to
they.
They
have
the
the
Tariff
available,
the
challenges
that
they
don't
necessarily
have
the
power
available
and
honestly
they
they
don't
have
to
really
engage
they
can
they
can
make
a
judgment,
call
about
the
creditworthiness
of
the
intended
purchaser
and
and
then
basically
say?
No.
We
don't
want
to.
K
N
Mr
chairman,
if
I
may,
representative
heiner
Senator
rothfuss
is
right
and
in
2019
we
passed
legislation,
it's
referenced
actually
in
the
draft
of
50
50
52
Mr
Fuller
went
over
it.
It's
it
was
the
blockchain
interruptible
service
tariff
is
what
we
called
it
and
it
it's.
Let's
see
it's
on
page
five
37
3116..
N
N
So
basically,
what
the
Tariff
says
is
we
can
go
out
to
the
market,
buy
the
power
to
serve
that
crypto,
Miner
and
then
or
any
large
user
really,
and
then
it
protects
the
the
PSC
reviews
it
and
makes
sure
that
it's
all
protecting
the
existing
customers
and
basically
we
take
the
risk
as
a
company
on
whether
we're
going
to
serve
these
folks.
N
We
did
just
sign
up
a
group
in
Cheyenne
they're,
a
Wyoming
company
Roots
here
in
Casper
and
I
think
you've
heard
from
one
of
their
members
before
but
in
front
of
the
committee.
We
signed
them
up.
This
summer,
it's
about
45
megawatts
start,
which
is
a
sizable
load.
Cheyenne
on
average,
for
us
is
about
240
megawatts
a
day.
So
45
is
a
big
load.
They
can
increase
up
to
75..
N
So
it's
it's
a
good
deal
for
us.
We
did
sign
them
up
under
this
tariff
and
they
we
hope
they
are
going
to
start
operation
here
at
the
end
of
the
year,
beginning
of
next
year
in
Cheyenne,
but
that
Tariff
was
created
just
for
that
purpose
of
protecting
existing
customers
and
working
with
working
with
large
loads
like
that,
and
we
I
think.
We've
also
shown
the
ability
to
use
existing
statute
when
it
comes
to
deals
with
some
of
the
larger
data
centers
that
are
in
Cheyenne
and
some
of
our
other
large
customers.
N
That
existing
statute
really
does
allow
quite
a
bit
of
flexibility
for
these
folks
so
and
others,
and
so
I'll
leave
it
with
that.
But
it
is
there.
K
The
the
follow-up
question
to
that,
though,
that
that's
kind
of
been
a
concern
is
what
would
you
say,
the
total
number
of
megawatts
or
gigawatts
of
application
or
of
Interest
that
came
to
Black
Hills
relative
to
the
45
to
75
and
I.
Don't
know
what
the
total
amount
you're
providing
now
is,
but
it
seems
like
it's
a
an
order
of
magnitude,
if
not
better,
of.
N
Mr
chairman,
let
me
see
I,
think
I
have
that
figure.
N
So,
as
we've
talked
about
before,
we
did
a
kind
of
a
reverse
RFP
back
last
summer,
21
now
as
a
company,
because
we
were
getting
bombarded
with
so
many
crypto
mining
requests.
We
said:
okay,
here's
the
process,
please
fill
out
the
the
form,
tell
us
how
much
power
you
need
tell
us.
You
know
some
of
the
basic
facts
of
your
business
and
what
what
the
odd
or
what
what
you
need.
We
had
about
18
requests
through
that
RFP
process.
N
We
had
all
of
those
requests
added
up
to
about
two
gigawatts
worth
of
demand,
which
is
about
seven
times
more
than
Cheyenne's
Peak
load,
and
it
really
came
down
to.
We
found
this
company
to
be
one
that
worked
with
us.
They
were
willing
to
come
back
and
actually
discuss
some
of
the
infrastructure
needs
that
were
going
to
be
required,
building
out
to
their
location
when
you're
moving
that
much
power,
it
takes
a
lot
and
the
ability
to
serve
them.
45
megawatts
is
something
that
we
had
available
at
the
time.
N
Some
of
these
companies
again
I'm
on
that.
In
all
these
conversations,
but
anecdotally,
the
ones
some
of
the
meetings
I
have
been
in,
they
start
at
50
megawatts
they
move
up
to
150
megawatts
they
move
up
to
250
megawatts
within
a
year
or
two,
depending
on
how
long
it
takes
to
get
their
mining
equipment
to
their
facility.
N
It's
a
huge
load.
That's
a
lot
of
power
that
honestly,
we
would
like
to
serve
if
we
can
we're
trying
to
grow
I
think
there
has
been
a
little
bit
of
a
misperception
that
we're
not
interested
in
growing
I.
Think
the
evidence
is
contrary
to
that,
with
the
way
that
we
have
helped
with
the
city
of
Cheyenne
and
some
of
the
the
growth
that's
happened
down
there.
N
We
work
closely
with
the
economic
development
groups
across
the
state,
not
only
in
Cheyenne,
in
our
electric
service
territory,
but
in
our
gas
territories
and
a
lot
of
the
communities
that
you
all
represent.
So
we
are
trying
to
grow.
We
are
trying
to
grow
responsibly
and
we
are
trying
to
work
with
the
companies
that
are
willing
to
work
with
us.
So
that's
kind
of
the
story
of
of
where
we
were
is
about
two
gigawatts
of
demand.
D
K
And
and
again
and
Dave
I
appreciate
all
the
time
that
we've
spent
talking
about
this,
that
we
we
produce
that
much
power
in
the
state.
It's
just
that
we
export
85
percent
of
the
state
of
the
state's
power.
So
theoretically,
the
state
of
Wyoming
had
the
power
to
meet
this,
but
it
was
all
obligated
to
out
of
state
into
the
multi-state
agreements
to
to
all
of
the
other
projects,
so
the
regulated
structure
we
have
right
now
gives
as
I
understand
it.
K
K
Here's
the
reasonable
timeline,
we'll
build
it
in
the
Nuance.
That
I,
don't
think,
is
fully
appreciated.
That
legislation
is
trying
to
address
for
and
I
hope
we
can
find
a
solution
is
that
the
regulated
utilities
get
to
evaluate
the
credit
worthiness
or
which
is
the
best
candidate,
pick
that
best
candidate
and
say
no
to
the
rest,
and
then
the
rest
of
them
would
have
to
go
through
the
PSC
and
start
a
long
process.
Instead,
what
do
they
do?
They
go
to
Texas,
which
is
what
most
of
these
companies
did.
K
R
K
A
I
Mr
chairman,
how
are
those
requests
going
now,
since
the
collapse
of
that
industry?
Are
you
getting
a
lot
of
requests
for
positioning
and
more
power
and
that
kind
of
stuff,
since,
since
the
first
of
the
year.
N
Mr
chairman
Senator
Anderson,
I
I,
you
know
I
I,
don't
know
for
sure.
I'd
probably
have
to
ask
our
business
development.
Folks
we've
had
it's
definitely
slowed
down
and
I.
Think
part
of
that
is.
The
price
of
Bitcoin
itself
has
decreased
quite
a
bit.
I.
Think
part
of
that
could
be
just
volatility
in
that
industry.
I,
don't
I,
don't
know
enough
about
it.
Senator
office
and
representative
Western.
N
Others
know
a
lot
more
about
how
all
the
crypto
World
Works
than
I
do,
but
as
far
as
I
can
probably
guess,
I
think
that
the
requests
have
have
diminished
somewhat
representative.
H
Hunter,
thank
you
Mr
chairman
Mr
Bush,
so
you
mentioned
that
with
this
new
customer,
this
mining
crypto
mining
customer.
You
were
able
to
generate
a
separate
tariff
that
took
care
of
their
needs
without
encumbering
the
rest
of
your
ratepayers.
Is
that
correct?
So
without
without
the
deregulation
you
were
able
to
meet
the
needs
of
the
the
crypto
mining
industry,
perhaps
only
with
that
excess
capacity
that
you
had,
but
we
didn't
have
to
go
deregulated
to
be
able
to
do
this
right.
N
Mr,
chairman
representative
heiner,
yes,
that's,
correct
and,
and
to
one
of
Senator
office's
points
a
lot
of
times.
We
don't
say
no
to
these
other
companies.
We
say
we
have
here
are
the
stipulations
that
we
have
price
build
out
of
infrastructure,
those
sorts
of
things
and
many
times
we
don't
hear
back.
N
I
could
get
Mr
chairman
I
could
get
you
probably
the
document
that
we
gave
to
them.
I
don't
have
that
in
front
of
me
I,
it's
generally
again
how
much
power
do
you
need
business
background
and-
and
you
know
your
experience
in
the
industry
and
and
that
kind
of
thing-
your
intent
to
move
to
Cheyenne
security
of
land.
N
This
particular
Mr
Tim,
the
technical
conference.
Yeah
sorry,
the
conference
sounds
more
sorry.
Mr
chairman,
we
went
through
a
lot
of
details.
We
didn't
go
through
like
our
RFP
process,
Page
by
Page
other
than
to
say
we
had
one
and
then
it
the
the
I
think
you've
heard
the
kind
of
the
breakdown
of
what
happened
at
the
technical
conference.
It
was
more
of
a
wide-ranging
discussion
on.
K
Right,
quick
question:
question
yeah,
so
Mr
Clark,
and
we
appreciate
having
you
here
today
and
bringing
your
expertise.
A
lot
of
the
discussion
was
generalized
regular
and
deregulation,
bad,
and
that
tends
to
be
the
the
Specter
that's
brought
and
has
been
brought
as
the
primary
argument
against
the
specific
industrial
power.
Zone
legislation
is
always
well.
Deregulation
has
collapsed
all
of
these
things,
so
it's
never
anything
specific
to
this
bill.
K
It's
always
the
Specter
of
full-scale
deregulation
turns
out
catastrophically
as
I
look
through
the
better
way
and
then
the
key
considerations
of
limited
deregulation.
It
seems
like
literally
every
one
of
those
points
is
addressed
by
the
legislation.
Do
you
have
any
specific
indictments
of
industrial
power
zones
or
concerns,
or
even
better
ways
that
industrial
power
zones
could
be
strengthened
so
that
it's
more
effective.
O
Mr,
chairman
and
Senator
sure
so
I
didn't
specify
you
know,
I
didn't
delve
into
the
the
individual
bills
themselves.
Clearly,
the
second
one
dealing
with
more
kind
of
direct
deregulation,
I
think
is
particularly
problematic
with
regard
to
specifically
the
the
industrial
Zone
bill.
O
I
there
was
I
have
to
admit
as
I
read
it
about
the
first
half
I
thought,
I
knew
where
things
were
going
and
then
in
the
second
half
of
the
bill
it
there
was
some
confusion
that
I
had
so
as
I
read
the
first
portion
of
the
bill,
especially
as
it
related
to
only
receiving
and
consuming
power
from
within
that
zone.
To
me,
it
sort
of
sounded
like
I
think,
as
you
may
have
have
indicated
earlier,
almost
like
a
self-generation
like
a
micro
grid,
walled
off
from
the
rest
of
the
the
network
and
I.
O
Don't
know
enough
about
Wyoming
statute,
what's
what's
permitted
through
PSE
rules,
but
I
would
guess
that
if
it
was
purely
kind
of
disconnected
from
the
rest
of
the
grid,
you
might
be
able
to
to
do
that
without
this
as
I
as
I
moved
into
the
second
part
of
the
bill,
and
it
talks
about
the
the
commission
assessing
impacts
on
other
customers.
O
Then
it
told
me
well
no,
this
really
it's
a
part
of
the
interconnected
Grid.
It's
not
you
know,
sort
of
purely
a
microgrid
process
and
that's
where
I
project
and
that's
that's
where
I
think
it
becomes
more
difficult,
because
what
you
have
is
the
those
entities
because
of
the
way
that
resource
adequacy
has
worked
in
other
states
that
have
had
some
form
of
direct.
O
You
know
limited
sort
of
retail
access
deregulation,
that's
often
where
the
coffee
gets
spilled
between
the
the
lip
and
the
cup
is
on
these
long-term
resource
adequacy
issues
where
some
entity
has
to
provide
for
plan
and
ensure
stability
of
the
system
and
and
capacity
that
that
meets
those
peak
days,
because
you
one
of
the
things
about
electricity
markets,
is
to
provide
reliability.
You
can't
just
build
on
an
average
basis
the
amount
of
generating
capacity
you
need.
O
You
have
to
build,
for
you
know,
resources
above
and
beyond
what
actually
sort
of
reserves,
and
that's
where
this
kind
of
that
sort
of
thing
becomes
a
problem.
I
would
just
say
one
other
second
part
of
it.
That
I
had
questions
about
that.
I
really
didn't
understand
is
if
I
guess
it's
on
page
no
I
don't
have
the
page
number
on
the
seven.
O
One
thing
I
think
you
should
talk
to
the
commission
about,
and
maybe
talk
with
legal
counsel
about,
is
I'm,
not
sure
that
the
PSC
would
have
the
authority
to
do
that,
because
once
you're
talking
about
unbundled
Generations
selling
over
a
transmission
line,
I
suspect
that's
purely
for
jurisdictional,
yeah,
yep.
K
K
But
with
regard
to
the
question
about
the
the
microgrid
concept,
that's
not
allowed
in
Wyoming
right
now,
and
so
that's
one
of
the
things
this
is
trying
to
address
would
be
a
fully
isolated
island,
no
no
lines
and
no
lines
out.
You
still
can't
do
it,
but
the
other
consideration
getting
at
the
second
concept
is
you:
you
may
have
an
external
power
provider
and
then
they're
willing
to
sell
into
the
system
for
a
certain
price,
but
the
local
franchisee
is
unwilling
to
sell
at
that
price.
K
It
was
trying
to
provide
allowance
for
that
where
you'd
have
to
pay
the
freight
to
get
it
there
so
to
speak
and
then
have
the
PSC
approve
it
again.
It
gets
to
some
of
the
limited
points
that
you
had.
So
what
are
your
thoughts
on
that?
To
the
extent
that
the
PC
PSC
reviews
it
and
your
concern
was
well,
somebody
has
to
be
watching
it
to
ensure
that
it,
the
rate
payers,
are
protected.
It's
literally,
what's
in
the
bill,
the
rate
payers
are
protected
by
this
PSC
doing
just
that.
O
Mr,
chairman
and
Senator
I
think
where
my
concern
would
be
is
once
you
once
you
unbundle
portions
of
that
of
that
power.
Supply
delivery,
because
remember
with
the
with
the
traditional
vertically
integrated
utility,
where
you
have
that
utility
owns
generation
owns
transmission
and
owns
the
distribution,
it's
called
a
bundled
utility.
That's
with
within
an
understate
jurisdiction.
You
sort
of
solely
have
jurisdiction
over
that.
O
If
you're
talking
about
some
sort
of
power,
Zone
idea
where
I
would
guess
it
would
be
probably
power,
marketers
or
some
other
entity,
that's
not
affiliated
with
the
the
utility
or
selling
power
and
that's
a
wholesale
sale
on
a
federal
power
act
that
becomes
a
ferc
jurisdictional
issue,
and
so
the
resource
adequacy
planning
that
can
happen
in
the
bundled
utility
is
quite
clear
to
me
with
regard
to
who
has
Authority
it's
the
state,
it's
Wyoming
PSC
that
can
ensure
that
once
you
have
this
sort
of
unregulated
or
at
least
regulated
by
ferc
entity,
resource
adequacy
becomes
some
a
bigger
challenge,
because
someone
still
has
to
ensure
that
stability
of
the
grid,
someone
still
has
to
ensure
that
there
are
reserves
on
top
of
what
that
entity
is
procuring
for
on
those
days.
D
N
Mr
chairman
real
quickly,
I
thanks
to
folks
listening
in
back
at
Cheyenne
headquarters,
I
do
have
a
copy
of
our
RFP
that
I
can
email
to
the
committee
once
I
figure
out
how
to
do
it
on
my
phone
and
everything
so,
okay.
Thank
you,
Mr
yeah!
Thank
you.
If
anybody
really
wants
it
all.
A
Right
so
at
this
point,
we're
going
to
take
public
testimony
well
I'm
just
going
to
find
out,
because
I'm
am
I
actually
going
to
keep
this
on
schedule
and
move
the
discussion
of
this
till
later
this
afternoon.
It
seems
how
we
burned
all
the
time
allotted
who
who
is
set,
who
wants
to
testify
on
these
two
bills?
Here,
let's
go
one:
two
Bruce,
okay,
I
I,
can't
understand
what
the
people
online
want
to
do.
B
A
So
here's
what
we're
going
to
do,
because
we
have
other
people
that
traveled
and
this
discussion
can
obviously
drag
on
forever.
Is
we're
going
to
go
ahead
and
Shuffle
our
agenda?
Take
public
comment
on
this
after
the
last
agenda
item
for
today
and
then
we'll
debate
these
bills,
because,
ladies,
you
guys
want
to
tonight
until
we
get
this
put
to
rest.
So
with
that
we
remove
that
agenda.
So
next
up
is
an
update
from
the
integrated
test
center
foreign.
I
A
S
You
Mr
chairman
Jason
Baker
I'm,
the
managing
director
of
the
Wyoming
integrated
test
center
and
I,
wanted
to
spend
a
few
minutes
here,
just
kind
of
giving
the
committee
and
folks
an
update
on
what's
happening
at
the
the
facility
kind
of
a
forward.
Look
at
some
of
the
projects
coming
in
as
well
as
kind
of
explained
kind
of
some
of
the
things
that
we're
looking
at
as
we
look
out
to
the
Future
a
few
years.
S
So,
oh
first
of
all,
I
think
it's
really
important
to
say
that
the
test
center
has
been
a
tremendous
success
story
for
the
state
and
I
think
it's
a
great
example
of
the
state
putting
in
some
seed
money
that
has
been
leveraged
many
times
over.
So
you
know
everything
from
the
X
prize.
Competition
coming
in,
unfortunately
with
covid
that
really
kind
of
threw
a
wrench
into
things,
mostly
because
three
of
the
international
teams
that
were
supposed
to
come
weren't
able
to
come.
S
But
you
know
at
the
end
of
the
day
we
have
over
a
hundred
million
dollars
worth
of
projects
in
the
pipeline.
So
if
I
could
have
moved
to
my
next
slide
here.
Talking
about
some
of
the
highlights,
so
you
know
as
kind
of
a
refresher
for
the
group
The
Test
Center
was
authorized
in
a
budget
footnote
back
in
2014,
and
the
state
approached
your
microphone
closer
to
speak
louder.
S
Sorry,
thank
you
and
the
the
state
appropriated
15
million
dollars
to
go
towards
the
construction
operation
of
the
facility,
with
the
condition
that
certain
or
with
the
yeah,
with
the
condition
that
certain
other
measures
were
met,
and
one
of
that
was
Finding
at
least
five
million
in
cost
share
from
utilities
and
did
a
little
bit
better
than
that
actually
found
six
million.
So
the
original
budget
was
21
million,
provided
by
one
million
from
nreca
5
million
from
Tri-State,
and
then
basically,
electric
internally
is
estimated.
S
They've
contributed
about
7
million
in
in
kind.
That's
through
equipment,
equipment,
use
construction
management,
lease
of
the
ability
to
use
the
ground
at
Dry
Fork
station,
so
I'm
pretty
considerable
contribution
from
everyone.
S
The
project
itself.
We
had
about
a
15
million
dollar
budget
set
aside
for
engineering
design
construction.
We
came
in
18
under
budget
which
in
turn
allowed
us
enough
funds
to
operate
it
for
four
years.
More
than
originally
intended,
so
the
original
intent
was
about
a
10-year
project,
but
we'll
go
14.
so
earlier
this
year
we
were
able
to
extend
our
lease
with
Basin
electric
through
the
rest
of
the
decade,
which
aligns
really
well
with
kind
of
the
project
pipeline
that
we
have
laid
out.
S
We've
also
been
working
with
the
Department
of
energy
on
how
to
utilize
the
facility
Beyond
just
coal
flu,
gas
testing
and
there's
some
infrastructure
that
we
could
add
that
in
essence,
dilutes
the
cold
flu,
gas,
so
cold
flu
gas
is
about
12
and
a
half
percent
CO2
natural
gas
combined
cycle
is
roughly
six
percent.
So
if
we
put
on
a
blower
system,
we
could
replicate
natural
gas
combined
cycle.
S
Flue
gas
and
doe
said
that
if
you
did
that,
we
would
allow
a
natural
gas
foa
projects
to
be
cited
there
so
again,
just
trying
to
think
how
can
we
take
that
asset
and
use
it
for
a
broader
range
of
purposes?
S
Another
thing
that
we've
done
that
we're
pretty
excited
about
and
I
guess
pretty
proud
of.
The
fact
is,
we,
we
developed
an
in-kind
cost
share
formula
with
doe
that
they
approved
and
for
most
projects
it
really
depends
on
what
it
is,
but
it's
either
an
80
20
cost
share.
Sometimes
it's
50
50
cost
share.
Well
all
of
that
money
that
we
have
used
that
21
million
we
were
able
to
allocate
that
out
as
cost
share
so,
for
example,
sometimes
projects.
S
You
know
if
it's
a
50
million
dollar
project,
they
need
to
come
up
with
10
million
in
their
own
non-federal
cost
share
and
oftentimes.
They
don't
always
need
the
cash,
but
they
need
the
allocation,
and
so
we
were
able
to
come
up
with
I.
Guess
probably
the
easiest
way
to
describe
it
as
a
depreciation
schedule.
S
So
when
Sergeant
Lundy,
which
was
the
engineering
firm
that
designed
the
ITC
designed
it,
they
said
we
figured
this
thing
has
about
a
five-year
usable
life,
and
so
we
were
able
to
allocate
those
costs
out
a
certain
amount
every
month
and
then
provide
that
back
to
our
research
tenants.
So
in
essence,
we
took
that
15
million
dollars
that
the
state
appropriated
in
2014
and
leveraged
it
into
over
80
million
dollars
or
more
grants,
so
no
cash,
but
we
were
able
to
use
it
and
multiply
that
many
times
over
represent.
G
S
What
about
natural
gas
yeah,
so
we
we
had
Sergeant
Lundy
last
fall,
do
a
a
feed
study
on
that
and
at
the
time
they
said
it
would
be
about
two
and
a
half
million
we're
pulling
some
numbers
together
again
and
they
they
figure
it's
probably
about
3.2
to
3.5
million.
Today,
with
inflation,
Mr.
S
We
do
plan
to
and
I'll
talk
about
a
little
bit
kind
of
bring
a
suite
of
potential
options
to
doe
as
they're
thinking
about
their
infrastructure
needs
to
host.
You
know
the
wide
array
of
projects
that
they
have
coming
down
the
pipe,
so
our
hope
is
doe
would
pay
for
80
of
it.
If
that
time
came.
S
Or
private
sources?
Yes,
thank
you
on
Sunday
I
guess.
Five
days
ago
the
ITC
was
formally
accepted
into
an
international
organization
called
the
international
test
center
Network.
So
we
became
the
14th
qualified
facility
around
the
world
that
hosts
larger
scale
carbon
capture,
and
so
they
have.
They
have
a
pretty
hard
high
bar
to
be
accepted.
You
actually
have
to
be
conducting
post-combustion
or
or
I.
Guess,
carbon
capture,
research
on
the
ground,
using
real
flu
gas
at
a
certain
level
and
the
other
facilities
on
the
national
carbon
capture.
Center
is
one.
S
Then
you
know
they're
all
over.
There
are
a
couple
in
Australia
a
couple
of
Norway
I
think
one
in
the
UK.
So
it's
a
really
good
organization
to
be
a
part
of
to
really
do
a
lot
of
information
sharing
and
understanding
how
you
manage
projects
of
this
scale
and
the
types
of
results
that
they're,
saying
and
then
kind
of.
Lastly,
you
know
we
worked
really
closely
with
the
the
federal
delegation
senator
barrasso,
in
particular,
in
his
roles
on
on
some
of
the
Committees
to
authorize
funding
for
facilities.
S
You
know
a
lot
of
the
research
that
is
has
been
appropriated
lately
is
going
towards
the
actual
r
d
projects,
but
they
need
to
be
mindful
of
the
fact
that
they
actually
need
places
on
the
ground
to
do
that
type
of
work.
So,
thanks
to
our
federal
delegation
and
in
the
2020
Energy
bill,
there
was
a
provision
that
allows
for
the
funding
of
a
qualified
carbon
capture
facilities
and
it
gets
25
million
dollars
a
year
up
to
five
years.
S
One
of
our
next
slide
is
just
kind
of
a
quick
graphic
to
show
the
sort
of
the
scale
and
range
of
the
size
of
these
projects.
You
know
if
you
going
from
bench
scale
University
work.
You
know
that
initial
kind
of
proof
of
concept
up
to
commercialization
is
probably
three
or
four
generations
of
scale
up
learning,
a
little
bit
more
learning
how
to
engineer
the
system
de-risking
and
then,
once
you
get
started
getting
bigger,
it's
some
systems,
integration.
S
You
know
a
lot
of
people
hear
about
the
Kemper
project
as
being
a
failure,
and
it
really
wasn't
a
failure
of
the
technology.
The
challenge
in
that
was
when
they
tried
to
integrate
five
or
six
independent
systems
into
an
operating
power
plant
and
and
and
scaling
up
too
quickly,
so
as
as
projects
move
from
those
smaller
scale
ones
to
the
bigger
ones.
Those
are
the
the
lessons
that
they're
trying
to
learn
and
the
unique
thing
about
the
ITC
is.
S
We
do
have
the
ability
to
host
a
project
all
the
way
up
to
20
megawatt
equivalent
scale,
and
if
something
is
successful
at
that
range,
really,
the
next
level
is
full-scale,
commercialization
and,
and
the
ITC
is
the
only
facility
of
that
size
in
in
North
America
kind
of
quickly.
Talking
about
the
the
tenants
that
we
have
coming
in
covid
certainly
upset
the
schedule
and
created
a
little
bit
of
a
log
Jam,
but
next
spring
we
expect
to
be
really
really
busy
out
there.
S
Mtr
is
it
has
a
member
in
technology,
they
won
a
65
million
dollar
Grant
from
doe
about
two
years
ago
and
they're
slated
to
start
construction
next
spring.
As
soon
as
the
weather
breaks
they've
been
trying
to
speed
that
up,
they
were
at
one
point,
even
hoping.
Maybe
they
could
start
some
work.
S
This
fall,
but
actually
procurement
and
supply
chain
issues
have
created
some
some
challenges
for
them,
as
well
as
the
rest
of
the
project,
so
they're
now,
looking
at
next
spring,
a
GTI
energy
has
another
project,
I
think
he's
about
an
18
million
dollar
doe
project
and
they'll
start
construction
a
little
bit
later
in
2024
and
test
in
2025
Kawasaki.
Heavy
Industries
has
a
project,
it's
about
a
10
million
dollar
project
to
test
a
dry
sorbent
capture
technology,
and
they
should
be
on
site
for
about
two
years.
G
Chairman,
thank
you
so
Mr
beggar,
the
the
GTI
plan
to
start
construction-
is
that
contingent
on
modifying
the
ITC.
To
do.
Excuse
me
simulate
Natural,
Gas,.
S
Mr,
chairman
representative
Burkhart,
no,
that
is,
that
foa
that
they
they
were
awarded
under
it
was
a
cold
gas
simulation.
So
all
of
the
projects
I
do
have
listed
here
are
for
coal
gas
simulation.
S
Tda
is
a
a
research
company
out
of
the
Denver
area.
They're,
actually
testing
right
now
up
there
on
a
sorbent
system
that
they
have
and
then
the
last
one
is
green
ore.
That's
a
technology
that
came
out
of
Columbia
University
and
it's
it's
a
utilization
technology
actually,
and
they
have
they
have
a
successful.
S
S
A
product
and
Powder
River
Basin
coal
is
naturally
very
high
in
calcium,
and
so
the
thought
is,
can
you
take
the
flue
gas
off
a
prb
facility
use
fly
ash
as
the
calcium
input
to
to
to
create
carbonates
they've
done
some
early
scale
bench
work
and
it
does
look
positive
and
right.
Now.
The
partners
in
that
is
a
J
Cole
out
of
Japan
and
internally
they're
kind
of
reviewing
as
to
whether
they
want
to
go
to
the
next
phase,
which
would
be
a
demonstration
project
at
the
test
center.
S
The
next
picture
is
a
kind
of
a
the
schematic
of
that
65
million
dollar
MTR
project.
That's
the
start.
Construction
next
spring,
that's
about
a
10
megawatt
project
which
would
be
about
200
ton
per
day,
and
so
it's
very
significant
and
the
neat
thing
about
MTR
is
it's
a
really
good
example
of
a
technology?
That's
doing
exactly
what
Wyoming
wants
it
to
do,
leading
yeah
to
hopefully
a
commercial
deployment,
and
what
I
mean
is
simultaneously
with
this
project.
S
That
would
be
a
major
determining
factor
in
whether
they
go
build
a
full-scale
commercial
system
at
that
site,
and
another
Link
in
that
is
is
the
are
the
carbon
safe
Wells
that
Ser
is
working
on
with
with
doe,
so
you
really
have
kind
of
a
solution
in
sight
for
the
Dry
Fork
Power
Station,
where
capture
yeah
capture
technology
that
has
been
identified
as
well
as
sequestration
disposal
opportunity.
You
know,
half
a
mile
to
the
South.
S
The
next
drawing
is
again
kind
of
a
schematic
of
the
the
Kawasaki
system.
That'll
that'll
start
construction.
Next,
probably
next
May
is
is
what
they
said
earlier
this
week
and
what
they're
what
they
want
to
do.
There
is,
instead
of
a
liquid
amine,
solvent
that,
like
petronova
or
boundary
Dam
uses
they
have
a
dry
powdered
sorbent
chemically.
It
does
the
same
thing,
but
sorbents
could
have
some
potential
benefits
in
lower
energy
inputs
as
it's.
S
It's
a
temperature
swing
that
allows
sorbents
and
solvents
to
capture
and
then
release
the
the
the
CO2
and
the
promise
I
guess
of
the
Kawasaki
system
is
they
feel
like
that?
Temperature
swing
is
narrower
and
therefore
your
operational
expenses
should
be
should
be
lower.
S
This
particular
test
that
they
plan
to
do
is
they're,
going
to
bring
sorbin
in
and
they're
just
going
to
run
it
as
many
times
as
they
can
to
cycle
that
and
check
for
degradation
and
how
long
absorbent
lasts
in
a
system
like
that,
sulfur
socks
has
a
really
negative
impact
on
immune
systems.
So,
typically,
you
have
to
put
a
polisher
on
there
to
take
completely
remove
this,
the
sulfur
dioxide
out
of
a
out
of
an
amine-based
system.
S
So
they
even
though
Dry
Fork
station
has
a
has
socks,
controls
on
the
power
plant,
there's
still
a
fraction
or
a
tiny
amount
of
socks
that
makes
it
up
through
the
stacks.
So
they
want
to
see
how
all
that
impacts,
the
the
lifespan
of
their
sorbent
system,
I'm
kind
of
talking
a
little
bit
about
these
opportunities.
Looking
forward
is,
you
know
back
in
2014
2015
when
we
were
pulling
the
ITC
together.
S
You
know
we
really
looked
closely
at
the
national
carbon
capture
center
to
see
what
they
do,
how
they
do
things
and
trying
to
complement
what
they
do
there.
In
Alabama,
as
opposed
to
compete
with
them
and
we've
have
a
really
great
relationship
with
them
and
they're
very
helpful
in
some
of
the
projects
we
have
coming,
are
you
know
they?
They
cut
their
teeth
at
the
national
carbon
capture
Center,
but
that
facility
is
changing.
S
I
A
question:
yes,
sir
question
I
think
you
said
we'll
close
by
2018.
The
printed
thing
here
says:
2028.
Mr,.
S
Chairman
I
I
misspoke,
if
that's
what
I
said
so
they
converted
to
natural
gas
in
2016
and
are
slated
to
close
by
2028.
So
my
mistake,
the
national
carbon
capture
system
or
excuse
me
nc3,
is
called
they
or
a
doe
funded
research
facility
and
oh
gosh,
probably
the
last
20
years.
They
have
done
a
series
of
five-year
contracts
with
doe.
S
The
last
one
was
renewed
in
2020
and
that's
140
million
dollars
over
the
life,
and
it's
widely
rumored
that
since
they
will
no
longer
have
cold
flu
gas,
that
that
contract
will
not
be
renewed
in
2025.
and
doe
is
again.
You
know,
with
the
substantial
amount
of
carbon
capture
funds
that
were
put
in
the
infrastructure
Bill
and
the
inflation
reduction
act
and
those
types
of
things
is
they
desperately
need
places
to
host
projects.
A
S
Mr
chairman,
we
have
been
talking
to
the
governor's
office
as
well
as
scr
kind
of
everybody
playing
in
that
space
is
the
best
way
to
go
about
that,
and
we
have
had
some
initial
conversations
with
doe
regarding
funding
for
infrastructure.
You
know
they
did
receive,
they
do
have
the
authorization
in
the
2020
Energy
bill
and
then
longer
term,
and
so
there
is
a
willingness
to
to
do
something,
and
it
brings
me
to
my
next
slide
as
some
of
the
challenges
of
how
we
get
there.
S
You
know
that,
like,
as
I
mentioned,
the
test
center
itself
was
authorizing
a
budget
footnote
back
from
2014
and
some
of
that
language
that
was
put
in
there.
At
that
time
we
have
found
to
make
operations
a
little
Troublesome,
specifically
some
of
the
intellectual
property
requirements
and
Provisions,
as
well
as
how
ownership
of
the
facility
is
structured.
S
S
You
know
the
ITC
stakeholders,
basic
electric
Tri-State,
certainly
the
Wyoming
based
electric.
You
know
they
do
want
to
see
this
grow
and
evolve.
National
carbon
capture
Center
started
back
in
the
90s
as
the
Power
Systems
development
facility.
Looking
at
you
know,
new
types
of
combustion
turbines
and
things
like
that
that
led
to
like
the
supercritical
technology
and
as
certain
technology
Milestones
were
met.
That
facility
has
evolved
two
or
three
times
and
and
the
ITC
may
need
to
do
that
as
well.
S
So
you
know
I
yeah
we've
been
working
closely
with
the
governor's
office
to
figure
out
exactly
what
that
road
map
looks
like
and
how
we
do
that.
But
we
do
have
some
challenges
in
the
fact
that
we
are
not
a
legal
yeah.
We
don't
have
the
same
sort
of
legal
status
as
say:
Ser,
ERI
and
even
ERC
in
North
Dakota,
but
we
we
do
work
really
closely
with
them.
H
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman
Mr,
bigger
I'm,
somewhat
familiar
with
removing
CO2
from
natural
gas,
and
we've
used
all
of
the
the
processes
that
you've
talked
about:
amine,
solvents
and
sorbent
and
membranes,
and
with
each
one
of
these
applications.
The
overall
problem
we've
had
is
with
with
filtration
because
of
contamination
and
plugging
of
the
media,
and
things
like
that
during
your
testing.
Are
you
also
experimenting
with
other
ways
to
remove
contaminants
to
make
these
different
processes
work
longer
and
more
effectively,
because
that
was
our
main
problem
in
natural
gas?
So.
S
Mr,
chairman
representative
heiner
I,
will
fully
admit
that
I
am
not
an
engineer.
I
am
not
the
technical
guy
on
the
ground.
I
I
know
enough
to
be
dangerous,
and
certainly
the
types
of
problems
that
you've
mentioned
are
the
problems
with
membranes
and
solvents
and
the
types
of
I
guess
questions
they're
trying
to
get
answered
to
do
that.
S
S
You
know
that
we
signed
ndas
with
them
and
and
we,
but
we
were
not
actively
a
part
of
their
research
team
in
their
group
and
and
following
the
exact
kind
of
Milestones
that
they're
that
that
they
meet
that
makes
sense.
Okay,.
T
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman,
in
looking
at
your
slide
that
says
looking
into
the
future
I'm
wondering,
is
there
an
opportunity
to
partner
with
say,
Ser
to
do
pass-through
Grant
as
these
funds
become
available
and
take
advantage
of
their
legal
structure
that
currently
exists?
Thank
you.
S
Mr,
chairman
representative
Sherbert,
absolutely
actually
this
morning
had
breakfast
with
the
director
of
scr
and
talking
a
little
bit
about
that.
And
that
is
one
of
the
options
that
the
governor
is
considering,
because
they
do
have
that
that
sort
of
expertise
and
capabilities
for
sure.
G
S
Mr,
chairman
representative
Burkhart,
so
what
you're
seeing
there
are
things
that
we
have
identified
as
amenities
and
benefits
that
could
help
entice
research
projects
and
what
we
plan
to
do
is
sit
down
a
doe
in
the
near
future.
It's
kind
of
an
A
La,
Carte
kind
of
approach,
here's
our
menu
of
things
that
we
have
identified
as
they're
thinking
about
how
they're
structuring
the
foas
and
the
research
grants
that
they
have.
What
of
those
make
the
most
sense.
S
So
all
of
them
some
of
them,
you
know,
maybe
they
have
their
own,
but
ultimately
that
would
be
put
forth
in
a
funding
request
to
to
doe.
You
know
that's
baked
in,
for
example,
if
you
did
use
Ser
as
sort
of
the
pass-through,
those
administrative
costs
would
have
to
be
baked
into
that
as
well,
and
also
so.
Technical
support
so
it'd
be
a
fairly
sizable
funding
request
to
doe
for
sure.
S
S
S
That
that
is
just
the
overall
cost
of
all
of
that.
You
know
the
the
hope
that
doesn't
include
any
administrative
costs.
Technical
support
I
mean
you're,
probably
60,
to
75
million
at
that
adding
those
things
in
it
would
be
an
80
20
cost
share.
So
if
you
went
to
doe
and
they're
willing
to
pick
up
80
of
that,
so
you
know
you're
down
to.
U
A
Okay,
all
right
all
right,
Mr
chairman,
all
right,
any
comments:
okay,
anybody!
Any
public
comment
on
the
integrated
test
center
from
anyone.
Okay,
we'll
close
that
I'm
going
to
the
reason
I
wanted
this
update
for
the
committee.
You
know
12
years
pushing
carbon
capture
I'd
like
to
see
us
stay
focused
on
this.
You
folks
from
Campbell
County
should
really
be
interested
in
it.
A
You
know,
as
we
start
to
see,
some
carbon
capture
occur
in
the
private
sector.
This
research
is
still
attracts
attention
to
Wyoming.
It's
good
research,
it's
a
way
to
find
a
better
solution
to
it,
but
this
the
history
of
this
we
go
back
we're
coming
up
on
about
a
decade
which
was
an
initiative
that
came
out
of
Governor
Mead's
office,
and
it
is
something
that
I
think
the
legislature.
A
If
this
is
what
the
future
legislature
wants
to
see,
an
initiative
move
forward
needs
to
keep
an
eye
on
it,
keep
a
hand
on
the
helm
and
make
sure
that
it
is
effective
and
not
just
something
standing
out
there.
That
would
keep
throwing
money
at,
but
something
that
is
netting
results
so
that
that
is
why
I
wanted
to
have
that
update.
For
all
of
you,
representative
gray,.
Q
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman
I
was
thinking
a
little
about
this,
as
we
were
going
on
what
you
were
saying.
I
mean
I'd
like
to
get
your
expertise
on
this
I
mean.
Do
you
have
any
thoughts
on
How
We,
Do
Roi
on
this
I
mean
how
the
legislature
could
do
it
I
mean.
Obviously
we
want
to
decouple
it
from
the
folks
managing
it
I'm
and
you
know,
what's
the
ROI,
what
have
we
gotten
from
this
since
2014
I'm?
A
And
so
let
me
let
me
give
you
an
analogy
on
my
first
year
and
12
years
ago
we
had
we
had
modeled
the
UPS
The
Rock
Springs
uplift
for
carbon
for
CO2
storage
right
on
an
extensive
modeling
project
that
quite
a
bit
of
money
went
into.
It
was
public
information.
We
end
up
not
being
able
to
test
it
because
the
prices
of
CO2
it
went
up
with
enhanced
soil
recovery.
A
But
yet,
when
we
start
to
talk
about,
some
of
the
companies
are
looking
at
coming
in
with
in
the
hydrogen
area,
in
particular,
and
think
of
that
type
of
research
that
was
out,
there
has
been
very
beneficial
to
start
drawing
people
in.
So
it's
again,
it's
one
of
those
research
things
that's
difficult
every
now
and
then
you
stumble
across
a
aha.
This
changes
the
whole
game,
whether
we're
using
absorption
technique
and
rather
than
the
solvent
it.
It
again,
I
think
you're.
A
Looking
at
researches
research,
you
hope
for
the
Magic
Bullet,
but
the
main
thing
is
is
to
keep
Wyoming
and
we
have
a
former
legislator
from
North
Dakota.
Here
you
know
I'll
just
say
our
call
is
far
superior
to
the
lignite
they're
trying
to
Peddle
in
North
Dakota,
but
yet
North
Dakota
is
way
out
ahead
of
us
in
terms
of
being
a
place
to
go
for
research
and
development
because
of
their
their
but
I
can't
their
Center
that
yeah
yeah
so
I.
A
Think
representative,
that's
just
something
for
our
legislature
to
be
thinking
about.
How
do
we?
How
do
we
make
Wyoming
and
for
some
partial
to
it,
but
Campbell
County,
one
of
those
areas
that
people
think
of
when
they
think
about
coal
and
think
about
moving
us
forward
with
energy.
We
go
okay,
so
with
that
we'll
go
ahead
and
move
on
too
and
Katie
I
see
that
you've
got
your
student
here.
So
the
next
item
on
our
agenda
and
we're
about
four
minutes
ahead
is
apprenticeships.
A
We
do
have
a
Bill
draft,
which
is
a
pretty
simple,
build
draft
but
Katie.
You
know
you
had
asked
me
a
favor
and
because
I'm
such
a
generous
person
that,
but
you
had
a
student,
you
wanted
to
come
and
have
say
a
few
words
to
our
committee
yeah.
So
please
come
forward
foreign.
U
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman
I'm
Katie
lagurski,
with
the
associated
Dental
contractors
of
Wyoming
I,
do
appreciate
the
time
and
allowing
us
to
go
first
today,
you
guys
have
heard
from
industry
you've
heard
from
businesses
on
this
particular
topic.
The
one
thing
that
you
have
not
heard
from
is
from
a
student
on
why
the
work
based
learning
opportunities
student
learner
Agreements
are
important.
Obviously,
these
type
of
programs
are
called
something
different,
whether
it's
on
the
job
training,
but
they
are
different
across
the
board.
U
L
Morning,
Mr,
chairman
and
members
of
the
committee,
my
name
is
Marco
glassic
and
I
am
a
high
school
senior,
not
knowing
what
I
wanted
to
do
after
high
school
was
a
huge
question.
I
had
entering
my
junior
year,
I
had
simply
no
clue
what
I
wanted
to
do
after
high
school
I
chose
to
take
a
class
through
Buffalo
High
School.
That
would
hopefully
put
me
on
track
to
find
my
interests.
L
L
I've
been
at
Farm
shop
and
wood
shop,
kid
all
through
high
school
I
love
working
on
projects
and
building
with
my
hands
and
I
decided
to
run
with
it.
Working
smart
is
set
into
two
categories,
the
first
being
an
internship
and
the
second
being
OJT
or
on-the-job
training.
My
teacher
was
soon
on
the
search
for
local
businesses
that
I
could
spend
weeks
with
at
a
time
shadowing
to
see
if
I
had
any
interest
in
a
particular
occupation.
L
Luckily,
I
had
another
teacher
approached
me
about
my
interests.
After
discussing
my
interests,
she
gave
me
the
phone
number
to
an
old
high
school
friend,
that
is
a
local
electrician
in
Buffalo.
I,
soon
took
the
time
to
call
up
Ruby
Electric
I
explained
what
I
was
interested
in
and
what
I
was
trying
to
achieve
through
the
working
smart
program.
L
I
started
the
following
week
by
observing
for
close
to
an
hour
a
day
and
I
want
to
know
what
the
day
looked
like
for
a
local
electrician
after
one
week
of
observing
I
returned
on
Monday
to
find
a
small
tool
belt,
with
the
bare
necessities
to
start
helping
out
around
job
sites.
I
look
forward
to
going
and
helping
out
every
day
and
by
the
end
of
my
semester,
I
was
heading
out
to
job
sites
and
getting
paid
to
help
with
the
work
that
I
was
allowed
to
do.
L
I
earned
a
summer
job
I
was
going
through
the
process
of
obtaining
my
first
electrical
Apprentice
car
I
returned
this
year
as
a
senior
and
started
the
process
of
OJT
I,
now
work
every
day
for
close
to
two
hours
during
the
school
day
and
have
recently
begun
working
on
classes
towards
my
journey
maintenance
exam
to
take,
hopefully
right
after
college.
None
of
this
would
have
been
possible
without
the
working
smart
program
at
Buffalo,
High
School.
L
G
L
Mr,
chairman
I
honestly
have
no
clue.
I,
like
I,
said:
I
love
being
a
farm.
Shopkin
I,
love,
building
stuff
in
wood
shop
as
well
and
I
was
a
little
bit
clueless
about
what
I
wanted
to
do
and
I
had
multiple
ideas,
but
I
truly
had
no
idea
until
I
actually
got
the
opportunity
to
go
and
experience
some
things
of
everyday
work.
Life
with
those
in
my
community
that
do
are
taking
those
activities
so.
G
L
I
would
I'm
currently
taking
classes
through
Central
Wyoming
College,
as
I
need
classes
before
I
can
take
my
journeyman's
exam
and
so
with
after
I
finish
all
my
classes
and
I
finish
all
the
required
hours.
I
will
be
taking
my
journeyman's
exam
and
then
hopefully
taking
my
masters
to
one
day
own
my
own
business.
Thank
you.
H
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman
Mr,
classic.
Thank
you
for
being
here.
I'm
sure
this
is
very
scary,
for
you
appreciate
your
courage
and
in
standing
forth
and
coming
in
front
of
this
committee.
But
one
of
the
things
that
we're
we're
concerned
about
is
getting
the
word
out
about
this
work.
Smart
program.
You
were
fortunate
that
one
of
one
of
your
instructors
alerted
you
to
the
fact
that
it's
out
there,
but
as
I've
discussed
this
with
officials
in
some
of
the
school
districts
they're,
not
even
aware
that
this
program
is
is
available.
L
Mr
chairman,
so
I
thought
I
wasn't
really
sure
about
this
opportunity.
At
first
and
working
with
our
counselors
through
the
high
school,
you
kind
of
talked
about
what
you
want
to
achieve:
After,
High
School
and
some
of
the
scholarships
you
want
to
be
able
to
experience
and
earn,
and
it
was
actually
brought
through
one
of
my
counselors
that
she
had
advocated
for
and
she
said,
I
want
you
to
give
this
a
try
and
being
a
small
town.
L
Wyoming
kid
I
thought
that
we
oftentimes
get
experiences
that
not
many
other
kids
get
to
experience
and
so
I
kind
of
talked
with
my
counselor
and
she
said.
There's
a
lot
of
kids
have
no
clue
what
they
really
want
to
do
after
high
school,
and
it
worries
a
lot
of
kids
and
it
worried
me
and
so
talk
to
my
guidance
counselor
and
she
offered
the
opportunity
to
maybe
go
find
somebody
in
the
community
to
help
guide
me
through
this
process.
A
L
Mr
chairman,
so
working
smart
is
a
class
at
Buffalo,
High,
School,
and
so
you
do
have
to
get
principal.
You
have
to
get
the
principal
to
write
off
on
it
and
you
do
have
to
set
up.
I've
got
a
whole
series
of
papers
that
I
have
to
sign.
Have
my
parents
sign,
and
so
I
do
have
friends
that
do
gain
experience
with
other
contractors
in
Buffalo
and
other
kids,
who
do
maybe
want
to
pursue
being
a
Rancher
one
day.
L
A
C
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman
I'm,
not
sure
about
that
at
any
rate,
Marco
is
this
a
part
of
your
dual
enrollment
program,
Mr
chairman.
C
And
so,
but
you
said
you
were
taking
the
courses
from
Mr
chairman
I'm.
Sorry
go
ahead.
You
said
that
you
were
taking
courses
from
Central
Wyoming
instead
of
Northern
Wyoming
Community
College
District.
Yes,.
C
Mr
chairman
one
last
question
is
personal
question:
is
your?
Is
your
dad
Ron
and
your
mom's
Angie?
Yes,
they
used
to
work
for
me
at
Twin,
Spruce,
not.
C
A
U
That
might
be
better
and
Mr
chairman
if
I'm
my
dad
too
one
of
the
nice
things
about
the
working
smart,
it's
just
not
in
the
trades.
There
are
individuals
from
that
course
who
has
gone
into
the
banking
industry.
They've
participated
in
the
medical
field.
It's
been
other
things
just
not
within
the
CT
around,
so
it
is
for
other
individuals
and
other
students
who
are
interested
in
pursuing
other
career
paths
outside
of
the
construction
trade.
So
it
is
a
complete
course
outside
of
just
the
typical
what
people
think
of
just
the
truth.
U
But
it
is
an
opportunity,
but
I
do
appreciate
your
guys's
latitude
and
and
letting
Marco
go
a
little
earlier.
Just
in
case
you
guys
were
running
out
of
time
and
he
needed
to
get
back
to
get
back.
A
U
A
Very
much
so
what
we,
what
we
really
do
have
here
is
a
bill
draft
Brian.
You
want
to
knock
that
out
for
us
and
then
we
do
have
Workforce
Services
here
represented
from
the
Department
of
Education.
We'll
take
some
public
comment:
we're
not
going
to
be
able
to
do
the
whole
Gambit
of
of
you
know
of
apprenticeships
and
and
training
OJT.
We
keep
our
comments
to
the
bills.
Any
positive
movement,
though,
we'll
be
more
than
happy
to
hear
it.
So
Mr
Fuller.
If
you
want
to
help.
Oh
chairman.
R
R
This
Bill
creates
a
new
Duty
for
the
Department
of
Workforce
Services
they're
required
to
provide
information
to
school
district,
Boards
of
Trustees
unavailable,
apprenticeship,
student
learner
agreements
and
on-the-job
trainings
for
students
for
both
pay
and
credit
or
both,
and
that
does
include
information
on
the
rights
and
responsibilities
of
school
districts,
employers
and
students
under
state
and
federal
law,
as
well
as
available
state
and
federal
financial
assistance
for
placement
of
students.
In
these
various
programs.
R
There
is
a
report
required
by
the
Department
of
Workforce
Services
not
later
than
October
1st
of
each
year
to
this
committee
and
the
joint
education
committee
on
the
information
that
they've
provided
to
school
districts
as
required
and
along
with
that,
there
is
a
new
Duty
for
Boards
of
Trustees
for
school
districts.
They
have
to
establish
guidelines
to
implement
student
training
and
employment
programs
in
the
school
district,
using
that
information
from
the
Department
of
Workforce
Services,
and
that
information
must
be
widely
disseminated
within
their
District.
R
H
R
Chairman
and
representative
heiner,
as
it
reads
right
now,
this
is
to
provide
it
to
school
districts.
I,
don't
believe
it
would
community.
A
A
Yeah
they
will
I,
don't
so,
let's
go
ahead.
Director
you're
here:
let's
get
your
comments
from
you
and
your
team
and.
V
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman
members
of
the
committee.
My
name
is
Robin
Cooley
and
I'm,
the
director
of
the
Wyoming
Department
of
Workforce
Services,
and
it's
my
privilege
to
be
here
today
with
one
of
my
administrators
Miss,
Holly,
McKamey
Simone.
She
is
my
administrator
of
the
workforce
programs
division
within
our
office,
which
is
the
division
that
houses,
the
business,
training
and
support
unit,
which
includes
our
apprenticeship
unit.
V
V
Our
our
office
has
reviewed
the
draft
legislation
and
it's
it's
fairly
easy
to
implement
for
us.
I
think
there's
no
problems
with
it.
We
don't
have
any
issues
with
it
and
I
think
it's
it's
something
that
we
can
definitely
do.
We've
got
programs
that
we
would
be
more
than
happy
to
tout
and
to
talk
to
both
not
only
work
with
the
Wyoming
Department
of
Education,
but
also
speak
with
the
Board
of
Trustees,
with
the
school
districts
about
and
work
with
them
to
implement
in
in
the
school
districts.
V
To
the
extent
that
we
can,
with
your
permission,
if
we
could
well,
let
me
just
start
with
in
2019,
our
agency
did
apply
for
and
did
receive,
What's
called
the
apprenticeship
expansion
Grant
from
the
U.S
Department
of
Labor,
and
it's
at
that
time
that
we
really
started
to
focus
on
apprenticeships
within
our
office.
V
That's
when
we
were
able
to
develop
a
unit
within
our
office
and
we're
able
to
hire
some
individuals
that
were
really
able
to
work
on
this.
This
effort,
and
with
your
permission,
I'd
really
like
to
ask
Miss
McKamey
Simone,
to
provide
you
with
some
general
information
on
the
opportunities
that
we've
really
been
able
to
build
out
around
the
state
so
that
you
have
an
idea
of
what
those
internship
apprenticeship
opportunities
are
that
we
would
be
able
to
speak
with
these
school
districts
about
and
these
Board
of
Trustees
about
around
the
state.
So
with.
A
The
information
just
want
anybody
have
any
questions
for
the
director
I,
so
I
want
to.
You
know
this
I
hate
to
Hate
to
pass
legislation
that
tells
an
agency
to
go.
Do
this
when
you're
kind
of
doing
it
anyway,
so
I
think
I.
Think
if
I
recall
our
discussion
and
was
how
do
we
bring
some
attention?
We've
got
a
lot
of
work
to
do
in
the
state
in
this
whole
sphere
and
I.
Think
it's
something.
A
We've
got
to
put
a
tremendous
amount
of
focus
on
and
I
think
maybe
that
was
sort
of
the
goal
here
was
to
get
us
rejuvenated,
get
get
your
department
focused
in
on
it
again
and
then
just
bring
some
more
attention
to
it,
not
just
with
your
department,
Department
of
Education
and
districts
around
the
state,
so
that
I
hope
I
hope
you
take
it.
In
light
of
that.
V
And
yes,
Mr,
chairman
members
of
the
committee
I
certainly
do
and
I
I
just
want
to
also
recognize
the
Department
of
Education.
We've
got
the
next
gen
sector
Partnerships
that
are
out
there
doing
the
same
thing,
particularly
with
construction
industry
and
a
number
of
healthcare
Industries
Financial
Industries
they're
doing
that
around
the
state
as
well.
We've
got
the
wac
D,
the
organization
that
is
around
the
state
doing
the
same
thing
so
I
think
we've
got
a
number
of
industries
that
are
coming
together
that
recognize
the
need
for
this.
V
This
is
the
that
them
I
I,
I
I,
don't
know
if
this
is
the
correct
word.
This
is
the
Mantra.
This
is
the.
This
is
something
that
that
individuals
within
this
area
recognize
is
a
need
in
this
state
and
so
I
think
there
are
a
lot
of
Industries
a
lot
of
areas
that
are
focusing
on
it
around
the
state.
W
The
number
of
apprenticeship
programs
in
Wyoming
currently
is
88
and
we
have
396
apprentices
in
Wyoming
and
I.
Think
it's
important
to
mention
that
43
of
that
number
is
youth
so
and
that
youth
is
ages.
Eight
excuse
me
16
to
24.,
so
that
does
serve
that
High
School
population
and
into
college
then,
as
well
or
into
higher
ed.
We
currently
have
44
different
occupations
registered
under
the
Department
of
Labor
and
just
to
give
you
an
idea
of
what
we're
working
on
and
what
we
have
been
doing
in
our
school
systems.
W
This
great
team
behind
me
does
a
lot
of
high
school
presentations.
They
go
to
and
do
lunch
booths.
They
participate
in
those
senior
nights.
They
do
virtual
apprenticeship,
q,
a
events
and
collaborate
with
those
high
school
counselors
and
those
academic
advisors
and
then
they've
also
been
participating
with
Department
of
Ed.
The
career
in
Tech,
education
group
and
they've
done
Workforce
Wednesdays,
where
they're
on
there
on
a
weekly
basis
and
really
talking
about
the
opportunities
with
those
students.
W
Our
director
just
mentioned
our
apprenticeship
grant
that
did
Sunset
recently
in
June,
but
that
was
a
three-year
Grant
and
we
served
131
participants
and
42
of
those
were
youth.
We
also
have
our
Workforce
Development
training,
apprenticeship,
Grant
and
that
pays
for
that
related
instruction
and
educational
component,
so
that
can
be
online.
That
can
be
a
community
college
that
can
also
be
in-house
If
an
employer
has
a
a
trainer,
that's
that's
highly
qualified
and
skilled.
W
We
serve
67
apprentices
with
that
training,
Grant
and
obligated
a
little
over
178
000
since
July
of
this
year.
I
wanted
to
give
you
a
quick
example
of
a
success
story
that
utilized
both
grants,
and
we
had
a
youth
Apprentice
in
I.T
and
Laramie,
and
he
was
in
a
program
there.
That's
I.T
focused,
and
he
graduated
this
year
as
an
I.T
cyber
security
technician.
He
was
19
and
he
is
the
first
and
youngest
to
graduate
in
that
program.
So
that
was
quite
a
success.
W
What
we're
focused
on
and
have
been
focused
on
is
the
apprenticeships
in
plumbing
electrical
HVAC
and
nit,
and
then
we
have
newly
developed
apprenticeships,
the
teacher
apprenticeship
that
we
helped
support
that
wde
led
the
way
on
and
then
we're
also
focusing
on
Health
Care,
and
we
have
a
CNA
program
that
we've
stood
up
on
the
horizon.
We
have
a
new
healthcare
apprenticeship
for
Prosthetics,
lineman,
nursing,
geothermal
technology,
culinary
early
childhood
and
Mining,
and
so
that's
just
kind
of
a
quick
overview.
We've
got
some
handouts,
we've
got
our
experts
behind
us.
A
Nope
I
think
we'll
keep
I
can't
think
we'll
keep
moving
through
some
stuff,
but
Senator,
wassenberger
and
I
will
have
a
question
on
your
apprenticeship
program
with
an
idea.
I
have
okay.
A
X
I
appreciate
that
also,
thank
you
next
to
me
is
Dr
Michelle
Aldridge
and
she
supports
our
department
as
the
Career
and
Technical
Education
team
supervisor.
We
wanted
to
provide
you
with
really
three
points
this
morning.
The
first
one
is
around
the
data
that
we
collect
at
the
Department
of
Education
from
school
districts.
X
The
second
would
be
around
some
of
the
professional
development
and
the
information
that
we
disseminate
and
then
thirdly,
just
the
opportunities
and
the
stakeholders
that
we
meet
with
regarding
this
work,
so
the
first
thing
I
will
share
with
you
is
just
the
information
that
we
collect
at
the
department
and
what
we
look
at
is
any
student.
That
is
a
concentrator.
That
would
mean
any
course
that
they
took
in
a
sequence
of
two
related
to
Career
and
Technical
education,
and
then
we
also
look
at
work
based
learning
opportunities
that
students
take.
X
We
collect
that
information
and
then,
finally,
we
look
at
any
credentials.
So
if
a
student
does
collect
or
take
an
exam
that
would
make
them
industry
certified.
There
are
those
two
requirements,
the
two
courses
that
they
take
and
then
the
industry
certification.
That's
what
we
call
a
student
is
post-secondary,
ready
or
career
ready.
So
when
we
think
about
educating
our
students
and
moving
them
on
out
into
the
workforce,
we
give
them
options.
Y
Thank
you,
chairman
Greer
and
members
of
the
committee.
We
have.
We
really
appreciate
this
opportunity
to
visit
with
you
about
work
based
learning
and
these
opportunities.
This
bill
is
a
great
starting
point
for
something
that
we've
been
working
on
the
entire
four
years
that
I've
been
at
the
department
and
a
lot
of
times.
Thanks
to
the
impetus
of
Representative
Greer,
we
I
have
some
concerns.
We
have
been
doing
a
lot
of
work
based
or
a
lot
of
professional
development
around
these
topics.
We've
been
laying
the
groundwork
for
this.
Y
When
I
first
came
into
this
position,
there
was
there
have
been
endorsements
in
the
past
that
teachers
could
earn
and
have
attached
to
their
license
where
they
could
oversee
work
based
learning
or
sometimes,
as
it
was
called
work,
Co-op
learning
back
in
the
80s
and
90s.
However,
in
the
early
90s,
the
University
of
Wyoming
quit
offering
the
three
courses
that
were
required
to
receive
that
endorsement.
Y
So,
as
you
can
imagine,
by
2020
2021
22
many
of
those
teachers
who
earned
that
industry
or
that
endorsement
to
their
teaching
license
have
since
retired,
and
we
really
had
what
was
really
going
on.
Was
the
Wild
Wild
West
out
there
we
had
teachers
who
did
not
have
any
endorsement
that
were
awarding
work,
study
credit
outside
of
their
content
area.
We
had
secretaries
who
were
accepting
pay
stubs
in
exchange
for
credit
for
students
working,
and
so
we
worked
really
this
a
lot.
Y
Y
We've
been
working
on
training,
teachers
and
individuals
around
the
state
that
have
a
pick
permit
in
order
to
teach
Career
and
Technical
education
to
be
able
to
award
work
study
credit,
making
sure
that
there's
some
sort
of
a
learning
component
to
go
with
that
work-based
learning
information
have
done
as
director
Cooley
alluded
to
workshops
called
Workforce
Wednesdays
with
our
colleagues
from
the
Department
of
Workforce
Services
we've
had
numerous
one-on-one
meetings
over
the
last
four
years.
Each
year
we
meet
with
every
District
one-on-one.
We
talk
about
the
student
learner
agreement
that
was
brought
forth.
Y
I
will
tell
you
that
I
just
visited
with
a
colleague
at
Department
of
Workforce
Services
this
morning
to
find
out
how
many
were
student
learner
agreements
and
how
many
districts
have
utilized
that
opportunity
and
was
told
that,
since
its
Inception
there's
been
one
district
and
one
student
that
has
actually
filed
that
form.
Y
Even
though
we've
talked
to
All
48
districts
about
that
I
believe
that,
as
you
heard
from
Marcos
this
morning,
there
might
be
a
misconception
that
he
was
involved
in
that
student
learner
agreement
situation
and
his
opportunity
actually
happened
outside
of
the
student
learner
agreement.
There's
a
lot
of
work
based
learning
going
on
around
the
state
that,
where
that
opportunity
or
that
resource
isn't
being
fully
utilized,
we
also
I'm.
A
A
Y
Y
For
instance,
in
2021
2022
districts
reported
zero
students
and
apprenticeships
and
in
2020
2021
there
were
53.
So
it
would
be
really
helpful
if
we
could
align
our
definitions
with
for
this
bill
with
the
Department
of
Workforce
Services,
so
that
we
can
actually
get
you.
Accurate
numbers
and
districts
know
what
they
need
to
be
reporting.
That
would
be
really
helpful
as
well.
Y
I.
Think,
probably
most
of
you
know
that
youth
employment
as
a
is
at
an
all-time
low,
historically
nationally
for
a
variety
of
reasons,
and
that
was
even
declining
since
that
it
was
declining
prior
to
covid.
Y
Our
goal
is
that
every
student
would
have
an
opportunity
to
have
a
work-based
learning
experience
before
they
graduate
the
State.
Board
of
Education
has
been
doing
a
lot
of
work
around
profiles
of
a
graduate,
and
that's
one
of
the
things
that
they've
been
hearing
from
Employers
in
business
and
industry
and
stakeholders
about
the
need
for
students
to
have
work
experience
opportunities.
Y
So
while
this
is
a
great
start,
I
think
that
this
would
give
a
lot
of
Direction
and
guidance
to
local
districts.
I
think
that
there
are
some
opportunities
where
we
can
increase
its
effectiveness.
A
What
committee
any
questions
here
go
ahead,
we'll
go
with
representative,
heinrude
and
gray.
H
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman
Dr,
Aldrich
I
appreciate
your
your
efforts
and
and
the
success
you're
having
with
this
program
we
as
a
legislature,
we
love
to
pass
laws.
We
go
home
at
the
end
of
the
day
and
Pat
ourselves
on
the
back.
If
we
pass
laws
but
as
I
as
I
read
over
this
and
as
I
hear
your
testimony,
you're
already
doing
many
many
of
these
things
for
for
learner
students
and
for
apprenticeships
will
this
bill,
as
we've
drafted,
actually
help
you
or
is
it?
Y
One
who
does
not
allow
any
credit
for
work-based
learning
opportunities
and
the
concern
that
that
district
has
is
that
it
will
impact
their
elective
ftes
for
teachers
who
teach
electives
and
work-based
learning
a
lot
of
times
in
a
district
is
given
elective
credit
and
so
I
think
it's
a
great
starting
point.
I
think
it
definitely
renews
the
conversation.
It
gives
impetus
to
districts
to
be
able
to
get
this
and
requires
them
to
get
that
information
out.
Y
I
think
that
you
know
getting
it
to
school
counselors
and
specifying
school
counselors
might
be
better
than
just
saying
to
disseminate
it
and
amongst
the
district,
as
is
in
line
22
of
under
Section
A,
where
it
says
widely
disseminated
within
the
district.
I.
Think
that
leaves
a
lot
of
opportunities
just
to
hang
posters
in
the
hallways
and
hope
that
kids
are
going
to
get
it
through
osmosis.
Y
But
I
think
that
it's
a
great
starting
point
and
I
think
that
it
would
really
direct
districts
that
they
need
to
have
a
policy
in
place
and
it
really
quite
honestly,
representative
heiner,
becomes
an
equity
issue
when
we
have
some
districts
where
students
are
allowed
to
earn
up
to
three
elective
credits
for
graduate
towards
graduation
through
work
experience,
and
we
have
some
districts
who
allow
nothing.
Q
V
Thank
you,
Mr,
chairman
representative
gray.
A
registered
apprenticeship
is
one
registered
and
approved
through
the
Department
of
Labor.
Those
are
the
those
are
the
registered
apprenticeships
that
we
deal
with
and
that
we
work
with.
I
Q
V
V
Absolutely
Mr,
chairman
representative
gray,
the
student
learner
agreement
was:
was
new
legislation
passed
in
2021
where,
for
because
of
Department
of
Labor
legislation
or
rules,
there
were
17
different
classifications
that
individuals
could
only
be
it
had
to
be
18
or
over
in
order
to
work
in
in
those
different
Industries
by
enacting
a
student
learner
legislation,
seven
of
those
different
Industries
than
if
you
were
signed,
a
student
learner
agreement,
seven
of
those
different
seven
of
those
Industries,
those
individuals
could
work
in.
V
So
the
student
learner
agreement
is
something
that
allows
workers
compensation
coverage
for
those
individuals
in
those
in
those
different
Industries
in
those
seven
Industries
and
the
student
learner
agreement
is
actually
something
that's
an
act,
that's
signed
between
the
employer
and
the
the
school
district,
and
then
it's
submitted
to
workers
compensation.
So
there's
coverage
for
that
individual
employee.
A
So,
representative
gray,
for
example,
if
you
wanted
to
bring
in
a
high
school
student
and
have
them
work
in
your
fabrication,
shop
or
weld,
the
OSHA
regulations
would
prohibit.
Interestingly
enough,
they
can
weld,
but
they
can't
use
a
hand
grinder.
Well,
if
you
want
to
make
a
welder
mad,
is
let's
let
somebody
Weld
and
not
have
to
grind
their
own
work.
So
part
of
how
this
came
in
is
in
the
ocean
rules
itself
is,
if
you
haven't.
A
It
was
dubbed
the
language
of
a
student
learner
agreement
with
the
school
district
in
place
with
the
employer
that
that
student
could
work
with
and
train
with
a
mentor
within
your
shop,
and
that
was
just
a
reason
to
get
that
codified
and
then
out
there.
So
industry
in
more
particular
school
districts
were
afraid
of
the
liability
issue.
So
that's
and
we
run
that
I,
don't
think
you
run
the
committee
when
we
run
that
through
three
years
ago,
or
something
like
that.
Q
I
I
like
having
the
statute
books
clear
on
the
duties
of
agencies
and
I,
think
the
agencies
take
what
the
statute
books
say
very
clear,
very
seriously,
so
I
think
it's
always
good
to
be
updating
that
I
actually
think
one
of
the
agencies
that
needs
some
work
is
Wyoming,
Business,
Council
and
I
I
wish
we
could
have
gotten
a
little
more
movement
on
that
over
the
last
couple
years
on
their
statutes,
but
anyway,
what
I?
What
I
think
is
missing
a
little
in
this
bill
is,
is
linking
and
I
know.
Q
The
first
paragraph
mentions
this
but
school
credit
to
the
registered
apprenticeship
programs
and
the
student
learner
agreements.
So
I
guess
my
question
is:
how
often
are
those
two
not
linked
to
course
credit
because
I
think
that's
always
very
important
in
getting
buy-in
on
the
districts,
not
just
them
advertising
a
potential
apprenticeship,
but
linking
it
to
some
kind
of
on
the
ground
course
something
that's
happening
on
the
ground.
That's
when
I
think
it
really
really
advances
a
little
bit.
How
often,
is
that
not
there?
Thank
you.
Y
Well,
thank
you
for
that
question.
The
I
will
tell
you
that,
because
there
are
a
lot
of
different
types
of
work
based
learning
and
because
Workforce
Services
and
the
Department
of
Education
don't
necessarily
use
the
same
definitions
or
the
same
terminology.
It
is
a
moving
Target.
I
will
tell
you
that
districts
in
2020
2021
reported
that
10
1039
students
were
involved
in
work
based
learning
in
2122
707
students
were
involved
in
work
based
learning,
and
then
it
also
breaks
it
out
there.
Y
In
addition
to
that,
they
report
out
apprenticeships
internships,
Cooperative
education
and
school-based
Enterprises
along
with
other,
so
it
it's
it's
difficult
to
know
from
the
the
district
or
the
state
level.
How
many
of
those
students
in
each
district
are
receiving
credit.
Q
Okay,
yeah
go
ahead,
yeah.
Thank
you
Mr
chairman.
Is
there
any
ideas
from
the
individuals
testifying
on
how
we
could
incentivize
Workforce
Services
to
incentivize
districts?
To
include
course,
credit
is
linked
in
this
bill
because
I
think
that's
really
important.
Thank
you.
Y
We
do
have,
through
the
Wyoming
Department
of
Education
ways
to
incentivize
districts,
with
levers
for
funding
and
without
putting
out
additional
funding.
There
are
things
that
we
can
Implement
through,
for
instance
our
Perkins
five-state
plan
that
creates
a
lever
for
making
sure
that
that
happens.
V
Mr,
chairman
representative
gray,
I'm,
going
to
have
to
think
on
that
for
us
to
have
incentives
for
school
districts
that
it
might
be
something
we
can
come
up
with.
I'd
need
to
think
about
that
I
I.
Think
our
incentives
right
now
are
are
the
the
monies
the
money
behind
it.
We
we
have,
for
instance,
internships
that
were
that
we
are
able
to
provide
funding
for
we're
having
arpa
proposal
in
right.
V
Now,
that's
going
through
the
vetting
process
for
pre-apprenticeships
that
would
lead
the
pre-apprenticeships,
then
would
lead
into
the
apprenticeship
and
and
like
the
the
young
man
that
that
that
visited
with
us
this
morning.
That
would
you
know,
help
him
walk
through
those
different
processes
and
then
lead
him
right
into
that
apprenticeship
right
out
of
college.
So
we've
got
some
different
options
in
the
works,
but
I
don't
know
that
we
would
have
any
way
to
incentivize
the
school
district,
but
we
can
think
on
it.
It
certainly
will.
A
Sure
so
I
don't
want
to
speak
for
representative
gray,
but
this
has
been
a
a
conversation
that
we've
had
again
again
and
really,
you
know
Industries
not
even
looking
for
the
incentives
it
helps
and
they'll
take
advantage
of
that.
What
we're
all
looking
for
that
is
one
for
the
districts
to
be
motivated
to
participate
in
these
programs
motivated
to
get
these
kids
that
want
to
do
something
differently.
So
that's
the
incentive
is
not
to
jeopardize
their
funding
model
because
they're
doing
it.
A
The
nice
thing
is,
is
just
what
is
the
clear
path
forward
and
I
think
the
frustration
with
this
whole
universe
of
issues
and
why
this
bill
comes
up
is
says:
hey,
let's
do
this
and
let's
talk
about
it
and
start
talking
together
and
communicate,
it
is
all
this
bill
is
doing
and
but,
quite
frankly,
it
isn't
more
money.
It's
just
get
the
path
laid
out.
What
how
what
holes
do?
We
have
to
step
in
Mr.
V
Mr,
chairman
representative
gray,
one
more
thing
if
I
may
the
bigger
incentive-
if
we
can
look
at
this
as
a
broad,
a
broad
stroke
and
a
future,
a
future
incentive
for
Wyoming.
What
this
does
potentially
is
provide
the
pathway
for
our
young
people
to
stay
in
Wyoming
because
it
provides
them
the
Avenue
into
a
job,
a
good
paying
job
in
Wyoming,
so
they're
not
going
to
leave
and
that
that
I
think
all
of
us
can
agree
is
is
a
very
valuable
incentive.
V
A
All
right,
yeah,
representative
Sherwood,
thank
you.
T
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman,
just
a
quick
question
to
follow
up
on
representative
Gray's
Point
about
tracking
which
districts
are
offering
course
credit.
Is
that
something
that
could
be
added
to
the
Wyoming
Department
of
education's?
You
talked
about
the
data
that
you
collect.
T
Could
that
just
be
a
question
that
is
expanded
as
you're
gathering
this
information
from
the
school
districts
under
the
Wyoming
accountability
and
Education
Act?
Thank
you.
D
D
Y
Chairman
Greer
through
you
to
representative
ire.
Yes,
this
does
put
the
impetus
on
the
school
district
and
the
school
board
to
get
that
information
disseminated
amongst
their
District
again.
I
think
that
we
could
probably
help
to
provide
some
ideas
on
individuals
to
get
that
information
too.
That
would
be
key,
such
as
school
counselors
that
are
doing
the
students
schedules.
Y
I.
Think
the
bigger
picture
is
that
by
gathering
that
and
having
Workforce
Services
gather
that
information
is
going
to
be
consistent,
it's
going
to
be
complete
and
it's
going
to
be
accurate,
which
I
think
when
we
leave
districts
to
themselves
to
go
out
and
gather
that
information.
Y
It
takes
a
lot
more
time
and
it
may
not
be
as
effective
or
as
complete,
and
so
by
having
one
document,
that's
provided
to
the
district
by
Workforce
Services
each
year
before
October
1st
I
believe
the
bill
says
we
can
assure
that
students
across
the
state
are
getting
the
same.
Information
can
and
we
would
hope
it
would
be
consistent
information,
but
hopefully
they
would
be
getting
it
through.
Y
Y
A
Okay,
all
right
any
further
questions.
Okay,
thank
you.
Thank
you
for
your
comments.
Okay,
do
we
have
public
testimony
on
this
yep
come
on
up.
This
is
Lancey.
Z
Good
morning,
members
of
the
committee,
my
name,
is
Cindy
Delancey
I'm,
the
president
of
the
Wyoming
business
Alliance,
and
it's
so
nice
to
be
back
in
front
of
you,
I
always
enjoy
being
with
this
committee,
and
especially
as
our
chairman
winds
down
his
tenure.
We
hate
to
see
him
go
and
again
just
want
to.
Thank
you
for
your
work
and
your
service,
and
your
leadership.
Z
You've
had
an
exceptional
impact
on
our
state,
and
this
topic
is
is
really
one
of
those
examples
of
the
work
of
your
chairman
and
as
well
as
others,
but
I
know
this
committee
hears
so
many
important
issues
to
our
state.
You
know
listening
to
the
discussion
this
morning
and
this
one
seems
to
be
coming
back
all
the
time
this
one
in
in
the
scale
of
importance.
Z
You
know,
for
some
of
the
reasons
that
were
just
articulated
by
our
agency
leaders
and
Department
of
Education
should
remain
a
focus
and
topic
of
the
work
of
this
committee,
even
as
our
our
chairman
is
no
longer
in
that
seat.
To
guide
these
discussions,
chairman
Greer
has
worked
on
these
issues
for
years.
They
keep
coming
back
and
I.
Think
that
representative
gray
really
highlighted
some
of
the
complexities.
You
know
the
questions
that
representative
gray
was
just
asking.
Those
are
the
questions
that
are
asked
daily
by
members
of
the
business
Community,
the
education
Community,
the
workforce.
Z
You
know,
students,
people
want
to
find
a
path
forward,
and
that's
you
know
really
where
your
Chairman's
comments
as
far
as
like
this
bill
helps
us
get
that
path.
We
need
that
path.
We
have
everybody
kind
of
disconnected,
no
matter
how
hard
it
feels
like
people
are
trying
and
I
want
to
give
exceptional
credit
and
shout
out
to
the
people
that
have
been
committed
to
working
on
improving
that
path
and
carving
that
path.
Z
Director
Cooley
and
her
team,
excellent
Department
of
Education-
and
you
know,
with
Dr
Aldridge,
leading
the
path,
excellent
Katie,
ligurski
and
her
organization
of
contractors.
Excellent.
You
know
like
it's
not
for
lack
of
trying
we're
all
trying
really
really
really
hard
to
figure
out
what
that
path
is.
You
know,
I
think
that
also
representative
air,
you
know
brought
out
the
800
pound
gorilla
in
the
room.
You
know
we're
in
this
place
where
who
wants
to
tell
whom?
Z
What
to
do,
but
we
keep
coming
back
to
that
this
committee
and
from
a
policy
standpoint
it
it
sounds
to
me
like
the
legislature,
is
wanting
more
and
I
just
want
to
draw
you
back
to
the
comments
from
Dr
Aldrich.
This
is
an
equity
issue.
Every
child
in
this
state
should
have
the
opportunity
to
get
credit
for
work-based
learning,
regardless
of
the
impact
to
other.
You
know
curriculum
in
the
district
like
like
that,
should
not
be
the
driving
force
behind
how
our
districts
are
making
decisions.
Z
We
should
be
student
focused
and
working
on
developing
our
our
Workforce,
so
Wyoming
can
remain
a
leader
in
the
nation
and
in
the
region
to
be
able
to
employ
and
keep
our
children
here
for
future
Generations.
So
if
this
you
know,
Bill
is
what
it
takes
to
kind
of
Define
roles
and
responsibilities.
That's
really
what
the
legislature
is
good
at
setting
those
expectations
identifying.
Who
is
to
do
what,
in
what
regard
and
I
think
that
this
is
a
great
starting
point?
Z
I
know
that
there's
a
lot
more
work
to
be
done,
but
if
this
is
what
it
takes
to
help
us
get
that
path.
My
members
really
want
to
see
that
level
of
clarity
and
accountability
and
responsibility
for
all
parties.
In
this
conversation,
not
just
the
state
agencies
or
the
districts
or
the
department,
you
know
everybody
equally
shares
the
the
role
the
lift
here
to
really
get
us
across
the
finish
line
and
I
I
just
again
want
to
highlight
to
you
on
page
three
line.
Z
22
I
agree
completely
with
the
testimony
that
you
just
heard
from
Dr
Aldridge
about
using
words
language
of
widely
disseminated
within
the
district.
I
would
ask
that,
as
this
committee
works
this
bill,
that
we
have
a
little
bit
more
prescriptive
of
what
that
really
means.
Does
that
mean
just
buried
on
a
website
somewhere?
Or
does
that
mean?
You
know
paper
in
hand
of
a
school
counselor
or
CTE
Educators
you're
like
getting
that
information
actually
in
the
hands
of
the
people
who
who
are
best
equipped
within
that
structure
of
District?
Z
To
actually
do
something
with
the
information
to
help
eliminate
that
disconnect
of
you
know,
as
representative
heiner
said,
patterning
ourself
on
the
back
thinking
that
we're
doing
a
good
thing
when,
in
the
end
you
know,
maybe
we're
we're.
Not
quite
getting
to
the
heart
of
the
matter,
so
I
I
know.
This
is
a
great
launching
point.
I
hope
that
this
committee
continues
to
elevate
the
importance
of
this
topic.
Z
The
way
that
chairman
Greer
has
and
again
the
members
of
the
Wyoming
business
Alliance
stand
as
ready
and
willing
Partners
to
be
able
to
help,
in
the
conversation
to
help
nail
down
that
path
to
get
that
path
correct.
So
with
that
Mr
chairman
I'm,
happy
to
address
any
questions,
and
once
again
thank
you
for
your
continued
work
and
effort
on
this
topic.
A
Z
One
final
comment:
I
just
want
to
remind
you
all
that
the
governor's
business
forum
is
coming
up.
November
15th
through
the
17th
in
Laramie.
One
of
your
colleagues
is
going
to
be
a
speaker.
We're
so
excited
to
have
her
I
hope
you
all
can
join
us
and
I
look
forward
to
seeing
you
then.
AA
There
we
go
good
morning,
Mr,
chairman
and
committee
members.
My
name
is
Brenda
Morgan
I
am
the
training
director
for
this
Wyoming
Statewide
electrical
apprenticeship
program
based
in
Casper
I,
just
want
to
share
with
representative
gray
I
was
thrilled
when
I
saw
this
bill.
Our
partnership
program
has
actually
been
a
registered
apprenticeship
program
with
the
Department
of
Labor
in
Wyoming
since
1965.
AA
when
I
started
working
for
the
apprenticeship
I
may
have
shared
this
with
you.
Previously
I
was
shocked
to
find
out
that
this
apprenticeship
had
been
in
the
state.
I
was
like.
Why
didn't
I
know
about
it
in
high
school,
so
I'm,
very
passionate
about
sharing
with
students
not
just
about
our
apprenticeship
program
but
upon
apprenticeship
in
general.
Throughout
the
state
I
have
passion,
will
travel
I
was
in
Cheyenne
yesterday
and
the
day
before,
for
the
classroom
to
careers
conference,
which
was
so
amazing.
AA
It
had
industry,
it
had
post-secondary
K-12
people
there,
as
well
as
individuals
like
myself,
in
training
talking
about
career
Readiness
for
our
students,
so
so
passionate
about
this
and
so
thrilled
to
see
that
this
discussion
is
happening
about
apprenticeships.
So
I
think
this
is
a
wonderful
start.
I
do
agree
that
we
do
name
to
make
it
a
little
bit
more
specific
how
this
is
disseminated
through
the
schools.
AA
AA
Just
a
quick
note,
National
apprenticeship
week,
Department
of
Labor
is
recognizing
apprenticeship
since
for
night
for
85
years,
ours
of
course,
has
been
here
since
1965.,
so
I
encourage
you
to
check
out
your
local
apprenticeships
in
your
back
door.
We
are
here
in
Casper.
During
the
week
it's
November
14th
through
the
20th.
We
are
actually
having
an
open
house
at
our
apprenticeship,
so
any
students
that
want
to
stop
by
and
visit
or
any
representatives
of
like
to
visit
our
campus
you're.
More
than
welcome
to
do
that.
But
again,
thank
you.
Just
thank
you.
AB
Yes,
thank
you.
Mr
chairman
Miss,
Morgan
I
appreciate
your
passion
about
this.
This
subject
and
I'm
just
curious.
If
you
had
any
ideas
about
how
we
could
be
more
clear
and
more
specific
about
widely
disseminating
this
information
since
you've
been
in
the
schools.
AA
You
know
yourself
for
our
program.
We
currently
have
98
apprentices,
so
we
are,
if
not
the
largest
apprenticeship
registered
apprenticeship
in
the
state
Word
of
Mouth
word
of
mouth
is
the
number
one
recruitment
tool
for
our
program.
If
not
former
electricians,
family
friends,
I
was
actually
visiting
with
the
young
gentleman
who
was
speaking
to
you
to
his
dad
out
in
the
lobby
about
the
program
he
had
never
heard
about
our
program.
So
speaking
to
kids.
AA
One-On-One
first
of
all
is
probably
the
number
one
recruitment
too
other
than
that
you
know
showing
them
giving
them
examples
showing
them
what
it
can
do
for
you.
My
husband
went
through
the
program
27
years
ago.
He
is
still
an
electrician
in
the
states.
My
stepson
is
going
through
the
program
he'll
graduate
in
May.
It's
a
viable
option
to
stay
in
the
state,
even
possibly
start
your
own
business,
so
apprenticeship
opens
so
many
doors
so
but
yeah
Word
of
Mouth
talking
to
the
talking
to
the
students.
AB
Follow
up,
thank
you.
Mr
chairman,
my
experience
on
Word
of
Mouth
usually
works
best
when
there's
Excellence
that
everybody
wants
to
share
yes.
So
what
are
the
types
of
things
that
we
could
celebrate
as
far
as
what's
working
in
this
this
program
and
what
has
been
excellent
in
the
past
sure.
AA
You
know
our
program
has
existed
since
1965..
We
have
broke
out
essentially
over
a
thousand
electricians.
Some
have
stayed
in
the
state.
Some
have
started
their
own
companies.
Our
graduates
pass,
the
state
of
Wyoming's
journeyman
exam.
The
password
is
about
99
to
98
the
first
time
we
train
qualified
electricians.
Our
program
specifically
is
the
inside
Wireman
program.
So
we
do
construction.
We
do
commercial,
industrial
and
residential
electrical
work,
so
we
have
the
best
trained
electricians.
AA
We
are,
and
you
know,
I
promote
our
industry
I'm,
not
an
electrician
by
trade,
but
I
also
start
on
the
Workforce
Development
Council
apprenticeship
is
just
a
great
way,
particularly
for
Wyoming
kids,
to
get
to
work
quickly.
I
was
old.
This
was
seven.
If
I
didn't
know
about
this,
I
probably
got
to
work
a
little
bit
quicker
got
paid
while
I
do
it.
AA
Our
apprentices
start
out
at
you
know
around
15
16
an
hour.
They
get
health
insurance
they're
already
providing
back
into
the
economy
of
Wyoming
just
by
going
through
a
trained
program.
So,
yes,
apprenticeship
is
vital.
A
AC
All
right,
thank
you.
Mr
chairman
Riata,
little
Walker
I
am
the
apprenticeship
coordinator
for
Wyoming
rural
Waters,
apprenticeship
program.
We
just
kicked
it
off
two
years
ago,
so
we'll
be
graduating
our
first
Apprentice
here
very
soon
so
Wyoming
Rural
Water,
of
course,
all
communities,
large
and
small.
We
have
two
occupations
within
our
program,
one
for
water
treatment
operators
and
one
for
Wastewater,
the
water
industry
in
general.
We
do
two
very
important
things:
we
provide
Clean,
safe
drinking
water
and
we
protect
Source
water.
AC
Those
are
vitally
important
a
lot
of
the
legislation
that
you
guys
see
involve
those
two
topics
and
so
for
Professionals
in
the
water
industry.
They
have
to
be
skilled
in
a
lot
of
different
things
right.
They
have
to
be
very
good
with
chemistry
and
math,
and
heavy
equipment,
operation
and
construction
skills.
Cyber
security
technology.
AC
So
getting
more
awareness
out
about
not
only
what
programs
exist
in
the
state,
but
also
the
opportunities
to
get
into
a
career
in
an
industry
without
getting
a
degree.
You
can
always
go
back
and
get
a
degree
later.
If
you
want
to
do
that,
for
example,
water,
industry,
hydrologists,
Engineers,
there's
a
lot
of
college
degrees
in
there
as
well
so
I
pitch
that
that
this
is
a
way
to
get
into
the
industry
start
earning
some
money,
get
some
credentials
behind
you
as
you're
figuring
out
what
your
career
path
is.
AC
Obviously
we
intend
that
they
stay
in
the
water
industry,
but
and
then
nationally,
I
want
to
point
out
that
the
water
industry
is
facing
a
third
of
its
Workforce
retiring
within
the
next
10
years.
So
it's
a
serious
Workforce
shortage
issue
along
with
many
of
the
other
industries
that
are
back
here
so
I
don't
have
all
the
solutions.
That's
not
my
job
but
I'm
here
to
support
you
in
whatever
way,
I
can
and
work
through
getting
to
the
bottom
of
this.
Okay.
A
Well,
thank
you.
I
appreciate
your
comments
for
support
anyone
else
who
wishes
testify
oddness,
okay,
we'll
go
ahead
and
close
public
testimony
committee.
What's
your
pleasure
we're
talking
about
23
lso,
142.,
okay,
moved
by
Burkhart
seconded
by
Sherwood.
A
Okay,
so
committee,
this
go
ahead
and
we'll
just
work
through
this
anything
on
page
one.
Your
comment,
okay,
page,
two
page
three:
is
anyone
want
to
take
a
shot?
Yeah
go
ahead,
representative
Gray.
Q
Q
I
Okay,
yeah
is
that
the
correct
what
we
want
to
say,
to
course
credit
or
is
it?
Is
it
some
other
credit
I?
The
student
needs
to
get
credit
for
that
in
every
District,
but
is
it
course
credit
is
what
we
want
to
call
that
yeah
good.
A
School
credit
or
something
it's
called
School
Credit-
was
that
friendly,
Amendment,
very
good,
okay,
so
I'll
I
think
this
is
a
good
Amendment
and
then
herein
runs
into
the
problem.
I've
had
over
the
years
your
minerals
committee
right
economic
development,
business,
we
drive
this
and
then
I
run
into
the
education
committee,
where
we've
got
all
these
terms
and
all
of
these
reports
and
all
these
credentialings
and
it
and
we
get
bogged
down.
So
we
can
use
the
term
school
credit.
G
Burkhardt,
thank
you
Mr
chairman,
so
I
would
I
would
propose
an
amendment
on
line
18.
after
the
statute
quote
to
add,
shall,
within
60
days.
G
M
Yeah
Mr
chairman,
so
it
would
read
to
provide
under
nine
two
twenty
six.
Oh
two
B9
shall
within
and
I
would,
if,
if
amenable
shall
within
60
days
after
July
1
2023,
establish
guidelines
and
then
move
to
line,
22
information
on
apprenticeships
student,
Learners
and
training
opportunities
shall
be
given
annually
to
each
high
school
student
in
the
district.
A
Okay,
so
it's
been
moved
and
it's
like
that's
what
I
had
written
down.
So
okay
I'll
just
comment
that
you
know
we.
We
can
get
this
amendment
in
there,
but
we
may
this
may
be
something
to
think
about
as
you
move
through
session
to
beef
this
up
a
little
bit,
because
if
you
don't
get
it
to
the
counselors
okay,
it
ain't
gonna
work.
So,
but
okay,
any
further
discussion
seeing
none
all
those
in
favor
of
the
amendment
say:
aye
aye
opposed
man.
Let's
pass
Brian.
M
Yep
and
Mr
chairman
I
I,
assume
I
can
we
can
make
conforming
changes
on
page
four
right
now
the
bill
draft
says
that
the
information
shall
be
provided
beginning
with
the
23-24
school
year.
I
assume
that
would
be
this
school
year.
You.
Q
You
Mr
chairman,
this
is
linked
to
the
First
Amendment
adopted
on
page
three
in
line
nine
after
the
conclusion
of
the
sentence,
I'd
like
to
add
a
sentence,
the
rep,
the
amendment
would
add
the
sentence.
The
report
shall
include
information
on
the
implementation
of
guidelines
linking
these
programs
to
school
credit.
Okay,
so.
A
A
reporting
requirement.
Okay,
anybody
understand
the
amendment
hear
it
excuse
your
second
second
by
Burkhart
any
discussion.
Although
excuse
me
all
those
in
favor
say:
hi
hi
opposed
amendments
adopted
anything
further
committee,
okay.
So
the
motion
before
the
committee
is
to
move
this
forward.
As
a
committee
Bill
to
the
next
session,
roll
call
vote
being
necessary.
AB
A
Okay,
well,
thank
you,
we'll
let
we'll
let
the
new
chairman
seniors
decide
whether
that's
a
house
or
Senate
bill
as
they
have
in
the
past.
Okay,
so
real,
quick
before
we
break
for
launch
committee,
chairman
Anderson
and
Brian,
we
may
need
your
assistance,
we're
looking
at
our
agenda
and
and
because
they
are
all
appearing
by
Zoom.
Chairman
Anderson
was
wondering
if
we
could
move
the
the
Aeronautics
report
to
tomorrow
at
the
bottom
of
the
agenda
to
help
speed
us
up.
So
we
can
talk
about
deregulated
powered
zones
even
longer.
Today,.
A
A
If
you
get
in
contact
with
them
I
see,
we
have
some
we'll
try
to
communicate
with
the
folks
out
there.
So
we'll
come
back
with
our
report
from
Sinclair
right
after
lunch,
we'll
adjourn
for
lunch,
till
1
30.,
and
so
the
last
two
topics
I
very
much
enjoyed
committee.
So
we
are
recessed
till
1
30..
Thank
you.