►
Description
MONDAY, JULY 8, 2019
8:30 AM 1. Call to Order
8:40 AM 2. Wind Tax Policy
Dr. Benjamin Cook and Dr. Robert Godby
Committee Questions and Discussion
10:15 AM 3. Break
10:25 AM 4. Energy Tax Discussion - Wind and other Energy Generation - Modeling of Electricity
Tax Compared to a Wind or Other Tax
Agency Discussion
Public Comment
Committee Discussion and Direction to Staff
12:00 PM 5. Lunch
See links below for the next meeting session
Click this link for the Monday - 7-8-19 Afternoon Session : https://youtu.be/GXfzBtNLTRs
Click this link for the Tuesday - 7-9-19 Morning Session - https://youtu.be/JE10my-5v7E
Click this link for the Tuesday - 7-9-19 Afternoon Session - https://youtu.be/zWEJZ7LxdWI
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A
A
A
And
with
that
committee
we
have
scheduled
our
September
meeting
for
Pinedale
represented
Roscoe's
district,
who
is
graciously
agreed
to
do
something
fun
and
exciting
course.
So
we
look
forward
to
visiting
there
in
September
with
that
we
did
not
have
a
microphone
system.
So
talk
louder
members,
the
public
hears.
No
one
else
has
any
concerning
the
business.
We're
gonna
move
right
into
our
first
thing
in
our
agenda
with
tax
policy
and
dr.
Sutton,
dr.
A
B
Bit
at
the
beginning
that
the
paper
itself
that
you
have
is
rather
long
I
know
so
we'll
take
you
kind
of
through
the
background
of
why
this
paper
was
written.
It's
actually
the
book
into
a
previous
paper
that
tried
to
identify
what
the
potential
costs
and
benefits
are
of
changing
wind
towns
in
Wyoming.
So
myself
and
dr.
cook
will
walk
you
through
this
and
then
hopefully
we
can
answer
questions.
If
you
do
have
questions
in
the
middle
I,
don't
know
how
you
prefer
to
do
this,
mr.
A
E
B
Well,
live
with
it.
I
guess
this
might
take
a
little
longer
than
we
want
so
the
background,
obviously
you're,
all
aware
of
it.
We
used
a
$5
megawatt
hour
tax.
Just
in
this
presentation,
previous
reports
have
looked
at
what
the
increments
would
do.
Ron
say
it
in
one
dollar:
inference
taking
our
level
or
production
tax
from
$1
to
$5
in
one
dollar
increments.
Those
are
in
the
previous
reports.
We've
written
I
can
talk
about
them
with
you
liked
quick
background.
B
As
you
all
know,
the
fact
that
we've
had
this
debate
for
quite
a
while
has
been
costly
to
the
state,
but
it's
fun
we're
uncertain
what
that
cost
has
been.
We
do
know
in
talking
to
developers
that
that
uncertainty
is
affecting
development
decisions
or
at
least
planning
decisions
in
the
future.
There
are
some
concerns
that
we
have
with
respect
to
that
development,
which
are
pretty
obvious
clearly
in
the
endow
report.
B
B
Obviously,
if
you
tax
a
sector,
you
will
affect
their
decisions
to
operate.
If
you
tax
a
sector,
then
we
could
have
reduced
business
activity
which
could
result
in
less
taxes
and
in
a
worst
case
scenario,
you
could
actually
affect
development
such
that
the
increases
in
revenues
from
increased
taxes
are
actually
offset
by
either
the
loss
of
economic
activity
or
even
tax
revenues
themselves.
B
B
All
right,
so
a
little
bit
of
background
that
you
need
to
know
if
we're
gonna
define
where
the
market
is.
There
are
three
grids
in
the
left
in
the
United
States.
If
you
didn't
know
this,
the
East,
the
west
and
Texas,
because
they're
Texas
and
the
circles
here
represent
the
points
where
power
can
flow
between
east
and
west,
and
the
point
of
this
slide
is
to
say
that
the
Western
grid
is
really
a
separate
grid.
Those
circles
represent
where
power
could
flow
from,
say,
Montana
or
Wyoming
to
eastern
states.
B
So
for
that
reason
anything
to
the
west
of
those
circles
is
in
the
Western
grid
or
can
be,
and
so
effectively
the
limit
of
the
Western
grid
and
the
limit
of
the
market.
We're
talking
about
are
the
four
states
north
to
south
Montana,
Wyoming,
Colorado
and
New
Mexico.
These
are
the
four
states
that
we'll
see
are
the
most
important
Montana
and
New
Mexico
can
actually
send
power
east
or
west,
depending
on
which
power
lines
they
use.
Some
changes
that
have
occurred
in
the
Western
grid
are
in
New
Mexico.
D
B
So
so
the
question
is:
can
we
move
power
East
out
of
the
Western
grid?
The
answer
is
yes,
but
it's
really
expensive,
so
the
difference
between
the
eastern
and
why
it
is
really
a
technical
one
about
the
phase
of
the
electricity.
The
technology
is
exactly
the
same.
You
have
to
build
expensive
plants
or
you
build
a
plant
in
eastern
LOC
Wyoming,
for
example,
that
can
never
really
interface
with
the
Western
grid.
B
So
the
Laramie
River
coal
station
actually
has
a
generator
that
sits
on
the
ground
next
to
the
other
two,
but
is
electrically
isolated
and
it
is
that
generator,
even
though
it's
sitting
next
to
the
other
two
is
in
the
eastern
grid.
So
to
answer
your
question,
it
is
very
expensive
to
move
power
across
that.
If
because
you
basically
have
to
convert
the
AC
to
DC
and
then
back
to
AC,
and
they
have
those
stations
they're
expensive,
how
plant
in
Montana
accesses
the
east
or
the
west
is
just
what
infrastructure
that
connect
to.
B
So
the
underlying
highway
of
transmission
lines
basically
hits
a
gate
wherever
it
interfaces
with
the
eastern
grid,
if
you're
in
West
in
the
Western
grid
and
so
to
get
past
that
you
basically
need
to
build
much
more
infrastructure
to
get
around
it.
So
if
you
think
of
it
as
a
road
system,
the
Rope
pinches
down
to
a
really
narrow
two-lane
road.
So
you
final
everything
through
what
amounts
to
a
roadblock
so
to
go
to
the
eastern
grid.
You
would
need
to
develop
that
technology.
It
can
be
done
it's
expensive.
B
What
plants
want
to
do
is
build
without
building
transmission,
and
so
that's
been
a
problem
in
Wyoming
you're
developing
wind,
but
it's
changing
significantly
now,
as
coal
plants
ramped
down,
we
can
actually
use
the
capacity
that
they
used
to
use
up
and
in
Montana
the
majority
of
the
electrical
capacity
is
westward
now,
especially
with
the
pending
closure
of
the
coal
strip
Montana
coal
generation
facility.
That's
there's
actually
a
rush
right
now
to
see
if
people
can
get
those
transmission
rights,
but
the
power
goes
west.
B
So,
even
though
you're
in
eastern
Montana,
that
power
goes
west,
we'll
talk
more
about
the,
but
because
the
two
grids
are
isolated.
It
really.
We
can't
send
power
for
examples
in
Nebraska
very
easily.
We
either
have
to
build
a
plant
that
will
never
serve
Wyoming
and
it's
just
isolated
as
if
it's
in
Nebraska
or
we
have
to
build
a
conversion
station
which
is
very
expensive
and
limited
in
its
capacity
in
order
to
get
there.
Does
that
answer.
B
There
is
actually
several
companies
and
a
national
initiative
to
build
a
very
large
DC
direct
current
transmission
system
that
would
actually
loop.
The
United
States
and
the
sole
purpose
of
that
is
to
link
well.
The
largest
purposes
out
are
the
greatest
of
greatest
importance
is
to
link
the
renewable
centers
around
the
country
to
maximize
diversity.
When
people
are
talking
about
renewable
energy,
it's
intermittent,
and
so
the
idea
is
that
wind
is
always
blowing
somewhere.
The
problem
is,
that's
a
multi-billion
dollar
project
to
do
that,
so
it.
B
D
F
B
B
Move
from
this,
the
the
point
is
right
now,
really
our
market
is
the
West
and
we
compete
with
other
people
in
the
West
New
Mexico
and
Montana,
in
kind
of
a
unique
situation
where
they
can
straddle
the
border,
but
they
do
compete
directly
with
us
in
the
Western
power
market,
as
well
as
having
greater
opportunity
than
we
do
for
the
Eastern
power
markets.
All
right.
If
we.
B
Next
slide,
please
people
have
seen
this
before.
All
this
is
is
a
map
of
where
the
best
wind
is,
and
this
will
be
important
as
we
talk
about
costs,
because
when
the
wind
blow
more
developing
wind
is
cheaper.
Really
all
you
need
to
take
away
from
this
is
purple,
which
is
the
highest
wind,
basically
occurs
across
four
states,
and
so
what
you
will
find
it
that
we're
talking
about
later
on,
as
well,
we've
often
talked
about
Wyoming
having
the
highest
winds.
B
Generally,
our
resource
is
pretty
similar
to
the
four
eastern
states
in
the
Western
grid,
so
that
is
eastern
Montana,
Eastern
Wyoming
eastern
Colorado
and
eastern
New
Mexico
all
have
very
similar
wind
resources,
and
that
will
affect
our
modeling.
If
we
can
go
to
the
next
slide,
please
just
to
give
you
a
sense
of
what's
on
tap.
Potentially,
this
is
the
current
amount
of
development
in
the
Western
grid,
with
respect
to
wind
energy,
and
you
can
see
that
California
is
about
three
times
what
Wyoming
is
and
Colorado
is.
Second
in
the
grid.
The.
B
B
Montana
doesn't
look
like
it
has
nearly
as
much
done.
This
is
because
of
the
transmission
access
issues.
That's
changing
with
closures
like
that
Colstrip
and,
as
you
can
see,
Colorado
has
significant
development
and
they
just
recently
turned
blue
from
orange
on
a
lot
of
projects,
so
they
just
came
online.
We
can
move
to
the
next
slide,
please.
B
This
is
the
at
projects
that
we
track
that
are
currently
in
progress
in
Wyoming.
There
are
some
that
we
don't
know
about,
so
the
takeaway
from
the
last
two
slides
is
that
there's
about
5,700
megawatts
in
the
last
slide
of
projects
under
construction
or
what
the
American
Wind
Energy
Association
identifies
is
currently
in
advanced,
permitting
or
advanced
planning.
If
we
look
at
all
of
the
projects,
including
ones
that
are
recently
announced
and
just
beginning
to
start,
the
permitting
or
planning
phase
it's
about
80
400
megawatts,
we
currently
have
about
14
under
1500
megawatts.
B
So
this
is
just
some
background
and
what
we'll
do
now
is
just
take
you,
through
a
little
bit
of
the
benefits
of
a
certain
amount
of
of
tax
or
wind
development,
and
what
the
tax
revenues
would
be
of
the
economic
activities
would
be
to
mean
you
can
move
to
the
next
slide
please.
So
this
is
a
paper.
That's
been
published
in
a
peer-reviewed
journal,
so
it's
been
looked
at
independently.
B
What
we
looked
at
was
about
60
100
megawatts
of
development,
so
we
assumed
most
of
the
advanced
planned
and
construction
occurs,
and
some
of
the
plan
does
so.
We
don't
go
as
far
as
80
400
megawatts
next
slide.
Please
that's
just
the
background
of
what
they
were.
If
we
were
to
look
at
the
economic
activity
that
those
when
developments
would
create.
Privately,
it's
about
7
point,
1
billion
dollars
and
about
3
billion
would
occur
in
the
construction
of
the
plants
with
the
remainder
over
it's
one
of
your
life
lifespan.
B
B
This
is
just
a
breakdown
if
we
were
not
to
change
tax
policy,
what
our
taxes
would
look
like
on
these
new
facilities,
and
it
turns
out
that
would
be
about
1.9
billion
dollars
over
20
years.
We've
not
discounted
this,
and
you
can
see
the
breakdown
here
about
a
quarter
of
that
goes
to
the
production
tax.
The
remainder
goes,
the
the
dotted
part
portion
is
the
sales
tax
that
we
charge
on
mins
and
the
hatch
portion
is
the
property
tax,
so
about
1.9
billion
at
current
rates.
B
If
we
go
to
the
next
slide,
this
is
what
increased
to
five
megawatts
or
five
dollars
per
megawatt
hour,
do
we'd,
add
another
1.9
billion
and
would
be
broken
down.
This
way,
we're
about
1.5
billion
would
be
the
new
facilities,
and
the
remainder
just
under
400
million
would
be
to
existing
facilities
who
now
have
higher
taxes.
We
assume
that
that
in
this
case,
we
assume
that
an
increase
in
the
tax
would
not
affect
the
decision
to
develop
or
existing
decisions
to
operate.
B
B
Slide
please
so
this
just
gives
you
a
sense
of
what
the
trade-off
is.
I
know
this
is
a
little
bit
busy,
but
there's
basically
some
bookends
to
what
we
need
to
think
about
if
there
were
no
tax
increase
and
all
of
the
development
that
we've
talked
about
occurred
to
the
nine
billion
dollar
game
to
the
state.
One
point:
nine
is
in
taxes.
If
we
added
four
dollars
to
the
wind
tax,
to
that
nine
billion,
you
add
the
additional
1.9
billion
from
the
new
taxes,
that's
assuming
that
there
was
no
effect
on
development
for
raising
taxes.
B
Now,
if
the
opposite
occurred,
and
this
tax
was
so
steep
that
it
pushed
everybody
away,
but
we
assume
that
the
plants
that
are
here
still
continue
to
operate,
then
that's
an
eight
point:
seven
billion
dollar
loss
to
the
state.
What
we
would
get
are
the
proceeds
of
new
taxes
on
existing
plants,
which
is
about
four
hundred
million
dollars
a
little
about
three
hundred
and
some,
but
we
would
lose
the
economic
development
gains
and
we
lose
one
and
a
half
billion
two
new
taxes.
So
the
real
question
here
is
how
sensitive
development
is
to
tax
change.
B
So
if
we
go
to
the
next
slide,
actually
you
can
skip
this
one
to
the
next
one.
This
is
just
kind
of
a
trade-off
matrix.
Basically
what
this
says
if
we
include
private
development,
if
fourteen
percent
of
plan
development
goes
away,
the
losses
would
exceed
the
gains,
in
other
words,
those
private
benefits
to
the
private
economy
from
construction
and
operation.
Plus
our
tax
revenues
would
overwhelm
the
tax
benefits
of
raising
the
tax.
B
We
can
go
to
the
next
slide,
of
course,
because
you're,
the
Revenue
Committee,
you
may
not
care
as
much
about
the
private
activity
as
just
trying
to
make
sure
that
the
state
has
enough
to
operate,
and
so
maybe
taxes
are
what's
most
important,
as
opposed
to
a
private
activity
which
may
occur
elsewhere.
If
about
half
of
that
development
were
canceled
just
on
a
tax
basis
without
including
the
private
benefits
in
construction
or
operation,
then
the
state
would
actually
be
worse
off.
So
if
we
go
to
the
next
slide.
B
We
don't
know,
there's
no
data
to
really
look
at
sensitive
developments
of
into
changes
in
taxes,
because
there
haven't
been
a
lot
of
changes
in
wind
taxes,
specifically
in
the
country
to
look
at,
and,
secondly,
who
did
that
it
would
be
a
historical
perspective
and
the
electricity
industry
is
changing
so
quickly
that
that
data
may
not
be
relevant.
So
what
we
did.
B
G
Off
with
the
cost
modeling,
my
background
is
more
on
the
oil
and
gas
size
than
the
electricity
side
and
I
want.
We
wanted
to
come
at
this
from
a
financial
modeling
perspective
of
saying.
If
the
developer
was
actually
going
to
build
one
of
these
plans,
how
would
they
do
the
financial
modeling
from
a
cash
flow
perspective?
There
was
a
prior
study
called
the
ìiî
model,
which
I'm
sure
you've
all
heard
about.
G
We
started
there
and
there
were
some
differences
and
modeling
choices
that
we
felt
like
we
could
perhaps
improve
on
as
well
as
update
the
data
in
terms
of
tax
structure
on
the
clustering
ground.
So
the
idea
is
to
compete
compute
what
we
call
the
levelized
cost
of
electricity,
just
caution
you
that
that
term
gets
used.
A
lot
in
the
literature.
G
What
we
really
wanted
to
do
is
figure
out
what
the
price
of
electricity
would
have
to
be
to
finance
this
project.
You
know
what
is
the
price
and
we
actually
wanted
to
reflect
the
price.
So
we
looked
at
different
modeling
frameworks.
We
looked
at
all
the
state
tax
policy,
how
different
states,
tax,
wind
and
and
how
these
projects
are
financed.
G
B
G
Play
with
wick,
we
know
those
production,
tax
credits
are
about
to
expire,
for
our
model,
sort
of
assumes
that
all
these
plants
were
under
construction
or
at
least
commence
construction
met
the
definition
by
2018
so
that
they
got
a
$19
per
megawatt
production
tax
credits,
part
of
the
financing.
The
way
these
plants
are
then
financed
by
developers.
They
don't
get
a
group
of
people
that
actually
have
tax
liability.
Oftentimes.
G
The
wind
developer
themselves
will
not
have
any
tax
liability
from
an
income
tax
perspective
or
a
federal
income
tax
perspective
because
of
the
depreciation
that's
going
into
the
plant,
and
so
what
they
do
is
they
go
find
people
that
do
have
tax
library,
and
this
could
be
any
corporation,
and
it
could
be
even
private
individuals
if
the
conditions
are
met
and
they
pre
sell
them.
The
tax
credits,
it's
sort
of
like
saying.
G
Well,
you
have
ten
dollars
of
tax
liability,
I'll
sell
you
a
credit
for
that
for
seven
dollars,
and
so
the
person
that
buys
that
credit
saves
three
dollars
on
their
taxes
and
you
get
seven
dollars
to
build
your
your
actual
project.
So,
even
though
the
developer
is
looking
in,
say
like
a
$19
per
megawatt
hour
of
production,
tax,
credit
they're
not
actually
getting
$19,
what
they're
doing
is
getting
six
or
seven
dollars
a
megawatt
hour
upfront
to
actually
help
finance
the
construction
of
the
project.
G
Those
tax
credits
are
rarely
monetized,
meaning
it's
rarely
sold
for
cash
flow
to
pay
for
the
operating
cost
of
math.
Just
so
you're
aware
this
is
also
the
same
exact
debate.
That's
happening
on
the
carbon
capture
side.
So,
as
we
hear
more
and
more
about
carbon
capture,
the
45
queue
credits,
the
the
biggest
thing
going
on
right
there
is,
we
can't
get.
We
haven't
gotten
guidance
from
the
IRS,
yet
to
tell
the
financier
is
what
the
rules
of
the
game
are,
so
that
they
can
go.
G
Try
to
find
tax
equity
investors
that
are
willing
to
put
that
capital
upfront
to
build
those
capture
facilities.
So
it's
the
same
kind
of
financing
mechanism,
that's
being
looked
at
anytime,
you're
talking
about
tax
credits,
we
just
sort
of
assumed
that
these
would
get
that
$19
per
megawatt
hour
tax
credit
finance
it
with
tax
equity
and-
and
you
have
to
when
we
talk
to
the
developers,
the
rate
they
said
is
well
we'll
take
eight
and
a
half
percent.
G
B
B
G
The
reason
is
that
those
are
idiosyncratic
there's
a
lot
of
site-specific
issues
that
have
to
be
or
questions
to
the
answer
when
it
comes
to
transmission,
where
you
actually
locate
the
the
plant
is
a
difficult
question
to
answer
when
you're
looking
at
a
bunch
of
states
all
at
once,
we
just
assume
50/50
to
equity
financing,
which
is
consistent
with
what
we've
heard
from
industry.
You
go
the
next
slide.
G
Here's
here's
the
list
of
assumptions
that
are
basically
constant
across
all
of
the
scenarios.
You
know
it's
going
to
build
sixteen.
Sixteen
hundred
and
ten
dollars
per
megawatt
to
build
this.
So
we
go
through
this
and
say
how
much
is
subject
to
sales
tax.
How
long
is
it
going
to
operate?
What
is
the
construction
time
and
so
forth?
So
all
the
assumptions
there,
if
you
want
to
review
on
the
next
slide,
please
dr.
gob.
G
You
mentioned
that
there
are
some
state
specific
cost
assumptions
that
we
did
a
lot
to
Barry
and
a
big
part
of
that
was
construction
costs.
We
know
it
doesn't
cost
the
same
to
build
in
every
state
and
there's
labor
issues
and
land
issues
and
radaway
issues
that
all
have
to
be
resolved,
and
so
we
looked
at
the
Army
Corps
of
Engineers
Cost
Index.
There
construction
cost
index
to
basically
figure
out
how
to
raise
or
lower
that's
sixteen
hundred
and
ten
dollars
per
megawatt
to
account
for
that
those
construction
costs
differences
across
states.
G
B
Well,
the
the
main
difference
more
recently
this
was
just
released
late
last
year-
is
that
California
has
become
a
little
bit
cheaper,
Wyoming
and
Colorado
have
risen
by
one
percent
so
effectively
the
relative
cost
differences
are
the
same.
The
levels
are
slightly
different.
If
you
would
prefer
to
have
an
update,
we
can
actually
show
you
what
those
numbers
are.
I've
already
run
them
through
the
model,
though,
and
they
don't
make
any
difference
to
the
relative
rankings
of
cost
in
the
state.
Just
the
absolute
numbers
go.
B
Okay,
so
the
other
thing
that
we
need
to
take
account
of
across
the
western
states
if
you
compete
against
these
other
states
so
effectively
what
states
are
doing
are
competing
for
valuable
economic
diversification
and
it's
the
case
that
many
of
the
western
states
have
identified
wins
specifically
as
a
source
of
economic
development.
So
what
this
chart
is
it's
a
little
bit
busy,
but
we
actually
evaluate
the
states
based
on
their
best
win
sites.
B
So
we
looked
at
what
the
capacity
factor
is,
that
is
the
percentage
of
a
wind
turbines
capacity
that
you
could
expect
to
get
given
that
wind
doesn't
blow
all
the
time.
So
if
you
have
a
three
megawatt
wind
turbine,
if
the
wind
blew
all
the
time,
you
would
get
three
megawatts
every
hour,
but
on
average
of
blows,
sometimes
at
full
capacity
and
others
it
may
be
down
to
zero.
So
what
is
the
percentage
of
that
capacity?
Can
you
get
and
that's
called
the
capacity
factor?
B
In
other
words,
the
places
where
wind
developers
would
probably
most
likely
develop
where
the
wind
is
best
where
you
can
see
here,
is
that
the
top
four
states
are
significantly
higher
than
everybody
else
and
they're,
essentially
equal
those
capacity
factors
are
much
larger
than
what,
when
capacity
has
been
to
date,
but
there
are
new
technologies
on
the
horizon
that
can
capture
that
over
time
they
degrade.
So
what
we
do
is
we
do
two
sets
of
analyses.
B
We
take
one
set
of
analysis
where
we
actually
allow
the
state
to
differ
by
its
resource
and
then
to
isolate
the
effect
of
taxes
and
costs.
We
do
another
analysis
where
we
just
force
every
state
to
have
the
same
production
capacity
factor,
which
is
that
35%
so
you'll
see
when
we
show
the
results
that
there
will
be
a
high
number
and
a
low
number.
The
low
number
will
correspond
to
when
you
go
to
the
best
wind
sites.
B
The
high
number
will
correspond
to
the
sites
that
have
the
lowest
or
the
lowest
capacity
factor
that
a
developer
would
likely
look
at
the
lower
numbers
next
to
each
of
the
first
there's
the
far
left
word
column
and
then
the
second
one.
That's
how
the
capacity
factor
changes
over
20
years,
so
this
model
takes
into
account
that
facilities
become
less
productive
over
time
and
they
depreciate
approximately
about
9%
over
a
20-year
period
in
either
kit
in
the
high
case
and
a
little
less
than
that.
B
This
is
just
telling
you
what
the
capacity
factors
are
that
realized
in
the
western
states
looking
at
current
data,
and
these
are
only
wind
farms
that
are
serving
the
Western
grid,
so
we
excluded
wind
farms,
for
example
in
Montana
or
New
Mexico
that
actually
serve
the
eastern
Griffon.
We
already
talked
about
that.
What
you'll
see
is,
although
Wyoming
is
often
talked
about
as
having
the
best
wind
resource
in
the
country,
at
least
in
the
continental
US.
B
From
a
Productivity
perspective,
it
is
not
usually
achieve
that,
in
fact,
the
highest
capacity
factors
that
we're
seeing
in
the
West
are
in
New
Mexico
by
a
significant
margin.
In
fact,
their
highest
and
most
productive.
Wind
farm
is
a
wind
farm
that
was
built
in
2005.
The
equipment
is
actually
considered
outdated
and
it's
due
for
renewal
very
soon,
but
it's
getting
a
forty
five
percent
capacity
factor
and
they
have
several
wind
farms
that
have
been
able
to
achieve
that.
B
So
while
we
start
with
the
highest
of
around
50,
which
is
what
we
were
told,
new
technologies
should
be
able
to
achieve,
at
least
when
it's
new,
probably
closer
to
the
midpoints
of
the
ranges
that
we
use
between
50
and
say:
41
is
more
likely
for
the
four
top
western
states.
So
if
we
can
go
to
the
next
slide,
please
so.
G
Working
with
and
we
have
the
opportunity
to
actually
work
with
grad
students
on
this,
which
is
a
nice
nice
touch,
it's
always
fun
to
work
with
students
as
well.
Well,
we
collected
all
the
tax
policies
across
all
the
states.
Wyoming,
of
course,
has
$1
megawatt
wind
tax,
most
the
other
states,
you're
looking
at
sales
taxes
or
something
like
a
gross
receipts
tax,
which
would
compared
to
it's
kind
of
how
we
do
severance
tax
Wyoming
for
oil
and
gas.
G
So
we
collected
all
those
the
one
state
that
had
sort
of
two
alternative
scenarios
was
New
Mexico
and
it's
because
they
have
a
provision
in
their
code
that
allows
for
industrial
revenue
bonds
and
those
deals
negotiated
more
at
the
local
level.
On
the
county
level,
they
can
choose
to
offer
an
industrial
revenue
bond
to
incentivize
economic
development,
which
essentially
gives
some
government
back
stopping
on
the
debt
side
of
the
equation
and
can
help
lower
the
financing
cost
for
before
the
actual
project,
and
so,
instead
of
because
it
is
a
locally
defined,
locally
negotiate
issue.
G
B
So
what
you'll
see
in
the
results,
which
will
show
you
in
a
minute
are
the
Wyoming
and
New
Mexico
have
to
cost
ranges,
one
where
Wyoming
uses
current
policy,
one
where
in
a
highest
case
that
we
know
of
we
raise
the
production
tax
with
five
dollars.
New
Mexico
has
to
one
where
they
use
industrial
revenue
bonding
and
then
the
local
counties
negotiate
taxes,
because
the
facility
is
effectively
now
estate
identity.
B
So
it's
not
taxable,
so
they
do
a
pilot
or
a
payment
lieu
of
taxes
with
the
developer
or
they
tax
them
using
their
tax
codes
and
avoiding
that
and
we'll
see
that
there
are
two
ranges
that
are
shown
for
that.
One
thing
we
did
find
out
in
our
research
and
III
identified
this
as
well,
but
couldn't
say
anything
about
it.
When
III
did
the
study,
they
ignored
industrial
revenue
bonding
because
they
said
they
didn't
know
whether
a
it
was
relevant
and
B
how
to
model
it
effectively.
B
E
B
D
D
B
Did
that's
a
great
question,
so
we
did
find
a
range.
What
we
did
was
we
found
that
they
were
kind
of
converging
to
kind
of
a
value,
that's
expected,
and
so
and
then
could
tell
you
a
little
bit
more.
We
modeled
the
industrial
revenue
bonding
on
one
of
the
most
recent
projects
that
was
put
together
in
New,
Mexico
I
guess
was
last
year.
Is
that
right?
G
Think
the
way
that
part
of
the
way
it
was
handled
was
that
if
you
get
the
industrial
revenue
bond,
the
portion
of
your
project,
that's
financed
by
the
IRB,
is
exempt
from
certain
taxes,
and
so,
even
if
the
the
finance
rate
itself
and
I
can't
remember,
the
exact
number
were
6%.
It
would
still
actually
reduce
the
cost
of
the
plant
because
you're,
not
the
the
state-owned
portion
of
the
plan,
is
not
subject
to
the
taxes.
So
we
I
can
get
back
to
you
with
that
number.
Mr.
chairman,
hurry
yeah.
B
E
B
Use-
and
they
use
this
for
not
just
wind
farms,
but
any
major
manufacturer.
Many
major
manufacturing
facilities
use
industrial
revenue
bonding
more
effectively.
The
county
can
bond
the
project,
so
it
takes
over
a
portion
of
ownership
that
bonding
that
allows
them
access
to
lower-cost
credit
than
the
private
company
would
get
because
it's
a
County
and
its
back
but
state
then
because
it's
a
state
entity
that
owns
that
portion
of
the
project
they're
tax
exempt.
So
you
have
to
go
through
tax
negotiation
to
say
to
the
developer.
B
D
B
G
This
just
is
a
schematic
that
kind
of
shows
how
these
different
tax
features
or
tax
incentives
are
laid
out
across
different
states.
You
can
see
most,
they
have
no
specific
wind
tax
in
per
se,
but
they
might
and
they
might
have
other
incentives.
On
the
other
hand,
you
do
have
something
like
a
gross
receipts
tax
in
some
places
where
they're
actually
taxing
the
revenue.
That's
coming
off
of
it.
We
just
do
it
slightly
different
here
in
Wyoming
with
that
tariff
I,
don't
know
if
there's
anything
else.
B
So
so,
if
you
read
this
table,
you
should
take.
It
interpret
the
acts
as
a
benefit
to
the
wind
developer.
So,
for
example,
Wyoming
does
not
have
a
sales
tax
exemption,
so
it
doesn't
have
an
axe.
Many
of
the
other
states
do
or
they
don't
charge
sales
taxes,
so
that's
considered
a
benefit.
So
the
way
to
read
this
is
just
a
comparative
and
I
know
in
the
next
portion
of
the
meeting
you'll
be
talking
about
a
document
that
tries
to
document
some
of
the
Renewable
taxes.
We
go
much
farther
than
that.
B
We
identify
all
the
taxes
that
would
be
applicable
to
a
developer,
including
any
income,
taxes,
gross
receipts,
taxes
for
regular
property
taxes
that
all
industries
would
pay,
regardless
of
whether
they're
wind
or
not,
unless
they
have
an
exemption.
So
the
comparative
thing
to
see
here
is
that
Wyoming's
tax
environment
does
not
include
as
many
benefits,
for
example
as
say,
New
Mexico
studs
for
Montana's
or
Colorado's,
which
we'll
come
back
to
because
those
will
become
the
four
states
that
are
probably
the
most
important
as
we
consider
where,
when
development
might
occur
in
the
West
Was.
A
F
B
A
F
B
Get
an
X
if
you
don't
have
an
income
tax
which
is
what's
up
there
as
we'll
find
out
and
we'll
talk
about
this
in
a
few
minutes,
it
turns
out
income.
Taxes
are
really
pretty
insignificant
to
a
wind
developer
because
they
don't
because
they
have
high
capital
cost
remember,
and
so
they
get
very
large
tax
exemptions,
which
is
the
reason
they
sell
their
tax
credits.
They
don't
need
them,
and
so
they
use
them
for
financing.
So
it
turns
out
that
we're.
B
C
B
C
B
G
When
we
tried
to
lay
out
the
modeling,
the
only
thing
this
is
a
slide-
that's
probably
impossible
to
read
on
the
screen
like
this.
Basically,
the
way
the
model
works
is
calculate,
the
system
cost
be
calculating
the
operating
cost
and
cost
how
much
the
financing
is
early.
We
calculate
how
much
the
financing
is.
All
of
those
things
are
taken
into
account
and
we
calculate
the
taxes
for
each
state
as
we
run
this
300
megawatt
development
through
each
and
every
state
and
their
tax
process.
So.
B
B
So
there
are
two
that
are
just
added
straightforwardly
to
the
model.
One
is
the
property
tax
cost
which
go
on
top
of
the
operating
and
finance
costs.
The
other
is
the
wind
tax
cost
in
Wyoming.
If
we
can
go
to
the
next
slide,
it's
slightly
more
complicated
with
gross
receipts,
tax
and
income
taxes.
We
have
to
iterate.
In
our
estimation,
because
an
income
tax
depends
on
the
property,
sorry,
the
profit
in
each
year,
and
so
we
have
to
calculate
cash
flows
in
each
year.
B
Calculate
the
profits
in
each
year
calculate
the
income
taxes
in
that
year,
how
they
affect
the
profits
and
then
go
back
and
do
it
again
until
you
finally
come
you
iterate
until
you
finally
get
the
total
cost
of
the
tax.
So
we
do
that
for
both
of
these,
but
to
take
away
out
of
the
model,
is
we
calculate
how
much
it
costs
to
build?
B
Of
those
numbers,
so
if
we
go
to
the
next
slide,
so
all
of
that
is
a
preliminary
to
what
the
results
are.
So
the
presentation
that
will
show
you
is
a
basically
a
bar
chart
with
a
range
of
values
and
we
rank
the
states
from
highest
to
lowest
and
when
you
look
at
the
left
side
of
the
bar,
that
is
when
we're
looking
at
the
states
when
we
look
at
sites
with
their
best
win
sites.
B
As
we
go
up
the
chart,
then
Montana
comes
in
second
at
34,
43
Colorado
at
34,
72
and
Wyoming
at
35.
44,
two
bars
above
that
one
is
New
Mexico
when
they
don't
use
industrial
revenue
bonding,
and
you
can
see
why
developers
would
prefer
to
use
it.
It
is
much
cheaper.
It
comes
in
just
behind
Wyoming
and
$36,
and
then,
if
Wyoming
were
to
institute
a
$5
wind
tax,
it
basically
raises
the
cost
by
about
two
dollars
and
fifty
cents,
and
that
is
due
to
a
few
different
things.
B
One
is
that
production
goes
down
over
time,
as
these
things
become
less
efficient,
and
it's
also
the
case.
The
wind
tax
doesn't
kick
in
right
away,
so
it's
not
just
a
straight
one
dollar
ad
versus
before
a
four
dollar
ad,
it's
about
at
two
dollars
and
50
cents
at
so
these
are
the
results,
and
so
what
this
suggests?
What
does
this
tell
us
if
we
go
to
the
next
slide?
B
B
Wyoming
is
currently
about
ten
percent
below
what
the
lowest
cost
jurisdiction
is
to
develop
in
which
is
New
Mexico
we're
about
three
percent
below
what
you
could
effectively
think
of
Montana
and
Colorado
is
tied,
we're
about
three
percent
behind
them,
so
we're
quite
competitive.
At
current
tax
rates
with
Colorado
and
New
Mexico
are
sort
of
Colorado
Montana
and
reasonably
competitive
with
New
Mexico,
although
they
have
a
distinct
cost
advantage
due
to
their
bonding
process,
and
this
is
a
reason
that
we
surmise
is
behind.
B
B
This
is
just
a
representation
of
the
taxes
that
come
per
megawatt-hour
with
each
state.
The
blue
bars
are
when
you
use
the
best
wind
resource.
The
orange
bar
is
everybody
is
at
that
low
end
of
35%,
so
it's
more
expensive
because
you
have
less
megawatts
produced
to
spread
the
cost
over,
which
is
why
the
cost
gets
higher.
So
what
we
do
is
we
take
all
the
taxes
that
are
paid
and
we
divide
by
the
number
of
megawatt
hours
are
produced,
and
that
gets
you,
the
taxes
paid
for
a
megawatt
hour.
B
So
if
you
look
at
Wyoming
in
the
Center
for
the
sites
that
are
most
likely
to
get
developed,
assuming
that
capacity
factor
that
technically
is
possible,
we're
told
it's
about
three
dollars
and
five
cents
when
you're
all-in,
with
all
taxes
under
current
tax
rates.
If
we
compare
that
to
Colorado
it's
a
dollar
57,
if
we
compare
it
to
Montana,
it's
a
dollar
82
and
if
you
compare
it
to
New
Mexico
and
the
New
Mexico
in
the
center
is
with
an
industrial
revenue
bond
it's
about
294.
B
So
right
now
the
tax
take
that
New,
Mexico
gets
and
Wyoming
get
are
about
the
same.
The
difference
in
cost
is
due
to
the
fact
that
they
can
lower
the
financing
cost,
which
is
the
largest
cost,
that
a
wind
developer
faces
relative
to
the
other
states
in
the
West.
On
the
far
end,
you
can
see
what
would
happen
if
Wyoming
added
a
$5
wind
tax,
we
would
increase
the
tax
per
megawatt
hour
to
six
dollars
and
82
cents
at
the
most
favorable
sites.
So
you
can
see
just
comparatively
speaking.
B
B
Please
this
is
just
a
summary
of
what
we've
said.
So
if
we
can
go
to
the
next
one,
basically
Wyoming
currently
is
ten
percent
more
expensive
than
New
Mexico
and
about
three
percent
more
expensive
than
Montana
and
Colorado.
The
other
thing
that
comes
out
of
the
modeling.
When
you
look
at
the
components
of
taxes,
the
Wyoming's
lack
of
an
income
tax
really
doesn't
make
a
difference.
It
is
relatively.
D
B
In
the
total
of
of
wind
development
for
any
state,
mainly
because
of
the
tax
liabilities,
we
talked
about.
There's
just
a
little
note
here.
That
said,
we
do
not
discount
flows
of
funds,
so
we
count
a
million
dollars
of
sales
taxes
paid
today
the
same
as
a
million
dollars
paid
over
20
years,
and
you
may
argue
well
clearly.
I'd
rather
have
a
dollar
today
than
a
dollar
20
years
from
now.
That's
true,
the
reason
we
didn't
discount.
These
is
so
that
we
can
look
very
carefully
at
the
cash
flows.
B
It
is
the
case
in
talking
to
several
states.
We've
also
talked
to
people
in
Colorado,
but
these
results
in
New
Mexico
and
in
Montana
at
least
I
have
they're,
also
very
interested
in
the
results
of
the
study,
and
the
reason
for
that
is
because
it
seems
that
tax
jurisdictions
are
much
more
interested
in
certain
tax
flows
than
they
are
at
a
single
lump
sum
payment,
and
so
for
that
reason
we
also
didn't
discount
the
values.
B
B
Again,
we've
talked
about
this.
These
are
the
effects
of
changing
the
wind
tax
from
one
dollar
to
say:
five
dollars.
It
basically
increases
the
cost.
It
would
basically
make
Wyoming
about
23%
more
expensive,
more
than
20%,
more
expensive
than
New
Mexico
and
about
10%
more
expensive
than
Montana
and
Colorado,
so
those
sorts
of
levels
we
concluded
that
we
should
expect
some
effect
on
the
decision
to
develop.
If
you
raise
taxes
too
much,
it's
exactly
what
we
expect
we'll
expect
some
developers
to
go
to
jurisdictions
where
they
can
effectively
lower
the
cost.
B
The
problem
is
when
you're
trying
to
sell
your
wind
across
the
West,
the
people
buying
the
wind
want
the
lowest
price,
and
so,
if
you
develop
lower-price
jurisdiction,
you're
more
likely
to
be
able
to
sell
that
power.
If
we
can
go
to
the
next
slide,
please,
to
give
you
kind
of
an
example
of
this
there's
been
an
argument
made
that
you
just
want
to
kind
of
put
to
rest
here.
There
are
some
people
that
argue
that,
because
California
has
very
high
electricity
costs
that.
B
Will
buy
from
Wyoming
regardless,
where
they'll
walk
by
from
any
jurisdiction,
regardless
because
it's
lower
than
theirs?
But
if
you,
the
way
to
kind
of
think
about
this
is
imagine
you're
a
California
tourist.
Can
you
arrive
at
three
gas
stations
and
the
gas
stations
have
the
following
prices
now
they're
all
much
lower
than
what
you
would
pay
California,
which
is
that
425
a
gallon,
but
because
you're
used
to
paying
425
a
gallon?
Would
you
be
indifferent
to
paying
three
dollars
and
three
cents
a
gallon
versus
275,
and
the
answer
probably
is
likely?
B
No
businesses
are
exactly
the
same
as
people
buying
gasoline.
They
want
the
lowest
price.
These
numbers
are
arranged
kind
of
in
the
order.
The
percentage
difference
is
between
the
prices
and
275
is
what
New
Mexico
would
be
like.
The
293
is
approximately
its
we
wrap.
We
took
the
midpoint
between
Colorado
and
Montana,
and
Wyoming
is
sitting
there
at
303.
This
is
what
current
tax
policy
and
other
cost
drivers
make.
Our
relative
prices
look
like
this
is
so
we're
relatively
close.
You
might
be
indifferent
to
paying
10
cents
more
from
one
place
or
another.
B
We
go
to
the
next
slide,
though
this
is
what
happens
if
you
have
that
five
dollar
tax,
and
so,
if
you're,
to
just
think
of
this
in
terms
of
a
buyer
which
would
you
prefer
at
this
point,
you
might
have
been
okay
with
going.
You
know
the
303
from
293,
especially
if
those
are
the
choices
in
a
particular
place.
But
if
you
increase
the
price
to
333
chances
are
you
would
go
somewhere.
B
F
B
We
have
found
that
we,
maybe
we
could
actually
tax,
smarter
and
actually
increase
our
revenues,
but
avoid
increasing
the
cost
to
the
wind
developers,
and
so,
if
we're
to
look
at
what
the
drivers
are
of-
and
this
is
from
talking
to
wind
developers
and
also
talking
to
other
people
who
are
involved
in
the
industry,
what
is
most
important
to
you
and
the
first
thing
is
the
financing
cost.
Whatever
financing
cost
is
that's
the
most
important
driver
to
wind
development,
the
production
tax
it
turns
out
is
a
very
significant
driver.
G
So
one
of
the
things
from
just
from
a
basic
cash
flow
perspective
as
they
a
production
tax
like
a
$1.00
megawatt
or
whatever,
actually
introduces
fixed
costs
into
the
revenue
stream
and
when
you're
trying
to
finance
a
project.
The
significance
of
that
is
that
if
the
price
that
you're
paying
or
the
the
price
you're
getting
for
revenue
varies,
it
actually
increases
the
volatility
of
your
cash
flows
to
have
a
fixed
cost
in
there.
So.
E
G
B
So
it
kind
of
maybe
put
that
a
little
different
perspective.
We
chose
to
do
a
production
tax
back
when
the
cost
of
wind
energy
was
somewhere
between
70
and
80
dollars.
They
can
back
German
case
might
remember
better
than
me
it's
much
more
expensive
than
it
is
now,
and
we
decided
to
tax
at
one
dollar
per
megawatt-hour.
B
That
price
has
not
changed,
but
in
in
a
decade
while
the
cost
of
wind
has
dropped
by
about
half,
and
so
basically
the
way
we
choose
to
tax
has
actually
caused
companies
to
have
feel
like
that,
much
more
riskier,
because
every
other
tax,
whether
it
were
sales,
tax
or
or
a
royalty,
for
example,
it
would
decline
as
the
price
fell.
But
what
we've
done
is
we've
added
a
component
to
the
taxes
which
is
fixed,
and
this
just
adds
more
risk
to
a
company
in
a
competitive
environment,
because
in
Wyoming.
B
B
B
Revenue
occurs
in
the
construction
phase,
and
so
you
have
to
finance
the
sales
taxes
which
of
course
means
you're
going
to
be
taxes
plus
interest,
and
so
they
don't
like
sales
taxes
so
well.
The
least
important
types
of
taxes
are
the
ones
that
they
seem
to
be
able
to
deal
best
with
our
property
taxes
or
income
taxes,
or
something
like
a
royalty,
and
the
reason
for
that
is,
first
of
all,
it
kind
of
shares
the
risk
between
government
and
the
company.
If
prices
go
down,
government
loses
revenue,
but
the
company
loses
revving,
so
shares
risk.
D
B
B
D
B
B
B
That's
the
base
rate,
and
then
you
can
also
get
potential
exemptions
from
that.
If
and
that's
where
this
pilot
comes
in,
that
New
Mexico
does
the
payments
in
lieu
of
taxes
with
the
industrial
revenue
bonding
because
now
effectively
the
state
owns
a
portion
of
the
project
and
they're
a
tax
exempt
entity,
and
so
they
negotiate
with
the
person
who
is
going
to
cover
the
cost
of
the
project,
how
much
they
will
pay
in
addition
to
the
financing
costs
that
they're
bearing
the
coupons
to
cover
it.
D
Professors
I
absolutely
follows
your
argument
regarding
the
kind
of
fixed
dollar
megawatt-hour
in
relationship
to
fluctuations
in
prices
and
the
percentage,
but
a
curious
about
the
relationship
of
a
production
tax
which
doesn't
come
until
a
plant
is
online
and
actually
selling.
And
your
discussion
about
the
most
relevant
founder
for
our
company
is
financing.
D
G
Sure,
there's
a
there's
a
couple
of
things
that
come
to
mind:
I
think
I'm.
On
the
financing
side,
you
start
talking
about
the
cost
of
that
I
would
go
back
a
little
bit
to
the
uncertainty
question.
Yes,
you
know
those
are
coming
on,
but
the
fact
that
if
you're,
if
you're,
looking
at
developing
in
a
state
and
you're
trying
to
get
financing-
and
you
can't
model
it-
so
you
can't
model
the
production
tax,
because
every
year
you
don't
know
if
the
Sage's
going
to
pass
any
tax
or
not
that.
G
A
finance
to
over,
and
so
from
my
perspective,
it's
the
uncertainty,
that's
more
important
than
whether
it's
a
production,
tax
or
per
megawatt
or
whatever
the
fixed
one
is
going
to
increase
the
volatility.
The
cash
flows,
the
variable
one.
You
just
know
what
it's
going
to
be.
If
you
just
say
it's
like
oil
and
gas,
you
just
say
our
seventh
rate
is
6%,
that's
what
it
is
and
they
can
model
it.
Then
they
have
more
certainty
and
they
can
make
more
confident
assumptions
about
what's
going
on
and
so
how
they.
G
B
Think
I
can
answer
a
little
bit,
so
the
you're,
absolutely
right
financing
is
by
far
the
most
important
in
our
modeling.
We
assume
that
the
financing
situation
is
the
same
for
each
company.
We
didn't,
we
didn't
model
an
assumption
about
you're,
more
likely
to
get
financing
in
one
state
versus
another,
or
anything
like
that.
So
financing
is
by
far
the
most
important
thing.
That's
what's
the
first
thing
on
this
list
and
it
moves
in
production.
Taxes
are
a
separate
issue,
so
once
you
think
about
financing,
then
you
go
on
to
well.
B
What
are
the
other
costs
that
I'm
going
to
incur
now
that
I'm
operating
okay?
Well,
we
talked
about
so
or
well,
I'm
still
financing.
So,
as
dr.
Cooke
mentioned,
if
you
have
a
production
tax
and
there's
uncertainty,
then
that
becomes
potentially
a
problem
when
you're
financing,
because
you
don't
know
how
profitable
the
company
will
be
and
therefore
you're
not
certain
what
their
creditworthiness
is
now
ignoring.
E
B
For
a
while
and
just
looking
at
the
production
tax
on
its
own
once
you've
got
the
production,
you've
got
your
financing
in
place
or
you
think
you
can
get
it
anywhere.
The
thing
is:
what
jurisdiction
do
you
want
to
go
to?
That
makes
it
most
likely
that
you
will
be
most
successful
and
the
jurisdictions
don't
have
a
fixed
component
in
their
taxes
will
be
more
attractive
than
ones
that
do
because
effectively.
What
you
have
is
a
risk
and
in
a
couple
minutes
we'll
talk
about.
So
how
can
we
avoid
that
by
just
taxing
different?
B
So
the
conversation,
here's
cookie
tax
differently
and
possibly
avoid
this
trade-off
between
raising
revenue
and
possibly
losing
development,
and
we
think
that
you
can
do
that.
There's
a
limit,
but
we
suggest
that
one
possibility
of
raising
additional
revenue
is
to
think
about
those
alternatives.
But
the
way
it
works
is
financing
is
the
most
important
we
talked
about.
Then
this
fixed
cost
of
production,
which
honestly
developers
hate
for
a
variety
of
reasons.
B
In
our
first
report
that
was
published,
we
actually
did
up
a
survey
of
one
develop
person,
honestly,
every
single
one
of
them
when
it
can't
be
Wyoming
that
came
up
the
sales
tax
is
next
followed
by
those
taxes
that
can
be
funded
out
of
operations
so
you're
absolutely
right.
Production
taxes
can
be
funded
up
out
of
operations,
which
is
good.
B
You
know
finance
it,
but
it's
bad
because,
unlike
the
other
ones,
it
is
one
that
they
see
is
a
potential
point
of
risk,
because
when
prices
are
only
falling
and
they're
very
worried
about
falling
relative
to
other
states,
so
you
compete
with
other
states.
You
can
now
offer
with
new
technologies
a
lower
electricity
price
they're,
also
very
worried
about
new
technologies.
B
In
specific,
you
know,
I'd,
say
wind
developers
biggest
worry
these
days
is
solar
and
they're
very
concerned
that
they
will
be
able
to
compete
in
the
future
against
solar,
which
is
potentially
going
to
have
lower
cost
than
wind,
and
so,
if
they
can
take
any
risk,
as
prices
fall,
that
tax
chunk
will
stay
the
same.
It
won't
fall
with
it.
The
way
I
royalty
would,
and
so
they
see
that
as
a
risk.
B
We
go
to
the
next
slide
and
I
promise.
We're
almost
done
so
there's
a
couple
things
that
we
take
as
lessons
away
that
could
be
considered
for
the
state.
The
first
thing
is
the
lesson
from
New
Mexico:
they
have
the
lowest
cost
to
develop,
and
yet
they
get
tax
revenues
that
are
equivalent
to
what
we
get,
and
so
how
did
they
manage
to
do
that
trick?
Well,
the
trick
is
that
they
look
at
effectively
what
their
industrial
revenue
bond
is.
B
Want
to
lose
a
penny
in
taxes,
but
the
point
is
they
can
get
that
amount
of
money
back,
because
the
wind
developer
is
already
facing
a
lower
price
to
develop
and
they
still
say,
stand
more
competitive
than
we
do
so.
One
thing
that
we
would
suggest
is
looking
at
using
this
model,
not
just
for
win
but
for
any
kind
of
economic
diversification
in
Wyoming.
It.
B
Much
in
the
endow
report,
but
it
is
something
that
could
really
be
like
New
Mexico's
use
this
to
attract
Google.
They
put
a
Google
campus
in
an
Albuquerque
using
this
bonding,
it's
something
that
may
be
considered.
It
is
difficult.
We
know
that,
and
the
other
thing
is
that
it
also
moves
the
discussion
of
taxes
to
the
counties,
and
we
know
that
in
Wyoming,
basically,
we
centrally
collect
and
then
distribute,
but
it's
one
possibility.
We
can
go
to
the
next
slide.
B
The
next
slide
is
really
just
to
say
in
Wyoming
we
could
potentially
tax
differently
so
using
what
we
learned
from
this.
What
we
said
was
why
don't
we
avoid
imposing
that
fixed
cost
the
production
tax,
and
why
don't
we
avoid
imposing
that
upfront
cost
the
sales
tax
and
why
don't
we
make
that
up
by
charging
a
royalty
and
what
we
used
was
a
royalty
of
six
percent,
which
is
exactly
what
Owen
gasped
at
so
we
said,
let's
just
be
consistent,
so
we
get
a
would
eliminate
the
sales
tax,
and
this
is
an
example.
B
It's
not
a
propose,
but
it's
something
to
think
about,
and
there
are
other
various
combinations
you
could
do.
We
could
lower
or
exempt,
but
we
could.
What
we're
suggesting
is
just
an
example
to
show
you
what
happens.
We
eliminated
the
production
tax.
We
eliminated
the
sales
tax.
We
replaced
it
with
a
six
percent
royalty
which
is
consistent
on
how
we
tax
other
sources
of
energy
and
if
you
go
to
the
next
slide,
that's
just
what
this
is
saying.
B
What
we
found
out
buried
in
the
results
I
should
have
put
it
in
big
red
letters.
What
we
would
end
up
doing
is
lowering
the
price
of
development
in
Wyoming
by
one
and
a
half
percent,
so
we
would
now
be
on
par
or
even
potentially
a
little
better
than
New.
Mexico
are
sorry,
then
Colorado
and
Montana,
depending
on
other
conditions,
specifically
the
resource
in
each
individual
place,
but
we
could,
we
would
definitely
become
more
cost
competitive.
We
lower
Wyoming's
cost
by
one
and
a
half
percent
by
avoiding
that
financing
cost
on
sales
taxes.
B
B
Is
just
by
changing
the
composition
of
taxes,
we
could
lower
the
cost
and
increase
our
total
revenues,
preserving
revenue
streams,
which
some
people
may
prefer
to
a
one,
lump
sum
hit
of
sales
taxes
and
then
nothing
talking
to
the
counties.
They
would
love
to
see
more
sustainable.
One
thing
about
wind
revenues
on
a
sustainability
basis
is,
they
are
very
unaffected
by
the
economic
cycle
and
they
are
certainly
unaffected
by
the
energy
cycle
right.
They
don't
go
up
and
down
with
oil
and
gas
prices.
So
when
revenues
is
a
stream
are
considered
very
secure
and
dependable.
B
Now
there
are
other
ways
of
doing
this,
but
what
we're
saying
is,
if
you
raise
taxes
you
might
think
about
how
they
affect
cost
and
think
about
the
composition
of
taxes
and
how
you
change
them.
You,
you
can
raise
the
taxes
on
wind,
but
if
you
raise,
if
you
specifically
focus
on
the
production
tax,
you
may
be
doing
more
damage
to
yourself.
Then,
if
you
look
at
changing
how
you
tax
either
replacing
that
for
changing
the
other
taxes
involved-
and
that
really
I
think
is
the
takeaway
from
this
study.
D
B
B
Actually
started,
be
8%
lowered,
be
about
to
stuff
to
do
the
math
with
my
head
now,
so
that
was
an
exam,
so
basically
we're
reducing
the
price
of
development
by
one
and
a
half
percent
and
you're
raising
your
revenues
by
eight.
So
if
you
take
that
$3.00
example,
approximately
you
take
about
four
and
a
half
cents
off
in
my
little
gasoline
price.
So
now
next
to
Colorado
and
Wyoming
and
Montana
we'd
be
about
the
same.
D
B
Was
back
when
I
were
just
referring
to
the
5
dollar
tax,
the
5
dollar
tax,
basically
really
added
to
our
costs,
and
so
the
moving
from
303
to
3.30
whatever,
since
that's
the
effect
of
increasing
the
wind
tax
by
as
much
as
what's
been
talked
about,
sometimes
we're
now
talking
about
current
tax
rates
and
instead
of
talking
about
that.
What
if
we
get
something
entirely
different.
B
Just
using
this,
as
the
reason
we
chose
this
example,
is
to
show
you
that
if
you
don't
want
to
increase
taxes
too
much,
you
can
actually
lower
the
costs
and
increase
it
and
increase
your
revenues.
You
can
void
any
trail
right,
you
make
win
more
attractive
to
developers
and
you
increase
your
revenues,
but
you
can
also
use
the
same
thing,
we're
arguing
to
say.
Well,
maybe
we
do
want
to
raise
taxes
a
little
bit.
That's
that's
up
to
the
state
and
of
course
you
all.
B
You
know
we
were
bonding
and
so
any
type
of
bonding
we're.
Now
the
debtor
the
creditor
is
now
the
market,
and
so
certainly
if
there
were
any
impact
to
those
cash
flows,
then
you
would
have
a
risk
so
I'm,
you
know
we're
now
flying
in
new
territory.
So
it's
off
the
cuff
imagine-
and
we
haven't
talked
about
this
at
all,
and
certainly
this
is
relevant
to
the
conversation
of
wind
development,
environmental
impacts.
So
imagine
say:
a
wind
farm
had
a
sudden
loss
of
say
Eagles.
B
This
happens.
They
collide
with
the
blades
they
die
and
they
didn't
have
a
permit
for
that.
What
if
they
were
shut
down?
For
that
reason,
counties
on
the
hook
that
line
the
payer
of
the
bond.
It's
not
available
now
our
financial
ways
of
avoiding
that
through
you
know,
insurance
on
your
debt,
but
the
point
I'm
making
is
that
it
is
not
guaranteed
that
you
will
anytime
you
take
on
debt,
even
if
you're
passing
it
through.
B
If
you
have
a
creditor
who's
paying,
you
there's
some
risk
that
they
won't
pay
you,
which
means
that
you
could
be
on
the
hook
to
pay
the
market
to
ensure
that
you
don't
default
on
those,
but
that
now
we're
getting
into
the
we
did
not
evaluate
the
specifics
of
the
risks.
We're
just
suggesting
that
in
this
particular
case,
New
Mexico
is
an
example
of
a
state
that
has
used
a
unique
method
to
both
encourage
development
and
lower
the
cost
of
that
development.
B
D
In
regards
to
does
two
revenue
bonds
in
New
Mexico:
do
they
require
a
match?
Is
it
a
hundred
percent
financing,
because
I
I
believe
we
can
view
them
in
1lv,
because
we
have,
in
the
past,
with
the
Industrial
Development
revenue
bonds
and
had
a
six
hundred
million
dollar
rule,
but
through
the
permanent
mineral
trust
fund
is
where
I
think
that
financing
option
came
from,
but
was
there
match
required
to
that?
A
B
So
and
dr.
cook
chimed
in
so
quick
answer
your
question.
We
did
assume
a
match
in
the
sense
that
we
did
not
bond
a
hundred
percent
of
the
project
with
the
industrial
revenue
quad,
so
the
the
bonding
and
have
to
go
back
to
the
spreadsheet,
to
find
out
what
the
percentage
was.
The
beautiful
ethos
I
think
we
just
replaced.
B
Reason
is
just
if
you
ever
see
the
spreadsheet,
it's
sometimes
difficult
to
remember
what
all
the
inputs
are,
but
to
answer
your
question
in
the
model
we
assumed
that
they
did
not
100%
financed
with
the
irz.
The
second
part
of
this
comes
to
the
I
think
when
you
are
mentioning
the
royalty,
for
example,
this
would
come
out
again
in
the
negotiation
of
the
payments
in
lieu
of
taxes.
E
B
Negotiated
so
the
royalty
part
was
when
we
modeled
a
royalty
just
as
an
example,
the
financing
occurs
in
a
separate
portion
of
the
model,
and
we
assume
a
certain
amount
of
financing
is
being
done
at
a
certain
rate
which
determines
the
cost
of
financing.
On
top
of
the
cost
of
financing
in
the
cost
of
operation.
B
We
kind
of
use
that
as
the
template
for
the
assumptions
made
of
how
much
they're
being
taxed
so
again,
the
idea
is
to
use
this
an
example,
something
to
think
about.
We
are
definitely
not
proposing,
on
the
basis
of
one
run
of
a
of
a
theoretic
model,
what
you
should
do,
but
what
we
are
arguing
is.
This
is
a
place
to
start
at
and
we're
saying
you
could
think
about
these
things.
The
industrial
revenue
bonding.
That's
being
used,
is
it's
two
parts
to
it.
B
B
And
how
that
occurs,
but
there
is
the
ability,
if
you
lower
the
cost
of
financing,
that
you
could
actually
keep
your
taxes
the
same
or
even
raise
them
a
little
bit.
If
you
want
to
take
some
of
that
margin
for
yourself,
because
you're
effectively
lowering
the
cost
by
say,
$1
and
then
the
negotiation
is
saying.
So
how
will
we
share
that
cost
saving
if
you
get
50
cents,
you're
still
better
off
and
we
get
the
extra
50
cents?
That's
good
for
us,
and
so
those
negotiations
are
important
and,
of
course,
in
the
state
counties.
B
F
Thank
you.
Mr.
Chen
I
really
do
appreciate
your
word.
Minions
I.
Think
it's
really
good
stuff.
We've
talked
about
a
little
bit
before
I,
like
definitely
like
the
conclusions
and
the
pieces
places
we've
gone,
but
I'd
like
to
back
up
a
little
bit
and
maybe
talk
about
the
you
also
looked
at
the
patterns
of
benefits
and
cost
of
development,
and
just
the
timing
of
it,
and
you
made
your
presentation
to
the
bar
Kaspar
I
thought.
That
was
very
significant,
wonder
if
you
could
speak
about
that
for
just
a
second.
B
So
so
this
goes
back
to
the
previous
study
to
this
one.
So
the
the
benefits
across
a
twenty
or
wind
farm
are
in
total
of
operations,
approximately
the
same
as
the
construction
phase
so
effectively.
What
that
means
is
you
get
half
of
the
benefits
of
a
wind
facility
if
you
include
the
private
benefits
in
the
early
phase
of
the
project
even
before
it
starts
production,
because
you
have
so
many
people
on-site.
The
reason
that
wind
is
so
cheap.
B
One
of
the
reasons
in
terms
relative
to
other
sources
of
generation
is
because
it
uses
so
little
resource
once
its
operating
right.
That's
no
fuel
and
it
effectively
employs
many
fewer
people
than
say
what
a
coal
mine
and
then
associated
power
plant
would,
and
so
the
benefits
accrue
at
the
front
end
primary
well
significantly,
not
primarily,
but
about
half
a
crew
in
that
production.
B
Are
benefits
outside
of
the
project
itself,
so
this
might
have
been
also
what
you're
referring
to
so
a
good
chunk
of
those
economic
development
right
benefits
are
not
due
to
the
project
specifically,
but
the
supply
chain
that
is
affecting
the
project
and
helping
it,
and
also
to
the
benefits
of
that
new
income.
That's
introduced
into
the
community,
so
you
can
have
people
in
the
supply
chain
benefiting
from
construction
and
in
our
study,
when
we
looked
at
600
megawatts
being
built.
F
F
To
Wyoming
of
something
that's
going
to
be
imposed
on
the
landscape
for
a
very
long
time,
and
yet
you
have
a
model
that
doesn't
discount
anything
and
you
don't
consider
those
costs.
So
we
haven't
sort
of
have
this
flash
of
all
these
benefits,
but
we
don't
really
think
about
the
cost
and
I
loved
your
idea
of
going
to
the
royalties.
You
know
I
think
that's
really
pretty
cool,
but
when
we
look
at
a
lot
of
gas
there's,
actually
we
call
it
loyalties,
but
there's
actually
two
pieces:
we've
got
admirable,
I
mean
we've
got
seven.
F
F
F
B
So,
framing
your
comments
as
a
question:
that's
how
do
we
think
about
those
things
we
do
not
exclude
the
ad
valorem
or
so
income
taxes
to
say
the
federal
government
which
are
part
of
the
cost.
We
model
the
property
taxes
to
the
county,
so
the
existing
portion
of
state
property
taxes
go
to
schools,
for
example.
Those
are
all
also
included
with
the
world,
so
we're
not
replacing
those.
We.
B
The
sales
tax
and
the
production
tax
with
the
royalty,
so
the
reason
I
bring
that
up
is
a
quick
clarification.
We
are
including
those
so
in
the
same
way
that
oil
and
gas
has
the
6%
plus
those
other
things.
We
do
the
same
thing
right.
We
just
changed
the
production
tax
and
the
sales
tax
to
say:
hey,
here's,
a
suggestion
to
just
show
you
how
this
might
work-
it's
not
the
only
one,
but
it
gets
us
into
this
whole
idea.
B
What
if
we
change
the
mix
of
taxes
in
a
way
to
work
for
the
developers,
if
we
want
that
economic
development
and
work
for
us
so
that
we
get
revenues
with
respect
to
your
comment
on
business,
the
way
we
usually
deal
with,
what's
called
the
externality
of
an
economic
activity
which
you're
well
familiar
with,
is
that
we
often
tax,
and
so
we
are
not
arguing
that
taxes
are
not
something
that
should
occur
to
win.
We
recognize
we
don't
try
to
cost
them
out.
That's
actually
a
different
study.
That's
kind
of
ongoing!
B
Now
we're
trying
to
find
out
how
people
in
Wyoming
value
wind
resources
and
how
much
they're
willing
to
give
up
in
terms
of
vistas
or
potential
access
to
public
land,
and
so
we're
going
out
and
trying
to
find
out
what
the
state's
preferences
are.
That
survey
will
occur
in
the
fall,
but
we
are
arguing
so
given
that
we
expect
there
is
some
cost,
we're
not
arguing
you
shouldn't
tax,
so
the
basis
for
attacks
they're.
Basically,
three
reasons:
one
is
clearly
to
raise
public
revenues
to
provide
public
services.
B
F
B
F
Yeah,
so
this
is
an
astounding
map
and
you're
right.
This
is
we
see
this
in
many
different
places,
but
you
sort
of
see
a
line
of
wind
and
then
you've
got
Wyoming
where
it's
kind
of
sucked
in
and
that's
actually
the
South
Pass
gap
in
the
Rocky
Mountains.
It
just
sucks
that
funnel
out,
and
so
in
your
paper,
you
did
a
couple
different
ways
of
modeling
it
one
you
talked
about
taking
the
areas
where
you
have
the
top
5
percent
capacity
better,
using
that
as
a
proxy
for
the
whole
state.
F
That
makes
total
sense
I
understand
why
they
do
that,
but
another
one
was
to
take
2.
1
percent
I,
don't
know
very
another:
it's
35
percent!
Well,
that
was
your
flat.
Yes,
it
was
the
same
everywhere,
but
now,
when
you
think
about
the
way
the
grid
lays
over
this,
did
you
want
to
go
to
that
night?
Well,
I,
don't
know
I'd
love
to
put
them
together.
F
F
This
idea,
approximate
with
the
top
5%
I
kind
of,
want
to
push
back
on
that
a
little
bit
because
you're
processing
up
using
5%
in
each
state
and
maybe
that's
more
equivalent
than
having
this
vastness
of
Wyoming
with
developable
state
up
areas,
that's
very
attractive.
If
you
look
at
other
ratings
of
Wyoming
and
we
have
the
most
areas
of
magnitude,
6
and
7,
or
class
6
and
7
winds
up
anybody,
so
I'm
just
pushing
back
on
the
fact
that
proc
synced
with
the
5%
across
the
states
is
necessarily
good.
F
I,
also
think
it's
probably
harder
to
take
those
areas
which
are
located
in
a
grid
and
get
up
to
the
west.
You
had
a
good
answer
to
that.
Really
what
it
comes
down
to
is
New
Mexico,
a
big
player
in
the
Northwest
grid
and
I
know.
You
know
the
company
3-3
you've
mentioned
several
times.
E3
produced
a
study
in
January
this
year.
F
They
released
definitely
talked
about
where
they're
going
to
get
the
renewable
resources
for
Oregon
and
Washington
and
in
that
they
basically
take
it
out
of
Montana
and
Wyoming
Wyoming
in
spades
more
than
twice
as
much
or
almost
twice
as
much
as
one's
Hannah
and
more
than
anywhere
else
within
their
area
and
I
guess.
The
point
I'm
really
trying
to
ask
you
about
is
if
literally
they're,
going
to
go
to
100
percent
reduction
in
greenhouse
gases,
and
if
you
take
the
e3
modeling
by
2050,
they
have
nowhere
else
to
go
to
get
enough
Rios.
F
F
You
can
possibly
get
it
which
tells
me
that
if
they
really
really
want
to
continue
with
these
policies,
which
I
think
we
do
as
a
planet
and
there's
a
people,
I
think
Washington
Oregon
do
then
New
Mexico
doesn't
really
play
into
that
and
we
have
an
astounding
amount
of
wind,
no
matter
what
the
situation
is,
that
we
have
to
figure
out
how
to
handle.
So
the
play
is
not
like
this
year
of
a
lot
of
people
think
that
what
we
do
right
now
is
very
important.
The
play
is
like
15
10
years.
B
B
The
example
of
the
movie
Cars
to
kind
of
talk
about
this
right,
so
if
you're
familiar
with
the
movie
Cars
and
if
you've
got
kids
or
grandkids,
you've,
probably
seen
it
a
million
times
because
they
watch
it
over
and
over
again
right.
It
takes
place
in
this
little
town
called
Radiator
Springs,
which
to
me
always
looks
a
little
bit
like
Medicine
Bow.
B
The
change
in
operations
of
the
coal
plant,
which
is
really
when
you're
talking,
but
it's
ramping,
which
is
the
first
step
to
eventually
shutting
down
they've,
gone
from
running
all
the
time
to
only
running
when
they're
needed.
Unfortunately,
for
us,
the
next
phase
is
that
they
will
shut
down
and
they're
not
being
replaced.
B
So
given
that
as
they
ramp
down,
they
open
up
more
transmission
capacity,
and
so
to
your
point,
and
this
kind
of
goes
to
the
back
to
the
last
one,
where
the
power
can
go
from
places
like
Wyoming
or
Montana,
is
really
very
dependent
on
that
very
fast.
Changing
landscape
of
who's
moving
and
who's,
not
so,
for
example,
the
in
Montana.
The
early
closure
of
coal
strip
is
now
creating
kind
of
a
gold
rush
to
get
renewables
in
place
around
that
transmission
access.
So
I
think
this
kind
of
relates
to
your
last
question.
B
Absolutely
there
is
a
significant
amount
of
resource
in
Wyoming
and
Montana,
also
Colorado
and
New
Mexico.
The
assumptions
around
Colorado
and
New
Mexico
really
depend
well.
Colorado
uses
a
lot
of
its
own
power,
New
Mexico.
They
are
building
significant
transmission.
So
there
are
other
studies
that
I
can
show
you
where
New
Mexico
becomes
a
huge
player
and
it
really
did
winces
in
the
studies
depend
on
how
people
assume
the
transmission
grid
will
change
so
without
really
predicting
the
future
and
all
that
Ben's
speak
it
really.
G
Mr.
chairman
staircase
I
absolutely
agree
with
some
of
your
caveats
that
there
are
some
arguments
to
be
made
that
that
we
have
an
inelastic
market
that
when
developers
are
going
to
come
here,
because
we
have
a
great
resource,
that's
available.
I
agree
with
that
concept,
because
I
teach
it
to
my
MBA
students
every
year
every
year
and
we
talked
about
inelastic
markets
and
raising
prices
in
elastic
markets,
because
you
can
increase
government.
G
The
electricity
generation
curve
for
solar
panels
matches
up
with
the
grid
a
lot
more
easily
than
intermittent
the
intermittency
of
wind
does,
and-
and
so
yes,
we,
there
are
some
things
about
western
versus
eastern
grid
that
might
increase
the
elasticity
or
or
make
it
more
likely
that
you
would
development
here.
But
if
you
have
an
expanding
infrastructure
on
the
transmission
side
and
you
can
develop
solar
resources
that
have
less
impact
on
the
grid,
that
becomes
a
competition
and
developers
that
are
in
the
business
of
renewable
generation
may
be
technology
agnostic
and
they
just
choose.
B
Gonna,
add
to
that
if
well,
if
we
were
a
place
where
you're
going
to
develop
wind
anyway
and
not
other
places,
we're
trying
to
struggle
with
this,
as
we
put
it
towards
a
germinal
this
report,
how
do
you
describe
that?
You
may
have
just
you
know
one
of
the
arguments
to
say
that
the
wind
market
is
more
quote,
elastic
or
sensitive
to
cost
changes
then
we
might
initially
expect.
Maybe
the
fact
that
Wyoming
didn't
see
a
lot
of
development
yeah.
Where
is
that
transmission?
B
If
we
needed
it,
it
seems
like
we
took
a
long
time
to
build
something,
but
also
people
went
elsewhere,
and
so
that's
a
question
that
we're
struggling
with.
We
can't
answer
that
sensitivity
and
so
we'll
be
straightforward
with
you
on
that.
So
all
we're
suggesting
it's
instead
of
worrying
about
that.
Why
don't
we
just
think
about?
We
do
need
to
consider
it.
We
don't
know
what
the
answer
is,
and
so
we
should
proceed
probably
as
very
carefully
and.
F
F
New
Mexico
every
could
be
for
the
Northwest,
but
that
just
means
Montana
legislators
are
right.
Now
are
struggling
with
this
exact
same
issues
and
what
that
really
means
is.
We
should
be
working
with
our
colleagues
in
Montana
on
working
together
and
whether
it's
an
OPEC
of
wind
or
whatever,
it's
and
I.
F
Revenue
Committee
Chairman
and
some
others,
but
there
is
ground
and
there's
definitely
people
there
that
have
they
have
the
same
impacts
as
Wyoming.
So
can
you
speculate
wouldn't
Wyoming
in
Montana?
Were
they
more
unified
their
strategy
and
how
that
might
play
out
with
respect
to
these
Northwest
submarkets
I'll,
leave
it
at
that.
You've
really
done
a
good
job.
I.
D
B
B
Having
a
pretty
much
more
significant
tax
revenue
thrown
on
from
wind
and
former
chairman
Madden
used
to
talk
about
that,
the
wind
actually
kind
of
covers
its
cost
when
it
enters
the
state
because
of
the
extra
what
it
pays
and
then
we
could
talk
about
environmental
damage,
whereas
then
you
have
Montana
and
Colorado
to.
Basically,
you
know
give
away
quite
a
bit
of
that
tax
revenue
to
attract
it.
B
I,
too,
have
been
approached
by
both
states
that
this
study
has
gotten
their
attention,
and
people
in
Colorado
are
looking
at
it
to
think
about
ways
of
maybe
changing
their
tax
policy.
Montana
passed
two
bills,
looking
at
overall
state
revenues
and
you're
well
aware
of
this,
and
there's
probably
a
really
good
opportunity
right
now.
B
They
play
each
like
having
that
kid
with
flip
parents
right
they
go
to
one
they
go
to
the
other,
so
you
could
do
it
that
way.
The
other
reason
it
coordinated
so
that
you
know
that,
as
you
change
your
tax
policies
you're
already
considering
how
the
other
state
may
be
changing
tax
policy,
so
you're
taking
that
into
account,
so
you
unintentionally
make
things
worse
or
or
sub
optimize.
Your
your
tax
policy,
so
I
would
argue.
B
I
would
completely
agree
with
you
if
we
did
coordinating
tax
policies
across
it
or
even
talk
about
revenue
changes
as
we
think
about
modeling
changes
in
the
future.
This
could
be
really
important
and,
with
respect
to
wind,
there
potentially
could
be
some
real
benefit
to
trying
to
find
some
unified
policies.
That
may
be
all
for
governor's
could
agree
on
which
could
then
lead
said
some
legislative
action.
B
Is
a
public
document?
It
is
posted
on
the
on
the
Center
for
energy
economics
and
public
policy
website,
and
also
the
school
for
energy
resources
website.
Initial
funding
came,
the
first
study
came
from
the
Wyoming
Business
Council
and
they
were
working
with
Carbon
County
Economic
Development.
That
was
the
question
when
we
take
on
funding
for
these
we're
not
acting
as
an
advocate.
In
any
way,
we
explain
to
anybody
who
funds
us
that
we
work.
We
are
doing
a
research
project
and
if
you
would
like
a
question
explored
that
the
research
project
will
provide
the
answers.
B
Whichever
way
they
go,
it's
your
funding,
research
to
answer
a
question,
so
that
was
the
first
study
was.
This
study,
though,
was
in
part
funded
by
the
Carbon
County
Economic
Development
Corporation,
and
the
majority
of
the
funding
that
came
from
the
effort
was
the
National
Science,
sorry
Department
of
Energy
and
get
my
grants
mixed
up
the
Department
of
Energy.
We
have
a
grant
at
the
University
publicly
funded
by
the
Department
of
Energy,
of
looking
at
wind
energy
development.
Just
generally,
it's
a
multi-disciplinary
fund
about
five
million
dollars
of
funding.
B
B
Results
are
disseminated
as
a
research
report
and
it
is
treated
in
the
university
as
a
research
grant
and
therefore
required
to
meet
all
the
requirements
regarding
conflict
of
interest
or
anything
like
that,
and
also
openness
in
the
presentation
of
results.
The
results
are
developed
not
just
for
policy
development
in
Wyoming,
but
they're
also
meant
for
a
wider
audience
through
academic
publication.
A
G
What
we
really
wanted
to
know
is
what
would
be
the
price
that
the
developer
would
be
looking
at
when
they
went
into
a
negotiation
room,
a
purchase
agreement,
because
that
dictates
how
they're
going
to
negotiate
those
terms?
For
instance,
if
you
have
to
negotiate
a
power
purchase
agreement,
you
know
your
costs
or
you
need
$30
in
order
to
pay
off
holiday
of
all
of
your
investors
and
that's
gonna,
that's
going
to
be
kind
of
where
you
start
with
your
power
purchase
agreement
and
then
you're
going
to
start
negotiating
various
aspects
of
that
agreement.
G
E
G
B
Short
answer:
your
questions
we
didn't
model
specifically
PBA's
or
conditions
of
purpose
and
small,
80,
megawatt
or
smaller
projects
that
basically
have
two
utilities
have
to
take
their
power.
They
certainly
have
some
advantages
in
the
sense
that
if
somebody
has
to
take
your
power
and
the
price
is
known
as
the
avoided
cost,
then
they're,
you
know
the
creditors
face
less
risk
in
that
situation,
and
so
that
might
affect
financing
costs.
B
On
the
other
side,
the
avoided
cost
is
often
much
lower
than
the
developer
wants
to
deal
with
in
Wyoming,
it's
been
reasonably
acceptable,
but
there
have
been
long
debates,
for
example,
in
Montana,
about
whether
the
avoided
cost
is
set
to
low
for
perfect
projects.
So
all
of
those
things
can
come
into
effect
and
affect
cost,
but
what
we
did
was
we
just
tried
to
figure
out.
B
What
is
the
base
cost
that
a
generic
development
would
have
to
cover
to
ensure
that
it's
a
masters
got
what
they
expected
was
the
minimum
return,
and
we
assume
the
market
is
competitive.
So,
on
the
demand
side,
prices
are
basically
driven
down
to
the
minimum,
acceptable
cost
and
the
developer
can
take
and
still
make
reasonable
rates
of
return,
and
that
was
the
way
we
dealt
with
it.
B
B
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
Did
you
remember
our
last
committee
meeting?
We
had
a
bill
I,
don't
know
15
years
ago
to
just
have
tax
and
electricity,
regardless
of
the
source.
Thanks
senator
Moffett
brought
that,
and
so
we
are
landed
meetings
that
those
type
of
issues
we
should
be
discussed
and
see
where
we
aren't
relation
to
other
states
so
also
research,
some
district
empathy
for
very
memo.
C
C
Received
a
phone
call
a
question
about
this-
that
give
me
the
idea
that
perhaps
the
memo
needed
some
revision
to
include
some
additional
information.
So
that
is
the
reason
for
the
revision.
I
did
not
complete
this
revision
and
until
late
on
Friday,
so
I
just
brought
copies
of
it
rather
than
updating
the
Gov
delivery.
We
will
certainly
do
that
today.
C
C
C
Looking
next
on
the
state
of
Minnesota
I
wanted
to
point
these
out
and
most
of
the
changes
that
I
made
had
to
do
with
what
was
discussed
in
dr.
got
bees
and
doctors
cooks,
discussion.
How
you
know
states
may
tax
power
generation,
but
what
they
do
is
they
also
allow
for
perhaps
an
exemption
relating
to
the
property
taxes
or
to
the
sales
taxes,
and
that
is
the
case
in
Minnesota.
C
First
of
all,
there's
an
exemption
to
this
to
the
wind
generation
tax
in
Minnesota.
The
tax
does
not
apply
to
electricity
produced
by
wind
energy
conversion
systems
located
in
job
opportunity,
building
zones,
also
in
Minnesota
all
real
or
personal
property
of
a
wind
energy
conversion
system
is
exempt
from
property
tax,
except
that
the
land
on
which
the
property
is
located
remains
taxable
and
also
windin.
Energy
conversion
systems
that
are
used
and
electric
used
as
an
electric
power
source
basically
are
exempt
from
sales
tax
in
Minnesota
as
well.
C
C
In
regard
to
the
generation,
the
license
tax
in
the
state
of
Tanna
new,
generating
facilities
with
nameplate
capacities
of
less
than
one
megawatt
and
using
alternative
renewable
energy
source
are
exempt
from
the
from
property
taxes
for
five
years
after
the
start
of
the
operation
generating
plants
producing
one
megawatt
or
more
by
alternative.
Renewable
energy
source
are
eligible
for
property.
Tax
reduction
on
the
local
mill
levy
during
the
first
nine
years
of
operation,
subject
to
approval
by
the
local
government.
C
Proceeding
on
to
page
four,
also
in
the
state
of
North
Dakota
under
the
coal
conversion
facilities
with
electrical
generation,
electrical
generating
facilities
are
exempt
from
sales
and
use
taxes
for
wind
facilities.
The
equipment
must
be
purchased
for
wind
facilities
to
qualify
for
that
sales
and
use
tax
exemption.
C
The
equipment
must
be
purchased
between
July
2011
and
July
2017
for
non
wind
and
non
coal
facilities.
The
facilities
must
sell
the
electricity
it
produces
or
use
it
on-site
for
a
business-related
activity
going
on
on
page
four,
in
regard
to
the
information
added
under
the
state
of
South
Dakota,
the
the
tax
is
described
above.
The
tax
on
electricity
produced
by
wind
farms
and
the
tax
on
electricity
produced
by
solar
facilities
are
in
lieu
of
all
the
taxes
levied
by
the
state
counties,
municipalities,
school
districts.
C
C
Proceeding
on
to
the
last
page
of
the
revised
memo
on
page
five
for
the
state
of
Vermont,
the
solar
plans,
subject
to
the
uniform
capacity
tax
are
exempt
from
the
statewide
education
property
tax
and
also
in
state
of
Vermont.
This
pallet
may
also
vote
to
exempt
or
stabilize
a
solar
plant
for
municipal
property
tax
purposes.
The
localities
that
impose
a
municipal
property
tax
on
solar
plants
are
required
to
follow
appropriate
evaluation
methodologies
specified
in
Vermont
law,
and
that
concludes
the.
C
Representative
Conley,
it
is
my
assumption
that
that
would
be,
since
this
is
talking
about
it's
in
lieu
of
the
taxes
on
the
property.
Typically,
the
properties
end
up
being
assessed
and
collected
at
least
collected
at
the
local
level.
So
it's
my
assumption
that
that
happens
in
regard
to
local
budgets.
Similarly,
to
how
value
certified
in
ceará
Wyoming
to
the
counties,
the
counties
use
those
evaluations
or
the
basis
of
their
local
budgets.
E
C
C
D
C
Germans
ones
our
Chairman
case,
representative
Blackburn,
the
state's
selected
here-
are
the
states
that
specifically
tacked
had
an
axe
on
power
generation.
As
it
says,
in
the
beginning
of
of
the
memo
States
structure,
their
taxes
quite
differently,
some
of
them
tax
based
on
consumption,
some
of
them
the
tax
based
on
power
distribution.
A
C
F
F
F
F
If
you
were
to
actually
look
at
the
percentage
of
the
tax
that's
paid
by
the
people
within
the
state,
the
incidence
of
the
tax
I
would
imagine
that
almost
all
these
states
probably
consume
more
than
whalemen
bills.
We
only
consume
15%
of
the
power
in
the
Rocky
Mountain
Power
Territory.
That's
a
huge
and
export
the
tax.
We've
looked
at
other
taxes.
We
looked
at
lodging
tax
from
about
exporting
people
percent.
F
We
looked
at
gas
taxes
and
we
talked
to
some
export
component
there,
but
there's
a
huge
export
component
to
an
electricity
taxes
and
the
idea
that,
in
other
words
it's
you
allow
credit
for
the
other
taxes
paid.
Somehow,
for
example,
it
might
make
it
more
powerful
and
it
might
make
it
so
that
we're
not
picking
window
over
anything,
but
we
did
do
it
on
the
gross
receipts,
but
we
allow
credit
for
all
other
taxes
paid.
F
Just
like
we
do
with,
in
theory
with
our
Constitution
and
income
taxes,
and
that
might
be
a
very
powerful
way
to
impose
a
tax
that
is
mostly
exported
and
we'd
significantly
exported
and
also
to
change
over
time
as
the
technology
makes
changes
and
we
have
less
production
of
energy.
That's
tax
intensive
and
we
move
towards
renewables.
It's
less
Texans
intensive.
F
They
have
left
less
the
ducts
so
right
now
that's
what
ten
percent,
maybe
a
little
over
10
percent,
is
renewable
right
now,
115
years,
I'm
going
to
bet
that
it's
80
percent
of
visual-
and
we
don't
have
a
tax
structure
that
moves
with
that.
It's
conceivable
here.
Could
we
do
some
more
work
on
the
steam
excited.
E
A
Doesn't
some
it's
a
license?
Tax
on
all
electricity
generated
been
affected
or
produced?
We
looked
at
that
in
goes
my
first
year
or
maybe
a
year
before
my
first
term
legislature,
and
it
didn't
go
that
far,
but
that
concept
apparently
works
in
Montana
for
his
place,
instituted
there
and
that's
where
I
think
Joe
started
from,
but.
A
D
A
Between
some
it
may
be,
some
of
my
questions
would
be
how
recent
some
of
these
tax
bills
are
I
mean
some
of
them
may
have
been
in
effect
for
twenty
or
thirty
years,
some
of
made
in
the
last
couple
of
years.
That
states
are
trying
to
keep
up
with
their
changing
energy
environment,
but
any
any
research
on
that,
or
perhaps
what
they
sent
naked,
some
more
information
on.
A
If
it's
a
recent
Advent
and
their
taxation
or
it's
a
kind
of
a
holdover,
they
can't
get
out
of
her
statutes
from
long
ago,
especially
on
some
of
the
geothermal
I,
would
think.
They're
newer,
his
raps
from
the
hydro
powers
been
around
along
I,
mean
the
committee.
Is
that
a
place
you
you
want
to
go?
We
have
about
taxation
of
solar.
A
We
had
that
discussion
earlier
on
how
that
was
more
of
an
athlete
issue
on
renewables,
that
this
is
one
way
to
have
a
that's
equalized,
I'm,
not
sure
I
want
to
call
it
more
fair
tax
director,
but
where
we
try
to
treat,
we
don't
try
to
pick
winners
and
losers,
but
that
necessarily
is
taking
off.
Maybe
the
wind
tax
or
a
different
atmosphere,
then
I
fill
it
up.
That's
under
case
mr.
F
Chairman
of
two
things
on
representatives
point
about
franchise
fees,
I
think
corporations
is
looking
at
franchise
fees
and
they
they
are
kind
of
another
tax
on
electricity,
that's
received
at
the
local
level
with
respect
to
the
solar
issue,
it
didn't
happen.
It
barely
happened
at
this
committee
I
think,
but
at
corporations
committee
is
kasper
and
also
at
the
minerals
they
have
been
discussing.
The
returns
from
solar
and
I.
Think
maybe
there's
no
obvious
is
here
today,
but
for
lobbyists
of
attorney
industry.
There's.
F
Installation
in
Toronto
bench
and
it's
in
your
district
rights,
both
you
guys
so
when
they
found,
is
that
they
can't
mine
the
trona
underneath
the
the
solar
installation
which
is
raising
hackles
about
how
much
compensation
we
actually
get
for
it
and
we
find
out.
We
actually
don't
get
anything,
but
it
precludes
a
lot
of
other
use
of
any
other
resource
there
and
there's
no
industrial
siting
process
to
look
at
that,
and
that's
it's
maybe
something
that
we
want
to
take
up.
So
it
might
be
nice
to
have
more
generic.
D
And
how
do
you
start
really
thinking
about
that
as
well,
and
it
seems
to
me-
and
this
is
just
my
two
cents-
that
we
certainly
don't
launch
lifetime
of
Christians.
That
concerns
me
when
we
have
lifetime
exemptions,
but
economic
diversification
to
get
companies
here
and
to
start
with
that
development
is
relevant
to
me.
So
I'd
be
curious.
What
other
states
are
doing
along
those
lines
as
well.
D
C
Chairman
representative
Connolly,
that
does
kind
of
remind
me
in
regard
to
what
I've
had
up
for
the
state
of
Montana
in
regard
to
their
exemptions,
but
for
a
period
of
time,
if
it's
one
mega
water
or
less,
then
it's
exempt
from
property
tax
for
five
years.
If
it's
one
megawatt
or
more
than
the
facility
is
taxed
at
50
percent
for
the
first
five
years,
and
then
that
50
percent
has
ratcheted
down
so
it's
paying
the
full
amount
by
year.
10
I
think
that's
an
example
of
what
you
were
getting
into.
A
F
A
D
D
So
there's
a
number
of
factors
that
will
never
probably
get
right,
but
the
I
picked
the
number
in
the
middle,
which
was
800
pounds
of
coal
to
to
produce
a
megawatt
hour
of
electricity
at
a
an
average
sevens
tax
rate
of
sixty
four
point:
six
six
cents
per
ton
that
generated
a
credit
against
the
generation
tax
of
ten
million
six
hundred
eighty
one
thousand
dollars
and
at
a
dollar
per
megawatt
hour,
assessed
against
all
well
in
generations
of
electricity.
The
tax
would
generate
roughly
thirty
six
million
dollars
in
tax.
D
D
That
obviously
is
different
on
the
western
side
of
the
state,
where
we
have
a
higher
BTU
coal,
but
also
higher
sulfur
coal.
So
that's
good!
It
will
never
be
an
exact
number
and
W
have
to
see
the
coal
burned,
but
it
gives
us
a
reasonable
starting
point.
We're
gonna
determine
what
the
net
amount
of
tax
would
be
generated.
B
D
D
F
F
Rate
and
collect
the
same
amount
of
taxes
in
a
different
way,
but
in
our
Constitution,
where
we
talk
about
an
income
tax,
severance
wouldn't
be
the
only
deductible.
Absolutely
it
depends
how
we
structure
it.
It
could
be
all
other
taxes,
it
could
be
severance
ad
valorem
and
sales
tax
for
the
same
thing.
So
that
would
change
this,
and
if
we
did
it
on
the
basis
of
a
gross
receipts,
that
would
change
everything
in
a
big
way
as
well
and
maybe
go
down
dr.
Gatti's
idea
of
making
the
tax
lossless
floating
but
I
mean
certainly
weren't.
F
F
D
Okay,
it's
when
you
say
it
is
done
in
in
lieu
of
property
taxes.
Then
you
have
to
start
looking
at
okay,
you
just
being
an
exemption
for
property
tax
on
the
offer,
all
the
personal
property
for
that
particular
producer.
That
has
an
impact
on
this
state
and
quite
substantially
on
local
government
in
this
state.
So
you've
got
to
offset
and
figure
out.
What
is
that?
What
is
the
cost
of
that?
And
what
is
the
net
benefit
to
the
state
for
this
task?
The.
D
F
F
There
is
a
complication,
complicating
issue
and
that
the
taxpayer
is
the
utility
company
and
some
of
the
severance
taxes
paid
on
minerals
that
could
be
a
different
company,
so
we'd
have
to
craft
this
to
allow
those
to
flow
through
from
one
taxpayer
to
another
taxpayer,
but
I
think
it
would
be
appropriate.
It's
it's
embedded
in
the
question
is
how
easy
existed,
minister
in
the
end,
they're
dealing
with
fairly
large
entities,
which
makes
it
easier
to
this.
D
Was
one
of
the
issues
associated
with
this?
To
begin
with?
Is
that
you're
saying
that
you're
going
to
offer
a
credit
for
severance
taxes
paid?
Well,
it
is
the
mental
producer
that
pays
the
severance
taxes
and
it
is
utility
that
buys
that
fully
tax
coal
from
the
producer.
So
they
would
have
no
idea
of
knowing
exactly
how
much
the
tax
the
producer
paid
unless
that
was
part
of
the,
but
not.
A
A
E
D
You,
mr.
chairman
members
of
the
committee,
my
name
is
Joe.
Steering
with
Wyoming
Contractors
Association
I
was
wanted
to
come
up
here
and
introduce
to
our
members.
Talk
to
me
some
of
the
other
benefits
that
we
see
from
wind
energy,
the
construction
side
of
things,
some
of
those
early
early
benefits
that
were
discussed
earlier
today
on
Dennis
bright
spot.
For
our
number
of
our
members.
We
have
Jeff
octave
or
Jeff
McDonald
with
often
halt
construction.
D
D
In
2018,
our
peak
employment
was
106
and
three
people
I'm
happy
to
tell
the
committee
that
in
June
this
year
we
had
230
people
and
we
work
in
Montana.
Quite
that's
been
said
about
Montana
between
you
and
me
in
the
fence
posts.
I,
don't
think.
I
would
look
to
Montana
for
a
lot
of
guidance
on
how
to
run.
Apparently,
that's
just
from
being
I
work
in
Montana
in
Montana
do
T
job
six
people
from
Montana,
that's
our
home
office.
Where
we
started
in
1960s.
D
We
have
16
people
and
we
are
working
at
coal
strip
at
the
coal-fired
power
plant
there
we
have
27
people,
we've
worked
at
at
Montana
for
over
40
years
every
year
you
work
for
them
and
we
help
build
units
one
and
two
and
we're
gonna
help
shut
them
down
and
that's
a
real
disappointment
to
us.
We
love
coal.
We
love
mining
jobs,
we
love
power
plants,
but
that's
the
reality.
We're
at
after
all
those
years
working
a
coal
strip
is
we're.
Gonna
help
shut
them
down
in
Wyoming.
D
In
1992,
there
were
four
of
us:
wind
farms,
36
people,
new,
electric
substations,
44
people,
so
our
biggest
head
count
right
now
is
working
on
the
new
electric
substations
for
Pacific
Corp
and
we're
very
proud
to
work
for
them.
We
were
very
proud
of
the
investment
that
they
are
making
in
Wyoming
just
to
hit
a
little
bit
on
taxes.
They
know.
Obviously
this
is
revenue
just
on
the
three
electrical
substations
in
southern
Wyoming.
We're
gonna,
buy
six
point:
four
million
dollars
worth
of
gravel
to
help
build
those
substations.
D
That's
just
a
tiny
fraction
of
that
investment
and
we're
buying
from
you
know:
Wyoming
companies,
McMurray
ready-mix
from
Casper
we're
buying
from
their
Rawlins
quarry
in
Carbon,
County
and
Lewis
and
Lewis
from
Rock.
Springs
is
the
other
supplier
that
we're
buying
6.4
million
dollars
worth
gravel
this
year,
we're
going
to
pay
three
hundred
twenty
thousand
dollars
in
sales
tax,
just
on
that
one
purchase
alone
and
again
that
investment
of
December
Corp
is
making
of
billions
of
dollars
and
why
I
was
going
to
get
a
hell
of
a
lot
of
money
in
sales
tax.
D
From
that,
and
that's
a
good
thing,
you
know
we
also,
we
do
land
doors,
I.
Think
wind
farms
are
great.
It's
spreading
wealth
to
rural
areas
that
really
need
it.
We
worked
at
one
of
the
quote:
smaller
wind
farms.
Last
year
in
Albany
County,
we
paid
the
landowner
over
$80,000
as
well
to
gravel
and
$7,000
in
water
brought
water
brought
to
money
to
help
get
started
on
that
wind
farm.
That's
a
good
payday
for
range
that
was
good
payday
for
Lando
there's
any
questions
I'd
be
happy
to
yeah.
Thank
you.
Thank
you.
D
Thank
You,
mr.
chairman
I'm,
here
today
representing
the
Granite
Peak
group.
As
this
managing
partner,
the
Granite
Peak
group
is
a
family
of
companies,
we're
headquartered
in
Wyoming.
Our
companies
include
several
rail
assets,
construction,
company,
land
developments,
properties,
manufacturing
logistics
and
we
serve
many
industries.
Our
companies,
in
what
over
300
people
in
the
state
of
Wyoming's,
the
companies
and
employees
of
the
grantee
group,
would
benefit
from
current
economic
activity,
and
we
rely
on
future
development
and
growth
in
all
industries.
To
maintain
and.
D
That
the
wind
industry,
like
all
the
industries
that
we
market
to
is,
is
a
competitive
business
for
development
dollars
and
investment
dollars.
And
then
all
factors
are
and
put
into
economic
models,
and
so
I'm
just
here
to
encourage
the
state
to
give
long-term
certainty
not
to
how
to
drill
into
the
specifics.
F
A
H
H
Most
poor
work,
environment
or
works
vary
from
residential
industrial
heavy
highway
along
the
way
in
the
last
few
years.
It's
really
branched
out
into
the
engine
energy
industry,
we're
currently
working
on
multiple
projects
in
the
state,
including
the
Power
Company
Wyoming's
project,
south
of
Rollins.
H
Western
medicine
boat,
we
employ
75
people
and
we
currently
have
over
30
of
those
working
on
those
wind
projects.
Our
industry
has
definitely
changed
quite
a
bit.
There's
a
lot
of
opportunity
out
of
there
with
that.
Our
employment
has
gone
up
from
about
sixty
people
two
years
ago
to
75
now
substantial
increase.
H
We've
made
a
lot
of
increase
in
additional
sales
tax,
buying
new
equipment
to
do
these
projects
more
pressures
out
there
more
trucks,
more
curators,
along
with
that,
we
have
fuel
taxes,
more
trucks
out
on
the
road
like
that,
more
employees
out
there,
so
those
employees
are
out
there
spending
more
money
in
sales
taxes,
taxes,
so
I
would
just
like
to
say
I,
hope,
Wyoming
by
the
way
other
than
the
direct
tax
to
continue
to
support
new
business
and
Wyoming
as
Internet
supports
other
businesses.
When.
D
Mostly
Thank
You,
mr.
chairman,
this
is
McMurray
renovates
through
the
crushing
operation
of
gravel
operations,
also
supply
suppliers
such
as
mobile,
concrete.
Yes,
on
these
projects,
yes
or
does
mobile,
concrete,
also
Hanna
for
ease
crush
their
own
or
do
they
mostly
live
in
these
cases?
This
these
two
particular
programs.
H
D
A
F
D
F
A
H
E
A
H
And
GSS
we're
in
the
logistics
part
of
it.
You
guys
have
heard
much
about
the
logistics
part
of
it.
There
was
a
bill
bill
120
with
the
help
of
something
logistics,
complications
of
the
taxes
of
our
state
that
was
passed
by
sarahfey
you
and
I.
Thank
you
for
your
votes
and
then,
when
talks
with
governor,
which
was
vetoed
last
day,
the
bill
was
introduced
to
help
with
logistics.
We
have
rail
yards
in
78,
County
New
Mexico's
last
week.
H
It
means
eight
states
and
the
infrastructure
for
the
rail
systems
is
to
build
the
rail
systems
to
move
the
product.
That's
big
product,
it's
heavy
product.
It
takes
up
space,
the
PTC
tax
credits
require
storage
up
to
four
years,
so
a
lot
of
our
yards
have
products.
In
over
four
years,
a
lot
of
developers
are
buying
product
for
23:24,
currently
and
I'm.
Moving
from
the
house
this
week,
putting
them
in
for
storage,
even
with
the
ptc
tax
eliminated.
H
H
H
Were
on
the
board
so
I'm
going
on
the
board?
Fortunately,
we
get
saved
a
lot
of
meetings
with
developers
and
where
they're
planning,
before
their
public
knowledge
and
the
tax
environment
is
scary,
especially
something
governor
put
a
big
veto
on
something
limited
said:
we're
open
for
business.
No
we're
closed
for
business,
so
you
guys
have
a
real
big.
H
To
recruit
more
development
in
our
state,
my
sympathy
trust
me
a
couple
of
things
about
the
taxes
and
whiling
and
I
think
I
heard
it
was
right.
800
pounds
of
coal
makes
me
one
megawatt.
Well,
if
you
do
the
calculation,
that's
26
cents
per
megawatt.
Wind
pays
a
dollar.
That's
a
pretty
big
difference
that
another
fender.
For
instance,
the
Cedar
Ridge
project
industrial
site
in
community,
gives
10
million
dollars
for
impact.
That's
for
the
roads,
they're
going
to
be
on
the
roads.
This
big
product
coming
out,
Casper
garage
China!
H
H
H
They
improve
our
infrastructure
that
isn't
we're
going
to
have
an
equal
across
the
word,
meaning
that
really
look
at
all
the
equals
across
the
word
and
I
realize
there
is
some
some
impacts
with
the
win,
but
when
we
deliver
the
product,
that's
a
13-week
product
after
that
we're
not
on
the
roads.
So
it's
not
a
long-term
deal.
If
it's
a
short-term
deal,
that's
an
awful
lot
of
money
that
were
given
to
the
counties
impact.
H
The
other
thing
I
want
to
talk
about
is
New
Mexico,
because
we
just
locked
up
a
dealing
in
Mexico,
and
that
is
the
next
booth
that
governor
standing
on
her
front,
porch
screaming
I,
won't
win
and
I
want
solar
I
met
with
both
of
her
governor
and
her
in
Vail
Colorado,
and
she
is
probe
in.
She
said
how
they
were
seeing
legislature.
H
Currently
we
have
350
employees.
Unfortunately,
we
only
have
about
12
and
what
you'd
like
to
bring
more
people
back
to
Wyoming
I'm
doing
this
with
120
reestablish.
You
have
the
opportunity
for
that.
But
if
we
continue
to
push
more
for
taxes,
you're
gonna
see
development
fall
off
dramatically
in
time
for.
D
D
H
Sure,
well,
the
bills
wrote
the
chat
to
pay
their
sales
tax.
Today
at
London
he
took
possession
and
then
you
were
exempt
to
tell
it
was
in
production
or
two
years
so
had
to
be
produced
electricity
or
up
in
the
air
and
or
if
it's
set
longer
than
two
years
you
started
paying
their
sales
tax
on.
It
was
an
incentive
to,
and
it's
not
just
for
Linda's
for
all
energy.
We
have
quite
a
good
product
for
Chesapeake,
and
several
oil
cop
will
sit
in
our
yard.
H
They'll
have
to
pay
taxes,
December
31st,
that's
been
built
ahead
of
schedule.
There's
a
couple
of
companies
now
in
Colorado
and
there's
a
couple
of
manufacturers
here,
just
testified.
We
have
some
of
their
products,
they've
already
sold
it,
but
it
sets
in
our
yards
until
it
has
to
move
the
field.
Well,
if
it
doesn't
mean
regard
on
December
31st,
they
have
to
pay
a
property
tax
on
it,
so
it
would
help
all
of
the
energy
sectors.
H
D
H
This
is
short
that
correct
you.
You
have
that
correct.
I
know
that
when
I
met
with
the
governor
last
week,
he
said
that
the
villain
worked
out.
You
think
he
likes
the
new
look
of
it.
You
wouldn't
share
with
me
what
that
look.
Yes,
so
I
don't
know
if
it's
been
changed,
but
at
the
current
time
that
it
was
voted
on,
it
was
a
two-year
exemption
from
that
you
start
paying
protects.
The
offset
of
that
was
if
you've
got
your
sales
tax
up
front.
H
So
you
got
your
sales
tax
two
years
before
the
product
was
bought
because
efficiently
they
would
buy
it
when
it
lands
on
the
path.
So
this
is
a
system
that
we've
got
more
revenues
before
the
state
up
front
and
good
wait
two
years,
and
then
we
have
that
sales
tax
within
the
property
tax
itself
so
a
benefit
at
the
state
two
years
ahead.
D
D
A
Would
like
address
committee,
this
bill
actually
went
through
the
minerals
committee,
both
the
House
and
the
Senate
I.
Don't
know
how
it
was
a
fascinating
discussion
on
the
floor
of
the
house
and
actually
in
the
nice
circle.
But
if
you
know
only
because
of
some
of
the
exact
issues,
a
governor
raised
his
vetoes
letter
that
the
ideas.
E
A
A
D
H
Thank
you
for
the
question
because
it
was
my
first
time
I've
been
to
the
Western
Conference,
though
it's
a
coalition
of
roughly
nine
governors
and
you
get
30
minutes
of
time
with
them.
Then
so
I
went
in
there
with
some
developers,
some
that
are
developing
Wyoming,
some
that
aren't
developing
longing
that
are
looking
to
come
to
Wyoming
and
the
other
state.
So
you
went
to
when
we
talked
to
Governor
Gordon,
it
was
regarded
in
bill
120
that
I
brought
up
just
you
know
women
to
talk
to
him.
H
E
H
With
win
is,
if
you
felt
a
win
for
him,
you
can't
might
try.
You
can't
get
the
Toronto,
which
is
interesting,
that
he
said
that
so
that
was
his
whole
hold
up
for.
When
we
went
into
the
governor
of
New
Mexico,
it
was
laughs
joke.
It
was
a
whole
different
attitude.
She
was
welcoming
us,
she
was.
What
can
I
do
for
you
tell
me
what
you
need.
I
love,
win,
I
need
more
people
who
knew
our
state
or
a
senior
citizen
state.
H
What
can
I
do
to
help
you
and
we
told
her
what
we
needed
and
she
says
I'll
get
right
on
it.
They've
contacted
us
every
single
week,
the
development,
so
it
was
fine.
Today
it
was
totally
two
different
meetings
that
we
had
same
people
in
the
meeting
room,
but
two
different
governors,
one
other
and
I,
would
like
to
add
and
Senator
Casey
keeps
mentioning.
This
is
a
pass
on
tax
I'm,
a
customer
Rocky
Mountain
Power,
so
it's
passed
on
to
me.
I
will
get
this
tax
I'll
pay
it.
Personally.
My
companies
will
pay
it
all.
H
My
employees
will
pay
it.
The
other
thing
is
when
you
sign
a
PPA-
and
you
might
understand
this-
if
you
sign
a
PPA
for
$20-
a
megawatt
you're
paying
$1,
you
can't
pass
that
on
it's
very
sold.
It
started
locked
in
you,
don't
get
a
pass
that
tax
on
you've
got
to
eat
that
tax.
If
it
changes,
you
can't
go
to
the
PPA
school
and
say:
oh
by
the
way
I'm
going
to
charge
you
guys
X
more.
It
doesn't
work
that
way.
It
is
a
lot
in
models.
H
D
D
H
President,
a
district
yeah
I
do
I
agree
with
Senator
case.
There
might
be
a
percentage
you
put,
it
makes
more
sense.
You
could
choose
more
electric
lectures
that
we
make.
You
know
more
money
if
it's,
if
it
goes
down
their
costs,
go
down,
it
would
be
in
line
with
with
with
:
oil.
I
can't
imagine
if
we
said
we're
gonna
charge
$10
a
barrel
to
the
oil
guys
flat
ten
bucks.
They
in
oil
drops
to
20
bucks.
What
would
they
do?
H
Everybody,
the
other
business,
so
you
kinda
got
a
look
at
that
model
and
that's
been
successful
in
the
state
and
saying
the
coal
has
been
successful.
So
I
think
that
needs
to
looked
at
pretty
hard
in
Wyoming
I
believe
in
the
percentage
would
make
more
sense
than
if
just
flat
amount,
because
the
costs
are
going
to
continue
to
come
down
with
technology.
E
Hi
I've
addressed
y'all
before
I'm
Cindy,
Wallace
executive,
director
of
Carbon
County,
Economic,
Development,
Corporation
and
I
represent
the
county,
where
most
of
all
the
wind
development
is
happening.
There's
six
counties
right
now
in
the
state
that
has
when
development
there
could
be
a
few
more,
but
we
have
the
most.
E
I've
been
in
economic
development
for
close
to
twenty
six
twenty
seven
years,
I've
been
in
Wyoming
now
for
ten
years,
so
I
dealt
with
my
economic
development
job
in
Kansas,
the
term
from
we
have
a
lot
of
land
industry
there,
as
well
as
manufacturing
plants,
lay
down
the
may
sell
companies,
all
of
that
and
the
whole
industry
around
it.
So
this
isn't
new
to
me.
E
I
worked
with
farmers
and
developers
also
became
in
fact,
I
have
some
land
in
Kansas
I
would
love
to
have
it
would
help
out
my
income
but
I
get
off
women
in
any
way,
I'm
representing
and
also
and
I'll,
get
to
that
in
a
minute
I'm.
Also
the
vice
chair
of
our
carbon
care,
mr.
counsel,
port
directors,
so
I'm
going
to
address
one
thing
yet
I
just
came
back
from
visiting
family
in
Kansas,
so
I
don't
have
the
letter
from
them,
but
she
sent
it
to
me
via
email,
but
the
wind
power
industry
we
need.
E
It
brings
us
new
revenue,
new
jobs
and
it
just
trying
to
come
up
with
different
industries
trying
to
come
into
your
area
community.
We
have
a
chance
for
close
to
12
million.
No
excuse
me
12
billion
dollars
in
capital
investment
alone
in
our
County
and
we're
not
having
to
pay
them
any
incentives.
They're
not
asking
for
anything
they're,
not
asking
for
grants
through
the
Business,
Council
or
incentives
or
say
take
away
property
taxes.
E
E
We've
got
close
to
a
12
billion
right
now
between
Rocky
Mountain
Power
and
their
projects,
and
the
Power
Company
y-you
know
me,
though,
with
their
transmission
lines
as
well.
That's
9
million
dollar
capital
investment.
Now,
when
you
all
want
that
to
come
to
your
state
or
your
county,
and
each
county
has
the
right
to
say
if
they
want
wind
development
in
their
County
or
not
that's.
Why
there's
all
these
regulations
out
there
that
they
have
to
go
through?
They
have
to
meet
all
the
binding
criteria
and
there's
federal
state
and
county
permit
regulations
exist.
E
If
your
county
doesn't
want
it,
that's
fine,
you
can
you
have
the
permitting
and
the
regulations
say
yes
or
no
to
it.
So,
if
you
think
the
whole
state
would
give
wind
projects,
it's
not
gonna
happen.
There's
parts
of
state
where
the
wind
projects
will
actually
work
very
well.
They
just
don't
have
the
wind
resource
there,
but
in
Carbon
County
we
have
probably
some
of
the
best
wind
resources,
and
this
is
one
of
the
best
economic
opportunities
that
we
have.
E
Medicine
Bow
and
Hammond
especially,
is
going
to
benefit
that
it's
going
to
benefit
not
only
our
County
that
the
surrounding
counties
around
us
when
Hanna
lost
their
coal
mines
in
early
two-thousands
they've
lost
over
half
of
their
population.
Now
it's
it's
been.
It
was
major.
Nobody
came
in
to
help
Hanna
no
money
from
federal
state
or
local.
They
didn't
come
in
and
say
we'll
help
you.
Let's
do
this.
We
want
to
keep
your
coal
mines
there.
E
Nobody
help
them.
This
is
a
bright
bright
spot,
especially
for
our
little
world
communities.
They've
already
got
some
businesses
that
are
looking
and
looking
at
opportunities
to
open
up.
We've
got
a
restaurant
that
closed
down
they're
reopening
with
all
the
construction
people
coming
in
it's
a
great
opportunity.
There
are
campgrounds
they're,
reopening
campgrounds,
developing
things.
The
hotels
are
full,
we've
got
a
tire
shop
that
wants
to
come
in
out
there.
It's
there's
other
companies
that
are
looking
to
come
out.
E
I
went
to
the
wind
power
show
last
years
going
in
Euston
this
year
in
my
broth
with
me,
maps
of
all
of
our
twin
projects
that
are
coming
in
and
you
have
there's
companies
out
there
that
are.
These
are
the
ancillary
companies
that
would
come
because
there's
people
that's
got
to
do
all
the
repair
work,
so
repair
work
and
servicing
and
there's
other
opportunities
setting
up
offices.
So
it
brings
other
jobs.
We're
going
to
diversify
our
economy
in
Dow
shows
diversify
our
economy.
E
We
have
found
it
right
here
with
our
wind
energy
business
and
us
in
Carbon
County.
This
is
a
opportunity
that
we
can't
afford
to
pass
up,
I've
gone
out
and
trying
to
recruit
data
centers.
We
we
had
a
visit,
but
we're
not
large
enough
look
at
opportunities
that
this
brings
to
some
of
our
counties
not
only
to
our
counties
but
to
the
whole
state,
but
many
that
it's
going
to
bring
in.
It's
been
a
benefit,
and
that's
where
you
get
your
economic
diversity,
I
think
I've
also
talked
you
see.
E
I
sent
you
the
letter
about
this.
If
all
of
our
wind
energy
projects
happen
without
318
new
jobs,
318
in
a
county
of
less
than
16,000
people,
it's
going
to
benefit,
we
bring
in
more
people
right
now,
kids
are
leaving
there's
opportunities,
and
you
know
what
they
get
out
of
high
school
or
college.
There's
opportunities
to
keep
our
kids
here
at
home
through
the
wind
technician,
training
program
and
the
various
jobs
that
just
help
these
companies
will
bring
in.
E
In
fact,
Laramie
County
Community
College
has
their
wind
technician,
training
program
and
our
Carbon
County
higher
ed
would
like
to
possibly
bring
some
more
training
programs
for
this.
This
could
keep
some
of
our
younger
people
at
home
and
bring
them
in
and
I
think
you're
all
wanting
to,
hopefully
make
sure
they
come
in.
E
So
we
are
against
any
increase
of
any
of
the
wind
production
texts.
Leave
them
alone,
leave
it
where
it
is.
Let
everything
happen.
It's
going
to
end
up
being
better
for
the
state
and
for
the
county,
we'll
bring
in
more
funding
and
more
money,
because,
right
now,
if
taxes
keep
going
up,
there
could
be
a
few
developers
that
will
not
even
consider
coming
in
now
and
I'm
going
to
address
the
visual
impacts
that
you
bring.
You
keep
bringing
up.
First
of
all
from
our
Carbon
County
visitor
council.
Our
win
I'm
gonna
pass
these
around.
E
E
We
see
this
as
a
tourist
opportunity
for
our
County
as
well
I
understand
our
company
looming
may
put
some
interpretation
of
signage
and
talk
about
there's,
you
know,
there's
going
to
be
the
largest
wind
farm
in
the
country
could
be
the
world,
but
that
is
a
tourist
attraction
and
we
can
make
it
that
way
and
Carbon
County.
Mr.
Council,
like
I,
said
those
are
there
stickers
they
developed,
but
they
don't
see
that
our
tourism
has
been
even
negatively
impacted
by
anything.
E
The
installed
wind
energy
that's
already
there
and
they
recognize
that
wind
turbines
are
part
of
our
local
landscape
and
they've
identified
them
in
our
Carbon
County
sticker.
And
then,
when
we
have
our
150th
anniversary
with
Union
Pacific,
we
have
a
sticker
that
had
training
and
the
wind
turbines
all
on
the
same,
stick
personally
and
I'm
speaking
for
myself
now
not
to
Bourbon,
County,
economical
or
anything
I.
E
Actually,
you
know,
visual
impact
is
some
people,
you
don't
like
it,
but
I
do
and
I
know
a
lot
of
people
that
do
they
think
they're
beautiful
I
can
stand
and
have
the
winter
I
see
everything
in
LaVista
around
it.
I
can
still
see
it.
I
see
it
all,
maybe
they're
up
so
high
and
you're
not
going
to
put
them
next
to
your
mountains
or
anything
that
close.
You
know,
you
can't
put
it
on
a
mountain,
so
I
can
see
everything.
It
hasn't
really
impacted
it,
but
it's
personal
preference.
E
E
As
far
as
people
saying
they're
their
destiny
act
like
you
can
go
actually
power
company
winery,
but
there's
back
behind
several
Hills.
You
can't
see
it
from
the
inside.
If
you
want
to
go
see
if
you
go
drive
out
to
it.
Okay,
so
that's
that's
my
take.
Don't
don't
raise
any
of
the
taxes
on
this
left?
The
economics
happen.
If
you
tax
this,
let
the
county
regulate
whether
you
have
a
wind
farm.
They're,
not
please,
don't
keep
trying
to
increase
the
taxes.
They
need
certainty.
E
If
you
had
a
manufacturer,
a
data
center
want
to
come
in
and
you
say:
okay,
we're
gonna.
Have
you
come
in
you're
already
getting
started
to
go?
Oh
wait!
A
minute!
We're
gonna
raise
the
tax
again
on
you.
You
think
they're
gonna
finish
up
a
project
they
may
or
may
not
or
others.
If
they
hear
about
it,
they
may
say
we're
not
going
to
come
because
the
to
raise
our
taxes
from
there's
no
certainty.
Why
are
you
doing
this
to
an
industry?
E
A
A
E
E
New
people
come
in
heaven.
Did
you
get
new
people
to
move
to
your
town?
So
you
know,
there's
you
know,
that's
what
we're
all
after
we're
trying
to
grow
him
bring
new
companies
and
new
jobs.
So
you
have,
there
might
be
some
impact,
they
say
crime
on
whatever,
because
you
have
more
people,
so
you
might
have
to
increase
your
your
place
or
sheriff
force,
but
that
comes
with
any
company.
That's
going
to
be
coming
in.
It's.
F
F
E
E
F
F
A
F
I
just
put
it
kind
of
in
perspective:
it's
not
about
defending
coal,
but
a
coal
plant
losing
more
did
you.
Printer
plat
would
produce
more
probably
than
all
these
together.
It
depends
whether
they
all
operate
all
the
time,
but
on
a
net
basis,
and
that
probably
has
a
so
it's
it's
hard
to
think
about
all
this
in
terms
of
the
impact.
A
E
F
So
mr.
chairman,
and
just
in
terms
of
mr.
Wallace
and
I,
get
your
feeling
about
the
few
escapes
and
the
wind
towers
and
how
important
they
are
I
mean
people
see
that
differently.
Yes,
so
we
have
to
be
fair
about
that,
because
one
thing
about
Wyoming
in
my
own
line
is
it's
one
of
the
largest
undisturbed
areas
in
the
continental
US.
That.
F
When
I
see
when
I
travel
across
this
great
country
and
I
go
to
the
Midwest
and
I
look
at
land
that
was
formerly
for
us,
and
now
is
agriculture
and
now
has
wound
turbines.
I,
don't
feel
quite
the
impact
of
when
I
stand
and
look
at
the
shore
Basin,
for
example,
and
I
see
darn
near
the
exact
Vista
that
early
settlers
saw
the
Native
Americans
saw
thousands
of
years
ago,
and
so
it's
a
pretty
big
change.
It's
equivalent
to
cutting
down
the
forests
in
the
Midwest
and
I
know.
F
A
D
Sorry,
the
one
pager
my
ass
and
just
pointing
to
the
line
items
dealing
with
thermal
generations
of
coal
generation
and
41
million
dollar
increase.
His
substantial
I
do
recognize.
There
was
an
offset
for
part
of
that
with
severance
tax.
I
appreciate
that
was
brought
up.
I
believe
my
charm
case
that
there
would
be
some
difficulty
in
getting
that.
We
have
coal
supply
agreements
with
many
of
those
suppliers
who
are
paying
that
severance
tax.
So
it's
I
don't
know
operationally
how
I
would
offset
attacks
that
I'm
not
paying
and
paying
it
through
the
fuel
costs.
D
But
how
do
I
renegotiate
a
contract
that
need
to
be
discussed,
but
even
with
that,
you
know
a
30-plus
million
dollar
increase
to
our
coal
plants
at
a
time
when
we're
trying
to
find
ways
to
make
them
more
economic
to
get
them
to
last
longer
would
certainly
be
problematic
to
do
something
that
I
would
point
out.
Just
another
thought
as
well
related
to
that.
D
D
A
Cogan
facility,
or
even
a
residential
customer
through
a
rooftop
solar
facility,
so
sometimes
we
pay
additional
public
policy
costs
that
others
don't
so,
whether
it's
a
franchise
fee,
whether
it's
a
new
electricity
production
tax,
we
would
just
ask
that
all
producers
be
treated
equally
and
that's
truly
a
playing
field.
My
last
comment
is
just
I,
appreciated
that
the
spreadsheet
outlining
the
different
states
and
sort
of
their
policies
on
that
I've
learned
a
lot.
I
would
just
point
out
that
multiple
times
throughout
that
document,
the
phrase
in
lieu
of
was
presented
and
I.
D
Don't
know
the
background
on
all
of
those
states,
but
there's
one
or
two
in
which
we
do
business.
I
know
one
in
particular
that
particular
tax
was
intended
to
encourage
developments,
so
the
in
lieu
of
was
not
just
simply
an
offset
but
trying
to
encourage
development
by
reduce
that
customer
or
that
developers
tax
burden.
So
just
as
you
look
at
other
states,
I
would
just
encourage
you
to
try
to
analyze
what
are
intended
as
true
revenue
generators,
as
opposed
to
perhaps
by
encouraging
development.
That's.
D
Are
you
active
in
the
long
run
and
then
I'm
the
other
side
of
the
scale
of
power
company,
chairman
or
system?
The
tax
regime
is
similar.
The
only
difference
would
be
as
comparing
it
to
a
RFP
process
that
must
take
provision
of
a
convention.
That's
not
dealing
with
taxation.
That's
dealing
with
sort
of
a
competitive
marketplace
versus
we
must
take
requirement
for.