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From YouTube: Main Estimates - Ministry of Infrastructure
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A
A
A
A
A
B
Good
morning,
everyone
I'd
like
to
call
the
meeting
to
order
and
welcome
everyone
in
attendance,
hello,
members.
Before
we
begin
our
meeting,
considering
the
main
estimates
of
the
ministry
of
infrastructure,
I
would
like
to
suggest
we
take
a
moment
of
silence
to
remember
the
two
members
of
the
Edmonton
Police
Service,
who
were
killed
in
the
line
of
duty
early
this
morning.
Her
thoughts
are
with
the
families
of
the
officers
who
were
killed
and
the
entire
law
enforcement
Community
who
are
grieving.
This
loss.
B
Thank
you.
The
committee
has
under
consideration
the
estimates
of
the
ministry
of
infrastructure
for
the
fiscal
year,
ending
March
31
2024.
I'd.
Ask
that
we
go
around
the
table
and
have
members
introduce
themselves
for
the
record
and
Minister.
Please
introduce
the
officials
who
are
joining
you
at
the
table
when
it
becomes
your
turn.
My
name
is
Glenn
Van
Dyke
and
I'm,
the
MLA
for
Athabasca
bar
head
Westlock
and
the
chair
of
this
committee,
and
we
and
we
begin
starting
to
my
right.
B
Thank
you
I'd
like
to
note
the
following
substitutions
for
the
record
Miss
Rosen
for
honorable
Mrs
Armstrong
hominiak
a
few
housekeeping
items
to
address
before
we
turn
to
the
business
at
hand.
Please
note
that
the
microphones
are
operated
by
Hansard
staff
committee.
Proceedings
are
live
streamed
on
the
internet
and
broadcast
on
Alberta
assembly
TV.
B
The
audio
and
video
stream
and
transcripts
of
meetings
can
be
accessed
via
the
Legislative
Assembly
website.
Members
who
wish
to
be
placed
on
a
speaker's
list
should
signal
to
the
chair.
Please
set
your
cell
phones
and
other
devices
to
silent
for
the
duration
of
the
meeting
honorable
members.
The
standing
order
set
out
the
process
for
consideration
of
the
main
estimates.
B
A
total
of
three
hours
has
been
scheduled
for
consideration
of
the
estimates
for
the
ministry
of
infrastructure
standing
order,
59,
Section,
1,
subsection
6
establishes
the
speaking
rotation
and
speaking
times
in
brief,
the
minister
or
member
of
executive
Council,
acting
on
The
Minister's
behalf
we'll
have
10
minutes
to
address
the
committee
at
the
conclusion
of
The
Minister's
comments.
A
60-minute
speaking
block
for
the
official
opposition
begins
followed
by
a
20-minute
speaking
block
for
independent
members.
B
After
this
speaking
times
will
follow
the
same
rotation
of
the
official
opposition,
independent
members
and
the
government
caucus
the
member
and
the
minister
may
speak
May
equal
once
for
a
maximum
five
minutes,
or
these
times
may
be
combined
making
it
a
10-minute
block
members
when
determining
between
block
time
and
combined
time,
we
will
proceed
with
either
block
or
combine
time
throughout
the
entirety
of
the
speaking
block.
That's
determined
at
the
beginning
of
the
speaking
Block
members
will
be
able
to
see
their
time
to
their
colleague,
but
remember.
B
If,
if
members
have
any
questions
regarding
speaking
times
or
the
rotation,
please
send
an
email
or
message
to
the
committee
clerk
about
the
process
with
the
concurrence
of
the
committee,
I
will
call
a
five-minute
break
near
the
midpoint
of
the
meeting.
However,
the
three-hour
clock
will
continue
to
run.
Does
anyone
oppose
having
the
break
seeing
none?
B
We
will
try
and
have
that
above
midpoint
of
the
meeting
Ministry
officials
may
be
present
and
at
the
descript
at
the
direction
of
the
minister
May
address
the
committee
Ministry
officials
seated
in
the
gallery,
if
called
upon,
have
access
to
a
microphone
in
the
gallery
area
and
are
asked
to
please
introduce
themselves
for
the
record
prior
to
commenting
pages
are
available
to
deliver
notes
or
other
materials
between
the
gallery
and
the
table.
Attendees
in
the
gallery
may
not
approach
the
table.
B
Space
permitting
opposition
caucus
staff
may
sit
at
the
table
to
assist
their
members.
However,
members
have
priority
to
sit
at
the
table
at
all
times.
If
debate
is
exhausted
prior
to
three
hours,
the
ministry's
estimates
are
deemed
to
have
been
considered
for
the
time
allotted
in
the
schedule,
and
the
committee
will
adjourn.
B
Points
of
order
will
be
dealt
with
as
they
arise.
Individual
speaking
times
will
be
paused.
However,
the
speaking
block
time
and
the
overall
three-hour
meeting
clock
will
continue
to
run
any
written
material
provided
in
response
to
questions
raised
during
the
main
estimates
should
be
tabled
by
the
minister
in
the
assembly
for
the
benefit
of
all
members.
B
The
vote
on
the
estimates
and
any
amendments
will
occur
in
the
committee
of
Supply
on
March
16
2023.
Today.
Amendments
must
be
in
writing
and
approved
by
parliamentary
Council
prior
to
the
meeting
at
which
they
are
to
be
moved.
The
original
amendment
is
to
be
deposited
with
a
committee
clerk
with
20
hard
copies.
An
electronic
version
of
the
signed
original
should
be
provided
to
the
committee
clerk
for
distribution
to
committee
members.
B
Finally,
the
committee
should
have
the
opportunity
to
hear
both
questions
and
answers
without
interruption
during
estimates
debate,
debate
flows
through
the
chair
at
all
times,
including
instances
when
speaking
time
is
shared
between
a
member
and
the
minister
I,
would
now
invite
the
minister
of
infrastructure
to
begin
with
your
opening
remarks,
you
have
10
minutes
Minister.
Thank.
I
You
chair
I'm
pleased
to
present
Alberta's
infrastructure,
as
estimates
for
the
2023-24
fiscal
year
and
our
2023-26
business
plan.
Just
to
reiterate
with
me
at
the
table
as
Mary
person,
my
Deputy
Minister
Dale
Beasley
assistant
Deputy,
minister
of
properties
and
Dale
Fung
assistant
Deputy
Minister
of
Finance,
also
in
the
public
Gallery
are
my
chief
of
staff,
Brian
Rogers
and
other
Ministry
Representatives
budget
2023
secures
Alberta's
future
by
growing
the
economy,
creating
good
paying
jobs,
strengthening
health
care
and
education
and
keeping
communities
safe.
I
My
Ministry
is
helping
secure,
Alberta's
future
as
a
leader
in
the
delivery
of
budget
2023's
Capital
plan
over
the
next
three
years.
The
2023
Capital
town
will
invest
nearly
23
billion
dollars
into
priority
capital
projects.
This
is
an
increase
of
2.8
billion
dollars
or
14
percent
compared
to
2022's
Capital.
Plan
of
this
total
three-year
investment,
infrastructure's
portion
is
5.4
billion
or
23
percent.
Infrastructure's
Capital
plan
has
also
increased
by
565
million
dollars
or
12
percent.
I
A
few
accomplishments
achieved
by
the
department
in
the
current
year
of
2022-23
include
the
substantial
completion
of
the
world-class
Calgary
Cancer
Center
in
November
of
2022.
To
give
you
an
idea
of
how
long
it
takes
to
build
a
project
of
this
magnitude,
please
consider
that
I'm,
the
eighth
minister
of
infrastructure,
since
the
project
was
announced
and
that
Premier
Smith
is
the
fifth
Premier
since
the
project
began.
I
This
is
the
largest
dollar
value
project
ever
delivered
by
infrastructure,
with
a
total
project
cost
of
more
than
one
point:
four
billion
dollars
and
I'm
proud
to
say
that
my
Ministry
delivered
the
project
on
time
and
on
budget
the
functional
programming
for
the
red
year.
Hospital
project
is
well
on
its
way
to
completion,
which
is
a
huge
achievement
for
that
project.
The
request
for
proposal
for
the
prime
consultant
recently
closed
and
is
under
review.
This
is
a
significa.
I
This
is
significant
because
the
prime
consultant
leads
the
design
of
the
new
hospital,
which
is
the
next
major
milestone
for
the
project.
My
government
will
announce
a
prime
consultant
prior
to
the
election
building
upon
these
accomplishments.
The
department
continues
to
build,
renew
and
maintain
public
infrastructure
like
schools,
health
and
government
facilities
that
are
Guided
by
infrastructures,
2023
26
business
plan.
I
I
This
increases
mainly
the
result
of
additional
funding
received
to
deliver
approved
school
health
and
government
facility
projects.
Capital
projects,
cash
flows
are
fine-tuned
as
projects
progress
from
planning
through
Construction
funds
in
the
capital
investment
vote,
align
with
desired
outcome,
one
of
the
Alberta
infrastructure's
business
plan,
which
is
innovation,
Innovative
adaptive
and
responsible
infrastructure
solutions
that
meet
current
and
future
provincial
needs.
This
outcome
reflects
infrastructure's
role
in
the
timely,
cost-effective
planning,
design
and
construction
of
public
facilities
that
are
necessary
to
support
the
delivery
of
government
programs
and
services.
I
The
majority
of
our
capital
investment
is
split
between
health
facilities
and
school
infrastructure.
Our
health
facilities
infrastructure
budget
2.8
billion
dollars
over
three
years
is
dedicated
to
building
new
health
facilities,
renewing
existing
ones
and
investing
in
Capital
Health,
Capital
maintenance
and
renewal.
The
includes
more
than
20
major
health
projects
underway
in
planning,
design
or
Construction
budget
2023
is
providing
634
million
dollars
over
three
years
for
the
Edmonton
Hospital
project,
the
largest
Health
Care
Project,
listed
in
the
capital
plan.
I
Project
activities
are
ongoing
and
include
the
following
site:
site:
work-related
material
deliveries,
pipeline
Integrity,
testing,
pipeline
surveys
for
crossing
agreements
and
installation
of
the
infrastructure
for
water,
sewer,
natural
gas
and
electrical
services.
We
are
working
to
finalize
and
affirm
the
functional
program.
A
multi-purpose
document
that
describes
in
detail
the
proposed
services
to
be
addressed
in
the
capital
project.
I
Functional
programming
is
Mission
critical.
It
must
be
done
before
a
project
can
go
into
the
design
phase.
It
cannot
be
overstated.
How
much
planning
work
is
required
for
a
project
of
this
size
and
complexity.
A
functional
program
translates
the
clinical
needs,
including
required
services
and
programs
into
spatial
requirements,
taking
into
consideration
the
movement
of
patients,
doctors,
nurses
and
staff
through
each
area
of
the
facility.
Therefore,
functional
programming
involves
all
Partners,
particularly
clinical
service
providers,
like
nurses
and
doctors,
patient
and
family
groups,
including
the
wisdom,
Council
Alberta,
Health,
Services,
Alberta,
Health
and
Alberta
infrastructure.
I
The
space
allocations
are
fundamental
to
the
subsequent
design
process,
which
in
turn
examines
many
aspects,
including
circulation
of
people
across
the
facility,
as
well
as
a
necessary
service
adjacencies
to
be
best
laid
out.
For
example,
certain
services
like
an
MRI,
need
to
be
close
in
close
proximity
to
the
other
services
and
patient
areas
it
needs
to
serve
if
a
functional
program
is
not
well
developed.
The
very
functionality
of
the
health
facility
would
cause
operational
issues
down
the
line
which
risk
less
optimal,
Service
delivery.
I
This
project
was
announced
in
2017
and
added
to
the
capital
Plan
before
the
business
case
and
planning
for
the
project
was
complete.
It
is
impossible
to
begin
construction
on
a
hospital
without
knowing
exactly
what
you're
going
to
build.
First,
my
government
is
finalizing
the
planning
for
this
project
and
is
committed
to
delivering
a
new
state-of-the-art
hospital
in
South
Edmonton.
I
The
lack
of
a
business
case
in
itself
meant
that
defining
the
parameters
within
the
functional
program
was
initiated
was
challenging
for
the
various
teams
that
participated
in
its
development.
It
cannot
be
stressed
hard
enough
that
sidestepping
any
planning
phase
from
a
comprehensive
needs
assessment
through
a
strong
business
case
leading
into
a
well-developed
functional
plan,
invariably
leads
to
Serious
ramifications
during
the
design
and
construction
phases.
Those
Behind,
the
Scenes
critical
phases
are
what
defines
a
successful
and
delivery
optimized
project,
especially
for
a
complex
and
large
Health
Facilities
like
the
South
Edmonton
Hospital.
I
This
includes
the
construction
of
a
new
k-6
school
in
West,
Lethbridge
and
building
a
replacement
school
for
they
call
Good
Shepherd
School
in
Okotoks,
as
well
as
to
support
public
charter
school
expansion
projects
such
as
the
charter
Hub
in
Calgary.
Currently
infrastructure
is
managing
52
school
school
projects.
These
projects
are
creating
thousands
of
jobs
and
ensuring
Alberta
students
have
access
to
world-class
learning
facilities.
Infrastructure
is
also
delivering
12
government
facility
projects
and
many
capital
maintenance,
renewal
projects
of
government-owned
facilities.
I
This
includes
my
ministry's
work
to
lead
the
government's
effort
to
ensure
Alberta
gets
its
fair
share
of
federal
funding
to
help
build
the
province.
Alberta
infrastructure
has
been
instrumental
in
securing
billions
in
federal
funding,
the
investing
Canada
infrastructure
program
or
isip.
My
government
has
secured
3.66
billion
dollars
in
federal
money
to
support
infrastructure
projects
that
strengthen
the
economy
and
build
resilient
communities
to
date.
More
than
200
projects
or
project
funnels
and
over
30
Alberta
constituencies
have
been
approved.
I
I
The
establishment
of
a
renewed
facility
evaluations
program
will
provide
services
to
client
Ministries
and
support
the
government
of
Alberta
entities.
This
government-wide
program
for
vertical
assets
will
allow
for
regular
and
consistent
evaluations
of
owned
and
supported
infrastructure,
about
90
of
all
operating
expenses
devoted
to
the
management
of
government
space,
the
most
significant
components
being
for
leases
and
Property
Management.
Much
of
this
budget
is
contract
contractually
committed,
infrastructure's
expense
vote
mainly
supports
desired
outcome.
Two
of
our
business
plan,
which
is
Alberta's
public
infrastructure,
is
effectively
and
responsibly
managed
and.
B
Sustainable
thank
you
Minister
for
the
hour
that
follows
members
of
the
official
opposition
and
the
minister
may
speak
honorable
members.
You
will
be
able
to
see
the
timer
for
the
speaking
block,
both
in
the
committee
room
and
on
Microsoft
teams.
Members.
Would
you
like
to
combine
your
time
with
the
ministers.
K
You're
all
right
with
combining
time.
I
am
yes.
Yes,
you
may
proceed.
Thank
you
very
much.
Well,
first
of
all,
thank
you
very
much
Minister
for
being
here
today
and
being
accompanied
by
your
Deputy
Minister,
and
another
staff
is
greatly
appreciated
that
you're
here
today
and,
of
course,
with
the
line
of
questioning
I
want
you
to
let
you
know
I'm
not
here,
to
play
politics
I'm,
not
here,
to
do
any
of
that.
What
we're
here
for
is
transparency,
asking
questions
to
the
people
of
Alberta.
K
K
M
K
No
problem
at
all
no
problem
at
all
so
Minister
now
I'm
going
to
look
at
page
132
of
the
government
estimates.
The
General
Revenue
fund,
specifically
government
facilities,
preservation
line
3.3
for
2020
to
2023,
and
the
forecast
was
9.6
million,
and
this
year
you
have
25
million.
Could
you
please
give
us
some
more
detail
on
the
increase
to
this
line?
Item?
I
Great,
thank
you
very
much
member
for
that
question.
So
the
government-owned
facilities
preservation,
the
9.6
million
dollar
increase
from
the
2022-23
budget
to
forecast,
is
due
to
funds
being
moved
from
Capital
grants
to
operating
expense
to
align
with
expenditure
reporting,
so
the
total
expense
is
unchanged.
There's
also
a
15.4
million
dollar
increase
from
2022
to
2023
forecasts
to
the
estimate
is
primarily
due
to
additional
funding
allocated
for
government
facilities,
maintenance
projects
and
then
just
just
to
summarize.
I
The
change
represents
a
shift
of
approximately
30
million
dollars
per
year
from
the
capital
plan
to
the
operating
expense
budget.
This
change
establishes
Baseline
funding
of
25
million
dollars
for
CMR
or
Capital
maintenance
and
renewal
and
5
million
for
accommodations
under
operating
expense
to
continue
delivering
on
projects
that
are
not
recorded
as
capital
as
they
have
been
budgeted
in
the
past.
So
it's
more
of
an
accounting
change
and
and
where
that's
represented.
Okay,.
K
Yeah,
so
you
talked
in
your
opening
about
12
government
facility
projects,
one
of
them
being
the
Red
Deer
Justice
Center.
Could
you
tell
us
what
are
the
other
11
government
facility
projects
that
are
currently
part
of
the
plan
for
this
year's
estimates.
I
I
A
I
We
have
the
Community
Corrections
security
assessment
planning-
that's
two
million
dollars
over
two
years:
Correctional
Facilities
planning
the
capital
plan,
provides
funding
for
3.5
million
over
three
years.
The
court
of
Queens
bench
and
Provincial
Courthouse
signage
planning.
The
capital
plan
provides
funding
for
200
000
in
2023.24
the
Grand
Prairie
Courthouse
expansion,
new
building
planning.
This
project
includes
funds
to
determine
options
for
expansion
of
the
Grand
Prairie
Courthouse
750
000.
In
this
fiscal
year,
the
office
of
the
chief
medical
examiner
expansion,
new
build
planning
in
Edmonton.
I
The
capital
plan
provides
funding
for
500
000
for
this
project.
The
Red
Deer
Justice
Center
additional
courtrooms
planning.
The
capital
prevention,
provides
funding
for
200
000
in
this
fiscal
year.
The
Reynolds
Alberta
museum,
the
storage
Warehouse
in
wetaskin.
There's
some
planning
Capital
plan
provides
funding
of
one
million
dollars
in
this
fiscal
year.
Infrastructure
will
work
with
culture
to
deliver.
This
project
increase
funding
for
Approved
government
facility
projects,
the
Edmonton
Law
Courts
planning.
This
project
includes
a
planning
and
functional
programming
to
support
the
Redevelopment
of
the
new
facility
for
the
Edmonton
Law
Courts.
I
The
capital
plan
provides
additional
funding
of
2.5
million
dollars
in
this
fiscal
year
for
a
total
of
3.2
million.
The
Sherwood
Park
Courthouse
planning
one
million
dollars
for
a
total
this
fiscal
year
for
a
total
of
1.5
I.
Think
that
there's
some
key
government
facility
projects,
which
I
mentioned
my
opening
speech,
which
is
the
Red
Deer
Justice
Center,
83.4
million
dollars
to
be
completed
this
calendar
year,
14.9
million
dollars
for
the
camera
Nordic
Senate
to
be
completed
in
the
winter
of
2024
9.2
million
for
the
Yellowhead
Youth
Center.
I
Completion
date
cannot
yet
be
determined
actually,
as
of
until
the
project
is
mobilized.
63.5
million
for
the
court
of
appeal
in
Calgary
complete
completion
date,
not
yet
determined,
22.1
million
dollars
for
the
office
of
the
chief
medical
examiner
in
Calgary,
and
that
one
is
ongoing
as
well.
Hopefully
that
answers.
K
I
So
a
great
great
question
I
appreciate
that
so
the
ministry
of
infrastructure
Works
in
collaboration
with
its
partner,
Ministries,
Justice,
For,
Those,
Courthouse
projects,
often
culture
for
some
of
those
museums
or
other
government
owned
facilities.
Healthcare
School
schools
are
with
education.
A
lot
of
that
prioritization
for
Capital
maintenance
and
renewal
is
prioritized
by
the
stakeholder
through
the
ministry
and
then
directed
to
the
ministry
of
infrastructure.
I
This
is
there's
ongoing
program
management.
With
that,
do
you
have
additional
comments
and
I
will
I
would
ask
my
ADM
for
properties
to
also
comment
on
on
the
prioritization.
L
Part,
thank
you
Minister.
Yes,
so
in
terms
of
CMR
projects,
we
do
rank
them.
We
do
have
a
ranking
system,
as
the
minister
did
indicate.
We
do
get
input
from
other
Ministries
and
we
do
rank
them.
We
have
to
make
sure
that
everything
is
being
done:
the
stewardship
of
public
funds,
but
also
in
the
matter
of
public
safety.
We
have
to
make
sure
that
the
buildings
are
kept
up
to
certain
building
codes
and
as
aging
buildings,
our
average
age
of
our
building
is
over
40
years.
L
K
Emergency
so
then,
from
there,
my
from
my
understanding,
then
there's
also
a
process
by
which
you
figure
out
how
you're
gonna
dispossess
yourself
of
a
government
asset.
So
my
concern
is
how
do
you
go
about
that
and
which
are
the
government
assets
that
you're
planning
on
dispossessing
and
based
on
the
estimates
of
this
particular
year?.
I
Thank
you
great
question
from
the
members.
So
overall
we
do
have
a
process
where
each
year
we
evaluate
the
the
age
stage,
maintenance
requirements
for
each
building
of
which,
as
stated
by
ADM
and
somewhere
in
the
neighborhood,
between
1400
and
1500,
then
if
it's
determined
through
the
department
that
there
is
a
question
about
whether
it
should
be
modernized,
more
main
installers
funded
for
it
or
dispossessed,
then
we
go
to
the
member
Ministries
to
see
if
they
have
any
continued
need
of
that
space
and
then
so
there
is
a
process.
I
Thank
you
so
the
program
or
process
that
goes
the
government
does
sell
Surplus
assets
when
they
are
no
longer
required
by
any
government
program.
The
disposal
of
surplus
properties
reduces
operating
costs
and
increases
cash
proceeds
for
the
government,
so
the
government
is
centralizing,
Surplus
property
sales
to
streamline
and
standardize
Surplus
property
sales
processes.
I
It
provides
Clarity
over
roles
and
responsibilities
for
the
sale.
It
seeks
to
reduce
administrative
processes
and
red
tape,
accelerates
due
diligence
and
shortens
the
timeline
it
takes
for
properties
to
move
to
sale.
It
also
leverages
infrastructure's
expertise
in
real
estate,
Asset
Management
land
planning,
Technical
Services.
I
K
So.
There
needs
to
be
some
kind
of
collaboration
between
non-profit
societies
and
the
government
working
together.
So
if
you
don't
mind,
could
you
please
elaborate
why
this
decision
was
made
and
why
you
decided
to
move
towards
getting
fair
market
value
on
these
projects,
as
opposed
to
working
with
non-profit
organizations
to
help
them
with
their
mandates?.
I
Appreciate
the
question:
thank
you
very
much.
Member
I
would
like
to
clarify
that
we
are
seeking
to
achieve
both
outcomes
that
we
do
have
a
fairly
robust
policy
for
non-government
users
in
that.
So,
while
we
felt
there
was
a
responsibility
to
the
taxpayer
to
manage
Surplus
properties
in
a
prudent
way,
we
also
have
a
process
for
those
non-government
users
which
I.
If
you
don't
mind,
I'd
like
to
just
read
the
messaging
on
on
that.
So
to
help
level
the
playing
field
for
nonprofits
Alberta's
government
has
moved
to
an
equitable
model
for
organizations
leasing.
I
Government
space
previously
non-profits
could
have
paid
different
rates
for
similar
spaces.
So
we
tried
to
make
that
even
and
consistent
across
the
board,
whether
they
were
in
culture
or
in
other
under
other
Ministries.
This
poly
helps
manage
the
province's
building
in
a
cost-effective
way,
ensuring
the
best
use
of
taxpayer
money
while
providing
certainty
and
fairness
for
organizations
leasing,
government
space
and
a
lot
of
those
would
also
receive
funding
from
a
government.
K
Through
the
chair,
obviously
I'm
just
trying
to
get
to
the
bottom
of
that
that
particular
question
right,
like
I,
mean
you're
trying
to
level
the
playing
field.
Could
you
give
me
examples
of
why
you
would
need
to
level
the
playing
field
with
with
some
of
those
non-profit
organizations?
K
Sure
I
mean
like,
and
it's
very
clear
like
that,
especially
those
non-profit
organizations
that
deal
with
arts
and
culture.
There's
they
don't
get
a
lot
of
funding
right,
and
so
can
you
give
me
an
example
of
a
non-profit
organization
that
would
have
a
lot
more
funding
that
they
would
so
that
you
would
have
to
level
the
playing
field
for
for
that
particular
process.
I
So
food
banks
would
be
one
a
direct
answer
paying
for
their
sites.
Some
were
paying
nothing
and
some
were
paying
something
so
trying
to
make
it
more
equal,
no
matter
where,
in
the
province
they
were
okay.
K
I
Set
it
set
it
at
a
low
average
level,
not
a
high
average
level,
so
we
are
seeking
to
to
work
with
them
in
that
we've
also
had
a
number
of
as
an
outcome
of
the
pandemic,
a
number
of
visitor
tourist
sites.
A
lot
of
those
were
closed
because
of
the
pandemic
and
traveled
from
other
provinces.
Other
jurisdictions
was
significantly
reduced,
so
the
cost
of
Staffing
them
over
that
that
period
of
time
didn't
make
any
sense.
I
Now
the
the
funding
for
tourism
Alberta
has
changed,
and
some
of
those
buildings
have
been
determined
as
Surplus,
because
the
tourism
industry
hasn't
recovered
in
the
same
way,
even
if
overall
numbers
have
have
recovered,
but
municipalities
have
approached
the
government
to
either
lease
or
purchase
those
buildings,
because
those
municipalities
see
a
benefit
from
having
that
there,
so
our
department
has
worked
to
work
with
them,
either
for
a
short-term
lease
until
such
time
as
they
could
put
an
offer
to
purchase
or
provide
time
for
them
to
lease
until
they
can
have
a
business
plan
for
how
they
could
fund
that
going
forward.
I
K
You
know,
and
I'm
and
I'm
very
interested
in
this,
because
I'm
wondering
if
nonprofits
ask
for
this,
like
I
mean
from
my
perspective,
I
heard
from
a
number
of
non-profits
that
were
pretty
upset
about
when
this
government
decision
was
made.
I
know
it
wasn't
made,
while
you
were
minister
but
are,
is
there
any
opportunity
you
would
give
to
for
to
consult
with
non-profits
once
again
on
this
particular
issue?.
I
It
would
be
difficult
to
consult
on
legislations,
that's
already
passed
because
it
was
passed
in
2021,
so
the
model
is
for
cost
recovery
only,
and
that
was
a
responsibility
through
the
the
fiscal
planning
when
we
were
first
elected
to
make
sure
that
we
were
managing
our
properties
well,
but
we
do
have
long
lead
times
and
we
do
continue
to
consult
one.
I
One
additional
example
would
be
our
our
work
with
the
Harcourt
house,
some
of
that
cultural
and
artistic
Community,
as
you
have
mentioned
here
in
Edmonton,
where
they
have
been
going
through
this
process
and
we've
been
working
with
them
for
over
approximately
a
year
or
even
longer,
and
we
have
extended
their
lease
at
very
reasonable
rates
to
allow
them
to
facilitate
their
offer
to
purchase
the
property
and
we
are
working
with
them
to
accommodate
them
and
help
them
achieve
their
end,
which
would
be
to
have
that
that
the
ownership
of
that
property.
K
I
K
Appreciate
that
Minister
I
appreciate
it
so
in
in
conversation
during
previous
estimates
with
your
predecessor,
I
was
trying
to
get
a
better
understanding
about
how
your
government
actually
prioritizes
infrastructure
builds
and
from
what
I
understood
by
the
previous
Minister
and
Mr
panda
is
that,
at
the
end
of
the
day,
everything
has
to
go
through
treasury
board
and
finance
right,
so
I'm,
hoping
that
you
could
shed
a
little
bit
of
light
on
exactly
what
that
process
looks
like
how
are
other
Ministries
consulted,
how
our
stakeholders
consulted
in
order
to
prioritize
these
infrastructure
bills.
Sure.
I
Great
question
appreciate
the
the
member
going
this
direction
so
early
on
after
the
election
2019,
our
government
changed
where
the
funding
for
infrastructure
projects
resided
previously
it
had
resided
in
infrastructure
and
our
government
moved
that
to
the
relevant
Ministries.
So
School
building
infrastructure
went
to
education,
Hospital
building
infrastructure
went
to
Health
and
Justice
culture.
I
Other
Ministries
received
that
funding,
so
the
overall
budget
of
infrastructure
itself
and
capital
went
went
down
significantly
to
basically
a
CMR
Property
Management
portfolio,
so
and
and
in
that
there
was
an
effort
to
shift
it
to
those
very
stakeholders
and
and
we'll
use
education
as
an
example.
I
So
each
of
the
63
School
divisions
around
the
province
would
annually
have
requirements
to
assess
their
Capital
project
needs,
as
well
as
their
functional
needs
and
so
on
and
so
forth,
and
those
school
boards
would
individually
prioritize
their
Capital
requests
and
requirements
and
present
those
to
the
minister
of
Education.
In
this
case
the
minister
of
Education.
There
then
would
go
through
those
Capital
requests
from
all
63
and
they
would
be
ranked
from
the
individual
School
Division.
D
I
The
minister
would
have
to
then
prioritize
him
in
the
aggregate
of
all
of
those
63
one
with
the
other.
Some
of
that
is
based
on
the
urgency
and
priority
of
of
the
capital
request.
I'm
sure
you
can
imagine
that
when
I
heard,
when
we
were
first
elected
I,
heard
some
stories
where
schools
actually
had
every
time
it
rained,
they
were
leaking
in
the
classrooms.
I
That
was,
that
would
have
been
deemed
from
the
Capital
Property
Management
side
as
a
much
more
urgent
high
priority
than
perhaps
an
expansion
to
an
existing
building
where
there
were
no
physical
deformities
in
the
building.
I
At
that
point,
the
ministry
would
put
that
forward
to
treasury
board
where
the
final
decision
is
made
on
the
capital
request,
whether
not
often
on
a
particular
project
but
on
the
overall
spend
and-
and
there
was
also
at
that
time-
introduced
the
the
planning
over
three
years
to
say.
It
may
not
be
fitting
in
the
capital
funding
at
this
particular
fiscal
year,
but
it
would
be
placed
in
the
outlying
years
to
show
that
the
indication
was
there
to
do
that.
Work.
K
I
Yes,
that
that
is
correct,
so
and
then
there's
also
which
sorry
which
act
is
this.
Is
this
the.
I
So
to
I'm
just
clarifying
to
to
tie
it
back
to
an
act
we
have
in
2021,
we
passed
the
infrastructure,
accountability,
Act
that
outlines
this
process
and
if
you
don't
mind,
I'll
just
read
the
six
criteria
for
how
the
government
must
consider
when
they're
evaluating
a
capital
planning
submission,
which
is
what
you're
asking
about.
So
the
six
items
are
address
the
health
safety
and
compliance
needs.
I
So
if
there
is
something
out
of
Code
Compliance
or
if
there
was
a
safety
need
like
like
rain
water
coming
through
the
roof
or
a
health
need,
for
instance,
if
there
was
something
like
mold
or
some
other
materials
problem
align
with
government
priorities
and
strategies,
that's
where
the
ministry
itself
would
have
to
prioritize
amongst
different
School
divisions,
Foster
economic
activity
and
create
jobs,
improve
program,
delivery
and
services,
consider
life
cycle
costs
and
whether
it
will
generate
a
return
on
investment
and
enhance
the
resiliency
of
communities.
I
Not
rarely
how,
however,
I
will
provide
a
caveat
to
that
if
it
was
put
forward
the
expertise
of
infrastructure
on
how
to
build
and
how
to
meet
the
existing
codes.
May
influence
the
overall
cost
of
that
and
would
provide
feedback
at
the
planning
stage.
So
if,
if
I'm
making
sense
slightly
a
slight
caveat
to
that
overall,
yes,
you're,
correct,
but
infrastructure
has
some
building
expertise
which
could
influence,
of
course,
how
that.
K
Would
happen
and
I'm
so
glad
that
you
went
there?
Yes,
because
that
goes
to
my
next
line
of
questioning,
which
of
course,
under
the
previous
minister,
there
was
an
openness
and
there
was
even
an
announcement
with
I
believe
it
was
nine
high
schools,
if
I'm
not
mistaken,
to
actually
use
the
the
P3
model
to
actually
get
these
schools
built.
K
When
the
new
premier
stepped
up.
There
was
a
decision
to
abandon
this
model,
particularly
for
schools,
I'm,
hoping
that
you
can
elaborate
on.
Why
exactly
that
decision
was
made,
of
course,
I'm
in
I'm,
in
complete
favor
of
that
from,
for
my
own
reasons,
not
just
political
but
economic
as
well.
So
if
you
could
highlight
how
that
decision
was
made,
why
it
was
made
why
you
decided
to
abandon
the.
I
Thank
you
and
I
will
provide
clarification.
We
haven't
abandoned
it.
We
have
brought
a
further
lens
to
it
and
as
I
I
I
come
from
a
long
period
of
construction
background
that
was
my
my
industry
before
coming
into
elected
office,
where
my
expertise
has
been
in
in
working
on
many
of
those
schools.
What
we
have
done
with
p3s
is:
we've
removed
the
emphasis
on
bundling,
which
impacts
schools,
in
particular
the
P3
model.
The
private
public
partnership
Model
establishes
A
Baseline
of
about
a
hundred
million
dollars
for
that.
I
That
can
still
be
the
best
value
for
dollar,
but
we
added
the
consideration
of
geographical
footprint
to
that.
In
fact,
since
I
was
named,
minister
of
infrastructure,
we
did
have
a
bundle
come
forward
as
a
P3
in
November
of
2022,
which
had
eight
schools,
eight
schools
in
it,
ranging
from
north
of
Edmonton
to
south
of
Lethbridge
that
geographical
footprint
as
a
consideration,
while
the
value
for
money
was
there
extremely
limited,
the
number
of
general
contractors
and
subcontractors
able
to
bid
on
that.
I
So
we
moved
away
from
that
and
we
combined
three
schools
in
Calgary
under
one
bid
package
for
the
best
value
for
dollar,
where
we
could
still
maximize
that
volume
purchasing.
We
left
two
schools
in
Edmonton
together,
but
the
other
three
schools
that
were
in
that
package.
We
allowed
a
single
contract
because
we,
like
I,
said
we
added
that
consideration
for
geographical
footprint.
I
So
if
there
is
a
bundle
of
say
five
schools
which
exceeded
the
threshold
of
100
million
dollars
and
they
were
in
a
geographical
footprint
surrounding
in
and
surrounding
Edmonton,
in
a
way
that
it
made
sense
not
only
fiscally
but
for
design
and
for
that
Geographic
consideration.
We
may
well
still
proceed
with
that.
But
if
that
Geographic
footprint
ranged
over
our
massive
province
in
too
large
of
fashion,
we
felt
the
the
return
on
investment.
The
value
for
dollar
was
much
more
limited,
so
that
was
an
additional
consideration.
K
So
again
we
see
this
getting
value
for
dollar,
as
opposed
to
I
would
say,
quality
outcome
at
the
end
of
a
particular
project
that
needs
to
be
considered
right.
So,
for
example,
here
in
the
city
of
Edmonton
I'm
sure
you
must
have
heard
of
it,
but
there
were
horror
stories
with
the
P3
models,
where
administration
of
a
particular
School
people
couldn't
actually
control
the
temperature
within
the
building
right
other
cases
there
was
like
probably
the
project,
the
playground,
landscaping
or
the
landscaping
around
the
school
wasn't
finished.
K
Children
would
have
to
like
tredge
through
areas
of
mud
and
dirt
and
hills,
and
these
kinds
of
things
which
was
completely
unsafe.
So
then
I'm
not
here
to
argue
with
you,
whether
you're
going
to
use
the
P3
model
or
not
use
it.
But
what
my
interest
is
is
how
do
you
intend
to
deal
with
these
specific
issues?
At
the
end
of
the
day,
the
the
staff
of
a
particular
school
should
be
able
to
control
the
thermostat
within
it,
and
children
shouldn't
have
to
be
wearing
their
parkas
inside
of
the
classroom.
I
Yeah,
so
many
of
those
are
are
long
ago,
and
lots
of
lessons
have
been
learned
since
the
time
of
those
deliveries,
there's
been
an
incredible
amount
of
collaboration
between
school
divisions
and
the
ministry
of
infrastructure
and
the
general
contractor
maintenance
providers
for
that
time
frame
between
those
concerns
being
raised
and
then
being
addressed
and
result
has
virtually
gone
down
to
zero
and
over
the
year
of
2022.
In
fact,
any
of
those
concerns
that
have
been
raised
were
dealt
with
in
in
the
required
time
frame,
some
of
them
within
hours
of
being
raised
again.
I
This
is
why
that
additional
consideration
of
geography
was
added
to
the
consideration
of
those
bundling
when
I
worked
on
school
projects
as
a
contractor
when
I
worked
with
school
boards
and
their
decision
making
their
frustration
was,
their
concern
would
be
about
their
particular
school,
but
they
were
dealing
with
a
contract
that
may
have
Incorporated
five,
six,
seven,
eight
other
schools
and
that
communication
that
specificity
lapsed.
Sometimes
so,
that's
again
why
we
can
change
that
consideration
to
add
geography
to
that,
as
well
as
we've
increased
the
services
and
the
response
times
delineating.
I
What
is
an
urgent
matter?
What
is
an
emergency
matter,
and
and
we've
we've
gained
experience
through
those
messages,
so
the
government
of
Alberta
has
gained
experience
with
P3
methods
through
the
Edmonton
Calgary
Ring
Road
design,
build
Finance,
operate
contracts
and
design
build
Finance
maintain
contract
of
Alberta.
Schools
are
procurement
so
that
we
can
address.
K
I
K
I
Exactly
so,
an
increased
consideration
over
the
life
expectancy
of
a
building
and
the
products
used
in
it,
and
this
is
language
that
that
I've
long
used
through
the
industry,
where
we
want
to
consider
best
value
as
opposed
to
low
lowest
costs.
In
fact,
I
had
a
private
member's
bill
that
didn't
quite
make
it
to
the
the
level
of
of
the
floor.
I
This
is
sometimes
difficult
to
convey
and
communicate
with
the
general
public
because
if
they
see
a
bid
for
a
school
at
14
million
dollars
versus
one
at
17
million
dollars
in
the
17
million
dollar
bid
is
chosen
that,
on
the
surface,
could
be
confusing
so
where
we
have
increased
the
evaluation
tools
to
consider
experience
to
consider
products
used
to
consider
the
maintenance
response
in
in
that
evaluation
of
that
bid,
and
this
year
alone,
I
think
we've
seen
two
instances
on
school
procurement,
where
the
low
bid
wasn't
chosen
as
a
bid,
because
it
was
determined
that
the
best
value
and
the
best
result
for
the
School
Division
and
the
school
build
was
not
the
lowest
tender.
I
So
we
are
continuing
to
consult
with
industry
because
that's
obviously
a
fairly
significant
change
from
when
you're
used
to
putting
the
low
bid
and
you
win
to
I
put
the
low
bin
in
and
I
wasn't
awarded
the
contract
so
making
sure
that
we
have
verified
Integrity
of
the
process.
So
it
was
not
influenced
in
any
untoward
manner
which
we
have
done
verified
it's
not
been,
and
we
have
a
very
robust
evaluation
process.
If.
K
K
I
I'm,
just
going
to
ask
ask
my
my
DM
to
answer
that
a
little
more
technically
just
to
make
sure
we
get
reviews.
Thank
you.
M
Yes,
so
particularly
for
schools
and
others,
the
p3s
are
government
assets
and
the
goal
of
the
contracts
is
to
have
a
well-maintained
school
over
the
life
of
the
asset.
So
that's
why
they
are
long-term
contracts,
typically
in
the
30
to
40
year
range
to
ensure
that
it's
built
and
maintained,
and
then
the
contractor
would
potentially
exit
after
that
40
years,
and
we
would
have
a
maintained
building
that
we
could
determine
how
we
we
best
proceed.
Another
example
is
the
Evans
Thomas
Wastewater
and
Water
Treatment
Center,
that
was
built
in
Canada.
M
It
is
our
asset,
but
it's
being
run
by
experts
like
epcor
to
ensure
that
we
get
the
best
and
safety
safest
water
in
that
area.
So
it
is
the
longitudinal
view
of
ensuring
our
assets
are
well
maintained.
K
Okay,
so
if
you
don't
mind,
then
so
for
for
particularly
schools,
how
long
does
the
contractor
then
have
and
a
lot
of
the
the
contracts
that
have
been
made
with
the
government
and
for
particularly
schools?
How
long
does
the
contractor
have
to
maintain
those
projects?
Is
it
30,
40
and
how
many
years
are
we
talking
about.
I
K
M
I
And
the
only
change
in
that
contract
is
that
over
time
those
Lessons
Learned,
as
you
were,
pointing
out,
have
been
adopted
to
the
new
contracts
to
make
sure
that
Clarity
is
provided
for
maintenance
issues
that
we
learned
and
raised
from
earlier.
I
Iterations
of
those
contracts
were
adopted
into
the
new
one,
so
we
continue
to
evaluate
those
contracts
and
make
sure
that
they
continue
to
provide
the
best
value
and
the
best
outcomes
for
the
school
divisions
involved
in
them
and
in
fact,
infrastructure
was
awarded
in
2022
a
reward
of
Excellence
for
the
P3
School
delivery.
That
was
most
recently
done
in
Alberta,
and
this
was
award
that
was
handed
out
in
New
York.
So
it's
not
just
a
an
Alberta
awarding
itself.
It
was
a
international
award
for
how
that
project
went.
I
So
we
have
shown
that
we
can
deliver
those
in
a
very
appropriate
and
excellent
manner.
K
I
P3
models
again
are
often
evaluated.
One
of
the
fiscal
thresholds
is
that
100
million
dollar
mark,
which
makes
it
very
effective
for
oftentimes
for
Bridges
or
large
Highway
sections
like
the
Ring
Road
around
Calgary
I,
think
some
of
those
have
been
developed
and
maintained.
In
that
way
we
have
a
list
here
of
projects
which
I'll
just
read
off
to
you.
I
If
you
don't
mind
the
southeast
Anthony
hende,
that
was
a
497
million
dollar
P3
project,
Northeast,
Stoney,
Trail,
Northwest,
Anthony,
hende,
again,
Stony,
Trail
and
Anna,
fanday
and
I,
don't
know
the
acronym
for
this
ASAP
one.
Also.
We
have
three
School
bundles
that
were
there,
the
Evan
Thomas
water,
wastewater
treatment,
Southwest,
Stony,
Trail
and
another
P3
bundle.
So
typically,
those
are
the
large
projects
that
would
hit
that
threshold
for.
K
Evaluation
I'm
just
going
over
my
notes
and
I
realized
that
there
was
something
that
I
needed
to
to
ask
regarding
going
back
to
the
non-profits
and
the
use
of
government
assets.
Would
it
be
possible
to
get
a
breakdown
of
how
many
non-uh
profit
organizations
currently
lease
space
from
Alberta.
A
K
We
could
provide
that
at
some
point
if
you'd
like
and
then,
if
you
don't
mind
when
you
do
provide
the
response
to
that,
is
that
number
expected
to
change
over
the
coming
years.
L
That
so
in
terms
of
the
policy
you
know,
depending
on
the
organization,
we
continue
to
work
with
them.
As
you
know,
leases
expire
as
the
policy
came
in,
we
didn't
instantly.
Do
it
as
leases
expired.
We
look
for
it
as
a
deputy
Minister
noted.
This
is
on
a
cost
for
cover
list
work
closely
with
our
stakeholders
and
in
some
cases
some
of
the
government
departments
do
provide
grant
funding,
especially
in
the
social
services.
I
I
will
just
provide
a
little
bit
further
information
for
the
member.
If
he's
willing,
we
have
a
partial
list
here
and
it
has
on
it.
82
non-profits
that
have
different
least
expiry
dates.
I
K
I
There
there's
nothing
of
that
sort.
We
want
to
make
sure
that
our
engagements
are
with
them
in
the
healthiest
form.
That
includes
fiscal
health,
and
we
would
work
with
the
partner
Ministries
to
make
sure
that
we're
providing
for
their
needs
to
the
best.
K
Towards
the
government
getting
fair
market
value
on
on
these
government
assets,
so
my
question
would
be.
I
Another
great
question,
thank
you
so
again,
just
to
clarify
it
is
on
cost
recover,
not
not
necessarily
market
value
but
cost
recovery,
so
that
goes
back
to
internally,
making
sure
that
we
are
managing
our
assets
well,
so
that
they
don't
end
up
in
a
state
of
disrepair.
I
Nor
do
we
modernize
into
the
state
where
the
cost
recovery
prices
go
up
beyond
what
a
non-profit
could
afford
to
pay
for,
but
it
also
has
put
a
responsibility
back
on
those
member
Ministries
to
make
sure
that
they
they
work
in
conjunction
with
those
non-profits
in
a
way
that
recognizes
their
their
cost
need
for
an
ongoing
basis
and
to
make
sure
that
they're
fiscally
sound
as
they
move
forward.
So
it's
been
a
long
and
robust
process.
I
Initially,
yes,
I
I
do
remember
same
as
you
hearing
from
many
nonprofits
I
was
a
bit
of
a
a
challenging
transition
through
that
we've
had
many
Ministries
reach
out
through
infrastructure
to
continue
to
work
with
those
non-profits
to
find
Beneful
a
mutually
Beneful
resolution,
and
to
my
understanding,
including
har
Courthouse,
we
continued
on
that
venture
to
make
sure
that
the
best
outcome
would
be
in
their
words
from
our
courthouses
that
they
purchase
and
own
that
property
and
we're
working
with
him
to
to
transition
into
time.
I
So
the
my
staff
did
find
here.
165
is
the
total
number
of
ngu
leases
that
we
have?
Okay.
Thank
you
very.
K
Much
for
providing
that
so
then
I
would
like
to
go
to
so
when
you're,
when
dealing
with
a
government
asset
and
this
this
possession
of
it.
So
what
are
the
key
metrics
that
that
you
determine
in
order
to
make
that
decision.
I
L
K
So
I'm
just
wondering
what
are
the
the
key
metrics
that
you
use
to
actually
analyze
whether
you're
going
to
be
dispossessing
yourself
of
a
government
asset
sure.
So
what.
L
We
would
do
is
we
would
look
to
a
part
in
our
ministry
and
we're
looking,
of
course,
in
the
best
interests
of
government,
so
we
would
be
working
with
a
partner
Ministry
on
a
piece
of
land
or
a
building
and
we've
did
and
if
it's
declared
Surplus,
it
would
have
first,
of
course
be
offered
to
municipality
at
fair
market
value,
as
as
Minister
said,
and
then
would
be
up
for
public
sale.
But
we
do
sell
quite
a
few
properties.
We
had
so
far
this
year,
33.5
million
dollars
in
sales.
L
We
have
six
properties
pending
at
45.8
million
and
we
have
13
listings
of
26.7,
but
we
do
make
sure
that
we
consult
with
who
we
need
to.
So,
as
the
minister
said,
as
an
example
in
hardcore
house,
we
would
look
to
sell
that
to
municipality
if
they
want
it.
Of
course,
we'd
start
with
hardcore
health
and
then
we'll
go
to
public
ten
minutes.
I
So,
just
if
you
don't
mind
member
through
the
chair,
so
there
is
there's
quite
a
process
through
that
infrastructure
circulates
potential
Surplus
properties
to
all
government
departments
to
confirm
if
there
is
a
program
need
to
keep
that
if
there
is
no
program
need
the
property
is
declared
Surplus
by
the
minister
of
infrastructure
and
first
offered
it
as
a
direct
sale
at
market
value
to
the
local
municipality
for
those
for
their
public
purposes.
If
the
municipality
declines,
the
property
is
listed
with
a
realtor
on
the
multiple
listing
service.
I
D
I
Or
1600
properties,
so
it's
it.
This
is
a
very,
very
small
number,
the
30.1
million
dollars
for
those
sales
and
just
example.
There
was
a
transportation
utility
Corridor
line
line,
Sorry
Transportation
utility
Corridor
land
that
was
sold
land
along
allergies,
road
to
the
city
of
Edmonton,
for
the
LRT
operations
and
maintenance
facility.
There
were
some
lieutenant
governor,
Lotz
and
Glenora
that
were
sold
just
empty
lots
and
a
single
men's
hostel
that
was
sold,
that's
an
NGO,
but
they
purchased
it
for
their
usage.
So
thank.
K
You
very
much
Minister
I
appreciate
that
next
I'd
like
to
as
as
I'm
sure
you
you
met
with
them
as
well.
The
the
Canadian
construction,
Association
and
Yemen,
the
construction
Association
paid
us
a
visit
not
too
long
ago,
and
while
in
conversation
with
them,
we
had
a.
It
was
a
really
great
conversation
by
the
way.
K
K
My
line
of
questioning
now
has
to
do
with
non-p3s
and
and
and
actually
integrated,
project,
design
and
delivery.
So
many
of
the
people
that
I've
consulted
stakeholders
that
I've
consulted
with
having
to
do
with
this
keep
talking
about
the
the
amazing
process
that
integrated
project
design
and
delivery
is
more.
People
are
involved
at
the
base
in
an
initial
decision
making,
there
is
a
lot
of
caught
in
economically.
It
makes
more
sense,
I'm
wondering
if
your
government,
what
is
the
approach
that
they
plan
on
taking
for
infrastructure
bills
that
are
non-p3s.
E
I
I
just
wanted
to
make
sure
I
was
getting
all
of
these.
The
questions
that
you
threw.
We
have
been
doing
a
lot
of
work
through
my
Ministry
on
our
procurement
practices
and
we
seek
to
continue
input
from
our
stakeholders,
particularly
in
the
construction
industry,
as
would
be
appropriate
and
we've
to
that
end.
We've
set
up,
what's
called
an
I.
What
is
that
acronym.
I
Really
liaison
Council
and
subcommittee
where
we
continue
to
to
work
with
them,
the
the
ipd,
the
integrated
project,
delivery,
one
is
that
is
one
that
we've
considered
has
pros
and
cons
as
all
of
all
of
these
contracts
and
procurement
methods
do
where
we've
we've
gone
with
the
construction
industry.
To
this
point
is
the
quality
based
selection
QBs,
it
is
more
at
this
time
it's
more
transparent
and
more
has
more
accountability.
The
integrated
project
delivery
has
different
hurdles
where.
K
K
I
At
this
point
in
time,
we
have
not
proceeded
with
that
approach.
What
we
have
done
to
to
work
with
industry,
like
I
said,
is:
go
to
that
quality
based
selection,
where
we
allow
for
that
expertise
to
rise
to
the
top
at
the
beginning,
but
we
still
have
that
cost
certainty
for
our
stakeholders
and
user
groups
at
the
beginning
of
the
project.
Okay,.
I
Challenges
with
procuring
an
ipd
contract
include
abiding
by
open
and
transparent
procurement
practices,
which
is
that
we
don't
know
the
the
number
that
we're
working
for
at
the
beginning,
which,
as
a
representative
of
the
taxpayer,
that's
difficult
because
again
as
a
as
a
Cost
Plus
Style,
it's
more
difficult
to
determine
that
complying
with
trade
agreements
and
following
the
fiscal,
fiscal,
Financial
Administration
act.
Those
are
some
of
those.
So
it's
more
on
the
fiscal
side
that
we
don't
have
that
certainty
at
the
beginning,
even
though
it
is
a
much
more
collaborative
process.
Okay,.
A
I
Yeah
so
I'm
going
to
ask
gasan
who's
in
my
form
to
come
to
the
mic,
he's
a
technical
support,
the
assistant
Deputy
minister
of
capital
projects-
and
he
has
a
significant
expertise
in
terms
of
the
legal
contractual
obligations
for
that.
So
thanks.
N
Yourself
absolutely
thank
you,
assistant,
Deputy
Minister,
for
capital
projects
delivery.
So
we
do
examine
all
sorts
of
delivery
models.
The
ones
we
adopt
at
this
point
in
time
are
design
bit
build
design,
build
construction
management
and
recently
we've
been
exploring
QBs,
which
is
qualification
based
delivery.
With
regards
to
ipd.
N
Got
design
bit
build
design,
build
construction
management
and
as
a
method
of
selection,
a
qualification
based
selection
method
has
been
used
or
is
being
used
piloted
in
the
past,
and
we
are
using
it
right
now
with
the
selection
of
the
Prime
consultant
at
Red
Deer
hospital.
Now,
with
regards
to
the
rules
we
need
to
apply,
the
selection
method
is
always
risk
based.
You
assess
the
entire
risk
of
the
of
the
selection
method
itself,
depending
on
a
lot
of
parameters,
including
the
length
of
time.
N
You
have
the
total
budget,
the
budget
certainty
Etc
it
the
the
selection
method.
We
have
a
matrix
that
allows
us
to
assess
the
products
itself
and
it
will
guide
us
through
which
which
will
get
us
to
which
specific
methodology
needs
to
be
used
with
regards
to
ipd,
specifically,
the
biggest
hurdle
is
the
following:
we
have
to
abide
by
FAA,
which
is
the
financial
accountability
Act,
the
the
trade
agreements
there
are
I,
think
eight
or
so
we've
got
also
the
treasury
board
directives.
N
Because
of
two
things
because
of
the
certainty
level,
Associated,
specifically
with
cost,
so
we
have
to
actually
secure
so
we're
not
allowed,
for
example,
to
get
go
into
a
contract
with
enter
any
contract
for
which
the
total
cost
is
not
known
ahead
of
time,
so
Cost
Plus
in
general.
Any
any
methodology
that
leads
to
a
Cost
Plus
situation
will
will
likely
be
avoided
with
ipd.
Let
me
just
make
some
comments.
If
you
don't
mind
about
ipd,
it
is.
N
It
is
very
much
as
the
minister
mentioned,
it
is
very
much
a
you
know,
light
at
industry,
but
if
you
look
at
it
from
a
perspective
of
FAA
rules
and
TD
directives,
it
has
an
unlimited
liability
towards
the
government
towards
the
province.
N
Typically,
what
happens
when
an
ipd
is
that
there's
an
agreement
that
the
certain
total
value
of
of
project
right
in
which
the
costs
and
the
the
profits
and
the
losses
are
shared
amongst
the
the
the
the
proponents,
the
that
allows,
for
you
know,
change,
orders
to
happen
and
and
errors
and
Emissions.
So
one
of
the
biggest
issues
with
it,
for
example,
is
that
errors
and
Emissions
by
a
consultant
are
going
to
be
covered
by
the
tri-party
that
the
three
parties
that
are
involved,
which
is
from
an
accountability
perspective.
N
That
is,
that
is
not
something
that
we
advocate
for
the
the
more
important
part
of
it
is,
is
the
certainty
with
regards
to
both
cost
and
and
timelines
an
ipd,
although
it
is
it,
it
is
collaborative
from
that
perspective.
Ultimately
speaking,
if
the
entire
project
falls
into
a
situation
whereby
a
liability
should
materialize,
the
three
parties
will
either
have
to
either
shut
down
the
project
and
call
it
a
day
or
they
have
to
come
back
to
government
to
the
province
and
ask
for
that
differential.
N
So
from
that
perspective,
the
the
allocation
of
risk
is
not
delineated
enough
to
abide
by
the
FAA
Rules
by
the
TD
directives
and
by
trade
agreements.
K
Perfect,
thank
you
very
much.
I
appreciate
your
your
specialty
in
so
then,
and
I
can
and
again
this
goes
back
to
I.
Guess
the
The
General
tendency
in
my
line
of
questioning
is
that
yes,
I
understand
that.
There's
the
bottom
line
that
you
got
to
deal
with.
Obviously
we
got
legislation
that
Financial
accountability,
Act,
but
I
would
say
that
the
the
pros
of
integrated
project,
design
and
delivery
were
stakeholders.
K
The
community
people
feel
like
the
project
belongs
to
the
entire
Community
to
them
is
something
that
needs
to
be
assessed
as
well,
because
at
the
end
of
the
day,
you're
providing
a
government
asset
and
the
community
doesn't
feel
like
it's
really
theirs
right.
So
those
are
the.
Those
are
the
two
things
that
we're
trying
to
balance
here.
K
I
would
like
to
get
on
the
record,
though,
then.
What
are
the
pros
of
the
integrated
project,
design
and
delivery?
Sure.
I
Again
great
conversation
I
really
appreciate.
Remember
taking
this
direction
this
the
pros
for
the
the
integrated
project
delivery.
Is
that
collaboration,
so
a
more
Tech,
more
technical
definition?
If
you
don't
mind
me
reading
that
to
the
record,
is
the
ipd
requires
that
the
owner,
the
architect
and
general
contractor
enter
into
a
multi-party
contract
for
design
and
construction?
The
pricing
structure
is
Cost
Plus
with
a
Target
price,
so
that
so
the
pros
of
it
is
that
collaborative
nature
which
the
government
would
seek
to
to
do
that.
Let's
work
together,
let's,
let's
get
everybody
involved.
I
The
con
is,
is
that
we
don't
have
I
asked
for
the
pros
Wednesday
yeah.
A
I
Of
the
one
of
the
Avenues
I
I've,
taken
as
since
I've
been
minister
to
address
this
issue
is
like
I
said
we
set
up
the
industry
liaison
committee,
one
specifically
to
talk
about
risk
allocation,
which
this
is
the
basis
of
this
conversation
is
how
do
we
assess
that
risk
and
who
carries
that
for
the
record?
The
reason
why
risk
is
so
important,
because
if
you
carry
the
risk,
then
you
pay
the
bill.
K
I
Course,
where,
if,
if
too
much
risk
is
allocated
to
the
general
contractor
or
contractor,
what
we
see
is
a
very
significant
General
Trend
to
their
increase,
increasing
their
price
of
bid
because
that's
how
they
protect
themselves.
If
you
say
going
in,
we
don't
know
everything,
we
can't
predict
the
future,
but
it
might
cost
a
lot.
What
are
they
going
to
do?
They're
going
to
add
that
into
their
price?
So
we,
if
we
can,
if
we
can
shift
some
of
that
risk
allocation
back
to
the
owner,
which
is
us
as
the
government.
I
K
They
in
the
in
the
procurement
process,
then,
when
you're,
applying
these
different
methodologies
and
whatnot
I'm,
assuming
that
contractors
are
building
into
their
their
estimate,
a
contingency,
obviously.
K
You
made
several
comments
to
the
South
Edmondson
hospital
at
the
in
your
opening
and,
of
course,
you've
identified
certain
issues
with
the
the
project.
K
K
Website
so
from
my
understanding
on
where
you're
listing
the
projects-
it's
not
on
there,
it
was
on
there
and
the
date
was
continually
was
since
you
YouTube
government,
under
Mr,
Panda
and
we've
had
this
discussion.
It's
on
the
record
that
the
date
kept
being
pushed
back
on
the
infrastructure,
government,
government
government
of
Alberta
infrastructure
website,
and
then
now
you
can't
even
find
the
South
Edmonton
hospital
and
I
think
that's
the
question.
I
K
I
Are
committed
to
to
building
it
and
we
are
proceeding
with
that
where
we're
at
with
that
is
that
functional
planning
which,
which
is
the
key
qualify
for
that,
because
before
you
can
build,
you
have
to
know
what
you're
building-
and
this
is
where
some
of
that
challenge,
because
the
ultimate
Authority
for
decision
making
on
what
a
building
is
and
looks
like
is
doesn't
necessarily
rest
with
the
government.
I
In
this
case,
Alberta
Health
Services
as
a
key
stakeholder,
has
a
significant
part
to
play
in
that,
and
we
continue
to
work
with
them
and
with
the
Ministry
of
Health
to
finalize
exactly
what
what
we
are
building
to
answer.
Your
specific
question
of
why
there
has
been
more
progress
made
on
that.
If
you
will
indulge
me,
this
project
was
announced
in
2017
and
added
to
the
capital
plan
and
before
the
business
case
and
planning
for
the
project
was
completed.
I
So
it
was
in
process
and
as
a
comparison,
the
the
former
government,
the
NDP
government,
faced
a
very
similar
situation
with
the
Calgary
Cancer
Center,
where
that
project
was
announced
in
in
2013.
But
construction
didn't
begin
until
after
2017..
So
some
of
that
lies
in
a
transition
of
government
and
some
of
that
lies
in
Dysfunctional
program
and
designing.
So
we.
K
Have
two
parallel
projects.
Similarly,
we
don't
have
a
lot
of
time
here.
So
I
just
want
to
get
these
questions
on
the
record
here.
Of
course,
I'll
I'll
take
this
up
again.
Once
we
we
have
the
opportunity,
but
through
documents
that
were
actually
provided
to
me
by
people
who
are
actually
working
on
this
particular
project.
K
and
it
was
submitted
to
Alberta
Health
to
Alberta,
Health
and
Alberta
infrastructure
says
this
plan
identified
the
number
of
beds
in
the
hospital
and
the
services
that
would
be
provided
on
site.
This
required
the
engagement
of
the
clinicians
and
the
leaders
of
clinical
departments
that
will
be
providing
care
on
the
campus,
as
well
as
the
engagement
of
the
members
of
the
patient
and
family
advisory
Council.
K
So
there
was
already
a
clinical
plan
that
actually
has
been
submitted
to
Alberta
infrastructure
from
my
understanding
right.
So
when
you
say,
when
I
asked
you
one
question
period
about
this
particular
Hospital,
you're
telling
me
that
there
was
no
plan
but
from
what
I'm
hearing
there's
a
clinical
service
plan.
Not
only
that
Minister
there's.
Also
the
a
neighborhood
area
structure
plan
was
also
completed.
B
Good.
Thank
you.
That
concludes
the
first
portion
of
questions
for
the
official
opposition
members.
We
continue
to
have
some
vibration
interference
through
our
audio
system,
I'm,
not
sure
where
the
devices
are
located,
but
we
do
require
all
devices
to
be
on
silent
or
maybe
in
the
best
interests
of
this
meeting
is,
if
you
have
devices
that
are
going
to
vibrate,
to
remove
them
from
the
table
so
that
they
don't
interfere
with
our
audio
projection.
B
G
Thank
you
so
much
chair
through
the
chair
really
appreciate
you
being
here,
minister,
and
with
your
staff,
and
there
was
great
questions
there
asked
earlier
I'm
sure
you'll
probably
get
to
them
in
the
next
block,
with
the
opposition,
but
yeah
I
would
just
say
two
Minister.
It
was
an
honor
serving
with
you
on
Treasury
board,
seeing
your
expertise
in
many
areas,
including,
and
especially
the
industry.
You
come
from
infrastructure
learned
a
lot.
It
was
amazing
and
I
think
something
around
23
billion
dollars
over
three
years
for
the
Strategic
plan.
G
I
should
remember
that
and
I
think
I
do
you're
nodding,
that's
good!
No,
it
was
amazed
Alberta's
future
with
this
great
budget
2023,
with
its
fantastic
Capital
plan,
including
locally
in
my
community
of
Sherwood
Park
and
specialized
Municipality
of
Strathcona
County.
So
I
want
to
begin
with
the
Sherwood
Park
Courthouse
Minister,
very
important
to
my
constituents
running
through
the
history
of
this
Courthouse.
G
Briefly,
it
was
established
under
the
Alberta
Government
in
February
of
1980
as
a
temporary
facility,
and
everyone
would
admit
at
this
point
in
an
inappropriate
facility
in
a
strip
mall
plenty
of
issues
there
with
parking
and
also,
unfortunately,
victims
and
the
alleged
claim
perpetrators
having
to
be
in
the
same
space
together
was
totally
inappropriate
so
anyway,
after
42
years
in
the
strip,
mall
I'm
glad
that
we're
finally
moving
forward
to
replacing
the
Sherwood
Park,
Courthouse
I
would
also
note
the
last
time
the
Alberta
Government
seriously
looked
at
modernizing
or
replacing
this
infrastructure
was
in
2013
approximately
10
years
ago
we
got
close
to
finalizing
a
proposal
under
Alberta
infrastructure
or
whatever
the
ministry's
name
was
at
that
point.
G
But
my
understanding,
speaking
to
the
former
mlas
and
the
people
in
the
legal
Community,
who
have
been
deeply
involved
in
this
issue
for
25
years,
is
that
the
proposal
ballooned
from
something
like
30
million
up
to
90
million
and
that
helped
just
convince
people
at
the
time
to
cancel
the
project
under
a
premier
Redford.
So
anyway,
here
we
are
today
we're
excited
about
this
planning,
the
studies
that
are
allocated
so
Minister.
What
criteria
are
used
to
evaluate
capital
projects
on
page
115
of
the
capital
plan?
G
I
Thank
you
chair.
Thank
you,
member,
for
the
question
appreciate
also
serving
with
you
on
Treasury
board.
So,
as
we
had
stated
earlier,
but
we'll
reiterate
to
answer
this
question.
The
infrastructure
accountability
act
establishes
six
criteria
that
the
government
must
consider
when
evaluating
Capital
planning
submission-
and
in
this
case
the
Sherwood
Park
courthouse.
I
So
we
have
to
address
the
health
safety
and
compliance
needs,
align
them
with
government
priorities
and
strategies
which
this
one
does
Foster
economic
economic
activity
and
create
jobs,
improve
program
delivering
Services,
which
is
a
major
consideration
here,
consider
life
cycle
costs
and
whether
it
will
generate
a
return
investment
and
enhance
the
resiliency
of
communities.
So
this
was
done.
I
These
planning
dollars
will
provide
the
funding
for
the
next
step,
which
include
includes
A
needs
assessment,
so
the
research
will
into
the
the
service
lead
sorry,
the
service
delivery
options
available
and
assess
the
existing
facility,
please,
which,
if
you
say,
is
correct,
which
I
have
all
confidence
that
they
are
that's
in
a
strip
mall.
That
may
not
be
assessed
as
the
best
way
to
meet
that
need,
and
we
continue
to
develop
a
plan
from
there.
So
that's
the
needs
assessment
as
well
as
consultation
with
Justice
and
Judiciary.
I
We,
the
ministry
of
infrastructure,
will
always
consult
with
communities
on
their
projects
and
and
make
sure
that
we
take
those
considerations
into
account
when
we're
developing
all
of
these
steps
along
the
way
so
needs
assessment
is
first
then
Alberta
infrastructure
leads
the
business
case,
development
with
the
ministry
of
Justice
to
make
sure
that
we
combine
their
expertise
and
knowledge
on
this
particular
project
into
the
consideration
of
that
business
case
before
it
just
becomes
a
fiscal
question
for
treasury
board
to
answer
this
means
that
in
this
assessment
we
assess
the
current
facility
status
that
Capital
solution,
Alternatives
the
cost
benefit
analysis
and
the
business
operational
analysis.
I
G
G
These
are
lawyers
from
my
community
who,
for
years
and
years
and
years
have
advocated
for
this
and
and
built
up
the
history
and
helped
inform
me,
as
did
the
former
MLA
Dave
Quest,
so
I
want
that
on
record,
and
so
I
would
also
say
that
my
municipality
in
general
is
very
excited
about
this
and
in
the
2013
and
who
knows
where
this
will
go
over
time,
because
my
understanding
stantec
has
awarded
the
contract
to
come
up
with
the
needs,
assessment
and
or
replacement
design
and
they'll
come
back
in
September
with
information
that
that's
what
I
was
told
from
Justice.
G
Maybe
you
might
not
have
those
details
and
that's:
okay,
okay,
great
so
now,
I
want
to
move
to
talking
about
the
great
news
which
is
the
expansion
of
the
Strathcona
community
hospital.
Again
just
a
briefing
on
this
through
the
chair
on
the
history
of
this
one.
G
So
in
around
2008
2009,
my
community
of
100
000
people
were
promised
a
hospital
and
we
were
so
excited
for
that
and
it
ended
up
being
two
phases
to
this
Hospital
plan
as
of
2010,
and
we
ended
up
getting
phase
one
again
in
2013
for
whatever,
in
various
reasons,
Premier
Redford
canceled
the
project,
it's
the
phase
two,
and
so
here
we
are
today,
but
we're
very
excited.
G
My
argument
has
always
been-
is
a
MLA
for
Sherwood
Park
that
as
a
community
of
a
hundred
thousand
people
with
three
refineries
and
the
industrial
Heartland,
it's
my
understanding.
After
Fort
McMurray
Wood
Buffalo,
my
community,
proportionally
speaking,
pays
the
most
into
provincial
conference
in
terms
of
taxes
generated
again
three
refineries,
plus
the
industrial
Heartland.
G
We
produce,
two-thirds
of
Western
refined,
two-thirds
of
Western
Canada's
oil
and
75
of
all
petrochemicals
in
Canada
are
produced
through
Strathcona
County,
so
very
excited
about
this
expansion
to
see
where
it
goes,
minister,
so
in
budget
2023,
Alberta's
government
is
investing
3.1
billion
over
three
years
in
health,
capital
projects
and
programs.
18
million
is
budgeted
for
further
planning
of
proposed
Health
capital
projects
across
the
province,
including
expansion
of
the
Strathcona
Community
Hospital.
What
are
the
next
steps
for
this
project
now
that
the
funding
has
been
allocated
on
page
113
of
the
capital
plan?
G
It
outlines
one
million
dollars
for
planning
this
project,
while
the
planning
funding
for
this
project
matches
the
funding
for
the
Sherwood
Park
Courthouse.
What
differences
are
there
in
planning
a
hospital
bill
versus
a
courthouse
bill,
for
example,
and
then,
finally,
here
what
outcomes
can
we
expect
from
that
budget
and
planning
process
for
this
project?.
I
Excellent
question
I
appreciate
that
the
member
bringing
this
forward
as
a
comparison
so
that
we
can
more
fully
expand
on
on
the
process
now
the
process
and
its
steps
would
be
very,
very
similar
in
terms
of
needs
assessment
going
to
Clinical
Services
plan,
which
I'll
expound
upon
shortly.
I
The
difference
comes
in
the
fact
that
a
courthouse,
for
instance,
it's
it's
a
very
defined
process.
What
a
courthouse
does
it
has
those
who
would
be
victims?
It
would
have
those
who
would
be
accused
and
going
through
that
process
and
their
requirements
to
be
separate.
It
would
have
the
Judiciary
it
how
it
would
have
legal
and
then
it
would
have
the
the
open
to
the
community
aspects
of
it.
I
It's
it's
very
well
formulated
into
this
type
and
size
of
rooms
and
the
chambers
and
how
it
is
used
and
functioning
as
well
as
limited
into
that.
You
are
not
necessarily
bringing
people
with
medical
emergencies
into
that
situation.
Right
like
it
is
defined
and
known
and
quantifiable,
with
Modern
Health
Care
Facility.
It
becomes
much
more
complex
in
the
sense
that
you
have
to
consider
what
type
of
patients
are
you
considering
specifically
the
needs
of
a
a
child
in
within
a
medical
emergency
for
surgery,
perhaps
or
or
right
after
birth.
I
In
terms
of
the
neonatal
intensive
care
is
a
very
different
program
structure,
building
service
provided
than
ambulatory
care
or
emergency
care,
or
surgical
care
or
Cancer
Care.
The
the
scope
and
breadth
of
Medical
Response
is
incredibly
vast
and
can
differ
even
in
the
sense
that
the
same
service
of
emergency
care
provided
to
a
child
would
be
very,
very
different
than
who
someone
who
is
a
full-grown,
adult
or
a
senior,
and
then
there
is
many
more
nuances
and
complexities
beyond
that.
I
That
is
why
the
planning
steps
are
so
robust
for
health
care
and
and
can
take
considerable
time
so
in
the
next
stages,
for
the
Strathcona
Community
Hospital,
for
instance,
are
the
needs,
assessment
and
clinical
service
plans
to
individual
steps.
Two
individual
processes
that
take
into
consideration
extensive
research
into
patient
demographics,
alternative
Service
delivery
options
and
locations
as
Strathcona
has
a
proximity
that
needs
to
be
considered
to
Edmonton
and
the
services
provided
within
Edmonton
and
assess
that's
the
assessment
of
existing
facilities.
I
So
there
may
be
a
facility
that
is
close
by,
but
it
doesn't
meet
the
needs
evaluated
for
the
the
care
that
wants
to
be
provided.
Consultation
with
local
Physicians
healthcare
workers
and
local
Health
advisory
committees
on
the
health
needs
and
services
that
are
required
in
the
community
can
take
considerable
time
as
they
have
they
often
are,
are
working
either
full-time
or
part-time
in
a
high
demand
situation,
so
their
availability
would
be
limited
and
extend
that
period
of
time.
I
They
don't
just
drop
everything
they're
doing
in
the
emergency
department
to
come
to
a
consultation
meeting
that
that
needs
to
be
considered
and
carefully
considered
implant.
Completing
the
needs
assessment
is
forward
to
the
Ministry
of
Health
at
that
time
for
review,
and
once
that's
approved,
the
needs
assessment
is
sent
to
Alberta
infrastructure.
To
proceed
with
a
business
case.
I
Also
to
be
noted,
is
Alberta
Health
Services
as
a
critical
component.
As
a
key
stakeholder
in
the
management
and
provision
of
those
Health
Care
Services
in
the
planning
and
needs
assessment
on
all
the
way
through
that
process,
in
the
case
of
the
Strathcona
Community
Hospital,
it
needs
assessment,
was
completed
in
2012
again
going
back
to
your
long
advocacy
for
this
project.
However,
it
requires
review
and
and
updating
because
of
that
and
the
demographics
having
changed
in
that
10-year
period.
So,
even
though
there
was
that
work
done,
it
does
need
to
be
refreshed.
I
I
It
leads
to
a
business
case,
development
with
health,
the
Ministry
of
Health
and
Alberta
Health,
Services
assessment
of
current
facility
status,
Capital
solution,
Alternatives
cost
benefit
analysis
and
business
operational
analysis
are
then
considered
review
of
location
and
the
calculation
of
how
to
make
this
economically
viable
to
renovate
whether
it's
to
renovate
upgrade
or
expand
a
current
facility
or
build
new
is
brought
to
bear
once
finalized.
The
business
case
is
sent
to
HS
and
health
Executives
for
input
and
approval,
so
each
of
these
stages
not
only
need
to
be
submitted
and
completed.
I
They
also
need
to
be
accepted
and
approved
by
the
ministry,
Alberta,
Health,
Services
and
then
finally,
the
ministry
of
infrastructure,
and
that,
at
that
point
after
this
case,
that
will
give
a
sense
of
the
initial
cost
assessment
and
scope
of
the
expansion
of
services
and
that
information
will
then
be
used
to
secure
the
Project
funding
for
an
ongoing
basis
and
again
in
the
case
of
Strathcona
Community
Hospital.
The
business
case
will
require
updating,
after
the
needs
assessment,
validation
and
renewal,
to
confirm
the
scope
and
preparation
of
an
estimated.
G
Budget,
well,
that's
very
thorough
Minister
and
it
helps
me
comprehend
so
much
more
that
the
sequencing
here
of
the
planning,
as
per
the
expansion
I,
really
appreciate
it.
I
would
say
too
that
in
the
2010
to
2012
initial
plan
for
the
full
hospital
we
were
looking
at
108
overnight
beds,
a
surgical
Suite
to
be
determined
and
a
maternity
award.
So
at
this
point,
as
the
MLA
for
Sherwood
Park,
I'm
just
happy
to
Advocate
as
a
general,
so
I'm,
not
a
health
planning,
expert
I,
wouldn't
say:
oh,
we
need
this.
G
We
need
that
I,
certainly
trust
AHS
and
infrastructure
to
make
those
decisions.
I
would
say,
though,
that
my
community
is
understandable,
I
think
most
albertans
definition
of
a
full
hospital
is
overnight.
Bed,
so
I
would
certainly
hope
to
see
those
and
that's
my
understanding
of
what
would
eventually
be
the
so
no
very,
very
exciting
and
oh
go
ahead.
Yeah.
I
I
further
ad
that
in
Indies
consider
considerations,
there
is
a
further
layer
of
complexity
added
when
other
health
Healthcare
facilities
within
the
region
are
also
being
updated
and
contemplated
at
the
same
time.
So
the
the
needs
assessment
in
Strathcona
would
be
impacted
by
the
the
the
massive
investment
in
the
news
recording
hospital
and
how
that
would
change
where
people
go
for
what
services
and
the
consideration
thereof.
The
this
is
where
the
fiscal
responsibility
piece
comes
into
place
is
building
two
of
the
same
thing
in
close
proximity
is
not
necessarily
the
best
use
of
taxpayer
dollars.
I
You
want
to
make
sure
that
you
have
a
full
complement
of
services
provided
to
people
within
a
reasonable
time
frame
of
of
travel
for
those
needs
without
duplicating
or
or
layering
services.
That
may
not
be
required
in
that
way.
This
is
more
particular
to
those
surgical,
because
obvious
surgeries
are
most
often
planned
and
considered
and
booked
ahead
of
time.
G
100
totally
agree:
I
think
you
hit
the
nail
on
the
head
on
the
importance
of
the
the
entire
Alberta
Health
Care
system
is
an
integrated
one,
including
if
you
break
it
out
into
regions
which
ours
would
be
the
capital
region
and
yeah.
We
need
to
ensure
there
is
no
duplication.
For
example,
I
know
in
our
region
for
gallbladder
surgery.
You
generally
go
to
the
Fort
Saskatchewan
Hospital,
including
in
Sherwood
Park.
So
of
course
we
wouldn't
do
gallbladder
in
Sherwood
Park,
but
I
would
also
say
thank
you
for
the
government's
recognition.
G
I
would
say
through
the
chair
that
as
part
of
that
Integrated
Health
System,
including
the
capital
region,
it
will
include
a
full
Strathcona
community
hospital
because
not
every
resource
needs
to
be
inside
the
city
of
Edmonton.
It's
all
part
of
integrated
system
and
I'm
excited
for
the
South
Edmonton
Hospital
too,
and
that'll
be
part
of
it
and
we'll
complement
Sherwood
Park
people
as
well.
But
thank
you
for
that
recognition,
look
forward
to
the
expansion
and
Minister
any
final
comments
on
this
before
I
see
my
time.
Oh.
I
H
Thank
you
so
I
have
a
couple
of
questions,
but
I
see
that
a
little
bit
short
on
time,
so
I
I
do
have
some
questions
about
the
Red
Deer,
Regional
Hospital,
of
course,
but
you
know,
given
the
time
I
I
have
some
other
questions
that
I
think
are
a
little
bit
less
involved.
I
see
that,
of
course,
on
page
115
of
the
capital
plan
we
have
83
million
allocated
over
three
years
for
the
Red
Deer
Justice
Center,
and
that
project,
of
course,
is
well
underway,
really
appreciate.
H
Seeing
that,
could
you
provide
an
update
on
the
project
and
could
you
also
share
with
the
committee
why
additional
funded
funding
is
being
required
for
this
project?
Excellent.
I
Thank
you
very
much.
Member
for
that
yeah.
We
are
building
a
new
Justice
Center
in
downtown
Red
Deer.
That
will
help
relieve
the
backlogs
caused
by
the
lack
of
space
at
the
current
Courthouse,
which
is
currently
at
capacity.
So
the
new
facility
will
measure
approximately
29
000
square
meters
and
include
eight
stories
above
grade
plus
a
mechanical
Penthouse
and
two
stories
below
grade
it
will.
It
will
also
include
a
resolution
Services
wing
and
the
government
will
provide
dispute
resolution,
civil
and
Family
Mediation
arbitration
and
other
alternatives
to
court
in
this
structure.
I
Construction
began
in
August
of
2020
and
is
well
underway
with
construction
completion
expected
by
the
end
of
this
calendar
year.
The
new
Justice
Center
will
feature
12
courtrooms
with
space
for
future
expansion
that
will
accommodate
up
to
16
courtrooms
additional
funding.
As
as
he's
mentioned,
the
the
original
project
was
funded
for
203.1
million
dollars.
There
is
some
funding
increases
due
to
the
disruption
we
saw
in
the
supply
chain
globally
through
the
pandemic.
I
H
Thank
you,
for
you
know
that
information,
I,
know
and
I
appreciate
you
mentioning
the
room
for
expansion
as
part
of
the
build
I
know
one
of
the
reasons
why,
unfortunately,
we
had
to
do
it
in
this
way
as
I
understand
it
is
the
original
building
had
null
ability
to.
B
Extend
you
members
and
that
concludes
the
government,
Member's
First
block
of
questions.
Now
we
move
to
five
minutes
of
questions
from
the
official
opposition,
followed
by
five
minutes
of
response
from
the
minister
as
men
as
mentioned,
members
are
asked
to
advise
the
chair
at
the
beginning
of
their
rotation
if
they
wish
to
combine
their
time
with
The
Minister's
time
boring.
C
Thank
you
so
much
I
I
appreciate
going
back
and
forth.
It's
important
to
be
able
to
do
this
and
I
I'm
very
grateful
for
that
I'd
like
to
return
to
the
conversation
we're
having
about
the
lease
agreements
with
the
non-profits,
particularly
regarding
Harcourt
house
I,
heard
that
come
up
some
a
few
times
so
I'm
just
trying
to
seek
some
clarity.
Regarding
the
current
lease
agreement.
C
I
know
our
government
started
some
paperwork
with
the
intention
of
gifting
the
property
to
Harcourt
house
and
then,
unfortunately,
that
wasn't
done
prior
to
the
election
and
when
the
UCP
came
into
government,
they
canceled
that
gift
agreement-
the
heart
Courthouse,
just
to
give
a
little
bit
of
background,
is
an
organization
non-profit
that
provides
has
been
providing
over
30
years
of
service
to
artists
and
studios
and
is
an
incredible
organization
within
the
city
of
Edmonton.
So,
unfortunately,
what
happened
after
the
gift
was
canceled.
C
There
was
long
periods
of
no
communication
regarding
the
lease
and
they
were.
They
were
really
concerned
about
what
was
going
to
happen.
It
then
got
to
the
point
where
they
were
given
an
eviction
notice
from
the
government
of
Alberta
indicating
that
they
had
to
leave
after
30
years
of
occupying
that
space.
C
So
it
was
after
intense
Grassroots
advocacy
from
the
artist
community
and,
quite
frankly,
NDP
questioning
about
the
status
of
this
eviction
notice.
That
came
to
a
place
where
a
one-year
extension
was
given
to
to
the
lease
you
had
mentioned
that
they
had
asked
to
purchase
it
and
I
would
say.
Yes,
after
being
told
they
would
be
evicted.
They
tried
to
negotiate
and
create
a
space
where
they
could
stay
at
heart
courthouse.
So
now,
my
understanding
is
that
they
were
given
a
one-year
extension
of
the
lease
with
the
proposed
purchasing
price
of
3.5
million.
C
So
I'm
curious
Minister,
where,
where
the
status
of
that
lease
is
and
knowing
that
the
nonprofit
sector
is
struggling
and
has
specifically
been
hit
hard
by
this
government
with
the
artist's
community
and
knowing
that
your
targets
have
decreased
over
half
percent,
to
encourage
albertans
to
attend
artists.
C
Events
and
things:
what
is
the
plan
to
be
able
to
see
them
successful
at
the
end
of
the
lease
so
that
they
can
actually
purchase
it?
What
kind
of
supports
are
being
offered
Etc.
I
Thank
you
very
much
remember
for
the
question
appreciate
the
the
tone
and
the
ability
to
go
back
and
forth
with
you
as
well,
so
it
is,
as
you
well
know,
I
was
only
appointed
minister
of
infrastructure
in
October.
Much
of
these
transactions,
or
Communications
happened
prior
to
that
time,
but
I
have
reconfirmed
my
commitment
to
work
with
them,
given
the
challenges
that
we've
all
faced
over
the
past
few
years
with
the
the
economy
and
with
the
pandemic
and
all
of
that
stuff.
I
So
I
have
reiterated
my
support
for
this
extension
and
lease
and
again,
as
I
stated
earlier
today,
it
is
the
intention,
while
I
sit
in
this
office,
to
continue
to
work
with
them
for
the
best
outcome.
For
both.
It
was
just
noted
technically
that
that
gifting
agreement
was
not
completed
before
the
election
in
2019.,
so
it
was
one
of
those
things
that
that
does
happen
and
things
have
changed
and
gone
on,
but
it
is
a
commitment
at
this
time,
just
another
small
correction.
C
I
So
those
markets
could
go
up,
they
could
go
down
and
it
could
be
related.
The
the
average
appraised
value
as
of
June
2022,
which
is
now
almost
a
year
old
as
well,
was
3.125
million
dollars,
I'm,
sorry,
three
million
one
hundred
and
twelve
and
a
half
million
dollars.
And
one
further
note.
As
of
the
end
of
February,
beginning
of
March
of
this
current
year,
they
provided
a
deposit
to
purchase,
so
they
are
moving
forward
in
in
a
very
good
way.
I
It
is
my
my
understanding
that
they
have
done
a
lot
of
fundraising
there
they're
in
a
very
good
position,
as
with
all
real
estate
transactions
until
you
actually
get
there
and
have
that
evaluation.
The
due
diligence
done
at
that
final
agreement
signing
it
is
difficult
to
predict
whether
that
evaluation
would
go
up
or
down,
but
it
is
the
intention
of
this
ministry
to
handle
them
in
Fair
process
and
make
sure
that
we
continue
to
work
on
them.
I
I
would
say
that
would
include
possibility
that
they
may
or
may
not
do
to
other
outside
factors
seek
a
further
extension
of
the
lease
and
again
because
it
is
Our
intention
to
have
a
successful
resolution
to
this
that,
if
that
were
at
the
future
time
within
an
agreeable
and
that
that
would
be
a
consideration.
We
have
also
agreed
with
him
that
we
want
to
sell
to
them
and
not
go
to
market,
so
we're
not
applying
undue
pressure
on
them
for
that
and
but
I'll.
I
C
C
So
I
I
appreciate
that
you're
at
the
table
and
continuing
to
work
with
them
and
I
truly
hope
that
they're
able
to
be
successful
and
we
don't
lose
this
wonderful
space,
that's
provided
to
artists
and
with
that
I
would
like
to
put
it
over
to
Mr
Carson.
Thank
you.
J
Thank
you
chair
and
thank
you.
Minister
I've
appreciated
the
conversation
so
far
this
morning,
just
a
couple
more
questions
on
on
this
matter
or
in
general,
my
first
one
being
how
many
other,
if
there
is
any
other
non-profit
organizations
or
or
organizations,
leasing
these
buildings
potentially
currently
on
an
expired
lease
that
has
now
been
extended,
is
Harcourt.
The
only
one
is
there.
Others.
L
We
so
as
an
example
with
hardcore
house
where
we
do
have
leases
and
we're
working
with
not-for-profits.
If
they're
experiencing
some
concerns
on
a
case-by-case
basis,
we
will
work
with
a
department
or
a
sponsoring
Department
to
see
if
there
is
the
need
to
extend
the
lease
for
a
period
of
time.
We
don't
want
to
close
the
doors
on
anybody
or
kick
anybody
out,
so
we
do
work
very
closely
with
them
and,
of
course,
the
sponsoring
Department.
L
Most
of
these
of
courses,
we've
noted,
are,
you
know,
Social
Services
type,
related
organizations,
and
so,
let's
all
stop
there.
I.
I
Don't
know,
and
just
for
for
the
Rector
I
can
remember
that
I
appreciate
the
the
question.
If
we
went
back
to
that
original
list
of
NGS,
we
said
about
82
I
know
the
total
is
165.
I
of
the
82.
We
have
approximately
68
ngus
that
have
an
expired
lease
that
we
are
continuing
to
work
on
them
and
and
we
have
not
evicted
them
or
or
sent
them
out.
We
are
continuing
to
work
with
them
to
make
sure
we
can
come
to
a
successful
resolution
on
that.
I.
J
Appreciate
that
Minister
and
a
little
bit
concerning
to
me,
but
hopefully
we
can
resolve
some
of
those
leases,
I
guess
along
a
very
similar
line
of
questioning
and
and
I'm,
not
sure
if
you
could
potentially
table
that
list
that
you're
referencing
right
now
I
think
that
it
would
be
valuable
for
us.
But
if
not
fair
enough,
but
again
similar
line
of
questioning
how
many
more
are
set
to
expire.
And
then
you
will
now
be
negotiating
past
the
the
lease
this
year
and
then
again
same
question
for
next
year.
Right.
I
J
I
I
And
it's
an
ongoing
thing,
as
at
least
is
our
renewed
and
not
renewed.
Some
of
these,
as
I
just
want
to
for
clarity.
Some
of
them
are
municipalities
where
they
would
have
ongoing
funding
so
that
it's
not,
it
would
not
be
a
difficulty
to
match
that
cost
recovery
threshold.
J
Funded
through
program
I
apologize
I
just
have
10
seconds
if
possible.
If
the
ministry
could
table
any
performance
measures
regarding
the
conditions
of
provincial
owned
or
leased
spaces,
I
feel
like
that's
something
that
I've
seen,
but
for
in
terms
of
where
they
are
in
their
life
cycle,
or
you
know.
Thank
you.
B
B
B
B
B
Good,
thank
you,
members.
We
know
we'll
proceed
with
five
minutes
of
questions
from
the
government
members
followed
by
five
minutes
of
response
from
the
minister
members.
Would
you
like
to
combine
time?
Yes,
please
and
Emily
Stefan
Minister.
Would
you
like
to
continue
with
combined
time?
Yes,
please,
yes,
Melody
Stephanie!
You
may
proceed
great.
H
Just
while
we
are
finishing
off
on
court
houses,
page
115
of
the
capital
plan
showed
three
million
for
Edmonton
Law
Courts
planning
I
understand
earlier
this
year.
There
was
a
power
outage
at
the
courthouse
and
just
wanted
to
ask
whether
or
not
this
funding
is
in
response
to
that
event.
Is
it
a
repair
to
the
current
Courthouse
or
is
a
new
building
needed.
I
Thank
you,
member.
No,
this
funding
was
planted
before
so
the
costs
for
the
repair
will
likely
come
forward
to
treasury
at
a
future
time.
It
was
an
unexpected
event
and
anticipated
in
the
sense
that
there
was
funding.
This
funding
was
already
being
prepared
for
eventual
work
on
on
that
site
that
that
event
happened
and
and
the
response
that
has
been
within
the
emergency
response
plan
and
all
of
those
issues
have
been
addressed
and
alleviated,
but
there
will
likely
be
additional
funding
required
to
fully
complete
the
construction
on
on
that
repair.
Sure.
H
Thank
you
for
that
clarification.
I
I
now
want
to
turn
my
time
to
the
Red
Deer
Regional
Hospital.
This
is
a
very
important
Capital
project,
not
only
for
the
families
and
individuals
in
Red
Deer,
but
throughout
central
Alberta.
H
This
is
the
only
acute
Hospital
in
the
area
having
a
service
area
of
about
400,
000
individuals
and
Families,
just
by
a
quick
background
why
this
is
such
an
important
project
for
our
community.
This
has
been
a
long
time
need
for
individuals
and
families
throughout
central
Alberta
that
contribute
very
greatly
to.
Of
course,
the
Alberti
economy
and
part
of
the
issue
is
is
frankly
that
there
was
some
unfairness
in
terms
of
Prior
governments
and
AHS
in
terms
of
health
care
infrastructure
allocations
throughout
the
province.
H
Unfortunately,
the
provin,
the
the
hospital,
was
dropped
by
the
prior
government
from
the
infrastructure
priority
list,
which
was
very
unfortunate
but
I'm
very
happy
about
the
good
news
that
we
can
talk
about
today,
in
that
this
is
being
back
on
the
list
and
we
have
a
1.8
billion
dollar
commitment
from
the
government
to
proceed
with
development.
H
So
with
this
good
news,
obviously
the
individuals
and
families
in
Red,
Deer
and
central
Alberta
are
very
anxious,
because
this
has
been
such
a
long
time
need
and
part
of
that.
We
need
transparency
and
we
need
to
have
accountability
and
I.
Appreciate
that
you
had
an
open
house
on
the
hospital
and
I
would
just
like
to
hear
from
the
minister
how
that
how
what
feedback
he's
received
from
having
that
open
house
for
members
of
the
community,
great.
I
Thank
you
very
much
for
the
question.
Remember.
It
was
I
thought
it
was
a
very
good
session,
both
with
mayor
and
Council,
and
then
with
the
community.
Over
150
people
were
in
attendance,
including
other
elected
officials
from
across
the
region,
infrastructure
staff
and
Alberta
Health
services
staff
was
there
with
different
displays,
talking
about
the
site
plan,
the
schedule
and
the
Very
various
aspects
of
the
construction.
I
We
engaged,
as
you
well
know,
as
you
were
there
yourself,
that
there
was
a
robust
conversation
and
discussion
with
residents
and
others
in
the
room
about
their
hopes
and
concerns
and
the
ideas
for
the
future
of
this
facility.
In
Red
Deer,
we
outlined
the
steps
required
to
bring
a
complex
project
such
as
the
red
year,
Hospital
from
the
early
planning
stages
to
successful
completion,
and
we
explained
that
the
project
involves
a
number
of
phases.
I
There
will
be
a
new
expansion
in
inpatient,
Tower,
adjacent
and
connected
to
the
existing
hospital
and
a
new
Ambulatory
Care
building,
which
will
be
located
on
the
south
side
of
the
existing
multi-level
Parkade.
Following
completion
of
those
phases,
there
will
be
Renovations
and
reconfiguration
inside
the
existing
Hospital
building.
I
That
is
why
there
is
such
a
need
for
planning
to
make
sure
that
these
things
are
handled
carefully,
to
not
impact
current
patients,
but
keep
them
safe
and
away
from
any
construction
noise,
Sound
Vibrations,
so
that
they
can
continue
on
with
their
healing
journey
and
make
sure
that
the
new
spaces
are
provided
for
them
in
good
time.
With
all
of
these
considerations
in
mind,
oh.
H
Well,
that's
wonderful.
I
know
that
central
Alberta,
like
many
other
parts
of
Alberta,
are
just
seeing
record
migration
and
growth,
and
it's
great
to
see
that
we're
going
to
have
this
investment
that
not
only
will
address
that
growth,
but
frankly,
over
the
past
decade
or
more
low
per
capita
infrastructure
funding
in
the
central
zone
versus
other
parts
of
the
province
in
terms
of
moving
this
project
forward
in
an
accountable,
transparent
way.
H
I
So
we
are
moving
forward
with
the
completion
of
the
functional
plan,
which
should
be
complete
by
the
end
of
this
month
or
thereabouts
as
well
as
we've
completed
the
request
for
proposal
from
a
prime
consultant,
which
we
are
now
evaluating
through
the
ministry
which
will
be
awarded
shortly.
Those
two
things
going
together
will
be
significant
in
next
step
in
this
whole
process.
I
As
we've
discussed
many
conversations
through
through
today's
meeting,
we
know
that
the
complexity
of
a
healthcare
facility
requires
sufficient
planning,
and
while
we
can
focus
on
that
and
put
resources
to
that,
to
speed
that
up
somewhat
somewhat,
the
process
does
take
time,
because
so
many
considerations
need
to
be
brought
to
bear
on
the
planning
for
this
from
my
construction
history
and
many
stakeholders
that
I've
talked
with
the
best
projects
and
their
outcomes
are
achieved
by
good,
thorough
and
consistent
planning.
I
If
you
rush
the
planning
process,
if
you
try
to
go
beyond
what
the
industry
is
able
to
bear
in
the
sense
that
most
construction
companies
in
architectural
engineering
firms
don't
have
one
project
on
their
Plate
at
a
time,
they
would
often
have
multiple
and
overlapping.
I
The
service
usage,
the
the
flow
of
patiences,
as
well
as
doctors
and
nurses
and
Health
Care
staff
for
the
best
outcome,
with
the
added
complexity
that
being
in
addition
to
an
existing
facility.
You
don't
want
any
negative
impacts
upon
those
patients
that
are
there
currently
as
the
the
construction
moves
forward.
So
we're
working
to
plan
design
and
build
this
expansion,
one
that
meets
the
needs
of
the
community
and
region
as
quickly
and
safely
as
possible.
With
all
of
these
considerations
being
brought
to
bear
sure.
H
And
maybe
just
a
supplemental
question
just
based
on
what
you
said
and
I
know
that
every
project
has
its
own
unique
aspects
and
complexities.
I'm
wondering
you
know,
given
that
the
province
of
Alberta
has
been
building
hospitals
for
a
while.
H
Given
that
we
of
course
recently
completed
the
Grand
Prairie
hospital
bill,
we
actually
on
in
a
pretty
efficient
way,
I
think
construct
the
Calgary
cancer
center
and
that's
a
great
job
I'm,
just
wondering
in
terms
of
you
know,
taking
into
account.
H
Yes,
there
are
unique
considerations
with
any
project,
but
are
we
able
to
see
some
efficiencies
that
we
learned
from
building
hospitals
in
the
past,
including
the
accelerated
timeline
with
the
Calgary
Cancer
Center
applied
in
certain
areas
to
accelerate
the
timeline
for
the
construction
not
only
of
the
Red
Deer
Regional
hospital,
but
other
parts
of
the
province
where
health
care
facilities
are
being
constructed
and
needed
to
meet
an
amazing
growth
in
population?
Because
people
are
coming
to
Alberta,
it's
a
great
place
to
live
and
raise
our
families
and
work.
I
Great
question
and
you've
hit
the
the
Crux
of
the
challenge
with
any
construction
project
anywhere
in
the
world,
not
just
Alberta
that
each
project
is
unique
unto
itself.
It
is
often
easier
to
accommodate
those
Lessons
Learned
in
what's
termed
as
a
Greenfield
project,
where
you
have
basically
a
green
field,
nothing
there
and
you
can
start
from
new.
This
is
what's
considered
a
Brownfield
because
there's
an
existing
building,
so
that
immediately
sets
us
off
on
a
different
direction.
Good.
B
K
Thank
you
very
much
Mr
chair,
so
just
as
a
background
I'm
going
to
give
you
what
has
been
related
to
me
in
terms
of
where
we
are
for
the
South
Edmonton
Hospital.
So
just
bear
with
me
here.
So
as
you
recognize,
the
announcement
was
made
in
2017.
on
March
16.
The
government
of
Alberta
approved
the
new
hospital
in
the
budget,
2017
Capital
plan,
with
an
initial
commitment
of
400
million
over
four
years
on
May
30th
of
2017.
K
2018
the
neighborhood
area
structure
plan
public
engagement
via
online
survey
by
the
city
of
Edmonton
was
completed:
recruitment
of
a
patient
advisory
Council
to
guide
development
of
a
new
Edmonton
Hospital
also
completed.
The
patient
advisory
has
been
established
to
assist
the
project
team
in
understanding
the
needs
of
patients
and
their
families,
and
to
support
ongoing
project
development
from
March
28th
to
March
1st
the
project
and
sight
blessing
and
celebration
was
also
completed,
and
it
was
hosted
by
the
Alberta
Health
Services
wisdom,
Council
and
local
indigenous
community
members,
as
I
commenced.
K
K
Preliminary
site
work
was
done
in
2022
for
site
preparation
was
commenced
and
design
architectural
design
was
to
commence
in
2023,
based
on
the
functional
service
plan.
So
number
one.
K
And
to
remind
you
is
I've
been
informed
that
it
was
completed
in
2019
and
that
it
was
submitted
to
Alberta,
Health
and
Alberta
infrastructure.
This
plan
identified
the
number
of
beds
in
the
hospital
and
services
that
will
be
provided
on
site.
This
required
the
engagement
of
the
clinicians
and
leaders
of
clinical
departments
that
were
providing
care
on
the
campus,
as
well
as
the
engagement
of
the
members
of
the
patient
and
family
advisory
Council.
Can
you
or
your
ministry
officials
corroborate
that
this
indeed
was
completed
so.
I
To
answer
your
question:
yes,
the
clinical
service
plan
was
completed
in
2019
after
the
election.
That
is
the
the
the
second
step.
So
it's
step
one
eight
of
of
the
process
to
get
to
a
capital
project
plan.
So
all
I
did
take
notes
a
number
of
those
the
public
engagement
2018,
the
draft
neighborhood
plan,
the
patient
advisory,
the
site
blessing.
Many
of
those
processes
were
undertaken
by
the
city
of
Edmonton,
not
by
Alberta,
Health,
Services
or
the
ministry
of
infrastructure.
The
needs
assessment
which
leads
into
the
clinical
service
plans,
was
completed
in
2019.
I
Then?
What
takes?
What
is
the
next
step
is
the
business
case.
This
phase
takes
one
to
two
years
of
planning
and
Albert
infrastructure
working
with
Alberta
Health,
Services,
Alberta,
Health
and
treasury
board.
This
planning
phase
updates
a
service
delivery
plan
to
identify
site-specific,
User
Group
needs
which
inform
a
master
space
program
for
a
facility.
The
business
case
includes
an
assessment
of
the
current
facility
status,
identification
of
an
infrastructure,
Capital
solution
with
Alternatives
cost
benef
analysis
schedule,
business
operations.
K
and
has
been
submitted
to
Alberta
infrastructure
and
Alberta
Health,
and
that
this
plan
identifies
the
services
that
were
provided
throughout
the
hospital,
the
number
of
patients
and
staff
that
will
be
present
in
each
area
of
the
hospital
and
campus
and
the
square
area
required
to
provide
those
services.
This
required
the
engagement
of
the
clinicians
and
leaders
of
clinical
departments
that
will
be
providing
care
of
the
campus,
as
well
as
the
engagement
of
the
members
of
the
patient
and
family
advisory
committee
or
Council,
and
that
was
completed.
I
I
So,
as
you
heard
me
say
to
some
of
the
former
members,
particularly
the
member
from
Strathcona,
about
that
Health
Care
Facility
over
time
as
different
Healthcare
facilities
are,
are
built,
particularly
in
a
region
which,
let's
just
talk
about
Edmonton,
of
which
there
are
many
Health
Care
Facilities
that
have
been
brought
on
stream
since
2017.
That
impacts
that
planning
and
assessment.
So
and
all
of
these
steps,
the
needs
assessment,
clinical
service
plan
business
case,
functional
program
is
technically
should
be
done
before
the
capital
announcement.
I
I
So
some
of
the
work
that
went
into
the
Edmonton
South
if
I
could
just
finish
this
one
side
and
then
I'll
hand
it
back
over
is
what
was
contemplated
in
the
functional
plan
for
the
Edmonton
South
hospital
to
my
understanding
had
a
significant
number
of
services
that
are
now
being
met
in
other
facilities
and
that's
a
key
change,
because
that
has
a
massive
implant
implication
on
size,
cost
and
functionality
of
that
hospital.
Okay,.
K
So
the
the
intention
of
the
new
South
Edmonton
hospital
was
to
provide
those
350
to
500
new
patient
beds,
right
when
you're
doing
the
analysis
on
the
services
that
are
being
provided
at
either
the
Misericordia
or
at
the
gray
nuns.
K
What
how
many
VES
does
that
translate
to,
because
that's
the
real
issue
here
is
that
there's
not
enough
beds
for
for
albertans
in
order
to
access
the
health
care
that
they
need,
and
that
is
the
real
concern.
So
I
can
understand
that
Services
yeah
may
be
duplicated
or
but
what
is
the
intent
with
the
beds?
Great.
I
Question
I
appreciate
the
member
bringing
that
forward.
So
a
lot
of
that
question
would
need
to
be
answered
by
Health,
but
I
will
say
that
the
the
Misericordia
has
an
extensive
increase
in
size
for
for
emergency
and
ambulatory
care,
so
that
impacted
there
as
Strathcona
the
number
of
beds.
There
would
be
a
consideration
Factor.
I
Not
all
of
those
beds
would
be
plus
minus
from
if
they
go
and
start
cats
Corner,
they
don't
need
to
go
in
Edmond
South,
but
there
is
a
consideration
for
some
the
the
stahlery
healthcare
facility
as
they
are
approaching
and
it
is
being
contemplated
for
a
new
Standalone
Children's
Hospital.
The
current
beds
in
the
Alberta
Health
University
of
Alberta
site
I
think
some
numbers
between
100
and
150
beds
that
that's
a
consideration
to
be
made
here,
as
well
as
the
overall
analysis
of
our
health
care
System.
I
What
the
pandemic
revealed
to
a
great
extent
is
that
one
of
the
biggest
challenges
we
face
is
that
there
are
people
staying
in
hospital
where
they
could
be
going
to
continuing
care,
which
is
why
our
government
has
made
such
a
significant
investment
in
Continuing
Care
beds,
so
that
those
beds
in
hospitals
wouldn't
be
taken
care
of
and
from
my
understanding
in
many
conversations
with
Healthcare
professionals
is
that
we
want
to
have
a
healthcare
system
that
isn't
too
focused
either
on
emergency.
B
F
Please
chair:
if
that's
okay
with
the
minister.
N
F
Is
sorry
all
right,
this
is
kind
of
fun,
there's
a
recovering
infrastructure,
Minister
myself
and-
and
let
me
just
say
that
it's
nice
to
see
that
you're
here
with
the
All-Star
team
I'm
talking
about
all
the
people
up
front
with
you,
I've
worked
with
before
you've
got
your
blessed
man
to
have
such
wonderful
stuff.
F
Minister
on
page
113
of
Capital
plan,
52
million
dollars
over
three
years
is
provided
for
the
Foothills
Medical
Center,
neonatal
Intensive
Care
Unit
in
Calgary
I
guess
what
does
the
product
project
entail
and
will
the
Foothills
Medical
Center
remain
operational
during
the
project
and
if
yes,
have
you
dialed
in
all
the
safety
measures,
you'll
need
to
keep
the
construction
site
safe,
as
well
as
those
seeking
medical
assistance.
F
At
the
same
time,
safe
and
I
say
this
because
I
don't
I
think
we
all
would
agree
that
intensive
care
units
are
critical
spaces
that
provide
care
to
extremely
delicate
human
being
yeah.
So
what's
in
place
there,
please.
I
Great
thank
you
to
the
member
for
the
question.
Thank
you
for
acknowledging
the
staff
within
the
infrastructure.
They
are
all
exceptional,
including
all
the
ones
in
the
gallery.
The
group
they
spend
an
amazing
amount
of
time
serving
albertans
and
and
don't
often
get
recognized.
So
I
commend
the
member
for
for
doing
that.
Thank
you
back
to
the
the
Foothills
Medical
Center,
neonatal
Intensive,
Care
Unit
in
Calgary.
I
This
is
one
of
the
one
of
the
projects
that
can
come
can
truly
highlight
the
complexity
of
what
the
considerations
for
how
do
we
expand
and
increase
our
Medical
Care.
You
set
that
question
up
very,
very
well
in
the
sense
that
neonatal
babies
are
extremely
sensitive
to
adverse
conditions,
including
and
which
is
in
crucially
important
at
this
point
is
sound
and
vibration.
Dust
is
actually
as
as
problematic
as
Dusty
is
in
a
construction
process.
I
So
a
huge
amount
of
work
is
being
undertaken
to
find
an
alternative
site
for
that
care
and
with
all
the
medical
required
equipment
and
the
ability
to
to
treat
them
so
that
the
proper
construction
work
can
happen,
because,
even
as
we've
experienced
in
the
meeting
today,
the
vibration
of
a
phone
on
a
desk
can
interfere
with
some
of
this
equipment.
I
Yeah,
you
could
not
even
consider
doing
jack
hammering
or
saw
cutting
through
concrete,
which
is
some
of
the
activities
required
to
do
that,
so
that
that
step,
one
is
patient
care
and
patient
safety
with
an
alternative
space
to
to
to
do
that
work.
While
we
do
it,
the
project
will
create
60,
neonatal
ICU,
patient
care
spaces,
the
Redevelopment
of
levels,
five
and
six
of
the
main
building
West
Wing
will
increase
the
space
for
a
total
of
two.
I
Almost
three
thousand
square
meters,
and
and
I
mentioned
the
complexity
of
that
so,
rather
than
trying
to
pay
for
huge
costs
to
mitigate
those
impacts,
we're
seeking
to
move
those
patients
Elsewhere
for
their
safety,
and
hopefully
that
answers
your
question.
Okay,.
F
Well,
that's
helpful,
so
we
got
to
look
after
those
little
ones,
Minister
your
key
objective,
1.3.
On
page
75
of
the
business
plan,
it
states
that
you
would
like
your
ministry
to
reduce
red
tape
by
streamlining,
simplifying
and
standardizing
legalization
legislation,
regulations,
contracts,
policies
and
processes
by
evaluating
recommendations
submitted
by
priority
stakeholders
and
Industry
panels,
including
prompt
pay.
I
Excellent
question
appreciate
that,
yes,
reducing
red
tape
has
been
a
key
objective
of
this
ministry
from
even
long
before,
and
I
would
like
to
acknowledge
the
Fantastic
work
of
the
former
Minister
Prasad
Panda,
particularly
in
this
area,
and
continued
by
Minister
Nick
Milliken
in
his
work
to
date.
The
reduction
of
red
tape
is
achieved,
33
reduction,
and
we
continue
to
do
that.
One
of
the
the
Endeavors
that
I've
brought
to
the
ministry
since
being
appointed
was
a
focus
on
the
relationship
between
the
government
of
Alberta
and
its
key
stakeholders
in
terms
of
capital
project.
I
That
has
been
an
emphasis
of
mine
and
my
staff
since
that
time,
where
again
mentioning
the
industry
liaison
committees
where
we
have
a
committed
Focus,
not
just
on
clear
communication
but
on
listening.
If,
if
we
have
these
meetings
with
industry,
but
we
don't
listen
to
the
takeaways
and
try
to
incorporate
that
into
our
action
plan,
then
is
really
a
failed,
failed
objective.
So
we've
done
a
lot
of
work
with
that.
I
My
my
staff
had
a
meeting
with
the
industry
just
yesterday
and
he
was
I
believe
the
term
used
was
gushing
over
the
communication
and
listening
that
we've
been
doing
with
them
and
I.
Take
that
as
a
mark
of
relationship
rebuilding
to
not
just
achieve
a
bureaucratic
check
mark
on
uncutting
red
tape,
but
making
a
difference
in
their
business
and
in
the
business
of
albertans
in
delivering
key
infrastructure
projects.
F
Hey
hold
nobody
ever
gushed
when
I
was
there
as
best
I
can
tell
so.
Is
there
any
measurable
impacts
on
the
on
the
red
tape
production
either
in
shorter,
wait
times,
lower
costs
increased
quality?
Any
of
that
is
there
anything
you
could
actually
measure
and
point
to
absolutely.
I
So,
along
with
all
of
those
objectives
that
you
you
named
just
making
that
process
simply
more
straightforward,
that
will
save
businesses
money
just
in
the
base
count.
We
achieved
a
reduction
of
like
3
400
regulatory
requirements,
like
that's
a
huge
number
of
steps
that
we've
removed
from
that
some
of
the
accomplished
initiatives
would
be
a
simplified
Transportation
utility
Corridor
application
process
where
we've
developed
a
single
electronic
application
form
for
requesting
a
consistent
submission.
I
I
Just
by
getting
updated,
we've
improved
the
infrastructure
technological
resource
site
so
that
the
in
people
we've
removed,
redundant
information
and
outdated
information
to
make
it
more
efficient
for
them
to
businesses
to
acquire
the
information
they
need.
We've
accelerated
the
approval
process
for
post-secondary
institutions,
land
dispositions,
a
lot
of
universities
would
have
a
land
bank
or
something
that
they
have
used
for
future
future
evaluations
and
where
they
may
not
need
a
building.
F
The
chair
I'm,
going
to
interrupt
you
no
prepared
permission
only
because
time's
running
short
here
and
I
want
to
ask
you
about
prompt
pay
legislation.
Are
we
making
progress?
Are
the
people
that
actually
do
the
work?
You
know
that
run
the
equipment
that
have
a
hammer
and
a
saw
in
their
hand
and
do
the
stuff
is?
Are
we
making
any
progress?
Getting
those
good
people
paid
absolutely.
I
Yeah
we
we
really
have.
We
not
only
introduce
a
prompt
payment
and
construction
liens
act
as
you
would
well
know
it
went
through
the
house.
We
are
also
set
our
sights
and
in
our
bill,
nine,
that
is
before
the
chamber
right
now.
We've
included
some
some
work
towards
a
public
works
act
to
simplify
that
to
allow
the
minister
of
infrastructure
the
authority
to
change
regulations.
F
Cut
so
I
appreciate,
sometimes
people
don't
get
paid
because
the
work
either
didn't
get
done
or
was
substandard,
but
sometimes
it
doesn't
get
paid
because
the
main
contractor
that's
been
paid
just
as
convenience
of
self.
By
not
passing
the
money,
all
I
realized.
Both
those
situations
can
exist.
Are
we
going
to
have
any
Hammer
to
make
sure
after
people
are
getting
paid?
The
work
is
actually
done
satisfactorily
that
the
the
payment
will
happen
in
a
more
timely
fashion.
I
Yes,
we,
that
is
the
intention
of
our
government,
is
to
adopt
those
kinds
of
policies
into
the
Public's
work
act
which
governs
the
the
government
of
Alberta
and
its
processes.
Currently
infrastructure
meets
a
30-day
payment
obligations
96
of
the
time,
and
we
want
to
that
and
help
our
general
contractors
to
do
to
do
the
same.
B
K
With
combined
time
as
the
ministers,
thank
you
very
much
Mr
chair
so
Minister.
We
we
did
Cover
in
our
in
the
previous
opportunity
that
the
clinical
service
plan
was
completed,
okay,
whose
responsibility
is
it
to
come
up
with
the
clinical
service
plan?.
I
So
The
Clinical
Services
plan
is
a
phase
that
can
take
two
to
three
years
involves
closely
working
with
Alberta
Health
and
Alberta
Health
Services.
This
process
is
informed
by
the
AHS
provincial
Zone,
the
sites,
models
of
care
and
the
clinical
Service
delivery
options
and
strategic
and
business
plans
extensive
research
into
patient
demographics,
alternative
Service,
delivery
options,
an
assessment
of
the
existing
facilities
is
required
in.
I
K
I
Just
make
sure
I'm
just
just
a
little
technicality,
we're
calling
it
functional
programming,
okay,
functional
program,
just
just
for
clarity.
This
phase
takes
one
or
two
years:
Alberta
infrastructure
works
with
HS
and
Alberta
Health.
Through
this
phase,
there
is
a
detailed
inventory
of
space
required
to
support
operational
needs
created.
It
also
includes
engagement
with
the
stakeholders,
including
patient
family
advisory,
Council
wisdom,
Council,
health
services,
staff,
I.T
and
Physicians.
They
address
site
requirements
for
each
partner,
such
as
zoning
program
and
space
allocations.
Clinical
equipment
needs
Furnishings,
I.T
and
New
York.
I
I
would
only
add
the
caveat
that
it
is
led
by
infrastructure
and
health,
and
that
does
need
to
be
a
consideration
again.
They
influence
that
that
process,
as
well
as
having
the
responsibility
of
the
fiscal
requirements
for
those
decisions
to
be
a
consideration,
and
that
is
often
where,
where
the
two
two
key
stakeholders,
if
I
can
say
that
would
would
have
the
the
Confluence
of
that
requirement.
I
K
You
had
mentioned
that
the
functional
program,
even
though
it
was
submitted
in
the
fall
of
2022
the
it
hasn't
it
has
not
been
accepted.
So
can
we
get
back
to
that
line
of
questioning
sure?
What
is
the
process
by
which
you
know
the
stakehold?
All
the
stakeholders
involved,
they've
done
all
their
work,
they've
managed
to
complete
it.
They've
submitted
it.
I
So
the
hold
up
is
two
two
parts.
One
part
is
that
Health
needs
to
look
at
new
models
of
care
which
we
are
in
assessing
the
provincial
response
out
of
Lessons
Learned
From,
the
pandemic,
which
that
many
many
beds
in
our
Hospital
are.
I
By
those
patients
that
could
be
cared
for
in
a
Continuing
Care
space,
so
that's
a
very
new
development
and
consideration
that
Health,
the
Ministry
of
Health,
is
obligated
to
review
in
their
assessment
of
accepting
a
functional
plan
and-
and
that's
probably
the
single
greatest
challenge
to
that
acceptance.
We.
K
That
not
from
health
problem
I
can
respect
that
okay.
So
then
we
obviously
need
to
complete
this
project
sooner
rather
than
later.
Let's
can
we
agree
on
that,
at
least.
Yes,
we
do
okay,
so
then
the
the
can
you
just
remind
us
for
the
record,
then
how
much
of
the
this
current
budget
will
is
being
allocated
to
this
to
this
South
Edmonton
Hospital
643
million
dollars
at
this
bookcase.
So
I
would
like
to
know
then
of
that
644
million.
I
I
For
that
I
will
I
will
just
make
these
comments
to
set
that
up,
that
we
are
working
to
finalize
and
affirm
the
the
functional
program
which
you're
saying
that
is
the
where
we
are
at
right
now,
and
it
is
my
understanding
that
about
52
million
dollars
has
already
been
spent
or
is
being
spent
in
terms
of
the
site
servicing
and
work.
There.
K
Just
for
clarity
and
and
to
get
a
little
bit
of
detail
on
the
record,
what
exactly
is
happening
with
that
money?
Sure.
I
Project
activities
are
ongoing
and
include
the
following
site:
work
related
to
materials,
deliveries,
pipelines,
Integrity
testing,
as
as
I've
stated
in
question
period,
there
is
a
pipeline
under
that
pipeline
surveys
and
Crossing
agreements,
because
there
are
significant
considerations
to
be
made.
It
doesn't
make
the
the
site
unviable
in
any
way.
I'm.
Just
saying
it's
a
consideration
that,
with
agreements
with
another
stakeholder
whose
job
it
is
to
do
that
has
to
be
worked.
Work
underway
includes.
M
Is
a
very
broad
question?
Sorry
I,
don't
think
we
have
that
answer.
I
mean
we'd
have
to
take
a
look.
I
I
I
would
like
to
just
speak
to
that.
It's
a
negotiation
for
this,
because
the
design,
the
future
design
will
have
a
great
impact
on
that
negotiation.
If,
if
the
the
site
crossing
of
the
pipeline
on
the
site
is
off
to
the
side,
that
impact
would
be
much
less
so
than
if
it
was
across
the
center
and
required
a
design
change
to
make
sure
that
that
parking
lot
or
a
corner
of
the
building
didn't
go
over
that
that's
one
for
safety,
two
is
for
maintenance.
That
kind
of
thing.
K
I
Sure
so,
basically-
and
this
is
in
millions-
yes,
so
so
the
Edmonton
Hospital,
the
forecast
budget,
2023
expenditures,
just
over
34
million
24
25-
is
about
300
million
and
25
26.
Another
300
million
those
two
items
I
contemplate
would
be
the
planning
and
design
phases
of
that
as
a
as
a
percentage
of
the
overall
construction
cost
design.
Okay,.
K
I
That
is
challenging
so
sorry
when
that
answer
will
be
more
definable
when
the
full
scope
and
budget
are
confirmed,
as
well
as
design
activities
having
started
so
that
major
construction
activities
can
come
in.
So
all
of
those
steps
influence
that
again
when
we
were
talking
about
ipd
contracts,
that
kind
of
thing
is
we
could
get
started
sooner,
but
without
that
cost
certainty
once
we
know
exactly
what
we're
building
we
can.
B
M
D
Thank
you,
Mr
chair.
It's
a
pleasure
to
join
you
here,
minister
and
I,
wanted
to
start
off
by
officially
on
the
record,
congratulating
you
on
the
role
of
Minister
and
Deputy
premier
well
deserved,
so
I
wanted
to
actually
continue
on
the
line
of
questioning
from
the
members
opposite,
but
from
a
different
perspective.
I
want
to
talk
about
the
Grand,
Prairie,
Regional
hospital
and
and
the
reason
that
you
need
a
functional
plan,
so
I
want
to
reference
here
for
a
second
I
want
to
reference.
D
Outcome,
1.2
deliver
capital
projects
on
time
on
budget
and
to
scope
to
ensure
high
quality,
Public
Services.
So
that's
a
bit
that's
a
tall
order,
especially
when
you're
building
hospitals,
I
think
we're
all
understanding
that
more
and
certainly
as
an
MLA
I
have
a
different
appreciation
for
construction
of
a
hospital
than
I
did
five
years
ago.
D
I
would
have
compared
it
to
a
school
or
another
project,
but
a
health
health
facility
is
a
very
different
undertaking
so
and
then
I
want
to
reference
on
page
76,
1B
performance
measure,
percentage
of
infrastructure
management
delivered
capital
projects
that
are
on
budget.
So
this
is
a
bit
of
a
sticking
point
because
it
spans
several
several
administrations
and
had
really
nothing
to
do
with
you,
as
in
the
role
of
Minister.
But
I
just
wanted
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
that.
D
D
Minister
and
through
the
chair,
if
we
had
had
a
plan,
I
would
just
want
to
say
failing
to
plan
is
planning
to
fail
and
and
I
think
we've
learned
those
lessons
so
I
just
wanted
to
know
if
the
minister
could
expand
on
what
lessons
were
learned
from
this
project
and
what
is
the
ministry
doing
to
avoid
similar
issues
in
the
future
and
I'd
love?
Some
specifics,
because
my
constituents
have
asked
repeatedly.
That
was
the
number
one
issue
in
the
2019
election
in
my
riding.
I
Actually,
thank
you
to
the
member
for
the
questions
for
you
chair
and
to
let
her
know
that
I
still
have
that
email
request
for
Lessons
Learned
up
on
my
my
computer
screen
every
time
I
I
log
in
so
one
of
the
key
Lessons
Learned
is
that
the
political
cycle
has
great
impact
on
Capital
infrastructure,
particularly
one
that
spans
multiple
Administrations.
I
Because
of
the
complexity
of
that
now
that
so
some
of
the
Lessons
Learned
is
that,
despite
that
political
pressure,
we
need
to
make
sure
that
we
do
have
those
planning
processes
fully
completed
fully
accepted
fully
in
place,
because
they
will
help
reduce
and
limit
the
number
of
change
orders,
which
is
a
natural
process
in
the
course
of
constructions.
That
things
will
be
learned
on
the
way,
as
you
go
in
each
individual
case,
but
to
minimize
those
as
best
as
possible
should
be
the
objective
of
any
Administration.
I
We
want
to
make
sure
that
you
have
all
those
planning
pieces
in
place
prior
to
a
budget,
so
that
you're
not
constantly
moving
that
budget
Target
as
you're
learning
on
the
way,
strengthening
and
improving
contract
language,
specifically
regarding
compensation
and
completion
dates,
as
well
as
the
defining
of
how
to
handle
changes
or
problems
in
construction
As.
You
move
along
and
modernizing
project
planning,
project,
planning,
monitoring
and
financial
tools,
as
required
to
safeguard
the
progress
of
the
project
and
the
health
of
those
relationships
as
we
go.
I
Those
are
some
of
the
key
lessons
that
we've
learned
and
where
I'm
hoping
to
bring
my
construction
experience
to
bear
that
in
my
experience,
anyways
nothing
replaces
good
planning
on
a
project
it's
hard,
because
people
are
impatient.
They
want
to
see
something
go
up
and
see
that
happen,
but
the
time
you
can
save
in
your
construction
by
good
planning
is
is
more
than
saved.
If
you
do
that
well,.
D
Appreciate
that
ministering
through
the
chair,
thank
you
to
the
minister
for
that
answer.
I
I
would
just
reiterate
that
in
hindsight,
it's
it's
not
a
service
to
the
taxpayer
or
to
the
people
of
the
province
of
Alberta.
If
we
don't
plan
and
then
we
overspend
so
that
we
can't
afford
a
South
Edmonton
hospital
now,
because
we
spent
double
or
triple
on
Grand
Prairie
I,
don't
know
the
numbers,
but
I
know
that
it
was.
D
I
would
love
if
the
minister
could
add
a
little
bit
of
detail
around,
and
this
is
just
sort
of
an
off
the
cuff
question
of
curiosity
around
the
complexities
of
building
a
health,
particularly
a
hospital
versus,
say
a
school
or
another
project.
I
think
that's
one
of
the
things
that's
very
confusing
for
constituents
is
well.
The
school
went
up
in
a
year.
Why
can't
the
hospital
go
up
in
a
year
but
they're
a
very
different
scope
and
a
very
different
planning
process?
If
you
could
just
expand
on
that
a
little
bit
truly.
I
Appreciate
the
question,
thank
you.
So,
as
I
said
stated
earlier,
to
Emily
Walker
courthouse
is,
is
well
defined
and
understood
on
what's
required
same
with
a
school
all
of
us
here
as
soon
as
I
say
the
word
school
you
can
imagine
where
you
went
to
school
the
size
of
the
classroom,
how
hallways
work,
the
the
key
facilities
in
a
school,
gymnasium,
Library,
principal's
office,
so
on
and
so
forth,
depending
on
whether
you're
required
to
go
there
or
not.
But
we
we
can
Define
that
and
and
same
with
that
with
design.
I
Maybe
we
have
a
two-story,
maybe
we
don't?
Maybe
we
have
an
Atrium
with
lots
of
light,
but
the
elements
are
well
known
in
in
the
healthcare
facility
that
complexity
in
exponentially
one
is
the
same
care
provided
to
a
different
patient
can
require
different
equipment
and
different
technology.
For
instance,
a
blocked
Airway
in
an
infant
is
very,
very
then
a
blocked
Airway
in
a
full-grown
adult
or
even
different,
yet
again
in
a
senior
who
may
have
a
more
fragile
skeletal
frame.
That
kind
of
thing,
but
it's
the
same
care,
so
you
need
different
equipment.
I
You
need
a
different
space.
You
did
different
training
and
all
of
those
things
very
into
that
Behind,
the
Walls,
there's
a
complexity
in
terms
of
what
you
need,
it's
uncomfortable
to
say
it's
uncomfortable
to
acknowledge,
but
there
are
biohazardous
wastes
that
come
out
in
in
many
of
our
our
Healthcare
facilities,
blood
and
bodily
fluids
and
those
kind
of
things
those
don't
just
go
in
the
garbage.
They
have
to
be
handled
very
carefully
and
considerately
with
all
kinds
of
infection,
prevention
control,
and
we
have
the
added
complexity
that
not
only
in
a
healthcare
facility.
I
Do
we
provide
care
for
the
patient.
We
also
had
to
provide
safety
for
those
providing
the
care,
which
means
there's
infection,
prevention,
control
measures
on
the
apparel
that
doctors
and
nurses
in
health
care,
technologists
and
Healthcare
people
wear
their
security
services
to
make
sure
that
patients
do
not
act
in
inappropriate
manner.
Sometimes
that's
beyond
their
control.
One
of
the
the
most
common
side,
effects
of
a
head
or
brain
injury
is
violent
action.
So
how
does
that
get
contemplated
into
the
care
of
that
patient
and
the
protection
of
those
providing
that
care?
I
The
flow
of
information
needs
to
be
considered.
Some
of
the
old
hospitals
literally
had
plastic
vacuum
tubes,
where
you
put
something
in
put
it
in
the
capsule
and
send
it
through
that
way.
Now,
thankfully,
we
have
computer
but
access
to
computers,
there's
computers
all
throughout
Hospitals.
Now,
how
do
we
make
sure
that
that
very
private
sensitive
patient
information
can
be
logged
into
by
Health
Care
Providers
quickly
and
efficiently,
but
remain
secure?
So
someone
passing
by
can't
just
get
into
the
computer
and
find
out
personal
information
all
of
these
levels?
I
All
of
these
considerations
need
to
be
taken
into
consideration.
The
Calgary
Cancer
Center
has
some
incredible
technology,
including
hallways
for
robotic
equipment
to
go
up
and
down
the
hallways
unmanned.
Well,
that
was
never
even
contemplated
contemplated
even
10
years
ago,
so
that
consideration,
particularly
in
the
Edmonton
South
Campus,
is
do
we
have
a
need
for
robotic
care.
Some
of
the
the
new
hospital
beds
are
very
large,
very
heavy
and
have
robotic
mechanical
assist
to
help
them
go
through.
I
Some
of
them
may
or
may
not
be
autonomous
and
be
able
to
drive
themselves
that
changes
the
size,
shape
and
scope
of
the
hallway,
and
in
fact
the
Calgary
Cancer
Center
has
separate
hallways
for
the
general
public
and
people
visiting
patients
separated
from
patient
and
and
Health
Care
staff
in
their
hallways.
So
that
impacts,
design
and
ability.
That's
just
a
scratching
the
surface
on
complexity
and
why
those
considerations
need
to
be
made
prior
to
start
building.
You
don't
just
build
another
hallway
going
through
it
going
oh
yeah.
D
K
You
very
much
okay,
so
getting
back
then
to
albertans
would
like
to
know
at
least
that
estimated
date
of
when
they
can
expect
this
project
to
be
completed
and
you're
well
aware
of
the
last
admin.
The
last
hospital
that
was
built
in
Edmonton
was
1988..
It's
been
a
long
time.
It's
been
a
long
time,
there's
a
lot
of
pressure
on
the
existing
infrastructure
and
services.
So
this
is
why,
at
least
like
I
mean
I
appreciate
the
the
the
questions
from
Member,
Allard
and
and
they're
important.
K
Don't
get
me
wrong,
but
it's
it's
really
important
that
that
at
least
we
have
an
estimated
date.
Like
I
mean
when
you,
when
you
come
up
with
a
project,
you
gotta
have
a
plan
for
when
you
plan
to
finish
that
project.
So.
A
I
And
I
appreciate
member
loyal,
you're
you're,
incredible
perception
into
this
and
and
getting
to
the
point
of
what
the
people
in
Edmonton
want.
I
So
I
will
just
provide
a
few
things
in
context
as
I
reply
to
that
one
is,
while
there
hasn't
been
a
new
hospital,
there
have
been
multiple
Healthcare
facilities,
as
well
as
a
change
in
response
to
that
kind
of
care,
Continuing
Care
being
one
that
we've
we've
already
discussed
and
then
we'll
get
into
again,
where
we're
at
now
is
the
consider
how
best
to
meet
those
continuing
and
growing
needs
of
edmontonians
in
in
this
health
care
in
this
Healthcare
facility.
So
the
question
of
what
should
Edmonton
South
Hospital
be?
What
should
it
look
like?
K
But
if
I
may
Minister
that's
been
addressed
in
that
clinical
plan
that
has
already
been
submitted
to
to
Alberta
infrastructure
and
Alberta
Health
and.
I
And
that's
why,
at
the
functional
plan
not
being
fully
accepted,
is
some
of
those
new
facilities
haven't
been
fully
considered?
The
contemplation
of
of
what
may
or
may
not
occur
in
the
future
for
Strathcona,
which
could
be
concurrent
to
the
building
that
I've
been
to
the
South
as
they're
they're
working
on
that?
How
does
that
impact
that
so
again,
where
are
we
going
with
Healthcare?
Are
we
going
to
be
focused
on
ICU
as
a
pandemic,
but.
K
Minister,
if
I
may
interrupt
you
through
the
chair
of
course,
is
just
that.
I
I
completely
understand
that
you
know
there's
other
facilities,
there's
the
contemplation
of
now
the
salary
and
them
being
a
standalone
hospital
and
all
that
I
get
it.
But
you
can't
wait
on
all
those
things
in
order
to
move
forward
with
this
plan,
to
get
it
done
when,
when
edmontonians
and
albertans
need
this
Hospital
desperately.
So
how
do
you
propose
to
address
that
particular
issue
and
move
forward
and
get
this
done.
F
I
I
actually
do
respect
The,
Honorable
member's
enthusiasm
and
concern
about
this
I'm,
not
knocking
that,
on
the
other
hand,
he's
now
asking
a
health
question
which
is
beyond
the
scope
of
this
debate
and
again
I
completely
respect
the
members
desire
to
get
an
answer.
I
just
think
he's
asking
at
the
wrong
place.
B
Okay,
Emily
Carson
to
the
point
of
order.
J
Thank
you,
Mr
chair
at
this
point.
I,
don't
see
a
point
of
order,
I
think
that
there's
been
quite
a
latitude
of
questioning.
That's
come
through
I
think
that
the
the
conversation
has
been
good
so
far,
and
and
it
really
comes
back
to
the
price
tags
that
we
see
attached
to
the
capital
plans
that
we're
discussing
here
today,
so
I
think
it
is
fully
relevant
and
looking
forward
to
your
rules.
Thank
you.
F
B
I
believe
the
questioning
has
been
very
relevant
to
the
work
that
infrastructure
is
doing
alongside
the
minutes,
Health
minister,
and
able
to
identify
a
way
that
it
is
a
health
question
and
when
it
is
an
infrastructure
planning
question
so
I
I
do
believe
that
we
can
continue
on
recognizing
that
we
are
in
estimates
for
the
ministry
of
infrastructure
and
identifying
items
within
their
business
plans
and
within
their
estimates,
so
MLA
Loyola
you
may
proceed.
Thank
you.
Please.
I
So
I
I
will
bring
the
Full
Construction
expertise
of
this
ministry
to
bear
on
this
question
and
I
will
just
say
this
is
that,
as
the
chair
is
noted,
it
is
up
to
health
to
consider
all
of
these
these
factions
and
tell
us
exactly
what
we're
building
once
we
have
that,
then
I
can
establish
timelines
at
this
point
that
has
not
been
accepted.
That's
not
been
finalized,
so,
while
I
can
conjecture.
K
I
I
Once
we
have
that
finalized
by
health,
then
we
can
start
attaching
timelines
for
consideration
for
planning
and
design
and
then
construction.
Again,
as
I
have
said,
we
have
the
two
most
recent
experiences
in
Alberta's.
History
is
the
finishing
of
Grand
Prairie
Hospital,
which
the
member
from
Grand
Prairie
was
talking
about
and
the
Calgary
Cancer
Center.
I
Those
are
two
case,
studies
that
have
set
that
time
frame
from
the
beginning
of
design
to
the
end
of
construction
somewhere
between
six
years
and
and
14
years,
and
that's
that's
where
it
makes
it
very,
very
challenging,
because
the
the
impact
of
not
having
the
completed
design
before
you
make.
Those
estimates
has
a
negative
impact
on
that
time
frame.
K
Okay,
I
appreciate
your
your
answers
on
this
Minister.
As
you
know,
it's
a
passion
of
mine,
yes,
I
am
going
to
pass
it
on
to
member
Carson
who'd
like
to
ask
a
question
about
his
own
constituency
at
this
point.
Can
I.
J
Well,
thank
you,
member
and
thank
you,
chair
and
I.
Just
thought
of
something
as
the
previous
member
from
the
government
brought
up
a
school
potentially
being
built
in
one
year
and
I
am
interested
to
see
where
that
may
have
happened,
but
it
just
it
reminded
me
that
a
couple
years
ago
there
was
an
announcement
for
a
school
in
the
constituency,
a
Catholic
School,
and
that
was
I
believe
two
years
ago,
and
now
it
looks
like
it's
projected
to
be
open
in
26
27.
J
J
I
You
might
need
a
little
bit
a
little
bit
of
time
for
that,
in
my
recollection,
most
of
the
funding
for
schools
would
be
in
the
education
budget,
so
the
details
might
be
there,
although
we
are
tasked
with
construction.
So
so
that's
what
my
Ministry
is
telling
me
so,
the
again
similar
to
healthcare
facility,
school
facilities
are
governed
by.
J
J
Okay.
How
about
do
you
keep
track
of
of
what
schools
have
been
opened
and
like
how
that
affects
on
on
your
side
of
things.
J
Sure-
and
so
you
know
from
from
the
list
that
I've
received
from
the
Edmonton
Public
School
Board
of
Representatives,
we
saw
about
19,
funded
and
built
under
our
government,
and
a
few
of
them
opened
like
all
the
way
up
to
2022
those
funding
or
that
funding
would
have
come
from
the
previous
government
and
so
I'm,
just
hoping
you
could
let
us
know
in
Edmonton
specifically
and
if
you
have
the
bigger
across
the
province.
That
would
be
great.
J
If
you
need
to
table
this
information,
that's
fair
as
well,
but
how
many
projects
your
government
has
funded
and
built
in
Edmonton
regarding
schools,
okay,.
M
J
We
get
that
information.
That
was
the
majority
of
my
questions.
I
can
ask
you
a
couple
more
here,
though,
unless
you
have
some
more
sure.
Finally,
maybe
a
bigger
discussion
here,
but
just
looking
on
page
78
of
the
infrastructure
business
plan
under
capital
investment,
some
quite
large
discrepancies
under
Capital
Construction
line.
J
You
know,
looking
at
1.688
billion,
I
believe
budget
2022-23
compared
to
what
the
forecast
now
is,
so
the
updated
numbers
of
1.274
billion
dollars
or
so
what
is?
Why
is
there
such
a
large
discrepancy?
There.
I
While
my
ministers
get
to
that
question
because
I
want
to
be
careful
of
time,
so
school
projects
total,
we
have
some
of
those
from
budget
2023
design
funding
is
20..
That's
across
the
whole
Province
School
planning
projects
is
additional
14
and.
B
B
E
You
very
much
I
was
kind
of
on
the
educational
side
to
it
is
I
know
in
the
the
last
budget.
Wainwright
got
a
approved
for
design
funding,
and
so
I
was
just
curious.
Do
you?
Does
the
ministry
get
involved
in
the
design
of
schools,
or
is
that
up
to
the
school
board
I'm?
Just
not
like
what
involvement
do
you
have
in
that
part.
I
In
my
understanding,
I
will
ask
my
staff
to
comment
to
that,
but
at
this
point
in
time,
infrastructure
provides
parameters
on
the
sides
of
schools,
there's
different
sizes
for
different
communities.
I
So
that
may
also
impact
that
the
particular
design
on
that
site
if
a
site
is
triangularly
shaped
instead
of
rectangular
or
if
it's
up
against
a
natural
barrier
like
a
forest
or
a
river
or
something
of
that
nature.
That
could
impact
that
how
it
intersects
with
adjacent
roadways
and
servicing,
where
fire
fire
hydrants,
are
in
terms
of
that
kind
of
stuff.
So
most
of
that
design
is
done
by
the
private
sector
in
response
to
a
request
for
proposal
by
the
ministry.
Okay,.
E
Great
I,
just
that's
that's
good,
to
know
the
three
minutes
we
got
left
but
I
just
wanted
to.
You
know
we're
all
talking
about
building
new
stuff
and
and
that's
always
exciting
and
and
everyone
wants
to
see
a
new
thing,
but
you
got
to
maintain
what
you
got
and
I
know
you're
familiar
with
that,
but
so
on
page
76
of
the
business
plan
just
about
400
million
dollars
been
committed
to
Capital
maintenance
and
renewal.
I
Great
question:
thank
you,
member,
for
that.
That's
that's
also
been
an
emphasis
of
of
the
of
the
government
to
make
sure
that
we
we
finish
well
and
make
sure
we
maintain
the
the
capital
assets
that
we
have
to
make
sure
their
life
is
as
long
and
healthy
for
use
as
possible.
I
So
existing
Capital
assets
continue
to
be
a
high
priority.
Under
the
CMR
line
line
item
in
the
budget,
significant
Investments
have
been
made
and
allocate
894.5
million
dollars
over
the
next
three
years
to
to
this
endeavor
317
million
for
government-owned
facilities,
529.4
million
for
health
facilities
and
48.1
million
for
school
facilities.
This
excludes
an
additional
299.5
million
that
resides
in
education's
three-year
budget
for
school
maintenance
funding
paid
directly
to
school
boards
for
their
internal
priorities.
I
I
Are
and
I
can
add
some
specific
names,
so
I
I
didn't
look
at
those
two,
so
I
can
do
that.
Some
of
those
projects
being
undertaken
right
now
are
the
sir
Frederick
W
Hotel
building,
which
is
abatement
and
system.
I
Ups
upgrades
Devin,
analytical
labs
and
offices,
heating,
Distribution,
Systems
replacement,
Fort,
McMurray,
Courthouse
air
handling
unit
replacement,
that's
anticipated
to
be
completed
at
the
end
of
August
2025
Grand,
Prairie,
Northern,
Addiction,
Center,
Chiller
and
control
replacement,
October
24
completion,
Calgary
The,
Fish,
Hatchery
and
rearing
station
building
motor
control
system
replacement
for
December
2023
completion.
So
lots
of
projects
ongoing
there
making
sure
that
we
extend
the
lifetime
of
those
those
facilities
and.
I
B
Thank
you.
Everyone
I
apologize
for
the
interruption,
but
I
must
advise
the
committee
that
the
time
allotted
for
consideration
of
the
ministry's
estimates
has
concluded.
Honorable
estimates
consideration
of
this
committee
for
the
2023-2024
fiscal
year,
I
want
to
thank
everyone
for
their
participation,
and
this
meeting
is
adjourned.