►
Description
Legislative Assembly of Alberta
A
A
B
B
Consideration
the
estimates
of
the
ministry
of
Treasury
board
and
finance
for
the
fiscal
year
ending
March
31st
2024
I'd,
ask
that
we
go
around
the
table
and
have
members
introduce
themselves
for
the
record
Minister
when
we
get
to
you,
please
introduce
the
officials
who
are
joining
you
at
the
table.
My
name
is
David
Hansen
I'm,
the
MLA
for
Bonneville
Cold,
Lake,
St
Paul
and
the
chair
of
this
committee.
We
will
begin
starting
on
my
right.
A
B
You
I'd
like
to
note
the
following
substitutions
for
the
record
member
DOC
for
honorable
member
fian
as
acting
Deputy
chair
a
few
housekeeping
items
to
address
before
we
turn
to
the
business
at
hand.
Please
note
that
the
microphones
are
operated
by
Hansard
staff
committee.
Proceedings
are
live
streamed
on
the
internet
and
broadcast
on
Alberta
assembly
TV.
The
audio
and
video
stream
and
transcripts
of
meetings
can
be
accessed
via
the
Legislative
Assembly
website.
Members
participating
remotely
are
encouraged
to
turn
your
cameras
on
while
speaking
and
mute.
B
B
B
I
would
note
that
the
standing
committee
on
resource
stewardship
has
already
completed
three
hours
of
debate
in
this
respect,
as
we
enter
our
fourth
hour
of
debate,
I
will
remind
everyone
that
the
speaking
rotation
for
these
meetings
is
provided
understanding
order,
59.01-6,
and
we
are
now
at
the
point
in
the
rotation
where
speaking
times
are
limited
to
a
maximum
of
five
minutes
for
both
the
member
and
the
ministry.
These
speaking
times
may
be
combined
for
a
maximum
of
10
minutes.
B
Please
remember
to
advise
the
chair
at
the
beginning
of
your
rotation,
if
you
wish
you
to
combine
your
time
with
the
ministers.
One
final
note:
please
remember
that
discussion
should
flow
through
the
chair
at
all
times,
regardless
of
whether
or
not
speaking
times
are
combined.
If
members
have
any
questions
regarding
speaking
times
or
the
rotation,
please
feel
free
to
send
an
email
or
message
to
the
committee
clerk
about
the
process.
With
the
concurrence
of
the
committee,
I
will
call
a
five-minute
break
near
the
midpoint
of
the
meeting.
However,
the
three-hour
clock
will
continue
to
run.
B
Does
anyone
oppose
taking
a
break
yeah,
seeing
none?
We
will
make
that
announcement
at
the
time
members
when
we
adjourn
this
afternoon.
We
had
just
completed
an
exchange
between
the
official
opposition
caucus
and
the
minister.
As
such,
we
will
now
invite
the
government
caucus
to
proceed
with
a
10-minute
block
back
and
forth
with
the
ministry.
Yes,
please
I'm
sure,
you're.
Okay,
that's
acceptable.
G
Thank
you
so
much
so
I
just
want
to
continue
where
we
left
off
in
the
last
session
and
I'll.
Just
refer
you
to
page
82
of
the
fiscal
plan,
talking
about
fuel
tax
relief
and-
and
maybe
the
minister
can
just
remind
everyone
out
there
in
TV
Land
of
the
total
savings
for
Alberta
drivers
on
that
particular
relief
program.
But
also,
perhaps
the
minister
can
remind
everyone
around
the
the
program
is
slated
to
end
in
June
or
to
change
in
June.
G
H
Great
well
chair
through
you,
I'd
like
to
thank
the
member
for
those
those
good
questions.
I'll
talk
a
little
bit
about
the
fuel
tax
relief
program,
fuel
tax
suspension
program.
This
was
a
program
brought
in
in
the
spring
of
2022,
when
Energy
prices
start
to
start
started
to
rise
very
significantly
in
in
households,
and
businesses
started
to
to
really
feel
the
pressure
of
those
prices
and
Mr
chair.
H
We
brought
in
the
fuel
tax
suspension
program
and-
and
we
initially
brought
it
in
on
an
annual
basis
for
one
year
and
the
program
effectively
on
an
annualized
basis.
If
it's
in
place
all
year
provides
albertans
a
little
bit
of
businesses,
fuel
tax
relief
amounting
to
close
to
1.3
billion
dollars.
So
it's
very,
very
significant.
H
In
2223,
the
forecast
is
that
it
will
provide
almost
1.2
billion
dollars
of
relief
for
Alberta
motorists
again
taking
an
already
very
competitive
business
environment
here
in
Alberta
and
really
supercharging.
It
certainly
for
any
of
those
directly
that
deal
in
the
transportation
sector,
but
also
providing
real
relief
for
Alberta
households
right
across
the
province.
It
also
I
should
note,
has
has
provided
relief
for
school
boards.
It's
provided
relief
for
non-profits.
It's
really
provided
a
relief
right
across
Society.
H
As
the
member
pointed
out.
We
do
have
a
full
suspension
of
that
tax
in
place
until
June
30th,
but
the
program
isn't
going
to
end.
Then
the
program
is
going
to
continue
it.
It
will
continue
in
region
perpetuity
and
it
will
function
in
a
way
whenever
WTI
prices,
West
Texas
intermediate
oil
prices,
hit
80
dollars
a
barrel.
H
The
fuel
tax
will
begin
to
be
suspended
and
it
will
be
fully
suspended
at
90
dollars
a
barrel
that
oil
price
will
be
evaluated
quarterly
just
ahead
of
every
quarter,
and
that
evaluation
will
ultimately
dictate
the
level
of
fuel
tax
that
will
be
on
for
the
quarter.
Following
again,
it's
a
very
significant
affordability
measure
on
an
annualized
basis,
1.3
billion
dollars,
and
the
really
good
part
about
this
measure.
H
Is
this:
we're
providing
real
and
genuine
tax
relief
for
albertans
at
the
same
time,
we're
not
undermining
our
fiscal
stability,
because
every
time
Energy
prices
get
to
the
point
where
we
can
suspend
the
fuel
tax,
our
income
from
non-renewable
resource
revenues
or
royalty
income.
More
than
displaces
the
fuel
tax
that
we
otherwise
would
have
collected
so
Bond
rating
agencies
have
not
had
anything
negative
to
say
about
our
fuel
tax
suspension
program.
H
There
are
certainly
our
chief
Economist
and
her
team
expect
that
inflation
will
begin
to
ease
in
2023
and
2024
over
the
course
of
the
fiscal
plan
leveling
off
at
just
over
two
percent
and
staying
there,
and
so
again,
if
our
projections
would
suggest
that
inflation
pressure
will
start
to
ease
in
the
upcoming
year,
perhaps
towards
the
back
half
of
2023,
and
that's
one
reason
why
our
government
took
very
significant
affordability
measures
over
the
last
eight
months,
because
now
is
the
time.
There's:
affordability,
pressure
in
Alberta
households.
G
H
Sure
I'm
happy
chair
to
talk
about
some
measures,
broadly,
that
are
supporting
Alberta's,
Youth
and
I.
I,
really
believe
they
bear
repeating
I'm
going
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
just
again
remind
the
committee,
what
we're
doing
for
post-secondary
students
I'll
start
there
and
I'll
kind
of
work
through
if
that's
acceptable,
we're
reducing
the
student
loan
interest
rates
down
to
Prime
and
from
both
prime
plus
1
and
prime
plus
2,
depending
on
whether
the
rates
were
floating
or
fixed.
We're
extending
the
student
loan
grace
period
following
graduation
from
six
months
to
one
year.
H
H
We
really
want
to
ensure
that
every
child
in
Alberta
that
needs
a
home
is
not
going
to
be
prohibited
from
finding
that
home
for
financial
reasons,
we're
also
providing
additional
support
for
workers
in
our
social
services
sector.
I
talked
about
that
this
morning,
increasing
wages
by
10
percent.
That's
been
a
sector
that
needed
a
pay
increase.
Quite
frankly,
I
heard
stories
in
my
constituency
around
workers
who
simply
were
unable
having
trouble
making
ends
meet,
so
this
10
increase
is
certainly
going
to
provide
some
relief.
H
The
the
other
thing
I
should
add
is.
We
are
also
providing,
of
course,
direct
support
to
Alberta
families,
Alberta
seniors
and
those
disabled,
those
most
vulnerable
amongst
us
on
the
Ace
Program,
particularly-
and
this
will
again
ensure
that
in
many
individuals
who
are
on
a
fixed
income
or
who
are
really
facing
a
challenge,
meeting
the
end
of
the
month
will
receive
additional
support
with
six
100
payments.
G
Through
through
the
chair
to
the
minister,
perhaps
you
could
at
the
bottom
of
page
84
under
Children's
Services.
Perhaps
we
could
talk
about
the
indexing
of
the
benefit
and
the
impact
that's
going
to
have
on
the
budget
overall
and
who,
what
families
are
the
the
recipients
and
how
this
benefits,
helping
them.
H
So
chair
I
want
to
thank
the
member
for
that
specific
question
of
payments
to
families
that
are
eligible
for
the
child
and
family
benefit.
Payments
will
be
increasing
by
six
percent
in
2023,
beginning
in
January
2023,
which
again
will
reflects
the
inflation
rate
of
the
Year
previous,
of
course,
in
the
future.
With
that
program
now
being
indexed
to
inflation.
Thank.
B
I
Thank
you
thank
you,
Mr
chair
and
thanks
to
the
minister
and
for
the
all
the
officials
for
joining
us
in
the
second
half
of
our
time
here
today.
We'll
measure
this
in
half
like
soccer
I,
think
Ted
lasso
is
so
debuting
right
away
here.
So
we'll
make
a
we'll
make
soccer
reference
for
the
afternoon
as
opposed
to
hockey.
I
I
want
to
start
with
page
52
of
the
fiscal
plan
that
concerns
forecasts
and
projections.
So
there's
I
think
it's
fair
to
say
that
there's,
a
combination
of
Art
and
Science
with
projections
and
I
think
that's
a
fair
comment.
However,
that's
why
we
have
the
private
sector
to
help
us
out
in,
and
this
is
their
job
to
know
what
the
economy
is
going
to
do
and
because
they
stand
to
make
or
lose
a
lot
of
money
off
of
being
able
to
hit
those
targets.
I
I
I
And
then,
when
we
move
on
to
the
employment
benchmark,
we
see
the
same
kind
of
dynamic,
Happening
Here.
We
see
an
average
of
all
private
forecasts
at
1.3
percent
for
2023
1.2
for
percentage
change
of
employment
on
the
private
sector.
That's
what
they
think
is
going
on
the
big
Banks
and
the
forecasting
agencies,
and
then
we
see
the
Goa
in
2023
outpacing,
the
average
of
all
a
private
forecasts
and
indeed
outpacing
the
highest
private
sector,
forecast
scenario
by
0.5
in
2024.
I
So
is
it
that
the
Goa
knows
that
the
private
sector
doesn't
about
these
forecasts,
because
there's
a
pretty
big
Delta
I,
don't
think
we're
nitpicking
here
when
we're
looking
at
like
0.5
or
more
than
a
point,
and
especially
when
things
like
employment
benchmarks
are
being
more
than
than
doubled.
So
what's
what's
driving
that
big
difference.
H
H
We
really
believe
that
Alberta
is
poised
well
to
to
handle
those
headwinds
better
than
any
other
Province,
and
so
we
tested
these
assumptions
with
the
chief
economists
from
all
the
major
Banks.
That's
a
bit
of
an
annual
tradition,
and
and
this
year
we
did
it
in
person
again
and
I
can
say
that
while
there
was
good
discussion
and
debate,
the
chief
economists
from
all
the
major
Banks
supported
the
assertions
and
assumptions
that
we
were
making
in
budget
23
around
GDP
growth
around
Alberta's
resiliency
in
in
the
face
of
economic
headwinds.
H
And
so
maybe
my
last
comment
before
I
call
on
Catherine
will
be
this
with
respect
to
employment
growth.
We
are
expecting.
You
know
very
material
employment
growth
over
the
next
couple
of
years,
but
we're
expecting
even
higher
net
in
migration
and
population
growth
and
as
a
result
of
that,
we're
expecting
the
unemployment
rate
to
rise
slightly,
even
in
the
face
of
significant
employment
growth.
But
Catherine
would
you
like
care
to
come
to
the
mic
and
just
share
with
the
committee
some
of
the
process
that
we
go
through
sure.
L
So
my
name
is
Catherine
Rothrock
I'm,
the
chief
Economist
here
at
Alberta,
Treasury
Board
of
Finance
and
my
team.
We
do
all
of
the
economic
projections
and
we
project
all
the
major
Revenue
sources
for
government
and
fiscal
planning,
and
so,
as
the
minister
mentioned,
we
do
have
an
excellent
track
record
when
it
comes
to
forecasting
Alberta's
economy.
L
So,
as
the
minister
mentioned,
we
do
have
quite
a
bit
of
momentum
in
the
economy
coming
into
this
period
of
what
we
consider
and
we
have
we've
acknowledged
in
our
fiscal
plan,
on
pages
30,
to
33
some
of
the
risks
that
we
see
this
year.
Given
some
of
the
uncertainties,
the
the
the
rapid
Rising
interest
rates,
for
example,
and
what
we
think
is
is
is
going
to
be
facing
businesses
and
households
this
year,
and
so
we
have
certainly
taken
in
some
of
those
risks
into
account
in
our
forecast.
L
We
do
see,
as
the
minister
mentioned
quite
a
bit
of
momentum
coming
into
this
period
of
volatility
for
the
Albert
economy.
So
last
year
was
was
an
excellent
year.
We
had
very
strong
growth
in
incomes
and,
in
fact,
the
reference
to
nominal
GDP
and
what
we're
forecasting
is
quite
important.
So
the
banks
are
forecasting
that
we're
seeing
positive
nominal
GDP
growth,
Works,
actually
expecting
nominal
GDP
growth
to
decline
slightly
and
that's
reflected
in
our
overall
Revenue
projections
for
the
year
and
so
given
what
we're
seeing
in
terms
of
momentum.
L
In
fact,
we
just
saw
a
big
announcement
by
McCain
their
their
make,
making
a
600
million
dollar
investment
in
the
province.
We
do
see
some
of
those
some
of
that
momentum
coming
through
in
terms
of
where
we
compare
to
the
private
sector
and
the
minister
reference,
for
example,
our
employment
forecast,
even
in
the
first
couple
of
months
of
the
year,
given
the
data
that
we've
seen,
we
don't
actually
have
to
add
any
more
jobs
this
year
to
meet
our
forecasts
for
employment
and
so
we're
actually
quite
comfortable
with
where
we're
sitting
from
an
employment
perspective.
L
In
terms
of
where
we're
at
in
unemployment
and
things
like
that,
we
are,
we
are
tracking
higher
than
the
private
sector,
and
that
is
because
we
see
a
lot
more
people
coming
into
the
province.
We
expect
to
see
more
movement
into
the
labor
force,
and
so
we're
actually
expecting
our
unemployment
rate
to
go
up
a
little
bit.
Even
though
we
see
job
gains,
and
so
generally
speaking,
I
think
we,
we
do
have
a
balanced
approach
in
our
in
our
forecast.
L
That
reflects
quite
a
bit
of
the
momentum
that
we
saw
building
in
the
economy
last
year,
but
also
some
of
the
risks
that
that
we're
seeing
and
we've
referenced.
Those
particularly
with
the
global
economy.
We've
been
fairly
conservative
in
our
assumptions
around
Canadian
growth,
U.S
growth,
General
Global
growth
this
year,
and
so
you
know
the
volatility
that
we're
seeing
in
markets
right
now,
and
some
of
the
uncertainty
are
some
of
the
things
that
that
we
were.
You
know
not
necessarily
anticipating
a
specific.
I
I
It
seems
to
me
that
that
too
is
quite
bullish,
given
supply
chain
and
other
cost
and
other
challenges
for
the
sector.
I'm
I'm
very
curious,
though,
as
to
why
that
one
is
so
far
outstripping
the
the
average
of
the
private
sector
forecast
and
another
question
I'll
just
put
quickly
to
the
minister,
and
he
can
we
can
get
to
this
in
the
next
blog-
is
around
pgd2.
I
There's
a
reference
to
some
of
the
actions
that
have
been
taken
around
insurance,
so
I'm
just
wondering
when
the
option
to
pay
premiums
through
installment
starts.
Did
that
start
on
the
January
26th
or
when
the
announcement
was
made,
where
if
it
was
indeed
part
of
that,
was
it
at
some
other
time.
Thank.
B
E
You
Mr
chair
and
thank
you
Minister
for
being
with
us
here
today
in
the
committee
and
I
appreciate
your
efforts
been
done
in
this
ministry.
Securing
the
future
of
well
better
in
my
Calgary
East
constituents
are
interested
to
know
more
about
the
affordability
action
plan
here
and
on
page
nine
of
the
fiscal
plan
mentions
the
indexing
of
personal
income
taxes
to
inflation,
which
is
at
another
measure
being
taken
by
this
government
to
support
albertans
during
the
affordability
crisis
and
how
much
will
an
Alberton
and
their
family
save
thanks
to
this
support.
H
All
right,
that's
that's
a
great
question.
Firstly,
indexing
again,
our
personal
tax
system
is
very
significant
at
a
time
of
high
inflation
and
we're
capturing,
whether
it's
our
social
programs
or
whether
it's
our
income
tax
system,
we're
capturing
the
period
of
high
inflation
in
this
indexing
and
and
I
really
believe,
that's
critically
important.
Overall,
the
tax
savings
are
approximately
300
million
for
the
2324,
and
that
goes
up
to
about
650
a
million
in
the
mid-year
and
just
under
a
billion
dollars
by
year.
H
Three,
so
it's
material
and
again
it's
it's
so
material
now,
because
inflation
rates
are
high.
That's
why
it
is
so
material,
but
in
terms
of
how
does
this
boil
down
to
an
average
Albert,
which
I
think
is
what
your
question
was:
a
typical
albertan
single
Albert
earning
Thirty
forty
five
thousand
dollars
a
year
would
save
approximately
163
dollars
in
taxes
in
2023..
E
Thanks
Minister
for
the
answer
and
talk
about
challenges
challenges
some
Calgary's
constituents
tell
me
about
their
rising
or
auto
insurance
rates
and
moving
over
to
page
82
of
the
physical
plane
and
taking
action
on
insurance.
Our
government
announced
a
pause
on
private
passenger
vehicle
insurance
for
the
rest
of
20
20
23
and
to
provide
a
payment
option
for
consumers
and,
despite
our
government,
making
legislative
changes
to
improve
our
Province,
auto
insurance
system,
albertans
are
seeing
premium
increases
and
please
the
minister
provide
us
with
some
background
on
the
need
for
our
rate
post.
H
H
A
a
couple
of
things
we
are
right
now
in
every
household
is
being
challenged
with
affordability,
issues
and
again
we're
seeing
inflation
at
the
grocery
store
at
the
at
the
gas
pumps.
Certainly
when
albertans
go
to
make
their
renew
their
mortgage
and
make
their
mortgage
payment
with
these
higher
interest
rates,
costs
are
going
up,
and
so
we've
also
taken
a
look
at
automobile
insurance
costs
and
rates.
H
There
was
just
a
a
number
of
pieces
to
the
bill,
41
effort,
all
that
to
say
our
actuaries
in
the
insurance
Industries
actuaries
projected
that
Bill
41's
measures
would
bring
down
the
cost
of
automobile
insurance
premiums
by
a
hundred
and
twenty
dollars
per
year
on
average
from
what
they
would
have
otherwise
been
now
remember.
There
was
a
big
cost
in
the
system
and
what
has
been
encouraging
is
since
Bill
41
was
passed,
we've
seen
a
real
leveling
of
insurance
premiums.
Broadly
now
we
have
a
competitive
market.
H
Now
we
also
in
January,
asked
the
rate
board
to
pause.
Any
rate
premium
rate
increases
just
pause.
Those
rate
increases
until
the
end
of
this
year.
That
would
give
the
government
some
some
more
time
to
work
with
the
industry
and
other
stakeholders
to
determine,
if
there's
anything,
additional
that
could
be
done,
maybe
from
a
regulatory
standpoint
product
offering
standpoint
that
would
provide
consumers
additional
relief
at
a
time
when
they're
really
pressured,
and
so
that
directive
was
provided
in
January.
H
There
were
a
few
rate
increases
that
had
been
made
prior
to
our
directive
that
hadn't
yet
hit
the
books.
We've
seen
a
couple
of
those
hit,
the
books
here,
I
think
very
recently,
and
we'll
probably
see
a
couple
more
before
the
dust
settles.
But
again,
the
directive
to
the
rate
board
is
not
to
improve
any
increases.
They
will
abide
by
that
directive
and
other
than
the
few
that
have
been
made.
They
will
effectively.
E
H
They're,
this
the
they're,
not
there's
no
thievery
involved,
except
to
other
Alberta
Insurance
consumers,
because
the
vehicles
are
taken,
there's
an
insurance
claim
made
and
then
those
vehicles
are
either
disposed
of
or
sold
in
some
other
method,
maybe
taken
apart
and
sold
for
parts
or
moved
offshore.
So
there
are
there's
some
measures
that
we're
looking
at
right
now
to
reduce
fraud,
because
we
know
fraud
adds
some
cost
in
the
system.
That's
one
example:.
E
B
K
B
K
Doctor
appreciate
the
opportunity
to
ask
questions
to
The
Honorable
Minister
of
Finance
and
treasury
board
I
met
as
a
MLA
with
members
of
Alberta
canola
yesterday
at
a
function,
and
one
of
the
things
that
came
up
relates
directly
to
their
concerns
and
concerns.
We've
been
talking
about
with
respect
to
High
Cost
of
insurance
and
I
know
it
on
your
business
plan,
sir,
that
page
145
first
line
you
talk
about
leading
governments,
fiscal
planning,
creating
an
environment
that
attracts
investment
in
job
creators,
removing
barriers
to
economic
expansion
and
diversification
and
what
the
comments?
K
What
comments
were
made
by
Alberta
canola
producers
yesterday,
were
directly
related
to
that,
because
they
were
really
concerned
about
the
prohibitive
and
unaffordable
cost
of
insurance
for
a
particularly
new
class
one
drivers.
Now
there
was
significant
uptake
of
the
Thousand
sponsors
so
that
Rockford
foreign
training
applications
and
for
benefits
there.
K
So
I'm
wondering
first
of
all,
if
indeed
your
ministry
is
collaborating
with
the
minister
of
transportation
to
remove
these
barriers
and
take
a
look
at
how
indeed,
the
rating
system
can
be
changed,
so
that
these
class
one
drivers
are
classified
as
a
less
costly,
insurable
driver
so
that
they
can
actually
be
hired
by
companies
that
move
our
goods
and
products
in
Alberta,
such
as
Alberta
canola
producers.
So
that's
one
element
and,
of
course,
right
across
the
board.
K
There's
many
many
operators
who
are
carrying
passengers
and
cargo,
whether
it
be
large
transport
trucks
or
small
bus
operators
throughout
the
province
privately
scheduled
bus
operators
non-profits
even
who
operate
small
handy
buses
are
all
talking
about
the
high
cost
of
insurance
being
very,
very
difficult
for
their
them
to
continue
operating
and
I'm.
Wondering
earlier
in
your
mandate.
You
you
brought
in
the
topic
or
the
the
the
and
you
promote
it
heavily
this
concept
of
self-insurance
I'm,
wondering
because
of
the
high
cost
of
insurance.
K
H
What
were
the
actuals
with
respect
to
aimco
Investment
Management
costs,
and
so
we
have
those
847
million
dollars
so
just
wanted
to
read
those
into
the
record,
but
with
respect
to
the
insurance
question,
appreciate
the
member
raising
this,
because
this
is
an
issue
right
across
the
province
right
across
sectors,
and
we
we
absolutely
need
to
work
together
to
find
a
solution.
We've
been
working
with
the
insurance
industry
for
some
time
around
solutions
for
well,
let's
say
inexperienced:
drivers,
new
drivers.
We
have
a
shortage
of
class
one
drivers
in
this
province.
H
In
some
areas,
the
lack
of
drivers
is
holding
economic
growth
back,
I
can
say
that's
the
case
in
my
region,
and
we
have
to
find
a
way
to
safely
get
more
drivers
up
and
and
going
so
there's
a
number
of
things
that
we're
doing.
I
I
think
the
member
alluded
to
our
driving
back
to
work
Grant,
which
would
provide
some
support
for
new
drivers
to
get
their
mail
training.
H
Firstly,
firstly
overall
in
our
Trucking
industry
in
Alberta,
it's
an
industry,
that's
marked
by
you,
know
a
high
level
of
safety
and
a
lot
of
professional
drivers.
That's
number
one
and
I
want
to
make
that
known,
but
given
the
fact
that
again,
certainly
insurance
companies
are
not
recognizing
based
on
the
data
that
they
see,
they're,
not
recognizing
the
merits
in
reducing
accident
rates,
with
the
Melt
training,
we're
looking
as
a
government
working
with
other
provinces
as
well
at
enhanced
training.
H
Now
we're
not
suggesting
this
would
be
mandatory,
but
it
would
be
optional
for
a
new
budding
truck
drivers.
Individuals
albertans,
who
want
a
career
in
the
transportation
industry
that
they
could
take
further
training
and
the
further
more
comprehensive
training,
We
Believe,
would
result
in
a
lower
risk
profile
and
a
lower
risk
profile
would
result
in
lower
insurance
premiums.
Now
Insurance
broadly,
is
tough
right
now
and
the
trucking
industry
is,
you
know
really
on
the
front
line
of
a
heart
Insurance
market
we've
had
an
insurance
industry
or
Insurance
Market.
H
That's
really
hardened
up
globally,
but
certainly
in
the
North
American
context.
Given
some
of
the
you
know,
losses
that
have
been
experienced
over
the
last
number
of
years
and
of
course,
during
those
times,
insurance
companies
have
to
recapitalize
and
they
do
that
one
way
through
premiums,
that's
what
we're
experiencing
right
now
in
the
industry
and-
and
so
the
trucking
industry
of
course,
is
facing
that
challenge,
along
with
every
other
insurance
consumer
in
one
way
shape
or
another.
H
One
option
that
new
drivers
do
have
is
insurance
through
the
facility
Association
it's
expensive,
but
it's
an
option.
So
if
there
is
a
trucking
company
that
haven't
have
a
new
driver
and
they
need
to
get
insurance
for
that
driver
and
they're
turned
down
by
other
options,
other
providers-
they
can
get
insurance
it'll
be
expensive,
but
they
can
get
insurance
through
the
facility
Association.
H
But
you
know
the
member
alluded
to
self-insurance
and
I
believe
he
was
referring
to
the
fact
that
we
have
enabled
captive
insurance
companies
to
be
domiciled
here
in
Alberta
and
I
have
to
say:
we've
had
great
interest
in
in
captives
here
in
the
province.
We
have
a
few
moving
forward
right
now,
which
is
very
good
news,
but
you
know
what
I
I
encourage
trade
associations,
industry
associations
where
their
members
are
challenged
with
insurance,
particularly
if
they
believe
that
insurance
premiums
are
not
reflective
of
the
risk
in
the
sector.
H
I
encourage
those
associations
to
you
know,
work
to
understand
whether
a
captive
might
be
an
option
for
them.
Captives
require
significant
capitalization
captives
are
not.
You
know
an
inconsequential
entity
to
establish,
but
I
believe
that
in
some
cases
a
captive
insurance
company
May
provide
a
solution.
K
Thank
you.
I'll
continue
with
a
couple
of
more
questions
if
I
may
and
I'm,
knowing
that
the
driver
training
is
something
that
you
just
mentioned
is
an
important
issue
for
operators
of
Transportation
companies.
Just
yesterday,
School
Bus
operators
and
their
associations
were
asking
for
a
shorter
training
periods
from
shorter
than
the
current
five
weeks
trading.
K
That
they're
now
required
to
go
in
an
effort
to
attract
more
bus
drivers
to
the
school
bus,
driving
industry
and
I'm
wondering
if,
indeed,
knowing
that
a
request
for
policy
change
and
training,
shorter
training
periods,
what
what
insurance
costs
affect
water
insurance
industry
members
telling
your
ministry
in
reaction
to
this.
If
you
had
time
to
to
hear
about
it
as
to
what
would
these
Insurance
costs
be
affected?
How
would
the
insurance
costs
be
affected?
H
The
information
that
we've
seen
to
date
with
respect
to
Mel
training
would
indicate
that
the
Melt
training
has
not
resulted
in
a
measurable
Improvement
or
reduction
in
accidents
and,
ultimately,
it's
a
reduction
in
claims
that
will
ultimately
drive
down
costs
and
result
in
lower
premiums
and
that's
why
right
now,
there's
work
being
undertaken
to
understand
a
more
comprehensive
training
program.
It
would
be
voluntarily
voluntary,
of
course,
so
that
new
drivers
could
participate
in
that
kind
of
training
program
and
perhaps
experience
a
reduction
in
their
insurance
costs.
H
I
I
do
want
to
say
again,
certainly
in
our
heavy
transport
industry
in
Alberta.
Broadly,
certainly
in
our
you
know,
education,
Transportation
sector,
we
do
have
a
very
good
track
record,
there's
additional
risk
with
new
entrants,
and
particularly
on
the
in
with
our
heavy
Transportation
sector,
there's
additional
risk
with
new
entrants.
But
overall
we've
had
a
good
track
record
and-
and
you
know,
I-
think
of
our
school
bus
drivers
historically
and
and
again,
I.
Think
many
of
us,
probably
in
this
room
or
the
bus
for
something
close
to
12
years
in
our.
B
E
Thank
you,
Mr
Chu
and
I
will
start
where
I
left.
My
question
is
there
on
page
84
of
the
physical
plane,
we
can
see
that
the
targeted
funding
for
football
team
measures
is
expected
to
decline
from
two
queen
two
billion
in
2023
2024
to
just
under
1.5
billion
in
2024
and
25.,
before
increasing
again
to
1.8
billion
in
2025
and
2026..
H
Sure,
chair
I'm,
happy
to
provide
a
bit
of
clarity
as
we
take
a
look
at
you
know
the
affordability
measure
differential
as
the
member
noted
in
2324.
It
totals
2.25
billion
dollars.
We've
talked
about
what
is
included
in
this
upcoming
year
and
that
begins
to
come
down
in
24
25.
The
the
reason
for
the
reduction
in
2425
is
the
fact
that,
based
on
our
Energy
prices,
we
are
expecting
that
the
fuel
tax
suspension
program
will
not
be
in
play.
H
We're
expecting
oil
prices
below
80
and
if
we're
wrong,
of
course,
and
if
oil
prices
are
are
higher
than
the
fuel
tax
suspension
will
be
in
play.
That's
the
good
news
about
that
program,
but
based
on
our
projections,
we're
not
expecting
it
to
be
going
forward.
The
direct
affordability
payments,
of
course,
will
be
ending
in
the
upcoming
year.
23-24
there's
a
reason
for
that.
H
Now
one
measure
that
we're
reporting
here
is
the
indexation
of
our
both
our
social
programs
and
our
personal
income
tax
system,
and
one
thing
I
want
to
be
clear:
I
want
to
be
I,
don't
want
to
be
disingenuous
with
albertans,
because
in
2019
we
committed
that
when
we
had
our
fiscal
house
in
order,
we
would
re-index
any
programs
that
were
paused
and
our
personal
tax
system.
That's
why
we're
doing
it
number
one
we're
fulfilling
a
commitment,
but
the
reality
is.
H
This
is
a
time
of
great
affordability,
Challenge
and
that's
why
we're
including
that
measure
on
this
schedule,
because
it
will
provide
very
tangible
relief
from
A
system
that
wasn't
indexed,
and
so
that's
the
reason
why
we
we
move
from
1.5
billion
to
1.8
billion
in
affordability
measures
in
the
out
year
in
the
out
year.
There's
additional
benefit
from
re-indexing
indexing,
our
personal
tax
system
and
also
additional
benefit
in
our
social
program
of
affordability,
support.
H
The
answer
is
yes,
we
anticipate,
as
you
know,
inflation
rates
drop.
There
will
be
less
rationale
for
the
Alberta
Government
to
to
be
supporting
albertans,
certainly
directly,
but
it
but
like
I
I
had
mentioned
earlier.
We
some
of
these
programs
will
be
permanent.
I've
talked
about
the
fuel
tax
suspension
program.
It
will
be
a
permanent
feature
here
in
the
province.
H
Chair
I
would
love
to
answer
that
question.
Such
an
important
question
and
and
I'm
always
encouraged
when
I
hear
the
sentiment
around
fiscal
responsibility
communicated
by
so
many
albertans
I
hear
it
in
in
my
region
of
Grand
Prairie
Wapiti,
my
constituency
I
hear
it
all
the
time.
I
hear
it
all
the
time
and
I'm
really
pleased
to
say
that
we've
in
this
last
fiscal
year
paid
off
over
14
billion
dollars
of
debt,
every
dollar
of
debt,
that
matured
during
the
fiscal
year
was
paid
off,
and
here's
some
good
news
around
that
number
one.
H
So
there
is
great
benefit.
The
other
benefit
in
paying
down
debt
is
this:
it
creates
fiscal
room.
You
know
one
can't
anticipate
when
we're
going
to
bump
into
another
economic
shock.
We
we
see
what's
happening
on
Capital
markets
today,
as
as
we
see
the
failure
of
you
know
a
couple
of
regional
banks
in
the
U.S.
We
don't
expect
that
this
is
going
to
be.
You
know,
Financial
system
contagion.
However,
we
need
to
anticipate
that
down
the
road.
H
At
some
point,
there
will
be
another
economic
challenge
or
economic
shock
not
dissimilar
to
what
we
faced
in
2020
and
what
we
needed
in
2020.
We
needed
fiscal
room,
so
we
could
deal
with
the
economic
challenge.
Fiscal
challenge.
The
best
way
to
create
fiscal
room
is
to
pay
off
debt
I
believe
right
now,
given
where
we're
at
sir,
the
paying
debt
down
should
be
the
priority
for
the
use
of
any
surplus.
Thank.
H
So
I'm
not
not
sure
I'm
entirely
following
the
question:
the
the
tension
between
the
cost
of
the
programs
and
the
amount
of
debt
we're
going
to
pay
off
the
the
programs.
I
mean
there.
Our
programs
are
a
combination
of
re-indexing,
our
personal
tax
system
and
re-indexing
social
support
programs.
Both
commitments
we
made
in
2019-
and
these
are
commitments
that
we're
delivering
on.
First
and
foremost,
we
also
have
you
know
a
series
of
tax
relief
measures,
as
well
as
some
direct
support
payments.
H
Those
that
investment
in
supporting
albertans
and
reducing
the
tax
burden
on
albertans
will
also
pay
dividends
that
will
help
improve
our
competitiveness.
As
again,
we
reduce
the
tax
burden
on
albertans,
with
the
fuel
tax
suspension,
as
we
ensure
that
albertans
broadly
have
can
hold
on
to
more
of
their
hard-earned
dollars
instead
of
paying
those
in
taxes
and
there's
also
an
economic
benefit
to
that
in
the
province.
So
I'm
probably
missing
your
question
here.
We've
talked
about
the
benefit
of
debt
repayment.
H
E
You
Minister
I,
feel
you've
answered
my
questions
there
and
I
will
let's
move
to
oil
prices,
and
it
is
clear
that
the
recent
surge
in
oil
prices
have
had
hugely
positive
impact
on
Alberta.
It
has
allowed
this
government
not
only
to
run
a
surplus,
but
has
also
allowed
us
to
help
out
albertans
during
the
affordability
crisis,
through
measures
like
posing
the
provincial
fuel
tax
and
given
the
importance
of
energy
prices
in
this
province.
I
You
Minister,
why
don't
we
turn
to
page
71
of
the
fiscal
plan?
I
just
want
to
go
through
some
of
the
revenue
from
other
sources
and
we'll
see
how
far
we
get.
Maybe
I'll
ask
a
couple
of
questions,
because
some
of
them
might
require
some
follow-up
from
officials
or
written
follow-up
later
or
whatever.
The
case
may
be
so
leaving
aside
utter,
although
we
can
get
back
to
it.
Maybe
I
when
I
was
in
government
I
always
just
assumed
that
the
other
Revenue
was
Brian.
I
Looking
at
the
administerial
order
from
December
21st
2022nd
that
sets
the
industrial
carbon
tax
mounts
goes
up
at
65
dollars
in
2023
80
in
24.95
in
2025,
and
then
a
bunch
of
Step
changes
until
section
I,
which
is
170
dollars
per
ton
by
2030
for
the
for
that
carbon
tax.
But
what
I
see
here
in
the
tier
fund
is
that
we
have
a
forecast
of
637
million
for
22.
I
I
We
see
the
amount
going
up
only
very
slightly,
but
the
carbon
tax
is
now
80
per
ton
and
then
in
25
sorry,
I
I
mixed
up
one
of
those
numbers,
but
by
25
we
have
a
300
million
dollars
of
Revenue
in
2025,
for
when
a
carbon
in
the
carbon
tax
for
the
industrial
emitters
is
95
a
ton.
So
I
asked
about
this.
I
asked
officials
about
this
during
the
briefing
and
they
said
it
was
a
function
of
the
carbon
markets
to
which
I
responded.
I
That
makes
sense,
and
so
because,
as
soon
as
you
signal
to
the
markets,
that
the
the
price
is
going
up,
you're
going
to
get
some
Market
activity
happening
in
the
credit
markets
right
and
it's
not
always
going
to
redown
to
the
benefit
of
the
crown
and
be
that
as
it
may.
That's
fine
right,
because
we
understand
that
these
this
industrial
carbon
tax
is
designed
to
you
know
in
Center
early
action.
I
This
has
the
happy
consequence
of
keeping
the
feds
out
of
meddling
in
our
business,
which
is
as
something
I'm
all
for,
but
also
it
might
allow
us
to
better
regulate,
expand
or
exercise
some
Market
surveillance
on
the
credit
Market,
and
it
seems
to
me
that
that's
the
right
job
for
TBF
as
the
amount
becomes
so
much
more
material
on
the
operator's
balance
sheet
as
that
that
carbon
tax
goes
up
to
170
dollars
per
ton
by
2030,
as
this
ministerial
order
does
so.
Has
there
been
internal
conversation
about
this?
I
Is
there
any
kind
of
review?
Does
tpf
see
a
role
for
themselves
and
their
own
expertise
in
terms
of
understanding?
How
fine,
how
financial
instruments
work
already
regulating
the
Securities
regulator?
Any
thoughts
on
that,
because
you
know
what
a
housing
of
the
revenue
is
a
that's
a
third
of
a
billion
dollars.
It's
a
lot
of
money.
H
Yeah
it
it's
it's
significant
and
right
now,
realistically,
it's
a
little
hard
to
predict
Behavior
out
three
years
out,
as
we
see
Rising
carbon
prices.
You
know
I.
Think
chair
of
the
member
noted
that,
where
right
now
we're
in
and
trying
to
anticipate
Behavior,
we
know
that
in
some
cases
of
emissions
will
be
dropping
generally
and
that's
one
reason
why
we
expect
that
we'll
be
collecting
less
to
your
to
your
income,
even
as
the
price
increases.
H
We
also
know
that
there
will
be
carbon
Trading
and
and-
and
we
then,
as
a
result
of
that,
the
Alberta
government's
not
going
to
be
collecting
on
the
levy.
But
all
of
this
is
you
know
our
the
best
estimate
at
this
point
time
and
one
can't
perfectly
predict
Behavior
into
the
future.
One
thing
with
respect
to
you
know
additional
analysis,
we're
we're
starting
that
work
right
now.
I
So
I'll
just
go
on
to
the
like
kind
of
go
up.
The
other
Revenue
Minister
I've
got
such
fundraising.
Donations
and
gifts
and
I
I
know
that
one
of
the
things
in
the
University
sector
that
when
there
were
a
number
of
sort
of
the
implementing
the
McKinnon
panel
recommendations
on
increasing
on
the
calculation
of
how
much
we
were
spending
that
this
was
a
real.
This
is
a
real
bug,
bear
for
them.
I
There's
a
bird
there's
that
all
they
did
not
like
that
their
donations
were
essentially
counted
against
their
operating
expense.
So
if
you
got
a
lot
of
had
a
really
good
donation
or
fundraising
here,
got
a
big
gift
as
uofl
oftentimes
did,
that
that
was
counted
against
their
expenditures
when
they
turned
around
and
spun
it
out
into
bursaries
or
scholarships
or
whatever
the
case
may
be
so
number
one.
Have
we
fixed
that
and
two
this
these
numbers
are
fairly
flat.
H
Sure
share
good
questions.
The
answer
to
question
number
one
is:
yes:
have
we
fixed
it?
Yes,
we
we
have
we
this.
This
was
some
time
ago.
We
recognized
that
a
hard
expense
ceiling
for
these
institutions
simply
did
not
result
in
the
outcomes
that
I
think
anybody
looked
to
achieve,
and
so
and
even
with
our
fiscal
rules,
we
have
provided
an
exemption,
an
exception
for
dedicated
revenue,
and
this
includes
our
post-secondary
institutions.
We
want
to
encourage
them
to
be
entrepreneurial,
to
be
out
there.
Fundraising.
H
Many
of
them
participate
in
research,
some
of
that's
funded,
federally
and
from
other
sources,
and
we
don't
want
to.
We
want
to
encourage
it,
not
penalize
it,
and
so
that's
been
our
approach
and-
and
that's
one
reason
why
we've
seen
you
know
in
terms
of
the
budget
and
actuals-
are
post-secondary
costs
Rising
because
we've
not
not
held
them,
we've
not
constrained
them
in.
In
that
way.
Now,
with
respect
to
fees,
these
are
I
mean
institutions
ultimately
provide
us
with
their
projections.
So
that's
how
we
put
together
these
forecasts.
H
I
So
I'll
just
move
up
in
the
bit
of
time.
I
have
here.
We
have
health
and
School
Board
season.
Those
are
Amalgamated
together,
I'm
wondering
if
there
is
a
breakdown
of
those
somewhere
within
TBF
and
if
that
can
be
provided
for
it
to
us
in
some
kind
of
written
follow-up
or
or
later
on
in
the
evening.
Maybe
if
that
is
available,
because
they
do
increase
significantly
and
I'm
wondering
how
much
of
that
is
School
Board
fees,
because
some
of
that
can
be
because
of
enrollment.
I
H
Be
great
sure,
yeah
chair,
we'll
we'll
be
happy
to
provide
that
break
down
that
detail.
I
I
should
note
just
to
add
to
my
previous
answer.
Of
course
we
are
limiting
tuition
increases
about
to
two
percent,
and
so
that's
also
one
reason
why
we're
seeing
a
bit
of
a
flattening
of
that
Revenue
line
once
we
get
into
the
out
year,
especially
well,.
I
H
Yes,
a
Northwest
upgrader
figures
in
pretty
significantly
into
the
apmc
results,
as
we
know,
something
that
I
I
should
note
is
that
it
would
have
been
about
two
years
ago,
during
the
summer
of
2020
during
energy
price
crash,
we
as
a
government
actually
renegotiated
the
government's
position
on
apmc.
We
restructured
our
debt
renegotiated
with
our
counterparties
and
really
strengthened
the
Alberta
government's
position.
It
was
a
it
was
an
improvement
of
Net
Present
Value,
future
cash
flows
to
the
tune
of
about
two
billion
dollars.
B
E
You
Mr
Jim
I,
will
Circle
back
to
my
question
and
we
were
at
and
it
is
quite
clear
that
there
isn't
a
surge
in
wheel.
Prices
has
had
hugely
positive
impact
for
on
Alberta.
It
has
allowed
this
government
not
only
to
run
us
Surplus,
but
has
also
allowed
us
to
help
out
albertus
during
the
affordability
crisis
through
masses
like
posing
the
provincial
fuel
tax.
Given
the
importance
of
energy
prices
in
this
province
and
a
few
questions
are
and
what
are
the
energy
price
assumptions
for
the
third
quarter
of
2022
2023.
H
Sure,
chair
good
question,
I've
been
checking.
You
know
that
the
member
talked
about
this
Resurgence
and
energy
prices.
I
was
hoping.
Wti'd
went
up,
10
bucks
this
afternoon,
but
it
it
hasn't
yet,
of
course,
we're
seeing
the
volatility
in
commodity
markets
today
in
a
big
way.
Our
third
quarter
forecasts
are
422-23
are,
are
90
dollars
and
fifty
cents
a
barrel
for
WTI,
and
that's
that's
down
slightly
from
mid-year
mid-year.
We
were
at
91.50
and,
of
course,
that's
reflected
in
our
new
Revenue
projections.
H
H
Well,
if
you
ask
me
today
as
we
as
we
again
watch
the
volatility
in
commodity
markets,
you
know
we're
just
reminded
that
our
Revenue
structure
in
Alberta
has
some
volatility,
has
significant
volatility
and
and
so
we're
really
paying
attention.
That's
one
reason
why
we
take
quite
a
Prudential
approach
in
our
forecasting
in
our
in
our
estimates.
Certainly
at
the
time
we,
you
know,
finalized
our
assumptions
that
ultimately
Drive
our
Revenue
projections.
H
We
were
between
four
and
a
half
and
seven
dollars
lower
than
the
private
sector
average
forecast
for
WTI
prices
and
and
again
I
I,
believe
we've
taken
quite
a
conservative
approach
to
the
differential
being
just
under
we're
projecting
just
under
20
dollars
that
differential
has
been
trading.
You
know
in
that
15
16
dollar
range
recently
and
with
Trans
Mountain
pipeline
coming
on
that
expensive
pipeline
coming
on
likely
this
fall,
it
will
again
provide
an
additional
efficiencies
and
and
additional
options
to
Alberta
producers
likely.
H
You
know
even
potentially
narrowing
that
differential
even
further,
so
I
think
we've.
You
know
on
the
differential
we've
really
taken
quite
a
cautious
approach,
that's
reflected
in
today's
numbers
and
again
we
talk
about
kind
of
the
third
stool
in
this
big.
You
know
economic
assumption,
Revenue
Matrix,
and
that
is
our
currency.
H
H
Well,
look
we
we've
just
presented
a
table
presented
a
fiscal
plan,
a
preparations
bill
on
the
floor
of
the
legislature.
That's
our
plan
for
the
upcoming
year
in
terms
of
our
our
spending
plan,
delivering
government
programs,
funding,
government
programs
and
and
that
plan
is
in
place.
I
talked
about
the
importance
of
creating
fiscal
room.
H
Unexpectedly,
we
will
have
to
in
fact
continue
to
deliver
government
programs,
that's
the
reality,
and
if
we
have
fiscal
room
that
allows
us
to
deliver
those
programs
and
to
obtain
the
capital
at
as
lower
cost
as
possible.
I
have
to
say
that
right
now,
we've
had
a
couple
of
credit
upgrades
here
in
this
last
year,
we've
not
had
a
credit
upgrade
in
Alberta
prior
to
this
year.
I
think
the
most
recent
one
prior
was
2001.,
so
these
credit
upgrades
are
actually
lagging
with
what
the
market
tells
us.
H
What
Alberta's
credit
rating
should
really
be
our
we're
borrowing,
and
certainly
over
the
last
number
of
months.
At
times,
our
our
cost
of
capital
as
a
province
has
been
cheaper
than
that
of
Ontario's
and
Ontario's
kind
of
The
Benchmark
amongst
provinces.
So
that's
good
news
and
that
bodes
well
for
albertans
in
the
future.
E
C
Awesome
man,
thank
you.
Thank
you
very
much
Mr
chair
and
thank
you
very
much
Minister
and
the
rest
of
your
staff
for
coming
out
here
today.
Let's
kind
of
chat
with
us
for
these
six
hours,
so
I
just
want
to
kind
of
continue
on
to
questioning
a
little
bit
with
my
good
friend,
Emily
Singh
was
talking
about
in
terms
of
provincial
resiliency.
C
In
terms
of
you
know
the
revenue,
streams
and
diversification,
so
I
guess
I
just
want
to
kick
start
off.
My
line
of
questioning
here
in
this
segment
is
on
page.
Eight
of
the
fiscal
plan
shows
how
diversification
in
Alberta
economy
is
is
further,
boosting
the
advantage
that
we
have
here
in
the
province.
So
I
guess
I
was
just
hoping
Minister.
If
you
can
maybe
elaborate
on
how
the
province
is
actually
diversifying
the
economy,
so
that
we're
not
so
dependent
upon
a
non-renewable
resource
Revenue
to
ensure
that
the
books
are
balanced.
H
A
chair
through
you
to
the
member,
appreciate
the
question
and
and
I'm
not
surprised
by
the
question
from
that
member
who's
concerned,
about
legitimately
about
diversifying
Alberta's
economy
and
ensuring
that
we
have
a
diversified,
Revenue
structure
as
well
in
the
province.
So
again,
we've
talked
earlier
about
what
the
action
we
took
in
2019
to
broadly
improve
the
competitiveness
of
Alberta's
business
environment.
That's
you
know
that
was
step
number
one
and
and
again
it's
I
continue
to
believe
and
I'll
again
for
the
record
note
that
I
believe
government
is
well
served.
H
The
people
are
well-served.
Businesses
well
served
when
governments
take
a
broad
approach,
because
governments
will
often
get
it
wrong
if
they
choose
only
a
boutique
approach.
We
all
you
have
to
do
is
drive
across
this
province
and
you
will
find
you
know,
plays
Investments
that
were
only
there
because
of
government
incentive.
H
We've
taken
creating
a
very
competitive
business
environment
as
well
as
in
sectors
where
we
compete
globally
with
other
jurisdictions
that
have
additional
incentives,
but
sectors
we
know
were
naturally
competitive
in
by
offering
additional
incentives
we're
seeing
great
diversification
in
this
economy,
and
we
all
we
have
to
do
is
take
a
look
at
De,
Havilland
air
choosing,
Alberta
to
set
their
to
bring
their
water
bomb
or
manufacturing
plant.
To
and
I
can
tell
you
this.
We
met
with
the
executives
from
De
Havilland
very
recently.
H
This
is
only
their
first
step,
they're
expecting
to
they're
hoping
they're
planning
on
to
onshore
their
supply
chain.
Where,
right
here
in
Alberta
and
the
good
news
is
they
did
that
without
one
dollar
of
additional
taxpayer
funding
or
support,
they
did
it
because
of
our
incredibly
competitive
business
environment,
including
access
to
Young,
educated
albertans,
who
they
know
can
have
a
great
career.
H
The
the
McCain's
announcement
was
another
example
of
further
diversification
in
our
economy
and
all
of
that,
along
with
financial
services,
I
talked
of
the
importance
of
financial
services
and
their
great
contribution
to
corporate
tax
revenues.
All
of
that
is
creating
a
broader
base
for
Alberta
Government
revenues.
B
I
So
what
is
behind
that?
Why
is
it
that
you
know
I
can't
turn
on
a
television
and
watch
a
hockey
game
or
anything
else
without
being
advertised
to
about
sports
betting,
every
25
seconds
and
yet
and
yet
I
don't
see
any
additional
Revenue
to
the
crown
for
this.
So
why?
And
when
are
we
going
to
see
that
Revenue,
because,
clearly,
from
all
by
all
accounts,
we
do
have
a
sports
betting
happening.
H
Hi
chair
I'd,
like
to
thank
the
member
for
the
question,
because
I
too
have
observed
the
we're
inundated
with
you
know:
sports
betting
ads.
In
fact,
I've
heard
concerns
from
constituents
around.
You
know
the
density
and
the
frequency
of
that
those
advertisements,
and
one
thing
I
would
note
that.
Certainly
many
many
of
those
advertisements
are
in
fact
advocating
for
right
now.
H
What
we
would
say
is
you
know,
gray,
Channel
organizations,
organizations
that
aren't
legal
to
be
active
here
in
the
province
and
that's
a
concern
of
ours,
because
when
it
comes
to
gaming,
my
number
one
concern
is
social
responsibility.
I
think
that's
the
number
one
concern
we
all
probably
have
people
in
our
spear
who've
got
caught
up
with
a
gambling
addiction
and
it's
tragic.
It's
tragic
in
our
families
and
in
our
communities
and
so
number
one
social
responsibility
is
critical.
Now
we
went
forward
with
play
Alberta.
H
We
know
that
there's
going
to
be
sports,
betting
and
there's
going
to
be
online
gambling
and-
and
so
we
went
forward
with
with
play
Alberta
and
play
Alberta-
is-
is
aglc's
kind
of
Step
One
in
providing
albertans
with
what
could
be
characterized
as
a
safe
venue
for
online
gambling
and
sports
betting
and
there's
two
advantages.
One.
Is
they
build
in
social
responsibility
to
play?
Alberta?
H
That's,
that's
critical
and
and
number
two
the
profits
stay
in
Alberta
so
that
we
can
use
those
revenues
to
deal
with
some
of
the
costs
that
ultimately
come
from
aberrant
behavior
in
this
area.
Now
aglc
has
come
forward
with
a
plan
to
move
to
step
two
and
step
three
and
and
further
liberalize
this
effectively
activity
in
this
space,
and
so
step
two
will
be
including
our
existing
Casino
operators
in
again
offering
them
the
ability
to
participate
in
in
sports
betting
and
in
step.
Three
would
would
be
an
even
broader
approach.
H
H
That
has
been
here
and
we
think
that
it
would
be
very
natural
that
that
they
would
have
an
opportunity
to
benefit
from
the
sports
betting
play
and
again
many
of
those
casinos
are
First
Nations,
casinos
and
they're
very
interested
in
working
in
this
space,
but
we've
Candace
mcattle
here
from
aglc
and
and
Candace
I-
don't
want
to
put
you
on
the
spot,
but
I'm
gonna
put
you
on
the
spot.
Would
you
be
interested
in
making
a
few
comments
around
aglc's
plan
to
move
forward.
M
Hello,
Candace
Machado
chief
executive
officer
for
hlc.
Thank
you
for
the
question.
Minister
I
think
you
addressed
it
quite
well.
We
have
a
staged
approach
to
offering
Sports
betting
in
the
province
of
Alberta
and
we're
currently
in
request
for
proposal
stage
in
negotiating
on
the
retail
expansion,
with
a
mobile
extension,
as
noted
by
the
minister.
M
Certainly
I'll
highlight,
along
with
what
the
minister
said.
We
do
continue
to
see
growth
in
play,
Alberta
and
the
offerings
through
play,
Alberta
where
the
money
played
in
Alberta
stays
in
Alberta,
and
that
is
reflected
in
the
budget
estimates.
The
net
revenue
that
we
expect
to
generate
through
play
Alberta
is
close
to
150
million
dollars
annually
and
again
we
offer
some
of
the
most
robust
social
responsibility
measures
on
the
site,
so
I
don't
have
anything
further
to
add.
I
Can
I
just
ask
a
follow-up
Mr
chair
while
we
have
folks
from
aglc
so
I'm,
seeing
in
TBF
estimates
the
1.6
million
in
gaming,
research
and
I
I
I?
Think
the
minister
and
I
agree
that
I
100
support
the
sort
of
harm
reduction
approach
to
gambling,
because
I
really
worry
about
it
too.
We
all
have
folks
that
we
kind
of
know
of
that
for
whom
it's
become
problematic.
I
H
Chair
I'm
going
to
call
on
Candace
to
make
a
few
comments.
If,
if,
if
Candace
has
anything
else
to
say,
From
aglc's
perspective
around
again
social
responsibility,
but
then
I'm
going
to
actually
turn
to
Mark
person
from
our
department,
who
also
is
quite
active
in
in
terms
of
additional
research
in
this
area,
which
is
also
critical.
Is
that
acceptable.
B
M
Thank
you
again:
Candace
machito,
chief
executive
officer
for
Alberta
gaming,
liquor
and
cannabis.
We
certainly
continue
to
look
at
our
social
responsibility
programs
that
we
offer
through
aglc,
specifically
for
gaming.
We
focus
on
game
sense.
We
also
have
a
self-exclusion
program
and
some
very
good
measures
on
play.
Alberta
from
a
funding
perspective.
Yes,
we've
increased
the
funding,
our
funding
for
the
for
the
budget
year
2324
is
over
11
million
dollars.
M
We
also
continue
to
look
for
ways
to
provide
our
marketing
programs
in
a
way
that
resonates
with
albertans
and
so
again
it's
it's
focusing
on
where
they
are
and
the
best
ways
that
we
can
communicate
our
messaging
and
make
sure
that
folks
who
need
support,
receive
that
support.
We
also
have
representatives
in
every
Casino
facility
that
support
albertans
on
the
floors
when
they
have
the
desire
for
self-exclusion
or
additional
information
to
support
any
any
concerns
that
they
have
along
with
that
I'll
just
highlight.
We
also
offer
a
drink
sense
campaigns.
A
dry.
M
N
My
own
yep
I
am
hi
Mark
person,
assistant,
Deputy,
Minister,
Treasurer,
board
and
finance.
So
we,
our
team
works
with
the
Alberta
gaming
Research
Institute
out
of
the
University
of
Calgary.
We
provide
grant
funding
and
we
work
with
them
in
on
their
strategic
plan
of
priorities
of
what
research
priorities
they
have
for
the
year.
We
also
attend
some
of
their
board
meetings,
as
well
as
their
conferences
to
make
sure
that
we're
aware
and
working
with
aglc
on
making
sure
we
have
the
right
balance.
So
we
work
closely
with
them.
N
It's
a
priority
for
us
because
you
know,
like
you
say
you
watch
a
hockey
game.
You
can
see
all
of
the
Ontario
gaming
sites
and
in
Alberta
we
want
to
make
sure
we
have
a
proactive
approach
going
forward.
So
the
research
side,
the
proactive
approach
that
eglc
is
putting
in
place
and
and
trying
to
have
a
balanced
approach.
So
the
way
I
would
answer
it.
So.
H
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
B
C
C
Thank
you
very
much
Minister,
and
just
to
kind
of
continue
on
some
of
our
questions
that
we're
talking
about
in
the
last
segment.
So
I
was
asking
a
couple
questions
about
diversification,
to
kind
of
create
that
provincial
resiliency.
When
it
comes
to
how
our
province
is,
you
can
manage
whether
these
Financial
storms
and
I
know.
C
But,
however,
on
page
11
or
the
fiscal
plan,
it
does
mention
the
risk
of
recession,
which
I'm
thankful
at
least
there's
acknowledgment
for
it
and
I
mean
that's
the
main
reason
why
we
want
to
diversify
the
economy
or
our
different
income
streams,
make
sure
that
we
don't
go
in
there.
So
I
guess
a
question
for
you
Minister
how
resilient
is
Alberta's
economy
in
the
face
of
this
possibility.
I
mean
I,
know
earlier
you're
talking
about
the
volatility
of
oil
revenues,
but
maybe
this
please
elaborate
a
little
bit
on
that.
H
Well
again,
further
to
my
previous
comments:
I
I
do
believe
it
and
again
this
has
been
checked
with
our
chief
Economist
from
our
from
our
major
Banks
I
I,
do
believe.
Alberta's
economy
is
positioned
well
to
be
resilient
in
the
face
of
headwinds
volatility.
You
know
we're
seeing
a
good
example
of
that
today
and
there's.
There
are
a
couple
reasons
for
that:
we've
talked
about
Alberta's
diversifying
economy
and
the
momentum.
There's
such
a
thing
as
economic
momentum
and
chair.
We
have
economic
momentum
right
now
in
Alberta.
H
Obviously,
if
we
see
energy
price
inflation,
that's
typically
reflected
in
commodity
prices,
broadly
certainly
in
agriculture
products,
we've
seen,
you
know
higher
prices
on
the
forestry
side
as
well
in
all
three
of
those
sectors,
Drive
the
Alberta
economy,
in
a
very
material
way
in
in
different
regions.
So
I
do
believe
because
of
the
momentum
we're
seeing
in
this
in
the
province
broadly,
I've
talked
about
financial
services.
H
Alberta
is
just
becoming
a
magnet
for
a
capacity
in
the
financial
services
sector
right
now,
more
broadly,
within
manufacturing.
We
talk
about
petrochemical
manufacturing,
but
Aerospace,
and
now
even
Agriculture
and
processing
and
Manufacturing.
All
of
those
sectors,
I
believe,
are
seeing
growth
in
that
growth
is
creating
momentum
in
this
economy,
and
that
momentum
is
also
reflected
in
the
fact
that
Canadians
are
moving
here.
That
will
also
provide
some
additional
resiliency
in
the
economy.
C
Oh,
thank
you
for
that.
Minister
and
I
appreciate
you
talking
about
Financial
momentum.
I
know
in
this.
During
the
last
or
this
term
here
I
know,
our
government
has
experienced
a
couple
things
that
the
previous
government
never
has,
and
you
know
one
being
a
balanced
budget
and
the
other
one
being
a
credit
upgrade,
and
so
I
guess
this.
Regarding
those
credit,
upgrades
I
mean
based
upon
the
fiscal
plan
that
you've
put
forth
and,
and
that
you
know,
in
light
of
that
momentum
that
you
talk
about
is
there?
H
C
Excellent
for
that,
and
in
light
of
that,
you
know
that
potential
for
credit
upgrades.
Obviously
we
have
to
be
able
to
see
it
I
notice.
On
page
11.
It
says
it
shows
that
the
total
revenue
is
estimated
70.7
billion
for
the
upcoming
fiscal
year,
which
is
about
5.4
billion
lower
than
the
record
revenue
of
76,
which
was
forecast
earlier
so
Minister.
Are
you
at
all
concerned
about
the
estimated
revenue
for
the
2023-2024
you're
being
lower
than
last
year's
forecast.
H
Chair
I'm,
not
at
all
concerned
that
we're
seeing
in
our
fiscal
plan
a
reduction
in
revenues
because
we
are
projecting
a
you
know:
very
material
drop
in
WTI
prices,
again
we're
projecting
over
90
dollars
for
the
2223
fiscal
year,
dropping
down
to
79
for
the
upcoming
year
and
we're
also
projecting
quite
a
wide
differential
as
well
for
this
upcoming
year.
So
the
the
fact
that
we're
seeing
well-
let's
call
it
a
bit
of
a
correction
in
an
unrenewable
resource
revenue-
is
not
particularly
alarming.
H
What's
encouraging
broadly,
is
that
over
the
course
of
this
fiscal
plan,
we
see
growing
revenues
on
other
Revenue
lines,
growing
revenues
from
personal
income
taxes
rising
at
about
seven
percent
per
year,
which
is
significant
that
reflects
the
wage
growth
that
we
expect
we'll
see
in
the
province
that
reflects
the
you
know,
additional
employment
opportunities
that
we
believe
are
going
to
be
created
through
the
fiscal
plan.
All
of
that
resulting
in
expanded
fiscal
capacity
and
increase
government
revenues.
H
We
are
also
projecting
corporate
taxes
to
continue
to
grow
again
coming
down
slightly
this
year
coming
off
these
very
high
energy
prices,
but
then
growing.
You
know
in
the
neighborhood
of
five
to
six
percent
over
the
course
of
the
fiscal
plan
and
again
I.
You
know,
I've
talked
about
the
the
fact
that
financial
services
are
typically
in
most
years.
Financial
Services
is
the
sector
that
contributes
the
most
to
corporate
tax
revenue.
H
Financial
services
are
very
sensitive
to
a
corporate
tax
rates
and
to
a
differential
in
corporate
tax
rates,
and
you
know
it's
rational.
It
makes
sense
for
for
firms,
especially
those
in
financial
services,
to
really
look
to
allocate
as
much
of
their
taxable
income
to
the
province
with
the
lowest
corporate
tax
rate
and
I.
Believe
that's
what
we're
seeing
as
we
see
you
know.
Rbc
announced
that
they're
moving
their
Tech
Hub,
where
into
Alberta
that
we
see
Ernst
young
declare
Calgary
as
their
financial
center
of
excellence
for
the
Americas.
H
C
Excellent.
Thank
you
very
much
for
that,
minister.
In
the
last
a
minute
or
two
I
just
want
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
the
Heritage
Alberta
Heritage
savings,
trust
fund
and
I
know.
We've
talked
a
little
bit
about
the
revenue
side
about
decreasing
volatility
with
our
long-term
projections,
we're
talking
I
know.
C
H
Sure
chair
great
question,
I
have
to
say
in
my
pre-budget
consultations
over
the
last
couple
of
years.
The
interest
in
the
Heritage
savings
trust
fund
by
albertans
broadly
has
just
been
off
the
chart.
You
know
I
think
as
as
albertans
have
recognized
that
we're
back
into
Surplus
territory,
all
of
a
sudden
they're
so
interested
in
Saving
for
the
future.
Again
are
we
you
know
so
many
are
interested
in
fiscal
responsibility.
H
As
at
December
31st
2022
the
fund
had
a
market
value
of
18.6
billion
dollars.
Now
I
mean
investment.
Returns
have
been
tough
this
last
year
and
I.
Don't
you
know
if,
if
somebody's
killed,
the
market
I
want
to
know
who
they
are,
because
it's
been
a
really
tough
year
in
you
know,
in
terms
of
investments
in
capital
markets-
and
you
know,
aimco's
returns
have
been
better
than
Benchmark
that
have
been
better
than
the
passive
Benchmark
and
that's
also
important.
B
K
B
B
K
All
right,
thank
you
very
much.
I'll
refer
once
again
to
the
business
plan
and
economic
development
in
rural
Alberta,
with
the
chair's
intelligence
and
I
wanted
to
know.
If,
indeed,
the
minister
can
point
to
a
single
line
item
in
the
budget,
which
is
dedicated
specifically
to
the
facilitation
by
the
province
of
Alberta
and
Recreation,
of
some
form
of
regularly
scheduled
bus
service
network
in
Alberta,
because
many
many
communities
are
suffering
badly.
K
H
Chair
there
is,
it's
called
the
fuel
tax
suspension
program
at
a
direct
line
that
is
going
to
provide
additional
assistance
to
certainly
bus
lines
right
across
the
province.
I've
heard
from
so
many
owners
in
the
transportation
sector
how
what
a
difference,
what
an
impact
that
has
made
to
their
bottom
line
and
I
I,
don't
want
to
soft
code
or
make
light
of
the
challenge
in
relative
with
busing
and
transportation,
because
it's
real,
the
member
I
mean
I
as
I.
H
But
in
terms
of
what
are
we
doing
in
this
budget,
the
fuel
tax
suspension
program
is
a
very
meaningful
measure
to
to
improve
the
competitiveness
of
those
who
will
see
a
need
and
an
opportunity
and
step
into
that
opportunity,
with
perhaps
a
bus
line,
a
short,
a
short
line,
perhaps
maybe
a
larger
service
across
the
province.
I
know
in
in
my
community
the
municipalities
got
together
to
provide
what
they
called
the
County
Connector.
H
So
that
was
effectively
a
bus
line
that
would
provide
bus
service
between
some
of
the
local
towns
into
Grand,
Prairie
and,
and
it
wasn't
without
its
cost.
It
was
at
significant
cost
to
the
municipalities
and
I
have
to
say
the
number
of
times
that
went
past
the
County
Connector
and
there
wasn't
one
person
in
that
bus
as
a
rate
payer
I
I
really
I
already
questioned
its
veracity.
That's
why
I
believe
the
approach
should
largely
be
Market
driven
and
it's
government's
role
to
create
a
very
you
know
the
most
competitive
business
environment
possible.
H
To
wear
where
there's
need
such
is
in
high
level,
where
an
entrepreneur
can
step
in
and
say,
look
I.
Think
I
can
offer
a
solution.
Here,
that's
going
to
come
in
at
a
low
enough
cost
to
attract
interest.
That's
what
we're
looking
to
do
in
the
province,
but
I
appreciate
the
members
concerned
for
Rural,
Alberta
and
and
his
concern
to
ensure
that
the
Royal
Albert
is
connected.
K
Follow
up
if
I
may,
a
minister
through
the
chair.
My
point
in
bringing
up
this
issue
was
the
fact
that
the
market
forces
are
not
satisfying
this
need.
They
do
need
some
leadership
and,
as
you
have
alluded
to
in
the
past,
in
very
many
Industries,
where
government
investment
has
been
required
to
incent
a
development
in
various
different
Industries.
Here's
one
example
clearly
begging
for
some
leadership
and
a
realization
that,
on
its
own,
Market
forces
are
not
replacing
even
on
a
different
business
model.
K
What
Greyhound
provided
beforehand
now
in
2023,
we
shouldn't
have
a
total
lack
of
huge
rural
bus
transportation
for
huge
swaths
of
of
Alberta,
and
that's
what
we've
got
right
now.
We've
got
four
operators
which
operate
limited
number
of
routes
and
there's
huge
swaths
of
over
other
communities,
the
size
of
cameras
on
the
tasks
that
don't
have
bus
service.
K
K
It
may
seem
like
a
small
thing,
but
if
you
are
in
rural
Alberta
and
you
don't
want
to
rely
upon
family
or
friends,
to
get
you
to
a
medical
appointment
to
to
larger
Center,
you
may
well
choose
to
sell
your
house
a
few
years
earlier
and
move
into
the
larger
Center
and
then
vacate
that
smaller
community
and
depopulated
one
step
further.
So
it's
really
it's
important
to
the
health
of
rural
Alberta
that
these
bus
services
be
resurrected
in
some
form.
K
There's
European
models
of
different
kinds,
there's
Co-op
models,
there's
lots
of
different
business
models
that
might
be
applied
in
different
ways,
different
in
different
communities
that
should
be
looked
at
and
I
believe
I.
Think
it's
incumbent
upon
the
Alberta
Government
to
spend
some
money
to
at
least
facilitate
the
discussions
find
out
what
would
be
needed.
What
does
the
business
Community
say?
What
are
elected
officials
saying
also
in
the
Indigenous
Community
as
well,
very,
very
important
to
indigenous
populations
that
they
have
a
rural
bus
transportation
Network
for
Public
Safety?
K
H
If
I
can
respond
again
appreciate
the
members
advocacy
for
Rural
Alberta
message
received
but
again
I'm
the
Minister
of
Finance,
not
the
minister
of
Transportation,
so
I,
you
know
when
I
look
at
at
the
budget
and
fiscal
plan.
The
question
was:
what
are
we
doing
to
encourage
and
facilitate
and
improve
connectedness
in
our
communities,
while
the
fuel
tax
suspension
program
is
something
that's
tangible,
it's
direct
and
what
I
would
suggest
is
that
the
member
have
this
conversation
with.
H
H
H
To
that
chair
just
very
quickly,
we've
just
come
through
a
a
very
a
time
of
great
disruption
and
we're
seeing
businesses
we're
seeing
Transportation
infrastructure
we're
seeing
that
all
kind
of
reset
right
now
and
and
so
I
I
take
the
members
Advocate.
You
know
advocacy
seriously.
We
need
to.
We
need
to
ensure
that
communities
are
connected.
Following
this
time
of
great
disruption,
there's
been
business
loss.
There's
been,
you
know,
businesses
that
have
stopped
operating,
including
those
in
the
Transportation
Center.
B
C
Thank
you
very
much.
Mr
chair
and
Minister
I'd
just
like
to
ask
a
quick
supplemental
regarding
the
last
topic
that
I
finished
off
my
last
block
on
which
was
the
Alberta
Heritage
savings
trust
fund,
hi
Minister,
you
talked
a
little
bit
about
where
the
fund
is
currently
but
I
know.
I,
keep
part
about
the
fiscal
plan.
Moving
forward
is
about
keeping
100
of
the
funds
net
income.
Actually
in
the
fund
not
putting
into
General
Revenue
I,
know,
you've
talked
a
great
deal
about
the
potential.
C
H
Yeah
chair
appreciate
the
question
from
the
member
again.
I
talked
about
the
great
interest
in
the
Heritage
savings
trust
fund
in
my
pre-budget
consultations,
and
you
know
in
terms
of
a
surplus
allocation
number
one
we're
going
to
stop
robbing
the
Heritage
savings
trust
fund
of
its
earnings,
and
we
think
that's
probably
a
good
place
to
start,
and
so
we
have
introduced
legislation
that
will
effectively
accomplish
just
that
right
now.
H
H
That
includes
the
2
billion
that
we've
announced
that
we're
going
to
be
investing
in
the
Heritage
savings
trust
fund
from
the
surplus
of
the
last
two
years.
But
it
also
includes
earnings
or
per
future
periods.
That
will
be
a
material
increase
in
the
balance
of
the
Heritage
savings
trust
fund
and
we're
also
anticipating,
for
you
know,
markets
to
normalize
Capital
markets
to
normalize
and
for
the
aimco
to
be
able
to
continue
to
deliver
strong
results
for
albertans
with
the
Heritage
savings
trust
fund.
H
H
I
asked
my
department
here,
maybe
a
couple
of
months
ago
to
come
forward
with
the
analysis
that
where
would
the
fund
be
at
today
if
every
dollar
that
the
fund
earned
had
been
retained
in
the
fund
without
any
deposits?
Over
and
above
what
were
made
to
the
fund?
What
would
be?
Where
would
we
be
at
and
the
resp?
The
analysis
proved
concluded
that,
instead
of
an
18
billion
dollar
fund,
we
would
have
a
fund
that
would
be
approaching
300
billion
dollars
today
and.
H
A
lifelong
albertan
as
an
albertan
with
children
and
making
out
this
province
their
home
I
regret
that
we
were
not
in
a
position
to
reinvest
those
earnings,
but
that's
what's
encouraging.
Today,
I
I
believe
there's
broad
support
across
the
province
to
reinvest
those
earnings
into
the
fund.
A
300
billion
dollar
fund
would
generate
approximately
20
billion
dollars
a
year
of
investment
earnings
that
would
offset
displace
the
non-renewable
resource
Revenue
that
right
now
we're,
depending
on
in
part,
to
pay
for
operations.
A
D
H
Obviously,
if
we
see
Energy
prices
higher
than
what
we're
projecting,
which
we
believe
are
quite
conservative,
73
dollars
in
the
out
year,
76
in
the
mid-year,
if,
if
we
see
Energy
prices
a
bit
higher
than
that,
of
course,
that
will
facilitate
additional
debt
repayment,
as
that
will
generate
additional
Surplus.
But
the
fact
that
we've
paid
off
14
billion
dollars
again
has
a
great
impact
on
Alberta's
debt.
Servicing
costs.
H
That's
currently
placed
with
you
know
on
average
maturity
time
frame
of
11.7
years,
but
if
we
don't,
if
we're
unable
to
pay
off
debt
as
it
matures,
that
means
we're
going
back
to
Capital
markets
at
a
time
of
higher
Capital
costs
and,
and
that
will
result
in
higher
debt
servicing
costs
I.
You
know
if
I
can
say
one
thing
today:
it's
this
there's
great
benefit
in
in
reducing
our
debt,
as
we
can
achieve.
Surplus
results
in
Alberta.
D
D
1973
to
1983
the
inflation
rate
never
went
below
7.5
percent
it
peaked
out
at
about
14
interest.
Service
costs
were
substantially
higher
than
that
Bank
of
Canada
rate
I,
just
checked,
landed
into
20.
So
the
assumptions
that
what
what
are
the
interest
rate
assumptions
in
terms
of
calculating
those
projected
debt
servicing
costs,
because
there
were
10
years
where,
where
the
average
inflation
rate
was
10
percent,
not
three
or
four
percent,
that
we've
had
these
last
years
and
the
interest
rates
were
higher
even
than
that,
so
so
I'm
really
quite
interested
or
concerned.
I.
D
H
Well,
I
I
believe
that
I
mean
they're
very
consistent.
Given
the
economic
assumptions
we've
made
around
Central
Bank
rates
and
and
and
the
cost
of
capital
I
had
noted
that
our
average
cost
of
capital
for
the
debt
that
we
have
placed
right
now
is
2.78,
so
it's
placed
at
a
very
low
cost
and
effectively.
What
we
have
done
is
we've.
H
As
we've
built
our
fiscal
plan,
we've
determined
based
on
their
anticipated
Surplus,
we've
anticipated
the
amount
of
cash
that
that
Surplus
will
generate
and
from
that
we've
determined
how
much
debt
we
can
pay
off
in
in
the
year
of
surplus
and
we're
expecting
our
debt
to
continue
to
decline,
but
we're
not
going
to
pay
pay
off
all
the
debt.
That's
maturing.
H
So
as
a
result
of
that,
we
are
planning
to
have
to
get
into
Capital
markets
to
some
degree
over
the
course
of
you
know
the
next
three
years,
not
only
to
pay
off
debt-
that's
maturing,
but
also
to,
in
some
cases,
Finance
our
Capital
plan,
which
is
also
requires
cash
and
our
Capital
plan.
Our
annual
cost
of
the
capital
plan
exceeds
the
amortization
that
we're
booking
each
year
and
so
that
then
again
creates
a
cash
requirement
on
the
capital
side
year
over
year.
B
J
J
Of
course,
most
albertans
and
I'm
sure
you
know
Minister
that
Land
Titles
is
currently
several
months
behind
or
has
been
for
at
least
a
couple
of
years,
potentially
several
years
now,
and
so
my
first
question
is:
if
the
minister
has
any
understanding
to
the
value
in
terms
of
economic
impact,
that
that
is
happening,
whether
it's
regarding
corporate
income,
taxes
or
or
anything
else.
If
he's
able
to
provide
any
of
those
figures,.
H
The
chair
appreciate
the
question
and
I
I
think
it
is
a
relevant
question.
I
I
do
we've
not
done
analysis
and
I
I
think
it
would
be
challenging
perhaps
to
do
defensible
analysis
around
the
entire
economic
impact
due
to
the
delay
with
Land
Titles.
But
we
know
this,
there
is
an
impact.
I
I
absolutely
would
acknowledge
that
and
that's
why,
in
last
year's
budget
budget
2022,
we
in
fact
funded
service
Alberta.
H
So
in
this
budget
we
have
again
funded
service
Alberta
for
increased
capacity,
and
on
top
of
that,
we've
provided
a
hundred
million
dollars
in
our
Capital
plan
to
effectively
modernize
our
registry
system,
because
this
is
the
real
answer.
We're
working
with
an
Antiquated
system
right
now
in
Land
Titles
that
has
to
be
corrected,
should
have
been
updated.
You
know
years
ago,
but
again
we're
going
to
do
it.
H
J
H
So
so
chair,
the
answer
is
yes:
we
are
providing
funding
where
there
have
been
effectively
late
charges
and
penalties,
because
somebody
hasn't
received
their
property
tax
notice,
we're
covering
those
costs
and
chair
we're
going
to
have
to
to
provide
a
integral
number.
We
will
it'll
take
us
a
few
minutes.
So
if
the
member
thank.
J
J
I
Thank
you
just
I
want
to
follow
up
on
just
on
behalf
of
my
colleague,
one
of
my
colleagues
Minister
it
sometimes
in
estimates
other
Ministries
say:
oh,
can
you
go
ask
the
Ministry
of
Finance
about
that.
So
this
is
one
of
those
and
it
may
be
that
you
don't
have
the
answer
right
away
and
if
we
can
Endeavor
to
just
clean
up
the
answer
either
between
now
and
an
hour
from
now
or
you
know,
a
written
response.
That
would
be
okay
too.
I
So,
as
far
as
we
can
read
here
on
page
106,
the
capital
plan,
we
have
eight
million
over
three
years
allocated
to
AG
societies,
but
then
on
page
116
it
says
3
million
over
three
years
and
then
on
page
seven
of
the
capital
plan.
It
says
2.5
million
over
three
years
for
a
total
of
7.5
million,
and
sometimes
this
is
because
of
rounding
and
I.
So
if
it's
that,
then
that's
fine,
and
so
this
was
asked
at
the
the
agriculture
estimates.
H
I
H
I
That's
fine,
okay,
so
but
2.5
million
each
year
for
each
year
of
the
fiscal
plan,
and
there
might
be
an
issue
on
one
of
in
one
of
the
places
in
terms
of
Clarity.
So
it
doesn't
look
like
it
though
it
looks
like
we've,
probably
got
the
clarity
that
we
need.
Okay,
good,
so
I
will
go
now
just
to
it's
just
the
section
on
responses
to
the
auditor
general
starts
at
page
166,
so
fiscal
plan
and
it
provides
the
responses.
I
But
I
don't
see
that
those
responses
to
the
auditor
general
here
in
the
fiscal
plan
so
I'm
wondering
if
the
department
did
not
accept
those
recommendations
in
the
end
or
there
was
some
talk
at
the
time
in
terms
of
the
response
to
those
recommendations
in
June
of
2022,
that
there
would
be
some
updates
to
the
business
plans
and
I'm
I'm
and
the
and
the
annual
reports
so
I'm
wondering
if
that's
happening
and
if
there's
any
other
reason
why
we
don't
see
the
Department's
response
to
those
recommendations
here.
So.
I
I
I'm
not
so
there
was
a
report
that
came
out
on
June
29th
2022,
that
found
it
wasn't
always
clear
what
the
4
billion
in
covid-19
spending
in
2021
2020
21
actually
achieved.
They
were.
There
were
some
a
question
around
you
know,
amounts
spent
and
other
generals
always
worried
about
outcomes
and
so
on,
and
at
that
time
he
did
not
issue
a
new
recommendation
to
finance,
but
he
repeated
a
2019
recommendation.
So
was
that
accepted
by
the
department
at
the
time?
And
do
we
not
see
a
response
here?
H
So
so
again,
I
I
mean
there
there's
a
difference
between
a
comment
and
a
recommendation.
I
believe
we
are
have
are
the
comprehensive
recommendations
here.
We've
captured
those
and
we
have
a
response,
but
we
have
Dan
status
wiser
here,
our
controller
with
us
and
Dan.
We
knew
there
would
be
an
opportunity
for
you
today,
I'm
going
to
call
on
Dan
to
provide.
B
D
Thank
you
I'd
like
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
the
debt
to
GDP
and
credit
ratings.
I
noticed
in
the
in
the
fiscal
plan
that
debt
to
GDP
is
at
10.2
percent
declining
yeah,
that's
well
below
the
30
anchor
number
that
was
presented
in
2022
budget.
So
for
the
sake
of
albertans,
really,
is
why
I'm
asking
this?
D
Could
you
could
you
just
talk
about
why
it's
important
that
we
keep
our
net
debt
to
GDP
low
and,
secondly,
we've
seen
multiple
credit
rating
upgrades
as
a
result
of
some
of
that
as
a
result
of
improved
management?
Can
you
explain
again
for
albertans
why
our
government
continues
to
see
credit
rating
upgrades
and
how
that
actually
helps
us.
H
Chair
I
appreciate
obviously
appreciate
that
question
now.
As
you
know,
as
I
think
all
the
members
of
the
committee
know
we
established
fiscal
anchors
shortly
after
we
implemented
our
first
fiscal
plan.
We
established
those
the
fiscal
anchors
at
a
time
when,
due
to
the
pandemic,
due
to
the
massive
energy
price
collapse
and
the
contraction,
the
global
economy,
due
to
the
lack
of
economic
clarity,
we
established
anchors
that
would
guide
our
fiscal
decisions
during
that
difficult
time.
One
of
those
anchors
was
to
maintain
a
relatively
strong
balance
sheet.
H
The
good
news
is
that
we
did
not
exceed
30.
In
fact,
we
we
stayed
well
below
it
and
right
now
we're
projecting
that
within
you
know,
16
days
we're
going
to
have
a
net
debt
to
GDP
ratio
of
approximately
10.2
percent.
That's
by
far
and
away
the
strongest
ratio
of
any
province
in
the
country,
I
believe
Saskatchewan
is
the
next
closest
and
something
north
of
14.
H
So
that's
one
reason
why
we're
going
to
continue
to
monitor
that
ratio
where
you
know
we,
we,
those
fiscal
anchors
that
we
established
back
in
2020,
are
still
in
play
today,
and
the
fact
that
we're
going
into
single
digit
net
debt
to
GDP
in
terms
of
the
ratio
in
future
fiscal
years
is
very
positive.
All
of
that,
of
course,
the
strong
balance
sheet,
the
momentum
we
have
within
the
economy
with
an
economy,
that's
diversifying
at
significant
rates
and
with
the
fiscal
discipline
that
we
brought
to
the
province.
H
D
Thank
you
I
wonder
if
you
can
address
one
other
fiscal
anchor.
We've
talked
about
it
a
lot
in
government
in
the
past
and
that's
the
the
issue
of
per
capita
spending
relative
to
other
jurisdictions.
Just
wonder
if
you
could
make
some
comments
on
that.
Where
are
we
at
in
relation
to
the
other
provinces
in
Canada.
H
You
know
a
major
effort
to
bring
fiscal
responsibility
to
the
province
and
also
embarked
on
program
reform,
and
we
were
part
of
that
at
treasury
board
because
to
Simply,
ultimately,
fund
programs
less
will
result
in
less
output.
But
when
you
reform
the
way
you
deliver
programs,
you
can
deliver
them
more
efficiently
and-
and
so
you
know
a
good
example
of
that
was
our
funding
formula
in
education
that
ultimately
put
more
resources
into
classrooms
and
allowed
Alberta
to
ultimately
align
our
per
capita
spend
on
education
with
that
of
other
provinces.
H
The
good
news
is,
we
established
the
fiscal
anchor
of
aligning
our
cost
of
delivering
government
services
with
the
average
of
Ontario
Quebec
and
British
Columbia,
the
other
large
provinces.
The
good
news
is
this:
fiscal
year
2223
the
year
we're
going
to
be
just
completing.
We
will
have
arrived
at
that
objective.
We
will
have
aligned
our
per
capita
spend
and
I
believe.
That's
important
I
believe
that
Alberta
should
be
able
to
deliver
at
least
as
efficiently
as
the
average
of
Quebec,
Ontario
and
BC,
and
that
takes
you
know
fundamental
program
reform.
H
D
Thank
you
and
just
wonder
if
you
could
explain
something
that
profitably
confuses
a
lot
of
people
but
corporate
income
tax
income
taxes,
you
actually
reduce
the
tax
rate
by
four
percent
and
the
net
result
was
a
greater
amount
of
Revenue
coming
into
the
province.
How
does
that
work?
When
you
reduce
the
taxes
and
as
more
money
comes
in?
Can
you
explain
that
for
people,
but.
H
You
know
again,
our
goal
back
in
2019
was
to
create
a
very
compelling
business
environment.
A
very
you
know,
compelling
and
competitive
business
environment,
one
that
would
attract
investment,
create
opportunity
ultimately
result
in
economic
growth,
economic
diversification,
which
results
in
expanded
fiscal
capacity,
and
that's
what's
been
happening
now.
I
I
will
say
the
higher
energy
prices
this
last
year
contributed
to
our
corporate
tax
revenue.
There's
no
doubt
about
that.
H
Our
energy
companies
were
quite
profitable
and
are
paying
a
significant
amounts
of
corporate
tax,
but
right
now
we're
seeing
growth
right
across
sectors
and
that
growth
is
resulting
in
increased
economic
activity,
fiscal
capacity,
that's
also
contributing
to
hire
corporate
tax
revenue
for
the
province.
We've
talked
about
the
importance
of
the
financial
services
sector
in
corporate
tax
revenue
right
now.
There's
every
reason,
for
you
know
National
companies
to
understand
how
they
can
allocate
more
of
their
taxable
income
to
Alberta,
I
believe
that's
happening,
and
that's
also
resulting
in
increased
corporate
tax
revenues.
H
So
the
whole
concept
is
this:
create
a
bigger
Pie
by
governments
taking
a
smaller
tax
cut
and,
as
we
see
economic
growth,
that
growth,
which
which
results
in
expanded
fiscal
capacity,
will
actually
generate
and
create
more
revenues
for
the
government
at
a
lower
rate
than
it
does.
As
at
a
higher
rate.
D
H
You
know
there
are,
you
know,
a
number
of
variables
that
companies
evaluate
when
they
make
decisions
around,
you
know
deploying
capital
and
where
they
deploy
Capital,
where
they
Place
their
investment.
Corporate
tax
rates
are
are
one
factor
again
of
many
talked
about
the
sensitivity
in
financial
services
to
differential
in
corporate
tax
rates.
I.
We
don't
have
a
specific
number
that
you
know.
We've
not
done
the
analysis
to
work,
to
tease
out
a
specific
number
and
I
think
that
would
be
hard
to
do
and,
and
you
know,
and
and
to
provide
an
integral
number.
H
You
know
just
over
three
billion
dollars
to
six
and
a
half
billion
in
the
current
year
at
eight
percent,
instead
of
three
and
a
three
billion
in
change
at
12
percent,
and
while
we're
see
expecting
a
small
adjustment
this
year,
we're
still
going
to
be
reporting,
5.9
billion
dollars
of
corporate
tax
revenue
at
eight
percent
and
then
climbing
at
about
seven
percent
per
year
throughout
the
fiscal
plan.
Again,
this
approach
is
working
and-
and
it's
about.
I
But
one
question
that
came
out
of
energy
estimates
is
that
the
renewable
energy
program
revenues
officials
were
very
confused
by
my
question
during
a
budget
lockup
of
where
is
where
are
the
revenues
and
people
seem
to
think
there
weren't
any.
That
is
of
course
wrong.
There
are
revenues,
it's
138
million,
cumulatively,
we
learned
an
energy
estimate,
so
I'm
wondering
where
are
those
reflected?
I
This
would
have
been
the
time
for
that.
So
I'm
wondering
did
no
one
go
to
treasury
board
with
a
proposal.
Why
don't
we
see
it
in
this
budget,
and
so
those
are
two
pieces
that
are
kind
of
coming
out
of
energy,
but
are
reflected
in
both
expenditure
and
in
some
of
that
sectoral
approach
that
we
saw
that
we
talked
about
earlier
this
morning.
H
H
With
respect
to
your
second
question
around
additional,
perhaps
incentive
support
for
carbon
capture,
utilization
and
storage,
I
think
a
couple
of
things
number
one
as
a
government
broadly
and
for
years,
and
the
member
would
know
this.
They
were
part
of
this
during
their
term.
This
government's
been
making
you
know,
material
investments
in
carbon
capture
and
storage,
I
think
we're
around
1.8
billion
dollars.
H
Right
now
and
with
tier
funds,
we've
been
setting
some
funds
aside,
I
believe
we're
going
to
be
around
200
million
dollars,
set
aside
for
additional
carbon
capture
utilization
and
storage
investment
in
the
future.
So
we
have
been
leaders
on
that
front,
of
course,
that
and
that's,
irrespective
of
all
the
regulatory
work
and
identifying
carbon
hubs
making
course
space
available,
which
is
also
been
very
significant.
H
Now,
with
respect
to
our
Alberta
incentive
or
petrochemical
incentive
program,
carbon
capture
and
storage
infrastructure
qualifies
for
that
incentive,
which
is
12,
which
is
significant
incentive
and
again
for
petrochemical
projects.
That's
significant
and
that's
been
noted
by
proponents
with
respect
to
other
carbon
capture
and
storage
Investments
and
the
member
identified
the
pathways
effort,
which
is
a
courageous.
H
H
You
know
for
eligible
expenditures.
Albertans
will
be
all
in
on
that
because
of
the
impact
on
royalty
income
right
now.
Energy
TBF
and
the
industry
are
working
together
to
you
know
further.
So
we
can,
you
know,
well
understand
the
relationship
between
our
royalty
structure
and
implicit
support.
We've
we've
also,
you
know
been
clear
that
you
know,
as
as
when
we
complete
that
work,
we'll
look
to
understand
what
more
may
be
required,
where
gaps
may
exist
and
and
what
more
the
Alberta
Government
may
be.
H
H
I
Terms
of
the
inflation
reduction
act
and
that
that
essentially,
that
Gap,
that
people
are
now
telling
us
it
exists,
15,
and
it
really
depends
on
who
you're
talking
to,
but
there
is
one
and
so
I
have
a
couple
of
follow-up
questions
on
that
answer.
Some
of
that
was
very
helpful.
Thank
you.
Minister
I,
just
I
I
want
a
little
bit
of
clarity
around
so
with
this
PDP.
This
is
effectively
a
12
percent,
a
Goa
contribution
who
gets
the
crediting
for
the
environmental
attributes.
I
H
H
Otherwise
would
the
petrochemical
incentive
program
again
is
a
is
a
grant
is
an
incentive
to
encourage
investment
in
petrochemical
projects
here
in
the
province,
including
the
carbon
capture
and
storage
piece,
and
so,
ultimately,
these
companies
will,
as
they
put
up
88
of
their
own
funding
for
that
infrastructure
as
well
they're
going
to
benefit
from
lower
levies
from
what
they
would
otherwise
pay
as
their
carbon
emissions
will
be
lower.
So.
I
H
Well,
chair,
I
I
am
not
going
to
get
caught
up
in
speculating
all
of
the
options
in
the
future,
but
what
I
you
know
what
I
can
say
was
certainty
with
respect
to
the
pathways
up.
Parties
that
and
their
project
that
albertans
will
be
are,
will
be
implicitly
invested
in
that
infrastructure
again
through
the
royalty
structure.
We're
just
working
right
now
to
understand
that
calibration.
It's
important
that
we
know
that
calibration
and
understand
what
more
may
need
to
be
done,
and
we
know
there's
you
know
in
in
the
energy
industry.
I
Yeah,
there's
certainly
A
continuing
ongoing
work
to
be
done
around
methane
abatement
for
sure
I
will
I
turn
things
back.
Then
I
only
have
20
seconds
so
instead
of
I
I
can
do
that
really
Mr
chair
is
this
me?
No
no
you
want
to
hear
me
talk
for
20
seconds.
Is
that
it's
not
the
request
I'm
hearing
very
clearly
from
the
chair.
B
F
Thank
you
chair
once
again
to
the
minister.
Are
you
okay
going
back
and
forth?
Yes,
excellent!
Thank
you.
First,
before
I
begin
we're
hitting
about
five
and
a
half
hours
into
this,
so
I
just
want
to
say
thank
you
for
being
here
and
taking
the
time
as
well
to
all
your
department,
heads
and
staff.
This
is
incredibly
important.
Work
I
know
that
when
I
ran
in
last
election,
this
was
a
a
major
issue.
F
For
me,
I
saw
a
fiscal
train
wreck
headed
on
a
path
that
was
unsustainable
and
I,
was
concerned
about
the
future
of
my
three
boys,
so
I
just
want
to
thank
you
for
all
the
hard
work
you
put
in
this
hasn't
been
easy.
I
know
it's
been
a
lot
of
Ministries
working
together,
but
you
came
up
with
a
plan.
Two
balanced
budgets
I
think
it's
something
to
be
extremely
proud
of,
and
investing
in
the
Heritage
Trust
Fund.
F
That
is
something
I'm,
very
thankful
for,
because
that
speaks
to
the
Future
generations,
and-
and-
and
you
know
it
just
gives
a
lot
of
positivity
back
right
now
to
a
lot
of
the
people
that
I
hear
from
every
day.
In
my
constituency,
but
I
am
going
to
shift
the
conversation
a
little
bit
about
things,
maybe
a
little
bit
outside
of
Alberta's
control
and
when
we
talk
about
fiscal
transfer,
reform
in
your
business
plan
on
page
147,
objective
1.4,
talks
about
advocating
for
fiscal
transfer,
reform
and
and
I
think
this
is
something
incredibly
important.
H
And
absolutely
appreciate
the
question:
this
is
a
question
I
hear
about
you
know
from
my
constituents.
I
think
you
know
that
that
is
a
question.
Albertans
recognize
the
fact
that
we
make
a
net
fiscal
contribution.
You
know
in
the
neighborhood
of
20
billion
dollars
a
year
to
the
rest
of
the
country.
It's
it's
very
significant
done
through.
You
know
a
multiple
of
ways
and
you
know
certainly
through
Canada
pension
plan.
That's
that
is
one
of
the
net
fiscal
transfers
right
now,
but
but
as
well.
H
The
fact
that
we
have
an
outsized
economy
and
we
albertans
earn
more
in
the
province.
We
have
a
young
demographic,
that's
we're
more
highly
employed
in
this
province.
All
of
that,
along
with
our
corporate
fiscal
capacity.
All
of
that
makes
Alberta
an
outsize
contributor
fiscally
nationally
and
we
do
need
reform
of
our
federal
fiscal
transfer
programs.
I
I,
don't
have
to
remind
the
members
in
this
committee
that
fiscal
stabilization
is
a
program
that
we
need
reform.
That's
one
of
our
our
transfer
programs
and
we
did
make
some
progress.
H
I
have
to
say
some
limited
progress.
We
are
we.
We
had
support
from
every
other
Province
to
eliminate
the
cap,
the
per
capita
cap
on
fiscal
stabilization
and
that
would
have
resulted
in
a
2.4
billion
dollar.
Adjustment
to
our
claim
would
have
been
2016..
We
were
unsuccessful
in
the
complete
removal
of
the
cap.
We
were
unsuccessful
in
retroactive
activity,
at
least
to
date,
we're
not
giving
up
on
it,
but
we
did
see
the
federal
government
increase
the
per
capita
threshold
from
60
dollars
per
person
to
170.
H
H
H
If
we
could
deal
with
those
two
issues
it
could
take,
you
know
what's
about
a
22
billion
dollar
program
and
probably
cut
it
down
by
at
least
a
third,
if
not
in
half,
that
would
be
really
significant
and
that
would
be
a
win
for
albertans,
because
you
know
I
I
get
a
sense.
Albertans
are
not
opposed
to
the
concept
of
Equalization,
and
this
is
the
conversation
I
have
with
my
finance
minister
counterparts.
H
We're
not
opposed
to
the
principle,
and
the
principle
was
this-
that,
regardless
of
where
you
live
in
this
nation,
that
every
Canadian
should
have
access
to
a
baseline
level
of
service
support
and
Services
I
can
support
that
principle.
But
when
a
federal
fiscal
transfer
program
and
the
mechanism
of
that
program
provides
disincentive
for
jurisdictions
from
maximizing
opportunity
for
their
citizens,
we
have
a
problem
and
when
it
penalizes
those
jurisdictions
that
are
doing
everything
they
can
to
create
wealth.
H
F
Now,
I
apologize,
I'm
going
to
be
jumping
around
here,
a
bit,
it's
five
and
a
half
hours
in.
So
a
lot
of
questions
have
been
asked,
but
I
got
a
couple,
a
couple
gaps
and
maybe
a
couple
clarifications:
I'm
next
going
to
jump
a
little
bit
to
just
talk
about
public
sector
compensation
because
it
was
another
another
issue
that
was
raised
to
me.
Of
course,
the
previous
government,
you
know
180
000
lost
jobs.
F
The
only
sector
that
grew
in
Alberta,
while
they
were
in
power,
was
the
public
sector
and
on
page
98,
your
fiscal
plan
provides
an
overview
of
the
public
sector
compensation
compensation,
including
a
mention
of
the
McKinnon
panel
report,
that
found
that
during
that
period
in
those
recent
years,
08
17,
the
total
provincial
core
government
compensation
expenses,
grew
by
49
percent
and
I
think
this
is
something
we
gotta
look
at.
You
know
a
lot
of.
We
want
to
make
sure
that
we're
right
sizing
government.
We
are
a
province
that
continues
to
grow.
F
H
Chair
just
just
a
really
great
question
and
a
great
question
when
we
understand
that
public
sector
compensation
makes
up
about
55
percent
of
the
government
spend
you
know
in
terms
of
operating
expenditures.
So
now
you
know,
I
want
to
be
on
the
record
with
you
know,
a
deep
appreciation
for
the
public
sector-
and
you
know
the
last
few
years
for
some
have
been
difficult
and
I
think
especially
of
our
Frontline
Healthcare
professionals.
I
know
some
personal
stories
as
as
they
delivered
Health
Care
during
the
pandemic
in
really
really
difficult
circumstances.
H
H
Our
fiscal
restraint
in
part
has
been
due
to
right
sizing
the
public
service.
Here
in
the
province,
we
reduced
the
size
of
the
public
service
by
about
seven
percent
at
the
end
of
last
year,
and
we
made
great
progress.
In
fact,
I
think
it
was
crowding
eight
percent
in
terms
of
downsizing.
We
did
it
compassionately,
largely
through
attrition
wherever
possible,
but
we
we
did
look
to
right
size
where
we've
added
back
we're
planning
to
add
back
some
positions
this
year,
but
the
ratio
per
thousand
albertans
was
6.45
public
servants
in
2019.
H
B
I
Thank
you,
Mr
chair,
thank
you,
Minister,
we're
almost
there
so
I'm
going
to
when
I
was
going
through
the
fiscal
plan.
There's
lots
of
notes
in
my
margins
of
constituents
who
have
raised
exactly
these
issues
that
are
are
contained
within
the
fiscal
plan.
So
I
I
want
to
put
those
on
the
record
and
just
sort
of
let
you
know
or
flag
some
of
these
issues
as
I
went
through
it
and
make
sure
that
at
least
they
are
on
someone
else's
radar
other
than
mine
as
I
stand
on
their
doorstep
and
I.
I
In
in
bad
years
and
so
on,
and
that
was
why
there
was
a
review,
but
it's
a
significantly
that's.
It
is
significantly
smaller
pot
of
money
and
there
are
some
restrictions
on
funding
formula
and
it
would
be
good
to
dig
into
those
to
make
sure
that
those
new
organizations
are
not
disadvantaged
in
accessing
that
Fund
in
the
same
way
that
existing
organizations
that's
as
I,
understand
the
problem
directly
from
them
to.
I
Okay,
thank
you,
and
so
next
around
Justice
we
have
259
million
included
annually
for
court
and
Justice
Services,
there's
some
Crown
prosecution,
Services
stuff
and
there's
some
some
Capital
plan
investment
around
Courthouse
infrastructure,
I'm.
Well
aware.
We
all
are
of
the
buckets
over
there
in
the
Edmonton
Courthouse.
I
Every
time
it
rains
or
the
snow
decides
to
melt
and
I,
see
in
here,
there's
some
planning
funds
for
Sherwood,
Park
and
continuing
I
think
with
the
Red
Deer
Courthouse,
but
there's
other
Regional
Courthouse
services
that
need
attention,
not
just
in
the
capital
investment
piece,
but
also
in
the
number
of
humans.
They
are
to
do.
The
work
and
I'm
I
have
heard
directly
from
people
who
work
at
the
Lethbridge
courthouse
on
both
topics.
I
So
if
there
is
as
we're
assigning
new
ftes,
it
almost
seemed
to
me
listening
to
the
woman
that
had
just
finished
her
30-year
career
at
the
lesbridge
courthouse.
It
seems
to
me
that
both
a
Workforce
review,
because
I've
heard
this
in
other
jurisdictions
as
well
in
terms
of
Workforce,
needs
to
be
able
to
keep
up
with.
You
know
Jordan
decision,
all
the
things
and
some
of
those
Capital
planning
requirements
courthouses
are
way
more
expensive
than
I.
I
H
Couple
of
weeks
ago,
chair
can
I
respond
to
that,
because
I
appreciate
the
member
raising
it.
The
our
challenge
with
court
capacity
is
well
documented
and,
and
that's
been
a
challenge
for
some
years,
it
was
I
know
I
got
to
know
our
lead,
Crown
prosecutor
in
Grand,
Prairie
way
back
in
2019
and
and
already
back.
Then
it
was
a
concern
and
it's
remained
a
concern
very
admittedly,
this
year
we
are
increasing
the
budget
for
Justice
by
10
percent.
H
We
have
also
entered
into
a
new
remuneration
agreement
with
crown
prosecutors,
we
found
that
we
had
were
falling
behind
other
provinces
and
the
federal
government,
especially,
and
so
we
needed
to
adjust
our
compensation
to
not
only
attract
but
retain
our
CPS,
but
this
funding
is
more
than
just
for
CPS
it's
for
court
capacity.
Yes,
it's
for
staff,
broadly
because
you
know
that
is
one
of
the
core
deliverables
of
government.
I
H
We,
you
know,
there's
Firearms
owners
who
can't
you
know,
get
the
licensing
transfers
all
of
that
done
on
a
timely
basis,
and
so
what
we
believe
this
is
going
to
result
in
better
service
and
and
not
only
that,
but
it
will
ultimately
provide
The
Province
the
ability
to
direct
activity
here,
which
we
know
there's
a
very
different
mindset
in
Alberta
around
the
safe
use
of
firearms
by
law-abiding
citizens
and
the
attitude
in
Ottawa.
We
need
an
alberta-centric
attitude,
yeah.
I
I
mean
certainly
it's
good
that
we're
keeping
the
same
humans
doing
that
work,
because
it
is
relationship-based
work,
because
I
understood
from
my
constituents
who
does
that
function
in
Southern
Alberta.
It's
it's
about
those
connections
with
you
know,
gun
clubs
and
all
the
a
lot
of
these
folks
collectors
and
but
I
as
Goa
takes
on
new
functions.
I
I,
I
I
just
want
the
concern
to
be
noted
around
cause
containment
and
efficiencies
around
some
casino
revenue
and
share
for
non-profits
I.
I
I
I
wanted
to
raise
this
a
little
bit
in
the
time
that
we
have
when
I'm
not
knocking
on
doors.
Apparently
I
spend
my
time
volunteering
at
casinos
for
various
children's
activities
and
every
time
I
do
this
I
try
to
pass
the
time
with
my
fellow
volunteers
by
asking
them
how
many
of
these
they
do
a
year
talking
to
the
the
organizations
you
know
whether
it's
fellow
board
members
or
sometimes
it's
the
staff
of
the
organizations.
I
Have
you
seen
your
take.
You
know:
go
up,
go
down.
How
has
that
gone
over
the
years?
How
would
you
improve
this
system?
I've
just
asked
people
directly
like
if
you
were
in
this
chair.
What
would
you
do
differently
so
I
want
to
know
if
there
are
any
changes
on
the
horizon
to
polling
to
add
the
share
for
non-profits,
and
what
we
kind
of
see
is
the
future
of
this.
I
Don't
ask
them
when
they're
finishing
up
the
4
a.m
shift,
but
in
general
they
they
don't
mind.
It
I
usually
take
the
foray,
I'm
sure
that's
awful,
but
but
I'm
wondering
if
we
can
talk
a
little
bit
about
that
and
I
I
send
messages
directly
to
non-profits.
If
we
could
around
what
government's
intent
around
some
of
that
Revenue
any
plans
to
increase
it
more
as
support
to
nonprofits
through
that
vehicle.
H
I
believe
will
apportion
some
grant
funding
from
Casino
income
gaming
income,
but
I
think
Alberta
is
the
only
jurisdiction
where
Charities
can
actually
participate
in,
and
you
know
I
one
could
debate
the
merits
of
that
opportunity
for
sure,
but
I
think
at
the
end
of
the
day,
it's
there's
probably
some
value
there
as
again
Charities
nonprofits
can
step
in
and
you
know
actually
participate
in
raising
funds.
This
is
a
very
complex
area.
H
Aglc
has
conducted
quite
a
thorough
review
around
this
model
and,
as
you
would
expect,
there
are
many
competing
conclusions
and
objectives
with
with
this
model,
and
so
there
have
been
some
very
modest
changes
that
came
out
of
that
work,
but
I,
don't
believe
we're
we're
done
in
in
the
intermediate
term.
With
respect
to
making
adjustments
to
ensure
that
you
know
we
have
every
region
of
the
province
can
participate,
has
access
to
to
a
casino
to
raise
funds
for
for
their
charity.
H
F
A
lot
of
it
is
extremely
exciting.
What
we're
seeing
the
massive
amount
of
investment
that's
coming
here
to
Alberta
and
on
your
key
objective,
2.5
of
your
business
plan.
It
states
that
the
ministry
will
enhance
awareness
of
the
financial
services
concierge
and
Regulatory
sandbox
for
the
finance
and
fintech
sectors
to
promote
the
diversification
of
Alberta's
com
economy
and
I'm,
just
wondering
if
you
can
provide
some
background
as
to
the
need
for
increasing
the
awareness
about
this
regulatory
sandbox.
H
We
we
had
a
conversation
about
that
earlier
and
there's
been
an
awful
lot
of
interest
in
in
financial
services.
I.
Oh
here
we
go
in
in
the
sandbox
and
if
I
can
share,
I
just
want
to
go
through
this
list.
We,
you
know
my
official
admit.
Treasury
talked
about
an
example
of
a
crypto
custodian
trust
company
that
that
expressed
interest,
which
is
really
great.
H
H
F
That's
really
exciting
news
and
and
I
think
you
know,
as
somebody
that
was
in
business
before
having
predictability
when
it
comes
to
regulations,
is
incredibly
important
as
well
without
having
having
that
sandbox
that
you're
creating
to
be
able
to
twofold
assist
those
coming
to
Alberta,
but
also
make
sure
consumers
are
protected.
That's
that's
incredibly
important
work.
F
I,
guess
just
to
follow
up
on
that,
because
we're
closing
about
two
minutes
left
here
on
on
six
hours,
but
how
much
funding
are
you
putting
towards
this,
and-
and
maybe
just
you
know,
anytime
you're
putting
taxpayers
monies
towards
us
I
guess
we
talk,
I
always
revert
back
to
what
the
return
on
investment
is.
As
do
you
really
feel
that
the
money
being
spent
in
the
space
right
now
has
that
that
real
benefit
to
the
taxpayers
money
being
invested
in
it.
H
So
so
that's
a
great
question
and
that
should
be
a
calculation
that
occurs
every
time
we
look
to
make
an
investment
with
the
financial
services
concierge
it's
one,
it's
one
FTE
is
all,
is
all
we're.
Setting
aside,
that's
the
incremental
now
we're
using
existing
Department
capacity.
So
it's
about
130
000
doesn't
mean
there's
only
one
person
doing
this
work.
H
It
means
that's
the
incremental
cost
to
government
and
in
terms
of
the
regulatory
sandbox,
we're
using
existing
capacity
across
three
Ministries
so
again,
so
that
we're
not
taking
on
a
lot
of
extra
cost
to
offer
this
new
and
novel
opportunity
I
want
to
get
back
chair
on
the
actual
Public
Service
metrics,
and
this
would
be
Public
Service
employees
per
thousand
residents.
Alberta
I
believe
is
right
now
of
5.83
and
Ontario
is
slightly
better
at
5.7.
Of
course,
they
have
the
great
advantage
of
economies
of
scale.
H
F
I
really
appreciate
all
your
answers.
Of
course,
we've
got
about
25
seconds
left,
so
just
on
behalf
of
everyone
here
I.
Thank
you
to
you,
your
staff,
for
all
your
time
that
you
put
into
providing
clarification
and
all
answering
all
the
questions
that
were
put
forward
to
today,
and
we
really
appreciate
all
the
work
you
put
into
this
amazing
budget
for
2023..
Thanks
again,
chair.
B
Apologize
for
the
interruption,
but
I
must
advise
the
committee
that
time
allotted
for
the
consideration
of
the
ministry's
estimate
says
concluded
I'd
like
to
remind
committee
members
that
we
are
scheduled
to
meet
again
in
half
an
hour
in
this
room
to
consider
the
estimates
of
the
ministry
of
energy
and
it
starts
promptly
at
seven
o'clock
run
out.
There
grab
a
bite
and
put
it
back
in
here.