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From YouTube: Historic Resources Commission – July 12, 2023
Description
Regular meeting of the City of Asheville Historic Resources Commission.
Access the agenda and other meeting materials at the City of Asheville website: https://www.ashevillenc.gov/department/planning-urban-design/historic-resources/historic-resources-commission/
Participate before and during the meeting on our public engagement hub: https://publicinput.com/T6444
A
So
what
we
have
done
is
established
inside
the
Smith
McDowell
house,
the
Asheville
Museum
of
History,
for
a
number
of
reasons,
one,
you
know
our
as
a
historic
House
Museum.
We
had
had
the
same
interpretation
decoration
for
almost
40
years,
so
it
started
happening
in
the
80s,
our
constituency,
our
membership.
Our
visitation
had
dropped,
Way,
Way
South
even
prior
to
covid,
and
we
knew
we
wanted
to
be
able
to
tell
a
broader
and
more
diverse
history
of
not
only
Asheville
but
of
Western
North
Carolina.
A
We
also
received
in
2019
a
large
bequest
from
a
member
of
the
McDowell
family,
which
allowed
us
to
do
a
lot
of
much
needed,
much
deferred
renovation
and
restoration
to
the
house.
So
you
all
saw
us
when
we
replaced
the
100
year
old,
red
slate
roof
with
a
copper
roof,
which
was
the
first
thing
that
we
did
basically
to
shore
up
the
rest
of
the
house
before
we
did
anything
underneath
the
roof.
We
wanted
to
make
sure
okay.
A
The
roof
was
was
stable,
so
that
was
the
first
thing
we've
also
since
that
has
happened.
All
of
our
pretty
much
everything
we've
done
has
been
interior,
except
for
painting
the
exterior
of
the
house,
the
same
colors
that
it
already
was
so
in
in
the
interior.
We've
installed
a
new
HVAC
system,
so
we
have
climate
control
throughout
the
building
repaired.
A
lot
of
plaster
that
had
fallen
throughout
the
house
do
mostly
due
to
water
damage,
redone
the
modern
bathrooms
in
the
house
painted
the
interior.
A
If
you
had
been
in
there
and
prior
to
this
year,
it
had
been
covered
with
very
ornate,
Victorian
wallpaper
for
a
very
long
time.
In
order
to
repair
the
plaster
we
had
to
remove
some
of
the
wallpaper
and
then
seal
in
a
lot
of
it,
and
basically,
what
we
did
was
take
everything
back
to
kind
of
what
it
would
have
been
like
when
it
was
first
built
in
1840.
A
So
we
took
the
walls
back
to
White
baseboards
back
to
dark,
very
dark
brown,
and
it
also
had
the
added
benefit
of
making
it
into
a
really
nice
Gallery
spaces.
So
we've
also
installed
Museum
Quality
Lighting.
In
all
of
the
gallery,
spaces,
which
are
all
on
the
first
floor
of
the
house,
it's
the
only
accessible
floor
of
the
house.
We
do
have
an
accessible
bathroom
or
working
with
Stephen
Lee
Johnson
to
create
accessible
entrance
into
the
house
and
accessible
parking
right
now
is
gravel
and
Flagstone.
A
A
We
can
do
with
the
basement
and
it's
also
a
very
interesting
space
and
one
that
is
original
to
the
house
as
well
as
a
period
room
on
the
second
floor,
which
contains
all
the
various
items
that
we've
collected
from
the
original
occupants
and
owners
of
the
house
and
so
we'll.
We
will
still
be
doing
sort
of
a
guided
period
room
behind
the
scenes.
A
But
the
biggest
change
that
you'll
see
is
that
the
entire
forest
floor
is
going
to
be
Gallery.
Space
dedicated
to
telling
the
broad
stories
of
Western
North
Carolina
you'll
enter
guests
will
enter
through
the
side
entrance,
which
is
the
most
successful
accessible
on
the
gravel
drive.
We
do
have
the
Ada
accessible
entrance
in
the
back.
No
one
will
enter
through
the
front
of
the
house,
which
has
very
steep
concrete
stairs.
A
Once
you
enter
through
the
front
of
the
house,
we
will
have
two
large
Gallery
spaces,
which
it's
a
four
by
four
house,
if
you're
not
familiar
with
it,
and
it
has
a
grand
Archway
that
was
added
on
so
we'll
have
two
Gallery
spaces,
which
will
have
a
permanent
exhibit
we're
working
with
design
Dimensions
out
of
Raleigh
to
curate.
That
and
have
it
fabricated
and
in
place
for
opening
it
at
the
end
of
October
Those
portions
of
the
exhibit
will
be
dedicated
to
the
walls
as
well.
A
If
you're
not
familiar
with
the
house,
those
two
rooms
are
split
by
a
very
large
wide
hallway.
It's
35
feet
long
and
we
will
have
a
timeline
of
Western
North
Carolina
history
that
will
span
the
entire
length
of
the
hallway
again
will
be
designed
by
Design
Dimension
designed
and
installed
by
them.
Thank
goodness
the
other
two
rooms
which,
if
you
have
been
in
the
house,
I'm
calling
it
the
solarium
side
of
the
house,
because
there
is
a
lovely
sun
room
and
Solarium
on
that
side
of
the
house.
A
A
First
Boston
Public
Library,
when
Rafael
guastavino
came
over
from
Spain,
but
a
number
of
other
buildings
and
I'm
sure
you
all
are
familiar
with
across
the
United
States,
including
the
Oyster
Bar
City
Hall
subway,
stop
Duke,
Chapel
I
could
keep
going,
but
here
in
Asheville
he
came
for
the
Biltmore
State,
like
many
people
retired
to
an
estate.
A
He
built
in
Black
Mountain
and
also
constructed
the
Basilica,
and
so
we
are
also
collaborating,
certainly
with
the
folks
at
Christ
Mount,
where
his
estate
was
and
is
on
the
National
Historic
register,
as
well
as
the
guastavino
alliance
and
the
Basilica
who's
going
through
a
major
Capital
campaign.
So
we'll
be
involved
with
them
and
hopefully
build
more
as
well.
But
that's
a
little
bit
more
of
an
Ask,
sometimes
so.
We'll
have
that
up
for
at
least
six
months,
potentially
a
little
bit
longer.
A
Sort
of
what
the
layout
of
the
house
will
look
like
we'll
be
open
to
the
public
three
to
four,
probably
four
days
a
week
and
we'll
also
offer
those
guided
behind
the
scenes
tours.
Now.
That's
what
happens
mostly
in
the
facility.
If
you've
been
paying
attention
to
us
in
the
last
three
years,
we
have
really
expanded
our
program
offerings.
A
So
we've
been
doing
a
lot
of
virtual
programming,
which
has
now
transitioned
into
hybrid
programming,
so
we're
doing
it
in
person
as
well
as
which
you
all
are
doing
right
now:
broadcasting
it
live
to
folks
throughout
Western
North
Carolina,
really
with
throughout
the
country
who'd
like
to
attend
our
events
and
then
also
recording
them
so
that
people
have
access
to
them
after
and
we
try
to
do
programs
on
a
variety
of
diverse
topics
with
diverse
speakers,
and
that
will
continue.
We
also
do
hikes
guided
tours
and
we'll
be
expanding.
A
Now
that
we
will
have
a
interior
space
in
our
facility,
where
we
can
do
programs
to
doing
programs
in
that
sort
of
multi-purpose
permanent
exhibit
so
we're
very
excited.
We
have
a
great
dedicated
Board
of
Trustees.
We've
got
two
staff
members
who
are
very
excited
about
doing
this,
and
so
I
hope
you
all
certainly
will
come
and
visit
us
when,
when
we
do
reopen
we're
looking
at
August
18th
for
sort
of
a
first
look
of
August,
not
August,
no
October
18th,
please
do
not
come
in
August
October.
D
A
For
a
sort
of
a
soft
opening,
first
look
and
then
we'll
open
to
the
public
soon
very
soon
after
that,
so
please
do
come.
Please
do
be
involved.
I
I
definitely
recognize
a
lot
of
names.
I
know.
Many
of
you
are
members.
I
think
I
just
got
a
membership
payment
from
you
not
that
long
ago,.
A
Processing
but
I'll
leave
my
cards
with
you
all
our
website
is
on
here.
We
have
a
brand
new
website
with
a
lot
of
our
history
programs
already
on
there
and
so
really
hope
that
you
all
will
be
involved
and
spread
the
word
about
us
because
we
really
are
an
entirely
new
organization.
We
are
still
incorporated
as
wnc
historical
Association,
but
we
are
the
actual
Museum
of
History.
Now
this
is
an
entirely
New
Vision
and
it's
very
exciting.
Are
you
open
to
the
public?
Now
we.
A
Yeah,
it's
also
why
I
don't
have
any
pictures,
because
it's
still
mostly
everything
we
do.
We
did
just
get
the
guastavino
exhibit
mounted.
So
it's
up
of
the
permanent
exhibit
is
still
being
designed.
So
there's
not
that
much
to
see
right
now,
but
we
are
still
doing
programming
every
month.
So
you
can
look
on
our
website
for
the
different
programs
that
we're
doing
so.
A
H
J
Good
afternoon
I'm
chair
Sue,
Oliver
and
I'd
like
to
welcome
you
to
think
to
the
July
2023
historic
Resources
Commission.
Meeting
HRC
is
a
quasi-judicial
body
that
is
governed
by
North
Carolina,
General
statutes,
the
city
of
Asheville's,
United
development,
ordinance
and
Buncombe
County
ordinance.
We
are
authorized
to
hear
requests
for
certificates
of
appropriateness
for
alterations,
demolitions,
new
construction
and
other
work
within
historic
districts
or
for
the
alteration
and
demolition
of
historic.
I
C
I
career-wise
I
am
an
editor
and
a
Content
writer
and
I've
I've,
just
always
loved
historical
architecture
and
my
family
is
we're
a
family
of
antique
dealers.
So
that's
probably
why
but
yeah
is
that
yeah.
That's
great
okay,.
P
J
J
J
J
We
will
now
begin
the
evidentiary
hearings
for
the
items
listed
on
the
agenda
as
a
quasi-judicial
proceeding.
The
HRC
is
not
setting
policy,
nor
are
we
soliciting
public
opinion
on
the
desirability
of
an
application.
The
HRC
hears
and
considers
evidence
presented
and
applies
the
standards
set
forth
in
the
guidelines
and
standards
of
the
Pacific
historic
district.
For
that
application,
the
HRC
must
make
its
decision
upon
competent
material
and
substantial
evidence
to
determine
the
facts
of
the
hearing.
The
HRC
will
use
judgment
and
discretion
to
apply
the
standards
contained
in
the
revelant
guidelines
to
the
facts.
J
J
If
you
are
speaking
as
a
witness,
please
focus
on
the
facts
and
how
they
relate
to
the
relevant
historic
district
standards
and
guidelines,
not
personal
preference
or
opinion.
Witnesses
must
swear
or
affirm
their
testimony.
At
this
time,
I
will
administer
the
oath
for
all
individuals
who
tend
to
provide
witness
testimony.
I
F
Q
And
a
normal
laptop
to
press
and
what
not
to
all
right.
So
this
first
item
I
believe
came
to
the
commission
and
in
April
for
the
first
time,
but
I'm
gonna
just
kind
of
talk
through
from
the
beginning,
since
it's
been
a
minute
since
we've
looked
at
this
application
and
also
have
at
least
one
new
person
that
you
were
here
then
I
believe
all
right.
Q
So
this
house
is
at
the
intersection
of
Cumberland
Avenue
and
Soco
Street,
just
a
photo
of
the
front
elevation
for
context,
the
previous
owners
applied
for
and
were
approved,
to
install
a
swimming
pool
in
the
rear
yard.
It's
probably
been
five
years
ago
or
so.
So
this
is
just
a
site
plan
of
what
was
previously
approved.
On
the
left
hand,
side,
which
you
can
see
was
the
pool
with
the
surrounding
pool
deck
and
some
additional
landscape
features,
including
a
small
walkway
and
a
greenhouse
which
those
never
got
built.
Q
So
essentially,
it
was
the
pool
in
the
pool
deck
and
then,
on
the
right
hand,
side.
You
see
the
red
line,
that's
what
we're
talking
about
with
this
application.
Essentially,
what
happened
was
the
after
the
original
pool
was
constructed.
One
thing
I
don't
want
to
leave
out
here,
although
I'm
not
sure
I
have
necessarily
have
concerns
about
it,
but
the
paver
material
that's
shown
on
the
bottom
right
of
the
slide,
is
what
was
originally
approved
for
the
pool
decking.
Q
At
some
point
in
time,
the
existing
I
should
have
included
more
photos,
but
I
think
you
can
probably
tell
from
here,
but
at
some
point
in
time
the
fencing
was
replaced
with
brick
walls
they're
about
five
five
and
a
half
feet
tall.
Q
So
that's
what
we're
here
to
talk
about
today
when
we
talked
about
it
at
the
meeting
in
the
spring.
It
was
a
lot
of
back
and
forth
as
to
whether
or
not
this
mutes
the
standards
they're.
The
standards
do
allow
for
brick
walls
to
be
built
in
the
district,
but
I
think
the
standard
that
really
needs
to
be
determined
that
has
been
met.
Q
Aside
from
just
the
material
is
worded,
my
staff
report,
the
the
Third
the
third
standard,
underneath
the
recommendation
that
new
walls
should
be
cited
in
locations
that
are
compatible
with
the
traditional
historic
relationship
of
walls
to
Historic
properties
in
the
district.
So
that's
really
the
primary
standard
that
the
commission
needs
to
find
has
been
met
in
this
case
to
Grant
and
after
the
fact
approval.
Since
the
last
meeting
in
the
spring,
the
commission
did
some
Commissioners
were
able
to
make
a
site
visit.
Q
We
made
an
organized
site
visits
since
it
was
in
the
rear
yard.
It
seemed
like
it
would
be
helpful.
So
there
was
a
handful
of
folks
that
came
to
the
site
visit,
so
I
think
we're
all
just
interested
I'm
interested
to
hear
what
the
commission's
feedback
is.
At
this
point,
I
I've
struggled
with
this
one
myself
I,
don't
know
that
I
can
think
of
an
example
where
there
are
freestanding
walls
like
this
in
the
district.
Q
Typically,
while
walls
in
Montford
were
cited,
where
one
might
imagine
like
along
a
property
boundary
or
to
retain
something
versus
this
kind
of
more
distinctive
boundary
around
a
pool
which
pools
are
unusual
in
themselves.
I'm
offered
I
think
there's
three
that
I,
that
I
know
that
this
commission
has
approved
and
I
don't
know
like
in
the
boulder
I
didn't
include
these
in
my
slideshow,
but
the
applicant
did
submit
as
part
of
their
original
application
a
handful
of
images
of
other
walls
in
the
district.
So
that's
part
of
their.
Q
You
know
their
evidence
to
you
to
support
this
and
I'll.
Let
Derek
Allen
is
here
as
well
as
the
property
owner
I'll.
Let
them
present
any
new
information
that
they
want
to
and
then
just
we
can
just
talk
it
out.
Does
anyone
have
any
questions
for
me.
N
Q
Yep,
the
paper
yeah,
the
paper
image
on
below
was
what
was
installed
or
improved,
rather
as
part
of
their
original
approval,
CA
approval
and
then,
when
the,
when
it
actually
got
built
it
got
built
in
in
you
know,
fully
compliant
with
the
ca
that
was
previously
issued,
with
the
exception
of
the
paper,
but
then
at
a
later
date
the
fencing
that
was
previously
approved,
got
removed
and
the
walls.
So
it's
got
the
two
things
that
are
out
of
compliance.
O
Q
Wall,
the
pool
decking
so
like
the
image
on
the
bottom
here.
That
is
the
material.
It's
not
a
brick
paper,
it's
more
of
like
a
I.
Don't
I
can't
remember
what
it
was
called
I'd
have
to
unearth
the
the
manufacturer,
spec
name,
but
it's
it's
it's
it's
probably
some
kind
of
fired
paver,
it's
not
totally
unlike
bricks.
I!
Don't
really
have
that
much
of
a
concern
about
the
the
decking
material
I'm.
Just
noting
that
that's
something
that
needs.
L
Q
And
that
was
I
think
yeah
I,
don't
it
was.
It
was
a
long
time
between
the
complaint
from
the
neighbor
and
I
believe
that
that
neighbor
has
since
moved,
but
that
this
case
has
been
open
for
a
while
now,
but
to
go
back
to
your
first
question
just
to
be
clear
for
everyone,
enforcement
issues
run
with
the
property
they
don't
run
with
the
owner.
Q
Unfortunately,
so
we
do
run
into
this
every
now
and
then
we're
an
unknowing
property
owner,
buys
a
house
or
a
property
in
a
historic
district
and
unfortunately
doesn't
realize
that
there
was
work
done
without
a
CA
and
if
we
we
have
a
responsibility.
If
we
receive
a
complaint,
especially
to
take
action
on
it,
that's
generally
how
we
operate
from
enforcement
perspective
like
we're
not
in
our
neighborhood
policing
stuff.
So
so.
L
Should
this
board
in
its
decision-making
also
find
make
findings
in
fact
and
issue
a
decision
about
the
appropriateness
of
the
paving
material
as
well?
Yes,
okay
and
I
have
one
other
question:
what
was
it?
Oh
real
estate
when
Real
Estate
is
transferred
when
it's
sold
is,
is
notification
about
existing
existence
within
an
historic
district,
a
locally
designated
historic
district?
That
is
not
a
required
disclosure.
Q
No
and
in
North
Carolina
and
Shannon
could
speak
to
this
I
don't
know.
I
took
the
I
took
the
real
estate
class
years
ago,
but
I
remember
that
North
Carolina
is
like
a
buyer's.
Beware
state
right
like
where
you
know,
there's
a
lot
of
stuff
that
doesn't
have
to
be
disclosed
ethically
or
legally.
Okay
and
and
I
mean
there's
I.
Q
Think
it's
I,
remember
Ben,
Mitchell
being
pretty
knowledgeable
about
this,
that
that
there
was
some
Hope
from
a
legislative
standpoint
that
there
would
be
included
more
information
about
historic
districts
and
the
implications
of
that.
But
I,
don't
you
know
obviously
I'm,
not
lobbying
in
Raleigh,
so
I
don't
know.
If
there's
any
likelihood
of
that
happening,
we
wish
that
we
had
more
contact
with
property
owners
who
are
looking
and
sometimes
you
know,
Brokers
are
in
the
know
and
they
do
reach
out
to
us,
but
not
certainly
not
always.
So.
R
Absolutely
on
the
the
original
approved,
like
landscape
plan,
they
looked
like
there
was
like
landscape
screening.
Was
that
place
like
at
like
three
Evergreens
to
the
rear
and
then
planned
North.
Q
And
not
as
densely
on
that
north
side,
I,
don't
I
I
know
that
I
took
a
picture
I'll
try
to
see
if
I,
if
I
I
think
I
put
that
one
in
the
file,
but
may
not
have
put
it
in
my
slideshow.
These
are
the
two
picture
or
two
of
the
pictures
that
I
took
when
we
were.
F
F
Q
Yeah
I
know
that
the
the
right
so
like
the
the
current
property
owner
has
planted
stuff
along
the
outside
that,
hopefully
will
grow
to
you
know
to
mature
and
Screen
the
the
walls
a
bit
more,
and
you
know
I
think
one
other
thing
that
I
kind
of
like
can
go
either
direction
in
is
that
it
is
so
grown
in
back.
There,
like
these
Lots
feel
very
like
private
to
themselves
in
a
way
without
any
barrier
existing.
Q
So
on
the
one
hand,
I
kind
of
feel
like
it
then
makes
the
wall
less
impactful
back
there,
but
also
simultaneous
it's
like
what
was
it.
Was
it
really
necessary
because
you're
not
really
like
invaded
from
a
privacy
perspective
from
the
neighbors?
Now
they
might
have
to
have
a
different
opinion
of
that
being
that
they
use
this
pool
so
I'll.
Let
them
speak
to
that,
but
yeah,
that's.
The
other
thing
that
certainly
is
helping
in
the
situation
is
that
it
is
in
a
rear
yard.
But
I
do
think
you
know.
Q
O
Q
I
didn't
say
that
I
I
couldn't
speak
to
every
single
freestanding
wall
in
Montford.
It's
just
that
there's
not
a
ton
of
brick
in
Montford
period,
more
common
was
concrete
and
stone,
and
there
are
definitely
some
freestanding
walls
off
the
top
of
my
head.
I
can
think
of
one
up
the
street
on
Cumberland,
that's
freestanding,
but
it's
Stone
and
they're.
Just
there
just
isn't
a
lot
of
brick
in
this
District,
even
though
it's
an
allowed
material.
Q
Q
But
you
know
that
was
one
thing
we
talked
about
with
the
applicant
before
the
first
hearing
was
you
know,
if
they're
examples
that
you
know
of
bring
those
to
support
your
case
and
there's
that
there's
the
the
if
you
go
back
to
the
original
application
folder
for
this
project,
there's
there's
certainly
some
photos
that
the
applicant
submitted
as
part
of
their
original
application.
I
didn't
look
at
those
this
time
around,
but
we
can
go
back
through
those.
If
they're
helpful,
you
can
find
the
location
for
this.
B
Q
Oh
this,
this
application,
yeah
yeah,
I
I,
told
them
you
know.
I
was
like
you.
Obviously
you
have
to
make
your
case
to
the
commission
and
having
examples
of
other
walls
to
help
support.
Your
case
is
best
case.
You
know
it's
ideal
and
I'm
just
trying
to
figure
out
where,
where
those
are
in
our
file,
but.
F
This
as
if
it's
a
request
to
build
a
brick
wall,
that's
already
there
pretty
much
whether
we
approve
that
or
don't
approve
it.
It's
not.
We
don't
have
to
find
the
solution
for
screening
of
a
pool.
F
Q
Q
L
Could
you
go
back
to
the
current
photos
and
be
clear
about
what
parts
of
the
wall
so
as
I
understand
from
the
site
visit
a
portion
of
the
brick
wall
was
already
in
place
and
that
correct
me,
if
I'm
wrong
is
the
retaining
wall?
I
can't
that's
so
small
I
can't
see
it.
The
photos,
I
think
are
maybe
better
well.
Q
Right,
there's
like
when
you
get
to
the
end
of
the
driveway,
where
the
two
cars
are
shown.
Yes,
there's
that
that
was
all
approved
as
part
like
the
the
wall
adjacent
to
that
that
was
all
approved
as
previously
and
built
as
it
was
approved.
So
it's
really
just
the
section
along
the
north
side
of
the
pool
and
the
west
side
of
the
pool.
Q
Q
Q
Q
Sorry
I
hope
I
didn't
sound
harsh.
We
just
had
at
our
last
meeting.
It
was
like
a
discussion
between
the
audience
for
a
while
and
so
we're
trying
to
trying
to
Wrangle
that
in
a
little
bit
so
I
any
other
questions
for
me
and
then
I'll
just
I
can
turn
it
over
to
them.
To
answer
anything
else.
Q
D
H
Hi,
my
name
is
Derek
Allen
I'm,
with
Alan
Stalin,
Kilbourne
and
I
represent
the
dunbars,
who
are
our
clients
and
my
neighbors
I
love
to
stop
the
street
in
Montford
and
and
friends,
and
we're
trying
to
figure
out
how
to
unwind
this
thing,
and
if
we
could
go
back
in
time
and
do
this
on
the
front
end
I
assure
you
that
we
would
I
assure
that
he
would
and
his
wife
would
so
we're
trying
to
to
get
to
to
the
right
place.
H
I
really
appreciate
everyone
coming
out
and
Alex's
efforts
and
coming
out
and
doing
the
site
visit.
I.
Think
that's
important,
so
you
can
see
how
remote
this
is
in
terms
of
removed
from
other
properties
removed
from
the
roadways.
It's
in
the
back
of
the
yard.
It's
kind
of
down
in
a
hole,
I
think
those
parts
are
important
in
terms
of
the
enforcement
actions.
We
believe
a
neighbor
complaint.
H
We
believe
that
neighbors
no
longer
in
the
neighborhood
and
all
of
the
neighbors
that
Mr
dunbar's
talked
to
and
the
one
that
came
out
and
asked
me
what
I
was
doing
when
I
was
taking
new
pictures.
This
week
have
said:
please
we
hope
this
goes
through,
and
so
we
do
have
that
support
from
the
neighbors
I
know,
that's
only
some
kind
of
anecdotal
pieces,
but
they
they
feel
good
about
this.
H
The
the
thing
I
wanted
to
do
is
leave
up
this
picture
here
and
the
one
on
the
left
that
shows
the
fence
the
reason
I'll
leave.
This
up
is
because
I've
got
some
photos
that
that
were
taken
today
and
we'd
like
to
introduce
these
in
the
evidence
you
take.
These
photos
that
you
sent
to
me
today
so
I'll
click
those
photos
yep.
Can
we
introduce
these
into
our
evidentiary
package?
I
would
like
to
pass
these
around
I.
Think
I've
got
10
copies.
H
And
you'll
be
able
to
see
a
couple
of
things
here.
The
decking
I
know
you
had
a
question
about
the
the
decking
that
was
well
before
Mr
Dunbar
purchased
it,
and
by
the
way
this
is
a
griffin,
award-winning
house.
It's
a
great
redo.
H
It's
been
done
with
with
live
from
the
prior
owners
and
these
folks
as
well
and
and
really
a
gem
in
in
our
neighborhood,
the
prior
deck
I'm,
not
even
sure
if
it's
timely
in
terms
of
any
kind
of
enforcement
action,
I
know,
there's
a
time
period
on
that
I
really
haven't
been
focused
on
that
we've
really
been
focusing
on
the
replacement
of
this
aluminum
fence
with
the
brick
wall
and
as
we're
getting
these
pictures
passed
out.
H
I
want
to
address
another
question:
that's
come
up
and
and
where
at
least
staff
has
started
to
focus
on
or
focused
on
the
appropriateness
piece
of
that,
and
that
is,
is
the
sighting
of
the
walls
appropriate
and
I.
Think
there
are
two
questions:
one
is
stand
alone,
walls
as
opposed
to
retaining
walls
and
where
they
are
in
relation
to
the
structure
in
relation
to
the
street
neighbors.
Now
there
is
is:
are
the
materials
appropriate
and
here
we're
talking
about
brick
as
that's
an
appropriate
material
in
the
Montford
neighborhood?
H
And
then
we
talked
about
a
little.
The
discussion
was
centering
on
stonewalls
and
concrete
walls
versus
these
brick
walls
and
the
example
of
the
house
actually
actually,
two
houses
at
the
corner
of
Cumberland
and
Chestnut
and
I've
got
these
photos.
I
can
pass
back
around,
but
those
are
part
of
the
packet
here.
H
And
you'll
see
these
walls
are
a
mixture
of
retaining
walls
as
well
as
brand
new
stone
walls
that
are
in
the
front
yards
there
at
Cumberland
and
Chestnut,
and
those
walls
are
made
of
stone
because
the
foundations
of
those
houses
are
made
of
stone.
If
you
look
at
this
house
here,
the
foundation
of
this
house
is
Brick
and
the
retaining
walls
are
already
in
the
driveway
and
already
approved
our
brick,
and
these
are
really
just
an
extension.
B
H
Are
so
the
two
things
in
here?
One
is
freestanding
walls
and
the
other
is
materials
in
those
walls,
because
some
of
them
are
not
freestanding
walls,
some
of
the
retaining
walls
that
are
made
of
brick,
but
the
brick
walls
are
in
there
that
are
retaining.
Walls
are
in
there
to
show
that
brick
is
inappropriate
and
well-used
material
in
walls
throughout
throughout
the
neighborhood.
H
This
first
photo
in
this
packet.
I
want
to
drill
down
this
a
little
bit
because
I
think
it
shows
several
things.
If
you
look
at
this
wall
here,
which
is
the
retaining
wall
up
in
the
driveway
that
was
already
there
and
already
approved.
H
If
you
look
at
this
new
wall
that
comes
around
and
it
goes
around
the
entire
pool,
that
was
part
of
the
certificate
of
appropriateness
that
was
already
approved,
and
if
you
look
back
here,
the
wall
that
extends
from
the
retaining
wall.
This
is
what
used
to
be
the
aluminum
fence.
So
this
is
the
only
new
piece
and
in
fact
the
aluminum
fence
gate
is
still
the
same:
aluminum
fence
gate.
So
it's
the
same
height
they've
just
switched
out
the
aluminum
fence,
with
the
brick.
H
H
The
second
third
photos.
Actually
the
second
photo
here.
This
was
designed
to
show
the
Landscaping
that
has
gone
on.
If
you
look
at
the
the
photos
from
the
April
submission,
you'll
see
that
the
Landscaping
was
kind
of
Stark
and
since
then,
they've
gone
back
through
and
had
Landscape
Architects
come
in
and
do
landscape
both
interior
to
the
wall,
to
soften
it,
as
well
as
exterior
to
the
to
the
wall
where
it
makes
sense
and
where
it
will
survive.
H
G
H
H
And
again,
the
last
photo
shows
these
already
approved
knee
Wells
and
how
they
go
around
the
outside
of
the
house,
as
well
as
the
the
Magnolias
against
the
inside
of
the
new
wall,
the
already
approved
retaining
wall
and
then
the
bat.
The
back
of
the
house.
H
H
We
think
the
the
materials
for
this
particular
are
appropriate
to
this
house
in
particular,
because
while
there's
not
a
lot
of
brick
houses
in
Montford,
this
house
absolutely
has
brick
that
is
featured
on
this
house
and
is
prominently
featured
on
the
back
of
this
house
and
when
you're
out
there,
you
can
see
that
the
height
of
the
brick
on
the
house
matches
the
height
of
the
brick
on
the
retaining
wall,
as
well
as
as
the
new
walls
to
unwind.
This
now
really
would
be
devastating
to
this
this
family
into
this
neighborhood.
H
We
have
the
support
of
our
neighbors.
We
think
it
makes
sense.
We
think
it's
attractive
to
the
extent
that
that
matters,
and
we
do
think
that
it
is
consistent
with
the
spirit
as
well
as
the
letter
of
of
the
standard
set
out
and
in
the
rules,
we'd
ask
for
your
vote
approval
and
are
here
to
answer
any
questions
or
consider
any
other
suggestions.
You
have.
P
A
couple
of
comments
mostly
and
I'm
sort
of
waiting
a
little
bit
until
the
rest
of
those
precedent
and
context
photos
make
its
way
over
here,
but
I,
don't
I,
guess
I,
just
Alex
and
following
up
to
Chris's
earlier
question
about
permitting
I,
don't
see
in
the
City
Records,
where
there
was
a
permit
issued
for
the
wall
Construction
anytime,
between
where
I
can,
where
we
can
track
the
major
work
application
from
2018
through
some
of
the
other
things
that
have
happened
to
now.
P
Q
D
I
P
That's
just
a
point
of
clarification
that
maybe
not
material
to
this.
My
next
question
Alex
really
is
for,
is
for
you
and
for
the
applicant
to
clarify
the
Landscaping
that
we're
seeing
in
these
photographs
was
recent
was
installed
since
the
app
since
your
major
work
application
was
submitted
for
this
wall.
Construction
correct.
F
P
Q
P
G
G
G
I
L
Q
I
think
the
answer
to
that
is
yes,
because
I
think
that's
just
a
general
premise
in
the
world
of
historic
preservation.
It's
not
explicitly
stated
that
in
the
standards,
unless
we're
talking
about
usually
we're
talking
about
the
building
facades
themselves,
packs
to
like
a
non-character-defining
facade,
for
example
like
if
someone
wanted
to
add
window
or
door
openings
I
think
the
stand
to
that
a
little
more
directly,
but
I
think
we
generally,
you
know,
make
the
same
interpretation
for
changes
to
rear
yards
as
we
would
for.
L
I
Q
I
Q
I
Q
L
Would
be
good
to
know
what
the
what
this
board
considered
as
facts
in
approval
of
the
pool-
and
you
know
that
case
in
total
in
2018..
Thank
you.
My
questions
now
are
for
the
applicant
and
his
Council.
Were
you
aware
that
you
purchased
a
property
in
a
locally
designated
historic
district.
L
G
I
would
say
that
I
was
completely
unfamiliar.
Okay,.
L
Thank
you.
You
have
provided
photographs
of
other
walls
in
Montford,
freestanding
walls,
I
have
observed,
I'm
an
architectural
historian
of
23
years
and
I
have
observed
some
defining
characteristics
that
are
common
among
all
of
those
examples.
L
So,
given
that
the
fence
or
the
the
wall
is
not
located
in
a
similar
area,
can
you
explain?
Can
you
provide
evidence
how
the
location
of
the
wall
is
consistent
according
to
the
design
guidelines
or
is
compatible
with
the
traditional
historic
relationship
of
fences
and
walls
to
Historic
properties?
L
H
H
A
couple
things
there
and
I
like
the
way
that
you
describe
the
the
public
versus
the
private
piece,
because
that
part
is
really
rooted
in
why
this
has
to
be
walled
off,
and
that
is
a
legal
characteristic
that
is
getting
rid
of
an
attractive
nuisance.
And
that's
why
you
have
walls
that
are
required
by
insurance
companies
to
go
around
pools
or
fences
here.
The
height
of
that
is
dictated
by
insurance
companies.
H
That's
why
it
ends
up
at
five
feet
and
I,
don't
think,
there's
any
greater
math
in
terms
of
the
height
of
it
being
five
feet
other
than
the
fact
that
that's
what
was
approved
as
the
height
in
the
original
certificate
of
appropriateness,
the
the
part
about
the
property
line,
at
least
on
the
western
property
line,
that
that
part
of
the
wall
is
on
the
property
line.
We
could
get
it
out,
but
it's
within
a
foot
or
two
of
your
property
line.
H
H
L
Wouldn't
say
that,
well,
it
doesn't
necessarily
have
to
be
a
solid
brick
wall.
The
pre-existing
fence
sufficed
to
prevent
that
or
to
to
deter
someone
from
being
attracted
to
that.
You
know
nuisance.
F
N
D
L
No
actually
I
had
I
had
another
thought,
but
it
it
is
I'm
hearing
two
things:
one:
it's
an
attractive
nuisance.
Therefore,
you
need
this
solid
brick
wall,
the
other
one.
The
other
kind
of
side
of
that
is
it's
in
an
area
where
people
aren't
inclined
to
see
it.
Therefore,
this
wall
is
okay.
These
two
things
sound
to
me.
It
sounds
like
we're
hearing
the
same
thing
and
these
two
things
are
contradictory,
but
I'm
still
interested
in.
P
There's
a
there's,
a
level
of
compatibility
in
the
materials
chosen
to
the
existing
historic
house,
but
when
I
zoom
out
in
the
broader
context
of
Montford
I
lose
that
congruity
quite
a
bit,
because
I
think
there
are
some
very
big
distinctions
in
the
size
and
scale
of
these
walls
shown
as
precedent
and
what
the
wall
in
the
back
of
this
house
is
doing.
I'm
also
stuck
between
the
two
contradictory.
You
can
see
it
and
it's
a
nuisance
or
you
can't
see
it
and
we
can
do
what
we
want,
because
it's
in
the
rear
yard.
P
That's
where
I
struggle
a
little
bit
with
the
broader
Montford
context,
even
though,
if
we
weren't
in
a
historic
district,
the
things
that
you've
chosen
to
do
would
have
been
appropriate
in
its
own
context
of
its
own
yard
and
its
own
house,
and
so
I.
Lose
it
a
little
bit
when
we
zoom
out
to
the
bigger
context,
which
is
a
lot
of
what
the
standards
speak
to
in
Montfort,
is
protecting.
That.
H
Short
context,
experience
I'm
gonna
do
that
same
I'm
gonna.
Do
that
that
thing
that
that
you're
doing
now,
zooming
out
so
I'm
gonna
Zoom
back
out
to
the
actual
standard
for
that
that
Mr
McDonald
is
referring
to
and
that's
sight
new
fences
or
walls
and
locations
that
are
compatible
with
traditional
historic
relationship,
offenses
and
walls
to
Historic
properties
in
the
district.
H
L
Sighting
of
the
fence
was
approved
by
the
pre
in
the
pre
previous
COA.
That
is
the
sum
total
of
the
facts
that
were
presented
in
2018..
Had
this
wall
been
presented
in
2018,
we
cannot
speculate.
What
this
board
might
have
decided,
but
just
because
the
location
was
previously
approved
does
not
mean
that
it
is
a
previously
approved
location
for
the
existing
application.
The
current
application.
H
Okay;
okay,
as
you
know,
that
that
has
the
sighting
of
fences
or
walls,
and
then
the
next
one
is
dealing
with
acceptable
materials
for
for
fences.
But
you
know
I
think
that
there's
a
distinction!
H
That's
why
I
was
trying
to
draw
at
the
beginning
between
the
materials
that
are
appropriate,
both
in
the
entire
context
of
Montford,
but
also
materials
that
are
appropriate
for
the
house,
like
this
specific
property
and
then
the
sighting
that's
appropriate
in
the
entire
neighborhood,
as
well
as
the
sighting
for
this
house
here,
the
sighting
of
that
fence
or
a
wall.
We
know
it
has
to
be
because
the
insurance
company
is
telling
us
and
that's
what
was
presented
in
2018
or
whenever
that
came
through
and
that
that's
what
was
approved
for
the
sighting.
P
I
I
question
the
appropriateness
of
the
wall
as
a
solution
to
the
code
requirement
versus
offense,
because
I
think
contextually
speaking
in
larger
zooming
out
into
Montford
fences
are
routinely
and
consistently
taller
than
walls
are
supported
by
the
evidence
that
you've
presented.
And
so
if
the
requirement
for
for
enclosures
around
pools
is
a
certain
height,
it
is
contextually
more
appropriate
in
my
reading
of
the
guidelines
or
standards
which
I
always
forget
to
call
them
standards
every
time
a
fence
is
a
more
compatible
congruent
choice
to
solve
the
building
code.
P
Problem
of
fencing
around
pools
than
a
wall
is
largely
because
the
the
the
precedent
for
walls
is
a
much
more
diminutive
scale
that
doesn't
obstruct
Sidelines
across
the
broader
landscape,
from
property
to
property,
even
though
there
may
be
a
physical
boundary,
it's
still
much
lower
and
it's
more
symbolic
of
a
division
between
property
lines
and
less
obstructive.
Sure.
That's
where
I
think
I
would
have
struggled
in
2018
to
look
at
the
wall
and
the
fence
exactly
the
same
as
each
other.
D
Q
I
just
wanted
to
point
out
that,
while
you
all
were
talking,
I
did
add
the
findings
of
fact
for
the
previous
approval
to
the
packet,
so
just
to
know
and
Atkins
Center.
If
you
want
to
have
a
copy,
but
they
were
a
the
proposed
pull
a
page
area
are
keeping
30
percent
scale
of
the
main
house
and
the
pool
is
compatible
in
placement
shape.
The
material
with
the
main
house
is
located
behind
the
main
house
and
is
congruous
with
the
guidelines
for
accessory
structures.
Q
Obviously,
we
don't
have
standards
that
specifically
relate
to
polls
of
when
we
were
first
looking,
we
had
a
little
flurry
of
swimming
pools.
We
were
kind
of
like
these
accessory
structures
or
are
they
landscape
features?
So
we
kind
of
melded
those
together
a
little
bit
but
B.
The
scale
of
the
landscaping
and
built
elements
are
congress
with
the
size,
scale
and
design
of
the
house
in
terms
of
the
Victorian
elements
of
the
style
of
the
house.
Q
Which
is
not
not
relevant
to
this
discussion,
but
the
proposed
Landscaping
adequately
screens
all
built
elements
in
the
parking
area.
The
professor
scale
of
the
site
feature
Wellness
site
or
substance
features
of
them.
Is
that
helpful?
So.
L
Q
Q
L
Think
having
those
original
minutes
would
be
helpful
to
maybe
see
if
the
discussion
included
some
of
the
things
that
member
kite
mentioned.
L
You
know
about
fences
and
walls
and
height,
and
you
know
the
required
height
of
fences
surround
or
of
enclosures
surrounding
pools,
because
certainly
you
know,
we
acknowledge
that
it's
required
by
law.
You
know
to
enclose
them,
but
how
it's
enclosed
is
something
that
yeah
there's
some
flexibility
on
well.
Q
D
I
C
Q
The
commission
started
grappling
with
the
whole
notion
of
swimming
pools.
It
was
obviously
in
everyone's
mind
that
it
should
be.
They
should
be
minimized
within
the
land
possible
at
the
usual
way.
We
do
that
is
with
Landscaping,
and
so
certainly
that
was
part
of
the
conversation.
This
was
definitely
the
most
built
out
pool
we've
seen
the
other
one.
I
could
think.
I
Q
B
What
you'll
see
I
think
also
from
that
approval
and
probably
in
the
meaning
minutes,
is
we
we've
been
focusing
on
this
one
standard
you
are.
You
do
not
have
to
focus
on
the
one
standard
again
you're
thinking
in
terms
of
if
this
came
before
you
without
it
being
done.
What
would
you
approve
and,
as
you
can
see
in
this
approval,
the
prior
approval?
A
lot
of
it
was
the
overall
elements
scale.
Does
it
overwhelm
so
I
think
there's
something
to
the
structures
that
mattered
and
whether
something's,
opaque
or
not?
That's,
yeah
and
I.
B
F
D
F
F
Pass
you
have
to
reapply
for
a
certificate,
so
you
might
want
to
I'm
thinking.
There's
back,
you
might
want
one
understand
where
you
need
to
head
or
where
this
body
is
asking
you
to
look
at,
and
you
might
want
to
come
back
with
a
proposal
versus
what
you
have
proposed
so
far,
which
is
what's
up
right.
H
You
able
to
get
in
touch
with
shippo
by
the
way
I
know
we
had
talked
about
that
and
you
were
going
down
so.
Q
Chime
in
but
to
me
technical
advice,
there's
not
any
technical
advice
necessarily
to
be
given
in
this
particular
circumstance,
but
I
could
be
wrong
because
that's
not
defined.
So
in
my
mind,
technical
advice
is
just
technical
advice.
It's
not
theoretical
or
philosophical
advice,
so
I
don't
really
know,
but
I
talked
with
the
shippo
and.
Q
D
Q
Did
the
math
because
Janice
and
are
always
trying
when
we
have
a
protracted
review?
The
statutes
also
dictate
that
the
commission
has
to
make
a
decision
on
a
CA
application
within
180
days
of
receiving
it.
But
I
went
back
into
the
max
today
and
we're
okay.
If,
even
if
we
so
the
August
meeting
will
be
28,
th
2018
votes
that
would
work
with
us
in
there.
Q
Would
be
sensitive
to
that
if
we
needed
to
try
to
get
it
in
for
August,
but
even
if
we
get
to
September,
the
September
meeting
would
be
162
today.
So
we've
got
time
wants
to
ask:
ask
the
shippo
there
are
times
when
I
think
I
would
be
more
clear
in
my
mind
about
the
shipo
being
a
party
that
might
be
able.
Q
I
H
Well,
how
about
this?
How
about
kind
of
a
combination
of
what
you're
suggesting
in
that?
Because
we
also
want
to
see
that
the
minutes
I
know
everyone
wants
to
see
the
minutes
from
the
last
one.
I
think
it
was
time
to
look
at
the
minutes.
We
can
look
at
redoing
it
and
we
can
get
way
in
from
from
shippo
and
just
continue
it
all
for
for
a
month.
P
P
I
think
there's,
you
know
this
is
a
unique
set
of
circumstances
and
there's
certainly
pressure
on
the
applicant.
If
we
decide
that
the
wall
shouldn't
be
there,
that
it's
worth
taking
the
time
and
the
chance
that
we
get
good
guidance
from
the
shippo
we
may
not,
but
it
seems
to
me
worth
the
effort
before
we
just
make
a
big
decision
about
something
that
we
have
to
sort
of
undo
someone's
property
in
a
way
that
is,
you
know,
frustrating
and
unpleasant
for
everybody,
I
think
so
we
may
not
get
very
good
advice.
L
L
My
understanding
is
that
if
you
place,
if
we
ask
the
shippo
for
technical
advice,
that
advice
is
likely
to
come
from
Ms
Kathy
who's
worked
for
the
shippo
for
20
years
or
more
now,
but
it
may
be
that
technical
advice
might
come
from
the
CLG
coordinator
or
possibly
from
the
deputy
shippo
Ramona
Bartos,
who
is
also
an
attorney
I,
don't
know
from
whom
we
would
get
that
advice.
But
if
we're
looking
at
advice
from
the
restoration
specialist,
yes,
she
can
provide
technical
advice
on
things
like.
L
Is
this
an
appropriate
mortar
joint
for
the
brick,
but
I
also
think
it's
worth
noting
that
design
standards
are
rooted
in
the
Secretary
of
the
Interior
standards
for
rehabilitation.
They
do
not
always
follow
closely
the
Secretary
of
the
Interior
standards,
but
the
principles
are
the
same.
The
retain
repair
replace
when
necessary
principle
is
the
same
and
I
think
that
it,
it
would
be
worth
letting
Ms
Kathy
make
the
decision
for
herself
whether
or
not
her
feedback
on
the
appropriateness
of
what
their.
What
they
have
is
falls
under
the
guidance
of
technical
or
not.
Q
So
if
you
want,
if
you
want
to
ask
them
to
weigh
in
you,
just
need
to
Z2,
make
a
motion
and
vote
to
invoke
this
statute,
which,
but.
B
D
K
K
I'd
like
to
win
as
a
realtor
I've
been
practicing
real
estate
full-time
for
over
10
years,
and
so
my
automatic
go-to
database
is
a
multiple
listing
service.
So
during
the
hearing
I,
when
the
homeowner
was
asked,
if
he
knew
that
if
it
was
in
a
historic
district
or
not,
he
said
no,
but
then
I
looked
on
the
MLS
and
the,
and
it
was
presented
on
there
that
this
is
that
it
was
one
of
the
restrictions
of
the
property
that
it's
in
a
historic
district.
K
D
K
I
guess
overall
I
I
would
like
to
say:
I
mean
as
a
resident
of
Asheville
and
people
I
work
with
people
every
day
in
real
estate.
You
know
we
do
the
best
we
can
to
disclose
things
as
Realtors
and
different
interpretations
come
up
and
things
like
that,
but
I
think
overall,
my
stance
would
be
I
would
not
want
to
see
the
walls
come
down.
We're
not
making
a
decision
today,
but.
D
D
J
O
Q
H
What
some
other
contacts
on
that
on
the
site
visit
you
could
see
in
that
section
of
the
roadway
where
Cumberland
comes
down
this
weird
little
intersection
there,
but
the
roadway
is
well
below
the
house.
Is
you
have
to
go
up
to
the
house
and
then
you
go
back
down
to
the
pool
area
sets
up
on
a
null
into
my
knowledge.
L
I
would
say
that
if,
if
you
decide
to
come
back
with
the
same
proposal
that
you
have
today,
you
know
that
we
are
reviewing
as
though
it
were
not
in
place
that
you
provide
substantive
evidence
about
the
traditional
location
of
walls
in
Montford.
To
back
up
your
request.
C
G
L
P
Certainly,
from
my
perspective,
in
looking
at
that
precedent
that
you're
able
to
find
is
far
more
applicable
to
your
question
about
this
wall
in
this
location,
then
some
of
the
examples
that
you've
provided,
which
were
obviously
for
yards,
you
know
I
think
that
I'm
I'm
looking
for
in
my
ability
to
vote
for
the
wall.
The
way
it
is
I'm
looking
for
a
pretty
substantial
evidence
that
you
that
what
you've
chosen
to
do
in
your
backyard
is
traditionally
what
was
happening
in
backyards
in
Montford
and
so
far
I
don't
feel
like
I
have
that.
D
G
P
And
that's
certainly
within
the
in
the
standards,
for
what
we
consider
as
well.
We
have
we
have
take
a
different
approach
to
backyards
and
back
additions
in
the
back
of
houses
versus
the
fronts
too.
So
that's
all
clearly
spelled
out
in
the
standards
in
a
way
that
I
think
is
is
easy
for
us
to
continue
along
that
road
with
distinguishing
between
front
yards
and
backyards,
but.
B
G
B
D
D
Q
H
F
Got
the
packet
two
weeks
before
so
not
passing
around,
so
we
can
actually
go
and
do
site
visits
because
we
all
go
on
the
excitements.
That
would
help
us
if
you
find
the
SE
things
that
are
historical
walls
and
wouldn't.
And
how
and
commissioner
McDonald's
back
to
the
point
is
how
this
that
relationship
of
internal
walls
in
backyards,
separated
from
Perimeter.
D
F
D
G
Mean,
as
you
mentioned,
the
ultimate
goal
was
for
the
community
to
see
the
landscape,
but
can
we
not
just
increase
the
amount
of
landscaping
around
the
wall
with
that
not
satisfied
the
commission
to
just
simply
add
more
mature
landscaping
or
increase
the
amount
of
landscaping
we
were
talking
about.
You
know,
there's
a
privacy
feature
to
this,
that
we
preferred,
and
you
were
saying
well,
you
know
it
wouldn't
have
mattered,
because
the
gold
there
was
going
to
be
mature
landscaping
around.
F
When
you're
introducing
something
new
that
would
have
been
four
feet,
what
what
is
the
height
that
you
need
Ed?
It
was
five
five
yeah
and
then
so.
You've
exceeded
that
in
places
like
and
you've
made
it
a
different
material,
so
that
gets
away
from
the
standards.
So
we
have
to
we're
just
looking
at
the
standards
and
trying
to
jiggle
it
so
that
well.
G
F
L
G
Q
I
think
it
has
to
be
a
combination
of
things
right,
like
I,
think
that
can't
hurt
right,
but
then
also
everyone's
gotta
have
time
to
look
at
the
meeting
minutes
throughout
2018
and
then
also
get
the
shipment
technical
advice.
So
I
think
I
think
that
so,
but
certainly
if
you
want
to
beef
up
Landscape
landscape,
please
show
it
on
call
to
through,
especially
because
you
know.
I
Only
like
during
the
site
visit
so
it'll,
probably
helpful,
I.
G
H
But
you
can
also
do
the
rendering
too
that's
easy
enough
to
do,
and
I
made
a
mistake.
The
reason
I
couldn't
do
that
August
one
before
when
we
were
talking
about
scheduling,
is
I'm
out
of
the
country.
So
if
we
can
do
September
yeah.
M
Q
Q
F
So
I'd
like
to
move
to
have
the
state
historic
preservation
officer,
add
technical
support
to
this
case
application
application.
Second.
P
N
Q
Q
L
Q
Q
B
D
N
B
Q
We
have
a
enforcement
process
where
we
issue
a
notice
of
violation
and
there's
a
hundred
dollar
per
day.
Fine,
that's
accruing
if
they're,
not
bringing
the
application
or
the
property
into
compliance.
We're
pretty
friendly
on
the
fine
front.
Janice
can
probably
speak
to
this.
I
would
say,
usually
nine
ninety
percent
of
the
time
property
owners
if
they
get
a
notice
of
violation
in
the
mail
they
reach
out
to
us
and
they're
like
oh,
what
do
I.
You
know
how
do
I
get
this
resolved
and
we
don't
assess
fine
so
long
as
that's
happening.
Q
But
if,
like
we
don't
hear
from
someone
for
a
really
long
time
and
or
they
just
are
working
with
us
to
get
it
resolved,
then
we
do
assess
fines
and
then
they
don't
want
to
pay
the
fine.
Then
that
gets
to
a
whole
thing
or
maybe
small
claims,
court
and
stuff.
And
thankfully
we
don't
usually
go
go
that
route
with
HRC
related
stuff,
but
it
is
extremely
time
consuming
and
not
fun.
Q
It
involves
usually
conflict
resolution
and
it's
obviously
worst
case
scenario
to
bring
in
after
the
fact
case
to
you
guys
it
just
happens
every
once.
In
a
while
and
I
would
say,
there
have
been
times
in
my
time
with
the
commission
that
the
commission
has
denied
an
application
and
the
person
has
had
to
retroactively
fix
what
they
did,
which
is
nobody's
favorite
thing
to
do,
but
it
just
it
just.
Q
Unfortunately,
it
is
the
way
that
it
is,
and
I
would
say
that,
unfortunately,
it's
also
oftentimes
people
who
have
lived
in
the
district
for
a
long
time
and
know
what
the
review
process
is.
I'm,
not
saying
that's
the
case
with
this
person,
but
I'm
just
saying
that's,
not
uncommon,
so
I
can
think
in
every
instance.
That
decision
was
appealed.
Q
Q
They
they
would
either
have
to
prove
that
we
had
some
technical
error
like
we
didn't,
follow
our
own
legal
notification
processes,
or
there
was
some
technical
issue
with
the
way
our
meeting
proceedings
went
or
you
just
acted
completely
out
of
I
like
this
or
whatever
you
just
made
your
decision
without
actually
tying
it
to
the
design
standards
so
goes
to
court.
No.
B
M
B
Goes
to
court
is
difficult.
That's
why
we
always
say
to
you
just
you
have
to
not
think
about
things
like
we've
had
cases
that
were
very
sympathetic
where
the
person
clearly
said:
I,
don't
I,
don't
have
money
to
to
just
I
didn't
know,
and
this
board
has
been
sympathetic
since
we
wish
we
could
consider.
B
We
can't
consider
that
and
so
I
think
in
that
case,
that
person
had
to
redo
a
fence
that
have
been
viable
but
was
given
time
and
time
to
do
it
time.
B
Q
And
certainly
we
can
have
more
discussion
about
this,
but
I
would,
if
we
can
like
get
to
this
second
applicant,
because
he's
been
very
patient
and
waiting,
although
he
did
tell
me
that
he
thought
the
discussion
was
interesting,
at
least,
but
the
his
item
is
very
simple,
so
if
we
we
can
discuss
after
maybe
we
get
to
the
public
hearings.
If
we
want
to
have
more
discussion
on
the
topic
of
enforcement
and
other
questions.
J
Q
And
all
of
you
for
being
here
today,
so
this
application
is
pretty
simple:
it's
for
adding
a
couple
of
Windows
or
sets
of
Windows
in
each
of
the
Gable
ends
on
the
front
and
the
back
of
this
house.
This
house
was
constructed
in
2014,
so
it's
obviously
a
new
a
new
build.
Q
Since
they've
originally
submitted
the
application,
they
did
submit
revised
Windows
specifications
that
are
aluminum,
clad
with
simulated
divided
lights.
Originally
they
had
submitted
vital
specs
so
that
got
updated
based
on
my
feedback
and
so
I,
there's
a
bunch
of
different
examples
of
arched
windows
and
and
Gable
ends
and
throughout
the
district,
especially
on
newer
construction.
So
I
am
not
noting
any
concerns.
I
think
the
light
pattern
is
consistent
with
the
rest
of
the
windows
on
this
house,
so
I'm
supportive
and
no
concerns
on
my
end.
Q
Is
a
new
house,
though
you
have
to
apply
the
standards
for
new
construction,
not
the
standards
for
Windows
right.
The
windows
windows
section
of
the
design
standards
is
for
historic
buildings
versus
new
construction,
and
this
isn't
even
like
non-contributing
there's.
You
just
have
to
look
at
the
standards
for
as
if
it
were
being
built
today,
basically
which,
in
my
opinion,
I
think
the
commission
would
approve
this,
as
is
if
it
were
not
not
built,
I
think
but
Maybe
I'm
Wrong.
Q
S
Hello,
my
name
is
Neil
O'farrell
I'm,
the
acting
general
contractor
on
the
project
and
and
I
guess
we're
proposing
to
add
these
operable
Windows
into
the
bonus
room
of
this.
To
make
this
the
office
space
in
a
usable
room
structurally.
It's
no
problem.
I
am
having
an
engineer
get
involved
because
it's
a
trust
modification
and
it's
a
requirement
for
the
city
of
Asheville,
but
structurally
there's
no
problem.
The
design
is,
do
you
guys
have
really
have
no
cat
in
the
fight
I'm,
just
the
required
work.
S
There's
a
set
of
stairs
and
the
house
existing,
but
it
is
not
compliant
for
that
to
be
living
space
and
the
homeowner
is
aware
of
that,
and
that
goes
back
to
resell
values.
It
cannot
be
listed
as
the
living
space
or
useful
space
until
they
upgrade
the
stairs
going
up
there,
but
something
at
a
time,
I,
guess
and
when
it
comes
to
completing
work
after
it's
been
proposed.
S
Q
F
Q
Q
F
S
F
L
It
I'm
glad
you
mentioned
that
because
I
you're,
not
the
only
one,
the
guidelines
if
we
were
looking
at
this
new
new
primary
design,
new
primary
structures
to
be
compatible
in
height,
roof
form,
scale,
massing,
footprint,
material,
detail,
fenestration
and
proportion
with
surrounding
historic
buildings
and
other
historic
buildings
in
the
district,
and
so
that
specific
guideline
kind
of
gives.
Your
standard
seems
to
give
a
hierarchy.
If
you
would
of
importance
when
you
look
at
the
context,
it
suggests
that
you
first
look.
L
I
thought
it
was
old
and
I
couldn't
figure
out
what
you
know
why
the
staff
report
didn't
you
know,
identify
any
issues,
because
I
was
looking
at
the
guidelines
for
Windows
as
well,
and
then
I
realized
that
it's
new
construction
and
it
seems
to
me
that
the
shape
the
arched
shape
is
not
consistent
with
the
vernacular
semi
sort
of
Craftsman
inspiration
for
the
building.
But
I
don't
know
that
that
makes
it
unapprovable
and
I
would
welcome
other
people's
thoughts.
C
J
E
D
E
Madam
chair,
based
upon
the
evidence
presented
to
this
commission,
including
exhibit
a
application
and
project
description.
Three
pages
exhibit
B
photos.
Two
pages,
Exhibit
C
manufacturer
specifications
exhibit
D
revised
window
specifications
received
July,
11,
2023,
exhibit
e,
and
the
commission's
actual
inspection
and
review
of
subject
property
by
all
members
except
I,
move
that
this
commission
approves
the
certificate
of
appropriateness
based
on
the
following
one
that
the
application
is
to
install
new
cases
and
trans
transom
Windows
within
Gable
ends
on
front
and
rear
elevations.
E
All
work
will
be
in
accordance
with
attached
and
approved
drawings
and
plans.
All
permits,
variances
or
approvals,
as
required
by
law,
must
be
obtained
before
work.
May
commence,
two
is
that
the
design
standards
for
new
construction,
primary
structures
found
on
pages
92
and
93
of
the
Montford
historic
district
design
standards
adopted
on
April,
14,
2010
and
amended
December
9
2019
were
used
to
evaluate
this
request.
Three,
this
application
does
meet
the
design
standards
for
the
following
reasons.
E
A
window,
size
and
location
are
compatible
in
placement
orientation,
spacing
proportion
and
scale
with
the
newly
constructed
primary
structure
of
those
and
those
of
surrounding
buildings
and
B.
New
windows
are
compatible
in
material
proportion,
subdivision
pattern
and
detail
with
the
newly
constructed
primary
structure
and
those
of
surrounding
structures.
Four,
that
the
action
and
improvements
proposed
in
the
application
before
us
for
a
certificate
of
appropriateness
are
congress
with
the
special
historic
character
of
the
Montford
District.
E
L
I
still
have
a
question:
is
there
some
documentation
that
we
could
receive
or
training
that
we
could
receive
on
economic
impact
or
what
what's
economic
hardship?
Because
you
know
we
have
heard
comments
today
about
you
know
the
impact
from
you
know:
people
in
the
room
about
you
know
the
impact
of
things
on
property
owners
and
I.
L
Q
Q
That
being
said,
we
do
have
in
our
ordinance
that
talks
about
demolition
by
neglect.
It
does
talk
about
economic
hardship,
I
think
there's
a
small
section,
but
it
our
demolition
by
neglect
ordinance
is
not
fleshed
out
and
I've
seen
other
cities
that
were,
and
it's
very
in-depth
process
that
involves
building
safety
and
all
these
different
things,
but
we're
talking
about
CA
applications,
we're
not
usually
talking
about
like
demo
by
neglect
necessarily.
So
we
don't.
B
In
place,
yet
that
would
be
an
ordinance
change.
We'd
have
to
make,
and
that's
the
only
place
in
the
statutes
in
the
historic
preservation
statutes
where
it
does
require
that
you
think
about
economic
impact
and
there's
actually
an
appeals
process,
and
that's
because
demolition
by
neglect
is
often
that
you
live
in
a
historic
district.
You
can't
afford
to
fix
up
your
house,
your
house
is
falling
down
and
a
commission
may
move
to
say
you
need
to
make
this
bring
this
up
to
standard,
I
am,
and
so
I
think.
I
B
Flip
side
there
are
people
say
that
that
do
have
the
means
to
keep
something
up
benefit
from
getting
maybe
a
landmark
step.
You
know
status
and
then
don't
do
anything
and
the
building
starts
to
fall
apart
and
that's
when
it
would
be
nice
to
have
a
demolition
by
neglect
statute.
So
you
could
take
action,
so
I'd
have
to
think
about
I,
can't
think
of
any
training
materials
that
I
could
give
you
other
than
just
what
Alex
said.
It's
not
within
your
purview
and
that's
what
I
was
trying
to
mention.
I
know
it
becomes.
B
D
B
And
you
know,
but
it's
already
there,
but
the
best
we
can
do
is
say
you
have
to
try
to
set
that
aside
and
say
what
is
the
standard
and
if
somebody
came
along
tomorrow
with
the
same
proposal
again
you'll
see,
precedence
often
gets
mentioned
and
I.
You
know.
If,
if
we
you,
this
commission
has
approved
something
at
one
point:
it's
going
to
come
back
to
you
at
some
other
point
to
say:
well
you
approve
this
and
that's
when
you
start
to
get
into
the.
B
If
you
don't
approve
it
and
you're
using
the
same
standards,
there
could
be
some
legal
argument
for
somebody
to
say
now,
you're
being
arbitrary.
You
can
reach
us
you're,
not
really
following
your
standards,
you're
picking
between
people
or
situations,
so
I
can
try
to
come
up
with
something
but
I
I.
Don't
I
can't
think
of
anything
out
there
I
mean
I,
have
better
training,
I
thought
you're
going
to
ask
for
quasi-judicial
stuff,
and
you
know,
or
I've
got
some
great
articles
on
top
10
tips
for
historic
preservation,
Awards
and
commissions,
but
yeah.
B
One
it's
done
by
an
attorney
from
like
from
the
80s
or
something,
but
it's
all
the
same
things.
It's
sort
of
think
about
your
standards.
Don't
go
up
exactly
what
you
say
in
your
Preamble,
which
is
why
we
keep.
You
know,
keep
that
in
there
it's
kind
of
reminding
both
the
people
they're
speaking
and
yourselves,
that
it's
it's
not
about
opinions,
it's
not
about
it's
about
the
St,
it's
about
the
standards
and
you
really
don't
have
a
lot
of
wiggle
room,
whether
you
like
something
or
not.
That's
not
it
so.
B
Q
C
Q
Gonna,
it
was
like
no,
never
mind
yeah,
so
we
we
have
quite
a
lengthy
agenda
of
stuff
to
get
through,
but
a
definitely
Retreat
is
towards
the
top
of
the
list.
So
stay
tuned,
we'll
see
what
the
next
few
months
or
so
look
like
as
far
as
getting
a
retreat
on
on
the
calendar,
and
we
try
to
do
Retreat,
we
try
to
do
you,
know,
awesome
legal
training
and
then
potentially
some
other
kind
of
training.
But
then
we
also
try
to
do
something
fun
like
go.
Do
a
tour
or
whatever
we
can
come
up
with.
Q
You
know
be
mindful
of
everyone's
time,
but
it's
a
nice
if
we
can
do
like
you
know
from
like
nine
or
nine
to
like
three
or
four
or
something
it's
nice,
because
that
really
gives
us
enough
time
to
do
the
training
aspect
that
also
like
have
a
little
more
social
time
together,
because
I
know
you
guys
don't
have
that
many
opportunities
to
get
to
know
each
other
and
network
and
talk
about
all
the
things
so
so
yeah
we'll
I'll,
get
asked
one
of
the
executive
committee
members
to
give
an
update
to
the
full
commission
at
the
August
meeting.
F
Previous
HRC
award-winning
person,
map
of
code
is
hosting
is
Skyview
golf
tournament
yesterday
today
and
tomorrow
is
the
last
day
Thursday
it's
fun.
That's.
O
B
J
Q
Q
Definitely
doesn't
pop
the
Donald
Nicholson
One
close
close
though,
but
where
they've
replaced
a
bunch
of
curb
ramps
down
there
with
concrete
and
the
standards
call
for
Brick.
So
we've
been
I
came
to
the
commission
once
back
in
January
for
everyone
who
was
here
for
their
first
meeting,
which
was
six
hours
long,
that
we've
been
tugging,
pushing
and
tugging
with
DOT
on
since
then,
and
they
have
decided
out
of
the
balloon
to
change
course
and
do.
J
Q
The
city
would
have
to
maintain
them
either
way.
It's
some
weird
I'm,
not
sure
I
understand
why
that
Arrangement.
Q
They
build
they
build
them,
and
then
the
city
maintains
them,
but
but
yeah
I
mean
I,
guess
I
could
say
a
lot
of
things,
but
obviously
they
can
be
built
out
of
brick,
not
much.
We
know
at
this
point
so
yeah
that
that's
a
good
news
for
that
and
I
think
that
will
go
a
long
way
to
the
to
the
emergence
Association
of
saying
you
know
we're
all
in
this
with
you
and
doing
what
we're
supposed
to
be
doing
for
this
District.
So.
Q
Pretty
pretty
much
like
whoa,
what
are
you
gonna
do
about
it
City
and
we're
like
well
here's
what
our
normal
enforcement
process
is,
because
we
have
an
issue
to
notice
a
violation
to
them
just
because
they're
we're
just
trying
to
work
this
out,
and
we
told
them
what
our
next
steps
would
be.
And
then
we
I
thought
it
would
just
go
to
the
legal
department
to
be
a
a
you
know,
prolonged
battle,
but
so
I,
your
guess,
is
as
good
as
mine,
I
I,
don't
know
yeah.
Q
B
Q
I
have
I
have
a
couple
of
other
things,
sorry
and
then
I'll
stop
talking,
but
these
things
are
just
coming
to
me
in
the
moment
next
Friday
public
event
for
pack
square
visioning,
if
you're
interested
I'm
sure
it's
on
our
website
on
the
PAC
provisioning
project
page,
that
will
be
probably
the
last
public
engagement
event
before
that
document.
The
vision
plan
gets
published
the
net
the
Friday
after
that
is
the
next
public
engagement
event
for
missing
middle
housing
project.
Q
If
you're
interested
in
chiming
in
with
that
Annie
I
actually
have
to
talk
to
you
about
that.
Okay
and
then.
F
Q
Q
And
the
missing
middle
housing
events
would
you
mind
grabbing
that
real
thing
darn
it,
and
there
was
the
third
thing
I
had
was
important
and
it
just
went
out
of
my
head
or
I'll,
send
out
an
email
if
I
think
about
it,
but
anyways,
just
just
to
make
sure
you
guys
are:
oh
I
know
what
it
was.
They
can
see.
I'm
planning
and
zoning
commission
I
thought
of
you.
Q
If
you
need
something
else
to
do
when
you
leave
us
anyways
I
I'm,
just
bitching
that
out
there
just
because
I
think
our
our
staff
liaison
to
that
commission
is
he's
new
ish
he's
been
with
us
for
like
a
year
and
a
half
but
probably
isn't
as
networked
as
might
be
helpful
to
try
to
get
some
new
members.
That
might
be
a
good
fit
for
that.
Q
B
I
B
B
D
B
D
I
Q
Possibly
I
don't
know,
I
can
find
out.