Beacon, New York Planning Board Meetings, 8 Mar 2022

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From YouTube: Beacon Planning Board 3-8-22

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March 8, 2022
7:00 PM
Planning Board Agenda
Regular Meeting
Miscellaneous Business

1. Continue public hearing for SEQRA environmental review on applications for Subdivision and
Site Plan Approval, "Beacon Views Townhouses" 40 units, Conklin Street, submitted by
Beacon Views, LLC (postponed at applicant's request)

2. Continue public hearing on applications for Subdivision (lot merger) Approval and Site Plan
Approval, three-story mixed-use residential and commercial development, 364 Main Street,
submitted by O'Donnell Construction Corp.

3. Continue review of application for Special Use Permit and Site Plan Approval, hotel and event
space, 1113 Wolcott Avenue, submitted by Prophecy Theater, LLC

4. Continue review of applications for Site Plan Approval (revised since 2019) and Subdivision
Approval, "Two Cross Street", 4 Cross Street/172 Main Street, three-story mixed-use building,
submitted by Hudson Todd, LLC

1. Zoning Board of Appeals - March meeting
2. Consider request for one 90-day extension of Subdivision Approval, 32 North Street,
submitted by MLM Property Management, LLC

1. Certificate of Appropriateness - 473 Main Street; signage
2. 416-420 Main Street; Sign for Central Green Space

A

So um we're in workshop and uh john has agreed to share with us some of his research on the subject of heat island.

B

A

And um should be interesting, especially in relationship to how it might relate to some of the work we review here. That's.

C

A

C

uh So for the audience, the regular meetings start at 7 30.

A

Yeah exactly thank you.

C

C

I've been really interested in the heat island effect and how it might affect our future in climate change. um For those not familiar with the phrase, cities tend to be much warmer than the surrounding countryside. They capture heat, they, the heat, gets bottled up between buildings and reflected off asphalt and other impermeable services, and so cities tend to be somewhere between two and eight degrees warmer than the surrounding countryside, and that leads to a lot of problems um and surprising to me, heat kills more americans each year than all other weather related effects.

C

So you hear about tornadoes and hurricanes and all the rest of them, but he kills more people every year by far than- and nobody has an absolute number on how many people it actually kills, because it affects the heart and other sorts of issues that might end up on a death certificate. So um he'd also hotter cities lead to more violence, more aggravation, more crime, and so, as climate change and global warming gets worse.

C

uh What happens in cities, um as you can see from this graph, that the closer the buildings are more downtown more impermeable services, the higher the heat goes up, and so how do you bring that down or regulate it, such that it isn't a incentive not to live in cities, um cities otherwise have a lot of environmental benefits?

C

In fact, um doug kelbaugh who's written about these issues, and particularly climate resiliency in cities, calls cities the last best hope of our civilization that that's how many much benefits come from living in the cities from climber's perspective.

C

So if you look at lower greenhouse gas production, much more efficient energy use because you have smaller closer housing units.

C

Less water use more transportation, affordability, there's more options about how to get around, so you don't have long, commutes and running up your gas bill, which is important these days, and residents and cities live healthier and longer lives on average, and that surprises a lot of people. But urban living is actually much healthier and good for the planet on almost all measures except the heat island effect, and so the.

D

C

If um the global trend towards urbanization all over the world uh has all sorts of benefits beyond the sort of physical stuff there's higher education levels, more innovation comes out of cities, better health, as I said before, people move to cities tend to have lower population rates, which is also good for the climate.

C

More people live in cities, the less nature is impacted in biodiversity and uh extinction, levels of other species and the whole rest of it. Agricultural protection there's just a slew of reasons. Why it's? If you're environmentally conscious, you should live in a centralized place, but the hebrew eiffel in effect, uh what kell ball calls the parrot.

C

The thermal paradox is all these good things for the climate come out of cities, but the heat island effect might be such as temperatures warm more and more that it chases people away from the cities, and you lose all that climate benefit people buy their acre house on an acre in the countryside because they can't stand the heat in the summer.

C

um So how do you fix that? So if you want the cities to survive, you want them to thrive. You want them to be the benefit they are in terms of climate mitigation.

C

How do you mitigate the urban eat hollow? In effect? That's the question. So here's a map that I've shown before I think that shows greenhouse gases by location by zip code. Essentially, and so if you go down to manhattan, uh you know 28.8 30 metric tons per year per household.

C

If you go up the beacon, it's 44 and a half, if you move out into fish gill and more commutable areas, it's up in the 80s, so beacon isn't perfect. It's not manhattan green manhattan, but it is relatively good from a greenhouse perspective. But if you turn the tables and look at the temperature levels, the exact opposite is as you'll see on that heat map.

C

The one on the top is like from one of the hottest days ever recorded, 110 degrees, and you can see all over the city. This is manhattan. I mean new york city, there's hot hot spots everywhere.

C

Generally speaking, you get hot spots between the major park systems and the water waterfronts, uh wherever there isn't good breezes and their lower scale, buildings help with um winds and and the exchange of temperature and that sort of thing, and obviously the park central park and prospect park and all the major green systems in the city lower the ambient temperature around them to a certain degree, but even suburban areas.

C

If you look at the thermal map of rooftops they're creating their own heat, it's just mitigated by a lot of greenery around them, more more greenery around them. So.

C

D

C

So I've come up not me. The research shows that there's four basic levels, how you reduce the urban heat island effect.

C

The first one and the easiest and cheapest one actually the most cost effective one is the paint, roofs white there's a measurement called libido that measures the amount of radiant energy that reflects off the surface of some surface and heads back out into space that doesn't create heat that reflected um rays of the sun.

C

And so, if you just paint rooftops white um or other there's now other versions of colors that are just as reflective as pure white, because white gets dirty fast and you lose some of that. But even that new york city has a cool cities program in which they've pumped a lot of incentives into people painting their flat. Roofs, white and they've planted something like five million square feet of of um rooftops white and it's made a significant difference and buck for buck.

C

That's the cheapest thing to do is just paint the roof white that helps or put on light shingles or a tin roof as opposed to a you know: black asphalt, shingles and everybody should probably be doing that whether you live in a city or not, but a lot of people, don't like the looks of white roofs. It's kind of jarring and odd, so there's obviously other reasons other ways of dealing with this that maybe aren't as efficient, economically and in terms of reflective value, but have other values.

C

You know like green roofs, so green roofs absorb more heat, but they through the photosynthesis and transport, the transparation project, inspiration process, they um absorb that heat and use it for other things, other than producing um heat in the environment. They put out enough vapors and and um reflected heat that they are much better than your standard asphalt, roof.

C

Something like a quarter of the average city is rooftops and something about a third of a city or more can be pavement. So you can see how much, if you have black asphalt and black rooftops you're, just asking for the absorption of heat and that radiated heat just keeps coming up and coming up.

C

B

C

At every rooftop, certainly the flat ones where it's easier to do should be either one of four things. They should be either green. They should be reflectible and that's usually white paint or something the equivalent. They have modern treatment systems but light light colors.

C

They should be usable by people or they should be energy producing with solar panels um and then obviously, the best of both is to have more than one of those features like you have a white roof with solar panels or you have a green roof with solar panels.

D

C

A usable tree roof with greenery on it. Yes,.

A

How does the criteria of a usable roof reduce the impact of heat gain? No.

C

It usually doesn't, but it's just the point being, is that you shouldn't just let your roof, be tar or asphalt or something bland and having no use.

A

Therefore, a green roof makes the access and use of that type of space more attractive.

C

Generally speaking, people don't put terraces on roof without any greenery, so you you tend, if you're going to make it a usable roof, it becomes at least semi-productive in terms of greenery, um and even even a wood. Decking is better than a black asphalt membrane.

C

So that's sort of the the pitch is the to for a planning board is to- and I know we don't have anything in our code that requires anybody to do a green roof or a white colored roof. But you can suggest these things. You can.

E

What are the structural implications of doing a green roof depending on how you, because you now have the weight of planters you're, adding.

C

I mean there's people who design green roofs and they do cost more money than a regular membrane roof. I'm sorry.

E

About to retrofit it to an existing building, do you have to sometimes do structural upgrades or no no.

C

I don't think so that they.

E

You know unless.

C

I I don't think you would have to you'd have to analyze it and there are very lightweight aerated source.

F

Soils yeah, so you have to do structural upgrades.

A

It depends on the situation depends on what you're trying to plan up there. Yeah.

G

Evaluation, there are companies that provide like flats of sedums in a lightweight soil that usually can be accommodated within the like normal.

D

G

Roof loads and a roof there. There are systems that you can buy, but they're not like they're. uh You know they're sort of plain. If you go to the beacon um uh the clark institute down by right, there's a green roof on that, and it is also sedum and it's it's. It's meant to absorb the water, there's a lot of practical water retention aspects to it that are, and as well as the solar aspects.

G

But if you want to have planting like trees well,.

E

Yeah, that's that's, but I think it's just something to keep in mind that there are implications to some of these. You know if it's a retrofit of an existing building.

A

Just curious: do you know of municipalities who have adopted codified requirements.

C

A

There's significant model code for this.

C

I think you could certainly I've seen references to certain cities have requirements for either green roofs or white roofs.

D

G

In new york city, you have to use a green roof or a blue roof, which is a water retention system or uh some sort of planted, or there are a couple different options, but you have to in the solar is another option, and that does not come up to me exactly what it is. But yeah.

C

G

A requirement they have.

A

One of my clients has even gone so far. This is in new york city is to establish bee colonies on their roof and.

C

They make honey and they're branded. That's cool.

C

So that's something right now: the code um is an incentive group for green roofs in the central um main street district. Yes, it allows them it gives you can have them up to the edge where other things have to be backed from the edge. So.

E

C

Mild incentives and encouragements, but no requirement in.

E

Other states we have a do. We distinguish between a green roof that gets that brings incentives versus you know, plant things that are maybe more ornamental than they're actually functioning as a green roof.

C

Well, like I said, there's no requirement, so all we can do at this point is encourage but they're permitted in the central mainstreet district and I think the linkage district.

E

If we wanted to find criteria like, let's say an applicant said well we're interested in doing a green roof index, you know as a as part of a you know, an application. Could we find criteria to say? Well, we.

H

Would consider.

E

X, y and z, you know a fully functioning green roof and so that you know, if you're, if you're, offering that it's not just a couple of planters, it's these things. You know that we can then verify, or you know, review via design and approve.

C

We've been asking for it and you know: 208 had a green roof put on. I think I don't know if it's up there yet, but that was part of their approved site plan to wait main street and hopefully 364 will have some green elements.

C

So we haven't had any luck with solar panels yet, um but sooner or later,.

A

Do you have a sense that there's an appetite for the council to consider.

C

It's never been talked about that I know of, um but I don't. I don't think it's on her vote to bring it up. It could be something the planning board could recommend.

C

um So that's the first strategy is to deal with roofs. The second one is to plant trees everywhere and plant vegetation everywhere. Just make sure that you don't have exposed pavement for the most part, and so a lot of cities have set uh tree cover, goals and 40 seems to be the you know, sort of aspiration that if, if you measure the tree covered by aerials, you get 40.

A

Is that lower one, the view of durkins from the top of east maine say again, the lower the lower photo.

A

C

So I was just showing that historically, there were trees on main street, not everywhere. You look at some postcards. There's almost nothing this one. For some reason, the east end seemed to have a lot more trees than the west end, and even now the the uh the east end tends to have more.

C

But if you go to a certain section of main streets, you may have trees along the street, but they're providing almost no shade or very little shade. Now, maybe over time, they'll grow up, but a lot of the species that have been planted in smaller species that work with sidewalks better but don't necessarily provide abundant shade, and the idea, I think, is to create canopy trees as much as possible so that you don't have exposed pavement and there's other places like here around fountain square, where you can't see a tree in sight.

C

You know, there's there's like nothing.

C

So if you look at the beacon from the air, we have it's a terrific location for a city, because it's surrounded by uh natural and park land on the east, over 3, 000, acres of of natural and parkland of protected land on the east slopes. And you have the hudson.

D

C

On the west, which gives you that sort of breeze from the ocean to the mountains uh that tends to create it and even the block system might be created. I have no idea if this is why they thought about it when they set out the block system in beacon, but it runs from west east on a bit of us from northwest and north.

I

C

Which is the prevailing wind pattern coming off the river, so in theory uh the winds tend to blow down the streets rather than being blocked by the buildings necessarily depends on how you camp the blocks.

C

How good a wind patterns you have and beak it is set up, although main street has that curve on the end which sort of blocks it at the far end, uh but, generally speaking, beacons should be in good shape in terms of his general area.

C

But if you look at it, you know the obviously that you can see the tree cover is intermittent at best in the in the city center, so the idea would be to take that and within the city, grow a 40 and have that as a goal put a certain amount of budget into it each year to plant trees to save existing trees to make them grow better to care for them, so they don't end up dying in five or ten years, which a lot of street juries do.

E

Is there anything that we would have to change in terms of approvals and in terms of layouts of of you know, main street buildings versus sidewalk size? You know the size if you want to have trees that are going to create shade and enough of a canopy.

E

Does that mean we need to be providing bigger setbacks from main street so that you can have larger well areas? For I.

C

Have another solution, um trees in the parking lane.

E

And there's a traffic coming.

C

Yeah and it acts not only is the traffic calming it's a better environment for the tree, because you can create a deeper bigger well without impacting the sidewalk or heaving the sidewalk from the roots. There's always that competition between trees and sidewalks and one always hurts the other in the long run. um So in some places, they've started to put the trees in the street in the streets.

C

So, instead of having street trees, you have trees in the street and it it breaks up the parking lane acts as a better calming traffic calming element it's in front of the wires rather than under the wire. So you can plant bigger species more canopy that can flow over the street better because it just streamed on the back side rather than across the top, which kills the tree in the long run, and there are precedents for this.

C

You know I, if you go down to charleston, you see a lot of trees in the street down in the lower end of charleston. I have a couple examples from rhinebeck in which, even today, there's a tree in the street on one of the side streets. They just cut this one down, unfortunately, but historically, that you know the trees used to be in the streets.

C

They just were banned from traffic, so in order to make it easy for the for the cars they've banished the trees to the sidewalks, which makes it difficult for the pedestrians, but who cares for them right? um So I'm not saying that this is going to work on main street and you have sewer and water pipes to deal with that's the sort of the main constraint and snow plows. I'm sure that without always come up when you deal with this.

C

But even you know right now they put the new bump outs and curb extensions on main street. That makes it more difficult to plow, so they have to be a little careful, so they can work around trees as well.

C

Most of these things work on residential streets, but even in commercial streets in certain places they have trees in the parking lane and it's a way of really um giving the trees room to grow and.

A

Found all those extra parking spots, john well.

C

Not really because you know, there's always a space between trees and you have a two foot. Bumper.

A

So what you're saying is that you don't think it would have much of an impact on available parking.

C

A

This kind of, I think you could.

C

Work out the parking issue, I think the soar and water pipes issue is probably a more problem problem.

F

Yeah problematic thing: storm water, sewer, gas, yeah.

A

Big infrastructure.

C

So usually, these are designed as new streets rather than registered yeah, but depending on where the pipes are.

F

J

um Broadway in newberg used to have trees going down the middle of it.

C

I used to have a trolley down the middle, I'm not sure they ever had trees down the middie, but.

D

They have had, you know.

C

I've proposed that for um route 9d instead of having the 2a left turn lane have trees down the middle and have turning pockets. But again it's.

B

D

C

Them in the middle than it is along the curb line, because that's where the pipes tend to be generally speaking depends on street. And now I think this is the last slide.

C

So here's a parking lot on henry street the way it is now which has almost nothing in terms of shade and has a lot of other issues, and so the main street access committee retrofitted this and you ended up with 12, more parking spaces and dozens of more trees centuries, and you can even provide what they call tree diamonds in in the corners of parking spaces. So you create a park a tree every four day, six spaces without affecting the parking count, because the the track is a curb stop.

A

Train station uses that, what's that up in the north parking lot, the train station uses that do.

C

A

Yeah they're very high, though so.

C

They're undesirable.

A

Spaces, you run the risk of clipping your bumper yeah.

C

The the newer ones tend to be actually very low and have breaks in them so that.

B

They can be.

C

Used for storm water, so they actually absorb water as opposed to repel water.

G

Yeah one of the things that I've noticed uh adams when they built the adams parking lot for the new items up down there on 90 r09.

G

They had um uh swales in the medians between the parking rather than having uh stops and a raised area like a curb area. They actually depressed it so that all the water went into these long, gravel filled, deep, gravel filled, they're. Obviously, water infiltration areas, and they look really nice they're safe. Because you don't you can't, there's nothing to damage your car against right and it seemed dirt cheap and um attractive. So I was wondering if there are there's something like things like that that are like best practices for both environmental.

G

You know water mitigation and groundwater improvement. That sort of thing that you can do in these very large. We only have a few of these really large parking areas, but they're the sort of thing that generate a lot of rain water right and that's pollution.

G

Although all the bits that are coming off your car get into the creek and into the hudson- and you know we could use it as a as an example. I think if we use those kind of best practices and demonstrated it and how well it worked or for other other projects, yeah.

C

We're probably one of there was two other things, and I wasn't only going to mention. I didn't have any slides on them in terms of addressing it: fewer cars, your car trips, so cities are good at that uh providing a transit and other options, because that creates a lot of waste heat and the last one was past passive energy systems. So you don't need as much air conditioning, so you have natural flow of of, um as opposed to relying on closed windows and air conditioning all the time, because that just recycles heat into the environment.

C

So those are the four sort of techniques we have to deal with in order to combat this, and you can, through a combination of things, bring that temperature down where it's equivalent with the rural area. um But you have to work on all four of them.

A

Yeah, my only other question on this. We don't have to go into it in detail. Let me just hold it over. Is you know.

B

A

On a large scale, could this have some impact on the effects of global warming.

C

A

A

Thank you, john, very interesting and um yeah be curious to see where your studies further take you, especially as it relates to how this might enter into the conversation city.

A

Okay, so we'll move into our regular meeting. um Welcome everyone to the march 2022 meeting of the city, beacon planning board, we'll um as our first order of business, uh discuss last month's meeting notes and um accept any input on changes or amendments. I always look to karen because she's good at coming up with a few you.

K

Good good, no changes.

A

I'll accept a motion to accept motion motion by jill seconded second by lynn, all in favor aye, aye aye. Thank you uh that takes us to our agenda and for anyone interested in our first agenda item, which was beacon, views, town houses at conklin street. That's been postponed at the applicant's request, so we'll move then quickly to item number two on our agenda, which is the continued public hearing on applications for subdivision.

A

You forgot your tie. Lot: merger approval and site plan approval. This is for a three-story use, residential and commercial development at 364 main street good evening. Good.

L

Good evening, mr chairman, uh if I may, uh taylor palmer with the law firm of cutting and fader on behalf of the applicant uh you'll see, the tie will make an appearance, uh there's other matters on this agenda. So.

A

That's it no more masks ties come off too. I.

L

Have three rotations the mask the tie, but you're killing all my punch lines? um I do see that mr russo has worked hard on his beard over over the last few months, so very impressive. um If I may, as the chairman mentioned, we are uh before you in connection with our continued review of our application for a site plan and subdivision uh review for the project. uh Just by way a brief update, we did submit a supplemental submission to you dated february 22nd that followed our february 8th appearance uh at the planning board.

L

We did include further building refinements and updated building designs and rea is going to really speak to a lot of these, because we also have some well the rendering is already up, I'm so surprised, so that detail's already been included. We'd also note that sheet, one uh of the update of the plans now shows the future easement area um running to the beacon natural market. So we incorporated that onto the site plan.

L

I will note, as in our uh letter, it did show the removal of three parking spaces for that uh potential future easement area, but it will only be two so that will be included in upcoming submission. That was just an overlay from the surveyor um we did not so that would actually leave us with 40 total space parking spaces.

L

We did also submit, as I mentioned, uh the updated rendering, which is up on the board, for you and aria did also speak with mr russo. With regards to the updates to our green space calculation. um Again, we are here for the continued review. uh Aria will also speak to the updates from the arab subcommittee. I understand that the continued review will not be this week, but will be uh next week on that on this particular application, um and then we'll certainly turn to the public through any additional comments.

L

So I'll turn on ra just to go through the updates of the actual plans.

E

Thank you. Do we have a meeting scheduled for this friday, arb yeah.

L

I think it was a move well.

E

A

That's the next week.

E

Two weeks I did, and I probably didn't look at it closely enough sorry, two weeks, okay, thank you.

M

Good evening so um yeah we made some adjustments to the site plan and landscaping in front of the building to maintain the required pedestrian clearway and made some other adjustments to the landscape that we discussed at the last meeting as well as taylor mentioned we're showing that potential easement on the site plan.

M

um We also met with the arb a couple weeks ago and made some further changes to the building design that you can see up on the screen.

M

I I just got these renderings, so they weren't submitted. um You know to with what you got, because I I just received those a couple days ago, but basically they reflect a lot of what we talked about. They show some of the landscaping. The building is all red. Brick.

M

We on the side, elevation, there's a um stair bulkhead that leads to a roof garden for the tenants on on the you know, at the top of the building, so that creates a little tower element, the building's all red brick. Now it's going to be that that red sort of beacon, brick with the mixed um hues, the windows are larger and then, as I mentioned, there's also um I'll just say: the uh plans for a second so there's a roof deck with um plantings and that that's for the tenants on on the roof.

M

We're also showing a proposed solar panel location, and you know we have to look into that and make sure that's feasible in that location and with that amount. But we are going to be looking into that, so we will be removing as many heat islands as possible and uh you know, and and we do have the plant thing um in front of the building and along the side of the building downstairs.

M

So those are the main changes I'll just you know, since you haven't seen these I'll just uh put these up for a minute, but it's yeah.

A

If I understand correctly, the the tower piece is an elevator overrun. Is that right.

M

um It's the elevator and there's a stair that also goes up so that that's the bulkhead for the elevator and stairs.

M

You know I'll I'll submit the um renderings, you know for the next submission and we're also going to discuss those with the arb at that meeting on the.

N

M

But but the the renderings incorporate a lot of what we talked about so far.

A

M

So I think yeah, that's really the update for.

A

Okay, great, thank you um just as far as the arb review. I know.

D

A

Group had requested a streetscape view, um so I'm assuming that's something you're going to bring with you to the next arb.

L

Right so the one that was just submitted the other day. That was just the the street view this view. The other two now incorporate some of the other um components in the immediate area, the um the villagers building and then also salvation army. So those are on the other two renderings they just weren't submitted to the board at this time. Okay,.

E

They were flashed up there for a second, but.

L

Yeah, all right just go to there, but yes, they will be submitted and they will be reviewed with arv.

A

Right, the idea being to provide more context more surrounding there. You go okay,.

L

Right so these these two renderings have this around the enjoying abutting each on each side.

A

A

Yep, great and.

G

We don't have those.

A

G

Do you have a view from the other side.

L

E

From the mosque side from the side.

L

Or the teaching center.

G

E

O

E

A

Okay, thank you thanks. So we'll.

C

A

From our planner and engineer on any of their current observations, just make sure that we're uh addressing those john, why don't you.

G

Can I make if we have a week? I don't know if this is too difficult, but um I it's it's. I don't know if there's as much context as I had expected to be honest of the other buildings and it's it would be helpful to have the old church, the more the church and more the other context, and I I don't know if this is too late- he's already gone through the process, but that's.

B

Kind of what I was.

G

Expecting just as a comment.

A

So, for the review in two weeks sounds like what kevin's requesting is that there be more context shown.

L

Understood we'll consider it. I think this is beyond the scope of what typical site plan would call for in in the city's code, but we are certainly trying to make sure we put a lot of detail in there to make sure they that incorporates the adjoining and budding properties. But it does you know. Typically, a photo simulation is not a requirement of the site plan review. It's not a special permit either, but we will certainly look at that. We're trying to make sure we have it all accounted for.

G

But you know: we've we've requested and received uh unique. We've requested additional things beyond the minimum. Oh.

L

No indeed, that's why we have the photo. We have three different angles, too, of the other ending which is atypical, it's usually between maximum one or one or two in most projects that we review. But certainly we hear the comment.

A

Yep, we appreciate the accommodation. Thank you help. It helps with our review thanks john.

C

Yeah, I just um I'll note that, on the uh the arch architecture review subcommittee report based on the last meeting, it says for future submissions applicants should provide a proposed 3d, streetscape view of the new building that includes the church and 378 382 main, as well as a view from the west side in context from near the veterans place post office corner.

C

So I think we did expect something that was more expansive. You know to see how that building works with the frame of the 378 building and the church together. I think that's what we had in mind and that was conveyed in the in the meeting.

M

B

M

That and I spoke to the renderer about getting views and, and they were they were looking at specific locations. I think that was one of them. I mean she was trying to be realistic with the view as opposed to widening it artificially. But you know those are views from across the street.

M

You know from a couple different angles, so I'm not sure what else you'd want to see there well.

G

I've worked with I've worked with people that have been able to take photographs even from google street views and introduce perspective by keystoning the image and other things, and then doing renders on top of that yeah.

M

I know it's possible yeah. Well, I mean I mean that that's what they did so.

G

Yeah, no, no, I'm not sure if they did that work, it's not included in the crop. If it would be fine, I think if they just if it exists, and we just crop the picture differently, I.

M

I can find out yeah.

G

Okay, I don't want to be difficult. I just it's important.

C

C

There is a requirement in the code uh following up on our workshop, that uh trees in parking areas must be a minimum of three inch caliper.

C

So we would ask for the planning schedule to be adjusted instead of just a six foot or eight foot height, to require three three inch caliper for the parking lot areas, so that we can hope for more mature trees that provide more tr shade right from the beginning, um be nice to see more green planting on the roof, which shows a lot of terrace and some nice plantings, but not very much.

C

So you have a lot of roof covering that isn't in any sort of green condition, um and then the rest of it is are just more details. You know I'm asking for a detail on the raised planner and the east railing in the front gate and some of the other issues, but, um generally speaking, those are the last few things.

A

Speaking of the roof, were you here for a workshop heat island effect? Oh.

L

Sorry, I didn't get to do my I'm saving my heat island joke for the next presentation. But yes, yes, you.

A

Have an opportunity here.

L

We- and I think mr siegel actually stole it as well, so he but we are trying to reduce our heat island effect through the incorporation of some of those those mechanisms.

C

L

Solar being one of those assuming it's feasible, but we have laid it out so that it would be not only possible but assuming it's feasible, implementable, good work.

A

Thank you, mr rusev.

F

With regards to the lot line change plan, one of the things we're waiting for is to find, if there's an easement over those utility lines and poles that are running across the back of the parcel. I know you're in the process of researching that have you.

L

F

Any closer on that.

L

I can't speak for we'll we'll certainly provide an update, but I think those those details, the surveyors looking into just needed some more time based on the title report, but I think there was some. There was some evidence of of history. There.

F

Okay in the easterly corner of the parking lot on eliza street there's three trees proposed and they appear to be in conflict with one of the light bulbs. That's also proposed in that areas should be coordination between the lighting plan and the landscaping plan. I'm afraid that it's just going to block all the lighting out and then some of the others are just clean up. As far as the plan goes, you.

A

Made a note about signage, being legible.

A

Indicating location is saying.

F

Oh yes, yes, the the accessible parking, signage. Okay. That should be.

F

I would already I see if I could put that on the building itself, instead of right in front of the parking stalls, especially the no parking that you have right in the middle of the accessible handicapped right.

A

So they're still going to make it to the next iteration.

L

Great these are a lot of, I think.

E

L

T-Crossing I dotting items too.

E

May I ask a signage-related question: you.

M

E

Thank you. um The entrance from main street, the driveway on the east side of the building is there signage shown on site plans, for you know, do not enter or you know I'm just. I think we've discussed that this is going to be I'm sorry, it would be enter only do not exit. So is there going to be signage at that driveway intersection with main street, and you know any traffic direction? Is there going to be.

F

There is any other, there is signage on there. It's all faded out so that one of my other comments was they have to darken. It all bring it forwards.

E

A

Because I'm kind of wondering your answer is coming yeah.

B

We'll clarify it on the site plan, but yeah there was the intent to have one-way signs at the entrance and I believe do not enter is at the back end. So.

O

That you, when.

B

You're coming out, you couldn't go that way: yeah.

E

I misspoke the first time but yeah the junior editors will be back in the parking lot. um Any other signage proposed in terms of like you know, any kind of like commercial signage that identifies as a drive for or just the traffic signage, and one of the reasons I'm asking this I'm just kind of wondering because of that driveway being there and being a one, you know one unidirectional drive.

E

Are we gonna? Have you know signage kind of cluttering up the the streetscape where it meets main street? You know that we're not really thinking about right now in these renderings but it'll, be there.

C

I'm not aware yeah, I don't think, there's a need for a lot of signage there. I.

E

Would prefer to minimize it.

C

Is the really only critical one, and maybe an arrow on the pavement.

E

A

Speaking of the drive, I'm just looking at the rendering- and I know rendering sometimes don't reflect the real world situation. But there.

B

A

Going to be curb cutting happening at the sidewalk as it crosses the drive right. Okay,.

C

He shows us a tree in the street there did you notice that I don't know how you anticipated that, but it's in the wrong spot, yeah.

A

D

Didn't pick up on.

A

D

J

It's gonna make a right turn out of that drive. Oh that's! Oh that's only one way in.

E

My hand yeah, I still wish there was any way that we could dissuade the applicant from that driveway. Just because of the I think, I'm concerned about just the safety of pedestrians, and especially you know, on busy weekends. You know people spot a store that they're interested in and they notice a drive there that they can see if there's some parking for them to go check it out and they're.

E

You know making a snap decision as they're cruising down main street. Oh look store, driveway and you've got pedestrians crossing the sidewalk there. I just.

A

Key word: there would be dissuade we can't require. That's.

E

Right, that's why I selected.

G

It I don't know about that, I do we can ask for things and.

A

Not pass, we can, we can't right, we don't have the we have.

L

A

P

E

Hence my wording. I wish there was a way to dissuade right.

L

Trying to disrespectfully moved one ex we've removed one other side of the building as well, and we've reoriented a lot on the site plan to reflect those concerns.

E

Appreciated, I, I think that, and I guess the only reason.

A

I ask is, I think that my point is we gotta have one conversation.

E

I I just think that there could be a benefit of what could be done with the the design of the entrance and the pedestrian approach to the main entrance of the building where, in the long term, the attractiveness to you know, potential residents and the and the overall enhancement of the design of the building and the site plan might outweigh the benefits of that driveway that are currently you know perceived by the applicants and the designer that.

L

Also presumes that nothing will ever be constructed also at the salvation army property. The same is true of the mosque building I mean these were discussions. We had about the opposite side of the building, where we proposed the green space to access the rear. There was concerns about that being a sort of a vagrant alley. There's a lot of things that were discussed and associated with the the adjoining property would have the same right to build up to their property line, um and in fact this ultimately prevents it being.

L

You know right up one against one another assuming that ever were to take place, but we certainly appreciate those comments. We've worked a lot into the site plan, changing the facade of the building through the arb review, um to really reflect those changes and implementing additional green scape all the way up to the side. You know to the front of the building, all things to help beautify what is currently a metal rail that runs along there. So I think it's a significant upgrade from what's existing condition.

A

Suffice it to say the applicant has heard um significant argument against that drive from the planning board and the public.

A

And the application stands with the driveway, so right.

L

And we did review it through our traffic report with the traffic expert who indicated that was the appropriate traffic movements for the application site plan.

A

Thank you, okay! Well, that will go to the public, since we do have open public hearings.

J

Can we have comments? Do we come in after the public, then.

A

You it sounds like you'd prefer to comment before the public, so let's do that.

A

K

Ahead karen, I appreciate the work that's gone into it. I think it's come a long way due to the uniqueness of the site. um I would. I would um encourage you to continue the cornice on the east side of the building, because it it's basically a a two-faced building, and it just seems arbitrarily truncated, currently.

K

That's all I had.

J

um It's interesting that john's workshop today was about heat islands, because I was going to bring that up with the roof, which is a very big roof, and it looks to me like there's, there's some nice things going on there, but it also the the area for solar panels, for instance, seems arbitrarily small.

J

It's about two thousand two thousand square feet. I estimate, and I don't understand what all the other area is to the to the west and south. That's not really it's just blank space, I'm wondering what, if any, are the plans for the for those areas outside of the deck area.

M

Yeah I mean, after the heat island talk we'll speak to the owner about developing that as more green space. So right, right now, is this roof painted white.

J

I mean either green space or, if, if you have the the real estate for some solar panels, why not put them in that's right.

M

Yeah, we could look more. You know we're just not sure how those would be arrayed, but that space would also be available for that.

J

Because it seems like a really good location for solar panels and green stuff as well. But because we really like to encourage that as much as possible.

J

And I agree with extending the.

J

The roof bracket wait. What is it.

A

J

Thank you, the cornice on the east side, okay,.

D

P

um Yeah I'd like to echo the statement that I think the the application has improved significantly, I mean I.

P

I think that, um as we reflect back on the original application of four-story, I think that uh that decision you know to not seek that variance is a wise decision, because the scale of the building I I agree that the roof is out of proportion with the facade in terms of like what you would think, the vast scene of a building on main street and I think, there's an opportunity to uh take advantage of that large area.

P

On the on the floor on the uh on the roof, I agree with uh the idea that you know extending the cornice one thing I don't agree with is that the facade on the side? I I because it's not facing main street. I I feel like it's trying to pretend it's facing main street, and you know I I'm still not convinced that you know the the the side of the building reflects a building, that's not facing main street.

P

I don't know so I I guess it's a detail in my mind, but I think in general the building has improved substantially overall, and I appreciate that. But uh for me, buildings that face main street should represent that they're facing main street and the abilities that face the side should not pretend that they're facing main street as well understood.

E

Jc, I think the concern was that you see so much of that east facing facade as things stand right now, with the green space in front of the salvation army structure, and the applicant has has worked with the air b to make a number of changes to the design it started out with a combination, hardy board and brick facade and the entire west facing elevation was hardy board. At one point, they agreed to to go to a full brick structure.

E

um The window design was much different. It was originally like french doors, with kind of a small double hung on either side. It almost looked a little bit like a bow tie design.

E

The windows were changed to be a little bit more reflective of kind of a larger main street structure, and I think we talked about building a focus for that pedestrian entrance on the east side, so that you know what so we talked about how some of the buildings in beacon that are the buildings of face on main street, but are longer buildings like the the carriageworks that contains the beacon, pantry, they're industrial buildings and the sides of them are often pretty nondescript, but having this very exposed in a flank of the building.

E

There was an idea to create some some kind of drama around the pedestrian entrance and create some a focal point, and I think that it's actually come a long way towards you know to having two facades that are aesthetically. You know pleasing and evoke a lot of the elements of the of the kind of main street buildings that are in the vicinity like the the carriage the former carriage works, so just to film, that's kind of where we were coming from with some of this. Just in response to your comment.

P

Yeah, no, I I see what you say and I agree that that is uh the brick um the brick uh sort of vocabularies is, is, I think, a better improvement, and I also agree that the the bulkhead breaking up the bulk. You know having the bulkhead sort of interrupt the long, horizontal yeah.

E

The sharp one yeah.

P

Really helps um maybe visually diminish that monotony of a very long horizontal line, yeah.

E

The retail windows were enlarged on the first floor on the side on the east facing side, there were some elements created to to create vertical breaks in the in the you know that long east facade there's some decorative brick work to the north of the pedestrian entrance, so that that wasn't a kind of monotonous expanse of brick wall that faces the outside of the mail room. So yeah rea worked with us and made a lot of changes to try to do things that would, in addition to using you, know, natural brick.

E

We talked about to get some color variation and the vertical breaks so that it tried to make the building look a little less massive, because that was a concern. I think a lot of people had that it is a pretty extraordinarily wide building along main street uh compared to you know other buildings on main street, so anything to to break it up and and sort of give it some give it some. You know visual breaks and some interest so.

A

Anyone else, and so just a point of order going forward, so I don't get my head chopped off next time. My thinking and going to the public first is that perhaps some of our comments can be um informed by public comment. So but it sounds like the preference is to hear from the board first and then go to public.

Q

C

E

The option to respond.

C

Afterwards, don't.

E

Be cowed by the chairman come on.

A

I just I'm just curious.

G

Which would you prefer I've already.

A

G

I talk so much at the arp. I want to give people a break.

A

Anyone have uh anything they'd like to share. Please.

Q

Good evening, teresa craft, this section of main street is a nucleus of the town's history from early carriage wagon building days to fdr's new deal project where designers, architects and engineers built out many of the city's early infrastructures. This build out is too big for this section of town. Allowing this lot merger will continue to set a dangerous precedent not only for the rest of main street, but for other historic districts and significant structures in our small city. This project is referenced in the submission as three stories, but let's call it what it is.

Q

It's the new elephant being paraded down main street and it's really four floors and outdoor tenant space floor is still a floor. That's four. I have little faith in the bulk of this development's team's effort that this project will have significant architectural details that will make it blend into its surroundings.

Q

One only has to look down the street to see the building in construction with almost the same building team, it's flat as a cardboard box with no visually appealing architectural details. It looked good in the pictures.

Q

I keep looking at this project submissions package for drawings that place this new building into its surrounding neighborhood and not left up to the public to generate renderings, to show the city residents on social media. What this project will really look like, I see it was called out in the arb subcommittee report for future submissions, but the city and public have been asking for these for years. It's time for enforcement, I still see potential issues for public safety on the entrance.

Q

Driveway again, I urge this board not to approve the slot merger and the oversight site plan, as proposed, allowing it to pass with approval would be a another blow to the entire city and again this does not look like any public green space for the public, as we were led to believe we'd see here. Thank you.

A

O

Good evening, I'm stash yankowski, I'm not with the law firm, I'm not an attorney, but john. I I have to differ with you. I think the board does have the power to ask the developer to eliminate that east side. Driveway jennifer. If you look at the beginning of the planning board's code, there's something in there about landing board has the ability to make their own regulations the rules or whatever.

O

So I think you can say eliminate that um also. It goes along with john's presentation that you'd be eliminating all that asphalt, and it's amazing that they had a picture of the tree right there, because that's my idea, get rid of the driveway put in all the green space grass and then have some big trees along the east side, and that would help with the look make the building look bigger.

O

I totally agree with teresa building is way too massive way too big, but I'm I know there's no way you can force them to shrink it. They did take it down from four stories to three and that's helpful, and um I want to congratulate arie about the windows.

O

My major complaint about the building that that's above the old, pleasant ridge pizza place. Those windows are tiny, I'm glad they made these windows bigger, makes it look a little better. um I don't know john. If you saw last month's presentation that I did about how dangerous having that driveway there quickly I'll I'll say it again.

O

There's a scenario of a car going east the guy's really anxious to get in there.

O

All this traffic coming west he's sitting there he's ready to turn left into that driveway on the sidewalk, there's a woman with the baby and then a little girl next to her on the other side, on the east side of the driveway, there's a guy or girl, a woman with a dog and then all of a sudden there's a break in the traffic going west, and this guy that's been anxious to turn in the driveway he starts going into it and that little girl sees the dog.

O

She runs in front of the car and I won't go any further. You know what happened. I tell her in maine, it's very dangerous there. Many times I've had to just wait for people to cross it. They don't even look to see if there's a car coming just the other day, I was driving west some stupid guy walks right in front of my car. I rolled down the window and said sir you're glad I slammed on the brakes. Man I could have hit you. Oh, this is main street.

O

What kind of excuse is that for not paying attention, so I do think you have the power to get rid of it. Just have.

D

R

Don't need it the only the only reason.

O

They don't want to get rid of. It is going to cost them money to tear up all that asphalt and put in a green grass or whatever some nice big trees. They don't need that driveway they can go to eliza street. Go which way is that north analyzer turn into that parking lot and get to the back of the building.

O

They can still have the sidewalk along the side of the building, but the rest of it would be nice, green grass and with some huge trees, to help look at that um side of that building.

O

um I think that's all I have thank you. Thank you.

A

And just to be clear, we do have the power to ask that they remove it. We can't require them to remove it. Jennifer.

O

A

To just address your comments, yeah.

I

O

I'll try to know.

I

Because I know sash, you mentioned that section at the last meeting as well. That section would not give the planning board the authority to require the elimination of the curb cut in this instance.

O

I

To the ability of the planning board to adopt, as it has its own rules of procedure, um things governing its meeting dates and times and submission requirements and um membership of the board, you know ways in which they conduct their meetings, their procedures.

D

I

Would not give the planning board the authority that you suggest.

O

I

Cut is essentially- and this is set forth in case law- is essentially a part of a property right part of the property owner's rights as a as a property owner to to require the elimination of that without a sound. You know, safety concern, it would be potentially subjecting the city to to a takings claim exactly that. That's.

G

The reason why it was confusing to me is that I've worked in new york city and I've had to manage curb cuts right and those curb cuts aren't are owned by the city. There there's something that was built by the city and is used to accommodate individual users and there, if you had no no.

G

This is why I want to, since it's a it's a managed resource. The curb is owned by the city. The property is service. You know it's required in some cases, the service we don't allow them in many situations right, we've removed the city, I think, has managed curb cuts in many ways that we're not uh completely um that we're either cooperatively with an owner and or not right. There are curb cuts in many cases that are unsafe. If they're too wide you can make a curb cut.

G

That's in the the one in front of the mosque is an example of it. It's probably 25 feet wide and what that does is it eliminates parking spots and there might be public safety reasons or other things. They don't want people parking in front of that, for you know whatever.

G

I don't know, but it doesn't seem like uh it, it doesn't seem practical. Do you see what I'm saying I.

I

I understand what you're saying, unfortunately, the law isn't isn't always practical. Unfortunately, but um my strong recommendation to the board is you can ask, but you can't require you can't deny based on that, that basis. Thank.

A

You for that clarification, happy to.

I

Provide something further in writing or follow up with questions of individual board members, but that's my recommendation appreciate.

A

It thank you and that's that's what we have done to date, so I just wanted to make sure it's clear to everyone here on the board, which now it is and to the public, because I think so so every curb.

G

Cut on main street isn't violent. We don't have any control over.

A

I think what we just heard kevin is that there's there's limited room for debate, work or need for conversation around the subject: the law, okay,.

G

I mean nobody's scared of whatever.

A

I don't think it has anything to do with being afraid. It's.

D

B

The only thing I'd be afraid.

A

Of is subjecting the city to a lawsuit. So that's the point here just.

P

A quick clarification, if I can't the distinction is that this is a pre-existing condition. Is that not true if they were proposing a curve cut that didn't exist? In that case, it would be completely different scenario, so pre-existing conditions are unquote grandfathered in but by the law, but a new condition that would be proposed would be a different matter.

I

A new condition would be a different if it didn't already exist and it wasn't already part of sort of the bundle of sticks, the bundle of property rights.

P

Yeah, I think that's important for the public, more discretion.

I

In figuring out, does that location make sense, or should it be in a different location around the group.

P

So I think that's important thing that the public needs to understand that there are pre-existing conditions that we have limited control over, but new conditions. uh We have more control.

A

That's a good question point of clarification. Jc. Thank you. Thank you.

O

So would the developer be liable if someone got hurt crossing that driveway? The scenario that I gave.

A

That's not that's not a subject that we can answer or should even.

O

Try, well, I understand I'm just bringing it up for.

A

The developer for the planning board.

O

I'm bringing it up for the developer's ears.

A

Then we'll leave it we'll leave it at rhetorical. Okay,.

O

Anything else yeah one more thing. um I would like to see a picture or rendering from say the monster on main all the way over to the other side, not just what they provided a wider panorama. Thank you.

A

Anyone else from the public.

A

Sorry, did you have something.

E

Well, and just to be very briefly put the last two bits and as I've been listening, this conversation and continuing to look at that rendering, I think that's why you know was that was the basis of my comment before. Is that that pedestrian entrance is shaping up to be a very, I think, kind of a very neat and potentially very aesthetically.

E

Pleasing focal point with landscaping that you know and part of this project is, is to sell people on wanting to come and live here and- and I think you know again- I just think there's a it's worth applicant, taking a step back and looking at that, rendering considering how much more exciting and desirable the the main entrance for the for the residents that building could be made if the driveway was eliminated and the landscaping and the walkways for the pedestrians were really allowed to be pumped up a notch. I think it could.

E

It could really pop and that and that's good for business.

G

And I'll add to that, but and just uh I'll leave it at that um that we could retain the curb cut and put bollards in you know you wouldn't be taking away and use that as a paved pedestrian area that would have uh intermittent use and could be used for tables. It could be uh used to increase the rental and public. uh It's its use, its ability to have the public amenity for those spaces that are facing one of the few public spaces.

G

That is, that large in the city, which I think the comprehensive plan and other uh public forums have uh identified as uh as very important things to the citizens of the city, so that wouldn't take away the ability or the physical, um the physical.

D

G

Part of the of the curb cut and would allow its use in the future, but it it would also allow it to be not just a um a seldom used automotive thing that will be unattractive and unpleasant to walk along and look at and unsafe. So that's the last I'll talk about it. I think.

E

C

Safety put a note on the site plan that allows the developer and future if they want to not close it off. They have their right to do so under the site plan, and that would give them the option if they want to close it, and then it works out successfully. They think about it. In the long term,.

E

Yeah one of my work safety moments this week was that there's been a spike in vehicle pedestrian accidents over the last couple of months. That, according to our safety officer, was, was alarming and that's one of the reasons why it's been the safety element has been kind of weighing. On my mind,.

A

Did he give you any sense of why that's happening just curious.

E

What this phenomenon.

A

E

His take was his take, was attributing it to things like reopening, and you know people.

A

They did it the first time you know, like that's so frightening yeah.

M

E

A

Is obviously of utmost concern? There are countless curb cuts in situations like this along main street and every single one of them poses this risk. You have to rely on the say: you know pedestrians consciousness toward safety drivers consciousness towards safety. You know it's it's a collective thing to create a safe environment.

A

It's not just up to one sign or eliminating one curb cut and again, in this case, we can't require it to be eliminated.

L

In this case, you did eliminate a curb cut. We.

A

Did we eliminated one and.

L

Eliminated traffic, only in not coming out there's pedestrian concerns about the crosswalk, that's been removed. So there's we even looked at going in the site, the opposite direction and coming out this way. So this has been through the laundry machine back. You know and again.

D

L

And make sure it's the best, the most effective orientation. So we looked at it from more than one way to make this.

I

Function of the application.

E

O

E

Taylor, you, you brought up the topic of what other property owners might do in the future.

E

um In terms of you know how that impacts, what you can be relatively certain of you know and that you that you'll have access to- and I just before I forgot about that- I just wanted to kind of make a comment to the the planning board that um you know: there's- maybe not a ton of locations on main street, where there's still development and infill to happen, but things could change, but I think we need to revisit at some point the the kind of air and light issues, and you know what happens in terms of of uh you know if something does change with the salvation army property or something changes with the mosque or the or the beacon natural market property.

A

When's, the comprehensive plan do for another update.

G

It's 10 years: it's 10 years is up right. Yeah.

A

I mean that that just that kind.

E

Of thing falls.

A

Under the preview of a review of conferences,.

E

But we're hit, you know we're these things. They.

D

Always do interims.

A

Right, it depends on the city, and the city really has to make the call for that if we feel it's important and necessary. Part of that is through yourselves, the public, making the appeal to the city that zoning and issues like this need to be addressed by the city through a re-look at comprehensive plan through zoning. That's how that's how this happens, because at a certain point, when you get to the planning board, the law is the law is too late. We don't make them. We.

E

Administer yeah, but these issues are looming large with.

A

E

Projects and with you know, yep.

A

Yep, but what I just described is the mechanism for affecting that type of change. Thank you.

A

Anything else on your end,.

L

um The only thing is on our end that we'd ask the board. Consider authorizing uh a drafting of a resolution by no means requires any further action, just that we might be able to be in that position for a lot of t crossing, and I dotting.

A

We'll talk about that um we'll also hold hold the public hearing open until next month. So um we can, at this point talk about authorizing jennifer's office to generate draft resolution to adopt so any discussion or thoughts on the matter or otherwise. I'll accept a motion to do do just that.

K

It seems to me that there's still some issues about the roof and um the architectural details to be resolved.

A

It'll be a draft. We still have in two weeks work by the arb around the architecture.

L

And our supplemental will also incorporate those details from today's meeting for consideration at that meeting. So.

A

Part part of the effort process to not rush things, but move them along.

J

So that's in case everything looks good by next meeting. We can close the public hearing, I'd.

E

Really like to see those um streetscape renderings.

A

Yeah, it sounds like you have the opportunity to, and as long as the applicant's listening in two weeks see those.

G

I didn't see a plan that showed the easement with the parking spots removed for the uh it's.

A

G

I I think I may have had an.

L

A

Was just looking at it yeah.

L

It's on the sheet, uh I think she's, on cheap sp1, uh it's on sheet one site.

L

And it will be reduced from three spaces removed to two.

A

And by the note I take it that there's no current agreement in place.

L

There is no formal private agreement between the parties.

A

However, we last had.

L

Communication on friday, so they're in discussions regarding terms that.

A

Note allows for this current.

L

A

And any future to enter into an easement agreement with your applicant.

L

Right the agreement would be I I can't say that the terms of the agreement would speak to running with the land that would presumably be with the current tenant, and that would be a future opportunity for a future tenant if they needed it. That's.

A

That was what I'm saying: yeah, yes,.

L

Right we haven't discussed the the terms like we've been having some difficulty getting in touch or maintaining uh contact. At least the applicant has had difficulties, but one contacted last thursday saying because you haven't responded to multiple requests. I understand you may not be interested that got a response on friday saying I am interested, and so they remain in contact.

A

However, fact remains, you have indicated.

A

It just disappeared.

L

But we've removed the parking spaces from the plan and we've we've.

A

L

The area for a potential future easement area potential.

A

Ease in an access area for loading and unloading, only two parking- oh excuse me.

Q

No parking for the existing supermarket.

A

Use owned by beacon natural market or future owners. In the event, an easement agreement is executed and recorded.

G

Yeah, just my main concern was that you didn't include it as part of your parking account.

L

Correct we removed the parking we removed two spaces from the parking cap and we're still two yeah two over the required.

L

We would much prefer to have the parking spaces, but we're working by we, the applicant, prefers the parking spaces, but heard the board's comments and and reached out to beacon natural market. Thank.

A

You, okay on the matter of authorizing jennifer's office, to draft resolution I'll make the motion. Do. I have a second.

J

So just to clarify, if we don't feel that.

D

Things have been resolved.

J

Then we don't have to.

A

J

Okay, then I'll second, it.

A

Thank you second by jennifer joe excuse me all.

D

In favor aye, no.

A

Thank you. Thank you, okay, so with that we'll move to the next agenda item, which is the continued review of application for site plan, approval, a hotel and event space, 1113, walcott avenue, submitted by prophecy theater, and if.

D

She's waiting for you.

A

If you don't mind I'll ask for a quick, two-minute break, thank.

A

So we're ready to resume. This is again the continued review of an application for site plan approval. This is for a hotel and event space at 1113, walcott avenue.

L

Good evening again, uh taylor palmer with the law firm of cutting fader on behalf of the applicant I'm joined by our architect, aria siegel, as well as our project engineer, mike bodendorf, together with richard d'andrea from collier's engineering design, our traffic consultant we're also joined by the applicant this evening.

L

Just by way of brief update again, we did provide a supplemental submission to your board um following our february 8th appearance in connection with the continued review. There are some significant changes to the site plan, but I'll. Let really rich walk you through all that, because it's a very important details related to our parking traffic and otherwise management plan. That's been incorporated into our supplemental submission. Most obvious that you can see on the plans is the removal of the loop driveway uh from in front of the church building.

L

I think that was a big big change. We we heard the board loud and clear, um and we went back to the drawing board on that concept. uh We also spent a lot of time uh in the lab looking at site circulation coming into the site and again associating that with event, drop-offs and sort of the function and overall other components of the plan. And again, as I mentioned, that the parking traffic management plan goes into supporting our other considerations that we've identified about parking availability off-site.

L

Of course, this the site is under parked for the proposal. We did receive a recent building determination. We had a chance to meet with miss gray, together with uh the building inspector with respect to a parking determination. So now we have an official uh dave, buckley return determination regarding the ultimate parking variants that we did require.

L

So while the building inspector did confirm that the existing non-conforming use of the building as a church would have required 69 spaces and then pursuant to the 1964 exception, where, if we provided essentially we'd, be uh grandfather's, not the word but accepted up to 86 parking spaces, and that would be an increase of 25 over what was required. So that was the 1964 exception.

L

He made a specific determination, however, that because we require 136, total spaces and we are providing 32, which one we want up, one space from 31 to 32, based on the new circulation on the site. We require 104 space. What would be 104 parking space variants? Of course, the way we've identified, alternative areas off-site and other considerations that are part of our study and now the inclusion of the traffic and parking and circulation management plan.

L

It's our opinion, but that's for us to really work with the zoning board of appeals and, of course, your board to help justify those needs. We will be referred uh to these only board of appeals uh through the secret review, so this is not seeking an application for variance purely as an involved agency in the secret process, uh so we will be meeting with them uh next tuesday to go over the proposal, but again in the seeker context, not a formal area, variance application to the board at that time.

L

The last note I would preface for the board is that we also were at the arv subcommittee. I understand that they've uh they've, I don't know if it's called completed there, were you but they're, they've reviewed it to the point where I think it comes back to the the full board uh to consider those those recommendations. But we've made some big changes to the plans to try and um address a lot of your concerns, principally the aesthetics, the circulation uh in the front of the church, building and I'll have rich just walk the board through.

L

I think the key changes um as it goes around the parsonage and, of course, the removal, and uh you know how that really all to me, the parking management plan is a really important aspect, because a lot of questions were coming about the event space and how that operated and how we can really keep things functioning and not impacting uh you know, adjacent properties and the area, and hopefully, that'll also address later on on the process when we get to public hearings but I'll, let rich do the technical talk on that yep.

A

B

Okay good evening, um so as as taylor mentioned, there was some significant changes to the site plan. Well, we know we eliminated that driveway based on the discussions last month, and we went back and looked at uh trying to work in a driveway at the north end of the of the property there.

B

So what we and we looked at multiple different scenarios and how this would function, but what we came up with was basically maintaining the existing main driveway in the middle as two-way and having the northerly driveway. That's now shown be a one-way exit. Only we see that exit-only driveway as being generally in most situations being a lightly used driveway for delivery vehicles.

B

If you look at the circulation plans and- and uh things like that, uh general circulation, though we don't see that being heavily used um in the in the event condition when we have pickups drop-offs things going on that would be now now. We would make this kind of managed one-way circulation with with traffic coming in through that main driveway and going out through that exit only direct way at the north, um and I can I actually have a plan, but we'll get into that in a minute.

B

um There was a couple reasons why we we looked at doing it. The way we in the fashion that we did having that northerly drive, be exit only.

B

One of the main considerations was the fact that we felt that, where, where cars are exiting at that northerly drivable location, that's right where the uh the existing crosswalk is across walcott avenue right there, just north of that driveway, that's the with the flashing uh signs there. So you know one of our concerns was if that became your entry driveway, that people would be it's kind of hidden at a little a little bit as you're cut. You can't see it as well.

B

If you're coming down that road, not that you can't see a sight distance, but you can't you don't pick up the driveway necessarily and, and I we felt that for pedestrians crossing, also that if you're coming out that driveway, you pick up the pedestrian, you have a better, better shot just exiting there. So that was why we chose to go in that direction. Part of the reason why we chose to go in that direction.

B

We realized that now, with pickups and drop-offs they're going to be dropping off on the hotel side when people may be coming in onto the want to go in across to the to the church. For during the events, but we think that that can be managed uh as I'll get into a bit a little bit later, so that was the the general change on the circulation we did. As taylor mentioned, we lost two parking spaces. We added three others as perilous bases along the the um the north side of the the hotel extension building there.

B

So now we have a total of 32 parking spaces. uh I think there was a question in one of the comments about whether that was meant for employees or I don't think, there's any specific designation to those right at the moment, but we'll we can discuss that so that that's the overall site plan. um I was going to go into some traffic other traffic things. If you want to talk about the site plan first, we can do that.

A

Well, obviously, parking is going to be a big topic of conversation tonight in the future, as well. um Just as far as traffic do you have any specific highlights? You want to share.

B

Yeah just a couple of quick things, so um we did do a completely new, updated revised traffic study. That kind of incorporated all the prior comments from your consultants and and from the board that traffic study was actually submitted to the department of transportation on february 23rd, so that we're waiting on their input on the traffic study that we also um prepared.

A

When do you expect to hear back.

B

Their typical turnaround time is about a month, that's typical for them, um so I do. They did acknowledge that they received it uh other than that I haven't heard anything from them just yet, so my hope would be before the next meeting that we have something from them, um so we did incorporate those into the traffic study. The traffic study also provided a conceptual layout that was asked for for the tompkins lot.

B

As far as how many parking spaces could actually fit on that lot, that layout identified 66 parking spaces we had previously based on the main street access committee identified 70, so it's actually a little bit less.

B

So that was another thing that we provided and then the traffic and parking management plan, I think, was the other thing that kind of came out of the discussions from last month that at this point we submitted as a draft. um We anticipate adding some more information to that, but wanted to get that. You know in in front of the board in front of the consultants for for some input um and part of that, and actually maybe you can pull up the circulation plan, real, quick.

B

um I'm not sure that actually shows all the details, but in in the in the the document itself, there's some identified locations for uh some temporary signage. uh Where attendance would would be positioned on the property to manage the flow of the traffic.

B

uh We would we kind of anticipated, maybe coning off the parking spaces so that they couldn't be used other than hotel guests, um and that could be managed by the attendants. That would would manage the event um and and then that that would also support the the one-way circulation during the event coming in through that main driveway and out through the northerly exit um that that traffic management parking plan also um identified ways to disseminate some further ways to disseminate the parking information when during the ticketing process, if there is tickets or, however,.

D

B

May occur, for uh maybe a wedding type event or a conference that that people that we could work with the event planners to disseminate the parking information um and some other ideas like that um and, like I said, yeah that so that that also was submitted to the department of transportation as well for their input and, like I said, the overall intent of that plan is that it it it's it's a draft now we're going to add more to it, and it becomes kind of a living breathing document through the life of the project that can be adjusted to to fit the needs of of ultimately the project and because things could change.

B

When you have your first event, you know. Maybe we find some better way to do something, or you know the owner finds a better way to do something. So.

A

Be nice to find the better way now agreed.

B

No and we're gonna and and the intent of that plan is, to put you know the best effort into it, and I'm just saying that you know you may find something that needs to change in three years from now. So it's just something to be referred back to and and it gives you the basis of how to manage the circulation and parking for the events. So.

A

um So if you could just for my benefit, help me out with the numbers, because these reports there's a lot of words, I want to just kind of narrow it down in terms of so you're one one of the driving factors behind the parking requirement is the use right.

A

So the requirement based on your use is what number so.

B

D

B

Got from the building inspector were a total of 136 required 130.

G

That's required that doesn't.

B

Account for the fact that we're maintaining that the cafe use and the event space are non-simultaneous right. So we've talked about that before.

A

So that could be up for debate but well.

B

I think that's part of our argument of why.

A

Was that was that a part of your conversation with dave? It.

L

Was just in terms of okay dave doesn't have the ability to make that interpretation dave has to live in the finite world. Of sorry, dave has to live in the finite world of num, the pure numbers, or we would suggest that we only require a variance of 18 parking space or some much reduced number, because, as we noted, we have the uh the 1964 exception that would allow us to be grandfathered up to 86 spaces.

L

So I think it's again, you can make him do the taylormath, it's always dangerous when we get into taylormath, but we were trying to make the justification of what we could have on site, based on the 1964 exception to what is required from the overall number, totally ignoring all the the the submissions that we've made, that that speak to the you know, simultaneous use or non-simultaneous use. um So all those factors don't get considered when it's into uh the specific determination of the zoning board of appeals, they can consider those factors in this board.

L

Of course, in its consideration of the review of the special permit.

A

In terms of the again a lot of words you ever seen amadeus just.

L

Have to avoid the math.

A

When the king comes to him and says, there's just too many notes, so the requirement is 136 parking spaces right and it sounds to me like the the non-simultaneous use. Consideration is not a part of that number got it. Okay, so you're looking for you're able to provide then 32 is that right? Yes, so there you go, you've got 104 parking spaces that you're looking for a variance for that's correct and.

L

A

Argument around that variance is your proposed ability to find other avenues for parking and those are listed, one of them being tompkins firehose. Yes, so.

D

Part of the conversation.

A

Has to be around one what agreements then are in place for all of those considered, but also what happens when a parcel like that potentially gets developed, and you don't have those parking spots anymore.

B

Yeah I mean we understand that, and you know we do maintain that there's still spaces on beekman street that I don't think are necessarily going anywhere and in.

S

B

I realize it's further away, but the train station is a theoretical possibility for parking for public parking and I realize that's a distance so.

A

I'm just going to kind of narrow this down into what it what it ultimately ends up being that being you're asking to be able to have a specific use which comes with it, a specific volume and requirement for which you cannot provide that requirement. But.

L

If I mentioned, I'm not done.

A

Excuse me putting.

D

That the light bulb.

L

A

Putting that burden elsewhere on the city on mta, so that's just kind of like how I look at understood.

L

What's happening absolutely, and I think the same, the converse is also true. You know we we've we've presented to you what the main street master pl. You know the main street master plan and all the work that's going in to potentially building garages or other concepts that would create more public parking, but we can't take it. You know we can't take into consideration or take credit for the fact that those uses may in the future be constructed.

L

The same is here true: you've identified that there's this potential future that could otherwise impact the availability of those spaces. It doesn't mean that there won't be more than what you're describing as less so while these particular instant. So it's what sorry so you're suggesting that the work we're identifying locations where we could park cars today. That's why we're saying that there's available near the location available on street parking, that's not on our site. You've identified what happens if that site is developed.

L

The converse is well the city's also exploring how to get more parking available for the public again.

A

And we can't take credit, putting the burden for this requirement elsewhere and based on a potential future.

E

And some of us are praying fervently that there's never structured parking and beacon. Of course, just fyi.

L

But we are again: proximity wise. We are very close to the train station. We're not you know. We have built one of the other notes I had just as far as the updates I didn't get fully into. You know what we've changed the plan. We have 25 bike racks that we've added to the site. You know we've added concrete paths. um You know that go through to the beekman sidewalk, so we have a lot of encouragement mechanisms. This traffic and circulation plan is done because it's also going to be advertising to the event users.

L

um You know or those using the hotel that these are are what, where you can park, that isn't a residential street that that might otherwise, you know, present a concern that the board has identified. So all of these things are going to be implemented to help, encourage and bring those parkers to the right location.

A

It may be evident, but what I'm? What I'm pressing upon is this law of unintended consequences and best laid plans right? So ultimately, then also, my point being that there's a there's got to be a lot of real consideration and thought- and I know you have done on your end, but there's a theoretical nature to what you've proposed that we really have to look at closely, because we don't want to be in a position of having imposed this potential burden on the city and its residents.

A

So I'm just putting that there um as kind of the start point for how we go about looking at this. um So with that, is there anything else? On your end that you'd like to share with us, we will obviously hear a report out from the arb on their work with the applicant on the architecture.

A

We also have the benefit of creighton manning here with us tonight, uh stark to share uh their observations on your traffic analysis as well. So a couple of things we want to get to right. um So I think with that, we'll go to the city professionals and we might as well start with um any feedback and observations you'd like to make on the traffic analysis thanks.

T

I don't really have any jokes, so I'm sorry, we.

A

Leave that all to taylor.

T

uh Starkip with craig manning city's traffic consultant we'll start with the site plan.

T

I think one comment: that's going to be echoed by john that we noticed is just the and while we made the comment, we do notice that the driveways they propose are overly large, um we're wondering if they can be reevaluated and obviously with consideration with the dot which they're going to be coordinating with them. Now that the application is in um one recommendation,.

A

That we do have sorry start you make the driveways or the driveways and the aprons or.

T

Sorry, I guess the aprons, the tapers that they've provided, which we recommended uh to allow for easier access for the larger vehicles, they're, anticipating such as a garbage truck or a shuttle, bus um or delivery vehicles, given the egress only nature of the north driveway there's the potential that you could eliminate the right side of the taper since really that that side of the taper is intended for right turn ingress vehicles which won't be occurring at that driveway.

T

On to the, we also noted that the sight distance for both driveways they provided an evaluation of that there is adequate sight distance at both driveways. We, we had no further comments. There.

A

I'm just curious about your analysis of trip generation volumes.

T

Yes, so what we're um still a little um clear on is we understand that there's anticipated to be 350 persons on site during an event, um the applicant's made clear, or at least has stated that that 350 persons includes attendees staff and vendors, um and we know that it's kind of early on in the timeline for the project to have an operations plan set in stone, but we're recommending that perhaps a sensitivity analysis be done that considers a breakdown of staff and vendors and that the trip generation and the parking demand be reevaluated.

T

Considering a vehicle occupancy of one, which means like a staff. Staffer is going to arrive as one person in their car, whereas an attendee is going to arrive. You know as a couple or as a family, and the same goes for the parking requirement that that one staffer is going to need one parking space and not four staffers are going to need one parking space.

T

So that was as far as a look at the traffic portion, that was probably our major comment.

T

Another part to add on to that is just considering the hotel being not a hundred percent occupied by event, goers or one option is that the hotel is during events is only advertised to event goers, so that there's no additional traffic that can be credit or no traffic they'd be credited to the event again. This is all part of the sensitivity analysis that we're recommending.

A

Yeah, I think, that's a that's a strong recommendation and one we ought to um you know, discuss um around. um I guess reinforcing that recommendation, um I'm curious so and just thinking about an event right.

A

You have 350 people, only a few of whom can park at this location event, let's out some of them disperse on foot, some of them disperse on bike.

A

Others who come in groups have individuals running off to wherever they park the car to get it and that, then, that generates a volume of people after an event going to get their car and then making their way to pick up their their party right. So I mean I just sort of think about some of these scenarios, where you're, again unintended consequences things not necessarily considered when you think about parking dryly and you think about events and in a real world issues that arise that ah we didn't think about that right.

A

But I would, I would imagine a sensitivity. Analysis might consider things. Just like the example I gave.

T

I think that that does make sense. I do know that their previous study and they could continue to do so in the sensitivity analysis, is they incorporate a certain amount of trips? I can't remember the exact percentage that are you know: ride, share options arriving at the site.

T

um We could request or recommend that their sensitivity, analysis, um analyzes, the trips being driven to the parking lots that they're recommending like the tompkins lot, the municipal lot or down on beekman street and analyze impacts that way, and that is a good point- that those vehicles will be possibly arriving back to the site to pick somebody up. um That is reasonable, very.

A

You have potentially a significant number of those concert: goers waiting for rides either uber or rideshare. Forgive me or again, you know someone in their party going to get the car and pick them up. So I you know wouldn't like to see this happen, but I can imagine a situation where the concert's done and then you have you know, depending on how quickly it takes for people to get into the car.

A

You have a backup. You have people, you know, starting to kind of, have to wait on walcott to turn in.

T

I do think that that will be addressed in the the traffic and parking management plan that they're currently working on, and we did have comments on that to better facilitate that operation.

T

One was including, and I think they currently only show two attendants for the circulatory roadway- we're recommending that they have an additional one out on the street to help provide gaps for vehicles to exit or to even you know, screen cars as they come in and say. Are you parking there's no parking? This is an event you have to.

T

You, can either drop off or you have to go to tompkins lot or you have to go to the municipal lot and we're going to continue to review that draft study that they're providing and provide comments on that like we have.

T

But those are I do agree. Those are good points.

A

Great anything else, just in your review of applicants.

T

uh No, I think that, like I said the main, the main comment was about the sensitivity analysis and then following the comments and the continued commenting that we'll have on the the draft traffic and parking management plan that they are working on right.

A

Any any other questions for start from the board.

G

Are your analysis going to include assume that you're going to be using the topkins lot or other lots.

T

Their analysis should evaluate utilizing the tompkins lot and the municipal lot and the beekman street parking that they've identified in their previous studies. So.

E

As part of the sensitivity analysis, which I think is a really good idea- um well, I'm sorry if you already said this and I didn't pick up on it- I can envision that some events like a conference type event, it will be likely that everybody staying at the hotel will be an attender, and so those spaces will be.

E

You know, count towards the the participants at the event. I think that for concert events, I think there's good they're, probably based on the popularity of beacon, that's likely that there'll be a demand for the hotel all the time, even when there's not a conference type event, and so then you'll have instances where guests at the hotel are perhaps not going to the concert event so so that'll be included in the sensitivity analysis, that's kind of like you know what?

E

What what does the parking demand look like when everybody in the hotel is going to the event? What does the parking demand look like when no one in the hotel is going to the event.

T

What we're recommending in our comments is that the sensitivity analysis look at only 50 occupancy of the hotel. What they've previously credited was 100 occupancies occupancy of the hotel for a large event, um so again to kind of scale that back and provide a more worst case scenario to see if there is like a factor of safety with what they're proposing.

A

So your recommendation is 50 um 50 uh non-simultaneous use because again it is it with.

T

The hotel, the way I understand it, is that the hotel would be a simultaneous use with 50 occupancy so based on two persons per room, which is what they've stated that would be 30, attendees or sorry. Yeah yeah.

E

Right: two: no yeah, thirty half of the room; yes, thirty rooms, half the rooms times two fifteen rooms times two people yeah.

A

I can't understand what taylor's saying half the time. Don't expect me to do. Math.

E

No, it's like this is to create a bounding right. I mean we have. We have the the analysis that they've given us and we wanna create some bounds on some other likely scenarios by so just yeah. That's the purpose of doing this.

T

Again, just to explore what your tolerances are um with these other options, or with these yeah.

E

Yeah and this and the staff one is also very important. I agree correct.

D

Yeah because they get, I think.

E

Staff get they're kind of off in space. You know it's like. Oh, oh, wait. The people who have to run this oh yeah, because they're gonna and most likely the staff are to be the ones who are going to be finding the street spots. They don't get to park in the hotel lot. They have to find their. The employees have to find some place to park right and and if they're there every day running the cafe and working at the hotel, they're probably going to be the folks who look for the residential spots, yeah.

A

I know I think in the street spots right I mean whether, regardless of whether they um they're.

E

Not going to want to pay for beacon.

A

Park either at beekman or in this lot, there's a there's, an element of need for parking by a count, a number in excess of the 350 uh attending the event. Well,.

T

That's, I think, that's what we're asking for to clarify is this 350 number give.

E

Us a breakdown: how.

T

E

Of the 350 yeah, if that, if the 350 is incompetent to encompass everyone, there should be a very simple little table that says: okay. 20 of these are security servers at the cafe. During the event you know the desk clerks at the hotel and x 100 are the participants, and 10 of them are the parking attendants who also have to park somewhere.

E

You know the people who are running the event parking whatever right, I'm just kind of pulling stuff out of the air, but.

T

Getting the little.

E

Table of the breakdown of that with.

T

That recommendation we would want to work with their traffic consultant and with the applicant to you, know, come up with a reasonable number.

A

T

Their staff and vendors great- I.

K

Had a quick question yep, if I remember correctly the um analysis of how many parking spaces are available in the public, lots was done in the wintertime.

T

Yes, it was done and they their accounts were done in late september, early november,.

K

Okay in the sensitivity report, would it be taken into account the increased amount of traffic in town and an increased demand on the parking lot say on a may or june weekend.

T

We could consider some kind of metric to calibrate the parking demand, but at I would want to look at that before I make any decisions on how we would do that. First.

A

So so yeah I mean I understand.

K

It's seasonal, there's, definitely right. Yeah.

A

And and now obviously the impact, hopefully post code um or, as I should say, we um begin to emerge um so um yeah. No, I appreciate your your review and also your work to work with the applicant to model the sensitivity analysis. I think that's important and really helpful. Thank you.

J

I have one comment and this isn't exactly in your.

J

Purview- I don't think, but um maybe something is there, some way that the.

J

uh Owner whatever could incentivize parking like on beekman monetarily.

T

Yeah, I don't know if I could really comment on that. um Yeah.

J

I wouldn't expect that you could, but maybe build it into the sensitivity model or something.

E

There are things that can happen like that. Like I mean I can think of an example jill and that's been a long time since I've gone, but if the clearwater festival, if you bought your tickets through metro north, you got a deal on a train ticket and you know there was a discounted.

E

You know that one dana croton yeah, so I mean depending on what it's up to the applicant and how they create events. But I mean there are opportunities where they could create event: packages with metro, north or whatever, and.

T

Get people together, we recommend that you continue to review their parking and traffic management plan, and that includes a dissemination of information and we're more than willing to keep reviewing that and providing comment. um Yeah.

A

Is that what you meant about incentivization? That kind of.

J

Yeah something monetarily or some sort of package deal or something.

E

If you had like a two-day concert event with multiple bands, you and that you could.

I

D

With metro north.

E

Get people that you know get up, they.

J

E

Discount on their event ticket, if they.

J

Buy a train ticket but for.

A

A single night event just curious how that would be germane to the conversation about required parking, as opposed to, because.

J

It would be, it would be a way to make sure somehow that that more parking on beekman was being.

E

Used or more people use public transportation in the first place.

J

Ideally, that'd be great, but.

A

Yeah, no, I understand okay.

T

I'm going to defer it to.

A

Jeffy get it yeah. Okay, it goes it goes down. It goes down a different road right, no pun intended.

A

Right because it goes back to that that these alternative parking offerings to the city of there's so many spaces over here, there's so many spaces over there. Obviously, if there are arrangements with other private land owners, those have to be memorialized so and the management of such it's. You.

B

A

You know there's an event that agreement needs to outline somehow that no one else gets to park there. So there's there's a lot of work to do there to make us feel to make us have a clear understanding of what the plan is and to be really clear about the fact that for the volumes and based on our understanding of traffic generation and parking need, uh it will be accommodated without being a burden to the city, the residents so on and so forth. So again,.

T

That is one other comment that we had that uh we we do recommend that the board request or have the applicant investigate some kind of contingency plan for parking um beyond the tompkins lot. uh The municipal lot yeah.

A

I would, if that's possible, I would hope that is. There is consideration for just that for the eventuality of lots being developed, lots of being selected and then approved being developed. What is what do you do so, when those parking spots go away.

E

A

E

Went to one of those um van gogh, you know events in in pittsburgh and they had a parking that was like two or three blocks away with it, so they they had a little jitney to take people for those who weren't able to or comfortable walking the distance.

E

They were running a shuttle continuously so, and maybe that is part of a contingency plan, says hey. If we need to use a train state if we need to rely heavily on say parking at the train station, which is more distant on foot and then you know, is it: is it feasible to get a shuttle that can just continuously circulate during the yeah.

A

All part of the all part of the need for a clear, documented, understood, plan and onus is on applicant for that. So thank you. I guess with that any.

O

Other questions.

A

For the city's traffic engineer with that, we'll go to our um planner mr clark for your.

C

Observations, yes, um I I have a bunch of lingering traffic and parking mainly concerns uh that only have put partially addressed, but um the other one I'll I'll mention again is that both the firehouse parking lot, which my actual foot distance, is 700 feet away, not 500 feet, because it's not you, you don't walk as the crow flies you walk across across walking up the sidewalk and into the lot and you park halfway up or whatever um that there have been discussions about both that lot and the city hall lot being subject to development scenarios.

C

uh The main street access committee has talked about that. um That is on a major arterial, the tompkins lock the.

D

C

Is going to be expanded, we don't know exactly how that's all going to shake out in terms of their parking needs, even though you know there's an estimate. They may have events, um so there's no guarantees. I don't think that either of those parking lots will necessarily be available five years down the line. Yep- and that's that's, I think, a concern. You know when you, the 1964 exception and exception waivers that have been happened on main street there's a lot of parking on main street supplemental parking.

C

There's a lot of side streets, there's on-street parking over a thousand fourteen hundred on street spaces, plus five or six lots you can pick from rather than this is a very, very constrained area. Without a lot of street parking when the trains come back, presumably beekman street will be full of commuters again until.

O

C

30 at night yep, um so those are all concerns that I you know that I just I have a hard time with. um I want to congratulate.

B

C

For rethinking the loop road in front of the church, I appreciate that I don't think that was a usable option.

C

I had envisioned and you can talk me out of it perhaps of having a one-way loop road as opposed to two one in and two outs. It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me um to me it's just confusing um and you may have two cars coming out at the same time: sort of crossing paths, one turning left one's turning right.

C

um I saw four advantages of having a one-way loop system coming in on the north side and coming out on the south side.

C

uh One is, you would be dropping off if the one of the main purposes is to come into event drop your kids off at the concert and drive away, it would be on the church side of the the drop-off would be primarily on the church side, the passenger side. So.

A

Sorry, john just so I can follow along. Are you saying ingress on the north? Yes, yep.

C

Come in on the north side and loop out on the south side, thank you. um So the drop off the primary passenger drop off would be on the church side rather than on the hotel side. So you don't have those people back crossing across the street through.

D

C

um Secondly, you have more backup distance, so if six kids are climbing out of a car and they forgot to can't find their ticket, you know whatever happens that the drop-off takes longer than three seconds it could back up into route 9d. You only have um about six cars back and you start backing up into route 9d onto walcott, whereas if you're coming into the north and looping around, you have a lot more room for backup problems. If things get jammed.

A

For some reason, backing up congestion that kind of backup, yeah.

C

The car is back into the road, essentially because you don't have that much difference between the front of the church and the and the street.

C

Third, um this uh driveway exit there entrance exit is very wide and I'm trying to be as sensitive as possible about the church, front yard and having a one-way exit drive could be narrower than a two-way entrance and exit, and that way you would have more green space and less conflict in front of the church from people. Turning in um and.

B

C

Finally, um you know the the concern about the crosswalk. The crosswalk is right at that area. Next, to where this northern entrance would be.

B

C

To put it on the plans for next time, so you can really see it to me. That creates an intersection, it's very typical, to have a crosswalk at a turning place. That gives you an opportunity to slow down before you turn it and watch out for pedestrians, because there's a crosswalk, whereas the other one which is an uncrossed walked area, would be more apt to have people turning in without seeing pedestrians or without looking for pedestrians, and that's where the main pedestrian entrance would be to the church.

C

So for all those reasons, I think that should be at least looked at as an opportunity.

C

I'll leave it at that the driveways are the tapers are way too wide. They they shouldn't be angular. They should be. If you look at the truck turning diagrams, you don't need that much space to make that corner. You have a three-way street, essentially a three-lane street, because you have a two-way left turn lane, so you have a lot of room coming in without backing up traffic. The other way. If you have to wait uh and coming out so you have more room to swing. You know it's not coming straight in on it.

C

On the the curbside lane, you have room to pull out and take up that center lane a little bit without hitting opposing traffic. So I think those tapers should be a lot shorter.

C

And then I just wanted to comment again. I keep putting in my lever and nobody ever addresses it. um The the proposed lighting that they have the fixtures are very modernistic and I just don't think they're appropriate for this site. I mean this is a really historic church and I think the the lighting fixtures should have some historic compatibility built into them. I don't think lawn lights are the sort of thing you put in front of a historic building.

D

C

I think pole lights would make more sense uh than lawn lights, which are sort of a modern invention.

D

C

There's no historic lawn lights out there that I can think of so I think you should take a look at the lighting a little bit more.

A

Great great recommendations.

L

Thank you, john might be able to provide just with some responses just to those, so we don't side bar on just on the respectfully, mr russo. Just on the john comments.

A

Yeah, no, please um yeah. I think, just in regard to um mr clark's um comments and recommendations, you have the full support of the board behind those. So take that into consideration. We.

L

Do- and I think it bears reminding that the events we are talking about are the maximum events, so we are planning and designing this to maximum events. This is not an everyday function. This is by no means a 350 person a day. Five. You know seven days a week operation. This is, you know, we're talking about the the biggest event you know capacity at the site on very limited occasions. You know throughout the year.

L

So again, of course, we're designing this site to accommodate that, but I want to just sort of it bears reflecting that these comments are are are consistent with what the biggest and the worst case are, but.

E

If you could get a couple of big names per month, wouldn't you I mean if your popularity grew, I'm just saying.

A

That's what I was just about to say this whole idea of latent potential. I understand you're saying that, but we have to design to worst case with.

L

Gas prices, the way they are, but you become more walkers right. You know, but.

A

Unless you somehow restrict.

E

A

To only once a month, or only once, a quarter which.

E

Would you want to do memorialize that.

D

We have no way to know that you're not going to.

A

Hold a 350 person event 365 nights of the year. You.

B

Understand where.

L

I'm coming from, I understand what you just.

A

Said we do, but I can't we can't hang our hats on.

L

Right and that's part of the special perma review, we're we're identifying the limitations, almost self-imposed limitations on when those events, generally speaking, would be taking place. Glad.

A

L

And that's part of the discussion part of the consideration that if that were to be the case- and it were different from what the sport approves- we'd see you again right here and have to discuss those items with the board at that time.

A

So so to that end, just in regard to john's input relative to the circulation, ingress egress and the aprons themselves, let's discuss that.

B

I mean that's why I wanted to because.

A

Because, honestly, I think those things would have more everyday impact to the better. So.

B

There's there's a couple things number one.

A

B

I don't disagree that that maybe they are a little wide, I mean what what we did was take. What is the standard from department, transportation and applied that to this location for the type 4 driveway? I believe it is again it's the department of transportation's roadway, so ultimately they're going to dictate what happens with these driveways right. So that's why we're waiting for their input um did.

A

You share those aprons this drawing with them.

B

They they got exactly what was submitted to you. Okay, so do I think, there's ways to modify it absolutely. I absolutely do and we'll take a look at that.

B

As far as the circulation goes, I think the dot is also going to have some input on this right, so ultimately, whether they allow two-way driveway in a one-way driveway, or they want one way one way or whatever they're going to have some input on that right. So I think we're going to have to wait a little bit to get their input and then assess what that means.

B

So I I, I completely understand all the comments about the circulation, but I would like to see what the department of transportation's input is before we make any significant changes to that.

A

So you're saying, let's take all the input in aggregate exactly.

B

Fair so- and I understand the confidence there so you know.

C

Maybe the planning board should weigh in with the d.o.t before they make any decisions.

A

Wait say that again weigh in with the dot.

C

Yeah, maybe the planning board could weigh in submit.

E

C

Comments before they make and get into a hardened position that oh, we want the standard driveway, because.

A

You know they've almost already locked themselves in because the d.o.t is seeing their very own curb. So if we have that opportunity to describe otherwise what we consider to be more advantageous, we should do that. Thank.

G

You I have a just: does the dot have flexibility with their standards as far as the design? Oh.

B

Absolutely absolutely and that's why I don't think that they're we're locked into anything here. Necessarily as far as the dot goes, I mean we could even look at something where we do a radius situation that has a different treatment for the radius for a mountable area for the trucks but makes it look like it's narrower driveway for passenger cars. We've done that in many locations before so, there's different ways to treat it, but this is. This was just really applying their standard to this location. But I we're going to take the comments.

B

I think what we get from dot ultimately is going to be initially some guidance, and then there there's not going to be a final answer on on anything at this point. So.

A

To that end, if there is flexibility, they would hear from us somewhat through a revised application to them right, I'm assuming, then you would go back to them after you hear their comments.

B

Yeah we're when we get we're going to get their comments. Ultimately, I've said this before we're going to need permits from them for right.

G

B

So, ultimately, we're going to get their comments, we're going to respond to their comments. Just like we do to your consultant's comments in the same fashion. That'll all get considered into the final permits when that when we when and if we get to that point- and you know that'll all kind of go together, so there will be a revised application to them based on what their comments are understood.

A

Great thank you, mr rusev.

F

So they are showing a pedestrian path out to beekman. I believe one of the plans noted that to be stone dust as far as the surface mike was that or is.

N

F

N

Looking, if you have events during.

F

The winter somebody's.

L

Gotta haven't made a final decision on that. Yet sorry, I'm just repeating for mike.

A

Yep get in the mic.

F

Basically, that pedestrian path is to have to be maintained all times of year, so you may want to consider what you're actually going to surface that pedestrian path with you're still looking at the lighting, so we're waiting for lighting plan. With regards to that, we still need to do soil, testing, joint soil testing on site for their storm water facilities, to ensure they're going to work on site and then the other comments. We have a lot of cleanup on the plans that.

A

Yep understood um the second mention of lighting, I'm assuming that's.

D

Not something that was taken up in.

A

Ar erb lighting so.

C

Unless it's on the building.

A

I understood yeah yeah, so just as far as the sight lighting. um Let's talk about that for a minute in terms of both of those observations and the.

N

A

Position on looking further at those thoughts.

L

The applicant is with us, so I think we're we're hearing them and we're going to have to try and incorporate that obviously we're in historic district. We are doing everything to preserve the integrity of the church, including removing the driveway. So I mean these are things I think are, can be accommodated and good.

A

To try and work that into that's what I wanted to hear. Thank you. Okay, uh anything around the board. Observations of questions.

L

Lights offset parking spaces by like 20 or 30 right.

K

Yes, uh I'd be curious to know if the applicant is making any effort to secure parking on privately owned parcels or leasing. You know perhaps from dia rose hill manor, something other than public street lot.

R

Gavin hecker, and the answer is yes: we've asked dia and rose hill and those those ideas are have been brought up to private owners of parking lots in the area and we're still doing some more searching in that realm.

R

It definitely sounds like it's.

L

Going to be, you know, I get to say this on my side, this time, public private partnership at some point in some capacity. So I think it's it's an all hands approach, and that includes managing the site and where we can get that parking offside.

L

And, of course the zoning board is going to have a big impact or.

C

L

C

A

Anything else um yeah.

O

P

Just to two real comments, um the uh I think I think it's a wonderful turn of events to to sort of modify the parking. As john was was mentioned before john clark um modifying the circulation. I agree wholeheartedly with all of john's recommendations.

P

I would um suggest that um you know the path to the the existing path to the church, the main entry. It seems to be cut off literally um by the new driveway, and I think that would be ashamed if that sort of historic entrance was cut off. As such, you really want that little path to have you know be flanked by by grass on both sides not cut off the way shown.

P

That's just a detail, but I think it's a good important thing that to keep in mind I I would also regarding the comments that john russo just made about the steps in the back again. It may not it's not our purview, maybe but again, I'd ask the applicant to consider the other stair that was built recently. I think the ruby ridge or the ridge development.

P

I went up there once and again that those steps a lot of these steps going down from beekman to wall cut, are not easy to you know um to uh to transverse and- and I- and I would just encourage you to keep in mind that, like the steps by brett's hardware were done much more sensitive to the people using them, because that too, on west main is a uh a steep steep climb, but they they they were most sensitive. They had, I think, a six and 12 rise.

P

Those steps, people walking down and up that back of the church, will not be happy to be walking up. Steep steps, understood.

L

And we appreciate that comment and there, as you mentioned, there are two adjoining properties that utilize access to beekman ours is a little bit constrained. Maybe not a little bit is constrained because of the existence of a cemetery um in that location, so we are being very mindful of all of that and ensuring it has. No.

L

You know that that's a big drive of of this design but of course, any way that it can accommodate again, whether it's you know creating landings or the like that that do it, you know, will be, I think, incorporate into the design.

A

I think your observation that they're difficult to traverse is because there's a lot of them right.

D

It's exhausting so it's you know it.

A

It poses, in my view, quite honestly, a deterrent to many, but the real intrepid, and you know sometimes you know there are people who get halfway through and realize I didn't know there were so many damn steps I got to go up, so I mean it should be a real consideration for an avenue for volumes of traffic. Quite honestly,.

R

I encourage you to take that walk sometime to I mean if you go down behind the church, the cemetery land there is pretty much flat so um there what we're, showing are steps down by beakman and steps up by the church, and literally that's you know, there's no need for steps in the middle. It's it's pretty much flat. It's not a steep, and I believe it's also the um what we're dealing with is is treading lightly through the cemetery as well. So we don't want to you know. We do realize that there are.

R

There are paths on either side. So in terms of building our our pedestrian walkway, you know it's, we are building it through a cemetery and we want to be careful not to disturb anything. I mean we've we've surveyed it. So we're not we're not going through tombstones, but we don't. You know we're not building a major highway here.

A

Oh, that's fair, I think my point is you still have quite an elevation to traverse and again it's a nice thing to have if you're fit and willing is my point because again any the the two new stairs I've run up them both and it's almost killed me they're hard to they're hard to navigate.

R

I have a video, it took me three minutes. It's on my phone.

A

So all I'm saying is: is that it as a as a viable walkable path, it's great that it's there, but one.

L

Could say it's deadly cemetery come on. I thought I had that.

A

Not only are you being recorded, but the press is here. I think this is going to be their scoop. um Is that all you had.

P

uh Yeah that that's that's all I have but again I I really I support john's recommendations and ask you to please reconsider the perhaps um you know um the changes to the to two paint lanes and and to one to to sort of um simplify the circulation, but also like, as john pointed out for all the reasons that he pointed out. I I really think that that would help uh the circulation.

P

J

Yeah, I strongly agree with that as well. uh It using the north entrance, the north driveway is an entrance and the south driveway is an exit. Only uh it just seems like it would make the whole thing a lot safer for everybody.

J

And then, if you'd pay, everybody who parks on beekman pay them five bucks to climb up the stairs they only have you only have to do it one way, because then they can just go down the stairs afterwards. It's like not a big deal.

J

And, um and the thing is a lot of a lot of the resistance that people have to walking from parking lots that I mean they just even if, if the tompkins parking lot is 700 feet instead of 500 feet, that's still like a block a little over a block, not even a block and a half so come on people you just gotta, somehow sell it to them.

J

A

E

uh I don't think I have any further questions. I I I am also pleased at using the you know having the idea of uh having one-way circulation from the north entrance around to the south. I think that that makes a lot of sense. I'm I'm just glad.

E

I'm I'm very pleased to see the changes that that you know the addition of the north driveway to avoid having a dead-end scenario where you could really get a serious traffic jam, as john clark pointed out um yeah, so I think it it's it's it's coming down to some issues that the parking has to be worked out. I'm I'm pleased that, with dave buckley's estimate of about 130 spaces, I think that's getting into the realm of the realistic for the larger size events.

A

Anything kevin.

G

uh Yeah, actually, um I had the opportunity to go down to the site and uh walk around walked around all the paths which I hadn't, and I just want to thank, I think, jill had a lot to do with um making sure that there were those pedestrian paths that exist on those two adjacent properties which I found actually kind of useful and nice.

G

But one of the issues is a a visitor would have no idea where those paths go to right, except for the one on ferry street. It's pretty clear if you're on the bottom. Okay, sorry, it's pretty clear on the uh from ferry street that that goes up to um 9d and walker or walcott, but the the path that goes by the river, the the views uh to the uh to the apartment buildings.

G

um It's it's. It's not 100 clear that that'll take you where that goes, because it's long and there's no line of sight to where you're going. But one of the things I did discover when I went up there is that you could actually there's a jog, it's not shown here, but you could connect that one! That's behind the apartments, uh if you extended it.

G

Just like maybe 30 feet to the back of that parking lot, which would increase the level of connectivity to beekman, also there's already a connection to the sidewalk at those locations and what you would have to do uh at the cemetery where your path is, there's a pretty significant stone ledge, which would have to be um uh blasted uh worked. It's a lot of effort and I it'd be really difficult to make that look. Nice, I'm a little bit. It's it's the whole path through the um uh through the cemetery.

G

As I was walking through it there's a lot more work there than it seems right, and I think that it's more useful as an experience than as a utilitarian path, because I don't think that's going to be used as a as a practical shortcut to parking it'll be used as something to do, whereas as like, if you, if you're right now, you have to uh bushwhack and it's not a publicly accessible area, but if a very lightly uh structured path that um didn't uh uh uh that minimally engaged um that didn't disturb the soil too much uh would be uh preferable and also a little bit nicer to to walk down.

G

Something was built above rather than like concrete. That was excavated in also every time you excavate in here you have the um there's a risk of running into something that, um where uh you have to be very careful in situations like this, that you're respectful of um of the of the place you are, and the people that are there, um especially since it's so historic.

G

So I before any of that happens and before we sign off on it, I feel like it does need to get.

G

um There needs to be a significant understanding that there won't be impacts on the um on the uh the historic remains that are there, and also on the uh um the uh the you know the graves uh one other thing is that there's a really one of the benefits of having the uh a one-way driveway loop is that you get to narrow that driveway and when I was walking down there, the most beautiful part of this, um the the vista, the view of the church.

G

That's the most attractive is between the um apartments or the uh the condos. I keep forgetting the names of these um developments. The river rangers, whatever.

L

River west end lofts and river ridge. Yes,.

G

River ridge, so between river ridge and the sycamore, there's actually a view where you get the clock, the tower right and the most beautiful segment of the of the church with the chancel coming out right and um it's very uh inviting right and one of the things I noticed on all the development that's been done. That entrance is now a sort of a service entrance. It's not really anything that somebody could walk up to and have a picture taken right.

G

It's not an instagram moment, and it's completely the view that you want and it's the place that you want to be if you're in a visitor, especially if you're the first time visitor as an experience, it's the most beautiful part, all these other parts that, where all it's all asphalt and parking which we have to provide right, are where also where, when you're that's what you're experiencing the building uh for the first time, the way it's set up now. So there's this kind of utility side, that's not very attractive.

G

You're gonna have to put in at a great fairly decent expense, uh a uh the what would be the most used entrance to the thing and you're limited to something like a six foot sidewalk, which is not a very enriching experience. My point being that when you narrow this and if you since we're providing other parking you're going to be providing other parking, you're, not accommodating part all the parking here, I would say that you could lose several parking spots.

G

You don't need to maximize here, because two or three spots are not going to kill you. If you um basically lance made a more uh ample and substantial entrance on that side and removed uh moved where the dumpster was right, which is also sort of like this little utility load-in area and it it. And it's the the like, I said the main view when you're walking down you're being introduced to uh an enclosure for a dumpster which also isn't very inviting.

G

So if you reconfigured that, with the thought that you've made that a more generous and inviting area, you could do that by eliminating parking spaces very easily.

G

But I just, I think that one of the things we don't want to lose sight of is that you, uh the the the communal value of the the importance this has to the city, is the way that it looks right.

G

It's a beautiful thing that we have in our community it'll also be hopefully a place that gets used in a way that people enjoy, and it is isn't provided in the city right now, but um making it beautiful is something that we all could work together, especially since you're assuming a lot of cooperation from the city right, and so I think- and I think it's obvious- that it will be difficult to make this work unless that happens.

G

So I think that the more effort that's put into the uh the the public presentation and and the preservation of this building.

G

The more compelling an argument you have for that uh cooperation and uh collaboration, that's about it! Thank you.

K

Okay, I would also like to encourage you to consider reducing the driveway, the south driveway, to one lane pulling. This just seems like an excessive amount of asphalt, so any way to minimize that I would encourage.

K

And I still think that the parking is a very tall hurdle that you have to get over for the at least for the use that you are looking for. You know the 350 people seems like a very tall order.

A

Thanks karen okay- and we also have.

A

Bend through the arb uh looks like to me two meetings already is that right.

C

A

So I'm seeing a report from a review meeting on the 19th that notes the subcommittee will meet again for this application on the 11th.

A

So I'm assuming we would have a cumulative report out at this point from the arb on where we stand in terms of architectural review. That.

J

Got changed to the 18th.

A

It did so, but it took place right.

L

And I believe this was if I made mr chairman, wasn't this referred back to the board for fuller consideration? I thought the.

D

B

Had completed its.

L

Its subcommittee review had been completed, yeah.

C

The subcommittee review felt that um they had come a long way and that it was ready to come back to the full.

D

B

This application.

C

364 main they wanted to have another look at because of the streetscape issue. Yeah no.

A

E

But you're looking for the minutes of the second.

A

Yeah, that's thank you. You could tell I was searching for, even though it was changed to the 18th there's reference to in the night in the january, 19th.

J

No I'm talking about it report. The upcoming lives got changed. Sorry, yeah, no, okay, so.

A

This application has been to arb twice and that, based on what john just mentioned, we understand that the board a.

R

A

To report out to the full board, based on those two reviews, I was thinking.

E

There might be, did we capture? Did we capture the notes of the second meeting in in the report? That's before john yeah.

C

And I said it, you should have a copy of it. I hope.

E

Maybe we've got a we've got a um anyway yeah.

A

E

Point was, I was.

A

We got a draft dated 121.

E

We have a draft dated january 21st in the package.

A

E

Maybe we don't have the right. The final cumulative tonight.

C

Documents- and I just sent the january instead of the february meeting.

E

Yeah, it looks like it. That's.

A

What at least that's what's up on that? It.

E

Says date of meeting january 19th there's no reference and then and then at the.

C

End of the february meeting.

E

At the end of it it says the subcommittee will meet again in february without getting into so so.

A

We can't report out right.

E

C

I was hoping to have it.

A

Here to be able to follow along so.

C

You might want to have them walk through the architecture. Do.

E

You have a hard copy for. Do you have a hard copy of that february document for john all.

L

A

Yeah I mean I don't need it. I was just wondering why it wasn't here, but thank you. Do you need this who's? Who does a report out on the arb? I do it.

E

John doesn't report that.

C

I have, I have.

D

A

Okay, so with that yeah, let's, let's talk through um where, where you've all ended up with the architectural review.

B

A

Benefit of the full board.

E

Who's going to start john or re.

A

It's like, are you.

M

Yeah, so we had a couple of um meetings with the arb subcommittee and we made some additional changes to the church. Building. um There's only a couple things that we're proposing for for the exterior of the church. One is that there would be a new deck in the in the back that would be accessed from the cafe and we originally had two doors there.

M

We looked at an arch design and then changed it to a simple single door, with side lights and a transom and the side lights are sort of similar, similar proportion to those existing tall, skinny windows on the building and just one door centered. On the back the side there we're using a wrought iron railing.

E

Can you zoom in on that rh while we're talking about it, so you helped help us help john look at it. So.

B

E

Original setup for the rear deck had two doorways and the concern was that they they looked like they were kind of crowding. The existing gothic arch windows.

D

E

We asked if they would consider going to a single doorway, and there was some discussion about whether the glass work above the door could be arched to kind of pick up the the windows and I and the can, the the um kind of the we ended up with having some side lights to create some kind of narrow.

E

You know narrow glass uh uniforms that would that would mimic the narrow windows on the back of the church, but but the first. The first step was to get down to just one penetration in the back wall and which was less busy and less less crowding. The existing windows yeah.

M

We just try to try to simplify it and relate it more to the building and and then work within. You know, there's some brick um patterning on that facade, so we're trying to work within that, as opposed to trying to break through that and put an arch above that or something you.

A

Know you were doing aria's job for him there just a second ago.

E

Does this represent.

A

The latest, since that input yeah.

M

Okay, yeah and then and then the other thing we were looking at this, um we were proposing uh originally a stone wall at the end of the deck that this.

E

So there's a there's, an acoustic yeah, so the purpose of this was to have an acoustic barrier for the the back deck cafe space with so to give some consideration to neighbors for sound right and so that.

M

Yeah and some visual screening yeah and then you know there would be planting on that. So what we did was we, instead of uh just a sort of a bigger stone wall that came off there. We we used some of the brick details from the building and.

A

M

Openings yeah yeah.

E

Projects from the back of the building, the idea was to go from the original proposal for stone material to brick and maybe evoke something like a buttress, perhaps be a little more compatible with the you know. The church.

M

There's there's that base layer that lines up and that's.

E

It stepped a little bit further ahead than the other part, and then the applicant did those those uh neat. You know kind of faux window details which would and have said you said you were gonna, have plantings or like an ivy or something on the yeah.

M

Well, that would be the most of the wall so yeah. It would end up kind of covering that, and that would be part of the acoustic solution as well.

E

And then the the railing detail, I don't think you touched on on the deck yet.

M

um Yeah then we were, I mean I don't think I can blow it up enough on here, but but there's a um we would have more of a decorative rod on iron railing yeah. We we started with a simple, um you know kind of a wood railing, but we uh detailed that so there's more detail that relates to the to the church. Yes,.

E

So the the initial proposal for a simple or wooden baluster um was replaced with a like a decorative wrought iron. That would be a little bit more evocative of the the overall church architecture. Okay,.

A

Just under your notes here uh for what looks like the parsonage building, it says the current signing should be partially removed, determine what the original signing looks like that's.

E

On the hotel structure, yeah yeah yeah, we had it so the the first, the first design for the parsonage, the hotel edition was going to be brick and it seemed really kind of jarring, and so it was switched over to a clabbard.

E

And there was a question saying: hey: can we at some point? Can we take a look under the aluminum siding on the existing structure just to see what's under there and and how that might be?

E

uh You know mirrored and so because I think because we went and we it looks, we went from a more simpler um collaborative we talked about how to um while mirroring the clapboards on the on the parsonage, how to differentiate the new structure from the existing structure, and one of the discussions was maybe do something different at the water table above the brick foundation or maybe have a belt line between the first and second floors.

E

In addition to the collaborate details on the hotel edition to do that kind of differentiation of new for mold, while still you know keeping the design consistent and it, it seemed to look a lot better with the cloudbirds continued on to the, and I think in the most recent rendering the corners are picked out and with a vertical molding like I'm, where the the bay comes out for the staircase or in the so, um and there is a there- is a water table molding.

E

It looks like above the the brick but um yeah so, but there was yeah. There was a uh request to the applicant that at some point they do an investigation of what the what was the original exterior finish on the on the parsonage and see how that would inform a final.

A

Have you been able to do that.

M

uh Not not yet there's there's some kind of aluminum something or siding on there, but we'll you know.

A

How, if how if that were cedar, shaped, how would that inform your decisions.

M

Well, I mean, I think you know if we would we'd want to take a look at that and see if that looked original. You know, because also you know, john, you were saying that there is at least one addition to the building yeah.

C

The history I got on the building was that it was originally a narrower building, a house, a three-bay house and when it was donated to the church- and it turned it into the parsonage- they uh enlarged it to a five-bay frontage with the dormers and the half floor on the top. So we don't know what's under the siding, it may be mismatched. It may be sure.

H

C

Knows what but, presumably the siding went in post-war world war ii, uh so it's probably got something.

A

C

Underneath but we don't know, it's got.

A

Asbestos and light in it.

C

But I've seen a lot of aluminum siding, come off and have really beautiful, siding that's intact, underneath yeah.

A

Kind of keeps it preserved.

C

Unless there's drainage issues yeah, then it all runs.

M

And then, and then you know so if we do find something like that, that that would at least help us with proportion of yeah.

A

The new sighting.

M

Or something but yeah, we'll we'll take a look at that.

A

So yeah and I'll ask because it sounds to me like based on that there is the possibility for some some potential.

D

M

A

And then it also mentions here you're looking at options to avoid a ramp to the front porch.

M

Yeah we're still looking at that, and and also looking at it in relation to you know the the driveway loop that was changed. It we'd have to get really close to the sidewalk and you know so bring bring people from the parking area very close to the wall, cut sidewalk to even possibly make it work and then regrade things. So what what we're looking at um as an option to that is, have having some kind of a planter that relates to the foundation that would, at least you know, screen the required ramping.

A

Understood and then the other item that really stands out from my reading um again. This may be predicated on what you find, but that you would show proposed materials and color samples for future submissions.

M

Yeah yeah we'll we'll get.

A

M

That you know, I think, after um a couple meetings with the subcommittee and and then you know, we want to come back to you and make sure that we're sort of generally on the right track, and then we can drill down to those details.

A

Yeah, I think, generally speaking, this is quite attractive, um so you know it'd be interesting to see what other yeah yeah.

M

And evolution takes place.

A

Based on your findings, but so does that mean that we would review this last and I would assume final submission together as a board here, as opposed to going to arb yeah.

E

You could keep it with the board right.

M

Yeah and that now now I think.

A

M

On the full board, yeah yep.

A

Else you wanted to add john.

C

uh The only thing this new information- that's on this drawing that I haven't seen, is the basement level. You.

D

B

M

C

It gets you know, there's like a 10 or 12 foot difference, I think, between the front of the building and the rear of the building and elevation, and so that lower level we were asking. Is that going to be used for service laundry?

C

What and it had a very high foundation. So the new information is that he has windows along that lower end in the back, which I think improves it, because it doesn't look like this thing's up on stilts yeah.

A

And you give the people and the scholarly some lighting here.

A

Okay, all right so.

E

Yes, so question: one question for the: maybe for the full board on that topic is that in that rendering there is not perhaps a significant detail that distinguishes the the um addition. The new addition from the existing building, except that the roof pitch, is a little bit different on the hotel edition, and we had. We were kind of tossing around ideas a little bit on the air b about you know.

E

Would we do something else different with the exterior molding on the subtle, not anything big but like on the on the hotel edition, like I said, like a a belt line, maybe between the first and second floors, like you, sometimes see on victorians as an exterior decoration- and this was all based on that sort of uh you know, do no harm in terms of you know, creating an addition to an original building, doing something to differentiate a little bit so that somebody said okay, I see this is not part of the the original structure. Yeah.

A

I see where it going with that, but I would submit also that the original structure is being altered. Altered sounds like the wrong word, but it's being affected enough to be quite different in in an improved way from what's standing there now yeah, I mean.

E

So yeah it's just it's a matter.

G

E

G

This was just a not a disagreement, but we had we had uh I had. um uh I was probably bringing up the view that you may want to differentiate the edition from the original building. In a way, that's uh significant, so you can tell, even though you know it's like that, uh um where in restoration work um uh you uh make separations, you either change the color slightly or other things. That's one! uh That's one way of looking at it.

G

The other one is that, and this still is going to have a problem that I think you're going to have to deal with. Is that grooves?

G

If you try to join mansard or gable roofs and in in the way that you have them it's, it can tend to look really awkward and I think it might be beneficial both practically and visually, to pull them apart and create like a um a space or a shadow line or a uh a separation between the original building and the uh edition, because I think it because there's going to inevitably be differences in construction and detail and uh other things, and um it's going to make more sense if those have, if there's a line drawn between the respectful edition and the original, which you have more flexibility with.

G

So that's that's my main. uh Whenever you do so, especially when you're doing an addition, that's larger than the original. uh I think it's it's going to be posted.

M

We can look at that. We, we did something like that. You know we created like a little reveal on the facade, but didn't do that with the roof. So right I mean there were. There was yeah.

G

It's you, you did a very good.

M

Job here yeah, I'm not.

G

M

No, I mean I mean we can look at those kind of details. Yeah.

A

Yeah give it some.

E

Thought my thought is differentiate. Subtly yeah.

A

Yeah, the only other observation I would make has to do with the rake and the proportions of the gables at the.

A

Especially the um the longer south facing facade yeah, those guys and especially that one. You almost had your cursor on.

D

E

Metal one they're.

D

A

I know it's a stare, it's just all I'm saying is that that king of curtains, it just looks it, looks awkward. It shouldn't.

M

Tell you how to do it, but just maybe take a look at that I mean just to to clarify. I mean just something different than.

E

The gable penetration.

A

Just because that gable is the pitch original yeah, the pitch, it just looks diminutive to the form look at them.

A

D

My visceral response.

A

Isn't that what you want? Yeah? That's all I don't know, I don't know the labor to draw it out. That's just an observation.

N

A

But otherwise, yes, it's.

E

If you put, if you put some fish scales on that, maybe you're, maybe well honestly, maybe you're reacting to the lack of a window on that gable, end, which the other ones all have, and maybe it's the kind of thing where a decorative shingle would I.

A

Would give, I would leave it to the um professional, forgive.

D

A

The architect, the applicant to to take a look, give it some thoughts. Come back to us. If you're inspired, sorry j.c, you had something yeah.

P

I would just reiterate: I agree that I think this is a great improvement and it has a nice character and attractiveness. I I just think for historical purposes, since there is a distinction between the old and the new, it would be. um I think, a nice opportunity to distinguish it. Even if it's subtle- and I you know- I'm thinking you know the the the grand central is not the same, but grand central has two stairs. One was added in the restoration that wasn't originally there.

P

When new york state allowed them they, they didn't really allow them, but they eventually allowed them to do it through that east stair, which wasn't originally there, but the planners built the balustrades in a subtle manner, to evoke that it's slightly different and they didn't actually mimic the original stand, grand central exactly the same way. So it, I think, there's an argument to be made. A subtle difference, makes sense um and brings you know a nuance to the design.

C

Yeah that was suggested by the committee and the three things that I remember on the forum was a changing collar tone between the front and the back, a horizontal band or some sort, of course, and the other option was to put in shingles on the half floor above rather than the same sizing.

C

So you mix a little material different, but not entirely just in the top floor.

C

So little things like that, I think could make a difference, um and I think it depends on whether, if you're putting all new siding and all new roofing on this, which you might very well, I think you can make the seams work if you're trying to match up an old siding with a new siding. That's where you get into trouble. So I think it really depends on whether that siding under under the front of the aluminum is and whether the roofing material is going to be replaced. One way or the other.

G

But I think in my this is aesthetic, but I think if you even if you could match it perfectly, it wouldn't look as good as if it was a little different. You know, even if you had the ability and opportunity and money don't.

A

You have this is: what happens when you have architects on the board.

K

May I make one last comment not on the parsonage building but on the church building.

D

K

To the deck, I think really needs to be finessed. um I actually think that we should make it much narrower. In keeping with the window, proportion lose the um the side lights make it tall, do something to the top to make it more fitting, with the existing architecture.

D

A

M

All right take a look at that wait.

A

What other business can we address here for you.

L

It's one of those rare occasions where taylor's not asking you.

A

Have no requests.

L

A

Didn't think so.

L

Just to stay well and we'll see you after the zoning board. Thank.

A

You thanks all right, we'll move to our next uh application. This is the continued review of applications for site plan, approval uh and subdivision approval for two.

D

A

um This is for three-story.

D

A

Building submitted by hudson todd llc um we're revisiting this application. After somewhat of a hiatus. I think the last time this applicant was before us was in 2019.

K

John, I just need to note that I have done work in the past for this applicant. Not on this project was a different project.

K

I am not currently working with the applicant and I have not worked on this project. In particular, I do not believe that that would impact my ability to be objective in my assessment, but I also wanted to allow the applicant the opportunity to you know object to my sitting.

A

So noted um hi.

J

Thank you as the applicant I'm.

A

Not sure if you heard karen's announcement.

A

Given that she has performed work in the past, though not on this application for the applicant wanted to make that statement publicly, so it'd be known, and that should the applicant have any objections to her sitting on the board in review of this application.

A

Allow the applicant to voice any objections or concerns.

A

Great thank you and thank you karen, so noted.

A

A

So nothing electronic tonight, okay,.

E

Here's there's a package.

A

You may be.

H

A

P

A

A

What do you need an outlet?

A

H

It was sleeping.

E

E

So we are we using this pediment. Thank you.

E

Is this pediment going away in this.

E

Details worth coming up.

E

H

H

H

Sorry about that, uh so we haven't been here in a while, and uh we used to have a four story. Building now we have a three-story building, smix joe tore him.

H

H

You have continuous frontage on main street ground floor is, is all retail, except for the lobby to the residential above second floor. Nine apartments for elderly people through the new york.

B

H

Also, on the second floor, there's two apartments market rate apartments, so there's nine apartments, total. On the second floor, third floor, nine, more apartments of market rate apartments.

H

This is a view right across main street 172 is existing building 172 main to the right there we're going to keep the existing facade pretty much, just as it is, although we may have to modify the grade to accommodate folks with disabilities, we're going to set back the third floor about eight feet from the facade.

H

And previously we're going to try to incorporate four cross street into this building and it proved to be a challenge for technical reasons. So this this um this plan has that building being demolished and.

J

Is that the building yep.

H

Parking is provided on-site to accessible spaces.

A

H

Two two accessible spaces: uh on-site then directly behind the building on cross street at 10 cross street, we'll have eight additional parking spots spots and then across the street over at 152 main street. We're going to have nine additional off-site parking spots.

H

So we're going to provide 19, although you know zoning requires 27.. So.

J

I'm sorry, could you repeat that.

H

Yeah, so um zoning requires 27 spaces and uh we're not going to be able to provide 27 we're going to provide we're going to ask the board to consider allowing 19 spaces to want on-site and remainder off-site.

A

So could you go into a little bit more detail about those two off-site locations? You just mentioned.

D

H

H

Here's the two spaces behind the building: two accessible spaces: we access those spaces via cross street and then, if we jump one lot over to 10 cross street, that's where we're going to have the additional eight spots. Eight offs street spots across cross street through the public parking lot in this area at 152.

H

We're going to have nine additional spots.

A

H

Sorry is that parcel.

A

Currently, owned by the same.

O

Yes by the applicant.

A

H

A

As well, sorry, I don't- I don't know the um so that both of these are yes, yes,.

F

Is that recent, or because they're, coming up with something different on dutchess county tax map info.

H

I can't say when they closed on 152 they've owned for a while. I know that for sure, in terms of 10 cross street.

I

D

It's just john.

I

Russo's point so parcel access is showing 152 main and then that west main street lot that connects to 152 as being owned by lindley, todd, llc and then 10 cross street is shown as being owned by crossings llc.

I

So I'm imagining lindley taught llc is you know different llc, but common ownership, but across x.

I

So across x recently conveyed it to an entity controlled by the applicant, got it.

A

Okay, thank you for that clarification.

E

And that building.

A

E

10 is going to remain in place such as the parking will be behind it.

H

I'm sorry say that.

E

There's a at 10 cross street there's a structure that will that's going to remain and the parking will just be created behind that.

H

Yeah, only the existing four cross will be raised right.

A

Okay, uh that's how well so then you'd be looking for a relief on how many spaces. Sorry, I'm not doing the math quickly. Nine, eight eight! There you go okay,.

H

We're not asking for an increase of the size of the building we are.

H

We are going to provide below market. You know uh units nine of them for the frail elderly as a public benefit. Also, there's a public space in the corner that we're going to provide and the building um we're gonna we're gonna design this as a to match passive uh house standards, international passive house standards. That's.

A

H

A

Okay, anything else about your most recent updates. You want to share with us before we get into it here.

H

H

Well, we we read mr clark's comments and- and we we're going to have to address all those comments, yep.

A

John, any anyone a highlight for the board that we might want to emphasize.

C

uh Yeah, the um I was asking for more of a justification for the parking count for the senior affordable housing. You know if, if you have more of a description or a letter from the funding.

B

C

Or whatever, to.

H

Describe the type.

C

Of tenants here and why they shouldn't need parking spots right.

H

There is a letter, none of the occupants will be driving. Okay,.

C

I haven't seen the letter if you submit that that'd be good that'd, be a strong argument. I don't know what you mean exactly by frail elderly, but.

D

C

A

Meaning, not all elderly or frail, really.

D

Some get around.

C

Pretty well and others aren't capable of being in a car.

D

C

That's what we're I think, we're most important is to consider that um plus, I guess, um because this has 18 units, it would require a certain number two affordable housing units, and so these frail elderly would be income eligible for that below market rate. Yes,.

H

D

H

C

uh That should be submitted as well. um I'm I was most concerned, I think, about 172 main street. um You know whether there was any changes to the facade.

C

um I know we don't have control over the interior, but it'd be interesting.

H

We're going to match the second floor, we're not sure yet technically what we'll be able to do uh to most of the building, but we're going to retain the streets. Yeah.

E

Is there a? Is there a pediment being removed from the top of 172, because it looks that way in the.

C

H

I was going to ask.

C

H

Did show that as being removed, uh we, you know, that's going back and forth, that's something we we can talk about.

C

H

Concerned about guardrails and and that sort of thing from a technical standpoint.

C

A

Would think you'd want to keep that? I would agree how do guardrails play into this conversation.

H

Well, how the, how they, you know, connect and then and then they any code requirements for guard rail. Why.

E

Is it going to be like a deck area for the.

H

Climb- or you know over over the rail so.

A

What you're saying is you're creating you know: you're, creating an accessible, accessible area outside area on that existing.

H

Roof is that what you're doing I believe, so that's that's going to be so. This would be like.

A

A

I don't know why the pediment would be an impediment to that.

D

H

You know pretty far back say.

A

H

You might have to push the a quite a bit back behind it. Concern is climbing up the pediment over the guardrail. That kind of thing we'll look at that. Thank.

C

You it says I have the uh national ridge. Well, it's the blue inventory form that was done back in 1979 or whenever it was stayed here somewhere, yeah 79, and it said uh they had.

B

C

In the pediment it's only partly legible. It does indicate the construction as being in the 1800s. So I think the pediment is sort of an important feature because it was where the date used to be and.

B

C

The structure is intact and received no modern alterations of special note of the wood paneling in the completely original storefront, with its cloudy glass cast iron columns and woodwork.

C

So the more you can save of that building the better. I think right, yeah.

A

Man, I get it you own it it's in the way, but it's a part of beacon's history. You gotta really think about this stuff. Yeah yeah.

J

The date's, not there anymore, though, isn't it.

A

What the difference personally.

C

Legible, it said partially legible in 1979. I don't know if it's there anymore.

A

Only slightly less legible.

C

It looks like it's, but it still seems like if that's the feature that it was used to date. The building. I agree, it's important.

H

Any rate to um doesn't happen.

C

So none of the exterior of the rest of the building, the storefront and everything is going to be retained. That's what you're saying, except maybe some grading issues for the ada access right.

H

We're going to try to keep as much of this forefront as you can. There is a there's, a step up right now into that building. 172, that's obviously not going to work for.

C

H

Folks with disabilities, so we're going to have to.

D

C

All right well, keep us posted on how minimal you can make it, I think, was the point of my letter.

H

And a green roof yeah.

C

C

I think the you know the architecture is going to be important.

E

Feel the is the tile uh tile floor going to remain in the entrance to 172.

H

uh You could look at that.

A

I don't know I mean.

D

That's right, I think enough.

A

It's a good question out of curiosity to ask.

M

A

We our purview, stops at the front door.

E

Well, this is a adjacent on the sidewalk. Is it? Is it outside the front door, see if it's uh it's part of the old? It was an old department store. It says s con on it, and so I remember this from when it was riverwinds gallery. It's.

A

E

Decorative tile work on them on the floor outside the entrance. That is.

C

Inside no, no right in the exterior is in our purview, got it and.

E

It's getting the exterior.

S

Thank you for having me having us back again. Yeah again, my name is austin harris. I've worked with joe on this project and, yes, uh that's an important architectural feature and it's sort of a really uh interesting uh historic uh um mosaic tile work that we should uh celebrate, not uh just keep but celebrate thanks.

E

Yeah, I think it's the same.

S

Thing with the pen originally, we thought it was important to step back that third floor to give the the building next door sort of the expression. uh As you look at this edition from main street, then the nadero building is really a prominent piece of architecture, and we thought he stepped back so continue to. You know give that relief and continue the promise of that building and then removing the pediment, which is what um architecturally to uh keep the the lines clean and horizontal for those hornets.

S

But now we understand the importance of the the pediment that we will uh investigate, bringing that back into the architectural language and uh restoring that too. Thanks uh as prominence so yeah I mean we see that 172 is sort of that important fabric main street and how our addition can kind of connect to that faculty is our driving architecture.

S

E

Your acknowledgement.

A

E

Thank you. I think my old neighbor sadie khan, who lived to be 101, shared a lot of beacon history with me. I think that that s con that may have been her husband's uh dental office, stuart cons.

D

E

Check with historical society, but.

D

C

The only other questions I had were about the exterior parking arrangements, there's some significant trees in that area, where they're putting new parking. So I wanted to know if they're taking down any of the trees.

C

And fencing I thought the the driveway on the north side of the building was overly unnecessarily wide 24 feet for two cars to get in there and pluck perhaps a delivery truck to back in so it could be down to 10 to 20 feet and, and that way they could have a five-foot planting strip and maybe a privacy fence. um So the back of the building is fenced off from the neighbors to the north.

C

A

That sounds like a real practical consideration. You may want to.

C

The only other thing I'll mention is the uh on 152. The current configuration of the parking allows you to drive in on main street and out on west church and the um site plan you showed us does not make that connection anymore, which would force everybody to turn around and come back onto maine, which we don't want to encourage.

C

um So I would encourage you to continue to have that connection between the 152 market main parking lot and the rear entrance on the church.

C

Because that driveway is tight- and you know the building comes right up there, so the commander exiting onto that sidewalk is not safe for pedestrians as safe as it should be.

A

Thank you, mr russo.

F

While we're talking about parking the two accessible spots behind the proposed building, they have access into the back of the building, but they don't have access into the commercial area.

F

Are you proposing to provide some sort of access from the back of the building into the commercial area, because there's.

O

F

Sufficient room for a route around the building right now.

F

10 cross street so you're showing 13 spaces to be constructed on that the existing structure that is there. What is that going to be used for?

F

I think we're going to maintain that use.

S

Right across is going to remain the same, so we're going to maintain the residential use for four units. There now.

F

More units there now, okay, so that should be provided in your parking calculations and breakdown so that we can see what what the impact.

S

F

Right to the overall.

S

F

Yeah, I just want to make sure you're telling me you're going to be using eight spots on that law. I want to make sure that that parcel itself is not going to be deficient. I.

H

Think I think, there's a 13 there yeah.

F

There's 13, but I just want to.

C

I think that's in the transitional district, which has a different parking calculation for apartments than the cms district, so you'll have to take that into account.

F

With regards to the brief description on secret, you know it should be updated, include the total number of bedrooms and with that we're going to be looking for calculation as previously submitted for water usage, things have changed since last. Submission numbers have changed, so we're going to be looking for a breakdown as to how the water usage within the seeker was calculated.

F

uh As far as a site plan, a formal full-size site plan should be submitted, not just the small.

F

John already commented on that.

F

Jennifer, do you want me to bring up the subdivision.

F

Okay, so when you were previously before us, this project consisted of several parcels since that time, those comparisons. Those parcels have been combined and that's been noted on sheet a3 above the bulk table. I believe the city requires that even the elimination of lot lines that a subdivision plan has to be submitted and approved.

I

Right, if the elimination of those lot lines affects lots that are shown on a filed map on a file plot, so if those lots were shown on a filed subdivision plot in the county and the elimination of those lines affected that filed plot, then this board would need to approve the elimination of those lot lines. So we need to find out were those lots created via a subdivision plot, the three lots that were merged.

I

So we need to find out the answer to that question in order.

S

I

Determine whether a resubdivision.

S

Let's go back into our research on that and we'll provide that. Thank you.

A

F

F

A lot of these other questions, I believe the information can be forthcoming with regards to grading utilities, roof leaders.

F

The other thing is we're asking for is a pre-post analysis of stormwater.

A

Great thanks, john you're welcome, so um just as far as next steps. Of course, we want to talk amongst the board about any observations and thoughts. We have one we'll talk about referring the application to the architectural review committee.

A

um Usually before we do that, I like to sort of make my observations as well, which I will do in a minute. um In addition to that,.

A

We do okay, so we we covered the the fact that, because we had some questions in our earlier review about the uh the parking again, um it looks like we had to discuss as a matter of the board here, the um the discrepancy and how we handle that- um and I believe, there's a waiver mechanism potentially related to this. So we can discuss that now here if you would like um and then.

A

As a part of this, we discussed the potential need for a parking study.

F

By the applicant that was in one of my comments, I was just going to bring up so basically part of the information they provided. They've noted where their parking is going to be located on different lots and on their lot. They also talk about parking being available at the cross street parking lot and also at the parking lot at cliff and maine. Based upon recent parking studies have been done, specifically 1113 walcott.

F

B

There's no parking available.

F

At the cross street parking lot that was presented in that based upon conversations with others, the parking lot at maine and cliff is typically full all the time also.

F

So I don't think those two parking lots can be looked at or relied upon for additional parking. So I believe a parking study should be prepared for this to see where parking could be achieved if it is required.

A

Thank you, you're welcome, so acknowledge understood, understood.

S

Yes, yeah great yeah, I mean the advantage of the some of the parking we're looking at here is just right adjacent to our parcels. We totally understand we should uh do a forward traffic analysis to understand that impact.

A

Great thanks um so.

A

Do we wanna, do we.

D

Okay, yeah. No, I think.

A

It's just as far as um further discussion about parking. We wanna avail ourselves of your parking analysis when you're. When you have that ready, um then in this do we feel the applicants ready to go under the microscope of the architectural review committee. At the moment, I.

B

Almost feel like.

A

There needs to be more um more developed in order to respond to um not going to necessarily subscribe what that is, but um we'll we'll share some of our initial observations here and that and then to that end, um it'll give you some feedback to work with, and then I think it it maybe makes sense for the arb group here to share with you what, when you come to talk to them as far as material, you would want to be prepared for so I'll.

A

Just start with my observations since I am not a part of the review committee, but I trust my colleagues implicitly um and as a fellow professional you have to forgive me.

A

There are times when I make observations that sometimes sound horrible, but.

S

No need to apologize.

A

I will uh and again there's there's. There are two very positive aspects to this um massing that I'll describe right now, one of them being that you've taken pains to break up the facade into you, know manageable segments ones that continue to repeat the rhythm of the historic buildings on main street. The other is you've started to take.

A

You you've paid attention to the transition at that corner through the the change in the geometries and that that cut out, however, so and I'll also make this observation if, if you're familiar with beacon, you're, also familiar with the fact that beaconites are very, very, very, very sensitive to change, so this corner represents.

A

I don't know what for a lot of the folks in beacon, but there you, you will see a visceral response. I need you to be prepared for that um and now you know just share in my experience this community garden um my experience of my daughters, having gone through the school system and having been involved in the community garden and walking through that community garden and my daughter's sharing with me and being so proud of the strawberries that they had grown. We were picking them.

A

We tasted them that memory will live with me forever and that it's just an example of what that parcel, even in its condition, right now means in terms of the memory and the history of people who experience, mainstream unique experiences not experienced in other places.

A

Beacon, is so different and needs to remain that way for it to maintain its character. The the fact that you're taking this away got it it's you're right, you own it. You can do it. What you want, but remember what I told you just one story about a very meaningful moment to a citizen, a resident of beacon as it relates to this lot.

A

A

There are some nice architectural elements to it, but it could be in any other, similar city elsewhere in the united states. There's nothing distinguishable about it. It's one.

B

A

Views you see, as you come into beacon down main street, there's nothing delightful surprising or I think maybe it doesn't need to go that far, but that sets you up for ah this is it. This is an interesting little city.

A

It's like it could be um duluth wherever it could be san francisco, it's like any other new building anywhere in an urban environment on a main street in the u.s.

S

And- and that's a I- I really appreciate that sort of description of the building and I really I really appreciate your sort of historic aspect of the corner and and me as a a as a person who is not from vegan and every time I come down or come up main street. That is such a prominent corner and I we sort of recognize that, but the delicate part of that corner. It's like a knuckle.

D

S

You're transitioning from a historic district, and then you have this: the beacon, glass building there also- and it's like, I don't think you want this architecture to screen.

S

I wouldn't say screen you wanted to be a neighbor you wanted to to weave into the fabric.

S

We took cues from sort of the historic guidelines of how to break it down, to make it seem as if it's um not one large building but segments of buildings uh and and and I kind of challenged the notion that it could be anywhere, because I think when we developed this this area, we were very thinking about being very site specific because, as you approach this building, you get this this.

S

We were trying to bring back that communal area and we're hoping that that corner that that notch will.

D

S

That sort of you know this could be like beacon needs another coffee shop, but it could be another social area where people can gather it could be a arts, an art, studio.

D

S

It could spill out in the street so we're trying to get back to the community with that corner.

A

Fair, let me let me just clarify what I mean about and it really comes down to proportion and materiality at the street level. That's what I mean so, and you know there. There are certain design elements that you're utilizing.

D

A

Including the very large oversized windows at that break point I appreciate that. Yes, it is site specific, you have to respond to the site and I I lodged you for taking obviously into consideration materiality and, of course, looking at the historic district guidelines, but again I'm not going to design it for you, I'm just sharing with you from the perspective of a fellow architectural professional with the.

B

A

That you have a unique set of competing interests to work with and through here that you do so very carefully, very thoughtfully and with the understanding that this isn't just any old other city and that there needs to be there should be. I should say consideration for that moment that experience and the one that elevates and delights, because you're taking again you're taking away what at first glance as a blank parcel, but that carries many many memories and holds a place and you're taking away. You know an older building can.

E

I add something to that.

A

E

To send when I, when I wrote to the mayor of beacon, asking to be considered for membership on there on the planning board, I wrote about this neighborhood and just to add to what john's saying is that the the block to the immediate west and this, and also this block on a second saturday evening?

E

It fills with people, sometimes there's somebody playing guitar on the low roof of the glassworks and when the sun sets the whole street turns gold and there's. I don't know if they're chimney swifts, but there's like chimney swifts that fly back and forth from the mansards to the west of this and between the buildings and across the street, and it the area fills with people. It's probably the most.

E

um You know kind of joyous crowded area in the warm weather on a second saturday and so yeah. It is a magical neighborhood and I'm so yeah. Just just to add on to that, I think you'll people are going to have really strong feelings about the fabric of this area and that's.

S

Why it's important for us to work closely with you? I mean I mean I mean the reality is going to be developed and it's very important that it gets developed in a right way that it gives back to the community, because this.

D

Was a community.

S

I mean that's in the point of history: this was a community uh garden.

S

I mean I heard at one time: it was a pizza beer that burned down years ago, yeah there were buildings, so you know history is so fluid and it you know how we respect the past and incorporate it into the future is very important so to us, it's very important to sort of work with you to get that feedback, because this is our initial uh status at sort of this development, and I think the comments that come out of this community uh will be very important on how we sort of to me as an architect.

S

It's important how we treat that streetscape speaking on the weekend is truly lively. I mean, and- and we want to pull in that that lively um that energy, but we also want to give back the energy that this corner had at one point and that's why it was important for us not to build out that corner, because I mean zoning wise.

S

We could have built out the corner, but I think it was kind of like saying: hey, let's step back and become part of the community and let the community activate in this corner uh and I think, like.

T

I said working.

D

S

This with this group is going to be important for us to sort of tune this into a building that is beacon, fantastic.

A

That's great, it's good to hear. Thank you so and again, thank you for your patience with my diatribe just about every new building application gets this some form of this speech or another. So um thank you for listening and yeah.

H

Appreciate that input.

A

Great um yeah so we'll look to next month to see where you're at in terms of, if we're um are recommending you to the erb, we'll see if we're at that point by then, but um other than that, any other observations or input. You guys want to leave it with.

K

Yes, I think the mural deserves. uh Oh.

E

Yeah, the rick price mural.

A

Yeah rick price gets that back right.

J

A

Not be able to store it but yeah what happens to the mural.

S

J

Lot of wall space in here.

J

Yeah, I I just um I remember in your the last proposal. The plaza area in front of the building at the corner was larger, and I thought you did a very clever visual, where you showed that the size of this room superimposed on that space, and so I'm I'm curious. How how big is is the new space that you've left on the corner?

J

How does that space compare with this room.

S

um I don't know the numbers off the top of my head. I would say it's about uh three-quarters of the size that we had before, but we can get back to you with those numbers I mean and again it's I think we were half.

H

The size of this room.

J

So those kind of visuals are really helpful for when you're trying to win over.

J

uh Maybe that's too strong a term, but um just for the public and us to see just to really be able to put ourselves in that in that place. So um anything you can do visually like that. I think will be helpful. I also think there's you're going to hear about four cross street too.

A

You're gonna you're gonna hear a lot from the public at public hearings just be prepared for that.

C

Just to clarify for the board on four cross street uh that was initially recommended for hdlo status and during the public review by the city council. It was taken off the list consciously by the city council and.

B

They said they said.

C

They didn't think it measured up which surprised me at the time, but it it has no protection.

C

It was considered and decided not to be given protection, so I don't think we have any standing to do other than maybe document anything and important about it. When it's.

D

S

Okay and as joe said, we we really looked at trying to incorporate that into the design, and you know.

D

S

A number of factors, including that was from outside the outside historic district. We just thought it was going to be very, very challenging and we kind of have you know three different types of building kind of married together.

H

We knew we to match up four heights at 172 and then try that yeah.

C

I know I know the only real really distinctive part of that building is the doorway and the paneling.

N

And everything.

C

Inside there you might be, I mean I think, you're going to have an exterior stairwell door coming off the far corner. Where that building used to be you could use that paneling and recreate it. Perhaps.

A

Yeah, I would I'd also note sorry that when you, when you address the you, know, adjacent buildings now this this whole situation is going to be considered two just relative to what this facade as it turns the corner looks like what its relationship to this scale is. These are important things as well, so we don't want to.

S

Forget that I thought we had an elevation of that street, including the package but you're right that in in addition to that street point. Turning that corner what that facade looks like. Maybe it's a place.

A

Yeah there is one yeah I didn't see it in here.

S

uh And I understand the comment like what what does that return wall look like and it should be a blank wall. Yeah.

D

A

S

Can I, but again you can see the challenges of saving that building on this street would have been part of the.

A

Surgery, I mean it's, it's you know.

S

And and so the parking lot gets breaks to the lower scale, residential.

A

Yep, but just again, what that, what that facade looks like it's you're staring now right at a brand new neighbor here. That um would probably be very interested in what you're, as as, are we what you're presenting to them on that facade, yeah.

S

There'll be some openings for their partners here.

A

Okay, um kevin jc was sort of next on deck.

P

uh Yeah, well, I I I just want to reiterate, um I think, there's some nice sensitive things that you've done here with the update, and uh I do think that, because that that's not just a corner lot with the history that john talked about, but but it's at a point where the main street bevels or turns you as you project as you go from 9d you, you really see your corner right.

P

You're dead on access, just like hudson beach class, as you know, is dead on access, as we drive west from the other end of main street, and you can really sometimes when the sun's hitting the right. You really get a nice view of hudson reach, glass and so we'll get a nice view of your building.

P

So I think I personally think that, um like, for example, among the things I like about the proposal, the setback on the building, an existing building that could create maybe a a space for some residents or you know an opportunity to, like you say, break up the building. I think the corner is what needs still more work, because I do think that the um the void uh is not quite there. Yet. What what?

P

What you're trying to present to the you know, a public private space could maybe um keep it in mind the visual, the strong visual connection to the axis of main street. You know it really wants to welcome people as they drive and as they walk towards your building.

P

S

And, like mr emma said, I think it's important for you to sort of have a sense of what that space is size-wise, but also is it the right shape? Is it the right dimensions now we should continue.

A

To talk about it, great thanks, kevin.

G

Yeah, actually, I really like the the building itself like the proportions and the way that it's uh the massing, the way that you use shadow and the reveals between the segments that are deep, so you're um and the base right and even uh what might be a controversial at some time, a full glass retail entrance right because there's a place. I believe- and we've had this these arguments for uh distinctive contrast right uh in in a it.

G

But it's a uh it's something that um you need to have uh control over right, because it's a whole composition and people experience it as a whole thing. We all look at things. We look at drawings. We prove these things, uh people that are coming to town or they've lived here, all their lives.

G

They have, um uh you know all, have unique and different uh ways that they're gonna react to all these things to these spaces, but, like I said, the first thing I want to say was, like I'm glad, somebody's putting a cornice in this town that does not have brackets and and still um uh reflects right, the um the fundamental uh uh sort of the fundamental uh uh blocking and massing of mainstream right.

M

So you're using.

B

G

So one of the things that I think that you should try to do- and I would suggest, is that you maintain a kind of um a strength of vision, right and and confidence where, where there are parts where I can tell that you're with the massing the where you're using fine detail and other things, it's the where it isn't developed, and I think it's because it's the most difficult problem, it's the thing that people are going to focus on is that is, is the way that it's it's approached from a distance right, because it's the hello for the whole town now right, I feel like it's there and um I think jc touched on this.

G

It's what you've made is is a good choice, fundamental choice which is you're, creating a void there right which, um like in venice, they do this right. They create space, they don't necessarily create like a ton, a tower or some object, that'll be silhouetted.

G

There's the the building itself can create the silhouette and the shaping of that space that you see, but it can't be too bold, like you said, but there are ways to sculpt that space so that it has a presence right, so you see it and it and it makes an impact, but it doesn't um uh because of everybody's gonna have an opinion on this. It doesn't speak too loudly right and it doesn't speak to a little. You know. So it's a total tight walk. It's a tight rope to walk for that space.

G

There's another aspect of it, which is a socials part and len brought this up. That's this intense intersection! If you're coming here on a second saturday on a nice day, you guys know this right. It is jam-packed. This is where all the characters in town there's john kilby, there's all these people that we know that are friends of ours right that literally flock right on that corner, partly because it's too tight right and it's a little dense and it's terrible for cars right.

G

But it's really good for that kind of human dynamic and the that's why you should have an open space there and I'd like to recommend john, if you ever, if this ever can get worked out that this, uh that that cross street at that period at that space could be, uh could be blocked off with bollards and turned in just on second saturdays right. I I think it'd be totally appropriate to have that part to widen it out. You know and have uh some freaky deadhead band playing or whatever the hell people want to do.

G

You know just whatever the community.

B

G

That's active okay, sir.

A

K

Nothing else, I I appreciate your sensitivity and I I think that the the architectural detail that you have um developed for you know the main street and the cross street sides aren't reflected yet in the cutout.

A

Great thanks, yeah.

C

I think that's. The thing that sticks with me is that there seems to be some really interesting stuff going on on the two facades, but the cutout, which is the most, is plain by comparison, and it just seems like those windows there, you need either like a glass canopy over the space or something to lighten up that corner and make it you don't have to put a tower there. I like the idea of an indentation, but.

J

Except on second saturday, late.

S

A

Thank you. We appreciate your listening again.

S

I think this is going to work. I think, with your help, this is going to be a really successful project, fantastic.

A

S

A

Yeah you you happen to have approached a board with every single member being um creatives in some form or another. So.

H

A

A

So we're going to excuse jill in a moment.

A

Okay, so with that, we moved to miscellaneous business.

A

Anything we need to cover regard to the happenings of the zoning port. At the moment, yeah they.

C

Were all area variances? There's nothing boring.

G

I have a question: is that is the zoning board going to be ruling on anything? Were they just.

A

Use your mic: okay, just checking.

E

Thank you, john.

A

So then that brings us to a request by 32 north cedar street for an extension 190 day. Extension hi, hi.

N

I'm sitting in for dan kohler tonight. um Yes, we are requesting one 90-day extension um there's been some legal issues with the drainage easement that I believe has just been resolved. So we should only need one 90-day extension and we should have it all wrapped up. Probably for that.

A

uh Motion to approve one 90-day extension for 32 north cedar street.

G

A

Motion by lens second, by kevin, all in favor aye.

N

A

Thank you. Thank you and.

D

Then, although the written agenda has two.

C

Do we have two architectural.

A

Reviews or just one no.

D

We have two, we have a.

A

Certificate of appropriateness for 473 main street.

C

And then you have this yeah.

A

And then the party and then right that came that came in late, okay,.

K

A

So is the is the applicant for 473 main with us.

E

A

You put your tie on for.

D

The certificate of appropriateness.

K

Yeah he's going to be appropriate. No.

A

Q

P

Do they have to be? I was.

A

Going to say, do they need to be me.

J

K

J

Looking at what they've provided and you're okay with.

A

They should be, they should be able to defend themselves. uh What do they got.

P

A

Wait what's here.

K

Yeah, why does it need to be 10 inches fat? That's one question.

P

I haven't even seen oh yeah wow.

D

A

Sign yeah, it's big.

P

It's 36 by 24., oh.

R

A

D

G

A

Is very thick which, which begs the question: why.

D

A

Some form of lighting or something planned yeah.

Q

I didn't speak to them.

A

There's really not much to work on and I do have some questions here.

E

A

Be present next time. Thank you.

A

I feel like I'd. Do it you.

E

May approach the bench right he's wearing a tie, because the full size sign actually is on a high tack.

A

Yes, so we've got, we got some things to discuss about this particular sign.

A

First, I know that we like to um maintain levity and camaraderie. So I will ask then, is that what you're trying to do with this application.

L

Good evening, mr chairman, um so as you recall, uh we had a lengthy review of the applications that had started. uh I mean this was this goes way back for the proposal, we're here tonight purely to review. As you mentioned, the one sign uh proposed to enter into the public central public green space on the property, um the sign, I think there was a question or may have been a question about its orientation.

L

It is facing uh skank, so it is not facing maine or or north or south on main, so it faces directly on maine. That's why it is a one sided sign, because it's there's no real value of welcome. When you're exiting the central pub green space. There was one note the resolution to call for a wood sign. As you recall, our client was very much opposed to installing any signage period.

L

Yes, didn't think that it fit with the aesthetic or the design of the space, but we understand that the board had a particular interest in having it having a sign to identify it, including there was also language included in the resolution that after a year, um we could appear back before your board.

L

In connection with a request to even modify or change that sign because of the extent of the discussion about this sign, um but we did put the language that's specifically provided for in the resolution onto the sign, so it says: welcome open to the public dawn to dusk, um the one other caveat being it's a metal sign which we think is an improvement over the wood proposal, um which again we're really trying to.

L

I guess- go with the the aesthetic for the the overall layout of the site and the design so that that is really the only. I think change does incorporate all that was requested um and we're here, hopefully to seek your approval for that uh important for the board of. For those that aren't aware, we did already we, the applicant, has already submitted a building permit application uh to the building department, so they're shuffle ready to roll. um This is a condition currently written as a condition to issuing the building permit.

L

I I had thought- and I and I I didn't tease- I said good job to jennifer gray. I thought it was a condition of the certificate occupancy, so I was certainly shocked uh when I saw it as a condition of the issuance of a building permit for a for a sign. So she.

A

Got me it all comes down to this one little sign it.

L

Sure does emphasis.

A

On little signs.

L

Literally, it comes down to the.

E

Sign how much? How much of the sign is glass and how much is actually wall.

L

There's no kick plate on the sign.

A

My first observation would be: can.

A

Wouldn't one want the um lettering registered to center of sign, that's number one, and then this scale is it's diminutive and it's at your knee. So.

A

And just based on the size of the face itself. That also means, then, that the lettering is even.

D

A

Almost one could say unreadable which may be the intent of the applicant, so I would say that the sign should have a little bit more prominence.

M

And readability.

A

And to that end, what are the, what are the dimensions of the letters themselves, and is this in fact, the font that you know my steamed architect.

L

Tells me I don't have that so I'll have to did you draw this? He didn't draw that no. I was.

A

Going to say that no.

L

We can get we'll get to that information we can provide, but I think importantly, we're here to confirm that the board would be okay with one sign, as I mean again is the the metal, the court and steel. Is that just some of the aesthetics you know? Where are we on on on that aspect of it? I can certainly bring back to the the applicant. You know the.

K

Size concept- and I don't with the quartz and.

L

K

Do you read the sign if the letters are just cut out of it and they're.

E

Starting to grow.

A

Yeah, it would probably have the exact same color planting behind it.

A

Yes, I think it would be very challenging to read unless it's behind something with contrast like you're showing here that can't be guaranteed, I agree, uh is it intended to be lit.

L

I don't believe senator.

A

L

It's only opened so many hours of the day and, as is during the.

A

Day um so yeah I mean, as far as the materiality that that's fine.

L

I expect the preference not to be lit because it won't be open. No.

A

I don't think we're able to read it yeah, that's that was. That was more of the point of the question.

A

This will be almost not reading.

K

Maybe certain instances half a block away, you should be able to read it and be welcomed.

G

Like was the intent into the.

L

Right and all right- and you I don't need to- I don't- want to bring up but old discussions, but the owner's intent and the applicant's intent was to not make it affect negatively the the space it was to try and make the space welcoming it does not. We we modified significantly. I don't I'm not going to reiterate the history of the site, but we changed that entrance to the site significantly. We, I think, I think, importantly, the materials sound like they're, they would be a metal sign would be acceptable assuming it's legible and readable.

L

K

The letters are somehow contrasted contrast.

L

A

But also you know that I'd love to understand the dimensionality of the sign itself, like what is.

P

This it's 11 7.

A

No, no, no, no! No, it's very small! So what I'm? What I'm trying to understand right? What's the depth of this thing, does it have a sort of a that's.

L

A good question.

A

And that is this sort of paddle board shape the only shape that you know the.

D

Mushroom shape.

A

G

Does kind of look like a mushroom okay, once again, it has to be a type of mushroom if you're gonna do a.

D

L

D

G

L

Like when you cut them the portobellos, you know the right way. Yeah he's got to cut it perfectly.

E

It's 24 inches tall and 24 point text for consistency.

L

So if you'll call just one, I would make one note just for signage purposes like we'd, be notified, we'd taken a picture of it included in our original submission. One of our submissions to the board during the review was the greenway trail. Signage, that's posted. It is smaller than what well I I shouldn't say that I'll have to get you the exact dimensions of the one that we submitted, but it's not a large sign and that's the point. It's not supposed to be it's just like it's not a sitting trail and.

A

That's it still good. I think look just understand that the walking trail we are we're we're very sensitive to the fact that the applicant does not want any sign whatsoever. So we appreciate the attempt to come with as little sign as.

D

A

So fair, I think one of the biggest the biggest concerns is that ability to read it right and therefore the contrast would have contrast.

E

And you raise a good point when you talk about the greenway trail sign, because I walk past the one on churchill all the time it's at eye height. It may not be a lot bigger than this one. I was trying to think about it and I can you know you're, probably not being.

N

Too far off the fence.

E

The overall size of it right, but it's eye height, it's the lettering is painted on it and the contrasting colors. And it's very there's the trail and here's a sign at eye height, saying: hey, open, you know open to the public. Look.

A

There's a way to do this and by everything I've seen by this applicant. They have taste so this applicant knows how to do this, and I know this this approach. This attempt is kind of like a half of a to say yeah, so it can be done, it doesn't have to be huge, it doesn't have to be loud, it doesn't have to scream and it doesn't have to detract so can.

P

Can it can we request that the letter in the upper case.

A

You could make that request. Sure.

G

I mean it says: comic sans, you know.

E

I don't know I don't. I think it's fine, if it's lowercase as long as it's big enough and legible enough, I mean I have.

C

A problem because it's not pointed towards main street, it's parallel with skank, because.

E

That was so, it won't be readable.

C

Until you get halfway up the walk, yeah and it.

D

C

To me, if you wanna, really welcoming people, you put it perpendicular to the street and you make it a two-sided sign.

L

Then you're gonna say put a sign on the front of the building. You're gonna. You know we.

C

Had this conversation, we.

L

Did have this conversation during the.

E

We've never we've never had a satisfactory answer to this conversation because we.

A

E

Have had this conversation and, and my concern is that, like I said with with the studio the live workspace backing up onto the public green and some restaurant seating, if I didn't know better- and I walked by something like that- I'd be like that's not for me. Unless.

L

Unfortunately, the public isn't and that's the point of why we added that or why the condition, if I recall why the condition was added to the resolution about one year from the approval being able to say we can come back for you and potentially ask to either remove the sign change. The sign modify it because it is a learned condition. It was a full discussion with the board about coming to the site, learning.

M

About it, knowing.

L

It's there, it's it's new, it's cool. You know we get.

A

It just just based on john's recommendation to pivot does not amount to an escalation.

L

Billboard, I assure you with my clients it does so I assure you I'm not doing that.

E

You're clear mr clark, I'm.

L

Just trying not to open up some different cans of worms, and we hear you about the letters I think we can do something about the size. I think we can modify it. You know to have a better background. I'm just trying to.

G

I don't want to draw john, can I I I don't want to, but I I personally feel like this a little bit. This is a little bit rude. I I think this is disrespectful to the intent that we tried to walk, uh talk through and and I'll the other thing about. It is it's like that that stonehenge rock in spinal tap, it's so small, and it looks like this. It's it's almost a joke.

G

The way that it's made and- and I personally feel a little bit put off- I don't even care about a number of the things that went on there. That were, I don't think a lot of them are pertinent, but but I I I I'm a little put off by.

L

Man this is, I mean I don't only interrupt, because this we had a very lengthy discussion. I understood this was going to get heated, I'm just here to present to you the proposal. I've heard the comments I'm going to bring them back to the client. I can explain if this is not. It is a small central public green space. We need to be rea, we have to have.

L

We have some reality of what it's a it's, a unique opportunity in a particular area of of the city, and it's been it's it's a great public benefit, but it is not a large park by adding a large sign at the entrance.

G

The whole, the other thing that makes me mad, is that I didn't think that this was worth this was ever going to be worth a public benefit for the fourth floor. So what they have in is they've subverted in some ways. I think the entire.

A

Old history kevin, I know it's a whole nother discussion is annoying about.

G

This is this: take back.

L

It's well known, it's not a take back by.

G

L

Our client's position is, he did not want to sign we're, proposing a sign. The comments that I were heard we're going.

A

To bring them back, she's responding right now to the sign guys we're not.

L

E

The applicant has a building permit.

L

Submitted and is willing.

E

To build a three million dollar.

L

C

Right here trying.

L

To build a three million dollar building right now,.

C

Did the board amend the resolution to change it to a certificate of occupancy, so you'd have time to get a decent sign and wouldn't hold the building permit.

E

We shouldn't need a lot of time at first of all and.

K

This sign doesn't need to be uh like parallel or perpendicular. Maybe just can't it just slightly.

L

I can I'm gonna bring all these comments back. I will defer to mr clark's comment because we're not trying to say it has to be approved tonight, we're just asking if the board might see fit of modifying that condition to reflect that it be approved by this board prior to co rather than prior to building permit we'll we'll get back in the lab.

C

Why should you hold the building perm up for a month? I'm fine with that.

A

Because, obviously, you're not.

E

Going to get what you want.

C

E

You know, then, then maybe that does get held up if people, if people don't come prepared to to hash out ridiculously small items,.

L

Oh wait. I've already agreed that I didn't disrespect you. I respectfully disagree. I've agreed to bring these back to the client and I'm representing that to them I'm not objecting to what you're suggesting, by any stretch and.

E

So I think that's not.

L

Totally unrelated to the building permit, it wouldn't be appropriate in this particular.

E

I don't think it's an affront to either side until.

L

E

Somebody describes it as like a rubicon. Oh my client's.

L

A three million dollar building and there's a pending application. All documents been filed, everything's been reported. All he's been conditioned. All resolution conditions have been satisfied.

A

You guys, I see no harm in allowing the applicant to move forward with their project and allowing us and the applicant more time to work through this.

E

I didn't create the conditions for them to to.

L

Be hung up, it is I'll defer to.

A

The planning board.

O

L

I understood this to be, I I understood when we discussed it during the review, the project, that it was a certificate of appropriateness and if it was our miss in reviewing it during the resolution that is our you know, I'll, take that fault onto our own, which typically we'd, review and say sorry, jennifer, that I thought I understood that to be at ceo. Only did we realize that, which is why we had to ask miss grogan, to put us onto this agenda because the building permit had been submitted.

L

We thought we were there at that process. So if we have to take the the hit for for being for not reading it correctly, I understood that this was a condition of the co, because these are science, signage sometimes often does happen, post approval once a building is built and the tenants are there. This is signage, so it's not the building. It's not the foundation, it's not anything else. It is a more of a of a final piece. You don't build the sign. First, you build it last.

I

I'll say as long as the sign would as long as a separate permit can be issued by dave for the sign and the sign wouldn't be enveloped in the building permit. That's issued.

I

I think that that was the issue for having it be a condition of the building permit, because you want to know, what's going to be constructed, you don't want you want to know the full scope of what's encompassed in the building, permit, that's being issued if the sign can be permitted separately after the building permit for the building and the park is, is is issued by the building department. I have no objection.

A

To moving it to the co, and I think it's really reasonable to not hold up an otherwise acceptable application simply because this one issue has lingering sour grapes associated with it. That is not a reason to not entertain seriously the applicant's request for what we just discussed, so I'm in support of it um so, um and I will impress upon my other board members that it would make very good sense for the rest of us to be in support of it too.

A

I'm fine with that.

G

E

I I gave my you, you got my free pass on 23 28 creek drive.

A

I don't understand, but um so we would have to act on this. Then.

I

Yes, it would have to be a motion to amend the resolution to move this from the building permit stage to the certificate of occupancy stage, and you would need.

L

And we're talking about materials that are going up by the day supply chain issues you're potentially putting the whole project at risk by delaying it. I appreciate that I can't represe my client is not here. I can't tell him. Can you tell me the answer to this question right now, so you're really making it's a much bigger issue than representing by a sign respectfully.

L

So I'm only asking you modify the condition specific to the co, nothing to do with the fact that we're not going to spend as much time as is necessary with you, which could be two years, given the fact that that's how long it probably will take to fully complete the sign.

A

Will go up before this building can be occupied, understood so.

L

A

That's what the control.

E

I appreciate I appreciate absolutely what john, what you're saying and that we should be reasonable. I also would say, though, if everything you say is is realistic and, and things are that dire if it was my project, I would be here sweating bullets until this was resolved and not be like. Oh man, the client's, not here you know sorry.

L

We're here, for that reason, we're here, just simply, you know I make light of a lot of these things. This is a this. Is I'm I'm being fully serious with you, and I think you can tell by my tone and my directive here. This is not a drill. This isn't taylor being funny taylor. This is, we have a serious issue. We have a developer and a contract, a general contractor who has money, bonds, filed escrow in place to build the building to get the materials we have them on order and they're going to sit.

A

There and next time that's well appreciated, and I also.

E

A

Len's point: if it were me as an applicant I'd, be in an oh moment. I.

E

Wouldn't be able to sleep, the.

A

Best, damn passable sign possible, or I just.

E

L

I'd be here, I'm sorry that my my presence here doesn't I mean I that's why we're here they he. He trusts that we're in his best interest and working hard well,.

E

Then why doesn't he empower you to make the decision for him.

L

Well, I've already agreed to modify the sign to be to be larger change. The letters I've agreed to your conditions, I'm just asking you modify this, so we can actually get the sign that you want, instead of making a sign tonight that isn't fully what you want. I'm trying to give you.

E

What you want so is the condition that we get to design.

A

It, though, can we design it and then listen. This is ridiculous. I'm.

L

Trying to give you the sign that you want.

A

It is the trade-off is that the applicant and us get more time in this scenario to work toward the right solution, which we know it isn't right now. There is no point in holding up this applicant simply because we can't agree to it tonight, based on the fact that I don't think it's an appropriate submission, but that doesn't mean we don't have mechanisms and controls in place to make sure we get there. So so.

E

The resolution will say that it goes to the cfo, but the dimensions of the sign and the height of the sign.

D

I

Seated so that they've done it to the planning board, that's that's already within your purview, you, you need to approve the signage whatever. That means to you whether that means.

A

We'll have we'll have two years to spend laboring materials exactly.

E

I don't know, I don't want.

L

To that's what.

E

I

We're just talking about the timing and.

E

Nobody wants to do that. Yeah.

A

I'm just saying you know, because I think, based on this conversation did you sorry did you forget something.

C

A

Better, not it better not take two years to get to the right sign, so I'll accept a motion to prove amending the.

R

I don't know exactly how to word this, but what jennifer said to.

L

I

L

G

A

Whatever, okay, when did we get.

L

I think we need to vote.

E

Because we need foreign and so basically, if I don't say I, it will be on my head that I.

L

It's not on your head, expanded on somebody's funds, yeah.

E

And so I'm gonna be reasonable and say I, but this is the second time I've been put in this situation. Where I have you know a concern about an applicant. You know kind of like jerking us around and because of you know, four votes.

A

Look, I get it in the large scheme of things, it's a small element to it, and I understand that there is a.

D

A

E

Very good what's frustrating is this is just.

A

L

This year,.

E

Will continue into the future for eternity we.

L

Appreciate it, I don't expect this to go that far. I intend to bring back your serious concerns. You know we make light of these things for fun and I will say to make light of it, as I normally would. I would have asked to move myself up in the agenda so that I could have a jill here to vote, so you can.

E

Vote, I appreciate your usual levity. Yeah, okay and I you know, I understand the seriousness but.

L

Yeah, it's very different than the sign. There is levity there, but the seriousness of the building itself is a different, totally different story.

A

I I think I think, we've made our points.

L

A

Very clear and hopefully.

L

Thank you for helping convince us to the applicant.

A

Yes, and that you know thank.

P

A

Thank you. Thank you.

O

A

To adjourn motion.

K

A

Jc seconded by karen, all in favor.

D