Carroll County, MD Board of County Commissioners Open Sessions, 25 Feb 2021

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From YouTube: Board of Carroll County Commissioners Work Session February 25, 2021

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https://www.carrollcountymd.gov/government/commissioners/board-of-carroll-county-commissioners-weekly-agenda/

A

Okay good afternoon it is uh 13 35 and we're going to be talking about we're. Having a discussion on.

A

What's our discussion we're talking trash, we're talking trash, solid waste, wow, okay,.

A

Let's, let's see some folks light up, jeff cliff and eric, I expect you're all on, and I know you don't.

A

Have faces for radio so pop your face up there. I see you, okay, jeff. You want to start this off.

B

Actually, I'm going to pass this over to eric. He has an opening statement to uh kick this off.

B

So he wanted a little face time with the commissioner. So here you go eric.

A

Careful, what's your name really thank you, mrs. uh We were before you on january 14th, to discuss.

C

Options to make the solid waste enterprise fund self-sustainable during that presentation, the.

C

Board requested some additional information you're here today to present the requested information.

C

And to further discuss the options available to you, make the solid waste enterprise sustainable.

C

Fund and with that I'll pass it over to cliff to give you this presentation, okay, good afternoon,.

D

Commissioners, I had to be careful because on my copy and still said good morning, uh we're as derek.

D

And stated we're before you today to follow up on prior presentations as well as further discuss.

D

The solid waste enterprise fund, we have a short presentation, after which we can entertain.

D

Questions and further further the discussion in the format of the uh the work session.

D

Okay, it does turn okay, commissioners, you've asked previously for a path to sustainability, for the.

D

Solid waste enterprise fund now that same question has been posed for at least the last 20 years.

D

Without finding a solution acceptable to prior boards,.

D

Now the reason we are investing general fund dollars into the enterprise fund is because, in.

D

The 90s the county, made a choice to transfer waste and took on that significant cost without creating.

D

A new revenue stream to cover it and we've discussed that before general fund dollars.

D

Have been required ever since, and the problem is getting worse as the management budget and.

D

Dpw staff have stated on numerous occasions. We cannot fix this solely on the expenditure side.

D

Little things can be done and we'll continue to do that and continue to look for efficiencies.

D

And cost savings, but there is nothing on the expenditure side that can remotely fix the problem.

D

Revenue must be generated and there are only a few ways that can be done. Given the current operations.

D

And markets tipping fee adjustments can't solve it in a practical way and we can't set the tipping.

D

Fee high enough to cover the general fund transfer and not lose waste in the associated revenue.

D

A significant tip fee increase was tried in fiscal, nine uh tonnage was decreased to tip free revenue.

D

I'm sorry, tonnage was decreased tip, fee revenue decreased and the same thing could potentially.

D

Happen depending on what we do with the tip feed today, if the board wants to balance the general.

D

Fund or the solid waste enterprise fund on the revenue side, there are really only a few choices.

D

So if, if continuing the general fund transfer.

D

Is not an option that from external and internal studies and evaluations over the years.

D

These are the potential paths to financial sustainability of our current fund model.

D

Each has its benefits and and challenges were pursued by prior boards for various reasons.

D

These paths are the following: first is some form of waste flow control? That's either legislative.

D

Flow control through a county ordinance directing trash to a county-owned facility or the county.

D

Implementing collection districts in some form, so we take control of the material and of the revenue.

D

If we mandate it all the way solid waste in the county comes to northern landfill.

D

A tip fee structure can be set to cover enterprise fund costs.

D

Flow control would need would be needed to support other programs such as pay as you throw.

D

Because we would then control the waste stream, which today, we do not through the free market.

D

The subscription service flow control can also be legally challenging and for.

D

A variety of reasons, including support of free markets prior boards, did not want to pursue it.

D

The second path, if flow control is not desired, is we need to identify a new and different waste.

D

A revenue stream and again we've discussed that previously that different revenue stream.

D

Could be a system benefit charge of some form that again, we've discussed previously? If we want to.

D

Solve this on the revenue side, but are not willing to implement flow control, the system benefit.

D

Charge is a path; it is a potential path if that is a desired path. The conversation would then turn.

D

To what would it look like in detail and how would it be implemented at that point, we would.

D

Need to engage a consultant with expertise on the subject to be able to prepare detailed models for.

D

Presentation to the board, those models need to be defensible. They need to be financially defensible.

D

And need to be legally defensible and that's why experts would need to be called in on that topic.

D

So, third, if neither float control nor a system benefit charge, are desired.

D

We couldn't thoroughly investigate eliminating waste transfer and some at some level.

D

And returning to a full disposal model until landfill space is exhausted,.

D

However, this path would likely have many consequences, including reducing the landfill life.

D

To between 12 and 15 years also require a long-term plan that we need to be developed.

D

For what happens after the landfill closes at that point, do we return to a transfer model, for example,.

D

Or are there other properties that can be acquired to continue on the disposal model.

D

Lastly, if none of these options are desired, since we cannot fix the solely on the expenditure side.

D

Then we are left with where really where we are today, a general fund transfer which will grow over.

D

Time with no path to self-sustainability of the solid waste enterprise fund.

D

Now one thing I'd like to mention: while we're on these topics.

D

It's clear that one of our prior presentations may have unintentionally allowed for some.

D

Conclusions to be drawn, uh particularly on the uh the sbc I just want to say, or we want to say that.

D

Really given the given that we cannot guarantee what a private sector company.

D

Would do in an open market? We can't state whether a particular resident's overall trash.

D

Disposal cost overall trash disposal, cost would go down or up in a system, benefit charge scenario.

D

Following our last presentation, we had some success in our outreach.

D

To haulers, regarding what their service charge under an sbc environment may be.

D

And looking at that information, as best as we can determine, this is again very very.

D

Small sample size, a hauler's service charge, is roughly 75 percent of their bill with the breast.

D

Covering actual waste disposal costs again, that's a very small sample size.

D

For certain it varies, uh company to company does not all haulers operate under the same model and.

D

Again, we could not guarantee what any individual hauler would do under any free market force.

D

Again, as I mentioned very short presentation, uh the purpose of this, for this would be more of.

D

The work session we want to thank the board for your time. Thank everyone involved in all these.

D

Presentations that we've put together and helped us with our with with the details of them at this.

D

Point turn the work session over to the board, uh so we can have the group discussion and direction.

E

If, if I can ask one question cliff, um why do we have to be the one to transfer.

E

The waste, if we had an mou with a another facility somewhere all the.

E

Waste goes there, let them transfer it, we would cut down what comes into our facility tremendously.

E

Is that a possibility, I'm rethinking the whole.

E

The whole landfill differently than what we've been doing. Okay,.

D

You have to look at it from a couple of different perspectives. uh Whether we could do that.

D

Whether we're talking about a public sector partner or a private sector partner,.

D

Would make a a huge difference in what direction we can go in.

D

From a flow control standpoint, it has to be to a facility that we would own and have a financial.

D

Interest in from a contractual standpoint, I am not familiar with the the subject deep enough.

D

To know whether or not you know we would be able to put that out for bid.

D

Whether we'd have anybody reply at all and if they did what those costs would be.

D

And whether it would really truly be a at the end of the day, a savings for us.

D

The keep in mind that the tonnage that goes across the scale that revenue, regardless of.

D

Whether we eliminate the transfer operation or not, if that revenue, if those tons decrease the.

D

Revenue decreases and, to a great degree, that gap in between that deficit, slides along with.

D

It it's not linear, it's not for every ton that we that we don't take in okay. That time you.

D

Know that that gap then goes away now one of the things I want to mention that that leads into it.

D

Is that we do have uh through budget and finance or through management budget? There is the.

D

The budget plan the operating plan that we work on with the budget, analysts and others.

D

It's a very comprehensive plan and we've been reviewing it closely with that group and want to.

D

Make changes to it so we could maybe more easily address or identify what those changes would be.

D

Again, it's in the short year that I've been here, we've been looking at a lot of things.

D

uh But in in the need is to go a lot deeper on that to really make a um to really make.

D

A solid determination we don't want to present bad information to the board or to the public.

D

It it has to be accurate, and we would really need that much deeper dive if it could be done in this.

D

Short period of time to get that answer and I'm not trying to dance around it, but that that's the.

D

You know that that's really the bottom line of it. In addition to that, we would, we would need to know.

C

Are you are you suggesting that all the haulers and the residents go away, because, if we're leaving.

C

The landfill open for residents, then we still have a residents- could use the facility. We have.

E

uh Modified somewhat- and uh I have my own we'll get into the residential end of it. I'm talking.

E

About all the commercial industrial waste going somewhere that they uh let the private company.

E

Handle all the transfer and the money that would cut down everything we need at this facility now.

E

Residential waste, yes, we still have to call people bringing in themselves and all the little.

E

Peripheral things we still have to handle, but I'm looking at changing the whole system. We have here.

E

Looking differently at this, I'm looking at it from a person just from a business point of view here.

E

uh Eric, that's your yeah, it's your cue, uh but uh what I'm looking at is not. You know.

E

Not widening that gap because we've been doing the same thing for six years and it's not gotten any.

E

Better that I've seen I keep asking for you know some resolution to it. We're going the wrong way.

E

We gotta back up and look at this differently than we have and start to look at how this can get that.

E

The ultimate goal is down to zero. As far as out of uh our funds uh general funds for to run this.

E

So we have to look at. Do we have to transfer that much trash? Is there another way to do it? Can we.

E

Just shrink the whole thing down, I mean that looks at manpower, equipment, everything we we don't have.

E

The expense for it, even if it gets down to 200 000 a year, that's a big savings from where we are now.

E

So yeah I'm looking at this from a totally uh optimistic uh point of view and you guys are the.

E

Experts on it, but I need feedback from it so to commissioner, to that I would say if you want this.

C

To the business to operate as a business, it is a landfill business. We are not landfilling in that.

C

Landfill business and that creates a huge hole in what we can possibly do so absent you all giving.

C

Us direction to move forward with landfilling at that landfill and making money that way.

C

um These are some of the other, so that's a dead end street. That ain't going to happen.

F

Remember, revenue received by this um operation is, and only is the various tip fees. So if you're.

F

Suggesting- and I made me misunderstanding you that that that we don't accept trash.

F

Therefore, we don't get a tip fee, we reduce and possibly eliminate if we send all the trash.

F

Someplace else, all of our some portion or all of our revenue, um we might be able to eliminate a.

F

Few costs, but we have several fixed costs in the system. The closed landfills, the maintenance of.

F

Northern landfill, because even if it weren't closed, it would still have to be maintained.

F

um If you're going to accept residential trash, there, then you're still not going to reduce.

F

The amount of usage there by significantly, so I think I think you know if the board directed.

F

Staff to study it, we could certainly study this, but um I think we'd be maybe going backward just.

F

In general, it sounds like we'd be maybe going in the wrong direction. Revenue-Wise. We have to see.

E

If we could have a private enterprise come in and take over the trucks or a lot of the traffic.

E

We still have to keep some scales up because the residential waste and all that.

E

Take that off of it have them take care of the transfer and hauling, and all that.

E

That reduces our revenue. I know that because we're not bringing it in but then we look.

E

At residential waste- and I was watching one day when I was in there- it's just pulled up.

E

I watch the you know, truck goes down, gets the can, as residential waste runs around takes around and.

E

Dumps it and I think jeff, you know in fact you had a plan one time that residential.

E

Waste went right into the truck that hauls; it uh have a plan to it. We have to get efficient.

E

In what we're doing here at this site uh on that, so the residential waste goes across scale.

E

Pays a tip fee or whatever it is put them into a truck. We don't touch it instead of running it back.

E

Back and around uh four different cans in there transferring them dumping them, bringing them back.

E

uh It looked me like we were going in circles on that one, so efficiency in that part of it plus we.

E

Still have the recycling and we have the uh the electronics and all these little aspects that I.

E

Think you or cliff gave us the information on that some of it makes money. Some of it doesn't. I think.

E

We still have a probably responsibility with those, but looking at this differently, we don't need to.

E

Handle the volumes if we can get a private hauler to our private uh company to do it. It's a thought.

E

Yeah yeah, you know, that's fine, commission weaver. Let me ask a question you mentioned uh with.

D

Regard first, it was diverting the uh the waste hauling vehicles away. So I assume you mean the.

D

You know the ones that are not everything other everything other than the residential haulers, but.

D

You also mentioned about bringing somebody in some company in to do what we're doing on the facility.

D

Assuming that you mean on the facility itself, the transfer operation at the transfer station.

D

Whether it's recycling or waste that is already privatized out- and we don't- we don't touch those.

D

Trucks that come into any waste that comes in from a hauler or from an account holder.

D

Anything that goes back to that transfer station not to the bins but back to the.

D

Transfer station that's already managed by an outside contractor and those contracts.

D

Were just you know are going to be extended here very shortly, so that piece is already being done.

D

If we're talking about, then what our employees do and what's managed at the facility.

D

We manage the like, I said, the container drop off and absolutely that could be.

D

More efficient if there was a way to to dispose of that material into transfer trailers, now derek.

D

Can can chime in here if he, if he has the data, but I know we looked at that a few years back.

D

It was not, it did not make it through the budget process, but before I got here.

D

Somewhere upwards, I believe the whole entire project was either five or six hundred thousand.

D

Dollars uh in cost, which is likely why, at the time that it did not go forward, we get the drawbacks of.

D

That on the property, where we're at now, and I think where that facility was going to be.

D

Is within the limits of cell four? That's all that's not built, and I really believe that.

D

You know we have already. We already have too many things sitting in the middle of the next.

D

Cell, that have to be moved at some point in time and perhaps adding one more to it uh may or may.

D

Not be a good idea, depending on how long we can get, how much time we can get or life we can get.

D

Out of that, what that facility would be, but again from the from the residential waste the containers.

D

uh The homeowner recycling lot publicly maintaining our facility and for others, those.

D

Are the primary jobs of our our operations crew at that facility? And you know we have six operators.

D

uh Two foremen so essentially eight uh people that are in vehicles or in trucks at any given time.

D

We did have more than that several years ago. I know the head count had been reduced.

D

uh After the last recession, so there are things there that need to be.

D

And investment needs to be made in and probably increased, more than decreased.

D

And a real good large hard look around the facility would really and other facilities.

D

Would really show that, but again I guess the biggest point was that we are already. You know.

D

Have a good part, good portion of what's at that facility already subcontracted out to third party.

G

If I may I'll, I'm gonna have to state, I am extremely disappointed and this is a work.

G

Session I mean if this was my business. I fired a person and just put this together, because I really.

G

Thought that you guys, who all get together and run all the numbers of the expenses coming in now, what.

G

We're receiving and breakdown in revenue. How much is costing us and all these different elements to.

G

Transfer out and a long-term projection of what we could potentially do to change the management.

G

Of our waste, whether it's investing and restoring the landfill and moving things around I mean I've.

G

Been out to the landfill numerous times talking to dwight amos, and he expressed me the things.

G

That needed to be done, and now we are sitting here and I've heard nothing about any of that.

G

I want to see numbers. This is like trying to set up a business enterprise and nothing that was.

G

Presented to us today in any way addresses that you know if we're bringing in all this recycling.

G

We're charging, you know things. Thirty, five dollars a ton: it's cost us 140 they're the numbers we.

G

Should be looking at as commissioners, we need to be analyzing those numbers and breaking them down.

G

How to figure out how to shift things around how to reduce your transportation costs? Because it's.

G

Obvious that transportation cost has eaten us a lot and if we can make the investment and open up.

G

A new landfill, like I think mr amos advised me we should be doing then that's what we should be here.

G

Talking about what's our long-term projection, do we have any civil engineering, plaques and.

G

Layouts of potentially what we can do we got. None of that all we get is a couple bullet points that.

G

You want to express to us, but this does nothing for us to make this decision. I really thought.

G

Is a work session? That's what we're going to do when we have work sessions on zoning we break.

G

Down all this stuff, this isn't a work session. I don't know what this is. Besides a waste of time.

A

Well, actually, let me uh chime in because I understand your intent. uh What you're sharing.

A

But for me it's understanding a problem. You know before we're coming up with any solutions. It's.

A

Really getting to understand the problem more and more, just like we did with uh director mccoy.

A

You know, and it's it's not necessarily the baby steps, but it's ensuring that we all see what the.

A

Problem is in front of us and then moving forward with different options and different opportunities.

A

So I understand you know, commissioner boucher your your drive to get into the meat of it, but.

A

Taking a step back, even though we received one information briefing, this allows us to cross.

A

Talk on seeing okay, are we all seeing the same problem, and that is that we're continuing to use.

A

General funds to subsidize the enterprise fund and we and that is not sustainable.

A

You know and now we're looking at okay, what are other revenue options? What are other opportunities.

A

But you know I, I think you're two steps in front of where at least where I am and understanding the.

A

The grandeur, the the larger picture of it, so you know my my recommendation is: let's.

A

Continue having this crosstalk and it may not be very long, I mean we have two hours scheduled.

A

You know if, if it's uh 45 minutes to an hour with it, it is, but I think this is a.

A

Very important step that we need to take not just for us but for the entire community as well. So.

A

That that's, commissioner you're exactly right. uh We need to set it down. I think our ultimate goal.

E

Is zero percent uh funds for the solid waste fund? We need to extend cell three for as long.

E

As possible uh out there and that's why I was looking at diverting waste from carroll county.

E

To uh private place or somewhere, so we don't we're not dealing with the volumes. You know.

E

Those are three major areas I've been looking at uh here and it did efficiency for the uh ones that.

E

Bring in their own residential waste, but all the heavy truck traffic diverted to another site or a.

E

Private site somewhere like that to re seriously relook at the whole package. The way we're doing.

E

It if you, if it was your site, you had to start over, how would you build it to extend cell 3.

E

Not have to put cell 4 in place for years and get rid of the waste and meet our obligations to.

E

The citizens of carroll county- that's that's what I'm after I don't mean to be.

E

I've been thinking about this too long, and uh I need to get everybody up to speed on it. So don't.

E

Take it uh personally there at all, I I get it did you, commissioner fisher first have a what.

H

What do you mean by flow control? You mean every all. The trash that's generated in carroll, county.

H

Goes to our landfill and where we make sure that happens. Is that what you're talking about.

D

The flow control in one form or another- and that's usually it's either by legislation.

D

uh Or by controlling the waste ourselves through collection, districts, you're controlling the.

D

Material therefore, you're controlling the revenue. What you end up doing with that material, whether.

D

It's landfill transfer or some other technology down the road. The tip fee structure gets set.

D

Based on that material or based on that volume material to cover the cost of that operation,.

D

We are losing between 40 and 50 000 tons of waste a year to the transfer station. In thanks part.

D

And that's from a mde state report: now you can look at it. Two different.

D

Ways it's revenue coming in that we're not getting yes, it's also in our current model,.

D

No transfer costs that were they were spending. So it's a double-edged.

D

I complete and I'm sure the whole group does completely agree with commissioner boucher.

D

A long-term master plan for the facility may be looking at as commissioner weaver.

D

Said start from scratch and see you know which direction we should go in.

D

I know I've mentioned that very first presentation back in march after I started.

D

It is something we don't have. The master plan has been we're going to transfer indefinitely.

D

To extend the landfill life so yeah, some of those goals are, you know, maybe competing goals.

D

But it certainly needs to be done if there is infrastructure that needs to be replaced.

D

Landfilling generally is the most cost efficient way today of handling waste.

D

We also don't know, what's going to come down the pike regulatory, wise.

D

That may or may not allow us to do some of those things that we're talking about.

D

Down the road you know I'll, you know pass this off to somebody who knows who is more.

D

Familiar with the uh those bills that are pending in annapolis, but they're going after.

D

Multiple uh waste management schemes to try to not to basically outlaw them in the state of maryland.

D

So it may be the case. We want to do something today we might be allowed to for a year or two and.

D

Then regulatory everything changes and we have to put the brakes on and go in a different direction.

H

Okay, the last time that we met, we were talking about a system benefit fund.

H

And the question was asked, I might have been one ask it. I don't know uh if we went for the.

H

System benefit fund and everyone paid, I think the rate was 170 a year. We wouldn't have tipping fees.

H

But how would the municipalities handle that? Are they going to give a tax break to the people.

H

Because I live in the city of westminster, my trash is picked up by the city of westminster. Take it to.

H

The landfill I pay that out of my taxes, so how do municipalities going to handle that.

H

Did we reach out now and to them, and I I thought that we were going to so.

A

I mean, I think, we're talking and jeff before you jump in, because I I think we're talking two very.

A

Specific issues, one is, you know, the the landfill itself, the capacity in the landfill and then the.

A

Second, you know is the budget, is you know, how are we going to sustain either the landfill and.

A

Or the enterprise fund yeah, but one rules, the other. Well, one rules and we've been we've been.

I

Briefed on this since march yeah, but one rule is the other it's just um we got. We got to figure out.

A

Is this a fee approach? Is this what you're going after um or would you mention that what I'm sorry.

H

Guys, no I'm just I I mean yeah. I mean that one rules, the other. I I don't know because the.

A

Landfill's got a specific capacity right, that's it and once it's filled, it's filled and from.

H

What we were told, we cannot raise the tipping fee enough to cover the two and a half million dollar.

H

Difference I mean we could raise it, but then no one's going to come. So therefore, that's not one of.

H

The options so so flow control regulating people bring stuff to us, not in favor of that really.

H

But the system benefits fund if there's no tipping fee, and that was what we discussed, but we had okay.

H

How's that going to affect municipalities- and I think you said already clipped it- would be about.

H

25 percent of the for most haulers, that's 25 percent, of what they charge as a tipping fee.

H

So that that's a very, very, very small sample spot. But please keep that in mind. But at least.

H

We have something to go off, of which we didn't before, so whatever you pay, if you pay 400.

H

Now you're paying 300. got it and that's just generalization. But what about the municipalities.

D

Well, we're paying for.

E

System benefit charge doesn't necessarily uh solve our problem and solves our financial problem, but.

E

It doesn't solve the landfill problems. We still have the cell three filling up cell four coming.

E

And the only thing is it solves our financial problems for a number of years.

E

But now we still have to deal with our future here at the landfill and what we're.

E

uh Extension of that cell or any of them, and no I'm sorry about the lag time in these.

E

Virtual meetings, I didn't mean to cut you off cliff, but just.

E

That couple seconds makes a big difference here. um You know, I looked in the you know the charge and.

E

Yeah, that's solved some of the finances but doesn't solve our initial problem at the.

E

Landfill, but it does in a way, because if we can still transfer trash out of the landfill from.

H

The meeting we had a couple years ago, if we're going to do it, the way we're doing it right now.

H

With the new compactor that we bought everything else, that landfill will last about 100 years is.

H

What I was told, I remember writing that down about a hundred years, if we continue transferring stuff.

H

Out so if we use the system benefit charge, so we can continue transferring things out of there.

H

A hundred seventy dollars per per person or per household or business whatever.

H

Per year, that's something that we certainly should be looking into so therefore it brings.

H

Our our money from the general fund to zero it will have to be adjusted every couple years or so.

H

I understand that everything else is adjusted too. So it's my gas electric bill. I understand it.

H

But if it extends the light so 100 years of the of the landfill that we have now.

H

And it's you know: it's possibly saving some money. If you're paying 400 now you're paying.

H

300, so for your hauler to take your trash to the landfill, if you're taking it yourself, then you.

H

Don't have to worry about it that the hauler fee I mean, but again what about the municipalities.

H

Are did you contact municipalities? Are they going to give a break in taxes or anything else.

B

When I'll jump in commissioner is, um we did not reach out to the municipalities.

B

And there was a question that was asked: is the situation not knowing the direction we're going.

B

In you know, every municipality can run things different. They may choose to not adjust their.

B

Taxes, uh they may have a tax increase that year because of some other expenses and they choose.

B

Not to adjust um if if, if this one goes into place, um if it was a choice that was made.

B

You know there's too many variables with the with the mayors and in councils of how they.

B

Would how they would handle that and adjust that? I know when we did the pays to throw.

B

We provided gift cards back to the citizens, for the tip portion of their taxes that they paid.

B

But whether the town would have continued on later on, after the fact.

B

It was still no determination was made during that process. That would tell us whether they would or.

B

Would not uh because it is their their mayor council would have to make those decisions and.

B

How they wanted to handle that right? I understand that, but, okay, let's go on the assumption that.

H

Like city westminster, they don't collect their own trash; they they um contract it out.

H

Let's go to the assumption that the con who they contracted out to saving 25.

H

Because now they don't have to pay tipping fees.

H

So you know, I don't know, because what is the city going to do with an extra 25? I don't have any idea.

H

But I we- and I did mention this last time we should reach out to them.

H

You have any plans, they say, you know, we don't know fine, but at least we reached out to them.

H

But they say you know if we're saving 25 percent now and uh all things being equal, we'll take 10.

H

Off a tax bill, or something like that, that's something that we know that we can work with.

H

But not having that information now after the last meeting and we asked for that information.

H

It's kind of frustrating yeah and I I I agree and jeff I mean there's eight municipalities.

A

It's not like you know, 250 and yes, they may have different variables or different approaches, but.

A

Having the discussion saying that we are looking at this problem set focused on the the funds, the.

A

Enterprise funds and the landfill specifically and approach him with that. I think that does add value.

A

To help us come up with a county-wide solution, um one does like commissioner wayne said one one is.

A

You know associated with the other, but right now it's still very difficult to understand.

A

You know um how we can lessen the impact on the landfill you know and, like commissioner frazier.

A

Said if there's a way to lessen the impact in the landfill and make it last 100 years.

A

Or whatever it may be, then we should know. What is it going to take to do that, and is that.

A

You know uh palatable to the county. I mean it's very difficult, especially now in a pandemic.

A

And we're going to be asking the county residents an additional 170, what it may be.

A

You know, in addition to all the other things we're trying to do, it's going to be very difficult and.

A

This may not be the time to be reaching out to the county for any additional, and when I see the.

A

County of the community for any additional dollars. So that's my that's personally. My biggest concern.

A

Right now, yeah the only way I would do that is, there's a savings somewhere yeah and that's what.

H

I want to find out if there's a savings somewhere else right and one of the savings is going to be.

H

Saving that landfill for x amount of years, because the permitting in new landfill putting one in.

H

You're talking tens of millions, it's not a hundred million dollars. To do that, I would like to try.

H

To avoid that for those 99 years right yeah, I would too, as an example, the town of new windsor.

B

The gift cards, I believe, were like 30 or 35, which covered the tip fee for one year for the residents.

B

The way it worked out, which I'm not sure what the total tax bill is, but it may be in the line of.

B

One tenth or two tenths of one percent of their entire tax bill.

B

Is tip fees because the rest is going toward all their other operation and costs.

B

You know we so I'm just bringing that point up. Is that it's it? It may be on the fact of.

B

Tip fees, it's it's negligible and even on a small town in a smaller town of new windsor.

B

For what their tax bill may be so commercial, you know we have so many variables in this.

E

uh Even the one you know, hauling leachate away, look what it's costing us uh trucks.

E

The tanks, the manpower to keep that going away. What is the cost of running the sewer.

E

Line to the landfill and hooking up, can it be done? uh You know we look at.

E

Can it be transferred somewhere else and what would be the cost to us? What would we say what.

E

Will we lose? um How can we um you know? I think we have to look at each of the uh recycling entities.

E

And how do they fall together? What should we have, what shouldn't we have uh if we're losing money on.

E

It, maybe we don't need you, we have to meet our state 37 or 35 percent whatever it is. uh There.

E

And what happens if we don't, but uh the other part of it is uh maybe some of this should be diverted.

E

Into the solid waste and uh sold somewhere or gone, but you know each of these little aspects and I'm.

E

Sure, there's about 20 different areas here and how can we make things more efficient? How can we.

E

Do some of these things all have to be looked at individually and then put together as far as the.

E

Total cost savings- this is this is a tough one and cliff. I wouldn't want your job for anything right.

E

Now uh but um I see this is uh the way we have to look at this to go through each one. Is it possible.

E

To get that sewer line in, is it possible to divert this, and what would it be to benefit to us.

E

Is it possible to extend cell 3 for 20 years.

E

uh And how we do it is expect you know not to move to cell four uh for that longer than that.

E

You know, that's that's what I'm hoping to look at in this and the answer is, I don't think you have.

E

Right now I really don't uh this is uh we have all theory, but do we have the answers and finance of.

E

Financial aspects of that no- and I think we really need to see this spelled out line by line. uh How.

E

It goes right now we're all all over the place. Looking at things, we have to have a line by line.

E

Of what revenue comes in landfill, what can we change from it and give you guys some freedom to.

E

Make those changes, or at least propose them uh without you know some, maybe there's a.

E

Reason we can't do that, but I think, as the people responsible for it, you have to have the freedom.

E

And lead way to make those suggestions and what's happening with the montgomery county mur for that.

E

Type thing anything or is that just a cry in the sky uh thought the uh the regional murph that was.

D

Being discussed, I might have a better answer on that from the authority. You know perspective.

D

I know that they're still, you know working through uh what the scope of that would be.

D

Who's going to be a partner who wouldn't be, but I still believe it's it's still deep in the.

D

In the study phases, not yeah they're still going through the finance we're still going through the.

B

Financial um investigations on that and to locate a couple properties to site such a location for.

B

The next step to be for all of us to come together and we'd, have to get multiple counties to agree to.

B

Construct operate manage market for multiple years to come, because the only way to make something.

B

Of this sort, work for all counties is we need. You know close north of a quarter million tons a year.

B

Of recycling to come to the facility to make it anything, that's marketable and the materials have.

B

To be clean enough in order to market it, because if the material isn't clean, it has to be removed.

B

From the facility- and it goes to somebody's landfill to be lit, it has to go to somebody's.

B

Landfill, whether it be transferred out or to be disposed of, because it's not marketable material.

B

So these are the things that you know, while our percentage of contamination is down.

B

Drastically from where we were years ago, from the efforts that the efforts taken, some of the.

B

Counties may not be, you know, have it as clean or you know they have other methods to to treat that.

B

These are all things that we're trying to take into consideration as we're studying that.

B

Aspect of it, it's it's! It's all a vicious cycle here and just what you're talking well. First of.

I

All that system benefits charge is a fancy way of saying tax. Yeah, I mean it's. The taxes of taxes.

I

The tax so be careful. How do you camouflage it? I understand that completely, but we're taking.

H

Out a general fund and we're getting that money from taxes right so you'd have to really, as you.

I

Say you have to really identify where the savings would be exactly uh which would be critical here.

I

And to your comments, jeff, uh you know we're already seeing you know, I I contacted you guys.

I

Last week, because the state legislature put in a a house bill and a senate bill.

I

And you know, while all of us are continuing to go round and round and round like hamsters on a wheel.

I

The state legislator legislation is hearing this, so now they want to put bills in that's going to.

I

Make us do something we have got to try to get on a fast track here and stop going around that.

I

Wheel and I don't know if that's getting us all set and together, I question really the the.

I

How the uh the waste authority, what are they doing for us again, I mean shouldn't they be really.

I

Out in front of this and saying here here we go, it seems like they're on the wheel too,.

I

Aren't they the guys with the answers they're the they're, the tool to get the answers? uh We have the.

B

We have the groups together to where we can all collectively uh put studies together and.

B

Market that the legislation that just went into place, um the authority in in.

B

None of the surrounding counties, including the own cam, the same county, that that legislation.

B

Was put in uh public works, didn't even know that bill was put in until after it was posted.

J

That's my point: jeff right we've got the the all-powerful annapolis that thinks now that they.

I

Can do this for us and they're going to tell us what to do well, wait a minute we're going to pay.

B

For that to be done, whether whoever does that study, the maryland department of environment.

B

Does not have the money you know, unfortunately, doesn't have the money for that and it's the.

B

Fox building the hen house to watch the in-house, because that could be additional legislation that.

B

Could come out to us later? On I mean those are some of the fears that we do have.

B

With that, with other mandates that are out there, environmental and uh others that we know that you.

B

Know while today um you know we have some high costs that are against us today. You know this any.

B

Legislation that comes through this upcoming year or two could heavily impact impact. Our bottom line.

B

For years to come, and commissioner uh weaver just to touch upon this, the line we would.

B

It is our understanding we're still investigating uh when we made the agreement and the cat.

B

The board uh previous boards uh made the decision to go the route of expanding the.

B

uh Sewage treatment for the pre-treatment facility versus the pump station in line that.

B

It took the chance of us of ever connecting into that sewer line off the table. um I know there's.

B

Been some different administrations since then with the city, so some other conversations possibly.

B

Could happen, um but you know we're still in the middle of a five plus million dollar, almost six.

B

Million dollar project to enhance the you know, that was the commitment that was made for us to.

B

uh Reconstruct that pre-treatment facility, um so we have that expense along with, if we were.

B

To change routes and add this to it that would impact on the suit on the uh septage facility.

B

Side of things we'd have some higher expenses there. That would have to be addressed also.

C

um We are the kept facilities, the biggest customer, so chad, real, quick.

A

I'm sorry ted, if you can, um you know, talk up a little bit about if we left.

A

If we left it the way, it is by transferring money from the general fund.

A

um The impact that it would have is there a hybrid approach and taking some from the general fund.

A

While we're looking at other ways to minimize this or mitigate this, because again it's a it's, it's a.

A

Landfill issue and it's a a dollar revenue issue and uh I'd like to get your thoughts.

I

I can't I can't can't hear you didn't hear you ted, I thought he was praying yeah. I know I wasn't sure.

A

I thought I saw a hand grenade in his room check your gear wheel. I haven't heard that for a while.

G

While he's checking his gear wheel, jeff back to my question, the north, the the the northeastern waste.

I

Management or who, whatever they are, that acronym, you can't say their.

I

Acronym which is troubling to me, because it's all the rest of you say we call it the authorities.

I

Okay, the uh well that's troubling. We need to call the authority. Well, I don't know anyway.

I

Isn't their approach? Look? Look we're all going through this. I know that county executive elrich.

I

I had a conversation with him there. He doesn't know what he's going to do down there. They.

I

Don't have any, they have no more land to put any landfill on, so they've got to do something there.

I

I talked with johnny o same thing in baltimore county calvin balls having a problem in howard.

I

County, the the I can't understand why maybe the answers here are the regional approach. What.

I

Ma, maybe that's the answer. Maybe we all pull our are our monies that we have together and and.

I

Whether it's here that, wherever to to to begin to to fix this- and I thought that was what the that's.

I

Isn't that on the the authority to do that and aren't they working on that they're working on.

B

And some of it is done on an individual basis, some of it's done on a partnering basis. Some.

B

Of the decisions and negotiations and management of contracts that we currently have we're teamed.

B

Together with frederick county and they manage those contracts and manage those negotiations,.

B

Because we, you know we're a small player, I think we're a small player in in this.

B

In this field, with only a hundred thousand hundred twenty thousand tons of trash a year,.

B

Coming out of our facility we're up against areas that take up a million tons a year.

B

So you know we are a small player we have to team with other.

B

Other surrounding counties- yeah montgomery county, has their own. um You know recycling center. They.

B

Have their they're large enough and have the infrastructure to do a lot of things themselves.

B

Except they're facing legislation- and you know in some direction that their.

B

Incinerator will be go. You know, environmental concerns that their incinerator goes away.

B

Well, it's also putting strain on us because that trash has to go somewhere and if they don't have.

B

Landfill space it needs to transfer to a local to somewhere over the border, maybe in pennsylvania.

B

Which may push us out as a small player from going you know, transferring our trash to pennsylvania.

B

Now we need to build a rail system to send it somewhere else right. I know that's and that's the.

I

That's the struggle I'm having here. I can remember in the last board that we sat here and wanted to.

I

Know what the authority was doing for us. Remember that remember that conversation we had and.

I

You know what is the money that we pay them do for us. You dennis you remember that and dick you do.

I

uh Tell us what what our fees do for us? Well, we need help, so I don't care whether we're big little.

I

This seems to be because of the fact that we're seeing annapolis get involved now.

I

This is a regional problem. There's got to be a way to pull all our resources together.

I

To to to either try to repair fit whatever this problem, we're all in this together.

I

So I I'm frustrated a little bit with with with that. I I'm frustrated, because I hate to see bills.

I

Get put into annapolis, which is the beginning stages of them, thinking that they know better.

I

Than us and that troubles me, we have got to get on top of this or else they're going.

I

To tell us what we're going to do and then I don't know what we're gonna do.

I

So I just hope I just wish we could all get together at the table. uh The regional folks.

E

We came very close to pulling out of the uh authority. I think if you remember right.

E

Out of a couple years, several years ago, four or five, but uh just dropping it and going on our own.

E

uh Your your question's right, what are they doing for us and right now, we do need help. We have more.

E

Questions we have answers, um uh you know I I everybody does. We need to put this together.

I

Yeah, that's my point. Everybody every county is struggling with this right now, not in the same.

I

In the same quantity- and I get that jeff.

I

But but basics we're all. We all have those same questions. All of us.

B

I I I I hear you I understand, and this is why we're looking at a regional you know this is why.

B

As part of the authority, we're looking at a regional murph and looking at, could that work.

B

Would that work would everybody participate that needs to participate? Would everybody agree to.

B

Participate for 20 or 30 years into you know, you know a 50 to 100 million dollar facility.

B

Or whatever, maybe, to make to operate, manage and maintain it for years to come, um you know, could.

B

You know the marketing alone over the recycling, and where does that res? Where does that material.

B

Go um you know you always there's, there's the staff upon staff that that manage that um with.

B

Trash, yes, some have incinerators. City of baltimore brings it to you know both some of baltimore.

B

Counties goes into the incinerator. Incinerator goes away, yes, they're going to have difficulty if.

B

You know I I understand, and this is exactly where this is, where we quiver every time something comes.

B

In the legislation, whether it's environmental, you know and we're, we want to be good stewards of the.

B

Environment we care about the you know we care about the air quality. We care about what we do.

B

You know how this is handled, we care about what happens and some of these other counties, because.

B

Of the volume they have could greatly impact they've already invested in their infrastructure.

B

It's difficult for them to change paths in order to for everybody to come together at the same.

B

Table would be, you know that becomes difficult, and these are things that we're working on and.

B

We're trying to work through- and this is what we're working on with the authority as they.

B

Renegotiate our deals to save us money, I mean we could have been 160 a ton with recycling. You know.

B

And then negotiated it down to where we are today, um you know by in its by those teaming efforts and.

B

It's the market against their their legal team. um You know it is the ongoing maintenance and.

B

Management of those contracts that we don't have the staff to maintain and manage them.

B

So that's where a lot of that comes from, I think, ted's back on roberta's spot.

B

um You know- and I do want to hear from you- we've been doing this for an hour. I feel like we've been.

A

Going in in somewhat of a circle, what I want you to think through whether you can answer it right.

A

Now or just a little bit, what do you need from us? What guidance do you need from the board of.

A

Commissioners, to take in the next steps forward to allow to come back to us to allow us to make.

A

A decision because, right now we cannot make a decision because there's no specifics thrown at us.

A

To make that decision, so if you need some specific guidance above and beyond what you've already.

A

Received like going to municipalities, commissioner frazier shared to all the other comments that we.

A

Made you got to let us know, because right now, I don't know what guidance more to give you.

A

Except what we've already been saying, so I want you to think through that the the three of you.

A

And then uh you know after ted maybe come back to us so ted. I I like to hear from you if he.

A

Got a sec: can I break regardless computer? Now you're, we got you. Okay, good! All right, go back to.

K

Two two things the commissioner rothschild asked: I want to kind of no wrong answer. I'm sorry, sorry,.

A

Okay, that that's that's at least 20 push-ups, so yeah, wow um personal, it's better when you're, muted.

A

Yeah no kidding you had a voice for silent movies on that one.

A

Sorry, yes, you are go ahead. Everything that we're talking about here goes back to our original sin.

K

We took on a big new expenditure without figuring out how we were going to pay for it. We've been.

K

Living with that for 20 years, the only reason we're talking about this now is is because of that.

K

Now, a lot of what you have talked about, the things that you think we should have done.

K

Are are looking for things that aren't big enough to fix this problem, even if we could find.

K

Hundreds of thousands of dollars expenditure savings. I don't believe we can.

K

But even if we could we're looking at a problem of millions of dollars,.

K

There isn't enough money being spent on stuff other than transfer.

K

To get anywhere near solving this problem, so when we talk about, how can we fund this in the future.

K

And this goes back to what cliff said at the beginning of this conversation and why he.

K

Said what he said, there really aren't very many options here that can truly resolve the problem.

K

We can continue to live with what we have the fund is unbalanced and we just have to make it up.

K

The only reason we're not doing that are planning to do. That is because the board said.

K

How can we stop doing that? So that's why we're talking about this.

K

But if you want to stop supporting the enterprise fund, the things you can do.

K

That are big enough to change. This are what cliff said to you earlier. You can require the.

K

Solid waste to come to you and then you can set the tipping fee wherever you want and you.

K

Can make it balance or you need a new source of revenue? I think system benefit charge. Is that.

K

Source of revenue, maybe there's something else. I don't know what another option is, but if you.

K

Don't want to do flow control and you don't want to create a new revenue. Then you are stuck with.

K

Saying we're going to fit we're going to continue to subsidize this and, along with everything else,.

K

In our operating plan, we're going to have to figure out how to make that bottom line work.

K

Everything else we're talking about, you know sure we can try and you know, work on things, but.

K

I don't think there should be any assumption that people aren't already thinking about these things.

K

And trying to find ways to to make this work, I think cliff's reality is. He probably doesn't.

K

Have enough funding to operate the uh the landfill the way he probably wants to the way he should so.

K

You know I, I understand your desire for a an easy solution to this. I understand your desire to try.

K

And dig in and figure out how it can make this work, but I don't believe those paths are are truly.

K

Available to you and I think what we need- and I don't want to speak for jeff, but I'm sitting here.

K

You saying what do we need from the commissioners? I think we need to hear from you that you're.

K

Content to continue subsidizing the fund that you're willing to explore a system benefit charge.

K

Or that you're willing to explore flow control, I don't see how it's not one of those three choices.

K

Well: okay, let's make sure you're done, but that's the reason I'm I would like. I would like to look.

H

Deeper into the system benefit charge because we're taking about two and a half million dollars.

H

At a general fund right now to subsidize solid waste now that two and a half million dollars.

H

Is competing with the dollars for the sheriff's department, firing ems schools, everything else. I.

H

Don't think it should be that way and we took that money out. Have we the assistant, benefit.

H

Charge left that two and a half million dollars in here we have more money to do other things with.

H

And right now we need to add additional funds. We really do, and you know every time we subsidize.

H

This and we look over- let's, let's increase the the fee for this um service or whatever and.

H

What we have done in the past, that's actually subsidizing this. The uh solid waste as well.

H

And we're raising all those other things and- and I know it's a tax- I know that but either going to.

H

Tax over here or the tax there, why not say what is for that's what this is for? I I mean there could.

H

Be another way out of it. I don't see it right now. I would like to know more about the system benefit.

H

Charge, I really would I would like you know again. I would like to know what the municipalities.

H

Might do they don't want to do anything fine, and then we know that, but I I just think for 170 is.

H

What we talked about last time for each homeowner in each business in carroll county to pay.

H

I think it's a viable solution to this problem because, again the tren the landfill keeps going.

H

For another 99 years and we're not worried about on the revenue side of rates a yes, I know it's tax.

H

The other taxes, on the other side, it's just it's just a balancing act, but I would like to get this.

H

To zero, somehow you're gonna have a huge push back because you're gonna have the folks that.

I

Go to the landfill that take their own. There is that group of folks would will be more boisterous.

I

I think than even the yeah, the folks that get their trash picked up, but they won't have to.

H

Understand wait a minute you're going to charge me to go across the scale, but yet you're taxing me to.

I

Go no we're not going to charge you go across the scale, that's what the thing is. If this goes.

I

Away with that, yes, no one should no one pays to go across the scale. If we do this, that's a savings.

E

Dennis I think, that's a band-aid on where we are that's right now, I'm looking at this landfill.

E

Long fought long term, I'm looking out for lance's grandchildren, his great-grandchildren here.

E

In this county we can only bury so much for so long. That's gonna surface eventually or come back.

E

To us somehow we have to solve the entire problem as we're looking at it and look big picture on it.

E

We don't need yes right now. We need to get the trash out of here. We can't bury that much.

E

What other options do we have, and I I want to for one I'd like to say cliff if it was yours, how can.

E

You make this work, give them free, handle to go out and explore things and come back with answers to a.

E

Lot of these things that we have I'm sure a lot of them are going to be aren't going to be easy.

E

And they're not going to be cheap, I don't think on the uh up front long term. I think we can close.

E

That gap, but we can't continue doing things the way we've been doing them. It's just not going to.

E

Work, you expect the same results if we do and it's just not going to be what we need to do. We need.

E

Some changes and we need to have the authority or somebody step in here in a couple years, if they do.

E

The more that's only recycled materials we still have trash to deal with and we need to extend.

E

Things as long as we possibly can in this landfill- I don't know if 99 years was the answer, but.

E

That's very short term in the whole scheme of things here, so uh I think we have to look bigger.

E

Than that, if I may I'm going to explain why the system benefit charge or tax is going to be a.

G

Complete and utter failure: it is because inflation, it does nothing to address the inflationary costs.

G

Of fuel and transporting the goods that were or the trash has been moved to our facility.

G

All right, so we make it 170 this year next year, we're going to be in the hole again and guess what.

G

I'll do it I'll come back and raise that tax again over and over again we'll keep raising that tax.

G

And if it is 170 a year per household that comes out to around 14 a month in feet and you're.

G

Telling me that there's no way the hauling service can directly charge the people who are using a.

G

Service under 14 a month increasing fee to dispose of their trash, which ultimately had come back to.

G

Us we are not doing anything to look at all the nuts and bolts of how the business model is set up.

G

And what extremely disappoints me is: I've emphasized this to staff over and over again.

G

That that's my objective as a businessman to look at the entire picture. What we're doing in waste.

G

Management, I commend liz uh miss eisenberg earlier who presented a much better, thorough, in-depth.

G

Analysis of fee for her department than you guys have done what you have is a very complex system.

G

And we have very tough decisions to make and what we expect of you is to come back with a full-blown.

G

View of all the nuts and bolts of what we're faced with the recycling coming in the expenses of it.

G

I'd love to see a breakdown of all that and a potential picture of what we could do long term.

G

To make the investment I'm willing to make an investment in your department, this is a prime.

G

Opportunity for you guys have a chance to present to us how to modernize this system, how to keep.

G

Your costs down, stop transporting stuff out, I'm telling you what transporting your trash out is.

G

Not the solution, it's never going to be unless the cost of fuel drops through to florida. It's.

G

Not going to it's going to exponentially keep going up, so we passed a systems benefit tax. This.

G

Year, it solves the inflationary cost for this year. Well guess: what next year, it's going to be worse.

G

Then we'll have to go back and raise that tax on our citizens. Again, it's not going to.

G

Solve the problem, the cost of the trash disposal needs to be directly linked to its expenditure.

G

The haulers should be charging the customers to feed and dump the trash in their facility.

G

And I don't think losing revenue was a big thing. The revenue we're gaining comes with a liability.

G

Like I said earlier, if we're charging 35 a ton for something, that's cost 140, why in the heck, do we.

G

Want to keep getting 35 a ton when we're just keep going deeper and deeper in the hole. We really need.

G

To have a true work session, where you guys take the time and put all this data together and allow.

G

Us to look it over and make a decision because I think, what's being predetermined by you all, is to.

G

Put this tax down our throat, because if you really had a motive to do anything else, you'd present.

G

This information to us and analyze and you're not you're, trying to box us into raising taxes on our.

G

Constituents it's their butts on the line, not yours. We represent the citizens, I'm telling you.

G

What I want is for you guys to lay out everything, that's involved with the waste management, so we.

G

Can make a decision? It's air decision to make not yours, so, commissioner boucher, um I yeah, I'm gonna.

A

Disagree: it's not our butt's on the line you know whatsoever. It is. It is our responsibility to make.

A

Decisions um to run this county and to lead this county, uh but I never felt like it was my butt on.

A

The line because somebody will be dissatisfied or satisfied. um You know again, you mentioned.

A

That the service or service benefit charge is not the solution because of inflation. I don't know.

A

uh The inflationary rates projections or anything like that, I just I don't know I have not heard.

A

From any economist that inflation is going to go through the roof, I don't know so. I can't go there.

A

um You said transferring is also not the solution. I think what we need to do and I'm not pointing at.

A

You, commissioner, boucher, but I think we collectively need to provide the team.

A

You know things for them to look at further in further detail. This is not an overnight solution.

A

And this is not you know. Just like ted said. This is not an overnight problem that uh has.

A

Been created, this has been going on so to look at the service benefit charges the value towards it.

A

The risk associated with it, you know um if that was to be put in place and then also some of the.

A

Other options, I think that's the guidance that we should be giving I'd like to know. You know again. I.

A

Don't want to go down the rabbit holes because you know we can give you a thousand different points.

A

To to look towards, I want you to focus on two or three actions to come back to us.

A

To then help us make the decision, especially as we're going into uh into the budget, um so.

A

I don't personally, I guess, unprofessionally, like the service benefit charge because of.

A

Its associated as a tax- and uh I just feel like this- is just the wrong time to even recognize that.

A

Something we should be doing, but the fact is, if there's a benefit to doing it, I need to understand.

A

The risk associated with it as well before I make a decision, so I would like to see what.

A

That cost would be um with the service benefit charge. It allows us to take it off the table as.

A

Opposed to putting it on the table, but we need the facts to be able to take it off the table.

A

But uh but I do believe you know and again I I'm I'm counting you a bit. Commissioner boucher. I do.

A

Believe that you three did come prepared uh to have this conversation, you got what you intended.

A

To do, and that was for all of us to cross talk about this- that's the intent of this.

A

uh So you know we're not gonna come up with solutions. We're gonna come up with.

A

You know the next steps and that's important and I'll stop there, but.

A

Commissioner weaver you got thoughts on this uh yeah I I agree. uh I'm not crazy about a tax uh on.

E

Anything but uh I I do think uh ted. I did disagree with you on one thing there I think we watch.

E

The pennies and we start to see the dollars come back to us, and I know it's not going to.

E

Be enough but at least it's a start and we start to look at every little aspect of the landfill.

E

And you guys, you know, I know you came into workshop to discuss things and that's what we're.

E

That's what we're trying to do- and uh I know some of us get passionate about.

E

uh Keeping things you know working for our constituents and our friends and neighbors.

E

Out here, but uh I think what we have to do is focus on any aspect. You can come back with.

E

And just say you know, I think we can do this and think outside the box of what we've been thinking.

E

In landfill for 20 something years and ted's right, we created this. Now we expect you to solve it.

E

um So I think what we have to do is get into or we didn't, but some other people helped do that.

E

But anyhow we need any suggestions. You have any area you want to delve into and let's throw it out.

E

There and see what we can do to make this happen and uh and jeff. I I do think you know you do have.

E

A solid waste out there in a few years, uh if you get that murph or something out running great.

E

But we need answers now for uh short term here and uh I I I just think our message to you has.

E

To be get creative, whatever you can come up with, throw it throw it out to us in a meeting and see.

E

Where we can go with it, and we may take a bit of time, we're not going to solve this whole thing at.

E

Once or it'd been done years ago, but I think we have to uh start bit of the time it's like eating.

E

An elephant one bite at a time or get there, so I think that's the charge we have to send to you.

E

A

uh Commissioner frazier comments well, I I would like to hear more about system in.

H

Charge I'll leave it at that yep yeah, I'd like to at least see it. I I'm not.

I

You know a taxes, a tax and that's how I feel yeah same, but but if it would eliminate the the.

I

Over the the scale charge, or it would do something for those folks in the rural areas that pay.

I

The the haulers independently, if it would do something for that fee, then.

I

I may be up for that. I mean I, you know I. I think that would be good, but I keep going back to.

I

We've we've got to reach out and tell the authority what the challenges are. They are.

I

They should know this, so we we need their help so that I'll leave it at that. I think we need to.

I

Reach out to them, because this bill that I, that I called you about um jeff or mike and eric or cliff.

I

All of you, I had all of you involved that scares the living daylights out of me.

I

I we've got to get in front of this so as as commissioner weaver says, put it all out, there.

I

If it, if it's, if it sounds ridiculous, let us see, let us see it um whatever. I, because we're just as.

I

You said ed, we've talked about this now for almost two hours and what have we accomplished.

I

Well, I'm not sure the dialogue has been good, but I think what we accomplished was.

I

We've got to get every possible avenue of where we need to go with this.

I

On paper and look at it again and brainstorm yeah, commissioner boucher.

G

Just what I agree, I just I think you know knowledge is power and the more knowledge your.

G

Cf gives us the better decisions we can make yeah. I'm sorry if I'm hard, but this is a very important.

G

Issue, you know this affects our environment and I'm willing to make a long-term investment for.

G

You guys to help solve this problem, but in order for us to make a really good intelligent decision.

G

I want to see everything I want to see what you see. I don't like making decisions while.

G

My subordinates are holding more information to me. I just feel a little bit insulted in a way and I'm.

G

Sorry, if I offend you but the less information you're giving me when I keep soliciting for.

G

Information, the more ticked off I'm getting and I hope it starts to reverse so we make better.

G

Decisions: okay, um I think you got your marching orders as we would say: jeff any final words.

C

Can I just request one thing so I think I've heard the conversation.

C

But I just want to be sure, because this is a direction for us. I think what I heard.

C

From the group is that we do not want to landfill, we want to continue to transfer.

C

All of our waste pretty much all of it, I mean I mean I guess the direction right now is 10.

C

000 tons a year, we are bearing. That's that's the marching orders, that's the direction. We want to go.

I

Right now I guess it is yes, but then that leads to my question: what happens when pennsylvania.

I

Decides: okay, we're done because baltimore county is going to transfer montgomery county is going to.

I

Transfer howard county is going to transfer et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and that time.

I

Could be closely coming to us too? I don't know where all this trash is going in pennsylvania.

I

uh I don't want to say that I don't care, but I you know maybe I do but there's going to probably.

I

Be a point where they say you know what we're done. We can't take any and then what do we do.

I

Have we been given an idea about the the you know how how many more years is pa.

I

Gonna accept all this trash. Do we know.

D

The only known commissioner is is the facility that or the facilities that the current contract.

D

Would serve and they have somewhere between five and ten and they're working on an expansion.

D

Facilities uh outside of york, pennsylvania, but it's uh a lot of my career, was in.

D

Pennsylvania, uh the state itself is one of the largest importers of material of waste.

D

But like a lot of other states, they are having the same conversations that annapolis is having.

D

To to varying degrees, they don't want to be the dumping ground for the rest of the east coast.

D

Neither does virginia, which is another large importer.

D

Right outside of that you're, looking at ohio, indiana, michigan illinois, those are all by rail.

D

You know we're not. No one is going to haul long-haul waste out there. That's a rail operation.

D

So every yeah, every time you go another, you know 500 miles or 300 miles the transportation.

D

Mode changes that virginia has barge receiving facilities on the james river, so waste is still a.

D

Barge down there, it didn't end years ago, when you know a barge went across the atlantic. Looking for.

D

A home, so those are the methods and each of those is more and more expensive than the one. Before.

D

Right one of the things I just want to mention and then I'll get off my you know.

D

Let's go to somebody else: people keep mentioning about landfill airspace and how much life we have.

D

um At 10 000 tons a year, which is what our current budget is for: fiscal uh 22. The proposed budget.

D

uh Cell 3, somewhere around 27., now on one hand, oh good. That's a lot of lot of life. We have a lot.

D

Of time that's only a 10 000 tons, so you know, if you put, if you put all of our weights into three.

D

Into cell three, it's less than three years, so just keep that perspective in mind. um I.

D

Can give you numbers for the whole site? They really are meaningless at this point in time.

D

But it is over a hundred years through the whole facility at ten thousand. But as you go to 95 or.

D

100 000 it's 13 14 15 years, so that decision you know wall is right there in front of us.

J

And that'll be here just for discussion purposes right, mr angle, do we have any civil.

G

Engineering done on the expansion of the landfill and opening up other cells.

G

What uh engineering designing investment have we made to this point to forecast out into the.

G

Future, what potential capacity and resources we have at our existing facility out there on 140.

G

What's our future look like if you had the money to invest, what could we potentially do.

D

That's a looted question uh if you're.

D

You're talking about just what's permitted today correct you're, not talking about another property.

G

Correct what we have in possession or property? What? What are we faced with the maximum.

D

10 000 tons maximum lifetimes 134 years.

D

I wasn't worrying about it, but at all of the waste again, it's it's 14 years.

D

Cell 4 and cell 5, which goes over top of everything we already have the permits there.

D

The outline of the cell is there the only thing we do is we have to do a an engineering design.

D

To the state they approve it, then we bid it out and construct it. That's a little oversimplified.

D

But that's basically what it is so for life at our facility. What's already permitted.

D

We're, I don't know, 75 of the way to be able to be able to put a shovel in the ground. We want to go.

D

Back for reapproval of anything at the state level, once you go off of our property hypothetically.

D

There are some table top studies that have been done on neighboring properties.

D

That are really nowhere near what the state would require to get something permitted.

D

So now you're talking about a completely greenfield site.

D

I'm not even gonna. I can't even estimate what kind of.

D

Lifespan would be on any adjacent property to the facility. I don't know there's enough.

D

Information out there to be able to look at it. I appreciate that, but I'd really love to see.

G

If we have any engineering layout a future of what we could do for existing property, where.

G

Where a cell would go how we could lay out the efficiency on dropping off waste and recycling.

G

Like I said, I'd be more than happy to make a substantial investment if we pulled off.

G

Into waste management, you know I'd like to get the flow moving properly in and out or a utility.

G

Entrance separate from the the citizen entrance, I'm I'm sure, there's things that we could do to.

G

Try to become more efficient and increase our capacity, but right now I don't know I'd.

G

Love to see an overview and get a feel for what we're potentially faced with long-term. And what.

D

You're talking about is a is a more in-depth site master plan and that really hasn't been.

D

Looked at that, I can find in looking over 30 years worth of worth of documents, and you know.

D

And everything else we do have the leachate line plan that discharge to somewhere else.

D

That plan's been on paper since the 80s, and I, if I'm not mistaken or can correct me if I'm wrong.

D

You know he revisited that here, maybe four years ago or so.

D

In that range and the county made the decision, no we're not going to pursue it. So there is a cost.

D

Probably a an engineering cost estimate to put that in we could dust it off and update it, but.

D

Whether or not we can physically do it and we can, we can certainly take the time to do that.

D

But whether we can physically do it or not, we're allowed to do it. You know that that's a different.

D

Story I appreciate that I just want a long-term look at all of our options. I just can't stand like.

G

Fixing it for one year, because I believe the system's benefit tax will fix it for one year.

G

And then inflation will kick in it'll, be in the hole again I'd love to develop an overall us.

G

Reaching strategy, or not only where we're at this year, but where we could be in 20 years. You know.

G

We don't but waste management isn't all go away and we're all keep facing this problem. I'd love.

G

To develop some sort of long-term strategy and part of it, I think it reduces the amount we're.

G

Transporting because transportation is a lot of cost, if we in some way keep that trash in our.

G

Landfill and maintain a lychee with the piping system, we could reduce our cost. I'd love to be.

G

Able to analyze all the numbers long term, I'm I'm the kind of person that would be willing to.

G

Spend more money now, if I can calculate out over the long term what my savings are, I'm the kind.

G

Of person who paid my mortgage off early because I know the amount of interest I see this exponential.

G

And I do the same thing of equipment with my business when I buy it, I want to apply to the.

G

Same philosophy as to how we run the county, I want to make the investment in waste management.

G

I want to invest in you guys if you can show us long term the benefit and the savings of it.

D

I wish I could take you in a way back machine back to when the transfer station decision was made and.

D

We could have a lot of fun trying to change that. Commissioners. Can I can I say something I I want.

C

To just let you know that we are certainly not pushing any sort of agenda on you. We're not trying.

C

To um we we're trying to give you what we feel are the best options we have looked at the leachate.

C

We've looked at at creating our own manufacturer, recovering our materials recovering facility, we'd.

C

Look at what happens when you change the tip fees and what we think the waste is going to go away.

C

um For for every tongue you put- and this is I'm not pushing this either, but I'm just saying.

C

For every tongue you put in the ground at the landfill you make 65, so the landfill business.

C

Is exactly that, it is a landfill and the best way to make money at a landfill.

C

Is to put it in the ground now there are plenty of caveats to that. There are things that you know.

C

The close closure, the closure you have to save for that, but you will make money landfilling through.

C

Throughout this process, to put away for that- and you won't be- you won't be adding from the.

C

General fund to make that operation happen now, like cliff, said, you're talking 14 years, you've.

C

Had to sign a new landfill, so that's that's the opposite challenge of that, but it is an option.

C

We're not pushing the sbc and we're saying there are options uh we, you know we need some guidance.

C

On where you think we should focus our efforts. Mr burdine, I appreciate the fact you guys are.

G

All doing that information, but here's the failure, the failure is it's not being brought in front of.

G

Us in front of the public, we don't have all the information. All these reports and analyzations.

G

And study we need to have that in session and a work session in front of the people.

G

Talking all that out, getting the knowledge and sharing the knowledge that you have.

G

Not only with us, but sharing it with the public so that all that can come together, of course, make the.

G

Decision, I just feel like that, when you guys do audit research and don't bring it in front of us.

G

And you decide well, you know it looks like it won't work. Maybe it won't, but it's not your place.

G

To determine it's not going to work, it's our place to determine the thought, don't work, that's your.

G

Obligation responsibilities our subordinates to bring that information in front of us before.

G

The public so that when we ultimately make these tough decisions, we have the basis and.

G

Justification for it and gain an understanding of our constituents as to why we made those decisions.

A

I think um you've been giving guidance on looking at a few different options.

A

uh Also providing more information, as commissioner wayne said put in front, and commissioner boucher.

A

Getting in front of us um to either accept or reject, or you know, figure out- hey, let's.

A

Get a little bit more uh information on whatever is being thrown in front of us dealing with.

A

The general fund, if it is um what we want to continue uh to use to subsidize uh what is.

A

The if we're, if we are moving towards eliminating the general fund in subsidizing, uh the enterprise.

A

Fund, what would it take and what is the risk associated with it? um The service benefit charge.

A

Along with the municipalities and and the activities, the service benefit charge and again.

A

The impact that that would have, um and then also the municipalities, uh what what is the.

A

Projects that they're doing or not projects the funds that they are using currently.

A

How would they be then affected by the decisions we make and what what I just shared, I think.

A

Overall, that captured everything I mean again, it's it's a two problem.

A

Set one is the landfill physical problems and the other is the funds.

A

And they absolutely do both come together if we can make money varying trash, as you say,.

I

What about looking at surrounding property, creating another four five, six, seven cells.

I

uh Would it would it be better to invest in property now for the future use for those sales.

I

And the money that we're gonna make, instead of what we're spending to get it out of here.

I

Maybe that's the way to go. I I don't know, I know, there's there's a lot of properties around there.

I

And whether or not it's for sale or not, I don't know I'm not getting to that today.

I

And maybe that's not the area, and I don't know even if it's, if that's not the area, I don't know.

I

Where the area would be because, quite frankly, with with the ag preservation and everything else and.

I

And the designated growth areas that we have in the county, I'm not sure there is any other.

I

Property in the county uh to to have you know, landfill space really and that's what the problem.

I

Is being identified as in in montgomery, and you know, those counties are running out of land and.

A

There's also value in capped landfills, whether they're golf courses or stadiums, giant stadium,.

A

Is built on landfill, jimmy hoffa is underneath it somewhere at least parts of them yeah. So maybe.

I

That's another alternative, looking at surrounding property to see, if maybe the investment now and.

I

Buying it would be the best way in the future, and then we just start burying as long as they.

G

Are buried commissioners in the landfill, not that you're aware of um okay, any final thoughts we went.

A

Through a lot and yeah, some of it was circular, but I think we laid out a lot of information.

A

Over the last hour, 20 minutes give or take okay being here and none do. I have a motion.

A

To adjourn so moved, you have a second second. Thank you. Okay, all in favor, we have a majority.

H