Carroll County, MD Board of County Commissioners Open Sessions, 15 Dec 2020

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From YouTube: Board of Carroll County Commissioners Comp Rezoning Work Session December 15, 2020

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https://www.carrollcountymd.gov/government/commissioners/board-of-carroll-county-commissioners-weekly-agenda/

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Hey good afternoon, everybody december, the 15th today is another work session.

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For our comprehensive rezoning, commercial, industrial and employment campus districts.

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We're making our way through all the requests and we're going to take another batch of them today.

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We won't be on the air until thursday, so we just want to remind folks that are tuning in.

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And wherever you're tuning in from to uh be mindful of the upcoming uh forecast.

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We're in the 10 to 14 inch area right now, and uh that could get very interesting because there's.

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Sleet and freezing rain that's going to come in uh in the middle of this stuff and that never.

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Helps so that could get uh could get a little bit crazy so and we'll see what thursday brings.

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I know chris has been working on it and since we're all virtual now, we.

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Probably will be able to do that unless, unless you can't see out your windows with 10 or 14 inches.

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Of snow, I don't know you know a little guy. Like me, you know 10 to 14 inches of snow, just saying.

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Anyway, I can do a measurement of the snow live if you'd like.

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I'm gonna do some testing tonight, but I think we're good to go. Okay, good. So we'll probably.

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Be business as usual, even though we may be in a different place here with the office building.

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Or whatever, for the safety of all of our our employees and citizens, so we'll cross that bridge.

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When we get to it with that, I'm going to turn it over to linda eisenberg to lead the charge. This.

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Afternoon and we'll jump in with both feet as we move through some of these requests so linda.

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uh Good afternoon good afternoon, commissioners, as commissioner wan said today, is our second work.

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Session with regard to the commercial industrial, employment campus by request and as promised.

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The properties today may offer a little more discussion. Many of the properties did have some.

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Comments to them from the surrounding community so with that I'm going to go ahead and start with the.

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First property for introduction and discussion, so if the control room can please share my screen.

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All right can everyone see my screen. This is what I sent you um yesterday, yep all right, very good. So.

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Again, I broke it down based on properties of similar characteristics. As far as staff planning.

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Commission and a final recommendation and the types and number of comments they had for the.

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Request so the next three series of properties have a favorable staff and planning commission.

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Recommendation and are consistent with the plan for the area. There are some community comments.

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And opposition, both written and oral that were given at the listening session and public hearing.

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All written comments were provided to you all prior to today's meeting um in the previous.

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Weeks, so the three first properties are zero: zero, two four, which is dana kuiper 0001, which is a bar.

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And that's also known as the legacy school in 0025, which is the delaney properties that are both in.

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Eldersburg, so the first one, the zero zero two four request is from add to c2 commercial, medium.

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Again, here's an aerial map and this property is basically at the intersection of 97.

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And 32, just outside the westminster growth area to the north again is the.

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Ymca and then we have robert elementary and then the community college.

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High school, as you move north up, um 32, I'm sorry, yes, 32 and then to old washington, road.

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So again, the future land use designation and the plan was agriculture. However,.

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um The staff and planning commission did find this property request consistent.

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With the master plan, um because it is immediately outside the city of westminster, both area boundary.

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It is located at the intersection of two urban roadways and is immediately outside existing water.

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And sewer, which is directly to the north, the uses on the surrounding properties are institutional.

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And use even though they have a conservation zone and the future land use is residential.

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They are in a type of institutional use. The property is 12 acres in size.

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And is not about land for ad purposes and again this request is consistent with the.

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Economic development goals and implementation strategies of the 2014 carroll county master plan.

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So is there any other information that you would require? This is all that I have for this.

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Particular property linda just a question: the um future land use you have to its.

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West, uh suburban residential, as opposed to agricultural and conservation, is that.

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Westminster that is doing that so to the north. The suburban residential is the westminster.

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um Growth area boundaries, future land use and that came out of the westminster plan.

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Has that been approved at this point by westminster, that was back in 2007 and then.

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The county version was in 2009 and they're, both consistent with one another. Okay, so.

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To be clear that that is, and should be, considered, suburban residential, correct.

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To the north, yes to the north, okay.

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And linda this does have sewer to it now so in water.

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No, it does not sewer and water is found within the growth area boundary um the city of westminster,.

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Does not extend uh water and sewer service out of the growth area boundary and they don't extend.

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It outside of their actual corporate limits without a what they call a good cause waiver.

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But it's very close correct so just to the north of the car on ymca property, water.

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And sewer come down on old washington road, but c2 can develop without water and sewer.

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So uh from what I remember, uh there was only really one uh negative comment and I believe that.

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Was from across 32 is that correct? That was from a neighbor across 32 um that thought they would be.

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Impacted by the commercial zoning of this property- okay, but you know what that said- I mean this: does.

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Tie well within the properties to the what you're saying in the north or north west, correct.

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um I believe so you know that corridor all the way up old washington road is very developed on either.

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Institutional and then in medical office complexes and some retail and other offices all the way up.

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Into the city proper- and another case you saw was 844 um professional center, which was at the.

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Last meeting and that request was to go to steve too, but still have that suburban residential.

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Designation again, because we have, we and the city of westminster have not updated their plan in a.

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Very long time and it's due okay and for the group um during the planning commission, some.

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Discussion really had to do with the aesthetics of developing that corner. You know, because it.

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Going northbound on 97 excuse me: yeah 97, it's um still pretty open area and it's not commercialized.

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Until you get way to the north towards 140., but uh the planning commission I mean that was the.

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Only real comments that I remember uh and I think it was a unanimous uh favorable decision for them.

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Yeah and my my concerns would also be the intersection and they have completely redone that.

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Intersection there to make it uh much safer and, as a matter of fact, the statistics will show that the.

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Number of incidents that have occurred at that intersection since they've redone it have been.

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um There have been a couple, but it's been, it's been um certainly decreased.

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By a large margin, so it's it's pretty wide open there, and I think that leads to this too. um You.

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Know I do understand that we got something from from one neighbor. I get that, but because I'm I.

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Want to I- and I do appreciate the comments from from that those folks, uh but it leaves itself.

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Very well because stick you brought it up water and sewer right there, um and I think this just.

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This is one that I don't really have a huge issue with I mean I think it's designed to do this.

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This this these this 12 acres. So that's my only that's my two cents, your district dennis.

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Is it because according okay, is it that's not what it says, but.

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I think it's the ideal location, it's right on the corner. Two major roads going north is is.

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The y uh there is the college up from near it's just developed. Basically, all the way up. I think.

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It's ideal: it's right on the edge of water and sewer and if they're going to bring it in there.

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They have to petition the city to get water and sewer in here and what the developer would have.

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To pay for that extension and so forth, so that's up to them if they want to do it, but I do think.

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It's the place to go so I'll make the motion that we approve this. uh This rezoning. Second.

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Okay and and to remind everyone, these are placeholder decisions, so we're you know.

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We're not um we're not set in stone, yet we're merely going case by case and making.

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Temporary or I don't know what word we used last week,.

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I can't remember, but provisional provisional provisional nicely done.

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We use provisional yeah, so provisional request, so just want to make sure that folks understand that.

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As well as we continue to go through this process, all right, any other discussion on this property.

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All those in favor, okay, moving on that's unanimous uh since you brought it up.

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It was discussed uh this morning as well in planning commission where we can find the.

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Decisions that are being made from the directorate, the planning commission and our provisional.

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Decisions and linda has a great spreadsheet. That's on located on her uh on the county.

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Web page uh we'll make a hot link to it from the front, um so people can see the the methodology.

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And as we're walking through this, um but it's a good point again that transparency piece.

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To make sure people can see every step of the way, what we're doing in the decision-making process.

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Yeah and that's the page thanks, linda absolutely we'll update this after today's meeting and also.

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Make an improvement too by actually putting the name of the property on the spreadsheet.

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So I will be reposting this in addition to the provisional votes that we're taking today.

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So actually, the next two requests I'm going to actually go through both together.

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Because they really do go hand in hand- and it's almost one without the other- would not quite make.

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Sense so the next request was ec14202001. This is avar partnership and the request is add to.

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Employment campus- and this is the legacy school property so again coming off of please mill.

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To the east off of terrapin drive, this parcel 504 is currently the legacy school property.

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And you can see it in context of the greater employment campus area of the delaney properties.

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So this request is consistent with the freedom plan and the carroll county master plan.

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The future land use, as expressed in the plan, its location in the freedom designated growth area.

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Its proximity to maryland, 26 and availability for future water and sewer.

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The water and sewer master plan have been updated to put these in the priority categories.

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The current use as a private school is consistent with the zoning designation.

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As a primary principal use, there are very few environmental constraints on the legacy school.

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Property there's no violations and the bca did give a recent variance request, but it.

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Has no bearing on the future representing of the property, so both staff and planning commission.

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Gave this piece a favorable recommendation so, as I said, this goes hand in hand with ec142020025.

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Which is a property owned by the board of county commissioners, formerly known as the delaney.

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Property, this piece at one point in time was um scheduled to be a potential future middle school.

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Site, however, working with the board of education, there were no future needs when the designation.

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Was placed for additional middle school um in this area and the request is added to employment campus.

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So again, at the end of terrapin drive adjacent to a legacy. School are three parcels: partial 16.

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484 and 490 that are all owned by the board of carroll county commissioners.

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And have an employment campus designation, uh the parcel 490 is directly across from century.

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High school and linton springs elementary and dennis house the water tower for that area.

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The hatched line is the priority funding area designation. Should you make a decision.

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To incorporate the legacy school and the delaney properties, because they are on water and sewer.

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And commercially based, we would petition the maryland department of planning to also.

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Include these properties because they do meet the priority funding area requirements to be within.

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The county designated priority funding area so again in context of the larger lane use scenario.

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You can see how all three of these before these I'm sorry tie into one another. The.

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Outline properties um were offered to come in with a change in returning to employment, canvas.

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They did not make application at this time, but they their eligibility, would still be at.

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Any time in the future, they would want to work with us to comprehensively resound their parcels.

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We would work with them to do so. So that way you would have a contiguous block of employment campus.

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So again, this request is consistent with the freedom plan and the master plan.

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um The future lanes, as expressed in the plan and it's situated within the dga and adjacency.

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To the priority funding area and partially being in the pfa, it's proximity to water and sewer as.

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Well and again, we just amended the water and sewer master plan to include these properties.

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um There are some environmental constraints on the property mainly being forced to cover.

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um We work with economic development, they've walked the site and do feel that it can be.

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Developed an employment campus because it's so large, um so you know again a property.

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This large it's been untouched. You do expect some undeveloped forest covered, but economic.

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Development is fully aware of that and still feels it's a viable candidate for employment campus.

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So again, staff and planning commission gave these series of properties, and this request.

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A favorable recommendation, so I'm going to go back to the legacy school property to start with.

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You know to me the the legacy school is a no-brainer. It's an opportunity for the legacy.

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School, which is uh you know, busting at the seams right now uh as far as their occupancy, they do a.

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Great job for our community teaching, dyslexic, kids um and getting them mainstreamed into the.

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School system um they looked at expansion of other locations and realized that um it was.

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Cost prohibitive uh and they rather keep it all in one in one place. So to me uh they do have the.

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You know the business plan to expand the school. um It's three and a half acres.

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Just to the uh east of where the main school is so, my recommendation is a favorable.

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Decision at this point, if that's a motion, I would second that, because I believe it I mean, if you're.

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Looking at these properties and linda put them kind of put them all together, which makes sense.

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I I think they all should be going in the same direction and since we're starting with this one.

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I think this is the first. You know first one, so I'm in favor of moving forward with this.

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Okay, ed, are you talking just the the legacy school one, the zero zero, so so yeah? I appreciate steve.

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In in total you're talking about 120 acres, you got the iba property was about 117.

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Just east, but this parcel is about three and a half acres to legacy school.

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So I think we do need, um because it's two separate requests that we make decisions on each one. uh You.

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Know as they stand by themselves, I appreciate linda putting it together because you can see.

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You know in its entirety, but we need to deal with this one first and then make a decision.

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On the second one- and you know I can get into the second one in a second okay- got.

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It so this is zero, zero, zero one- and this is the legacy school, and this is the three and a half.

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Acres or three point: eight, whatever it is: okay, all right any other discussion on this one in favor.

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um Commissioner, weaver opposed.

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Yep you're in favor, commissioner weaver, okay,.

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All right, that's unanimous, all right now, uh ed! um You want to do the.

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Right, the second one is 117 acres, um just across the street from century high school and.

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Lynn springs, jack has been working, our economic development team has been working. It.

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With the ida, it's a prime location for an employment campus.

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The biggest, I think, challenge that we saw from residents and linda, if you you know, make sure I'm.

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Correct it had to do with um some horse trails to the north, and uh was that was that this property.

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I don't, I don't believe it was this property, it's another property. We were talking about.

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In planning commission um off of linton um and cherry hill, okay, so in the vicinity, but.

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Not on these properties, okay, so wasn't this crap.

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Especially from some of the residents from both properties along terrapin and dickson,.

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Right but but it didn't have to do with the horses on this one, okay, yeah. So again, I think.

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um You know it's prime location, uh it needs a lot of. Work needs degrading to be done. uh We have been.

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Putting I believe dirt there already, because it is government property. um So you know it's.

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It'll fit really well in to opportunities uh from the school, um and we don't have much.

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Employment campus space industrial space in the south part of the county anyway, so you know my.

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Recommendation we move forward and get the ida to develop this property I'll second implement.

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Okay got a motion in a second on this piece too,.

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uh It because it's in the general or the close proximity of century.

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And uh would you say, linton springs ed, I believe, is that what you said: yep um infrastructure-wise.

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There um any concerns, or I would assume that that area is probably in pretty good shape there.

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Yeah, I believe it's well within the water service area, correct melinda, we expanded the consumer.

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Service area, so again that would be up to the developer, us being the county to extend the actual.

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Sewer lines and water lines, but there is water and sewer capacity for the employment campus. That.

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Was something when we did the freedom plan? We would put forward a water and steer master plan.

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And we did an mde approved that water and sewer priority areas and the 2019 training hall update.

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Okay, just one question: uh what would it cost the county.

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To get storm water extended to that area, I'm just looking down the road here. We have any idea.

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Whoever decides to develop this piece of property would pay for the extension of the water and store.

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Not the county itself, we don't pay for that. We have, they have the water store in the area.

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You want to run the pipes or whatever that's up to whoever develops that doesn't cost us anything.

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Yes, we still have to maintain the pumping stations and the other parts of this, and I'm just wondering.

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You know the whole impact of it because we're at capacity and freedom anyway correct.

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uh We're just about on pumping stations, so so there is capacity. I don't have a cost.

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Figure what it would cost to extend water, and so, if you don't know what type of development.

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Would be and what the requirements would be for the infrastructure? How much would need line work.

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Would need to be run so, as commissioner frazier said, whoever ends up ultimately developing this.

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Property would bring that infrastructure to the site for some of it. I'm just worried.

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About this and our cost to us, and in the long run I'm in favor of doing this here, this is a.

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Spot the school system said: no, they don't want a middle school in there. uh They've said that, for a.

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Couple of years now, they're not going to develop anything. It's a perfect employment campus. So.

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I'm not opposed to. I was just wondering what it's going to cost us down the road to do it.

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Yeah, I would think that's that's probably going to be a tough, tough figure to get because.

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You know keeping in mind what dennis brought up, whoever would would put whatever in there would.

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Be responsible for that and then to say what it would be due to due to uh the capacity on our.

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Pumping stations and lines, or what have you I mean one way to look at it all the lines would be new.

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So there wouldn't be an issue there, but um sure there would probably be something down the road.

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With a pumping station but yeah and that's a that's a ways out, I'm not sure how you'd even get.

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Some sort of a number there- and I know you know they're, not free, we put you know, I know.

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The contractor has to put it in, but there are the offset costs to the county and down the road.

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It continues to cost us, so that's where I'm I'm worried about things uh 10 years from now, not.

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Presently, right, no, I you know dick, I think, that's fair and it actually ties into uh actually a very.

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Good op-ed done by joanne grundy this morning in the paper um you know she has definitely gone.

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Through challenges in the freedom area, but what she was describing is for us to ensure that we're.

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Working through the considerations of existing priority and long-term sewer, um you know in the.

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Freedom area and uh to be very clear, you know if it's existing, if it's priority or if it's long.

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Term and what does that mean to the developer, uh both residential and commercial? um It's it's.

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It is difficult, but we we've got to ensure we do make very deliberate. You know uh decisions when.

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We consider the priority in long-term uh sewer. So um if you haven't read the article uh or the op-ed.

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Recommend you do and linda definitely want you to take a hard look at that op-ed and let's have.

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A conversation offline more about it, okay uh deal with the freedom area, so all right, so I've got.

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Motion and second, to move forward with this one, any other discussion.

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All those in favor.

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All right, those two were unanimous, so we moved to number four. I guess.

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uh So c2092020014 this is mad properties. The request is ag 2c2, this property.

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Is located just outside the linfield rural villages so to the west of that.

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It is two parcels that make up this request and they're situated off of old liberty, road.

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So here's a picture of what the two parcels look like.

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On their tube structures that are in disrepair and definitely in need of some improvements, the.

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Applicants thought that having the commercial designation on these 1.69 acres would help.

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Them be able to improve these long-standing buildings and former businesses into this area.

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As you can see, here's the winfield rural villages, which is in the um hatched pattern of yellow for.

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A residential world village and pink for village, commercial, industrial, but this is in the ag area.

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So, staff, the reason this was separated from the other properties is because stock gave.

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This an unfavorable recommendation: the planning commission gave it a favorable recommendation.

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um The reason for staff giving an unfavorable recommendation was because it did not have.

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A commercial future land use designation, as articulated in the plan and was not consistent.

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With the plan, however, planning commission reviewed the property and did establish consistency.

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And made a motion within their favorable recommendation that it is consistent with.

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The 2014, as amended 2019 carroll county master plan.

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I went out and met with the owner of this property out there, and I was very much impressed with their.

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Initiative they want to try to upgrade the property. This piece of property has been.

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Used for commercial use before 1965. like linda mentioned earlier, the buildings are in disarray,.

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I think these property owners in this situation are faced with the difficulty getting a financing.

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And they have a heartfelt desire to upgrade their properties, get the financing.

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And bring it all into the modern standard. So I very much would like this to move forward.

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And get to redesignation. So I'm on motion that we move forward and make this c2 provisionally.

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You know when we um had the discussions about the definitions of commercial industrial.

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One of the conversations I remember having was.

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Dealing with um commercial, small commercial c1 that not all c1 was alike in different areas,.

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So c1 and you know eldersburg would be very different than c1 in a rural area and needs.

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And this may be somewhat of the same situation where a commercial, although it's surrounded by.

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Complete ag a commercial need is there, whereas it wouldn't be as needed in a large developed ag.

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Area in you know another part of the county um is that kind of where we're at with this I mean what.

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What what is the commercial being used there now? What what's? What are the stores.

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They have a catering business in the one building and a tow company and the other and the property's.

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Sitting on the hillside, there's, I don't think there's any real way for anyone to use it for ag.

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This property, even if it got vacated, I don't think anyone would use it for agricultural use.

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So I think it's it's a very good spot for a commercial place to be.

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In conformity plus out there in winfield there's no uh municipal water and sewer.

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They could never get hooked up, it's just not there they're all beyond well and septic, no matter what.

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I really would like to see some investment improvement, especially in that that winfield.

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Area- and I think this would be a prime opportunity to do that- could the type of type of uh commercial.

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Use there now could it fit underneath c1? Yes, that's all just looking into you run my mind so.

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uh The catering um does fit into as a primary um principal use, um mary uh I'm having a hard.

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Time finding the towing business. um Do you see that in here? If you remember how we listed it.

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Towing service would be prohibited.

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But actually towing service is prohibited in the c1 and c2.

F

I'd say I I I'm not in favor of this: it's right in the middle of all the agricultural land.

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They can, if I'm wrongly, to let me know, but I'm pretty sure they can continue on what.

F

They're doing because of non-conforming use as long as they're they keep using it if they.

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Want to make improvements to the building they're allowed to do that, I'm not in favor.

F

Of changing this to c1 or c2 because of where it's located and what's around it so the time.

C

If they want to make improvements, they need the zoning, I guess for a bank loan or anything.

E

To do that at the present time correct, uh I'm sure that my bank is not going to let them have.

E

uh Funds on a non-can, not uh traditional use uh at that point, would think that'd be up to.

F

The bank, though I mean they, put buildings on this land already and it's not conforming use.

F

I don't see I mean it's up to the bank, it's not to what they want to do it. Would it be easier, I guess.

F

It would be, but I don't think that's a reason to change the zoning. These buildings are pre-1965.

D

But if we, if we look at a consistency as shared before definitions, this does.

D

You know lend itself to at least allow a c1 designation. um I don't know if we.

D

Did that if that would hurt the towing service? That's there now, if we change that designation.

D

Or would they still be allowed to uh just operate as they've been operating.

H

I think they would still be considered a non-conforming use either way. But, as I.

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Said before, even if you gave them c2 they'd be a non-conforming use because towing isn't allowed in.

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Either of those districts, the other thing about c1 is retail and service is limited to 10 000.

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Square feet or less so, I'm not sure exactly what's going on in all those.

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In those several buildings, but anything that would be considered, general retail or general service.

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Would be limited to 10 000 square feet, so we don't know how big these buildings are right now.

H

No, I don't think we do um there's several different buildings, linda.

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I don't think we have actual dimensions of these buildings.

E

We could potentially put these guys out of business by changing the zoning.

F

Well, with soviet non-conforming use, it's not conforming that if it changes to c1.

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Or c2 it's still not conforming, so that kind of throws out the argument about.

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Getting a bank loan would be easier to fix these buildings up because it makes no difference.

E

Yes, it does. Banks will not learn to uh non-conforming use uh very, very easily.

F

That's right, it's not conforming, regardless of what it is. It's so non-conforming. That's exactly.

F

My point, commissioner weaver, thank you correct, at least with the towing, but not necessarily.

D

With the catering and to upgrade the catering, if it's conforming within c1, then that would fit.

G

I'd like to state that the property owner is the catering business.

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They have an overwhelming majority of the lot filled with their stuff. I think there's just a.

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Building down on the front that someone has a tow truck at and I think that just might be some sort.

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Of sublet, it's not a primary and I don't think that's the primary concern of this owner. Their.

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Concern is their catering business, that's their bread and butter. I think if the towing business.

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Was non-conforming it had to go? I don't think they'd have a problem with that. They might have.

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Actually be able to consume all that lot if they can invest and expand in their primary business to.

G

Catering business so once again, I'm going to motion provisionally for us to go c2 on this.

C

So the one property, um the 1835- is 6400 square feet of above ground area; okay, so that fits.

D

Within the c1 allowances, the non-conforming use of the telling is that's kind of regardless.

D

um If we put it into c1, we allow them to continue and conform, their business, banking and whatever.

D

Else is necessary and it's in line with the definitions that we created when it came to.

D

You know c1 uh early on, I mean dennis what do you think.

F

I'd like to see one better than c2, to be frank, although I'm still not 100 sold on it.

F

But if we want to make that change, wouldn't we go back to the property owner first and ask if.

F

They wanted to make the change from b2 to c1. Maybe they had a different idea in mind and and.

F

Commissioner, boucher to your point: well, we change the zoning. If we change the zoning.

F

It's not just for this property owner. It's for whoever has the property in 50 years down the road.

F

And what they can do with it, so it's good that we know the intention of property owner, but it really.

F

Doesn't make any difference because we're changing changing the zoning for now and in the future.

D

Although he's been there for 70 years for 65 years, I mean that's so it's it's been a long time.

D

um Yeah eric, I think, uh if we change this and we kept and and.

D

In line with what you want moving into commercial but moving it to c1 as a provisional decision.

D

Going back finding what other uses this gentleman may be interested in, it may just be expansion or.

D

Further development and that'll fit nicely within the c1. uh You know zoning and it.

D

Would be consistent with the decision we've been making? That's that's. The key here is to maintain.

D

As much consistency as we can, I have not heard anything any of my constituents. Miss eisenberg.

G

What do we have on record as far as neighboring complaints? Nothing? We have no negative comments.

C

On this property, and just to let you know, the other um built structure is sixteen hundred square.

C

Feet so well within the ten thousand square foot maximum, um and we are more than happy to reach.

C

Out to their council, which is represented by clark, shaffer and asked him if the c1.

C

um Would also meet their intent and come back too so we can do a provisional and then we.

C

Can reach out and then, when we readjust re-address it again, I can let you know.

E

Yeah, I'm in favor of uh let's talk to them before we make the change.

E

And make sure they're aware of it and uh comfortable with where we want to go.

E

I we can just put it on hold for a period of time until we at least talk to the landowner.

G

A

All right, so I you I get a sense. You want to put this one on hold and not go with either c one or.

A

Two until you've checked with the property owners, is that right, we'll put and put this.

A

In the next mix I can live with that. Okay, I'd be more comfortable with that, because if we.

F

Go through the motion of making a c1- and maybe c1, is not what they wanted anyway, because they.

F

Had different plans, then we wasted our time. Let's see what they want. First, if they want.

F

C1 I'd be much more inclined to go to c1 and c2. That's just my opinion, though know.

D

I agree with you as well, so um yeah, linda and uh eric. If you follow up that'd, be great.

B

All right, yep, okay, this one's on hold for a possible change to c1; okay,.

A

Next up linda, um the next one is c203.

C

202020 97 crowd pass llc. The request is added to c2.

C

On this, property is located off of 97. This is known as the maryland mallet and the future.

C

Language, designation is agriculture. Staff gave this an unfavorable recommendation.

C

Because it was not consistent with the 2019 as amended master plan, and it's not consistent.

C

With the land use designation or to go through the area, although the property is not an ag, use.

C

It was a legally operated, non-conforming commercial use and they continue as such.

C

The planning commission gave this a favorable recommendation and actually found consistency with.

C

The master plan and 42 for a c 2 recommendation. There are some surrounding community comments.

C

That were given both verbally at our listening session and at the public hearing, as well as.

C

Written comments submitted regarding moving this property beyond its uh current ag designation.

A

So I know we got, you said we got some comments. I don't think we got many. We only got one didn't. We.

C

You know, um I think, just a few and then there's some neighbors. That are, um I think, the adjacent.

C

Neighbors that are a particular concern for this becoming more than what it currently.

C

Is make it with the c2 designation? They can expand beyond a restaurant. You can do any.

C

Of the situations which is, is very fair to say, and they thought they loved the restaurant, but.

C

Didn't want to see it expanding on being just that that was the essentially their comment.

A

Okay, while I appreciate that comment this, this is.

A

This is uh acreage. Wise doesn't lead to doing hardly anything here at all.

A

uh It's it's landlocked and uh I did meet with the owners, and one of their biggest concerns is what.

A

You guys talked about on the last property. um They they want to spend money uh to improve um their.

A

Their um their area there there's a retaining wall that they'd like to put in.

A

uh They'd like to build a a big crab deck on it, but they're not gonna, do it if they aren't zoned.

A

Correctly and they can't get the money according to the owners unless they do have the right zoning.

A

So there is no sense at all. I don't think that there would ever be anything.

A

Here, other than a restaurant and the years that I've grown up here.

A

It's never been anything but a restaurant, it's always been a restaurant and I can't imagine it.

A

uh Turning into something that, first of all, the storm water management and and the septic and.

A

All that I don't even know what else they'd be able to do there other than a restaurant, so.

A

I I I feel for the owners, because they're sort of in limbo, because they can't spend the money.

A

And they kind of quite frankly, looked at me and said you know if we don't get this.

A

We're not going to improve the property for our restaurant, especially in these troubling times.

A

That they're in anyway up there, so it is my intent to reach out. I know most of the neighbors up there.

A

To explain the position uh that we we're in here, but I think we truly need to make this what it is.

B

Yeah, I I agree with you um and there's other properties that we're going to dive into that.

D

Are going to be in the same situation, kind of like what commissioner boucher you shared? You know a.

D

Few minutes ago- and we have some coming up um same question as the last- can the restaurant that's.

D

Existing there now uh exist in a c1 zone property. Well, yes, they can. However, my understanding is.

C

That the drive-through portion may be something that they're seeking so drive-throughs are.

C

Prohibited in c1, but yes, a catering, banquet, hall, restaurant and tower are our primary principal.

C

Uses but the dry fruit was strictly prohibited, so they couldn't even get a conditional from pca. Okay,.

F

If this is rc1 or c2, doesn't it say something in there about accessibility of the of the.

F

Neighborhood being able to walk up or draw or ride a bike ups or something like that to the.

F

Existing property, where this is located, that would be impossible.

F

And I mean I could bike out there, but most people wouldn't bite that far but.

F

If that's what it says in the zoning- and I think it does, I'm sure mary's checking right now.

F

Then it doesn't, it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit. What our zoning category is.

G

Fisher fraser you're a wet blanket today.

C

That bikeable walkable reserve for the c1 community and c2 again we're trying.

C

To incorporate that wherever it makes sense, but in some cases it just doesn't and we.

C

Only have three commercial districts so we're trying to do a lot with three districts too. So.

D

uh Prohibited, or is it conditional.

D

In c1 prohibited, so it does not allow. They cannot go to the bca for a conditional approval.

D

How long has this restaurant been there? um I think uh forever. I think um george washington.

A

Perhaps may have slept in the uh dining area in the front of the building, uh in other words, when.

D

Commissioner weaver was about 30 or 40 yeah somewhere along those lines. Yeah it's been.

A

A it's been a it's changed hands a couple times, but ever since I've lived out there, it's always.

A

Been a restaurant always and there's no intent to do anything else with it and for the record.

A

I can't imagine anybody in the right mind that would want to take a bicycle 197 anywhere.

E

I I agree with you on that. One too, um you know this ground is not agricultural.

E

Obviously it's a wooded area, it's just a corner there. They are landlocked uh to keep a restaurant.

E

In there they want to make improvements and they have to upgrade. uh They need. The zoning.

E

In order to do that, and I uh where it's located, you look at the whole thing and it makes sense.

E

To keep it the way it is with that c2 and allow them to invest in the property, and you know it's.

E

Isolated and- uh and here again I don't think I've ever seen a bicycle even around that place, but.

E

Never know maybe a motorcycle, but a better bicycle. I don't know. I need some harley's up there. You.

G

Know all these small businesses are really hurting, and I must emphasize that now more than ever, I.

G

Think we as commissioners should try to help these little guys out and part of this rezoning would.

G

Really give them a boost up and help them yeah I'd say I I don't disagree with the sentiment, but.

D

We've got to be looking at long-term. What is best for carroll county, the tactical situation I 100.

D

Agree and it's you're right- it's tearing us apart, because we want to keep these businesses afloat.

D

But we also want to conform to the rules that we're putting in place, and this is.

D

This is a tough one, you know what, um because I want to, I want to get to. Yes, you know uh on this.

D

It's just, I want to be sure that we are conforming to the decision we're making or we take a look at.

D

The decision we've made on how we defined them and did we define them the best way or should we.

D

Reopen that- and we look at that as well- and that's that's fine too, um but yeah. This is.

E

Why did the planning commission have a favorable recommendation to this.

D

Gonna say in the same sense uh I would expect linda, is that uh there's no better use for this.

D

Than what's there now, and it is there's no ag value uh on that piece of property. So why not.

D

Let let you know, let let it be because it's there and let them get the funding, let you know and.

D

It's best for the community, um but again it's not that short-sighted, but we're making exceptions to.

D

The laws that we're putting in place, you know, or the definitions that we've been put in place.

D

And that's where we just have to you know, be very deliberate on how we're doing it.

G

You're wayne you want to make the motion well yeah, I'm I'm not sure where you're.

A

Going with that conversation, yet I can see part of it there, but.

A

um For me, it comes down to common sense. This is not ag property and it's it's.

A

And I I will say I got a sense that if they weren't able to get the right uh zoning here that.

A

This has the potential of not being anything and sitting empty, so I'm concerned about that as well.

A

um I just I I'm a I'm a believer in calling these calling these operations what they are.

A

um There's no barn here with all due respect and it these it just I don't. I don't. um I understand.

A

What a couple of the citizens said, because they they feel as if it's got the potential with c2.

A

To put other stuff there, but again I will advise that I don't think that's ever going to happen.

A

In my lifetime, because you can't do anything else with the property, it's not big enough.

A

And you couldn't do anything even with storm water and everything else that comes into play.

A

There's nothing else that could go there. It's a restaurant and that's what it is. Why not call.

A

It what it is so I'm going to provisionally make the motion that we allow for c2 here.

A

And I'll stop there I'll! Second, as long as commissioner frazier.

G

Doesn't open a bike shop up up there.

F

All right, okay, two comments caught what it is it's not conforming and my thing about the bike was.

F

In our in our in our zoning, where we're talking about c2, it says you should be able to get to the.

F

The uh c2 on the bike or or walking, that's why I brought that up. That's what I'm pretty sure.

F

That says that in our text, that's why I brought that up. I understand what everyone's saying about.

F

Helping out the person and probably nothing else is going to go there. I I understand completely.

E

Can you get to it with a bicycle and walking anything.

D

I'll tell you this is going to be in line with a couple, other properties that we're going to be.

D

Dealing with and if we're going down this, you know trend which I don't I do not disagree. uh You know.

D

I just want to make sure that we're showing some consistency as we move forward so, okay, there. It.

A

Is also the slight potential here I'll emphasize slight, that if this is if this is zoned, what it is.

A

That the state highway may come in to assist with some safety uh safety enhancements.

A

To that particular area uh there have been, there have been some accidents there and it's.

A

As a result of pulling out of that and well some some of it's been as it's a result of.

A

Pulling out of there, but it's also the result of people going 110 mile an hour in a 45 mile zone.

A

So there's that too, but um but there is the potential that that could occur.

A

As well, and that was brought up in the meeting that I had up there um if it's non-conforming.

A

And it's an ag to piece ag property the state's really not interested in enhancing it. If it's.

A

If it's not going to be there, that's the that was the key there. So all right.

A

I got a motion and second on this one, um any other other discussion on favor.

A

I got four in a post, okay, four to one on that, one provisionally.

A

C

Okay, um the next property um is c104202007 playtime corporation. The request is add to.

C

C1, the property is located off of old westminster pike. However, it does have frontage on the maryland.

C

140, but there is no access. Access comes from a long, driveway off west old westminster.

C

Pike and is behind existing residential housing. So again the future lane use recommendation. I mean.

C

Future land use is ag as it is for the surrounding community on the south side of maryland, 140.

C

um The property is in the 2014 carroll county master plan with the future land.

C

Use designation as ag, and this request is not consistent with that recommendation.

C

With that land use, um it is also inconsistent with the master plan um for two other reasons.

C

I apologize and you walk my train of thought um and it's in the upper.

C

That's gonna rural legacy area, although the property is not currently in ag use, it is a.

C

Legally operating commercial use as permitted in 158.07 d of the county code that allows.

C

For this type of daycare facility to be allowed in the ag district, changing this property from.

C

Ag to c1 would allow all the additional commercial investors in the c1 zone that were not envisioned.

C

By the 2014 master plans 2019 amendment, both staff and planning commission gave this an unfavorable.

C

Recommendation- and there were comments from the surrounding community, especially the neighbors.

C

um I'm going to go to this, and especially neighbors to the front of this property.

C

Seeing this to be bigger than a c1 or c2 used with the daycare center already, there.

E

This is definitely an interesting property. It's not much area there to do anything.

E

Really uh other than what they're doing with it, uh it slips off right into 140.

E

And no silver and water small little sliver up through there.

E

I not sure what to do with it here at the present time, but I can't see any.

E

Change I mean with everybody, saying unfavorable, I kind of agree with them. This is a very difficult.

E

Thing to change, I mean there's no real reason to change this piece of property. I mean. Is there.

D

The child care is allowed in the ag. It's a pregnant abuse, there's no non.

C

Right and everything in its surrounding there's no c1. It's all ag on.

D

On that side, in all uh heavy commercial or medium commercial c23 on the other side, um so.

D

Yeah, I it just does not conform to anything in the surrounding areas.

E

With I'm going to move that we have provisional non-acceptance, I leave it as ag.

F

A

Okay got a motion and second to leave it turn this turn this request down and.

A

Leave it the way it is provisionally uh I'll agree with you, dick. I can tell you.

A

If this property was in a better formation there, I might be okay to move, but this is this.

A

Is a weird place to sit and it's behind a lot of residents and I'm just not sure we're changing it.

A

So that's where I am with that one. So any other discussion on this one.

A

Okay, all those in favor of uh turning this one down and that's unanimous. Okay. Moving on linda.

C

All right, the next property is i209202018 melvin laney the request. um It is a split.

C

Zone property currently of ag conservation and request is to go to i2 heavy industrial.

C

So again, this property on here's, the aerial image, is off of salem bottom road and it's currently.

C

Used for contractor equipment, storage, the property has many environmental constraints on it. Currently.

C

And has a water resources protection easement on the wetlands are not found on the property.

C

Wetlands are on the jason property to the north. Also, there are steep slopes and forest cover.

C

Along the whole southern western portion of the property itself,.

C

Also, just to note, the floodplain easement is not on this property.

C

But again there is floodplain to the north of this property.

C

The future land use in the 2018 master plan is all resource conservation, though it's currently split.

C

Zoned ag and conservation, both planning, commission and staff gave this an unfavorable recommendation.

C

For eye tool, the properties designated, as I said, in resource conservation, this designation.

C

Is reserved for properties with natural or environmental resources as a articulated, their i2.

C

District is intended to provide for locations for activities characterized by heavy manufacturing.

C

Refining, processing or compounding of materials or products predominantly from raw material. So again.

C

The intent of the ie2 is for a heavy industry that would also potentially create strong odors.

C

Loud noises, uh some type of dust, vibration, smokes vapors, light pollution, etc. um It is intended that.

C

Properties in this district be located with access to major thoroughfares or other major.

C

Modes of transportation- and this is located off a county road- the permitted i2 uses- are.

C

The most intense of all those zoning districts and would not generally be compatible with residential.

C

Agricultural uses on the surrounding properties. The property is frontage on sale on bottom, which.

C

Is a rural, minor, collector road which should not be considered? As I said, a major thoroughfare.

C

However, we have not received any acquisitions from the community regarding this request.

G

All right for full disclosure- I'm personal friends with mel laney- and I told him that I'll support.

G

This, but I have to refuse myself from voting on it, I'm very much familiar with this property.

G

They wish to be able to store more of their industrial equipment there during the off-season.

G

And do some maintenance on it right now they have a couple of old buildings. That's.

G

The same predicament, some of these other property owners have that are non-conforming.

G

They'd like to level those old buildings, put a new maintenance building in there, so that during.

G

The off-season, when their equipment's sitting in storage, they can do some maintenance on it.

G

That property is severely restricted on how much you can and cannot do.

G

With it, the backside's, a real heavy slope, the bottom feeds into a stream.

G

But it would be an ideal place to store equipment. Do some maintenance. I support this, but I was.

G

Wondering if there can be a compromise, like commissioner rossing was offering earlier from.

G

C2 to c1, would there be a potential compromise, a light impact to make it i1 instead of i2? Would.

G

Would I one still allow them to store equipment there? If that was a compromise? Yes, it would.

H

Well, the i1 would allow that all right. Well, I like the motion that.

G

It be accepted provisionally it's i1, but I'm going gonna recuse myself from voting on this.

F

Well, this is another one: if we're going to go back and see, what's going to be i1 and said, i2.

F

We should go to the property owners if that's what they're comfortable with before we even waste time.

F

Voting and talking about it and not waste time, but you know uh talk about it that way. If that's what.

F

You want to do if you're looking at i2, it doesn't fit any parameters for i2 to go in this particular.

F

Spot so I would be totally against going. I too, I knew that didn't surprise anybody, but I would be.

F

Just our definitions and where it should be located and what's around it, it doesn't fit at all.

F

So I'd be totally against that, if you want to take it back to the proper only and ask them.

F

They want to go, I won, I'd have to see what I won is is and where it should be. Before I could say.

F

Yes or no to that because I haven't looked at it for this particular property yeah, I agree.

D

We should go back to the property owner to see if i1 does meet their their needs. The other piece is.

D

Instead of looking at the entire piece of property, is there a piece of this property that they.

D

Want to be re-zoned, because there is so much limitations on this property that you know.

D

I I I don't see why we would want to try to rezone the entire piece of property, but if there's a.

D

Portion of it, you know that they're looking at rezoning. That would be something you know.

D

That could be considered uh there's just not a lot to do on the property.

D

You know that's a real good point, but even if it was rezoned, they'd have to bring the plan.

G

Site for the county and the county would severely restrict where they can put it.

G

Anywhere, I think what you're getting at would be taken care of by the planning commission.

G

Like the that slope behind it and the waterways in the bottom, they couldn't do anything on that.

G

Anyway, even if they submitted a request, I'll contact, the owner and clark, shaffer and I'll get.

G

Get the information back to you as well on the change there from i2 to i1.

E

I agree, I talked to property owner and even the partial signing eric may come in here.

E

It's 11 acre parcel, uh you know if they would take five and a half acres over half of it.

E

And re-zone, as I won, maybe that would be uh all they need at this point and keep everything going.

E

And yet not deal with the environment, environmental issues.

A

Okay, so we got two possibilities here: uh partial and then i2 to i1. So if we can get the information.

A

On that, I take it we're on hold with this one as well, for additional information, correct.

D

Yeah, I believe so. Okay, I'm sorry. I missed that last statement. Commissioner, wants I um if, if I may.

I

Suggest that that staff reach out to the applicant to determine whether they're interested in um in.

I

Making any amendments to their application, whether it's by size of the area or the type of zoning.

I

Rather than rather than one of the commissioners, um that would be, I think, appropriate.

G

Keep it out there. Thank you yeah. I think we all agree with that. One.

A

That we should, in all these, let staff take care of the inquiries when we want to have a.

A

Possibility of a change? Okay, all right, this one's on hold then, and for more information and.

A

Next, one up, so the next property is c2042020019 gems investment llc. The request is conservation.

C

To c2, the property is located in the facebook area just to the west of the bridge coming over.

C

From baltimore county over the liberty reservoir, and it is in the things bird plan, the property.

C

Is this whole entire peninsula, um between old westminster pike and baltimore boulevard.

C

However, the applicant put in the request to limit the request from the entire parcel.

C

To the blue outlined portion above, which is the more viable piece of the property, this property is.

C

Severely constrained by environmental resources, forest covers steep slopes, as well as streams.

C

And is the head water to one stream that flows directly into the liberty reservoir itself.

C

The future land use in the freedom, I'm sorry in the finksburg plan is conservation, and we also.

C

Answered a question for commissioner frazier that he had at a prior meeting with regard to.

C

The parcel that is directly across the street part of commit planning commission's rationale.

C

For the favorable recommendation for c2 was looking at the property directly across the street.

C

um Baltimore boulevard or maryland 140., so the zoning history of that parcel, which is map.

C

59 parcel 180 and is approximately 4.62 acres of the c2, so in 1965 that entire.

C

Property to the north was conservation. Zoning in the 1981 finnsburg area environments plan.

C

um It was still private conservation, so we had two lanes designations at that time for conservation.

C

Private conservation mean it was privately held and public conservation, which was a public either.

C

Institutional or um some type of resource used for conservation, then dating back to 1982. There was a.

C

Piecemeal reasoning, that's the type of rezoning where you need to change your mistake and the.

C

Request went from conservation to industrial light at that time, which was our former ir district.

C

Then another and that was denied then again in 1990 there was a another request for the same type.

C

Of rezoning, and that was approved, then in 1991 with the map amendment. Finally, though, in the 2013.

C

Finksburg corridor plan and subsequent comprehensive rezoning.

C

That particular piece again we're talking about the piece to the north went from ir to vg or.

C

Business general and it has been business general since our most recent comprehensive rezoning to.

C

Move properties out of the form would be in rmbt districts to the current c1, c2 and c3 districts.

C

And it was rezoned to c2 in 2019.. So that is the history of why that particular piece to the north.

C

Is in the commercial district, but it was, our original intent was for conservation.

C

And that's the only new information I have on this site.

C

So again, scott gave this an unfavorable recommendation as c2 commercial medium, because it.

C

Is in recommendations of the freedom community, comprehensive plan.

C

Environmental constraints on the property, such as forest cover steep slopes and streams.

C

And the requests pose a significant adverse effect on the liberty reservoir, as well as the reservoir.

C

Technical group to give unfavorable comments for this particular researching request, as well as the.

C

Surrounding community on old westminster pike um did give before written comments regarding.

C

The change in the reason, however, planning commission did give a favorable recommendation.

C

uh And didn't make it consistent with the things bird plan, because it is located in the things.

C

For designated growth area, it is located on maryland, 140 and is requested. What and.

C

Is consistent with the rezoning that I just described to the north on maryland 140 and gives.

C

The same environmental, buffer and environmental concerns will be addressed during the site plan.

C

Review so planning commission did forward this request to you with a favorable recommendation.

E

This is again an interesting property to look at. I think, if you look at the map, the top portion.

E

Is the old capsico mine that that's what they're talking about being able to do something with and.

E

I'm not sure what lies underneath. That's, of course not our issue, but the lower portion of this uh is.

E

uh Major contra conservation, I would think, and with the reservoir lying right at the.

E

Base of that, um it's very interesting what we can do with it. um I I've been thinking about this one.

E

And um you know the reservoir right there, but here again would it would approach they can't use the.

E

Lower portion of this, it would only be the top portion if they went with anything. uh Could we.

E

Limit the rezoning only to uh you know you have it there. How many acres is that that blue portion.

C

The blue portion ah hold on I'm in the wrong place in my book. Keep talking I'll get it for you.

E

You know any more than that. You know this is really is on on the edge.

F

In my notes, I had that down as four acres of what you're talking about commissioner weaver.

F

I I don't know if that's exactly right, but I wrote down four acres for that portion yeah. I think I.

D

Think you're right, it's like four and a half acre and that's that's what the planning commission.

D

Was determining as well, because it would be in line with the commercial on the other side of.

D

uh Baltimore pike um and it's far enough away from the reservoir uh for any concerns and plus.

D

Like commissioner boucher said, any development that's going to be made will go be going through.

D

The planning commission, regardless to make sure that it meets the the appropriate requirements.

D

So I like what the planning commission did uh very deliberately in taking a look at this piece of.

D

Property, uh which kind of gives that compromise approach as well yeah. I uh I know that I have a.

E

Stormwater management we'll give them another way to look at this, I'm sure when they get into it.

E

uh But I'll move we provisionally uh accept the uh blue portion uh fc2.

F

My concern with this I do have a concern. Is that there's no planned.

F

Water or sewer service in this area, therefore, it's going to be one septic.

F

And it's very close to the reservoir. That's my concern with this particular piece of property.

F

That's all of our drinking water. Basically, it's right there, there's! No, if it had water.

F

And sewer going to it, I'd be like yes, it's ideal, I don't have any problems with it, but because it.

F

Doesn't have order orders nothing planned for the air. That's my real concern about this property.

F

Even though they're only going to use the four acres instead of the bottom part.

F

And stuff still migrates, it really does I I that's my worry and I know it go through something.

F

I just want to bring that up. That's a very good concern, especially in this area. There's a lot of.

E

Septic issues uh just north of here, uh in fact, this whole area, I think in the uh has.

E

Been downsized as far as growth area, what the one square mile linda updates with them right, uh 625.

E

Acres or something uh they really have downsized things for a growth uh area and a lot of it's due.

E

To sewer and water time that gets down here, uh maybe a hundred years from now, if we're lucky.

E

For that, so that is a major concern and uh I agree with you. This would probably be the last parcel.

E

In this area that anything will be done with, uh I would think in this area. You can't get that.

E

Close to the reservoir and expect the people in uh eldersburg and freedom to be drinking the water, so.

A

My concern I I go, I go with that concern. My concern is also with access to this piece of.

A

Property, I can't imagine that the state highway administration is going to allow any access off.

A

Of 140 for anything additional, that's a bad place right down through there. We got a lot of.

A

Accidents in there, so that means that then it would only be accessed off of old westminster.

A

Pike which would put an access and entrance past a lot of residential areas, and I bet there's going.

A

To be a lot of yelling about that, because that's not the best place and that intersection of old.

A

Westminster road or whatever it is westminster, road and 140. I can't imagine that the state.

A

Highway is still allowing people to turn left or right onto that. Actually, because that's.

A

A terrible spot, so I I've got a real concern with highway safety issues throughout there and.

A

Access to the property, in addition to the water and sewer and dick, I remember you talking about.

A

The water and sewer issues down there in finksburg, where a lot of the septic systems are failing.

A

I'm not sure what these folks are going to be able to do and it's on a hill and it all.

A

Goes downhill, you know. A plumber once told me about what happens downhill just saying.

E

Water flows downhill. I thought politicians go downhill.

F

Thank you, mr white. I never thought about the access on and off, I'm glad you're.

F

You're here, because you always had that safety aspect to bring up.

F

I'm cause, I was very concerned about the water and sewer, and that was where I was.

F

Sitting on, but you know bringing up the access. Well, it's it's a it's a good, very good point.

E

Yes, you don't make a left on that road if you're coming north.

E

From three o'clock on or in the morning anytime, you might, in the middle of the day,.

E

But any other time you're taking your life in your hands old westminster road is not a.

E

Heavily traffic travel road, that's the only uh good thing about it, but it's a paved cow path.

D

Now it is a very good point and um unfortunately, the arguments we've been hearing have been well.

D

We're not going to look at the traffic until something zoned until there's a developer.

D

Wanting to develop and again that's where I've shared, I feel like it's asked backwards.

D

In so many ways when we do things like this um and we're going to be hitting the same.

D

Thing with the residential properties, you know, because of increased traffic.

D

Therefore, do we do we put into consideration the traffic the existing water and sewer.

D

While we're trying to rezone something or do we allow the developer, say: okay, now, that's rezoned.

D

You figure it out um that you know that. That's that's the challenge! You know that we're.

D

We're putting in front of so I don't know steve yeah, that's a good point, ed! I'm I'm right! There.

A

With you on that one I um yeah, I think this one might be a little bit different, because.

A

Going back to what I originally said, with the state highway administration.

A

This would be something I think that they would go you're not getting access there. So then that would.

A

Lead us to not being able to do anything ourselves so when it comes to residential properties, ed and.

A

Some of the things that we would be allowed to do- those are things that we quite possibly could do.

A

Ourselves without the intervention of of the state highway, so I think this is maybe a tad different.

A

But yet the same, if I don't know six and one half does the other there's, but but um I I just.

A

I just think this is not the best place and I think, to protect.

A

uh That reservoir, that, by the way, should be ours just putting that out there again.

A

um I know that ship has sailed. I got it but uh yeah yeah yeah. I know, um but I just think anything.

A

Beyond what is already there is is, is encroaching on um some serious issues down there, so I'm I'm.

A

Against this one, for all those reasons is the is the property to the west, that zone commercial.

D

Is it occupied right now and is there access storage facility and to your point, commissioner,.

C

Had this property designated in the finsburg plan as commercial, there would have been some.

C

Preliminary discussion at that time with state highway as we do with all of our planning process.

C

We do look at traffic, so we may not do an in-depth study like we would a traffic study when a.

C

Project has come into development review because again it's like a funnel. You have.

C

The more wider general stuff at the planning level, but then at the same plan it's much more narrowly.

C

Focused and so then state highway has a plan to actually um a site plan to actually respond to.

C

So this was not part of any planning process. This is a request from the property owner during.

C

This open by request phase for this, so I think the commissioner um rance's point.

C

You know state highly honestly other than what we vetted through this process was not.

C

Vetted through a planning process to make this commercial at this particular location,.

E

You know this is not. uh I agree with you. This is well. First of all, state highway is not gonna.

E

Let us deal with it, uh there's a lot of issues here. I I don't know why anybody want to go uh c2.

E

On this site, to tell you the truth, but uh you know I'm touring myself on this, uh uh where we, what.

E

We do with it, and this is a lot of a lot due to traffic a lot of due to uh environmental concerns.

E

uh The reservoir being right, there um depends what they intend to do with it. It can be.

E

um It could be major and I think, you're right. This is when we should have the horse in front of.

E

The car doing it uh before I, instead after which, like we've, been doing it, but uh uh you know if you.

E

Can't do it, why would you maybe we shouldn't give the zoning to it uh at this point.

E

May have jumped the gun there steve. You have a valid point uh very good point on this.

A

So you got a motion on the table, dick nobody s seconded, yet I don't think I don't withdraw that.

A

Did you second it eric? He did. Okay, sorry! I I lost track. I'm sorry! That's all right! I'm just.

G

A little bit confused where you have looking at the map- that's commercial across the street.

G

It's commercial on the same side of street. That's what a mini storage next door! To it. I mean why.

G

Wouldn't someone or why, wouldn't we approve someone putting a mini storage in this lot? How.

G

Would it be any different? I just I just want to be consistent by looking at that map of all that red.

G

How is it inconsistent to turn this lot into red as well, if it was commercial and someone.

G

Put into plan once again that plan would have to go through all of their new approval.

G

And if it doesn't meet the traffic requirements, there's all kinds of things in the process that.

G

Could stop it if it doesn't work, but I think at the very least we should set it up for the zoning.

G

And then whoever owns it can go through the process and we can filter out in that process.

E

We need topography lines, uh it gets very steep in there. I think, to see what we're talking about.

D

Right but but uh as commissioner boucher you know shared, I absolutely agree, um you know let.

D

The property owner have the opportunity to figure out how he or she wants it developed we're already.

D

Taking a portion of it because it is too close uh to the reservoir um and we don't agree with.

D

That it is in line with the commercial on both sides of uh of the highway. um I understand the the.

D

Traffic concern, but all that other commercial that exists right now is dealing with it. So I don't see.

D

Why we wouldn't allow this to move forward? I mentioned that we provisionally accept it.

D

Did did we have a dick? Did you withdraw that motion.

E

I was thinking too yeah yeah, I'm really torn on this one where to go.

E

uh Talked to the landowner and I've talked to people, you know, and it's.

E

If we just take the top portion like they've requested, it does make sense.

E

To make that a clear line, but um let's let the landowner decide on what he's going to do and.

E

uh Eric you want to make the motion I'll second, that let's vote on it. No, I.

D

So did dick either you either made the motion and every second, if you withdrew.

D

It eric just made the motion and I will second it and then we can go from there.

A

You went through your original motion right dick yeah, yeah and then consequently, eric.

A

Shears went away ed. You just made a new motion to provisionally accept this change.

A

Okay, okay, see: that's why I said I want to go straight.

A

Okay, all right um any more discussion on this one.

A

Okay, all those in favor.

A

Okay, that's three and those against, and that's two so we're sort of in splitsies here with that.

A

So we'll again, just provisionally that's where we are right now: hey dick mutes, your.

A

Mic when you're you're we're getting feedback? I'm sorry! That's all right! Okay, cool all right, linda.

C

Okay, so we're down to our last property discussion for today, and that is c205202028.

C

Mong meadow farm llc, the request is i1 to c2. This is also known as the baby property.

C

The property is situated um south of bennett, road and off the progress way and north of.

C

Maryland 26 and east of maryland 32 sykesville road. So here's an aerial image.

C

The request that came in is different than the future land use designation, as articulated in the.

C

2018 freedom, community comprehensive plan, so the property is actually made smaller and.

C

Its boundaries from 40 acres to 30 acres and I apologize. I thought I had a more updated map.

C

The applicant also shifted this boundary down um and had it more in line with the northern.

C

Portion being a long progress way and the southern portion coming closer to georgetown, so I apologize.

C

For that that I had the correct imagery- and here it was a slight change from what you're seeing.

C

On your screen, but it is correct on the zoning and map that is posted on the accounting website.

C

Which will be the official map um once you go to adopt any of the changes that will be adopted so.

C

Both staff and planning commission gave this a favorable recommendation for c2 um planning.

C

Commission gave it a favorable recommendation with this revised boundary that was submitted.

C

um As we went through the process, so this plan is consistent with the 2018 freedom community.

C

Comprehensive plan, the future land use designation, as expressed in the plant, its situation within.

C

The freedom designated birth area, its proximity to maryland, 32 and 26, and um there is water and store.

C

Actually, even lines that run through the property, uh making this an ideal candidate for commercial.

C

Medium zoning, however, there have been many comments from the community in opposition to this.

C

Request, this is probably one of our more local properties as far as commenters go just wanted to.

C

Make you aware again and that we've received the oral and written comments regarding this change.

C

And also, there is a parallel process moving forward currently that you all will be reported to.

C

You shortly for the residential portion, that is, on the balance of the property. So again, um the r 20.

C

000 then, whatever is in that c2 zone will become our 20th or the petition is to be our 20 000.

D

Okay, so there has been, as we all know, a lot of discussion and.

D

We got to get this one right. um I really believe that.

D

Because there is very few properties like this left, especially down in south carol,.

D

There is no surrounding uh c2 uh property uh for what is being requested. uh There is industrial.

D

On the south side of bennett- um and it's been there- mohawk's been here for a long long time.

D

So, um first my my recommendations. We do not uh move forward with a c2. uh You know provisional.

D

C2 decision uh we leave it as is, but also my recommendation is that we uh make a final decision.

D

And determination that is going to be tied to the residential piece, it is one piece of property.

D

And again we got to get it right. I do believe it's a great opportunity for a pud of some sort.

D

A planned development um and if we do one without the other, I think we're very short-sighted. um I've.

D

Been participating with the uh with the fdca, with the uh freedom district group and linda and mary.

D

I really applaud them for also participating as well. uh It's a tough one. You know, but there's.

D

Very few pieces of property like this left so again, my motion is to uh not favor change at.

D

This time and if any changes to be made at a later time, that's tied in with the residential decisions.

D

We're going to make for the bd property with that this property, I think the property owners even.

E

Have been perhaps changed their mind and what they want to do with some of this talking to.

E

A lot of people in that area and the property owners uh I haven't talked to them recently, but.

E

I think yeah this has to be correct. I think we really have issues with more uh infrastructure.

E

Route 32 exiting out here uh yeah. This has to be done correct, and this has been a topic.

E

Of controversy, for since I can remember here so I'm going to second, your motion.

F

Hey linda, what's the light on, I wants.

C

Sir, can you repeat that what is allowed in i1 what's currently zoned.

C

As far as more of the commercial retail being allowed, um you can have a hotel or motel.

C

A contractor's office, a facility for dispensing medical cannabis, um you can have a professional.

C

Business or office um or an office or industrial park, an indoor rec facility um building our.

C

Landscaping supply company butcher shop, as well as a rental of vehicles and storage of goods.

C

There's no housing allowed in the eye. A trade, school or professional training center is allowed.

C

The artisan type of manufacturing and then conditional uses are the concrete mixing plants.

C

Concrete ceramic products manufacturing asphalt recycling, so you know it's in between those.

C

Commercial and heavier industrial type of uses, so some of the more heavy uses are a.

C

Food processing, plant um indoor processing with medical cannabis light manufacturing is permitted.

F

Okay, thank you. I know you can stop it. That's enough. I heard it good, but I'm, which is why I'm.

F

Kind of confused we've heard a lot of uh against this, so people in the neighborhood rather have.

F

Light manufacturing, asphalt or concrete plant in the air, rather than commercial, with all.

F

The homes that I mean we haven't done the area directly around that yet and, like ed said it is.

F

Connected, let's face it, it is, but that's probably going to be residential there. I don't know if I'd.

F

Rather, have a concrete plant closer to me or a store, I'm pretty sure I'd rather have a store. I.

F

I don't that's why I'm question, I don't understand the opposition yeah. No, I I understand.

D

Everything to the to the west of it. If you look at progress, I mean that's all merit properties.

D

That that tie into it and it would conform to that it could you're right. It could go to the extreme.

D

To a much heavier, I one situation, but the most more probability is it would conform to.

D

What's west of uh what will be georgetown, because georgetown will extend from 26.

D

Up to uh progress that is in the plans um and it'll be a circle georgetown in london, town.

D

Is the intent um right linda is that correct, georgetown, londontown circle.

C

Yes and no so um the county did put in the cip for just the circle portion of uh georgetown.

C

At londontown, however, any roadway construction would be um have to be done by the developer of.

C

The properties that we're discussing the further georgetown to progress- it's just the.

D

I I know what you're saying and that's where the planning commission was coming to as well.

D

Saying why would they want I, as opposed to a much lesser you know uh commercial talking to.

D

The community they're looking at they, they want to conform to what's already there because that's I.

D

Think what they're used to they want to develop the um residential into medium residential.

D

Surrounding it, but they want it to all kind of be together and that's that's where we really gotta.

D

Look at um changing it right now by itself is not, I don't believe, a good idea whatsoever.

E

I think the property owners given the opportunity- if it's not changed here now, uh I think it was.

E

Alluded to they may want to go residential uh in the future here, so uh I think we have to.

E

Not jump the gun on this one and believe me, this is one of the last parcels there and it has to.

E

Be done correctly, I I do agree with and we don't have the infrastructure for it uh with the roads.

E

We don't really have the schools right, therefore, here either at the present time. uh I think all the.

E

Elementary schools are overcrowded right in that area. So, no matter what we do, it's going to be.

E

An issue, but I think we have to give it a little bit of time and let them come back.

E

And request it: they can come back anytime and request individuals dick one. One thing, though, is.

D

What what you're looking at on the screen is the future land use? If you go back to the existing use.

D

Probably one slide or so linda.

D

That's right that whole surrounding area around that parcel is right, is currently zoned. Industrial.

D

um And industrial, I won the entire surrounding area. What they want to do is take the 30 acres and.

D

That blue box used to be 40, 30, make it industrial and then the surrounding area that is zoned.

D

Right now, industrial changed that to commerce to uh residential uh medium. So it's currently it's.

D

Not residential but it will be, and that's the that's the vision of the beatty property so.

D

Yeah so so yeah go ahead. Guys! I'm sorry! No that's! So! That's fine! Just hard! It's.

F

Just hard to and understand, that's the vision, and I have heard that as well.

F

But it's just hard to believe that you people would move in.

F

On property right around here, when it's zoned i1 and all the different things you can put in there.

F

Do you really want to move next to a couple, and may you know it might not be the worst case.

F

Scenario but it might and until it gets developed you don't know what's in there, so you expect.

F

I mean, I guess, they're expecting that people move in around that surrounding area there, when, if that.

F

Gets resumed through the commercial, medium or whatever, or I mean that commercial residential.

F

People are going to move in next door to some of those things that could possibly be put on it. I.

F

Just it would be more palatable, I think if it was commercial, but I it's not my area, I'm going to try.

F

To file ed on this one and I'd it's hard for me to say that. But I am going to try to follow ed on.

F

This one, because he's dealing with that area much more than I am, he has a much better. uh His fingers.

F

On the pulse down here more than I am it's just it's counterintuitive as to why you would want.

F

To keep it there for the things that you can put in there yeah, so so it's either. We leave it, as is.

D

With an unfavorable, uh you know preliminary or we table it and do not make a decision on the.

D

Rezoning of this piece of property until we make a determination on the rezoning of the entire.

D

Beta property, that would be more favorable, I mean that's where I really love to go. If we can do that.

D

Where we're then taking the entire baby property and looking at its uh residential.

D

Commercial, slash, industrial as a whole. I think we'll have a much better product.

D

And be much better for the uh for the county in south carolina. So if we do that, I you know so I.

D

Can withdraw my my original, and that would be my motion so excuse me, commissioners, before we move.

C

Forward on that I will, I will say I would want to talk with um our county attorney on that option.

C

Because right now we're in a comprehensive process, so I would need to figure out how we could do both.

C

Pieces comprehensively, because that's where we are now with this particular process, um I just.

C

Want to be careful with that, because I'm not 100 sure, okay, that's what I'd like to do so roberta.

I

I was just gonna say: um we'll certainly check it out, but since we're, if, unless the commissioners.

I

Change their mind and don't want to go forward with the comprehensive on the residential.

I

You just delay this until that conversation, I would think, but we'll check with with um tim.

G

I must say that I'm in agreement with commissioner fraser, it's a bit confusing to me how the.

G

Residents around here don't want this to go commercial, but they'd rather have an industrial.

G

But also wasn't: isn't the the intent of this property developer to put some sort of 55 plus.

G

Housing in there, that's why they want the c2 zoning, and, if so, I am in support of that.

G

Because one of every three citizens of this county is going to be above 60 within 10 years.

G

And we we are going to be in a short supply of housing for our senior citizens, and this fits.

G

Into that long-term plan we have, and if we can't get that I'd be in favor of keeping that whole.

G

Area, industrial because we are in short supply of industrial land, but then again I think why would.

G

The residents around there want industrial property there, instead of a senior housing.

G

So I'm a bit confused, but ultimately I have to be submissive with what commissioner rosting.

G

Supports in that area, because it is his district and he's gonna get the brunt of whatever happens.

G

What comes down to pike, so, whatever ed wants on this, I'm going to have to follow, but I.

G

Am confused on what their citizens want down there? Okay! Well, I, rather you not be submissive and.

D

It's definitely not whatever I want, because it really is. It is good for south carol, good.

D

For eldersburg, but it's really what's good for carroll county. um I do believe waiting.

D

And doing it together with the entire baby property, both residential and determination.

D

On commercial industrial at that point is what is in our best interest, um because it should be.

D

A well-thought-out planned development there was discussion of a 55 and over um complex.

D

It didn't go much further than just in discussion, so I don't know- and that was from the.

D

Legal side of it not from any developer um at this point so um yeah, so I stand by.

D

I think that's what we should be doing at this point and yeah. We just, I think.

D

I'm just determined I want to get this right. I want to get this piece of property right so.

A

So my only question I'm going to leave this. I think we're getting to the conclusion here.

A

But everything on either side of progress off of 32 is already i1.

A

So I haven't heard what what's going on there, if somebody all of a sudden wants to do something.

A

There is the is: are the citizens down there gonna gonna gonna come roaring in with that.

A

Too, or I'm just curious, because this this piece would connect to all the rest of the I want in.

A

There so what correct and and that's why leaving it as I won, was the initial recommendation.

D

From me, because that is that's all merit property they're well established. You got mohawk.

D

Up uh south of bennett, I mean roberta knows this area very well um and you're right. It ties.

D

Directly into what already exists as industrial, and there is no intent.

D

Of that changing roberta yeah, I was just gonna say I I believe and linda can correct me if I'm wrong.

I

That all of that industrial property that is pink on this um particular map is developed.

I

I don't think there are any parcels that are undeveloped there and that's not part of the.

I

Commercial industrial rezoning comprehensively yeah, you got the bait, you got the bakery.

C

For the bakery um and that's been developed since I think this aerial imagery, so everything is fully.

C

Developed and now being redeveloped along the london town portion, okay, okay, it I rarely go.

A

Down into that area of progress, I'm typically on 32 or on london, town or georgetown, so I'm not.

A

Really familiar with what's back there, so um I'm good with whatever you want to do with this one. Ed.

A

In the in the to make sure that we do this right, I agree. I'm a little bit puzzled, that folks down.

A

There, because if you do the math, there are two to three cars per household. So if you're gonna.

A

Do all residential in there and you're adding a lot of cars to eldersburg instead of like a piece.

A

Of instead of a company or something so I guess that's okay, I I don't know see here I go with.

A

My safety thing again because you're gonna, you you put all that in residential, you are going to throw.

A

Hundreds, if not thousands, of vehicles onto roads down there.

G

And kids on pedal bikes, I would like to say, commissioner, ross dean. Don't.

G

Steer me wrong on this, because if you do, I'm gonna hear from delegate krebs on it.

D

That's that doesn't bother me whatsoever and she can call you anytime uh yeah. I think um again.

D

I think getting it right. Let's look at the rezoning of this piece of property.

D

In conjunction with the decisions we make on the rest of the baby property.

A

Okay, I'm good with that. I just if it all goes residential.

A

It probably won't be us, but another board is going to hear then about all the vehicles that.

A

Are down there and you can't get out, you can't get kind of a catch 22 here, ladies and gentlemen,.

G

And school capacity? Well, that's the other thing I mean: we've already had ed's already been working.

A

On that, especially with freedom elementary uh right, which in which, which basically.

A

Now, which begs the argument of you know, if you put you know four bakeries in here.

A

Instead of 110 houses, isn't that I don't know I I guess I'm looking at it wrong. I don't.

D

I'm not sure I think you're looking at it right and you're right, carrolltown and freedom uh are.

D

Big concerns elementary schools, um the uh the road network um off of liberty with georgetown.

D

uh Expansion or extension is a piece of this. I mean there's a lot of pieces towards us.

D

We limited it from the 40 acres to 30 acres that they wanted to change to or.

D

Change from industrial to commercial, my recommendation is keeping it and the rest of that.

D

Area, I think it's like a hundred and ten eighty on how large is the uh request, linda for residential.

C

um I don't have any total properties, 107.

D

Minus 117., so I think it's like 90 acres or 80 acres, they're, looking at residential.

A

Okay, I'm good with your recommendation ed. I just that just.

A

When you talk about 117 acres of residential and you do the math that planners do of two.

A

To three vehicles per household and how many children per household good.

A

I think I'd rather have [ __ ] come in and make bread there with with 30 employees. I don't know.

E

This is the issue we're having gonna have throughout the county, though, and the roads and our.

E

Lack of infrastructure to handle them as no matter what we do in the growth area and, as we start.

E

Growing- and we haven't seen it right now with the schools, but it will, we will be back and.

E

You know this is, I think one thing we have to keep in the back remind as we get through this.

E

Everywhere here in uh comprehensive reasoning, yeah we'll be having this conversation with.

D

Disabled property, the the tough part about what we're doing is we're calling it comprehensive.

D

And we're trying to be very comprehensive, but the challenge is when we're looking at one.

D

Piece of property and its effects on another piece and then another piece, um and we do it.

D

Sequentially, it becomes just very difficult, I mean I think I think we're doing very well, but.

D

uh It does add up that's for darn sure, especially when it comes to schools and safety.

A

Okay, I think we've probably debated this one uh enough. We didn't vote on that yet so.

A

Ed remind us again of what your recommendation was leave it the way. It is right until further.

D

Correct that we make a a final determination in conjunction with the.

D

Rest of the baby property as it comes to us. Okay, did you second, that dick.

A

We were yeah, okay, all right, um all those in favor.

A

That seems to be unanimous at this point: okay, linda, um so the next work session will be on.

C

December 22nd from 1 to 3 p.m. So, a week from today, I guess my one question for direction.

C

From the commissioners is, do you want to hear the properties from last week and then pick up.

C

In january we do have the january 5th hold on your calendar and the 12th to go back to.

C

The properties that still have questions- and we can do that in january- do you want us to.

C

Lead off with on the two properties that you have uh additional questions regarding today,.

F

How many properties do we have left to look over um about 10 more well, I want it just.

F

Be my suggestion, then: let's try to get the two properties we have questions on today. Get those.

F

Questions answered start with those two and try to hit the next ten, because we can get all this.

F

Wrapped up before christmas for a preliminary vote, I think that would be a uh you know very, very good.

A

Agreed, I agree with that. Okay, all right, um anything else, linda! No, that's all I have for you.

C

All today, okay, anything else that anybody has uh missed miscellaneous here, question to a journalist.

A

Yeah, so there's that hey uh they'll they'll be doing a press release, I'm sure, but.

A

As a result of the storm, there will be no testing at the uh chipley arena on thursday.

A

And um I'm sure there will be more decisions that are going to be made in reference to.

A

The pending 10 to 14 inches that were expected in this in this region, actually 6 to 10 down in.

A

Eldersburg but 10 to 14 from westminster north. So all right got a motion and second, to adjourn.

A

Everybody stay safe, all those in favor.

A

All right, thank you linda and staff, and we'll see everybody possibly on thursday. Take care.

A