Carroll County, MD Carroll County Board of Zoning Appeals, 26 Sep 2023

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From YouTube: Board Of Zoning Appeals September 26, 2023

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A

I'm going to call the bza meeting to order and our first order of business here this morning is.

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uh Vapco case number 6469 and before we begin, um I want to disclose that my daughter is an employee.

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Of evapco, um we have not talked about this, I don't when they keep when this case came up, it.

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Was the first I knew about it and I'm sure, with a low-level employee that she is? This will not.

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Affect her employment, and this will not affect my ability to judge this case, uh independent of that.

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So so with that, um mr dixon, could you go ahead and enter well before we get started, make sure.

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That you leave by the same door, you came in, make sure your electronic devices are silenced and if.

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You haven't signed in on the sheet on the side. The clipboard on the side make sure you do so before.

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You leave today, mr dixon, could you go ahead and introduce the file for us? Please all right? Okay,.

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6469 a request for conditional use for contractors, equipment, storage, yard and multiple variances. The.

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Site is located at christ mill road at route, 140 taneytown, maryland on property zone, a agricultural.

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District and election district, one by evapco inc code of public local laws and ordinances.

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Sections 158.040, 158.07, 1.01 and 158.173 site visit is tentatively scheduled for september.

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20Th 2023 at approximately 9 30 a.m. In the file this matter, we have the following documents:.

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A september 25th 2023 letter from james, a wifebreak city.

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Manager, city of taneytown, writing on behalf of city of tony town.

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Request for conditional use contractor equipment, storage, we support the application and encourage.

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You to approve the conditional use and grant the variances that evapco inc seeks.

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Subject, property is within the municipal growth area adopted in our most recent comprehensive plan.

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For that reason, we received the application for consistency with our comprehensive plan. uh We find.

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That the proposed use and the requested variances are consistent with our planning documents.

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They are the site minutes for this case, there is a response to joe vance's request of various state.

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And local agencies from thomas harris permits and inspections, there are no comments at this time.

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There's a september 13 2023 letter from christopher hahn, pe secretary after.

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Having reviewed the information contained in the attached analysis, the facts that's presented in.

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The application, the relevant portions of the plan and in accordance with the land, use article this.

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Conditional use request if granted is consistent with the policies. Timing of the implementation of.

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The plan, timing and development, timing of rezoning development patterns, land uses and densities or.

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Intensities this is september 13 2023, memo from randolph mitchell planning technician to the board.

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The above reference bza case has been reviewed for consistency with the policies and recommendations.

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Contained in the 2010 2010 comprehensive plan, 2014 carroll county master plan, as amended in 2019.

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Carroll, county, water and sewer master plan and other functional plans.

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Planning staff fines. This request for conditional use in multiple variances is consistent with the.

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2010 2010 comprehensive plan and would not have an adverse effect on the current use of the property.

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Notice, the public hearing dated september 4th 2023 for this case.

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There is a response to joe vance's request of various state and local agencies from.

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Janet o'meara bureau chief resource management, she has an attack sheet.

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Safe plan will need to address chapter 150 for his conservation.

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Provide grading plan and show units or limits of disturbance, easement will be required.

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Among other things, there's a response today, there's a response to joe vance's request.

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To various state and local agencies from jay voigt zoning administrator comments, no comments.

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There is a response to joe vance's request from laura matias bureau chief development.

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Review a plan will need to be processed on in accordance with chapter 155.

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Hearing notice was posted.

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8 24 2023 by scott robinson zoning inspector.

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Here's a response to joe's answers, request from andrea hanley, carroll, county environmental, health.

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Department comments proposed use may not be acceptable unless it is demonstrated that.

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There is an adequate water supply and adequate area for the installation of an initial and two.

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Replacement septic systems for the proposed use and any existing uses of this property. There is.

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A response to joe vance's request from jp smith, jr program manager ag land preservation program.

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This property is not in act preservation. I have no comments at this time.

B

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There's august 10th 2023 letter from kelly schaefer miller to the board.

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That includes the application and then there is a plan from ddc development design consultants. I.

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Would ask that the file be entered into evidence? Do we have a motion to move the following evidence.

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So moved seconded, okay, all is in favor aye. All right all opposed no move the file into evidence.

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uh With that, uh let me explain the process. I see some new faces in the audience that have never.

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Endured our our bza hearings and what we will do is the applicant uh will is represented by.

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Legal counsel, mr schaefer miller, and she will present her case uh she'll, I'm assuming we'll.

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Call witnesses and after each witness gives their testimony anyone from the audience can.

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Ask them questions of their testimony again. It has to be asking them questions or testimony the.

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Board will have that same opportunity after this shaffer miller is finished with her.

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Witnesses than any of you in the audience can go to the microphone and give your own testimony so.

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Again, the first part of this is just questions of testimony uh that anyone from the applicant.

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May give so I promise you at the end of the hearing, you'll under understand the process.

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You're, probably a little confused right now, but you will understand the process at the end.

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Okay, miss shaffer. Do you have any opening comments? I do mr bale, but I would like to.

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Ask if we should take the oath? Yes before we get started. Thank you miss schaefer. So if you plan.

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On testifying today or asking questions of of the applicant, could you please stand and take the oath.

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If, in doubt, just just go ahead, okay raise your right hand. Please.

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Do you swear affirm under the penalties of perjury the testimony you were about.

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To give is the whole truth and nothing, but the truth very good. You can be seated.

D

Okay, miss miller good morning, mr chair members of the board kelly shaffer miller, 73 east main.

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Street westminster maryland 21157, I'm their representatives, mr gene robertson, present and.

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Seated to my left, um as you heard, introduced from the file by mr dixon, the request before you today.

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Is for a contractor's equipment, storage yard and an area variants and a few distance variances from.

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The distance requirements of the code- you may or may not be familiar with evapco and its existing.

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Location in tawny, town evapco does have, and the testimony you will hear today is that evapco does.

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Have an existing headquarter office building as well as manufacturing, building located within.

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Tawny town presently right now, this property that we are here for you today for is located within.

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Carroll county: it is right on the border of the corporate limits for the city of tawny town, which.

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Is why, through mr dixon's introduction of the file, a lot of the information you heard was actually.

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Related to the city of tawny town, because this property is within the designated growth area and.

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Is shown on tawny, town's, comprehensive plan, even though it's currently located within the county.

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um This is the request before you, and all of the testimony you will hear today is that this is a.

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Relatively limited contractors, equipment storage yard from some that you've seen.

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There's no proposed improvements before you today. This is just an outdoor storage.

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Yard for fully manufactured units from evapco, and you will hear all of the testimony that.

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Supports the variance requests before you as well today, so with that, I will call my.

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First, witness I would call mr gene robertson gene. Can you please state your name, spelling.

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Your last name and your address for the record uh gene robertson, r-o-b-e-r-t-s-o-n.

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And addresses 90 e summit drive littlestown pennsylvania, 17340.

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Gene you heard my opening statement. Is it accurate that you were here today as a representative for.

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Evapco, yes, and can you generally explain to the board what your position at evapco is and also.

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What evapco does sure I am the corporate traffic manager for evapco? I have global.

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Oversight of all of our traffic movement evapco is a global manufacturer of heat transfer equipment.

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And we are headquarters in taneytown maryland, along with our r d research labs.

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And you heard in my opening statement also that evapco has applied for a conditional.

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Use for a contractor's equipment, storage, yard and area variants and a few distance.

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Variances is that accurate to the best of your knowledge? Yes,.

C

Is it correct that evapco currently owns the property that has been applied for here today?.

E

Yes, and can you tell us where you spoke about the existing evapco headquarters? Where is that located.

E

uh The headquarters is located at 5151 allendale lane in taneytown and is that.

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Adjacent to the property that we're discussing today, yes, I am going to put in front of you.

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Can unclip that one.

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G

Thank you pretty tall.

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I have just handed everyone a copy of a packet of the exhibits that I intend to.

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Enter throughout the hearing today for ease, I have provided them to you in a packet, but.

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We will individually reference them and ask that they be entered through testimony.

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So, mr robertson, you are looking at. Applicants exhibit one.

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Is that a google aerial showing the site proposed here today and the existing evapco headquarters.

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Yes, does that appear to be accurate to the best of your knowledge? Yes, so can you try to describe.

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Where the evapco headquarters is and how we could find it if we were looking at this google aerial.

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Evapo headquarters, so it is just to the north east of the proposed site, where the star is.

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Kind of left center is the headquarters. It is the larger capitalized evapco that is.

E

Where the headquarters is- and you say across the street from that on 194 there's another evap car.

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That's another manufacturing facility. We have there on francis scott key highway and both.

C

The headquarters and the other manufacturing facility you just spoke to are they kind of.

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Indicated by a little red pin points on that google aerial. Yes, I would like to ask that at.

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That the aerial be entered as applicants exhibit one and we'll accept that into evidence. Thank you.

C

And are you aware of approximately how long evapco has owned the property that we're discussing here.

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Today, yes, it was purchased in september of 2021. and are you familiar with the site that we're.

C

Discussing today I am so what you have in front of you has been marked, as applicants exhibit.

C

Now I'm gonna have you walk us through, because this is you'll note that this exhibit is five.

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Pages, so can you start with page one and explain to us what that shows so page one shows the north.

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View looking looking north on krauss mill road from the right hand, side so looking towards.

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The city of taneytown, impossible road and just to put everything in perspective, can you tell us.

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If we were referencing the plan that was submitted with this application, can you.

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Tell us approximately where that photo was taken from we were standing. Let's see.

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Allendale cross mill.

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There's the houses it would be guessing in this area here. Am I right or is it no? It's right here.

C

So would you say approximately across from the residence um at 2680 kraus mill road? Yes, okay,.

C

Okay, can I ask you to turn to page two of that exhibit please.

C

Can you explain what that shows, so uh this is looking east of the same piece of parcel that.

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Photo one was taken from an east view, and this would be the proposed area for the storage yard.

C

C

Go through this we're just going to go through the same exercise three more times, so this is on the same side of the road. The same parcel different view.

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Looking south of that same parcel that we're talking about as a storage, okay or next page.

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So this is a shot that is looking north on krausmore road. That is.

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Across the residence that you just spoke about of the proposed site: okay, age, five.

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And that that is a shot, looking cell phone crouse mill from the perspective.

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Area that we're talking about looking southbound, showing the uh the roadway and the the open view.

C

Mr robertson, to the best of your knowledge, were those photographs taken using any kind.

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Of zoom lens no, and do they accurately depict the property to the best of your.

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Knowledge, yes, I would like to ask that applicants exhibit 2, which is pages one.

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Through five be entered, as exhibit two, we will accept those into evidence. Thank you.

C

Mr robertson, I'd like you to walk this board through what you intend to use this yard for.

C

Can you just explain to the board and everyone in this room here today what.

C

Will happen in this contractor area? You heard me in my opening statement, described that there are.

C

No proposed buildings, as that accurate, that's correct. So if you could just please walk the.

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Board through what will happen, that's not good. uh We. um We have uh we're fortunate enough to.

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Be awarded some very, very large projects uh here uh in the states uh and with that.

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Came a very demanding delivery timeline from our customer. uh So in order to achieve that.

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We have ramped up manufacturing much earlier than we normally do in order to build finished product.

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um Unfortunately, we don't have on our current location. We do not have the available storage.

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For all the equipment that we're talking for these large projects to be stored on site.

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And that's what this storage yard that we're requesting would be used for for um for our.

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Finished product uh would be stored up there. Is it accurate to say that only the finished units.

C

And finished equipment will be stored on this site. That's correct! Now! You are looking at apple. What's.

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Been marked, as applicants exhibit three, which is three pages, a series of three pages. I'd, like you.

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To walk us through what each of those shows please absolutely. I thought it was important for everyone.

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To see what our proposed uh storage equip the equipment that we're talking about, storing what.

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It looks like uh page one, so the storage equipment, the the it consists of two pieces to make up one.

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Unit there is a lower section which you see in page one, that is the lower half of the equipment.

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um So this is uh primarily um all steel fabrication, whether it's aluminum stainless steel.

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That sort of thing uh piece of equipment that is currently just about completed in our factory.

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Page two is the upper section.

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That would that would out in the field at the job site sit on top of page one. That is.

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The upper section with the fans and control panel and everything so we would be looking at storing.

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Page one and page two repeatedly many many page one and many page, two uh in this storage yard.

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And then lastly is page: three: um we would be required once complete manufacturing at.

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Our 2910 location, we would load our truck inside with an overhead crane.

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And deliver up to our storage yard and our plan is to take the piece of equipment exhibit three.

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Page three that gantry crane that we own we would take that up there and we would.

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Actually have that stationed up there to be able to unload and reload our equipment.

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Thank you. I would like to ask that applicants exhibit three pages. One.

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Through three be entered and we'll accept that into evidence. Thank you.

C

Mr robertson, approximately, how long would a finished unit be stored at the site proposed today.

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I would say that on average a finished piece for equipment could sit there for three to four months.

C

And you spoke you kind of alluded to this, but let me explicitly ask you: do you need this.

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Storage area that you're requesting uh to store ordered units, or is this an anticipated need.

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Sort of situation everything we manufacture is sold equipment, so the units that will be.

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Stored here have been ordered and are just waiting for transport. Is that accurate? Yes,.

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And these can sit out under the elements. Is that also accurate? That's correct I set out and their.

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Entire life they set out in the elements now you talked about it, but let's get into more specifics.

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Explain how these units will get from where they're manufactured to the site? Sure, uh as I.

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Mentioned earlier, we'll be loading the finished sections lowers and uppers in the same fashion,.

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Within our 2910 manufacturing location onto a trailer that is evap group, it will be evapco owned.

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It will be evapco, employee, driving the equipment up to our storage.

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And um this equipment is just under 12 wide, but it's over dimensional, so all permitting.

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State permitting is required. We would have a blanket permit for the equipment that we move.

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Up to the storage lot and would be unloaded by that gantry crane um when the time to ship it.

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Out, I do have contractor trucks through evapco that would be hauling that equipment and they.

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um Have to have a permit in order to haul this equipment so so that to get all the states.

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Permitted from which includes their route from state to state, so is it a fair representation to.

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Say that evapco coordinates and handles all of the hauling to and from this site. That's.

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Correct evapco has ownership of the equipment until we get to our final destination and at a.

C

Maximum, how many trips to and from the site do you think evapco would need to make in a day.

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I don't see at our max peak, I would say, maybe six to eight trips a day.

C

On average, what would you say average a day.

E

Two, maybe three.

C

Had another thought- and I just lost it, so uh you explained that all of the trucks are.

C

Subject to state permits is that something that you've already explored and confirmed.

C

What's necessary and confirmed that this route is eligible for that that permitting, yes, I've reached.

E

Out a few weeks ago to the lady at um maryland, state transportation and the trucks that come.

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To this site and then leave the site, are they able to turn around in the area? That's proposed.

E

Yes, so they will turn around on the site in the area proposed correct, that's correct, okay,.

C

Now could those size trucks make that turning movement in a one acre area with also stored.

C

Units no okay- and you explain the approximate hours and days of week that you anticipate this.

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Site needing to be accessed sure, so it would be primarily monday through friday, 7 a.m to 6 p.m.

E

Would not be any earlier and would not be any later, because for over dimensional.

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Permits sunrise and sunset anyway, so we're limited to that plus. That's all we would do.

E

With the occasional saturday, which would be rare, but that would be occasional, okay and within.

C

Those hours and days you just described that ties back to your statement about.

C

Two to six trips a day, correct, yes, okay, so it would be within the hour.

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Range, that's when those trips would be occurring. Correct, that's correct!.

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Will there be any employees stationed permanently at the site or anybody working from this site? No.

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Do you anticipate needing any kind of signage for the requested area.

H

No, do you anticipate needing or wanting any lighting of this area, no.

C

Can you explain to me a little well explain to the board because you've already explained to.

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Me a little bit about what went into your thought process in picking this location on the property.

C

For this request, certainly um uh driving down kraus mill surveying both sides of the road. The.

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Property on both sides um there are the site, that's proposed, that's on the left hand, side.

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On crouse mill made sense because the right hand, side of kraus mill, has the utility poles.

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Running down the length of kraus mill and those are not, um there are more rural height than they.

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Are for commercial height so that kind of deterred from the right hand, side of the property and the.

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Left hand saw the property also, I thought kind of made sense with traffic that would go in or.

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Out of that site, there's a clear vision uh from the left and there's also a very clear.

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Vision to the right that uh anyone any traffic could see each other. There were no blind spots.

C

Now I'm gonna pull up this plan that was submitted with the application again. Just so you've got it.

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In front of you all right, so here's our site um is there any screening proposed or that evapco.

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Plans to do as part of this yard area, so we would be putting up a security fence around the storage.

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Yard and then we would also um open and entertain all landscaping, trees, shrubs brushes. That would be.

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To keep it looking in a professional manner, so there's planned landscaping and.

C

Room for additional landscaping as needed, correct, that's, correct. Okay,.

C

These are my only questions of mr robertson's. Testimony.

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Okay, anyone in the audience have any questions of mr robertson's testimony all right there, I'm.

C

Gonna: stick the plan right on the center table that way in case anybody. It's helpful to anyone.

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To be able to look at it, okay, that'll be fine, so go to the microphone and please state your name.

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Address and occupation and spell for the record your last name so go ahead. Whoever wants to go.

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Eric helm, h-e-l-m-2745, crouse mill, road, I'm a retired police officer.

I

I would just like clarification on the landscaping use. Are we talking.

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Mature trees that will instantly give us some visual coverage or saplings.

C

That's probably a question better directed at our engineer, jim mathias, because he's the one.

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Who will testify about the specifics there? So I'm happy to call him now to answer that or if.

C

We just want to circle back. Can we come back to that? Mr helm? Yes, sir. Okay, very good, thank.

C

You it's definitely just and if you have any questions of of him, go ahead right now. Well, the.

I

Hours of operation, I ask this and the concerns of having a nine and eight-year-old to catch the bus.

I

Would it be feasible to during school years, try and limit the truck traffic for a 10 to.

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15 minute window in the morning and the afternoon during those bus stop times.

I

We're talking, maybe 7 30 to 7 40 a.m and 3 30 to 3 45 pm, sir.

D

Mr robertson, that is, we have a lot of concerns with the traffic we get from lehigh dump trucks.

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And tractor trailers that come through I I can't say that I won't have a truck there at that time.

E

But we would definitely be sensitive to those times and and try our best to keep it within.

E

That window of what you're talking about yeah, sir, so we would definitely try our best to do that.

I

Thank you, sir, and did I understand correctly on lighting that was a definitive no.

I

That's correct. Thank you, sir. That's all I had, sir thank you. Okay and mr helm,.

A

We'll we'll follow up on your question when mr matthias, after his testimony. Thank you, sir okay.

A

Go ahead, go to the microphone name. Address occupation spell for the record. Your last.

A

Name: stephen garner g-a-r-n-e-r, 2725, crouse mill, road retired engineer.

J

uh The pictures you've abco took were very nice. However, they fail to show residential property.

J

Right next to them seemed to be an intentional thing, but I just wanted to point that out.

A

Yeah and- and it's noted on, I mean because we're looking at variances and if you want to, I don't.

A

Know if you've seen the plan, but but they are um they're delineated on the plan. Okay, uh I'm.

J

Concerned about the small county road that these large oversized trucks are going to be.

J

One on a good day, I have trouble getting my pickup truck across to the krauss mill road.

J

It's a very dangerous intersection and, as these oversized oversized trucks go up, this.

J

Road there are phone poles on one side as, as I indicated, there's no way they can travel up. This.

J

Road without crossing the yellow line, so I'm interested in knowing what kind of caravan is.

J

Going to be, is it going to be trucks in front trucks behind to uh for the safety of others.

J

That's my question. Okay, mr robertson, you want to respond.

F

uh So go ahead and speak to us that way: you're in the market, sure absolutely uh so so he would.

E

Be correct when the trucks are turning on the krausmore road, they would cross over the line.

E

And obviously, in order to get into their lane, um I'm sure that we can do our best as far as.

E

The easement uh to to eliminate that as much as possible, uh but being a wide load that is.

E

A possibility but traveling but traveling the rest of krausmore road. Those trucks should be.

E

Able to stay within the lines as they do the rest of the travel throughout their route.

A

Okay, any other questions of mr robertson's testimony. Okay, name address occupation spell for.

A

The record your last name, john hoover, 27 hoover h-o-v-e-r, that's john 27, 29, kraus mill road, wait a.

A

Minute wait a minute: did you take the oath, sir? I'm sorry did you stand up and take the oath. You take.

K

It I'm sorry I didn't I I didn't think I was going to have any questions. Okay, so before before you.

A

Can give any testimony? Thank you, sir. uh I'm sorry and that's okay. You changed your mind. That's fine!.

A

um Please raise your right hand, do you swear or affirm, under the penalties of perjury, that the.

A

Testimony you're about to give is the truth. The whole truth is nothing but the truth. I do very.

A

Good. Thank you. Thank you. John hoover, h-o-o-v-e-r 2729, crouse mill, road occupation, communications.

K

I have concerns about the equipment. Is it charged equipment.

K

Is it what's the hazards of this equipment, that's going to be sitting in that lot.

E

If you're, referring to our gantry crane, uh it is run off of propane. Okay, as it covered.

E

It is not okay, so we got, we have approximately three acres of land and this big lightning rod.

K

Sitting in the middle of a lot, what do we do to protect it if it gets hit.

E

I believe well, this. This has rubber wheels like a vehicle, and I believe that it may.

E

Be grounded like a vehicle, so the equipment sitting in the lot is going to be grounded.

K

To the ground you're going to have ground rods all over the place on each piece of equipment.

K

Hypothetically, it gets hit by lightning it's a lot of metal sitting in the middle of three acres.

K

What do we do as far as I'm one house away from that lot? What do we do for the.

K

Area for the people and, what's in this unit, that's hazardous that could affect all of us.

E

Sir, I don't know of anything, that's hazardous, that we would be putting there. That's any more.

E

Different than lightning hitting a tree in the forest there, uh the only thing we're.

E

Putting there is a fence, crush and run stone, and this gantry crane run by propane tank.

K

Right are they charged recharged units.

E

They are pre-charged with the shuttle valve.

K

Okay, so, if they're hit by lightning something could happen, propane explodes.

C

Nicole, I understand, I think, mr robertson, all right we'll go to another question. Second thing is.

K

um Concerning this road, this road is not made for oversized trucks.

K

We're going to have trucks sitting there, the hours of operation is seven to six.

K

Where the pictures look to me in the units that I've seen them they're oversized trucks, they're.

K

Going to be oversized trucks, that means they're going to be a caravan. That means these trucks will.

K

Be sitting there idle, let me interrupt you. What you've done is just give testimony. Do you have.

A

Any more questions of mr robertson, I guarantee you you'll, be able to give testimony a little bit.

A

Later in the process, okay, all right! Thank you. Okay, any other questions of mr robertson's testimony.

A

Board members, mr caldwell good morning, mr robertson, good morning.

G

um I have a question about the.

G

um The route to be used to reach the yard, could you explain how the trucks will get to this yard.

E

Yes, sir, so the route would be leaving our 2910 francis scott key highway location.

E

Turning right onto 194 south hold on mr robertson, I'm going to back you up real, quick just so.

C

Everybody can follow along the location that the starting point is the location. Is the evalco.

C

Location across francis scott key highway, correct, that's correct! Okay, so then proceed forward with.

C

Turning right from there, sorry, no problem, sorry about that. uh Turning right onto 194 south.

E

And bearing left onto krausmore road and then turning left into the proposed site. Okay, thank you.

G

I don't believe there are any traffic lights along. That section. Is that correct? That's correct.

G

um How long would it take you to get from.

G

The manufacturing location you just described to the yard approximately five minutes, five minutes.

G

And you'd mentioned the um the hours are 7 a.m to 6 p.m, but that's probably only realistic during.

G

Summer time, correct: yes, if you're a limited by transportation, rules to daylight hours,.

G

That's correct, so the wintertime hours are going to be much later in the morning and.

G

Earlier in the afternoon, is that correct? That is correct.

G

What kind of security will you have at the site? A fence? Is that fence locked? Yes,.

G

You mentioned here that this site was to be to deal with it. Large orders that had just have.

G

Come in or in the process of manufacturing is that right, that's correct! Does that represent.

G

A full-time bump up in evapco's business model or a business of manufacturing, evaporators or.

G

Is this a peak and then it goes down, sir? We're hoping this is the norm. Moving is the norm. Okay,.

G

um So the you said, the property was purchased in september of 19 of uh 2021.

G

um Was that an anticipation of uh growth of the business.

E

G

um One other question looking at looking along at the um other exhibits, uh exhibit six.

G

um Will the traffic engineer be able to or site designer be able to discuss the potential.

G

Bypass road that appears to go through the property.

C

We will address that if there are questions mr caldwell, those um I I will, I'm going.

C

To make a note to ask mr matthias a brief question on that during his testimony? Okay,.

G

Okay, last question was related to, um I believe mr hoover's question about the units being charged.

G

um When the the charging of uh refrigerant be done, when the units are assembled,.

E

Charging of the units there is a very low charge within the equipment we're talking.

E

About storing to keep the inside of the coils water freeze, so it is it's 10 psi.

E

Very low that's the norm that we ship all of our coiled products to their destination.

E

They maintain that very, very low charge. Is that charge just simply errors, it actually refrigerant.

E

uh uh That is a great question. I'm I'm not 100 certain on that answer.

E

I could find that answer out for you, okay, thank you. No further questions.

G

Board numbers one quick question: if I may, I assume that the the lot the storage area will.

L

Not be lighted or will be lighted, it will not be. I look forward to hearing about the screening so.

A

Is there? Is there any plans for evapco to uh become part of the town limits on it's in the.

A

Future growth area is there any plans for evapco to eventually be part of the incorporated town.

C

There's no plans now but, as you noted, it is within the municipal growth area. So it's always.

C

A conversation of potential annexation, but no okay and I'm assuming mr matthias, will address the area.

A

Of disturbance, um [music] so that's that's all I have anybody else. Okay, thank you, mr robertson.

A

Thank you, ms miller, would you like to call your next witness? Yes, I was next call, mr jim mathias.

C

C

Mr mathias, can you please state your name, spelling your last name and your address for the record.

M

James mathias m-a-t-h-I-a-s-192 east main street westminster maryland.

C

Work, I am a principal with development design consultants, mr matthias, has testified in front of.

C

This board and throughout the county as an expert in previous cases and hearings. So I would I do.

C

Intend to ask that he be qualified as an expert unless this board wants me to go through the.

A

No in what fields is, are you going to request? I am going to ask that he be qualified as an expert in.

C

The area of land use planning and site design, okay, we'll we will accept that and seeing his.

A

Credentials many times before. Thank you. Thank you, mr mathias. Have you been present throughout this.

C

Entire hearing today I have, and did you hear all of mr robertson's testimony I did were you asked.

C

To prepare a drawing to accompany this application, yes- and are you in preparing that and previous to.

C

Preparing that have you also become familiar with the existing evapco's headquarter headquarters and.

C

The site across 194.- yes, we've done some work for evapco on their existing facility on the.

M

um On the south side of 194- and we were actually the site designers for the facility on the north.

M

Side of 194. and in preparing the drawing that accompanied this application, can you give the.

C

Board a summary as to what you were looking at and what you've analyzed for the property. Certainly.

M

um The property is actually comprised of actually of two parcels.

M

That being bisected or or cut off by the maryland midland railroad, there's about 24.

M

Acres on the south side, the piece to the north of the railroad is approximately 54 acres and.

M

It's obviously bisected by kraus mill road and there are other residential properties that.

M

Exist in the center of the uh of the property, there were several things we looked at when.

M

We worked with evapco to select this site. What isn't shown on our exhibit is that running north.

M

To south along the common property line with the existing vapco facility and this property.

M

Is a significant stream and with that a 100 year, flood plain and then throughout the site there.

M

Is a wetlands area that runs along the frontage without a crouse mill road and then runs on the.

M

East side, I'm sorry on the west side of kraus mill road and runs up to maryland 194.. So there.

M

There is really limited: there was limited area on the property. To cite something of this major.

C

And can you tell us what the zoning is of the subject property? It's agriculture and.

C

Was I accurate in my opening statement when I summarized that this property is.

C

Right on the municipal boundary for the city of tawny town, yes,.

C

So the zoning, when we're looking at the zoning of adjacent property, were.

C

In many cases, looking at zoning within the city of tontitown is that accurate all right, I am going.

C

To show you, applicants exhibit for or what has been marked as applicants exhibits. Four and five.

C

um Going first to applicants exhibit four: is that a capture of the county's gis zoning map? It is and.

C

Does that star depict approximately where the proposed site is it does to the best of your.

C

Knowledge is that an accurate representation of the county zoning district that this property is.

C

In yes, now turning to applicants exhibit five. Is it accurate that that is a copy of the town or the.

C

City of tawny, town zoning map, it is and again does that star indicate the subject property. It does.

C

And can you tell us what that pink color on this? um This zoning map indicates on the towns map. Yes,.

M

That is uh industrial, restricted, okay, so to the e of this property um within the municipal area, that.

C

Property is zoned industrial. Is that correct correct? I would like to ask that applicants.

C

Exhibits four and five be entered, please, okay and we will accept those into evidence. Thank you, mr.

C

Mathias, can you tell us the acreage of this site? I think you just walked us through the bisected.

M

Nature of it, but 54.2 acres is to the north of the railroad and 24.5 acres south of the railroad.

C

And mr robertson discussed this the traffic in detail, but can you explain just confirm.

C

How this site will be accessed or how this the proposed yard will be accessed.

C

Yeah, there's a an access drive immediately opposite the existing driveway. For that one.

M

Residential property to the west trucks will turn in and out of that access drive.

C

And that access drive accesses onto kraus mill road is that accurate it does? It is kraus mill.

C

Road, a county, owned and maintained road- yes- and you heard mr robertson's testimony that the trucks.

C

Will access cross mill road from route 194? Is that is route 194 a state-owned and maintained road? Yes,.

C

Do you believe that both of those are capable of handling the traffic that you've heard testify.

C

To here today I do now. You are aware that the applicant has requested several variances as.

C

Part of this application correct correct: are you familiar with the variance standard listed within.

C

Our county code, and also enumerated within maryland case law- I am so you just spoke to.

C

The surrounding zoning of the area, if you will some being within the county and some being.

C

Within the city of tawny town, is it accurate that to the east of this it's surrounded by industrial.

C

Zoned property, yes- and you also you kind of jump the gun on my question here, but is it accurate.

C

That this property itself is bisected by kraus mill road. Yes, so it might not be 100 clear on.

C

The plans or on the maps that everybody's looking at as to where the actual property lines here are.

C

So I'm going to ask you jim: can you take that up there and point out what is evapco owned to.

C

The board, please certainly well, I shouldn't say about going: what is a part of the subject: property.

A

N

Taking out these residential properties, and then mrs parsons parcel 2, is that that goes over to.

A

Almost romanian road do that again, I'm sorry, okay, starting this is right person, one okay,.

N

And then again, taking these taking these out. Okay, so they're, surrounded, yeah, see see this.

A

Is this is the house? This is the last thing. That's the house when we drove in.

A

We we made the loop in into the driveway. The house is right here and then there's another.

N

And this is, and- and this is the rail this is the railway sure- correct, okay, gotcha, okay,.

G

I'll have to wait until you're done. I've got. I have questions, but.

G

As far as the property limits everybody's okay- yes, I understand.

C

C

So, mr matthias, is it accurate that this property is both bisected by kraus mill, road and by the.

C

Maryland midway, it is, it is okay, now, to your knowledge, is this property part of the tawny.

C

Town comprehensive plan- yes, um and are you aware of what the land use designation is on the tawny.

C

Town comprehensive plan for this property- yes, I'm showing you what's marked, what's been marked.

C

As applicants exhibit six is that a copy of the future land use designations on that city of tawny.

C

Town comprehensive plan, the best of my knowledge yes, does that star on there indicate the subject.

C

Property, yes, can you tell us what the future land use designation of that property is on the tawny.

C

Town comprehensive plan, industrial, okay and let me jump real quick because I believe you heard a.

C

Question from the board a little bit earlier on about some of the planned streets and roadways.

C

That are shown on the comprehensive plan uh to the best of your knowledge. Do any of those planned.

C

Streets impact what's being proposed here today: no, no and and there's actually, I there's actually an.

M

Alternate route that um isn't shown on this plan but is shown on the town's transportation plan.

M

That also limited our ability to look at citing this on the west side of kraus mill. Road.

C

Station to ensure that there is no impact there to planned roadways is.

C

That a conversation that you have had with uh the town with the city of tawny town, yes.

C

And that's also reflected in the comment letter that you heard mr dixon introduce at the beginning.

C

Where the town expressed their support for this correct correct, I would like to ask.

C

That applicants exhibit 6 be entered. If I can't recall, we will accept that into evidence. Thank you.

C

Can you you started talking about some of the environmental constraints on the property, jim.

C

Can you explain uh just go into those a little bit more about what constraints this property.

C

Is subject to sure, as I mentioned running north, the south along the easternmost property line.

M

There is a is a stream and it establishes a 100 year, flood plain from francis scott key.

M

194 to the maryland midland railroad, it also establishes a county, regulated stream buffer.

N

Yeah I have that with me. Thank you.

M

um I know it's not really germane to this, the property that we're looking at referring to the.

M

Property on the north side is parcel one and property on the south side of the railroad.

M

Parcel too, but almost the entirety of the property parcel 2 is encumbered with the 100 year. Flood.

M

Plain the culvert that crosses that railroad and the railroad ballast establishes a berm.

M

Which basically has widened that floodplain on the south side, so that most of that property is.

M

Virtually unusable and even access to the part that is is very difficult.

M

On the north side, we talked about the floodplain along the easternmost and the stream buffer along.

M

The easternmost property line in front of our and immediately in front of this, our site for.

M

The contractor storage yard, the roadside, ditch, has established a wetlands and also there is a.

M

Regulated stream buffer there, we are aware that the next, uh if we're successful at this hearing,.

M

The next phase of this the site plan process we will need to address those variances with both.

M

The county and the state that wetland and stream buffer extends to the west side of krause cross.

M

Mill road and to the north, it consumes most if most of the usable area of that property.

C

Jim I'm actually going to enter this idea. That's fine and miss schaefer is going to enter this.

M

Please understand that the wetlands have actually been field located um and that the stream buffer.

M

um It it isn't a complete detailed stream buffer. um It was just to get an idea of where, where it.

M

Was in other words, when we submit the drawing to submit it to the county, it will be in more detail.

C

I've marked the drawing and the plan that mr mathias was just referencing as applicants.

C

Exhibit seven and I'm going to ask that that be entered, and we will accept that into evidence.

C

Mr mathias, is it accurate? I think you just spoke to the fact that there are.

C

Is an existing kind of buffer and swath of mature trees around the property? Yes, okay,.

C

The location that's been applied for here today does that minimize the impact or the need to take.

C

Out any of those existing mature trees, there will be no removal of no existing forest areas.

C

Having looked at those the factors that we kind of just talked through and your opinion.

C

Do those factors contribute to the unique and unusual character of this property? Yes,.

C

Now you're aware that there's a few just four distance, variances and one area variance as.

C

Part of this application correct yes, now is it accurate that a contractor's.

C

Equipment, storage yard is a conditional use in the agricultural zoning district. It is.

C

Is there, even if this yard proposed were one acre in size? Is there anywhere where.

C

We could locate that yard on this property that would not require distance variances.

C

Do you believe, in your opinion and having heard all of mr robertson's.

C

Testimony do you believe that there will be any threat to the public's.

C

Safety and welfare with if these variances were granted here today, no.

C

Now, in your opinion, do the requested variances meet the code standard and maryland case law yeah.

C

Have you had in the history of your career? Have you had the opportunity to work on.

C

Other contractors, equipment, storage, yards within carroll, county and the municipalities, uh one other.

C

And in are you aware of more than just one other, yes, okay and generally familiar with them? Yes,.

C

Okay and in comparing the characteristics of the request here today to others in carroll.

C

County, would you say that the requested use here today is more or less intense in nature than other.

C

Contractors- equipment, storage yards. I would say that it would be less in that the number of trips.

M

In and out seem to be spread over a wider range a wider time period, the ones that I'm most familiar.

M

With have intense use usually in the morning and then intense use, usually in the evening.

C

Now, are you familiar and aware of the schultz b, pritz case law.

O

I am do you believe that this case meets the standard of schultz v pritz? I do.

C

Is there anything that you heard testified as part of this hearing your testimony or from you what.

C

You heard from mr robertson: that's that speaks to the effects of this use being above and beyond,.

C

um Any other contractor equipment, storage yard in carroll county no.

C

That concludes my testimony of mr mathias. Okay, anyone have any questions of mr matthias's.

A

Testimony, mr helm, you had a question, was it answered? No, you know what I can. I go back.

C

Because I meant to ask him about landscaping so that we could answer that question I apologize. I.

C

Apologize, that was my oversight. I jotted a note and I overlooked it we'll let you.

A

Call him back. Thank you, mr mathias, um can you speak to the landscaping that's shown on the.

C

Plan, but also what will be required through the county at a minimum yeah. Actually, the.

M

The we're going to be we're going to have to require a certain amount of screening.

M

um We're what we're actually showing, though it's schematic, we've embellished it in that with the.

M

Trees that you see from those photographs, we could actually cut that landscaping down to a.

M

Lower level of screening, I've been advised by vatgo that understanding that there is.

M

Another site plan phase to this process to work with the with the neighbors in the community to.

M

Provide a buffer that would be adequate and and address their concerns. In summary, of that are.

C

You saying that, what's shown on this plan is more than what you believe the code requires.

C

Yes, okay and the landscaping that's shown on this plan is that inside or outside of the.

C

Fence it is outside okay, so if you were standing in the interior of the yard, you would first see.

C

A fence, and then outside of that you would see the landscaping buffer correct. Yes, okay,.

D

Okay, thank you. That concludes my testimony. Obviously, if there are more detailed questions.

C

I have no objection, but I just I did want to get that out there. Thank you, okay. So anyone from the.

A

Audience have any questions and did that address your concerns? Mr helm. Go go to the microphone.

I

Yes, sir, does that could we define adequate please.

I

I that was what I heard you say I just I'm thinking like mature trees. You know shrubs.

I

I just like to understand what adequate means, sir, so our what we would first do is comply with the.

M

County's landscaping requirement for screening and then, above and beyond that, we would work with.

M

You and your neighbors to provide additional landscaping to meet your concerns. Now I will.

M

Say this, the the buffer that we've shown as a as the class d buffer is above and beyond on.

M

The north side, what would typically be required, I'm sure, you're talking into this okay, I'm sorry.

M

um And I know you had a question about nursery nursery stock. um We would install according.

M

To carroll county requirements it they are not installed at maturity. There is a growing period.

I

Thank you, sir. This is new to me. Where can I find the definition.

I

Of what a class d buffer is is that in the planning and zoning website, somewhere or.

I

Let mr mathias answer that and um mr matthias I'm gonna, I'm gonna rely on your expertise.

A

Here and- and uh please don't sugarcoat it, I will not. If you go to the county's website,.

M

Under land and resource management.

M

um You can find under their programs, uh you will see landscaping and the county's landscaping.

M

Manual is available, mr mathias, who is a staff person to contact jonathan bowman, okay, jonathan.

M

Bowman b-o-w-m-a-n and the staff listing is also in that section of the county's website.

A

K

um As far as they said, um minimum uh trips from the yard to the holding facility.

K

Are they oversized trucks? Every time? Is there going to be a lead car with.

K

Lights, blinking six times a day holding up traffic.

K

um I'm pretty sure it's always going to be an oversized truck and that's a mr robertson.

A

uh Question, mr robertson, could you come to the microphone and answer that for us please.

A

And identify yourself for the record again: uh gene robertson, uh evapco uh r-o-b-e-r-t-s-o-n, uh so to.

E

Answer your question: uh the vast majority will be over dimensional, but over dimensional uh has.

E

Different layers and what the requirements are for that uh in the state of maryland, less than.

E

12 foot does not need an escort. uh What we're talking about moving is 11 foot um 11 and a.

E

Half feet wide, so there will not be any lights, any escorts of that nature. It would just be the trucks.

E

With their wide load, banners on front and back height, wise, we're talking height as well. I did a.

E

A pole car route to ensure the height would be clear, especially the entry onto kraus mill.

E

Road from 194- and we are definitely well within the height requirement. There was.

E

Easily 13 6 for legal heights, uh we're we're well within that at nature and while I'm up.

E

Here, if you don't mind uh the gentleman on the board asked about, and someone else asked about.

E

The low charge within the evapco equipment- it is nitrogen, it's a low charge, nitrogen about 12 psi.

E

That is in the evapco equipment that is stored so, and that is to keep condensation.

E

From and rusting from within the equipment, so thank you, mr robertson. Any other questions.

A

Board members, mr caldwell good morning miss mathias morning.

G

um I have a question about the um the location of these, the storage yard and looking at the.

G

Exhibit seven? uh Oh sorry, thank you just a quick question. There are red marks on.

G

The coming down the, I would say it's the um we're looking north here on this map.

G

This is where there's a single property on that side of cross mill road opposite the conditional.

G

Use area yes, now, on that the exhibit seven there were red lines. Does that represent the.

G

Flood plain area, no, sir, that represents what again we did a very preliminary stream buffer.

M

Analysis, so that's screen buffer, yes, sir, so in the case of extreme weather that could be flooded.

M

It would be saturated, I don't believe it would be. I don't believe it would be flying flooded.

G

But it would render use of any of that area uh difficult for storing metallic equipment and.

M

Really, that's why we have it set back, as you can see it, it set further back from where the stream.

M

Buffer- but you don't see it on that plan, but the access drive goes through that area and then the.

M

Contractor storage yard is behind it, okay, so I'm just trying to figure out the the reason.

G

The the conditional use areas is in one corner, but I've explained it that you've got wetlands.

G

um Across the the northern portion, which you're going to have to address any disturbance of that.

G

Based on the location of this conditional use area, it doesn't appear to be any disturbance.

G

Of wetlands, not for the yard itself, not for the artist the access drive there.

G

Will be, it will be and that that has to be addressed and no sir, yes, sir another place.

G

uh Concerning the screening requirement around the the um the facility, does that also does the.

G

Reference uh was it section d or whatever. It is code for screening requirements. I believe.

M

It's a class class d, I'm sorry, it's a class d and that is yeah. That is a landscaping that.

M

Would be required for this, based on with those trees that are located along that side, we could.

M

Cut it back to a lower landscape screen, but we we proposed a a more intense landscape buffer. There.

M

um To that adjacent property, okay- and you can see it wraps around the front- to match what.

M

Would be facing the residents on the other side of the street? Okay, which is uh more beneficial.

G

To the the residents, is it the the city, screening requirements or the county? I believe the counties.

M

Would be the county, the county were actually reviews on behalf of the city. Okay, thank you.

D

Okay and this actually, I think I need a second play. The apple, I think actually.

L

Mr robertson would answer this question. The question I have is why three acres.

L

Why not one? Why not five? Why not eight? Why not I'm asking I'm trying to understand why three.

L

Acres is what's being proposed as a rational basis behind it.

F

I think that is yeah. I was given yeah. We originally started with one and as they started.

M

Looking at the movement of the trucks and the amount of storage that they were going to need, the.

M

One acre was clearly not sufficient, but I I let mr robertson, if you have anything to add to what.

C

Jim just said: uh gene robertson, r-o-b-e-r-t-s-o-n. I don't have a whole lot more to add. uh One acre.

E

Does not give us the amount of space required for the um for the size of the equipment and also for.

E

Trucks to be able to uh load via the gantry crane and turn around successfully to move.

E

Out three acres gives us that that ability to be able to confine everything within that that space.

L

Understood and if you were to look at this site as three acres, basically the largest site, the largest.

L

Space you could locate. That would be. That would work uh within the uh engineering of the site.

L

Is that, like the maximum size.

L

That you could that you could get in there. I think we could go larger, actually.

L

Okay, that's my question. Thank you. Any other questions very good. Thank you, mr mathias.

A

Ms miller, do you have another? That concludes my testimony. Unless there are any additional.

C

Questions that anyone has where it would make sense to recall someone. Thank you. Okay. Okay, now.

A

As promised to anyone in the audience, this is the opportunity for you to go to the microphone and.

A

For you to go ahead and make your comments about the case, testimony uh remain at the microphone so.

A

Ms miller can ask you questions, you have your testimony and then the board will have the.

A

Opportunity to ask questions of your testimony so there's the microphone. How about it guys.

A

Mr helm, thank you, sir. I appreciate the the good hand that evapco is seems to be offering and being.

I

A good neighbor. I also appreciate the board's questions as well. It's been enlightening to me.

I

I I don't know if the board has been through that area in depth. We do have a amish farm about a mile.

I

Or so up the road, and it seems they host church once a month to every six weeks and there's a lot.

I

Of buggy traffic through that on on that sunday and knowing that the weekends would be maybe an.

I

Occasional use- I just feel that's worth noting that we do have those neighbors. We do have that.

I

Traffic, and that also entails I've, seen a lot of their youngsters come by on some kind of scooter.

I

Something or other so we do have that through as well. It's also a heavily bicycled area, especially.

I

On saturday, it is not uncommon for my family to see a lot of bicycles at times. Organized events.

I

At other times I I would speculate we're on some kind of map or trail just based on the.

I

Amount of, and I'm talking like, like cyclists, decked out in gear, not just your casual kid.

I

Riding around or someone pedaling a little bit, they at least present themselves as looking like.

I

It's a significant undertaking- um and I I did want to note as well the the bus stop.

I

Hours through that which- which I appreciate mr robertson's uh willingness to try and be.

I

Attentive to it's just uh and the pictures is uh my neighbor, mr hoover said I believe her. Mr.

I

Gardner, while they're very accurate of the site, I mean that is the site. There's just a couple.

I

Things going on a little further out on either end that I just wanted the board to be aware about.

I

And I appreciate your time and uh and thought processes in this decision making. Thank you, sir.

I

Any questions, ms miller, I do not thank you board members. The only thing I want to say is.

A

I haven't seen you in years- and I was friends with your brother many many years ago, so tell.

I

Us tell scott, I said hi, I sure, will sir you were just a little kid when we were friends.

A

Okay, any any other com, any other testimony. Okay, mr garner.

J

This has been very informative and I appreciate the invitation to come here today.

J

uh I hope the board at some point in time goes out and visits the site.

J

uh We're very fortunate: we live in a in one of the nicest nicest neighborhoods in taneytown area.

J

And to see all this agricultural land around us is just beautiful. I see deer out in the fields.

J

Every day, turkey, in my backyard, it's beautiful, like mr helm, said: there's amish buggies, going up.

J

And down the road almost daily, it's it's a beautiful area to live, and I feel like.

J

Changing this from agriculture to commercial is going to greatly impact the quality of my life.

J

I feel like it's going to devalue my home, so I've got a lot of concerns about about those areas.

J

But thank you for your time, ms miller, any questions of mr hoover or mr gardner's.

A

uh Testimony no thank you, mr gardner board members. Thank you very much any other testimony.

A

A

Okay, no more testimony. uh Presentation of testimony in evidence is now closed and some.

A

Nations are in order, ms miller, good morning. I think we are still mourning. I appreciate the.

C

Opportunity to be here today, I think that, as the board is aware and has conducted the site.

C

Visit a lot of times that speaks volumes as well. I also hope that through mr matthias's, showing of.

C

Where these property lines are, it did depict how unique this property is. It's unusual, at least in.

C

My experience to have a property, that's bisected, twice won by a county, owned and maintained road.

C

And one by a rail line, um I think that the testimonial I would assert to you that the.

C

Testimony that you heard here today does support the variance standard. This property is burdened.

C

Greatly by some environmental features you saw through, applicants exhibit seven and mr caldwell.

C

Asked some specific questions about the stream buffer area. You also heard through mr robertson's.

C

Testimony that the west side of kraus mill road straight across from this exact site, requested.

C

Has power lines that run down that entire side of the road? So, although evapco does own that entire.

C

Portion across the road, all of that is subject would be subject to moving relocating those.

C

Power lines to access that portion and inherently would then create additional disturbance of that.

C

Area which I would assert to you is not in the interest of the community if it can be avoided.

C

um This property is I'll, say also unique because it is within tawny, town's, comprehensive plan.

C

This property has been designated by the city of tawny town as appropriate for future industrial.

C

Use now I understand that we're here before carroll county under carroll, county zoning.

C

Laws, but I do think it's an important note to mention. It was also mentioned in the county's.

C

Planning staff letter that you saw introduced as part of the beginning of the file and you.

C

Also saw a little bit of a description of that in the letter that was introduced by mr dixon.

C

From mr weprecht at the city of tawny town, as well with the town's support of this request,.

C

Practically speaking, I think it's important to look at the requests here today and the.

C

Minimal impact that it is requesting, I hate to use the same word in the same sentence twice.

C

um But this this site, evapco really took into consideration and all of the testimony you heard.

C

Was that part of the reason this specific portion of the site was chosen for this? Is.

C

Because it does minimize the impact to the site, it does not require taking down existing trees.

C

Or any of the existing uh natural buffer that exists out there, a vapco- and I I appreciate.

C

Everyone's involvement here today, I really do we had a really nice opportunity for a conversation.

C

Before the hearing- and everyone has been more than cordial, that has come out in response to.

C

This hearing and I think that that's also a representation of some of their past dealings.

C

With evapco itself, evapco does want to be a good neighbor to everyone in tanitown. They are, as you.

C

Heard mr robertson testify to: they are a global manufacturer with headquarters in tawny, town.

C

The it doesn't really matter to you how unique the business is, but I'll say it, because I think.

C

It is important to this case that this is a unique contractor equipment, storage, yard request. This is.

C

Not your average contractor equipment storage yard that you're seeing come in across carroll.

C

County, this is for a global manufacturer of these hvac heating, cooling units and.

C

So this is because of that we're seeing fully manufactured units being stored on a site and.

C

A few trips a day at most from a site during very controlled hours, we're not seeing 10 workers show.

C

Up on a site load into trucks, load up equipment leave the site. I I would submit to you that in.

C

Contrast to the other contractors, equipment, storage yard cases, you've seen many of which.

C

If not, all of which require some sort of distance variance as well, this is pretty low impact in use.

C

This is um you know, through mr robertson and mr matthias's, testimony that increased.

C

Landscaping buffer that evapco is willing to provide that just speaks a little bit more to.

C

Evapco's willingness and desire to work with the neighbors. They were aware that some of the.

C

Concerns were about lighting, and that is part of the that was taken into consideration and.

C

Deciding that they were not requesting lighting as part of this, they also don't think that they.

C

Need lighting, because this is truly just during the daytime hours, as you heard sunrise to sunset,.

C

So there's no need to have light and it's a concern of the neighbors. If there were.

C

To be light, and so therefore the hard answer no was no, we do not want sight lighting here.

C

We are comfortable, I'm comfortable, offering some conditions. I've spoken with some of the.

C

Neighbors prior to the hearing and heard some of their concerns- and I think it might go a.

C

Long way to answering some concerns to have this board place some specific conditions. If.

C

This board is willing to grant an approval here today, so I would suggest to you some.

C

Of the following as conditions of approval, to satisfy any lingering concerns that there are.

C

One of which is that there be no sight lighting as part of this, one of which be that the hours.

C

Of operation be limited from seven to six monday through friday, with a very occasional saturday.

C

And the third of which I think is pretty clear through testimony. But I would have no problem.

C

Offering it as a condition, which is that there's no manufacturing to be conducted on this site, this.

C

Site is purely for storage. I think that would also eliminate any concerns that that residents have.

C

About any noise on the site or if this site were to be used differently in the future, so.

C

Those are the three conditions, and I I know that this board understands that if those are.

C

Placed on a decision that that is something that the zoning administrator then has the ability to.

C

Enforce- and so I think, with those that is a way to address some of the neighbors concerns.

C

That we have spoken about so with all of that being said, I do think this case clearly meets.

C

The schultz v pritz standard for conditional use for our contractor's equipment storage yard. There.

C

Are minimal trips a day? This is just a storage location. There is no office space. There are no.

C

Restrooms there is no manufacturing, there is no other movement of equipment really. It is truly a.

C

Space where units can be offloaded from a truck using one type of equipment and then loaded back.

C

Onto a truck and transported from the site, all of the traffic testimony you heard today from.

C

Mr robertson and mr mathias are that this site can support and these roads can support those minimal.

C

Trips, as you all know, this will be required to go through a site development plan process. If and.

C

When it is approved by this board, and so all of those explicit criteria will be required to be met,.

C

If you look at the site photos that were presented in evidence, you will see, and you probably did from.

C

Your site visit as well that this location was also chosen because it has good site distance. The.

C

Access point has good site distance, but that will be thoroughly examined through a site development.

C

Plan process and it will have to meet certain criteria in order to be approved through that.

C

Process, so with that, I would request that this board grant the contractors equipment, storage, yard.

C

The area variance and the distance variances that are requested today, like I said the my suggested.

C

Conditions to alleviate some concern concerns would be no lighting monday through friday.

C

Seven to six with an occasional saturday operation during the same hours and no manufacturing on site.

C

Thank you very much. Okay. The hearing and record of this case is now closed in accordance with the.

A

Open meetings act of maryland, the board will now consider the case [applause].

A

Okay, go ahead, I was I was giving mr snyder a hard time and help us look at the way. I.

L

Know mr caldwell, uh thank you, mr chairman. um Thank you very much to everybody for coming out.

G

Here, today, and for giving test money very much appreciated and to help us come to a decision.

G

On this, one thing that was not mentioned by evapco was the use of their existing space.

G

If there's any of that was available for storage of um equipment, but looking at the fact that they.

G

Purchased this seven years ago, with a view for expansion, I presume that the the cost.

G

Of trying to rearrange what they have right now is is far more than the cost of.

G

Building an additional yard, so I'm sure that if they've factored that into their consideration.

G

um The the only other thing I would like to add to this, I think miss schaefer kelly.

G

Quantified, the the conditions, but I'd like to add one about enhancing screening in in.

G

Cooperation with the affected homeowners, I think that needs to be part of the the conditional use.

G

Approval to make sure that their they're happy with the screening that we're not just saying.

G

You know it's going to meet this code requirement, I'd like to um put that into the approval to meet.

G

With and satisfy the homeowner's needs. Okay, it can be done if they can agree on a reasonable.

A

A

I mean because we're looking standard and what I mean, what we're looking at is the conditional use.

A

Request for conditional use and that's really a site plan issue. They've testified to that.

A

um And can we memorialize it in some way that the book, the point is.

L

Say enhance, but by whose standard, what I'm saying is, is it one time yeah and.

A

I mean that's because what arbor it's it's, a only a conditional use for contractor from a storage.

A

Yard so the site plan will address those issues and I understand your concern, mr caldwell, but the.

A

Site plan and what mr bowman will require, um and they said they testified to, and we can't put any.

A

More teeth into it, I don't think uh they testify that they would be working with the community and.

A

Mr matthias testifies that uh the area closest to the homes would have enhanced so we'll go.

A

Beyond the code so again because we're looking at the conditional use that that's a site, that's.

A

Really a site plan, a technical review committee all right well um seeing nods from mr robertson.

G

And mr mathias I'll take that that's their um their willingness to engage with the community to.

G

Satisfy their needs, so um I don't have any other thoughts on this. um I think the boards, the the.

G

The applicant has made their case and uh I'd be willing to approve it. Mr snyder, I'm gonna, I'm.

A

Gonna go ahead of you. Please do take the pressure off of you yeah. Thank you very much uh number one.

A

Contractor storage yard in the ag zone in carroll county is a catch-all I mean it is an absolute.

A

Catch-All from a landscaper that has one pickup truck one trailer and one mower and three weed.

A

Whackers who's got it in his grandmother's barn. That's contractor storage yard. We've seen that.

A

um We've also seen real contractor storage yards um with 10 20 trucks, um heavy equipment we've seen.

A

This is less intensive than other contractor storage yards that we've approved in the county.

A

Having said that, if this was annexed into the town of tony town, this ground would no longer.

A

Be agriculture guys this would be industrial, and I don't know what the process would be.

A

Through tawny town, but they could be a whole lot more intensive than what they're requesting here.

A

Today there was no objection from tawny town; it absolutely meets schultz v pritz because would.

A

This be have more impact at this location than any other ag location in the county.

A

I don't I don't see that as as being an issue, the site flood plain, the the on-site amenities.

A

Dictates the need for the distance variances, so it couldn't be located in another part of.

A

The property uh to avoid the variances required uh from from the residences, and so so therefore,.

A

um It has to go where it is. The new lighting landscaping plan was be of is shown, as is.

A

Above and beyond the county code, there is the sensitivity to the bus, scheduled um and and.

A

You know I would. I would hope that we don't have issues with that and mr helm get their information.

A

Before you leave here today in case, there are issues um if it was in and it was if it was.

A

Xanax, it would be industrially zoned, so they're. The things that I have, mr snyder did. I leave you.

A

Spaces are you still no, no, I'm always speechless when you go first anyway, with that said and again,.

L

Just for the record, I just want to make sure we're clear, because I do read the verbiage and I know.

L

The answer, but I want to ask council one item and that is you can't ask under 158 all this all this.

A

Council, I'm sorry our council, yes, okay, under 158 173, it says contractor equipment. Storage may be.

L

Authorized by conditional use in the agricultural district subject to the following requirements.

L

One, the area which, within which each use is located, shall not be no more than one acre in size.

L

And it says the minimum area of the property on which each use is located shall be five acres now.

L

I believe we can make. We have the ability to make it to basically say we can approve a three acre.

L

One, but the way that's written makes me feel the only authority we have to approve is within those.

L

Parameters, no, you can. You can increase okay. I just want to make sure that we're speaking.

L

The right because I read the verbiage and that's kind of a little iffy the way it's it's written.

L

um Thank you for that. uh On the flip side, I there's several things that influence my.

L

Decision here, one being from all uh living in the county of my entire life, I've always seen the evac.

L

Evapo as a good neighbor uh they're contributed to the to the to the area. They have been a good.

L

Neighbor, I've not heard of any issues with their operations up there negatively impacting uh if.

L

Anything quite the contrary. Secondly, and probably more impacting, is tony town's viewpoint of the use.

L

Of this land and has been identified as ultimately uh possibly being and that if it is ever annexed.

L

And be rezoned and industrial, which would be much more intense than what we're asking for.

L

Here this is, this is very uh subtle: use compared to industrial, uh notwithstanding the traffic and.

L

All that goes with that, uh based on those two items I and the fact that there's no lighting.

L

Which was really a big um issue with me and how that impacts uh the neighborhood uh and then the.

L

Then the enhanced screening that was discussed or the creating a visual barrier to maintain.

L

Somewhat the viewpoint of the agricultural zone from from the road, I would support, proving.

A

The second, I don't think any, I have anything to add. You guys have covered everything.

P

Excellent job, bye, council, okay,.

A

I entertain a motion guys give you one month: okay, in case number 6469 before the board.

G

Of zoning appeals, so the board approve the request for conditional use for a contractors.

G

Equipment. Storage, yard of three acres and multiple variances with the following additional conditions.

G

No psych lighting operation from 7 a.m to 6 p.m, monday, through friday, with occasional saturdays.

G

Subject to the state, highway rules and regulations, no manufacturing on the site.

A

We'll have a second, a second okay discussion on the motion.

A

Seeing none all in favor, aye, aye altos, no.

A

Okay, the motion carries our oral decision will become final upon a written decision which.

A

Would be issued within 30 days unless otherwise extended by the board and the board's decision may.

A

Be appealed by filing a petition for judicial review with a clerk of the circuit court for.

A

Carroll county, in accordance with the provisions of chapter 200, title vii of the maryland rules.

A

Of procedure, the appeal must be filed within 30 days of the date of the board's written.

A

Decision, thank you and we're going to take about a 10 minute break before our next case.

A

We call the bza meeting to order and uh our case before us is mcdaniel college, a requests.

A

For a conditional use for a classroom or research facility and a driveway with variants case number.

A

Six four seven one, mr dixon, could you please introduce the file right? Okay, 6471, a request for.

B

Conditional use for classroom a research facility and a driveway with width with variants, the site.

B

Is located at stone, chapel road at stella, road westminster, maryland on property zone.

B

A agricultural district in election district, seven by mcdaniel college inc code of public local laws.

B

An ordinances section, 158.071.01 and 155.051 c2, a site visit is tentatively scheduled for.

B

September 20th 2023 at approximately 9 45 a.m, and if all this matter, we have the following documents.

B

Site minutes a response to joe vance's request of air state and local agencies from thomas.

B

Harris permits and inspections, a change of use permit, is required for the existing.

B

Morehouse, a building uh a building permit is required for each new building and addition.

B

The site shall be in compliance with the maryland accessibility code.

B

It is a september 13 2023 letter from christopher hahn, pe secretary to the planning commission after.

B

Having reviewed the information contained in the attached analysis, the facts as presented in.

B

The application, the relevant portions of the plan and in accordance with the land, use article this.

B

Conditional use request if granted is consistent with the policies. Timing of the implementation.

B

Of the plan, timing of development, timing of rezoning development patterns, land uses and.

B

Densities or intensities there's a september 13 2023 memo from bureau of comprehensive planning.

B

The beat the above bza case has been reviewed for consistency with the policies and recommendations.

B

Contained in the 2014 carroll county master plan, as amended in 2019 carroll, county water.

B

And sewer master plan and other functional plans, the planning staff finds this request.

B

For conditional use and variances is consistent with the 2014 carroll county master plan, as.

B

Amended in 2019 and would not have an adverse effect on the current use of the property.

B

Hearing notice for this case was posted uh in the newspaper september, 4th 2023.

B

Eric noticed was posted august 24 2023 by inspector scott robinson.

B

There is a response to joe vance's request from janet o'mara bureau.

B

Chief resource management and there's an attached sheet from patrick barger.

B

Forest and conservation may need to be addressed.

B

Rating plan and limits of disturbance, among other things, there is a response.

B

From to joe vance's request from jay voigt zoning administrator comments, no comments.

B

There is a response to joe vance's request from laura matthias bureau.

B

Chief development review, a site plan is to be processed in accordance with chapter 155.

B

S230008 awaiting initial submittal.

B

There is a response from andrea, hanley carroll, county environmental, health.

B

Department proposes may not be acceptable unless it is demonstrated that there is.

B

An adequate water supply and adequate area for the installation of an initial and two.

B

Replacement septic systems for the proposed use and any existing uses of this property.

B

There's a response to joe vance's request from jp smith, jr program manager ag land preservation.

B

Program, this property is not in preservation at this time. I have no further comments.

B

When there is the application, there is a july 27 2023 letter from samuel k, weissbom to the board.

B

B

S from carol land services, inc.

B

And plans from the platform clsi, I would ask that the file be entered in evidence moved seconded.

A

We're moving executive to move the following to evidence all those in favor, aye, aye all opposed.

A

No we'll move the file into evidence before we get started here this morning. I would ask if you have.

A

Any electronic devices please go ahead and put those on mute and, if you're here for this case.

A

Clipboard is over there and I see if some of you are in the back there for the next.

A

Case but make sure that you sign in on the appropriate sheet on the side and.

A

When you leave here today, make sure that you leave by the same door that you came.

A

In so, at the end of the day, they're not trying to track you down in the building.

A

If you plan on testifying here today in this case, could you please stand and take the oath.

A

Foreign, please raise your right hand. Do you swear, do you swear or affirm under the penalties of perjury.

A

That the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

A

Yes, very good, you can be seated and before you give any testimony when you go to a microphone.

A

And I'll and I'll remind you, please state your name address occupation and spell for the record.

A

Your last name, okay, with that we'll go ahead and turn it over to the legal counsel. Thank.

Q

You, ladies and gentlemen, to the board uh sam weiss by on behalf the applicant uh mcdaniel college,.

A

A lot of new faces in the audience you weren't here for the previous proceeding the procedure.

A

We're going to use today and that we use for all of our meetings is the legal counsel for.

A

The applicant we'll go ahead and give opening comments. He will then go ahead and call witnesses.

A

After the witnesses provide their testimony, you and the audience will have the opportunity to.

A

Ask them questions of their testimony and of their testimony. Only the board will have the.

A

Same opportunity after legal counsel is finished with the with their witnesses, then each one of.

A

You that wants to can go to the microphone and offer your own testimony. So again, it's.

A

Just questions of the testimony that the applicant may provide so that that's our.

A

Procedure there'll be summation comments and then then we as a board will deliberate. Okay. Sorry, I.

A

Didn't I did no problem, I didn't realize that I hadn't done that for this audience.

Q

So, sam weissbom, on behalf of mcdaniel college, the applicant here we are seeking a.

Q

Conditional use for a school of an agriculturally, it's spelled for the record, your last name, sorry,.

Q

W-E-I-S-B-A-U-M and the applicant is seeking a conditional use for a school of in agriculturally.

Q

Zoned property, as well as with variances, with respect to driveways, stemming from parking.

Q

uh Parking lots parking facilities. We believe that the con these schultz v pritz standard is.

Q

Met here uh unequivocally with respect to the conditional use, the collagen tends to pursue.

Q

At the property and that other standards of the code and maryland case law are met with.

Q

Respect to the variants and the unique nature of the property itself and the relatively low.

Q

Impact and undue hardship that it would cause to not grant such a variance request at this time.

Q

And we believe that, ultimately, the requests that are being made here by the applicant are more in.

Q

Line with the preservational purposes of the agricultural zoning overlay than to require.

Q

um To require compliance with the at least with respect to the variance itself, the width.

Q

Variance the granting the variance would be more in line with the goals of agricultural.

Q

Preservation of the natural land of carroll county, and so we intend to represent that case.

A

Okay, you want to call your first witness. Yes, I'd like to call mr eric simon, the vice president cfo.

Q

Of mcdaniel college okay good morning good morning, my name is eric simon, vice president and cfo. At.

R

Mcdaniel college simon s-I-m-o-n, I reside at 29 legacy drive in owings mills maryland my role at.

R

The college is, I oversee the day-to-day operations. I've been there for about two and a half years.

Q

And mr simon, uh have you been to the site in question uh before? Yes, I've been out to the.

R

Site many times, okay, and are you familiar with the college's intended use for the site? Yes, and what.

Q

Can you give me a description of what the purpose of the site would be used for by the college.

R

um The side will be in a line with the major of studies that we offer at the college that deal.

R

With agriculture and environmental sciences, so that would be the purpose of the of the.

R

Improvements to the site, and so just to clarify the use, would be strictly associated with classes.

Q

Or field research or lab lab work for mcdaniel college students? Would this be? Would these be.

Q

Students, you know introductory classes or about how many students might we expect in a class that.

Q

Would utilize the facility, so we anticipate that we will have um that we will have the.

R

Students on on the site, maybe once or twice a week um [music] there will be two purposes. One.

R

There's the site where we will offer students the opportunity to grow grow, a variety of different.

R

Things a variety of vegetables. We also offer the students opportunity to do some of the the work.

R

I would say to work around the site that deals with some of the trees and some of the ground.

R

Pieces and to study those pieces, but what we're also looking to do is to offer an opportunity.

R

For the students to also have some classroom discussion, so, in addition to being able to.

R

Work the site and to do a variety of different things. We also want to provide space for the.

R

We also want to provide a space to have some form of instruction currently, if we wanted, if without.

R

The improvements of the site, then we will offer the students an opportunity to come to the site.

R

And do some some work, but then they will also have to travel back to class on the main campus.

R

In order to have what we call official instruction in terms of like the lecture um piece, currently, we.

R

Do not have space on the site to fulfill that purpose, so so, uh mr simon, are you familiar.

Q

With the drawings I've I've just placed up on the screen here I am, and so these are renderings that.

Q

Have not been fully fleshed out into any full plan, but can you tell me what these are meant to show.

Q

uh A general plan for yes! So if you, if you look towards the right, the far rider drawing of what.

R

You will see are two classroom types of spaces. One is more of a lab type space where you have.

R

um Where you have a fewer amount of students in at a table in a larger table, so that's where.

R

You can actually do some of the work that will be assigned by the instructor at the top space.

R

That is also another classroom that can serve as more of a more of a traditional lectures tile.

R

Type of space, but it also offers the opportunity to do some lecture work as well. Some some lab work.

R

As well and outside of these classroom uses, for um you know, research and field work, including.

Q

You know planting and adding to the the premises and the vegetation there on are you? Will there.

Q

Be any other uses by the public or otherwise uh commercial uses that the college makes available.

Q

To the community for the for the site, um any scheduled tours or uh admission fee or anything.

Q

That could gain that one could gain access to the site. You know during business hours any time of.

Q

Day, no, um the site is not used for that purpose. Okay- um and I believe you mentioned uh occasional.

Q

Field trips, for with local organizations, schools, churches are those things that.

Q

um Would be happening frequently or is that something that's few and far between? We.

R

Occasionally receive requests from schools in carroll county to come out to the site.

R

It happens maybe once or twice a year, but it is not a frequent a request and so with the.

Q

Intended plan for the site, uh you know it wants, the development plans are in place and if this.

Q

Were approved, would you anticipate an increase, a material increase in the traffic or volume of.

Q

Occupants or entrance onto the facility or the use of the facility beyond its current existence, no.

Q

Thank you, mr simon. I have no further questions for mr simon okay. Now anyone in the audience have any.

A

Questions of mr simon's testimony again questions of his testimony go ahead and go to the microphone.

S

To state my name, just name, address occupation and spell for the record your last name.

S

Wendy bray, 1634, stone, chapel road, new windsor, my occupation is, I manage our property, our farm.

A

Spoken record, your last name b-r-a-y. He. My question is regard to the number.

S

Of students, I think the question was asked, but I'm not sure I heard the answer in terms.

S

Of the anticipated number of students that would participate in classroom instruction.

S

Etc, how big does that classroom have to be, and how often is that going to be used.

S

And then my third question is: is there a policy, although there's he stated that there's not.

S

Frequent requests for other people to visit the site, but is there a policy around who's able to.

S

Do that what the requirements are and so forth, concern would be that you know this would become.

S

More of a routine occurrence and that you know, there's no limit in terms of how often people.

S

Can come how many people can come I'd like to understand how that's going to be managed.

A

Get all those questions wait mistake stay there at the microphone.

R

So I have classroom space size. I have total number of students.

R

I'm assuming per per class or just in general.

S

Accommodated this word, I guess yes,.

S

Okay, the drawing looked like there was a significant number of.

S

Capacity class size yeah that I don't understand what that drawing represents, how big that is.

A

Well, um that'll, that would be a question I'm assuming mr hackett is going to be a witness.

A

A little bit later in the process, so, mr simon, could you go ahead and address those questions.

R

Sure, thanks for the question um in total, in terms of the actual number of students.

R

Is contingent on a number of majors that we have it's important to say that this is a.

R

Specialized this is not your typical history or english type of class. These these are students.

R

Who are devoted and interested in working in agricultural and and environmental types of work.

R

In terms of the actual class size, you can anticipate anywhere from five to ten students.

R

When there is a class in session, maybe more if it was to grow, but typically it's about five to.

R

Ten students, if you look at the drawing just to offer some some context, this is a classroom. The.

R

Bottom room: the bottom is a classroom as well. It's also important to note that we are also.

R

Looking at the drawing in terms of scale, there is a possibility that we may reduce on the size of.

R

This of the space as we continue to move forward with the design given cost. But if you move to the.

R

To the left of the drawing you see that this is a lounge space there's some restroom and storage.

R

Space, we obviously, we obviously have to have storage space for materials and different things.

R

There there's all there's, also a conference room space. We do have a roughly about three to five.

R

Faculty members who may be on a site for various purposes throughout the week either conducting.

R

Their own research or working with the students, some type of capacity, and then that is it the.

R

Actual size of the space that we intend to build will be tied to on the code. The code in regards to.

R

More specific rules about how large a space needs to be so as of right now, we don't have to find to.

R

Find out details for that, but we do not intend to over bill or to build a a large facility. No.

S

Okay um and then my other question was around.

S

um You know access to visitors and other. You know how what do you anticipate using that facility for.

S

Beyond just classroom instruction, you indicated there's a lounge there's a conference room is.

S

That going to be open for other uses, besides the six students that major in environmental studies.

R

Well, there's more than six um we've had five to six students, no five to ten, um and so.

R

The best way to explain it is that, in addition to classroom space, we have to give student spaces to.

R

Study, so if you, if you think about students who after class, who may actually want to take.

R

Some time to read or or to prepare for a class prior then we have to. We have to provide time.

R

For that as well, you can't always use that, as um as the classroom as as in that purpose and.

R

As of right now, there is no intent to operate in a commercial capacity if, if, if, if you're inquiring,.

R

If we're going to allow the public to use the space currently, there are no plans to do that.

R

Thank you, okay, any other questions of mr simon's testimony.

P

My name is bruce snyder 1301, somerset court, I'm a retired, concrete construction, superintendent.

P

And uh my last name is s-n-y-d-e-r. Thank you. Our question to the two gentlemen at the table is: do.

P

They have any knowledge of the real intention of mr singleton and mrs matthews for the farm.

P

In his will original will.

Q

Is this an appropriate question based on mr simon's testimony.

P

um This is based on the use of this property with the proposed drawings.

P

That I'm looking at the amphitheater, the and the different things that are on the drawings.

P

I need to know if they're aware of mr singleton's wishes for the property and, if you don't know.

A

The answer just simply state, I don't know the answer to that I mean that's and it was stated.

P

By him it was supposed to be in his original will, but I worked with him for several years.

P

And I know what that property was supposed to be intended for, and it was left to the college.

P

And the original was john hopkins and western maryland hopkins didn't want it uh participate.

P

In it, because it was too far from their baltimore campuses, western maryland college bought it out.

P

The property was never to be developed, wait. Let me know what you're doing is you're.

A

Giving testimony- and we will- I promise you- we will give you the opportunity for testimony.

A

um And mr simon, can you answer the question about the the previous owner and their intentions.

R

I am, I cannot answer, that's a question at this time. I I am unsure of the of the original intent.

R

Dating back to the singleton, I do know that we are in possession of all the documentation in terms of.

R

The purchasing of the properties, but I am unsure of the content that this gentleman is sharing.

R

And also just to note that we are no longer building an amphitheater. Those drawings are.

R

Conceptual, if you think about renderings, it is a is a concept. It's a high level thinking about.

R

um What you and I would like to build in a perfect world, we have already started to work through.

R

Some details, and we I can assure you that the amphitheater is not- is not a part of the current.

R

um Project thinking, okay, so, mr snyder, I promise you, you have the opportunity.

A

To give that testimony, okay, thank you. Now I believe you had a few questions.

A

You have questions of of um mr simon's testimony. Yes, yes right there next to the microphone, please.

A

Go to the microphone state, your name address and spell for the record your last name.

T

Thank you for your offer, giving us the opportunity to really operating professionally.

T

Really appreciate it, my name is thomas hopkins phd that is h-o-p-k-I-n-s. Dr thomas hopkins formally.

T

I too knew dr singleton, professor singleton at the time.

T

The addresses yes 1634, stone, chapel road, new windsor, maryland 21776-8810.

D

A

So so again, mr hopkins, dr hopkins questions of his testimony. Okay, because I promise you you'll.

A

Get the opportunity for your own testimony. My concern is the history of the property, since.

T

Mcdaniel college has has had ownership and their behavior and our ability, dr.

A

Hopkins so a question, a question: okay, that's testimony! Our question I have is.

T

Again and again, there were sort of this is sort of what this is going to be, and it requires a lot of.

T

Care dealing with water, I didn't hear anything about watershed or moving earth.

T

Or I'm an ecological scientist discovered how fireflies work so what.

T

This is what we're looking at the buildings and the question is: we had been at the site recently.

T

And that's not the only building that has happened in the last 20 years.

T

Again, dr hopkins you're providing testimony so any questions. The question is.

T

Are there, since there are already structures that have been built without a variance.

T

With what's called impervious watershed, in other words,.

T

Asphalt or whatever this requires, this building is impervious, it runs off water.

T

I want to know: what's going to be happening to that water, does it the requirements of.

T

The question okay and and dr hopkins what what we as the board of zoning appeals do is. We look is.

A

This is a property in the agricultural zone, okay, so we have several zones in the county. This is the.

A

Ag zone- and this is a request for a conditional use- it's not a pro. This isn't a permitted use.

A

Otherwise, we wouldn't be here for a classroom and research facility and the and the variances on.

A

The driveway with so anything that you just brought up that would be taking care of in.

A

Future hearings, whether it be the technical review committee, whether it be the planning commission.

A

That actually looks at the at the plan- we're not here to we're not here approving this plan. That's.

A

There that's shown for that. That's just we're not approving this plan. We are only approving.

A

The conditional use which allows them to have the classrooms in the agricultural zone- that's that's,.

A

All that's all we're doing so site plan stuff that that's that's not that's! Not our purview.

A

Well, and and that's fine, this is, is this: your first time you've been before the board of.

A

Zoning appeals, then you have an excuse, even if it was your 10th time. You have an excuse. Okay,.

A

Okay- and you can give testimony later, I promise you.

A

I will not stifle you at that point, but right now it needs to be questions. Thank you very much.

A

Okay, anybody have any more questions of mr simon's testimony.

A

Okay board members.

L

One question: if I may, um I was a little I was. It was a very projected protracted.

L

Answer you gave relative to the number of the maximum number of people that would.

L

Be at the site at any given time, can you give us a parameter of what that would be.

R

There are, there will be roughly about three to four faculty who may be doing.

R

Something on the site at at any particular time.

R

But if for most of the lab oriented type works that will be occurring on.

R

The site it will be in small groups, for example, one of the faculty members now.

R

Who is working on growing vegetables and different things? She she typically has a.

R

Lab of about three to six students at any given time, so that will be.

R

I guess if you were looking at it in terms of what the lab work would be, it could be roughly.

R

A five to ten students at any given time. If, if we were to have an actual classroom site.

R

That will be, in addition to typically the faculty who teach the labs, also teach the classrooms so.

R

It wouldn't be, in addition to, it would be a either or situation, so you could have either.

R

Five to ten students doing lab or you could possibly have maybe 10 to 15 students who may.

R

Be sitting in a classroom, so if I can ask the question again, I appreciate all the caveating.

L

Because you don't really know for sure, but I'm just asking a really straightforward question.

L

What's the maximum number of people that will be on the site at any given time.

R

Questions to answer um I'll say I would say 20.

L

That answers my question. Thank you. May I redirect after we're finished, okay.

A

Do you have any more? No, no, that was, I was just trying to get to a clear answer.

A

While she's thinking, um what transportation, um how is that? Is that going to be provided by the.

A

College to get out there or will they be driving personal vehicles? It's a combination, so some.

R

Students drive and then we also have a shuttle van who takes students out to the site: okay, okay,.

G

um Perhaps you can't answer this, but how many parking spots are going to be there.

G

Maybe we can get a handle on a number of people likely to be there at any one time.

G

Again, that would be site plan site plan, okay, yeah, that that would be determined by the code.

D

Second, they have to submit the site plan. Do they? We know how many parking spaces.

L

They're submitting and they're if you haven't, submitted a site plan, yet we have not yeah.

U

Okay I'll allow we normally don't want to go back to the audience, but please uh go to the microphone.

A

State your name, your address occupation, is spell for the record, your last name, it's my first.

V

Time: okay, we're we're good. My name is kim heffner h-e-f-f-n-e-r.

V

um At 1750 stuller road, new windsor, maryland 21776 question your my question: was you kind.

V

Of asked my question so I live at the at the. My house will be right next to where the singleton.

V

Road currently is, but you you asked my question, but I wanted to elaborate. So if there's, let's.

V

Say five to six or five to ten students and a couple faculty. um I've never seen a shuttle bus.

V

I've seen school buses, so I guess my question is: is it going to be? Are you anticipating them to be.

V

You know it can't possibly be more than one school bus. If it's five to ten students, I would think.

V

Faculty and then also as faculties, I know right now are in the original purpose. The faculty was.

V

Supposed to be living back there or they're still going to be housing for the faculty or professors.

V

Back there, I guess my my one question regarding this is the the traffic pattern and the buses.

V

And who's going to be driving down that road we haven't. Mr simon, can you answer her questions? Sure.

R

In the past, well, over the summer as we are introducing.

R

um Well, we are welcoming freshmen, we do have. um We do take them to the site to do some work around.

R

The property we have used a school bus in the past to take the students out there as volunteers to.

R

Help around the site, so so, yes, that it wouldn't. In regards to the question about whether a school bus.

R

Has been seen, that is in fact the case um in terms of the question about a faculty member living on.

R

Site there is currently a faculty member who does live on the site. His job is to maintain the site.

R

And make sure that we are doing what we need to do to be compliant, and it was our third question.

V

Of the of this space, is it going to be.

V

If they're widening the driveway in a pullover, is it going to be? We expect.

V

The visits to several school buses or several cars, or a shuttle bus, I'm just assuming from.

V

What you just said, if it's five to ten students and a couple faculty, the shuttle bus at the most.

R

So clarify we have a subtle van. We don't have a shuttle bus which is much smaller.

R

um Students have the option where they can drive themselves or they can seek.

R

A ride from the campus, most students drive themselves or they or they drive together.

R

Does that help? Okay that helps yeah, and I guess that the site, what you were mentioning site plan.

V

Is where you would talk about where they're yeah, we we don't get into particulars of parking spaces.

A

And the location of the parking lot we're only looking at the conditional use. Well then, just.

L

One more question: if I may no go ahead, mr snyder last question because we're you know we're kind.

L

Of focusing on driveways and parking lot and an actual you know, space within the building. How.

L

Is the outside of the property envisioned to be utilized in conjunction with the school? As far as.

L

Activities, space used and so forth, there has to be a vision, I'm sure.

L

In that, if you could share that with the group, I appreciate it.

R

Well, as of now I'm, the vision is to is to provide a space for students that are interested in.

R

Environmental sciences to to conduct research, it's also a space for faculty to conduct their research.

R

um And those are the two primary points we would like to obviously be a resource for schools, local.

R

Schools if they want to take students out to the site, but there is no aspirations to.

R

To to build a commercial space in on the site, our interest is purely to support our academic.

R

Programs and the research about faculty staff and students we do have students on the site.

R

All year round, doing research and looking into a variety of different things. And, and that is.

R

Why we pursued funding for this effort if I can follow up on that question, I appreciate that you.

L

Don't envision it being any any semblance of a commercial space, I take that for face value.

L

But you're using the word research and I'm trying to understand what research means.

L

um Can you you know, give me an idea when you say research, that's a fair question. um We have.

R

Faculty who work with students on um growing a variety of different vegetables, we have.

R

um We have a department because I'm not a science faculty, but we also have a a creek that goes.

R

Through the site, so occasionally we take students out there to look at that creek and and to talk.

R

About the various things there, there is a wetlands on the site, and so we obviously offer students the.

R

Opportunity like to take a look at that and see and understand it otherwise to cross-reference.

R

What they're learning in class to actually see it in person? There are restrictions on geese and.

R

And we do have geese who occasionally are on the site, and so we offer students the opportunity to.

R

See that, and so so with the research piece, it is studying those things a bit: it's not doing tests.

R

Doing anything you know like in that research sense, but it's also um trying to understand.

R

Like what a wetland is and then looking at it and studying how it evolves and grows and and.

R

Doesn't grow so those are the type of labs and projects that the faculty do with the students. So.

R

That's the the goal is to actually support that interest, especially in this area on that site.

R

Thank you so, mr caldwell, um mr simon, you mentioned something about local schools. Could you elaborate.

G

On that yeah, the um the dispatcher, I believe, is gerstalton that they asked if they can bring their.

R

Students out um their k-12 students out to look at the site. I believe it was um carroll county.

R

um They also had some staff out there and it was an opportunity to teach them about the land. How.

R

To preserve the land, things that happen to the land, and so that did take place this past april.

R

And so occasion, and so that was the I want to say the first time we've actually received.

R

A call from a school that said they actually want to bring some students out to look around.

R

And so we wanted to support that so we had some students.

F

Thank you, okay. This is really interrupting our process, but I'll allow go ahead. No, no.

A

Go to the microphone! If you have a question on mr simon's testimony.

A

Microphone because for the recording we need to get, we need to record every one of your words.

W

Hi, my name is james prodel. I live at 1774 stuller road, new windsor, maryland 21776.

W

Geico claims manager, retired and spell for the record your last name. He isn't peter.

W

R-O-D-O-E-H-L, okay, so my question to the college in first and foremost I would say.

W

I am very thankful for the college. We need more higher education throughout the country, so I.

W

Applaud mcdaniel college for their involvement in the higher education. But my question is to.

W

The college you indicated that the student size on any particular day were between a half dozen.

W

And a dozen so that indicates to me that you are decreasing the number of participants in.

W

A program because I personally having backed up to the college when I've seen them personally.

W

Is over two dozen, then you have field trips for various students coming in from around the state.

W

Not only did they bring one bus, four students, not only two buses full of students, but a.

W

Third bus so you're talking a minimum of 20 plus students on these field trips, so you're.

W

Looking at almost three dozen students that are on on these school buses, taking a property.

W

Just something that is that going to decrease in size. Thank you. Stay at the microphone.

F

Go ahead, mr simon and that's a fair question.

R

There so let's talk about the school buses, the um because that's come up um other than.

R

Girls thought the recent visit the only times we've had um school buses on the site is when.

R

We have taken students out to volunteer to do various projects around the site. We had.

R

A grant from the state of maryland that supported growing trees and you know other items on campus.

R

And so we've had we have. We have taken students from main campus out to the site to plant trees.

R

And various things that grant has concluded, and so we don't anticipate doing that anymore.

R

um So that will answer part of it now in terms of future requests from local schools. I'm not.

R

Familiar as familiar with carroll county, but it's my understanding that there's another.

R

um Site that has trails that that other schools use, because that has come up and got a preference.

R

To abuse that site, we do not receive many calls to visit the site. It is not a relatively large space.

R

That that you can walk, we have a tree farm and then you know we have a garden area. So.

R

um To that end, if we do have visitors, it is a very specialized and very specific.

R

Request, we don't anticipate many schools wanted to visit our site.

R

Let me go to the microphone. I'm sorry, sorry.

W

So you are decreasing the amount of class size for versus two dozen.

W

That have been out there in the past couple years.

R

Fair question um class size will fluctuate. That's why it's hard for me to kind of put a answer on it.

R

um Is is dependent on the student interest at that time? Right now we have students who are interested.

R

In working with the environment and doing agricultural work, so we have more students whether.

R

That continues it's kind of hard to answer that question, but so no we are not decreasing the size.

R

We're optimistic that will continue to keep where we're at and maybe even grow, but as of right now,.

R

um That tends to be a niche major and not I mean that there often isn't. I want to say this: the.

R

It's contingent on the amount of students who want to study environmental sciences at.

R

That time- and that goes up and down over the course of time right now, we have a.

R

Strong interest, which is why we're wanting to support that by adding classrooms to the site.

A

A

Well, question of his testimony: okay,.

T

Instructor going to have.

T

A tenant that means somebody who lives there or even temporary lives there.

T

Are there other mcdaniel people who are living on the property somewhere else? Maybe.

T

Is this so the question is: if they're going to be attended at this location, is there going.

T

To be, you know, living space, no, no, there will not be a tenant that will live in that space.

D

A day I think we're all done. Okay, mr weissbom, would you like to go ahead.

A

And call your next witness. Yes, I'd like to call martin hackett. Thank you, mr simon.

Q

Good morning, mr hackett, can you uh state your name for the record? Please.

Q

Address martin hackett, h-a-c-k-e-t-t, 439 east main street westminster 21157.

Q

And mr hackett I'd like to just qualify you here as an expert for purposes of this, testimony have.

Q

You can you give us a bit of your background in land planning uh and land zoning. Mr weisbaum, we.

A

Know how lengthy um mr hackett can be we've seen his you're going to grandfather him in.

Q

For me, yes, okay, based on his gray hair, we will grandfather him in well. We appreciate that he has.

A

For those of you in the audience, he has testified before this board many many times. So uh what what.

A

Fields would you like him uh to be a specialist in today today, we'll just go land zoning and land.

Q

Planning and we'll keep it rather simple, given the the nature of our requests. Okay, very good.

Q

Okay, mr hackett, I'm showing you uh a site plan here. Are you familiar with this plan.

Q

uh Yes, I am, and did your uh and what is your title with clsi, I'm the president, okay and.

Q

So clsi prepared the this plan correct. They did yes, okay, I'd like to move to enter this.

Q

Plan as uh applicants exhibit one okay, and could you go ahead and approach? It sure can.

F

A

And we will accept that into evidence, as applicants exhibit number one.

A

And this is what's being shown on the screen correct. This is on the screen right now,.

Q

um Though we may have a bit of a colored uh version of that on screen for everyone.

Q

And mr hackett, have you been physically to the site as well? Yes, I have.

Q

And so you're familiar with the present um improvement structures on the site. Yes, I am, and.

Q

That gentleman asked previously about water, runoff and many of the other considerations that will go.

Q

Into site planning based on your knowledge of the site, is there any reason to believe that further.

Q

Variances from any of those requirements would be requested in um in connection with this plan.

Q

Development, it should not okay and we will, at the time of site, uh submitting a site plan. Obviously.

Q

To the comments of the various agencies, around carroll county make sure that those site plans.

Q

Are submitted with intent to comply with the code in all respects, that's correct. Okay, with respect.

Q

To this site plan here, um you're aware that the zoning for this parcel is agricultural, correct, yes,.

Q

Sir, and so my understanding uh and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that uh just a few years ago a.

Q

School's use of an agricultural zone would have been a permitted use under the under the county.

Q

Code is that correct, that's correct and are you familiar with other schools in carroll county.

Q

That have had to uh apply for conditional use with respect to an agriculturally zoned property.

H

No, the private schools that uh that I know of through the county were actually permitted prior.

H

To them, making the overall text amendments that they made about three four years ago. They did a.

H

General text amendment where they uh changed some of the uh text in the actual bulk requirements as.

H

Far as the uses permitted conditionally, not at all or or permitted, and then uh so- and this was.

H

One that was schools churches, they were all permanent uses in the agricultural zone, about.

H

About three three years ago or so, um and then they got changed and that's why we're here before you.

Q

And so with respect, then to any of those other parcels notwithstanding that they made not that.

Q

They were permitted uh and haven't necessarily sought a a change of use. Would you expect that.

Q

The activity described here would be more or less or about the same level of intensity.

Q

um As those schools uses for within agricultural zone, well, it's most likely going to be less.

H

Intense because the schools that I'm referring to are complete schools, I mean these. This is a.

H

Classroom this is a environmental uh program that you're going to have some classes you're.

H

Going to do some outdoor activities and so on occasionally yeah some elementary schools or.

H

High schools or whatever may come visit the site, there's other uses that are permitted right now in.

H

The agricultural zone- that's a lot more intense uh that would allow a lot more traffic and a lot more.

H

Visitors- and I can go through that as and I assume you're referring to something, for example, as aggro.

Q

Tourism, or as an example, can you give me, can you give the board some examples of uses that would.

H

Be permitted, the uh commercial stables, that's a permitted use allowed within the agricultural zone.

H

Any building or land use for the shelter and or care of horses or other livestock, and they.

H

Are kept for purpose of hiring boarding daily or overnight, breeding buying selling trading.

H

For a fee, equons teaching, equestrian skills and day camps related to those activities.

H

That's pretty intense use that you could do non-restricted 24 7, basically,.

H

Obviously I get site plan approval. Mr hackett, I told you the other day. My wife is probably.

Q

Going to bring me up to carroll county sometime in the near future to go apple, picking and hay.

Q

Riding uh is that a is that a use that would be permitted under the code for this property? Yes,.

Q

And are you familiar with the other sites that make use of these types of activities.

Q

Hayrides, after picking are they are, are you familiar with uh the level of traffic that.

Q

They bring in and would that level of traffic be more or less or equal to you know a lab class that.

Q

Meets twice a week with 10 students, it would be a lot more traffic than than what we're proposing.

Q

And are you familiar with um the schultz pritz case standard for conditional use? Yes, I am.

Q

And can you do you believe that this use, if granted, would would meet the schultz.

Q

Print standard, and would it would there be any reason to think that otherwise.

H

It would meet the standard okay and, and would we expect that any of the intended um development.

Q

Here uh shown on the site plan would be would have materially adverse uh impact on.

Q

On the land, or would there be a way to accomplish it in a less adverse manner?.

H

It will not have an adverse effect on at this location, as it would any other location. It's.

H

Less intense use than a lot of the permitted uses I'm describing and there's more and of.

H

Course, there's conditional uses that are also a lot more intent tense of than what we're proposing.

H

With respect to, uh I want to move on to to ask you about the driveway width variants.

Q

um Can you can you point out uh with the with the mouse here uh and or if not, I can try to.

Q

Do that while you describe, can you show me the driveway that we're talking about here.

H

um Down in this location is the intersection we're proposing on stuller road.

H

The existing driveway goes out to stone chapel.

H

um Thank you, I'm technically challenged um that drive. The existing driveway is located here.

H

And it's approximately 2 900 to 3 000 feet back to the parking lot location.

H

um Our proposed access is off of stuller road, a county road from which we would.

H

Go ahead and minimize another access point onto the stone, chapel road intersection and and what.

Q

Is the reason for why we would be looking to create a new access point from stuller road.

H

Stone chapel is a county road and stuller roads, a county road and, as we locate this on on stuller.

H

Road we we meet the width requirement through here. It decreases the length of the driveway.

H

Approximately 400 feet or so therefore, from this point back we're only about 2500.

H

Feet back to the parking lot, so it's less less driveway. It eliminates one of the access points.

H

On the stone chapel road, which the intersection spacing obviously doesn't meet the criteria and.

H

We feel that's a much safer access and when you say it doesn't meet the criteria, can you.

Q

Elaborate: what criteria does it not meet on stone, chapel road intersection spacing.

H

From this point to that point, you have two access points and that's a safety concern it it. It makes.

H

It a safer situation, not that there's a huge safety concern, but it's definitely a better.

H

Situation where you can combine and eliminate access points, especially at that point, it's a.

H

Private drive, there's other private drives around off of stone chapel. This combines it combines it.

H

To one location on the stone, chapel off of stuller and other than creating that new access point, the.

Q

There's not a creation of any new driveway that access point is going to meet the existing drive.

Q

That you just pointed out that was 2900 or so or 2500, based on where and and just to be clear.

Q

um The variants that we're requesting is, in fact, to not to have to widen that driveway so.

Q

As to not impact the land further than need be to create safe, ingress and egress to the.

Q

Parking lot situated in the back of the property, correct, that's correct and are you familiar with.

Q

Standards of the code and and maryland case law as to uh the basis for granting or denying a variance.

Q

And would you classify the length of this driveway as a unique condition uh with.

Q

Respect to the requirement to widen or make sure that it is 18 feet in width for the entirety of.

Q

That driveway length that's correct. The uh the entrance we proposed to meet the width just.

H

Because of that, if there is a vehicle exiting and entering the property, you can clear the.

H

Intersection and get it off the public roadway as you go in we're providing pullover areas.

H

um Strategically, through the property, where people can, you know see significantly down.

H

The driveway and pull over if they need to allow in the event that you you actually have traffic.

H

Going two different ways at the same time, which a lot of people when they're coming to places like.

H

This they're coming roughly the same time class time and they're leaving the same time. So a lot.

H

Of times the direction is not but we're providing more than what the normal code uh would require on.

H

A private type driveway, the entrants that we're proposing falls under a commercial entrance and.

H

I mean, obviously, obviously the college is private, but uh it may be quasi-commercial, but the the use.

H

And and the intensity of the driveways is not meeting commercials, you know it doesn't meet.

H

Commercial standards but we're proposing the entrance to and in those commercial standards.

Q

For driveway with again those are primarily the the need to allow for two-way traffic in a.

Q

On a property that does have meet those commercial standards of intensity in terms of the volume of.

Q

Traffic, that's going in and out of the property correct, correct based on mr simon's testament.

Q

Where you present, and did you hear mr simon's testimony yes, I did and based on his testimony.

Q

And his description of the of the planned use for the property would I think you touched on this.

Q

Already, but just to be very clear for the record, would you anticipate that that level of use, if.

Q

We take it at face. Value would amount to a level that would require such a the the two-way access.

Q

Or meet the level of intensity that would that the intended uh driveway variances is in place for.

H

I don't think you meet the criteria and with the placement of our turn, our pullovers, I mean.

H

It would certainly function as a two-way road. There's plenty of room to pull over there's.

H

Plenty of visibility each way to to make that pullover maneuver to allow a vehicle to pass by.

Q

And with respect to the pullovers, if there were for, if there were uh concerns on the.

Q

Part of mcdaniel college's neighbors with the location of any of the pullovers. I see.

Q

That they're clearly marked here on the plan are those pullovers uh are they? Are they set.

Q

In stone, or is there some flexibility there to work with the neighbors to make sure that.

Q

The location of the pullovers are, in you know, as convenient as a location for their.

Q

Needs as possible, there is flexibility uh of the location of those pullovers.

Q

Okay, um and, and so would they would there be a substantial burden uh either on the applicant or.

Q

On the land itself to comply with the driveway, with requirements for the entirety of this.

Q

2500 or 2900 sophie foot driveway, leading back all the way to the parking parking lot.

H

I mean, obviously, the uh the increase of impervious area um is going to go against the environmental.

H

Type of atmosphere we're trying to keep it's going to increase your stormwater management quantity.

H

Needs it's going to increase your stormwater management. Quality needs requirements going.

H

Through the site plan process, um trying to keep it back to nature is the is the goal and where.

H

We think we're achieving in the best way to preserve the uh the natural scenery out there.

Q

Thank you, mr hackett. I don't have any further questions. Okay,.

A

Does anyone in the audience have any questions of mr hackett's testimony.

A

And again, his testimony we're getting really close to your own testimony. Okay, uh dr hopkins.

T

Is this proposed road going to have an impervious surface.

T

You seem to indicate that the proposed road is going to have an impervious rate. It's going to.

H

Be paving and our other roads, the property going to be made impervious that are currently just dirt.

T

In other words, are you planning to put more roads you're talking about one, but things tend to go.

T

Just like the fact that there are 12 parking spaces for students.

T

And a huge pavilion sitting right beside that counter accommodates for a lot of people.

H

The as far as the paving goes, I mean one whatever we have on a site plan will be.

H

Restricted to obviously build that will be under a public works agreement and so on.

H

um We're going to try to keep everything as natural as they can, but if it's, if we're.

H

Being required to pave it through the county process, we're gonna have to achieve whatever.

H

The requirements that we, you know that we're going to have to be imposed on us.

H

There's no other roads. I'm sorry go to the microphone, mr hopkins, so that we can get your words recorded.

T

Are you aware of the runoff rate that occurs when there's very very.

T

Heavy rain and the impact of that on the pond that is shown on that.

T

Diagram, sir, could you repeat the question, I'm sorry I didn't. I didn't quite understand it.

T

T

H

The road is located in here, [music] that's the red right here. This is the this is the.

H

Area we're proposing the road that's going to tie into the existing road right there at the curve.

H

I'm not aware of any gate. That's going to be there.

T

There's, mr simon, you use, you see manxes to answer the question. Go ahead. No, I'm! Let me.

H

See it from there identify yourself, I'm sorry, my name is eric simon. um Vice president, ed mcdaniel.

R

And on the drawing on some of the renderings, we have looked at a gate because again going.

R

Back to an earlier point, we have no intentions on being a public site, and so in order to limit.

R

um Anyone driving in the area from accessing the site we have talked about putting the gate.

R

At the entrance way just to limit that or to prevent it all together,.

A

Okay, any other questions of mr hackett's testimony: okay, miss bray, mindy bray, just a point.

S

Clarification so to change that entrance. Will there need to be like an assessment of the.

S

Impact on traffic on stellar road, I know there's a bus, stop there for children's school and other.

S

Things is that part of the next step, as you said, that would be part of the next step. Okay, thank you.

A

Any other questions with mr hackett's testimony board members.

A

We're good! Thank you, mr hackett. Thank you, mr weissbom. Do you have another witness.

Q

No, no more witnesses, okay, so as advertised and as promised. This is the opportunity for anyone.

A

In the audience to go to the microphone and give your testimony, uh but I'll name, address occupation.

A

I'll spell for the record, your last name and remain at the microphone, so mr weisbaum can ask.

A

You any questions and the board can ask you any questions. Mr sussman, my name is john sussman 3046.

X

Old washington road is my address. I own the farm that abuts up to the back end of mcdaniel college.

X

And my concern was with trespassers: I've had some issues in the past. My property is thoroughly.

X

Posted and when this might even be a question, when have they looked at the property lines when.

X

They're talking about there's, a stream goes through the property. There's wetlands that go through property and they're going to have children walking through all that. Will it be.

X

Therein posted so they know exactly where the property lines are, that they do not.

X

Trespassed on my ground, where we have agriculture ground there and we are actually farming it. I've.

X

Rented the farms out and I'm just concerned about the trespassing that I've had troubles with before.

A

College- and this is a really questioned answer it should have been. Mr simon- would.

A

You like to address that I should have gotten up you're right. That's that's!.

A

Okay, mr sussman, this again is your first time before the bza, so you have an excuse.

R

Question on this past year we did get the property line restaked, and so we are um clearly in the know.

R

Of of where the current property line starts and ends, okay, so you'll take steps to make.

A

Sure that they know where the um because I guess it would be nicodemus road that separates your.

A

Property from the the college property: it's we border, both stellar and nicodemus, yeah.

X

We're right there and we had trouble with the line going down the stellar end of.

D

Okay, so it is, is duly noted, mr um mr simon, correct correct. uh We have.

R

um We have restaked all of the property lines. We've did that this past year.

A

Good, mr sussman and the other thing is mr simon. I would appreciate if you exchange information with.

A

Mr sussman, I said this in the previous case in case there are concerns down the road. Okay,.

Q

They will do that. You can be your honor if you like uh the they, they will do that and have done.

Q

That and that, since mr simon has come on board with the college, I think he's done a lot to open.

Q

Up those lines of communications, particularly with the neighboring uh neighboring folks of this.

Q

Parcel and I I know because I've helped to draft certain correspondents specifically, that uh his.

Q

Door is open to them anytime, all right. Just on the record. I have not received anything about anything.

X

This is the first time I heard about it when I got the letter in the mail from the county. This.

X

Is the first? Yes, not excuse me not to clarify, I did not send any correspondence about this.

Q

Because other than you know properly, noting the neighboring parcels in the application.

Q

Knowing that they'd get notice, but mr simon has held meet and greets uh and and we will.

Q

Of course, make get anybody that does not have his contact information, his contact information.

A

Okay, very good. Thank you any any questions of mr sussman's comments. Okay, mr perdel,.

W

Well, I I just again my name is james prodel, 1774, stuller road, new windsor maryland.

W

um I just want to educate people on especially daniel college as to where.

W

We're coming from as and I'm speaking for, the neighbors on starwood road go back two years.

W

Ago on route 27, you had a tractor trailer overturned with a full load of dog food.

W

The state police shut down route 27 for eight hours. They directed traffic off of 27 up nicodemus.

W

Onto stellar road, which is a one-lane road that goes both directions.

W

Come in the opposite direction, the state police right of people of stone chapel on the stellar.

W

Road, so therefore you have people meeting right in front of my house pulling on my yard. I broke.

W

Up three fistfights that particular day three. Luckily it was just physicals. I called the county.

W

They said you need to call the state police. I said they're already here: they're, not directing traffic.

W

They said we'll go back and call the highway, I called them, they said call state police.

W

Got the same runaround. Finally, the neighbors decided to pull all their cars down at the end of.

W

Their property park them won their grass, so people would not be running through our yards. That's my.

W

First issue with stuller road number: two: you have three businesses operating out of stellar road.

W

You have 5k construction, you have lewis concrete, and now you have the crop shop.

W

Which was a beauty salon that used to be on here on main street that relocated the stuller road.

W

Now, 5k construction and lewis concrete does not increase traffic volume. That much, however,.

W

The crop shop wednesday afternoon, thursday, friday and saturday traffic triples on.

W

Stellar road now you're looking to put another business mcdaniel college with.

W

An entry on the stella road, so now you will have four businesses entering stellar road.

W

How much more traffic can that road handle when I first moved up here 18 years ago, that.

W

Was not a county road? The county just took over that that road about five years ago.

W

So we need to look at actual volume of traffic on the road which is increasing tremendously.

W

The road is not handled to handle that much property number three: you get these big buses.

W

In here that are going to unload students onto how wide are they going to make that.

W

Apron where they don't cut across because again we're dealing with a single road.

W

In order to make that turn number four, you got to be careful with the shoulders.

W

Of the road, not only do you have the power lines from bg e coming up the.

W

Road, you now also have comcast, which has a tower down at the other end of stella road.

W

So those are concerns when you go to examiners. How is that going to affect my electricity? My cable.

W

Things like that again, we started out with eight houses. You just added another house at the end of.

W

Stellar road at nicodemus- and there is proposed for another house at the crop shop they're going.

W

They've already marked off the property to give permits to build another house. So now you're going.

W

To go to 10 houses again, the road cannot handle that much volume. Thank you see there. The the.

A

Microphone, mr president, no questions any questions board members. Any questions of mr protels.

A

Testimony I'm just curious. You. You indicated that there were three other businesses on stellar road.

W

There are three businesses again 5k construction and lewis concrete, but they're very minimal. Do you.

U

Know if they are permanent or they have approvals to have those on they always park their vehicles.

W

There that, but the I know for a fact that 5k construction operates out of that home.

W

I'm not sure about lewis, but the crop shop. Definitely they took an old garage and converted.

W

It into a beauty salon, that's the one that has created an increase in traffic volume on that road.

W

You get wednesday afternoon thursday, friday saturday traffic has tripled on that road. So again,.

W

You're talking a single lane road, you can't you can't expand that road to the right because of all.

W

The underground power lines and on the other side of the road is a farm that is leased out to libby.

W

Brothers, where they harvest, whether it be soybean corn whatever and again we're getting ready to get.

W

Into harvest season, when they bring in the tractor trailers to do the crops and stuff like that.

W

Again, that's just additional volume of traffic on that road. The road cannot handle all that volume.

U

Thank you any questions. Okay, thank you. Anyone else to provide testimony.

A

Mr snyder snyder 1301 somerset court, tired, concrete superintendent and my last name is snyder.

P

The only thing I have to say is the college is proposing something that sounds really.

P

Fantastic for the green energy people and all the renewable stuff and everything, but mr singleton's.

P

Original and as far as I know, his final intention was that this property was to be a retreat for.

P

Professors only it was not for student activity. The first house you come to on the road as you.

P

Come in was to be the study. I helped him a little bit in there. He had bookcases built in for tons.

P

Of books, he was a well-renowned professor. In the study of humanities, he had some published books.

P

It was his intention to give professors from all over who were interested in humanities.

P

He got, they could have come from italy, where he spent years studying and teaching or around the.

P

Country he did not intend this property, it was a retreat only. It was not intended to be a classroom.

P

Now he was very much into agriculture. I helped him in his vineyard. The only thing that stopped.

P

Him in mowbray from producing wine up, there was the health department and all the red tape.

P

Mr singleton was not a red taped man, he followed the rules, but he didn't want to do paperwork and.

P

Go with all the restrictions, so that's something I know for a fact. I actually cut a road into his.

P

Woods for him because he was making a grotto and he was going to put benches and things like that.

P

For the professors to have a quiet place, to get collect their thoughts and do stuff like that.

P

And the college is going to come in and this proposal here is just the beginning.

P

They're going to come off with this they're going to get federal grants to get more students.

P

Because of the way everything is now with the uh green energy and all the environmental stuff.

P

And before you know it, there they'll be here again for more buildings and it's never going to end.

P

And this is just you know, like I say in my opinion, it's a snow job. All they want to do is.

P

Get this going applied to the federal government for money, get the grants, expand the seven houses.

P

On stuller road should never have been put in. Mr singleton wanted no development of that property.

P

The first thing they did was manipulate the will and there are seven houses there.

P

So I know that for a fact- and it's not- I have nothing against the college. I have nothing against.

P

Students, I have nothing against anybody, but I know they're not using this land as it was intended.

P

And that's wrong: okay! State microphone! Mr weisbach. Mr snyder, I appreciate your testimony uh a couple.

Q

Of quick questions, so I just want to be clear: are you you mentioned the will earlier? Are you.

Q

Stating that you have knowledge that the will states, otherwise as to the specific specificity.

Q

Of teachers versus students use of the property professors versus students, mr singleton stated.

P

To me several times, it was to be a retreat for professors. Only now what happened with the will.

P

And the dot how it was presented to the lawyer or what the lawyer did with it, how he interpreted it.

P

Or or reinterpreted I don't know understood, and so is your concern here from your testimony that.

Q

Less the number of users of the property and more their classification as teach as professors versus.

Q

Students, for instance, if I were to tell you that there was going to be a professor's lounge, which.

Q

All 50 mcdaniel professors would utilize daily with. Would that alleviate your concerns.

P

Because there was no development, there was the first house was the study, mrs matthew's house.

P

Was to be for the professors, it wasn't to be a circus there and the main house was to be.

P

A meeting house where the professors collected their thoughts and collaborated together on all.

P

They were doing. This was not to be this expansive thing that the mcdaniel college wants it to be.

Q

And just to be clear when you say this expansive thing that mcdaniel college wants it to be.

Q

What are you referring to? I'm referring to the classroom activity, the building's going in it's.

P

Just the beginning, you know it and I know it so don't try to play games here, I'm not playing any.

Q

Games, sir, thank you. Thank you. Women stay there, mr snyder. Any questions of mr snyder by the board.

A

But but you don't have any, mr snyder, you don't have any direct knowledge of what was actually.

A

In the will, no, I don't I I never got into uh helped mr singleton, in various things around.

P

His property, but I never like uh said oh, I want to see this or I want to see that.

P

Document I I was never privy to that. I never asked to be privy to that. Okay, I.

P

I took him for his word. He took me for my word and that was it and mr, mr simon would like to.

Q

Address one point: uh in response to one of the questions: absolutely he has the opportunity to.

A

Ask mr snyder any questions, but speaking of the microphone mr snyder or mr simon no problem.

R

um We have, as a college, looked into programs offered by carroll county where we could.

R

Preserve the lab and not over develop it. I mean there are there's a program that.

R

um um What is my understanding that there is a, I don't know the proper terminology, but it.

R

Was share with me not too long ago that that that there is an opportunity within.

R

The county where you can apply for um I don't know if it's called a permanent easement or.

R

Some sort where, where you can implement some type of injunctions, where the land can't be.

R

Overdeveloped over time- and so we have looked at that- you know those opportunities. In fact, we have.

R

Made contact with the county about that so again, just to reiterate there there is no vision to to.

R

There's no division. There is no vision to over, develop the space and to to build multiple.

R

um Buildings on the site, as as I said, we have made contact with the office to to learn more.

R

About that program, and I'm sure there is a way you can track that down just to answer mr snyder's.

R

Question I'm sure you mean what you say, but at one time there was one bay bridge now, there's two.

D

Okay, any any questions.

A

Okay, anyone else. Thank you, mr snyder. Thank you any testimony, mr hopkins.

F

Thank you again, or I should say dr hopkins has to do with a few things. Three things one. I too.

T

Was a friend a professor singlet him? Well, no he's getting my doctorate degree at johns hopkins.

T

Everything bruce said, bruce snyder said, is consistent with the kind of.

T

For instance, I was very close with him in terms of professor student relationships.

T

But he would not invite me. He just told me straight out: I'm not going to invite you down to.

T

The retreat, so just it's the same story, number two water, the water, that's going to be used by people.

T

While they're is lowering the water table, in fact, I wonder where the second pond went.

T

South of that map there's pretty much north that way south that way and we supply the waters.

T

Through our springs to turkeyfoot road run, which feeds into that first lake and there's.

T

There is a good deal of wetland around there are concerns. I have of people not only drink water.

T

But they void water and other things, and there are other things that go into a waste water system. The.

T

Idea of the photography, this is high.

T

This is low. This is high. I can give them food of the privilege of being able to go back.

T

To the back house to take pictures of fireflies 20 years ago,.

T

And what caught my eye? Because I would go down there.

T

You put away is what happened in this area? Suddenly.

T

Moved in this became a crucial cornfield if the college really has any sense of environment impact.

T

No tilt farming requires chemicals that are personally agility, but the worst thing is.

T

Now it has been grown and certain weeds growing, my hair and, I suppose, that's kind of an experiment.

T

S the chemicals they've used for all the corn and then a year after year after year, those chemicals.

T

T

Area that are resistant to.

T

Operations to kill plants so now.

T

You all are circuits, if you don't want it like thistle,.

T

That spread or online these are yearly. These are unusual usual. These are now pesticide resistance.

T

Animals and plants. The second question have to do with it.

T

First, one was water use which lowers our water table. Secondly, and we can.

T

Go discussion with that whatsoever. There are a lot of people around here. 20 lettersection.

T

And we're talking about where it is well known that deals they're abused for waste.

T

T

Mostly our waste, but they also reach out things, have been put on the land.

T

I'm upset that we've been in college. Let this happen. I know that.

T

Unleash the land non-environmentally.

T

My question is: why don't I first, which let's see messed up environmentally.

T

Before getting into a huge development.

T

Water wastewater and all these plants, which eventually could have in your house.

T

This isn't that people from is specifically.

T

Specifically, instructions.

T

That's just a concern of environmentalism which is in my field.

T

The white any kind of understanding on their part and suddenly now they're intervened, environmental.

T

Which may bring more students to the park.

T

That means more students point in. In fact, I heard same here that the students are ecstatic.

T

About having a farm, I doubt if any of them end up being fun workers, it's a lot of work.

T

And it just a few, for instance,.

T

And you can hear them on property orders, their problems.

T

People come through our property to get there.

T

I was picked by a truck on.

T

Even though this is not there, it is.

T

My driveway 35 feet, plus into my drive way more minutes, hit by a truck only 90 miles an hour.

T

So I looked around a bit because I have artificial.

T

And it wasn't covered by insurance, because information.

T

Thought to hear his father and you only got the chicken who crossed into one yellow line.

T

Because, meanwhile, it ruined the rest of my life, so the traffic.

T

Is crystal what about children's safety? Thank you.

A

Mr weisbaum, you have any questions of dr hopkins. No questions just that mcdaniel plans to you know.

Q

Comply with all regulations with respect to any site plan or development when, when the time comes.

Q

It doesn't explain the core I haven't. We have no questions as to uh dr hopkins testimony. Okay,.

A

Board members any questions of dr hopkins testimony. Okay, anyone else want to give testimony.

A

Yeah miss bray. I need to reintroduce no okay, fine, um so just for the record, um the stream.

S

That everyone is talking about what my husband mentioned: it's it's technically, a turkey foot.

S

Run it originates on our property, 1634, stone, chapel and, as part of the.

S

um The rural legacy program of maryland, so it's part of that whole watershed that it's maintained.

S

Through so I just wanted to make that point, and there were two ponds originally on that now.

S

There's one and it's pretty low in volume at this point because of the uh the drought that we've had.

S

So I think water usage, water consumption, you know- is going to be a question that we'll have for some.

S

Of the further studies, my only comment in this sort of ties into what mr snyder was saying. This.

S

Seems like a awfully big investment for mcdaniel college to be making for 12 students that might.

S

Major in environmental studies, you know the those this is no small investment to put in.

S

A new road to build this classroom to make all of these you know proposed changes that are in this.

S

Site plan so call me skeptical, but I do think that there are designs that this is going to lead to.

S

Something that is going to continue to grow over time. Otherwise, why make that sort of investment.

S

In development of this property- and I do not feel that mcdaniel has necessarily been a good neighbor.

S

We have been at our current location for 22 years. We've never had anyone from the college contact us.

S

About, what's going on, we received this letter in the mail a month ago we were not given any.

S

Information about this, we had to come to the this site yesterday and sit in a conference room and.

S

Review these documents in order to get any kind of information about what was being proposed so.

S

Certainly, the you know the neighborhood. All of these impacted properties have not had any kind.

S

Of opportunity to interact with the college, the college did not provide information. I know that.

S

One of the women that was previously here she had reached out to the college they refused to.

S

Return her calls so again, it's it's, not we're not starting out on a good foot. um You know, as.

S

I said: we've been there for a long time much longer than a lot of these other people. We've.

S

Had you know issues and the experience has not been positive, so I am skeptical about where this.

S

Is all leading, I understand that technically, as an agricultural pro parcel, they are allowed to have.

S

A quote unquote private school, but this really becomes an extension of the mcdonald's. Excuse me.

S

Mcdaniel campus, as opposed to what the spirit of I think the original agricultural permitting was so.

S

I don't know if they may have any questions. Okay, oh, wait. uh No questions! Okay, white, small.

A

I'm sorry no problem, I'm sucker. I think I perhaps missed this. Maybe in the testimony you indicated.

U

The uh the capital expense that's going into the development of the site. Have you seen a budget? Do.

U

You know what the cost to construct this edition is no, I have no idea, but I'm I I just want to.

U

Confirm that I hadn't missed something I have not seen anything I'm just assuming that, given.

S

The you know the the proposed you know it's not cheap. To put we, you know you can spend fifteen.

S

Thousand dollars just on a little driveway and we're talking about our paving a whole road, etc.

S

So I'm sure this is a significant investment, but I've not seen any details. No okay and- and are you.

U

Aware that, if we should decide to grant approval for this today, that if they want to construct.

U

Anything else on this site that they have to come back before this board. To get permission. Yes,.

U

Okay, I just wanted to confirm. I heard a lot of people saying that if this gets granted.

U

This is just the beginning and then it will turn into have a snowball effect. So I just wanted to.

U

Confirm that you were aware that yeah they can't so I understand that there is a lengthy you know.

S

Assessment and planning and so forth, and that any additional beyond this, but again what they put.

S

Forward here that classroom as an example, you know, mr simon, indicating that this was just sort of a.

S

Placeholder, that's my word not his. So when do we get to actually see the final, you know, proposals.

S

And so forth, I guess that's comes further that'll, be before the technical review committee and the.

A

Planning, commission right right and so any if so, if that does get approved and built to your point,.

S

If they want to build now, a second classroom they'd have to go start all over again and go.

S

Through this process is what you're saying that's correct? Okay, thank you. You're welcome. Thank you.

A

Any other questions. Okay, any other comments from anyone in the audience.

T

Is there any intent to raise animals farm animals, not pets, but mr simon, no.

T

There's no intent to raise things or cows or guinea pigs.

R

A

Okay, presentation of testimony and evidence is now closed and some nations are in order. Mr weisbaum.

Q

Yes, thank you. uh I want to first just say I appreciate everybody. That's come out and their.

Q

Passion for the community and and the neighborhood um you know, despite any skepticism the the college.

Q

Is very much intending to proceed with something they feel is in the best interests of their.

Q

Students and their initiative as an institution of higher education, which has a long-standing ties.

Q

In this community, uh but is not intending in any way to you, know repurpose this, this land away from.

Q

What is the agricultural preservation intent? As mr simon mentioned, they've even began preliminary.

Q

Discussions for what a conservation easement might look like for further uh preservation of the land.

Q

With the county in in short here, uh as we've alluded to all, plans submitted uh and put before.

Q

The county planning committee and technical review committee will be submitted in full.

Q

Compliance with all code and the the requests here are very specific as to a conditional use.

Q

For the agriculturally zoned property by a private school, in accordance with section.

Q

158.138 of the code and for driveway with variants that will actually make a more minimal impact on.

Q

The land than compliance with the typical with regulation requirements would be so.

Q

um We be, we feel that we've presented a case that is, that clearly meets the schultzpritz standard.

Q

With respect to conditional use and with respect to a variance, we feel that the length of the the.

Q

Length of the driveway is a unique condition uh with given the relatively light amount of.

Q

Traffic we expect under such conditional use uh where it would be substantially burdensome to.

Q

Require a widening of the driveway and in fact a widening of the driveway would go against.

Q

um The very fundamental spirit and nature of the agricultural zoning.

Q

Overlay, so we are presenting a plan which we feel.

Q

Most minimally invasive to surrounding neighbors and to the environment and the land itself in.

Q

Order to comply with the spirit of agricultural zoning and make this as minimal of a disruption. As.

Q

Possible to the neighbors, while also looking out for and and carrying through, a purpose that is in.

Q

The college's best interest for its student body and its curriculum, and hopefully uh in.

Q

Passing on some level of passion for environmental studies and agricultural preservation,.

A

We're going to take a five minute break.

A

What do you call? What do you call the hearing back to order? Okay,.

A

So so we have uh we've, just got this um summations and so.

A

The hearing and record of this case is now closed. Were you finished, mr? uh Yes,.

A

I didn't finish him. He finished himself. Okay, you were asleep the.

A

Hearing a record of this case is now closed. In accordance with the open meetings act of maryland. The board will now consider the case board members.

A

Mr snyder how'd, I know.

L

Well, first of all, myself and the board of course always appreciate all the participation by the.

L

um Public and the neighbors, it really helps us to better understand more.

L

Clearly, these these situations and these requests as they come forward.

L

But with that, I need to be really clear what the purpose of the board is, and that is determined.

L

Is this an appropriate use for the space? Not you know things like um traffic control necessarily or.

L

Environmental issues or those things they are all handled within the site, planning process.

L

um So again we have blind, not blinders, but we have. We have a channel, we look at and is this.

L

Appropriate use relative to all the other uses conditional uses we've granted in the.

L

Agricultural zone over the years and that's the context in which we have to deliberate so.

L

Frankly, you know all the information provides very helpful, but we're not here to adjudicate a will.

L

Or are we here to do a traffic study, or are we here to deal with environmental issues in this.

L

Particular situation matter of fact, speaking of environmental, uh the request is for a school of.

L

Environmental sciences- I one would think you could not ask for a better a better neighbor.

L

When it comes to dealing with environmental issues and even educating people going forward of how to.

L

Better deal with those types of things uh and, lastly, when I hear the rationalize mcdaniels.

L

Investment, the prudent of their investment in this property. We look at it within the context.

L

Of the request- and that is how we need to look at it so based on that uh going back one more thing.

L

As far as the variance on the roadway, we deal with this a lot in these type of requests and what I've.

L

Found that maintaining some level of integrity of the agricultural zone is best served by not.

L

Putting the commercial wide driveway of a hill or down a hill, it kind of invites people to go.

L

That way it, I think it facilitates trespassing and also it basically turns the area from when.

L

A normal driveway would be to a commercial entity, so in that case I do not have. I support the uh the.

L

Request for the site, as well as the variance for the reduction in the requirement for the driveway.

A

The second, I also support the request. I think this is in excellent use for this 59-acre site.

U

And I believe that the impact by use by mcdaniel college is going to be way less.

U

Than what could be happening on this site, if used as purely an agricultural site,.

U

If this is apple, if this use would have been proposed three or four years ago, we wouldn't be.

U

Sitting here it would just have been permitted by right, so I'm I'm prepared to vote in favor, for it.

U

And I think it's like I said I commend the college. They do a great service in our community and.

U

It's gonna get my vote. Mr caldwell, I have nothing to add. I agree with the approval of the request.

G

Me also, the only thing I want to add is again a couple of years ago. This has been.

A

A permitted use this is now conditional use, so this is an additional hurdle for.

A

An informational meeting for the community. I would hope that mr simon, you, you have listened.

A

To what the comments have been here today, to take them to heart and take them back to the.

A

The uh the appropriate people at western maryland college. um I think this sorry.

J

Mcdaniel, it was 20 years ago. I know it dates me, I'm there too bad. So so I I think that's.

A

Important for everyone to be on the same page, and I think um this this will be an asset uh to the.

A

Community, uh the other thing I'd like to say is I I heard dr hopkins testimony that turkey foot.

A

Run started on his property, um sir. I just want to say to you: um I live 2, 000 acres down below.

A

That because I built a bridge one time and I knew it's- a 2 000 acre watershed area above me, I live.

A

On turkeyfoot run, so the water quality is of a concern of of mine, so I just I just wanted to.

A

Say that I had no idea where the headwater started and thank you for that information.

A

um With that uh I'll go ahead and entertain a motion on women, I think we need to circle back.

U

Perhaps I don't know gross is covered sufficiently. Oh experience, the variance the the driveway with.

A

Variants, yeah I'll I'll address that we're looking at a lengthy uh driveway there and with the the.

A

um Pull outs pull-offs uh there we're looking at significantly less uh impervious uh surface and.

A

With the um it's kind of a moving target on the number of people, but this is almost like a wedding.

A

Venue, except not to that extent the traffic would be going in and the traffic would be at a certain.

A

Time and would be coming out at another and- and I think that's very important distinction that.

A

We make as a board of zoning appeals is whether uh whether it would be two-way traffic. It seems to me.

A

That it would be traffic in for a time period and traffic out there's there should be a minimum of.

A

Bypassing traffic and the other thing is schultz v. Pritz absolutely um would this? Would this be worse.

A

At this location than any other location in the ag zone, I I can't see that it is so it meets the.

A

The provisions of schultz v pritz sorry, what was the specific request as far as the variants did, we.

U

Just did we demonstrate practical difficulty or unreasonable hardship? I guess the length.

U

And the cost to install well for environmental standpoint in in my opinion would be less is more.

U

Right yeah, less is less, is more environmentally friendly exactly so, mr snyder, you are correct.

G

I was in a reasonable hardship for the land well and it's it's a practical difficulty.

A

When it comes to the money, but an unreasonable hardship, environmentally so does that cover it.

A

I I don't know that answer. Does that cover it? It works for me, okay, perfect! Thank you, mr dixon.

A

That's all: that's all that matters. Okay propose uh go ahead, mr caldwell, okay, um I'd propose the.

G

uh As follows, in case number, six, four: seven one before the board of zoning appeals, so the.

G

Board approve the request for a classroom and research facility and driveway with variants.

A

Do I have a second second okay, any discussion on the motion.

A

Seeing none others in favor, aye, aye aye, all opposed. No no motion carries uh our oral decision.

A

Will be become final upon a written decision which would be issued within 30 days unless otherwise.

A

Extended by this board, uh the board's decision may be appealed by filing a petition for judicial.

A

Review with a clerk of the circuit court for carroll county, in accordance with the provisions.

A

Of chapter 200 title vii of the maryland rules of procedure, the appeal must be filed within 30.

A

Days of the date of the board's written decision, thank you very much, and this hearing is adjourned.

A

Okay, we're going to call the hearing we're going to call the hearing daughter.

A

um We have before us, mr dixon, do we have our paperwork.

A

uh We're here for case number 6470 and um I'd: ask that if you have any electronic devices, please.

A

um Put them on vibrate so that it doesn't interrupt the proceedings here today and when you.

A

Vacate the building, please go out the same door that you came in so at the end of the day, they're.

A

Not trying to locate you in the broom closet um and it looks like everyone has signed in uh on the.

A

Sheet on the side, so with that, um mr dixon, could you go ahead and introduce the file for us? Please.

B

All right k-6470, a request for conditionally use for the manufacturing of wine and variants for the.

B

Driveway the site is located at 2236, gillis, road, woodbine, maryland or property zone. A agricultural.

B

District at election district, nine by michael morin, code of public local laws and ordinances.

B

Sections 155.051 c2 and c5 158.07, 1.01 and 158.168. A site visit is tentatively scheduled for.

B

September 20th 2023 at approximately 10 15 a.m, and if all this matter, we have the following documents.

B

An email from jennifer henneman september 25th, 2023.

B

Requesting denial of this request for conditional use or family farm has resided directly across the.

B

Street from the property in question for 38 years, I hope my children will experience the same quiet.

B

Enjoyment of this property for many years to come growing up in this rural community, you can.

B

Imagine the shock when we received the notice in the mail rather than our neighbors, reaching out.

B

Thank you, a september 25th 2023 email from.

B

Fred e kent.

B

He wants to put his views and emails because he's been sick lately and cannot.

B

Attend the meeting in person: let's see the applicant is not the property owner.

B

He is a corporate officer with a lot: oh total wine and more in cherry hill, new jersey.

B

More needs to be known about michael moran. He strongly opposes to any interest entrances.

B

Off davis, road davis road is not wide enough for two cars to pass. It has terrible drainage.

B

Which goes across the road onto my property if treacherous for snow and refreezing water.

B

We got the site minutes, uh there is a response to joe vance's request of.

B

Various state and local agencies from thomas harris permits and inspections.

B

Change of use permits are required for all buildings used for the manufacturing.

B

And sale of the wine, the site shall be in compliance with the maryland accessibility code.

B

There's a september 13th 2023 letter from christopher hahn, pe secretary.

B

To the planning commission, after having reviewed the information contained in the.

B

Attached analysis, the facts as presented in the application, the relevant portions.

B

Of the plan and in accordance with the land use article, this conditional use request if brandon.

B

Is consistent with the policies timing of the implementation of the plan, timing.

B

Of development, timing of rezoning development patterns, land uses and densities or intensities.

B

There's a september 13 2023 memo from the bureau of comprehensive planning.

B

The above reference bza case has been reviewed for consistency with the policies and recommendations.

B

Contained in the 2014 carroll county master plan, as amended in 2019 carroll, county water.

B

Sewer master plan and other functional plans, planning staff finds this request for conditional.

B

Use in variances variances on the property is consistent with the 2014 carroll county master.

B

Plan as amended in 2019 and would not have an adverse effect on the current use of the property.

B

Hearing notice was posted september 4th 2023.

B

For the public hearing, there's a response to joe vance's request to various state.

B

And local agencies from jay voigt zoning administrator, the proposed farm, alcohol.

B

Producer must meet all requirements of section 158.168 of the carroll county code.

B

There is a response to joe vance's request from laura matteus bureau.

B

Chief development review, the site plan shall be processed in accordance with chapter 155.

B

There is a response to joe vance's request from jp smith, jr program manager ag land preservation.

B

Program ag preservation is in favor of this type of business. However, there are a few requirements.

B

Needed for mouth approval, some amount of grapes must be grown on the farm within the next three.

B

To five years, the owner of the farm must have some ownership in the business of manufacturing wines.

B

Hearing notice was posted august 24 2023 by a zoning inspector scott robinson.

B

There's a response to joe vance's request of various state local agencies.

B

From janet o'meara bureau chief resource management comments, none.

B

And then there's an attached sheet, no comments.

B

There is a response to joe vance's request from andrea, hanley carroll, county environmental.

B

Health department proposed use may not be acceptable unless it is demonstrated that.

B

There is an adequate water supply and adequate area for the installation of an initial and two.

B

Replacement septic systems for the proposed use and existing uses of this property.

B

Then we have the application.

B

Application includes a number of photographs.

B

I would ask the file be entered into evidence, so moved seconded okay. We have a motion to move.

A

The file into evidence all those in favor aye aye, opposed we'll move the file into evidence.

A

Okay, before we get started here, the the process is, the applicant will go ahead and you can have.

A

Opening comments uh you can go ahead and call witnesses uh each witness after they get finished.

A

With their testimony, we'll have the opportunity to the the audience will have the opportunity to ask.

A

Questions of their testimony their testimony. Only then the board will do that after this process is.

A

Complete I'm assuming you're going to have two one or two witnesses. Then anyone from the audience can.

A

Go to the microphone and give their own testimony, so the first part of this is just asking questions.

A

Of the testimony that the applicant's going to give it's, it is an honor to actually have.

A

A former lieutenant governor here before us is, I don't think this has ever happened. No.

A

It hasn't happened as long as I'm here so mr rutherford. Well, thank you and good afternoon.

Y

Thank you for the opportunity. Oh I'm sorry, the news, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm so starstruck by.

A

It now you shouldn't be if anyone is going to testify here today, please stand and take the oath.

A

So if you're going to testify or ask questions.

A

Are you okay, there's only two more you you might as well stand up too just in case you might as.

A

Well, everybody else is okay, you can join the crowd. It's free. Please raise your right hand.

A

Do you swear or affirm, under the penalties of perjury, that the testimony you're about to give.

A

Is the truth, the whole truth and nothing, but the truth very good you can. You can be seated.

A

Mr rutherford well, thank you and uh for the record I am boyd rutherford and I'm here representing the.

Y

Applicant michael moran for his conditional use permit for the manufacturer production of wine for.

Y

Commercial purpose and a variance of a driveway off of gillis uh gillis coming into the property.

Y

The applicant is leasing a portion of a barn from legacy oaks llc and who is a minority.

Y

Owner in the operation, mr marion is here from legacy oaks. Oats oaks. Excuse me he is here.

Y

I don't anticipate calling him, but there may. If there are questions, I will call him as a witness.

Y

The applicant will be planting grapes on the property. However, he will be sourcing.

Y

In the interim grapes, regionally and possibly beyond the region with that.

Y

You can call your first witness my first witness is mr michael moran.

Y

And I would like to ask mr moran: can you explain your wait a minute? I'm sorry there's some another.

A

Step I've forgot to say so before you speak uh state your name, your address occupation,.

A

And spell for the record your last name: michael moran, m-o-r-a-n occupation, software development.

Z

Manager winemaker, I live in mount area which is in frederick what else was there.

A

um Spell for the record your last name: m-o-r-a-n, okay, 5391 annapolis, drive.

Z

Mount airy, okay! Thank you! Okay, mr moran, can you state what you plan to do on the.

Y

Property, yes, sir, I plan to produce wine on the property eventually plant, some vines and see.

Z

If I can use the uh the grapes that come from that property to make, produce and store wine.

Y

And maybe you can explain the process yes so making wine is is a very simple.

Z

Thing it's uh it's grapes, you smash them. You throw some yeast in there. Maybe some sugar.

Z

um And then, in about two years, you'll have wine if it's controlled as a matter of fact,.

Z

While we're doing the introductions, I just started making wine here so.

Z

I threw some yeast in this bag of grapes, I'm going to smash them up a little bit in.

Z

About two years, if I, if I manage it, we're gonna, have wine I'll save you a bottle.

Y

And just also for the record, um are you the owner of the property? I am not the owner of.

Z

The property and what type of interest will you have in the property? My interest is to.

Z

Lease about 700 square feet of a bottom of a bank barn to store my barrels and or tanks.

Z

For aging wine and for the board, I believe uh in the application there are pictures of.

Y

The barn built the interior and exterior, and if they don't, I have additional copies. If you need it.

D

They're in there okay they're in there, so we're good.

Y

um And uh mr moran, do you have any ownership interests and total wines.

Z

No sir, uh just for the record, I think the person may have been mistaken. David.

Y

Trone, who is uh the owner of total wine and is running for congress or running for the senate,.

Y

I'm just on that question that came in um put that we don't have any other questions.

Y

It's pretty straightforward. Anyone in the audience have any questions of mr moran's.

A

Testimony absolutely go to the and when you go to the microphone name, address occupation and spell.

A

For the record, your last name, my name, is brian hunter. My address is 5902 davis, road, woodbine.

O

Maryland, my occupation is procurement, director, cj, miller llc, and my last name is spelled h-u-n-t-e-r.

O

um So I didn't see see a drawing so the answer to this first question, probably.

O

Make the rest of these questions go away, but uh the driveway is located off of gillis or.

O

Off of davis, it is off of gillis, it is off of gillis, no further questions.

D

Okay, good, it might go ahead, go to the microphone name address occupation. It's.

A

Spelled for the record your last name, my name is kenny mcwhorter. My address is 2266 gillis.

AA

Road uh spelling of my last names m c, w h, I r t e r and I'm a program analyst, and so my.

AA

Question was uh more so like the intent, you said you were going to grow grapes, but is there any.

AA

Intent to open this up for the public to come to do wine, tastings or the purchase of wine.

Z

No sir, no tasting room at this time. I don't think that they, the land and the conservation.

Z

That the the land is under will will allow for that. So no just production and storage.

Y

For the record, the property is in the land preservation program, the mouth program.

AA

My second question is also the traffic that you intend that this driveway would receive.

AA

On a daily basis and on a weekly basis, so making wine really takes about 15 days a year.

Z

um Of those 15 days, I would imagine that I'd have one to two vehicles.

Z

um Maybe going up the driveway and down the davis road or whatever it may be davis or gillis. There's.

Z

Not a lot of activity that goes on with producing wine, the the wine kind of works itself, the grapes.

Z

The yeast you just have to make sure that you have a container for it, so I I couldn't imagine.

Z

That much more traffic down any road based on your answer on that question,.

AA

Could you educate me on why the drive boat needed to be widened.

Z

um I do not know why I was um when I was going through this process. A lady named.

Z

Teresa from carroll county had reached out to joe vance and had said that it might be a good.

Z

Idea to go ahead and submit the application for variance for the driveway to make it 18 feet wide.

Z

My understanding and mr marion is here, but I understand, there's no plan to actually widen.

Y

The driveway it's a variance from the 18 foot requirement. Let me interject, I'm not.

A

I'm not giving testimony, but in our code it says that the driveway must be 18 feet wide.

A

For these type of uses, and then we have we've had requests before, as we had one this morning,.

A

About the width of the driveway, reducing that to a certain width, so that's that's in our county.

A

Code is to have an 18-foot driveway, so there's no plan to wipe in the driveway we're asking.

Y

Essentially, for an exception and that's what the variance is the driveway the way it is now.

AA

Understood. Thank you. No further questions at this time. Okay, go ahead, you're, fine, there's.

A

Not a hundred of you back there I'll, let you have a second yeah. I just thought another well.

O

um Just kind of a follow-up to his question so will there be any activity on davis, road.

O

Whatsoever the reason I asked that there is a little bit of a farm access lane on davis, road.

O

Now, which isn't too far from my driveway and I'm just curious, if there'll be any activity.

O

Relating to this coming in off of davis, uh not that not that I imagine, I actually use that road.

Z

um Typically because I come from that direction, but if I can go around to the driveway I'll.

Z

Certainly, do that um and he's saved he's basically driving a yeah, I'm not necessarily talking about.

O

Him coming in on his personal vehicle, I'm talking about any uh obviously there's, no there's no.

O

Vineyard there now, so grapes will be coming to the site somewhere and being processed and and stored.

O

um The traffic for that would be coming in off of gillis. I that's how I understand. What's being said,.

O

And mr moran will actually be bringing the grapes in in his pickup truck yeah person's correct, okay,.

O

Yeah got it all right: cool thanks; okay, not a commercial vehicle board members. Any questions.

A

Of mr moran's testimony go ahead, um miss moran! If I can, I'm just trying to understand the scope.

L

Of your involvement with the property, so you, if, if I can characterize you, have a commercial.

L

Lease with the owner for the property, I have a lease of a portion of the bank, barn, okay and.

L

Is that what does at least what space is in and activities? Does that at least allow you.

L

To do that, lease allows me to store wine um in the bank. Barn doesn't allow you to plant grapes.

L

Because you test the problem that you may or may not be planting grapes in the future, so.

L

I'm just asking if the, if the lease includes the opportunity to be able to use the land to.

L

Plant grapes, I don't think that the lease per se states that I can plant grates, but I have talked.

Z

To the owner of the property- and um there are some fields out there- that he just doesn't want.

Z

To cut the grass anymore so he's offered to allow me to plant some grapes, sir, I understand and we.

Y

We anticip, I may we anticipate entering into a formal agreement with the land owner, because the.

Y

Landowner has taken uh ownership interest in the production and that will be part of.

Y

The formal agreement- that's very helpful to me. Thank you for sharing that okay, so.

L

What's that I have a question, I'm looking at the lease you indicated, you were thinking.

U

Roughly 700 square feet did I hear that I believe so and at least there's 154 feet.

U

Maybe I'm reading it um see 154 square feet confined and limited.

U

To the four stall pens and the milking trough.

Z

I'd have to what can we I've not seen nobody [ __ ]? Oh I'm sorry.

L

Oh, no, no! That's fine! No you're doing fine. Are there pictures there that you.

L

See those pictures identify the space, he says something.

Y

Released, it's a visual sorry. I don't have time to release it. 154.

U

Yes, that's like a very big space, that's 10 by 15.. I think it's bigger than that. I I.

Z

um If you can call mark, you could probably do call the other witness, okay and and that's.

A

Fine, we'll we'll go ahead and finish this up so we'll answer this question.

A

Any other questions on mr moran: uh yes, okay, so you're requesting a variance for the driveway.

U

If this board were not to grant that variance, can.

U

You tell us how that's a practical difficulty or a hardship for you.

U

That's one of the criteria that we need to establish has been met.

Y

Cost associated with widening that driveway or the limited purpose of a few cars. You know over.

Y

Several weeks or months a year seems to be unreasonable and it would be a major burden.

Y

On mr moran, who doesn't own the property, so he would have to pay for it for the ownership.

Y

Or for the landowner, and as you can imagine, asphalt is very expensive. The construction.

Y

Process was very expensive for something that is really a small operation to take place. So.

Y

um That's perfect in the record. Okay! Thank you. Any other questions of mr moran's. Testimony yeah.

A

Go ahead, we'll go ahead and go to the microphone. We normally don't.

A

Allow you the second bite at the apple, but we're good.

AA

All right, thank you. um I was just curious with the driveway, with the current width of it is.

Y

It's approximately 10 feet, but mr marion can can talk to talk about that. Okay, so.

A

Mr marion is going to testify. Okay. Thank you, okay! Thank you, mr moran. Okay, mr rutherford, you.

A

Want to call your next witness yes, uh michael moran, from legacy oaks, llc mark mary, I'm sorry.

Y

You can come to the table if you're a witness, okay, you can come right to the table.

A

Name address occupation and spell for the record your last name. My name is mark maring.

AB

M-A-R-I-N-G my address is 5911 davis road woodbine maryland. I am retired from the federal government.

AB

um I am a owner, along with my sister of legacy oaks. It's a family farm, it's been in the family.

AB

For over 100 years, okay uh as american new uh state, how approximately how wide is the.

Y

Current driveway off of jealous the main part of the driveway, I would say, would be around 10.

AB

Feet wide I blow it dry blow all the leaves and the pine cones off of it. um Every time I mow the.

AB

Grass and my mowers five feet wide, so I have to go up one side down the other side, so I'm thinking.

AB

It's around 10 feet wide where it meets gillis road, uh it's much wider to allow access from both.

AB

Directions into the driveway when the driver gets up to the house where the garages are in.

AB

The barn it widens up a little bit more, maybe 12 feet and there's a parking pad at there. Probably.

AB

20 by 30 feet, it's all blacktop. It's gonna be my next question and currently.

Y

um You have a lease with mr marion. Is that correct? I mean mr moran. Excuse me yeah. Yes, we do.

Y

Can you answer that question about the the square footage? That's included, four stalls.

AB

And a little area where the milking parlor used to be when the farm was a dairy farm.

AB

um The four stalls are probably 12 by 12 and there's a little area. That's a little larger.

AB

Outside alongside those stalls, so I'd have to do the calculations of what that works out to be so.

A

The seven the 700 feet would that be the total volume, the the total square footage of the barn.

AB

No, I don't that's not the total square footage, okay of the space that I'm leasing. It's about part.

AB

Of the space from where we sit to the wall there, okay, so I just kind of got submitted so awesome.

AB

There are also other areas, part of the barn there's, the old, the part of the milking parlor.

AB

That's not he's not leasing and as a what we used to call the bullpen where the bull was kept for.

AB

Breeding purposes and he's not at least in that area either I don't have the lease in front of me.

Y

Unfortunately- and I apologize for that, but I think if it does state the ones 170, it's probably per.

Y

Ler area, because it's four separate areas out of there or little birthing stones, earth, installs.

AB

Yeah, that's what they were. They were birthing stalls for dairy cows when they had the cast.

A

Okay, any any questions of mr maring's testimony, one one, if I may so relative to the operation.

L

uh Any outdoor storage, large equipment, large vehicles, things like that. uh No sir.

L

You store the product inside the barn or outside the bar, I'm talking about the raw grapes or.

L

Do you produce, do you make do you process them immediately? Upon arrival, uh yes, sir, I will process.

Z

The grapes, as soon as I bring them onto the farm and they will be moved from the outside the press,.

Z

Pad there's a little pad on the side, I'll move those grapes into the barn, because you you, the.

Z

Temperature is very important when it's fermenting, so we want to make sure that we can regulate the.

Z

Temperature somewhat so we put it inside and it being a bank bar and it's below grade. So the.

Z

Temperatures, I wouldn't say constant, but it's when it's 90 degrees outside it might be 80.

Z

Degrees in there, and vice versa, to understood and- and you said, the process it takes about 15 days.

L

Is that what I heard you say so to ferment to ferment grapes right depending on how you want.

Z

Your wine, the yeast, will consume the sugars in the grapes or the sugars that I I add to it. If.

Z

You want the sweet wine. I can cut off fermentation early, meaning that the the yeast do not consume.

Z

All the sugars that would be called your residual sugar and on your label. You have to claim that so.

Z

The fermentation process takes anywhere from 7 to 11 days, okay, so that's I've really asked the the.

L

Incorrect question I apologize for that. Well, I'm trying to understand is the the traffic flow in.

L

And out to support the operation, I'm assuming that you produce wine on the perpetual basis.

Z

um Once a year, sir, once a year for what period of time, I will ferment for two weeks and then.

Z

It'll be in storage. Okay, so you always do one batch. That's it we're lack of a better word.

Z

It's only one harvest right. Grapes only only happen once understood again. You understand, I'm.

L

Just trying to understand the traffic okay, thank you very much right and, if I may add.

Z

um The only traffic flow is, is my truck really, I'm the only one that's going to be up there doing it.

Z

Unless mark wants to help me out or boy you're, not busy, we can there's not going to be a lot of.

Z

Traffic there understood thank you very much, I'm not busy any other questions. Can I make a comment.

AB

Please absolutely okay. um As I said earlier, the farm has been in my family for over 100 years.

AB

um And as we as you know, farms you have to have a lot of acreage and a lot of prada to maintain the.

AB

Farm, my sister and I who own the farm, the farm, does not make enough money to support itself.

AB

We have to supplement the farm income every year to pay assurance, pay the property taxes.

AB

Maintain the buildings maintain the houses on the property that my stepmother lives in and.

AB

And we entered into this agreement with mr moran just to have a little bit more money coming in to.

AB

Support the farm to keep the farm as a farm and not have to go out of the ag preservation program.

AB

And do something that we don't want to do. We want the farm to to be in here my generation and my.

AB

Sisters and my generations to come as a farm. Thank you any other questions of any of the testimony.

A

Board members, we good.

A

Okay, so presentation of testimony and evidence is now closed and some asians are in order. Okay,.

Y

Well, thank you. I want to thank the sport again. um We uh effing field is very straightforward.

Y

With regard to the request of the applicant, it is consistent with the the zone current zoning.

Y

There as agricultural, it's an ag related operation, it uh it complies with the preservation programs.

Y

Maryland agricultural preservation program- and we we see no reason that the sport shouldn't approve.

Y

Our application for conditional use, as well as variance on the road, not road, excuse me driveway.

A

Okay, hearing and record of this case is now closed in accordance with the.

A

Open meetings, actor maryland, the board will now consider the case board members.

G

um I think it's uh the the comments made by mr maring are very important here, that it.

G

Helps preserve form and therefore it's agricultural usage, so I don't have any.

G

Other comments to make beyond I agree with the request. I don't see any problem with it.

T

I agree with it as well towards you a second. uh I agree with the request as well. I think it.

U

Clearly meets the schultz versus fritz standard and, as far as the variance for the driveway.

U

It would be an unreasonable hardship to require an 18-foot driveway for such a small operation.

U

Mr snyder ditto, the only thing I want to say about the driveway is: I mean we're not talking.

A

That many trips and the existing driveway it was, we went in when we did our site inspections.

A

uh Has actually diagonal speed bumps to divert the water off of it, because it is rather steep.

A

Driveway and to to to make that at 18 foot going up that grade would be absolutely ridiculous.

A

Especially when you consider the number of trips and that's well, that's one of the it's one of the.

A

Things that we look at is the number of trips on on these driveways code, says 18, but we can.

A

You can come before us to get that reduced. So um with that board members come make a motion.

G

If you wish, okay and case number 6470 before the board of zoning appeals, the board approve.

G

The conditional use for the manufacturing of wine and a variance for the driveway.

F

Second, okay: we've got a motion, we've got a second. Is there any further discussion on the motion.

A

Seeing none all in favor, aye aye, all opposed no motion carries. Our oral decision will become.

A

Final upon a written decision which will be issued within 30 days unless otherwise.

A

Extended by this board, the board's decision may be appealed by filing a petition for judicial.

A

Review with the clerk of the circuit court for carroll county, in accordance with the provisions.

A

Of chapter 200 title vii of the maryland rules of procedure, the appeal must be filed within 30 days.

A

Of the date of the board's written decision, thank you very much. This hearing is adjourned.