Carroll County, MD Carroll County Planning and Zoning Commission, 4 May 2022

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From YouTube: Planning & Zoning Commission of Carroll County, MD May 4, 2022

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https://www.carrollcountymd.gov/government/boards-commissions/planning-zoning-commission/

A

Good evening uh this is jeff weathers, chair of the carroll county planning.

A

And zone commission and I'm going to call the may 4th 2022 meeting to order welcome.

A

Everyone, and uh with that, I would ask that we establish a quorum. Please.

B

Hey mr wathers, I am here miss kirkner here, mr lester here, mr hoff, here mr kane, here, mr smith,.

B

B

Commissioner, wants here secretary eisenberg.

B

Here, mr chair, please let the record reflect that seven members are present. The most we've had in a.

B

While and we do have a quorum very good, thank you. Please stand for the pledge of allegiance.

A

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to.

A

The republic for which it stands, one nation, under god, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

C

All right next item on our agenda is review and approval of the agenda itself. Are there any.

D

Changes to the agenda: no, there are no changes to this evening's agenda. Well, in that case, the.

A

Chair would be happy to entertain a motion that we approve the agenda. I move. We approve the agenda.

A

Is there a second? Second all right? We have a motion, a second all in favor.

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Anyone opposed to the agenda. Okay, very good. The agenda will stand approved, uh we'll move on to.

A

Item six, which is the administrative report, madam secretary I'll, turn it over to you all.

E

Right well good evening, everyone and welcome to our newest member stephen smith. I'm sorry! This.

E

Isn't in person for our first meeting, but you get a taste of our virtual meeting format um so would.

E

You like to say a few words just to introduce yourself to the group and the viewing audience.

F

My name's uh stephen, I uh live over in manchester um very happy to be a part of this and very happy.

F

And excited to uh to continue to serve or start to serve, I guess so um nice to meet everybody.

E

All right well welcome and thank you for being here and you'll get indoctrinated soon.

E

Enough and we'll have a one-on-one in a few weeks and do our planning onboarding process.

E

And get you up and running so that way when you do attend the meetings you know where.

E

We are, but I think this was a perfect meeting for you to be at this evening.

E

um Because we do have so many new members and a lot of turnover in the last few years.

E

I did ask um our planning commission attorney uh mr almond, to be here to give you.

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uh Open meetings, act, training and he'll go over that as the next agenda item um as well and then.

E

Again I'll do this again in person, but um andrew gray, he is a planner from the city of westminster.

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He has joined our planning staff as a planner. um We've had an open position and we were able.

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To meet with andrew and um he applied and uh now he's on board and he's going to be a.

E

Great asset to carroll county and our planning team, so andy did you want to turn on your.

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Camera, if you can or say hello, hello, everyone, how are you good welcome.

A

Thank you. It's it's good to be here. um Working for carroll, county government.

A

Well, we look forward to uh having you as part of our team, so thanks so much and welcome aboard.

D

Thank you and look forward to it absolutely well. Thank you, andrew um and then that's all. I have for.

E

This evening's administrative matters again, our next meeting- um will be in person and uh towards.

E

The end of the month may 17th very good. Thank you, madam secretary. I just want to add my uh welcome.

A

To steven we're so glad to have you on board, it's so nice to have you here and I hope you'll find.

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This experience to be um enjoyable, sometimes challenging. um Personally, I think, enriching. We.

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Get to deal with things that matter to uh to our fellow citizens here in the county, so it's really.

A

Nice to have you on board, so thank you. Thank you very much and I'm very much looking forward to it.

A

And I want to be wherever commissioner wants is, because that looks like a better place to be.

A

Enjoying our meeting this evening.

G

Just taking advantage of the outside jeff because right now, there's no rain and uh you know.

G

You gotta, you gotta, take advantage of it while you can so thank you, and I also wanna welcome stephen.

G

uh uh He comes with uh incredibly uh just an incredibly impressive resume and I think.

G

He will fit in and uh be an integral part of this group, so uh welcome aboard stephen and.

G

How can you go wrong with a guy who lives in district one, and I'm happy with that.

F

Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, commissioner, very good. Well then, we'll.

A

Move on to uh item seven and uh open meetings, act, training, and I think you would mention that.

A

um Jim allman is going to lead us through this, so jim floors. Oh thank you, mr chairman, and I would.

H

Also just like to welcome mr smith, um you know you're going to be part of an exclusive club, so.

H

Exclusive that you get to learn about the carroll county ethics laws and open meetings, act that.

H

Now applies to you as a member of the planning commission, so um I'll get uh started. Thank you.

H

Yeah trying to figure out why the slice is not working.

H

H

So can you can people see my screen.

H

Yes, okay, so um basically, state law requires uh certain boards and public officials.

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And public bodies to operate in a manner uh open to the public, um the state passed.

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uh What's known as the open meetings act, the oma, because it's essential in a democratic society.

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That accept unlimited and special appropriate circumstances that uh the public business.

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Be conducted openly publicly and the public be allowed to the performance of its public.

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Officials and um deliberations and all the decisions involved in making public policy.

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um So the uh the maryland open meetings act um as I was saying, so we have the scope so.

H

uh The open meetings act applies to all public bodies in the state and under maryland law. Local.

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Planning commissions um are considered a public body and therefore are subject to the act. The.

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Commission was created by law and uh commissioner members were um appointed to this board by carroll.

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County uh commissioners, so you're uh you're bound by the uh the open meetings act so uh getting.

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Into sort of the heart of the act, it's um what is a public meeting, so uh the open meeting act.

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It only applies when the planning commission meets and a public body under the law meets.

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When it convenes a quorum of the body to consider or transact public business, so two requirements.

H

There you have to meet and have enough for a quorum and consider or transact public business.

H

So the following circumstances constitute a meeting under the act, so a quorum of all public.

H

Body members present at the actual meeting like tonight um a quorum is, would be deemed uh present.

H

By virtue of communications, that would rise to the level of a meeting so like, if you guys were on.

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um You know the planning, commission, member text group or an email chain.

H

That would be considered a public, uh a public meeting um if the quorum comes together by.

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Chance or us for social reasons, but nevertheless use that occasion to discuss public business.

H

That's a uh that's a meeting, that's covered by the open meetings act and uh if members.

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uh Conducted uh public business by a device purposely uh designed to avoid uh the requirements.

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Of the app so that that would be sort of an email chain or a text group where you guys.

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Are kind of talking offline to kind of get around the requirements of the uh the open meetings act.

H

So a quorum um is a majority of all members of a public body and for this uh planning and zoning.

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Commission, the corners four members- and I think I can speak for uh linda and laura that we are.

H

Very grateful to have um the new members on so uh hopefully we'll have no.

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Quorum issues um in the near future and um a quorum is deemed present in uh several ways.

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um At a natural planning commission meeting like tonight, or, as I mentioned before, through.

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The exchange of communication emails phone calls text messages that rise to the level of a meeting.

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Through an invasive device to avoid the meeting openly so again, any.

H

Communications, you guys have together it's four of you guys having a conversation together.

H

And you're discussing public business transacting public business, the open meetings act applies.

H

So um public bodies have been found to have met um in the following circumstances. I just wanted.

H

To give some examples, a quorum of members in one place at one time can be created, regardless of the.

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Group's location or intent to gather example like if enough members met at a coffee shop.

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By happenstance and that would create a quorum, but there would be no violation of the public.

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Meetings act as long as they didn't discuss public business and, um depending on the circumstances, the.

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Exchange of electronic communications among the quorum can um constitute a uh a meeting.

H

So moving on to notice and agendas, so uh under the act up, we're required to give reasonable public.

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Notice and uh make the agenda of bail available, and um that's basically as soon as practical.

H

I guess not I'll just keep going um so. Basically, we need to get reasonable public notice and that's.

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As soon as practical after um the fixed date and time of the next meeting, um so it can't be last.

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Minute we can't you know, for example, like today's meeting started at six, we couldn't at 5 45 to say.

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Hey we're having a planning commission meeting tonight, um that's not allowed and uh we need to.

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Make the agenda available before the meeting that contains all known items or topics to be discussed.

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And indicates whether the public body expects to go and close during any portion of the meeting.

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There's some leeway under the law that allows the the commissioner or any public body really to.

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Add items on the agenda as long as they weren't um sort of known beforehand, if they're sort of.

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An agenda piece that um the commission knows about it can't just keep that that item off the agenda.

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Until the last minute, and then add it on, if it knew about it prior to uh prior to that time,.

H

Now the open meeting requirements of the open meeting act, um kind of the most important part.

H

So the public has the right to observe a meeting, and the public has a right to access to a physical.

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Meeting space, which means that um planning, commission meetings or any public meetings.

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Can be held in a place where the the public is not permitted like a detention center which actually.

H

Happened and was an actual violation of the open meetings act and um the public also has a right to.

H

uh A virtual meeting space, so there are sometimes circumstances where um the planning commission.

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Can close the session uh to the public under the statute? There's 15 exceptions that permit.

H

The public body to exclude the public but for our purposes, the exceptions that are most relevant and.

H

Common are personnel matters, privacy or reputation, issues and legal advice, and the law lays out a.

H

Pretty technical and detailed process on um on how to go about that and um providing notice and.

H

Notes of what was discussed uh during the uh during the closed session. But for the.

H

Open meetings act that was sort of your thousand foot view of um of what the stash requires a.

H

Pretty uh it's a lot of common sense, so I was just wondering if um anyone had any questions.

A

Pete, you have a question, you good all right, jim. I just have one quick question and that is.

A

First of all, thank you that was great. um Is there any requirement that we received this training.

A

Periodically, yes, so um under the uh the land use article, um you are uh required to.

H

To take training in you know various uh parts of I guess the land use are going planning and zoning.

H

And part of that is the ethics and um open meetings act. Just um so members are aware.

H

uh About the kind of um you know, the state policy towards transparency and um and having you know,.

H

The public be able to witness and participate in um in our meetings. So that's something that.

H

That the planning commission members have to do when they, uh when they're newly appointed.

A

And then I guess related to that. um Can it be that.

A

We have a designated member or someone who takes the training or it has to be the entire. I mean I.

D

Know, we've all do it and stephen will do it uh in the coming weeks, but um as we go forward, can.

A

Can one of us receive training and or does the whole commission have to receive it.

H

Best practice for all the members to receive training- I mean technically yes, um but it.

H

Would be best practice? Because if there's a situation where that member, who received the.

H

Open meetings after training, for whatever reason, wasn't able to make it to a meeting and the.

H

Meeting went on and there was some issue that came up and it was like well, no one was trained in the.

H

Open meetings act then um there there could be an issue um there under the statute. So.

I

Okay, well, it seems like this ought to be something that maybe you can put on our.

A

Agenda, at least what annually is that, would that be yeah? I'd be more than happy too. Okay,.

E

So so jim I have a question: has anything changed with the virtual meeting aspect for open meetings.

E

And I'm sorry, if I missed this, I stepped out of the room for a minute. No, no, it hasn't um virtual.

H

Meetings especially and the general assembly sort of addressed this um due to cove, they kind of they.

H

Treat it just like it was a um a regular meeting like an in-person meeting. So all the requirements.

H

Of an in-person meeting are um applied to virtual meetings um as best you know, practical.

A

Very good, any other questions for mr allman jim. It's uh mike kane, I I know um is: is there.

J

A requirement for recording the meetings. I know we we keep. There's minutes kept uh right.

H

Right there are minutes kept and that that's a requirement. um That's not only a requirement under.

H

The open meetings act, but on also the land use article that governs uh the planning commission.

H

Like I said uh before, the open meetings act covers every public body. So that's you know.

H

The board of commissioners, county councils, general assembly and all the commissions.

H

And basically any public body that does public business um and yes, there have to be minutes and.

H

It's not required to be recorded as long as there are minutes and those minutes are um published. The.

H

uh The general assembly, actually this past session, which ended a few weeks ago, um added uh more.

H

uh Stringent requirements on when um the minutes of a meeting had to be posted, um I think it's.

H

Like a week after the at least a week after the um the meeting ended in place right and if four of us.

J

Would happen to meet in a coffee house and discuss public business? One of us would be responsible for.

J

Entering or submitting those notes, as as minutes to the meeting and things like that,.

H

Yeah yeah, so it would just be best not to do that right.

H

Because then, the public's not aware and there's there was no no no agenda. So no.

J

It's it's really sticky. I completely agree, but yeah can I just comment sorry about the minutes.

B

We're talking about the minutes, um so I just just procedurally how you get the.

B

Minutes and what happens to the minutes is um usually the day after the meeting. I will.

B

Do the draft minutes and then they go through if it's for a business meeting.

B

I do send a copy to development review for them to read and review from their projects if they.

B

Have any corrections or changes and they go to linda as well for her changes and then they're.

B

Sent to you all um for them to discuss as we do at the meetings. If there are any other changes.

B

And to approve them, I don't post them until the meeting where they've been approved and sometimes.

B

That can be more than a week only because we haven't had a meeting or something like that.

B

Just so that everyone knows like what the process is for that behind the scenes.

E

And actually, jim, I think the law ended up being that they had to be approved minutes, so they.

E

Ended up striking down really okay yeah because originally like it had to be like the next day.

H

And then the maryland association of counties kind of brought up the point that laura was bringing up like well normally minutes are approved at the following meeting.

H

So it just practically that's how it should work.

A

Well, I will say my experience on the planning and zoning commission has been the word punctilious.

A

Comes to mind, I mean we pay great attention to detail um in terms of what we can and can't do.

A

And I know that even when we've had breaks and we've like a lunch break, if we all go.

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Somewhere to get lunch, we were very careful to say you know we're together, but we're not discussing.

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uh Any any business and we don't and uh even during any breaks when we step off uh the.

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Deaths, you know we make sure that we um are not talking about public business um if there are.

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Four of us or more together, um so I can just tell you I'm happy to represent that we are very.

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Careful to make sure that we are in compliance with that, we want to make sure everybody can.

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Hear our deliberations and our comments and the public can uh can offer their own as we.

A

Make any decisions that affect the good of the of the county? I don't think this requires a.

K

Motion but laura, please make sure that the minutes reflect that jeff used the word potilius. Thank you.

A

It's my word of the day: calendar.

A

It's going immensely right, um very good, any uh jim jim anything else for us. No, I think.

H

Unless anyone has any further questions, do that also cover the ethics portion? Are we just at.

E

Open meetings I mean I could cover the ethics. If you want me to, I would need to re. Have my screen.

H

Reshared, I think you saw just like an additional few minutes if we could, because we awesome.

H

Yeah, that would be great just um because also we just did our annual.

E

Disclosure update for the ethics board- that's something that this group has to do annually is.

E

Disclosure holdings within carroll county, and so um if jim can just briefly go over that for.

E

You I think that would be really helpful too and then that'll cover the major stuff. Given our new.

E

Membership as well and a good refresher for all of us, thanks jim so again, um ethics, it's this is very.

H

Common sense, um common sense, stuff and I'll try to be uh very quick, so obviously everyone.

D

Here knows, the purpose of uh an ethics statute is just to prove to the public and show to the public.

H

That the public has confidence that the decisions you're making as planning commission members are.

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Impartial you're using independent judgment, and you don't have any financial interests that are.

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In conflict with any uh public interest or anything that you're discussing or.

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Making decisions on so the ethics ordinance applies to all carroll county officials, employees.

H

And all boards and their members, including um the planning commission members, so uh most.

H

Importantly, I think, for the purposes of the uh the planning commission is just the prohibited conduct.

H

And conflicts of interest. So um while there are exceptions, as there are exceptions to everything.

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In the law, um members cannot participate in any matter um to which your knowledge.

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That you or a relative of yours has an interest and any matter um in which the following is.

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A party so a business entity in which you have a direct financial interest of which.

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uh You should reasonably be expected to know or a business entity for you or a relative.

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Who is an officer director trustee employee? So what this kind of means for you is that if you.

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Become aware of a conflict of interest that affects your ability to vote impartially on.

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A matter before the commission, you must refuse yourself and the process to do that would be to.

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Inform the chair and step away from the bench and not participate in any further discussion.

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As a conflicted member you're considered absent for the portion of the meeting and may be allowed.

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To participate as a citizen when the commission is receiving the uh the public comment on that matter,.

H

So solicitation or acceptance of gifts um you may not solicit a gift and or accept a gift.

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From anyone who's conducting business with the county or has financial interests or is.

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A lobbyist of any kind um you you are allowed, you know reasonable beverages or reasonable.

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Expenses, meals, beverages uh to receive ceremonial gifts, um unsolicited gifts of uh nominal value or.

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Tickets or free admission um to something that's just generally open uh to the public.

H

And uh just to piggyback off of what linda was referring to earlier is, um as a member of the.

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Planning and zoning commission you need to file a uh financial disclosure report no later than.

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April 30th of the calendar year during your tenure and as members of the board, you need to disclose.

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Any interest or employment which could require disqualification from participation on the.

H

Commission, um the business entities you're a part of and gifts um if any, and I think.

H

um Those are the most relevant uh sections of the county ethics organs.

H

uh That you should be aware of so again, if you have any questions regarding the.

H

Ethics, ordinance or the open meetings act uh love to uh love to answer them.

A

So, first of all, thanks for doing that, spur-of-the-moment that was very impressive. Jim.

A

The uh just a couple, quick questions, because these come up sometimes.

A

And you- and I might be wrong about this, so that's why I want to put it out there. My recollection.

A

Is that we changed our rules of procedure a year or two ago to address the situation where.

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A member recuses themselves they step away from the bench they're absent, so the alternate can.

A

Then participate as a full member for that um matter. That's then pending is that is that your.

H

Recollection, that's under our uh that's under the carroll county planning, commission, administrative.

H

Rules, that's correct right and I think we changed them to clarify that in the past. I'm not sure it.

A

Was clear, or maybe it was the opposite um and do you mind speaking to maybe the difference if.

A

If you feel comfortable doing this, the difference between recusal and abstention yeah, absolutely so.

H

A recusal is when you know, or you should know, that you have some sort of a conflict of interest with.

H

An issue: that's it's your responsibility to recuse yourself, which is alerting the chair. It says: hey.

H

You know I have a financial interest in this business that has a development, has a site plan.

H

In front of the commission, so I can't be a part of the discussion can't be a part of the decision.

H

I'm just basically for that agenda item. I'm not a member of the planning commission, I'm absent.

H

um So that's recusal and you have to do it under that circumstance. You can abstain uh from voting.

H

On any issue, for any reason you want, I mean that's a practice that uh we don't favor, but.

H

You're allowed to abstain from um voting on any issue, but you don't have that requirement where.

H

The issue you're voting on you have some sort of conflict of interest or financial interest in.

A

Thank you and I think what I've seen in practice, at least with our group, is that.

A

Where the conflict of interest standard is not met, you know you don't have a direct financial.

A

Interest in whatever's appearing before you, but there might be a relative or close friend,.

A

Or something where there's an appearance of a conflict or maybe just calls into question.

A

Whether you appear to be uh objective or impartial, I've seen any of us have.

A

Said you know under those circumstances, I'll abstain, and I think the other consequence is.

A

If you absane, then the alternate does not have a right to vote in your in your place.

A

Okay, that's correct because you're still um present, whereas if you refuse your absence.

A

Right right, excellent, maybe too much detail, but I figure while we're on.

A

The subject might as well uh might as well uh take a look in the weeds.

A

G

All right, mr mr chair, mr chair, I will say uh this is commissioner lance uh that I'm proud.

G

Of the fact that carroll county is one of the most transparent counties in the.

G

State in my work with the maryland association and counties, I've seen how others uh do these.

G

Meetings I've watched that as there have been violations of many meetings across the state.

G

But it's important to know that we pay really close attention to this and to take it a step.

G

Further, uh we just went through our budget process which, by the way, is entirely done.

G

In front of the cameras, so uh there is no other county in the state of maryland.

G

That does their budget like we do uh and that's incredibly challenging to do, because when you're.

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In front of the camera you have to be, you know you have to be mindful the fact that you're going.

G

To be talking about people, uh positions, etc, so uh I hope the public understands that carol.

G

Is is really really good with conducting uh these these open meetings, and uh I can't think of the.

G

Last time that there was an ethics violation uh with any of the electeds here, uh so I just.

G

Want to make that point, because I think it's critically important for folks to understand.

G

That we do take this incredibly serious. Thank you. Thank you, commissioner yeah. It is something to be.

A

Proud of, uh and we starting to take it seriously so jim, thank you for coming in tonight and doing.

A

The presentation- um and I think doing this at least annually is a you know, a good thing to do.

A

We will move on then to item eight, which is agriculture and conservation. Zoning text.

A

uh Discussion, so I will turn the floor over to linda, I guess to yes walk it with us.

E

Yeah um and if I can share my screen control room, please.

E

They tried to give me control earlier and I didn't want to take it.

E

All right, can you all see my screen perfect.

E

um Go to meeting's gotten so much better, because now I can see what you see it gives you like a.

E

Little insight which we did not have before so I like that. I, like the improvements to go to meeting.

E

um So at our last regularly scheduled meeting in april, we had a brief presentation by hannah weber.

E

Toward the end of the meeting regarding our agriculture conservation districts.

E

And um accessory dwelling units, so she gave you a very brief presentation: I'm going to go through.

E

That again quickly, just to kind of refresh your memory and what we are looking for tonight is.

E

Direction on where you want to go with adus um in terms of keeping our code as written with the.

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Attached component or if looking at our code and making adjustments to allow detached as well so.

E

We're looking for direction on that and then, if, yes, that you want to see us move toward having.

E

Legislation that allows for detached adus um what restrictions would you want to go with that.

E

Such as size limitations, distance limitations from the primary principal residents, things like that.

E

So with that- and I also have with us tonight um some of our concept- team members and.

E

Staff that worked on this, so hannah weber and tiffany foster intimately familiar with this.

E

um As well as price, and then I know, chris hine and jay um have been very involved in this as.

E

Well, during our work group discussions with the ag team, I mean this was very.

E

Very it was talked about in great deal and no consensus was made. You all received a.

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Piece of paper the other week, an informational paper from land and resource management, about.

E

Their particular stance regarding detached adus, so with that our current ag um code allows for.

E

One or two family dwelling units currently on site and I'll have some picture examples.

E

um Plus an attached adu and I'm jay can clarify uh this when we get on with our presentation.

E

But my understanding from talking to zoning um is that you can have one attached adu per one or.

E

Two family duplex, but I don't believe both units. If you have a duplex, gets an attached adu for each.

E

One but, but again I I need I need a clarification on that we had some discussions um with his staff.

E

And I think they had some internal discussions as well. Conservation district um only allows for.

E

An attached adu they do not. That district does not allow for the two family dwelling.

E

So currently in ag, we can do this. This is a typical duplex and, as you can see, there's.

E

Two separate entrances: they have two separate addresses for each entrance within the the duplex.

E

um And this is what's currently allowed in our county code, so we already have that that the.

E

Two full I mean a duplex, you one could argue, is like almost like a townhome just two. um So.

E

It allows for two full families to already be on that property um where an accessory dwelling unit.

E

um Would not really be conducive to an entire family um to be living in that situation, but how.

E

Are codes currently written is that we do allow two families and an attached adu on our ag zone.

E

And so again, in our ag code 158.070 we do allow two family, and this is I made this myself as you.

E

Can see I'm very graphically inclined with my my clip uh my screen capture here and.

E

Try to put together two single houses into a duplex. So um sorry about that. But that's.

E

Exactly what we're talking about is two distinct units with two distinct addresses.

E

um On an agricultural site, conservation does not allow for the two family. Just the ag.

E

So again, what is an adu, as we said before, it's an accessory dwelling unit, but it is not a full.

E

uh Dwelling unit, so to speak, it's accessory to the primary principal use in this case would be.

E

A residence in either the agricultural zone or the conservation zone so we're allowing an accessory.

E

Dwelling unit that shares a single family lot with a larger primary dwelling. um You know these.

E

We've heard in recent years, the term of granny flats or even tiny houses on a piece of property.

E

um They can be attached or detached and speaking in general terms now um and then you know what.

E

Do they provide they provide practical housing options for families of elderly, disabled, empty.

E

Nesters young adults um within your property, but not really part of your. They have a bedroom in.

E

Your home, so some different examples, as you can see from the graphics is, you could have a detached.

E

And attached you know some people take a loft um or an attic space and convert that as well.

E

To a separate unit um or basement yeah and have a separate entrance um a lot of things times, we.

E

See above the garage or even a garage converted um either attached or detached garage converted.

E

Into an accessory dwelling unit, so those are all very we've seen all of these um throughout.

E

The county state nation I mean this- is you know kind of this is pretty typical.

E

So what do we currently allow again um in our code is a portion of a single family dwelling.

E

That shall provide complete, independent living facilities. So again we're talking. You know it has.

E

A area for sleeping eating cooking, but it's separate from the main living area. Even if it's.

E

In the basement, it would have like a separate kitchen bathroom, a complete area to be able to.

E

Be self-contained um and we're talking the same thing with detached as well so and the detach.

E

We're talking on the primary lap, it's physically separate from the primary dwelling, so these could.

E

Be in terms of a detached garage, that's converted to an adu or um a tiny house separate from the.

E

Main dwelling that would be accessory to um and subordinate to the main primary residence.

E

Both types of adus must have direct access from the outside, so even if you have an.

E

Attic, that's converted to an apartment, and you actually see a lot of this on main street in.

E

Westminster where they have you know two or three levels, sometimes they're split into apartments.

E

But let's just say one of those is an accessory dwelling. There is a separate stairwell. It goes.

E

To that entrance on that second or third floor um in our current code, the property owner must occupy.

E

One of the units on site, so, whether that be the primary unit or the adu, I'm say, for instance, I'm.

E

Elderly, I don't want my big home, but I don't want to leave my my my property any longer. Then I would.

E

Have um an adu- and I might live on that, but then rent out my big home to a family. Let's just say.

E

um We do require additional off street parking spaces and um the same regulations for wall and.

E

Septic infrastructure um have to be met for the carroll county health department.

E

um The differences in regulation of attached and detached adus is that attached have a size.

E

Limitation of 800 square feet or a third of the floor area of the original dwelling.

E

No more than two bedrooms and they are allowed in both ag and conservation district.

E

The detached, so this is a little misleading within our code, it's not very straightforward and how.

E

It's written because we really don't allow a true detached accessory dwelling unit in ag and that's.

E

Where we're coming to you and conservation as it's currently written um because to be.

E

A true adu: it must be subordinate to the primary dwelling. The only way we can get a secondary adu.

E

Detached is to have that lot be able to be built upon. So then you could just build a full house.

E

The point of this is to allow for the accessory component in a smaller, affordable living space.

E

um And maybe only construct on lots that are lgbt subdivided and they have no size limitations. So.

E

Again, you can build a full home what's being with the direction we're seeking tonight is.

E

Having a detached dwelling allowed on an unsubdividable lot, that is restricted by.

E

Distance and size limitations that will be the guidance we're seeking.

E

So again, as I said earlier about the work group uh recommendations um is that the.

E

Size limit of accessory dwellings currently for the attached is up to 800 square feet.

E

um The work group recommendation was to remove the one-third stipulation just keep it at the 800.

E

Square feet: maximum for the accessory dwelling and then uh for the work group. Recommendations um to.

E

Codify the zoning administrators requirements of attached adus must be no more than 15 feet away.

E

From the principal connect uh principal dwelling connected by a livable space, so, for instance,.

E

We were saying that you can't have like a dead space. You can't have like a breezeway.

E

Or on some other type of unconditioned uh heated, um unlivable area, attaching the two um and then as.

E

Far as the detached goes, um there was no consensus um from the group itself on how to handle that.

E

There were some cams that felt you know detached if you have the same parameters as the attached.

E

There is no difference, it's not doubling the density, um it's just a different location, so.

E

You're just moving the location from here to here um and the other components that uh some.

E

In the group are struggling with, is that is that doubling density and we're already allowing two.

E

Units in the form of a duplex um so to speak on ag as it is anyway. So how would this be different.

E

If you choose to do an adu instead, so just a couple issues again, as I just said about the.

E

Increasing and density the co currently allows two family drawings, as I showed in the picture before.

E

um On a single lot and that's a buy right, there's no special exception conditional, nothing with.

E

That um and limiting the size and distance from the main dwelling, we keep the adu from.

E

Becoming a separate additional drawing, I know there's some concern that with them we would.

E

Have a separate additional dwelling and at some point in time someone could subdivide that off.

E

That is not the intent, and that can be codified with this is that the accessory.

E

Is accessory, it has to stay with the principal um permitted use and could not be subdivided off.

E

um And as far as well and separate septic implications, because we're talking about aries.

E

On wall and septic and the ag and conservation zone in our discussions with the health department.

E

Two things would happen if you build it brand new, let's say with a brand new home and you're.

E

Building a detached um adu with that you can put it on one septic system. It would just be sized.

E

Appropriately for the number of bedrooms bathrooms and basically you would need roughly three acres.

E

To to meet all of those distance requirements from wall and septic um having the septic reserve.

E

um Or if you are building a addition, that is an adu that wouldn't tie into your main.

E

Septic, you would have to build a separate septic system, then to meet those requirements for the.

E

Detached um adu or you'd have to replace your entire septic system to accommodate.

E

Both so the health department, um you know they would be the ones to regulate those options for.

E

You um and then again, if the property sold, you know there was some concern about subdivision.

E

All the current regulations with attached would remain in place with detach again just changing.

E

Location, they have to be stuck together. You can have that separation, I'm including the inability.

E

To subdivide so that would be some of the restrictions that could be imposed if the guidance.

E

Is to continue to investigate and what would legislation look like coming out of this effort.

E

um And so again, that's what we're here for this evening or just even start the.

E

Discussion, if we don't come to consensus or we choose not to move forward, then that's.

E

What this group's recommendation is, but is it to keep the code as written and then our suggestion.

E

Would be to change the name from um uh a an 80, an accessory dwelling unit on a subdividable lot.

E

To basically a secondary dwelling unit, um the reason we have this- um and you can do this in.

E

The code, if you have a a a lot, that's eligible for subdivision again, I would ask jay to step.

E

In, if I'm not explaining this correctly, is that you don't have to subdivide or have a.

E

Site plan come in if you're going to do another home on a lot that has two development rights.

E

Does that make sense uh what what that is is if you have a a lot that is eligible to be subdivided.

L

Then you could build a second home on the property with no size limitations, but where.

L

You put, it would have to make it eligible so that when you subdivide the property, you would.

L

Have a legal lot surrounding it. So basically, like I say, if you have a single family home on.

L

Let's say: six acres uh and the lot's eligibly subdivided to create two three acre lots.

L

Then, yes, you could build a unlimited size, detached accessory dwelling unit on it.

L

But it would have to be placed so that you could create two lots.

L

Around it, if the property owner wants to sell the other property, the.

L

Like I say that you don't have to subdivide it at that time, you can just build the second dwelling.

L

Unit on your property, but you are eligible to have it subdivided so that in the future.

L

um If, for whatever reason, if you needed to sell it or you want to sell it, you can create a lot.

L

Around that house- and it would be a legal lot um when that for that house, so you'd be able to.

L

Make it a totally separate single-family dwelling unit um on that other law.

E

So that's what's allowed today, so it's really not so then our. What we're saying is: that's not really.

E

An accessory dwelling unit, that's just having two homes on a lot that can be subdivided off so.

E

If the um direction is to not move forward with having a true detached accessory dwelling.

E

Unit then, let's change the wording in our code and not call it that just call it or secondary.

E

Dwelling unit on the property- and we can work through that, if that's the decision, that's made.

E

um But again or create a true detached accessory dwelling unit, that's allowable on lots that are.

E

Not subdividable with certain restrictions and some of those restrictions we laid out.

E

Would be almost exactly what's the restrictions with the attached, um a square foot limitation.

E

And a distance from the primary residence that an owner must occupy one of the two.

E

Dwellings, whether it's the principal or the secondary um or the accessory dwelling um things.

E

Like that and that's giving your guidance, we can come back with a proposal for that.

E

um And then just you know, here's some possible restrictions.

E

um As I discussed the 800 foot size, three acre minimum lot requirement. um No more than 40 or 50.

E

Feet away from the principal dwelling, no more than two bedrooms um and then again continue that con.

E

Current regulation of one of the drawings must be occupied by a property owner.

E

um And then I thought these pictures here were pretty nice examples of accessory.

E

Dwellings, as you can see from the little circle, with the dashed line, this one is a garage in the.

E

Back of the house that's been converted. um This is almost like a tiny home off the shared driveway.

E

For a particular main unit, and then the one to the far right is more of a rural situation where.

E

They have a garage, that's been converted with an apartment on top as an accessory dwelling unit.

E

So that is all I have for the presentation, um I'm happy to answer any questions, but I'd like.

E

To hear your thoughts on the discussion on how you'd like us to move forward as a group.

A

So I guess uh I'll open it up and uh if we were in person, I would kind of like call on.

A

You so since we're here, do you have any questions you'd like to put forward? I get I hate saying I do.

K

um But but I don't really have an axe to ground. I just kind of want to know.

K

Get a better sense for what we think as a group and I and maybe group think a.

K

Good thing, maybe it's a bad thing, but for instance, um when we do something like this.

K

Do we also put a limit or or some sort of restriction on how many people can can.

K

And again I don't care, I just kind of want to know what we're thinking.

K

Do we put a limit on how many people can occupy a dwelling like this that are unrelated? I mean.

K

Do we care about something like that? We don't regulate that anyway, so even a single family.

E

You can have as many people you can cram into a single family home as you'd like. So we don't.

E

Regulate people I think for jay. That would be very hard too, to regulate family family unrelated. um If.

E

There's a zoning violation with regard to that I mean explain that a little more, I think the.

E

Size limitation would be, you know if you keep it 800 square feet, I mean what people can cram.

E

Into any space that they feel is comfortable for their living situation, but I would think.

E

The two bedrooms um and the 800 square foot would really limit. Having you know, 10 people in a house.

L

Yeah but let's say currently our regulations, we have none that regulate the number of people in.

L

The house we can't say like it has to be immediate family or anything of that nature. It could be.

L

10 different people living in the one house not related and we don't care hey.

L

We don't have anything on the books to say that that's a problem, but it's impossible to enforce.

L

There's no way I or my staff can determine how many people are living in a house at any one time.

L

So, like I say there is no limit on how many people.

L

And there are quite a few houses in the county that I know of that are small houses. You know.

L

Eleven hundred twelve hundred square feet they might have ten or twelve people living in them.

L

Right, jay and again I I you know, I I I'm not going to go back to the horror stories of.

K

The old fraternity house uh that we read in grove city, pennsylvania um but I'll just tell you that.

K

You know um it was an interesting situation because again the neighbors didn't buy into us.

K

As a return renting that house and having parties there, wednesday friday and saturday.

K

Night, even though grove city is a pretty mellow campus, um you can imagine the amount of traffic.

K

That was going in there out of there when we had 90 fraternity brothers- and I was just sitting here.

K

Wondering if I don't even know, if that's even a problem in like westminster or or further out.

K

Whether, where you know, you have college students, maybe renting and sharing homes,.

K

I don't know if it's a problem or not or something that we even need to be concerned about, um so that.

K

Was the first question I had and then well I've asked you to clarify pete. How is that an adu issue.

E

Right so I think that's more of a blanketed rental issue and that's one thing: you can't.

E

Do in carroll, county or one thing we don't do in carroll county, we don't.

E

Regulate rentals, um they don't have some jurisdictions. If you're I'm gonna write my.

E

Home, I need to file with my local jurisdiction to say I'm a rental. We don't do that here, so I guess.

E

Keeping it in terms of adus, I'm not sure we would have that issue with multiple people in an adu.

E

um That large of a scandal, maybe in the city of westminster, where they allow multi-family in a.

E

Single family home that might be a different situation, but that's out of our jurisdiction.

K

To speak, yeah you know and again linda. I I'm just asking questions again. I don't have a an.

K

Accident one way or the other and then the other. The other question I had was you know: is there not.

K

Is there not some sort of distance minimum distance away when we're talking about a detached.

K

Unit, wouldn't we want there to be a at least a minimum distance to where they're not.

K

They're not it's at least this far away to create that that sense of detachment.

K

And, and also again from a code standpoint from a fire safety standpoint that I think that that.

K

That space might be important to somebody uh having distance between the two dwelling units.

K

And then so, we are not proposing a minimum just because you can have attached now so you're.

E

Attached right um right so for the detach, what we would say, though, is a maximum distance, so that way.

E

And you would still be um required to follow all the setback requirements that would occur anyway.

E

With with a neighbor, um so you so you're not up against, we don't want you to be in the back corner.

E

Of a 10-acre farm or farmet, um you know we actually don't want you that far away. We want.

E

A reasonable distance, because that almost does become like a separate dwelling.

E

We want this to be definitely very accessory to the primary principle, so no more than is.

E

What we're suggesting? Because you can be attached! But we don't want you more than.

E

Split and then the last question I'll throw out is you know you know it would make sense to me that.

K

From the neighbors might might object to people parking grass and just all over the place, and so.

K

It would make some sense to me that the number of parking spaces to be a relationship between.

K

The size of the unit that's built and a number of bedrooms, or but again you know, jay you're,.

K

Saying we don't know how many people are there, we don't want to regulate that. I'm just thinking.

K

I'm just thinking you know visually. What did the county want to try to project um in in.

K

In a between the parking that is provided and the size of the building, those are the those.

K

And again, unless you think they're good we're talking three acre minimum.

E

And we're talking again conservation, so I don't think you'd have those residential conflicts.

E

um That you would have in a more dense situation, um so you have the space so in.

E

Our current code we're suggesting the same thing as in the current code: two parking spaces and.

E

It's a maximum of two bedrooms, so again, you're really limited and I think the conflicts that.

E

That we would be talking about with neighbors would look anything can happen anywhere. You.

E

Know people can make stuff up, people can feel put out for any reason. However, I think on three.

E

Acres in ag and conservation, those interactions are going to be minimized and just that you know.

L

For anybody's single family dwelling anywhere in the county, we require a minimum two parking spaces.

L

For that, so that's a standard for dwelling is two parking spaces.

L

So say now you have to provide more whether it's attached or detached the way it is.

A

So janice do you have any any questions or comments um yeah? Well, yes, I'm a little concerned.

I

With the maximum 800, I've seen a lot of families that want to come together and I'm talking about.

I

Basically they attached, but you know it may be a 4 000 square foot house with a 1200 basement.

I

And if it's out of ground, a lot of them will take and use that as their living space down there.

I

So when you say it can only be 800 square feet, then that makes it a little bit awkward for the.

I

Balance of that use for that basement, so it's um I would I like the one-third, without stipulating you.

I

Know a maximum of 800., so that's the current code correct. So it's whatever is the greater of the.

E

Two, a third of the space or 800 square feet: yeah, it's it's yes! So it's a maximum of 800 square feet!.

L

Or one-third of the livable area of the main dwelling that's important, also because.

L

When you're counting livable floor area you're, not counting things like garages,.

L

Bathrooms closets hallways walk-in, closets they're, not counted in that square footage.

L

It's the livable spaces, which is your bedrooms, your living room, your dining room, your kitchen.

L

A den or something along that line they're counting, but the small things like I say.

L

The hallways, the closets, the bathroom they're, not necessarily they're, not considered livable.

L

Floor area, so it's one third of that floor area, not necessarily the size of the house.

E

So jay, is it the greater of the two or is it 800 the cap? So it's like you say.

L

We say, let's say the maximum's 800 or up to one-third of the livable floor area.

L

Is you know you can go all the way up to that? If you have a 3, 000 square foot house.

L

You can go up to a thousand square feet um if you have a a larger house.

L

One third of that livable floor area. You can go up to now most attached units.

L

That we've seen generally around the 800 to 900 square feet because there's not a lot of.

L

um Three thousand four thousand square foot houses with livable floor space. You might have a four.

L

Thousand house square foot house with a three car garage, a large attic or you know, a loft area or.

L

You know unfinished basement. An unfinished basement is not livable floor area. If it's.

L

Finished yes, but if it's unfinished it's not counted, there's not a lot of houses that are over.

L

That three to four thousand square feet in that county there are some but, like you say, it's going.

L

To be one-third of their so then, let's so um just that is for currently in the code attached. So the.

E

Attach we already allow and then we can continue to keep that in there, but for the detached either.

E

You could keep with that or limit it to 800 square feet. Total one thing about the detach.

L

Right with detached, you know, the thing is.

L

In an accessory dwelling unit, it's it has to be, you know secondary to the main house.

L

um That's why you know lynn is recommending if we do a detached on a lot. That's not subdividable. We.

L

Have a limit on the square footage, so it doesn't become bigger than the main house.

L

And let's say another requirement is that the owner of the property has to live in one.

L

Of the two houses it doesn't matter which one, but they still have to live in one of the two.

L

So if you build a detached unit and then you sell your house and the next guy comes in and buys it.

L

And he wants to rent both the main house and the accessory dwelling unit out.

L

He can't do that he has to live in one of those two units, so you know that's a restriction that.

L

Even then is hard to enforce, but it it is enforceable.

I

um I would prefer to see it like a thousand square feet maximum, because I sold a lot of senior.

I

Housing projects- and I can tell you a thousand square feet- is even tight with two bedrooms.

I

A nice little living room and um kitchenette, so I I I'm.

I

200 square feet, because that makes it even tighter, I think, and, as I always say, to the developers when.

I

They're, looking at that and they're like throw this in there and I said yeah, they might be.

I

Older with a lot of the accessory dwelling units they're for but not dead, yet so they like theirs.

M

I mean you know you're, giving the image if you have a detached that you're giving people.

M

More plot right- and I don't really see the real purpose on changing what we already have. I don't.

M

I mean jay. Is there any particular reason in there that you see that we need to change what.

M

We already have, I think, um a while back. We had a case come before us that somebody wanted to build.

L

A convert, a detached garage into living area, for I think their grandparents and it was detached.

L

And their lot did not have subdividable rights and we turned down that building permit. I think.

L

That's kind of really one of the things that started the discussion within the county.

L

Like if, if it's small enough and it's truly accessory, and it.

L

It's not way out away from the main house.

L

That may be something to consider. uh One of the things I think I would like to consider is if.

L

I have a very expensive house with a detached accessory dwelling on it, even if it's small one.

L

Am I really going to be wanting to rent that out to a stranger, yes for my in-laws or my cousin or.

L

You know my son or something he had no problem. I wouldn't have any issue with that, but once.

L

You start running things out, you start getting into rental laws where you can't refuse people.

L

Based on anything almost so that's something you might want to take into consideration.

A

Matt, you have any other questions or comments.

M

No, I mean you know like you, can have a duplex or you can have what we have now.

M

um I I just think it gives it that that look, that, if we're already in ag zoning.

M

I think if you don't have the subdividable lot you should it should be unattached.

L

Well and um one thing I'd like to say about two family dwellings,.

L

If you have a two family dwelling, there is no size limit on a two, so they could both be.

L

4 000 square foot houses as long as they're attached.

L

You could argue right now in the ag zoning district, that if I do.

L

An attached dwelling unit it makes it a two-family dwelling unit. So therefore it shouldn't be a limit.

L

On the size of that attached second house, as long as it's attached, because we do allow two.

L

Family dwellings, so you can make that argument either way. But, like I say it's.

L

I think the intent is really to provide something.

L

That is usable for the family a lot of times. It's converting a garage second floor of a garage.

L

Into a detached unit, we've got quite a few of them throughout the county right now that aren't legal.

L

People have just gone ahead and done it. um So there's all kinds.

L

Of arguments either way, I mean that's, why we're coming to you all for guidance.

L

I don't see the issue with allowing attached units in the ag no problem, because you can have a two.

L

Family dwelling there and it can be, they can be any size. Then in the future like say, if you have.

L

A detached unit, somebody in the future, is going to come to the county and want to change the law.

L

And say: hey: I want to sell that unit. I'm sure you all know we always get requests for change of the.

L

Ordinance and that that's always a possibility that that would come up. Someone come in and say.

L

I want to split that little house off and create a lot and let's do a text amendment and do that.

L

That's a possibility too. In the future. I mean it's right now. You can't do it.

L

But I just think laws change, but wouldn't it have to me like if it's well in septic it.

I

Would have to make a requirement, they would have distances yeah one septic. Yes, it would have to me.

L

um But like I say, if whatever they propose in that text, change.

L

They may say something entirely different that you don't have certain setbacks or.

L

Like I say, it's really all you all need to have on what what you want to allow in the county and.

I

I'm sorry, if we're talking about it being in the agricultural.

I

District, it's always going to be well septic. I can't I don't envision water and sewer.

I

Being available in those areas, so well that's one thing we're talking right now, we're talking just.

L

About the ag and conservation zoning districts for this, uh I don't think we've talked about.

L

Allowing it in the residential districts really yet because currently in the residential districts,.

L

You can have an attached accessory dwelling on any lot in the re as long as you've got the room.

L

For it, you can do an attached accessory dwelling, but if you're in a sub-device.

L

Subdivision right now you can't subdivide your lot, so you can't do a detached.

L

Detached unit so in the residentials like I say it would be either an attached accessory dwelling or.

L

A lot that's big enough to have subdivision rights where you could put a second house.

E

Since we have finished the residential we're not going to go back and relitigate.

E

That with this movement, what we're really looking for is direction for.

E

Ag and conservation I mean the decision might be. You know what agriculture we feel because.

E

Typically, larger lots, blah blah blah. We could do a detached, maybe the conservation stays the.

E

Same maybe the conservation would only keep it attached. There could be various reasons.

E

For that, but really what we're looking for you all is that guidance of whether you feel.

E

It it's no difference whether it's attached or slightly offset as a detached.

A

So um let me just make sure I'm framing the issue right um before I get to you, michael and steven.

A

I think what you're looking for tonight, we don't do. We have to make a definitive decision.

A

That we're okay with detached going forward forever and ever or can we basically say we.

A

Would give direction um one choice for us tonight would be to give direction to you all to say.

A

Take us to the next step for detached we'd be interested in what this looks like.

A

What would be some restrictions that you think make sense and bring some more detail flush? It.

A

Out for us a little bit more in terms of what you think, this would look like, because I think.

A

That might help us understand what are the consequences of that of going down that path.

A

um And then we may, with that additional information that might help form our thinking.

A

A little bit to say, you know what we we like that, and here are some maybe consequences of that. We.

A

Haven't thought of that we like or we don't like um you know, I think that's where I think we are.

A

That you want that guidance from us that we can say: let's, let's take a let's go down that path, a.

A

Little ways fill in the picture for us somewhat, but then, if we don't like where that's going or.

A

It brings about unintended consequences that we just don't see right now, we'd be in a position to.

A

Say you know what I don't think we're going to want to go any further down the detached.

A

Accessory dwelling unit path, um we think at least the things that we don't care for linda, is that.

A

Is that a possibility? Can we do that tonight? Absolutely? That is exactly what we're asking for.

E

Is how how do you want to approach this, and, if, for your comfort level, if you'd like us to come back.

E

Say look at some of the parameters we've already outlined. What would that look like on a site plan.

E

We'd be happy to do that. We'd be happy to give you some examples. um What can you reasonably fit in.

E

800 square feet versus a thousand square feet. What would the bedroom sizes be? I think those.

E

Are things that we could investigate um and come back to you all with? So I guess the idea is just d.

E

Do you generally think it is a way to move forward or just should we stop the conversation, and I also.

E

Know we have some callers on the line. I know what or maybe tour specifically for this particular.

E

Topic, if you want to hear from them as well first, then we can come back uh well. Let me ask.

A

Matt, you had your hand up, did you want to offer something else and then yeah, I'm just saying that.

M

You know if we have rules for residential houses that are the same as what we have now for the eggs.

M

In it currently, I don't know why we want to make an exception in the ag zone, because it is the ag.

M

Zone most stuff, even a lot of them that are in ag preservation, still have subdividable lot rights.

M

And you can still build a tenant house on top of a correct j. I mean that's, that's a different subject.

L

Oh, yes, that that's definitely a different subject, um because the tenant house right now, um basically.

L

You can have two of them on a farm greater than 50 acres.

L

But their mobile homes they're not actual houses.

A

um Okay, thank you michael. What are your thoughts before we hear from.

A

From members of the public, if you care to share them, or if you'd like to.

J

Yeah, I I agree with you jeff and you know I think we should probably get some more clarification and.

J

Some examples uh to uh help fully understand what this is and where. My only uh question was where.

J

Where's, what's the genesis of this is this in and I'm I can't say, I'm the new guy anymore, because.

J

um Is this an annual uh zoning code review and you know something came yeah? We probably need to think.

J

About this, is there a trend that we're seeing in the county or the need to address this.

J

Have there been um projects done in the county that we found out about after the.

J

Fact that required some need to address this. I'm just trying to understand the foundation.

E

We are in our comprehensive rezoning process as part of plan implementation, so we have been.

E

We've undertaken a three-year effort to revise our zoning code. So that's why we're here- and this is.

E

The final two districts, the ag and conservation um and the reason this particular topic is yes. There.

E

Is a need? Yes, it's been brought up by the citizens, but also we bring to you what are trends and best.

E

Practices not only in carroll county but outside of carroll county accessory dwelling units are.

E

A very hot topic right now, nationwide um attached detached, doesn't matter.

E

All shapes and sizes because we are in a housing crisis in this country.

E

And so we need to look at creative ways, um and actually these aren't even this isn't.

E

Even unconventional or creative, I would say, adus have been around for forever. I mean we.

E

We we've had this, I mean, there's all you look at fonzie and happy days I mean he lived in an adu.

E

um So you know this has been around since the 50s, not a new concept, just what the proposal is is.

E

We have them attached now. Some people may not be able to have them attached to moving forward. I.

E

May not want to. Maybe they want that physical separation, too distinct, even though even the.

E

Attached to entrances to everything they may want that physical detachment, so they have that.

E

Little bit of extra privacy or additional space, what we're seeking is to say in our exam what what.

E

What is it to offset it? What is it to have a garage separate that may have an apartment.

E

That sort of thing just to give you that little something else or maybe the properties restricted.

E

Or where your exact pad site is for your home, you can't put an addition on. You want your mom to move.

E

In or you, but you don't have that space, but you know what off your driveway a little to the left.

E

You have room for 800 square feet and that's where it would be suited. So that's.

E

That's what we're asking that's what we're looking for! Okay, thank you and, by the way,.

A

The last time that we revisited the uh zoning text in a comprehensive way was what year linda.

E

Never when it was written, yeah 1960, something or something like that. Yeah.

E

We've done changes, we've added we've added zoning like zoning, wasn't a thing really until, like the.

E

70S then we started adding districts and enhancing it. But since we've had a code that covered soup to.

E

Nuts ag to industrial we've never done a revision before so we have to look at all of these things.

E

We would be remiss if we didn't so it's a big deal um very good and then um stephen not to put you on.

A

The spot, um but any questions or thoughts from this you certainly don't have to there's a lot.

A

To this I know it's your first meeting yeah. I I think I kind of agree with you and and everything.

F

Just you know a little bit more information and clarification, and then uh I think we'll be good.

A

Thank you. um You know, I I hear matt on these things. You know why change it? If it's not.

F

Broken, I know, that's not exactly what you're saying that, but I'm just oversimplifying, but.

A

The one thing I'd be interested in, I think as we go forward, so I guess the question is: do we.

A

Tonight is the commission saying we're not interested in detached forget it? Don't do anything.

A

Else um my my view, I think and then listening to some of the comments. Maybe I have agreement from.

A

Some of you is um the problem, I don't want to say no tonight, I think I'd be interested in hearing.

A

More information, um I was interested jay when you talked about a you know, a family that had to.

A

Detest garage, they didn't have sufficient room to meet current codes and you had to turn them down.

A

um That that bothers me a little bit because I'm a I'm a property rights advocate, and I think that.

A

You know to the extent we as the government can get out of people's way to let them use.

A

Their properties in way that meet their families needs and particularly multi-generational needs.

A

I'm a fan of that generally, but at the same time you know how far is too far like everything else.

A

We do on this commission we're balancing out lots of very valid uh interests, but I'd like.

D

To just a better sense of a better sense of this because you've given one example jay where.

A

The current code didn't allow a family to meet some needs that to me seemed pretty reasonable.

A

In either an ag or a conservation district, and maybe we can do better. And since we don't revisit.

A

This very often, I wouldn't mind taking a little deeper dive and getting some more information.

A

Before I would want to really support, saying no more discussion around detached um accessory.

A

Dwelling units, so I guess where I am I my view is- I think, I'd like to I'd like to go.

A

A little further down the path I'd like to hear more detail around what might be proposed for.

A

Detached accessory dwelling units and what sorts of needs needs they can allow.

A

Families to meet now that can't be met under current codes. There possibility for abuse.

A

If we do this and then the size you know like janice, was pointing out.

A

I think at the moment I'm I'm sort of hesitant to get rid of the 800 or one-third. Whichever is.

A

Greater because I can see that there may be knee again, family needs legitimate needs and we have.

A

Come up with what may be an arbitrary number of 800 square feet that somebody came up with at some.

A

Point in the past for reasons I don't understand at the moment, um I'd like to understand that and.

A

Maybe those numbers should change or there's more to it. So I guess where I am is. I would.

A

I would put forward the idea of saying: let's, let's authorize the county folks, to walk down this path.

A

A little further bring us more detail around some of those things, as well as anything else that.

A

Lets us see further down the path and lets us see what the consequences are, what opportunities.

A

It creates that don't currently exist and where it's subject to abuse and and then let us let us.

A

Talk that through a little bit more, that would be my my thinking.

A

But I'm one voice, I'm just one. um So why don't I run through pete? What do you think about that.

A

K

I I like I like what you're saying and again I don't really have.

K

I don't have a preconceived idea of where this should go. um I I would like to see.

K

People have flexibility at the same time, I don't want to turn it into the wild west either, because.

K

Again, I think, having some certainty and some limitations, just from uh you know, being able to.

K

Protect the neighbors rights too jeff. I want to be concerned about that because again I don't think.

K

Again unintended consequences right I mean we don't know what somebody's going to use that.

K

That um the house for and who's going to live there and that's not really something that jay and.

K

His team want to be charged with regulating either so I get it um at the same time like you're, saying.

K

Multi-Generational, so I'm waxing on, I agree with you. I agree with you. I think it's a good way to go.

K

And then generally, I would like to see. I would like to see this allowed um detached attached.

K

I'd like to know the tenant thing that matt brought up again, that's an interesting thing that.

K

Is not a part of this, but again if matt doesn't mention that I totally forget about it. So I'm.

K

Glad you guys are all here because again, there's there's more to it than just attached and detached.

A

Yeah and I think that'd be helpful to have as part of the conversation just because it.

A

Helps us to see a more complete picture of how people what options people have.

A

For the use of their property in these kinds of circumstances, I'm just one by my screen here but.

A

uh Janice, what do you? What do you think about? um I think it's a good idea and I have some floor.

I

Plans linda that um we've done for attached as well as some of the details, so you can see.

I

What a thousand actually gives you, um how that's it and that, I will say um agricultural.

I

As you well know is ranging from smaller lots to so, but I respect your thoughts on that.

A

Yeah absolutely matt: what do you think about this approach? Getting some more information.

A

And kind of noodling it through for another round. I don't think it hurts to look at it a little bit.

M

More um you know, like I said, I'm just concerned a little bit about basically you're giving.

M

More density to the ag lot, if you do the detach, because you know I know, there's a lot of lots of.

M

Already been developed, one that I think of in carroll county and several in frederick county.

M

Where someone goes out and builds a big shop and puts a home in the corner of it, which is.

M

Not really the intention of having a shop so but yeah more information be okay and I think for for.

M

Like peter that you know the whole tenant thing, you know, because I am definitely not a fan of.

M

Trailers, I wish we could change something with not having trailers. If a guy wants to build a house.

M

And it'd be limited to 12 or 1400 or 1500 square foot of the tented house would be a lot nicer.

A

And you know related to that out in missouri, where we have a cabin one of the things I hear.

A

About a lot are these shouses and their shop houses they're these these uh pole, buildings.

D

And just what you said: matt, in fact I know some folks, they're building a very nice house.

A

um And they're gonna live there while they build a house, um but I'd be curious about.

A

About that too, where does that fit in to this? Maybe it doesn't. Maybe we don't allow it, but.

A

Again, just something to think about, because on ag properties um I see it. I see these kinds.

A

Of things happening, there's a real trend for it in certain parts of the country.

A

Michael, what do you, what are your views on taking this approach? Getting some more information.

A

And then um being able to evaluate it after after we get that yep all in completely agree. Thank you.

A

I guess steven completely agree as well all right. Well then, I think um we have a.

A

Consensus here, linda and jay, um so are you all clear about how you can help us out taking it a.

A

Little taking us a little further down the road and the kinds of issues we'd be interested in.

A

Hearing about to better be informed right, no problems with that at all.

A

All right and linda you said we have some people on the line from the public that.

A

Would like to comment on these things. Yes, we have four members of the public on the line.

E

um If firm can bring up the timer and laura has their name she'll call the names of each.

E

Speaker wishing to give comment this evening, okay, very good- and I, as I've said before, when we're in.

A

Person I'm going to hold you to the three minutes, just because it's in fairness to everybody um so.

A

um You've got the full three minutes, but um at three minutes in one second, um I'm gonna ask you.

A

To be done in the world that I live in, that's that's the way we live and it seems pretty fair.

B

The first person that signed up, we have a barry goffner. He signed up to speak about.

B

Solar panels on farm locations, I'm not sure if he steals wants to use his time tonight. Barry.

B

Okay, snowberry, the second person we had sign up is caroline lowe. I believe she's on the line.

C

I I am, and I really I really want to say that I appreciate the proposal that you're making for.

C

The test trial for this project to see what the consequences will be because I don't think I'm not.

C

Aware, if that was made for the solar um for the solar, for the ordinance to allow solar on ag land.

C

And I just want to say that that I am that I want to express my opposition of the change.

C

Of agricultural zoning that now allows the by-right industrial use of agricultural land.

C

And I want to propose that carroll county land that zoned agriculture will be used for biological.

C

Farming for the purpose of cows, having calves, seeds producing crops and and that industrial.

C

Solar be placed on brownfields landfills, big box stores and rooftops. um I'm really shocked.

C

That, as a conservative county that um that we've now adopted what feels to me like a very liberal.

C

uh A solar policy, and I'm not even sure if this isn't the most liberal solar policy in our state.

C

And- and I I want to check into that a little further as a fourth generation farmer, I'm appalled.

C

That our farming county will be losing our biological ag land five to twenty acres at a time.

C

As solar is not farming and let's call it what it is, it's industrial I received multiple letters.

C

Weekly now from solar investors wanting our farm, because the word is out the carroll county.

C

Commissioners of stein- and it's now been made very easy and and um and it's been so easy.

C

That why wouldn't every out-of-state, solar investor not beat our doors down uh from what I'm.

C

Reading the green energy is not guaranteed to even stay in maryland, let alone carroll county and our.

C

Beautiful county will be destroyed for the sole benefit of the out-of-state solar investor, who.

C

Doesn't give one rip about us and once our acreage is gone, then it's too late to realize the damage.

C

uh Industrial solar farms should be a zoning case by case review, with neighborhood input.

C

As it affects everybody that surrounds it, industrial solar farms drastically change.

C

The landscape of the area and that's all I have to say thank you carolyn. Thank you very much.

B

The next person signed up to speak is joy, daughtry.

B

Is joy daughtry on the line.

B

Okay and then the fourth person was suzanne swisher.

N

Good evening I have been following uh this issue intently for the past uh year and a half.

N

And I'd like to refer you to bcake 6313 of may 2021, where a lot of information was presented.

N

And a strong case was made to request a detached adu which would meet the same size. Restrictions as.

N

An attached adu at about 1200 square foot on a lot just under 5 acres and with full neighbor support.

N

Thank you to the commission for your willingness to do better. I would nominate our situation as a.

N

Prototype regarding the current lack of size limitations for detached adus, I would suggest.

N

That 800 square feet max may be too restrictive and ada non-compliant for two bedrooms and someone.

N

Who may be in a power wheelchair there may need to be a variance considered on a case-by-case basis,.

N

I agree with ms eisenberg when she says that detached dwelling units are consistent with the.

N

Goal in the county plan of providing a diversity of housing options for residents the county.

N

Commissioners have consistently stated that they always have the safety, security, well-being and.

N

Quality of life for our carroll county community, first and foremost as the highest priority.

N

The concerns about accessory dwelling units being rented out to someone unrelated to.

N

The family in the main house can be addressed by codes prohibiting that.

N

And having owners file an annual statement with the zoning administrator.

N

Verifying that the conditions that were granted for use of the detached adu remain.

N

The same the conditions allowing the detached adu do not convey to a subsequent purchaser.

N

And limited to immediate family, only sharing the same driveway access as primary dwelling and.

N

Aesthetically aligned with the architecture of the primary dwelling or any other imposed conditions.

N

According to the minutes that I reviewed mr bale had given an example of a bza that was.

N

Recently rejected because the applicants did not have the needed subdivision rights.

N

He stated, or at least the minute stated, that the adu would have been two-thirds the size of the.

N

Original house, I hope he was not referring to our case number 6313, because we were requesting a size.

N

One-Third the square footage of the primary house, commissioner weaver, and I support and.

N

Thank you suggest that the same regulations and requirements be made for detached and attached.

N

I would recommend that more research be done to show the impact.

N

Of this in other regions of the country, such as the analysis that was extensively performed by the.

N

Aarp and the american planning association, showing the impact on the infrastructure of the community.

N

Your recommendation, according to the last meeting minutes that I read.

N

Stated that you felt abuse were best suited in designated growth areas where.

N

Public services and infrastructure are readily available and I don't know what the rationale.

N

That would be when the benefits of a multi-generational household prevail.

A

Suzanne you're out of time, are you able to sort of wrap it up.

N

uh Yes, I was, um I have another comment um when the commissioners have always stated that the.

N

Safety, security, well-being and quality of life for our community is first and foremost, and the.

N

Highest priority, I do agree that unrestricted detached adus would have a negative impact on.

N

The environment and public facilities, however detached adus should be restricted, and I would.

N

Ask that you would consider applying the same guidelines for an attached, adu and given special.

N

Exceptions most especially for disabled elderly family members with wheelchair needs. Thank you.

A

Thank you suzanne. Do we have any other callers or is that it laura? No one else signed up. I'm.

B

Not sure if there's anybody else on the line that wishes to speak, that didn't sign up previously.

A

A

All right any other comments from the commission members.

A

Hearing none all right linda, thank you for uh the presentation and then I think I think.

A

You have a good sense of uh where we like to have this go for discussion purposes next time.

E

Yep, we'll do our research and come back to you um with a proposal and some additional information.

D

If I could, this is chris hyde, I'm sorry if I could jump in just for one second, um if the.

D

Next meeting, um where we discussed this could be an in-person meeting and perhaps we could have.

D

Some of the folks from the work group attend as well, um because I think there was a pretty strong.

D

Consensus from the work group that we thought the coach remain as is um but we'd love, we'd, love.

D

To have the discussion, and I think in person would be much better to have that discussion.

E

Yeah may 17th, which is our typical business meeting.

E

So that will be the next time that we discuss this, so that will address the in-person issue. That chris was just mentioning so yeah that.

D

I think it helps us too. I mean it's one thing to talk to each other in.

A

These little square boxes, but I think it's much more helpful to.

A

Have a dialogue in person where we can see each other and talk about it more so that'll be great.

A

If there's no other business, then um I'd be happy to entertain a motion that we adjourn.

A

Who will you adjourn.

A

A

Anyone opposed very good. We will stand adjourned. Thank you. All very much have a nice evening.

A