Carroll County, MD Carroll County Planning and Zoning Commission, 19 Apr 2022

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From YouTube: Planning & Zoning Commission of Carroll County, MD April 19, 2022

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https://www.carrollcountymd.gov/government/boards-commissions/planning-zoning-commission/

A

B

We will call the april 19 2022 planning and zoning commission meeting to order.

B

uh What if we could start with establishment of a quorum? Mr wilders, I am here miss kirkman.

C

Mr lester, here mr hall, here, mr king here, commissioner williams, here secretary eisenberg.

C

Here, mr chair, please let the records reflect that six members are present and we do have a report.

C

Thank you. Let's stand for the pledge of allegiance. Please.

B

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic.

B

For which it stands, one nation, under god, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

B

Right next time on, our agenda is.

B

Review and approval of the agenda itself are there any other changes.

B

um To the one, that's been stopped, yes, so we have our revised agenda. As you see, we added item 14.

D

Town annexation school, as well as if we could add to the review and approval of the minutes.

D

um In addition to march 3rd, we have march 15th and april 6th for you all to review today, all right.

B

So with those uh changes you have to entertain a motion for approval of the agenda.

E

And if we approve the agenda, a second all right, all in favor all right all right, it's unanimous.

B

It is approved, doesn't matter um next, we'll move to review and approval of the minutes.

B

And, as uh madam secretary just pointed out, it's actually three sets of minutes. It's march 15th.

B

March, 30th and april 6th we've been busy. So yes- and you should have all of those before you yeah.

B

Yeah uh anybody have any changes to any of the minutes. All right. We have to entertain a motion.

B

For approval of those sets, can we do that as a group, I think so? Okay, I would move that. We approve.

F

The minutes from march 15th march, 30th and april 6th this submitted a second all right, any further.

B

Discussion all in favor aye, that seems to be unanimous. They will stand approved, we'll move on.

B

To commission member reports, I have one thing to report mr b craft brought to me on april 11th.

B

The 711, which is located at 32 in macbeth, which we recently approved and the engineer, had come.

B

Forward and the facade materials that were part of the plan that we had seen those materials.

B

Are surprise, surprise, no longer available, and so they had brought forward some drawings with.

B

Materials that are available that, in my view, were not substantially different and uh so.

B

I indicated that I didn't see that as a significant, significant change.

B

um And that that was acceptable to me to let the process move forward.

B

So just wanted to, let you all know about that, um and I don't have anything else to report.

B

Commissioner, good morning, just a couple things for me: trust everyone survived the snowstorm yesterday.

G

uh Three three inches or four inches of snow in thurmont. Just it reminds you to just pay.

G

Attention in maryland and april because you just never know, what's going to happen right, mr huff.

A

Hasn't you being the farmer that you are you just never know, what's going to happen,.

G

For those that are paying attention to the commissioners we just finished or rolled.

G

Out our proposed budget- and that goes now with the the next step- is the ted zaleski road show.

G

uh He'll be at the five library main library, branches.

G

uh For those citizens that are interested uh the the theme uh that I tried to work on this year.

G

Myself and a couple of my colleagues were along there with me, was making sure that people were.

G

Taken care of so we paid a lot of attention to people, salaries, etc, and I think it's a good budget.

G

And we'll see where we go now, there's a public hearing in may as a result of what uh we hear.

G

When ted takes it on the road or anyone that wants to make the comment uh but um again we're we have.

G

To have that adopted by the end of may so we're um we're. Most of us are excited about that, and.

G

I think like like, like a lot of the other jurisdictions, uh we're excited about the.

G

Fact that we got some one-time monies this year, we were able to do some things that we weren't.

G

Planning on doing so I'll remind folks uh just like this process here that our budget, unlike any.

G

Other jurisdiction in the state was done in front of cameras, so you actually saw us sitting there.

G

Making incredibly challenging decisions that doesn't happen anywhere in the state of maryland.

G

So kudos to those that make that work- and I don't think it's it's- I don't know that.

G

Budget directors go out and do the road show like our budget director does as well. So we do.

G

Things a lot differently here in carroll. We are incredibly transparent and I'm very proud of that.

G

Two new folks will be coming to this group. uh Commissioner weaver, and I had a couple good.

G

Interviews, you'll be hearing more about that later on, uh but we've got what we feel uh will be a a a.

G

Great uh fit for one of the regular seats here, and we also believe we found a really good alternate.

G

uh That is excited about being on here, so you'll be seeing a couple new faces uh shortly. Thank you.

G

uh So we're working on that uh and just a couple of reminders of what's coming up in carroll on.

G

May 15th we have our veterans celebration at the farm museum. uh That's all over the website.

G

For those veterans, it's going to be quite the celebration april. 27Th we celebrate 50 years.

G

Of our aging and disabilities department, which, for those again that follow us, they've done incredible.

G

Work over the last 50 years, we've got one of the best bureau of aging and disabilities department.

G

Anywhere and uh they'll be celebrating that at 10 a.m, on the 27th and that's also the day for.

G

The special olympics at westminster, high school at 10 30, which a lot of us support so several of us.

G

Haven't figured out yet how to be at two places at one time, but we're working on it.

G

So uh again, I I always do this. I thank all of you for serving. uh This is one of the most.

G

Important boards that we have, and I appreciate your involvement and appreciate your expertise.

G

As we move through some some challenging decisions, so thank you all very much.

G

Thank you, okay. Thank you. Any other members have any comments. Let me cheer you.

B

Very good, then we will move on to the administrative report. Madam secretary.

D

On our facebook page, so I think our agent and disabilities peep show.

D

uh Entry came in like in the top ten: did it really yeah yeah? So I was trying to get the exact.

D

I couldn't pull it up. Quick enough, apparently the peep show has been drawing huge crowds. They moved.

G

It from the art center to the mall. Yes, that's what it said: yeah and it's like lines of people.

G

Going through the peep show so well anyway, carol represented county government, so very good. Yep.

D

So good morning I have no um updates other than if there's any extensions from laura matthias.

H

Good morning, good morning, all right- I do have three extensions this month.

H

They are all subdivisions. The first one is walkerwood estates, 2.

H

It's a minor m 09025, so the 09 is the year that it started with us. This is the.

H

11Th extension on the project- and it is in commissioner district 1 and it's one lot.

H

The second one is hummingbird hill p, 12 0. This is the fifth extension also in commissioner.

H

District one- and this is from fox, um so at the same time I think it's noteworthy that.

H

This property is also pursuing to go into our egg prez program, so they they did. The extension.

H

Just to keep their plan active, but they are working towards them close to going into ag press.

H

So then, that you won't see that again, if that happens, right and the third is fern hill.

H

This is p o two o five, three, it's the 11th extension. It's in commissioner.

H

District five- and this is 17- lots. Okay, that's it! Thank you! Hey could.

G

Could I ask that first one that you? Yes, it's only one lot, it's 11th extension.

H

Yes and they they do, I don't have their letter of request with me. They do submit a letter of.

H

A letter of request, which then explains why, okay they are looking to pursue, it seems like it seems.

G

A little interesting to me that one lot has that many extensions, but okay, all right might be a.

B

Story there. Well, that's. I was trying to pull the story from her and she didn't do it. So, whatever.

G

A lot of these you know one lots are just a homeowner looking.

H

To take one lot, and they may not be quite ready to take that final step. Thank you.

D

And we have no bga cases to report on for this month, so that is all I have for my administrative.

B

Report all right. Thank you very much. We'll move on to item eight, which is a final site plan.

B

Its case s is in sam two: zero that zero zero zero seven carroll station three.

B

H

Thank you. Whoever queued this up.

H

H

All right so again, mattias with the bureau of development review. uh We do have two projects.

H

On the agenda for you today, the first one is carroll station three, which is.

H

S two: zero, zero, zero, zero seven- and this is a final review today. So we are here. I am here.

H

Asking for consideration and approval of this project- and most of you will recall this- we did.

H

See it as a concept plan in july of 2021, so it should be relatively fresh in your memories, so.

H

We do have here today, some represent I'll. Let each of you introduce yourself if you would.

I

I'm pete podolak registration number one, nine five, six one representing.

I

uh Emin or I'm sorry, 1702 liberty, road llc, I'm joined this morning by one of the principals.

I

Of the llc scott miller and attorney david bauer sox good morning good morning good morning,.

H

Okay, so location, wise, you'll, see we're in the lower right hand corner here.

H

The site is highlighted, um it's.

H

Just my mouse working there, it is there's my mouse okay, so right here and this road here.

H

Is dickinson road and we have west hemlock and we have 26.. So it's a uniquely cited property in.

H

That it has three red frontages there. It's a true corner corner lot: it's in the c2 commercial, medium.

H

Intensity, zoning district and it's 0.5 acres, which is comprised of two parcels right now, which they.

H

Are consolidating and doing a lot line adjustment as well the property immediately to the east.

H

Is also under the same ownership, which is they're working together to make this all happen.

H

So some photographs of the site existing structure on the site, you're, looking to raise everything.

H

And do a retail building on site, here's some.

H

At dickinson road you'll see the existing sidewalk along dickinson.

H

And the plant again you'll probably recall this, as we did see it fairly recently, so.

H

So single story, retail building of 5500 square feet, is proposed on the site. They are doing that.

H

Line adjustment and have processed an amended flat through the county. That's at the eastern side.

H

With that adjoining property- and that was done- it's a slight adjustment, but it does gain them.

H

The setbacks required to this building and there are some adjustments to the site plan.

H

Which was approved for the adjoining property as you'll recall, so we have existing access.

H

To the joiner is carroll station plan business center, it was approved by the commission back.

H

In 06 and then an amendment in 13., so we have existing access from dickinson.

H

To that plan business center and from 26 as well here and so then the.

H

New development will adjoin via the parking lot at the front of the building and an access road.

H

Between these two buildings, okay, so they are doing a relocation of the dumpster for this property and.

H

Some landscaping will be replanted in conjunction with that, in terms of the development of the site.

H

The existing sidewalk along dickinson- you did see that in the photographs they are connecting coming.

H

Down hemlock, as well as along 26., there will be sidewalk that connects um landscaping. You'll.

H

See is pretty heavily proposed along west hemlock and at the dumpster and parking lot areas as well.

H

We have the sign details on this page uh you'll see it's a 25 foot, height and 10 foot width.

H

We did discuss that a little bit at the previous planning commission. You'll, probably remember.

H

The question was, you know, is the 25 foot in context on route 26? The proposal came back exactly.

H

The same, I don't know if the question was explored and answered, but the final you'll see that that.

H

Sign is the same. There's also some discussion about what could be uh posted on the sign.

H

Et cetera, so that that was the greatest discussion that occurred, this is the same sign that you did.

H

See a concept: okay and then, if we move on to the elevations again the same building elevations.

H

That you saw at concept review the east and the dickinson. Road facades are windowless facades and.

H

Then you have your store. Fronts facing liberty, and hemlock is how the building is oriented.

H

It's a flat roof. It measures, 24 feet, 6, inches.

H

At the height we have brick corrugated metal panels, efus metal and vinyl shown as materials.

H

A traffic impact study was not required per the the trips generated for the project parking. They.

H

Are showing 30 spaces they're required to have 28, so they meet their parking requirements.

H

This is in the public water sewer service area.

H

Oh sorry gone too far, I'm getting ahead of myself um lighting. They do have five.

H

Pole mounted parking lot lights, they are 15 feet above grade and wall mounted lights as well, and.

H

Storm water is being met. I'm going back to the plan for a second storm.

H

Water is addressed with bioretention facilities and an infiltration trench.

H

As well as carrying storm water to an existing pipe under hem dickinson excuse me.

H

The other the uh interesting thing about this project. They have proposed a stormwater facility.

H

That is within the dickinson road right of way. This has been approved by stormwater management.

H

Bureau of resource management as well as, of course, the department of public works, so they have been.

H

Working with them to make sure that this is acceptable, so what will be required is that.

H

An easement will be established and recorded and associated with the amended flat that we spoke of.

H

And that will happen prior to or simon simultaneously with the public works.

H

Agreement for this project, so that's in place so department of public works, is reviewing that.

H

Along with the county attorney's office to make sure that it meets everybody's needs.

H

Okay, so all agencies have approved this plan and pursuant to chapter 155 staff.

H

Is recommending approval of the site development plan subject to the following conditions, so there.

H

Are six in your report? I did add one which is mentioned in the report, but not in the.

H

Recommendation and I'll read that to you so we'll start with number one: the developer enter into a.

H

Public works agreement with carroll county number; two, the easement agreement with the department of.

H

Public works for storm water management features within the county, right-of-way for dickinson road.

H

Be recorded with the amended plot prior to or simultaneously with the public works agreement.

H

Number three that the amended flat be recorded prior to or simultaneously with the public works.

H

Agreement: four, a stormwater management, easement and maintenance agreement be granted to the county.

H

Number: five: a landscape maintenance agreement be reported simultaneously.

H

With the public works agreement number six, of course, any changes to the plan require.

H

That an amended site development plan be approved by the carroll county planning.

H

And zoning commission and number six they will be establishing cross easements for that access over.

H

The adjoining property, the last one's, actually seven right I'd, say six. Seven, two sixes six days.

B

Gentlemen, would you care to add any additional comments for us I would like to, if I may, I'm scott.

J

Miller my partner and I are the developers uh it occurred to me when the rendering of the building.

J

Was put up that one there you go, it says as you upper right as viewed from 1708 liberty, road.

J

What I'm getting at here is the one below, as viewed from west hemlock.

J

Is it possible if our architect suggests to us that we do a mirror image of that on the other.

J

Side, do we need to come back here to this panel to get that approval? What I'm looking at is.

J

You know putting glass on the other side so that that end cap has glass on the front glass. On the.

J

Side both end caps so somewhat symmetrical, and it just occurred to me looking at the rendering there.

K

But not changing the dimensions, no, no, no building stays the same.

J

And that's how we've done each one of the buildings that we have here thus far. We have.

J

Two buildings up on carroll station, so I'm just looking for the symmetry of of possibly being able.

J

To do that, if need be, and it wouldn't change the footprint which is not at all size. No, sir,.

J

It was just instead of the brick veneer that you see there there'd be glass identical to what you.

J

See where it says, as viewed from west hemlock drive, I'm not saying that that is is a certainty.

J

But we may have a user that says: hey. Could we have lighting? You know, windows on the side.

J

You've got us bricked in. We don't want to be in a tune, some natural light, yes, natural light exactly.

B

Yeah so yeah we'll have to we'll try to remember to add that I think, as we approve it to if we're.

B

All in agreement that we make clear in the record that that option is available to you. Thank you. I.

B

Think it's what you're asking you're not saying definitively, you want to do it, but you might.

J

Want to you may want to, and it really depends upon the end user, but I would appreciate your.

J

Consideration on that sure, thank you any other comments or anything. You feel that would help us.

A

Is that something that we should just wanted to point out.

I

With respect to the amendment, we are doing a lot line adjustment and that um adjoining our property.

I

Is a planned commercial center that was approved at plan business center when it was approved.

I

I guess that was approved what back in 2006 80, um so we're following the setbacks for.

I

The plan commercial center 25 foot and that um there is a little bit of a land swap and.

I

That the piece we're getting from the adjoining property would be consolidated into this parcel.

I

And as laura mentioned, one of the conditions is that we do a cross easement agreement for.

I

Ingress egress regress. We are utilizing the plan business center for access.

I

We're kind of marrying it up to the plant business center. However, we are.

I

Developing the property based on the commercial c2 district requirements.

I

We would have liked to have consolidated the whole thing into the planned business center, but.

I

There's different ownerships, there were some some legal issues and actually plan.

I

Commercial centers have a little bit more. You know higher parking regulations and requirements.

I

So, um just for the record we're developing this as a separate parcel. Yet we have the ability.

I

To to do the cross, easement agreements and tie in to the planned business center so.

I

So if I understand correctly the plan business center when you're standing at liberty road, I have.

B

Google earth up here on my computer- um that's the one to the right! If you liberty goes to your back.

B

The plan business centers to your right, developing the property to the left that has a building on.

B

It that's going to be raised and you're talking about the cross. Easement um agreement is between.

B

The probably to the right and the one you're building to the left so that customers can move.

B

Back and forth correct, seamlessly, really yeah, yes and, and you know we will allow reciprocal.

I

Parking easements, pedestrian access so and and we're proposing basically to kind of connect. The.

I

Sidewalks and make some ada compliant ramps so that you can move from one center to the other.

I

um Easily and safely sure is there elevation changes there. I don't remember there. Is uh you.

I

Know we're trying to keep the elevation uh for the most part, the same first floor elevation.

I

Of the building, and as a result of that, you know, we kind of end up with a hill on um west hemlock.

I

um But you know there, for the most part is going to be somewhat flat, but because of the.

I

Hill and swallowing you know we're going to have some changes in grades in the parking.

I

Lot but hopefully nothing too severe sure, and I guess mr bower stocks is not my area is yours.

B

The easements then run with the land right I mean change. Ownerships, we're not going to have.

B

Being segmented back out again it should these easements continue to go forward.

K

That's true: they run with the land they're, not personal licenses,.

B

Very good any other comments.

K

The only thing I'd mention is: we've had discussions uh myself and mr roman.

K

Most recently about the easement agreement, that's been referred to.

K

For the storm water management parcel location in the dickenson road right of way,.

K

It's my understanding that I think we basically arrived language, which is reflected in march, 8th.

K

Submission that's been made to the county attorney's office, so.

K

I believe that's in place for when the rest of the show hits the road so to speak, and I.

B

Guess laura that would be encompassed within the conditions that were as we're approving.

B

This I think that that is listed as the conditions. Let's swallow that up taken into account excellent.

E

um I just regarding the 25 foot sign. I know we had talked about the height before.

E

Did you all figure what the others were? What is mcdonald's, but did we.

E

Limit them to a hype restriction for the zoning district.

I

uh The maximum building height is that the building that sign- oh, the signage,.

I

I don't know if they have a. Maybe it is 25 foot. I I don't have the code with me: uh signage height. I.

I

Don't know if there is a restriction and there must be, I don't think, I'm sure there is, but.

L

I I don't uh yeah, I I'm don't forget what that is.

B

I missed that so the sign the sign that you're calling for is 25 feet high.

I

I'm sorry, is there a sign on the property that, yes, there is a freestanding proposed, pylon sign.

I

And how is it total elevation shown looks like 25 feet: yeah we're showing 25 feet.

I

Which? In the building's 24 feet.

I

E

So what is the sign in the other the adjoining center, what the height there? Well my recollection.

J

Is that that is about uh 18 feet high, however, that was put up when the first building went up.

J

If you will carroll station one where t-mobile matches warehouse and sir williams.

J

We opted not to to the chagrin of the folks in building two put a sign there, even though we.

J

Had permission you know for that building we just thought it would crap up the.

J

The street scheme- you know having two signs right next to we have stayed with that. One sign there.

J

And would want to anchor this site with another sign further apart uh easily.

J

Easily 200 feet, apart from where that not quite that much certainly 150 170 feet from where the.

J

Existing pylon is to where the proposed pylon would be so that there would be signage for.

J

The new building that uh we'd be putting up and the other one would remain uh intact. So.

J

As I said, we did, we didn't want to put another sign out front.

J

In the front of the car station too, just too close too many signs. We don't need it.

J

And besides that, building is close enough to the road that people can see it.

B

So I have a question um so the sign I apologize again. I've got my sure, google.

B

Earth up and I'm looking at street view, um so the sign that's out in front of.

B

The buildings now is not very tall, it's a small. No, it's just small. It's not a big sign at all.

B

um And then we've got mcdonald's down a little further, which is taller um and then so. I'm sorry.

B

To ask you to repeat yourself, so what were you saying about you want to? You want to leave the.

B

Smaller yeah, we would leave that there I mean if, if you're, looking directly at our building.

J

To our east as oklahoma center, they have this voluminous huge tall sign there. We're not.

J

Looking for anything like that, um leave the existing sign where it is, we don't have any.

J

Intentions of removing that and I'm guesstimating from that spot to where the sign would be at 1702.

J

Would be uh the the building itself cal station? Two is 80 feet wide. So if you take the setbacks,.

J

For 100 feet wide there and then you go over. I don't know another 25 feet, that's 125 and then I.

J

What is the width of 1702? Do you know pete, I don't know the width of the property yeah.

I

115 feet: okay, so we're 200, and when you look at it like that, we're from where the existing pylon.

J

Sign is we're at least 200 feet away from that sign to where the proposed sign for 1702 would be.

J

And I think that for iscape, if you will um that that would be appropriate rather than.

J

Having three signs you know in front of three buildings and there's no intention.

J

Of ever putting a sign in front of 1708, which is carl station two, where the liquor store is.

B

And do you know how it relates to the eldersburg common sign, which is basically going to be across.

B

The street yeah they well they've got several sides. um They have a real big one. There then.

J

They have a smaller electronic billboard, I guess 25 feet and I'm just kind of looking.

J

In here, this ceiling is there's floor to ceiling here, you're, probably about 12 feet. So you know.

J

25 feet: that's another 13 feet, visualize that.

J

And that sign would announce carroll's station altogether. And I don't want to mistake or.

J

Misrepresent that that time would be there to take the place of the smaller sign, because the folks.

J

In the the first building, we have provisions in their lease uh that they get on the pylon sign. So.

J

We couldn't just arbitrarily say well we're going to put up this sign here. No, we want to announce.

J

Carroll station sure, okay, but we can't take that sign down because we'd be violating t-mobile.

J

And matches warehouse says they have provisions in their lease that they're on that side. So I.

B

Know it seems like we're spending a lot of time on signs, but we typically do.

M

And partly because we don't want it to look like the vegas strip.

B

Into eldersburg- and I agree with that- um and we also want there to be some symmetry.

B

So if you know, we've got mcdonald's and we've got eldersburg commons.

B

And then, if I'm exaggerating to make a point. But if your sign is twice as tall as everybody else's.

B

May be good for business, but you know but ugly, um just in terms of not being symmetrical and that.

B

Sort of thing so we're just sensitive to that sort of thing. um I don't know I'm dominating.

B

The conversation where exactly is the sign location on this uh on this map, or this diagram.

H

I don't know yeah right in the middle of the problem.

J

At the practically at the corner in the corner, apex.

A

Well, we'll say it's good, it's good to have that. I'm sorry, it's good to have that much clearance.

A

Underneath of for lineups yeah traffic for trucks, also, I'd like to make a point.

J

That, where that sign, is the the ground grades down, so it's not like it's sitting up high.

J

And then 25 feet from there, because the grade of the dirt is such.

J

Where it comes into west hemlock and liberty, road, that is a I don't know how far down that is.

I

Actually we are, we are going to be up on top of the hill. Oh, you will. Okay.

I

But, but what scott's saying also that you have to realize is that we have utility poles.

I

And that you, the utility poles, will continue along the front of the property.

I

And the utility poles, you can see, there's verizon lines that are low. Those big dark black lines.

I

um And so basically we're kind of trying to to get above the lines so that we can have some type.

I

Of sight, otherwise we would have obstructions with the utility bowls and the lines the overhead wires.

F

I'll say that in the ownership is distinct, but yet incestuous.

F

In some to some degree, I wish there was a way to consolidate the signage for all three.

F

That may be too much to ask um you know, maybe even we could give concede some size to have.

F

One sign for all three buildings so that the cork sherwin williams, you know no one's.

F

No one's rights are violated, but yet we've got one consolidated, consolidated design rather than.

F

Two, you know you have the right to do. The third, which you are saying you you don't intend to do.

F

But it sounds like you may have a right to do it and we could end up with three signs.

F

Over the span of you know what 400 feet or so, and so just from like, like we're saying from a vision.

F

F

Aesthetic standpoint, I would prefer to see one consolidated sign in that you know again the.

M

Ownership here is, um is distinct but yet um compatible. I don't know how else to say it. I.

F

Mean mr bower sucks, you probably have a better way to say it. You know it sounds like y'all.

F

There's a reason they're distinct, but yet at the same time the ownership is pretty much the same. So.

F

I I wish there was a way to do that. I don't know if there is um and again I don't know.

F

If we would be willing to give, you know we're going to build, put up a new sign.

F

Let's put up a bigger sign for all three, but we've only got one. I don't know if y'all have that sort.

F

Of um if you're all amenable to something like that or if you would be willing to do that, but.

F

um That would be something that I would be in favor of, because it's one sign rather than two.

E

I um I always look at property rights, and but I think I heard you say that there is some separate.

E

Ownership there's correct different partners, right of which my partner and I are partners in that.

J

The other partners are not partners in this particular group. So it's just a lot to ask yeah.

E

So I I take a philadelphia lawyer to figure this one out yeah and if should you decide to sell in.

E

The future you know they would be that's a mess, so that's a mess. um Looking at google map again.

E

I, the one that's in front of your existing center, looks to be. You said it was 18 high if it's that.

J

High, it's not it's, not a big sign, it looks smaller yeah, it's in fact. We got a lot of pushback from.

J

The existing tenants, because they that was the first building and b that was our first venture.

J

Doing it and see they said you know it's a pretty puny sign and they were encouraging us to raise.

J

That sign put a bigger sign with an electronic panel. You know poor portal, there 70 80 000 later.

J

Is what it would take to do it because I didn't realize this? Was wind uh restrictions sign company.

J

Came out since it's got to be able to withstand winds of 80 miles an hour, I'm thinking good god.

J

When's, the last time we had that in the carroll county reminded me of the hurricane or tornado.

J

That came through westminster, oh yeah. I remember that so we tabled that real, quick, because you.

J

Know 78 thousand dollars tear down. It was quite expensive, yeah all right. Well any other questions.

B

So looking across the street at the walmart sign, it sounds.

B

Like the sign you're talking about is similar in size to that it'd be.

J

And candidly, I would not be in favor as the uh partner in this of putting a sign on that corner.

J

That looks anything as large. As that I mean you know, that's a massive 55, 000 square foot.

J

Building this is 5 500 or you know 55 000 square feet. I don't know what it is. It's huge.

J

That'd be too much for us, be too much. Okay,.

J

Now yeah, I'm persuaded, I think, yeah the symmetry along the roadway with that across the street.

B

And looking down the street at mcdonald's and so forth, so at least I'm one voice, but.

F

And retail is about visibility and we want these businesses to succeed.

F

Sure so I'm in it sounds like if you ever had an opportunity to consolidate.

B

You know it sounds: oh yeah that'd be one favorable, yeah that'd be one here, but uh but that's only not.

B

Required- and we can't ask just as an aside- we do not have roughed in by design the electric.

J

For the sign on 1708, where the liquor stores yeah, we could put it in, but you got to tear up a lot of.

J

Real estate get the lying around in the back of the building, and so it's we never put it in so.

J

I don't ever see a sign ever going on building two, even though it was part of the the approval.

J

Of that plan we didn't rough in the electric and I can assure you there's no intention on our part to.

J

Venture into doing that in the building too, so then you crap up liberty, road.

J

Excuse, my friends, but that's exactly how it is with pylon one one pylon two.

J

Well, we certainly recognize that it could be done by some future owner and.

B

That's just the reality of it, but that's okay, but.

B

Anyway, so I appreciate your sensitivity to this, I appreciate you letting us kind of noodle through.

B

These things, the aesthetics um matter to us, yeah, appreciate it phil and myself as well.

J

Sure we appreciate that, um are there any other? Are there any uh public comments.

B

Anyone wishing to speak on this, professor, all right um well with that, then.

B

If there's no further discussion here, I'd be happy to entertain a motion to approve the final site.

B

Plan as presented noting that there are actually seven conditions put forward by the county.

H

Did you excuse me, did you want to include an additional condition about the option for the elevation for the glass yeah? I don't know if it.

B

Would be a condition or whether it would just be part of the motion saying we recognize that.

K

They could do that. I don't know, what's cleanest, I I would suggest.

K

Since we're not talking about a modification of the footprint of, what's shown on the site plan,.

K

That, if you want to discuss it, that's fine. I would urge against a condition um there may be at some.

K

Point other minor architectural variations they want to make without deviating from the footprint.

K

And I think we may wind up entering an area that is going to turn into the wild wild.

K

West, my thinking was a condition, is sort of killing a nap with a hammer too. I'm not sure.

B

We need something quite that, and I don't know that, there's a regulatory basis to.

K

Enforce that kind of architectural, given that there's no change in the footprint.

K

One, I think I'm going to give this a shot. You want to give it a go.

F

Sure yeah, um I move that we approve the site plan with the seven conditions.

F

And all thrust the developer: the flexibility to change the exterior of the building without.

F

Changing the footprint give them the alternative to go from brick to glass glass to brick,.

F

On that, on that.

F

Eastward elevation um does that work. I think that works for me.

B

Does that seem like a workable motion for you, mr paris, alex.

K

We appreciate the flexibility. I was merely saying that I'm unaware of a regulatory.

K

Scheme in the county that regulates the change from a glass facade on a portion of the side.

K

To a brick facade for something like this um and that's all I was saying.

M

I think we can do it without saying anything yeah we can, it would just streamline. I wouldn't have.

H

To come to you and say: are you okay with this change? Do you want the full commission to see it.

H

If we include this, then everybody's already okayed it, so it just cuts out when it's done.

B

Yeah, I think that, and we tend to try to streamline things where we can so not create.

B

Unnecessary impediments, so I think I'm happy with the motion in terms of whether it's workable from.

B

Our standpoint, if it seems practically workable from your standpoint- um yes, yes, thank you. Okay, so.

B

We have a motion. Is there a second very good? So we have a motion to approve the site plan.

B

With the understanding of a possible change to the elevations glass to bricks, brick glass.

B

Without having to come back to the chair or the commission, it's subject to the seven conditions.

B

In the report, that's the motion, as I understand it, that's before us is there any further discussion.

B

All right do we need a roll call, or can we do a voice vote? Okay, all in favor, all right.

B

Anyone opposed, or abstaining unanimously, approved, good luck and thank you thank.

B

All right, we think it's time for a recess, so we're going to go to recess.

B

We'll come back in about at 10 o'clock how about that.

B

B

B

uh Coming out of our recess we're heading back into the april 19 2022, planning and zone.

B

Commission meeting and we are moving forward now with item 10, which is uh preliminary subdivision.

B

Plan, it is case, number p, is in paul 18-084, shamrock estates good morning, everybody. It's.

N

Good to be in person again um so, as mentioned of david b craft bureau of development and review.

N

The next project we have on the agenda is shamrock estates file, number p-18-0084.

N

This is a major subdivision for six subdivision. Lots with me are a couple representatives, so I'll.

N

Let them introduce themselves linda alexander clsi, uh john sarah, owner.

O

Good morning, hey perfect david before you go on, I just need to disclose that.

E

I'm not involved in this project, but I do have a business relationship with some of the owners.

E

So I just wanted to put that out there. I appreciate that. Thank you.

N

So, as mentioned, this project is before the planning zone commission, as a preliminary plan.

N

So ultimately, we are looking for two actions associated with this project. The first would.

N

Be the approval of the preliminary plan of subdivision pursuant to chapter 155 and the.

N

Next would be approval of the preliminary plan of subdivision pursuant to chapter 156, which.

N

Is concurrency management so for those who are not familiar as to where the project is, it is.

N

Located in between old gamble, road and gamber road, which is also known as maryland, route, 91.

N

Here is hughes, road and down. Here is deer park range. So if you keep taking 91 north.

N

That'll, take you to 140.. If you keep taking 91 south that'll, take you to maryland roof 32.

N

So the property itself is comprised of roughly 10 acres and is within the r 40 000 zany district.

N

The property previously had a house on it, which you can kind of see where the footprint for that.

N

Was and it had direct access onto old gambler road but, as you can see, since uh the house has been.

N

Removed in that time, other properties surrounding the property are either zone r-40000 or arzone.

N

Conservation and house private residential dwellings, the only exception to that- would be.

N

This property down here, which is currently zoned commercial, medium or c2. The property itself, is.

N

Outside of the designated growth areas, priority funding areas, as well as the water and sewage.

N

Service areas, the property and all adjoining properties, utilize, private, well and septic systems.

N

So what is being proposed, as mentioned, is a six residential subdivision lot subdivision.

N

In which the lots are ranging from roughly one and a third acres to just shy of two acres in.

N

Size, access to all of the lots will occur via construction of two shared driveways or.

N

Used to come in driveways that will have direct access onto old, gamber road as part of this plan.

N

State highway has mentioned they are prohibiting access for any lots.

N

On to gamber road, which is again maryland route 91- and that is shown down here-.

N

So carroll county code um permits a maximum of five users for a shared use. Driveway.

N

In the residential zoning district, the plan proposes that three users.

N

On each driveway will have access to old, gamma road, so the first will be a 450 foot.

N

Long houston, common driveway known as four leaf drive, which is shown on the northern side up here.

N

And it will provide access for lots three, four and five. The second driveway is a 266.

N

Foot long houston, common driveway known as clover drive and it will provide access for lots. One.

N

Two and three, both of these driveways will be 12 feet wide, which complies with our code.

N

Access for the lots again will be restricted to the use of common driveways and a declaration of.

N

Maintenance obligations for each driveway will be recorded. I believe there has one.

N

Already recorded for four lease drive, which is the northern property or the northern driveway.

N

uh That dmo or declaration of maintenance obligations will be amended to include.

N

These additional lots using the driveway uh and then again access direct access onto.

N

Maryland route 91 is prohibited per sha or state highway administration.

N

All lots are going to be served by private, well and septic systems, as mentioned.

N

Carroll county health departments have provided a preliminary approval, but they're going to require.

N

Additional items during the final review of things, zoning has approved the plans. The plan.

N

Was submitted originally on april 22nd of 2019 and was distributed to review agencies, the plan was.

N

Subject to citizen involvement during the regularly held technical review committee meeting.

N

On may 24 2019, no citizens spoke at the meeting and there haven't been any written comments.

N

After that meeting the project went before the planning zone. Commission.

N

As a concept plan on july 21st, 2022 again no citizen spoke and there.

N

Was minimal discussion by the commission in reference to having a pullover and turn around on.

N

The driveway, as well as the type of screening that was going to be required between the properties.

N

And maryland route 91., and so just to give a a better idea as to how the project looks.

N

These are all from google maps, and so this shows kind of the curvature of the.

N

The lot itself and the existing house that was up there now this is the existing driveway to that.

N

House that has since been torn down- and this is the other side which kind of shows.

N

um That neighboring property, that is zoned c2, is currently being used for farm.

N

So the development is exempt from the requirements of floodplain management and water resource.

N

Management landscape has granted preliminary approval with an approval of a variance requesting.

N

Release of the code required dirt berm and the reduction in the landscape, plantings.

N

Required along maryland route 91. forest conservation has granted approval of the.

N

Of the proposal and approved a variance for the removal of certain specimen trees on site.

N

Grading and sediment control has drained approval of the preliminary plant storm water management.

N

Has granted preliminary approval of dry wells and wide shoulders along the driveways are.

N

Being shown to address it as requirements, there's also two publicly owned soon-to-be.

N

Publicly owned stormwater management, quantity control, facilities that are being created so.

N

I'll go back here, so one of the facilities is shown up here in this area.

M

And then the other facility is shown down here in this area.

N

In the review, the department of planning determined that the proposed plan is consistent.

N

With the 2014 carroll county master plan, land use, designation of residential load density.

N

As well as a 2014 water and sewer master plan, so with all of that being said, pursuant to chapter.

N

155 staff recommends approval of the preliminary plan subject to the following: seven conditions: the.

N

First being that the owner and developer enters into a public works agreement with carroll county.

N

That guarantees completion of any required improvements that a declaration of maintenance.

N

Obligations for each using common driver would be recorded simultaneously with the subdivision plan.

N

That parcel is shown on the plans as parcel a and parcel c, those being the stormwater management.

N

Parcels uh being deeded to carroll county commissioner, simultaneously with the record plot.

N

That the parcel shown on the plans is parcel b, which is this parcel up here. That runs the length.

N

Of the property, this parcel b is to be deeded to state highway administration for the road widening.

N

That a stormwater management, easement and maintenance agreement be granted the county.

N

Commissioners, with the record plot that a landscape maintenance agreement be granted to.

N

The county commissioners, with the record plan and, finally, that any changes to the preliminary plan.

N

As submitted and approved by the commission, herein be resubmitted to the commission for further.

N

Review and approval, and so prior to moving on to the next section, which is all about concurrency.

N

Management, uh if there's any questions or anything that you have for myself or or either of them here.

B

I have one question in reading the report it talks about. It says: farce conservation.

B

And you, and you said this: dude forest conservation has granted approval of the.

B

Proposal and approved a variance for the removal of certain specimen trees on site.

B

Is the variance to get rid of trees or is the variance to not get rid of trees?.

B

To get rid of to get rid of it, not all of them, but um there's a couple that are.

O

Getting removed and then there's a two of them that we are um impacting, but we're not removing.

O

Okay, okay and forest conservation has agreed with that. Yes, okay, thank you. Any other questions.

N

Okay, we're going to roll right into concurrency management.

N

um So, as everyone may be aware, pursuant to chapter 156 of the county code, once.

N

The department has determined that the residential development plan may be presented to the commission. The plan is reviewed for available threshold capacity.

N

This involves testing various public facilities to ensure this isn't going to have a negative impact.

N

So first we'll look at police so without going through all the numbers. Ultimately,.

N

With the number of funded positions and the ratio of law enforcement positions,.

N

To the carroll county population, at the end of february, 2022 was 1.57 based on a total of 255.

N

Positions which would be those that have been sworn in and those that are funded.

N

The ratio of law enforcement positions to carroll county population as of the end of february 2022.

N

Was 1.46, including the development project development projects in the pipeline along.

N

With the funded positions, the ratio will be over 1.3 and services are adequate if.

N

The projected ratio of sworn law enforcement officers to population.

N

Is 1.3 per thousand so for this project, police services are deemed adequate.

N

Next, we'll move on to schools, so the proposed subdivision is located in the mechanicsville.

N

Elementary west middle and westminster high attendance areas, in accordance with the.

N

Criteria established in chapter 156: all schools are rated adequate for fiscal years, 2022 to 2027.

N

So unless you want me to I'm going to gloss it, I'm not going to go through all of you number three.

B

You got them in the report yeah, I did last month and it was a lot so, um but with all of.

B

Them being adequate, I think it's and if we have questions I'll, ask you, but we appreciate you.

N

Okay, great um so next on the list would be fire and emergency medical services. So the proposed.

N

Subdivision is located in the gamber fire and emergency medical services district. The.

N

Most recent data from the office of public safety reports that for the two-year period of april 2020.

N

To march 2022 late and no response to statistical data indicates that of the first due total.

N

Fire calls in the gamer district 1.54 percent were categorized as no responses and 4.62 as late and.

N

No responses of the first due ems calls 1 were categorized as no responses and 1 as late and.

N

No responses so with that gamber is rated adequate for late and no response criteria for fire and ems.

N

With regard to fire call average response times for the same two-year period so april, 2020 to.

N

March 2022 gamber had an average response time of 8 minutes and 40 seconds, which is deemed.

N

Approaching inadequate with regard to emergency medical services call average response time, gamber.

N

Had an average response time of 6 minutes and 37 seconds, which is deemed adequate, so services are.

N

Rated adequate if, when utilizing an average over the previous 24 months response time is 8 minutes.

N

Or? Less from the time of dispatch to on-scene arrival with adequate apparatus and personnel.

N

Services are rated approaching inadequate if, when utilizing the same time over 24 months,.

N

Response time is between 8 minutes and 10 minutes.

N

From time of dispatch to onscene arrival with adequate apparatus and personnel.

N

Along with that, the primary route from the firehouse to the proposed development does.

N

Not include travel over bridges and cannot adequately support fire and ems apparatus.

N

Which is deemed adequate and finally old gambler road is rated as adequate.

N

So with that, um with regard to a preliminary plan, I'm just going to read this. I think I.

N

Do it every single time straight from the code, the code states, if a public facility or service.

N

Is inadequate and a relief facility is planned in the six-year cip to address the inadequacy.

N

Or mitigation is accepted by the county pursuant to chapter 156 or a public facility or service is.

N

Approaching inadequate during the current cip, the planning commission may conditionally approve the.

N

Plan to proceed to the final plan stage and issue, a tentative recreation schedule and tentative.

N

Building permit reservation, subject to modification at the final plan stage.

N

So currently, police, schools, roads and ems are considered inadequate or are considered adequate.

M

Fire is considered approaching inadequate, based solely on that dispatch time to arrival.

N

Per the above reference code, planning commission may conditionally improve the plan to proceed to.

N

The final stage and issue a tentative recognition schedule and tentative building permit reservation.

N

Subject to modifications at the final plan stage, so it should also be noted. I'm sure everybody's.

N

Aware, as this progresses forward to get closer to getting final approval by the planning commission.

N

It will be retested for all of these services as well.

N

So, pursuant to chapter 156 staff recommends that the planning commission conditionally approve.

N

The preliminary plan with the conditions as follows: police schools, roads and ems are.

N

Considered adequate fire is considered approaching an adequate. The building permit reservation.

P

Is for six lots in fiscal year, 23 subject to modification at the final plaque stage.

N

The recordation schedule requires the plant to be recorded within 24 months of preliminary approval.

N

And finally, the building permit reservation is allowed to roll over year after year.

N

Until the sunset provision takes effect and the preliminary plan becomes deployed, so that's the.

N

End of my report happy to answer any questions. I I'm sure they are as well. Do you all have.

O

Anything to add to the presentation: no, we don't as we'll ask what answer any questions you got.

O

E

It's pretty straightforward, so it's conditional because of the approaching.

E

Inadequate, that's exactly right! So should that get better and the project gets done before 23.

E

Then it could be reversed and the lots could be done in 22, possibly it's very well possible. So.

N

With with this reservation, as it's mentioned, it's subject to change as we move through the.

N

Process so, depending on how quickly this moves through, it's very well possible. Okay,.

F

I guess my only my only question is about the when we put in these drops these.

F

Common drops and using common is and it, and it does go to ms right, you know when you pull down.

F

The wrong street they should have pulled in the second drive, not the first one they get in there.

F

And there's no radius back there, where they can turn around. They have to back out.

F

And so I think we really do are in ask people a disservice when we put in all.

F

These flag, lots and drives that don't don't have a radius at the end of them.

F

So I would ask the question you know: is it I can't really tell there's some circles on there.

F

There, it really is no cul-de-sac, but at the end of this drive it just it basically is the driveway.

F

That pulls into the the only difference on these okay, so first of all, four leaf drive is already.

O

Built okay, already 12 foot wide. The difference is when you have some of these shorter ones. Okay,.

O

These homes are big homes, with at least two to three car garages: okay, so, for instance, on.

O

Clover drive when you come back that drive those driveways are going to be. You know, 20 feet wide.

O

Just to get to the houses, so when you talk about turning them around, you know there are driveways.

O

There and most of these driveways are at least 20 feet wide anymore, because most people are building.

O

You know two-car three-car garages, even the ones that even those houses that are.

O

Built out there right now on the other side of four leaf, have larger driveways in them.

O

So when you get back to those ends and you're talking about them, turning around to get back.

O

Out there are driveways off of the ends of those. Now when you get to the longer using commons.

O

That are like a thousand feet that the houses are so far apart. I agree that you don't hear.

O

When you get back to the end of cloverleaf, you basically have three driveways coming right off.

O

The end of that thing, they're going to be wide enough that they would have to back in.

O

We're also, you know, I mean that's kind of where we were at.

O

And I just wanted you're thinking the driveway, the the driveway itself will be 20 feet wide. Most of.

O

These driveways are 20 feet wide when they're, when the houses are sitting closer to these, they may be.

O

10 or 12 going into where the house is, but when they get back closer to the house, very few people.

O

When they, when they, if you talk about putting the truck in one of these they're at least 30,.

O

Feet deep and 20 feet wide at those houses, some of them as wide as 30 if they put a three-car.

O

Garage in place because they've got to be able to get into the garage sure and we got to be able.

O

To back out so they do start to get a little bit larger on these larger houses on the small houses.

O

You know that you know they're on small lots. You don't have that as much, but on these you do.

E

So I think um full disclosure, my husband, built on four leaf, so they were smaller going in.

E

But only when they got back to the garage area they expand and they get bigger. So but they're.

E

Still, probably like I don't know, maybe 40 feet or so before you get back to that expanded right, but.

O

If you were, if you pulled in a piece of equipment- and you went to back it out depending on where.

O

You're at you're going to be backing in you would be backing into one of the other driveways, but.

O

But you're still going to be there's still ways of maneuvering back in there.

O

And we do try to put when you get into those longer driveways when you're talking about 500.

O

600 000 feet long we've been trying to put those circles at the end of them. um If possible, you.

O

Know, but it is a balancing act between when do you do it? When don't you do it when do.

O

You put a public road and it's only 300 feet, long versus a houston common. That's only 300 foot long.

O

So well, just again, I I may have gotten hosed, but I've got a three-car garage. My driveway is not.

F

20 feet wide, there's no way I mean when you get back to the garage area. It is, but that.

F

Length of it's right, it's not going back, but when you get back in there right, it all depends on how.

F

Close yeah, you can play basketball in the garage area, but yeah. The driveway is a normal and even 30.

A

Foot, you can't really turn a fire truck around, not very easily. No, I uh I hesitate to chime in.

G

Here but uh I've backed a lot of fire engines over the last 47 years and 12 feet is challenging.

G

And I will also remind you that there are several homeowners that don't want you backing into their.

G

Driveway because those driveways aren't rated for large equipment now, ambulances are one thing.

G

Although they're getting bigger every day too, but the consideration to put something.

G

In as if as you're talking about is certainly something, I think that needs to be looked at.

G

I'm not saying necessarily here but in the future, because that's that's really important yeah I mean.

F

Your points taken in terms of scale of the of the and you're as the owner I get it. You know, we've.

F

Got six lots here. I don't know that the scale warrants it, but we we're seeing a bunch of this.

F

Guys- and I just you know, we need to start raising the flag here, because you know we're going to see.

F

Nothing but decreased response times, because we've all seen it where a fire truck pulls in.

F

And they're they're turning around and they're going, they just went to the wrong spot and it's.

F

Not that you know how do you go to the right spot when everything in this area is called deer.

F

Deer park, something right um and then okay anyway I'll shut up, I'm I'm fine with the way.

F

It is, but I just we got to start raising the flag on this thing a little bit. I wonder if there's a.

M

I mean, instead of it, falling to us every time to say we want to change your plan to take this into.

B

Account it'd be helpful if the code actually dealt with this in a way that I'll say I'll chime in.

N

So, within the development review manual, which was codified back in the early 2000s.

N

There is provisions in there that say if your driveway exceeds 500 feet. You.

N

Have to have a pull off area and you have to have a turn around somewhere either in.

N

The middle or at the end of the driveway so being is how both of these fall under that.

N

500 foot threshold: that's why they're not code required there. You go all right, very good, mom.

B

Don't know what that was silly watch.

G

I am, I appreciate you looking up the code. Thank you very much. You got a commissioner.

B

Michael, not did you any other just since I'm the rookie.

L

The the fire and emergency response ratings are based on is it? Is it in a radius or is it.

L

You know company-wide how whatever their geography they cover is because.

L

I know gamble I'm. I live off of the airport gamber's only three miles away from this, so.

L

I would think the response time would be less than what their average is.

N

So that's a very good question um and from what I understand is each district has well a district.

N

That they're covering, but they may not always be the ones that are they're heading to this first.

N

So, depending on commissioner, you may have better understanding of this, but, depending on you know,.

N

What's happening elsewhere, it's possible that gamber was called to another location.

N

And then somewhere, local was called here right and so you're getting response from people.

N

That aren't within that gamber district that are driving to this location and that's being counted.

N

Within this area yeah- and this this is going to say we're actually going to have a concurrency.

D

Management report, as our next item and that'll get it a lot of these questions. I know it doesn't help.

D

For this, but it'll help, you understand a little bit more about how those decisions are made.

L

Awesome, we're still learning absolutely the uh and this property slopes significantly. I don't know.

L

Significantly but um the decent amount from old gambler down to and what is the landscape plan for.

L

The property owners along 91., so there is landscaping shown for. I can't read that lot number.

N

But for this lot right here, there's landscaping shown and as mentioned there was a landscape.

N

Variance requested and approved by the department of land and resource management.

N

Regarding existing vegetation, that's here for this line, and so I'm going to go back.

N

So you can kind of see the existing vegetation here that was deemed adequate for the provisions.

N

Of landscape, and then they were told to supplement in in this open area here.

N

And then I, as mentioned there was, is a could require dirt berm that would be required.

N

But they were granted immunity from that via that variance and linda well. In reality, um the berm was.

O

The house sits so much substantially higher than 91, however, for a noise perspective.

O

The berm was, we were granted a variance to the berm, but we were told as a condition of the.

O

Variance to beef up and double the amount of landscaping, so what we normally would have.

O

Had to put in there for screening of trees and stuff, like that, it's double now as those trees.

O

Get larger, obviously, that's going to be more of a noise barrier and more of a shield, but.

O

We got to give the chance for them to grow, so they'll be installed, double what we normally.

O

Would have had to have done if we would have put a berm in place. Is that just a long 90.

B

I mean uh yeah low 91, or is that also along the southern border between the adjacent property.

B

Owner in the site, no just along 91, just along the backing of 91 and then lot 5 has the new.

O

Brand new landscaping and lot 6 has the existing trees that are already in place.

O

That we're using because we're not disturbing any of those trees in the construction.

O

So it was, you know, don't take out the trees and plus I those trees kind of sit a little bit on.

O

Top of a little bit up a hill more than the ones on light, five, so we're using the existing trees.

O

Our five and six, the lots that yes adjacent to the site. So this would be six here, yes and then.

N

This would be five over here when, when we were here before the minutes reflect that uh mr hoff.

B

Not this, mr huff asked for the landscaping along the southern property line.

B

To screen between the two different uses to be addressed more thoroughly in the preliminary plan.

B

Which I read to mean between this site and the adjacent property to the south commercial property.

B

A commercial property exactly there is a house there, there's a house, they built their house there.

O

Right yeah there, so the house has been constructed on that commercial piece. There's a private house.

O

That sits right there, those trees that are already there, that you see we're not really intending to.

O

Impact those trees, so they're gonna remain they're. Gonna remain as much as well as much as it's on us.

O

So they've torn a couple of the trees down um along there. That's on them.

E

Yeah they look a little sparse and some it does now. But when you look at them in the field, it.

O

Looks you know I mean like there's they're all deceased deciduous trees along there, any other.

B

Questions from here are there any members of the public that wish to comment on this plan.

B

All right hearing none, um then the chair would be happy to entertain a motion um pursuant to chapter.

B

155 regarding approval of their preliminary plan, subject to.

B

The seven conditions listed in the staff report, if you're so inclined.

B

Nobody can take a step. Okay. um Let me.

F

I'll move that we approve the site plan as submitted pursuant to uh the seven stipulations.

F

Pursuant to chapter 155 and the seven stipulations uh submitted the staff, a second.

B

All right, so we have a motion to approve pursuant to chapter 155, subject to the seven conditions.

B

Listed in the staff report- and we have a second to that- is there any further discussion all right all.

B

In favor all right all right, I'm going to pose or abstain, all right that will be unanimously.

B

Approved and is there a motion regarding pursuant to chapter 156., I'll move that we approve the.

F

Development review pursuant to chapter 156 and the four stipulations submitted, the staff.

B

Okay, we have a motion to approve the preliminary plan pursuant to chapter 156, subject to the four.

B

Conditions set forth in the staff report and we have a second. Is there any further discussion.

B

All in favor aye aye opposed your state. It is unanimously approved. Thank you. Thank you.

B

All right, uh we will move on to item 11, which is the concurrency management.

B

B

Manufacturer I'm looking at where we might have action items because we have a member.

B

Who has to leave by 11 30? I think we'll be done by 11 30, but I just want to make.

B

Sure we don't end up without a quorum, um the only other action item we have.

D

Item 14, tawny, town annexation. We need a planning commission recommendation to go to the board of.

D

County commissioners, with regard to the uh zoning waiver that is requested as part of.

D

This annexation, is it your uh best guess that we'll have that done within the hour.

D

Probably so maybe we should move to mend the agenda change up the items. I know it's a bit of.

B

An audible for the staff, but if we're able to could we move up, could we go from? um Could we.

B

Move up item 14 to make it our next item. Is that give me a minute, of course, yeah yeah? Why don't so.

B

Why don't we take five minutes? Does that give you enough time? Yeah! That's fine! Yeah, we're right here.

D

We just have to bring everyone. Okay, so we'll take a five minute recess. That way you can come down.

B

I appreciate you, your flexibility on this and then we'll reconvene in five minutes. Thank you.

O

O

B

We will reconvene the uh planning zoning commission meeting of april 19th 2022.

B

um And uh prior to the recess, we were talking about possibly our agenda and it seems prudent.

B

That perhaps we ought to entertain a motion to actually amend the agenda. I will move that we.

F

Amend the agenda for april our april 19th meeting, which we're doing right now and move item number.

F

14 uh above item number 11, and that we delete the recess because we just had a recess uh at 12..

E

A second all right: we have a motion to move 14 ahead of 11, get rid of the recess which was item.

B

12. any discussion all in favor aye. Anyone opposed very good. The agenda is so amended.

B

And with that, we will now move to uh the tawny, town, annexation, sewell property. Thank you for.

B

Your flexibility, yeah, no problem uh accommodating the timeline, and uh we will turn it over to you so.

D

Thank you all um for getting this on the agenda. I know this was part of the revisions for today.

D

um This is very interesting. Annexation hannah did a great job doing a lot of research.

D

For tawny, town you'll see why she goes through her presentation um and then I believe, clark.

D

Shafer who's representing the souls is here today. Unfortunately, the town was supposed to.

D

Be our city of chinatown was supposed to be here, um so, hopefully they'll be able to participate.

D

As we move forward in this process, my guess is there: they tried to time it based on the agenda.

Q

And they're they, but hopefully they'll roll in here soon. Okay- um and this agenda item is also.

D

Before the commissioners on thursday um and the town is well aware and we'll be there for that,.

D

Meeting as well um so with them have hannah, go through the presentation on the annexation number.

D

48 school property: yes, we are meeting with the commissioners on thursday and then as well as next.

P

Thursday, so the city will have two opportunities, if not today, to speak. So, as we said, we are here.

P

To talk about the school property annexation into the city of tawny town, we are here for discussion.

P

With you all and then a recommendation on the zoning waiver to the board of county commissioners.

P

So a little about the property, we are there's a proposed annexation of approximately 126 acres.

P

The way it is oriented we have maryland 140 to the south of the annexation area and then we.

P

Have harney road which splits the annexation area and runs north south? The annexation area.

P

Is split, as I said, between the west annexation and the east annexation, the west annexation is.

P

Approximately 115 acres on the west side of harney road and then we have the east annexation on the.

P

East side of harney, road, the west annexation- is this big parcel, as I said, approximately 115 acres.

P

And then approximately 10 acres is this parcel here, so this plaque was provided by the city.

P

Of tawny, town again the annexation area, if you're able to see the light blue highlight.

P

That is the annexation area and then we have the county in the red and municipality in the.

P

Blue again, we have maryland 140 to the south and then harney road splitting the annexation.

P

Here we have the orientation of the relation to the corporate limits of tawny town. We are in the.

P

Northwest quadrant of the corporate limits we have the corporate limits in the red hashing.

P

And the annexation area in the blue and the growth area boundary in the black and gold border.

P

Here is an aerial view of the annexation area. Again, the annexation area is in blue. It is.

P

Improved on the west annexation, with dwellings in agricultural buildings, the east annexation.

P

Area of the 10 acres is completely unimproved. We have the growth area boundary. You can see.

P

It's kind of funky at the top. The city is aware that there is parts of the annexation area that.

P

Is not in the growth area, um I'm assuming that the area, the growth area boundary is.

P

A little funky because it follows a stream. That's on the northern part of the property.

P

And moving on to zoning, the entire 126 acres of the annexation area is zoned.

P

Agricultural with the county, the petitioners, which is the city of tawny town, are requesting.

P

Our 10 000 zoning. So since we are going from approximately one dwelling unit per 20 acres.

P

To 4.3 dwelling units per acre of under the r 10 000, a zoning waiver is required and was requested.

P

Moving on to designated land use, I'm going to split it into the west annexation and the east.

P

Annexation again we have conservation in the green, approximately 39 acres and then the medium density.

P

Residential, which is approximately 77 acres, so, as I said, um the requested zoning is our.

P

10 000., this zoning request is not consistent with what these lane use. Designations are.

P

um Looking at the east annexation, we have the suburban residential.

P

Which is consistent with the requested zoning of r10 000., so just to recap, the west annexation.

P

Is not going to be consistent with what they have in their community comprehensive plan.

P

So, moving on to water and sewer, it is currently in the long range for both water and sewer.

P

It is the city is aware that they are under some capacity issues for both water and sewer.

P

These numbers are taken from the carroll county, water and sewer master plan, and the future demand.

P

Is based on the 10-year projection, so this first number is based on the existing and priority water.

P

And sewer categories so, as I said, the property is in long range, so it is not being included in these.

P

Gallons per day and capacity numbers so currently without including the annexation demand.

P

They are at 88 capacity for water and 83 capacity for sewer, mde or maryland.

P

Department of environment prefers that all systems for both water and sewer be under 80.

P

So for agency comments, we have not received anything yet from maryland. Department of planning.

P

We are hoping to have their comments for the county commissioners on thursday.

P

We have received comments from the carroll county department of public works and the.

P

Bureau of engineering and they are requiring that harney road from maryland 140 to the northern.

P

Part of the annexation area be included in the annexation, so this means the road would be owned.

P

And maintained by the city of tommytown, so putting that in perspective, department of public works.

P

And engineering is requiring that this road be included in the annexation. So from this northern.

P

Point down to um the municipality: this itself creates an issue for the annexation.

P

Maryland state code or the annotated code states that no enclave can be made.

P

By an annexation area, an enclave would be made if this annex, if the road would be included in.

P

The annexation, because this county land would be completely surrounded on all sides by municipality.

P

Like you wouldn't have this access of harney road any longer if it was included in the municipality.

P

So, in conclusion, as we said, we are presenting to the county commissioners on the 21st on this.

P

Thursday, at this point, we are not recommending support of this annexation and the zoning waiver.

P

To recap, the requested zoning of our 10 000 is inconsistent with the land use designations.

P

In their community comprehensive plan, the high density residential requested zoning.

P

Can will not be supported by the water and sewer infrastructure? Currently, as it stands in the city.

P

And annexing harney, road, like department of public works and engineering, is requiring.

P

Would create an illegal enclave per maryland, annotated code.

P

So that's a lot, no got it very good. Does that conclude your presence? Yes, yeah all right, mr.

B

Schaefer. Thank you um note for the record that I just now was handed the staff report. So I've had a.

Q

Didn't really have a preview, although I asked for one yesterday.

Q

So I have a few comments, as you can imagine um first, the uh assertion that this is not consistent.

Q

With the master plan is questionable and I'm going to use the word, it's pretty consistent with.

Q

The master plan- and the reason is, if you saw that zoning map, can you put that up there again or that.

Q

That master plan map you see that the the first of all well, let me say, first of all,.

Q

This is an annexation of a of a farm that has been talked about in tinytown for about 10 years.

Q

It's the sewell christmas tree farm is what it's known as, and the town has considered annexing.

Q

This off and on for 10 years, the sewells have owned it for those periods of time.

Q

About a year or two ago, uh the sewells approached tawny, town again and tawnytown.

Q

Said, yes, we think now is the time and the town. I think it's important to note, has initiated this.

Q

Resolution to annex, in other words, they have proposed a resolution adopted it at a council.

Q

Meeting and that doesn't mean they're committed to annexing they're, going to have a public hearing.

Q

In may and they're going to hear from carroll county and the maryland department of planning.

Q

And everybody else before they make their final decision.

Q

In fact, what what is proposed and there's an annexation agreement in place with the.

Q

With the town that contemplates an age-restricted development on this property.

Q

That has been a concept plan shown about no more than 340 units.

Q

85 duplex and I think it's uh 85 or 140 singles but they'll, be clustered on that.

Q

R, that that medium density, residential portion and by the way the development is all on the west side.

Q

The the east side is not proposed for development. This time the conservation zone land will be.

Q

Largely or entirely open space that will be offered to the town if they want it.

Q

For a park or more likely used as open space to support the age, restricted development.

Q

The reason I say that, as it's pointed out, medium density residential is the land use designation.

Q

For the bulk of this property right now, that's roughly r20, not r10. Okay r10 is considered.

Q

Higher density for obvious reasons, but tawnytown has a community village zoning category that it's.

Q

Explicitly understood that this development will will ask to be developed under that under that.

Q

Rubric- and that is closer to the medium density designed for this thing, because it will not it.

Q

Will cluster the development and will not allow any development on the bulk of the property.

Q

I don't if I'm I'm going to miss this in the report, but I don't know that I did and it's a.

Q

Very, I think a key important point is that this annexation, if, uh if approved and if it.

Q

The development takes place will involve the uh construction of a collect, a collector road shown.

Q

On the tonytown master plan for up many many years running across the entire property or a good piece.

Q

Of the property, the intention is eventually it'll connect up to 140 uh in future development that.

Q

Collector road is a major reason why tawnytown thinks this might make some sense. It will be.

Q

Constructed and paid for by the developer to collector road standards as we go through this.

Q

The statement in the staff report I mean I just I don't know whether this is semantic or not, but.

Q

To the effect that the that some county department is quote requiring end quote that harney road be.

Q

Annexed as this as part of this development is simply uh not accurate. Well, it's simply.

Q

They can't require it. Okay, they can recommend it. uh They can suggest that it makes some sense.

Q

In fact, and we've discussed this with tawny town from from day, one.

Q

The maintenance, upkeep ownership, etc of public roads is always an issue in annexations.

Q

For obvious reasons, every annexation involves taking county property that presumably has.

Q

Some road service and and annexing it to a municipality. It is common and customary.

Q

For the for the municipalities to discuss these matters with the county and to make arrangements.

Q

The arrangement that probably, I would suggest will happen in this case is that the town will probably.

Q

Be at the county's request, slash requirement um that the town will maintain harney road.

Q

That portion of it not that it has to be annexed, there's plenty of roads out there that are in.

Q

140 running through the middle of tony town is not owned by tony town. It's owned by the state.

Q

State of maryland, there's plenty of roads out there that have these arrangements made.

Q

So, uh and- and by the by this is an this, is uh I mean it's been about literally 10 years, but.

Q

This is a five seven ten year project to get this through in terms of the water and sewer. Yes, it's.

Q

True right now, tonytown does not have capacity to serve this. That's explicitly understood. It's.

Q

Addressed in the annexation agreement that taunt and tonytown believes that they will be able to.

Q

Increase their water out their water and their sewer capacity, they have an ini study gun. You.

Q

Don't need, I don't know that you need the details now or want them, but tonytown believes that it is.

Q

Likely that they will be able to achieve capacity to services, development and they're.

Q

Not unsophisticated they've looked at that they've looked at the specific number of units that could.

Q

Go in here and how they could do it, they know they would have to amend their water and sewer master.

Q

Plan which, as you know, goes through a process with the maryland department of planning and if and.

Q

Only if that occurs, this development will will go forward if that doesn't occur, and it's this is a.

Q

Standard track for development, especially for a larger, you know you you, you start the early parts.

Q

And then you see if, uh if, if capacity is there, you don't tonytown has in place a uh an adequate.

Q

Facilities ordinance that talks about these capacities and what it says is if those things.

Q

Don't exist, your development doesn't go through you're. Familiar with that. You just did your.

Q

Concurrency management thing for subdivision same thing there, so it's not like this is an untram.

Q

This that recommending this annexation and allowing it to occur would create any evils. I'm.

Q

Not seeing a reasons I mean, I guess the reasons I'm seeing that planning the staff's recommending.

Q

Against it, are it's not it's not consistent with the master plan. Okay, I mean, I think it pretty.

Q

Much is um that harney road has to be uh annexed, which it doesn't um clearly um and by the way from.

Q

Day, one staff thought this was an enclave turned out, they were wrong um and uh but I and there are.

Q

I'm not hearing any I'm, not I'm not discerning any really reasons why this is against the public.

Q

Health safety and welfare, tony town would like to annex it all right. We think they they do. They've.

Q

Moved ahead this far they are. They are well aware of the facilities they need to have in place to.

Q

To do so, they view the development as a positive development for the town.

Q

Support their main street, they apparently have been fairly happy with the development on the.

Q

Other side of town, the carroll vista development that was retirement and.

Q

They I I would argue to you that there's no real reason why the county.

Q

Would would view this as an evil to the county or to the town or the citizens of carroll county.

Q

um This is something that the town should be allowed to go to go forward with um and.

Q

Again, go through the long process, so we would appreciate uh your favorable consideration and and.

Q

uh Request uh your recommendation to the commissioners uh that they uh well, I guess.

Q

Approve the annexation is not quite the right terminology, but we we. We need a waiver, because the.

Q

Agricultural zoning- that's currently there we're way over that. So that's why we need to waiver.

Q

Now, we've already heard that it's master plan I mean, if I was in here with a master plan ag land.

Q

You know that was land use, that was land use, designated agricultural, not medium density.

Q

Residential, but it's obvious, this piece has always been envisioned that master plan designation.

Q

Tells you that this piece has always been envisioned for a fairly significant.

Q

Residential development, for I think obvious reasons it completes the collector street.

Q

It adds to tony towns, uh residential uh uh um housing base uh and they're in favor of it. So.

Q

Appreciate your consideration, I'm happy to answer your questions. Thank you, mr shafer. um I have just.

B

A couple questions and then I'll be glad to turn it over to my colleagues, the um one question is.

B

Maybe it's from mrs weber. You had mentioned that this proposed annexation is within the designated.

B

Growth area is that the county's designated growth area or the it's the town's designated growth.

B

Area right, the town, it's their municipal, girth area, which is designated jointly with the town.

D

And the county and it's just the northern portion again, I think there was a boundary where, when the.

D

Boundary was drawn, they used the river feature as opposed to the property boundary right, so.

P

And it's that's a minimal issue and that's not really a cause to yeah if it was outside yeah.

M

If it was outside the municipal growth area, um those annexations um need to be thought of.

D

In a different way and um municipal growth area, boundaries need to be established prior to that.

B

And then, uh mr shaver, just a couple questions for you. I I certainly take your point that uh the way.

B

This is envisioned to be developed. You were saying this looks pretty consistent with the master plan.

B

But the technical information, I think is that would be r10 000 um is our ten in your view, is.

B

Our ten thousand consistent with the master plan, in my view, it is uh especially when, coupled with.

Q

The fact that the community village process will be used to develop it, and I think, if you see the.

Q

I don't have it in front of me, but the the tawny town prepared a.

Q

A statement to send the mayoral department of planning in which they talked about the.

Q

Consistency or lack thereof and they're they're. Okay, with that consistency,.

Q

So they're, as far as you understand that their view is that it is.

B

This would be consistent with the uh I don't want to put those words in their mouth, but.

Q

I do know that they they are aware that r10 is not does not match up with medium density.

Q

Okay, I also know that they're aware that their community village requires.

Q

Certain densities that uh or allows densities that they, I think they view as being consistent.

Q

With that generally with that designation, um and so as mr street first said too, we are waiting.

D

For as part of our process, we sent it to those revealing agencies and we're still waiting to.

D

Hear back from maryland's department of planning when this was originally submitted, we did work.

D

With the maryland department of planning ahead of time, um the information that we were given was.

D

More in terms of it was a. It was an enclave upon further review, with a different plaque.

D

The determination from our legal staff was that it was. It was not an enclave after we reviewed.

D

Some more details, so it is not a legal enclave and as far as the requirement goes, mr shafer's.

D

Park, we can't require the road be annexed in, but we didn't want to change the words from our public.

D

Works department as part of their memo to us, so that was what they wanted to see happen with the.

D

Roadway of harmony, road, okay and certainly reading this that report, it seems like the enclave issue.

B

Was important if it's you know at least I read it as that was a concern. It creates an enclave, but it.

D

Sounds like it doesn't create an enclosure, not a legal enclave, but you know from our perspective, I.

D

It's completely surrounded absolutely by by the municipality. The only thing that is not.

D

Making it um completely starting there is an opening, is harney road not being annexed into.

D

The town, so that was that was our concern. You know just we have so many annexations um that are that.

D

That have been like this in the past, um especially in the hampstead manchester area. We have these.

D

Little pockets um and it can be problematic from especially a public works maintenance perspective.

D

As well as we have, the opposite, which I would argue is probably not is almost a leapfrog.

D

Annexation, it's not real property to real property where we have long strings of roadway connecting.

D

um Annexed land into a corporate limit, so you know moving it from that perspective, I mean yes, is it.

D

Is it technically a legal enclave? No, it is not, but is it something that by looking at.

D

It it's surrounded um and that's the evidence we have to go on and what we were looking at.

D

And this is just our recommendation from from our planning perspective, of um our thoughts on whether.

D

This is an appropriate annexation. Yeah mr shape, let's be careful here not to fall into the trap of.

Q

Using the word enclave and saying end the story: let's look, let's do what we what we should do.

Q

Which is, let's look at what, if any evils or negative consequences are created by this.

Q

Configuration okay, because that's what the enclave rule is is designed to do. It's designed to prevent.

Q

These evil consequences, such as uh hi I live in one of the 68 lots. That's that's, surrounded by.

Q

The city of tony town- I want somebody out here now to correct my zoning order.

Q

No ma'am you're in the county, uh uh you know or the the the snow plow is driving along and.

Q

Goes up, let me see I'm I'm at mile marker two. I better pick up the plow, I'm no longer in carol.

Q

Telney town, you know I'm no longer in carol those and the confusion of hi police get out of here.

Q

You're calling the wrong police department- those are the evils that that now, what do we got here?.

Q

We got a pharmat, that's not quite surrounded, but that has a lot of county property around it.

Q

And by the way these, if you were to look at municipal boundaries around.

Q

The county- and I invite you to do so in your spare time. um You will see a lot of.

Q

If not, some almost identical to this other ones, crazy, it's just an issue when you've.

Q

Got municipalities you know, maggie's is in the city, and pritz is out of the city.

Q

Here now I knew that because I've done zoning work up here and and and then across the.

Q

Street uh is the the medical center's in you know the next door up the street and out so.

Q

I ask you to not just go well enclave, we're not doing it. I ask you to say first of all, it's not.

Q

A legal enclave we now know, even though planning told the department of planning it was an enclave.

Q

And they stopped reviewing it, um but it's not and secondly, I'd be singing a different tune. I.

Q

You know if, if this was 60 lots in the middle of there or even 10 parcels or five parcels.

Q

This is one format everybody's frankly, this is probably going to be one of the most recognizable.

Q

Boundaries in the town by the time this is over, where, where it is there, so I think these.

Q

These these are problems that are inherent should they prevent the and then the question is.

Q

Okay, yeah: it's not clean, it's not clean, but is it? Is that a reason to say you can't you can't do.

Q

This major thing that that will that's cons pretty much consistent with your master plan. It's always.

Q

Been viewed for growth, it's in the growth boundary. I mean we're not coming in here asking for.

Q

You know, let's put we're going out, we're going six miles out of harney road and we want to do.

Q

One of these strip things where we're no, this this.

Q

This hits on on many of the cylinders. This makes sense from a lot of growth uh perspectives.

Q

It it will be required to develop responsibly because there's there's adequate facilities.

Q

Ordinances in place- and it will not go through unless there is water, sewer, etcetera. Now.

Q

I'm almost ready to shut up, because I know I've talked too much, but.

Q

But you know it's one thing to talk about the development itself and it's another thing to.

Q

Talk about the land and its zoning if this gets annexed. All that happens at that point in time is.

Q

It's in the city and it's zoned the way we proposed it. That's what has occurred.

Q

Only if many many other parameters and reviews are met, I equal facilities, subdivision regulations.

Q

Health department regulations, everything else- does one house get built on there. So it's not.

Q

Like you're by, if the county uh allows this to go through or recommends it, it goes through and gives.

Q

The waiver: um it's not like you're approving a three or four hundred unit development.

B

So can I I have just a couple questions. I want to click through.

B

Number one, the land that is sort of surrounded but technically not surrounded, is there a way to make.

B

That part of the annexation as well, so you get rid of that issue. That's an excellent question. It.

Q

Always comes up in annexations and and meaning the municipality. You you come in with the annexation.

Q

And the municipality says to you bring those six properties in two, because that would be better.

Q

Now this is a little different. You go out and knock on the six doors and they go.

Q

Oh yeah, so you want me to pay municipal taxes.

Q

And the nxn and you'll pay for the annexation, I'm not interested. I don't. I don't think I'm.

Q

Getting the services I'm not paying extra taxes, I'm happy with the county sheriff coming out here.

Q

Instead of the manchester police department, but do we know if that's been done, yeah we? Yes, we do.

Q

It's in the background, the that property in the middle was owned by a guy named dennis harner.

Q

For many many years and he lived there and it was a format it was recently bought by another person.

Q

And I don't even know if that person lives there, but it's a single family format. We do know that.

Q

That person's aware, we know that he's talked to tawnytown about it. We know that he's called up.

Q

My client in vr and said how about buying it or, let's and and our position has been.

Q

All along we don't we're, not we're not interested in buying it, but it's been look.

Q

We don't have anything against you, you annex in you want to annex in, but but before you annex in.

Q

Mr property owner know that we have spent years and tens and tens of thousands of dollars.

Q

Getting concept plans done and you just don't walk into tonytown and go.

Q

How about antx on my property and zonated r10, you got to say here's my plan and that costs money so.

Q

uh All I can say is that, right now, that's not in the cards and uh we're I but.

Q

I won't guarantee it, but that property atlantic's in uh it's very valuable.

Q

It's it's it's! It's ripe to be zoned for some residential it by the way that property, I think.

Q

Would would complete the connection of the collector road to 140. so there's an incentive.

Q

For tawnytown to go, you want annex in how many units are you going to put out there? Okay, going.

Q

To complete the collector road, but right now that isn't is is not happening and we are.

Q

We do not want that to be used as a uh a wench against us to prevent our annexation. So if I.

D

Could just um a couple things with this is a little bit different than some of the annexations.

D

That we have brought forward to you all in the past. Typically annexations are initiated by the.

D

Property owner or the property and said I want to come into you town, and what do we need to do that.

D

This was a different type of annexation. The town is initiating this particular annexation to come.

D

Into the corporate limits to move forward with the other properties too, they can be forcibly moved in.

D

As long as um 25 of the properties or the and and the value of the properties want to come in.

D

Then the other ones that don't want to be a part of the annexation would have to come in as well.

D

Does that make sense so conceptually I guess yeah so that that is how the law is written.

D

And so conceivably, everyone would have to come in south of this property. So everything in the.

D

Southern red portion in between surrounded by the well that's one one guy yeah right, yeah,.

P

You need, you would need 25 of the assessed value and then 25 of the registered voters.

P

Consent, thank you yeah. So my overriding, I guess concern is and I'm sorry to dominate this budget.

A

um Is this why I guess my question is: why is this not premature? One of the issues is no public water.

B

Public sewer we might have public water, might have public sewer, don't have capacity now, but.

B

Might have capacity in the future. Why don't we wait and see? Secondly, we've got this property.

B

Owner, that's surrounded, not technically an enclave, but maybe they become part of the annexation. Maybe.

B

They don't conversations are going to be had. Why not let those conversations happen? Why does this.

B

Need to happen now why? Why couldn't we wait until some of those things develop and then make them.

B

More informed because I mean you could obviously, uh but you don't know when that's going to occur.

Q

And this this is a step-by-step process um and it's over a five or s. You know we're.

Q

If we wait until then we would be another year or two away from getting that water, sewer and.

Q

Because it takes a year, you know to get through this, this whole process and meantime there's no.

Q

Mechanism that I know of to reserve the water in sewer, so we might lose it when they get it. If it's.

Q

In and they know what it's zoned, they tonytown can more intelligently request an amendment to their.

Q

War and sewer master plan, knowing exactly what they're asking for, because they already have it.

Q

They, you know, the water stuff involves recharge areas and that's a moving that can be a moving.

Q

Target because the county I mean I'm getting into the weeds here a little bit, but it's interesting.

Q

The county has taken in recent years to putting clauses in their ag preservation easements in.

Q

Their well in their co in the easements they buy. That say you can use it for water, recharge and.

Q

And that has the potential in giving situations to free up a lot more water to be sucked out of.

Q

The ground by the tony tonytown wells, thus the hope and and and more than I hope I mean.

Q

They're optimistic that they can free up the water, the sewer the wastewater treatment plant.

Q

They they've done an ini study. They've started an infill and infiltration study where they look for.

Q

Water, that's storm water, that's getting into their system, they fixed and I'm I'm not I'm not going.

Q

To give you the numbers, but jim, we practice the town, town manager, their first effort and.

Q

They try to cherry pick. They try to pick the best places to begin with their first effort.

Q

Yielded they think I think they're waiting to get the full numbers with the storms, like thousands.

Q

And thousands and thousands of gallons of extra capacity because they they plug some holes.

Q

Where, well, you know you know, the deal is when it rains. We treat a million gallons of wastewater.

Q

But we're really only generating 450 000 gallons of wastewater. And that's because your pipes are.

Q

Leaking so they think they have the capacity. This is the first step. I want to make one point.

Q

On waiver, which I think is important, is- and that's this- the only thing we need from the county here.

Q

Tawny, the only thing tonytown needs in the county is a waiver. They don't need permission to annex.

Q

If they don't get the waiver, they can't zone the property to r10 for five years. Okay, that's the.

Q

That's the hammer the county has here um and I'll tell you frankly, right now.

Q

If they don't give the waiver, it will kill, it'll kill the nbr deal.

Q

So I mean you, you do have a lot of the county in fact, has a lot of power. Whether tonytown wants to.

Q

Go ahead and wait five years, I don't know see if another development comes in in that time,.

Q

Frankly, it's five years before we can probably build anyway, and so let me ask.

B

You a process question so if to deal with my issue of whether this is premature or.

B

Not one option, is you just wait, some period of time you wait a year to maybe some of.

B

These unanswered questions get answered and that helps the process. How does that compare.

B

To suppose this goes forward and ultimately we recommend that it not be approved and the county.

B

Commissioners agree and they don't approve it. What does that do to the process and the timing.

B

I mean it delays it for five years. It delays it for five years um and- and you know these are.

Q

These are important, but I know they're not legally important, but they're practically important.

Q

Ronnie and laurie sewell have run a christmas tree farm on that property for long enough.

Q

In their opinion and they're, they're, elderly or you know, they're not they're, not getting.

Q

Any younger- let's just put it that way and uh they've been in there for 10 years, uh talking.

Q

To tiny towns so from a practical standpoint it would it would uh it would ruin that plan.

Q

It would also simply delay it five years and even after the five years, we'd still be subject.

Q

To the same exact things that we'd have to go through now, we might have better information.

Q

Maybe the water sewer plant had been there. Maybe tony town could develop it. uh Maybe.

Q

By the way it hadn't been brought up here, but the intersection of harney and 140 will also.

Q

Have to be dealt with and improved as part of this development there's another public infrastructure.

Q

In addition to the collector road that would get done and by the way that collector would also be.

Q

Delayed for five years or whatever, assuming it's needed for tony town's transportation structure, so.

C

Let me let me challenge you with one last thing and I'm sorry to take up too much time, but.

B

Because this is something I need to work through and I want to get your input on it.

B

As I understand your argument, it is that this is technically not an enclave, and we shouldn't be.

B

Bothered with that, because it's not tech doesn't meet the technical requirements of an enclave, but.

B

One of the other guiding principles we have is: is this consistent with the master plan.

B

And your argument there is well technically, don't worry about technically, it doesn't mostly.

B

It's consistent, it seems to the internal struggle. I'm having with your argument is.

B

It's technically we're allowed to look at whether a technical definition of an enclave.

B

Is met and it's not so don't worry about it, but don't don't take a technical view of whether.

B

There's compliance with the master plan help me with help me with that. If you would okay.

Q

Master plans are just that they're guides um they they are built in.

Q

There is some built-in flexibility there, unlike the zoning word, it's where once you're r10.

Q

You you comply with the rta.

Q

They're they they, the master plans, explicitly say they're guides for future development.

Q

And that's what they're intended to be, and that's what tony town looked at here if, in fact,.

Q

I'm not even sure this, but if I were to legally get involved in one of these things.

Q

I would say: you're telling me medium density, residential equals r20.

Q

But why didn't you just say: r20 in your master plan I mean you, you, you looked at medium density.

Q

Residential, you use terms like that, because you knew that we needed to be somewhat flexible.

Q

And and I'll reiterate, my argument, which is under the under certain uh cluster.

Q

Provisions and provisions and zoning ordinances.

Q

You can achieve what is substantially similar to a medium density, residential.

Q

With an r10 zone- and sometimes you need that r10 zoom to do it to get the cluster.

Q

um I don't have the figures, do you have the per acre figures marty or the the density per acre.

Q

Like here you know you could you could play it's, not a game, it's it's actually an interesting.

Q

Enterprise, you could take 340 units divided by the acreage and get a density per acre.

Q

And I don't know if you saw up there, but what if they had, the density per acre at r10 is 4.3 or.

Q

Something 4.3 units per acre, we're not getting anywhere near there. Do the math 115 times four.

Q

That's 460. I think marty gave you an answer.

Q

So you know at r10 on 115 we're 468 units; okay, we're not 460. how much 2.95.

Q

Yeah, so we're! So, if you do that, we're we're pretty consistent with what I think people view as medium.

Q

Density in your view, that would be more consistent with that consistent and I'm trying to see how jim.

D

Just keep in mind the zoning allows for more, so we have to go by what the lane use does in nature.

D

Corresponding zoning, because no plan has been submitted.

D

Yet because it's not in the corporate limits right, you know guys. Let me relieve you for a second.

D

Because all your questions are dead on because and miss weber. I would like to ask a question.

F

And I don't need to put you on the spot, but and again the fact that the town is.

F

Asking for this and is initiating this, that all makes a lot of sense, but I'm having issues with.

F

You know it looks like a duck. It quacks like a duck. It's got webbed feet like a duck water.

F

Rolls off its back, but it's not it's a waterfowl instead and we're just not going to call it a duck.

F

Yeah because it looks like an enclave, I mean I get the technical aspect of it and I'm not.

F

Saying we should not do it because of that, but when we end up with this patchwork of.

F

Properties that are that are incorporated in properties that aren't.

F

I do think we open ourselves up for issues in terms of who is maintaining roads who is providing.

F

Emergency service, you know who who is minding the store so to speak. So I do think those are issues.

F

But having said you know just or is there anything in terms of current property owners who are in.

F

The sewer and water service area is there anything about this. That adversely affects current property.

F

Owners that we don't know, I mean I mean in terms of people who uh permits that could be.

F

Brought forward people who are expecting capacity, that sort of thing is there: is this even something.

D

We should be concerned about, we can't speak for the town, the town has their own system, they run.

D

And operate their own system, all we do is we help for when an amendment comes forward with the water.

D

And sewer master plan, they have to give us the information to justify it, and then we, the county.

D

Have to either support it if the numbers work out and that's what puts us in the mix so to speak, is.

D

That we, the county, have to put it forward so by putting it forward we're endorsing what they're.

D

Saying that they have and then mde makes the final approval, but we can't, I don't think it's fair for.

D

Us to be able to answer yeah, I I was just curious. I can answer it absolutely not. The answer is.

Q

Absolutely not, it does not affect anybody. That's currently there by by putting this in and in fact,.

Q

I can go further and say that if and when tonytown asked to amend its water and sewer master plan to.

Q

To include this property in it, that will ha that plan will have to be supported by data. That shows.

Q

They have the capacity to serve this property, okay and sort of shed some more light on that aspect.

R

With the water and sewer master plan, as hannah showed before.

R

Water, wise, there are 88 capacities today and when working with the town or the city.

R

They only have two areas, they have existing and they add fur and the properties you'll.

R

See that are in priority are the remainder of meadowbrook and the remainder of meat.

R

Each crossing and then a couple of other areas for commercial industrial and maybe a small airfield.

M

They have nothing whatsoever in the future. Okay. This is in long range again. So none of this.

R

This estimated demand is even calculated for their plan. Okay, so there again they're.

R

88 capacity for water 83 capacity for sewer again we're basing our numbers off of our.

R

10 000, obviously they're looking to do less than four than 4.5 units per acre. I just did a basic 48.

R

40 years that's less than 4.5, I mean it could be a little bit more. But with that being said,.

R

This could potentially add 100, 000 gallons of water and super. That is.

R

So, what's the what's the harm, what's the negative, if this is annexed and it doesn't.

Q

Get an enemy in the water. It's about to ask that question. It can't be a champion.

R

What's the harm well, bringing this in is going to show.

R

That they're potentially because they would then have to bring this into the water master.

R

Plan, whether it's future- because we don't have it right now- already they're not going to have.

Q

To but believe me, if they, if they had to I'd, be making a lot of money. As a lawyer going, you got.

Q

Me in your water sewer master plan give me the water today, where I'm from no, you don't.

Q

Now it does, it does say that tawny town as a long-range project is looking to provide water.

Q

And steward of this project project, which is exactly what the case is, they believe.

Q

They wouldn't be doing you know they, wouldn't they wouldn't be doing this.

Q

They believe that in time and in the near relatively near future, they're going to be able to.

Q

Convince the state of maryland and it's their by the way this isn't hampstead. This is an eldersburg.

Q

It's 2010's system. I could get it if I was an elder and he said this is going to leave the.

Q

County with a real problem here you know we, no it's it's not so one one clarification for me.

B

The town of tawny town, have they officially indic. I know they've initiated the process, but have they.

B

Initially, I mean officially indicated that they are in fact in favor and are supporting this.

B

Annexation or again is that something because they really I mean they introduced the resolution. They.

Q

Voted and talked about it and introduced. So yes, I would say I would say: yes, that's an official.

Q

But they've got to have a public hearing and they can't really decide or state they're going to do.

Q

It until they hear the public hearing for all, we know a neighbor comes out and goes.

Q

Wait a minute, you don't even own that piece of ground I own it. You know, so they.

Q

So they can't do it officially. I do. I have found a a paragraph in tonytown's report to.

Q

The annexation report on the master plan, if I may sure current land use, is agricultural.

Q

As is the current zoning per carroll county zoning map, the proposed residential and open space use.

Q

Of the property is generally consistent with the comprehensive plan for the city of tony town and.

Q

Environments, a zoning designation of r-10000 has been requested by the owner. The comp plan.

Q

Designates land uses of suburban residential, medium density, residential and conservation.

Q

For the property to remain fully consistent with the comprehensive plan, I said pretty consistent.

Q

The zoning upon annexation would be a combination of r10, r20 and open space, thus.

Q

A zoning waiver will be necessary to develop the property within five years of annexation.

Q

Under the requested r10 000 designation, so why not ask for our 20 000 instead of our 10.

Q

We couldn't fit, we couldn't put get the number of units and cluster them under the community.

Q

Bill we looked at we're we're going to go under community village, maybe 200 units yeah yeah. We we.

Q

In order to get the number of units that would make this viable, um uh we we looked.

Q

Marty looked at it and did we did a concept plan showed how the collector road could come through.

Q

The alignment of it went to tawnytown and said you sure you want this collector wrote.

Q

Because we didn't, we didn't think they'd build the other sections of it and they said well. We we do.

Q

Want it, you know, you got you build it, so we go okay, that's part of the plan. So let me interrupt.

B

You, mr schafer, because we've got a time constraint because one of our members has to leave now um and.

B

We want to make sure we have an opportunity and I've dominated the conversation. I apologize to my.

B

Colleagues here so feel, free to ask whatever questions you would like.

E

um So it's in the priority area or the designated growth area. It's in the municipal growth.

D

That is the town's ultimate corporate limits that they would like to see. Okay and nothing.

E

Even developing it moving forward with this part of it, they can't do actual build until they have.

E

Water and sewer correct, so if it's five years ten years, they just simply have the zoning in place.

Q

By the way we we're led to believe it two, you know two-ish, two to three years: they're they're.

Q

Going to solve the problem now, that's a, but it's a town's problem right, not the county.

A

um My question would be: is the piece that's already annexed into town I see on here is already.

A

R10 000 part of it and c2 the piece to the north that touches the property.

A

Is that already figured in their numbers for.

A

Their sewer and water- yes, and that's currently, that's not built out now correct, yeah yeah. I mean.

R

That was, but it's still a long range and again the long range is a planning tool. They realize.

R

We don't have the capacity, but we sooner or later this nation get annexed here is a planning tool, so.

R

These properties, coming in and like most places, is first first served so.

R

If, for some reason, all of a sudden, the town looks at it and they bring everybody in.

R

They realize okay, we have recouped and when it comes to the I and I they're not gaining.

R

Capacity just to be clear, we could be capacity, their capacity is set at 1.1 million gallons.

R

So they're not all of a sudden getting oh, we have 300 thousand gallons more capacity.

R

You're actually recruiting you're not treating groundwater anymore, so you're not gaining capacity.

R

So this is, if it's the same, that's the exact same effect for any any project right either.

Q

You've got sewer capacity or you don't. I mean I just want to make sure make that clear. What.

R

I'm getting at is increasing capacity, which is incorrect. Okay, in other words, they're, not redoing.

Q

Their wastewater treatment plant in order to get a permit to allow them to put more water through it.

M

Rather, they're fixing leaks that allow them to put more water through it in it.

Q

With its existing capacity right and everything in existing and priority.

D

Is already accounted for in those numbers, the long range is not accounted for, so those numbers aren't.

D

Accounted for in the current plants capacity, so a capacity enhancing project would need to occur.

D

To bring those into the system by the town, that's a town issue and then with the water.

R

Aspect yes recharge, they have a well that could definitely one unlikely handle this.

R

Project and other projects coming in, however, they're gonna have to recharge right now to.

Q

There's a fairly proficient well on this property right now on the sewell property.

Q

Okay and by the by just water and sewer plans, people, don't you know they're plans and they are.

Q

They're designed to regulate the system, obviously the system, water sewer systems they like users.

Q

You got capacity, you got to pay for the fixed cost for it, you want people to use it. So it's.

Q

A guessing game when you this is one that's ready to go okay. This is something that looks.

Q

Like there's, there's a developer, there's engineers collector road. This is one where, if it works out.

Q

They will start paying those thirty or forty thousand dollar area connection fees.

Q

Which the system likes as opposed to well wait a minute joe down the street, has a farm he's got an.

Q

Existing capacity but he's not going to develop, so I think we have that again time constraint.

B

I mean I'm, I'm cutting you off. I apologize yeah, I'm good um any other questions, uh not a question.

L

But the comments it just seems to me that we got a couple of horses ahead of the cart here.

L

To your initial conversation, jeff that you know we have 13 agencies.

L

That haven't weighed in um we have, you know as part of the tawny town, water.

L

Or the recommendations for in the master plan for water and sewer, uh there's a looks like.

L

Maybe 15 recommendations that tony town initiate or reviewed and begin to take.

L

Take some action, a 12 leak in the system. I don't know if that's high low medium but seems pretty.

L

From where I come from, that seems pretty high uh 12 loss, um so I you know. I just think that.

L

I understand it's a it's a tawny town municipal issue but, and I the road doesn't bother me too.

L

Much the enclave or not not, non-enclave doesn't bother me too much. It's the water and sewer that.

L

uh I'm hungry and I'll I'll say I mean to borrow your phrase. I pretty much agree with this.

F

You know I mean I really I mean, particularly if, if tawny town is initiating sort of.

F

You know the process, I mean this all makes sense. It's a designated growth area. I think this.

F

Is some one of those things that should happen? I I just feel, like you know we're hearing.

F

You know when you're building a house and you go out there and the the architect says one thing and.

F

The engineer says something else: you kind of want them to be on the same page. You know mr schaefer.

F

You're a great advocate, you know, you really have you. You indeed should be paying you more.

F

At the same time, when you know when we hear it's a it's an enclave, no it's not it sort of is.

F

Well, it looks like an enclave, I mean you know, with the exception of the of the flipping road.

F

It's an enclave I mean and again I don't have I'm not averse to doing that, but I think there.

F

Ought to be a conversation with the city where the city basically says yeah, we want to work towards.

F

That too- and we know we all know what the end result is going to be- and it's not going to be.

F

A patchwork at the end of the day, we're working towards this, and we all are of a like mind.

F

I just feel like you know, um I I'm sorry, I've got to go. We either need to call a motion.

F

Or or table to punt this, for you know another meeting and I apologize because I'm the one.

F

Turning into a pumpkin, um what do we want to do? Because mr schaefer's talked to talk to himself.

F

He's done everything he can do to move this, and I and again I'm not a verse. I just I just.

F

Want to make sure you know when we're hearing something from county staff, I want to make sure.

F

I want to make sure we're all on the same page, and I just don't feel like I am: does that make sense.

E

It does make sense, so you weren't here for the master plan.

G

And all that, but um I guess I view it as this is for the future- a continuation.

E

And this is, um you know, the city is quote, unquote, possibly recommending it, um but.

E

Nothing can happen until you know it's just like when we said until we got do our ten thousand one.

E

Until you get the adequate facilities, nothing can happen, but you have to set it forward for.

E

The future right, so that's how a lot you feel it so you're playing. So your sense is that.

B

You would vote to recommend this with a positive recommendation to the county commissioners. Yes, all.

B

The other things still have to happen. Absolutely we're not an impediment you're, recognizing tawny.

B

Town is planning ahead, um that's sort of your view. I think yes, yeah. Okay, that's one person.

A

I want to hear mr witches okay. Well, listen! I'm gonna be for the record. I've met with all the.

G

Parties I've met with the city of tawnytown. uh I've met with some dude named clark, shaffer.

G

But I hesitate to say anything here because I want to hear what you all have to say because.

G

Obviously, there's a reason that I'm ex officio- because it goes from here to us on thursday.

G

So I'd rather hear your recommendation now uh with that being said, I.

G

I I want to be very careful here uh in meeting with all the parties I haven't heard anything.

G

Negative. Yet because this is a long-range plan and I'll leave it at that in the interest of.

G

Being fair I'll leave it at that, so I'll just say where I've come from and certainly listen.

P

To everything you all have said and like so many times, we have competing interests that we're.

B

Trying to balance out here um and sort of where I come down just one voice, but um I was my concern.

B

About it being premature, I'm not sure there's a silver bullet there, because time still has to.

B

Go time starts to pass before anything's going to happen. The question is, are we going to be.

B

Blocking it right now, we're recommending that it be blocked, we're not going to stop time so.

B

You know, is it consistent with a master plan. um Honestly, I appreciate your input, mr schaefer.

B

You helped me work past that the enclave I don't like the way it looks. It looks like an enclave.

B

To me, even though, technically it's probably not, maybe with time that issue goes away because they.

B

Have conversations- and maybe that gets fixed so for me I guess I come down on the side of.

B

I'm probably not comfortable blocking this right now or at least recommending that we block it a.

B

Lot of things still have to happen, they still have to be done correctly. So I guess my view is. I would.

B

I would be in favor of sending it to the county commissioners with a positive recommendation.

B

Understanding all these things still have to happen, and some of these things may correct and.

B

They're going to have water in some sewer capacity or they're, not in the future, but let the town.

B

Do its long-range planning if it comes to pass, that's a good thing. If it doesn't that's it's life.

B

So that's right. I agree with that yeah. So can we just say that you make a recommendation based on.

E

What you said, I think they gave us a proposed motion. Can we pretty much make a recommendation.

B

It's on page six of this report and if you just change it to be positive recommendation, I think.

B

That can be the record um I'll read it into the record I'll make them it'd be one of you.

B

But make a notion that the carroll county planning is only commissioned forward. The comments outlined.

B

um uh And in this report uh and the zoning waiver requested the board of county commissioners with.

M

A favorable recommendation for the reasons stated in the record. Okay, uh I will make that.

E

So you'll notice, yes, I will okay and I'm going to do um a roll call. If that's okay,.

D

Sure we need a second second okay. We have a motion in a second to adopt that as the motion.

G

um And and for the record uh obviously I'll be in attendance on thursday, and I will make sure.

G

That all of your discussion, comments, remarks etc are included in our discussion. Okay, thank you.

B

uh So you'll be abstaining today, I'll take it just that's correct, okay, so uh yeah. So we should.

B

Have a roll call vote because we have emotions? Mr hall? Yes, ms kirkner, yes, mr lester, yes, mr kane, yes.

D

Please let the record reflect that four in favor and the motion carries.

D

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you all very much we're pretty much finished yeah. I think you can be.

B

Thank you all very much. We appreciate your time.

B

E

B

The concurrency management presentation, which was.

B

We'll go back to the original numbering, it's item 11.

H

Okay, still morning still morning,.

H

Okay, thank you laura's highest.

H

Bureau of development review- this was pretty much the concurrency report.

H

So yeah I I've done extensions sitting up here. I've done plenty of planning commission reports.

H

To you and this one's kind of new for me so, and it might be new to some of you as well.

H

Actually, it's been, it's been a couple years here since we delivered the report so.

H

um This is our concurrency management for fiscal year 21., and uh the timing on delivery is perhaps.

H

A little delayed we're usually here a little bit earlier. Maybe around january.

H

February but happy coincidence that a lot of this, what I'm going to talk about also ties.

H

Into next month, you will have bill kane here in front of you um delivering the school.

H

For carroll county public schools, the student enrollment data and projections so process wise.

H

I I literally delivered you reports today on your desk, and that was part of the bigger process today,.

H

I'm going to give you an overview of how this looks for 2021, so a summary, some recommendations.

H

Give you a month's time to take a look at the content in the report um and then next month.

H

When mr cain is here, my aim is to come back before you tie together with that and to look for your.

H

uh Approval to forward to the board of county commissioners, the concurrency manager report so.

H

Make sense process wise it does yes. Thank you excellent appreciate the overview yeah and.

H

So here today, as I said in accordance with chapter 156, so this is our adequate public.

H

Facilities and concurrency management is the title of this chapter. I feel like everybody today so far.

H

Has set the stage for me, um david b craft gave a wonderful concurrency was part of his report.

H

Of that preliminary plan, because that was a major subdivision subject to concurrency so.

H

He did a very in-depth uh presentation of that perfect and then we were just talking.

H

About water sewer capacities and whose systems, and so that all of course ties into concurrency.

H

So the purpose of this chapter is to ensure that residential growth in the county.

H

Will not unduly strain public facilities so again, this is county county code, municipalities.

H

Are not within they're not subject to our code, so the municipalities are they independently define.

H

Their levels of adequacy, which again you heard a little bit about from price already, so that is not.

H

Covered in our chapter right, well, what it does include our major subdivisions.

H

Site plans for residential development, so we've seen some of this recently where we have like.

H

An age-restricted development we just approved one recently along with 26 subject: concurrency.

H

Because it was a residential development, but a site plan and mobile home parks are also included.

H

Covered in this chapter, so what are exempt are off commences, minor subdivisions, three lots or less.

H

Commercial, industrial and municipalities, as I already said, so gives you kind of just an.

H

Overview for those who are a little newer to the commission and haven't seen as many.

H

Concurrency reports um good reminder for the rest of us too sure for us all the time. So you.

H

Will see numbers in the report of how many off convinces were approved this fiscal year, but.

H

Again not subject to concurrency, so what I'm going to do is go through a summary so highlighting and.

H

You can pull this in the report, so summary is on pages four and five of your paper. Packets.

H

And recommendations are on page five, as well as twenty six and twenty seven.

H

So again, I'm going to give kind of an overview of where we are in the county, with residential.

H

Development put that into context using some of the previous back date. Fiscal year period.

H

And then offer some recommendations moving forward. Okay,.

H

So development activity again this puts it into context for going back six fiscal years, so 16.

H

Through 21 right- and we see lots approved by the planning commission so through the process, you'll.

H

See that major subdivision right, like today, you saw david's project and the preliminary plan for.

H

That was approved, so that tallies into the lots that you're approving. Then the plan moves into.

H

That final stage, as you know, you may or may not see it back which your question today. So if it.

H

Is fully adequate, you won't see it back at final unless you request a comeback, so the.

H

Approval authority goes to the chair unless everybody wants to see it again. If there is.

H

An approaching inadequate right, like we saw today with gamber, we do a conditional appraisal and then.

H

We bring it forward to you again once we re assess it for concurrency, so so here we have preliminary.

H

And final plans that were the lots, the number of lots approved by the planning commission so.

H

And then we go to lots recorded right and so recorded. Is your next step and as you also heard.

H

Today we had three extensions today. Those were plans that were approved now one was a minor, but.

H

Two were majors right, so those lots factored in right. They were approved, but they received.

H

Extensions right, so the number of lots that are recorded doesn't always line up exactly right with.

H

What's approved because the timing doesn't always go together, so I'm going to go forward, one more.

H

So that's recorded, so we recorded.

H

Greater number right there, I'm sorry, so we recorded 282 lots.

H

In fiscal year, 20. 230 of those were in municipalities again so they're not.

H

Subject to our concurrency, we do factor in the numbers, but they have their own um assessment.

H

Right as to adequacy, so in it of those numbers, the 230, interestingly enough, those were only in.

H

Two municipalities, tawny, town and westminster, so that's where we were seeing those this past year.

H

So totals again I'm on page four and five.

H

The planning commission that breaks down to the planning commission approved 13 subdivisions.

H

And 22 lots as we see that number there that 22., so that 22 was in 13 different subdivisions.

H

12 of those lots were subject to concurrency.

H

Then we moved to permits issued.

H

So permits issued is not to exceed 6 000 in a six year period, so we are. We we.

H

Are well below that right at this point in time, back in, like late 90s concurrency was adopted.

H

In 1998. so way back, we were seeing big numbers today, this fiscal year 16 to 21 we're at 2:55:15.040,1193:02:47.295 hundred and 2181.

H

One residential units were issued a permit okay, so we're well below the six thousand.

H

So then we move to well. Where is that growth occurring, which then leads us to, as we assess.

H

The facilities, so we have schools, roads, water and sewer, police, fire and ems.

H

Okay, so that growth, then of course, where it's focused, is going to impact some of our facilities.

H

So I want to highlight those areas that are challenged right now and why and that leads us to.

H

Next month, with mr kane as well and david touched on, the um fire uh gambler was one of those, so.

H

Of all those that I just listed, the facilities that we test, the ones that are perfectly adequate.

H

Right now and you'll see in the back of this under recommendations. There are.

H

No recommendations regarding so roads, water and sewer, police and ems are all adequate.

H

Okay, the challenges right now so schools and schools, particularly in the southern.

H

Area of the county in the freedom area, where we're seeing a lot of growth, so we do have a.

H

Couple of approaching inadequacies for the upcoming years so now we're looking.

H

Out at projected projected enrollments, okay, so projected data from carroll, county public schools.

H

Goes out, we went out to 2027. okay, so we have carrolltown sandymount and westminster elementary.

H

Are all projected to be approaching inadequate at some point between 24 and 27., so a little.

H

Further out still, freedom elementary school so was anticip anticipated to be approaching inadequate.

H

In fiscal year, 21, okay and projected to become inadequate in 22-27, so we're now actually in.

H

22, so that was a projection. Okay, so bill is going to come to you with actual data. Hopefully.

H

For the current fiscal year so that the actual data for 2021, it's my understanding that that's.

H

Not yet available, so it's it's anticipated that freedom was approaching inadequate.

H

For 2021 truly- and that is inadequate- we're gonna go with for 22 moving forward. So with that.

H

As you probably know as well, the schools put together a redistricting committee to look.

H

At modifying those district lines that actually started in motion prior to 2020.

H

Then early 2020 covid comes along and throws a wrench kind of.

H

So the schools are, they they ship, they shift. Absolutely. They put all their focus into.

H

Handling all the modifications that came along with.

H

The pandemic in regards to the schools, so the redistricting committee was put on hold.

H

We started up again in january this year, linda, and I are both part of that work group. We go.

H

To those meetings attend those meetings and they have been occurring every two weeks.

H

Since january three years and pretty intensive two to three hours right, so their goal is to.

H

Come to the board of education, with multiple options for the board to work through and.

H

To select which option they would like to go through so so that that's in process right now.

H

Their timeline goal, as it was presented to us, is to go before the board of education in the.

H

Fall of this year, 2022 and hopefully to enact that redistricting for the 2023-2024 school year, okay,.

H

So the recommendation, as I have included on page five in this, our recommendation.

H

Is that the existing inadequacy being addressed by the redistricting be recognized.

H

As mitigation acceptable to the county, once the board of education approves the committee's.

H

Proposed redistricting plan, so once the board says yes, then there has to be the actual.

H

Enactment of that redistricting right, but we felt as a bureau as a department that once that.

H

The board of education says yes to something: we could accept that as mitigation. So then.

H

Plants could move forward through their final approval process makes sense. It does yes, okay,.

H

So elementary schools middle schools, we did. We do have a couple approaching inadequacies for.

H

22 through 27 oklahoma, road, middle and sykesville middle, so again we're down in the southern area.

H

Of the county um and high schools, good news, they're all rated adequate.

H

Okay, so the other area that I just want to highlight some.

H

Fire so fire stations we had, we have nine right now we are. The good news. Is we're getting data.

H

uh On fire and emergency services, we did have a period of time, which some of you may remember.

H

Where we weren't getting the data that was back in 2018 2019 and they have since in 2020, they gave us.

H

All the back information as well as moving forward so we're getting that information, which is great.

H

um But we do have nine approaching inadequates, so david spoke of gamber earlier, um and this is as.

H

Defined by the average response time measure so time, hampstead, tawny, town, pleasant valley,.

H

Lineborough reese new windsor, harney, gamber and winfield, so they're all in an approaching category.

H

Again that may work itself out by the time a plan comes before he has a final.

H

We do previously, the cc visa had was having discussions as to their threshold standards right.

H

To pulling in consideration of automatic sprinkler systems, personnel etc, so.

H

We're hopeful that that conversation will continue, and now that we do have our new director of fire.

H

And emergency services we're hopeful that that conversation will still I'm sure they have.

H

Probably many things to talk about at this point, but hopefully that conversation will continue.

H

Maybe the special standards are modified. You would think there'd be a groundswell of support.

B

For our volunteer fire departments by developers, because there's a probably a little recognized.

B

Connection between the ability to develop and these response times, meaning the resources of.

B

Our volunteer fire departments- I mean I wouldn't know about that connection. Unless I had gotten.

B

Educated by right by serving here so I know, commissioner, france is very active in those sorts.

B

Of things he knows that connection very well, but a lot of us out there might not get that connection.

B

So maybe there's an opportunity to educate some of the folks that are right. You know developing.

G

Coming before us from time to time, but I think to to that end, uh the very fact that we're making the.

G

Decisions that we are about, the future of fire and ems is really raising a lot of eyebrows. Now.

G

Because we spent a lot of time in the budgetary process- and you will hear more more about that.

G

During that presentation, but you know the very fact that we are seeing some proposed.

G

Inadequacies and we are infusing some some uh career- help in those volunteer stations we'll.

G

Certainly pique the interest of those developers or whoever, as we move forward here, yeah very good.

B

Anyway, just as an aside, but that connection, I was surprised by the connection. I guess yes.

H

And the other thing, as you also heard david speak about, it- are.

H

Bridges right, so how do you get from point a the station to point b, where you're spawning.

H

So we do have four bridges that are currently in the cip um that are currently inadequate for.

H

Certain fire and emergency response efforts that we are putting funding towards to repair those.

H

So then, we'll simply I'm going to jump to page 2627 at the back.

H

Which are the overall recommendations right so truly the it breaks it down into recommended.

H

Capital improvements um to note in there, as I just said, we have the bridges and they're.

H

Called out in here as to which versions on which roads right, mckinstry mill, road hawks.

H

Hill road, babylon, road and old case mill road are where the bridges are that are in that cip plan.

H

For schools, I did, I know, capital improvements are recommended.

H

But that redistricting to mitigate the inadequacy is being pursued so.

H

Building permit caps again, so the in regards to schools again that they are they they create their.

H

Their their districts and the redistricting committee again, I.

H

Reiterated when they are seeking that approval and implementation, so we have a timeline.

H

That we have in our minds as we move forward.

D

We have our educational facilities master plan that mr kane will.

D

Go over next month, in addition to that, we did ask him for an update on the committee as well, so he.

D

Can give you more detailed information about their process what's happening with with the.

D

Southern area, district and committee itself, so just to add to that that's great! Yes, thank you.

H

So changes to boundaries, uh no changes are recommended. We we do have under fire and.

H

Ems, of course, that the review of uh just to note the review of development proposals is.

H

The first to district to staff, as established by private emergency medical stations um and.

H

Then, under schools, under that about boundaries, we use the enrollment districts for each school.

H

To evaluate so when those shift that will change if and when anticipating they will shift.

H

And then threshold standards, the only no no changes are recommended. However, cc visa.

H

Should continue their discussion on recognizing the presence of automatic sprinklers utilization.

H

Of staffing paid personnel and response time measurements so and every and then we have.

H

Changes in concurrency analysis, no changes are recommended and proposed amendments to chapter 156.

H

No changes are recommended, so that's an overview of where, where we are in terms of.

H

Residential growth and then the facilities that are covered in chapter 156 again, if.

H

Those are the highlights, that's the summary. Those are the recommendations.

H

I'll give you you know the next month to take a look at it. Actually in the report, which is.

H

Very helpful is an overview, a little history of concurrency as well as it then goes into.

H

How, let's say schools right what it means to be approaching an adequate or inadequate what those.

H

Numbers are water, sewer capacity is what those numbers are and how they're evaluated. So that's.

H

Just a little deeper that's reading for you, I didn't want to read all that too no.

B

Yeah good any questions for laura, but not we'll be reading. It obviously.

B

Very helpful, thank you really appreciate you putting this together.

D

When we come back um in may, they'd have to approve this report correct. So right you have some draft.

B

Language at the end, that's all! Yes, you have some draft language for us. I do it's at the very end.

D

So we'll insert a date um to that rate on x date, the carroll county planning and zoning commission.

H

Voted to forward the concurrency manager report to the board of county commissioners with a favorable.

H

Recommendation for adoption and including school data and student population projections from mr.

H

Kane, okay, so this will be then on our may. It's nice meeting agenda for you all: okay, okay, sound.

H

Good all good, so that's the standard third tuesday meeting is when mr kane is coming by.

B

Very good bart, thank you. Thank you very much.

B

um So with that, we will move to our last item and mr wagner that has your name all over it.

B

And that is agriculture on zoning text, agricultural.

B

And conservation, zoning text and it's a discussion.

D

So, um as we came to earlier in the month, we gave you the introduction to the agriculture.

D

Conservation work group. What they went over um in front of you here today is chris wagner.

D

And then tiffany, fawcett and hannah weber, who put together the first part that we're going.

D

To start with is our discussion on accessory dwelling units. We have been here a very long.

D

Time today, so my suggestion- let's get for our presentation and for the next meeting on our.

D

Next wednesday evening meeting we can follow up with a discussion after we've heard this today,.

D

I think that would be beneficial for everyone. Also landon resource management also prepared a.

D

Letter which was given to you this morning as well about the thoughts and considerations on accessory.

D

Dwelling units, so with that I'm going to have hannah and tiffany present to you the information.

D

On adus, this was a topic of great discussion during our agricultural conservation work groups.

D

Not so much the concept of accessory dwelling units which are allowed in most districts but.

D

They'd attack but making them potentially detached um in our county code. So with that.

D

I'm going to have hannah and tiffany present to you before you start. You had mentioned a letter.

B

If, if I got it, I misplaced it, it should be. It looks like a memo. Oh the memorandum, yeah.

M

That's it: okay, good! Just I'm sorry get right ahead! Okay, um so as linda.

P

Introduced this is a part of the ag conservation zoning text, specifically for the adus.

P

So getting started, what is an adu? An accessory dwelling unit is a small residence that shares a.

P

Single family lot, with the larger primary dwelling you commonly hear them referred to as granny flats.

P

Guest houses or in-law suites adus can be both attached or separated from the principal dwelling.

P

And some benefits of having adus are: they provide practical housing options for elderly, disabled.

P

Empty nesters and young adults and below are just some examples of some adu layouts that you can see.

P

So in the current code we have attached accessory dwellings and detached accessory dwellings, defined.

P

Attached accessory dwellings are defined as a portion of a single-family dwelling that shall.

P

Provide complete independent living facilities for sleeping eating, cooking and sanitation within the.

P

Main dwelling unit, but which is separate from the main dwelling units cooking, bathroom and living.

P

Areas going to the detached accessory dwelling definition, a dwelling unit, excluding a mobile home.

P

On the same lot as the primary dwelling unit, but is physically separated from the primary dwelling.

P

Unit a detached accessory dwelling unit shall provide complete independent living facilities for.

P

One or more persons, including permanent facilities for living, sleeping eating, cooking and sanitation.

P

So going further into the code, we have some similarities in how our code regulates the.

P

Attached and detached adus, so both types of adus must have direct access from the outside.

P

The property owner must occupy one of the two units, whether they stay in the.

P

Main dwelling or the accessory two additional off-street parking spaces are required.

P

For the accessory unit and the water and sewer infrastructure regulations are the same.

P

For both attached and detached adus and we obtain that information from the department of health.

P

On the other end, there are differences in how our code regulates the adus for attached adus. There is.

P

A size limitation of 800 square feet or one-third the floor area of the principal dwelling attached.

P

Adus can have no more than two bedrooms and they are allowed in the ag and conservation districts.

P

So, though, we have detached accessory dwelling units defined in our code.

P

It is very misleading in how they are regulated in the code.

P

Detached accessory dwelling units are not truly accessory or subordinate to the principal dwelling.

P

Because they are actually a secondary dwelling on the lot. We say this because a detached accessory.

P

Dwelling unit can only be constructed if the lot is eligible to be subdivided taking that.

P

A step further, there is no size limit on the secondary dwelling construction size.

P

So before we get more into that, as linda said, this was a very intense.

P

Conversation during the work group, so looking at attached adus again, the work group recommended to.

P

Remove the one-third size stipulation, leaving the 800 maximum size limit for the accessory dwelling.

P

And then they also are recommending to require that attach. Adus can be no more than 15 feet.

P

Away from the principal dwelling- and they must be connected by a livable space, which means that the.

P

Connected space must be heated and there was no consensus reached for a detached adus. Looking into.

P

The conversations and discussion points with the work group: these were the main discussion topics.

P

So will detached adus increase density. It is our view that these detached adus will not.

P

Currently, in the code, we allow two family dwellings permitted by wright in the ag.

P

District, so limiting the size of an adu and the distance, the adu can be from the main dwelling.

P

Would keep the adu from becoming a separate additional dwelling and then moving on? What are.

P

The water and sewer implications um we talked to the department of health. As I said earlier,.

P

And they treat attached and detached adus the same way, the three acres would be the minimum necessary.

P

Acreage for a new septic system, whether that septic system serves the individual, adu or the.

P

Adu and the primary dwelling combined into one system. So if we could just expand upon that, just.

D

A little bit um so if, if they were built together, that the accessory dwelling attached or detached.

D

Was built at the same time as the primary they could go on to the same septic system. If, because.

D

It would be assigned appropriately if it came after the primary dwelling. They would need a new.

D

System or else they'd have to replace the original system to be able to handle the expanded usage.

R

So in essence, yes, in essence, what would be happening, so the primary dwelling would be a.

R

Ten thousand square foot sewage disposal area, so that has your primary and then your area for two.

R

Reserves the health department looks at whether it's attached or detached exactly the same way.

R

So you'll need another 10, 000 square foot area for a primary with backup and reserve.

R

So if you, if the houses are, if let's say they're done together or a person, has their systems.

R

Currently needs to be replaced and they want to do a a dwelling unit, whether it's attached in.

R

This case or detached whichever way, then they could potentially look at it and say: okay I'll.

R

Put in a twenty thousand square foot area which will handle both the primary and my my dwell, my.

R

Accessory drilling unit, three acres is about as small we're talking about the health department.

R

Is as small as they would recommend that can, including everything else, that's needed. The.

R

Driveways the stormwater management that could handle potentially a 20, 000 square foot, total.

R

Area plus everything else needs to be in there. So three acres is pretty.

R

Much the mineral lot size that a detached or attached accessory dwelling unit could go on.

P

So the last big discussion topic we had with the work group was what would happen when the property.

P

Is sold and we would say that all the regulations would remain in place, including the inability to.

P

Subdivide so, as we said in the beginning, we are here before you to obtain guidance on how.

P

You would like us to proceed with our concept team, so we have outlined kind of two paths that.

P

We can take, we have. The first is to keep the code as written and change the name.

P

From a detached accessory dwelling unit to a secondary dwelling unit because, as we discussed.

P

We don't really, we don't have a detached accessory dwelling unit because it's not subordinate to.

P

The principal dwelling, the second option we've laid out, is to create a true detached accessory.

P

Dwelling unit, which is allowable on lots that are not subdividable and with certain restrictions and.

P

We just came up with some possible restrictions that could be placed on a detached adu, so we.

P

Have a 800 square foot maximum size limit, which is also what applies to attached adus.

P

We have the three acre minimum lot size as price explained for water and sewer.

P

Maximum of 40 to 50 feet away from the principal dwelling. No more than two bedrooms, which is the.

P

Standard for the attached adu as well, and to continue the regulation that one of the.

P

Dwellings must be occupied by the property owner, which is what's in the code right now,.

P

So well, that's that's very helpful and we certainly appreciate the robust discussions and.

B

You know looking at this from every angle because there's a lot to it, we've.

B

Seen it obviously in some of the other, like in residential, I think where we had these attached.

B

Dwelling unit issues come up, so given the time, I think I like your suggestion, um that we can have a.

B

Discussion about this um at our next meeting, maybe um because there's a lot to a lot to think about.

B

But this is a very helpful framework, so I really do appreciate the good work that you all have done.

B

In bringing this so we have someone here, so maybe what we can do prior to the next meeting is send.

D

You this presentation, as well as um a frequently asked questions sheet, um that they have developed.

C

So we can send you all of that for the discussion uh as well as you have information from the.

D

Resource management, the member that they provided as well. That sounds really good, yeah, so good.

B

Excellent, yes, yeah. We appreciate that thanks again,.

B

All right, then, I think that concludes this presentation right. Yes, it does okay, well.

D

Then the last item is a general public comment. Does anybody have any general public comment.

B

All right hearing none, then I would be happy to entertain a motion for german. I.

E

Make a motion that would be adjourned. Is there a second out there somewhere a second favorite.

B

Thank you all very much. We are adjourned.

B