Carroll County, MD Carroll County Planning and Zoning Commission, 7 Jul 2021

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From YouTube: Planning and Zoning Commission Work Session July 7, 2021

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https://www.carrollcountymd.gov/government/boards-commissions/planning-zoning-commission/

A

Thank you good evening. Everybody I'm going to call to order our july 7th 2021 meeting.

A

Of the carroll county planning and zoning commission, can we please establish a quorum.

B

Hi hi here, mr canelli here, mr wilders.

B

Miss kirkner here, mr lester.

B

Here, mr bell, snow, commissioner whale.

B

Secretary eisenberg here, ms chair, please let the record reflect that four members.

B

Are present and we do have a quorum. Thank you. Let's all rise for the pledge of allegiance.

A

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to.

A

The republic for which it stands, one nation, under god, indivisible with liberty and justice for all.

A

Okay, we're on now to the review and approval of agenda. I take it. We have some edits to our agenda.

C

um My agenda does not say edits, but I believe eblar. Can you just tell me what.

C

The edits were, I must have an updated version. No, I was just saying based on upon us, leaving.

A

At seven you said you would be advised the agenda's still fine, so we are now.

C

The agenda's- fine, so nope, okay, all right can I get a motion to approve.

D

I move to approve the agenda a second all in favor aye.

A

Moving on to our administrative report, secretary eisenberg.

C

Hi, just one quick housekeeping issue and obviously we're going to continue to do this. I think.

C

um Laura will send out prior to meeting so again. Thank you all for being here. Let me start with.

C

That what we're going to do prior to each meeting is ask everyone just to confirm the day before.

C

Their attendance there's been some miscommunications, and so I just want to make sure.

C

That we know who will be at that meeting um so we're not trying to hound you if we keep reaching.

C

Out but especially until we have a full planning commission again um and hopefully we will have a.

C

New member start in july, um from here on out, the practice will be to email. You like 24 hours, ahead.

C

Of time, just as a reminder and to let us know yes or no typically, we say lester if you're not going.

C

To be there, but we're going to want to yes or no. If you can't be there um and if there's a time.

C

Things drained just let us know that as well we're trying to do our best too, to have time.

C

With each item that's coming before you, so we know how to plan it out um as we move continuing with.

C

These virtual uh meetings uh on wednesday, I think, a hard stop for the most part at 8 pm listeners.

C

Really something we're struggling with. I really want to keep these to two hours or less. I think.

C

It's just better for everyone, um the viewing audience doesn't have that ability, and it's.

C

Hard for people to be charged with your evenings a lot when you're giving up like basically a.

C

Whole half a day once a month as well- um and these are just our work sessions where we're.

C

Just trying to have discussions- and it's a little more informal anyway, so I think we can definitely.

C

Adhere to more of a flexible time frame, um it's a little bit harder for our business meetings.

C

Because we do a business, that's the whole point of that meeting is to get the business of the.

C

Day done so, carroll county can keep moving forward with the various projects that need to come before.

C

You, the planning commission, um so that's all I have to share with you regarding that.

C

Thank you, okay. Thank you, yeah. I agree. Eight o'clock.

A

Not much gets accomplished after eight o'clock.

A

So with that, we'll move on to item number six, our freedom, sanitary suits sewer survey, the briefing I.

A

Take it of the results? Hopefully yes, so um I do so. As you recall, we did a.

C

Specific to the freedom area, a sanitary sewer survey and the purpose of this survey was to see.

C

um Who, in the freedom community that is not currently on the county, sewer service? That has.

C

A small lot, meaning two acres or less built prior to 1990, um and that is within the sewer envelope.

C

Meaning that there is ability to connect in the future um would be interested if it ever became.

C

Available to connect to the system, so we picked the group prior to sending them the mail, and I.

C

Will share the math with you of the area that we selected and I have a little presentation to.

C

Go through about the results um to see who would be interested and also if there were any problems.

C

That we weren't aware of um just to start that ball rolling the next step after sanitary sewer.

C

Survey, I'm sorry after the freedom, sanitary survey. If we wanted to move to that next level,.

C

Would then be doing a more in-depth study working with the health department and a private.

C

Consultant to do um a more in-depth sanitary sewer briefing where they actually go door to door.

C

um They actually check systems to see if there seems to be any signs of failures. Things like that.

C

um I will tell you this was not spurred on by any health department issues. It was not spurred out.

C

By complaints of people that have failing systems, um this was something that was initiated by staff.

C

But at the behest of the freedom district community association fdca. So that's how this.

C

Project moved forward so control. If I could just share my screen and I'll just run through. What's.

C

Already currently, on our website, um the survey ran from may 1 to june 1.. We compiled the results and.

C

They they are posted now, so we will be giving the board of county commissioners a briefing.

C

Next thursday, at their open session on july 15th and at that point in time, if they feel that they.

C

Want to move forward, we'll discuss it at that time, so control room. If I could share my screen, please.

C

Control room, I don't know if you can hear me, can I share my screen. Please.

C

Okay, so this is currently on our website, and this can be found under our.

C

Water and sewer planning portion of our website under the freedom interest survey, and we just.

C

Have a link here that says: click here to scroll through the survey analysis, and so here is the.

C

Survey analysis: can you all see that I'm going to make it big for you all all right.

C

So we had sent out approximately 860 surveys to targeted houses.

C

Within the freedom area, um from our uh month of having this open and don't.

C

Pay attention to the date. The date is misleading. It's a free generation by.

C

um Surveymonkey, that's when I originally did the original stuff. That's when I created the survey.

C

Was april 12th, so that's what that is not when the results came in or this presentation was created.

C

That's surveymonkey, so we had 377 total responses come in out of the 860 or so that were sent down.

C

And you can see this map here, the stars and I purposely kind of um made it a little hard to.

C

See exact location so that wanted to this was not meant to be a public document, so you can.

C

See what someone on one main street, what their responses were? This is really just to give you.

C

An idea of who responded and where they are so it's going to be a series of questions with some.

C

Apps um of the supporting data, so it purposely obscured things, so you couldn't pinpoint exact.

C

Locations but, as you can see, pretty decent distribution from all of the various areas that.

C

Were selected within the freedom community, so all of the the dots it's a fairly even distribution.

C

Not one particular area of the survey response area outweighed another area.

C

So the first question that we asked was part of the survey. Is this your primary residence.

C

um And the reason we did, that was because our experience and.

C

Prior um sanitary sewer surveys that we have done um a lot of times, there were a lot of renters.

C

And that has been challenging to to move forward with anything more in depth when.

C

We did this in vinksburg several years ago, runners actually tended to be more hesitant.

C

In completing surveys and more hesitant in having the health department or other officials.

C

Even come to the site and and open the door to even speak to anyone, because they were afraid they.

C

Were getting their landlord in trouble that seemed to be really resenting. So that's another reason so.

C

If we move to this next step, we know that we're working um with owners uh to make sure that that.

C

That's the demographic that we're dealing with so the answer. Did you have a question yeah? I was.

A

Just asking on the previous slide the outlined area: that's our designated growth area, correct.

A

Not the price or is that the priority funding area that is our entire designated growth area? Okay, yep.

C

And again kind of picking up on um is this your primary residence and do you rent your.

C

Property I mean you, they should correlate like this you'd expect if most of the people.

C

Are it's their primary residence? Then you would expect not a lot of rental so again.

C

That was to make sure that we knew if we go to the next level, that we will be dealing with.

C

Owners who actually can be decision makers if anything, moves forward with the property.

C

um It was also important to know because this would be part of a future survey again. How many.

C

People occupy the dwelling, and most of these tend to be. You know one to two person, households which.

C

Is over fifty percent of the respondents um very few, like thirty, a little more than thirty percent.

C

Were three to four and few like 10, were actually have four or more people occupying that and that's.

C

Good to know too, because you can kind of maybe see how heavily used their septic system is feeling.

C

One or two people on it: it's not as obvious the heavy usage as a four-person household between.

C

Showers, bathroom usage, laundry all the things that come with having a home and living in the home.

C

um This map just kind of illustrates the distribution of household.

C

Size and for the most part it's pretty evenly distributed where everyone is living. There's.

C

Not one area that particularly speaks out to having mostly larger families versus.

C

Smaller families, it's pretty well throughout the whole area homogeneous and the distribution.

C

Of one one to two three to four and greater than four occupant housing.

C

um Has the septic system been replaced, and that was important to know too, because if.

C

You've replaced your septic system. You may be less likely to want to.

C

Go on sewer because everything's working well and you don't need a new.

C

Sewer system- or you want to be hooked up, you don't need a new septic system. You're you're.

C

Working fine and push you just made a big investment um at some point in your ownership.

C

Of replacing that septic system, um so a little more than 20 percent have replaced them so.

C

Actually, that was kind of surprising, I would have thought more people would have um because they.

C

Are smaller lots, um but the majority more than 50 of the respondents have not replaced their system.

C

And again not one particular area really spoke out to having um replaced or not not replaced.

C

It's kind of again, if you can see that pretty evenly distributed um with where people are. I.

C

Mean I could have taken this one step further and done like a spatial analysis using like a grid.

C

Pattern- and you know, did some calculations, but it just seemed very evenly distributed. And if we want.

C

To move to that next level of analysis, we can do that. But again not one area really stood out.

C

um And then, when did you replace your system if someone replaced it more than 20 years ago, then.

C

They may be due again because septic systems do have a finite life expectancy. The majority of the.

C

Ones that were replaced- as you can see from this, that answer the question. So this is interesting.

C

This is one of the questions, because not everyone had a replacement, so out of.

C

This small percentage here of the yes out of the 30 uh less than 30 percent of those. That said, yes,.

C

Then this is that 30 that 272, so 105 people answered it. 272 people skipped it. So that's at 30.

C

So out of that 30 of those have systems over 20 years old, um but for the most part you know.

C

5 to 10 seems to be about where people are so. I would say that you know close.

C

To the other, half um replace them within the last five to ten years, which seems reasonable.

C

I mean have you had any septic problems, so um 30 of the people said yes,.

C

um And 70, obviously the people said no, they never had problems um so again. The.

C

Majority of the area has not had any really outstanding problems, and you would assume.

C

That 30, that said, yes, were also the ones that replaced them at some point in time.

C

I mean here's a distribution of the problems. I mean again.

C

You could say that maybe a little bit upwards lots are much smaller. These near eldersburg.

C

Elementary behind freedom, elementary tend to be more of the smaller lot sizes.

C

Closer to that half acre, they may be some of the ones that may have had more issues.

C

um In the past so but no area has been brought up to us by homeowners, saying look we're all having.

C

Issues and we can't replace our system or the health department coming at us saying. Look you.

C

Have a real problem in this area that we've been alerted to so again: no, no real systemic.

C

Issues have come up and not actually even no private issues of people calling us have come up.

C

um But I find this one very interesting so again, given everyone that we heard back from um the.

C

Majority of the people would be interested in connecting uh so 70 of that 375, so you would.

C

Say well over 200 people would be interested in connecting if it was available to them.

C

um And again you can see. The yes is so kind of on gather road seems to be where a lot of the yeses.

C

End up by freedom elementary seems to be where the majority of the yeses.

C

um Tend to be further down on gaither road toward the county line, tended to be a lot of no's.

C

And areas that seem to be a little more of the outliers um would not want to connect.

C

And they're actually on the edge of the envelope anyway. So um totally, you know that you know kind.

E

Of a little insightful um and then the most common reasons why people didn't want to connect and 117.

C

People out of that 372 wrote comments, um and this was a resounding theme. um These four came.

C

Up over and over again, there's nothing else that was kind of unique that came up that stuck out.

C

But um the cost to connect to the county, sewer system um and they're using it as a blanketed.

C

Term but we do charge area connection charges um and typically, if the county were to bring.

C

A sewer line, it's the main line you the homeowner, would be responsible getting from your home.

C

To that main and whatever that cost would be um somewhere between five and ten thousand I'd.

C

Imagine, depending on how long the run is um and then our area connection charges um the.

C

Cost of quarterly bills, so just getting that bill, um people didn't want to add to a monthly.

C

uh Bill that they have to pay a lot of the people um stated that they were either on the.

C

Fixed income because they were senior citizens or were lower income anyway, and that would be just an.

C

Additional burning additional cost they didn't have to take on or they they have a reliable.

C

Septic system, so they have never had issues or they've replaced their septic system. So they've.

C

Already put in that big expense that would be almost the equivalent of hooking into the.

C

County sewer, so they have a good system. They don't have to pay a quarterly bill. This would change the.

C

Dynamic if they had to do that, um so those are all the slides that I have for you. Are there.

C

Any questions and um I can stop sharing my screen unless there's a slide. You want me to go back to.

D

Linda, first of all, thank you for doing this. I appreciate it. I think this is this. Is you.

D

Know, information's good, um statistically what, in terms of the number of people in the freedom.

D

District that that potentially, would would have access to sewer. Do we consider 860 to be is.

D

That about the right number of the total people that, in the area that would be maybe have access.

C

You mean two that are in the sewer envelope that aren't.

C

Connected that want to hook up yes, that might want to look at the.

C

There might be some outliers, but for the most part sure, and and and do we consider it's forgive me.

D

From a statistics standpoint, I have no clue. I I don't remember.

D

Where do we have to get to where we can say with confidence as a planning.

D

Commission planning a zoning commission that we think we understand what the sentiment is. I mean.

D

377 out of 860 sounds pretty good to me. Is that do you? Do you think that this is a good sample.

C

I mean that's really I I can't say I'm not a statistician, so I can't.

C

I can't go by like a sample size. um You know, I can't tell you definitively, I think from.

C

What we send out the responses we got seems positive in favor. Okay, all right.

A

Thank you very interesting all right so we'll be taking this to the commissioners next week and.

C

They'll tell us how they want to move forward. So if we do move forward we'll let you know.

A

Good. Thank you great. Thank you.

A

Now we'll move on to item number seven, which is our discussion of the outstanding.

A

Issues for the residential text. Thank you. um Could I get the ability to share my screen.

F

F

Okay, can everybody see my screen.

F

Yes, harry doing a presentation from it makes the screen bigger sure. Thank you.

B

F

So, as mr woods said, we are here today to try to start wrapping up some of the outstanding issues.

F

As you'll recall, over the past five months, you have had, I believe, seven work sessions.

F

As well as in a public engagement session- and we have gone page by page through through the code.

F

um Several issues have been brought up by the um citizens and also other commenters, and some of.

F

These also, you have expressed a wish to revisit so, just very briefly, the issues that we've identified.

F

Are private kennels the storage containers used as sheds private schools that was brought up by.

F

Gerstel academy, age, restricted housing and there were a number of comments on both sides regarding.

F

Our proposal of age, restricted housing cluster subdivision has attracted a lot of comment and.

F

Attention as well as accessory dwelling units again on both sides of accessory dwelling units.

F

So today I think we're just going to try to get through. Probably the the first three are, the ones.

F

That are, we are ready to discuss today. The others may require more research and we are looking into.

F

Some of the comments that we've received so that we have a good response to them, so the first.

F

One is private kennels and just as a reminder, they're currently defined, as in conjunction with.

F

The residents, the keeping of personal pets, of more than three dogs, which have permanent canine teeth.

F

There's no upper limit included in the definition. Private kennels are permitted.

F

As an accessory used in any zoning district upon approval by the zoning administrator, followed by.

F

A public hear or following a public hearing, the staff proposal is to remove the regulation of.

F

Private kennels from the zoning code, since it is an animal control issue. This was one of the first.

F

Things we talked about in march on the planning commission, discussed the staff proposal and.

F

Expressed concerns about removing the regulation entire entirely, so I'm going to turn this over.

F

To jay to leave this discussion good evening, everybody, um let's say private kennels I mean.

G

Regulate the number of dogs on a property right now, you're allowed to have a maximum three.

G

One more you have to have approval for a private kennel, but what this really comes down to is.

G

This is an animal control issue. Why does zoning care? How many animals dogs, I should say on your.

G

Property, we don't worry about having how many cats or any other pets it's just dogs and, like I say,.

G

A lot of the issues that we have with the private kennels, which come down to.

G

Care or noise are things that are covered by the animal control, ordinance, which is enforced by the.

G

Humane society, um so there's really, as far as I can see, no reason for us to have give approval.

G

For someone to have four dogs, or as many as they they feel they can handle if it gets to a point.

G

Where the dogs are being treated badly or being kept in unsafe conditions, there's nothing. I can do.

G

About it, that would be an animal control issue and that's basically, what private kennels are there.

G

They're in animal control, how many animals should this person be taken care of are.

G

They being treated well, are they making too much noise? That's all covered in the animal.

G

Control ordinance, the only thing I'm saying is yeah you're gonna have more than three dogs.

G

We get a lot of requests for hearings for this. um There are a lot of people out there that.

G

Do dog rescues might have two pets of their own, who might have two or three dogs that they're.

G

Rescuing for people or are keeping for people, it just makes no sense to have private kennels.

G

In our ordinance and us being involved in that process, it's strictly a animal control issue.

G

I don't know what else really to say about it. I mean.

G

It costs people money to apply for approval for a private kennel. It's 150 bucks.

G

For a hearing um and all I'm saying to them is okay yeah you could have more than three dollars.

G

Anything else involved in it is like say, he's up to animal control. So I see- and I think a lot of us.

G

Other people in staff think that there's no real reason for us to be.

G

Involved in that issue so jay, I guess the one thing.

A

I mean, and I know it was dan who was adamantly opposed, but so my neighbor was brought before.

A

You for having more than three dogs for to get a private, and you did deny that from to him.

A

And what did they say why I denied it? Yes, it's it's, of course, your your letter described it.

A

Quite quite um and almost the stuff that was in the letter, I had no.

A

Idea about that, the dogs had gotten loose and had bitten, and animal control was aware of the.

A

Dogs, however, nothing had been done about them until you denied the private kettle.

G

Correct so I guess so what you're saying I understand what you're saying where maybe.

A

It shouldn't be in there, but to me nothing, nothing happened until it came before you.

G

Well, I think there are things that happen, I just don't think things were pursued or because the.

G

If I remember correctly, there was a report taken by animal control about the um the biting incident.

G

um I don't have, I say I don't interpret or enforce or anything in that law at all. So I have no reason.

G

I have nothing to think about why they didn't take any further with that right. um I think if this is.

G

The property I'm thinking of there was more than just one thing because I turned it down. I mean.

G

The they weren't being confined to the property they were getting loose.

B

Once again, that's still that's that's an animal control issue. You know. Animal control needs to.

G

Step up to the plate and enforce their ordinance if they have enforced their ordinance.

G

Then there wouldn't have been this issue of having a private kennel there right because they would.

G

I mean I have no, I have no authority to enforce anything with dogs, except that you have so many.

G

And even with the case that you're referring to.

G

As far as I'm concerned, he can still have three of the dogs.

G

And it could be for all. I know the three dogs that are the most vicious. I don't know.

G

Because I don't have any way of investigating it or enforcing anything about those dogs, it's I'm.

G

Just saying yeah you can have three or four, um and I think, though, once it came to you, though it all.

A

Of the neighboring neighbors and everybody in the area received notification too. So, like I said,.

A

Whatever's happened with animal control. I didn't receive any notification of what what that they.

G

When a police officer takes a police report, they don't notify the neighbors that they've taken a.

G

Police report or an incident- that's happened at somebody's house. That's a normal law enforcement.

G

Procedure, I guess they don't go out and tell everybody hey. We had. You know.

G

Something happened at this house um and that's the same way with animal control. They're only.

G

Dealing with the people who have the problem they're not required to notify anybody else.

G

But in this case the neighborhood did know about it because.

G

Apparently the neighbors talk to each other in your neighborhood, which is a good thing.

G

um And they all knew about it. But, like I say, there's nothing that really.

G

Says that animal control has to notify you about it.

A

Yeah, but I do see that as one advantage of keeping this in the text in that, if it's.

A

Brought up and then they're forced to apply for the private kennel, then notification does.

A

Go out to the community, I mean, I think, that's one thing. We've heard from a lot of community members.

A

Is they want to be kept informed, or at least I mean they? They don't know everything so.

A

This was one instance where I understand where you're coming from jay, but I think.

A

This gave more notification and open to the community of what's going on. Well, I'm not.

G

Disagreeing with you on that I mean like say: we do notify people because of the hearing request.

G

That's required in my procedure, but believe it or not in most of those hearings, we notify.

G

People that there's going to be a hearing about a dog kennel.

G

There are a lot of people neighbors that don't show up and just don't care. I mean it does in this.

G

Case I did, I think it brought them together more because there was a biting incident involved in it.

G

But if you were having other troubles with the dogs, I mean some people just don't care.

G

I mean it's it's up to you, I mean it's, I'm going to be doing whatever you know the county.

G

Commissioners put in the code: that's and I'm fine with it doing that, but, like I say this is really.

G

An animal control issue that.

G

They're, the ones who have the authority to take a dog away from somebody to find a dog.

G

Things of that nature that in reality should have been taken care taken in this case. um It's.

G

Something that they need to really start stepping up and doing is enforcing the laws. I mean it's.

G

It's what I do- and there are a lot of laws in here- that I don't like to enforce a lot of laws.

G

That I don't even agree with, but I still enforce it and it's that's.

G

It's their responsibility, I mean it's not mine to.

G

Rid the planet of extra dogs, I'm just trying to put something where it belongs, to be in control of.

G

Does anybody else have any questions? I do well not a question so much, um but I think.

H

That what happens is when you don't have a hearing, the citizens or the neighbors. Don't.

H

Really get a chance to say you know, so-and-so's dog ran crazy and it's been all around the.

H

Neighborhood, regardless of whether they bite somebody, um I just think it takes away that.

H

Knowing what's going on there? Well, I understand that but but then again, like I say.

G

If they're complaining to me or raising this concern during a hearing, I I don't, I can't do.

G

Anything about it, all I'm going to say, is yes: you'd have more than three dogs or no.

G

And there's no limit, I mean you could have 20 dogs on your property. If you ask for it.

G

Generally, we try to limit it to 10, that's what our policy has been, but legally, you could ask.

G

For as many as you want as pets, now are all those dogs going to be pets, I don't think so, but, like I.

G

Say I don't have any way to enforce anything and it takes time, effort and money to do something.

G

And you could have two dogs, I mean you have one dog that gets out a lot and runs around a lot.

G

And you know scares people now it doesn't have to be. You know a lot of dogs to do that and.

G

I can't do anything about that. One dog, it's that's just as bad as having to try to take care of.

G

Four or five dogs, but the people who can take care of that.

G

Are animal control and that's where it's in their ordinance about barking noise, the care of them.

G

The conditions that they're being kept in that's all in their ordinance and they can enforce it.

G

Now, whether they want to enforce it or not, that's entirely up to them, but there's nothing. I can do.

G

They call me constantly saying, or someone has three dogs, you know.

G

They, you know or say: well, they got five dogs and you can only have three. You know we want you to.

G

Go and make them get rid of the dogs, well, the way to get rid of the dogs legally through the.

G

Ordinance, I'm not telling them I'm just telling them he has to get rid of animal control. Is the.

G

One has the authority to go in and take them or or enforce whatever laws that apply at that time. So.

G

It's something that we do a lot of that.

G

You know, I feel, and I feel very strongly about it, believe it or not, is something that they should.

G

Be doing not zoning, it takes up time effort, I mean I don't have a very large staff and we are.

G

We get calls quite a bit about too many dogs on a property jay. Do you feel that maybe one reason why.

A

They don't enforce it, so much is because they know they can throw it back on our zoni code.

G

Well, all they're, throwing back on me, is how many dogs they can have the.

G

Persists, even if I say get rid of the fourth dog, you got three, the problem's still going.

G

To could still be there and that's right telling somebody how many dogs you can have.

G

Is not really solving any problems, it's it's the dogs themselves that may be the it could.

G

Be the let's say the owner could be a big part of it, but it's the dog's, behavior and.

G

Stuff that are the problem and that's nothing. I can do about that. Absolutely enough I'd say.

G

Get rid of the fourth dog, and then you could still be having a major problem.

G

And I can't even tell them what dog to get rid of if there is one dog that is particularly vicious.

G

I can't say: well you got to get rid of this dog. You know, I just have to say get rid of.

G

One of them, I don't care which one but get rid of it, so the problem can still persist.

G

And anyway, anything that can be done to enforce anything is through animal control. So I don't.

A

Know if any of the other members have any other, I know how janice feels gene. I don't know if you.

A

Guys have any well, I have a question. You know this whole conversation was centered around dogs.

E

uh And I I understand where jay's coming from, I understand the situation, but what, if there's.

E

Let's say somebody has four dogs, and then it has a bunch of I'll say other animals such as raccoons.

E

A pet pig chickens: I have no control over those other animals, the only animals I can.

G

Say to get rid of are the dogs okay, so that was. That was the basis of my question, so the.

E

Amount of other animals has nothing to do with the kind of the dogs right on, and we.

G

Had a recent well not real reason, I guess this is about. Four years ago we had a case involved with.

G

There was a couple over towards hampstead, they were keeping 200 different birds in their house.

G

And it was creating a huge health problem in their house, I mean it, it was and bothering the neighbors.

G

The birds were outside a lot in their cages and driving the neighbors nuts, but I couldn't.

G

Tell them to get rid of the birds I had to go after them for having what's called an.

G

Avr, which is the keeping of birds it's a business, was what they were doing. They.

G

Were running a business, I went after them for running a business, not because they had 200 birds.

G

Now they did eventually move the birds from the house to another location and they do run it as.

G

A business at that other location, so I wasn't. I didn't care about the birds, it was the business.

G

uh The same way with cats, you could have 200 cats on your property and there's not.

G

A thing I could do about it: raccoons I mean they're, not usually considered a domestic pet.

G

But animals that are domestic pets, like I say the only ones I have any kind of control over- are dogs.

G

And like say, if and cats and other animals, like you say they can cause.

G

Just as much problem as dogs, but I can't do anything about that.

D

You know jay, I I'm sitting here listening to you and I was pretty vocal with dan.

D

On this, too and I'll, say, the fact that you feel so strongly about this gives me calls for pause.

D

Yeah- and I don't mean a pun by that, um but but at the same time I I happen to agree with with.

D

Cynthia's statement that having a a layer here where it basically says this is kind of what our.

D

Our community's expectations are in terms of of you know. If, if you have more than three, you need.

D

To you need to go through some sort of process now again, I'm up for I'm open to taking this out of.

D

Out of out here, but I'd love to see or know what the response would be for the humane society or.

D

Whoever the animal control you know, how are they going to step up and what sort of process can they.

D

Implement to maybe supplement what we're doing away with does, and that may not be within our.

D

Purview- and so we probably need to move on because I want to be cognizant of everyone's time. But I.

D

I I'm inclined to do what you're asking us to do, but I also want to make sure that the people that.

D

Are supposed to to to carry the torch here? Because you can't, in terms of enforcement,.

D

I I would like to make sure that our communities have some sort of reasonable expectation.

G

Oh, and I understand that I do I truly do um and once one other things I mean.

G

You can have up to three dogs with canine teeth. You could have as many puppies as you want.

G

So if, if you know you could have 20 puppies at a place and there'd be a dog breeder running a.

G

Business now I'll go after them for running a business if that's possible, but you could have.

G

You may not have any three any adult dogs, you may have just all puppies and there's.

G

Not a thing I can do about it, I said that's where animal control regulations stepped in at.

C

So no decisions need to be made tonight. Obviously, and this body is just a recommending body, so you.

C

Know again, this is going before the board of county commissioners as well. So I think a good.

C

Place would be, you know we can come back to this at another time when more members are present.

C

And come to a recommendation decision, that's what we're going to do for all of these.

C

So again, no decisions need to be made tonight when we.

C

Package this up, we will have final recommended decisions by this body to move forward with agreed.

A

um But I think the discussion we're having thanks jay for all I mean I understand your frustration.

A

And and peter, I think you said exactly what I was thinking I I guess it gives at least the.

A

Community in the neighborhood, some kind of known something, but it seems limited and it sounds.

A

Like it's putting a lot of time and effort on our zoning administrator that could be spent elsewhere,.

A

I think we're ready to move to the next one okay, so I will put this on the list.

F

Of items that you'll take a vote on at the next meeting or possibly um the meeting following that.

F

um That should be with all of them. I think again, no vote.

C

And vote, if that's how you all want to handle it.

C

We'll go back and have final recommendations for each item.

F

Okay, the next issue that you had requested be brought back to you is regarding storage.

F

Containers, and actually this is incorrect not as a temporary use but as a permanent accessory use.

F

The current code does not specifically address the portable storage containers as permanent.

F

Structures there's a new section proposed.

F

That says that a self-contained portable struct storage container, that is used as a shed.

F

Is considered a permanent structure and must be located wholly within the rear yard.

F

There was concern when this it was actually discussed at two different meetings and there.

F

Was concern regarding the inclusion of this type of structure as a permanent accessory use.

F

Particularly without a size limitation, so again I'm going to turn this over to jay to talk about.

F

Maybe a possible size limitation or any other concerns that you have yeah. um I say that once.

G

Again, this is another issue, that's becoming a much larger issue, because more and more people.

G

Are buying sea containers and using them as sheds um they're cheap. You can buy one for a thousand.

G

Dollars or less and they're just as good as if not better than any wooden shed you're going.

G

Going to get on your property to secure stuff, it is becoming a problem. We've recently had a case.

G

You know where the neighbors don't look like looking at it. I understand that I particularly.

G

Wouldn't want to look at a storage container as a shed. I'd rather see something nicer.

G

But then again also under our code, I could have a jumped up car sitting on my property and there's.

G

Nothing we can do about it and that's going to look just as bad, if not worse than a c container.

G

So I mean in a way you know true they're they're not the same, but if you're looking at.

G

How things are looked at they're? The same I mean they're, not pretty. They sometimes can be ugly.

G

But so is a jumped up car sitting on your property. What I'd like to see would do is allow miss sheds.

G

As a permanent structure- and we can put some requirements on that, we can limit the size of.

G

I mean now you can get them usually in 20 foot, lengths, 40 foot and 53 foot lengths.

G

Like I say, they only cost a thousand fifteen hundred dollars to buy a 53 foot container.

G

I would like, if we allow this to say a maximum 20 feet and they have to be kept in good repair.

G

They have to be in the rear yard, not a left, not you know parked alongside the house or.

G

In front of the house, but it totally in the rear, just like a shed has to be um it's. It's just.

G

Something that is the increasing issue with more and more people buying these c containers. I mean.

A

I think that sounds reasonable at 20 feet. I think that's more than plenty, I mean that's a pretty big.

G

Structure yeah, the containers are usually eight feet wide and.

G

Yeah foot long and eight to nine foot tall depending on what type you get.

G

It's about the same size as a lot of sheds. Most people buy and drive have delivered to their.

G

Property and a guy backs up in the truck and drops it off in the rear yard and there's an instant jet.

G

A lot of people do that it's sea container comes to you the same way.

G

A guy in a truck drives up to your property, backs up into your yard, and then he leaves it there.

G

I know we have talked about possibly putting some screening around it or doing something of.

G

That nature, um I see an issue with that. We don't require sheds to be screened. We don't.

G

I could put a 30 by 40 building in my backyard. It's not required to be screened.

G

Yeah, like I said, would I like to see one in my backyard, not particularly.

G

Would like to see one of my neighbors yard, not particularly, but then.

G

Once again, it's something that is becoming a larger issue. All the time.

G

And we just had one issue that we're still working on.

G

Someone had a seat container, we told them they had to get rid of it.

G

They went ahead and turned it into a trailer. They put wheels on it that met the motor vehicle code.

G

They put lights, they put a trailer um hook on it, they did everything they needed to do to make it a.

G

Trailer and they got it registered in the state of maine as a licensed trailer, there's not a thing. I.

G

Can do once they do that it's a license to vehicle debt and it's still sitting in the same spot. It's.

G

Still, actually, sitting up on blocks a little bit and as long as it's a tagged vehicle there's.

G

Nothing, I can do I mean so there's ways of getting around it like just about everything else, but.

G

I'd rather have some control over it and and try to do it that way and have something where.

G

We can actually say yeah. The code says: yes, you can have one, but it has to be.

G

No more than 20 feet long, maybe a limit of only one per property might be another thing.

G

To add to it, so someone doesn't bring in four or five of them um and there are people that.

G

Have four or five sheds on their property, so I could see that happening. So I think there.

G

Are things we can do to help control it? I just don't think we're going to be able to stop it or.

G

uh Like I say, enforce it well not to have him at all.

D

You know jay, I'm thinking limiting the number and limiting the the size is probably.

D

The both of those things seem reasonable to me. The truth of it is like you, I wouldn't want one.

D

In my backyard- and I really wouldn't want my neighbors to have one either and and and.

D

You know, I don't think ours, our association wouldn't allow it. So you know that that's one.

D

Thing I think that that again can can maybe save some of the neighborhoods from this sort of thing.

D

If we think they need to be saved at all, they can, they can save themselves to some degree right.

G

And what you're saying is true: there are some homeowners associations that wouldn't allow it.

G

Some of them, you have to have a very certain type of shed.

G

In your backyard, according to their rules, um but then again that's an issue that of.

G

The neighborhood that belongs to that association to enforce.

G

And it's like you say: if a neighborhood says hey: no, we don't want them, so you can't have them.

G

On your property in their neighborhood, I can't enforce that, but the homeowners association can.

G

Because that's that's a private regulation, it's not government sponsored. um That is one way of.

G

Controlling them, but then again some homeowners associations, you have some that are very active.

G

And then you have some that aren't active at all and you can do whatever you want and violate the.

G

Law, their law, so I mean it's if we're gonna have to deal with it. I'd rather from my standpoint have.

G

Some control or say what you can have there and try to limit the impact they have on properties.

H

So I agree with what you're saying, um but I'm curious when you say good repair.

H

What determines that good repair so if it has to be in good condition,.

G

We we have one section in the code that on commercial properties, that they're allowed to have.

G

Containers and there's a section that they have to be maintained and kept painted in good repair.

G

Basically, I would say you know no big holes in them or you know rusted out. That's why you would.

G

Keep it painted to stop it from rusting. That would probably be one of the biggest issues.

G

About the maintenance of everything going is keeping them painted, so they look nice.

G

So you can get a lot of stuff yeah and there's a lot of sheds out there. If you go drive around.

G

There are some beautiful sheds out there. There are some outside that are ready to fall down.

G

Yeah, I can't do anything about it, it's still still there so, like I say if we.

G

Have a chance to control some of the things that are happening to it.

G

I think from a county standpoint, I think we'd be better off doing that.

A

Yeah, I think we all agree with you to add that language into the to the text.

F

Okay, so we're adding in that they have to be kept in good repair.

F

One per property and 20 foot maximum in size.

A

Yeah totally wholly within the rear yard. Right right, like we already said, yeah, okay,.

F

Okay, did you want me to move on to the next one, or did you want to wrap it up and continue next time.

A

Janice, do you have time I mean if you have to leave, I don't want.

A

You're all mute you're on mute janice, it's good! You couldn't hear what I was saying anyway,.

H

I am I'm good for a short period of time, but um I'm yes, I've got like.

A

What's the next one mary we'll see the next one is private schools. I can probably get through that.

F

Fast talking in 10 minutes, okay, okay, if I can move my slides okay, this was brought to your attention.

F

By the owner of gristel academy, as well as jack lyburn, the current code permits private schools.

F

By right in all the residential districts and public schools are also permitted by right.

F

In fact, it doesn't differentiate between the two. The staff proposal was to allow private schools.

F

In all the districts, the four districts with conditional use approval we did identify after.

F

We received this comment for schools that are currently operating in the county. That would.

F

Become non-conforming uses because they would not have a conditional use approval, they could get a.

F

Conditional use of approval and become conforming, but um that's it that's not always what people.

F

Desire to do so letters have been received again from gristell academy and the director of the.

F

Department of economic development uh requesting that, at least in the r 40 000 district, which.

F

Is where that property is, and it is a large property, it's 92 acres.

F

That private schools remain a permitted use, but um they also did point out and request that we go.

F

Back to the way that currently is that private schools are not differentiated from.

F

Public schools and the reference should be changed to just permit all.

F

Schools in all residential districts, so there's kind of two options there. You could do the.

F

More specific requests, if you wish to just allow um private schools in the r 40 000.

F

Without a conditional use, or we could go back to the way the code is currently written, that they.

F

All be permitted in all the residential districts or you could leave it as proposed.

F

Does anybody have any questions.

F

Is there any further information you would want me to find on this before you make a decision and.

F

Take a vote at the next meeting or for the future meeting so currently they're allowed by right.

A

Correct so we're changing some we're changing the code to then make them a non-conforming.

A

But similar, I think, we've received comments also from the community too. That.

A

Potentially, they should be conditional because without being able to just.

A

Stick a school in without the community having at least a discussion about it.

A

um Well, another option would be I mean we did this on a few other uses with commercial and industrial.

F

You could technically grandfather the existing. As of um you know, july 1st 2021, the existing.

F

Private schools would be considered permitted uses. The use table would actually spell that.

F

Out and they would not become non-conforming if, if that was your, if you wanted to protect.

F

The existing private schools from getting that status as well as um change the code so that.

F

Future ones did have to go through the process of neighborhood input. You could do that as well.

D

Yeah mary, I see this as being very similar to what we face over there at the hospital I mean.

D

Obviously, a different use, you know where we've got something going on it's a it's an enormous.

D

Asset and no one's really complaining about what's going on there and how it's being done, you know.

D

We're just trying to tighten up our codes so that in the future you know things aren't done and so.

D

I think either grandfathering it or yeah. I don't feel strongly one way or the other. I.

D

I appreciate what we're trying to do here um and I wish I had a strong. um You know feeling.

D

About which is best would mary, which, which do you think, is the best way to do this, so that we.

D

You know provide gerstel and the other existing schools with the certainty that they need, so that.

D

They can operate in the future, but then we're not opening. You know r40 to future school development.

D

Without the community's input well, I will say that our our group staff recommendation was to.

F

Make it conditional, but we really hadn't done the research on if we were impacting existing.

F

Institutions, so if you do want to protect the existing institutions from that status, that would.

F

Be the option would be to have have two almost separate types of private schools: private schools.

F

In existence on july, 1st, 2021 and those not in existence, one would be a permitted use. One would.

F

Be a conditional use and it's a little unusual but, as I said, we did it with the commercial and.

F

Industrial, when we didn't want to negatively impact existing uses, you wouldn't want to do it.

F

Throughout the code with every single use, but in this case I think it's been identified and you've.

F

Gotten a pretty good case made to you by gerstel academy. It would not want to become conditional.

F

So I mean one of the things: if you don't you don't want to really try or do? Is you don't want to.

G

Put a non-conforming use on them too, because that could affect them financially with banks and loan.

G

Organizations they see non-conforming on something that can really affect those type of activities. So.

G

If you could make them, you know, like mary said either you know permitted and conditional uses.

G

You know that would be great, I mean when you get down to it. A school is a school whether.

G

It's a small six children, amish school house or at some place like um gerstell academy. There there's.

G

All schools, and currently, like I say, they're permitted uses you could also take a size.

F

Crystal academies on over 90 acres, if, if you didn't want to specifically grandfather them, you.

F

Could pick a size that you thought was reasonable to be a permitted use um that wouldn't negatively.

F

Impact neighbors, even in the future, it wouldn't just be grandfathering an existing one. So there's.

F

There's a few options: if that's the direction, you want to go in also one other thing just just.

G

Maybe to think about in our code currently for schools, there are different acreage requirements.

G

That you have to meet to have a school on a property you can't in an r40 zone. That's usually.

G

One acre lots or close to one acre lots for an elementary school. It takes a minimum of five acres.

G

So it's not like you're going to be putting a large school or anything like that on a one.

G

Acre lot I mean there are lot size requirements and even for a small school, it's a school. It.

G

Requires that five acres for a school- um it's not going to be put on. You know a one acre or.

G

Eight and a half lot for for school, it's got to meet those other requirements also.

F

That's a really good point. We do have in the new um bulk requirements for elementary and.

F

Middle, it has to be on at least five acres high school, at least 10 acres, and that isn't.

F

um That doesn't differentiate the public from the private, so you really wouldn't have to worry.

F

About it, it wouldn't meet those requirements, although it could probably get a variance j.

F

If it really yeah okay, it probably could but, like I say, to get a variance from five acres.

G

Down to one acre, that's a big variance and that would probably at least require going.

G

Before the board, instead of coming before me for a variance, it would require a full hearing problem.

F

Do you want me to before the next meeting almost put together a chart of like four or five options.

F

On this one from leaving it the way we proposed it to leaving it the way the current code is.

F

And several options in between yeah, and especially somehow we can get an idea like.

A

I mean gerstel's bigger, but there's three other schools. I would imagine one is the north carol.

A

Community school that we have often 97 that we've seen a couple times.

F

I'm not sure that's on residential land, no okay,.

F

Okay, yeah most of the other ones, are an egg, the other. Actually it's a.

F

Total of four, so the other three are all on properties that are under um four acres. So.

A

Okay, yeah so they're already under I'm sorry under five acres.

A

A

Yeah, if you could put together the the couple options.

A

Okay, so then, at the next meeting we planned on coming back to these.

F

Doing um some of the more difficult issues or not more difficult, necessarily but more.

F

Controversial, which were cluster subdivisions, age-restricted housing and accessory dwelling.

F

Units was also brought up and anything else. Commission members want us to bring to them.

A

Sounds good. Thank you.

A

So um we do have uh item number. Eight is our public comment because I do.

A

See we have a caller on the line? Can you control? Can you unmute that caller we'll.

A

Okay, but I guess it is what it is. Thank you uh caller uh we're having a problem. Unmuting.

A

You, if you wanted to make a comment, uh we will I've, as we talked about bring this up at our.

A

Next meeting you're more than welcome to call in at that time and make your public comment.

A

So with that I'll say, our next meeting is tuesday july 20th. It's a business meeting at nine o'clock.

A

In person at the county office building so with that, I'm gonna make a motion to adjourn.

A

And I will not be there in two weeks so see you guys in a little bit. Thank you.

A