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From YouTube: Burlington Police Commission - 8/23/2022
Description
Agenda: http://go.boarddocs.com/vt/burlingtonvt/Board.nsf/goto?open&id=CHFP6462F1B8
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https://linktr.ee/townmeetingtv
Burlington Police Commission 8/23/22 Agenda:
1. Agenda
2. Chief's Report
3. Public Forum
4. Election of Chairs
5. Approve Minutes: May 24, 2022
6. Approve Minutes: June 28, 2022
7. Approve Minutes: August 3, 2022
8. Annual Report
9. Mental Health & Complaint Policy Updates
10. Conflict Counsel: BPOA Contract, Complaint Policy
11. Use of Force Report
12. Commissioner Comments
13. Setting Agenda for Next Meeting
14. Executive Session
15. Adjourn
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A
A
A
B
B
A
C
C
C
D
C
D
C
Let's
move
on
regarding
hiring
how
is
bpd,
coordinating
with
the
city
hr
office,
to
promote
diversity
and
hiring
describe
the
proposed
recruitment
coordinator
position,
the
we
work
with
hr
to
leverage
hr's
networks,
I've
described
them
at
length
in
previous
chiefs
reports,
including
slides
that
name
a
lot
of
those
entities,
all
of
which
are
places
where
hr
sends
postings.
So,
in
addition
to
posting
online,
they
send
additional
information
or
notifications
rather
to
those
entities.
C
We
use
that
we
are
we've
just,
I
believe,
the
the
recruitment,
the
proposed
recruitment
coordinator
position,
the
job
description
has
been
finalized
and
I
believe
that
is
in
hr's
hands
to
have
that
posted
if
it
has
not
already
been
posted.
The
next
question
was
there's
now:
funding
for
12
csos
with
six
slots
filled
describe
how
this
group
is
or
will
be
managed.
Is
there
a
staff
or
sworn
officer
who
manages
this
group?
C
So
we've
had
the
six
csos
for
quite
some
time
now
they
are
managed
by
a
sergeant
who
has
responsibility
for
them
as
a
group,
but
on
an
individual
day-by-day
basis.
They
are
a
part
of
the
deployment
in
usb,
and
so
they
fall
under
the
the
direction
of
whomever
is
the
officer
in
charge
for
that
shift.
Normally
an
officer
in
charge
is
a
lieutenant
on
occasion.
Officers
in
charge
are
sergeants
the
csos
who
are
deployed
in
any
given
shift
answer
to
that
sergeant
or
that
oic.
C
C
We
are
in
discussions
with
the
with
with
hr
to
potentially
create
a
civilian
position
akin
to
the
one
that
is
currently
occupied
by
lacie
smith
for
the
csls
for
the
csos,
but
that
requires
creating
the
job,
description,
grading
it
getting
city,
council,
board
of
finance,
approval,
etc.
So
we're
a
ways
off
for
that,
but
overall,
their
staffing
is
managed
by
designated
sergeant
vinnie
ross.
C
C
So,
in
addition
to
the
the
current
contract,
which
I
think
is
really
strong
and
fair
with
regard
to
compensation,
73
000
for
starting
officers,
a
hundred
thousand
dollars
for
top
pay
officers
once
the
contract
matures
in
three
years,
there
would
be
an
additional
penalty
of
on
an
hourly
rate
if
we
were
to
go
to
12
hour
shifts.
That
is
something,
therefore,
that
we
would
have
to
put
a
lot
of
thought
into
doing
before
doing
it.
It
would
be
inordinately
expensive
for
the
city
and
that's
the
questions.
F
C
F
D
C
Was
promulgated
we
got
respondents
a
respondent
was
selected
and
that
respondents
estimate
for
cost
was
far
higher
than
the
city
was
had
estimated
its
own
outlay.
We
are
in
the
process
of
attempting
to
identify
somebody
who
can
shepherd
the
process
through
work
with
the
state
to
determine
if
there
is
funding
available
at
the
state
level,
perhaps
assuage
some
other
or
minimize
some
of
the
funding
expectations
that
are
coming
from
the
respondent
and
see
if
we
can
get
it
closer
to
the
goal
line.
C
C
No,
it
was
just
a
matter
of
going
through
that
report
and
talking
about
the
the
data.
That's
in
there
the
volume
data,
the
staffing
data
that
we've
got
some
of
the
big
events
that
happened
this
past
month.
We
had
a
lot
of
very
important
events.
I
think
you
know
there
was
a
an
opportunity
for,
let's
see,
I
think
some
of
the
more
important
ones
were.
C
We
announced
that
rebuilding
plan
with
regard
to
the
contract
and
the
budget
on
august
8th
and
then
later
that
same
day,
we
had
a
terrific
awards
ceremony
awarding
officers
for
conduct
in
2021
and
exemplary
conduct,
and
so
that
was
a
great
opportunity.
The
the
mayor
and
many
others
were
able
to
come
to
that
award
ceremony
and
hear
about
some
of
the
work
that
the
officers
do.
C
We
had
the
south
end
vandalism
spree
sort
of
built
on
some
of
the
things
that
commissioner
comfort
had
talked
about
in
our
previous
meeting
at
the
very
beginning
of
august.
You
know
just
only
worse
as
far
as
the
level
of
vandalism
that
occurred
there
different
and
a
different
actor
but
significant.
We
had
a
shopping.
We
had
a
shooting
at
the
shelburne
road
shopping
plaza
where
market
32
is
on
august
11th,
we
had
a
double
shooting
on
main
street
on
august
13th.
C
In
the
very
early
morning,
hours
of
august
13th
we
had
an
officer
involved,
shooting
the
vermont
state
police
came
in
to
assist
with
bar
closing
also
on
august
13th.
It
was
a
very
very
busy
weekend,
on
top
of
a
very
busy
week,
a
very
stressful
week
for
a
lot
of
men
and
women
inside
the
department
on
august
19th.
C
So
we
had
that
ceremony
that
was
really
wonderful
and
an
opportunity
again
to
recognize
officers
who
are
moving
forward
and
officers
who
are
coming
aboard
and
to
recognize
that
their
families
are
going
to
be
along
for
this
ride
as
well
so
having
their
families.
There
was
nice,
then
that
same
night
we
had
a
shooting
at
the
skate
park.
C
C
H
C
Sure
so
there
is
a
graphic
in
the
chief's
report
that
shows
the
volume
that
we've
experienced
this
far
for
the
past
several
years
since
2012
when
valkor
was
implemented.
I
think
it's
shocking.
It's
a
shocking
graphic
shows
both
the
the
increase
in
overall,
the
increase
in
in
incidents
in
which
people
are
struck,
the
increase
in
homicides
now
and
the
increase
in
incidents
where
we
know
people
are
shooting
at
one
another.
C
C
Excuse
me
a
reasonable
suspicion,
determination
that
they
are
was
they
were
shooting
at
each
other.
A
case
in
point
would
be
last
night's
incident.
We
do
believe
that
they
were
shooting
at
each
other,
but
we
don't
have
enough
proof
of
that
yet
to
know
for
sure,
and
so
I'm
not
going
to
call
that
a
light
blue
box,
I'm
going
to
call
it
a
white
box
until
we
are
able
to
get
additional
information
from
either
better
information
from
new
witnesses
or
video
canvases
or
perhaps
from
people
involved
or
suspects.
C
What
do
we
do?
I've
had
a
number
of
meetings
about
that
recently
meetings
with
members
of
our
federal
partners,
including
the
atf
dea,
the
fbi,
hsi
meetings
with
the
vermont
state
police
at
length
and
on
multiple
topics
meeting
with
the
meetings
with
the
commissioner
of
public
safety
and
even
with
the
mayor
and
the
governor
on
these
topics
and
these
issues.
There
are
a
number
of
things
in
the
works
and
I'm
hopeful
that
we'll
be
able
to
make
some
announcements
next
week
about
some
of
the
more
specific
things
we'll
be
doing.
I
B
Moving
on
to
the
next
agenda
item
2.0
on,
which
is
the
public
forum
at
this
point
in
time,
I'll
start
with
online
public
comments.
First,
if
anyone
is
in
the
attend,
is
in
the
of
the
attendees
list,
please
raise
your
hand
and
you'll
be
promoted
to
a
panelist
to
speak,
and
I
ask
you
to
keep
your
comments
to
three
minutes
following
people
that
are
here
with
us
in
person,
you'll
be
invited
to
come,
speak
and
you'll
have
three
minutes
as
well.
Thank
you.
B
J
J
J
What
you've
done
you've
been
doing
work
on
the
ground
and
in
the
community
that,
I
think
you
know
in
the
long
run,
does
have
an
impact
on
preventing
violence
and
stuff
in
our
community.
So
I
just
really
wanted
to
tune
in
and
thank
you
all
for
your
service.
Thank
you.
Thank
you.
Thank
you.
So
much
that
that's
all
I
have
for
tonight.
B
K
Yeah,
my
name
is
jacob
schumann,
I'm
a
resident
of
ward
one.
So
I
just
wanted
to
speak
briefly
about
the
events
that
took
place
early
in
the
morning
of
august.
14Th
excuse
me
so
I
was.
I
was
downtown
with
some
folks
from
btv
cop
watch.
I
was,
I
am
an
emt
and
I
had
my
license
on
me.
My
my
vermont
emt
practitioner's
license.
K
I
was
attempting
to
be
a
medical
observer
to
ensure
that
you
know
everything
was
okay
as
an
impartial
third
party.
I
think
that's
an
important
role
to
play.
I'm
not
sure
why
this
keeps
cutting
out.
So
that
was
fine.
You
know
that
was
working
out
just
fine,
but
when
I
interjected
on
behalf
of
mr
benizola's
dignity
and
asked
that
officers
pull
his
pants
up
because
they
had
pulled
them
down
and
his
butt
was
exposed
to
the
world,
you
know
I
was
asked
to
to
leave
the
area.
K
So
you
know,
given
that
there
was
no
other
medical
oversight,
while
somebody
was
being
restrained
which
we
know
poses
risks
to
physical
safety
and
health
well-being.
You
know
I,
I
would
ask
that
the
department
and
the
commission
consider
when
professionals
identify
themselves
during
the
course
of
a
situation
and
present.
K
L
L
Touched
and
detained
try
to
detain
the
individual
without
stating
the
reason
there
was
no
attempt
at
the
escalation
if
anything
their
shoving
and
pushing
this
individual
escalated.
The
situation
and
also
it
was.
It
was
clear
that
the
individuals
were
he
was
triggered.
He
was
being
humiliated
sexually
with
his.
You
know
he
was
naked
from
the
waist
down
in
front
of
dozens
of
people
later
that
individual
in
the
week.
L
It's
clear
to
me
that,
whatever
the
escalation
training
that
the
officers
receive
were
not
employed-
and
this
is
only
just
the
latest
incident
that
I
witnessed
this
year-
and
I
just
happened
to
have
a
camera
with
me-
and
I
was
able
to
record
the
whole
thing
in
under
two
minutes-
the
officers
went
from
first
noticing
this
individual
to
tackling
him
down
and
arresting
him,
and
but
this
is
this
is
not
the
first
time
I've
witnessed
this.
In
fact,
I've
witnessed
this
many
times
over
my
years
here,
living
in
burlington
earlier
this
year.
L
People
who
were
mostly
just
want
to
be
left
alone
were
picked
on,
and
then
these
are
people
are
already
vulnerable,
they're
already
struggling
with
mental
health
issues,
interaction
with
the
police,
the
that
kind
of
escalated
interaction
with
the
police.
It
does
not
help
with
their
struggle
and
what
happens
is
then
they
would
went
on
to
commit
more
serious
violations
and
it's
it's
a
sick
way
of
dealing
with
the
problems
that
we're
facing,
and
I
hope
the
commission
can
do
something
about
that.
Thank
you
very
much.
B
A
H
E
B
H
B
B
D
It,
I
think
I
I
encourage
all
of
the
public
to
read
it.
It
documents
the
work
of
the
commission
and
the
expanding
the
changing
role
of
the
commission
in
terms
of
our
work
on
complaints
on
re
on
on
policy
and
some
other
changes
in
terms
of
the
roles
that
we
perform,
and
I
just
want
to
thank
everybody
on
the
commission
for
their
work
on
putting
this
report
together.
D
D
It
also
documents
the
work
that
we
have
done
in
revising
policies
and
I
think
very
importantly,
for
the
first
time
we
have
also
set
annual
goals
for
next
year
and
that
document
identifies
those
those
annual
goals.
In
addition
to
that,
the
report
identifies
reports
that
the
commission
has
has
written
or
comments
that
it
is
made,
for
example,
on
the
draft
ordinance
to
alter
the
role
of
the
the
police
commission
in
terms
of
civilian
oversight.
So
those
are
the
some
of
the
highlights
of
the
report
for
the
public.
G
A
D
A
B
G
I
can
provide
a
report
on
the
mental
health,
which
is
that
we
got
a
little
sidetracked
on
that,
but
it
is
just
had
a
lot
of
things
as
a
commission
that
we've
been
working
on.
So
I
think
commissioner
cumberford
and
I
are
ready
to
put
the
redlined
or
the
track-
we're
ready
to
put
some
revisions
together
to
present
to
folks
and
go
from
there,
hopefully
with
by
the
september
meeting.
D
The
we've
done
a
few
things
since
our
last
meeting.
We
one
of
the
recommendations
of
the
cna
was
to
collect
demographic
data
on
complainants,
and
we
are
proceeding
with
that.
Interchanging.
The
complaint
form
we're
also
moving
forward
with
some
additional
work.
We
have
sent
out
a
survey
to
complaints
about
the
the
complaint
process,
how
it
has
worked
for
them.
What
changes
might
be
made
to
make
it
more
effective
and
meet
the
needs
of
the
community?
D
We
are
also
working
on
some
changes
to
the
complaint
policy
itself
and,
in
particular,
the
process.
It's
become
very
clear
from
inquiries
from
a
variety
of
community
members
that
the
community
is
not
aware
of
how
to
submit
a
complaint
or
the
process
for
reviewing
complaints
or
the
commission's
role
in
complaints,
and
so
commissioner,
keith
and
hart-
and
I
are
working
on
that-
and
in
particular
developing
a
process
and
a
flow
chart.
D
If
you
will,
that
can
be
shared
with
the
community
with
with
regard
to
how
the
complaint
process
works,
there's
a
lot
of
work
actually
to
do
to
change
the
complaint
process.
There
are
many
aspects
of
it
to
make
it
more
effective
and
for
us
to
be
able
to
more
carefully
document
the
process
and
we're
working
on
that.
So
this
is
a
multi-month
process,
but
those
who
are
complaints,
who
have
made
a
complaint
in
the
last
year
or
two
years.
D
B
D
Okay,
sorry,
that's!
He
was,
I
guess,
they're
in
your
absence
last
week,
dc
lebron.
Can
you
I'm
I'm
referencing
the
use
the
second
use
of
force
report
and
that
had
to
do
with
a
high
risk?
Stop
my
understand
that
in
reading
the
incident
report,
that
guns
were
drawn
and
it
my
understanding,
is
that
this
is
a
policy
that
guns
are
drawn.
Can
you
direct
us
to
which
policy
contains
that
guidance.
D
D
G
N
So
the
way
benchmark
works,
it
only
runs
reports
yearly,
quarterly
or
monthly.
I
can
dig
through
the
use
of
force
reports
and
but
I
will
not
have
time
and
nor
do
I
have
the
time
to
go
into
individual
incidents
and
then
try
to
figure
out
what
happened,
and
so
I
can
give
you.
I
could
give
you
the
race.
The
number
of
officers.
D
N
G
G
N
F
F
I
B
M
Excellent,
oh,
never
a
bad
thing.
Well.
Thank
you,
commissioners.
I
believe
this
is
to
talk
about
changes
to
the
contract,
the
the
union's
contract
with
the
police
department,
and
you
should
have
received
from
me
a
memorandum
that
deals
with
deals
with
the
changes
and
highlights
the
changes
relative
to
the
commission's
historic
interest
in
aspects
around
transparency
and
the
commission's
complaint
procedure.
M
D
M
Great
and
if
I
I'll
I'm
happy
to
do
that,
and
I
think
that
the
key
questions
had
to
do
with
the
ability
of
the
commission
to
make
summaries
of
complaints
received
and
resolutions
achieved
public
as
part
of
your
annual
report,
with
with
certain
identifying
information
redacted
from
them.
So
I
will
touch
on
those
questions
as
well
as
step
through
the
memo.
Very
briefly,
and
I
believe
this
memo
should
be
available
to
the
public
as
well
having
been
posted
I'll.
M
M
M
M
One
of
the
steps
that
can
be
taken
in
an
internal
investigation
is
to
interview
the
employee,
who
is
the
subject
of
a
complaint
and
previously
prior
to
that
interview
being
taken.
The
employee
would
know
the
name
of
the
witnesses
and
others
who
would
be
spoken
to
in
the
investigation
before
sitting
for
the
interview
that
that
information
is
still
disclosed
to
the
employee
under
investigation,
but
it's
not
disclosed
until
after
the
first
interview
occurs.
M
More
significantly,
there
have
been
changes,
and
this
is
consistent
with
commission
previous
recommendations.
There
have
been
changes
to
the
confidentiality
of
the
investigatory
file.
Previously,
the
contract
between
the
union
and
the
department
applied
blanket
confidentiality
to
any
information
gained
in
the
course
of
an
investigation
into
a
department
employee
that
limited
access
to
the
investigatory
file
to
the
chief,
the
city
attorney,
the
human
resources
director
and
the
department
investigator,
and
it
limited
the
investigator
or
any
of
those
parties
from
voluntarily
disclosing
that
information.
M
The
confidentiality
that
has
been
retained
in
the
new
contract
applies
only
to
information
gained
directly
from
the
employee's
statements
during
any
interview
that
could
lead
to
disciplinary
action,
and
this
goes
right
to
the
heart
of
the
question
that
was
put
to
me
with
regard
to
changes
in
the
commissions
or
contemplated
changes
in
the
commission's
complaint
procedure,
because
previously,
under
the
the
earlier
contract,
the
entire
investigatory
file
was
supposed
to
be
held
in
confidence
now
prior
to
discipline
being
meted
out.
If
any,
that
confidentiality
is
still
supposed
to
apply.
M
But
after
the
case
has
been
resolved,
other
aspects
of
the
file
are
not
required
to
be
maintained
as
confidential.
So,
there's
a
possibility
that,
for
example,
in
an
annual
report
for
the
commission
or
in
any
process,
the
commission
may
undertake
to
share
the
resolution
of
any
complaint
with
the
public
or
with
the
complainant
that
other
things
that
came
to
light
in
the
course
of
the
investigation,
which
previously
could
not
be
made
public
now
can
be
made
public.
M
M
Even
then,
there
is
a
small
change
with
regard
to
the
commission's
access
to
that
material
and
that
pertains
to
the
commission
can
get
access
to
information
gained
directly
from
an
employee's
interview
in
the
event
that
the
commission
is
called
upon
to
fulfill
its
appellate
role
when
there
is
a
grievance.
That's
taken
up
from
the
chief's
decision.
A
M
It
goes
through
a
fairly
detailed
summary
of
all
of
the
complaints
that
the
commission
in
boulder
colorado
dealt
with
during
the
course
of
the
year
and
in
similar
fashion,
without
naming
individuals,
whether
they
be
complainants
or
officers
under
investigation.
It
does
give
a
rather
lengthy
summary
of
the
complaint,
the
steps
that
were
taking
the
investigation
and
the
resolution
of
the
complaint,
and
the
question
was
asked
whether
that
would
be
a
practice
under
the
new
contract
that
this
commission
could
adopt.
And
in
fact
my
view
is
that
it
could
be
adopted.
M
Although
I
did
in
looking
through
the
various
complaints
that
we
were
reported
in
the
city
of
boulder's
annual
report,
I
did
note
that
there
were
a
couple
of
instances
where
statements
made
by
department.
Employees
who
are
the
subject
of
the
investigation
were
excerpted
and
placed
into
the
summary
of
the
complaint
resolution
statement
in
the
city
of
boulder's
report.
That
is,
and
that
is
an
example
of
something
that
could
still
could
not
be
done.
M
So
an
employee,
a
department,
employee
or
an
officer
statement
made
during
the
course
of
an
investigatory
interview
could
not
be
included
in
a
summary
of
the
report.
That's
distinguished
from
an
officer's
statement.
That's
made
in
public
in
front
of
other
members
of
the
public,
or
you
know,
made
an
officer
statement
that
may
have
precipitated
a
complaint
or
a
statement
that
an
officer
may
have
made
in
the
press
or
an
employee.
M
M
Lawyers
might
disagree
on
whether
that's
mandatory
or
just
an
a
statement
of
shared
values
that
you
know
can
be
deviated
from
in
an
appropriate
case,
but
as
far
as
what
happens
after
the
disciplinary
action
has
been
resolved.
It's
clear
that
a
much
broader
universe
of
information
is
now
susceptible
being
shared
with
the
public
and
the
contract
is
not
an
obstacle
to
that.
B
B
B
B
F
F
I
I
I
don't
even
have
a
proper
word
for
it.
I
guess
when
I
listen
to
the
list
of
partners,
what
continues
to
discourage
me
is,
I
don't
hear
any
community
engagement.
So
if
we're
going
to
point
the
finger
at
a
particular
particular
groups
in
our
community,
what
specifically
is
going
on
to
do
outreach
to
that
community?
There's
not
mention
of
community
partners,
and
that
worries
me.
F
G
Yeah
chief,
I'm
wondering
if
you
can
speak
to
one
thing
that
the
gun
violence
has
been
brought
up.
Another
issue
that
I'm
seeing
a
lot
of
discussion
about
in
the
public
has
to
do
with
bike
theft
and
auto
theft,
and
for
some
folks
their
bicycle
is
their
commute.
You
know
that's
how
they
get
to
work,
that
is
their
transportation,
and
I'm
wondering
if
we
can
discuss
what
their
expectations
should
be
with
the
department.
What
they're
supposed
to
do?
Is
it
just
talk
us
through
what's
going
on?
If
you
can
thanks
sure.
C
Thank
you.
So
we
do
have.
We've
certainly
seen
an
uptick
in
vehicle
thefts
and
among
the
many
things
we're
hopeful
that
we
can
do
is
encourage
people
to
make
themselves
harder
targets
for
both
vehicle
theft
and
bicycle
theft.
The
chief
of
staff
in
the
mayor's
office
has
worked
on
a
piece
that
we
are
going
to
be
mailing
out
that
talks
a
lot
about
crime
prevention
methods
with
regard
to
bicycles
with
regard
to
vehicles,
and
I
hope
that
that
will
will
create
some
bit
of
change.
We.
C
It
includes
also
an
ability
to
register
bicycles
so
that
when
we
recover
them,
we
can
know
that
they
belong
to
someone.
It
is
not
in.
It
is
not
rare
for
us
to
encounter
a
person
on
a
bicycle
who
does
not
appear
to
be
the
legitimate
owner
of
that
bicycle,
but
if
we
have
no
means
of
proving
that
we
have
to
let
that
individual
ride
off
on
that
bicycle,
sometimes
a
mere
query.
If
we've
lawfully
engaged
with
that
individual
is
enough
for
the
person
to
say.
Oh,
it's
not
my
bicycle.
C
I
found
it
and
then
proceed
to
get
off
when
we
say
well.
Maybe
we
should
try
to
find
who
that
goes
to,
but
if
we
don't
have
that
kind
of
lawful
reason
to
engage,
and
if
we
don't
ask
those
questions,
the
person
may
very
well
leave
and
if
we
have
no
way
of
determining
whether
or
not
the
bicycle
has
been
reported
stolen,
we
also
have
no
way
of
preventing
that
person
from
leaving
with
the
bicycle.
So
a
registration
system
is
going
to
facilitate
a
return
of
bicycles.
C
At
times
it's
not
going
to
help
with
arrest
the
the
mere
possession
of
a
stolen
bicycle
in
burlington
is
not
enough
to
arrest
it
is.
It
is
at
worst
it
is
possession
of
stolen
property,
and
even
there
we
have
to
demonstrate
some
degree
of
proof
that
the
person
knew
that
it
was
stolen
property.
Much
less.
Are
we
going
to
be
able
to
actually
hold
the
person
accountable
for
having
stolen
it,
absent,
specific
and
and
articulable
proof
of
video
of
that
individual,
taking
it,
for
example,
or
catching
that
person
in
the
act?
C
Nevertheless,
what
we
really
want
to
do
is
be
able
to
return
these
things
because,
as
you
pointed
out,
commissioner,
they
are
very
important
to
people
for
some
people.
They
are
the
main
conveyance
that
that
folks
have
with
regard
to
another
question
that
was
raised
around
gun,
violence,
etc.
You
know
I
worked
on
gun
violence.
Excuse
me
on
gun,
buybacks
in
new
york,
every
practitioner
and
academic
acknowledges
that
gun
buybacks
are
are
smoke
and
mirrors.
They
are
not
useful
at
all.
With
regard
to
actually
driving
down
crime.
C
The
guns
that
are
collected
in
gun
buybacks
are
almost
always
guns
that
have
never
been
involved
in
crime,
because
the
simple
fact
that
the
people
who
commit
crimes
with
guns
don't
sell
them,
they
keep
them.
There
may
be
rare
occasions
where
a
parent
is
able
to
find
a
gun
and
and
bring
it
in,
but
that
sometimes
happens
already.
C
I
have
been
to,
for
example,
you
know
community
groups,
who've
called
me
where
they're
facilitating
for
a
parent
who
has
recovered
a
firearm
or
or
an
imitation
firearm
sometimes
and
wants
us
to
take
that
into
custody.
We
do
do
that
and
and
we're
happy
to
do
that
and
have
those
kinds
of
relationships,
but
you
know
with
regards
to
the
other
issues
when
it
comes
down
to
it.
G
Thank
you
chief.
Just
a
couple
of
follow-up
questions
on
the
car
theft.
Is
that,
generally
speaking,
because
the
keys
are
being
left
in
the
car
or
I'm
just
trying
to
think
in
terms
of
getting
information
out
to
folks.
So
that's
about
leaving
your
car
unlocked
and
keys
in
the
car.
Generally
speaking,.
C
G
C
Don't
believe
that
that
is
a
component
of
that
flyer,
the
you
know
a
recommendation
about
specific
kinds
of
locks
or
types.
We
obviously
can't
recommend
brands.
I
I
don't
think
that's
appropriate
for
a
government
entity,
but
I
do
think
that
that
we
want
people
to
have
more
robust
locks.
I
mean
I
certainly
would
recommend
to
people
that
they
do
some
solid
research
on
the
locks
that
they
get.
C
We
see
instances
of
people
clipping
and
or
cutting
locks,
and
so
people
should
be
doing
a
little
bit
of
of
investigation
into
what
they're
purchasing
and
how
they're
using
it,
but
the
biggest
issue
is
actually
locking
them
and
locking
them.
Well,
you
know
what
we
what
we
haven't
seen
much
of
here
is
report.
Well,
no
reports,
and
it
may
be
that
people
are
not
making
those
reports,
but
we
haven't
seen
reports
of
things
like
wheel
theft
or
seat
theft.
C
This
is
really
about
taking
the
whole
bike,
and
so
therefore,
you
know
locking
up
need
not
be
a
really
elaborate
procedure
where
you
try
to
wind
a
chain
through
every
single
part
of
the
bicycle,
against
whatever
thing
you're
locking
it
to
I
mean
it's,
the
frame
lock
the
frame,
put
it
there
and
and
make
sure
that
it
is
a
lock,
that's
robust
and
strong,
but
what
we
really
do
need
is.
We
need
serial
numbers
for
these
bikes.
We
need
people
to
register
these
bikes
in
ways
that
allow
us
to
identify
them.
C
When
we
come
into
contact
with
them,
there
were
hundreds
and
possibly
you
know
more
than
hundreds
of
bikes
and
or
bike
pieces
at
sears
lane.
We
have
run
into
encampments
in
the
intervale
that
have
had
you
know
just
a
myriad
of
bicycles
and
bicycle
parts,
and
when
we
go
through
them,
we
very
rarely
find
any
that
we
can
actually
return,
including
some
that
are
visually
expensive
models.
But
having
a
stronger
set
of
information
about
that
is,
is
something
that
this
flyer
encourages,
and
hopefully
it
will
help
make
a
difference.
F
Have
members
of
the
commission
look
at
it
to
see
if
there's,
maybe
something
we
could
suggest
that
could
be
added
to
be
more
effective
or
just
say,
hey
yeah.
This
looks
great
if
we
could
have
a
preview
of
that.
That
would
be
greatly
appreciated
with
regards
to
registering
bicycles.
Would
this
be
handled
through
city
hall.
C
F
C
We
used
to
have
a
process
by
which
people
could
come
and
register
their
bike
with
our
desk
officer.
That
was
an
officer
who
was
assigned
to
be
a
face
for
the
department
for
the
public
and
the
public
would
come
into
the
building
and
could
bring
a
bike
with
them
and
register
it
there
and
then
that's
not
something.
We've
had
for
some
time.
Neither
the
process
nor
the
desk
officer.
F
Sure,
but
what
is
going
to
be
specifically,
this
new
process
that
we
want
the
community
to
follow?
Is
it
going
to
be?
Is?
Is
a
city
going
to
handle
it
like
by
someone
going
to
city
hall,
or
is
there
going
to
be
a
new
website
or
a
website
link
within
the
city's
website,
just
trying
to
have
an
understanding,
and
I
think,
a
lot
of
community
members
would
have
that
question
as
well.
C
F
I
would
like
the
city
to
to
talk
about
the
possibility
of
a
gun
buyback.
I
do
hear
what
you're
saying,
but
if
it
can
encourage
maybe
more,
I
I
hear
a
lot
of
talk
and
I
see
younger
individuals
involved
in
a
lot
of
these
incidents.
So
I'm
wondering
if
that
would
encourage
more
parents
to
to
get
more
involved.
F
It
may
be
of
a
benefit
to
us,
so
I
don't
want
us
to
be
too
quick
to
dismiss
that.
I
would
at
another
time
like
you
to
really
specify
this
small
number
of
people
and
also
with
regards
to
community
partners
and
the
age
of
a
lot
of
these
individuals.
You
know:
did
they
go
through
the
burlington
school
system?
What
is
the
burlington
school
system
doing
to
address
these
issues
with
students?
F
What
are
area
services
that
provide
services
to
elementary
middle
school
and
some
high
school
students?
What
are
they
doing
to
talk
to
students
about
this
it?
It
pains
me
to
think
that
we
have
to
wait
till
we
get
to
a
point
where
someone
has
to
be
incarcerated
right.
Why
is
that
the
only
and
and
final
solution?
F
What
are
we
doing
to
intervene
to
prevent
people
from
going
taking
a
particular
path,
not
that
this
is
something
that
the
police
department
would
be
actively
involved
in,
but
should
be
involved
in
communications
with
the
community
partners
that
are
engaging
with
this
age
group
and
younger.
So
I
really
would
like
to
hear
that
that's
part
of
the
conversation
and
that
just
has
been
missing
and
and
we're
saying
other
things
that
that
are
hurtful.
Thank
you
very
much.
C
The
implication
that
there
hasn't
been
intervention
is,
I
think,
unfair.
The
fact
is
that
the
majority,
the
strong,
strong
plurality,
if
not
a
strong
majority
of
these
individuals,
have
had
multiple
interventions.
They've
had
multiple
arrests,
multiple
instances
in
which
they
have
been
engaged
with
through
the
boys
and
girls
club
through
the
schools
through
the
sros,
and
there
have
been
many
many
opportunities
for
off-ramping
this
behavior.
F
What
what
specifically,
if
other
things,
aren't
working,
what
conversations
are
happening
to
to
look
at
new
ways
right?
If
some,
you
know,
I
work
in
a
job
where
I
have
to
explain
things
to
people
all
the
time,
and
sometimes
I
have
to
explain
the
exact
same
thing,
but
in
an
entirely
different
way
to
relate
to
the
particular
person
that
I
am
working
with.
F
F
We
need
to
engage
the
public
more
about
getting
ideas,
because
once
again,
when
we
get
to
the
point
of
where
in
incarceration
becomes
the
final
option,
that's
just
heartbreaking
to
me
and
it's
heartbreaking
to
a
lot
of
other
people,
and
I
think
it's
fair
to
say
that
that's
not
where
we
want
to
be
so.
You
know,
please
feel
free
to
refer
to
me,
people
that
you've
worked
with
or
people
that
are
working
with
these
kids.
I'd
be
happy
to
do
my
own
research
to
find
out
what
exactly
is
going
on.
F
I
mean,
I
know,
there's
an
issue
with
a
number
of
students
who
are
are
not
getting
through
high
school.
So
what
is
you
know,
they're
getting
their
ged,
but
it
would
be
more
beneficial
if
the
high
school
can
hold
them.
So
what
is
the
high
school
doing?
What
is
the
superintendent
doing?
Is
he
involved
in
looking
at
this
and
looking
at
other
ways
to
try
to
keep
some
of
these
students?
F
And
you
know
what
is
the
engagement
that
is,
that
is
happening
right,
that's
to
me
is
what's
not
visible,
and
that
to
me
is,
is
what's
not
really
being
talked
about
in
the
community,
and
what
we
need
to
know
is
is
happening
because,
given
everything
that's
going
on
nationally
and
in
vermont,
things
are
going
to
get
worse
before
they
get
better,
so
we
have
to
be
looking
at
different
solutions.
Thank
you.
G
C
Sure
so
my
expectation
is
that
we
will
not
see
a
repeat
of
it
in
that
scope
and
it
is
not
something
that
we
should
depend
upon
on
a
regular
basis,
but
the
rationale
for
it
was
this.
We
had
had
a
shooting.
On
thursday
night
we
had
another
shooting
on
friday
night
very,
very
early
saturday
morning
that
shooting
occurred
at
bar
closing
it
occurred.
There
was
a
cso
on
the
corner
of
church
and
maine.
The
shooting
happened
in
front
of
the
burn
gallery
on
main
street.
C
The
the
the
chain
of
events
that
we
believe
happened
right
now
was
that
there
was
an
altercation
of
some
sort
in
the
vicinity
of
a
of
a
restaurant
or
bar
in
the
like
somewhere
around
alibaba's.
There
two
individuals
walked
past
an
individual
involved
in
the
involved
in
the
I
think
I
said
csl,
but
I
meant
cso.
I'm
sorry.
There
was
a
cso
on
the
street
corner
of
church
in
maine,
two
individuals
walked
past
the
individual
who
was
involved
in
an
altercation.
They
made
a
comment
about
that.
C
C
Instead,
we
had
a
cso
unarmed
unsworn,
who
did
amazing
work,
encouraging
people
to
get
away
from
that
scene,
and
you
know
come
this
way.
Come
this
way,
get
away
as
gunfire
rang
out.
What
we
ended
up
with
was
a
request
to
the
vermont
state
police
for
additional
resources
in
order
to
handle
that
saturday
night
and
we
ended
up
with
10
vermont
state
troopers.
C
The
combination
of
those
troopers
and
the
resources
that
we
had
in
the
form
of
officers
available
to
us
was
less
than
we
normally
would
have
on
a
friday
or
saturday
night.
As
recently
as
four
years
ago,
it
was
great
to
have
those
ten
troopers.
I
am
grateful
to
them.
I'm
grateful
to
the
colonel
colonel
matt
birmingham
for
sending
those
troopers
to
us.
Those
troopers
were
pulled
out
on
short
notice
on
overtime.
C
Many
of
them
had
other
plans
that
weekend,
but
they
were
suddenly
being
sent
to
burlington
from
as
far
away
as
brattleboro.
It
is
not
reasonable
or
probable
to
expect
that
kind
of
outlay
on
the
behalf
of
the
the
city
of
burlington's,
from
the
state
and
from
vermont
state
police,
but
it
was
well
received
that
night
and
we
are
grateful
for
it.
F
F
F
My
apologies,
so
I'm
asking
were
they
so
there
were
groups
of
them
to
together
on
main
street,
I'm
trying
to
ascertain
were
there
more
than
those
set
of
cars
on
main
street.
So
if
there
were
10
troopers,
there
were
actually
10
cars
that
would
represent
that
there
would
be
cars
in
other
areas
and
exactly
what
areas
those
cars
were
in.
C
Well,
the
request
was
for
presence
and
the
vicinity
of
church
in
maine
for
bar
closing.
They
were
not
going
to
come
to
this
city
in
order
to
do
routine
patrol
the
vermont
state
police
will
not
augment
routine
patrol.
This
was
a
specialized
foot
post
for
a
specific
event
and
time
there
were
vehicles
at
a
variety
of
locations
in
that
downtown
core
somewhere
on.
F
C
Each
of
them
came,
they
don't
carpool,
okay,
so
they
had
10
vehicles
and
some
of
them
were
parked
on
st
paul.
Some
of
them
were
parked
on
winooski.
Some
of
them
were
parked
on
college.
Some
of
them
were
parked
on
main
street
and
the
officers
were
similarly
distributed.
There
was
a
core
group
at
the
intersection
of
church
in
maine.
That
is
where
the
majority
of
our
activity
occurs,
but
there
were
also
troopers
in
other
locations
and
troopers
were
roving
around
on
foot.
C
We
included
a
post
over
in
the
vicinity
of
the
simons,
because
we
had
multiple
gunfire
incidents
at
simon's
on
south
winooski
and
bank.
We
had
troopers
there
also
because
we've
had
multiple
gunfire
incidents
in
the
parking
garage
in
that
vicinity.
We
had
a
foot
patrol
that
was
moving
through.
I
myself
did
multiple
foot
patrols
with
the
captain
of
the
vermont
state
police.
Who
was
leading
this
detail.
F
That's
why
I
was
asking
right
now
sorry
to
interrupt
you
chief.
I
appreciate
that
detail
and
I
apologize
if
I
misspoke,
I
was
trying
to
get
a
clar
clarity
with
actually
how
many
vehicles
there
were
and
where
they
were
posted,
because
it
did
look
based
on
community
feedback
that
they
were
only
in
that
certain
area.
So
that's
what
I
wanted
clarification
of.
So
I
do
appreciate
you
giving
us
those
details.
Thank
you.
B
H
B
D
H
That
is
correct
and
I
I
would
like
to
see
us
do
something
around
de-escalation.
We
still
haven't
done.
That
was
on
the
agenda
earlier,
so
if
the
chief
could
organize
it
instead
of
a
day
as
which
we
had
talked
about
before
at
least
a
small
introduction
that
can
be
followed
up
by
something
else,
and
that
will
be
appropriate.
D
B
Meeting
yeah-
that's
not
problem.
I
can
give
a
mini
report
right
now
from
today
today,
which
is
we.
There
are
several
presentations.
This
from
a
variety
of
groups
are
from
around
the
area
and
then
I
believe
tomorrow
is
gonna,
be
more
of
a
q,
a
between
attendees
and
the
groups
that
are
presenting,
but
we'll
be
happy
to
give
a
more
detailed
report
for
next
meeting.
B
F
B
B
I
A
B
3
34.,
technically
I
don't
believe
we
have
the
sharon
butcher
conference
room
until
8
15.,
so
I
think
well,
there
was
gonna
be
a
period
of
time
where
the
commissioners
deliberate
over
over
the
execution
of
slate.
So
I
I
believe
we're
gonna
convene
now
and
then
at
8
15.
We
will
invite
the
chiefs
via
zoom
for
us,
so
I
guess
the
chiefs.
We
will
see
y'all
at
8
15..
I
believe
you
should
have
the
exact
the
executive
session
zoom
link
for
that
and
we'll
see.
B
Y'all
then
for
the
other
commissioners,
hang
tight
and
I'll
be
in
contact
and
for
everyone
that
joined
that
joined
in
for
the
public.
Thank
you
very
much.
Our
next
scheduled
monthly
meeting.
It
is
the
fourth
tuesday
of
september,
which
is
the
which
is
september
27th,
6
p.m.
That'll
be
hybrid
form
again
meeting
here
and
on
zoom.
Please
stay
keep
your
eyes
peeled
on
board
docs
when
we
announce
our
next
meeting.
Thank
you.
So
much
have
a
good
night.
Everybody.