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From YouTube: Burlington Development Review Board - 10/42022
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https://www.burlingtonvt.gov/sites/default/files/Agendas/2022%20100422%20Agenda_0.pdf
00:00:00 Call to Order/Agenda
00:00:32 Communications
00:00:45 Minutes
00:01:05 Consent Agenda - 98-100 N Willard St
00:03:35 Consent Agenda - 55-57 Howard St
00:06:05 Historic Preservation Training
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B
Tom
Visser
has
directed
The
Historic
preservation
program
since
1994.
he's
a
tenured
member
of
the
UVM
history
department
and
his
taught
courses
in
researching
historic
buildings,
architectural
conservation,
Building,
Technology
and
other
preservation
topics
at
the
University
of
Vermont.
Since
98
1985,
he
has
published
a
field
guide
to
New,
England,
Barns
and
farm
buildings
and
more
recently
porches
of
North
America,
and
he
has
published
in
such
journals
as
the
bulletin
of
the
association
for
preservation,
technology
preservation,
Education
and
Research,
and
the
New
England
quarterly.
B
You
may
remember
him.
Maybe
Brad
remembers
him
as
serving
on
the
design,
Advisory
Board
here
for
the
City
of
Burlington.
He
has
also
served
as
a
Vermont
District
environmental
commission
member
and
has
served
on
the
executive
committee
of
the
National
Council
for
preservation.
Education,
welcome,
Tom,.
G
G
Well,
I,
look
forward
to
chatting
with
you
all
as
and
it's
nice
to
see
some
familiar
faces
here
and
hey
once
again
to
be
part
of
these
important
conversations.
I
think
particularly
in
these.
In
these
times
where
well,
the
world
is,
is
always
changing
about
us
and
the
challenges
continue
and
it's
it's
especially
nice
to
see
some
fresh
faces
and
looking
at
should
always
say
some
fresh
approaches
and
to
some
of
the
preservation
issues
that
are
are
certainly
facing
us.
G
G
B
B
G
G
G
B
G
A
G
Or
less
historic
preservation
review,
okay!
Well,
what
I
thought
I
would
do
just
to
keep
it
simple.
Is
I
I'm,
looking
forward
to
some
conversation
here,
you
know
I'm,
not
as
as
always,
you
know,
particularly
over
the
years
of
what
was
in
the
classroom
or
or
or
sitting
in
in
City
Hall.
It's
always
the
conversations
that
are
are
important
and
I
don't
want
to
be.
G
Certainly
today,
as
we
look
at
the
broad
range
of
issues
with
regards
to
livability
and
so
on,
there's
this
tendency
to
look
at
this
idea
of
Integrity
somewhat
broader
and
I
know:
I,
don't
know
if
this
has
come
up
with
a
conv
in
the
conversation
or
not,
but
I
mean
it's
sort
of
say.
Okay,
do
those
need
to
be
the
original
collab
Birds
if
the
collaborates
are
replaced?
This
does
this
then
become
an
issue
or
is
that
okay,
what
do
we
mean
by
character?
How
much
breadth
is
there?
What
do
we
mean
by
Integrity?
G
How
much
breadth
do
we
have
so
there's
no
kind
of
you
know
hard
fast
rules
here,
but
it's
all
sort
of
within
context,
within
precedence
and
and
so
on.
Does
that
kind
of
fit
with
some
of
the
issues
that
have
come
up
so
far
with
your
group
and
certainly
Mary?
Have
there
been
discussions
of
Integrity
I'll?
Put
the
question
to
you.
G
You
know
and
I
could
start
I
could
start
right
out
with
a
certain
project
that
we
were
involved
in
and
what
was
the
year
2000
a
certain
chicken
bone
Cafe,
where
there
were
questions
about
the
Integrity
and
how
that
Integrity
been
lost,
and
indeed
by
Mary's
research.
She
was
able
to
demonstrate
that
that
historic
building
in
the
battery
King
Street
historic
district
was
very
much
intact
to
how
it
had
been
many
generations
before.
Although
there
was
that
chicken
on
the
roof
that
could
be
removed,
and
so
here
again
we
get.
G
Let's
face
it,
one
of
the
first
historic
districts
that
was
put
on
the
national
register
for
the
in
the
city
was
down
on
the
the
battery
King
Street
neighborhood,
and
that
came
in
direct
response
to
the
concerns
over
the
the
losses
to
the
community
after
the
the
urban
renewal
demolitions
in
in
the
city.
So
there's
a
long
history
here
of
of
being
aware
of
the
broad
patterns
of
History,
it
isn't
just
the
Mansions,
it's
also
the
tenements.
G
Another
goal,
of
course,
is
to
promote
the
Adaptive
reuse
of
historic
buildings,
and
I
mean
what
better
area
than
sort
of
the
Pine
Street
Arts
District.
If
you
want
that
really
demonstrates
how
buildings
can
be
adaptively,
reused
or
Church
Street
or
so
many
other
neighborhoods,
we're
so
fortunate
that
the
city
has
such
an
amazing
building
stock.
G
I
think
you
know
this
whole
area
I
mean
for
those
of
you
who
managed
to
make
it
down
to
this
year's
Art
Hop
I
mean
once
again
what
a
celebration
of
of
what
can
be
done
with
the
Adaptive
reuse
of
of
historic
buildings
in
the
city
and
to
serve
this
wide
variety
of
needs.
In
many
cases,
with
minimal
levels
of
intervention,
I
mean
the
old.
G
You
know,
Factory
that
you
know
made
made
maltek
cereal,
the
old
factory
that
made
maple
syrup
the
old
factory
that
made
brushes
I
mean
all
of
these.
Things
have
been
adapted
and
we
have
been
so
fortunate
that
we
have
them
so
under
the
whole
notion
here.
Of
of
of
of
the
regulations.
Is
this
sense
of
Eligibility
to
the
state
and
National
register
of
historic
places
and
for
Effective
purposes
the
state
Register
of
historic
places?
G
G
In
order
to
get
shall
we
say,
investment,
Federal
investment,
tax
credits
for
a
certified,
Rehabilitation
and
I
think
this
is
one
of
these
practical
areas
where
it's
important
for
the
city
to
be
aware
of
what
the
state
regulations
are
and
aware
of
what
the
natural
regulation
National
regulations
are
and
that's
sort
of
where
the
focus
of
of
this
conversation
is
going
today.
Yes,
it
is
a
city
who
sets
the
local
regulations.
Nevertheless,
to
avoid
conflicts
and
frustrations
on
the
part
of
property
owners.
G
Having
that
broad
awareness
is
is,
is
obviously
important,
so
for
the
state
and
National
register
the
general
starting
place
for
eligibility
is
that
the
building
is
50
years
or
older.
This
is
not
written
in
stone,
okay,
but
it
is
the
starting
place
now
what
that
means
is
you
know
here
we
are
in
the
year
2022
and
we
do
the
math,
and
you
know:
where
are
we
you
know
where?
Where
where
for
some
of
us
it
was,
it
doesn't
seem
that
long
ago
you
know
that
we're
we're
all
the
way
up
into
the
1970s.
G
Now,
for
what
is
technically
considered
to
be
potentially
eligible
for
listing
of
historic
buildings,
we
have
a
certain
cathedral
downtown,
which
of
course,
you
know
has
been
nationally
discussed.
I
got
an
email
this
morning
from
a
national
organization
called
dokomomo
discussing
the
issue,
that's
happening
as
we
speak
right
now
in
Burlington,
it's
national
news.
So
again,
this
understanding
of
the
preservation
of
the
recent
past
is
very
much
going
on
not
only
nationally
but
internationally.
G
G
Generally,
it
falls
into
this
area
that
we
talk
about
historic
buildings
from
the
recent
past
and
I.
Think
for
many
of
us
you
know
of
a
certain
generation.
Hey.
You
know
there
was
that
kind
of
intuitive
cut
off
that
historic
buildings
were
those
that
might
have
been
built.
You
know
when
our
grandparents
were
around
and
maybe
before
the
second
world
war
and
so
on.
G
But
here
we
are
looking
at
a
lot
of
buildings
that
were
constructed
after
the
second
world
war
moving
into
modernism
brutalism
and
these
styles
that
now
are
very
much
on
the
front
burner.
If
you
will,
with
regards
to
these
discussions,
for
historic
preservation,
can
I
just
can
I
just
check
in
with
everybody
does?
Does
this
resonate
somewhat
Brad
you've
got
a
smile
on
your
face.
G
G
D
G
Well,
that's
it!
You
know-
and
this
gets
very
I'm
glad
you
mentioned-
that
Brad,
because
this
gets
into
this
issue
of
Integrity,
okay
and
and
is
integrity
being
defined
as
what
it
was
originally
or
do.
We
also
include
those
incremental
changes
that
were
made
up
to
50
years
ago,
and,
and
it
depends
on
how
quote
unquote
ungainly
those
alterations
were.
This
is
where
it
gets
into
some
broad
discussions
about
the
historic
character,
okay,
and
would
that
addition
on
itself,
because
for
whatever
reason
not
be
considered
historic,
did
it
so
alter
the
appearance?
G
G
Yeah
I
mean
one
anecdote
that
I
share
with
my
students
is
early
in
my
career.
One
thing
that
I
noticed
when
doing
some
research
on
properties
included
in
historic
districts
was
that
I
looked
at
a
survey.
It
was
someplace
in
rural
Vermont
and
there
were
some
beautiful
houses
there,
and
some
of
the
houses
had
not
been
included
in
the
historic
district
and
they
looked
great
to
me,
I,
just
in
what
I
realized
we're.
G
Looking
at
some
of
the
fine
print
of
the
person
who
had
done
the
review
is
that
the
architectural
style
of
the
porches
didn't
match
the
architectural
style
of
the
house.
So
in
essence,
there
was
an
1880s
Queen,
Anne
style,
porch
on
an
1840s,
Greek,
Revival
style
building,
and
that
you
know
at
the
time-
and
this
was
in
the
1980s-
this
lack
of
Integrity.
This
alteration
that
you're
making
refer
came
up.
That
was
enough
so
that
when
it
came
up,
there
was
oh,
it
isn't
as
good
as
it
might
be,
and
it
had
not
been
included.
G
As
the
question
are,
is
there
information
here
that
can
be
useful
for
understanding
the
social
history
and
not
be
too
confined
by
the
congruity
with
specific
architectural
styles?
It's
almost
as
though
another
kind
of
thing
we
talk
about
in
class.
Sometimes
it's
almost
like.
You
know
one's
looking
at
whatever
it
is
a
Beagle,
a
beagle
with
a
a
poodle
tail
I
mean
you
know.
Is
it
a
mongrel?
Is
that
okay?
Are
we
going
to
eliminate
it
because
the
style
of
the
tail
doesn't
match
the
floppy
ears
on
the
head?
G
You
know
these
are
the
kind
of
things
that
often
do
come
up
in
this
conversation
about
integrity
and
congruency
and
I
guess.
My
point
here
is
that
these
discussions,
generally
over
the
past
20
years,
10
years,
are
moving
away
from
this
sense
that
to
be
eligible,
a
building
needs
to
comply
rather
tightly
with
a
specific
architectural
style.
Does
that
help
again?
It's
it's.
It's
a
broad
conversation.
That's
happening.
G
Okay,
so
next
a
building
or
site
is
deemed
to
possess
significance
and
illustrating
or
interpreting
the
heritage
of
the
city,
state
or
nation
in
history,
architecture,
archeology,
technology
and
culture,
because
one
or
more
of
the
following
conditions
are
present,
so
I
mean
immediately.
We've
got
we're
moving
in
about
five
directions:
I
think
the
operative
word
here
is
Heritage,
okay,
so,
and
this
kind
of
goes
beyond
just
you
always
say
the
written
history.
We
know
a
lot
about
the
Heritage.
We
know
a
lot
about
the
the
the
written
history
from
research.
G
You
know
how
about
the
city's
role
in
manufacturing
within
the
context
of
the
Vermont
history
or
even
the
National
History
as
a
lumber
importing
port,
and
what
about
some
of
those
maybe
run
down
shed
shack-like
buildings
that
actually
are
rather
important,
vernacular
expressions
of
something
that
was
important
at
a
certain
chapter
in
the
city's
history,
I'm
thinking,
particularly
about
some
of
those
buildings
associated
with
the
the
ferry
dock.
You
know
on
the
waterfront,
you
know
those
those
those
metal
sheds.
G
You
know,
you
know
we
we
we're
not
going
to
put
them
up
on
the
on
the
pedestal
of
an
architectural
style.
Nevertheless,
this
is
an
example
of
a
a
site,
and
these
could
be
buildings
that
do
have
a
story
to
tell-
and
at
least
it
should
be
acknowledged
when
these
kinds
of
reviews
are
being
done
so
one
or
more
of
the
following
conditions-
an
association
with
events
that
have
made
a
significant
contribution
to
Broad
patterns
of
History.
G
G
Do
you
see
where
I'm
going
with
the
problems
of
defining
an
event?
It
was
it
one
specific
incident.
Wasn't
when
Teddy
Roosevelt
came,
what
was
it
when
General
Lafayette
came
to
lay
the
Cornerstone
to
Old
Mill
I
mean
these
are
events
that
we
can
put
down
to
a
specific
point
in
time,
but
there
may
have
other.
G
There
may
have
been
other
things
that
were
happening,
particularly
when
we
look
broadly
at
the
population
and
we
move
away
from
the
stories
about
the
elite
and
the
privileged
to
looking
at
what
was
happening
with
people
in
day-to-day
life.
So
again,
this
is
one
of
these
areas
of
conversation
right
now.
G
These
buildings,
although
there
may
we
may
have
buildings
for
which
there
has
been
little
written
about
the
buildings
themselves,
may
be
Testaments
to
Broad
patterns
of
history
and
events,
I'm
thinking,
particularly
of
some
of
the
manufacturing
buildings,
and
so
on
that
we
have
in
the
city
so
again,
I'm
encouraging
you
all
to
think
broadly
I
know
I'm
making
something
that
seems
pretty
straightforward,
very,
very
Broad
and
potentially
not
not
confusing,
but
at
least
this
is
some
con.
What
I
hope
is
contemporary
perspective
on
these
issues.
G
G
So
another
example,
then,
is
the
embodiment
of
distinctive
characteristics,
of
a
type
period
or
method
of
construction,
or
result
a
representation
of
a
work
of
a
master
possession
of
high
artistic
values
or
representation
of
a
significant
or
distinguishable
entity
whose
components
May
lack
individual
distinction.
You
know
for
this
I
put
grass
mode
up,
I
mean
this
outstanding
example
of
a
early
Federal
style
building.
It
was
recognized
by
the
historic
American
buildings.
A
survey
by
Herbert,
Wheaton
Congdon
in
the
1930s
I
mean
who's
going.
G
To
argue
whether
or
not
it
is
historic,
it
is
one
of
the
first
properties
in
the
city
that
was
individually
placed
on
the
city
register
of
historic
places
because
of
its
architectural
significance.
So
I
think
you
know
this
is
an
example
that
certainly
fits
with
that,
shall
we
say
traditional
view
of
what's
historic
art
that
I
think
Brad
was
alluding
to,
even
though
it
has
also
had
some
changes.
You
know
the
Belvedere
on
the
roof
is
from
the
1850s,
not
from
1806
and
and
there
are
even
later
alterations
to
it.
G
G
G
I
came
across
this
example
of
a
house
on
North
North
Avenue,
where
I
mean
gosh
you,
if
you,
if
you
take
a
if,
if
you
look
at
a
photograph
of
that
house
from
50
years
ago,
virtually
nothing
has
changed
because
it
has
been
so
well
maintained.
It
still
has
the
slate
roof.
It
still
has
the
wooden
shingles
on
the
upper
story.
Yes
at
at
some
point,
the
front
porch
was
enclosed
and
that
has
been
there
for
for
Generations.
G
But
again
it's
just
this
very
high
level
of
Integrity.
This
is
what
where,
where
is
sort
of
one
of
those
criteria
that
could
be
considered,
and
this
may
be
an
example,
then
of
a
building
that
you
know
it's
an
American
Foursquare.
If
we
want
to
describe
it
from
a
style,
realistic
point
of
view,
it
doesn't
perhaps
go
up
to
that
level
of
quote-unquote
architectural
stylistic
significance.
The
grass
Mount
does,
but
it
certainly
stands
out
as
a
a
building
of
exceptionally
High
integrity.
G
So
again,
just
another
criteria
to
consider
there's
also
sort
of
the
last
one
here
is
a
metamorphous,
but
that
is
yielding
or
likely
to
yield
information
important
to
prehistory
and
so
on-
and
this
is
this
is
alluding
to
archeology
and
I
mean
I.
Certainly
you
know
I
know
there
have
been
a
number
of
issues
in
the
city
where
a
archaeological
sites
have
been
uncovered.
Sometimes
they
were.
It
was
a
surprise.
G
I
mean
I'm
thinking
about
some
of
the
excavations
when
North
Street
was
being
done
and
there
were
burials
from
the
war
of
1812..
You
know
associated
with
the
encampment
near
Battery
Park,
the
archeology
that
needed
to
be
done
in
in
order
to
meet
Federal
regulation
compliance
in
order
to
get
the
federal
funding
in
order
to
to
build
the
rotary
project
on
on
on
Shelburne
Street.
G
It's
this
physical
evidence
that
we
may
be
coming
across
that
can
be
so
insightful
and
again
when
projects
are
being
planned
to
ask
the
question,
especially
if
it
is,
shall
we
say,
disturbing,
undisturbed,
areas
or
or
areas
that
are
have
the
potential
to
yield.
The
question
is:
has
a
an
archaeological
study
been
done
yet?
Have
there
been
test
pits
done
yet?
What's
what's
the
store?
What's
what's
the
story
on
that?
G
A
A
We
have
to
be
careful
going
and
making
our
own
sort
of
independent
investigation
on
these
questions,
which
is
a
challenge,
I'm
curious,
so
I.
You
know
at
some
point,
I
think
you
may
get
to
it,
but
the
issue
we
confront
I
think
probably
the
most
is
demolition
by
neglect
on
historic
properties,
right
properties
that
have
not
been
maintained
and
how
the
historic
value
may
be
impacted
by
historic
neglect,
certainly
not
even
the
neglect
of
the
current
landowners,
I'm
curious
I,
don't
want
to
rush
you
but
I'm
curious
how
you
would
deal
with
that.
G
Yeah
no,
these.
These
are
two
absolutely
critical
comments
and
I'm
kind
of
trying
to
start
out
from
from
the
ground.
I
know:
we've
got
limited
time
here
and
I'm
glad
we're
sort
of
branching
into
these.
These
two
sort
of
critically
important,
Concepts
and
I.
Think
just
you
know
to
talk
about.
The
first
is
you
know
who
is
whose
responsibility
is
it
to
present
this
information
I
think
I
I
tend
to
come
back,
I
mean
because
I
was
an
act
250,
commissioner,
for
for
a
good
number
of
years.
G
It's
that
whole
question
of
who
has
the
burden?
Who
has
the
responsibility
for
providing
the
burden
of
proof
and
I?
Think
as
a
review
board,
we
ask
the
questions.
We
don't
have
to
do
the
research
ourselves,
but
you
know
if
there's
an
indication
that
there
may
be
some
history.
We
can
ask
the
question:
has
the
applicant
presented
sufficient
information
for
us
to
feel
comfortable
with
this?
We
ask
the
questions
they
need
to
provide
the
answers.
G
If
they
haven't
done
the
homework,
then
you
know
this
is
this
is
typically
a
situation
where
they
will
should
have
the
responsibility
to
either
do
the
work
themselves
or
to
bring
in
somebody
to
help
them
or
into
a
certain
degree.
You
know
touch
base
with
others
who
may
be
able
to
provide
that
information
right.
A
G
So
I
mean
it
could
be.
It
could
be
that
the
applicant
is
in
contact
with
the
state
historic
preservation
office,
so
maybe
they're
looking
up
to
see
whether
the
property
is
already
on
the
national
register
of
historic
places
within
one
of
the
historic
districts,
I
mean
that
information
may
be
out
there
or
maybe
I
just
want
to
say.
Okay,
have
you
looked
up
the
national
register
nomination
for
this
it's
online
or
whatever
and
and
thereby
I
mean
quite
literally
and
intentionally
kind
of
avoiding
getting
into
that
situation.
G
G
And
again,
that's
the
starting
place.
I
also
think
this
is
one
of
these
questions,
for
which
staff
can
be
very,
very
helpful.
Right.
Mary
I
mean
it's
it's
when
the
applications
are
reviewed.
If
there
seem
to
be
some,
shall
we
say
gaps
as
a
heads
up,
there
may
be
recommendations
to
look
I
I,
don't
want
to
tell
you
how
the
process
works
right
now,
but
I
think.
Typically,
these
are
these
areas,
and
maybe
maybe
it's
it's
it's
it's
it's
the
guidelines
or
or
whatever,
but
anyway,
I
hope.
G
I,
hope
that
you
know
addresses
that.
That
kind
of
concept
of
you
know
who's
responsibility.
It
is
the
other
point
here.
Is
you
know?
Yes,
a
demolition
by
neglect
and
I.
Think
I
mean
where
to
kind
of
to
cut
to
the
chase
on
that,
if
it
appears
as
though
those
conditions
are
moving
in
a
Direction
where
the
eligibility
for
inclusion
in
the
local
state
or
national
registers
is
going
to
be
compromised.
G
So
anything
that
is
being
done
intentionally
or
by
neglect
by
actually
not
doing
shall
we
stay
say.
Regular
standard
maintenance
in
essence
could
be
seen,
as
shall
we
say,
following
an
intent
to
sidestep
the
the
regulations.
Does
that
make?
Does
that
make
sense?
It's
it's
really
really
difficult
to
you
know
when
when
do
you
blow
the
whistle
and
and
what's
the
what's,
what's
what
initiates,
what
initiates
that
I
mean?
G
I,
just
you
know,
as
as
someone
who
is
sensitive
to
preservation,
hey
I
mean
I'll
fit,
you
know,
let's
face
it,
there
are
an
awful
lot
of
buildings,
not
a
lot.
There
are
some
buildings
around
the
city
where
you
know
we
we
see
it
and
you
know
whatever
the
cliche.
Is
you
know
if
it
if
it
smells
like
it
and
it
consistently?
You
know
the
weeds
are
growing
all
over.
Nobody
is
there.
We
see
the
graffiti
all
over.
It's
just
like
inviting
something
to
happen.
G
You
know
in
in
the
30
some
odd
years
that
that
that
I've
been
here
and
I
mean
so
many
of
you
too.
You
know
there
have
been
a
good
number
of
historic
buildings
that
have
been
lost
due
to
shall
we
say,
mysterious
fires
and
other
things
for
which
there
was
great
potential
or
whatever
I
mean.
This
is
a
risk,
so
I
think
it
is
that
kind
of
combination,
of
lack
of
Maintenance,
appearance
of
abandonment
and
and
and
also
just
sort
of
allowing
things
to
incrementally
happen.
The
broken
windows,
the
the
trash
I
mean
this.
G
G
Course,
of
course,
you
know
and
and
I
think
I
mean
where
it
gets
tricky
is
you
know?
Let's,
let's
say
you
know,
for
whatever
reasons
that
it
may
be
economic,
the
building
is
no
longer
being
used
for
its
purpose.
It
may
be
abandoned
it.
May
you
know
it
may
be
empty
and
I.
Think
again.
It
is
there's
sort
of
this
Balancing
Act,
where
the
question
is
well.
If
that,
if
that
hole
in
the
roof
had
been
fixed,
you
know
when
it
first
happened.
G
Would
there
still
be
a
a
you
know
the
potential
for
a
dwelling
unit
here,
or
was
it
just
allowed
to
deteriorate
to
the
point
where
for
Life,
Safety
and
and
everything
else,
demolition
is
the
in
essence,
the
only
feasible
option
so
I
know
yes,
this
is
this.
Is
one
of
these
other
areas
where
yeah
it's
it's
a
judgment,
call
and
that's
why
you're
there?
That's?
Why
that's?
Why
you're?
You
know
to
make
those
calls.
It's.
F
G
Oh
absolutely
I
mean
I,
think
I
think
in
today's
Concept
in
today's
world
of
what's
being
discussed
so
so
broadly,
is
you
know
the
whole
potential
for
accessory
dwelling
units
happening
in
these
outbuildings
that
previously
under
zoning
were
were,
were
you
know
not
being
used,
shall
we
say
to
their
potential,
particularly
for
housing
and
so
I,
I
think
being
sensitive
to
the
potential
for
adaptive.
Reuse
I
mean
we.
G
We
had
a
wonderful
tour
last
a
week
with
some
of
the
you
know:
planning
and
zoning
department
staff
looking
at
the
missing
middle
opportunities
in
in
the
city
and
AARP
organized
this
tour
and
I
mean
there's
so
much
as
I
say.
You
know
potential
that
is
suddenly
being
recognized
for
using
some
of
these
underutilized
outbuildings
that
at
least
keeping
that
open
as
an
option
right
now
it
it
there's.
G
There's
there's
certainly
an
incentive
to
do
that
that
that's
not
a
fit
with
some
of
the
conversations
you've
been
having
on
that
I
mean
you're
you're
there.
Basically
too
shall
we
say,
enforce
the
regulations
but
I.
Certainly
there
are
there.
Is
this
ongoing
conversation
of
how
these
regulations
may
be
modified,
particularly
under
zoning,
in
order
to
be
broader
in
the
applicability
of
of
increasing
density
and
doing
it
in
a
way
that
is
respectful
to
to
what's
there
already.
F
I
mean
I
feel
like
the
problem
is
most
of
these
come
before
us
when
it
it's
way
too
late,
yeah
and
then
that's
just
like
the
nature
of
of
what
our
board
does
and
and
when
things
come
before
us
and
I
think
there
might
be
some
other
changes.
We
could
consider
to
encourage
adaptive,
reuse
of
accessory
buildings,
in
particular
like
around
the
corner.
For
me,
there's
a
beautiful
Carriage
Barn,
that's
obviously
vacant
and
Abandoned,
and
it
is
behind
a
large
Multiplex
historic
building
as
well.
G
I
mean
certainly
I
mean
another
part
of
that
I'm.
Getting
some
sunset
here,
part
of
that,
maybe
also
in
some
cases,
doing
whatever
can
be
done
to
let
Property
Owners,
you
know
know
about
incentives.
There
are,
you
know,
certainly
Federal
investment
tax
credit
incentives.
If
the
property
is
is
included
in
a
historic
district,
National
Historic
District
as
a
contributing
resource.
G
G
There
are
generous
tax
incentives
to
encourage
that
kind
of
work,
so
I
think
I
mean
this
is
sort
of
one
of
those,
those
areas
where,
where
we're
seeing
we're
seeing
this
happening,
you
know
around
the
country
and
I
think,
particularly
in
these
times,
where
we're
sort
of
looking
at
incremental
steps
that
can
be
taken
to
provide
more
housing.
That
is
in
keeping
with
the
character
this
there
may
be
opportunities
there.
G
I
know
I'm
thinking
you
know
particularly
I
mean
I
haven't
done
an
inventory
lately,
but
they're
you
know
intuitively.
There
seemed
to
be
a
lot
in
the
Hill
section
right
as
as
well
as
as
in
areas
of
the
of
the
old
North
End
of
the
secondary
back
back
buildings
in
many
of
the
primary
residents
residential
buildings
now
are
are
have
been
divided
up
into
Apartments.
There's
they're
Big
Lots
they're.
You
know
there
may
be
opportunities
that,
especially
with
changes
in
the
zoning
May.
B
G
G
B
First
Project
tonight
was
the
inaugural
exercise
of
our
historic
preservation
bonus
which
allowed
density
in
excess
of
limits
defined
by
the
ordinance.
So
for
some
of
these
bigger
houses
that
are
in,
say
the
RL
zoning
District,
you
may
now
add
as
many
residential
units
as
you
can
fit
in
there
you're,
not
we're
not
using
density
limitations,
anymore
and
I.
Think
that's
going
to
be
a
big
carrot
towards
more
housing.
G
It's
again
I
mean
this
I
mean
it's
wonderful.
To
hear
I
mean
these
are
things
that
are
happening
you're
doing
right
in
real
time,
and
it's
and
it's
addressing
the
the
these
critical
social
needs
that
were
we're
all
facing
every
day.
I
mean
we're
all
aware
of
so
again.
How
can
we
in
this,
you
know,
facilitate
this
and
kind
of
move
ahead,
so
it's
it
I
mean
it's
very
much
a
a
topic.
G
It's
a
topic,
even
even
our
graduate
students
in
the
historic
preservation
program
right
now
are
very
excited:
they're,
taking
on
a
project
looking
at
the
missing
middle
housing
in
in
Burlington
and
they're,
doing
field
research
looking
at
examples
to
get
a
better
understanding
of
this
kind
of
concept
that
until
right
now
was
not
perhaps
well
understood
and
maybe
kind
of
ignored
for
a
wide
variety
of
of
of
reasons.
So
again,
we're
we're
quite
contemporary
with
the
these
actions
that
are
being
taken,
which
is
wonderful.
G
C
G
A
G
You
know
I
immediately
one
thing
that
starts
out,
and
this
perhaps
is
not
your-
shall
we
say
responsibility,
but
it
is.
It
is
certainly
how
many
communities,
States
and
others
are
are
dealing
with.
This
is
through,
what's
usually
called
advocacy,
I
mean
we've
got
a
we've,
got
a
non-profit
organization
preservation
Burlington
that
does
advocacy
it's
about
education,
it's
about
engagement
and
I
and
I
think
you
know.
G
Certainly
over
the
years
I
mean
one
thing
that
comes
to
mind
are
some
of
the
the
Publications
that
the
the
the
the
the
city
planning
and
zoning
office
did
sometimes
with
Federal
funding
coming
through
the
the
state
that
are,
you
know,
projects
that
help
people
recognize
what's
what's
out
there,
whether
it's
it's
a
flyer,
whether
it's
online,
whether
it's
activities,
I
I,
think
this
kind
of
shall
we
say
engaging
education
is
is
one
way
to
do
this.
Certainly
if
there
are
case
studies,
it's
it's
engaging.
G
You
know
with
the
Press.
If
you
will
touting
the
success
stories.
I
think
all
all
of
these
things,
you
know
really
have
have
the
potential
to
plant
some
seeds
of
of
of
of
ideas.
I.
Just
think
of
you
know
some
of
the
projects
that
I've
seen
over
the
years
here
in
Burlington
of
a
really
really
decrepit
buildings
that
have
been
saved
that
have
been
transformed,
and
you
know,
hey
I'm,
thinking
of
a
certain
admissions
Welcome
Center
at
the
University
of
of
Vermont.
G
A
I
know
I
mean
well,
we
we
do
make
recommendations
on
the
zoning
changes
on
how
we
might
want
to
see
amendments
to
zoning
regulations.
We
have
someone
who's
on
the
ordinance
committee
and
it
I
think
are
often
asked
to
suggest
changes
to
things
that
aren't
working
for
us.
So
you
know
how
to
incentivize
people
to
maintain
historic
properties
so
that
we
don't
get
demolition
by
neglect.
Cases
when
they
are
too
late
is
something
that
I
think
we've
all
talked
about.
G
Good
good
I
mean
you
know,
I
come
back
to
and
what
you
just
said.
Having
these
conversations,
it's
almost
90
seems
like
it's
almost
90
percent
of
it
I
mean
on
the
other
side
of
the
coin.
Hey
I
know
I've
been
in
the
in
you
know:
seats
like
yours.
It's
also
listening
to
the
complaints,
whether
it's
complaints
that
is
coming
into
staff
or
complaints
that
are
being
expressed
in
the
in
the
meetings
that
those
who
are
experiencing
frustration.
G
What's
behind
that
frustration,
what
about
the
process
perhaps
could
move
more
more
more
more
smoothly,
whether
it's
I
mean
even
I
mean
coming
up.
You
know,
I'm,
just
reflecting
a
little
bit
on
a
project
that
Mary
and
I
were
involved
with,
with
the
Net
Zero
initiatives
and
historic
preservation
for
the
city,
I
mean
what
the
one
of
the
starting
places
there
was
try
to
map
out
the
the
the
the
review
process
to
come
up
with
a
flowchart
for
for
for
potential
applicants
and
I
know.
G
D
I
I
just
want
to
make
a
comment
Tom
that
so
those
projects
you
mentioned
up
on
South
Prospect
Street
and
you
compare
those
to
similar
kinds
of
are
not
really
similar,
but
small,
little
barns
back
buildings
and
things
like
that
that
are
in
the
Old
North
End,
the
old
North
End,
doesn't
have
the
Deep
Pockets.
That
UVM
has
I'm.
D
That's
part
of
the
issue
that
you
know
economic
viability.
You
know
you
know
task
for
setting
a
very
low
bar,
but
there
is
some
reality
to
that
too,
that
there
are
buildings
that
are
just
that
cost
to
rehabilitate
them
is
not
economically.
The
balance
sheet
doesn't
work
it.
It
works
for
UVM,
because
they're
not
doing
the
same
balance
sheet
and
I.
Don't
know
that
there's
really
resources
available
to
to
really
do
that,
so
those
buildings
stay
empty
because
there
really
isn't
a
way
to
rehabilitate
them.
Gracefully,
no.
G
I
I
I
hear
you
I
I,
almost
I
almost
committed
to
myself
when
I
mentioned
those
because
I
know
full
well
exactly
what
you're
talking
about
and
I
know
those
those
are
deep
pocket
projects
on
a
lot.
You
know
so
I
hear
you
I
I
mean
I
I,
hear
you
when
I
look
around
my
own
neighborhoods,
you
know
I,
look
at
the
abandoned
garages,
I
look
at
the
other
buildings
and
yeah.
You
know
when
that
Foundation
needs
to
be
replaced
and
the
roof
is
leaking
and
the
Sills
are
rotten
wow.
It
adds
up.
A
G
You
know
no
exactly
I
mean
this.
This,
then,
is
where
we,
you
know
in
essence,
what
becomes
significant
it
comes
back
to
this.
This
concept
of
significance
and
I
mean
I
mean
let's
face
it.
If
we're
using
a
a
1972
role.
In
essence,
you
know
a
huge
amount
of
the
new
North
End
in
essence,
potentially
could
be
eligible
for
listing
on
the
state
of
national
register.
G
I,
don't
know
that
surveys
have
been
done
on
it,
I'm
thinking
about
some
of
even
some
of
the
neighborhoods
in
the
South
End
that
have
not
been
recognized
as
such
and
and
I.
Think
again,
the
the
sort
of
this
is
this
is
one
of
these
shall
we
say
the
greatest
challenges
in
how
we
Define
what
is
significance
and
how
are
properties
relating
to
quote-unquote
Broad
patterns
of
History?
G
It's
a
conversation.
That's
have
that
that's
going
on
nationally
and
so
I
don't
have
an
easy
answer
for
you,
I
think.
Perhaps
you
know
just
trying
to
keep
up
with
with
how
it's
going.
You
know,
certainly
with
regards
to
the
more
recent
past
those
buildings
that
are
being
recognized,
perhaps
due
to
their
architectural
statement.
The
Prestige
of
the
architectural
firm,
some
of
their
important
Community,
uses
their
integrity.
G
How
can
we
apply
these
standards?
Shall
we
say
in
1950s,
Suburban
neighborhoods
I
mean
okay,
this
this
is
kind
of
up
to
the
city
to
decide
to
be
quite
blunt,
and
some
cities
are
looking
at
these
as
contributing
resources.
Some
are
are,
perhaps
being
you
know
less
focused
on
on
that.
Does
this
mean
that,
because
it's
a
1957
ranch
house
that
hasn't
been
altered,
does
that
mean
it
cannot
have
a
a
new
garage
or
it
can't
have
a
second
Story
I
mean
again.
G
This
is
part
of
the
discussion
that
has
to
happen
locally
and
in
those
kind
of
cases.
Maybe
we
don't
want
to
necessarily
kind
of
immediately
jump
to
the
standards
that
have
been
applied
nationally
for
properties
that
are
receiving
tax
credits
or
or
or
so
on,
but
does
that
help
it
does
it?
Does
it
does
again
your
it
I?
Think
it's
it's.
G
The
analogy
here
is
I
mean
to
a
certain
degree.
You
know
you're
you're
at
the
wheel
of
this
windy
road.
It's
it's
nice
to
know
where
the
ditches
are.
But
here
again
you
know
you
get
to
choose
the
route
to
a
certain
degree,
so
I
think
that's
what
I'm
really
trying
to
explore
tonight
or
you
know
where
some
of
these
ditches
are.
That,
may
you
know
lead
to
whatever
feedback
red
flags
concerns,
anxieties,
bad
press,
all
of
those
sorts
of
things
sure.
G
D
G
G
G
Does
that
mean
that
every
slate
roof
has
to
be
maintained?
Well,
where
do
we
get
to
that?
That
sort
of
threshold
of
where
it
doesn't
make
economic
sense
to
maintain
it
and
slate
the
rule
of
thumb
that
we
use
I,
don't
know
if
it's
ever
been
kind
of
it
was
written
down,
but
as
a
board.
The
rule
of
thumb
that
we
use
has
kind
of
been
recognized
by
the
Slate
roofers
trade
is,
if
more
than
a
third
of
the
slates
are
deteriorated,
then
it
is
no
longer
repairable.
G
I
think
another
conversation
that
we've
certainly
been
having
lately,
especially
looking
at
you,
know,
Net
Zero
and
carbon
emissions,
and
so
on
is
that
you
know
okay,
what
about
Metal
rows
that
may
be
far
less.
You
know
producing
carbon
emissions
that
may
be
lasting
a
century
as
opposed
to
asphalt.
Shingles.
F
I
have
this
conversation
has
made
me
think
of
something
else
that
I
have
wondered
in
the
city
about
Chimneys,
in
historic
preservation,
where
chimneys
are
functionally
part
of
the
Mechanicals
of
the
original
house.
So
especially
with
the
50-year
timeline.
Are
we
getting
to
a
point
where
PVC
pipes
coming
out
of
the
side
of
the
house
are
historical
preservation?
G
To
to
use
a
bit
of
jargon,
sort
of
the
the
measure
that
that
I
would
would
use
to
to
consider
this.
Let
me
move
around
I'm,
getting
some
some
Sunset
I,
don't
know
if
it
matters
is
to
ask
the
question
whether
or
not
the
chimney
is
a
significant
historic
character.
Defining
feature.
I
know
that's
a
mouthful,
but
this
is
a
concept
that
we
use.
G
The
state
preservation
office
said
okay
for
mitigation,
put
back
all
of
those
chimneys
because
those
were
significant
to
not
only
understanding
its
its
age,
but
also
those
pairs
of
chimneys,
as
they
were,
let
out
laid
out
provided
the
evidence
of
how
that
used
to
be
three
separate
buildings
that
were
connected.
So
there
was
all
of
that
sort
of
history
that
was
represented
by
the
chimneys,
even
though
right
now,
they're,
dummies,
okay,
so
again,
I
would
use
that
concept
to
ask.
Is
it
a
significant
historic
character
defining
feature?
G
There
would
obviously
be
an
awful
lot
more
latitude
than
it
is,
shall
we
say
a
chimney
on
an
end
wall
parapet
of
some
of
those
wonderful
examples
that
we
have.
You
know
from
the
from
the
from
the
federal
style
or
going
into
the
1830s
OR
1840s
around
the
city,
where
it
really
was.
What
was
something
special
does
that?
Does
that
help
on
that?
It's
going
to
use
that
as
a
ruler
to
ask
the
question:
is
it
a
significant
historic
character,
defining
feature
yeah
that
does.
A
G
Well,
it's
been
my
pleasure
to
chat
with
you
on
this
and
I
hope.
It's
helpful
I'm
here
as
a
resource-
and
you
know
just
just
let
us
know
up
here
at
the
University
at
the
historic
preservation
program.
If,
if,
if
we
can
help
I,
don't
want
to
step
on
any
toes
and
I
I,
you
know
I
I
appreciate
where
you
are
I
mean
having
having
been
in
some
of
those
those
seats
over
the
years.
It's
you
know
it's
your
judgment.
This
is
this
is
what's
important.