►
From YouTube: Moments with Melinda: Interview with Robert Costanza
Description
From Melinda Moulton:
Before joining University College London, Robert was a professor at the Crawford School of Public Policy at The Australian National University. In 2013 he was a professor at Portland State University in Oregon from 2010 to 2012. Costanza was the Gund Professor of Ecological Economics and Director of the Gund Institute for Ecological Economics at the University of Vermont. Prior to moving to Vermont in August 2002, Costanza was Director of the University of Maryland Institute for Ecological Economics, and a professor at University of Maryland's Center for Estuarine and Environmental Science, at Chesapeake Biological Lab on Solomons Island MD.
He is co-founder and past-president of the International Society for Ecological Economics and he was founding Chief Editor of the society's journal, Ecological Economics from its inception in 1989, until 2002. Costanza is the founding editor-in-chief of Solutions - a popular hybrid academic journal/magazine. He currently serves on the editorial board of eight other international academic journals and is past president of the International Society for Ecosystem Health. He is a senior fellow at the Stockholm Resilience Centre, Stockholm, Sweden; Affiliate Fellow at the Gund Institute for Environment at the University of Vermont; and a co-chair of the Ecosystem Services Partnership.
6/29/2023
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A
B
A
B
Yeah,
yes,
you
are
so
thank
you
for
being
on
my
show.
Let
me
tell
my
viewers
just
a
little
bit
about
you,
because
there
is
so
much.
But
let
me
share
with
my
viewers.
Robert
Costanza
is
Professor
of
ecological
economics
at
The
Institute
for
Global
Prosperity
at
University,
College
London.
He
is
a
fellow
in
the
Academy
of
social
sciences
in
Australia
and
the
Royal
Society
of
Arts
in
the
UK.
B
He
is
an
overseas
expert
in
the
Chinese
Academy
of
Science
and
currently
a
senior
fellow
at
the
Stockholm
resilience
Center
in
Stockholm
Sweden,
an
affiliate
fellow
at
the
Gund
Institute
at
the
University
of
Vermont
and
at
the
Tau
master
of
ecological
economics
at
the
tower
Masters
Academy
in
Shanghai
China
and
is
an
honorary
professor
at
Australian.
National
University.
B
B
Thank
you,
so
I'm
going
to
start
with
my
viewers
to
understand
that
you
you,
it
is
written
that
you
are
a
global
Pioneer
of
transdisciplinary
research
at
the
complex
intersection
of
dynamic
human,
economic
and
social
systems
and
stressed
ecosystems
that
is
informing
new
models
of
in
Pathways
to
sustainable
Prosperity.
Now,
in
layman's
terms,
can
you
explain
to
my
viewers,
your
life's
journey
through
your
work
and
what
it
is
you
hope
to
change
in
the
human
dynamic
to
save
our
species?
Yeah.
A
Okay,
I'll
try.
Maybe
I'll
go
back
to
my
my
PhD
work,
which
was
in
systems,
ecology,
I
studied
with
HD
Odom
at
the
University
of
Florida,
and
so
the
idea
there
was
to
look
at
the
whole
system,
not
just
the
pieces,
but
how
all
the
pieces
you
know
fit
together
and
how
they
behave.
You
know
over
time.
What's
the
dynamic
interactions
among
among
all
of
those
systems,
I
think
we
don't.
A
We
don't
spend
enough
time
thinking
in
that
way
about
our
complex
World
and
that
that
led
to
you
know
trying
to
incorporate
economics
and
how
the
economic
system
functions.
You
know
into
the
into
the
whole
picture.
So
it's
not
just
the
market,
it's
really
the
economy,
embedded
within
Society,
embedded
within
the
rest
of
Nature
and
and
understanding
that
it's
the
rest
of
nature
we're
part
of
nature
as
well.
It's
not
humans
in
nature.
A
It's
it's
us
and,
and
all
the
other
parts
of
the
system
so
I
think
that's
a
you
know
a
needed
perspective
if
we're
really
going
to
create
a
sustainable
and
desirable
future,
which
I
think
is
what
we're
we're
all
trying
to
do.
We
want
to
create
a
better
world
where,
where
you
know,
we
can
provide
well-being,
sustainable
well-being
for
for
at
least
the
majority,
if
not
all
the
the
people
on
the
planet.
A
So
that's
been
my
my
quest,
I
guess
over
over
that
time
and,
as
you
know,
I
spent
I
spent
eight
years
there
at
the
University
of
Vermont
and
we
started
the
empty
Gunn
Institute
there
back
in
2002
as
a
as
a
way
to
pursue
that
that
that
broader
agenda
and
the
whole
field
of
ecological
economics
is
really
about
about
that.
You
know
how
do
we,
how
do
we
understand
the
whole
system?
It's
a
transdisciplinary
approach
and
I.
A
A
It's
all
connected,
that
is
the
basic
principle
of
Economics,
but
I
think
it
needs
to
be
taken
much
more
seriously,
particularly
now
in
the
in
the
anthropocene
Epic.
You
know
that
we're
currently
in
where
we
know
that
our
impacts
on
our
ecological
life
support
system
and
our
impacts
on
our
social
life
support
system
are
also
being
being
threatened.
You
know
so
we're
we're
facing
many
crises
going
forward
and
we
we
are
approaching
several
tipping
points
both
on
the
biophysical
side,
but
also,
hopefully
on
the
on
the
social
side.
A
B
Well,
we're
going
to
get
into
that
in
my
interview,
because
I
unfortunately
I
may
not
be
as
optimistic
as
you
are
now.
We
both
are
the
same
age
we
were
born
in
the
same
year.
We
were
actually
born
in
the
same
state,
but
that's
about
all
we
have
in
common,
but
we
did
work
together
a
little
bit
at
the
Gund
Institute
and
I'll
get
into
that
in
a
little
later
on
the
local
economy.
B
Now
you
have
co-authored
over
600
scientific
papers
and
28
books,
and
your
work
has
been
cited
more
than
130
000
times
in
Google.
Scholar
you've
been
interviewed
more
than
350
times,
and
here
I
am
your
350
First
of
which
I'm
very
very
honored
to
to
have
the
opportunity
to
spend
some
time
with
you
Bob
now,
I
want
to
focus
on
who
you
are
I
mean
what
what
who
is
Bob
Costanza
and
what
brought
you
to
your
extraordinary
life's
work,
bringing
together
the
power
of
Economics
to
support
the
future
of
our
species.
A
Okay,
well,
I
I
was
born
in
a
little
town.
I
was
born
in
Pittsburgh,
actually
in
Pennsylvania
at
Allegheny,
General
Hospital,
but
the
town
I
spent,
my
first
seven
years
in
was
was
kind
of
an
Infamous
little
town
in
Pennsylvania
called
dinora
Pennsylvania
and
two
years
before,
I
was
born.
They
had
this
smog
incident
where
there
was
a
temperature
inversion
in
this.
You
know
a
little
River
Valley
Steel
Mill
Town,
and
they
had
a
temperature
inversion
that
lasted
for
a
week
and
the
steel
mill
just
kept
pumping
stuff.
A
A
It
was
one
of
the
first
sort
of
fatal
air
pollution
incidents
in
the
world,
and
that
was
followed
by
similar
incidents
in
in
London
in
1952,
in
in
La,
the
famous
LA,
Smog
and
I
think
all
of
those
together
led
to
eventually
the
Clean,
Air
Act
and
the
creation
of
EPA
and
Etc
and
the
you
know
the
environmental
movement.
But
it
was
the
recognition
that
you
know
this.
This
sort
of
Rapid
progress
and
focus
on
industrial
production
and
growth
had
some
significant
side
effects.
Negative
side
effects
that
needed
to
be
addressed.
A
If
we
really
wanted
to
to,
you
know,
create
a
better
world.
So
another
result
of
that
incident
was
they
closed
down
the
steel
mill
eventually
and
might
bother
and
family,
and
we
all
moved
to
South
Florida,
where
the
air
was
cleaner
and
I
grew
up
mainly
in
the
in
South
Florida,
and
went
eventually
went
to
went
to
school
at
the
University
of
Florida
right.
A
A
B
A
B
A
B
A
Well
again,
I'll
go
back
to
my
my
PhD
days,
because
I
think
that
that
opened
my
eyes
to
how
these
things
were
all
connected
and
and
you
and
you
know
that
that
economics
does
control
a
lot
of
the
decision
making.
That
goes
on
at
many
different
scales,
my
PhD
research
had
to
do
with
land
use
changes
in
land
use
planning
and
what
happened
to
South
Florida,
you
know
historically
over
time
and
how
that
whole
sort
of
development
pattern
was
was
going
on
and
what
was
driving
it.
A
You
know
and
and
obviously
was
not
driving
it
in
a
direction
that
that
maximized,
the
quality
of
life,
where
the
where
the
population
was
driving
it
in
a
direction
that
maximized.
You
know
the
the
profits
of
the
of
developers
and
and
and
and
other
feedbacks
like
that.
So
you
know,
if
you
want
to
change
those
those
kinds
of
systems
that
you
have
to
understand,
you
know
how
how
they
work
and
where
the
leverage
points
are,
and
that
was
what
I've
been
trying
to
do
since
since
then.
That's.
B
A
A
To
be
well
I
think
I
think
like
like
I
was
getting
at
it's
all
part
of
this
larger
system
and
how
we
govern
ourselves
is
a
is
a
huge
you
know
controlling
Factor.
So
how
do
we
make?
How
do
we
make
decisions?
You
know,
as
as
groups
at
multiple
scales
you
know
from
from
families,
to
companies
to
to
countries
you
know
to
the
to
the
whole
planet,
so
the
process
of
decision
making
I
think
is
a
is
a
key
part
of
it
and
governance
governance
in
general.
A
You
know
and
I
think
I,
think
democracy
is
a
great
idea
and
we
ought
to
try
it.
So
how
do
we
actually
get
a
truly
Democratic
governance
system
because
I
think
currently
in
the
United
States
and
in
many
other
countries,
I
call
themselves
democracies
they're,
not
really.
Democracies,
I
mean
they're
plutocracies
and
various
versions
that
are
controlled
by
by
special
interests,
not
by
the
not
by
the,
not
by
the
will
of
the
of
the
people
and
I.
A
A
Vermont
I
think
has
some
interesting
examples.
You
know
the
Vermont
town
meeting
as
a
as
a
sort
of
direct
democracy.
Kind
of
kind
of
thing
is
one
that
is
one
example
that
we
could.
We
could
potentially
build
on,
but
but
I
think
the
yeah
we
we
need
to
do
something
quite
quite
different
and
more
Innovative,
with
our
with
our
governance,
institutions
and
I.
A
Think
people
are
beginning
to
realize
that
that
the
current
the
current
system
is
really
not
working,
is
not
leading
to
to
a
better
life
for
most
people,
and
that
is
a
huge
problem,
but
it's
also
an
opportunity.
You
know
that
that
you
need
those
sort
of
crises
in
order
to
to
to
make
the
kinds
of
changes
that
I
think
we're
we're
after
the
latest
book
I
published,
is,
is
titled
addicted
to
growth.
A
You
know
to
make
any
significant
behavioral
change,
we've
known
about
these
problems
for
for
decades,
and
we've
also
known
about
the
solutions
for
decades,
but
we
haven't
really
made
progress
because
we've
been,
you
know,
framing
those
Solutions
in
a
more
of
a
confrontational
way
in
a
way
that
doesn't
necessarily
lead
to
behavior
change.
So
I
think
that's
that's
our
challenge.
How
do
we?
How
do
we
really
understand
that
process?
Well
enough
to
begin
to
to
build
the
therapy
that
we
need
to
overcome
these?
The
lock-in?
B
It
also
comes
down
to
inequality
because
the
people
who
are
who
are
on
the
The
Bottom
Rung
of
our
of
our
economic
well-being,
don't
have
the
ability
to
think
about
things,
the
way
that
other
people
do,
and
even
with
the
town
hall
meetings
in
Vermont.
If
you
have
a
an
hourly
job
and
you
can't
take
a
Tuesday
off
to
go
to
town
meeting,
your
vote
isn't
counted
yeah.
So
no
I
think
is
a
Is
It
Anyway
go
ahead
on.
A
That
one,
no,
no
that's
that's
a
huge
issue
and
I
think
that's
that's
something
that
really
reduces
our
our
societal
well-being.
You
know
the
fact
that
we're
we're
destroying
our
social
capital
by
having
such
huge
gaps
and
and
income,
income,
inequality
and
I
think
that's,
that's
part
of
what
has
to
that
has
to
change
and-
and
it
certainly
can
change
I
mean
you
know,
since
at
the
end
of
World,
War
II
until
1980
or
so
we
were
reducing
income
inequality
in
the
U.S
and
in
most
other
countries.
You
know
we
were
we
had.
A
You
know
progressive
taxation,
we
had,
we
had
a
we're
building
a
the
welfare
state
and
it
was
only
after
the
sort
of
Reagan
Thatcher
neoliberal
changes
that
that
started
going
back
in
the
opposite
direction,
all
right,
so
it
it
leads.
It
means
that
we
do
know.
We
do
know
how
to
solve
the
problems,
but
it's
going
to
take
it's
going
to
take
a
different
political.
You
know,
agenda
and
I.
Think
that's
got
to
be
forced.
You
know,
by
a
by
a
large
Civil,
Society
movement.
Well,.
B
A
Movement
of
movements-
I
mean
it's
not
it's
going
to
take
the
coming
together
of
many
of
the
of
the
movements
that
are
that
are
out
there
today
for
climate,
Justice
and
social
justice
and
and
Etc.
You
know
we're
all
I
think
heading
in
the
right
in
the
same
direction,
but
are
not
really
coordinated.
There's
a
group
I'm
involved
with
called
the
well-being
economy.
Alliance.
That's
trying
to
do
just
that.
How
do
you
bring
all
of
these
movements
together
and
I?
A
Yeah
well,
I
think
one
of
the
key
things
is
to
First
recognize
that
we
have
to
change
our
fundamental
goals
for
for
economies
for
societies.
I
mean
part
of
the
part
of
the
problem.
Is
that
that
conventional
economics
and
and
politics
you
know,
is
focused
on
GDP
growth
as
being
the
solution
to
all
problems
you
know,
and
if
economy
stop
growing
in
GDP
terms,
then
you
know
it's
a
disaster
and
in
fact
we
know
that.
A
That's
that's
not
the
case
that,
in
fact,
GDP
growth
has
some
very
negative
side
effects
that
we've
been
able
to
to
document
and
measure
and
and
compare
with
with
GDP,
and
we
haven't
been
making
genuine
progress.
When
you
look
at
the
the
impacts
of
growing
income,
inequality
and
growing
environmental
damage,
you
know
that
that
sort
of
cancels
out
all
of
the
growth
in
in
GDP
income
and
GDP
growth
has
only
gone
to
a
very
small
fraction
of
the
population,
the
top
one
or
even
the
top
point
one
percent
of
the
population.
A
So
you
know
making
that
that
clear
that
we're
it's
not
Gap
growth,
that
we
need.
It's
really
Improvement
in
societal
well-being,
and
what
does
that
involve?
It
means
you
know,
a
more
equitable
distribution
of
wealth
and
income.
It
means
you
know
a
societal
floor,
you
know
Universal
basic
services
or
Universal
basic
income
so
that
no
one
should
be
left
behind.
It
means
you
know.
Staying
within
planetary
boundaries,
you
know
dealing
with
climate
change.
Climate
change
is
one
of
our
our
major
planetary
boundaries
that
we're
exceeding,
but
also
biodiversity,
laws
and
nitrogen
cycling.
A
B
So
you're
seeing
it
around
the
con
around
the
world,
because
you
are
a
worldly,
a
man
who
who
certainly
understands
other
countries
that
the
Socialist
societies
are
the
ones
that
are
caring
for
Humanity
I
mean
even
if
you
just
go
across
the
border
from
Vermont
into
Canada.
It's
very
different.
The
way
that.
A
A
B
A
She's
yeah,
yeah
and
well.
We
need
to
take
society
and
we
need
to
take
the
rest
of
nature
into
account.
So
I
think
it
could
be.
You
know,
Eco
egoism
as
well.
Our
whole
systemism
I,
like
this
I,
actually
like
the
Swedish
term
lagom,
which
means
just
enough
that
everybody
everybody
should
have
just
enough
not
too
much
not
too
little,
and
if
you
have
that
Philosophy
for
life
I
think
we
we'd
all
be
much
better
off
as
they
are,
as
they
are
in
Scandinavia
in
general.
A
A
A
Unless
we
can,
we
can
do
something
differently
and
I
think
we
have
certainly
have
the
tools
now
to
be
able
to
see
the
future
much
much
better
than
these
historical
societies
have
been
able
to,
and
we
can
also
see
the
you
know
the
possibilities
much
better
than
historical
societies
had
been
able
to.
So
whether
we
can
use
that
information
in
in
new
ways
to
prevent
the
collapse
and
to
make
a
smoother
transition
into
a
steady
state.
B
B
A
Not,
but
that's
not
a
reason
to
give
up
no
or
or
to
harp
on.
You
know
the
the
the
remaining
problems.
I
think
the
I
think
the
issue
is:
how
do
you?
How
do
you
make
progress
and
how
do
you?
How
do
we
overcome
the
barriers
that
were
that
we're
still
facing
right?
So
it's
you
know
it's
it's
easy
to
get
it's
easy
to
give
up.
Well,.
B
I
I
I
I
will
never
give
up
but
I
personally,
when
I'm
doing
lectures,
I
always
somewhat
apologize
for
the
fact
that
that
we
try,
we
did
try
and
somehow
somehow
we
didn't
do
enough,
and
here
we
are
where
we
are
today
as
a
species.
So
why
are
humans
so
reluctant
to
move
in
directions
that
are
in
their
best
interest
and
in
the
best
interest
for
the
children's
children?
It
really
does
come
down
to
economics,
and
so
often
it's
the
money
that
stands
in
the
way
of
progress.
Talk
to
us
about
that.
A
Well,
I
think
it's
more.
The
the
addiction
that
stands
in
the
way
of
progress
and
money
is
money
is
a
vehicle
you
know
for
for
for
motivating
that.
It's
you
know
it's
we
end
up
in
these
these
social
traps,
as
they're
called
and
situations
where
we
feel
like
we've
invested
so
much
in
the
current,
the
current
system
that
we
can't
that
we
can't
change
so
there's
some
really
interesting
games.
A
A
Well,
I
think
it's
it's
a
societal
problem
and
I
think
the
therapy
has
to
come
from
at
least
parts
of
of
society
and
I
think
for
the
situation
we're
in
now
it's
going
to
take
like
I,
said
a
movement
of
movements.
It's
going
to
take.
You
know
not
just
the
younger
generation
but
the
but
the
whole
population
that
that
recognizes
that
we
can't
go
on
the
way
we
are.
But
what's
the
missing
element
now
I
think
is
a
clear,
shared
vision
of
the
kind
of
world
that
we're
trying
to
create.
A
You
know
people,
don't
don't
have
that
shared
Vision.
They
don't
see
what's
possible
and
I.
Think
that's
what
we
that's.
What
one
thing
I've
been
trying
to
to
produce?
How
do
you?
How
do
you
convey
that
we
could
have
a
much
better
world
where
you
know
inequality
was
much
lower
where
we're
dealing
with
climate
change,
we're
solving
all
these
problems.
We've
achieved
all
of
the
sdgs
and
everyone's
going
to
be
better
off
you're,
not
going
to
be
worse
off
than
they
are
now
because
I
think
the
the
conventional
mindset
is.
Oh,
you
know.
A
If
we,
we
do
all
these
environmental
things,
everybody's
income
is
going
to
go
down
and
we'll
all
be
better,
we'll
all
be
worse
off,
we'll
I
think
that's
the
opposite
of
what
what
the
case
would
be
well,
I,
also
for
the
majority
of
people
and
even
and
even
for
the
for
rich
people.
You
know
chasing
their
peers
and
and
trying
to
keep
up
with
you
know.
The
other
billionaires
does
not
make
does
not
make
people
particularly
happy.
B
A
Part
of
the
that's
part
of
the
addiction,
you
know
it's
that
the
it's
a
narrow,
subset,
that's
being
positively
reinforced
by
the
current
system
and
doesn't
want
that
system
to
change,
even
if
it
does
lead
to
the
long-term
destruction
of
the
system
so
yeah.
Those
are
the
forces
that
we
need
to
deal
with.
We.
B
A
You
do
you
we
will
and
they
have,
and
they
have
in
the
past,
risen
up
yeah.
It's
been
challenged
and
challenged
the
regimes
that
were
suppressing
them,
so
we've
seen
historically,
you
know
both
sides
of
both
sides
of
this
story,
both
of
both
civilizations
collapse,
but
also,
but
also
we've
seen.
You
know
radical
Transformations
happen
in
relatively
short
periods
of
time.
So
it's
not
like
it's
impossible
and
I
think
we
are.
You
know
at
a
in
a
period
when
there
are
so
many.
A
You
know,
converging
crises
that
you
know
in
a
sense
it
opens
an
opportunity.
It
opens
the
door
for,
for
you
know
significant
changes
like
we're
talking
about,
and
in
fact
you
could
argue
that
you
know
you
don't
you
don't
really
have
a
chance
to
make
those
changes
until
some
some
some
major
crises,
you
know
have
made
it
a
possibility.
B
A
A
I
think
it's
I
think
there
is
a
positive
Vision.
That's
that's
possible,
I,
didn't
I,
didn't
say
it's
you
know
inevitable.
It
certainly
is
is
equally
likely,
if
not
more
likely,
that
you
know
the
collapse
scenario
would
happen,
but
I
think
it's
our
challenge.
It's
our
it's
our
opportunity
to
go
in
the
other
direction
and
to
say
you
know,
let's,
let's
create
this,
this
better
world
for
ourselves,
for
our
children,
Etc
and
I.
Think
getting
that
message
out.
A
A
B
B
Bread
man,
I,
mean
I,
still
have
a
few
in
my
drawer
what
a
novel
and
it
ended
up,
morphing
into
a
VBS
project
of
the
barter
system
where
they
created
this.
But
you
know
local
and
all
these
businesses
now
through
vbsr,
basically
bartering
their
services
and
stuff,
so
it
it
create
some
really
good
stuff
and
from
I
think
Vermont's
kind
of
leading
the
way
on
a
lot
of
this
stuff.
Would
you
say,
oh.
B
A
Several
things
I
was
I
was
actually
at
a
at
a
conference
at
the
European
Parliament
several
weeks
ago
on
Beyond
growth.
So
they
are
actually
talking
about
this.
You
know
and
the
European
Parliament
and
the
the
president
of
the
commission
was
there
and
gave
it
gave
a
nice
speech
about
limits
to
growth
and
how
we
need
to
move
beyond
beyond
GDP.
Is
it
so
I
I
think
there
is
some
some
progress
being
made
I
think
we
need
several
things.
One
is
an
alternative
to
GDP.
A
You
know
that
we
can
use
to
Monitor
and
measure
our
progress
toward
toward
this.
This
better
system,
and
actually
we
did
a
class
last
term
where
we
had
the
students
go
and
look
for
all
of
the
Alternatives,
the
GDP
that
have
been
proposed
and
they
found
350
50
so
far.
So
it's
not
like
people
haven't
been
thinking
about
this.
You
know
for
for
a
while
and
more
and
more
intensively,
but
in
fact
that's
that's
part
of
the
problem.
A
B
A
That
would
be
good.
You
know
a
well-being
economy,
government
in
in
Vermont.
You
know,
New
Zealand
has
gotten
a
lot
of
traction
on
that
and
created
the
first.
You
know
well-being
budget
for
their,
for
that,
for
the
country
take
a
look
at
Nicholas
sturgeon.
The
first
first
minister
of
Scotland
has
a
really
good
Ted
talk
about
this,
that
it
should
I
recommend
people
taking
a
look
at.
A
But
of
course
like
any
of
these,
these
things
I
mean
she
recently
stepped
down,
as
first
Minister
Jacinda,
ardern
I
think
was,
has
stepped
down
as
prime
minister
of
New
Zealand
I.
Think
she's
going
to
be
a
professor
at
Harvard,
actually
I
think
now,
but
but
I
think
those
kinds
of
movements
can
and
will
begin
to
happen
more.
You
know
we
have
more
more
governments
saying
no,
we
understand
that
we
have
to
get
beyond
beyond
GDP.
We
understand
the
issues
and
the
crises
that
are
building
up.
B
Thank
you
Robert.
Thank
you.
So
much
for
your
time.
You
are
my
hero
and
I,
really
appreciate
all
the
work
you've
done
in
your
career,
to
move
the
needle
and
helping
to
save
our
planet
and
to
my
viewers.
Thank
you
for
joining
us
and
I,
encourage
you
to
to
pick
up
Robert
Costanza's
new
book
addicted
to
growth,
societal
therapy
for
a
sustainable
well-being
future,
and
you
can
get
a
little
I
hope
it's
at
the
local
bookstore
up
there
at
Phoenix
books,
I'm
sure
it
is.