►
From YouTube: Burlington Ward 5 NPA - September 21, 2023
Description
https://linktr.ee/townmeetingtv
00:00:00 Welcome to the Ward 5 NPA
00:04:30 Public Forum
00:18:16 Update on Community Development Block Grants
00:26:58 Update from Ward 5 Residents Displaced by Fires
00:35:54 Presentations/Discussion of Proposed Expansion of McNeil Generating Station
This video belongs to http://www.cctv.org and published with permission under Creative Commons License CCTV Center for Media & Democracy Programming is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 International License.
A
Is
our
September
meeting?
We
have
not
met
for
a
long
time.
We
had
a
wonderful
social
event
in
August
that
I
can
talk
about
in
a
moment,
but
just
want
to
welcome
you
we're
going
to
do
public
forum.
We
are
a
bit
behind
on
our
agenda,
and
food
has
just
arrived,
so
folks
will
be
maybe
getting
up
and
getting
food
as
we
as
we
move
through
some
of
our
items.
A
A
A
It
was
about
a
month
ago,
and
we
had
a
bunch
of
folks
come
through
I.
Think
a
hundred
hamburgers
and
hot
dogs
were
served
and
Fareed
provided
a
beautiful
meal
for
everyone,
and
we
yeah
thank
you
for
reading
yeah
for
tonight
and
all
other
nights
on
which
you
feed
the
people
and
one
of
the
activities
we
did
at
our
social
event.
A
In
addition
to
hanging
out
and
talking
to
each
other
and
enjoying
a
beautiful
day,
was
we
had
a
little
poster
up
where
folks
could
say
this
is
what
I'd
like
to
see
in
the
South
End,
and
we
heard
a
lot
well.
I
have
a
whole
list
here,
but
and
we'll
post
that
on
the
NPA
website
when
we're
when
we're
done
here.
So
you
can
all
take
a
nice
long.
Look
at
what
your
neighbors
want
to
see
in
our
neighborhood,
and
maybe
we
can
think
about
how
to
do
some
of
that
stuff.
A
People
want
more
green
spaces,
safer
streets
that
are
easier
to
walk
and
bike
on
that
people
are
not
driving
so
fast
on
that
are
better
for
buses.
We
want
more
affordable
housing
and
mental
health
support.
We
want
energy
that
is
renewable
and
small
scale.
We
want
a
lot
of
more
like
more
people
playing
together.
A
There
was
a
pitch
for
a
pickleball
League,
more
free
food,
which
we
have
some
of
tonight
and
other
questions
about
how
we,
how
we
collectively
decide
how
to
spend
our
our
City's
money
on
our
City's
resources
and
people
had
a
long
list
of
social
events,
suggestions
like
Community
dinners
and
clothing
swaps
and
walking
clubs.
So
if
that
excites,
you
thank
you
for
continuing
to
participate
in
the
NPA
and
keep
talking
to
your
neighbors
about
all
these
things
and
we'll
put
the
list
online.
A
C
D
C
E
B
B
Guiding
principles,
so
you
know
we
try
to
provide
a
safe
space,
try
to
make
this
meeting
accessible
to
anyone
who
would
be
interested
in
joining
respect,
all
the
differences
that
we
we
all
have
culturally
economically
and-
and
we
just
try
to
make
it-
you
know
fun,
but
a
lot
of
that
is
what
Fareed
helps
us:
make
it
more
fun
and
interesting
and
satisfying
by
bringing
food
in
and
the
final
thing
was
we.
We
don't
endorse
any
political
candidates
in
this
in
this
group,
so
we're
non-partisan
body.
B
B
I
I
It
was
issued
to
front
porch
Forum
on
Monday
the
18th,
and
the
conversation
in
that
Community
update
was
to
provide
folks
with
a
project
update
on
BHS
BTC
and
to
let
folks
know
that
the
school
board
would
be
voting
on
the
guaranteed
maximum
price
for
the
project
on
Tuesday,
which
we
did
and
the
guaranteed
map
the
the
long
short
of
it
and
there's
a
lot
more
content
online
and
on
the
BSD
website,
which
is
bsdvt.org
and
I.
Think
I
dropped
that
link
in
the
Q
a
as
well
for
your
minutes.
I
But
the
long
short
is
that,
while
the
price
did
increase
over
the
last
handful
of
months
due
to
lots
of
expected
circumstances
that
we've
been
preparing
ourselves
for
including
supply
and
demand
shortage
of
Workforce
materials
Etc,
we
have
been
able
to
do
some
light
value
engineering
to
ensure
that
the
quality
of
the
building
will
be
the
high
quality
building
that
we
have
committed
to
the
community.
While
not
changing
any
details
specific
to
the
amount
of
the
bond
that
was
overwhelmingly
supported
by
burlingtonians
in
March
of
2022.
I
I'd
love
for
you
to
check
that
out
and
the
punch
line
is
that
we
are
within
our
budget
and
bond
approval
that
folks
approved
last
March.
So
if
there
are
questions,
I
would
encourage
folks
to
please
contact
me
directly,
which
you
can
do
via
email
or
phone.
My
email
is
a
little
bit
long,
but
I
will
say
it
in
case.
Anyone
goes
to
the
videotape
and
it's
also
on
the
BSD
website.
But
it's
l
and
then
my
last
name,
cambriello
c-a-m-p-r.
I
A
J
B
K
B
A
C
H
Hello,
my
name
is
Andy.
Simon
I
represent
the
friends
of
the
Barge
Canal,
a
volunteer
group,
non-profit
that
is
focused
on
conserving
and
protecting
and
educating
about
the
Pine
Street
Barge
Canal,
which
is
just
down
the
street
from
here.
One
of
the
things
that
we've
done
over
the
last
two
years
is
organize
people
to
clean
up
the
Barge
Canal,
mostly
consisting
of
cleaning
up
old
encampments
from
of
unhoused
people
who
have
moved
on
and
found
other
places
to
live
or,
for
one
reason
or
another,
have
left
and.
D
H
A
lot
of
things
behind
we're
doing
another
one
of
those
cleanups
in
cooperation
with
the
local
synagogues
as
part
of
the
high
holiday
celebration.
We're
meeting
on
Sunday
this
Sunday
September
24th
at
10
o'clock,
to
have
a
brief
ceremony
to
celebrate
what
what
is
called
normally
poshlik,
which
is
a
ceremony
during
the
high
holidays.
But
what
we're
really
doing
there
and
what
we
did
last
year
very
effectively
is
clean
up
the
Barge
Canal
for
a
couple
of
hours
and
you
everybody
is
welcome
to
come.
H
Walk
bike,
shared
use
path
that
they're
currently
digging
up
and
Paving,
but
will
still
be
there
at
10
o'clock
in
the
morning
or
slightly
before,
and
please
come
down
we're
only
going
to
work
for
a
couple
hours
bring
a
long,
pant,
wear
long,
pants,
long,
sleeve,
shirt,
it's
it's
not
a
totally
friendly
environment,
there's
Poison,
Ivy
and
there's
mosquitoes
and
there's
all
sorts
of
sharp
things
and
and
pokies
and
stuff.
But
it
it
really
responds
to
the
love
that
people
have
been
giving
it
over
the
last
two
years.
L
My
name
is
Jack
Tiano
I
live
on
Saint
Paul
Street,
there's
a
mainly
one
like
big
announcement
like
I,
have
a
a
little
poster
that
I
brought,
but
basically,
what's
on
here
so
tomorrow.
Actually
from
four
to
eight
pm,
a
group
called
vermonters
for
people-oriented
places
that
I
am
involved
with
Daisy
is
involved
with
two.
A
lot
of
people
are
involved
with
this.
It's
we're.
L
We
we
advocate
for
housing
and
Transit
and
walkable
and
bikeable
cities,
and
the
point
is:
there's
a
party
tomorrow:
block
party
downtown
St,
Paul
Street
next
to
City
Hall
Park,
where
we're
going
to
be
celebrating
World
Car
free
day,
it's
a
day
to
celebrate,
Alternative
forms
of
transportation
and
thinking
about
a
more
human
scale.
City.
So
we're
going
to
have
vendors,
there's
going
to
be
street
performers,
there's
going
to
be
street
art,
there's
going
to
be
food
vendors,
the
whole
street
will
be
closed
to
cars
and
open
to
people.
L
It's
going
to
be
a
good
time
and
I
hope
that
and
there's
also,
if
you're,
if
you're,
if
you're
interested,
there's
a
scavenger
hunt,
car
free,
scavenger
hunt,
that's
live
right.
Now
you
can
come
to
our
table
and
participate
tomorrow,
but
if
you're
on
Instagram,
you
can
visit
our
Instagram
page,
which
is
vpop
v-pop802
and
there's
tasks
and
activities
to
do
on
the
scavenger
hunt
and
the
more
you
complete
the
more
entries
you
get
in
a
raffle.
We
have
prizes
from
the
lake
monsters
Vermont
Green
FC.
L
We
have
ski
rack
who's
donated
some
prizes,
there's
there's
some
cool
and
some
house
plants
there's
some
really
cool
prizes
donated
by
local
businesses,
sports
teams,
residents,
I'm,
really
really
just
trying
to
build
up
a
block
party
vibe
to
celebrate
World
Car
free
day.
So
you
know
bring
your
friends
bring
a
chair.
Hang
out
with
us
talk
with
us
about
alternative
transportation
and
what
do
people
learn
into
Burlington
can
look
like
in
the
future
and
that's
that's.
It
hope
to
see
you
tomorrow:
Saint
Paul,
Street,
City,
Hall,
Park,
4-8,
P.M,
hang
out
with
us.
F
F
Ballady
I'm
new
to
the
neighborhood
and
I
just
want
to
say
it's
a
lovely
neighborhood
and
you
have
an
awesome,
Park,
Outlet,
Park
and
I
noticed
the
city
is
doing
some
renovation
there
and
I
just
want
to
say
that
the
people,
the
local
people
who
use
the
park
they
keep
it
nice
and
neat
trash
in
Bring,
It
Back,
bring
it
home
and
take
just
a
reminder
of
the
people
to
take
advantage
of
that
lovely
nature
area.
Thank
you,
lovely
neighborhood,.
C
A
J
A
A
A
So
we
did
a
lengthy
welcome
and
Tech
troubleshooting
we've
gotten
through
a
public
forum.
We're
gonna
get
a
quick
update
in
a
moment
on
Community
Development,
Community
Development
block
grants.
That
is
a
mouthful,
we're
going
to
hear
some
from
some
Ward
5
residents
who
have
had
bad
experiences
with
fires
and
then
we're
going
to
talk
about
the
proposed
expansion
of
the
McNeil
Generating
Station
with
time
for
questions
at
the
end
and
discussion.
So
with
that
I
will
hand
it
over
to
I'm.
M
M
So
I
was
appointed
to
a
term
for
two
years
to
serve
on
a
committee
that
advises
the
city
on
allocation
and
and
the
actual
allocation
is
I.
Think
it's
recommended
by
the
the
mayor
made
by
the
council,
but
then
approved
by
Hud
and
generally
the
committee's
recommendation,
and
it's
actually
a
fairly
unique
process
has
been
respected
year
over
year
or
so,
and
that
was
the
case
this
year,
I'm
at
the
end
of
my
term.
M
So
if
anyone
is
interested
in
serving
on
the
committee
I
strongly
recommend
that
you
apply
to
the
ward
5npa
to
serve
on
the
committee.
It's
a
two-year
term.
It's
a
very
I
would
say
it's
a
a
really
important
commitment.
That
is
very
time
consuming
for
about
three
months.
But
then
you
don't
need
to
meet
for
the
rest
of
the
year.
So
so
you
meet
about
once
a
month
and
in
the
interim
you
have
a
lot
of
applications
to
read
and
score.
M
But
you
learn
a
lot
about
social
service
organizations
that
are
that
serve
the
Burlington
Community
and
and
also
how
little
money
there
is
to
serve
them
so
or
to
help
them
achieve
their
mission.
So
this
year
was
no
exception.
We
had
a
fairly
limited
funding
less
than
last
year,
because
there
was
was
not
also
coveted
funding
to
supplement
the
funds.
M
But
we
and
we
received
many
very
impressive
applications,
and
so
the
committee
ended
up
focusing
on
a
few
areas
in
terms
of
our
funding
recommendations.
I
would
say,
probably
the
most
significant
one
was
housing
and
helping
people
to
move
out
of
homelessness
and
into
semi-permanent
or
permanent
housing
situations.
M
Another
recommendation
was
to
fund
a
new
re-entry
recovery
program.
Unfortunately,
I
don't
have
the
name
in
front
of
me,
but
that
is
a
brand
new
program
that
has
seen
incredible
success
in
helping
people
that
are
re-entering
Society
after
being
incarcerated
and
assisting
them
in
many
many
needs
that
they
have
during
that
second
period.
M
Can't
read
my
mind,
I
think
here:
oh
so
this
program
may
sound
strange:
it's
actually
assistance
in
filing
income
taxes
and
it's
it
actually
helps
people
obtain
their
earned
income
credits
and
it
has
just
an
incredible
return
on
the
investment
Lunds
Early
Education
Children's
Program
was
funded
again
and
then
for
the
first
time
the
moon
Escape.
How
or
at
least
in
recent
and
recent
history-
the
Winooski
Valet
Park
District
applied
for
funding,
and
this
was
a
bit
of
an
anomaly.
M
M
C
B
D
B
M
M
Yeah,
so
there's
there's
actually
two
types
of
Grants
and
one
is
called
they're
both
public.
They,
both
you
can
can
receive
funding
for
public
service
and
both
of
them,
but
one
of
them
is
called
the
public
service.
One
and
I
think
the
other
one
is
called
the
Capital
One
and
so
just
to
give
you
a
sense.
J
Apologized
that
they
couldn't
stay
and
sounded
like
she
just
needed
to
go,
get
rest
and
he
just
hasn't
been
feeling
well,
so
he
apologized
and-
and
she
told
me,
I
I
got
the
permission
from
her
like
if
I
do
like
just
talk
about
the
her
story
and
also
the
other
neighbor
that
I
was
hoping
would
be
able
to
join
us
tonight
had
to
work.
His
name
is
lamba.
J
I
think
this
is
important
for
us
to
know
about,
to
become
aware
and
also
maybe
possibly
like,
come
up
with
ways
to
help
our
neighbors
address
this.
So
my
name
is
Fareed
I
volunteer
for
the
People's
Kitchen.
We
do
a
weekly
food
distribution
in
the
South
Meadow
neighborhood
and
in
around
November
2022
there
was
a
fire
in
one
of
the
building
complexes.
It
was
an
eight
unit
building,
so
eight
families
were
affected
by
the
fire.
J
They
were
displaced
and-
and
usually
we
would
like
you
know,
serve
them
like
bring
some
fresh,
veggies
and
also
other
food
stuff
and
groceries.
So
we
kind
of
stayed
in
touch
with
a
few
of
the
families,
and
so
this
was
in
November
2022
and
they
were
told
to
you
know,
do
the
first
month
of
the
first
month
after
the
fire,
everything
was
great.
They
were
able
to
be
placed
in
temporary
housing
and
there
were
some
assistance
from
the
Red,
Cross
and
I
think
the
insurance
also
covered
some
of
the
rent
for
them.
J
But
now
it's
almost
November
again
and
they're,
still
not
being
housed
back
in
a
permanent
housing.
I
think
the
first
family
is
actually
about
to
be
moved
back
to
where
they
were
living
before
and
in
the
meantime,
we've
lost
touch
with
at
least
two
families,
and
we
we
are
still
in
touch
with
another
two
families
and
they
were
deeply
in
debt
like
the
whole.
J
The
whole
incident
just
like,
but
then
these
are
folks
who
are
like
already
struggling
living
in
South
Meadow
in
Baird,
neighborhood,
so
and
I.
Last
time
I
spoke
to
to
these
families.
They
were
thousands
of
dollars
in
that
trying
to
keep
up
after
you
know,
after
the
fire,
obviously
they
had
to
move
to
be
moved.
J
So
she
had
to
like
pay
for
Uber
to
get
it
to
and
from
work
which
you
know
which
adds
up
after
a
while.
So
even
though
the
first
month
of
her
stay
in
the
hotel
was
covered
by
the
City
by
really
by
the
landlord,
the
subsequent
months
were
not,
and
so
the
ordinance
that
we
have
isn't
really
clear.
They
don't
really
say
what
happens
after
that
first
month,
if
the
landlord
still
hasn't
been
able
to
find
the
permanent
housing
for
the
displaced
tenant.
So
Lenore
has
been
paying
thousands
of
dollars.
J
Now
you
know
in
in
hotel
fees
in,
in
addition
to
transportation
and
and-
and
she
also
has
like
some
of
some
health
issues
as
a
result
of
the
fire.
So
at
this
point,
like
I
I,
have
seen
basically
what
I
see
is
like
a
pattern
of
people
who
could
at
least
afford
to
be
to
be
paying
all
this
extra
because
they
were
displaced
through
no
fault
of
their
own,
and
now
our
neighbors
were
struggling.
J
So
lenora's
displacement
was
around
in
February,
and
now
we
are
in
September,
so
she's
been
paying
a
out
of
pocket
for
since
March
since
the
end
of
March,
and
she
really
cannot
afford
that
is
on
fixed
income,
and
this
is
the
similar
stories
with
the
families
that
we
that
we
have
from
like
the
November
fire
when
I
talked
to
them,
they
they're
drowning.
In
that
most
of
them
work
three.
J
You
know
two
three
jobs,
so
they
don't
really
have
the
time
to
even
like
let
you
know
people
know
Lenora
just
happens
to
be
very
persistent.
She
doesn't
give
up.
So
that's
how
like
I
know
of
her
story,
but
the
other
tenants
in
her
building
they're
they're.
You
know
they're
too,
taken
up
with
trying
to
survive.
To
then
to
you
know,
talk
to
a
reporter
or
or
something
or
even
come
to
the
NPA.
J
So
I
think
it's
something
that
we
should
be
aware
of,
that
we
have
neighbors
who
are
struggling
because
of
this
disasters
and
they're
not
really
getting
the
help
that
they
that
they
need
and
also
I
I,
think
you
know
as
a
community.
We
need
to
hold
like
the
the
landlords
accountable
and
also
like
the
city
departments,
who
are
supposed
to
be
holding
them
accountable,
the
ordinance
that
we
have
actually
give
the
city
the
power
to
put
a
lien
on
property
of
these
landlords
and
but
I.
J
We,
you
know,
I
keep
checking
the
database
that
you
can
actually
find
a
property
has
a
place
on
them
and
that
hasn't
happened
yet.
So
there
is
no
like
good
way
for
the
city
to
like
to
force
the
landlords
to
to
do
the
right
thing
so
and
as
far
as
like
other
neighbors
or
who
wants
to
help
like
we
are
thinking
of
actually
coming
up
with,
like
some
sort
of
fundraiser,
for
both
like
lenores,
like
fellow
tenants
on
the
Saint
Paul,
and
also
the
South
Middle
fire
like
family.
J
So
if
you're,
if
you're
interested
in
helping
out
it
would
be
great-
and
you
can
let
me
know-
my
email
is
free
at
workercenter.org
and
802-272-8339
is
my
phone
number
I
think
we
could?
Probably
it
would
be
really
appreciated
by
the
families.
I,
don't
think
we
could
cover
like
all
the
how
deep
they
are
in
that,
but
you
know
like
winter
is
coming.
We
could
get
like
some,
some
blankets
and
and
and
warm
clothes
for
the
kids.
J
A
Yeah
I
was
chatting
with
Lenora
earlier
and
she
was
saying
that
it.
It
would
be
helpful
for
folks
to
like
call
the
city
and-
and
let
them
know
that
we're
concerned.
So
we
can.
We
can
put
some
tips
for
doing
that,
making
that
phone
call
in
our
in
our
notes,
I
believe
unless
other
folks
have
thoughts
or
questions
about
this
situation.
G
B
N
C
C
A
A
N
And
so
if
we
can
go
to
the
next
slide,
I
think
it's
really
just
kind
of
a
introduction
for
folks.
You
know
who
who
may
not
be
familiar
I
know
a
lot
of
folks
are
Burlington
electric
we're
the
public
Municipal
utility
for
the
City
of
Burlington.
We
provide
electricity
for
the
entire
city
and
then
also
at
the
airport,
we're
the
third
largest
Municipal
utility,
or
what
largest
Municipal
third
largest
utility
in
the
state
of
Vermont
100
renewable.
Since
2014
and
I
put
a
link
here
for
our
website.
N
N
So
really.
What
is
our
Focus?
Why
are
we
talking
about
this?
What
are
we
doing
is
really
related
to
this
Net
Zero
Energy
roadmap
that
we
commissioned
back
in
2018
2019,
with
the
idea
that,
if
we're
100
renewable
with
our
electricity,
can
we
take
that
accomplishment
into
the
thermal
sectors
for
heating
into
the
ground
transportation
sector
and
reduce
and
eventually
eliminate
fossil
fuel
use
in
those
sectors
we've
been
tracking
that
annually.
N
We
were
kind
of
trending
down
over
the
first
couple
of
years
and
in
the
transportation
sector
we're
actually
lower
than
the
dotted
line,
which
is
the
pace
of
reduction
that
we
need
for
the
2030
goal,
as
you
can
see,
with
the
commercial
natural
gas
to
some
extent
residential
as
well,
but
really
commercial
you're,
seeing
a
Divergence
there
and
that's
part
of
what's
driving
our
our
focus
on
District
heat
next
slide.
Please.
N
This
is
the
total
emissions.
When
you
count
both
thermal
and
ground
transportation,
you
see
we
kind
of
came
down
between
2018
and
2019
and
into
the
pandemic,
and
then
we
kind
of
flatlined
overall,
but
the
extent
you're,
seeing
that
curve
kind
of
going
upward.
A
lot
of
that
is
really
commercial
sector.
N
So
again,
that's
a
kind
of
a
wood
residue.
That's
left
over
from
processing
at
Sawmills,
1.6
percent
from
our
wastewood
yard.
If
anybody's
ever
delivered
untreated
wood
to
our
wastewood
yard,
we're
able
to
take
that
and
use
it,
so
it
doesn't
go
into
a
landfill
and
then
0.3
percent
of
our
wood
2022
comes
from
what's
called
roundwood,
which
is
a
lower
value
wood
that
is
harvested
during
those
operations.
N
If
you
ever
see
a
picture
of
McNeil's,
Wood
Yard
and
you
see
a
what
looks
like
a
log
as
opposed
to
chips,
that's
going
to
be
probably
the
round
Wood.
We
keep
that
on
site
for
fuel
Security
in
the
flood
season,
it's
kind
of
hard
to
get
out
sometimes
into
the
woods
and
get
fuel.
So
we
keep
a
very
limited
amount
of
round
Wood
on
site
that
can
be
used
during
those
times
of
the
year.
But
0.3
percent
of
our
wood
in
2022
was
round
Wood
from
a
climate
standpoint.
N
There's
different
ways:
you
can
look
at
the
climate
profile
of
a
plant
like
McNeil.
The
kind
of
the
language
here
on
the
slide
is
basically
indicating
from
the
ipcc
that
fossil
fuels-
coal,
oil
and
gas
are
the
largest
contributor
by
far
to
Global,
Climate
Change
anthropogenic
emissions
emissions
caused
by
humans.
N
In
terms
of
the
ipcc,
they
say
you
look
at
the
emissions
from
wood
when
you
harvest
the
tree,
you
look
sector
not
at
the
stack
but
there's
different
ways
to
cut
it.
If
you
look
at
it
that
way,
we
did
a
third
party
analysis
that
says
that
in
the
areas
where
McNeil
harvests
in
Upstate,
New,
York
and
Vermont
between
2007
and
2020,
over
24
million
tons
of
CO2
storage
was
added
in
live
trees
net.
So
we
aren't
losing
carbon.
We
aren't
even
holding
steady.
We
actually
gained
carbon
storage
in
the
areas
where
we're
harvesting.
N
So
if
you
look
at
it
with
the
lens
that
the
ipcc
takes
that's
one
of
the
ways
you
can
look
at
it,
you
can
also
look
at
a
life
cycle
basis.
You
can
say:
hey,
let's
look
at
from
Upstream
when
you
harvest
wood,
you
have
to
transport
it
to
the
plant
to
the
actual
emissions
at
the
stack
and
then
Downstream
when
you're
recapturing.
You
know
that
carbon
as
trees,
where
you
grow,
how
does
that
stack
up
against
fossil
fuels?
So
there's
a
analysis
there
from
the
national
renewable
energy
lab
from
the
Department
of
energy.
N
That
shows
biomass
has
a
median
life
cycle
emissions
profile
of
52
grams
of
CO2
per
kilowatt
hour,
which
is
lower
than
Natural
Gas
asset
486
grams
oil
at
840,
or
coal
at
over
1
000..
So
just
a
couple
different
ways:
you
can
look
at
the
carbon
profile
to
be
crystal
clear.
Everything
has
a
carbon
footprint
right,
even
solar
and
wind,
which
are
great
resources,
have
a
carbon
footprint
when
they're
created
and
installed.
So
we
try
to
look
at
things
on
a
life
cycle
basis.
N
Let's
try
to
do
apples
to
apples
comparison
and
there's
Links
at
the
bottom
of
the
slide.
So
folks
want
to
see
the
resources
we
were
drawing
on
for
these
different
data
points.
You
can
certainly
do
that
and
that
photo
is
just
the
our
Foresters.
You
can
see
Betsy
there
in
the
white
hat
blue
jacket
and
her
colleagues
from
the
forestry
team
next
slide,
please.
N
So
we
were
just
talking
about
this.
You
know
what
is
our
our
fuel
use?
What
what
you
see
there
is
our
actual
Supply
mix,
and
you
see
the
variation
in
Wood
in
a
given
year,
based
on
the
electric
market
prices,
the
plant's
going
to
run
in
different
ways
to
try
to
really
be
advantageous
for
the
City
of
Burlington
ratepayers.
N
But
even
if
you
were
looking
at
any
kind
of
incremental
usage
at
the
point
we
want
to
make
here
is
there's
a
lot
of
natural
variability
within
how
much
wood
we
use-
and
it's
really
based
on
you
know,
is
running
the
plant
economic
to
protect
Burlington
customers
from
the
iso
New
England
grid
Market.
How
do
we
dispatch
the
plant
has
changed
over
time?
N
We
really
try
to
run
it
during
the
higher
price
times
in
the
winter
and
the
Summer
where,
if
we
weren't
running
it,
we
would
be
exposing
our
customers
to
much
higher
costs
and
to
fossil
fuel
volatility.
So
McNeil
protects
us
from
that.
The
other
point,
on
the
left
hand,
side
here
is
yet
another
way
to
cut
it.
N
When
we
talk
about
emissions
is
something
called
the
debt
and
dividend
approach
which
is
favored
in
some
cases
by
folks
who
may
not
necessarily
support
using
wood
energy,
and
there
was
a
study
in
Massachusetts
that
looked
at
using
that
approach
and
even
that
study
found
if
you're
using
the
residues,
the
tops
and
limbs
that
we
were
talking
about
earlier,
that
biomass
electric
has
a
favorable
carbon
payback
relative
to
Natural
Gas
relative
to
fossil
fuel.
So
that's
that
study
is
referenced
there
and
there's
a
link
there
as
well.
Next
slide,
please
so.
N
Finally,
what
are
we
actually
here
talking
about
is
District
energy.
Here's
a
map
you
can
see,
hopefully
the
kind
of
purple
line.
There
is
the
proposed
route
for
the
district
Energy
System.
That
would
run
from
McNeil
up
to
the
UVM
Medical
Center,
potentially
connecting
to
other
buildings
at
different
points.
N
You
know
we're
looking
at
whether
it
can
connect
to
University
of
Vermont
buildings.
Could
it
connect
to
other
buildings
even
down
the
road,
the
interval,
Center
or
other
buildings
that
are
along
that
route.
The
proposed
system,
which
has
been
designed
and
engineered
over
three
phases
of
feasibility
work
that
stemmed
from
20
late
2018.
All
the
way
through
to
current
2023
looks
at
a
system
that
would
provide
191,
000
mmbtu
of
renewable
steam.
N
So
we
go
back
to
that
that
curve
that
we
started
with
that's
spending
in
the
wrong
direction.
This
is
a
project
that
can
help
bend
that
fossil
fuel
use
curve
back
down
in
the
direction
that
we
want
to
see
it.
So
that's
we
view
it
as
the
single
biggest
step
you
could
take
in
Burlington
to
affect
our
Net
Zero,
Energy
roadmap
goals,
and
then
the
last
slide
here
and
then
glad
to
talk,
hear,
what's
on
your
mind,
take
questions
this
and
there's
a
lot
of
tech
next
year,
so
I
apologize.
N
This
was
a
score,
a
carbon
intensity
score
that
was
conducted
about
District
energy
at
McNeil.
So
not
like
a
generic
study,
not
assumptions,
but
this
was
on
the
actual
proposed
District
Energy
System
at
McNeil,
with
the
McNeil
steam
with
the
electric
boiler
and
looked
at
it
on
a
life
cycle
basis
using
accepted
carbon
accounting
protocols
using
the
model
that
was
included
in
the
state's
clean
heat
standard.
N
That
was
passed
this
last
legislative
session
and
it
found
that
the
McNeil
system
would
reduce
greenhouse
gas
Emissions
on
a
life
cycle
basis
relative
to
Natural
Gas
by
over
95
percent.
So
that's
a
link
here
to
that
report
from
first
environment
using
the
Greet
model
that
was
specified
in
the
state,
affordable
heat
act,
Jen.
A
C
A
All
right
so
I'm,
Elena
I'm
here
now
in
my
capacity
as
a
member
of
shopee,
TV,
biomass
and
I,
am
here
for
the
same
reason
that
I
serve
on
the
steering
committee,
which
is
that
I,
love,
Burlington
and
I
know
we
can
do
better
than
what
we
have
so
first
first
thought,
on
my
mind,
is
that
it
is
no
longer
1984.
I
know
that
mullets
are
back
in,
but
time
has
passed
and
in
fact
it's
2023.
A
So
we
I
have
seen
this
slide
in
presentations.
That
makes
a
distinction
between
what
happens
to
carbon,
that
comes
from
burned,
trees
and
what
happens
to
carbon
from
fossil
fuels.
There's
there's
only
one
kind
of
carbon
and
the
carbon
cycle
is
not
cannot
be
split,
hairs
to
serve
an
idea
of
renewable
energy
and,
in
fact,
productivity
and
biomass
either.
A
If
we
leave
the
the
trees
in
the
woods,
they
contribute
to
soil
quality
or
they
respire
and
become
greenhouse
gases,
or
they
burn
and
become
greenhouse
gases
so
and
not
pictured
here,
because
there
is
nobody
up.
There
is
a
person
in
the
sky
saying.
Oh
this,
this
molecule
of
CO2
came
from
a
tree,
or
this
molecule
of
CO2
came
from
fossil
fuels.
A
That
not
alive
in
our
current
ecosystem.
It
all
goes
into
the
atmosphere
as
carbon
dioxide.
Some
of
that
comes
back
down
in
the
terms
of
in
in
the
spaces
where
Forest
is
left
on
unlogged
and
unhindered,
but
we
also
know
that
an
older
Forest
is
a
much
more
powerful
Forest
than
anyone
that
is
replanted
after
logging
or
harvesting
wood.
So
I
wish
that
we
still
had
time
to
wait.
A
A
A
So
another
thing
that
concerns
me
about
wood
Heat,
excuse
me,
is
that
when
we
actually
count
the
emissions
from
burning
the
wood,
that's
a
really
different
number
I
didn't
make
this
slide.
I,
don't
know
how
to
do
this
kind
of
math
or
this
kind
of
science,
but
there
was
a
great
presentation
at
City
Hall.
Just
a
few
months
ago,
we
heard
from
the
folks
at
bed
as
well
as
some
scientists
who
were
invited
by
city
council
to
give
us
some
more
information.
A
A
We
can
also
see
that
biomass
is
still
generating
CO2-
it's
not
Net
Zero,
and
to
get
to
the
point
of
exactly
why
we're
chatting
tonight
there's
this
idea
that
we're
going
to
build
a
steam
pipe
from
the
McNiel
juddering
station
up
the
hill
to
power,
the
hospital
and
while
District
heat
will
increase
McNeil's
efficiency
that
is
still
only
half
as
efficient
as
the
accepted
standard
for
biomass
facilities
across
the
U.S.
So
that
makes
me
wonder
why
is
this
a
responsible
investment
for
Burlington?
A
That
efficiency
means
that,
for
four
trees
that
are
burned
just
over
one
turns
into
energy
that
we
use
and
from
my
understanding
about
District
heat,
the
waste
heat
that
we
get
from
McNiel
is
actually
not
enough
heat
to
power
the
hospital,
and
we
would
need
to
increase
the
amount
of
wood
burned,
and
then
we
would
make
this
commitment
to
a
biomass
facility
that
has
served
us
tremendously.
Well.
I
know
that
there's
so
much
benefit
to
our
community
when
electricity
prices
stay
steady
and
we're
not
subject
to
the
the
mercy
of
the
the
fossil
fuel
industry.
A
But
we
should
really
talk
about
another
way
to
do
this
and
I'm
not
sure
that
investing
in
District
energy
is
the
right
thing
to
do.
I'm,
not
here
to
say,
let's
shut
down
McNeil
tomorrow,
I
see
its
value,
but
I.
Don't
think
that
District
energy
is
the
right
choice
and,
among
many
other
things
that
we've
already
heard
about
because
of
the
the
impact
of
of
burning
wood
for
fuel.
All
of
our
neighbors
are
understanding
that
biomass
is
not
renewable.
This
is
not.
We
are
not
talking
about
1984
we're
not
talking
about
1994.
A
D
D
K
This
project,
because
I
have
mixed
feelings
like
I,
see
the
strengths
and
I
see
the
harm
and
we're
in
a
tough
spot
as
humans.
Right
now,
so
we
need
to
stay
open
to
every
possibility,
but
a
question
I
have
just
for
the
BD
folks
is
like
in
this
case.
You
know
like
we're:
gonna,
be
harvesting
wood
within
a
certain
radius
and
then
transporting
it
using
energy
to
then
burn
it
to
create
energy.
K
K
There
could
be
one,
you
know,
Etc
I'm,
just
wondering
if
you
you've
looked
at
it
and
with
the
pros
or
cons
of
that
might
be
not
to
change
the
subject,
but
just
from
the
grand
scheme
of
the
discussion
of
every
possibility,
I
was
thinking
about,
like
your
critique
and
part
of
it
is
like
the
transportation
of
the
fuel
and
then
but
then
we
have
this
waste
locally,
that
we're
sending
very
far
away,
and
so
what
could
we
do
with
that?
So.
N
For
the
question,
thank
you
for
your
presentation.
I
I'd
love
to
dig
in
on
it
more,
but
in
terms
of
biodigesters
we
had
a
conversation,
I
think
a
few
years
back
where
there
was
some
consideration,
exactly
what
you
were
mentioning
Brian
and
nothing
has
has
really
come
to
fruition.
I'm,
not
a
solid
waste
or
a
bio,
a
waste
expert.
N
Certainly
the
Technology's
demonstrated
elsewhere
in
Vermont.
We
have
you
know
rural
digesters
people
call
cow
power,
different
things,
vgs
is
using
digesters
in
some
cases
for
methane,
renewable
methane
or
whatever
you
might
want
to
call
it
so
I
think.
Would
we
be
open
to
it?
Yeah
absolutely
I
mean
I've
heard
some
different
ideas
like
people
have
talked
about.
Could
we
do
solar
on
the
landfill?
Would
we
be
interested?
N
Say
this
maybe
without
exception
for
the
most
part,
if
there
is
an
opportunity
for
somebody
to
develop
a
renewable
energy
project
in
the
City
of
Burlington,
that's
going
to
be
really
valuable
to
us,
because
energy
within
the
city
is
worth
more
to
us
than
energy
that
we
have
to
bring
in
from
outside
the
city.
We
have
to
pay
charges
for
that
and
everything.
So
that's
why
we
love
solar
in
the
city.
We
would
definitely
be
interested
in
a
digester,
I
haven't
heard
a
viable
proposal.
K
N
K
You
you
were
talking
about
the
burning
of
methane,
and
some
people
like
like
that
sounds
bad,
but
my
understanding
is
that
methane
is
30
times
stronger
of
a
greenhouse
gas
and
then
carb
carbon.
You
know
dioxide,
so
the
small
amount
of
carbon
dioxide
coming
from
burning
any
methane
from
a
biodigester
is
harm
reduction.
It's
big
time
harm
reduction,
so
I
just
want
to
put
that
out
there
to
like
this
is
the
mindset
I'm
coming
from
is
how
can
we
chip
away
at
it?
K
K
What,
if
we
like,
put
it
into
the
code
for
developments
that
like
or
we
maybe
incentivize
a
developer
to
experiment
with
one,
and
you
don't
have
to
answer
that,
but
it
just
came
to
mind
when
you
said
no
one's
done
it
I'm
like
well,
we
have
all
these
developments,
like
maybe
it's
too
late
for
downtown
but
downtown.
Does
the
Downtown
Development
has
all
these
other
amazing
things
that
have
been
built
into
the
design,
but.
N
You
know
we
get
75
of
our
wood
at
McNeil
from
rail,
which
does
certainly
reduce
some
of
the
transportation
burden,
doesn't
eliminate
it,
but
it
reduces
it
from
an
emission
standpoint
and
any
project
whether
it's
digest
or
for
you
know
this
purpose
or
what
anything?
That's
not
you
know
solar,
wind
or
Hydro,
if
you're
using
fuel,
you
have
to
think
about
like
what
is
the
delivery
mechanism,
those
types
of
things
but
yeah
we'd
be
really
interested.
L
L
E
L
N
Lena
you
had
in
your
slide
when
you
were
talking
about
the
waste
heat,
essentially
the
more.
We
can
connect
customers
along
that
router
within
that
route
to
the
system
and
use
what's
called
the
condensate
return,
which
is
essentially,
if
you're,
delivering
Steam
and
then
you
have
essentially
a
hot
water
loop.
That's
returning
and.
N
We
can
connect
to
that
the
more
waste
heat
we
can
basically
use
for
the
project,
so
it's
a
variable
there,
but
so
it
could
connect
to
multiple
customers
potentially
and
do
even
more
potentially
in
the
future.
But
it's
a
great
point:
it's
a
big
chunk.
It's
the
single
biggest
kind
of
Chunk
we
can
take.
The
meeting
I
was
just
at
was
the
ordinance
committee
and
they're
looking
at
a
carbon
alternative
compliance
fee
for
new
construction
large
existing
buildings
that
we
voted
on
back
on
town
meeting
day.
N
N
G
L
L
N
Asking
the
taxpayers
of
Burlington
to
pay
for
it.
It's
we've
created.
There
was
city
council
resolution
last
summer
created
a
501c3
non-profit,
that's
run
by
Evergreen
energy,
which
is
the
entity
we've
been
working
with
on
the
feasibility
work.
They
run
a
system
in
St,
Paul,
a
district
heat
system,
and
they
have
expertise
with
this.
The
idea
is,
Mcneil
would
sell
the
steam
to
the
non-profit,
the
non-profit
will
contract
with
the
customers.
It.
N
L
Wouldn't
be
financing
it,
we
would
be
paying
for
it
yeah.
So
I
guess
like
what
I'm
thinking
about
so,
like
even
thinking
about
the
the
first
question
that
I
asked
too
about
like
how
does
this
scale?
Does
it
scale?
What's
the
the
longer
term
impacts
of
pursuing
this
project,
it
sounds
like
you're
you're,
physically
limited
by
the
steam
pipe
right,
you're,
not
it's
not
like
the
grid.
It
doesn't
in
order
to
directly
use
the
heat,
because
it's
not
like
electricity
director
right
you're,
actually
doing
thermal
exchange
right.
N
L
L
N
First
point
is
at
some
point:
if
we
want
to
get
to
Net
Zero
2030,
you
have
to
deal
with
the
large
customers
that
can't
Electrify
their
heating
systems
and
believe
me,
like
we're
the
electric
utility.
We
provide
incentives
for
that
stuff.
If
I
can
Electrify
it.
That's
my
first
option:
that's
where
we're
going
to
go
always,
but
there
are
some
loads
in
the
city
and
you
think
about
the
customers
we're
talking
about
the
hospital
potentially
the
university.
N
It's
a
thermal
load,
so
solar
is
not
going
to
impact
that
solar
generates
electricity.
We
love
solar,
I,
have
solar
on
my
roof,
like
I,
believe
in
solar,
so
you
have
to
get
at
that
load
and
the
question
that
we've
been
asking
for
a
long
time
in
the
community
is:
can
we
use
McNeil
more
efficiently?
Can
we
use
it
to
do
this?
It's
never
gotten
to
this
point
before
it's
never
had
a
fully
designed
engineered
kind
of
viable
project,
McNeil
itself.
N
N
N
So
I
want
to
make
it
as
efficient
and
beneficial
as
possible,
and
this
project
does
that
there
are
other
things
we
can
look
at
like
you,
can
capture
additional
waste
heat
to
dry
wood
chips
and
make
the
plant
even
more
efficient.
You
know
to
the
point
you
had
about
the
how
much
energy
we're
getting
out
of
the
wood
chips,
a
lot
of
that's
moisture
content
right.
So
if
we
can
dry
the
wood
chips
using
waste
heat,
you
potentially
get
more
energy
out
of
each
wood
chip.
That's
another
thing
that
we're
interested
in
exploring
at
McNeil.
N
So,
to
some
extent
you
know
the
challenge
we
have
is
that
when
you're
running
McNeil
the
hours
that
we
run
it
natural
gas
is
the
marginal
fuel
that's
available
on
the
New
England
grid,
92
to
98
of
the
time
and
the
other
times
it's
mostly
coal
and
oil.
If
92
to
98
of
the
time
we're
running
McNeil
solar
was
the
alternative
I'd
be
with
you
right
now,
I'd
say:
let's
go
down
there,
we
don't
need
it,
go
ahead.
Turn
it
off.
Like
we've
got
the
grid
that
we
need.
N
We
could
run
it
on
solar
run
it
on
wind.
That
hasn't,
you
know,
maybe
a
lower
apartment
footprint,
even
the
McNiel
I'm,
in
count
me
in
for
the
foreseeable
future,
when,
when
solar
and
wind
are
single,
digit
low,
single
digit
percentages
on
the
New
England
grid,
the
only
alternative,
if
you
move
away
from.
D
D
N
H
H
and
their
argument,
is
we
can't
do
that
with
McNeil?
And
we
can't
do
that
if
we
expand
McNeil,
and
we
can't
do
that.
If
we
keep
using
biomass
and
when
I
see
a
thousand
climate
scientists
signing
a
letter
that
says,
biomass
is
not
where
we
need
to
go
I
I'm,
not
hearing
from
the
bed
side,
though
I
do
think
that
you,
you
are.
Some
of
your
materials
are
responding
to
some
of
the
arguments.
I'm,
not
hearing
I
I,
it
seems
like
two
sides
are
talking,
but
not
necessarily
listening
to
each
other.
N
That's
a
good
question
and
I've
I've
tried
to
digest
the
material
that
was
presented
by
Dr
Rooney
Varga,
Dr,
Mumma
and
I
mean
the
positive
thing.
I
think
we
see
it
in
the
room
here,
I
think
we
see
it
at
the
tuke
Forum
I
think
we
see
it
in
any
conversation
as
Burlington
we're
all
trying
to
do
something
that
we
view
as
positive
on
climate.
We
don't
necessarily
agree
on
every
single
step,
but
I
appreciate
being
in
community
where
people
care
and
they
want
to
move
in
that
direction.
N
That's
I've
spent
my
whole
career
working
on
on
these
issues.
Different
levels
of
government,
different
policies,
the
critique
that
Dr
Rooney
Varga
offered
a
couple
things.
So
let
me
let
me
address
it
directly,
because
that's
what
kind
of
what
you're
saying
is?
Let's,
let's
talk
to
each
other,
not
past
each
other,
one
of
the
challenges
I
had
with
the
presentation.
Is
it
didn't
actually
analyze
McNeil
or
our
harvesting
practices
or
our
forestry
practices?
It
was
generic
I
think
she
said
this
at
one
point.
N
During
the
presentation
the
model
wasn't
specific
to
mcnieler.
This
is
what
it
looks
like
if
you
do.
A
95
Harvest
I'm,
not
saying
that
you
do
that
at
McNeil,
you
know
she.
She
acknowledged
that
the
slide
that
was
presented
here
shows
the
emissions
of
the
stack,
and
this
is
where
we're
talking
past
each
other
I
think
to
some
extent
the
emissions
at
the
stack.
N
N
This
is
the
ipcc,
the
EPA,
the
state
of
Vermont
and
a
number
of
other
climate
scientists
who
viewed
view
it
this
way
and
say:
let's
look
at
it
on
a
life
cycle
basis
and
when
you
do
that,
if
the
trees
are
regrowing,
you
can
argue
that
biomass
emissions
are
offset
and
we
had
that.
You
know
kind
of
circular
graph
earlier
now:
here's
where
I'll.
Let
me
let
me
give
credit
to
the
critique.
N
There
is
a
lag
right.
We
were
talking
about
I,
think
Elena.
You
said
150
years,
but
there's
different
lags
depending
on
what
type
of
forest
material
you're
using
and
the
one
piece
that
I
think.
Maybe
there's
I
don't
know
if
it's
common
ground,
but
maybe
there's
some
some
Dynamic
around.
This-
is
we're
using
forest
residues
and
I.
Think
even
Dr
Mumma
Dr
Rooney
Varga
acknowledged
that
has
a
quicker
payback,
much
quicker
payback
than
if
you're
harvesting
trees
for
energy.
N
If
you're
going
out
and
cutting
trees
for
energy,
we
don't
go
out
in
countries
for
energy.
In
fact,
we
don't
go
out
in
countries
period.
We
work
with
on
private
lands,
primarily
Harvesters,
who
are
doing
cuts
and
we
say
we're
willing
to
take
the
lower
value
residue.
That's
left
over
that
would
otherwise
decompose
and
emit
carbon
over
time.
I
think
that.
N
I've
seen
including
science
cited
by
Dr
mooma
positively
says,
if
you're
using
those
residues,
your
carbon
payback
period,
is
going
to
be
quicker.
Some
people
say
10
years,
some
people
say
15
years.
It's
gonna
be
quicker,
certainly
quicker
than
burning
fossil
fuels.
The
challenge
at
The,
tuke
Forum,
was
that
I
think
Dr
Rooney,
Varga
Dr
Mumma,
said
well
what
if
we
were
just
using
that
residue
for
strandboard
or
cellulose
insulation?
Wouldn't
that
be
even
better,
and
maybe
it
would
but
there's
no
market
for
that.
N
N
N
I
appreciate
the
frame
where,
if
you
twist
it
in
a
different
direction,
you
can
come
at
the
exact
same
question
and
say
no:
it's
a
negative,
because
I'm
looking
at
the
stack
emissions
only
and
I
see
that
those
would
be
different
than
fossil
fuels.
So
I
don't
know
if
I
grappled
with
it
as
directly
as
I.
Think
I
can
to
try
to
give
you
a
sense
of
how
we're
looking
at
the
questions.
I
really
be
interested
in
your
thoughts
too,
though,.
A
At
the
stack,
so
I'm
I'm
struggling
with
this
Net
Zero
idea
generally
and
I,
know
that
that
has
been
the
frame
with
which
Burlington,
electric
and
Burlington
has
chosen
to
tackle
climate
change.
I
also
know
that
Net
Zero
is
a
framework
that
was
developed
by
the
fossil
fuel
industry,
specifically
to
delay
Global
Climate
policy,
so
I'm
a
little
skeptical
of
that,
regardless
of
what
we're
doing
here,
I
just
don't
think
it's
a
useful
frame
and
I
also
like,
even
if
the
carbon
payback
is
10
or
15
years.
A
A
We
should
also
study
Alternatives,
I,
there's.
So
much
that
I
don't
understand
about
energy
and
electricity,
but
I
do
know
that
when
we
burn
wood
there's
all
this
particulate
matter
that
goes
into
the
air.
I
know
that
I've
I've
heard-
and
this
blew
my
mind,
I'm
curious.
What
you
think
about
this
that
actually
using
natural
gas
is
burning.
Wood
is
so
inefficient
that
using
natural
gas
is
actually
more
efficient,
so
that
was
really
troubling
to
me
and
and
further
like
when
we.
A
We
we're
not
netting
zero
anymore,
like
I'm
I'm
wondering
about,
if
we're
actually
considering
the
consequences
of
continuing
to
use,
wood,
Heat
and
40
million
dollars
that
the
taxpayers
don't
have
to
pay
great
I'm,
so
glad
the
taxpayers
don't
have
to
pay
it.
Also
that's
40
million
dollars
of
work
that
maybe
we
should
spend
on
make
figuring
out
if
we
can
do
a
geothermal
Network
out
of
the
hospital
I
I'm
I'm,
wanting
to
see
more
of
a
willingness
to
explore
Alternatives
that
are
not
this
140
year
old.
N
Good
questions
or
good
good
thoughts.
Let
me
let
me
try
to
dig
in
if
it's
helpful,
so
efficiency.
Let's
start
with
efficiency,
I
think
on
the
slide.
You
said
it's
only
three
percent
efficiency
game,
but
it's
actually
a
10
efficiency
game
because
you
go
from
25
26
to
29,
it's
more
like
a
10
Improvement
in
the
plant,
which
is
not
nothing.
That's
a
decent
Improvement
for
a
solid
fuel
plant.
N
If
you
look
at
solid
fuel
electric
plants,
whether
you're,
looking
at
biomass
or
coal,
we're
really
kind
of
within
the
realm
of
normal
around
the
country.
If
you
use
a
combined
cycle
natural
gas
plant
to
generate
electricity,
it
can
be
up
to
60
efficient
I'm,
not
aware
of
a
lot
of
biomass
electric
plants
that
are
that
efficient.
N
But
efficiency
is
not
the
only
metric,
because
if
we're
only
worried
about
efficiency,
solar
is
not
that
efficient
solars,
you
know,
can
be
in
the
teens
or
maybe
the
20s
in
terms
of
its
ability
to
convert
energy
into
useful
electricity
efficiency
is
an
interesting
metric.
It's
not
the
only
metric
right.
So
so,
let's
you
know
kind
of
put
aside
that
for
a
moment
you
know
we
would
have
a
decent
Improvement
in
efficiency.
It's
still
within
the
realm
of
what
a
solid
fuel
plant
is
it's
not
a
liquid
or
a
gaseous
plant.
N
N
N
We
we
talked
to
the
hospital
every
other
customer
we
can
about
geothermal.
The
challenge
is,
if
you're,
looking
at
a
load
like
the
hospitals,
there
is
no
geothermal
or
heat
pump
technology
that
works,
and
when
we
talk
about
spending
that
money
that
Capital
money,
it's
not
ours
to
really
focus
on
necessarily,
but
let's,
let's
just
play
it
out
anyway,
because
not
taxpayer
dollars,
but
it's
still
an
important
investment.
Like
you
said
the
only
two
options
that
exist
to
decarbonize.
N
If
you'll
grant
me
the
term
the
load
at
a
building,
you
know
campus,
like
the
hospital
with
today's
technology,
would
be
the
district
heating
system
or
purchasing
renewable
gas.
You
know
which
you
can
do
through
bgs.
Nobody
has
explained
to
me
any
other
project
and
I've
looked
into
this.
That
would
do
what
we're
trying
to
do
at
the
hospital
at
the
scale,
we're
doing
it
and
potentially
at
the
University,
and
that's
just
that's
just
unfortunate,
like
you
know,
that's
the
fact.
N
If
you
could
do
a
geothermal
heating
system
that
would
meet
the
needs,
the
energy
needs
there.
I'd
be
all
over
that,
like
I
love
that
technology
I
have
been
a
supporter
of
that.
For
a
long
time,
bed
has
been
a
supporter.
We
even
have
a
person
on
staff
who
has
particular
expertise
on
geothermal
and
how
helped
with
the
system
that
was
put
in
at
Champlain
College,
so
we're
we're
all
in
on
that.
We
helped
us
develop
a
new
program
for
geothermal
test,
Wells
and
I.
N
Think
geothermal
could
be
part
of
the
mix
too
at
campuses
like
the
hospital
or
or
other
campuses.
It
just
can't
do
what
the
district
heating
system
is
going
to
do.
They
could
work
and
complement
potentially
to
each
other,
so
that
right
now
is
the
question
is:
if
do
you
want
to
keep
using
gas?
Do
you
want
to
use
renewable
gas?
Do
you
want
to
do
District
heating?
If
we
want
to
get
that
fossil
fuel
use
off
off
the
table?
And
that's
that's
that's
why
we're
grappling
with
it?
The
way
we
are
it's
not
a.
N
It
was
some
when
I
became
general
manager
in
2018.
The
question
I
got
at
the
press
conference
was:
what
are
you
guys
doing
about
District
energy?
When
are
you
going
to
get
it
done?
How
do
you
guys
like
get
off
your
butts
and
go
get
it
done?
And
it's
interesting
because
now
we're
kind
of
on
the
cusp
of
bringing
a
project
forward
and
we're
hearing
from
people
like?
N
N
But
for
all
the
80s
stuff,
like
this
technology,
still
works
like
it's
working
around
the
world,
we
did
a
webinar
with
folks
in
Sweden,
Canada,
St,
Paul
Minnesota,
that
are
using
this
as
a
climate
solution
in
their
communities,
and
these
are
forward-looking
communities
that
are
trying
to
do
some
of
the
stuff
we're
doing
so.
I
completely
respect.
You
know
people
having
different
opinion,
but
that's
just
some
insight
of
what
we
are
thinking
about,
but
we,
like
geothermal,
we
like
solar,
like
we're
all
in
on
that
stuff,
so.
A
If
geothermal
could
be
part
of
the
mix,
why
is
the
choice
not
to
install
geothermal,
to
be
part
of
of
the
mix
and
have
that
be
the
first
step?
I
am
quite
sure
that
new
technology
is
in
development.
Everyone
in
the
world
knows
that
we
need
to
get
off
of
fossil
fuels,
except
for
a
couple
entities
who
will
not
be
named
in
this
room.
Sure
we
I
think
we
have
a
good
chance
of
getting
new,
better
technology
in
the
time
it
might
take
us
I
I
don't
make
the
project
timelines.
A
You
do,
but
I
I
just
don't
understand
why
we
wouldn't
choose
what
I
think
is
so
obviously
a
better
and
more
long-lasting
option.
I
I
can't
say
that
I
understand
why
we
aren't
committing
to
McNeil
if
we
commit
to
this
project,
because
if
McNeil
continues
to
have
the
technology
that
it
does
like,
if
we're
bringing
it
up
to
speed,
then
that's
a
huge
amount
of
money
for
an
upgrade.
Then
we've
already
got
the
steam
pipe.
N
So,
in
terms
of
It
kind
of
goes
to
your
question
too,
like
the
physical
footprint
of
the
system,
you
have
you're
limited.
Unless
you
want
to
expand
the
footprint
the
Technologies
you
use
within
the
system,
you're
not
necessarily
limited,
now,
geothermal
heating,
as
we
know
it
in
Vermont,
which
is
different
than
like
producing
electricity
out
west
is
it's
a
ground.
Source
heat
pump
and
any
heat
pump
is
not
producing
energy.
N
It's
taking
either
colder
particles
of
air
and
bringing
them
in
or
taking
you
know,
warmer
particles
and
bringing
them
in
you
know,
and
depending
on
the
season,
and
obviously
with
ground
Source
geothermal
we're
benefiting
from
the
Earth's
constant
temperature
during
colder
Seasons
we
can
bring
in
warmer
air,
it
does
not
produce
steam
like
the
hospital
uses
at
their
campus
at
the
scale
that
the
hospital
uses.
That's
why
it's
not
a
primary
option.
In
this
scenario,
neither
is
an
air
source
heat
pump.
N
Now
those
Technologies
might
develop
I
hope
they
do
and
if
there
are
options
to
integrate
with
the
district,
Energy
System,
there's
nothing
preventing
you
from
doing
that.
In
fact,
that's
the
kind
of
neat
thing
is
it's
an
it's
a
network
of
infrastructure,
it's
not
dependent
on
any
particular
type
of
Technology.
You
know
if
McNeil
was
converted
to
some
better
Renewable
Fuel
10
years
from
now
they
could
still
produce
steam
you,
you
can
run
it
on
that.
Geothermal
has
been
mixed
in
with
other
District
heating
system
applications
and
in
St
Paul.
N
What
we
heard
during
the
webinar
was
they
kind
of
started
with
one
thing,
and
then
they
were
able
to
add
stuff
over
time
and
continue
to
make
better
use
of
it.
So
I'm
not
I'm,
not
unconvinced
that
10
years
from
now,
if
we
had
this
system
in
place,
you
couldn't
add
a
geothermal
component.
That
would
add
a
meaningful
energy
piece.
A
N
In
fact,
it
actually
is
starting
off
with
another
heat
Source:
it's
not
just
McNeil
steam,
it's
designed
with
an
electric
boiler
as
well.
Now,
when
we're
talking
about
electric
boiler,
this
is
like
a
resistance
electric
boiler.
It's
the
older
technology,
but
it
produces
Steam
and
it
runs
off
of
our
grid.
So
it'd
be
a
10
megawatt
electric
boiler.
The
challenge
there,
because,
like
people
say
why,
don't
you
just
do
that
like?
Why?
N
Don't
you
just
do
an
electric
boiler,
because
it's
the
resistance
technology,
not
the
heat
pump
technology,
which
can
be
like
3x,
more
efficient
you're,
not
going
to
be
able
to
run
that
economically
against
Natural
Gas,
more
than
maybe
10
to
20
percent
of
the
time
of
the
year,
folks
may
have
seen
in
Jay
Peak.
There
was
a
project
where
they
put
an
electric
boiler
and
they
use
propane
for
their
Energy.
N
Propane
is
way
more
expensive,
so
they're
able
to
run
that
boiler
a
little
bit
more
of
the
time
plus
they're
in
a
part
of
the
regional
grid,
where
we
have
a
lot
of
wind
and
it's
not
necessarily
being
used,
and
we
don't
have
the
capacity
to
export
it.
It's
called
The,
Sheffield,
Highgate
interface,
export
interface,
so
they're
able
to
use
that
boiler
to
soak
up
some
of
that
wind
energy.
N
That's
available,
that's
not
being
able
to
be
utilized
and
to
displace
propane,
much
better
economic
scenario
than
we
have
in
Burlington,
where
you're
competing
with
natural
gas.
But
so
yes,
the
initial
design
is
you'd,
have
the
electric
boiler
as
a
supplemental
source
and
the
McNeil
steam
is
a
primary
source,
and
then
you
can
integrate
other
sources
as
you
go.
Nothing
preventing
you
from
doing
that.
N
A
N
Don't
think
we've
actually
made
a
proposal
to
the
interval
Center
for
a
cost
to
hook
up
the
system.
The
Intervale
Center,
the
you
know
if
they
develop
some
new
buildings,
there'd
be
a
potential
to
connect
to
that
condensate
line.
The
return
line,
the
hot
water
line,
but
they're
they're
kind
of
a
little
further
out.
So
we
don't,
we
don't
actually
have
a
proposal
to
them
on
what
it
would
cost
to
hook
up
to
the
system.
They'd
be
a
potential
partner
down
the
road,
but
they're
not
kind
of
an
immediate
customer.
N
But
let
me
state
it
clearly,
because
this
is
a
key
point.
It
kind
of
goes
to
the
questions
we've
been
talking
about.
If
this
doesn't
make
some
economic
sense
for
the
customers,
they're
not
going
to
do
it
and
if
they
don't
do
it,
we're
not
going
to
bring
it
to
city
council,
we're
not
trying
to
move
this
through
just
to
move
it
through.
It
only
makes
sense
if
it
helps
the
customers
who
need
the
energy
who
want
to
move
off
of
fossil
fuels
in
a
way.
That's
economically,
you
know
competitive
and
beneficial.
N
N
It's
been
our
position
from
day
one.
If
there's
no
customer
interest,
we
won't
move
the
project
forward
and
in
previous
iterations
of
District
T
that
were
designed
and
studied,
but
never
kind
of
engineered.
The
customers
weren't
there
either
because
the
technology
didn't
match
what
they
needed
like
it
was
a
hot
water
system,
but
they
needed
steam
or
the
economics
weren't
there.
So
this
is
the
version
of
the
project.
That's
gotten
the
furthest,
because
it's
been
responsive
to
some
of
those
concerns.
I
think.
N
Be
there
in
the
future,
you
know
so,
basically
those
could
be
the
first
yeah
a
couple
customers
you
could
have
the
Intervale
Center
or
you
know
think
about
any
anybody
along
the
line
of
that
route.
That
I
showed
on
the
map,
the
condensate
return.
Anybody
could
potentially
hook
up
to
it
you're
going
to
get
more
bang
for
your
buck.
If
it's
a
you
know,
building
that's
using
more
energy
because
you
can
displace
more.
E
N
J
N
L
L
No
just
like
happening
of
things
here,
pointing
kind
of
getting
into
what
what
Andy
said
about
the
talking
past
each
other
like
the
missing
each
other
and
I'm
like
in
an
interesting
position.
We're
like
I'm,
not
in
energy
engineer,
but
I
am
an
engineer
and
I
did
for
a
time.
Work
at
an
energy
company
I
understand
a
lot
of
what
you're
talking
about
and.
G
L
So
I
can
hear
on
both
sides.
Like
you
know,
I'm,
you
know,
I
would
say
that
I'm,
you
know
generally
more
on
the
side
of
like
stop
biomass
and
like
how
do
we
get
off
of
fossil
fuels
as
quickly
as
possible.
But
I
can
also
understand
from
an
engineering
perspective,
why
that's
not
possible
in
for
mathematical
and
economic
reasons,
and
so
what
I
would
like
to
kind
of
just
propose
to
the
community
to
think
about
is
like
the
the
problem
that
it
seems
to
me.
L
But
then
that
becomes
a
problem.
What
do
we
do
at
the
hospital?
What
do
we
do
these
things?
It's
like
to
kind
of
again
put
that
out
to
the
community
to
think
about
how
do
we
move
forward
in
the
long
term
if
we
are
living
in
certain
ways
and
we
are
having
certain
buildings
that
are
not
currently
compatible
with
the
climate
visions
that
we
have
for
ourselves
and
to
kind
of
like
I,
don't
know,
give
a
little
bit
of
something
kindness
to
the
engineering
perspective.
B
Ask
you
know
why
why
would
UVM
be
heating
their
building?
Maybe
if
that's
the
primary
thing
to
do
the
space
heating
with
stream?
Why
are
they
not
using
hot
water?
Why
are
they
not
using
individual?
You
know
heat
pump
type
systems
so
yeah.
Maybe
it's
just
that.
Well,
we
have
this
established
structure
that
that's
the
way
that
it
is
and
that's
the
kind
of
input
that
we
need.
N
The
steam
I
I'm,
not
an
expert
on
the
medical
profession
but
I,
understand
that
you
need
certain
quality
steam
in
a
medical
center
like
that
not
only
for
energy
use
but
for
process
Steam,
and
things
like
that.
So
it
may
be
that
it's
not
really
easy
to
replace
that
use
in
a
medical
facility
that
has
to
have
reliable
energy
and
just
to
piggyback
off
of
your
comment
for
a
moment.
I
don't
support
this
project
because
of
any
engineering
aspect.
In
fact,
I'm,
not
an
engineer
I'm
a
lawyer,
I
I,
don't
support
it.
N
For
that
reason,
I
don't
support
it
for
because
of
any
other
reason
other
than
and
I'll
come
at.
This
sincerely
and
folks
can
disagree
with
me,
I
believe
it's
better
for
the
climate
than
the
alternative
that
exists.
If
I
didn't
think
that
I
wouldn't
be
here,
I
wouldn't
I,
wouldn't
come
and
I
know.
Folks
are
going
to
disagree
when
we
come
with
this
I
wouldn't
put
myself
through
that.
If
I
didn't
think
it
was
actually
a
better
project.
N
From
a
climate
standpoint,
I
spent
my
entire
career
working
on
climate
I've
worked
on
policy
at
the
state
of
Vermont
I
work
for
our
Senator
Bernie
Sanders
in
D.C
on
climate
policy.
If
I
thought
that
this
was
going
to
increase
carbon
emissions,
I
would
not
be
here
now
I've
presented
information
around
that
folks
can
easily.
You
know,
come
to
their
own
conclusions
and
disagree
and
I
respect
that
too.
But
we're
not
just
trying
to
solve
an
engineering
problem
like
we're
actually
trying
to
be
part
of
the
climate
solution.
Relative.