City of Portsmouth, New Hampshire Economic Development Commission, 16 Jun 2023

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From YouTube: 6.16.2023 Economic Development Commission

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6.16.2023 Economic Development Commission

A

Welcome everyone to uh friday morning june 16th economic development commission uh thank.

B

You everybody for joining us on somewhat of an off cycle meeting. I know we're generally.

B

The first friday and a couple of folks have some scheduling, conflicts uh and haven't been.

B

Able to join, but I appreciate everyone being able to get here today, um our primary business.

B

For today is going to be outdoor dining, but uh before we get that far, I would like to.

B

Review the minutes from our may meeting.

B

Comments or questions I'll entertain those now otherwise entertain a motion to approve.

B

Motion to approve the minutes, we have a second second, all in favor. Any opposed great thanks.

B

Everybody so for our standing agenda items uh first up, we've got our land use liaison on.

B

Bob, I know yep, I think that's primarily you uh uh the last meeting.

C

I'll boil down the two and a half hours to uh just a few seconds here. It was what we did was.

C

We came up with four properties that the city owns that we felt were worth looking.

C

Into for housing, development and those were the city hall lot, uh the lot out at.

C

um Atlantic heights and the former skate park and the sherburne school.

C

And we sent that information to city council for them to work on further. Do maybe do engineering.

C

And see what the viability of each of those lots is and uh contrary to what you might have read.

C

In the seacoast online there was no ranking, we didn't say: sherburne is number one. There.

C

Might have been comments by someone that they thought that that was the best fit, but we never.

C

Did a vote and ranked them so in my opinion, we gave them the four properties, and that was it.

C

Yeah other than that, that's all we were tasked to do great questions or anything.

B

And so it I would say at this point is that the council going to be taking next.

B

Steps on identifying selection, yeah and then maybe karen can weigh in on that.

C

Our events yeah that yeah go ahead. Oh yeah, I mean we've, we've been looking at it and I.

D

Think that we're making plans to move ahead. um I don't, I don't know all the details, but.

D

um I think the primary focus is the pan away area the um the school there and.

D

There are other good sites too, but they, but they can only do one at a time apparently, and so it's.

D

uh I don't know, do you have more than that? The the next step in the process of conversations.

E

And studies involves a presentation at june 20th council meeting by folks from the pha limited.

E

Development limited the group, that's that's the adjunct. The development arm, not the operational.

E

Arm, I believe it's tom farini and kathy bergeron and someone else in my whose name escapes me and.

E

They'll be presenting their preliminary study for what they understand to be the.

E

The the pros and cons and the and the material situation relative to the site at sherman school.

C

There was some discussion and question about whether uh pha should be the partner or whether we should look for other developers.

C

I mean, in my opinion, uh pha kind of keeps the money in the community. So if you know if.

C

There are extra funds from a project they're going back into portsmouth they're, not going.

C

Somewhere, portland maine or wherever so just but that's, I guess we'll probably be.

C

Discussed further yep and mr chairman, the third presenter from pha limited, will be adam ruudick.

E

So those three will be there next tuesday evening.

B

Great good update, I know, we've got um ben on next and you've got uh some time conflict this morning.

B

So we're going to throw a team for the chamber collaborative update, yeah sure I I don't have.

F

uh Much to update this morning, we are um in a relatively quiet time of year, when the city gets.

F

Busy we slow down um because the the work is not needed to fill our restaurants and retail shops.

F

um So it's kind of a quiet time of year. For us we we are spending a lot of time doing.

F

um Some significant planning uh putting together a three-year strategic plan. We just had our retreat.

F

On that looks, like um you know, continue to do some of the work that we've been doing these past.

F

Couple years with a significant focus on large community issues, including housing and child care,.

F

And education and connectivity to to the business community in those areas. So that's really where.

F

That seems to be heading along with some dei focus as well, so things are looking good we're putting.

F

All our plans, together for this coming fiscal year, our fiscal year, wraps up here in about two.

F

Weeks so we're in the throes of on the fiscal year stuff. But things like restaurant week for.

F

The fall all or well underway, in planning in a variety of things. I think I've mentioned before.

F

We do have the street life 400th version this summer on august 15th on congress street. That.

F

Event is uh sold out with a waiting list at 900 people, so it's going to be quite the to do quite.

F

The celebration for the business community of 400 years of commerce in portsmouth and we're excited.

F

About that so that'll be tuesday august 15th and we appreciate the partnership with the city.

F

To work through all the logistical planning of that process, that's it for me great! Thank you. Ben.

B

And got sean on next to the office of economic development. Sure thanks well, just a couple of.

G

Updates out last week ago, tuesday, we had a small business event at 3s art space and all.

G

The feedback was pretty positive. There was we basically set up a couple of panels to to share.

G

Their stories and answer questions such that the small businesses in the room would hear.

G

From other small businesses like them, as opposed to myself or others, so all indications was that.

G

Was valuable time there were long panels. I was a little concerned. They were an hour each, but.

G

The time got filled out and there was a lot of conversation, so we did that in partnership.

G

With the sba and with the chamber- and there was a lot of good information from the sba regarding.

G

Financing so I thought that sounded particularly helpful for small businesses, who may not know.

G

About that or just haven't had time to look into that, and my guess is it was so popular. We might.

G

Try to make that an annual event, but it was, it was kind of said. You know why is portsmouth a.

G

Great place for small business, either starting one or having one or growing one and was good.

G

Good start to a conversation, the only other two items I'll give you is the the after the americas.

G

For the arts survey, I believe all the collection is wrapped up in terms of interviewing attendees.

G

And also interviewing the arts venues, so the after folks have that information. I think we're going.

G

To get some initial data back in the fall, but the big presentation will be closer to the end of the.

G

Year, where they will actually come here and have open sessions to present the impact of the arts on.

G

Our on our economy so stay tuned for that. If you have specific questions, please reach out to me.

G

And the last thing is we: we signed a contract for for the consultant for the cultural plan process.

G

That was signed on monday. I've already started, sending them background information and we're.

G

Hoping to get that kicked off very early july with the first session, where the consultants.

G

Come here meet with the cultural planning subcommittee and it will be a all hands on.

G

Deck to the end of the year to deliver a cultural plan to city council. So lots of lots of things.

G

Taking shape and moving forward in addition to what we're doing here, excellent questions.

G

Thanks phil, okay and we've got one of our city councilors here with us today,.

B

So councilor lombardi do you want to yeah? I I.

D

The the adc ordinance process has moved forward, and so I thought I would take my.

D

Time today to deal with that, I know um we just received that this morning it's.

D

um As far as we are concerned, or I am concerned, um I think it's ready to go so there were some there.

D

Are some changes that from legal and the from the governance committee who both reviewed this.

D

And have edited it a couple of things that were corrected, one one was the you know the interaction.

D

Between staff and the commission is that, um like this is a commission of a city council, so there.

D

Is a protocol of dealing with the city manager and not dealing directly with staff, so that was.

D

Changed within the the verbiage of the document to address that um a couple other things: let's see.

D

uh I think I think that was a pretty major legal thing. There there's a lot of they. They combined.

D

Some paragraphs- and you know I won't read through them and go through that and they just made some.

D

Minor changes in legal and chair I'd like to request that if city councilors update.

H

Is specific to the outdoor dining ordinance that we have that as part of that conversation.

H

That's already on the agenda, or are we moving to that now? I'm just yeah I'm trying to get.

D

Through this just quickly, and then I think we're just going to deal with it, so there are no other.

H

Updates that you have other than related to the ornaments, I just wanted to clarify.

D

So I think it's pretty self-explanatory. I expect that this will come will now be put.

D

On the agenda of the city council and we'll move forward at the at their next meeting july, 10th.

B

I think it will review this and stay tuned on the july 10th meeting, and would the council like us.

B

Present to uh not hand for any comments, questions that might be useful to have someone here.

D

Yeah, okay, thank you very much for that appreciate the work you put in there. I appreciate the work.

D

That the committee did absolutely yeah tom watson did a great job leading us through.

B

That so thank you to tom, okay, and then next is the core of our conversation for today. So.

B

um Why don't we turn the page to our outdoor dining discussion, uh so this was referred to.

B

Us by the council earlier this year after some internal discussions that the council had and.

B

Trying to formalize the um what had been operated for the last few years on on the policy basis.

B

Somewhat a temporary basis, as the council I believe, was working towards trying to formalize.

B

An ordinance and create some more certainty both for the retailers, business, community and.

B

The restaurant so that everyone could operate on a more defined basis, moving forward so.

B

We formed a smaller working group to to digest um all of the information that had been provided to.

B

Us over the from the past few years, that group consisted in weidman allen, myself, anna howard.

B

And everett, and I'm and ben also as well, um and I'm not sure if ben is still with us, they were. I.

B

Just minimized the box, so the intent with that was to distill down what we had available to us. Take.

B

Some of the feedback that we'd heard that we both know had been presented to the council. I have past.

B

Readings and try to um bring a plan back to this full commission for a more meaningful, complete.

B

Discussion based on that, and so that's what I'm hoping we can do here today, what our primary.

B

Goals were to try to come up with something that was as equitable as possible, recognizing that.

B

um Based on certain locations of businesses, it's it's unique where there may or may not be parking.

B

May or may not be travel lanes and sidewalk and everyone's impact is somewhat different.

B

Trying to address that and provide some uniformity, and we can get into further.

B

Detail, I think, and prepared a slide so that we can kind of walk through with some of our.

B

Feedback, so without further ado, why don't we jump into that and then get into questions and.

B

Comments that the commission has, and after that I open it up to public comments. Great thank you.

I

Phil I put together a deck that really kind of illustrates the topics the different categories.

I

That we talked about in our working group, I think the easiest thing is, if I just sort of.

I

Roll through the whole thing, so you see the complete the complete thoughts that we had.

I

That could be recommendations to council and then maybe go back to the beginning and go.

I

Slide by slide, because each one is a different category and we could have conversation on the.

I

The second run through it does that, does that sound logical? It sounds perfect cool.

I

So next slide keeping in mind. This is to help inform the council, as they create an ordinance.

I

That would not go into effect until next year's dining season. We seem to have a habit of waiting.

I

Till spring, to make this happen, I know that our businesses would like to see it happen in the fall.

I

So they can plan better, so we're kind of trying to get on this this summer, so that something can get.

I

Put into an ordinance and let us move forward on a really early basis on this next slide.

I

So we're looking at a number of things: the safety and the flow of the vehicular and the pedestrian.

I

Traffic, I know the council had a hard time with standards of visual approach, appropriateness for.

I

The streetscape so we're going to give some ideas on that that they can use as references.

I

We're looking to create outdoor dining spaces, easily usable by people with disabilities and.

I

Though we're not going to specify as an actual fee number, we can help create a framework of reference.

I

For the fee committee to look at the first thing we looked at was traffic, the the planning board.

I

Did do their end of the year document? They made recommendations, we're kind of rolling.

I

With their same recommendations and not making any changes there, the one-way street recommendation.

I

And the two-way street recommendation, so that's that's kind of sitting, as is.

I

A butter approvals, the only one I could find this year there may be others is and I'll give.

I

You examples on these slides as we go through. Jumping j's is in front of the tattoo shop. He.

I

Would need- and I hope has full approval of the tattoo shop that would stay in place that that.

I

Front footage: you only have directly in front of your shop not in front of anyone else's shop.

I

And the length of the season that is happening this year is may 1 to indigenous people's day.

I

Everyone seems happy with that. We weren't offering to make any changes on that one.

I

There's a lot to look at on fees. This number, like, I said, isn't going to come from us. It's.

I

Going to come from the city council fee committee, we're putting recommendations out here, things.

I

They need to look at. We think there should be uniform pricing per square foot of usable city.

I

Space, whether it's sidewalk parking spaces or loading zones and just a reminder, no fractional.

I

Parking spaces allowed, so that would be if, if you have a half a parking space in front of your shop.

I

And the other half is in front of your butter. You can't use that half of a parking space where full.

I

Parking spaces only, but we would have the square footage of that parking space, be what the pricing.

I

Is coming from we'd like the fee committee to look at the lost parking revenue and the cost of the.

I

Jersey, barrier, installation and storage. But we also recognize that when you look at the parking.

I

Revenue numbers from 2020 until today, every year there are significant increases, so this program.

I

Is not negatively impacting the overall revenue number? The city continues to be popular people.

I

Continue to park, another consideration for the fee committee is the value of a parking space from may.

I

1 to october 9., it's, which is this year's dates october 9, is about 3517 dollars. We assume that we.

I

Recover a portion of that, if the driver parks at say, foundry garage, they're, going to pay a dollar.

I

An hour instead of the two dollars an hour on the street, but we're still recouping some of that.

I

This year, just for reference, our permit fees, are going to come in at around eighty thousand dollars.

I

And it looks like we're losing about 30 parking spaces this year to accommodate dining permits.

I

And next slide so then this is sort of a whole new category, the design standards and we feel.

I

Like the design standards, maybe aren't going to be baked into the ordinance. This is kind of up.

I

For discussion, but it feels like to put that in the ordinance something that, as our streetscapes.

I

Change every year, we don't want the city council to have to go back and change an ordinance. Every.

I

Year to accommodate something that's shifting on the sidewalk or the master plan happens or.

I

You know just needs change, so the thought is that we would have a design standards.

I

Document that rides along with this, but is not part of an ordinance. It's just referenced by.

I

The ordinance saying you know you will abide by the design standards document and and then that.

I

I, as I understand that, makes it a little more fluid and a little more easy to us to have us.

I

Morph the thing and so for design standards again we're looking to regulate safety and.

I

Flow of pedestrian traffic, we want to divine define a standard of visual appropriateness.

I

And again create outdoor dining spaces easily usable by people with disabilities.

I

The first thing that we looked at is furniture, not many changes here, we're just looking for.

I

Sturdy tables kind of logical things, tables made of metal or finish grade wood, sturdy recycled.

I

Materials tables should not exceed 30 inches in height. We are looking for tables that can.

I

Be used by people with disabilities, either by using movable seating, a 19 inch deep, taper top.

I

Table top overhang, that's an ada requirement or a table that has a space for a wheelchair.

I

And we'd like to see no advertisements or logos on umbrellas, the sidewalk barriers. These are.

I

This is not street. This is just sidewalk people. We want to see sturdy barriers like.

I

The freestanding sectional fencing, stanchions with rope or chain, if there's an opening like.

I

You see in the top picture at the access to the dining space should be no less than 44 inches. I.

I

Think everyone in town complies with that. It makes for very nice two-way traffic of pedestrians and.

I

We're looking to see materials that are meant to be barriers, not five gallon buckets or or tires.

I

Or pallets or things like that, I don't think we're seeing any of that in town, but not a bad.

I

Idea to just put this in the design standards so that we prevent that from happening in the future.

I

Then the next category is barriers used for parking spaces and travel lanes. This is primarily.

I

Jerseys, though we do allow some other alternate barriers, they would need approval from the city.

I

Planters can go on top of them, um yeah go back to that and then and there's safety standards on.

I

These you know, so I know that some of our dining areas wish that they didn't, as in this picture,.

I

I wish we didn't have to have barriers the whole length of that that we could do something prettier.

I

This is a city safe safety issue. It's not going to be the restaurant's decision, so.

I

Each individual restaurant will be evaluated for safety, whether they.

I

Can have something different like massimo has or something like jerseys like in this picture.

I

Platforms and parklets we are advising or recommending that platforms or parklets be used.

I

In every dining space, that's in a travel lane or a parking space, and what we're looking for here is.

I

To have our downtown, rather than looking like we're dining in parking spaces, we're.

I

Creating extended sidewalks and it starts to inform us what our downtown master plan.

I

Might be thinking about as they consider extended sidewalks the other thing when.

I

You add a platform in here or you've made this equitable for people of all.

I

Abilities a person using a wheelchair has no problem accessing these platforms or parklet.

I

Spaces, the platforms and parklets need to be flush with the curb no step up or down.

I

Build them out of something durable and any space is higher than 36 inches, as we required today.

I

Would need to be something primarily transparent or see-through, and that is that's basically, it.

I

So if we roll back to the beginning of it and maybe phil, maybe I lob this back to you to be our.

I

Our mc and talk about the specifics of each one of these categories- I guess starting with traffic.

B

So I think one of the things we heard uh fairly clearly was that.

B

um And this is in the plannings report back to the council. Safety is a main issue, so we didn't.

B

Look to make any changes one-way streets needed to maintain at least one full travel lane and two-way.

B

Streets needed to main maintain two traveling, so in other words, we wouldn't be able. We wouldn't be.

B

Recommending the reversal or closure of one lane on a currently two-lane street, I don't think that.

B

um Not a leap to say that, but I think there were certain instances we had heard of so I certainly.

B

Open that up for comment, questions from anyone on the commission, the one asked the risk that I.

B

Will say is one-way streets. I believe there's currently an exception. If there's less than 2.

B

000 cars a day a street could be closed. We've lowered that to a thousand.

B

um So that that could be applicable in select locations, but.

B

um Welcome any comments or questions folks have on that particular topic. Sarah do we know any.

H

Specific properties that would be impacted based on the reduction from two thousand to one thousand.

B

Profit counts, uh but I think to me that kind of defines its immaterial impact to a neighborhood.

B

If it's less than than that, okay, I think we could, I don't think it impacts. What's.

G

Been approved today, so I think it would it would yeah. I think I think that would be interesting as.

H

We go through. Where are we making recommendations that are in keeping what was either done for this.

H

Year or previous years, and where are we making changes and what are the reasons for those changes.

B

Good recommendation, whatever we present to the council, so impacts from 2023 to.

E

Let me move on from traffic.

B

So butter approval. I think that this was uh pretty clearly a response on our end.

B

To issues with a religion between retailers and restaurants, I think and trying to make it.

B

Fair and preserve visibility. I know it makes for difficult conversations between adjacent business.

B

Owners, if, if they're, maybe in conflict with each other, we certainly recognize that but want to be.

B

As fair as possible, I think there's there's some businesses that may be uh open and supportive to.

B

That recognizing that additional foot traffic may benefit them and also they're. Equally, maybe.

B

Folks, on the other side that that are hampered by that, so that's in this year's policy. We felt.

B

That that was pretty important and a big change from the past, and it also prevented additional.

B

Parking from being taken as other botters couldn't expand into streetscape that wasn't immediately.

B

In front of their storefronts as they extend out through parking and or travel lanes, so.

B

Feedback thoughts on that sarah first, I think, based upon the statements, anything that requires.

H

Approvals, reviews etc from the city would have to be renewed on an annual basis. Is that correct.

H

We should we should be specific about that approval about our.

B

Approval right that would be season to season okay, yeah.

B

Then that would provide that makes it kind of a living document, so you could.

B

Have a tenant that moves out and feels differently than yeah. I think anything.

H

Where, like city has to approve materials, a butter has to approve space, any sort of.

H

um Approvals that are necessary as a result of applying the ordinance.

H

Should be specified that they need to be approved on an annual basis yeah, I think.

B

Currently, part of procedure is that someone has to apply for their seasonal permit and pay. The.

B

Fee and then would have to give an inspection by the city ensuring that they comply with.

B

The plan that was improved, approved at the city so for layout, on ada compliance, etc. So.

B

That would be subject to annual approval and annual inspection operating, correct.

B

Councilman, yes, one of the things that the council had a discussion about were.

D

um Other than restaurants and the availability to retail stores, having the ability to use.

D

Space for their business- and I don't know if, if the committee looked at, that at all.

B

Great great question: I I had the same thought um and I believe with the about our approval, this.

B

Would prevent restaurants from taking over space in front of a retailer if they wanted to be able.

B

To utilize that space, but that would be done via a separate vehicle that already exists and that's.

B

A sidewalk um obstruction permit sidewalk um yep and yes, I I I would I'm going to say I'm going.

E

To think out loud for a moment and say that if a retail shop wanted to encumber tie up a.

E

Parking space in the same way that outdoor dining does I don't see that there's any issue with that.

E

We would allow for that correct. Well, I think, if yeah, if it's not written down, someplace and city.

G

Council says that that retailers should be treated similarly and have the same rights to lisa space. I.

D

Think that should language should be put in so that it's crystal clear to people right agreed.

D

Yeah right yeah, I mean this is very specific to outdoor dining right. That's why I right right. Yeah.

B

So I think we we viewed the task as an outdoor dining specific task, um but were the question did.

B

Come up, I think, if we wanted to formalize and fold that in I certainly put that back to the.

B

Group, we didn't really look to create this as an all-encompassing right retailer business city-wide.

B

Effort really specific to dining, because approval and compliance, I think, would be much different, but.

B

Further feedback from jacob um do all these approvals also um follow the same rules for.

J

Off street, so if they're on commercial island or if they're down the sidewalk near the whale.

J

Lot is that all is that the same kind of thing like you can't take a storefront's business if.

J

The restaurant is that is that the same kind of approval process or just for streets, I think it's.

B

Universal, so, if you're applying for an outdoor permit, it would be the same. It just depends which.

G

They're, both city properties, so you have to go through the across the process and if the.

G

Specifically for outdoor dining, whether it's on a sidewalk or on a street via.

G

Better approval is in place and that's what we're recommending.

C

This is for first floor only what, if someone has a business on the second floor.

B

Yeah great great and very fair question that did.

B

Come up after we kind of formulated the initial response and um I think.

E

In theory, it should be permeable, it should be, and there can also.

E

We also have living examples of where more than one business is.

E

um Kind of sharing, yeah geez louise and summer sessions, elephantine and cava. Those are the two.

E

That come to mind but know that neither of those include second floor businesses, but I.

E

Think if it's something a second floor business wants to pursue, we can certainly permit that.

B

And are you saying that in terms of usage of space or a butter approval usage, probably I guess either.

C

I was thinking usage yep. Somebody wants to cut hair down in a parking space.

C

There's nothing in the in the portsmouth feed co rerun space now, but there also.

E

Has to be consideration for entrances to residential access to so we are when we.

E

Inspect and approve plans. We are mindful of that.

E

Yeah well any more questions or comments on that or.

E

I don't like this season so length of season. um I think, based on what what has been seen.

B

So far this year in the past several years, I think from a seasonality, perspective and.

B

In order to preserve the city's ability to clear the streets and be able to maintain.

B

Them in winter season and based on utilization on the restaurants, we're not recommending any.

B

Material change to what currently exists, um I think that's important given winters here.

B

But I think there there was a concept um asked about for kind of year round.

B

um I think I think that has issues in terms of what we're recommending here for.

B

Parklets and requirements, if you're occupying street space or anything off sidewalk, um but.

B

Certainly put that to the group for for commentary on time of year yeah, I guess it's my my view that.

K

We should be looking at this specifically for the outdoor dining period this may 1 into october, but.

K

I think the point was well made that there is a separate issue to look at it. Sort of year-round.

K

Activation but I would recommend that we look at that as a separate working group.

K

I was going to make a similar suggestion where there are areas that we we believe are out of.

H

Scope with the tasks that we have, we may want to have an additional considerations that supplements.

H

This that says exactly that, if I can add to the conversation when the market square revisioning.

E

Effort starts to take shape the master plan, the market square area. I would think it would be.

E

Appropriate to take up this consideration and to have edc representation on that.

E

Part of that steering committee. So let's keep that in mind. Thank you. Any more comment on yeah.

B

Be consideration, um I think we kind of view this uh from a holistic perspective on the positive.

B

Contribution outdoor dining makes, but also recognizing that taking a parking space offline.

B

For this period obviously impacts the revenue we're collecting for for parking. For that specific.

B

Space, I think it's um something that that we kind of grapple with and and the way we're approaching.

B

This is that this big consideration is something you feel best determined on an annual basis by the.

B

Fee committee, in recognition of recommendations, we're making and determining what that figure is.

B

um I think it needs to be fluid. You know we live in an inflationary time and I think our terms of.

A

Balancing everything that group would be best suited to make that determination, rather than.

B

Formalize it in an ordinance and have that be a static number or have to have that be amended.

B

Every year so, and then with that um thinking that uniform pricing would be the most equitable way.

B

To approach it um for any on-street parking, space, usage, travel, lane, usage and or sidewalk usage, so.

B

We're also getting an equal benefit to a sidewalk space being used, which also further offsets any.

B

Receipt deficit for lack of parking income for a parking space if somebody's using the sidewalk.

B

This is probably one of the bigger changes, but also helps provide some uniformity.

B

Overall, throughout the city to everybody and um certainly recognize that the the.

B

Fees we have in place date back to, I believe the original outdoor cafe policy from 2012.

B

So um certainly has been a time where we've allowed groups to benefit from the.

B

Reduced fees over the course of covid in response to economic climate, but I think.

B

At this point, we feel like there should be some increase in ensuring that we're.

B

They're more covered for the parking space being offline during the season and also the cities cost.

B

For jersey, barrier, relocation in additional time for inspections and other implementation.

B

And tracking of this on a permanent basis, quick clarification. The next to last bullet point is.

K

That 3517 um an all-in number for lost revenue for those parking spaces. That's an average among.

E

The different zones, as I understand it, that's not that's not the total of lost revenue for.

K

The parking or is it that's- per space, that's perfect per space. That's average between the.

E

Zones got it. Thank you because it recognizes um there's turnip well yep understood that ben's got.

E

His crazy formulaic way of figuring things out, yeah yeah, but the different zones for that time.

G

Frame it's the best yeah. I just wanted to look at the the total number you know. So that's 111 five.

K

In terms of dollar amount, you know, and I was looking for the offset between permitting and.

K

uh You know alternate parking for what it's worth there are there are. There were typically.

E

59 to 60 some odd parking spaces utilized in the last few years, right now by my account.

E

There are 33 spaces that are utilizing outdoor dining, so that's the reduction.

L

Right and to be fair right, the 3517 helps offset the loss of parking right, but it.

L

Doesn't reimburse the city for staff time right to do inspections, review uh registrations and or.

L

Install or remove bearings right and parking revenue goes to the parking fund and the other.

E

Items are paid for out of the general fund right, so there's so if there's discussion.

L

About well, it's, it seems high, or it seems you know it doesn't fully reimburse the city first revenue.

L

Yep, council, lombardi yeah, I I don't have the numbers, but it seems to me that in bends.

D

um Presentation of the revenues that we actually our revenues increase during.

D

This period last year, parking revenues increased last year, in spite of losing.

D

Revenue's for a specific parking spaces, so people were diverted to garages.

D

Just it draws people in um it was also the first full year of stay.

E

And pay where yeah, you can stay where you were, but you had to increase what you paid.

B

Great yeah, thank you really good point. Bob yeah, I think the you know the problem is in trying to.

C

Trying to figure out a cost that we're just looking at you know: what do you lose for a parking.

C

Space, but I think the maybe the bigger issue and what we might hear from later today, is that.

C

um You know: what's the cost, to the people who lose the parking spaces, whether it's another.

C

A retailer or someone that lives up on the third floor and they can't park there.

C

Anymore and it's you know, it's sort of like parking is kind of the common area of the.

C

Condominium complex of downtown, and so if a number of residents or.

C

Occupants are using more of that common area, but everyone's paying for it. It's just there's an.

C

Imbalance there and I don't know how you I don't know how you charge for that or calculate them.

M

One of the problems and I'm kind of piggybacking is jersey. Barriers are incredibly not movable. You.

M

They're removed so a restaurant or retail or whoever's using is to uh can't um remove the.

M

Jersey barriers, when they close, they can't remove them on tuesday or monday and tuesday, when they're.

M

Closed so that, I think I think with bob- and I are both saying- is there's this lost opportunity that.

M

Can't be uh distilled down into fee considerations and and what's going what's going on.

M

Along with that, I think may 1st is probably looking at this is probably a generous starting.

M

Date too, I spend a lot of time. Outdoors may 1st is not a great time to be at home, tours.

M

In in new hampshire, we could probably push that back to something closer to june, um but anyways.

B

Any more thoughts on the parking impact aspect of that anne. Well, I I always see the the perimeter.

I

Parking meaning like foundry garage or what you're pushed to makes people walk a little more, and I.

I

Know when I walk down congress street, if I park at foundry, I'm popping into the retail shops more so.

I

That walkability, that we're pushed into when we're not parking in front of the store. We're going to.

I

Sometimes makes dollars come out of my wallet, so we need to consider that too.

I

I know cities see that as best practice to not put your parking garage right.

I

In the center of town, you put it on the edge, so you know a lot of balls anymore.

L

But excuse me, the comment, though, would be is in, is, and did a lot of research on this.

L

And could you speak to what other communities pay or charge for parking uh in their their.

L

Outdoor dining, I should say what what their fee structure was um is anna is anna howard.

I

Still on, I think, anna, I think she peel off. uh She looked. I don't have it in front of me. She.

I

Looked at four or five communities to sort of compare: do you have that in front of understand.

I

um And we don't have it in front of me anne, but I remember.

N

Square foot arm b was between two and ten in depending on our town. I think we'll look at five.

O

Or six pounds I think portland maine was a. I think it was an eighty dollar permit fee and two dollars.

I

A square foot I've got it here right. Application fee is a hundred dollars, uh five dollars a.

K

Square foot for newburyport portland is eighty four dollar uh plus two dollars a square foot.

K

um On a on public property in a city park same permit, 630 per square foot baltimore um no more.

K

Than ten dollars per square foot uh boston um you're first born. Oh sorry, I misread that.

K

um 199 or 399 each month, depending on whether the business has a liquor license.

K

So certainly, you know under any circumstance we're on the very, very low end of.

K

Some of the numbers, but uh you know kind of in line with say newburyport.

L

I would make the recommendation: we include that spreadsheet, with the consideration.

L

So that they can look and see. Oh that's a great idea. Jacob had a question. I was just.

J

um It seems that parking and access to those spaces seems to be the largest concern of the.

J

Retailers and personally as a downtown resident, who does the circle looking for parking, because I.

J

Don't have parking, I fully understand that um and I think the most frustrating comes from the time.

J

When the restaurant is closed and if you have an early morning appointment at one of those stores.

J

At 8 a.m, parking should be easy right. It's easy to am sure two three o'clock on a saturday you're, not.

J

Finding parking downtown anyway, and I also think that if you need to go and look for a specific.

J

Store, if you can't find parking within 20 minutes, you're just going to leave town, I don't see going.

J

To foundry garage and walking in I just as you know, I I've done the loops and I'm like yeah, I'm.

J

Just gonna go park somewhere way far away, I'm just it's not worth it for me, so that seems to.

J

Be the largest point of frustration, and I just say I would agree with both the comments on this side.

J

um About that about the dates and yeah I wish jersey, berries were temporary, you could move them.

J

Back and forth and kind of make it more fluid, but obviously that's not the point of them so.

B

Sarah, I think the only other question related to parking is: is there consideration for leaving a.

H

Certain percentage of parking spots available for parking in an area- I don't know if that's.

H

Already part of the decision making process like, would we and would we allow say full of.

H

Butter approval full restaurant purchase of the space for the time frame to take.

H

Up all parking on a street, or should there be some percentage that is left.

E

I think it's fair to say we considered when loading zones were displaced, but I don't think the.

E

Consideration was for making sure a percentage of parking spaces or some some availability. Certain.

H

Area correct that that might be a way to alleviate some of the shared concerns around residents or.

H

Retailers, if we ensure there's some degree of parking that remains as a result of the program.

B

B

Let me keep going yep.

E

I'm sleeping now hold on oh now, we're flying okay.

H

I have feedback on this one. I I don't think it's the edc's purview.

H

To make recommendations on design standards outside of traffic or pedestrian flow safety.

H

Or accessibility, I would be comfortable with shoulds and and should language as.

H

Opposed to must and shell interested in in other feedback on that, unless it's already.

H

Prescribed in another ordinance or another area that that's governed by city policy,.

M

I agree with sarah on that, and I also agree with what ann was saying about. uh Having this be a.

M

An exhibit or outside of bone, and so that it can be uh revised. um I had to I'm I'd really like to.

M

Hear what the hdc it's not! It's uh feels about this whole deck of slides. I used to deal with.

M

The htc a fair amount and downtown construction projects and additions, they're they're, typically.

M

Small projects- and I can remember being on field trips at night, discussing the tone and color.

M

Of awnings that were going on building, I mean incredibly detailed discussions about design and.

M

Design standards and a lot of times so a lot of this was in like the 2010 area a lot of times, they.

M

Were very subjective decisions they're extremely restrictive if we all stood up and walked downtown.

M

Right now to market square, the first thing you're going to see is a palapa straw umbrella and a bud.

M

Light umbrella behind it welcome to portsmouth, so I think we have. We have to have this in here.

M

And I think there are a lot of restaurants and retailers have done a fantastic job. But.

M

It's kind of like we have a bunch of a fantastic job and we have a lot of d as well. We don't have.

M

Enough that are more towards the a so somehow this has got to get in there, but the htc and our land.

M

Use boards make projects better in portsmouth and though it's can be cumbersome to go through those.

M

Boards they make better projects and I can't believe we're seeing what we're seeing today.

M

With an htc intact, the way we have it today, it is so uh far out from what I was used to when.

M

I was going through those htc reviews and field trips. It's a complete departure. It's nowhere close.

B

Thank you, and I I thank you for that honestly, knowing full well the ramifications of hdc in.

I

Our downtown it, it is what made me realize we need to have design standards most of.

I

The bullet points you see in here weren't just cooked up in a vacuum, most towns that.

I

Have outdoor dining have a design standards document and the language that are, you know.

I

It's it's it's loose and vague, we're not telling you what color your table needs.

I

To be, but we're telling you that it needs to accommodate a person who uses a wheelchair.

I

These are all things that many design standards in many cities have including historic cities similar.

I

To us, a lot of this came from alexandria, virginia their design standards and I think that's a pretty.

I

Similar downtown heavily touristed beautifully historic. How do you keep that our streetscapes.

I

And and not have the you know the logoed umbrellas or enclosures made out of pallets.

I

That's the goal here, so it's, it is a fine line of what can we ask people to do without.

I

Saying you need a queen anne leg on your picnic table, we're not asking for that, so it is more.

I

Keeping it safe, keeping it accessible and making it be out of materials that we like to see. These.

I

Things made out of does this? Would this would the design standards apply to privately owned.

H

Property, I'm thinking about like the decks. If they have logoed umbrellas, are they permitted to.

H

Use them because they own the space as opposed to city space like those are the considerations that.

H

I think we have to think about and not make undo hardship for for folks that take advantage of this.

H

As opposed to those that have their own property right, so if we are going to have design standards.

H

For outdoor space, I feel like they should be equitably applied. um My my, I think our thought.

B

And intent and anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but these design standards would be specific to.

B

People seeking for a permit annually to utilize public outdoor space, so if somebody owned their.

B

Own deck or patio and has certain furniture that is sufficient and they have a permit to operate.

B

On their own private property, if we're talking about hdc standards right those apply to both.

H

So that's why I just want us to be careful about where we're prescriptive and where we're not yeah.

A

Yeah moving on yeah sure.

B

Furniture, I think, to end point and comments made so far, um really best practices and.

B

Standards, I don't think much to add or or say, but certainly there's questions or comments.

B

um So, barriers, I think one thing we heard often um was the the um appetite for some.

B

Best design standards and distaste for jersey, barriers and also desire for uniformity, given.

B

Location in the historic district commission um in our historic city, so I think that's just.

B

Intended to provide some framework and definition around that um any questions or comments.

B

And again, this would be in a recommendation for design standards, not part of the formal ordinance.

B

Piece, I think for from from my perspective I think, and as ann knows, she and I we're on the reopening.

K

Committee and you know, and we're dealing with jersey barriers to get everything in place. Well,.

K

She knows great deal more about it than I do. I've certainly had enough of a taste, I think, to your.

K

Point andrew was starting with from an aesthetic perspective, was starting with baseline of.

K

A concrete block, that's primary goal, is to keep you know. Cars from jumping off.

K

Into other lanes, so I mean it's kind of a no pun intended a low barrier to.

K

Low barrier to entry, but I I think that if we could ask the city, I mean people don't even know.

K

What mechanism to see what kinds of alternatives there might be to provide adequate pedestrian and.

K

Dining safety that isn't this gigantic poured concrete, often chipped block. I think we did a.

K

Great job in the cte program did a fabulous job as well with the planters, and you know there.

K

Was you know legitimate euphoria and enthusiasm during covet times for all of this opening up, but.

K

Now, if you stop to walk down the street, you know you've got some the reflectors. Some of them are.

K

Dangling off some of them are not there. You know they're chipped, they're, they're, a nice color, but.

K

Certainly they're not you know, I wouldn't call them aesthetically pleasing. I would call them.

K

A practical and so, and I wonder if there is something in a longer term study to look at.

K

That might be an alternative. I think it's fair to say that the that the restaurants that are.

E

Obligated to use the most protective barriers, in this case the not so attractive concrete.

E

Ones are the same groups that are looking for some permanent outdoor dining and perhaps once.

E

This is established, they will make an investment that replaces them with something that our traffic.

E

Folks in our planning and our inspection folks are comfortable with from a safety.

E

Perspective but also look a whole lot better, so I think it's a chicken and egg thing agreed.

E

And our our long-term goal- and this will be this- the master planning of downtown.

I

The long-term goal is to readdress how we do dining in a perhaps expanded sidewalks kind of.

I

Way, right and fingers crossed lose the jersey barriers all of them. No one really loves them.

I

Right they do their job. I agree, I think, just a general comment and along that line I I'm really.

M

Glad you mentioned alexandria there. There are so many other municipalities going through this.

M

Not just nationally but globally and when we get to tenure, outlooks and master plans and 20-year.

M

Outlooks, I really would encourage council to look at great examples that we have in europe in sicily,.

M

And edinburgh, scotland, there's so many places for inspiration for streetscape outdoor dining.

M

A lot of them are in europe. London has some great examples of that, but I would encourage.

M

Us all, especially council, to not think this is the apportionment is the only one having this.

M

Problem and we can connect probably with time we can design our way out of jersey, barriers.

M

Yeah great point and I think currently they're required only on the leading edge where there is.

B

A requirement is that accurate no depends on something depends on. I think, there's traffic.

I

Flow things, a big guide that I feel like we've used since 2020, that our planning department.

I

Respects a lot is, is nacto national association of um city traffic officials like that that might.

I

Be it and they've got they have books on parklets, and these are all these all that their studies are.

I

8 10 years old, their books have been around for a while they've been doing parklets for a while.

I

Originally, the parklets were more like seating areas. It was 2020 when the parklets started.

I

To become dining areas, but all of their safety studies were in place and when you go to those.

I

They are very prescribed on the leading edge. What needs to be there, how high it needs to be, and then.

I

A lot of the long edge things um they really will tell you traffic flow. When do you need a jersey.

I

When do you not, and I think that portsmouth always leans on the let's be sure it's safe, you know they.

I

They expand upon, let's not take a chance here. You know massimo doesn't have jerseys on his long.

I

Edge but but goat and jumping jays do and that's you know, that's the safety standards coming in.

B

Okay, next slide: okay, so barrier heights.

B

Much of the conversation or commentary we just had.

B

Go to the next um while we're on this. I just want to mention that if you're.

E

Wondering where the heck, the plantering, the plantings are in the barrier planters.

E

They will be completed today and there are far fewer that are being used and.

E

Relying on the city to provide the plant so increasingly more restaurants are looking to.

E

Plant their own, so but the the planters that are accepting city plants will be done today.

I

Are the the barrier is 32 inches and the planter is 14., so I thought about this this morning. Yeah.

I

You know me- maybe that needs to be faked into this somewhere, that that two, not six.

E

Feet something less than six feet. Well, six. I think I have six feet that came from some other.

I

City somewhere six feet is the greenery. How tall can your plants get, how far off the sidewalk I I.

I

Don't know that in new hampshire we get plants that are that tall and maybe that doesn't even.

I

Need to be there we're not that successful! That could be in florida that your plants get that tall.

I

um But maybe we need to include the the height dimension for the planter boxes, yeah.

I

Those planter boxes by the way will be can be freestanding. That's the way.

I

The cde designed them so someday when there are no jerseys, we can repurpose.

I

Those planter boxes in on our sidewalks as freestanding planters, cool, which is cool.

B

Okay, so platforms parklets. This is a place where we do see some change from what exists now.

B

um And kind of uh spoke to that a little bit when we ran through the slides.

B

But I think this really to us made it feel more intentional. We recognized there would.

B

Be additional cost incurred for folks and open to comments on that, and certainly would welcome.

B

Feedback from those who would be impacted that don't currently have them, but we feel that it.

B

Adds a much more intention, intentionality and some additional uniform throughout the city.

B

um And I think we've seen the implementation of those has been very well.

B

Received by the community, but welcome any additional comments and one other thing I will.

B

Call out that that was sort of a change so you'll see the recommendation in the third bullet here.

B

um Platforms and parklets would be limited to an eight foot width from the curb. So I think where.

B

We would have a change from what exists now would be along the thirsty moose on congress.

B

Street, so the intent would be to maybe be able to preserve some additional um poland.

B

Parking uh right now, it's limited to parallel parking, so it would limit their usage from the.

B

Full width of those spaces as they're drawn but may be able to get some additional spaces back.

B

Comments questions, I would say one of the more elegant um uh of outdoor dining situations or yeah.

M

Is the one on the lower right, which is in front of von silent, yeah? That's right and my quick comment.

M

On that is, it would be a wonderful opportunity to do like a post-occupancy study next year on the.

M

Radius platform, um so that that could inform the master planning for where the permanent, much like.

M

We're doing with some of the traffic flow patterns where there's temporary bollards that then change.

M

Traffic flow and if it doesn't work you can take out those traffic bollards and or there are bike.

M

Lanes on metal street changed several times and there wasn't. uh There was the ability to do that.

M

Again, because of temporary bollards, but I think the way that post-occupancy study would happen.

M

Would probably involve video uh cameras and and how to study where people naturally congregate.

M

And how they flow on the side, for instance, that the closest part of the brick sidewalk to the deck.

M

You know that might be kind of a harsh edge. Maybe that needs to be backed off.

M

But you can tell, but just by the way people flow around spaces like that, but this this.

M

Is a great opportunity to do it, whereas I think it's less of an opportunity this year.

M

We're we're still, you know at grade eating on asphalt and with jersey, barriers around.

M

Us that this kind of doesn't feel like a natural as natural or comfortable condition. But some of.

M

These other ones are isn't that bottom right, one also shared with the pressures as well yeah. That's.

I

Not a good thing right, yeah right on the upper left is cheese. Louise and noah cafe and they're.

I

Sharing that space they were each, they were each applying separately and then got talking.

I

And realized they could make a nicer situation if they shared the space. I think they're separating.

I

It with just stanchions and chain or something in there, but they also serve different hours of the.

E

Day so there'll be one times when it's exclusively one and not the other it's going to, and you know.

I

We we can't, we can't inform this piece of it to restaurants, but it's really nice when a space.

I

Is activated like press room and vancilins the perfect example that they go from early in the.

I

Morning with von salin up through the evening hours with press room, so you don't have a time.

I

Of day, when you have stacks of chairs that are chained up waiting for five o'clock to open and.

I

That's what you're going to see at cheese, louise and noah, I think noah is more the breakfast and.

I

Lunch and cheese louise they have breakfast but they're heavier lunch and into I'm told quite.

I

Late night, I think you can get yourself a grilled cheese. I think there was a big frustration with.

E

Rudy's, um you can all remember back when there should be turf in a ball chairs and tables, and I.

E

Think we're trying to avoid that trying to avoid that and and the accessibility um you know my my.

I

Group of followers that use wheelchairs. They are anxiously awaiting to see something like this.

I

Happen so that they can get into every dining space in portsmouth, which would be really cool.

H

So I guess, based upon this recommendation, are there any spaces where jersey, barriers.

H

Would be the only option, or is this I'm not at least one edge? Yes, okay,.

H

So does the press room vonsil in space have a jersey barrier? um No, it does not. Okay.

K

Further down by the bridge, yeah them on the on the leading edge where the cars are direction.

G

Cars are coming yeah, oh okay, that would be the leading edge. Yes, yes, last year it was the plastic.

I

Water, one okay with the googly eyes, but this year it does not. So that might be good to add.

H

In here, because it wasn't clear to me that jersey barriers are still part of the platform or parklet.

H

Apartment, it's only where the traffic engineer feels that it's okay, appropriate yeah. Maybe we.

I

Need a bullet on on just on where those are right. Where are the lead? I think we have it.

I

On the slide before, where it's it's there, so it's the same thing that third bullet.

J

Suppose you can't cover the dirty barriers.

I

You can cover the jersey, thoughts comments on the that's. What cup of joe did the recommended.

B

Change on I'd say it's fair to say that this is a good example of the jersey or barriers.

E

Being in effect because the restaurant didn't seek to purchase new barriers right, it may.

E

May support use at the leading edge, but not all the way around yeah all right. That's it.

B

So that was a lot uh a lot covered. I appreciate all the thoughts and.

B

Feedback we're missing some other members of the commission today.

B

I think there was some additional comments and recommendations. We could supplement and circle.

B

Back to the whole see, I would like to hear from the public on what we discussed on this as well.

B

um And have a chance to come back as a full commission and review this and confirm with some.

B

Of the comments and questions brought up today and take into consideration what we're going to.

B

Hear this morning and what we may hear outside of this meeting as follow-up prior to making a formal.

B

Recommendation to the council, so there will be another opportunity for us to convene and discuss.

B

Any further comment before I invite our guests up to speak, one of the invisible problems of.

M

The outdoor dining and the decks the new, the uh the recommendation on the uh at grade decks is.

M

Delivery, trash mail, delivery, emergency vehicles um and the patterns, and that's something that you.

M

Know downtown developers have always had to answer to for land use boards and think I I just haven't.

M

Seen it talked about um a lot, you know fedex ups. How do you get an ambulance into market square.

M

um With jersey, barriers on both sides- and I don't have an answer for that other than.

M

It's not being paid attention to, I think, and I think it's real yeah, especially especially.

M

Short and or mid-size and longer truck deliveries are really difficult.

I

Yeah and a little bit to the safety end of it. I know that in past years, when cup of joe has done.

I

Dining in the street, which I don't know if she's doing no she's doing it, she's waiting for market.

E

Square okay: to come and go um she's had to have the plastic, the really attractive plastic, water.

I

Filled barriers- and that was explained to me that if there were a fire in a commercial alley.

I

The firemen would take an ax to those barriers, the water would be gone and those barriers would.

I

Be out so the city tested that and tested the turning radiuses, they weren't they weren't. What.

I

They wanted them to be and that's why cup of joe gets the plastic barriers. So I think they.

I

Do look at that that if they have an access issue, you're going to see the plastic ones.

B

Great, thank you andy good point chairman. The other uh point we made was the purpose for reducing the.

L

Size or the depth of the space to eight feet was to reduce the choke points. Like you see, right.

L

Because when there's delivery, trucks and uh and parking in market square, that space really gets.

L

Yeah it's choked down, so that frees up. I think it's eight feet more, so that we we.

L

Can effectively get fire engines yeah life safety through there great all right thanks, everybody.

B

um So at this point would welcome anyone uh up to speak specific to the outdoor dining, we'll.

B

Have general public comment afterwards? We have just one other item on the agenda, we'll cover so.

B

Thank you for joining us, it's nice to have some guests, mr chairman. We have a hand on zoom, great.

E

Maybe I'll go with that, I think it's eliza. I know it's liza, it might be liza hewitt go ahead. Liza.

O

um Hi good morning my name is eliza hewitt. um I live here in in portsmouth. um My.

O

um Concerns are really focused around safety, um one spot in particular, but another spot as well.

O

um That corner of congress, middle and maplewood is an absolute nightmare.

O

um I drive through there probably five or six times a week.

O

I'm concerned for pedestrian safety. I know there's been cons. There's concerns aside from.

O

Outdoor dining about pedestrian safety in that location, you've now closed down, sidewalks and.

O

Parts of streets for the um for the the store that's being renovated there at the corner.

O

um And then you have on the other side, as you know, that lane is blocked off um and so the the.

O

Jump and jays has put up really. Some of them are going to be trees before long, the site, distance.

O

Is is absolutely totally blocked, as you are coming into that um into that uh intersection.

O

um From congress street, um you cannot see who's stepping out into the street to cross the street.

O

There is so much going on in that intersection that I just I don't even know where to look you've.

O

Got music from the goat you've got trees blocking the site at jumping j's. You have the construction.

O

On the other side of the street, you have people crossing every which way not not looking at walk.

O

Signs or anything else, but even if they did, if they cross out from behind where those trees are.

O

Planted and bushes, you cannot see people coming, um you know it. It's a it's a quite honestly.

O

An absolute disaster- and I I I brought this up at parking traffic and safety two weeks ago at.

O

Their meeting in june uh nothing's been done so obviously my comments were probably disregarded.

O

um But I think you need to look like look at that because uh you know you're saying on the.

O

One hand that safety is your primary concern and I can't imagine anybody would have planned that.

O

Intersection with those trees at jumping jays on purpose, um you know, along with the fact that he.

O

Didn't even open up the area except for planting the trees until recently, so it was sitting there.

O

Blocked for three weeks- and nobody was even eating there is- is a whole nother thing, but I would urge.

O

You to look at you know, I'm hearing that you know you're talking about the height, you know.

O

You're talking about three feet: unless there's you know you can see through it, you can't see.

O

Through trees, you can't see through bushes and by the end of or the middle of the summer, it's going.

O

To be completely filled in, and I can understand why people do not want to order dinner with a side.

O

Of exhaust fumes on congress street, um but you've got to look at the safety in that in that, inter.

O

Section, the the other area that I brought up to pts, which is less of a concern, but still a concern.

O

um Is coming out of penhallow and the way those screens at the press room, and I know.

O

You just all talked about how wonderful it is and it looks beautiful. I will say that.

O

um But you cannot see what is coming down daniel street. um They are off the bridge and.

O

um The site distance is terrible. I've been on my bike there. I have to get it almost out into the.

O

Intersection in order to see whether there's a car coming, there's no stop sign there. So there's.

O

No reason for a car coming down daniel street to stop and they fly down that street. So you.

O

Know you've got to look at what is being used for screens on top of these jersey barriers, because.

O

I've heard all kinds of discussions and those screens are not those screens or screening, are.

O

Not three feet tall they're, just not and they're, not that tall, almost anywhere around the city.

O

They're much higher than that, so I would urge you to put something in there. Please get somebody to.

O

Listen immediately, I'm not talking about next year, I'm talking about like yesterday, especially at.

O

That intersection and that's it for me, thank you very much for listening. Thank you guys. Thank you.

B

Wherever you can, you want to come up here, a spot with a microphone. Thank you.

N

Thank you page trace27, hancock street um you've spoken a lot this morning about uniformity and.

N

Safety and those are very important- you've also spoken about ada, which is also important.

N

But you haven't spoken about equity, you haven't spoken and I look forward to the amount this.

N

Committee spending the same amount of time for the merchants. As you do, the restaurants.

N

You talk about the restaurants being the economic drivers of the city. Now, obviously,.

N

I enjoy the restaurants and no one will refute the fact that we love our city in the restaurants.

N

But the person staying at the sheraton or the hilton garden inn is not coming just to eat.

N

A grilled cheese sandwich with all due respect, they're coming also to spend their hard dollars.

N

To buy a la crescent, a book- god forbid, we should still read: they are spending their.

N

Dollars to try and find a parking space to go see a show at one of several theaters. There is.

N

For the city of multiple things to do- and we spend this committee's time on simply restaurants.

N

You know, covid was an awful experience and I was on council in full disclosure during covid.

N

People like alan gold and karen canard and multiple others. Sarah lachance had the brilliance.

N

To come up with the idea of outdoor dining to help the restaurants, but somewhere along the line, the.

N

Equity got lost the activation of how thrilling it is to be able to go and pull into a parking space.

N

And shop at a bookstore or buy a piece of jewelry or a dress or a pair of pants people come to this.

N

City also to shop, so I would hope at some point. We focus on the equity of both it's not about.

N

Giving up one to make the other better it's it should be. What can we do for the merchants, because.

N

Pretty soon you're all going to be worried about whether there are logos on umbrellas and there's.

N

Going to be a closed storefront in front of that umbrella with a logo. So that's not going to do.

N

Much for the dining appetite to look into a dead empty window, because a poor merchant can't get.

N

Somebody to shop, which brings me also to americans with disabilities act because all of these places.

N

That have jersey barriers. What happened to the handicap parking spaces? Did they get ignored.

N

Because I'm sure there's somebody out there with ada. That would not want to hear that the.

N

Closest handicap spot to park for someone in a wheelchair to go, buy something in a cooking store.

N

Is four blocks away or the attitude is go to foundry garage and you and your.

N

Wheelchair can find a way up the hill down congress street to get to the cooking shop.

N

This is wrong, ladies and gentlemen, we have lost sight of the fact that it takes all.

N

Types of people it takes multiple pieces of a puzzle to make this city healthy, economically.

N

It's not just the person stopping briefly for a hamburger at the goat.

N

And mrs hewitt is correct, with all due respect that that intersection is a nightmare for any of.

N

Us, no matter how careful we might be, particularly in a vehicle fees, fees, the fees that we are.

N

Discussing are not including the cost of the city to move the barriers in they are not, including all.

N

Of you who are on staff the amount of time that you've spent on this committee agonizing over this.

N

So, with all due respect, the fees have to be equitable. That can't just be for that little.

N

Parking space, and that should be another story also because it should be legitimately what.

N

That specific parking space costs, if you're, if your restaurant is in one area of town and your.

N

Parking spaces are more expensive. Well, that's very unfortunate, but that's what you should be.

N

Paying not an average cost at the expense of another restaurant or another merchant.

N

Point of fact, also with the merchants it should be all direct abutters tattoo shop has the goat and.

N

Jumping j's, the fact of the matter is that the goat takes care of anyone seeing the tattoo shop.

N

It's not mcsherry, it's the go, and it's probably the same as far as the htc goes.

N

Hdc and with respect to councilor lombardi, he's probably far more aware of this and and.

N

Up on this than I am, but we do not work on color, that is not the purview of the hdc, so is a logoed.

N

Umbrella, currently under the purview of the hdc, no any more than what color I paint my home in.

N

The historic district, so we have to be aware of also the fact that an umbrella is a temporary.

N

Thing now I happen to agree with the low guard umbrellas um or something that looks like a tiki.

N

Hut in the middle of god knows where it's like: it's not exactly portsmouth historic district, but.

N

The conversation should be a work session with the historic district, and maybe this committee.

N

um As to a more uniform, I understand certain counselors want vibrance.

N

But those counselors also tend to be the newer counselors that are less involved and have been.

N

Less involved with this city- perhaps one of those counselors hasn't lived here more than four years.

N

As opposed to this particular counselor, who was the chair of the hdc.

N

um I think we need to find an equitable sort of middle of the road deal with hdc.

N

um And I think that's that's where I'm going to go right now is that you need to look at the fees.

N

And you need to look at the merchants, because the merchants are suffering.

N

And we spend all this time on the economic drivers of the restaurants.

N

And where are the merchants, you know you close an entire street down for one establishment.

N

So that they can have outdoor dining, but you have merchants here today.

N

Who can't even get their patrons to be able to park to buy something? That's their livelihood.

N

It may not be as pretty as people and vibrant, but they make this city too. So, as I said in the.

N

Beginning, I I'm sorry, I've been so long-winded, but I'm fairly passionate about the fact that it.

N

Takes everyone to make this city work, including city staff, and and a true understanding of what.

N

Those parking spaces are costing us because that's my tax dollars, it's your tax dollars. So let's have.

N

A proper price we are out of covet, we are out of the emergency situation and we now need to.

N

Say with all due respect guys if you're going to inflict and instruct upon the merchants, then there.

N

Needs to be a equal payback. Thank you ever so much for your time. Everyone thank you for joining us.

P

Good morning um resident peter harris, I live at 249 islington street lived in portsmouth for.

P

A little over 30 years, I'd like to uh just go back to what liza hewitt had said about.

P

The intersection of congress street and middle and woodbury.

P

If, if there were parking spaces where those jersey barriers are for the restaurants, they couldn't.

P

Get up that close to the corner because you're not allowed to have parking spaces there. But by having.

P

The jersey barriers there, which are higher than a car parked it is a significant block and the whole.

P

Thing about turning left or going straight, it's it's a lot more restricted. That's really! One of.

P

Two of the busiest intersections in the downtown area coming, that's the one that gets out of.

P

Downtown versus uh state and pleasant street, where you're coming into downtown you can't you can't.

P

Come in at congress street and now you've cut down the lanes to from three to two and uh it's just.

P

Concern, um I understand uh joanna keller, who's on the edc. Isn't here today. I don't know if that's.

P

Because you couldn't make it or um whatnot, but she and has voted on outside dining in the.

P

City council, several times now, when they've had meetings, um I like it noted that she is a direct.

P

um Has a direct financial impact and it doesn't seem right as a resident to see.

P

I mean the vote would have passed regardless, but to have her voting or- and I shouldn't say.

P

Single it out to joanna um to anyone on the city council that owns a restaurant should be involved.

P

In making those decisions or having having that vote, they should recuse. I would expect.

P

And related to costs, I think there's there's more than just the parking space. The dpw costs.

P

There is a lot of impact to that and uh that I've tried to find out what those.

P

Costs are the city is not able to because they don't collect the data in that way where they.

P

Can identify it, but I think, from a transparency perspective, the city should provide to residents.

P

And to the edc, what the actual costs are for, putting out outside dining and taking it down.

P

And that you know should be part of the fees associated in addition to the parking revenue lost.

P

um There's resident impacts, we've talked you've talked about.

P

um The parking and access to parking uh for for restaurants and and how it affects shops, um which.

P

I think is good, I'm glad it's a healthy discussion to hear this happening um as a resident when you.

P

Live, let's say four or five blocks out of town, I'm all about walking into town and getting things but.

P

Sometimes like, for instance, I'm getting, I don't necessarily want to eat out in downtown, because.

P

um It's too busy and as a resident you know I I love going out to the restaurants but having to.

P

um Come in when it's high tourist season and it's just too much I'll, get to go.

P

Well, I need to park quickly and and get something and so to go access. Is I mean.

P

I guess I just need to not get anything from a restaurant in town. It seems, but I'm restricted.

P

um It's this is supporting restaurants in town or in the downtown area, but what about.

P

Restaurants outside the downtown area, and so it's providing some competition uh for.

P

An advantage to the restaurants in the downtown area versus ones outside one just applied for.

P

Outside dining and they're, actually doing all that work themselves, they're outside of town.

P

Anyways I and then lastly, I know on um the jersey or the designs and stuff uh the height.

P

And so on has been discussed, but aren't the low restaurants aren't allowed to have logos so why.

P

Does the goat have the goat logos on their on their screens? That's doesn't make sense to me.

P

um That's all. Thank you. Thank you for commenting. We appreciate it.

Q

Good morning, peter huda, 280 south street.

Q

um The first thing I'd like to address here and um you ask the public to come and comment. I would.

Q

Be interested to have your documents actually placed online that are going to be discussed.

Q

Especially in going over an ordinance and the presentation that um anne had put forward today,.

Q

It's hard to do you, you didn't even have a handout here for the public to to see this is a public.

Q

Committee, this this is paid for by the citizens of portsmouth, and um I would like to see actually.

Q

Something put online, so everybody can review the work, that's being done here as we are residents.

E

Happy to make that happen. Thank you.

Q

um The next thing um since I had worked with anne previously on the code response uh task.

Q

Force, I think her presentation was great. I thought her questions from last week were great and.

Q

I'm glad you acted on this. This is a great first start, the things that I would have uh comments on.

Q

um I think ann had great questions on all of the costs here uh and it was kind of kind of ignored.

Q

um If you need help um describing all the costs that would be incurred here, it is not just the.

Q

Parking revenue: it is a lot of costs that are um taken up by the staff. The other thing I would like.

Q

To follow up on that is on on the enforcement uh ann had mentioned still at the end of.

Q

um Last year or now there were still three uh three of the businesses that had had not.

Q

Meant ada standards. So I would ask our our city staff following up on this and why did that occur?.

Q

This is a matter of safety which should be of the most importance to all staff. um The next thing I.

Q

Thought was a great thing to reduce the sides to eight foot and recommend that to the city council.

Q

um I don't think that um this committee wants to handle the hot potato of fees. I thought it was a.

Q

Great thing to push it back to the feed committee and and deal with this, um the um support that you.

Q

Might want to be able to give them, though, is the the true cost of what outdoor dining costs both.

Q

um To the revenue hit and the city staff, the other thing that was mentioned last week that there is.

Q

Still, even after the city had put a deadline on applying for this, there is still businesses.

Q

Coming forward, that is all well and good, but when the city puts a deadline on on something there is.

Q

A reason and it's the cost of the city and the cost of the residents, so um that I would ask you.

Q

To consider excuse me consider an additional cost, because the cost should be passed on to somebody.

Q

Who did not comply with the deadlines put on by the city? So I think that's something else. You need.

Q

To uh to put to put into uh to force, I agree with um with the discussion on not going into design.

Q

Standards only for safety. As far as this committee goes and the recommendations, I thought that was a.

Q

Very good discussion, the big thing here is having an all-inclusive discussion. I know this this.

Q

Committee basically represents the restaurants, and um I would I go back to the blue ribbon committee.

Q

And we had the same concern and the same concern keeps coming forward that all restaurants, not just.

Q

Restaurants, all retailers, all service industries downtown- should also be represented, whether they.

Q

Belong to the chamber or whether they belong to any other representative group, they need to be.

Q

Represented here they also pay taxes, just like the residents and I'm counting on a committee.

Q

um Like this to actually bring forward and represent everybody, thank you. Thank you very much.

B

Hello, hello, my name is stephanie crawford and I'm the manager of clays I've been the manager.

R

At clay's women's clothing for 13 years, um the outdoor dining, we totally understood in covid.

R

Everyone was trying to survive and we we, you know, supported that effort, but that was you know the.

R

Covet was you know once in a century, and we understand that it brings in money. However,.

R

When you're, giving with one hand, you're taking away with the other and the parking, is such a big.

R

Thing for our customer and we can say, use the garage hanover, we could say use the other, but.

R

It's not usual to get customers if you're telling them what they should be doing.

R

I have had many experiences where our customers long time, customers, because we have a big return.

R

Customer base has said to us has said stephanie I was going to come in, but I circled and I circled.

R

And I couldn't find a thing, so I just left um because we have a coupon that we promote every.

R

Other every other month that brings customers to downtown, but when they come down they can't find a.

R

Parking space, our demographic is the over 40 woman and that can be up to 80.. So you do have women in.

R

Wheelchairs, you have people bringing their mothers in and that greatly impacts our you know our.

R

Existence- and I know that it's a very competitive in the business we're up against amazon.

R

So if you do things to hurt any of the retail people, they'll just go home and order it online.

R

And that means they won't be in using the restaurants either, because there's no reason.

R

For them to come to town, if they can find things that they want it's more of a spur of the moment.

R

Thing this is not something that's planned, they don't plan and say: oh I'm going to go shopping.

R

Today and buy x, even our return customer, they will want to stop in and see what's new and then.

R

They'll buy if they can't stop in if it makes it hard for them to stop in, they won't come.

R

And so we see that if, if we extend this, you know the outdoor dining and I'm sorry. But I don't think.

R

The restaurants were empty before covet in the summer in the summer months. If we extend this.

R

Then, what's going to happen is eventually well. We have to make up the shortfall because we pay.

R

Part of our in part of our rent. We have to pay for taxes too, so you're going to out price any of the.

R

Smaller boutiques that might come in as a startup that make portsmouth a unique you know, go-to place.

R

One of the reasons destination is not only the restaurants, it's because a whole weekend can be.

R

And that's helping the hotels and the hotels help us and the restaurants help us without a doubt.

R

But again we're just looking for an equitable situation that encourages this place to be a.

R

Continued continued destination and I just want to say one other thing, because I don't know if.

R

We're comparing and I'm not sure if the lady who was comparing different cities, have you compared.

R

Salem massachusetts, when I think of parking here, I live in massachusetts. I think of salem.

R

Massachusetts because most people in massachusetts say I'm not going to salem there's no place to.

R

Park and it- ha and I think that that's a city- you should definitely do a comparison to much.

R

Different than boston, much different than you know, the aesthetics of the south or whatever. This is.

R

Something that's new england. They face the winters they have. You know quite a few things going on and.

R

This is a city that we should be comparing to, because that's the direction we're going.

R

So anyway, I mean I'm not trying to be. Oh, I have another question when you say that in a situation.

R

Of in a bottle that it would be up to the person who you know, uh let's say clays if someone was.

R

Abutting on the front of us, if we said no, would there be a conflict and how would that be resolved.

R

If could they sue us or would we automatically get the right to say no to the person who has.

R

The restaurant and I'm not because I don't know what it would be for us, but that has to.

R

Be considered because at some point it will get to be a contentious situation and we don't want.

R

That everyone wants to believe me, this everybody imports with all the people come to visit us say.

R

Portsmouth is so great because everybody gets along. We recommend other people. We people ask.

R

Us for recommendations for restaurants. We go out of our way to help so that they will come back.

R

And see that it's such a great place to come and visit and shop and we have women, you know.

R

Groups of women who come in and shop and then they go to a restaurant. So I totally understand.

R

The importance of the restaurants, no one is ever doubting that, but you have to keep it in balance.

R

It's it's it's a mosaic of things that make portsmouth special. Thank you. Thank you very much.

B

Any others for public comment. Well, we appreciate everyone coming in and recognize it's a very.

B

Complicated issue, uh and just to clarify economic development commission is certainly uh for for all.

B

Business within the city, so we value your input and feedback. Today um we do have one other item.

B

On the agenda before we'll have general public comment and want to confirm our next meeting.

B

Date, and only to briefly comment since we're past time that we did receive uh some commentary from.

B

A resident uh since our past meeting to further explore bringing cruise ships back to the city.

B

So I know, there's been a lot of effort expended on that. Historically certainly continue to have some.

B

Economic vitality in that time frame and some infrastructure improvement in the city. So once.

B

We've finished taking up the the outdoor dining topic. That is something that we'll further discuss.

B

As a commission and connect with those who are stakeholders in that process and before general.

B

Public comment just wanted to ask the commission so we're meeting late in cycle in june. Our next.

B

The first friday of july would be the week of the fourth recognizing that that's a common holiday.

B

Week also not wanting to lose momentum with this discussion, I would put it to the commission.

B

Whether we want to meet that friday or postpone until friday july 14th, my only question is.

H

Councilor lombardi's statement about the july 10th date is there anything that we would need to do.

H

Before then, that would drive when our next meeting should be for for the ordinance. Yes, yes,.

E

The deadline, let me just share with everyone- the deadline to submit materials for the july.

E

10Th meeting would be wednesday july 5th. The next meeting after july 10th for the council.

E

Would be monday august 7th? They only meet once in july, so it sounds like we wouldn't be able.

H

To meet ahead of that submission um deadline anyway, right, if we're going to have commentary.

B

Or review further review of the ordinance, we may need to have a special, separate meeting.

B

um Before the uh likely on june 30th, I think that would be the last friday before.

B

um Either do it virtually or in person uh candidly haven't, had a chance to review the materials that.

B

Came through for the ordinance, um and we would need to distribute that and in advance of that.

B

Meeting so we'll do that today and and advise the group before next week on what next steps.

B

Would be on that ahead of the july meeting for the council and then separately, so our next regularly.

B

Scheduled meeting would either be on the 7th or the 14th of july, outside of the ordinance topic.

H

My recommendation would be if we meet again on the 30th. We should investigate.

H

Whether we need to have a july meeting based upon the business, we have okay.

L

Mr chairman, are we going to? Is the subcommittee then going to meet again prior to this next.

L

Meeting yeah for the outdoor dining topic- yes, yes, yeah. I think that would be important. Yeah.

L

I think we need to take. We need to take up these points that have been brought up this morning. Yeah.

B

Okay, um so I think we'll.

B

Make that final determination on the june 30th meeting in advice on yeah dates next week.

D

Because the next city council meeting after the 10th is in august august sorry yep, okay,.

B

Okay, so more to follow on that and we'll just open it up to general public comment. If, if there's anything further.

B

I'll be quick.

N

um um I talked a lot about equity, page trace, 27 hancock street. I talked a lot about equity earlier.

N

But as a resident, I'm asking for equity here, transparency you're just guessing.

N

um Changes from a governance standpoint, and yet no one here has seen them yet.

N

So it might be nice if the public could see the changes that you're discussing.

N

For the ordinance and for the direction of this committee- and we haven't.

N

So that's all I'm saying is: please, may we have the paperwork? Thank you.

Q

You sound street I'll just add to that. um If you're talking about a meeting of the subcommittee.

Q

um I believe that would be a public meeting also.

Q

That the public should be notified on and the minutes or whatever you're holding would be paid.

Q

Public, so public can participate now in at that and in the future. That would be great. Thank you.

B

Great there's nothing further from the commission would entertain a motion to adjourn so move. Second,.

B

Second, all in favor all right all right can you post! Thank you, everyone for joining us.