City of Portsmouth, New Hampshire Fee Committee, 17 Jan 2023

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1.17.2023 Fee Committee

A

So good afternoon, everybody, uh this is the january 17th 2023 fee committee.

A

Meeting the the feed committee meeting or the feed committee is, is made up of.

A

Four members: four voting members, uh councilor tabor and councilor denton.

A

Two non-voting members myself and the city manager with that we'll get right into the.

A

Agenda, if I could have a motion to accept the minutes from march 7 2022. so moved. Second.

A

All those in favor aye aye all right. The second uh point on the agenda is 2023 outside dining.

A

Season city council, referral from january 9, 2023 and I'll hand it over to the counselors sure I.

B

Will motion that we adopt the recommendations from counselors, bagley and cook if you second.

B

It I'll explain my thoughts on a process forward. uh Second, for discussion purposes, all right so.

B

The best way, I think, for us to approach this is, if we go item by item for let's say: counselor bagley.

B

Reads: item a and maybe counselor cook explains item a. We could ask them questions and then, if.

B

We want to make amendments to item a. We could obviously motion and try to make amendments and.

B

Just if we can't come to an agreement on one of them, we could just move on to the next one and see.

B

If we could come to an agreement and then after we go through all them initially, we can go back.

B

Through to the ones we didn't come to an initial agreement on see if we could hash something out.

B

And uh go from there, okay, and just to clarify our scope, uh we're not going to discuss traffic flow.

C

Or design criteria, unless they're tangential by I unders, as I understand it, our purpose.

C

Is to discuss the permit fee cost uh either for sidewalk encumbrance or parking spaces. I viewed.

B

It as all-encompassing, because we'll be doing fees for whatever parking or traffic areas are.

B

um Decided upon for outdoor dining so be tough to do one and not the other uh okay. Well, let's.

C

Let's roll on and see where it takes us all right so would either you like to read item a.

D

I'll go first, um and then I guess I would also say I think my interpretation from.

D

The last meeting was that the council would like us to have a fairly robust proposal for.

D

Them to then evaluate and make amendments to so I think the more we accomplish here.

D

The more time it's out in the public, so the public can see what we might vote on and then.

D

We can vote on at the council level, so I don't know how you guys want to do it, but I guess that.

D

Would be my interpretation so item a is outdoor dining will commence for parking loading zone.

D

Encumber dining starting on may 1st and ending on into this people's day the city of portsmouth.

D

Will do everything possible to place and remove the barriers within 10 working days following.

D

The beginning and end of the parking loading zone- dining season, sidewalk dining- will be allowed as.

D

The weather permits, but sidewalking conference should be removed so as not to interfere with.

D

Sidewalks, no removal with penalty of fine should not should removal not take place prior to a.

D

Snowstorm yearly permitting for sidewalk dining will take place in march applications for all.

D

Outdoor dining will be accepted, starting february 15th, with a deadline of april 1st.

B

I think that's self-explanatory, but counselor cook, you want to add anything to that or one.

E

Of the things that this does change is this that we would need to set up a fine.

E

um For sidewalk encumbrance in a snowstorm, so that we would we need to know what that fine was.

E

For sidewalking comrades, because, essentially what it does is, it leaves the decision up to.

E

Sidewalk on to restaurants, restaurateurs on sidewalk dining and how long they're willing.

E

To leave their chairs out, but the requirement is that they can't be out and the encumbrance.

E

Cannot be there if there's a snowstorm and we're going to require snow removal on the part of the.

E

City, so therefore they would be subject to a fine if they're, uncovering the sidewalk, when.

E

We need to clear the cycle. If I may, I want to clarify and we have the benefit of parking.

F

Director ben fletcher, on zoom, so between ben and andrew and myself and peter britz. I don't.

F

Believe it's superview of the fee committee to talk about fines. That would be an ordinance.

F

um Item, I think, but I'm not sure so maybe for the purpose of discussion of just what's. We.

F

Can do some homework on the on the fine bit, but I don't believe fines are the purview of this group.

C

um It would seem we have a precedent, you know we have a policy, an ordinance that sets.

C

The cost of a sidewalk encumbrance for construction yep.

C

And I think it's 50 cents a square foot, uh what is charged monthly, that that would seem to be.

C

If you had that as a fine, you could say it's consistent with.

C

Charge, so are you recommending that we do that, but just on a smaller scale, where, if it's out.

B

There, during a snowstorm for the days it's out there during the snowstorm, it's that percentage.

B

Of the monthly fine, it's well, maybe with penalty of fine, as dictated by ordinance. Do we want to.

F

Take it off the plate of this right yeah. I was thinking that we've already got an ordinance.

C

For when you know, somebody puts a crane blocking the street, or somebody puts a.

C

uh Scaffolding on the sidewalk, so why reinvent the wheel and.

B

Just a thought on the process: if there's going to be public comment, I'm fine making adjustments as.

B

We go then letting the public speak and then us voting for the final one to make sure the public.

B

Knows what we're discussing, what we're going to send forward? You hear our rationale. First, behind.

B

Things so does that make sense counselor, if I may, you weren't in the room when we mentioned.

F

That we have to wrap the zoom up by 520. So as long as we have time management on our side.

F

We're good it's okay! You want to take this one. So that's right, and so I'm good with a tentatively.

C

Yes, I don't think I think, there's consensus here and I would even say.

C

At the council level uh about the dates they seem to be positively received on all fronts,.

B

So, okay, b b um outdoor dining, shall not encumber street flow of traffic.

E

In the high traffic zones of the downtown area, exceptions shall only be permitted by.

E

Appeal to the city manager, with evidence of traffic flow below 1 000 cars per day.

D

I guess we don't have to talk about it and um what are me personally as a resident, I.

D

Would like to see all the outdoor dining continue, however, in talks and feedback, the.

D

Places that seem to garner the most people saying that they didn't like it um were the.

D

High traffic lean areas, namely pleasant street fleet street and the end of congress street.

D

um So our thought process is, as those places I think, all had about 2 500 cars per day. If.

D

My calculations or, if my memory serves me right, we basically would not allow outdoor dining for.

D

I believe it's four locations, and that would be due to the city's request and by the city I mean.

D

The the city staff that they feel that that's um there's too much conflict with the vehicle traffic.

C

I'll speak for myself. I agree with this part of the motion. uh If you don't.

C

Have some delimiter based on traffic we get into picking and choosing restaurants, and I don't see.

C

It being a good thing to do to have the council, picking and choosing restaurants.

C

I do sense from the public some consistent pushback about losing some of the traveling lanes.

C

Particularly streets that are made one way only so I'm okay with that and I'm actually not in favor.

B

Of how this is written, my preference would be to allow outdoor dining continue wearing currently.

B

Where it existed this past year, so I don't think we're in agreement on this, so the thought would be.

B

Move on to the next one and come back okay,.

D

Yes, I'll read this one see outdoor dining in parking loading zone shall follow a uniform.

D

Appearance with cityplace concrete barriers and plant box, as described in the december 22 city,.

D

Report and wooden platforms to allow for uniform accessibility, restaurants with existing platforms.

D

And surrounds designed for prior season shall be grandfathered in with position permission.

D

Of the city manager, all outdoor dining places shall have tables and separate chairs to allow.

D

For uniform accessibility when requiring a divider from sidewalk flow, sidewalk, dining.

D

Shall require either a metal or metal looking barrier or a rope-like barrier for separation.

D

For that one, yes, the goal um of this provision was to create more uniformity in uh outdoor dining.

E

There have been several complaints about the looks of various locations, and so the goal.

E

Was not only to improve the aesthetic of the downtown, but also to to create a space where.

E

That is accessible to everyone, where outdoor dining is accessible to anyone in the city. At.

E

Any restaurant location that has outdoor dining currently that accessibility is somewhat limited.

E

In a few locations- and we wanted to make sure that anyone and everyone could sit outside.

E

um It's very difficult for some people to sit in certain types of table settings. It's very.

E

Difficult for them to access outdoor dining that is below the curb if the the ramp is not adequate.

E

To um kind of access that space and it can also be difficult to maneuver so by asking for a platform.

E

Space that accommodates everyone and we wanted to leave. In this permission, this grandfather.

E

Permission on the part of the city manager and the city staff, because there are some sites that.

E

Don't necessarily follow this exact description, but have been identified as very desirable spaces.

E

And we want to make sure that we're not asking too much of our restaurants who've already.

E

Put quite a restaurant tours, we've put quite a bit of money in investment into outdoor dining.

E

So there are spaces that are already platformed, but they not aren't necessarily using.

E

um The the standard, concrete barriers in planter boxes so we're allowing some leeway there, um while.

E

Restaurants, either develop that or we develop new visions around outdoor dining and we're asking.

E

Those who have not invested very much at all in their outdoor dining space besides having the city.

E

Put down concrete barriers to invest a little bit more make sure you have a platform. So your space.

E

Is accessible and some planter boxes to make the space more attractive to everyone downtown.

B

So I guess a thought and then a question for city staff. I wholeheartedly agree when it.

B

Comes to accessibility, I don't necessarily have an opinion on what it looks like personally. I believe.

B

At the last city council meeting, a question may have been asked of city staff guarding.

B

um If we're allowed to grandfather some in and not others, if it's ringing a bell with anyone.

B

Or my misremembering, I think that might have been a public comment. There's a public comment.

D

um I guess I'll speak if you want to our thought process.

D

So so um the platforms in most cases make sense for accessibility. However,.

D

If it was a very low curb- or there was no curb at all, putting a platform in would.

D

Be counterproductive, so that's why we want to make sure the city manager has that ability to say you.

D

Don't need a platform here because it doesn't make sense, but in most places it makes sense because.

D

Then you can be flush with the curb the picnic date, and it also, we think, makes it look better.

D

The picnic table versus separate chairs is kind of the same thing. We think that a patio type setup.

D

Looks better, however, for people that, let's say, are a bit in firm or elderly getting in and out of a.

D

Picnic table can be a challenge, whereas a separate chair, especially if that separate chair, has arms.

D

Is much easier to to sit in and get in and out of so we thought these two components do two.

D

Things one they make it more accessible and two they generally should improve the look and feel.

D

However, I think the grandfather discussion came up and I'll name a place in particular. Is the press.

D

Room, they have some built-in bench seating which I think is desirable, because you have the separate.

D

Chair and you have the built-in bench- seating and the general feedback we've got from the public is.

D

That one looks particularly nice but maybe doesn't quite meet the spirit of what we're saying here.

D

So we want want to make sure the city manager has the discretion to say this is this is good.

D

Does that make sense that that was jiminy? Yes, I I'm with you on accessibility. I also think the.

C

Restaurant owners themselves prefer tables, it's gives them more flexibility and there's actually.

C

Industry-Based practice around that a question for oh peter britz's planning director. How would we.

C

How would staff interpret uh follow a uniform appearance.

G

I would think we'd have to have some kind of guidelines on that, just to say uniform appearance.

G

That there was a style that was used that we could follow as the guideline that would work.

G

But a lot of interpretation just to say uniform appearance. I think it's hard to regulate that.

G

Yeah I mean I guess I don't know what that could mean yeah. I.

C

I don't, I think, we've been successful with the the hybrid of.

C

First year, outdoor dining concrete barriers, topped with wooden planters, but you know, is that.

C

The standard we want from everybody- I'm not sure I think, there's all kinds of good parklet designs.

C

You go into the world of parklets, um yeah and so I'm concerned about.

C

How we, if we as policy makers, say this, should follow a uniform appearance.

C

You know the devil's in the implementation of that I have a quick thought and maybe we could.

D

Call it a minimum uniform standard and then, if somebody wanted to do something that was.

D

Above and beyond the standard, they could go to the city and say we want to use this partlet design.

D

That cost twenty thousand dollars instead of ten would this qualify? Is that something the city.

D

Could handle, or is that just as first difficult there's a uniform design would be easy enough.

G

The second part, I guess, is it's going to leave it up the discretion of staff and that's going to be.

G

We're the devil's in the details again, you know how do we we want to be fair to everybody that.

G

They follow the policy, so if we can come up with a uniform standard, then that to me.

G

And it should be something to fly with. If I may, weigh in um beverly was careful to point out in.

F

Collaboration with our traffic engineers that the height of the barriers and any obstruction.

F

Beyond that were were primarily so as not to impede the view shed of a driver or a.

F

Pedestrian or things like that, so that so in case people are wondering where the genesis.

F

Of of height of a barrier or things related to folks barriers, um that's where that came from.

E

um I should note um also that we define what the uniform appearance is clearly here in section c,.

E

Where we say with city, placed concrete barriers and planter boxes, as described in the december.

E

22Nd city report so we're clear as to what we're talking about when we talk about a uniform.

E

Appearance and then what we do is we grandfather in those that have already invested money in.

E

Something that looks different by allowing them to appeal to have that ran forth fathered. In so.

E

The goal is not to have restaurants, designing new platforms or changing. Look. It's it's. You should.

E

Follow this uniform appearance? If, if you haven't done this already, this is what we're expecting of.

E

You, if you didn't apply last year, but if you've already invested a lot of money, we don't want to.

E

Say I'm sorry that you invested all this money last year. You can't use that this.

E

Year, we're going to ask you to do something entirely different. We want those restaurants.

E

To have the opportunity to appeal, so I think that's really. The goal here is to create.

E

A fairly uniform standard appearance plus it makes it easier when it comes.

E

To traffic and traffic monitoring, if we know everyone's at a certain sideline for the city.

B

Planning director fritz that's the first time. I've said that.

B

um Would that be enough of a guideline to work of work from yeah? What it says here, so they.

G

Follow a uniform appearance here it says, with cityplace concrete barriers and plantar pockets.

G

As described in the 22 report, summertime second report and her recommendation beverly said that.

G

um They'd be limited to three feet in height, which I think would be a good addition to that. Probably.

G

um That include jersey, barriers and those that might be constructed on sidewalks.

G

So I think this recommendation has a little bit more to it, but yeah. I think again as long as this.

G

There's a structure there that we can follow: okay and it doesn't take a lot of interpretation and.

G

The grandfathering, I don't know, I guess the grandfather might have to still meet the height.

G

Requirement, I would think at least that's where the that's, where it gets a little sticky, but I.

C

Think the height is is sensible for safety. That's why it's yeah! That's the best practice yeah.

C

um By the way, I think it was a december 14 city council meeting.

C

December 22, so we may want to oh 2022. I think that was at least oh 2020 yeah.

B

I guess we have two options here with this. One is to come back to it, either later today or as.

B

A council or if we wanted to parse it down to just be on the wooden platforms, to allow uniform.

B

Accessibility and then essentially not have a standard when it comes to which of the three.

B

uh The former playing director recommended what are your thoughts on that? I see you're smiling.

E

um When, when I receive complaints around outdoor dining, it was usually about the appearance of.

E

Outdoor dining, this a space would look junky um that that looked very different than others.

E

That you couldn't see in from the street that it blocked sight lines in downtown. I think that we we.

E

Have to be careful about just allowing anything and everything downtown. um I think we need to.

E

Kind of continue to create that atmosphere where everyone feels welcome where people feel like they.

E

Have good sight lines um not just um driving sight lines, but when you're walking down the sidewalk.

E

You want to be able to see across the sidewalk. You want people to see all the businesses around.

E

Them when they're walking down the sidewalk, you don't want that encumbered by a built-in.

E

Environment from outdoor dining, so I think that's what I would be really cautious in just allowing.

E

um Anything um because there there is a concern about maintaining um the the look of downtown.

E

And making sure that people feel welcome and comfortable anywhere well, I'm hearing from the.

C

Planning director that there's a certain level of comfort that we can refer to standards that.

C

Were written by the previous planning director, and I also think that the platforms are a big.

C

I was going to say big step up, but that's a bad pun. I think they improve the club.

C

um Appearance and they do make it accessible so.

C

You know having asked these questions, I'm more comfortable with the language that we've got.

C

um As is, um I think we would want to say described in the december city report, uh minimum three feet.

C

A maximum five feet in height.

C

Wooden platforms.

B

And I would be more than comfortable with that as long as it's understood that those.

B

Who already did something higher past years per person? Whoever else could keep theirs.

B

That's, and I think we've got that. Okay, I'm just gonna, make sure we're all yeah in agreement on.

B

That so, if I may, even there would be the addition of a mention of a height limitation of three feet.

F

Three to five um plus the additional one foot for planters, I think five would be above what.

F

Eric eby would be comfortable recommending. Okay, just want to put that out. There.

F

D

D now this is the meat and potatoes uh parking loading zone. Outdoor dining shall have a permit.

D

Fee of 1500 space or five dollars a square foot, whichever is a lesser expense. Any restaurant.

D

Taking up a parking space, miss pay for the full square footage of the parking space or.

D

The standard space fee, sidewalking conferences shall have a flat fee of 500 a season with.

D

Sidewalk encumbrance base limitations determined by the city manager uh counselor. I would propose.

C

We amend this to two thousand dollars per space and the appropriate square footage equivalent.

B

I'm actually in agreement with the proposal, but there's one amendment which I would like.

B

To make which is more housekeeping versus costs, and that would be adding a sentence.

B

Which would read outdoor dining that is not in a parking, slash loading zone or on a sidewalk.

B

Will have a permit fee of five dollars, a square foot and the rationale for that is.

B

We're just covering, with the current language most of the outdoor dining.

B

From last year, but it's not covering it's an outdoor dining on hill street. If we were to.

B

Allow that to happen, and by adding that language it would allow outdoor dining.

B

At the hill street establishment and the five dollars, I just kept five dollars, because the.

B

Fees which you had listed were the fees from last year. So not that you necessarily be agreeing with.

B

The five dollars a square foot would you agree with that amendment, so this would allow hill.

B

Street or any other establishment in a similar position to be able to continue outdoor dining.

C

um I think that's right isn't that.

C

Counselor bagley amended to save five dollars per square foot.

C

Or 1500 space, whichever is lesser, um but that's for parking loading, got it parking and.

B

Loading zones, but the hill street assessment doesn't fall in a parking or loading zone.

D

Perhaps the amendment could be in any space. That is not a sidewalk. That would include right because.

C

It's important to remember here that uh we do have a sidewalk cafe, policy which was passed in 2012.

C

And is ten dollars a square foot and we have six restaurants that are actively using it.

C

So I think we ought to let's not create a whole new fees where we've already got fees.

F

Staff could remind everyone here that the um the the price per square foot on sidewalks.

F

This year was ten dollars, a square foot that you are correct, counselor, that is the sidewalk.

F

Policy as well sidewalk cafe encumbrance, which is before covet a different permit altogether and the.

F

Recommendation of staff was that, if to to phase in the um the the amount of charge per parking.

F

Space, it was fifteen hundred dollars this current year. The recommendation of staff was to bring it.

F

To the three thousand dollars per parking space at the appropriate time, if you think there is one.

F

Ben can speak to the rationale for that, but I just want to put out there that staff would. I advocate.

F

For that three thousand, but the staff have any thoughts on outdoor dining, which is neither in a.

B

Parking slash loading zone or sidewalk because that's currently not covered anywhere in the.

F

Right in front of us, given that we would not support dining in a travel lane, we wouldn't have.

F

Language for that, but, um however, that's a lot of applied to hill street yeah. That would be the ten.

F

Dollars per square foot using the sidewalk number uh believe they paid five dollars a square footage.

C

Right, they're they're, paying five historically in line with the 1500.. I think we need to check.

F

That, because yeah this is those report says it was ten dollars yeah. That was an oversight by director.

D

um Visa sent, it was only five dollars yeah. It was originally set at 10., okay,.

D

um And then, when it came through in the december packet, that was just an oversight, because I remember we asked about that right and hill street didn't we find out that.

C

That's less than a thousand cars correct right. I think it was about 40.. It was.

F

It was 50 on the weekday we did not have a saturday account for hill at tanner. Let's look up.

E

um I wanted just to highlight uh that the reason we included a fee here for sidewalk encumbrance is.

E

um For this year to start shifting away from a policy of ten dollars per square foot, necessarily.

E

For sidewalk encumbrance, um because the main cost to the city from what I've gleaned from sidewalk.

E

Encumbrance is a health inspection of the space making sure the setup is appropriate and then.

E

um Just monitoring and making sure that no one goes beyond the space that was originally.

E

Agreed to at the city level, the city 40 could have already has the ability to say you can't encumber.

E

More sidewalk than a certain space, a certain amount just because it impedes sidewalk pedestrian.

E

Traffic flow, so since it's really kind of a standard kind of monitoring, no matter what the.

E

Size of the outdoor dining space is for sidewalks. The goal was to move to just a flat fee for every.

E

um Every location, essentially, what we're trying to do is we're trying to encourage.

E

Outdoor dining sidewalk dining because we believe it creates vibrancy downtown and so by giving.

E

Restaurants, a flat fee and allowing the city to determine the limitations on how far their outdoor.

E

Dining can encumber the sidewalk because you don't want to reduce pedestrian flow too much, then we're.

E

Encouraging restaurants to continue their outdoor dining on sidewalk spaces, which we believe builds.

E

That vibrancy in the downtown area, right as it is, you may have a restaurant with a significant.

E

Amount of sidewalk space in front of the restaurant that could be used for outdoor dining.

E

Yet they don't want to pay the fees the per table per chair fees for that type of outdoor dining.

E

Because it can be very expensive if you have a larger space, so I think we want to be careful too.

E

That we're not discriminating against restaurant tours, who don't have as much money as others.

C

uh Could we hear from staff on you know we, I think, that ten dollars a square foot.

C

Was passed in 2012 by an eight to one vote and has been in practice for going on 11 years, so.

C

um I understand you would like to essentially lower that and make it more flexible, but I'd.

C

Like to hear from staff well I'll start off with peter, please weigh-in, um I hear beverly's voice.

F

In my head saying that, if that, if businesses rely on real estate, that's not theirs as part of their.

F

Business plan that's not appropriate and that the city's um right away, if you will should not always.

F

Be assumed to be something that could be factored into the business plan, so the this game that this.

F

Game this conversation inherently creates winners and losers. There are folks that have.

F

um Real estate that is conducive to outdoor dining, more so than others, and I think beverly's point.

F

And when we were talking about the staff level was, if you're really that reliant on space. That.

F

Isn't yours, maybe you need to think about a a location that makes more sense that that helps.

F

You achieve the maximum number of seats and or out what have you and um to have the inequity.

F

um Be apparent, you know some folks have more real estate, have more sidewalk have more.

F

um By virtue of where they're located it does.

F

It does remind us that I don't think we can achieve equity, but at a financial cost.

C

Right to which I would add, we have an ordinance in place that has been successful for a decade.

C

We haven't raised the fence, it doesn't seem to be causing any hardship that I'm hearing about and so.

B

Just to go back to my initial statement since I'm, I still support the fees as written down and since.

B

You want don't support the fees that's written down. I don't think we're gonna.

B

Come to an agreement on those fees here, but I would still like to add that sentence.

B

Regardless, if you agree with it being the five dollars from last year, increasing it so that way.

B

um Outdoor dining can continue on hill street per the recommendation.

F

That for areas not in in the parking space or a loading zone or a sidewalk correct that are.

F

Deemed permeable for outdoor dining would also be charged the five dollars a square foot correct.

C

I'm okay with it; okay, as long as there's no unintended consequences and counselor bagley.

D

I just want to make a comment, because I I think that um you know we had a policy in place for a.

D

Number of years- and I believe it was capped at 10 establishments, which we never came close to and.

D

The feedback I have received from citizens is they like the vibrancy of outdoor dining. So the reason.

D

We created outdoor dining was to try and save the restaurants during covid. Speaking personally,.

D

The reason I think we should continue it has nothing to do with the the p l statements of.

D

Restaurants, I think we should continue it, because the overwhelming response we've had from citizens.

D

Is they'd like to see more of it? So to that end, I think we should maybe not look back at a policy.

D

That seemed to discourage outdoor dining, because there wasn't very much of it and to say that that.

D

Was achieving what residents wanted? However, I do understand the argument that if you have a bigger.

D

Space, you should probably pay more than if you have a smaller space, so I would just leave that.

D

On the table, it sounds like we're going to have to discuss, discuss this at the council level anyway,.

D

But I did want to make that distinction, because I think it's very important we're doing this because.

D

People seem to want the vitality of outdoor dining. It has nothing to do with whether or.

D

Not it makes a restaurant more or less profitable from my perspective, and I could speak to the pro.

B

Outdoor dining prior to covid, I was on the council during that time period and I'd ask the same.

B

Manager, why is there a cap at 10, restaurants or 12, whatever it may have been, and his response was.

B

And the reason why I was asking is, I want to eliminate the cap and he said well, we haven't.

B

Met the cap, yet we haven't even come close to it because there weren't enough restaurants applying.

B

For outdoor dining at the time to come close to the cap, that's why we never touched it.

B

So well with that said, it's for not in agreement should we move on to e or counselor.

E

um Can I just share one more thing about the reason why we chose the 1500 rate.

E

um For several restaurants, downtown the cost of building a platform is going to be significant.

E

um We received feedback from one restaurateur.

E

um Via email that the cost for building a platform was close to six thousand dollars.

E

So when we're talking about the fee, it's the fee plus improvements, and so it's already going.

E

To be significantly more for several of them than it was last year, so I was, I would propose.

C

You know we hold it 1500 this year and move to 2000 next year and put language in for that.

C

um I did I counselor cook makes a point. uh This is an interesting study from national association of.

C

City traffic officers nacto about parklets um and it's old now, but even then.

C

A full-blown designed parklet with plantings was on the order of fifteen thousand for one parking.

C

Space so two parking spaces. Thirty thousand! So I you know, I've gone back and forth on this in.

C

My own mind and I do think, as the mayor said, you know, restaurants should have skin in the game to.

C

You know if they're going to use the public domain for their business. The fee needs to be set so that.

C

um They don't gobble up space that they don't need.

C

But, on the other hand, if we're designed, if we're implementing design criteria as we are.

C

I think it's going to take a year for restaurants to invest to make the investment.

C

The six thousand ten thousand fifteen thousand investment to get up to what we all want.

C

Which is outdoor dining that looks really good, as well as it's fun to fun, to enjoy.

C

Council bagley, um I do. I appreciate counselor tabor's thought process.

D

There- and I do have some data that we didn't discuss that may help.

D

um Councilor cook and I uh greatly shortened the season, so I believe director fletcher can confirm.

D

But we estimated the revenue per space during the outdoor season last year would be fifty seven.

D

Hundred dollars using some complicated formula and this year, we estimate the revenue per space.

D

Would be 3 517 so that there there's a significant drop on the amount of revenue the city might lose.

D

um It brings the on-street parking back in the cooler months, which kind of counter-intuitively.

D

It's more important to have on street parking in the cold months, because people are less likely to.

D

Walk than it is in the summer months, when there are more people, because people are more willing.

D

To walk and to that point, um and perhaps director fletcher could say this, you know as a city, I think.

D

What we're concerned is bottom line number, how much revenue does parking generate and I think.

D

Last year, even with outdoor dining, we generated more parking meter revenue in the city, so.

D

It's hard to parse down to the single parking space. It may be better to look at the whole.

D

Economy of the parking environment. And if you have a desirable economy where.

D

People are parking in the garage. We've got fantastic utilization of the foundry now.

D

um We're not necessarily losing that 3517 dollars, because we may be recouping it when.

D

People choose to park in other locations yeah. I think we're all aligned that we're not trying to.

C

Replace the parking revenue of the 67 spaces there's a higher purpose here, there's a greater.

C

Public benefit and I think, we're taking a step as a number, as both of you have said, towards.

C

uh A downtown that's more pedestrian or in the end than car oriented, and I think that's the long-term.

C

Direction we want to go so this is a fine point, you know, is it 1500? Is it two thousand we're not.

C

Trying to uh bring all the nickels of the parking meters out of these 67 spaces. um I would also.

C

Well, we can ask ben, but you know if, if the foundry is now up past, 70 percent occupancy.

C

I have to think that outdoor dining was part of that. If I can jump in and ask ben to jump in.

F

Ben is sharing some information with me that the 3 500 calculation would be if you head.

F

Outdoor dining in operation may 15th to columbus their indigenous people's day. If you switched it.

F

Back to may 1st, it would be almost 3 900 per parking space and ben would also tell you. We.

F

Do recoup much of the revenue, but there are no price escalators uh in after the third hour in.

F

Either garage and hanover is closing at least a third of the spaces very regularly, so we're.

F

Primarily recouping at the one dollar per hour rate and at hanover it's two but ben did I do.

F

That any justice do you want to add anything in. That's that's exactly what uh looking across yes.

F

Thank you and I think, we're all in agreement with the uh end goal, having a more walkable portsmouth.

B

We're not agreed on the specific numbers and given we only have about 30 minutes left and.

B

There's members of the public here I think we should move on to the next item. Well, I just.

C

I just wanted to say that I would be okay with the current language 1500. If we said we escalated to.

C

2000 next year after everybody invested in their platforms, if that's agreeable to you.

B

Do you have any additional thoughts on that counselors cooker bagley.

D

uh I would say, perhaps we could float for the council meeting and option a and option b.

D

Okay, I think that's and if I may, in terms of process this is this would be. This would live as.

F

A policy versus an ordinance policies are easier to change, so, if that plays into anyone's thinking.

F

About what we're thinking this year for 24 verses next year for 24., it would be a it would be a.

F

Possible to amend the policy in one vote versus three readings and all that right thanks. Thank you.

B

Item e: either you want to take a restaurant's requesting a parking loading zone, encumbrance.

E

Or street encumbrance can receive up to a 500 reduction in fees if they compost food waste.

E

For sidewalk spaces, restaurants may receive up to 200 reduction up to a 200 reduction in fees. If.

E

They compost food waste and I guess I'll speak to that briefly. um Councilor done and congratulated.

D

uh Planning director and sustainability director peter fritz, but he left off the sustainable deep.

D

Part, which I thought was a bit humorous because he's obviously a big champion of sustainability.

D

As I think most of us on the council are, but I think counselor cook and counselor dennen.

D

Are always looking to make portsmouth a leader in sustainability? And because we are a dylan's.

D

Rule state, not a home rule state it's difficult to find avenues to encourage people to choose.

D

A sustainability option: personally, I don't have strong opinions either way on this particular item.

D

And I'll leave it at that. No, I support this and I'm actually gonna.

B

Recommend an amendment to this, which would be a 500 reduction in fees per parking space.

B

And up to two dollars reduction in fees per square foot.

B

That math should align, and the reason for that is by ordinance. Portsmouth requires all restaurants.

B

With outdoor dining on city property, whether it be in the street on the sidewalk to compost,.

B

Those that do not compost are in violation of an ordinance which was passed back in 2000 and.

B

19.- and I think this would help encourage more restaurants to compost.

B

um By giving the reduction in fees to anyone who actually asks it's an incredibly expensive.

B

Endeavor, I I'd support the idea of it, obviously, but um I'm a little worried about the enforcement.

G

Like what is the, what is so? What are we going to use as an enforcement mechanism? The we did.

B

This this past year it was 200 and um I believe the way it was done is the um health officer.

B

Checked with them, and it was twice to see if they were successfully composting with any of.

B

The compost providers, so that's how it was done lesson this past year was 200 dollars. I believe.

B

In the beginning of the season and 200 halfway through, and I think the same thing could be done.

B

Okay, couch cook, I should note that there's also nothing that's prohibiting the city. If the city.

E

Finds that a restaurant wasn't composting and the way that they said to to charge a retroactive fee.

E

For our increased fee for the part of the summer, yeah exactly and- and I also would say I don't have.

E

A problem with that change as well, um I think the goal here was was simply to say those who.

E

Are encumbering the street floating zones they're paying more money automatically by just the way.

E

That um the fees are set up was to give them an equivalent break, so I think it's reasonable.

B

Answer any thoughts on my proposed amendment to it.

C

um It's consistent if we move the parking space fee up next year, uh we'd want to continue.

C

To be a 20 discount, which so, if I just want us to be able to.

C

You know right now: it's a 33 discount, sorry, correct, liberal arts, major um and.

C

So if we move to 2000 next year, we'd want to stay consistent at 33 percent. I agree on that.

D

If I might make a suggestion, uh perhaps we just call it a 33 discount.

D

That's and then, whenever the fees are moving, the discount automatically aligns.

B

That makes sense, and that is why you're an engineer and I'm not.

B

33 yeah and would that work for staff.

B

It's clear and then how about f, the city manager has the authority to act with notification of.

D

The council, if any unforeseen circumstances occur or unexpected adjustments, are needed.

E

um Our concern was say, we have a hurricane warning and we need to be really careful.

E

About that, with down to our outdoor dining and tables sitting outside in downtown.

E

um We want the city manager to be able to make adjustments as needed and to to warn everyone.

E

That they are required to get their tables off the sidewalk. If there's, if we anticipate, say rough.

E

Weather or some other unforeseen circumstance, so I think that's that's really what the the goal is.

E

Here, it's it's not to make wholesale changes. It's to anticipate any unforeseen circumstances with.

E

Outdoor dining have we had an illegal review of this language we have not, but if I can chime in.

F

When we first had outdoor dining, it was, the 2020 was an awkward year, but in 2021 there was there.

F

Was a specific mention by the prior council to grant the city manager a certain authority to act.

F

Administratively, when it made sense, so I think it would. This merely codifies that thought obviously.

F

um Whether it's me or some city manager in the future, um the act, the the idea wouldn't be to act.

F

In a way that is um counter to what the council approved for policy and we'd notify the council.

B

Thank you, yeah.

B

Give any additional thoughts before we open up to public comment, uh so we can comment after the.

B

Public as well, yes, well, let's just clarify so at this point. We are not in agreement on.

C

We're in agreement on fifteen hundred dollars a space for this year, um my proposal to raise it to.

C

2000 next year does not have a second joshua, not this time, okay, but I would still to the council.

B

With that, how many people on zoom are there wanting to speak? If any, we don't have any.

F

Folks, on zoom, who wish to speak like it's like to open it up to the public, looks like we have about.

B

20 minutes so any member of the public like to come up and take a seat. Please state your name.

B

If you remember the portion of the community I.e a resident and um I'm gonna ask you to.

B

If you could try to keep it around three minutes, I will thank you short and sweet.

H

um Page trace27 hancock street councilor denton, um it's lovely to give restaurants the benefit of.

H

uh Break and fees if they compost, but could you not consider in the future or the near future,.

H

Also, adding other restaurants in the city somehow giving consider giving them a break in their.

H

Sewage bill or their waste belt, because if they are composting, then there's less sewage.

H

To my mind, you have less fats, oil and grease euphemism fog.

H

And the sewer system that we currently have on pierce island is exceedingly susceptible.

H

Sensitive would be a good word to fat, soil and grease. So I applaud what you're doing with.

H

um Restaurants having outside dining, but there are plenty of restaurants throughout the entire city.

H

So that gives them an ability to participate, so I might think of sending out something with a sewer.

H

Bill or something water bill, saying hey: if you compost, let us know or if you change to composting.

H

There's there might be a reduction or there might be something, and my next question is all of this:.

H

Is great, um I remember when the city manager was thinking that an average parking space might be.

H

Fifty eight hundred dollars in revenue- and that was a number one- we were considering 210 days, yeah.

H

um I still I applaud everyone for all the work on the outside dining, but I have to.

H

Ask if there isn't something that can be done if you are providing outside dining for restaurants,.

H

Then is there something that can be done at the same time for merchants to give them.

H

Benefit that they don't currently have, that's only I mean we as taxpayers are paying for it.

H

um But it seems a little lopsided and we have more than just restaurants in this town. So if.

H

You could consider that that would be great as the fees committee. There must be something that you.

H

Can do to help these poor merchants because they deserve the same consideration as a restaurant.

H

And other than that, um I really wish, with all due respect to every restaurant out there, that.

H

Has outside dining um I'm mindful of the bottom line and councilor tabor was right.

H

There's a greater good here, but I wish I'll get criticized for this and I know it but.

H

I wish the fees were higher so that there was not totally higher. I mean council, tabor, you're.

H

Correct two thousand dollars next year: three thousand dollars, there's got to be something.

H

We're we're not in the same emergency that the governor called two years ago and that I thank you.

H

Thank you and thank you josh, for what you're doing. Thank you.

I

Hi eliza hewitt portsmouth resident. um I have a question for you city councilors. Will there.

I

Be a public hearing on this, because it seems to me that what I'm hearing is that it's all going to be.

I

Decided through the council, the public can speak up during public comment, but is there going to be.

I

A public hearing because I'm hearing um you know mr bagley saying that everybody he's talked to is.

I

In favor of this and it's kind of funny, I guess it depends upon who you talk to, because I've heard of.

I

A lot of people that aren't too thrilled with it for various reasons, both people in the city that.

I

Live in the city and people that used to come in from outside of the city that no longer do.

G

um And so I I feel like this is, you know you kind of have talked to the restaurant people and you've.

I

Apparently talked to or heard from, the businesses downtown, and I heard at the last council that you.

I

Would talk to the people living downtown, but but there are about 20 000 other people in this city.

I

That I'm not sure anybody's heard from so. I really think there needs to be a public hearing on this.

I

A big deal- and we were told that this you know we were kind of told two years ago. This was a coveted.

I

Thing and now we're being told this is a permanent forever thing and it does change whether it's.

I

Whether your opinion is that it's more vibrant or whatever it does change the character of downtown.

I

And I think that 20 000 people, whether they show up or not, um should have the opportunity to speak.

I

At a public hearing versus you know, you know taking it piecemeal and and not you know the.

I

Only option is public comment. That was that's one thing: um fifteen hundred dollars for five months.

I

To me equates to about ten dollars a day for a 162 square foot of rented space from the city.

I

I may have my numbers wrong, but I try to look at it. I'm not a mathematician, um so you kind of need.

I

To sell one meal to to recoup your money um and then the rest is is, is gravy to the restaurants.

I

Which is fine but we're not giving that gravy to downtown businesses and- and I have a problem.

I

With that, I think you know we're not giving them the opportunity for significantly reduced rental.

I

Space on the city, and so we're really targeting one population and I'm not sure that that's fair.

I

um You know I find it fascinating um and karen you'll be thrilled to hear I.

I

Agree with you on this that you know if we've got restaurants that have set up their business model.

I

With outdoor dining, I think there's a problem with that, um and um you know the city staff.

I

Has recommended three thousand dollars, and you know some council members you, mr bagley.

I

Very quick to point out previous council members who did not listen to city staff recommendations.

I

um And how wrong that is, and then here you are not listening to city staff, recommendations.

I

So I just wanted to throw that out. You told the residents last year that these fees were only for.

I

Last summer, to recoup from covid and now you're suggesting that they stay the same, so you know the.

I

I'm just throwing this out there the composting. um I just wonder how many of these restaurants.

I

That are composting for a fee reduction are already composting, and I I don't know how.

I

Much mr fox charges, so I don't know whether they're recouping all their money or making.

I

Money or whatever it is because you haven't really discussed that um and you know finally.

I

I think you are picking and choosing restaurants. What I'm hearing is that there's going to be no.

I

Dining in the street per se- and I don't disagree with that- I think that the situation up there at.

I

The corner of congress and um and it'll was extremely dangerous, and I can't tell you the.

I

Number of times that I approached that that street and had people jumping out behind the trees that.

I

Jumping jays had planted in their barricades. You couldn't see people, you couldn't see them at night.

I

They couldn't see that I was sitting there in my car waiting to drive, so I don't disagree with that.

I

But now what you've done is you've spot zoned for some people to have street dining and not.

I

Others and- and I wonder whether that's going to come back to haunt you, um because I I don't know.

I

How you can do that? I don't know how you can say: some people can have it and some people.

I

Can't because we've arbitrarily decided that if you have less than a thousand cars, you can.

I

Use the street, especially when I think I mean you, know you've named one restaurant- that this.

I

Is that this is going to affect, has two parking spots out in front of the restaurant? So why are.

I

They not using those and not closing a street just a question just just asking that question.

I

um You know, and and when you are closing a street, how is that being.

I

Calculated, like you, said, five dollars. Well, you know you could say that that that space on hill.

I

Street is probably about eight parking spots, and so, if you look at that eight parking spots times.

I

Fifteen hundred dollars is twelve thousand dollars. Is that person paying twelve thousand dollars like.

I

What are they paying to save five dollars on a street doesn't really tell me a whole lot.

I

um So I just be curious to know about that, um and I guess I'll leave it at that, but I I do hope that.

I

There's a, uh I do hope, there's some kind of public hearing. Maybe nobody will come out. Maybe they will.

I

um But I I think that, in fairness to the taxpayers, that really are taking the burden of this.

I

um There should be, there should be some type of public forum um to to talk about how this.

I

Is going to go forth? Thank you. Thank you, eliza any other speakers. Yes, sir.

J

Good evening peter huda, 280 south street.

J

um I think I'm going to go down the line here, as you discussed your um your non-fee discussion.

J

um I would ask you to think about um the first thing about the barrier, designs and uniformity.

J

And basically dictating that and listening to the discussion, you're you're saying the new ones have.

J

To have the same kind of barriers but you're going to grandfather in the old sites. I guess I would.

J

Remind you- and maybe the city manager remembers this- that at the time when we started this all.

J

Of the barriers that were consistently painted and all of the um uh flower boxes and everything we're.

J

All we're gone so I I guess I would ask you to think about how um you would get uniformity again.

J

Without um whoever is would be new to the project uh paying for all this and where they would get.

J

It because I don't know where what the status is of the barriers that were used if they're coming.

J

Back or going out, but um that would uh would probably be a consideration for you to think about.

J

um Again, um I would ask you to think about um more than just the restaurants downtown when.

J

We talk about vibrancy. um This is not just for the restaurants. Only we are an all-inclusive community.

J

Councilor bagley, that would mean retail attorneys lawyers. I mean everybody downtown. Everybody needs.

J

That parking- and this is going to affect everybody again. So that's the other thing.

J

The big thing here is, I totally agree with city manager canard on the price.

J

You, the council, previously asked the city manager to do research and go back and look at the data.

J

She came back with 5700, you took it down to 1500 again she did the same research and came.

J

Back with three thousand, and now you still want to cut it in half, so I would really ask you to.

J

Take the city manager's advice on this and keep it higher. The next thing that was brought to all of.

J

Our attentions is that the some some restaurants downtown can't afford this. It's not in their plan.

J

So I guess I also agree with the city manager on this um when you brought your.

J

People bought their property downtown based on its location and all the amenities that it had.

J

And what we're actually doing here is giving other restaurants an advantage to the people who had.

J

Paid already for this by giving outdoor dining and this this came up last time we discussed this and.

J

um I it's unfair for everybody else who had had to pay for all these amenities. There's.

J

Different locations in town that are definitely have an advantage just based on their location.

J

um The other thing that I would ask, and I would ask you to look at because it really.

J

Looks like that you're going towards a single establishment subsidy here and it is spot.

J

Zoning uh there's only one establishment that has been constantly talked about here, because.

J

Of the because of where they are and you've made all kind of traffic adjustments for them.

J

You've you you're still talking about how to have them inclusive and there's only one.

J

So I would ask you to think about the rest of them and how you're, looking at other.

J

Establishments of that kind, the last thing I guess I would like to bring to your attention.

J

Is the restrictions that you're putting on for um mr fox? um They could the restaurant this and this.

J

I would like to you to think about this as discriminatory towards the restaurants who.

J

Don't apply for outdoor dining, they can't receive that five hundred dollars, if they don't so, is that.

J

Discriminatory if they do not participate and can't receive that they all have to participate.

J

But half of them who have outdoor dining can come back and get another 500 off. I guess I would be a.

J

Little upset if I was somebody who didn't want to participate, and the guy next to me is getting the.

J

Sidewalk and also the discount, so I'd like for you to think about that. Also and um last of all this.

J

Doesn't really have it from my perspective, this doesn't have anything to do with the revenue in.

J

The city it has to do with the city coming out two years ago and happily supporting this during covet.

J

And giving up our sidewalk space and something I I noticed that was not mentioned in the discussion.

J

Here is, this is also the residence sidewalks and roads we pay for them and when you actually.

J

Cut the the revenue of the parking spaces we that that becomes a subsidy on the side of the of all.

J

Of the rest of the residents- and I would ask you to think about that too I mean there was a lot of.

J

Money that came into restaurants and businesses, all over town and the residents did not receive.

J

Anything this we pay taxes for these sidewalks, so I would ask you to consider that also and the.

J

Last thing would be: um I really think that that the public deserves a public hearing on this, as.

J

This will decrease our revenue. Thank you. Thank you. Any other members of the public who would like to.

B

Speak, mr edgar, you just walked in house calling members of the public to speak. Is it possible? Yes,.

B

Literally, just in time feel free to take a seat. uh Please state your name if you're a resident and.

B

um We're gonna try to end in the next five to ten minutes, so you could keep it under three yeah.

K

um And it's kevin dwyer. I live at 461 middle street in portsmouth and own doors pub at 96.

K

Birch street in portsmouth- and I just wanted to continue to advocate for the outdoor dining.

K

Program I hear everybody's side. I definitely am not looking for a handout and I still to this day.

K

Like I've been going over last year's numbers, it actually accounts for a smaller portion of.

K

Our sales to still our record high month in sales, we did completely without outdoor.

K

But I grew up in fort smith: I'm a fan of the program, I'm a fan of portsmouth. I think it's just.

K

As somebody that's trying to invest my business in this community, I think it keeps us interesting.

K

And I want to do it in a practical way and a cost efficient way. But I just wanted to advocate for.

K

Keeping portsmouth interesting and and doing so in a way that economically, we can do our.

K

Best in our patios and not spend more of the money on the fees. Thank you. Thank you, mr dwyer.

B

Has anyone joined on zoom they have not and there's currently the emotion which.

B

I made to adopt these, then we amended it. Should we essentially vote on the amended.

B

Policy or we could have staff, come back with a version for the city council.

C

Based on the discussion, how did did you both leave it? It would come back under your name. I was.

E

Planning to submit it tomorrow again under my name with changes from that were recommended for from.

E

The fee study committee, assuming that there would be also a report back from the fee study committee,.

E

um But I was planning to do that because um there's a second part of the motion that.

E

Has never been discussed at city council, I got referred before. We even got to that and that's.

E

Also, a really important part of of the proposal, so what up uh the same manager would it make sense if.

B

At the next day council meeting, it appears under both their names. The proposal with amendments.

B

However, under our names, we could do report back what we'd likely just suspend the rules to let.

B

Them go first, I'm not sure how we would we'd figure that part out yeah. That would that would.

F

Make sense, procedurally yep all right right, uh councilor, bagley yeah, just a couple quick comments.

D

um I know we need to turn the room over um hill street came up mr gwyer's establishment. He does.

D

Have two parking spaces in front that he could use, but I do think it's in the best interests of the.

D

City and the neighborhood, where it was located previously rather than in those parking spaces.

D

um So I think that's just looking out, for you know what makes the most sense. The second thing.

D

I would say is, I did speak early on with the city manager and the thought is after we pass this.

D

Policy, we could then uh take the time to do three readings and make it an ordinance, so it'd kind.

D

Of be like, uh we get a policy implement it for this year and then you know in the middle of the.

D

Summer or in the fall, we could do a three reading ordinance and have a public hearing with a little.

D

Bit more data under our belts, I will say last year we heard from about 200 residents by email.

D

Primarily, residence and it was overwhelmingly in favor this year, we've probably heard significantly.

D

Less maybe 20 or 30, and I would say it's mostly in favor, maybe not as much in favor as it was before.

D

um But yeah I mean I don't think, there's anything the city does that ever has a hundred percent.

D

um Agreement yeah, I can only count four people who are generally opposed to outdoor dining.

C

Of the feedback that we've gotten there, I I would say it's a higher number than that, but.

D

um I think there's some who are concerned about the traffic lanes and some we were concerned about.

C

um Aesthetics but.

C

Total opposition.

B

Well, thank you to city staff. Thank you, counselors, bagley and cook. Thank you.

B

Members of the public, I'm looking forward to voting for this at the upcoming meeting and.

B

I'm still going to push for my amendment for outdoor dining, continuous current spaces. Okay,.

F

Do we need a motion to adjure.

B

You can do that, so I moved second hall in favor all right hi. Thank you. Thank you.