City of Portsmouth, New Hampshire Governance Committee, 27 Feb 2023

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2.27.2023 Governance Committee

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An hour inside, we also did that that's different homosexuality.

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Representative.

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We think you know the genetics. Are there.

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I call this meeting of the governance committee to order. I will start with a roll call. Let's go.

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With counselor lombardi first today, I am here counselor tabor here and I'm counselor cook and.

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I am also here. The first item on our agenda is to review the minutes from january 30th. 2023.

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Did everyone have a chance to look at the january minutes, yes and I'll move to approve? Second.

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All in favor all right aye, any opposed no minutes are approved.

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Today, we're we're talking about uh the donations policy first, under old business.

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And we have the deputy city manager, suzanne woodland here and deputy city attorney as well.

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Who's been we're helping us shepherd the donations policy through the governance committee and has.

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Been working directly on the draft, so I'm going to turn it over her to share with us thoughts on.

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The newest drafts great so after the last meeting of the governance committee, I took the comments.

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That the committee members provided created a updated draft then circulated that updated draft.

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To the city departments um to get feedback in preparation for this meeting, I got feedback from.

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Most of the departments I'm missing, I did not hear back from the school department.

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um Everyone's been working on budgets, so that would be the one that the big.

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One that I did not yet hear back from, but by and large, a good responses and.

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um I think the suggestions that I got would be ones that you would welcome, so I can walk.

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Through those we'll go through those page by page, um but on the whole I think there was generally.

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um Favorable in terms of this and appreciation for kind of um finding that balance point between.

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Working with some of the existing policies that are already out there, recognizing that this is.

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A city council policy and we will have our own procedures. You know in terms of how departments.

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You know handle different requests. You know we had a lot of good comments about like okay, so.

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We just want to make sure our soup, you know if our supervisors are contacted about a donation.

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Here's how to move it through the city system for consideration, so it was good there's some.

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Nice conversation happening to make sure we're have common practices um which we seem to based.

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On the comments I got, but maybe documenting them a little better on our side on the internal side, but.

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By and large people thought we, this draft had kind of struck that balance between the city council.

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Umbrella and then all of the implementation pieces that get done on a day-to-day basis.

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um So what I'll do is if it's, okay with you accounts or cook, I will just walk through the.

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Red line version that I provided, and I just shared the redline version on the screen so that anyone.

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At home kit, who's watching can see this great. um So under one objective and purpose, we just.

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Took care of a typo, I have to think I think it was todd henley who found that one for me.

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um Under scope, 2.1 um just a little bit of reworking of the language for clarity purposes,.

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To talk about how this policy will interplay with the school board, the library trustees.

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um So that was not substantive, so much as just wordsmithing.

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Under section 2.2.

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um Again, wordsmithing under 2.2 a.

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Under 2.2 c, just a little bit of clarity that it's article 8 we're talking about under 2.2 d, this is.

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Adding language very specifically that grants from any source are not covered by this donation policy.

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It must be brought forward to the city council for acceptance, which is the current practice.

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That was something the committee had pointed out, as would be helpful to have more express language.

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um I just have a quick question for me, um so this is a policy correct.

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um Is there a reason it shouldn't be an ordinance.

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You don't have to answer that now yeah! No, I was I was. I was thinking. I've seen it mostly as policies.

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Rather than ordinances, you know when you, when you do the you know, quick, google search as you're.

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Looking to see what other municipalities are doing, that's not to say that the ordinance doesn't.

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You know, as you guys look at conflict of interest, that there might be pieces within the ordinance.

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That need more strength, um more firmness to it than a policy, so I think there's definitely an.

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Interplay- and I think the question is how much you want to do in a policy versus an ordinance.

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um You know policy is a little more flexible and forgiving.

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um So it may be kind of trying to strike that balance between key items that you might want.

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To capture in your conflict of interest review, you might want to hit a couple of.

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Those pieces hard and leave them in and put them in an ordinance, so they buttress this up.

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But I'm not sure there's a hard and fast rule. So much as you have a little more flexibility.

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With a with a policy to make it easier to adapt- um and um you know you don't have that three.

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Readings process, so you know, if uh you know, if you decide oh you're, hearing rumblings, you know that.

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Something's, not working in the policy or a department is doing something differently or.

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You want the library to send you reports all the time, because something happened in the library.

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Hypothetically everything's been going fine, but this would give you a more an easier path. I.

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Think to make changes and say: oh well, that's not delivering what we thought it would for either.

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Oversight or or understanding, and so you could take that up more readily to make adjustments.

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It's a good question to think about it: yeah yeah, well, yeah yeah, so.

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Okay, sorry, no! No! No! That's! That was, I think, yeah flexibility. I mean.

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People give to the city for a public purpose, but I think they give thinking.

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The governing body is going to accept it and um therefore, if the gifts were.

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Given and tightly controlled by ordinance, you'd take away the council's flexibility.

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To say you know we want to use this money for this. You know your public purpose is education. Will.

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Do a scholarship fund or whatever, but that I think that.

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That active role for the council is better with a policy seems to me.

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But it's a good question.

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We're ready under section 2.3 definitions, I added language with regard to items that are that come.

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Up to be auctioned, so donations include items to be auctioned as part of a fundraising event.

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That actually, that question actually came from the recreation department who said well what about.

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And I assumed for discussion purposes. I would put it in here in the way that I did.

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And then, if you think differently, we can have a conversation about it, but I thought it was a good.

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Catch in terms of thinking about the types of things that we accept- and you know I, it seemed.

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Logical that, if we're going to be gathering items for auction, particularly if they have specific.

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Value, you know if it's a thousand dollars trip for vacation weekend or something that.

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You know the city council would want to to accept that if it's a substantial donation to that effect.

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And not just a little twenty dollar gift card, um so that's why I included it, but I'm I just I.

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Thought it was a good catch by the recreation department. How? How should we treat these.

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I do have a question around that, um so there are two points at which we can accept donations.

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In this scenario, we can accept them as a donation of the item to be auctioned and then accept the.

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Money from the auction, but in some ways that's double counting: a donation because you're getting.

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A donations that you're auctioning off that then you're taking funds from so I don't know.

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For accounting purposes, how do we account for those types of donations? Do we do we count the.

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Original item at all, or do we just count the cash donation that's coming in? We would just.

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I'm sure I expect count the cash, but I'm happy to follow up with the finance director and see.

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um If she has a view on this, because this came in actually after I had the finance director's.

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Input so I thought I'd take comments from this meeting. Go back kind of follow up with.

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The school department follow up again with the finance director to get you the next evolution.

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um As we kind of make our way through the process, so it's a good question. I can ask.

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Her how she would treat that okay, thank you, could it be worded. Donations include the value of items.

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To be auctioned, or is that a little weird, because you don't have the value until they're, auctioned.

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Yeah, I think it well. Some things would be easier to set a value on or not. If.

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It happened to be a piece of artwork, then it might actually be hard to set a value on it.

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You're right you're, just accepting the gift for purposes of a fundraising event.

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um In some ways, I have to say it would be nice to have these types of option. Events take place.

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Not under the city umbrella, but under a separate non-profit group. So in some ways this is almost a.

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Will pay attention to it? There's a lot more process if you, if you are going to do it as a.

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City piece versus letting that, outside you know, parent organization or or arts group or whatever.

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Fundraising group to actually take on entirely the responsibility for that fundraising effort.

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And then delivering one check from that event to the city in my ideal world. That would be what.

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Would happen, which is those outside entities, would actually be really doing that fundraising effort.

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And then just turning over the proceeds from that event directly to the to the city, yeah we've had.

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This conversation in the archive committee and things and pretty much we've decided that things.

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Donated would probably go through organizations that are participating.

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Well, I, if somebody donates an item for a city, auction city run auction. Do they even get credit.

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On their taxes, for it I mean they will wear the 501c3 right, but if they donate, you know, foreign.

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That might be an additional um policy we develop uh on uh fundraisers.

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And like we might want a short little policy on fundraisers that suggests that any fundraising.

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At that, that should a city committee choose to hold a fundraiser that they partner with.

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A non-profit to serve as the agent fiscal agent for that fundraising event.

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um So that might be a separate thing that we look at um because I realize this is very difficult.

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um The the donors don't get a tax deduction for their donation, which a lot of donors are.

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Looking for in making a donation um and and this would uh allow individuals to donate to a cause.

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Right, that's closely associated with also a non-profit in town.

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Why don't I get some feedback? Okay from the finance director from an accounting point of.

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View and also touch base with recreation again because it seems to be coming up, particularly.

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In that realm, most recently right right, that is that's one of the most recent examples we.

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Have but you can foresee this happening elsewhere, so playgrounds we've got any.

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Number of wonderful projects that we'd love to get launched in so yeah. Thank you.

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Okay, under section 2.4 examples of donations. um We added the word instruments because sometimes.

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People want to donate pianos, for example, you know so they're just examples, and I thought.

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Well, it's kind of good just to get people thinking more broadly about types of things.

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That are offered to us it's interesting, because when I read instruments I thought of like testing.

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Instruments, you know water testing, um you know it could be that too. It's not a band instruments for.

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The high school- it could be that too, okay, so section [music] 3.1, just fixing a word there.

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um For okay and then 3.2, what I did is kind of reorganize. This section for clarity by and large.

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So there really was not a substantive change. The school board still has the authority to accept.

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You know funds for its programs, provided it's consistent with the policy, the library of trustees.

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Have the authority to accept consistent again with their programs and policies.

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Then we have to make it clear: the society manager shall have the authority to accept donations of.

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Values of a hundred dollars or less without action by the city council and then the city.

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Manager shall prepare for informational purposes only a quarterly report to the city identifying.

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All such donations so accepted so just making it clear. She's got that authority to get the.

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Money in get it going where it needs to be, and then we'll do her quarterly report. Generally, the.

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Name of the donor and the amount of the donation and any program or trust to which the donation.

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Was directed will be identified in the report as we do now, all other donations shall be submitted.

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To the city council for acceptance and then, as we talked about last time or maybe we didn't.

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um I can't tell whether I moved this section around, so this is under 3.3. This is dealing.

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With kind of the situation that christine freeze mentioned at the library, which is sometimes you.

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Need to round up you know they say, oh just round up, keep the change and just allowing that process.

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To know that it can happen as a matter of course, um and then, as we talked about again, that there.

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Are donors in situations where it is preferred that the donation be treated as anonymous to.

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The extent possible and as may be permitted by the state's open meeting and public records law.

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Referenced how the police department sometimes prefers um uh to basically not publicize. I mean.

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That's really what it comes down to it's, just not publicizing who the donor is um again. It's.

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All limited, though, by what may be allowed by law. So that's what I tried to do there and if.

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I'm right here this will also change some of those provisions on um uh smaller donations for things.

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Like gift cards coming before the council, because they'll just go to the city manager, so exactly so.

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It'll move its way up to the police department to the police commission. But if it's just a 25.

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Gift card she can just take care of it and it'll go and get distributed to where it needs to go.

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Okay, um so you may recall we had some challenging we kind of went back and forth at the last meeting.

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On what to do about the original 4.2, which is donations, cannot confer personal benefit, and I.

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Struggled I went back and forth with how to write that and I thought, knowing that.

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You guys are going to be working on the conflict of interest. You know we already.

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Have some language in there that kind of talks about an employee's obligation.

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Not to do things for their own benefit and not to take gifts and other practices. I thought well.

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Because it's so hard to! Because of the intersections with the ordinance and where.

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You guys may go. I just take that out, because it is to some degree covered by the existing ordinance.

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um And I just didn't see many, you know other than some really weird. You know kind of set.

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Of circumstances, I thought it's probably best left in the ordinance. You know as a clear this.

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Is what you can and cannot do and then, as you guys, kind of look at that and whether it makes sense to.

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Tweak that at all in your process, so that was my thinking there, knowing that we had an interplay.

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um With the existing ordinance um not fixed on that, I just I kind of tried to wordsmith.

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Around for a while- and I was like you know, I would just couldn't find a really good answer.

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Without kind of linking back to the ordinance um and all the limitations said in the conflict of.

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Interest ordinance, but doesn't old 4.3 actually cover that anyway. Yes, exactly that's that was.

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Why, when I looked at that, I was like okay, we kind of we've covered it there. So maybe, let's not muck.

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It up suggesting that there's some different standard than we have elsewhere. So, yes, yep.

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Then we get to six ineligible donors and I was you know we were struggling with.

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What to do about the individual lobbyists who might have kids in school, who wants to donate.

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um So I I put in there for discussion purposes.

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That really maybe it's really, we don't want an organization.

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You know because most at least a number of lobbyists are connected with actual.

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Organizations who have been hired for a particular.

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Purpose or a law firm that has a lobbyist associated with their efforts, so that was my.

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Attempt to strike that balance, um so that was isn't peter weeks technically a lobbyist.

C

I mean I just think of you know, I don't know if he's registered with the secretary.

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Of state as a someone who lobbies on behalf of you know at the state house yeah, I have.

B

One question around this and this would go to the school. So when you hear back from them, this might be a good question to ask them um what, if the teachers union.

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um Is registered as a lobbyist organization um for lobbying purposes and is wanting.

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To make a donation to the schools in some way, former fashion, I guess that's.

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That's the only place where I see this. A potential conflict is our actual unions. If.

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They are registered as lobbyists for our employee unions and if they ever make individual or make.

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Donations to the city, so I will. I will suss that out. Let me get some feedback, I I think they are.

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They may hire occasionally lobbyists, but I don't think they themselves, although they will testify.

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Right just different, um but let me let me look into that. Okay and then on my list. I guess the new.

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Hampshire municipal association, too yep um because they do engage in lobbying. I don't know if they're.

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Registered as a lobbyist organization, but any um any support they provide us.

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um Would that be considered a donation?

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I guess that would be always in advice, yeah advice or so that's the the only question making sure.

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That that doesn't impact yeah our ability to yeah be members because we're members. So let's get okay.

F

Okay, all right follow up.

E

Hey and I added a bullet point for persons and entities with pending applications for.

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Permits or other municipal approvals yeah, I guess my question on that is, I think, of.

C

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A developer offers to give a piece of land and, as part of the contract, part of a swap a swap.

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Like we did yeah, I don't see that as a donation, because it's a part of a land use approval process.

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um So that's how I see those when I think of you know the couple of cases where you know the city.

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Gave a little piece and they gave a little piece like we did with the west end yards and.

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That whole development out there to build the new road. So that is not that's. You know kind.

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Of mutual consideration yeah, I mean I think, of mark mcnabb, who generally wants to improve the.

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Sidewalks and the things around his buildings, um and again that's similar to that- um I don't see it.

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As a donation, because, typically there's a some other request for specific relief of some type.

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um Go ahead and it's probably part of a conditional use permit or exaction.

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Process, yeah everything yeah. This would, however, um ban people who.

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Are currently in a pending litigation, around land use for one project from potentially donated to.

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A playground or I could yes it could. Yes, I don't know if we've ever encountered that as a city.

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um I think that's okay. I didn't put litigation in here simply because litigation is so long standing.

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um We could tweak this language, that's why I put it in here, so we could have a discussion about it.

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I'm not sure I have an easy answer, and this is the beauty of it being a policy, because it's a policy.

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It's easier for the city council to say: well, this really doesn't fall into what weed had intended by.

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This provision, that is the plus side of it being a policy, is that you could say actually, when we.

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When we adopted this, we did not intend to cover, say something that winds up in litigation for 20.

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Years, just on a matter where there's not actually something pending right now before a board.

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My goal was to take, and this is why it is sort of narrow, with pending applications for.

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Permits or other municipal approvals thinking, it's it's here in front of an existing ford.

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Or the city council versus it's just hung up in litigation for five years.

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So as not to make it over broad, knowing that litigation is slow and that the judge is not.

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Related to the municipal entity, so right, that's in part why I made that somewhat intentionally narrow.

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um Okay, there's what's within our direct theoretically means to influence in some.

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Ways or to look like we could influence it, even if we can't.

B

It's reasonable so yeah, it just says in pending legislative pending litigation, not actually in.

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Litigation yeah, so it would be somebody who is currently considering legal action against.

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Or potentially pending applications for permits or other municipal approvals, so it's.

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Really in that wheelhouse of there's something before us yeah, because we do sometimes have.

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Residents or entities who may have something before the htc or or something and and we'd like.

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To say finish that approval process first then come to us with whatever donation you want to make.

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Because, even though we know that the boards are quasi-judicial right,.

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Right, there's just having that little bit of separation um that we think might be beneficial.

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um But that was our you know, there's no hard and fast rule on this and I was trying to.

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Thread the needle here in terms of um you, know, optics to some degree. I think it's a.

D

There's always the appearance of conflict can be as corrosive as the actual conflict.

D

This prevents that yeah yeah, okay, okay,.

E

And then I just tweaked that language there at the end of the bullet points under six. So is that.

C

Actually, a bullet point number, two, four, six, seven! uh No! I just left it as a standalone paragraph.

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And the donations from certain persons and entities such as arms manufacturers, certain.

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Drug manufacturers and tobacco companies that may require special attention. Consideration.

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And evaluation, I could make it a bullet point. The question I think of is wilcox industries.

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Is that you know, does that fall under that, and I know he gives a lot of. He does a lot to the.

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City yep boom. I just wonder if people who are you know really anti weapons and stuff like that.

C

That's in part, why I didn't put it in the list of but are not limited to, and I just put it as.

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A separate paragraph, it was to just say you might want to pay special attention to those donations.

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Right so it's a more affirmative.

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Consideration it's it kind of flags it. We could be more specific and say.

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May not be prohibited, but may require special attention and consideration and evaluation, because.

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I think that's kind of what I heard last time. It just depends on the context, and so I could add a.

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Little bit of language, making it clear that they're not per se ineligible, but one would.

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Want to be thoughtful in one's deliberation on it, should I add some language like that. That would be.

B

Wonderful, actually, I think, that's good, because I think that it to me looked like an exclusion.

C

Of wilcox, which is not the intention yeah yeah, we just want to be mindful yep exactly, and it.

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May depend on the purpose and like we talked about so I will add some language to that: okay,.

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um Section seven: uh this was just to make it clearer that you know, as the managers you know.

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Signing off in the 20 or five dollar donations that it's the accepted donations that we can.

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Spend and then the larger ones until they go to the city council will be like currently.

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We put them in a little special huh sort of accounting bubble, so um paragraph two 12 I just.

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You know wordsmithing just made when one word will do instead of multiple make it shorter.

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um And then cleaned up really just a lot of formatting stuff so that it.

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Would read a little bit clearer? I was just curious in 13, we've got language.

D

That says about a note of gratitude sent by the department. Yep was that thinking a.

D

An affected department of the city, or do you want to say it from the city, uh be good, probably to say.

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From the city and then we'll figure out internally, whether it actually comes from the city manager,.

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Or you know if it's someone, the rec department, has a relationship with yeah I'll change that.

C

I guess I'll get back to nine yep. I wondered.

C

If that's already covered back in now, I've lost part of that.

E

Oh yeah yeah, you know what I think I meant to take.

E

That out, since I covered it up there somewhere yeah.

E

Yep, I meant to take that out once I put it up in the other place. Thank you.

A

B

um I have a question here around: um do do we need a special section or clause on.

B

um Right of refusal for donations- yep I've been through it repeatedly, but it's not yeah 3.1 yep right. It may elect to accept.

D

Or decline any donation exactly, um but do we want do we want that specified by itself, which is what.

B

I'm really asking like um oh look, I separately called out right so that it's really clear yep.

B

um I'm just thinking about the section on ineligible donations, yep and.

B

I want it to be clear that it's not just these items that are ineligible if the city deems.

B

Anything yep, it is not an appropriate donation. Yep. um Do you have a preference on how you'd like.

E

It called out, or shall I just play with it and deliver something back to you at the next meeting.

B

Yes, that's fine, you know something like right of refusal, yep all right, yep, because.

A

I'd say: general authority doesn't seem to make.

B

Make it clear that it's there is a rite of refusal will do. I can work on that. Okay,.

B

I really liked that in the library policy yep, okay.

B

Anything else I took a look um there's a good article by terry knowles.

D

Years, 20 years has been the charitable division of the attorney general.

D

And she was explaining that in state law.

D

There's three classes of of gifts, monetary gifts, unrestricted temporarily, restricted like a.

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Campaign for prescott park and permanently restricted like prescott park, sisters.

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Trust funds- um and she was just saying in this article um when people make those larger gifts.

D

It's really important to have clarity about the purpose of the gift and who administers it.

D

And you know, if that's so, do we have any um regimen that we go through if we get a major.

D

Gift like that that we capture in writing- this is what the gift is for. This is how it's administered.

E

um That's a good question and I would say it's easy when it goes into an existing.

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Trust because then the trust terms, kind of capture that- and I want to say that's.

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Where most of our larger gifts other than those that have maybe have been.

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Related to a capital campaign such as the african bearing ground right.

E

I'm so I think we've done you know, we've done it, but it may not be.

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I don't know if we have a formal like structure but yeah we did introduce the form now. The simple.

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One page exactly form which gets to some of it: it does. It does um because we intend to keep.

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Using that form for stuff, that's coming up to you right, um you know. Maybe we tweaked the form.

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So that it has unrestricted, you know temporarily restricted permanently restricted, or you know like.

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There's a check box to kind of force that so maybe we could tweak that right form a little.

E

Bit or I could add a little language in here that says, you know it's presumed unrestricted unless.

E

There is specific, you know and I could figure out some language for anything. That's temporarily.

E

Restricted or permanently restricted, I could do that add a little language in here. Her point was.

D

You know from the point of view of the charitable division they assume whatever.

D

Was written as the purpose in a particularly in a permanent restriction? Is perpetual and.

D

And people may want to change it later, five years later, 20 years later, 100 years later, and it comes.

D

To them and she's saying, is it clear from the start what the purpose of that major gift is.

B

I think I think that you're right on this is something that maybe a form making sure the form.

B

Has that information directly attached to it in some way or another.

B

So that we are keeping very good records right, yep.

D

It's always good to clarify with the donor, by getting it and writing yes, what exactly is it.

D

She also made the point that there can't be private donations for public purpose, that.

D

Have ingrained in them any discriminatory language like.

D

If I'm going to start a scholarship for boys to go, you know yeah.

D

um More, there was a case in sandwich where there was a scholarship fund for protestant boys.

D

So that, obviously, once it enters in the public realm, we it can't can't do that.

C

It was a good article.

D

So I'm past it they can do that chairman. Thank you right. Thank you thanks. Would you like me to.

E

Copy that and distribute it yeah that would be wonderful, yep. Okay, I will send it around yeah.

B

Do we have any more questions or concerns around donations policy today.

D

This to me, is it making sure that the the donor, particularly if it's a business.

D

And we have it in 4.1, no advantages to accrue to the donor, family, business or other relations.

D

I mean you can think of all kinds of for instances. You know.

D

So the coca-cola distributor who supplies all the sodas to the cafeteria.

D

You know starts making donations that the school department comes to depend on.

D

How is is that relationship too close.

D

The city goes down the root of a.

D

A hockey break that a private company builds and they want to fund a hockey coach.

D

And they start offering that as part of the deal.

D

Those kinds of things I think, that's just where we want to be.

D

They should be freely given with no quid pro quo.

A

So, with your permission, I'll take this feedback get a little do a little tweaking here and there.

E

I will follow up with the school and make sure that we get some response or if they want to.

E

Take it to the you know if they want to take it to the school board formally or just kind.

E

Of check in and see how it's consistent or not particularly thinking of some of the.

E

Issues you've raised, maybe nathan would be willing to uh or zach.

E

And those are all pure hypothetics right right, but and and they may not.

D

There's multiple ways to look at them right.

E

So let me reach out and make sure that this is kind of rising to their level of attention. Like.

E

I said they've been working on their budget, yes, so yes, but they may have some bandwidth now for the.

E

Next couple weeks, so this may be good for me to take this back. Okay, um I'm uh as far as scheduling.

B

Goes, I think we should try to discuss this at our next meeting and hopefully at that point, be ready.

B

To advance it um to the council for discussion there, so so that's the timeline that I have so.

B

um On march 13th- and we would discuss this again- but hopefully in a final form-.

B

With that said, if, if there's nothing else, we will move on to our next item.

B

The next item on the agenda is the parks, discussion and next steps.

B

um We had a a really fruitful discussion, I felt in our last meeting uh and I think that the parties.

B

That gathered here for that meeting um were a very collegial group to work together and they they.

B

Did express an interest in continuing to meet and having further discussion with that said, I wanted.

B

To find out what the committee's reflections were on that discussion and next steps moving forward.

B

If we should um what we should do at this stage to shepherd those discussions and make sure that they.

B

Are occurring or if, if we envision some different format, council, no, I concur with you. I thought.

D

The next step is to continue that conversation, because I thought it opened up a number of lines.

D

Of inquiry and that could result in in policy changes. I think my takeaway on that was that.

C

um Maybe the best way to proceed but well to continue this discussion, but also that.

C

um Representatives of the various committees form of some sort of subcommittee as an ongoing thing.

C

I might be wrong, but that was that was a takeaway. I thought was there.

C

Little figure was expressed overnight, but.

B

That was generally my understanding. They would, they should gather to discuss, but getting them.

B

To do so, I think, requires some kind of production structure for those meetings.

B

um Which, um oh I don't my I guess my real questions are on this are: who do we put in charge.

B

Of of scheduling those discussions, who do we ask to be in charge of that? And um and how do.

B

You know how do we make sure that they're um they have that opportunity to follow through.

E

It is my understanding that um the recreation board right now is reconsidering it's um role. It's.

E

You know it's governing ordinance and basically its mission, so they're in those conversations.

E

So it I would say it may be that you've been heard or the community's been heard, a little.

E

Bit about kind of looking beyond the more you know the more traditional just programming piece.

E

um So I think they are having conversations with an opportunity than to perhaps report back.

E

um Because maybe they fold that into their mission, which is to convene.

A

Quarterly or twice a year.

E

Some kind of collection of the assembled committee folks, who we had here at the.

E

Last governance committee, you know involving the conservation commission and one of our purposes.

C

B

Do we have do we have any timeline at all on how long it will take them to do their evaluation.

E

I can find out, I know they were talking about it um along because todd henley, the recreation.

E

Director kind of gave me a heads up that they are looking at their mission and some of their.

E

Other just procedural housekeeping pieces because they're governing ordinance is thin.

E

Yes, it's very thin. I was looking at it this morning, [laughter], so they are looking at it. Okay,.

E

Right, that's positive. um I can try and get you a feedback to let you know whether it should come up.

E

On the next agenda, whether they might be here with some hey, this is what we're thinking of. I don't.

E

Know but I can get that feedback for you and you can then decide how you want to handle it from a.

E

Chair point of view: does that seem sensible? Okay, all right. Maybe this is unfair, but I.

C

Had this sense that you don't want to lose control and um by dilute control, I'll, say.

C

So you're smiling, so I don't know it's one board. I I don't staff so.

B

um I felt that you know after that discussion. It really seems like the conservation commission.

B

Has a huge role in in this space in thinking about open spaces and potential for open spaces um and.

B

Their expertise is sometimes lost to the rest of the other committees that.

B

Deal with us so it it would be very helpful. I think, to at least have the conversation with.

B

um Parks around and maybe even trees and greenery, and around inviting the conservation commission in.

B

Or at least a representative from conservation commission to share expertise, um it seems like.

B

It could save a lot of time and energy if, if you have somebody who's who understands limitations.

B

For open space.

E

And has their eye on opportunities because they're kind of aware of, what's being developed,.

E

You know as a result of the applications that they hear and what a budding parcels might.

E

You know might be going on in the abutting parcels and so yeah yeah.

B

I think that that's really critical, because I know that we we have some serious space limitations in.

B

The city, so we have to be mindful of what is actually available space and what is not yeah.

D

Yeah and we have we have open space, that's um tier one usable, you can put paths in it.

D

You can do whatever we have tier two and three that's marsh and brambles, and not not usable.

D

D

It's a mix, I think their expertise is important.

D

It's interesting that I think it's dover has an open space committee so rather than view.

D

It as parks they put the emphasis on open space, I don't know the scope or duties.

D

And, as we talked about there's lots of other towns and cities that parks and recreation are.

D

Combined into one entity, so if you're a matrix person and think the city is a.

D

Organization can benefit from a matrix of the different groups that we had.

D

um That may be one route to go. How often do they meet? uh How do they drive action.

D

Or if you're more of a chain of command type of person, you know, maybe you have a a.

D

One board that that uh tries to make things happen and in existing parks finding new.

D

Parks and programming for parks parks. So it's an interesting discussion. I think.

D

I think a lot of light bulbs went on when we had that group and they each started seeing.

D

What the others expertise can bring, and I agree that the conservation commission.

D

Knows the most about the inventory of land, the characteristics of the land.

D

So it's it, I think it's a it! It's not a one-part meeting that we had and.

D

Last time I think it's a multi-part, it's a four or five parter, maybe so.

D

That's the next step is to keep going down that road yeah. It was certainly my sense that.

E

There were there were a lot of takeaways from that meeting, that the recreation board in particular is.

E

Noodling over and I think, certainly the conservation commission commission really.

E

Has in its wheelhouse and has for a long time that open space piece and the acquisition of open space.

E

um So I think the question is how how to get that synergy.

E

That we're looking for um or you're looking for right and I think it's also important.

B

To bring in the prescott park master plan implementation committee understands the.

B

Strategic planning process around some of these spaces, if, once you have kind of an idea of where.

B

And what is possible and where the idea around well then, how does it developed um and how do we.

B

Make sure that the resources are like questions around evenly distributed through the city? What.

B

Resources go where based upon that not just around what the land can hold, but.

B

You know it's it's things like now. We have a skate park going in in a specific location.

B

um Well, the other spaces that we have available. Is it.

B

Is the most logical place to have a ball field? What's the most logical place to not have to.

B

Not have any, you know, because of not just open space, but because of um uh what makes.

B

Sense for the for individuals in the city and their usage- I guess the the wreck needs study.

E

Which I believe you will be seeing shortly um will help inform that as well. So I think.

E

um You'll certainly have that opportunity to review that and and at the next meeting.

E

You will have that ability, you know, maybe you bring some of those.

E

Folks back together because the rec need study will be there and we make sure that the.

E

Recreation department or the recreation committee has.

E

You know all barbara's information from the conservation commission, so maybe it's another.

E

Conversation with that larger group, when we have these other pieces that we're going to have.

E

Shortly, I think the other piece to keep in mind is that we are, you know, working on the climate action.

E

Plan that will actually probably inform some of our thinking um as to open space and parks.

E

um Right so there are pieces that are coming together right so right I was just having this.

B

Conversation around planning and when the master plan process will ultimately get begin, which is.

B

um You know a little while, but but fairly soon, and how all of these different planning pieces.

B

Do have to wrap into that, um including the climate action plan and the open spaces plan that we have.

B

Now in place and potentially the cultural plan as well, that the cultural land sub committee is.

B

Working on, and so um what kind of planning can this group kind of do to supplement that around.

B

Open space parks, not just the open space plan but parks. um You know between now and end of december.

B

I guess is the real question yeah um so that their the feedback is noted.

B

So maybe at this point should we try to um I'm happy to reach out to the entire group.

B

And see if they what assistance they would need if they wanted to schedule. Another meeting.

B

My understanding is, they can meet, um they can clearly meet without us at present, but.

B

Also, you know if they need our assistance and scheduling, I'm happy to offer it. If.

B

The other committee members are as well, but um maybe we can ask them if they're willing.

B

To move forward and then also ask wreck if they would share with us um their thoughts.

D

I think if they do get together, we should give them a framing question to answer.

D

Something like.

D

How how does the city.

D

Increase its open space for public use and activate.

D

Existing space.

D

For recreation and enjoyment, something like that like to stab at it anyway,.

A

Okay, it's actually a pretty good question. Well,.

D

Sleep on it and it'll reveal its deficiencies. The next time.

B

Does everyone here want me to just reach out to them and say just to find out if they're.

B

um If they have plans to meet or if they want us to facilitate that or how how they would.

B

Like to proceed, how long we want to put them to work? Okay, yeah right, I'm happy to do that.

B

And then um also, I would ask you to reach out to wreck for us if that's okay, yep.

B

um Around any plans that they are thinking, changes, they're thinking about.

B

Yep, that's good! That's good! Okay! um Last thing I have.

B

On the agenda for discussion today is committee structure which we started talking about.

B

um Last week I shared a, I shared a powerpoint with you. I don't know if I can, if I bring it up, it's.

B

Not going to automatically share it, so I'm gonna have to um unshare my screen again and re-share.

B

I specifically brought up this section on blue ribbon committees to look at today, because we're.

B

Discussing um we're discussing really committee structure and sorry, I keep moving it trying to.

B

Get in the right place um and when we talked when I was sharing this with you last time, I.

B

Was trying to highlight all the different types of committees that we have and um and and one of.

B

The reasons I wanted to do that is, I I wanted to make it clear how confusing this is for kind of.

B

Outsiders who are not part of the the city system either not working for the city or um haven't.

B

Served around a year, at least on the city council, to start understanding the way the committees work.

B

um But I think one of the most confusing um committee subsections we have is the.

B

Blue ribbon committees, and the reason I say this is that there is there's no definition.

B

Of a blue ribbon committee anywhere, there are no parameters for blue ribbon committees, written down.

B

Anywhere, it's just a tradition of the council that the mayor can establish a blue ribbon committee.

B

um By a simple vote of the council and those committees, then their tasks really come from.

B

That motion or that vote of the council, but they don't have real, clear parameters on time frame or.

B

um And I think it's confusing to individuals too, who serve sometimes on these committees. They join.

B

And they say: what are we? What are we supposed to be doing here and what is the timeline? I think.

B

We saw a little bit of that from the coveted response task force they started meeting. They.

B

Were really unclear on you know how much time do we have? What exactly does the council want.

B

As far as recommendations go and partly you know, this is because of this very informal structure.

B

So my question to this committee is that we have several blue ribbon committees that have.

B

Been around for a very long time, and I think the original intention of blue ribbon committees was.

B

That they would be temporary in nature that they would serve a particular purpose for a particular.

B

Period of time to answer a question for the council, um so I have a two-fold issue here:.

B

Should we somewhere create language that defines what blue ribbon committees are.

B

So that people understand that somewhere in the administrative ordinance just put.

B

In a paragraph that says, blue ribbons, blue ribbon committees can be appointed to solve a particular.

B

Challenge in a certain time frame with you know appointees made by that serve at the.

B

Willingness of the mayor during the mayor's term and are re-established with each new mayoral term.

B

Or do we not do we not think that's necessary, and, secondly, should we look at our current list of.

B

Liberty committees and see if any of them should be considered standing committees at this point.

B

And moved into an ordinance format because of the length of their function, and this is an ongoing.

B

Question so this might be something that we can't answer for all of these committees now, but we.

B

Might be able to in a few months so um as things evolve. So that's my question to this committee.

B

Does anyone winner? Well, I think we have to look at it yeah. I think.

C

um I'm just looking at this list is this: the complete list of blue ribboners. There are.

C

More on the next page, this is the complete list of blue ribbon committees. Currently.

C

I mean, I think there are things that are more generational. Also, I mean generational, like.

C

Council, generational um on here that um are worth carrying over from council to council. I think a.

C

City-Wide neighborhood, for example, um energy advisory. You know just and I guess one could.

C

Make an argument for any of them, but sustainable practices seems like.

C

um There are some that that are overarching.

C

Things that maybe should come out of the blue ribbon category into a more.

C

Standing committee but then again.

C

um We have a lot of standing committees too, so.

C

It's a question: I have that question as well. My my sense is: if you have a blue ribbon committee,.

B

That, in effect, is operating is a standing committee, we're already staffing it in the.

B

Same way that we would a standing committee and if they're going to continue to operate that way.

B

It's not, um it doesn't matter which category they would fall into. It still takes up the same number.

B

Of staff hours is my my sense, um so um I've thought a little bit about that as a concern.

B

Not wanting to establish more committees, but if the committee is already existing.

B

Are we really establishing more committees? One of the questions I have is: what is the.

C

What are the legal requirements of a standing committee versus a blue ribbon committee.

E

So um let me hit a couple of points. My first thought is is that the blue ribbon committees.

E

Give the the existing city council, and particularly the mayor.

E

A lot of flexibility to respond and adapt and adjust without three readings of an ordinance.

E

So they have that advantage in addition, because the blue ribbon committees are not.

E

Standing committees, you can put non-portsmouth members on them. That is actually a really big.

E

Advantage, I know other people view it sometimes differently, but depending on the nature of the.

E

Expertise that you need or the demographic forget portsmouth is a sea coast leader.

E

um And- uh and you know, we have impacts far beyond our borders and and those beyond.

E

Our borders have impact, so the blue ribbon committees in particular, give.

E

The city council, the ability, as a voting you know, to put on members as voting members.

E

Now, generally, blue ribbon committees only make recommendations, so it's okay, that they.

E

Vote because really the action that might involve money so to speak, sits and policy sits ultimately.

E

In the hands of the city council, so in some ways yeah you get a vote. On the other hand, it's.

E

Only a recommendation because it's ultimately reporting to the city council, and so I think.

E

There is it's nice to have that ability and, and that's what you get with a blue ribbon committee. I.

E

I agree that sometimes it is not clear when these committees get established what the mission is or.

E

That mission evolves and doesn't get updated, and maybe the way you do that is through a.

E

City council policy, because again that's softer than an ordinance that says hey when we adopt.

E

And want to, you know, approve a mayor's. You know news blue ribbon committee or an updated.

E

Blue ribbon committee here are the things that it should address and there's almost like a checklist.

E

A clear mission, a time period, if you know, because it's only going to last until the next city.

E

Council, unless so it automatically has an end date unless it's re-adopted and who the members are.

E

And it, and you just kind of know, you checklist and who's going to chair it.

E

So you could kind of create that little checklist, just as a help. Mate really for.

E

The city council and the mayor to say have we ticked all of these boxes before we created it.

E

So those are my my couple of points they're having served on some of these.

D

uh And then, if you look at it from the other perspective, I mean all.

D

Those that's a great description of some of the advantages of the blue ribbon committees.

D

Then you look at committees that would be created by ordinance.

D

And how high the threshold would have to be for that? um I don't think you want to have you don't.

D

Want to have something created by ordinance that has a program of work with a beginning and an end.

D

You want to have a program work that never goes away and you have to. You need to keep.

D

Reappointing people to the committee over time over multiple council terms into the.

D

Future that we can't see that um that they need to keep doing whatever that program of work is.

D

It could be that we, as a council, decide as a matter of policy. We.

D

Want a permanent sustainability committee.

D

We're not going to be sustainable tomorrow. There's there's a long way to go on that.

D

um But I think that'd be a healthy discussion and it we could still conclude that.

D

It should stay a blue ribbon committee, but.

D

Long-Term uh program of work that never goes away seems to me.

D

The essential, the scenic or known of of a committee, by ordinance.

B

um I have a tendency to agree with counselor tabor on this as well. If you have a committee that has.

B

uh Ongoing program of work, that is a standing committee, whereas in in my mind a blue ribbon.

B

Committee is appointed for a particular task to achieve a particular goal or a.

B

Certain evaluation in a certain period of time, and um and so when I look at it.

B

I look at these the list of committees and the questions I have are you know the african bearing.

B

Ground stewardship blue, ribbon committee love. The african burying ground is not going away.

B

And I know that committee does not meet frequently, but maybe it should it could.

B

Be a standing committee that you know has a small, quarterly meeting, yeah quarterly or even.

B

Yearly, I think they, you know they don't meet frequently, but at least they could.

B

Because it seems like that's more permanent, um the city-wide neighborhood committee has evolved to a.

B

Point where it has kind of a permanent mission and focus, in fact my understanding is, they have.

B

Their own definitions of that um I'm working on them yeah. Yes, um the.

B

I guess the other one: the sister cities, um blue ribbon committee, sister city, blue.

B

Ribbon committee, we have sister cities um that doesn't seem to be changing either.

B

Even if it's a committee that only meets once a year or twice a year that can be defined in.

B

Ordinance as a committee that just meets once a year, you know at least once a year.

B

um And uh the sustainable practices lou ribbon committee has been meeting for years, yeah and.

B

um 15 years yeah exactly it's been that long and what's fascinating about that committee. Is that.

B

It doesn't get renewed and reappointed every two years. It's just kind of assumed it just.

B

Exists, it's the dead hand of tradition. Yes, so it just exists. It doesn't go away. Sustainable.

B

So um so uh it's uh that is, uh those are the ones that I, when I look at this list these these are.

B

The committees that don't have it to me a defined limited purpose, um but then I also um I I do think.

B

It's important to note that our ordinance says that you do have to be a resident um so that that.

B

Does impact membership? There is one way around that which we do for the edc, um where you can.

B

Define an organizational organizational membership on that committee versus an individual and if the.

B

Organization is a local organization, um so you could do that for even sustainable practices.

E

um Fertile we've talked about for african bearing ground to try and right right all the voices that.

E

We'd like to have at the table exactly exactly and if we end up with recommendations, there's a.

B

Possibility out of the cultural plan subcommittee recommend that we see a recommendation for a.

B

Permanent arts, arts, commission or arts council, if that comes forward, that would probably also be.

B

Defined by membership of entities, not necessarily individuals, it'll, probably be individuals and.

B

Membership of particular entities, so we might have to I'll, have to check the ordinance because.

E

We might have to tweak that to make it express, I'm not sure it's expressed in the ordinance.

E

um But I gotta check okay yeah, so so that's why I wanted this committee to think about this and.

B

Look at this, um I did pose this to sustainable practices and um it's interesting because people's.

B

Perceptions of what the ordinance is and what the limitations are are very different than the.

B

Reality of what the ordinance defines and the ordinance, if you go through our administrative.

B

Ordinance every committee is extremely different and some have a very thin ordinance, but they have.

B

Huge numbers of tasks others have very defined ordinance of exactly what they can and cannot do.

B

And I think there's always concern that. Oh, if we move to an ordinance, we will be limited. We.

B

Won't be able to to do things the way we've been doing them, and I don't think that that's at all.

B

A goal of making committee permanent it's to allow them to operate the way they've been operating.

B

But with more permanence, with long-term appointees, so that you don't end up with a loss of expertise.

B

On a committee, that's that has a significant task ahead: yeah, so those sound good yeah. I think.

D

Then we've also got. I don't know. Let's just consider this. For a moment we have committees like.

D

The pierce island committee- that's they themselves said we're no longer needed.

D

Right yeah, so what if that had been by ordinance? You know it was it was we got rid of it? Yeah.

D

Yeah we eliminated it. So that's something we don't do an ordinance that fast can undo an ordinance.

B

So part of the fact, so it's not forever. You know and I think that that's an important distinction.

B

Is if we hit a point where any of these are no longer useful or needed, or no longer meeting.

B

Then the ordinance can be a change just the way that rec board is going to come to us with. Maybe.

B

Recommendations that they're planning to make and in terms of pierce island committee, I think that.

C

The committee itself.

C

Defined a very narrow scope of their goals.

C

um Rather than what maybe the city wanted, I don't know that, but I I thought that that's.

C

What happened there? There were people still on the committee who called me up and said why? How.

C

Could this be disbanded? I joined this because I thought it was an important committee and.

C

But um by vote they disbanded so exactly exactly so so that's that's always a possibility for.

B

Any of these, I think so now you understand my questions around blue ribbon committees and oh.

C

Yeah and should- and I think the bigger question is: do we put in the administrative ordinance.

B

Somewhere, just a little paragraph explaining that blue ribbon committees fall outside the ordinance.

B

And this is what they're this is, what a blue ribbon committee is and how it's appointed and and.

B

Why it's appointed, essentially, to you, know, fulfill a certain task over a certain period of time? Do.

B

We put in a catchphrase so that when people are going through our administrative ordinance, they.

B

Understand that there are additional committees that lie outside the ordinance um that, without.

B

Providing you don't want to provide too much definition. You want to leave all that freedom.

B

You just want it it to be a flag so that people go. Oh, so that's what these are they're allowed.

B

um Because right now, there's actually nothing anywhere. That says that we're even allowed to.

B

Have urban committees it's just an informal yeah, some opinion from bob sullivan, probably.

E

Or his predecessors that's sitting in the legal department files somewhere. Well, it was.

E

Evelyn, marconi yeah: we couldn't really use them, yeah yeah, but I view them as expertise.

C

You know, and I think that's what.

C

We're talking about is that you want to be able to have expertise on the committee that goes beyond.

C

Just portsmouth residents, if you need to- and I think that's I think if we did if we did have.

D

Language on blue ribbon committees: it should be really short and very broad yeah. No, like.

D

The mayor can for any purpose at any time, a point of blue ribbon committee. It's advisory.

D

To the city council, okay! Well, for that matter, could a majority of the council vote to do it.

D

If you had five votes, I would think so well, I think that is our current practice. Actually.

B

Because we've had counselors bring forward blue ribbon committees. Kova task force is an.

B

Example and the council voted to establish it. Historical archives is another example.

B

um So yes, yeah yeah, it's not purely the mayor's initiative right.

B

um There's also the question around clarification of this other category. Council subcommittees.

B

um Which are also just established by motion by uh tradition of the council. We we might.

B

Want a sentence that says and the council can can create subcommittees at any time to serve. You know.

B

The needs of the council, this is these- are the committees. I would call subcommittees veterans.

B

Committee, the only reason I had a question on veterans committee is: there are only two members.

B

And one's not one's the person who founded it when he was mayor and and then one of our current.

B

Counselors land use is unusual because it includes non-council members, but it's also is really just a.

B

Subcommittee as well, I would not call it a blue ribbon committee. It's almost a task force yeah.

B

Yeah so so again we might want a a sentence as well. That says you know the council can also.

B

Have some committees, the council, um it will take this all back to the legal department and see if.

E

I can uh get some feedback for the next meeting. Of course, thank you, yeah. Does the council even.

D

Need any language to make subcommittees, I mean you do what I'm hearing from counselor cook is.

E

It would be nice if it were more transparent. The process by which these committees arrive.

E

And the rules of them and their roles um and respective responsibilities and and how they.

E

Function within government right, as opposed to it's not really authorizing something that.

E

We understand by law, given the nature of the charter and the rules of the various you know.

E

Entities within the charter, the mayor, the city council, so it's like the authority exists. What I'm.

E

Hearing is more: how do we make it more transparent for individuals and and maybe provide a little.

E

Check mark for the city council and the mayor when they're creating these is this really the right.

E

Path or would it make sense to do a different type of committee? So that's how I'm hearing that yeah.

B

That's exactly what I'm I'm suggesting is it's more providing clarification for anybody who.

B

Is looking at our committee structure so that they understand what all these different committees are.

B

um And and then um I think the follow-on is probably a conversation with the clerk's office.

B

Around you know ways that we can the clerk's office and public information around how we.

B

Can better delineate these things on our website so that it's clear to residents? What is what.

E

I agree: yeah yep.

B

Stop sharing this here.

B

And I think that that's if anyone has anything else on that.

B

um All right um is there any new business. I guess.

B

It's my we haven't had nothing's been referred to us.

D

Normally, every month we have a room, we have a lull, it's kind of nice. We.

B

Can handle the things before us, so there's no new business? Is there any public comment.

B

hmm Well, I happen to wander in welcome to please come up if you'd like, I think.

G

The holy spirit brought me in um jackie callie, pitts, portsmouth, 40, bedford way.

G

I I at the last meeting I was concerned about the recreation ordinance that was read.

G

And I called and asked if there was a new ordinance proposed or if only the first.

G

Paragraph for the ordinance was read and I didn't get an answer so I'm still pursuing that question.

G

The ordinance I have says and I've got to find out what the origin was and I've been there a.

G

Long time that no munich, anyone who serves on the recreation board, that's particular to.

G

Recreation should not hold any other municipal office. That's the ordinance as it stands now.

G

Is there a new and- and I I don't expect an answer to the question now, but is there a.

G

New answer: is there a new ordinance proposed and that doesn't mean there's not liaisons.

G

We have a school board liaison, that's how I started there and we have a legislative liaison.

G

But they would not be voting members and I I just wondered, because I did have the ordinance um and.

G

That's all if there's a new ordinance proposed. I would really like to know that that's all and.

G

I thank you very much for what you're trying to do and I think it's a monumental task. [Laughter].

G

Thank you, jackie finally made it. Thank you thank you um and, uh and I think I I was gonna normally.

B

We don't answer speakers questions, but we were discussing the rec board earlier and ordinance.

B

And we're we're we're going back to the rec board to ask if there are any recommendations.

B

um Around changes to the ordinance because we haven't seen anything yet here at governance, so.

B

Hopefully we will hear back um at our next meeting or the meeting after so um uh with that I'll close.

B

Public comment and the only announcements I have today are uh next time we plan to discuss the.

B

Donations policy again, hopefully we'll have that final donations policy and um hopefully by then.

B

We will have another report back from legal on the administrative ordinance um for our march 30 13th.

B

Meeting I will also update us on uh the further parks open space discussion and what I hear back.

B

And then, on march 27th we will start getting into conflict of interest and I should note that.

B

That is three different sections. We have three different sections around conflict of interest. I.

C

Am going to be in atlanta on the 27th okay, I will make every effort to join a zoom call there. Okay,.

B

Okay, if that is fine with you, then we won't change the meeting because we would have quorum.

B

um But let us know if we need to if we need to do anything, then: okay,.

B

um Is there are there any other announcements.

B

hmm Okay, uh can I get a motion to adjourn so moved seconds all in favor, aye aye? Thank you.