City of Portsmouth, New Hampshire Historic District Commission, 7 Dec 2022

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12.7.2022 Historic District Commission

A

Buddy welcome to the december 7th meeting the historic district commission, uh the board's.

A

Actions in these matters have been deemed to be quasi-judicial in nature. If any person.

A

Believes any member of the board has a conflict of interest. That issue should be raised at.

A

This point, or it will be deemed waived I'd like to introduce the members onto my fire.

A

Right I have joanna landis, I'm dr dan brown good evening um see we have martin and reagan.

A

Are out as martin coming martin is coming, martin is coming in. My name is john wyckoff.

A

uh Nick cracknell from planning department good evening, um rich blaylock, is not here.

A

But he is due in also margo doring good evening, mr david adam good evening and cameron farr.

B

Good evening, so we have the approval of minutes right off the bat. That's.

A

So if everyone's looked at them, if someone would like to make a motion, make a motion.

C

We approved the minutes of november 2nd and 9th and I'll second, that, okay, all those in.

A

Favor against pretty good, so uh nick has administrative approvals. We have two three and five um which.

A

We're going to give a decision on regardless of the fact that they need to go through the.

A

Board of adjustments, I can discuss that yeah, so 40 court street 11, chief street and 47.

D

Howard yeah uh may in fact need a boa relief for the setback, we're not sure on 47 howard.

D

It looks like it may not, but definitely for 40 court and 11 chief yeah. If we could could.

A

We do uh 311 chief street because uh karen buffard cannot she's abstained from this one.

A

So I think that we could do that separately, okay, alrighty, but the idea would be if we're.

D

Going to move forward with them um that they're moved forward with the condition they get.

D

That relief and deal with the screening and the conduit tonight so do you want me to go.

D

Through the we have, we have seven on the agenda. Can I start with number one or I'd like to.

A

Start start with start with 11. shave street right: okay,.

C

Which one you're, starting with, I guess, we're starting with number three number three eleven.

D

Chief street, okay, sorry it's coming well, just as a matter of explanation. We were told gosh.

A

A couple years ago that, if somebody pulled out of you, know, had to recuse themselves from.

A

One of the uh agendas than they would have to be out of all of them, but if they just.

A

We separated that one voted on it separately. Then they can indeed participate in the whole.

A

Approval process- yes, okay, so 11 chief street, they are, they are asking for really only one.

D

Item that requires administrative approval, the roofing, the siding and the the replacement.

D

Bulkhead and the chimney cap are all exempt items, so they put them all in the application.

D

To show what their intentions are in respect to re-roofing and reciting, the rear edition.

D

And replacing the bulkhead and adding a chimney cap, so they're they're, asking for a mini split.

D

Condenser um in the rear of the building, I suppose that would be facing custom house.

D

Way and what was not clear to me in the application- I don't know if anybody's here from the applicant.

D

But it wasn't clear whether there was any conduit going up the outside of the the building.

D

Nick I'm also unclear as to where the mini split is going on the back of the building.

E

There's no like this is here or there's no pencil drawing showing where it actually sits.

D

Yes, uh so is anybody here from this application? Indeed, the applicant is that silva has filled.

D

D

Well, let's continue it for a week and get those two answers. Questions answered very.

C

Good okay, yep well that'll, come back on the 14th. Are there any other recruit recusals.

D

No, so we'll 591 middle street is replacement of a wire fence with a wood, cedar fence.

D

The only stipulation I thought we might want to include was that the fence needs to be.

D

No taller than four feet within the front yard setback. Otherwise it can be this six.

D

Feet and cedar, as proposed per year approval so there's pictures in here of the wire fence.

D

In the yeah is there agreement on this stipulation? Well, that's actually the law not rather than.

C

I agree with you law yeah yeah, as long as it's clear that it's in the same style as.

E

It has been presented, yeah, okay, so why don't we add that yeah I might as well mention it.

D

Okay, so the same style as shown the application and the fence should be no taller than four.

D

Feet in the front yard setback: okay, can we go with that? Yep yep, okay, 40 court street.

D

This is an application for again, a mini split does show where it's located in the line sets.

D

That uh it's in the rear of the property, however, it would have been nice to hear it also have.

D

A tax map showing that that, in fact, is the rear. So if your preference is to also move.

D

That to next week just to confirm that's the rear of the building. Then I don't have an.

D

Issue with that, if I don't see screening yeah, there is no screen proposed for this location.

D

So the idea would be, would you like to see some correct yep? Yes, okay and I.

E

I'm not sure that there's anything different, they can do with how they're running the conduit.

D

I mean they're, probably the only thing they could do other than relocate it, but it doesn't.

D

Appear to be an easier location, it's somehow get inside. I mean this is the path of least.

D

Resistance for these installers is to put it up the outside of the house. If there was.

D

A chase inside, it's always preferred, I think, to have it inside the house and snaking up.

D

The outside, but well, as you said, if we could confirm because it looks like there are two.

E

Different locations, I've walked the building and with this in my hand- and I did not come.

F

Out believing that I understood we're going to even have a conversation as to what impact.

F

It was going to have so we're going to get a tax map from them great, okay,.

D

um 55 gate street uh 55 gates is seeking two things. I believe, and I think and whitney it's.

D

Been her project, it's been in front of us once or twice uh for approval, they're seeking.

D

Installation of again a mini split, they do have screening a fence on either side. I think.

D

The fence is five feet in height, but I'll let ann maybe clarify so that's the first.

D

Component of the request, the second is the the side yard uh wall is being proposed to.

D

Be hardy plank in my understanding is that's largely related to the building code. Fire.

D

Separation requirements, but if it's not, could you speak to that and and uh isaac looked.

D

Today and believe that this project had already received approval from the board of adjustment.

D

For these condensers, yes, we did last month or um for the condensers yeah, so we've got.

G

The zoning approval for that for the setback and then I've run into this another. You know.

G

When you're residing a building and it's uh used to, they used to just enforce it anything.

G

Less than three feet or less, but now three to five that you're needing to have um you.

G

Know some fire separation, so if they don't require it we'd rather do it in cedar, um but.

G

If it's going to be a requirement, I figured I should ask for that, while I'm here for the.

G

Other, how much of that sidewall is within it's about five feet: 14 feet of it from the.

G

Corner you know the little one-story bump out. That's the closest it's about a little.

G

Over three feet from the property line, but then from that gable, when the corner board.

G

Goes down, it's almost 14 feet in um that's still within five feet. So it's a it's a predominant.

G

Part of that elevation, it looks like the corner of the addition is some touching the property.

A

Line is that right, uh no um three feet. It's about three feet: here's the there's, the fence.

G

And I'm gonna my clients bought this property. They worked with the neighbor to get the fence.

G

Relocated to the actual property line, it was on the neighbor's property line. So that's.

G

The one it's hard to generate it's a complicated site, but I was able to relate that to that.

G

Fence line that had been reset, so I think I'm pretty accurate in terms of location. I.

G

Think the question's coming because of the tax map shows the corner on the lot line. Yeah.

G

On your next page, you know yes yeah, yes, so um the tax map's not very accurate. For this.

G

Property, it's a highly irregular. We have a design of the screening. Excuse me, the screen.

G

The screening is the there's, a current fence that runs along that backyard and it stops.

G

At the corner of the building, we're going to extend that fence and return it to the.

G

Building to hide the tube, it will be the same as that fence say exactly the same as that.

G

Effect just a little bit lower, yep, okay, thank you because and then the other thing is we.

G

Want to shift that double window a bit, so it's just not right over the heat pump. Also.

D

That's the third piece, yes, and I noted that on the yeah on the application, the shift okay.

A

Thank you uh yes, mr adam, mr chairman, thank you very much. um um I had the pleasure of.

F

In good fortune of running into anne on site, when I was doing my rounds and so we've spoken.

F

About this, but we didn't go as far I I hopefully. I was fairly good at communicating my displeasure.

F

The whole idea of of one or two sides of every building in the south end having heidi flank.

F

Put on it as an interpretive of clapboards um and ann was very careful to describe to.

F

Me that this was an issue with some sort of code having to do with some sort of one hour.

F

Fire resistant rating right, so my question: it comes to a point: um is there a kind of.

F

Substrate that would achieve that one hour, fire rating, so that I 18th century replicating.

F

Were 19th century replicating finishes could be put on top of it and still meet the one.

F

Hour, we'd have to completely take all the sheathing off. Why completely it? uh No we're.

F

Getting into the weeds- and that wasn't the point of this- but it said completely- take.

F

The sheathing off, couldn't you just cover it, you could cover it, but then it changes.

G

All the wall depths and things uh I don't okay, but if given the option of changing someone's.

F

Wall depth by a half of an inch and having half of the house sided with cementitious.

F

Citing I'd go for the half inch, don't you think? Well, I guess uh it's a matter of costs.

G

And also when you look at this building the only place, you can really see that elevation.

G

Is I do understand that there's a circumstance here that this is a probably the least visible.

F

The least visible portion of this building- indeed, but it's still in the purview and and.

F

I'm concerned about where this is all going, not just the building that we have before.

F

Us, but throwing my net a little bit further and thinking I've got another problem. I guess.

G

If it's a deal, breaker we'd probably have to do it because we need to reside. But you.

D

Could still do it, I mean it'd, be den class right, the dens glass and then you, you know.

G

You put things in the wall and have 5 8 sheetrock. On the you know, rated sheetrock on the interior.

G

So the dense glass isn't enough. No that's part of the assembly. It's the exterior part.

G

Of the fire rated assembly, but the cementitious hardy board is enough by itself enough by.

G

Itself to be that outside um barrier, if I could just uh also, I think you, I think you.

H

Have to use the hardy because it's not flammable you put wood on top of a one hour, rated wall.

H

You still have a flammable surface and I think that's the problem. It meets the code, it meets.

G

The code, the dense glass, is not a flammable surface, underneath it you'd have to burn through.

G

The clapboard and once you get to the dense glass behind that and then the 5 8, it goes.

G

From both directions from inside out and outside to end, to david's point I mean I think I personally.

D

Think it's a good point. This is kind of like chimneys uh once they're gone, they're gone.

D

And the slippery slope is just like everything else: that's a slippery slope. If the house.

G

Becomes three-sided uh wood, one-sided, hearty or two-sided hearty because it's a corner.

D

Lot or too close to two of butters what what really prevents the subsequent uh application.

D

From being, I want to make it all the same and we lose all the wood eventually, because.

D

It's it's being pushed in that direction. I mean, I always thought the problem with the.

D

Dens glass, if there was one beyond maybe being more complicated, a solution was sometimes.

D

It makes a mess of the trim boards and things because the wall is getting thicker, but.

D

It doesn't sound like that's the case here with this style of of house.

A

Is it um you said it's not 100 sure that the fire department is using three feet instead.

A

Of five feet well, the last project I was on they were, you know, pressed it at five feet.

I

And in the in in past projects, so I I have an info, the stipulation that it um it would.

A

Be five feet unless it was required by the fire department right, correct and could the.

A

um Could the hardy plank be put four inches on center? Yes, you can get hardy. That will.

A

Work at four inches right: the exposure before four inches to weather, yeah yeah. Yes, you can.

G

Get that that's what I meant: yeah yeah! Yes, the smooth side out yep, if you, but if it comes.

A

To him push comes, and it's just um it's not it's really not even the entire rear, because.

G

Once you get back to the original house and the bay, that's far enough back, you can see.

G

On the the way the lot plan goes, so it's really that one gable and one face of the one story.

A

I mean it sounds like a small thing to just take the clapboards off and and put this 5.

A

8 material is that what it is 5 8 or is it three quarter or what it's I think it's half.

G

Inch actually half inch, but um then there again all the window trims are replacing the.

G

Windows somehow so it's more in the corner boards and the we're not replacing all the.

G

Trim on the building, um the freeze and the corner boards, you know that might have some.

G

Implication there, okay, so it seems like there's three three options for you guys to consider.

A

Right one is you, you deny that component with a request to the building department that.

D

They waive because it's a historic structure, the replacement of the siding from from the.

D

Application that it stay wood, because that's certainly a possibility that the code has.

D

Exemptions there they're always looking to make it as safe and as best as possible. So.

D

If you're looking at it through that lens, rather than a preservation, lens you're, going.

D

To recommend that it be hardy black, I mean I work with these folks in the inspection.

D

Department, that's what they do in the fire department. So you you could for now deny it.

D

And suggest they issue a waiver, it's their call, not ours. Yeah. You take that that piece.

D

Would not move forward, uh unlike the condensers or you you say, plan b is the dense glass and.

D

It'll be replaced with cedar or plan c, is to give them what they're asking for you've.

D

Got a those are your choices.

A

I thought my stipulation idea was pretty good, but otherwise we have to pull this out, pull.

A

It out we got to pull it out and disapprove it well, that's what you're saying you would.

D

Be bifurcating the application and approving the mechanicals and not and stipulating that.

D

You're not approving or you are depending on which of those you choose what to do with.

D

The siding but you're not pulling it out. You need to vote for that. I understand yeah and.

H

I just had that you cannot put a combustible surface, even if you rate the wall and you.

H

Put duns class as associating and get a rated wall. I do not believe that you can put a combustible.

H

Material on the outer side of that, because it'll just cause the flame from the next house.

H

To spread yeah, I think it's been done, including the salvation army did it. Okay, I just don't.

H

Think that um I think we should assume it can be done, and the problem is the inspection department.

D

If they have a different opinion.

A

Okay, so let's pull this out and bifurcated, as you said, or or choose to allow it to go.

D

Forward as presented, you have to decide what you want to do as a group david. Can you excuse.

A

This considering um how not visible that this wall is and and with the idea that you're.

F

We I just believe that I've just come to the realization that this has happened. I think.

F

We need to nip it in the bud yeah. We need to find some accommodation between the the.

F

Code, which I I will go on record, saying I'm all four codes um and but there's a hard spot.

F

That is run into if there was a possible work around I'd like to see us move to it sooner.

F

Than later, that's my opinion. You asked my opinion, sir yeah I did. I agree because there's.

C

So many houses in the south end that are less than three feet: they're five now yeah five.

C

Feet whatever the rules were, okay, so uh looks like we are going to postpone this or continue.

A

It um number 547 howard street, so um I guess we need a vote on this. Does it help you to.

D

Have a vote on approval for the condensers tonight or have so I think you should do that.

D

And and maybe in the next week we could figure out with the inspection department and do.

A

Some homework okay, so they make a motion so to pull this out and then we'll have to have.

F

A motion to vote on miss chairman I'd like to make a motion that we separate the uh mechanical.

F

Portion of this application and postpone the rest and hear the mechanicals only this evening.

H

Second, that all right, all those in favor aye against all right that work thanks sam and.

D

And I have those brackets the hinges: they're all upstairs. Okay, perfect, okay, be sure that.

E

The window is also the windows. Look, let's do that next week, the windows. Well, what did.

D

He just take out only the siding yeah. Then the windows are in yeah yeah um 47. Are we.

D

On 47 hours, if we are yes, yes, okay, 47 howard is once again mechanical equipment. They put.

D

It in the rear yard, but there is no screening proposed and I don't think you'd want the.

D

Conduit to be painted white, which is how it comes, so that's a factory finishes. This is.

B

Yeah, so this is another question of whether, if we're going to want everything screened.

D

Regardless of locations- and this needs to come back next week and there's there's an.

E

Awful lot of spaghetti of conduit on this pool house, it's running two units I think.

A

Yeah, it must be, but do you have a preference in how to get to the second floor, move it.

E

Inside well yeah same same as always right yeah, I mean I think that I understand that.

E

It's easiest to to place it outside and I'm sympathetic with that. But in a situation where.

E

You can't run it discreetly up the side of the building. I think we should push back a.

E

Little bit and ask people to re-look at the interior possibilities if it if they can do.

E

It and it just runs right up a corner board and it can be hidden as if it's a gutter and.

E

They want to run it on the outside yeah, I'm less worried about that, but where you literally.

E

Have these things sort of running rights and lefts, and we don't really know if they've.

E

Taken a serious look at moving it inside. I think we should ask.

D

Okay, so why don't we continue that we'll have them here next meeting anybody object to that.

D

Same goes with the screen right, yes,.

D

Speaking of screens, I think the next one is seven hancock, yes, which was a stipulation.

D

To return with a screen design which they've done.

D

And they show it uh in their application, everybody saw it. Yes, I think it looks great. It's a very.

A

Nice screen design for me, I think they should get a gold star because they're putting it.

C

Inside the house and there's no running up and down the walls, yes also, this is what you.

C

Would hope this is the ideal standard yeah yes, next year, we'll come up with the gold.

A

D

No issues with that last 140 pleasant street. This is what we looked at in a site visit.

D

A couple of months ago, as part of a larger application, that included a variety of components.

D

What got left here was the uh the wall lighting and on the exterior, and they did a mock-up.

D

Of some of the up lighting over the the thai restaurant on the side of the building, which.

D

Looked pretty good but it was an incomplete visualization of of what they're proposing.

D

They weren't able to do a full mock-up of all the lighting, given the logistics involved.

D

So they they did some photo simulations which they've included in the packet uh representing.

D

What this is going to look like on this building and they made clear in both the application.

D

And a conversation I had with the representative that this lighting is fully uh regulated.

D

So the brightness of the lighting can be adjusted if, if it's found to be too bright, which was.

D

A concern of one of the butters on porter street when we had that hearing. I think the.

A

Color of the warmth of the lighting can be. I can change the colors of that yeah. It's.

D

H

So is it dark sky approved.

D

I I honestly couldn't tell you um supposed to be.

D

So you don't even have to stipulate that it's supposed to be. So that's a that's a requirement.

D

I'm not sure how well accent lighting does with those regulations. So it's pointed against.

A

The building there we go yeah yeah it shoots below the building; okay, that's it! Well! That's.

C

It yeah I'm gonna, run down that. Okay, we did the fence uh well, the fence with had no stipulations.

D

40 court street is coming back in a week chief street's, coming back in a week, appraiser group.

D

um 55 gates we'll find out what happens with the siding in a week and 47 howard will come.

D

Back and then so, seven hancock and 40 pleasant were to be okay, so 167.. I do have a question.

E

About 40 pleasant, and that is who regulates if they turn these things on and and it's.

E

Really bright who's to say it's too bright or not bright, there are, there are lighting.

D

Standards in the zoning ordinance that are enforceable, so it would be in the zoning order.

E

Yeah, if we get a complaint, we'll have to go out and test it and see if it complies it.

D

Doesn't they'll have to correct it? Okay,.

A

One six and seven: we have a motion. I have a motion to approve with any stipulations.

E

That nick has indicated.

C

Second, all those in favor aye.

F

Opposed opposed, yes, sir I'd like to vote opposed, I'm shocked at the uh at the impact of the.

F

Scheme on the old customs house- okay, okay and I have to vote uh abstain on the same.

H

One I wasn't, I was late for one. So, oh, I didn't really.

A

Still good yeah, you should announce here, john. If, unless you want me to, we got a lot of continuances.

D

I've written the dates down, I don't know if isaac gave you those. No all I've got is.

D

So 43 homes- and I just quickly right yeah, of course, so 43 homes is being uh there's.

D

A request to continue that to january 3 walton is also january 33, uh south mill pond. That's.

D

Being requested to be withdrawn and when I have to recuse is withdrawing okay, I didn't.

D

Know if I had to but I'm a butter he's looking at alternative, goaler good good. I cooked him.

D

He's not running away um 93 pleasant street for the uh treadwell building, that's being.

D

Continued, the request is to continue that to next week and just so everybody knows we.

D

Got a new set of plans friday. I have not gone through those, but I've been assured that.

D

The wall, disassembly storage and reconstruction component has been removed from that application.

D

So they're going back to the original approval of shoring up the wall, doing the work behind.

D

It, I believe, that's the case. I have not put eyes on the application, but that's one of.

D

The reasons they requested the continuance they will still be coming in for the elevator.

D

Override being a little taller, some of the siding change, there were other, probably much.

D

More minor changes, yes david. Could I make a request of of them to provide a some sort.

F

Of graphic representation of what the elevator override looks like from across the street,.

F

On pleasant, uh because when you, when you scale it on the drawing you scale it in accordance.

F

With the roof of the treadwell house, but when you stand across the street unpleasant and.

F

Look up it's not in line with uh over the. What do you, where are you on across the street,.

D

Because the obviously the treadwell's a big building unpleasant so right but there's the.

F

Roof line is divided into two parts and and I'm concerned of what you're going to how.

F

Much of that elevator override is going to be visible from pleasant, so sort of the floros.

D

uh Yes, yes, the floral corner, yeah, okay! Thank you, sir yep. That's colorful what we're calling.

A

That, okay, okay, so 93 pleasant, will be here next week. I think without the wall component.

D

um So that leaves us with 15 mile burning tonight and one reigns and 95 daniel is being.

D

uh Is requesting a continuance to february they're the ones that okay, so uh we need a.

A

Motion to um continue 43 homes, court, which is public hearing a and three walton alley.

A

Which is b um till next month to january january yeah you need that motion so move the prejudice.

F

Seconded all those in favor all right opposed okay, so we need also a motion um to with oh.

A

We need a motion to withdraw yeah they've already done it well, I think you should okay.

A

How about a motion to withdraw 33 south street, which is number c uh letter c, so moved well.

A

Second, all those in favor bye, abstain, okay, abstain. um So then we have a request to postpone.

A

Till next week and that um 93 pleasant street, could I have a motion please so moved second.

A

All those in favor aye, again, okay and then you might as well do 95 daniel. The last item.

D

On the agenda, that's february, oh so we have a request to postpone and work sessions old.

A

Business, it's 95 daniel street um to february. Did you say to february so moved? Second, all.

A

Those in favor all right against all right, so we're at just 15 right down foreign. Mr.

J

Chairman, um I'm recused from e and f demolished. um Okay well have a good evening. No they're coming.

C

Back down, that's it! It was tonight wow, we're gonna, have a party for you.

C

Let the fun begin no either come back. Is she having a party.

K

uh I don't know okay, okay, um so we have a petition of robin and cyrus noble owners for.

A

Property located at 15 mount vernon street wherein permission is requested to allow new.

A

Construction to an existing structure extend the roofline of the existing house over the.

A

Attached garage as per plans on file in the planning department, said, property is shown.

A

On a sessa map 111 as lot 33 and lies within general, residence b and historic districts,.

A

So, who is here to present this, I'm cyrus noble, welcome.

K

So this is a plan that was approved prior, but because of supply chain and inability.

K

To get anything done, we weren't able to move forward on the project in the time that we.

K

Were allowed with the approval so we're asking to try again no changes, you did say no changes.

A

Right well, given joanna is new, could you just give us a quick thumbnail of what what you're.

D

Proposing here um in the lower right corner, uh there is a bastardized garage. This was.

K

Originally, a barn actually a garage, and that was a sliding barn door and the basically.

K

The plan is to put a master bedroom suite over that garage space.

D

This here so on the back you're also continuing a dormer. Is that right here, yes, yep, sir, is.

A

There anything else see a door.

K

On the back yeah, uh yes, the new door, that would be a new door into the backyard so extending.

D

The the dormer on the second floor, a new door, a dormer on the front and obviously the half.

D

Story over the garage right.

H

This was originally submitted by the schultzes who owned the house. We purchased it from them.

K

It was approved for them, and then we asked for an extension and couldn't get the work.

K

Done and now we're back.

A

Questions and comments on this anybody.

A

I throw a comment out of this thing. That's going to happen. That's proposed to happen.

F

Will be a unique house in the south end? I believe, certainly on this street um and.

F

A house with uh with a continuous roof line and the front door of the house and the garage.

F

Door appearing in the same plane- I I just I I it's not like I'm not sensitive to what's.

F

Going on or can't picture the issue, but uh it's it's not how this is traditionally done.

F

And so this is as a workaround I just I can't help you, I find it awkward. I find it awkward.

F

I I hope mine isn't the uh deciding vote.

A

Is there any other awkwardness felt in by this border.

C

Did a job of a better job of balancing the house out? I thought it was awkward. The way.

C

It was with that garage, old barn and then just emptying in the back. um So I thought.

F

The design has a little more.

C

Symmetry I agree. Martin, I don't have much yeah, it's it's an awkward house and and.

H

It's gonna be an awkward house when it's done too, so I I don't.

H

It's been approved before and I feel like it would be inappropriate to not uh allow.

H

It to to continue forward, I agree with the the fact that we're looking at difficulties.

H

In the supply chain and and that shouldn't.

H

No one should be punished for that.

F

It's been three years so as far as the breathlessness that you're feeling here, sir understood.

F

We've only owned the house two years. Well, I do understand your picture, but ours is a.

F

Little bit different.

D

You have to come to the mic you're going to speak yeah. We want to record your opinion.

F

About your house, this is an ugly house, you walk down the street. You talk about awkward.

K

It is awkward and I would suggest that this is less awkward yeah. I I certainly appreciate.

F

Your opinion I get to sit here and have mine right and that's so you've heard mine now.

F

We've heard yours margo, you haven't given us an opportunity. Well, I have a question for.

E

David, which is what would you suggest, I mean, I don't think that there's that cheap way.

F

Out I'd love to think that I had one but but the slightly detached garage or the breezeway.

F

Is the standard right, lingua franca of capes in new england? I don't think just portsmouth.

F

So the idea of this engaged garage it makes for a thing that looks you know comfortable.

F

uh You know the back row is a dover or something yeah. You've got to move the foundation too.

F

No, no, I didn't say no, I'm saying that yeah that that's that's what's got it. This is what.

F

The sensitivity of the issue is, I, I think it's clear, but I I know what I would do. Okay.

D

Yeah, I know what I'm stepping it back. There's six different things, but but none of them.

F

Have to do with continuing a flush surface and then glorifying it with a dormer.

F

Anyway, I would agree that it's awkward but uh may may I just ask a few questions in trying.

E

To find a cheaper aesthetic um solution, if the siding were on the garage, for example,.

E

Were something different like shingle? Would that provide a visual separation for you that.

E

Might be easy for the homeowner to achieve.

F

Sure it's a small hoop, but but yes, yes, it would separating the two from each other. Would.

F

Do a bit to uh make it look less purposely cobbled, and I see that right in front of the.

E

Garage, it's basically just pavement and there's a small planter area and what I would suggest.

E

Is that the homeowner may be able to do something in that space between the corner of the garage.

E

And the corner and the door in the way of either plantings or stone, or something and.

E

With those two ideas combined, we might end up with something that gives a slight visual.

E

Differentiation between the main house and the garage without causing any major structural.

E

Construction, increased expenses and so on, yeah.

L

Getting some nods over here yeah, I may speak. I I feel like it's going to be doubly penalized.

J

Because of the loss of time, which, through no fault of his own and the fact that he bought.

J

A house that's kind of awkward, I don't and he wants to make it look better. I don't think.

J

It's his responsibility and I'm a purist, but I don't think that it should be his responsibility.

J

To make it more historically accurate, his responsibility is to make it more aesthetically.

J

Pleasing and not have to you know, break the bank.

A

um What would what do you feel about the change of siding at that? um I think that would be.

J

A great economical way to do it yeah we're getting some enough nods here, where I think we could make that a stipulation.

A

You understand exactly uh what we're referring to instead of cloudboarding, that thing you're.

K

Suggestions, you have to come back you're going to have to come back up, so he was suggesting.

K

That cedar shake on the garage portion. Yes,.

K

Doesn't matter to me painted painted the same color and just provides a textural difference.

E

Yeah could leave it natural, okay, it's adult building interesting, so is the purview of.

E

The owner yeah, um would anybody in the public like to speak about this proposal.

A

Future huda, 280 south street I received in a butter notice. um The abutted notice said.

I

They were extending the roof. um I guess my question here to you as a board is: um do you.

I

Really think this is consistent with the area over there and the historic district, um especially.

I

The dormer just kind of sticking out there and um I I guess I would ask if this already.

I

Went through the boa for any type of variances or anything or anything is needed in that.

I

Area because it's a really tight squeeze yeah, it would have gone through originally if it.

D

Needed to, I don't know, does the applicant, do you know if it went to the boa or needed.

D

To yes, yes, it did and are those permits still valid? Yes, yes, [music] go ahead, so that would.

I

Be um I guess that would be my other question. um I guess the big thing is it's. uh It's really.

I

Not consistent with the uh the neighborhood area there and that's what all I have to say.

I

Thank you. Thank you. Anybody else.

A

Alrighty, so I'm going to close this public hearing um look for a motion with stipulation.

A

H

I'll make a motion to uh approve the application as presented. um I don't feel strongly about.

H

Their stipulation, but I will, for the sake of harmony.

H

Would be willing to add that stipulation.

H

Anyone second anybody, yes, is deciding that the uh shakes on the stipulation right, I guess.

H

It is, I guess it is yeah. uh Can you find some findings of fact or anything that could help.

A

Us out on that, yes, I can. I it is consistent with. I believe it is consistent because it.

H

It is there it, uh you know it. It wasn't consistent with the the district in the first place, but.

H

It is part of the fabric that is there um and it preserves the um the integrity of the.

H

District, so are those cedar shakes to be used on all three sides of the garage any exterior.

D

Wall, no I'm asking because I think to be consistent. Yes to be yes,.

A

Okay, that's it, then, all those in favor, sorry what happens on the dormer on the rear. Oh.

D

Well, that's good! That's going to remain the way, the doors exactly just making sure okay.

D

Sorry, no that's good yep! All right! All those in favor say aye aye against all right. So.

A

You have your approval with the stipulation.

D

Thank you good night. So now we are moving on to a work session where we're going to.

A

Go down to the table requested by one reigns avenue: llc 31 rains avenue, llc, 203, maplewood.

A

Avenue llc owners property located at one rands avenue, 31 rains avenue 203 maplewood.

A

Avenue wherein permission is requested to allow the construction of a five-story mixed-use.

A

Building in a five-story hotel, as per plans on file in the planning department, said properties.

A

Are shown on a system map 123 lot 14 map 123 lot 13 and map 123 lot 12 and lie within character.

A

District 4 and the historic district.

A

A

It's a polarization of permeability of paid users.

F

I know that knows anything really about it. Do you mind is I have a broad pet problem.

M

Definitely not yours.

A

Okay, well just give yourself an introduction again, yes, uh good evening, carla goodnight.

N

From cj architects, here with evan tormy of xss good evening, foreign.

N

So uh we're back to concentrate mostly primarily on the design for the mixed use, uh building.

N

And we've created a comprehensive summary of all of our notes and thoughts on the hotel.

N

Building from our last meeting on this, the the mixed use piece, we we um really took a.

N

Holistic, look at the at the building and uh divide it up into two teams and uh created.

N

Two separate options with uh a little bit of a shift on in each of them, so that uh you.

N

Know we had, we had been at tasked with taking a harder look at that, especially at the flagship.

N

Piece on maplewood, so um taking you right into the presentation on 1.0 just this is.

N

Where we left off last time, so this is just to give you uh some context of where we started.

N

um And uh you know the prior design of in the prior design. Both pieces were very similar.

N

uh And the cornices were, you know, lacked drama and so forth uh 1.2. um Similarly, you know.

N

We had some organizational issues in the facade on rains. We had started a transition element.

N

Between the two masses, which I think conceptually was working but needed a little bit more development.

N

um On 1.2 1.3, I we did like the breaking of the corner and in this these new versions.

N

We had taken that in carried it through the other balcony locations and uh 1.4. We introduced.

N

A closer view um there was some some difficulty perceiving this view in the last presentation.

N

So we pulled that in, [music] um and so that brings me to our updated option a um so in.

N

Option a you can see that we've included a new projecting cornice with more clean, modern.

N

Lines and varied the window pattern significantly and went with a lighter brick color, which.

N

Is appearing slightly more lemony than I would really like it to be appearing right now, so.

N

It just keep that in mind the new glass canopy on maplewood with that sort of jackknife design.

N

That we had talked about and we retained the large glass canopy on brain tab. We also began.

N

To project the balconies 18 inches and accentuated, the I-beam forms and kind of capped that top.

N

Balcony with an I-beam breaking the cornice at each balcony location and then we organize.

N

The window patterns to be a little bit more uniform and cohesive and then introduced a.

N

Divided light pattern in the double hung, windows and brick. Piers have been added to all elevations.

N

Facing the north mill pond, which I think really sort of unifies the the forms back there and.

N

Then we also revise the upper upper penthouse, siding to be more of a of an earth tone, so.

N

If you look on 1.1 a that really showcases the um you know, it's a much more modern, modern.

N

Departure and it really showcases our jackknife canopy in that area, and you can start to see.

N

The piers on the back building, as well as the increased cornice and details details.

N

There, I think, last time we this view was not represented in our renderings. It was asked.

M

That you know this being a very important view coming into town on maplewood, so we've.

B

Included it for each option, this view so good, yep, um so 1.2 again this one really showcases.

N

uh The divided balcony areas and the uh sort of much more ordered uh sections of the building.

N

On reigns and then you can get a really nice impression of how that courtyard works with.

N

The with the different significantly different building type on the corner of marines at.

N

Maplewood 1.3, looking back from 3s past the hotel and 1.4 a close-up view again really.

N

Showcasing those pilots, those those piers applied to the facade, both along the back.

N

Of the facing the water side on the four-story elevation, as well as the three-story elevation.

N

um So I'm not, I don't know if you want to go through all four, but why don't we do them.

N

In pairs, when I do them in pairs.

B

A and b- and then you just don't want to get too far ahead. Okay, so option b is a variation.

N

On a with a more dramatic corner element with a rounded balcony um and uh rounded um trellis,.

N

Form much of the rest of the building is the same. So if you go to 1.1, um you really get.

N

An eye you can really see how that corner has been eroded and we experimented with eroded.

N

Corners um to soften that turn around when you're coming in and then 1.2 gives you a.

N

Different perspective on it, you know really sort of changing the rectangular. You know.

N

Bookends around the entrance on 1.2 b.

N

And then 1.3 is essentially the same as the option, a because it's not that corner isn't.

N

Visible on 1.4 b, you start to get just a little peak of it at the right and then we move on.

N

To the next next sort of whole scheme, so do we want to discuss this one and we've got.

N

Some changes, yes, you know yeah some changes. All four options are the same. No, this the.

N

Next set is a different, completely different language style style, yeah. Yes, so the first.

N

Two sort of are: why does it make sense to talk about the first two, if the second two.

D

Haven't been presented, I mean I want to see all four of myself. Okay, then you've got something.

D

To weigh it against otherwise you're.

O

For sure, sometimes you want to plow all the way through other times. Okay, all right so.

N

um Option c option c is um taking a different look at uh reworking that inner uh transition.

N

Piece, the inner circle with a radius on that inside corner. So we introduced a round tower.

N

Transition element between the three and four-story buildings instead of and return reconstructed.

N

That outside corner that was there before um we included the projecting cornice with.

N

Corbels on the three-story building forms and we added a strong metal entrance composition.

N

Inspired by the hotel with the glass canopy at maplewood, so it's proud instead of recessed.

N

We simplified the storefront glazing in that area and we this one also has projecting balconies.

N

With I-beam forms and organized window patterns and the divided light, and we also added the.

N

Brick piers on the back and revised the siding tone, but on this one the rains have entrance.

N

Carries that same vertical form with the banding that is carried, those that same banding is.

N

Also carried through the the round top horribles- I I just don't see them well here- go on 1.1.

N

C, you can see they're up- uh oh yeah, 1.1 c, um so these buildings are not as separated.

N

But they're, just more highly detailed and more uh sort of the the form itself has been.

N

Modified in these options to have the circular corner forms that really soften those uh building.

N

uh Masses on the streetscape, so you can see here the simplified storefront 1.2 shows the.

N

Radial corner again with the projected balconies and then the entrance, the residential entrance.

N

Is also proud the same as the balcony, so that I-beam form carries across and also wraps.

N

Into the circular form and then repeats again on the maplewood side and which one is residential.

A

And which one of it is a storefront, the residential is the one on reigns, and then I see that yes,.

A

But there's two stores: two two um balconies there I mean two canopies canopies and one.

A

Of them is much heavier extending up to the fourth floor. What's that that one is the residential.

A

That's the residence. Yes, yes and are those balconies? Are they accessible from a hallway.

A

Is that how it works or an elevator shaft? No, so there's a balcony associated with each.

M

Unit basically, the way this is okay, configured, so you're, just making them look like they're.

A

Part of the central.

B

So, first floor you have residential lobby, there, that's your entrance and then we're.

M

Sort of emphasizing that entrance with bringing the additional detailing up along the balconies.

M

Versus the more uh sort of subdued balconies elsewhere on the building, and that's just.

A

Metal does that matter. Yes,.

N

uh 1.3 um again, just depicts the projecting balconies in the I-beam accents uh 1.4. It.

N

Indicates that we have reworked the entrance from the water side to be coordinated with.

N

The other entries the same style and so option d is a variation on c, which introduces two.

N

uh Round forms one on the inside corner, one on an outside corner, um and then I think you.

N

Know you can see the balcony uh to the left and the added entry area to the right, so the.

N

Main difference between this one and uh the the first one is that you know it has introduced.

N

This outside corner kind of along the same theme as the previous looking at 1.1 d, again.

N

uh Really gives you an idea of that second sort of eroded corner form, 1.2 d: you can see.

N

The two forms together um be inside the outside corner. All other aspects are remain the same and then uh 1.3.

N

Again, just the more organized window patterns and storefronts uh kind of more harmonious.

N

There and 1.4 da proposes again that we will retain that same sort of I-beam banding with.

N

The vertical window slots and an accent band that carries through the window, glass and.

N

Onto the siding itself, um and then 2.0 takes us to the hotel.

N

Okay, well, four different views: basic styles, with a variation with variations, so I'll start.

A

Discussing well I'd be happy.

K

um I think the elements we asked for at least I asked for I'm saying here: okay, I'm very.

H

Happy with it, um I you know, I think, option a and option d are very appealing. I think.

H

Option b is a little too alien for leave it. At that. um What I do like about option, a I think is, gives you that signature building.

H

On right there, where everyone's looking for sort of an entrance piece and- and I think.

H

You pull that off. I I like the fact that the cornices are very expressive. I I also like.

H

The fact that you sort of changed the the approach towards the way, the building steps.

H

Up and it's maybe it's just color, but I think the cornices are a lot more appealing and.

H

The whole the whole thing has come together a whole lot better than it was before. I like.

H

The fact that there's more transparency and optional a and- and uh I what I do find appealing.

H

uh About option d, I think, is how you handled the glue that, or the little hinge points where.

H

The where that that front piece off a maplewood meets the piece on range. I think those are.

H

Much better than all the other options, I think you handle it much better in d than you do.

H

In and the others, so if you could, you could convince me that a and d are are the way to.

H

Go and and they're in terms of massing, I think some of the things that you've done with the.

H

With the horizontals and the cornice, and everything really give this building a more of a horizontal.

H

Feel- and I think you know, I wasn't bothered by the mass thing in the first place, but you.

H

Even improved upon it as far as I'm concerned, so a and a with a little bit of d involved.

H

With speak now,.

A

I really like because you're you know you've taken it in.

J

A completely different direction so that it doesn't feel boxy and, like uh you know,.

J

Suburb of boston- or these are going up everywhere- it's it's inviting, but you've broken up the.

J

Colors I mean maybe it's too lemony, then what it's really could be, but I love how it's it.

J

Feels more like a village now to me.

J

um I I can't believe I'm saying it, but I I really do love this image.

J

I've kind of uh was surprised by that as a little sense of uh uh post-war japanese fenestration.

F

On the little park is presented to the um the maplewood um an option b. Yes, um I something.

F

Something seems to happen to the up the up, the street.

F

Corner uh in option b, it gets fuzzy with the balcony. I I I, the balcony doesn't move me.

F

uh It's so I I guess uh is that um I I was also a not thinking that this was going to.

F

Be the day we decided on something, but to have a conversation about it. um I, as as possibly.

F

Trite, as it is the little rounded corners that was uh uh well, this is a demarcation.

F

From the rest of the things that you hold near and dear dave uh and and it sort of had.

F

A little exciting twang to it, you know, like I, don't know, not going to say any of the other.

F

Things I'm thinking, um but uh so I guess I'm a option: a and option d sort of guy um I've.

F

Liked elements of both of those, but we're really just talking about the piece on maplewood.

F

Which granted is a huge piece of this thing that probably weighs 50 percent of the problem.

F

If not more, um and and so it's it's it's a reason, I think why you are putting that as.

F

Your first image in the presentation uh still a you know, I'm gonna go with. I don't know.

F

Much about this, just the idea that uh making it look less boring uh and massive for the.

F

Rest of it is good.

J

I think I think that you've done that pretty much in all of them and I there's something.

J

About that image to me, that's just it's actually inviting to me and you know, we've come so.

J

Far down this path at this point, I'm jumping in you know way late in the game, but you know.

J

We're down the path where we're not going to create a you know, a replica of some of.

J

The mills that were torn down you know we've gone in a complete, completely opposite direction.

J

So we might as well go all the way.

C

E

So from an aesthetic point of view, I would agree with martin in terms of preferences.

E

Okay, um well, I find b to be interesting. uh I think that it's, it doesn't work with the.

E

Rest of the building, as well as I would like um I've. Never. I have not been a fan of the.

E

Very busy storefront that you have below that, which is probably one of the reasons that.

E

I find d appealing is, I think you simplified that? Yes, yes, yes, I did. um I do like the idea.

E

Of the rounding and softening the entrance coming over over maplewood, um some of the.

E

Heavy projecting cornices that you have in a um I see where you're going and if this.

E

Building were if this part of the building were by itself. I would probably be all for.

E

It because I think it's very dramatic, but it doesn't seem to relate um and sit well.

E

With the rest of the building, um so having said those things, um you know how I feel about.

E

The mass of the building um sitting as close to the mill pond as it does, um and yet I haven't.

E

Given you a solution to to the problem, and I'm not sure that I have one, but I am going.

E

To put forward some possibilities, if you could find a way to take a design such as d and.

E

E

Some of the mass on the third floor so that we get more of this step back.

E

That would help me, I'm not sure it's going to get me there the whole way, because I don't.

E

Know how you're going to do it and how much you could do, but I I've we've heard a lot.

E

From the public about the this wall that this presents along that side of the mill pond.

E

And I know because I'm a tree person that in 40 to 50 years you could have mature trees.

E

In front of this building and the building will not stand out nearly the way it does.

E

Today, but that's several decades of people who need to look at this building before those.

E

Trees mask it, and so I continue to be concerned with that big face. That's going to be viewed.

E

Across the mill pond for decades decades to come, um you've you've attempted to reduce.

E

That, by having the step back on the upper stories, um but they're not step back enough.

E

To make the building appear to be only a three-story building um and it doesn't step back at the.

E

Third story: it steps back at the fourth and fifth and I'm sorry, I'm counting the garage.

E

Down below right right, of course, I just wanted to just we did actually and we've been talking.

N

So much about design that we haven't sort of revisited this, but we have an actual penthouse.

N

Up there, that is, this is three uh four stories with a penthouse, so I and I understand that.

E

There is a technical difference when it comes to things like the planning board and so on.

B

And so forth, but I'm just looking at the aesthetic, and that is what I'm tasked with um and I'm.

E

Gonna bring up a concern that was brought up early, but it has in the in the chaff of.

E

Everything else has, I think, been overlooked is how this mill pond view is the backside.

E

Of this building and it's a lot of garage at the single story level now happily the.

E

Trees will cover that view first before they cover the other stories, um but I am a little.

E

Bit concerned that again, the view from the mill pond is the back side of the house or.

E

The back side of a building um and- and I I feel for the people who are going to be looking.

E

At that I don't, unfortunately I don't have a solution for you. I don't have a suggestion.

E

At all, to help with that, because, generally speaking, you usually have a front and a back.

E

um But I think that for the sensitivity of the people who are going to be looking at.

E

That we should, we should mention it at least yeah and and there I just it, doesn't show.

M

Up great in these renderings, but there is a berm, that's been created between the pathways.

M

You have the pond and then originally the pathway was pretty close to the pond. The conservation.

M

Commission the planning board asked us to move that out of the 25 foot and so that got.

M

Closer to the building and then between that path and the building there's a substantial.

M

Amount of vegetation in the plans- and then there is this sort of three or four foot high.

M

Berm, on top of which there is vegetation. So if you're, on standing on the pathway, you're.

M

Not seeing into this garage area and if you're across the mill pond in somebody's house same.

M

You're, you know that's eight feet above the finish floor. Elevation of this building and.

M

Then we also did introduce this some screening in a couple of areas in response to that same.

M

Concern we did have an exhibit in the earlier um submissions that if you go back and look.

N

It's in there and we have all the firms sort of outlined in red yeah. We still do have 4.0.

M

In here, which does show the setbacks, so the 25, the 50 foot and 100 foot setback and we.

M

We made a conscious effort as a development team to stay out of the 100 foot setback on.

M

This project, and so, if you you, can see it here, there is one small area and dave you'll.

M

Be able to see it because you're right here, where new test it's right there on the maplewood.

M

Frontage, uh that is the only area where there is any building within the 100 flood plan.

M

That's currently a disturbed paved area, cindy and cleaners, we're also up against a maximum.

M

Setback on maplewood avenue, where we would need a variance to change to more than 15.

M

Feet setbacks so there's a small sliver there again. This is overall a net reduction in impervious.

M

Tremendous amount of storm water management improvements- you know this is all sheet flowing.

M

Currently into the north mill pond, so this would be whole storm. Water management system.

M

In here that would completely change the dynamic of the storm water in this neighborhood. So.

M

Not only are we staying out of the 100 foot setback, but this also, you know we're proposing.

M

This community path- and this is an incentive that was put forward- you know- that's not our.

E

Purview, it's a little thing with a bow on it yeah. But it's you know a two-story building in.

M

This location can just be built, there's no incentive to you know, there's no incentive.

M

For that developer, to put in a community path or a greenway or any of this community space.

M

And it would just be yep unimproved and there would be no public access.

M

So uh I just would like to say: everybody's made good points and um personally I find.

A

That one of the problems with a and c is the symmetry on the front of the three and a half.

A

Story building and that's what gives it, especially on a that is almost a family industrial look.

A

Or an office building or rising from the street, just it's too formal that symmetry so b upsets.

A

The symmetry um with the what david would like to call the the japanese style and I'm.

A

Not really sure what design that frank roof is frank, lloyd wright went through a little.

F

Bit of it when we went to tokyo, yes, tokyo, hotel, yeah um in the lobby, yes, so um b, I feel.

A

Is good that way, and I also feel that d is good. I, like the rounded corners on both sides,.

A

One's a corner and the other one is um the infill or what? What makes the the transition.

A

From these three story to the four-story right there, I like that too, I'm much more satisfied.

A

With the back of the building, now, I'm thinking that you have added enough details with the.

A

Balconies etc, and um taking your word for the fact that the parking garage will be pretty.

A

Well, hidden, um so uh that's it for me.

C

I like what he have done one day uh by rounding, that edge coming around the street cannot.

C

Face as we used to be as with a big industrial building, is something softer, and certainly.

C

More welcoming and I applaud all the changes you've made, especially to the hotel and now.

C

To the uh this building to.

C

Make it fit in better, but it's still right across the streets of from a graveyard in.

C

Historic homes, it's right across from that mill pond and the great things you've done.

C

Would fit it's so much better in the middle of you know, by the ac hotel or back there.

C

But to be right on the edge of both history and the mill pond still makes it look too.

C

Large, okay, two massive yep: you want to do the hotel. Are there any changes? Well, we've captured.

N

The comments from last time, so I just want to sort of recap what I've heard on the mixed.

N

Use and then move on to the hotel. So I think there's some appreciation for the more modern.

N

Form of a the composition of d seems to be more favored, but possibly with a a more modern.

N

Spin of a um the three stories that are wrapping that whole sort of maplewood, starting on rains.

N

Hitting maplewood wrapping to the water um foreign, those three, those three story forms.

N

um Are going to be significantly lower than you know all the buildings in that in the.

N

On the entire vaughn street block, with the exception, of course, of 3s um there, it's it's.

N

Pretty um you know it's three stories at at the street, so I just wanted make sure that.

N

We it you'll you'll, read that um and then it goes to four uh with the penthouse at the.

N

N

I think our challenge is going to be to combine the some style elements and and uh composition.

N

Does that sound like a potential path, all right.

N

Moving on to 2.0, when we spoke last time there was.

N

Consensus that this scheme with the uh this was option c, I think option c yeah had the.

N

Textured brick banding and the more significant uh hotel metal composition at the entrance.

N

That also carried around to the corner facing market street. So moving on to 2.1, you can.

N

See those textures a little more clearly in the depiction there, as well as we've sort.

N

Of just developed and brought everything up to a little bit more detail, 2.2 shows the.

N

uh The corner and the the metal composition there and we've included all the details from.

N

That now so that you know you've, all you can have plenty of opportunity to. You know: go.

N

Through and um uh review that 0.3 was the view from across the pond that everyone appreciated.

N

With again the metal elements really breaking things up and starting to modulate that form.

N

With the gray brick change um at the uh you know, as as the uh you approach, the water and.

N

It steps down, and maybe that's sort of more what you're looking for in the mixed use as.

N

Well, something that is, I'm not, you know not quite as much of a departure, but still a definite.

N

Change um 2.4 gives you a closer look at that with again the details in both the brick.

N

Horizontal brick recessed areas at the base and then the texture, brick in the banding.

N

And 2.5 is that the view across from the in from the entire pond so then getting into.

N

3.0 or into materials, can I ask you a question sure 2.3.

A

The hotel from nepal, yes and then over on the left, is yes.

D

No, what's 145 maplewood, oh yeah, yeah.

B

Oh, no, I'm all the way over here, carlos out of you, I'm all the way over there yeah that's.

N

um Yeah so 145, I think it's actually taller than either of these buildings. I assume the.

A

Heinemann building was over more towards the right. Well, 3s is not reading very well. There.

N

That's why it's just sort of it's the jpegs are not reading, that's where they want to.

M

Put the mural on that wall of 3s because it is pretty blank right now: beth wants to dress.

M

That up, I know that yeah that's good nick. Can you go to the uh the view that had the.

H

Total across the pond view, 2.3, yes and that's optional, obviously option a in in the right.

M

One series sure, regardless I'm saying what appears to be five buildings, mm-hmm.

H

Okay, just throwing it on the tape we're supposed to take something from that. It meant a lot.

H

To me, oh, that's great yeah, not everyone gets it. Okay, I understand what you're saying I.

A

Mean um I would like to say that, uh as far as the um what's across the street, um yes,.

A

It's uh the historic buildings as three or four one of them is actually new, but it's.

A

A two-story it was built as a two-story, um and then the uh the cemetery weighs it's down.

A

You know it's more across from the former portsmouth herald building, I'm not even sure.

B

Who's in there now, but that two-story building that held the portsmouth herald at one time.

A

So we do have the heinemann's building uh also between the herald building, and this.

A

Project, so I guess what I'm trying to say is that we, this building, is pretty much surrounded.

A

By similar mass passing buildings, with the exception of the three assets- and I think.

M

To the cemetery is across the street, if I'm not mistaken from the russell street project.

M

That was approved, which is, I think, much much larger than this or what he said, yeah, which.

D

Is the portsmouth herald yeah 111 maplewood, not russell, but it's it's much more approximate.

M

To the cemetery than this project, it's across the oh, I don't think that's a good point yeah. So um it's because people.

A

Have mentioned uh b a number of times with that um rather exotic. Is that something that.

A

Everybody is in agreement of because I would hate to see them think oh e yeah and come.

A

Back and base your whole project on d um look to some other people. I know that you like.

A

That david was it's a presentation to the street yeah all right. So are you saying because.

J

It's a presentation, that's too strong! No, I I know I I find I find one of the tiny parts.

F

Of this whole thing that I think I can wrap my head around.

H

I I my first impression: wasn't it's exotic looking so maybe that's the japanese, but to.

H

Me it's got sort of a spiky road, warrior kind of quality to it that you know, I'm not sure.

H

That yeah um and and margo mentioned that again, if, if you were to do this, you want to.

H

See shades of it throughout the complex, and you know I don't know what that would look.

H

Like that, would that might be another six months worth of uh meetings.

N

Three teams on it. No, I I think that um um I think what you're seeing there that you.

N

Like is the further reduction of you know what what we talked about last time, where.

N

You had a pretty big square, you know you had a a wider square piece and we have brought.

N

It down to three stories, so that does make it appear wider and squattier in the previous.

N

Submissions and so eroding that corner gives it just a better balance and proportion, but.

J

It's more than that, because it's compared to d yeah! You've done this! Basically with.

J

What you just described, but it just feels like a huge battery or a spaceship. That's.

J

Gonna take off versus this looks like you, can it just it looks human. It looks livable.

J

It has some textures and different things happening. It could be maybe just calmed down.

N

A little bit, maybe that's what you're looking for I'm not, but maybe that's what your your.

N

Associates because, like I said we're so far out of the box already, we might you might.

J

As well make the most of it- and I know it's- a million there's a million opinions, but we're.

J

So far beyond anything in historic, I coming late to the game, I can't even believe that.

J

This was ever approved. It's like. Can we rewind the clock a couple decades, but this we're.

J

Here we are, and I think, you're really trying to make the most of it well and one of the.

N

Messages that I've been hearing having you know spoken with you all so many times is.

N

That you know quality materials, quality windows, quite no vinyl, all vinyls go on. You use bricks.

N

Use you know some stone or precast, or you know, really bigger corners with details and.

N

Corbels and maybe not there, you know, but but really uh amp up the the quality of the materials.

N

You're using to create the compositions, as well as the compositions themselves, which.

N

We've tried to do here. All this metal is certainly going to be significant, so this on on b again.

A

This is not really a canopy on the front corner right now. It's it's up on the fourth, the above.

A

The third floor balcony: does it have glass on it? It does not it's more like a pergola.

M

It's open to the air, it's open to the sky above yep and that's similar to what exists.

A

On the heinemann building, there's a rectangular wooden pergola. There are some things.

A

Must admit the heinemann building everybody talks and the heinemann's building? I think.

A

Is probably bigger than this one, but everybody says it. Is I like that? Okay, trying to figure.

A

Out where they're coming from you know it's a little confusing sometimes, um but um I I.

A

Do feel that you have added some details that uh doing some good here. So yes, margo uh just.

E

A side comment about the heinemann building. I think the size of the heinemann building.

E

Is successful because of its location away from the mill pond and it was stepped down.

E

To be sensitive to the buildings across the street, but you're headed where my brain was.

E

Headed, I saw your drawings over there, where you're taking elements of b and putting it.

E

Onto the simplicity of d is one of the problems I have with b. Is this feeling of um rectilinear.

E

Base: oh look at that. We're all done! Yeah rental, in your base with this cantilevering almost.

E

Curved element where I think to some extent d was more successful to me because you didn't.

E

Have that opposition of form, but jazzing it up a little bit? I would not be right opposed.

E

To which we happen to be sitting next to the jazz man.

M

So maybe something where the success of b is that there's balconies there's some projection.

M

On that corner d, maybe is too simple for some in that area. So is there some combination.

M

Where we we take well we're on d here, but if you go go everywhere on b, if you go to.

M

D, there is a sort of a railing at the top of that and if that is sort of brought down.

M

And we wrapped a balcony around that corner at two and three that might you know, connect.

M

Into the balcony, that's there uh within the brick you know, could introduce more of the.

M

What we see in in the two compositions could be very easily combined in your can lesson.

N

Will begin tomorrow, I really think what's important, you know whether or not we all like.

A

The balconies on b and such is that you have managed to make that section of the building.

A

Look like it has less massive, smaller looking. You know as you've taken that um center door.

A

With the windows on each side of it and it's three stories block high and then we've taken.

A

That away, I feel that's good.

N

Portions are better.

J

Yeah up to here.

D

To hear yeah, you do not one you want to hear you do. I mean we're here. We can't go backwards.

J

So what do you think we should do? I think you should hear from the public. Okay uh would.

A

Anybody else like to speak some more though, before we hear just well, you know one more.

H

Thing yeah, maybe that is the what b is doing. I just feel that the language in b is more.

H

Appropriate up against 3s in raw rusted metal and that's to me that has a quality. That's.

H

Not urban sophisticated, it's more urban edgy and you know it just looked for all like 3s.

H

And I'm not sure that that I I can't buy into being I'm kind of shocked that there there's.

H

Interest in me, but yeah and I have to agree with you md all the way b- looks heavy metal yeah. It doesn't seem to.

A

Be wrong about the corner, that's what he was saying.

E

I don't think anybody's going to be surprised, but I just want to double check, nobody's forgotten.

E

That the mass of this building is too big. For me, it's not too big in this location for.

E

The for the architectural style and if this were building were not sitting where it were.

E

I would completely agree with you: I would get behind this building if it were anywhere.

E

But right there. If this was a story shorter, it would look squatty and inappropriate for.

H

This area, from from all sides or from it, would look squatty and inappropriate. This is a historic.

H

Environment, it should not be two stories: it'll look like a strip, mall it'll, look awful. I.

E

Do not support three stories, two stories. Well, I'm just saying yes, there's something in between.

E

And this this is it's. The papa bear mama bear thing: one's too big and one's too small. I'm.

E

Not suggesting that two stories is appropriate here either, but this is a little bit too big.

H

I disagree any other comments, but they've obviously been approved proved. That's the.

J

Thing if, if something had happened earlier in the process, we wouldn't have to have that.

A

Discussion, this has not been approved.

J

um But I mean this complex they've jumped through see, I'm related to the planning board.

N

Yeah approval is complete, dude, that's what I'm so, but the the thing joanna is that our.

E

Purview with regard to mass for the historic district trumps of what is permitted. Okay,.

J

I'm on a learning curve, so that that's what I so we as clears up a lot as the htc. We have.

E

The ability to say, despite what planning, allows, okay, it is not appropriate for this particular.

E

Site or this particular architecture, or this particular context.

E

Right, so if that's it, um I think I have one other thing but uh go ahead. Sir, oh, can we.

N

Just do a quick, abcd or you can also say, b, plus d, a plus c whatever, because I I think.

N

I got it, but if we went around and around so can we get or a plus, b, plus c plus d. I.

N

Think that's fair yeah. It would be a minor b, a minor d.

H

I'll do d all the way: okay, I'll group, b and d, okay, too big.

N

Any style, a style point of view, d with alterations.

E

Thank you and it's a simplified d and b.

F

All righty I'm going to allow the public to speak on this work session. If anybody would.

A

Like to introduce themselves and give some words, foreign.

P

Thank you carla. It's a lot better! Oh good, a through d! Anything is better a b b c.

P

It it's difficult to see it back there, but either b or d e d. um But I would say I'll.

P

Throw a curve: what is the hotel have to be five stories and a straight line? Why can't.

P

The hotel be a bookend to the mixed-use building.

P

um I assume it's going to be a tremendously successful hotel um and creating this as a.

P

As a second book end makes people want to stay somewhere a little different than the.

P

Ac hotel, which is just sort of okay, it's great! It's modern, it's gray! It's it's fun, but give.

P

Them something else to think about: staying in around room cornered room, something they.

P

Want to pay for so maybe if you go to, I don't know which one the japonesque one was where.

P

We were doing a little.

P

um There it's a little strange, it's a little different, but maybe that's where people might like to.

P

Stay um so if you flip that and bookended it, I didn't know whether the numbers would.

P

Work, I don't know whether it be too costly to build, but it might be a little bit different.

P

For down there, it might give you I agree with margot. Unfortunately, the mass on the mill.

P

Pond is just too large, but in an imperfect world, maybe bookending the two buildings might.

P

Give everyone the the mama bear the baby bear and the in-between bear, but thank you for.

P

Taking all of our probably less than generous comments, the less go around to heart and actually.

P

Coming up with something thank you.

Q

Good evening liza hewitt 726 middle road, the city's master plan calls for two and a half.

Q

Story: buildings along the north mill pond. The zoning ordinance allows for two to four.

Q

Stories and these developers have decided to build buildings with five stories. I guess.

Q

Because they are leaving open space in the hundred foot wetland buffer, which you can't.

Q

Build on anyway, because of its proximity to the water, the architect and developers have.

Q

Ignored some of the hdc members and resident concerns about heightened mass. I really don't.

Q

Feel that rounding the corners is going to take care of that.

Q

I'm sorry um do you think we won't notice that the buildings are still five stories.

Q

Please make them follow something that resembles the master plan. It was developed for a reason.

Q

B

Good evening duncan mccallum 536 state street, um I don't have a whole lot to add to what.

O

I said the last time the developers have come forward tonight and made some tinkering changes.

O

But they haven't addressed the real problem which this this, these buildings are just too.

O

Big, they are out of place and they are too massive. They're inconsistent with the character.

O

Of the downtown area, they are inconsistent with the character of the north mill pod. They.

O

Are especially they're in con inconsistent with the scenic character of the north mill.

O

Pond they just don't belong there. I mean it's that simple: they can make all the piddling.

O

Changes they want to, but it doesn't solve the real problem. They're too big. They don't.

O

Belong, they should be disapproved. Thank you, foreign.

I

South street, um this is the historic district and I really appreciate that you took the.

I

Advice last time and this the appearance steps back, but you step back and to that upward.

I

Five stories again, um I guess I would ask in I think it was viewed with that glass thing.

I

There um about the um the the materials being used, don't really seem to fit the historic.

I

District or the historic nature of that area, it's more my opinion, uh industrial and I think.

I

We still have the massing here. I agree with margot on most of her points. The opportunity.

I

Here is to um step it back. I think you've taken that opportunity on this side and.

I

I would also agree with uh miss trace about um especially the hotel, the hotel from what.

I

We saw looks like a big block to me and uh doing something different here and blending.

I

It in and giving it some balance um would make it more attractive. In my opinion, thank.

I

You foreign good evening, esther kennedy, 41 pickering ave, and I want to thank everyone for their.

L

Hard work tonight um I guess I was a little taken back by a comma. You made, sir, that if.

L

We don't do this, we won't get our path. um I hope that that isn't the answer. I hope we're.

L

Here to work together and come up with a good plan um a long time ago, we talked about stepping.

L

Down to different things, and I've heard commissioner wyckoff say that when I sat on the acc and.

L

I've heard others, and I guess I do believe the masking's too big and I don't know if.

L

There's any way to step it down as we look at the water and look around there, those some.

L

Of our older houses are in that area. um I think our master plan does call that we think.

L

Of our buffer zone- and I do believe that has not been totally looked at yet, um but the.

L

Htc does have the right to look at massey and when I sat on the htc for the two and.

L

A half years we did a lot of look on the massing these buildings, whether 30 years, which I was.

L

Told one of the buildings that was built over in this area was only a 30-year building, but.

L

Whether the 30 50 or 100 year, building as commissioner as margot said, um people are.

L

Still gonna have to look at it for a long time for the vegetation to grow in, and I want.

L

To look at another building called port walk when that building was being looked at. We.

L

Were promised all this vegetation that was going to be on the greenery on the walls and.

L

It was going to keep looking amazing and it was going to cover up a lot of things. I venture.

L

To have you all drive by there, because that is not happening. The thing about vegetation.

L

Is it can be very change, and if it's not kept up, it doesn't cover what it says. It's going.

L

To cover and there's a lot of what-ifs in it, so I would encourage you, um though I like.

L

Vegetation and I like what was her, what we heard tonight, I would encourage you to really.

L

Think about the structure and make it right without the vegetation and then think of the.

L

Vegetation as a positive after the effect, I always find it's interesting with these.

L

Kinds of pictures we put a lot of vegetation in it and what are we truly trying to cover.

L

Up the mass, so as you go forward, I hope you do keep your mission in mind and look at the.

L

Massing, I also think that I've heard some of you say talk in the past. Talk about stepping.

L

Down and I really believe, we're stepping down to a waterfront, and what does that look like.

L

um But I do not believe we need a spaceship as one of the plants seemed to look like. Thank.

L

A

From the public you've heard from us and the public, and um when do you want to come back.

M

I guess next month, next month january, you know next week. My bill will soon make a motion.

E

To continue until january, exactly all those in favor.

A

We adjourn, certainly, um I ask a question for the benefit of people who have not been on.

E

The commission long enough to go through the annual process that we go through in january.

E

Could nick review um how that works? The decision on who leads us.

D

um Other than go back with the rules of procedure for this door, commission require yeah like.

D

Every other land use board in january, the officers of the board to be elected by the.

D

Board itself, so the chair and vice chair are elected in january of each year. For generally.

D

The first meeting of the year.

E

John, did you have any thoughts on how that process would happen? um In the past, we have.

A

Had secret boats with torn paper or something like that where we had um and I think that's.

A

Essentially, how how um I would probably should happen. I would just like to say that I feel.

A

Comfortable as the chairman and I feel as being on this board for 17 years, that um this.

A

Is my last go wrong, so I just feel that um I would continue to be the chair. I mean I.

A

Would like to continue to be the chair, and I would like to put the board in any. um Whichever.

A

Direction they want to go. I don't feel that I'm my job is to set a direction. My job is.

A

Basically, just to keep the meetings going and uh you know read the proposals, so that's.

A

How I feel about it, we do have to do it next month. However,.

J

Because we're not doing more homework and I plan on getting much more conversant with.

D

You yeah, okay, all right, we're still on tv, yeah, okay! Well, my feeling is when you said that your.

J

Job is to push things forward, um the if we know that we have the veto power and we all.

J

Feel that the massing is so great, why don't we just I'm not saying this? What we should.

J

Do this is really a question? Why aren't we just not going to these people and saying.

J

Back to the drawing board, it's too big, you have to cut it down to two and a half stories.

J

Why are we I can answer that I think is it? Is it fair to discuss this project without.

D

No, no so she's giving a hypothetical, I think, yeah. Sorry! I just feel like I've been a little.

A

In the dark we've closed, that particular, no, that's all right! We're not just talking about.

A

The prior applicant in general and the mastic buildings have been built in the city's master.

J

Plan and and what the veto power is of this committee, so this commission has jurisdiction.

D

Over the scale, height and massing of any structure in the historic district, the zoning ordinance.

D

Sets sort of the min and the max in the case of the downtown zoning, because there's buildings.

D

Are are required to be at least two stories and they go as high as as five and it depends.

D

Where your property is located, but if you're in a location that the zoning ordinance allows.

D

You to have a four-story building such as many of them in the north end. The zoning also.

D

Allows you to get a fifth floor if you provide certain incentives like workforce housing,.

D

Or open space to the city, however, the htc, if it finds a building, uh is too large too.

D

Tall um and two out of scale with its location and its context, you're not obligated to approve.

D

The maximum theoretical volume height scale and massing of a building, so I can tell you.

D

From past practice, when larger projects come before the commission, they come through many.

D

Meetings generally many work sessions and beyond understanding the context which is.

D

Step one not talking about how big the building is, but where is it being proposed to be located.

D

Is it over where the ac hotel is? Is it on russell street or walk down on the end of.

D

State street next to the bridge, the first step is to look at the neighborhood context.

D

To see what the scale massing volume and even the styles are of, what's around it, the second.

D

Step is to get into a massing discussion just with cubes blocks, no articulation of openings.

D

But texture in order to determine whether the massing is appropriate for that location.

D

In that context, then you get into the stylistic. uh Is it modern? Is it contemporary? Is it traditional.

D

And then you work towards the details of the preferred style. Now, there's nine people that.

D

Sit on this commission, although this commission likes to move towards unanimity, it's not a.

D

Requirement applicants only need four votes of the seven voting members to have an approved.

D

Project so you're going to hear when you sit here plenty of dissent. There are dissenting.

D

Opinions and when you're working through a long-term set of work sessions, it sometimes.

D

Is tricky for the applicant to know exactly what to do, which is why we try and summarize.

D

When we're done a discussion looking at options where a majority of the commission has landed.

D

Because it doesn't mean the minority opinion is discounted, but it it may not get what it.

D

Wants so, but in this hypothetical discussion we're having of a hypothetical project, it.

J

Seems to me that the majority opinion is that there's too much mass in well, I I would only.

D

Say without wanting to talk about the project, I don't think that's correct. You know and.

D

You have to at least accept, even if you don't like the outcome, I can tell you the project.

D

That just left has probably had no less than 12 work sessions, and I tried to describe to.

D

You what we follow for a sequence of events, and I can tell you the last three to four.

D

Months, if not more has been focused on the details, right that doesn't mean massing. You.

D

Can't you can't back up a little bit and there are members that are still stuck on step. Two.

D

And and can't get beyond it: okay, I'm not a professional in the tree in the trades, so.

F

I thank you for your your very direct words there's another thing underlying all of this.

F

Which is they have the right within 30 days to go to the zoning board of adjustment? Have.

F

The decision of the board overturned and the zoning board of adjustment you're speaking.

F

To a 22-year veteran here does not share the sensibilities that this commission practices.

B

And you certainly just on a practical level just between two of us. Nobody else, you don't.

F

Want somebody else that is not sharing your sensitivities, making decisions that override.

F

You keeping that foot on the throttle, but feathering it back every now and then you.

F

Have to be able to raise your clients read the project. It's come a long way, but the battle.

F

Still will get shifted to a board that you have no control over and it's a humbling damn.

F

Event to sit in one of those damn chairs and watch it happen to you. Okay, I understand thank.

J

You again, I'm learning trying to be candid here. No I'm! I appreciate it very much and.

E

And remember: the discussion tonight is missing several people, so karen isn't here and rich.

E

Isn't here and reagan isn't here so what you're hearing now is not, as representative of the.

E

Full rainbow right and I'm trying to speak in the hypothetical yep all right. Thank you.

J

um So um john, thank you for your comments on on um the process and and where we might.

E

Go and what you're thinking about, um and so my question is um after next week's meeting.

E

Would there be an opportunity for us, perhaps as a group, to discuss what we feel is important.

E

In a chairperson, so that if anybody is interested in saying huh I'd like I'd like to be considered.

E

That people will understand what that entails. That could happen on in january. I I would.

A

Like to say that that has never happened, I have never heard that I've never heard a separate, separate talk with everybody, giving.

A

What they want to see in a chairperson or whatever it's been, you know it happens in.

A

January and that's all I can say, [music] can someone nominate another person or nominate.

C

Themselves definitely nominate another person, certainly, and but I mean my point- is that.

E

At that point you sort of people have been put forward and okay, so nobody said it nobody's.

E

Had a chance to realize that you're trying to be sympathetic- and you know to me and how.

A

You're presenting that, what I'm trying to say is that I find it very difficult to walk.

E

Into a meeting where I need to make a decision, having had no opportunity whatsoever to give.

E

It research thought consideration.

A

Never heard that comment before.

A

I think it's um I don't know what to say. I just um our requirements are not actually.

F

Procedural rules, they're just requirements right yeah exactly and, as I said, the chair's.

A

Job is basically to run. The meeting is not to set an agenda. It's not to you know, push.

A

The count of the commission in one direction or the other, it's just to run the meeting.

A

And let the members talk and if I feel I need to make a comment that I do. But it's that's.

A

Why it's one of the things at the many years ago, when mr almeida came forward, was, is penchant.

A

For you know, lively discussion and he had to realize that as the chairman you're, not.

A

In the mix immediately, it's a few to let everyone else talk. John. Would you not say that there.

H

Is work beyond this evening that occurs with the chair that a person with background would.

H

Be the city would benefit from a person with a professional background.

H

In the in design and in construction in these things in preservation, so that that should.

H

Be kept in mind when it's not just to run the meeting. There is other things outside.

H

Of the meeting yeah and I have been involved in those types of discussion, and I would like.

A

To say that you have to be careful as the chair what you say. As a matter of fact, you.

A

Cannot at that point I would think be involved in any public discussion as far as writing.

A

Into the paper or any of that sort of thing, it's just not appropriate for the chair of.

A

A quasi-judicial group to you know have that power to do that. It is just not right um all.

A

I can say is um to me that that the discussion is is good, um but I feel similar to, for instance,.

A

A somebody in the police department, for instance, who's a lieutenant and all of a sudden he's.

A

He's been made a captain, so he's a captain for one year and then the police department.

A

Said uh yeah you're not going to be the captain anymore you're, going to go down to the lieutenant.

A

Again, how would that person feel? So that is how I'm going to feel, I think, as going back.

A

To a lieutenant- and um it really shortens my term on this board.

B

That's how I feel so nick what are the are there additional requirements of the commissioner.

E

The chairman, outside of running the meetings that people who might be interested need to.

E

Know: meetings with you, meaning you know what other, what other things are going to take.

E

Up time that somebody who might be interested needs to know about because we don't see that.

A

Yeah well, the primary thing is: we always have a pre-meeting today, yeah monthly meeting to.

D

Go over the agenda for the applications.

D

A month meeting and then there are as needed meetings throughout the year, but that's the.

D

Primary function, there's certainly the opportunity when we're working on a grant application.

D

Working on zoning amendments to coordinate with that person uh offline between meetings.

E

And um administrative things like in 2000, was it 2017 that the design standards were.

E

Rewritten is that who, who decides her to suggest that was the whole old commission yeah? We.

D

Did that yeah that I mean who brings forward those ideas, anybody well, obviously, the commission.

D

At that time the commission uh requested the chair represent the commission in front of.

D

The city council for the appropriation to to secure the funding to do that. The chair.

D

Coordinated with me on the issuance of an rfp to get the selected consultant and then.

D

The full commission uh worked with me and that consultant to prepare those design guidelines.

D

Same sort of event, with the 3d massing model, so there is some representation in front of.

D

The city council, when we have an appropriation or a zoning amendment we haven't had one for.

D

A while, um but that's definitely in the past, been a role for the chair on behalf of the.

E

Commission so there's more than just running the meetings I I want to find out what's involved before I say anything about about that, but I have.

E

Run meetings in the past, I felt comfortable doing it, but I don't like to walk into things.

E

Blindly- and I don't want to elect somebody to a position, if I don't understand fully.

E

I mean I understand what I see. I understand what I saw vince do I understand what I see.

E

John do but there's stuff I didn't know. I didn't know about the monthly meetings you.

E

Know I don't know what role the a chairman might play if we talked about um going back.

E

And reviewing large infill projects, for example, you know who brings forward those ideas who.

E

Carries that idea who organizes it I'd like to, I just want to know, I think, usually as.

A

Far, as you know, reviewing we have had nick has actually uh brought that forward to discuss.

A

Some of the changes- and you know that sort of thing.

D

Yeah I mean one thing we did. I mean I've been sitting here for 11 years. uh I think for the.

D

First, six or seven years we would take the opportunity in january. Well, first of all, there.

D

Were cycles before uh maybe we're entering one here with a little more breathing room.

D

It's only 8 30 and we're having this conversation, which is a big relief and it's been a while.

D

There's an opportunity for us collectively at least once a year, to chart a course for.

D

Things we want to do that are go beyond just reviewing applications, so we can get ahead.

D

Deal with the spider web of hvac stuff on the outside of the building, we've talked about.

D

That you're here, making it a priority and for me to on your behalf, to work on that bring.

D

It back have a subcommittee, I mean I definitely we have a working list that needs some attention.

D

And I probably need some help in order to move through it. We got the certified local.

D

Government application ready for the city council, but that took a lot longer than it.

D

Probably should have um so yes, there are. We used to have an annual meeting quite a few.

D

Years ago, where we would dedicate a couple of hours to mapping out things like that, we'd.

D

Like to get done, we rewrote all the together the exemptions it went from 12 to 23. um We.

D

Just did a zoning amendment for the building hype, which includes a disclaimer, a very explicit.

D

Statement making clear the jurisdiction of the htc and that an applicant shouldn't misconstrue.

D

The code as the theoretical max being the min says very clearly now in the ordinance.

D

As of a couple of months ago, that the htc has full jurisdiction over the height masking.

D

And scale of the buildings in respect to the building and again david's, not wrong. You can't.

D

Do it stupidly if there's a two to five story, limit you're going to be very hard-pressed.

D

To defend a two-story cap, but just because it says two to five doesn't mean you're you're.

D

Stuck with five, so you're gonna have to build a case of the contacts, the site, the massing.

D

Of the building as to where you're comfortable as a group between two and five probably closer.

D

To five than two, can I ask another question I I feel so ignorant. I really need to do my.

J

Homework, but is there any interface between the this master plan and the zoning and planning.

B

Yes, does it have any teeth, or is it just a guide? The master plan is supposed to. I mean.

D

When people go to the mic and mention master plan, it's really important to differentiate.

D

Between specific plans, like the north end vision plan, which is it you could construe.

D

It as a master plan, it's a it's a master plan for a very targeted area versus the master.

D

Plan for the whole city, which is a separate document which has a lot of high level goals.

D

Objectives and policies and an action plan with implementation strategies, some of which.

D

Are zoning amendments, but not strictly? Some of them are funding objectives, some of them.

D

Are projects um so, ideally the code is, it is the the master plans translated into the.

D

Code, so when we did these charrettes, these vision plans for the downtown originally, then.

D

The north end, then, the west end separate planning processes. Three four day, charettes build a.

D

Vision plan: the next step is to translate that into the code and you translate it. People.

D

Draft it, then it goes through the city council, in some cases, the historic mission, but the.

D

Planning board and the city council are primarily responsible for code amendments code, amendments.

D

Are done in a public process? They get adopted they're supposed to be consistent with the.

D

Master plan, or in the case of those three areas, those specific plans, so I would argue.

D

There's there's a lot of imperfections between the the wide variety of so-called master plans.

D

And the code, but to a large degree, they're consistent and it doesn't mean everybody's.

D

Interpretation of each of those is the same, and the north end vision plan is an excellent.

D

Example, where you can see some illustrative drawings that are to many eyes very inconsistent.

D

With the code, that's envisioned by the same author on the next page, all the building heights.

D

In the north end in the vision plan are higher than what's in the zoning ordinance as an.

D

As of right scenario, wow and that's in the same document, you hear many people say it's.

D

Two and a half stories, it's one story. There are areas that have lower buildings and there.

D

Was a preference to stepping from the water up to the edge, not just for the one we just.

D

Talked about but the north end, but the way the zoning was construed was to bring the.

D

Heights down and then have them go back up with the public benefits of either workforce.

D

Housing, so so again it's not it's not that nuanced. I think it's fairly clear, but obviously.

D

It isn't clear to everybody, because we we hear a lot of critique of what the north end.

D

Vision plan means it doesn't mean and how how the code translated that, but there's room.

D

For improvement is the bottom line, but we're not we're not in two different worlds.

D

The whole business of development within 100 feet of a water body or a wetland that is.

D

Not crystal clear as to what the city's ordinances say, you can and cannot do so. There's you hear.

D

A lot of debate- and I think it's fair- that the community revisit the vision and the code.

D

And get it to be clearer, so we don't have such divergent opinions on the same language.

D

As we've clearly arrived to that point in the last couple of years, code hasn't changed.

D

For a long time- and it's been done a certain way for a long time- it appears to be no longer.

D

Supported by a lot of people in the community, what we've been doing for a long time, so it's.

D

Time to revisit it, and it really starts with the city, council and them deciding to review.

D

That and initiate that planning process. So I know I'm digressing, but it's important given.

C

How much we hear yeah and, of course, there's work to be done. There's not much left in the.

E

North end that hasn't been built on that would be affected by any kind of future ordinance.

E

That might lower the height. I mean maybe some of the areas along deer street, where those.

E

Buildings haven't haven't happened yet, but you know there really isn't much left. Unfortunately,.

A

And west end yards is the whole thing goes back to the 1970s when they tore everything.

A

Down that's where it all started. As far as these, these structures go and the reality.

A

Is is most of these buildings in the north end are not we're not demoing we're not taking.

A

Out a historic structure and placing those giant things that these were just all either.

A

Vacant or underutilized or that type of law you know they were parking, it's a whole different.

J

Ballgame parking area, so if there is new development, you know we're in the right area. You know.

A

With that not daniel street, we talked about it more education, bringing experts in will you saying that might have.

H

Been reagan talking about a grant to no, no you when you said that supported the job of.

C

This I thought you men of the chairman, was the experts and uh no I'll be the expert. I.

C

Had lost, I lost, no, the chairman should be well versed in in certain areas of of design.

H

Or construction or engineering or or you know, uh preservation, that's what I'm saying that.

H

um I I think we'd be well led by someone with with an experience in that, and you know I.

I

Think john john brings that experience um and.

C

I think most of the members other than me, I'm just here, because I'm the old guy that.

B

Lived in town for 40 some years bring special experiences. I would you know david and john.

C

I think have been very helpful to not only tell the applicant the way they're going wrong.

C

But to give them good suggestions absolutely right, absolutely and then your experience.

C

With architects and reagan's with preservations is a neat mix, uh but I think that's how I.

C

See the governance of this committee, as just a committee and the chairman, you know job.

B

Is mostly directing it and hitting the gavel every now and then and reading another long.

I

Lines yeah: um do you think it should be more of a top down, as opposed to a committee action.

C

I mean have uh no, not at all. I think everything. Equally, uh every voice is a vote yeah. I think.

C

I think it's how it should be, I think how it works, and uh I mean I disagree with margot.

H

On the massing of of one of our projects that we discussed tonight, um really hypothetical.

M

Hypothetically, um I just I feel strongly about one way and I'm sure she feels strongly you.

H

Know in an opposite way: yeah so yeah no and I value both of those opinions, yeah and somewhere.

C

I have to figure out how I think, but he liked my opinion more yeah. I think the john john.

E

Made an interesting point, john made an interesting point about joe almeda that that the position.

E

Of chairperson, you said requires that person to be a little more. I don't know, what's a.

E

Word circumspected not as loud. We would, I don't know yeah whatever. Whatever it was. You.

E

Were saying joe needed to be less of, and and so it in some ways it kind of contradicts.

E

What martin is saying about having your experts being able to speak freely? Because they know.

E

A boatload not that joe considered himself an expert. Also I mean he is the. He is well.

A

I know what he is now I don't know what he was then yeah. He worked over the navy yeah.

E

Yeah but I mean I think it's it's a thing to consider that you want to have your most.

E

Experienced voices be absolutely free to speak now as chairperson, you can speak as much as.

E

You like, if, but you said you you can't so it's kind of it didn't say I can't I said.

A

It's just the main job of the chair is to you know, get the meeting going get that proposal.

A

Read get that everybody talking try to get everyone to talk, that's something else. I've.

A

Tried to do, and I don't think that um we had done that in the past. It was you know, a lot.

A

Of people would just sort of sit there and not say anything, and then they would vote.

A

So I mean I've tried to get everyone to speak.

F

Can't help I've got to it's got to be said. um I served back in the horse and buggy days.

F

On the commission and for a good long period of time, uh the chairman was uh mr john rice.

F

um And and john, if you're listening, I love you. We all know that I'm not saying the man's.

F

Is numb as a pounded post, but he had no issues whatsoever with architecture, but what he was.

F

Is just effing decent? He was just decent and anybody that came to that podium spoke john.

F

Cleared the floor swept the walkway and let them speak their will and encourage them. Listened.

F

And then chose the next person and ran that meeting like like he was in the military again.

F

um He had no agenda whatsoever, I'm not saying he had to poke him to tell him that it was.

F

Over but he was very calm and methodical and went paid step by step and he ran a good meeting.

F

And we had, I will say those were the salad days to the city of portsmouth, but you know.

F

What I'm talking about um so, yes, there are probably benefits depending on what is the.

F

People that are coming before you, one of the things that we had during the john rice days.

F

Was a much angrier city council, uh the person that I sat next to uh many for many meetings.

F

Would tell me what the vote would be to do away with the hdc that week, if it was held.

F

To the city council, john hines, thank you very much um ed, and uh there were people that came.

F

From the floor that were had had, the htc depend descend upon them like a snowstorm. uh There.

F

Was still old timers so to speak that were before that time and were still chafing over.

F

The idea that they had to come and do anything so there was a lot more management of an ira.

F

Crowd on either side of the diocese yeah, um and so it required a different kind of person.

F

And not at all, like I loved getting in a cage match with you, there's no question about it.

F

um But it could be that you're, absolutely right, but my recognition of john was he was.

F

Dead on so it can be done. I think it can be done with the right kind of person. I am not.

F

That kind of person- so I you know it's a simple one for me: okay anyway, it's a thing. They're.

B

Trying to eliminate so I've got to have. I have to have an issue here with what the way.

F

You're going with this thing, you're defending yourself during the process of talking about.

F

What's going on, uh it doesn't wear. Well, I don't recall last year when we voted you in.

F

As chairman, that it was a lifetime appointment or that it even had to be in your mind,.

F

So all right, I'm not sure that that this isn't like a demotion. This is a choosing of someone.

F

To carry the stick or the flag or the torch, but it's not we're not taking your rank away.

F

You're still a crotchety old man. This is something for me to decide. Well, thank you for sharing.

F

Your process of decision, but that I don't, I hope that isn't the thing that slays somebody's.

F

Decisions to who should be chairman or not it's not what your feelings are. John, oh, my.

F

God that we can't be responsible, that's sort of a human, an emotion, oh geez, now you're suggesting.

F

That other people don't have those I'm suggesting, maybe you don't have them? It won't be the.

F

First time, [laughter] no you've got a ton of emotion, love your passion. Do we know what.

C

Reagan's willing to be vice chair, we have to know that by next I think we're getting.

H

Too far into yeah I mean I feel, like I feel you're right john is like defending his position.

H

Margo feel like you're campaigning, and you know I'm not sure this is the appropriate.

A

I didn't mean to be defending up qualifications, for you look I didn't mean to be defending.

A

Myself, what I just want, what I just want: sherman yeah, what I just wanted to know was march.

A

To atlanta you know if nominated I'll serve, but I I have no ambitions. What I just wanted.

E

To know is when the discussion of who's interested what they think should happen, what their vision.

E

Is if they want to be chairman when all of this would happen, and if it was going to happen.

E

First thing: in the january meeting at the end of the january meeting, were we going to.

E

Have an opportunity to discuss campaign whatever you want to call it before january. I just.

E

Don't like to walk in blind, so I'm you have done that. You know this is our discussion.

A

Okay, this is this: is it it's too bad that some people were not here? I know it is too.

A

Bad and um I'm sure that uh he'll catch up.

A

Yeah we schedule that is the first thing january yeah we might as well yeah.

C

We got to know if reagan's interested in being a second. So if anybody is disgusting me things.

D

Because january is generally when it takes place as the first order, I think we actually.

A

Went a few years without without doing it, without voting really yeah, that must have.

D

Been before my time well, no, I don't think it was. I think it was about three. I know we.

E

Didn't always do it in the first meeting in january yeah! Well, the chairperson would just.

E

Continue as the active care person but yeah, so we just sort of remembered in the middle.

A

Of february, or something when I believe it was when uh vince was chair, he just sort of.

A

Kept going well in the spirit of making it a peaceful event.

D

You know, maybe because next week isn't particularly long either we have more on the agenda than.

D

Tonight you guys can decide at the end of that meeting. If there's a few more minutes.

D

You want to put into the conversation I'm just throwing that out there. So in january,.

D

We can address it, maybe reagan's here and rich karen's here rich is here yeah. They can.

D

Be caught up directly.

A

So move all those in favor.