City of Portsmouth, New Hampshire Historic District Commission, 4 Jan 2023

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1.4.2023 Historic District Commission

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Recording in progress.

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Hello, everybody and welcome to the january 4th meeting of the historic district commission. The.

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Board's actions in these matters have been deemed to be quasi-judicial in nature. If.

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Any person believes any member of the board has a conflict of interest. That issue shall.

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Be raised at this point or it will be deemed waived, so this is the time of year when we.

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Elect to new officers, we have to get this out of the way, introduce everybody first and then.

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um Certainly, no it's a you know. I will introduce everybody first, okay, joanna landis, hello and.

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You're brown good evening and martin ryan good evening reagan rudy good evening. uh Current.

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Vice chair, I should say my name is john wyckoff, uh nick cracknell from the playing.

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Department good evening from our city, council, representative, rich baleon good evening and.

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um Margo doring hello and david adams good evening, okay and so now we'll have the election of office.

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um I would like to um nominate mr wyckoff again for another year of.

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Chairmanship, thank you I'll, second, that alrighty, um so we've found out that in the past we had.

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What we were preparing for are these kind of secret votes, but we're not supposed to do that so.

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Open we'll call yeah.

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Oh, my goodness, you can't hear me, can you hear me now? That's too close, I'm sorry.

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Somebody's waving at me here, um so I I'll call for a voice vote role, all right, yeah.

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Any other one, any other nominations. Do we do uh well we'll do vice chair after okay yeah.

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You gotta want to stop down start down there. uh I don't last time you said that, because I'm an.

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Alternate, yes, that's correct. um Would you like to vote? Please uh I vote. Yes, I approve yes, okay, hi.

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No, no and I'll vote I so that is six to one for the record: yep, okay,.

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um Now we need a vice chair. I would like to nominate margo doring for vice chair.

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um I've very much appreciated being vice chair this year, but I haven't really done anything and.

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um We have a lot of of sort of administrative and other projects that we would like to tackle. That.

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um I just don't have the time to do, but margo is willing to do it, um and so I would like.

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All righty, okay, dan agreed approved, approved. Yes, yes, yes,.

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After all, kevin mccarthy votes for himself, you know that's the way it is.

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um So we have just gotten through this little bit of democracy,.

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um Now we have the approval of the minutes. That's december 7th and december 14th.

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There's a move, we approved the minutes as presented. Well, I have to abstain from.

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December 7th- because I was not here- okay- well- we'll do them separately december, 7th.

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I second that approval; okay, all those in favor all right, those against all right now.

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We'll do december 14th approve um a motion to approve seconded all right, all those in favor.

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Aye against all right, so we have that now we're moving on to item three administrative approvals.

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And, as nick has just informed me, they're all continued two next week next week, yeah.

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So uh do we need a continuance? Emotion, continue! Okay, somebody please so moved. Second, all those in.

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Favor aye aye opposed public hearings, old business. We have request to postpone 43 holmes court llc.

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um Request to postpone seacoast management and consulting about three walton alley.

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um And a request: a postpone.

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See brian cassie 46 mark street, and these will be to next week no they're, all sorry. The first.

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Two uh three walton and 43 homes are to february all right and 46. Mark street will come back next.

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Week, okay, there's some confusion on there all right. Does everyone understand that yeah and then.

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There's one more work session right. You might as well do the work session for uh 95 daniel.

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Okay, we'll post postpone the work session also for 95-99 daniel street.

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I was going to do um some some of those in favor hi opposed, mr chairman. Yes,.

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It's I've been asked by a member of the public about what the issue with postponement is. Why.

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Some projects seem to be able to be postponed into perpetuity and I'm wondering if we could.

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At some point be able to wrap our heads around what value there is in postponing over and over.

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And over again, that's a good question. Let me answer that. Yes, please nick, so we generally.

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Have a policy not a rule that we will postpone projects for six months? Sometimes it's eight.

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But at six months we start asking serious questions about why they haven't come back.

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Usually the case for a postponement is based on the need to go to the board of appeals or.

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Another land use board before they come back here in the case of three walton, for example,.

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Which you brought to my attention and I've communicated with the butter that came to you.

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And that person needs to go, get a variance at the boa for the condenser portion of the application.

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So she's got to complete that before she can actually have her public hearing here. She's done.

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She started with a public hearing and the condenser moved around it's in an area that.

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Requires a variance now because it's over on the right hand, side close to the neighbor, so it needs.

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Dimensional relief before you can actually hold your hearing the benefit to the property owner.

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Of not simply withdrawing the application and coming back after the boa is probably the the.

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Three to five hundred dollars for the legal ad in the application fee. That would need to be.

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Re-Initiated to come back and after six months, we typically tell people you've got to withdraw.

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It's taking too long and the neighbors can't keep up because they only get noticed at the beginning.

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And it's incumbent on everybody to see what your postponement date is each month, and so it does get.

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Difficult for the butters to keep up with, what's happening, not not to put words in the mouth of the.

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Butter that spoke to me about this, but but is couldn't, wouldn't it wouldn't a regular normal.

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Person think of it as an abuse or a hardship on an abutter to be every single month being told.

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That an issue that they may have some conflict or interest in is going to be up for renewal or.

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Whatever- and they have to make sure that they're in town that wednesday night over and over and.

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Over again for months on end and never knowing when is going to be the real time to have it.

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Happen well, I'd say. Yes, the agenda said a week before the meeting, which isn't a huge amount of.

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Relief, but you don't have to find out the day of the meeting it's being postponed or you don't have.

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To come to city hall, if you have the ability to get to a computer or your phone and look.

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At the agenda a week before the meeting, that's already noticed that it's going to be continued.

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Or postponed so I'm going to have to come up with a nice way of saying that it's in your your.

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Prerogative to be your best, uh yeah uh defendant or advocate yes, okay, I will do so, sir. You know.

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Yeah, it's not easy and I think there are points and counterpoints on both sides. But that's why.

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We try to stick to the six-month rule and I know sometimes it's gone eight. You know we have the.

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State street project in front of us forever. You know probably eight months before we kick them off.

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um But we don't, we don't have a little timer beside it from it's also from the outside. At.

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Some sometimes seems like it could be frivolous uh for people that don't know the actual pieces and.

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Parts of what's going on yeah. Thank you very much. Thank you. Nick so um public hearings, old business.

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Of petition of dagny taggart llc owner for property located at 93, pleasant street.

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Wherein permission is requested to allow changes to a previously approved design.

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Raise the rear, stay, stairwell and change the siding material and to temporarily remove existing.

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Stone wall and reconstruct after construction as per plans on file in the planning department, said.

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Property is shown on our sesame map. 107 is lot, 74 lies within character, district 4 and historic.

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Districts and who here is presenting this good evening, tracy kozak with our cove architects,.

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Here, on behalf of the applicants, I'm here tonight with also representatives from mcnabb properties.

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And severino construction, the site contractor. If there are additional questions and bernie lee from.

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Severino will be also explaining some of the pages and drawings at the end of this presentation. Just.

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A quick clarification: I think this application is only the stonewall tonight and nothing else.

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Yeah, that's all that's left! Okay, yeah great, so I won't read this verbatim but the front page which.

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You see here describes a little bit about the history of this wall. We have talked a lot about.

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This wall from the very very first work session as being of utmost importance. We, as you may recall,.

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The original design in one of the first work sessions had the new addition on the back right up.

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To the wall and at that point the wall was going to be temporarily removed and then put back as a.

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Attached veneer to the foundation that didn't go anywhere, so we came back with a new design or the.

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New building is pushed back a number of feet from the wall to allow us to protect it and during the.

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Course of investigating the wall and the history, as you may read from this narrative, we found that.

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It does in fact, date back to one of the earliest periods of the city, the original house that was.

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On this site, it's no longer there dates down back to about. 1696 was the home of senior thomas packer.

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Who was the father of the notorious thomas packer, who executed ruth blay a bunch of other really.

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Significant historic stuff happened on that site, mostly in the house that is no longer there. This.

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Was in back of it, there was one old map that had the word pound on it at one time it there's not.

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Much written about the actual back part of this property at one point in the green leaf maps.

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Indeeds subdivide it into agricultural land, it was, it was a farm in the 1700s.

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uh The stone wall, though, is unique in its scope in scale and height and length for downtown is.

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Probably the only one like it that is still remaining and it does in its construction and.

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Proportions and measurements it does match what were typically built as stone pounds at that time.

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Period at some point it was backfilled. There's there's evidence that it was a freestanding wall.

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On both sides at when it was first built- and I don't know exactly when it was backfilled but.

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It's been a parking lot for a long time and um consequently, the pressure from the earth against.

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That it wasn't built as a retaining wall, but every now and then it starts leaning and it has to be.

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Repaired and you can see uh the repairs over the years and centuries that has been required to keep.

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This wall intact, even as recently as 10 years ago, john wasstrom excavated the back, and they.

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Basically pushed it back into place when doing so. The stones don't fit together, as they did when.

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They lean over so they fill in the new gaps with chinking and new stones and you'll see from the.

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Photos in the packet- it's mostly the old original stones, but there's also a mix of little pieces.

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That were stuck in there's mortar in some places and there are some newer stones which you can see.

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Are of a different type of granite, they're split and drilled they're, not the the same stone as the.

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Original they're different color, different texture, um that's the wall along the street.

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These photos are sequential walking down the sidewalk from west to east so that first photo.

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Is at the driveway that ramps up into the parking lot and then every uh I took three paces for each.

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Photo so that's about nine or ten feet on my stride to get to the end. So all the way down court.

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Street or just close-up photos, so you can see the nature of the stone in the work. That's been done.

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uh There is a side wall that goes perpendicular to court street and it is along the property.

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Line between this property and the temple that is interrupt yep. That starts there and the same you.

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Can see as we go towards the back of the property it um disappears into the hill, it is falling over.

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It's fallen apart at the bottom. There used to be a firehouse down there, so there's a brick.

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Remnants of the brick foundation of firehouse, which are attached to that wall, there's some.

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Brick and concrete in some parts, a tree is growing out of it towards the uphill side.

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um And then it sort of disappears, so that is also proposed to be removed and rebuilt. So it's sound.

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And um the last part on the very very back of the property, almost adjacent to.

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The back of the treadwell house is um yeah that one that is of a bit of a different.

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Nature, it does appear to have some old stones. I brought some close-up photos.

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If you wanna, if you want to look at those, certainly just started.

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um Currently, that's not holding back earth. It may have been at some point the clipper tavern.

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Building is on the other side of it, so it's functioning as a veneer. It's not pretty to.

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Look at like the one on court street: it's very mess. It's built messy, there's, mortar, the stones.

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Aren't as regular and big as the ones on front, it's not a great shape. It's very it's different.

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Quality- I don't know much about the history of that particular portion of the wall, so.

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How far does that back wall go all the way to the property or no it's just it's.

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um Just a little bit to the right of where that photo ends yeah uh and then it transitions to a.

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Modern contemporary retaining wall that was built, probably when the building behind it.

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Was renovated, there's concrete it's um it's, not an old wall. It's a newer wall.

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All right so the the problem, so we had intended to keep this wall and we redesigned the building.

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To do that and then, when we started getting on site to investigate digging the foundations for.

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The building that is set quite behind it. We found more bedrock than we had expected and.

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In fact, some of it is contiguous in effect right underneath this wall, so any excavation removal of.

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The bedrock will cause vibrations which could jeopardize this wall, and we want to protect it.

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We looked at shoring it in place and putting supports on either side, but to do that, there's.

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A few issues which are described in here and we can describe a little bit more- requires.

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Holding the braces together, which would have to go through the wall, because this wall is three foot.

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Deep is three foot uh at the bottom. Is four feet thick. It's two to three feet at the top.

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um You can't just drill through it without piercing stones like the mortar joints, don't.

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Go straight through it's a multi-wife wall, so that would cause some damage. Also, we need to go under.

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It in two locations for street utilities, electric service to the building and the sewer connection.

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There's also no footing there's no frost wall under this wall, which is one of the.

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Reasons it moves over time. We feel it would be more stable if we could put a proper forefoot.

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Frost wall underneath this, so it doesn't move in winter and also to to reinforce the back.

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Structurally, so that when it is backfilled, it doesn't keep leaning over and requiring repair.

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I have a quick question: please, if there's bedrock, how do you get the utilities under there.

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They're drilled, they're cord through the drill and lee can talk a little bit more about that.

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Drilled drilled through bedrock um just one last bit on the excavation of the bedrock behind it.

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The technique won't be blasting they're, trying to minimize the vibrations as much as possible.

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By just using a chipping hammer, but even that will because it's connected it still causes continuous.

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Vibrations, so with that, there are some plans in the back which show the site plan.

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And where this wall is located or these walls where the utilities are located.

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And on the back are some details, but I'm going unless there are any questions right now. I will.

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um Well, let's just see, does anyone else have any questions.

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No, um I have a question. There was a product that I remember from many.

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Years ago, when I was more active in this business and uh it's a product that, after.

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The bedrock has been drilled that it's placed in there and it expands and breaks the rock is that.

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Anything that you're considered, or can anyone speak to that I'll? Let uh bernie speak to that.

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Since we have no other questions from, I just I have a quick question. Okay, certainly do we have.

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A section through the wall and how it's going to be rebuilt, the very last page in this application.

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So bernie will describe the actual process and sequence that we propose to temporarily remove.

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This safely store it and then how it will be put back in a reinforced and safer condition.

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Good evening, mr chairman and members of the commission and planning I'm.

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Bernie lee I'm a chief estimator at severino, which I'm I'm sure you're.

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All familiar with our our company over the 20 years, we worked in the city to answer.

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um The yes to your question using a particular material, that's not of an explosive agent in this.

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Particular site we're going to we're not going to blast anywhere on the site, we're actually going.

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To perforate the entire perimeter of the site, with a six inch on center, uh with a drill to basically.

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Create a perforation similar to a piece of paper that will help relieve vibration to the adjacent.

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Properties then we're going to perforate the ledge at a pattern that we are going to use a mechanical.

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Method, which I'm sure you guys have driven by islington street away, which is a whole ram.

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Which is basically a large jackhammer attached to an excavator? That's how all the bedrock is.

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Going to be, we propose to remove all the bedrock from this property for the proposed construction.

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um Use of those agents is effective when you're not necessarily digging a hole in the ground, but.

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When you have a face that you have relief from so that when you put the agent in the holes, it.

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Will pop the face and relieve it, we might be able to incorporate some of that once we get a hole.

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Started and get down to grade so we can continue to flop the face forward in the excavation. So.

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We're going to explore all those non-explosive options for to get to the to get the grade on.

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The project- I was just thinking that it would be better for your neighbors if you weren't, sitting.

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There chipping away for a month, yeah, unfortunately, the even though using those agents to downsize the.

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Material to be able to load it and take it away, it's still going to be some element of.

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That but yeah we're going to use whatever method we can obviously to make it go fast and painless.

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As possible um to answer the other question, no, we didn't provide a cross-section of what the.

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Ultimate wall will look like, but I can describe it. It would be familiar with like a gravity retaining.

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Wall, it's battered uh will maintain the existing capstones at the top, and then the wall will batter.

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After it's engineered down to a grade sitting on the footing, that is four feet below for frost.

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Protection, so that batter in the in the nature of a wall where all the forces on a wall are on.

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The bottom, which creates the overturning as the wall batter it decreases those forces. So this.

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Wall will be constructed in the period or the era in the front will look more to the period it was.

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Constructed than it does now, because the mortar that's holding it together now will be behind it.

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And the stone will look as if it's dry, stacked and dry laid like it did when it was originally built.

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Which it's kind of lost some of that flare that it used to have in its period behind it? There will be.

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Reinforcing put in the stones that will not be exposed reinforcing and concrete to create that.

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Batter so it becomes a engineered design retaining wall, that's built out of water, rubble, masonry and.

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Concrete, so that's the that's the cross section it would, it would look like it will not be a vertical.

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Wall, yes, sir uh wondering it give me a roundabout how much of the material of the wall is going to.

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Be the stone that's there now and how much of it's going to be modern materials, the stones that are.

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There now any stone that- and there was some of them I could. I could point out on the screen that.

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We recognized as being when they repaired it. If there was a void and some of the stones may have.

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Been lost because the wall was deteriorating, they incorporated probably some fractured lot from rock.

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From a manufacturer from a quarry, those rocks will actually be pulled out that aren't in this era and.

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Used in the back of the wall, all the rocks that were from this era and match the texture which.

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Was either harvested field stones or rocks that were split with wedges and um and dowels?.

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And hammers etc all those will be palletized and reincorporated into the wall, and then we.

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Will acquire and purchase we can purchase, rocks that are from fieldstones or of that same manner.

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Similar is when we put cobbles the cobblestone medians that we put in on islington street. You can.

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Buy those stones that look that era to duplicate it, so we we have incorporated pallets of any loss.

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Of stones that we can't salvage or won't use because they don't match the period will enhance.

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It with rocks that look like that period, similar to cobblestones that we buy new but look old.

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So we're going to buy dated basically weather dated rocks in a pallet form and incorporate.

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Those into the stone, so there won't be sections of old sections of new. You know, won't look like.

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A patch or a quilt of old and new, but the wall that you're the wall is there now.

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Is four feet deep at the base? It's all. I would think period stone mostly yeah and.

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When you're done, that's just going to be a veneer of stone on top of a concrete wall.

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That'll be a, it won't, be just a veneer. The wall will use every ounce of wall, and especially if.

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It was double-sided and if there's stones in the middle of that wall that we can take apart.

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And clean effectively and use for the face all that rock will be reused. Any rocks that.

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Are undesirable or in the wall that won't give a period or era, appearance will be utilized for the.

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Reinforcing and the batter in the back of the wall, foreign, are you asking how deep the face will be.

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I'm wondering what we're buying yeah yeah it's. The wall will still be a mortar rubble.

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Masonry wall, it will not be a concrete wall which you typically see in a building section.

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Where they build a concrete wall with a shelf, and they just put veneer on the.

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Front this will be a modernly reinforced but stone mortar rubble masonry retaining wall.

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I'm just trying to I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm just trying to wrap my head around.

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What's reinforced mean meaning we're in in the core of the wall, which is isn't the core of the.

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Wall stone: are you saying this is two two walls, a foot thick with rubble stone in between well.

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What they probably did if it was a finished face on both sides? Yes, the mortar was the.

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Glue that held it together from the inside with the less desirable angular stone that you can't.

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Get a flat face from in the middle, and then they took the older stones and used that as.

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The veneer similar to if you had a brick wall in front of block and then brick on the inside.

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So all that material is going to get reused, but when they built this brick wall didn't.

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Have mortar so people people didn't have enough cement to plaster their houses? Let.

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Alone, build walls with so then it was dry, stacked and chinked together, and so that's where she was.

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Saying it's not there's not just the front, you don't really know is what you suggest. We don't.

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Know how it's built, but when we excavated the front the front was similar to the back.

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So, which is the front and which is the back? This is the front we excavated on the back. You said.

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When we excavated the front, I'm wondering what that meant. I I apologize. What would have been the.

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Old front in the pound, this is yeah yeah. That's what I was wondering if that's where we're going.

J

Okay, thank you. Thank you, hey anyone else reagan. um What kind of mortar are you proposing to use.

L

Well, the mortar would be in the middle of the wall, but it would be your standard.

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Mortar that you use in masonry, but you're not going to see it right. My concern would be.

C

To use a more historically appropriate mortar, a softer mortar um just because I wouldn't want the.

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Stones to be damaged by a very hard mortar, or if, for some reason this, you always want your.

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Mortar to be the softer um piece, that is the um the sacrificial part of of your wall, and so.

C

um I was just I mean I have a background in conservation. I've always been taught.

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You, when you're working with historic materials, you use a softer mortar.

C

um Okay, so I would leave that to our mason, who is the one who constructed the bridge rehabilitation.

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In plymouth, where that went through a similar cycle of failure, repair failure, repair failure.

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Repair and finally, they took it all apart and say: okay, let's reconstruct this back to the period of.

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When it was built, so they took it all apart and reconstructed it to get rid of the same.

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Situation that we have here so and all those details can certainly be vetted out, but this.

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This gentleman jcb colby, who has done a lot of our hardscapes, done a lot of retaining walls in this.

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City engineering could speak to his qualifications and he's done it all over the state for various.

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Agencies and private um private developers or private entities. He knows this work he's.

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The one that's worked on that bridge for three years to rebuild it rebuild it piece by piece so.

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He he would know what to mix what ratio to mix it with and what kind of mortar to.

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Build this wall, so you don't see it and the glue is that's holding it behind. It is the appropriate.

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Mortar okay, uh yes, martin! So for clarity's sake, when it's done, will you see the mortar in the.

H

Wall face and the outside face. You'll it'll look like a dry stack. Yes, it will but it'll be secure.

H

It'll be structural, so that I couldn't walk up and pull out a stone. Yes, okay, yeah! Yes, you couldn't.

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Yeah good uh anyone, yes margo.

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So originally there was discussion of uh documenting numbering labeling. These stones.

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Removing them storing them, bringing them back and putting them back the way they were before.

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That is not what you're describing correct. That's correct! That is not what I'm describing because.

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Of the intermixing of the non-period stone, we would then be putting those back in place.

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We're still going to photograph it we're still going to document it we're still going to clean.

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Them and we're going to palletize them, but to take it to the next level and make sure everyone goes.

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Exactly back to where it's supposed to now, we've come across a stone which is that dark gray, one.

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In the you know, the center lower right- that is, a piece of ledge that was incorporated into the wall.

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That's not of the period we have to now replace that and because we have, you can see, there's a.

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Lot of smaller stones, small stones and large slabs and smaller stones, and then you can see.

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The more methodical coursing as you get closer to the top with part of the wall was repaired.

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So it doesn't have that um I can't think of the word, but it doesn't have that randomness on how.

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Even if you look at a stone wall was built or a um the the mortar rubble masonry wall and and again.

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This is a little different that we built when we constructed a route one uh near the church, just.

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Before you get to the dinner horn in the brax brad skeller, now that's a true mortar rubble measuring.

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While you see the joints, but part of it, is there's a randomness to how the wall looks. So it looks.

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Like an era that it was constructed, some of the randomness has gone from the the years of repair.

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Now we don't know when it was repaired previous to this past, one in 10 years, but you can tell by.

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That there's just some newer era, methodical stacking that you wouldn't get from that era.

A

um Okay, sir you've, um given your opinion on that, and I think that you have brought.

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Up something that we need to discuss amongst ourselves, so we all understand that this wall.

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As originally proposed was going to be photographed.

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I don't know how they would number it, but somehow it's and stored off-site and brought back and.

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Replaced exactly and now we're hearing that this is going not going to be that it will be rebuilt.

A

um And a lot of the stones will be replaced with older stones, either that they're going to get.

A

From the back of the wall, or that they might have to purchase, so how does everybody feel.

A

About this yes reagan. Well, I have a question about this, and this is, I guess, probably more.

C

For tracy to explain, I guess the the reasoning behind going to this approach rather than.

C

Embracing the total history of this wall, rather than just a restoration of one period, but actually.

C

Embracing and understanding and preserving the full history of the wall, which would.

C

Include modern, uh infill and repairs, and things like that to tell the full story.

A

We'll hit her first, we hadn't considered um putting it back in a non-original state, but.

K

I guess that's something we could certainly consider if that's the directions, the thought.

K

Was to not replicate the modern materials in rebuilding it, but if, if that, if those more modern.

K

Materials are deemed historically important. We can certainly consider using all of the.

K

Material as it is right now, okay, some other opinions, please martin, um it looks like you.

H

You've done your homework and that you've brought in experts to to do this properly.

H

I can I can live with the fact that you're choosing to um build it to a certain period and.

H

I think that I don't see this well as sacred. uh I didn't even know it was there until this.

H

Project so um also, I you know, I think, about other projects and preservation. You know recently, we had.

H

This steeple rebuilt- uh it doesn't get more sacred than that, and so I think it was all for the better.

H

And so I see this too also as as a way of preserving this wall, uh you do have to dis.

H

Disassemble it and I can live with that, so I I will support this effort.

A

Dan well, I'm over here and then I'll get to you guys, I'm sorry! Ideally it would be nice to leave.

E

It be, but it's not like you're, building a little shed or a garage behind it. It's major construction.

E

So so the chances of it being destroyed by the destruction is very high, so how can we save it? Do.

E

We save it as the way it looks today, or do we save it as of the way it looked when it was protecting.

E

The pigs and the cows and everything- and I think, working back that way, makes a lot of sense to me.

E

Okay, yes, david. Thank you very much. Mr chairman. um I've always thought when I looked at this wall.

J

That it, first of all, I've never known what it was. I've never even entertained the notion that it was.

J

A pound, I'm thinking about that. I seen a number of pounds uh they're rarely over three foot tall.

J

Because I think pigs aren't big jumpers is really what it comes down to and this, at least on the.

J

Court street side is quite tall um and not, but to that end I've looked at this wall for a long time.

J

And there's a habit of people laying stone these are probably from durham. uh There looked to me.

J

To be a diorite, uh if you've ever driven on long route, four on your way to durham, you see a whole.

J

Wall of it on one side, the number of outcroppings they were brought here by gundalo, so just up from.

J

Where they were landed, but you typically run courses with this stuff and it is fairly regularly.

J

Coursed, but in the middle there's a huge at least more than one area, there's a some huge stone that.

J

Run across as a course- and it always struck me as odd to be in a situation where I was lifting.

J

Those some of the largest stone I was going to build on a wall or a chimney or the sidewall of.

J

A house way up in the air. You typically want to use them at the bottom, where it's a lot easier.

J

For everybody- and I wonder if combining those two thoughts together makes a a little bit of a story.

J

Line that says that this wall has actually been rehabbed a couple of times and the at some point.

J

In our past, not the dark history of the wall, but in our past someone decided that as a pound, it was.

J

You could get filled in and become some sort of a lot, but it wasn't really tall enough to.

J

Fill in some other part of their area, and so they raised the wall up that last little bit.

J

And that's why we see this incorporation of larger stones that may fit into the story of.

J

Why there's pieces of shale or schist mixed in with the diorite? I think we lose all sense of.

J

That conversation completely when we do pickup sticks with the wall, and I think that this is.

J

A poorly thought out plan that doesn't satisfy my interest in preserving a feature in our community.

A

Interesting story there, david now that you look at it. um There does seem to be somewhere at the.

A

Three or four foot mark a continuous row of large stones. Maybe that was the top of the.

A

Old everything has a story to tell that's for sure margo. Oh I'm, sorry, rich guy. ah Thank you.

G

um So I I do think this wall is very important. I've walked by this wall since I could walk.

G

um But I think the debate here is whether we are trying to preserve history when this wall was.

G

Originally built, or are we trying to preserve all the history? That's happened since then. Until now,.

G

um For me, I include all that history. I, like commissioner adams just said this probably was a.

G

Smaller wall and that logically makes sense that the largest stones wouldn't be used on top and.

G

It's very evident that you can see a big line where it probably was a smaller wall.

G

And then they decided to change the use of that wall, possibly when they infilled it.

G

Possibly before that, but that is part of the history of this wall.

A

Apparently, um all these efforts are to make.

G

So we don't destroy the blocks of this wall. um You know all this effort, whether we.

G

Want to build it the way we did back in 1600 or we want to build it the way it is now and place.

G

It in kind, um but I think these efforts, I think, we're placing it more in kind. I think, keeping that.

G

History is more where I'm leaning like numbering the blocks and actually and they're not going back.

G

And trying to recreate history, that's what you think is the the idea of numbering. Do you think I.

G

Think that preserves the it preserves everything. That's happened to the wall up until today,.

G

um And I mean we can eliminate some of the history because I said give him a call later.

G

You know I mean, maybe people didn't like what they did those years, but that's part of the.

G

History of the good or bad yeah, margot, I'm sorry, I missed you last. No. um I think my concern.

I

Was how you even go about reconstructing something that nobody has any pictures of yeah you you're.

I

Sort of reconstructing the original wall, based on a theory and based on research of other.

I

Walls that can positively be dated um at that time, so you know the ability to say yes, we've.

I

Recreated this wall historically is a little bit tenuous, um and so I tend to lead more towards.

I

The entire history, and- and this I think, is a unique wall. It tells its story whether we've.

I

Interpreted it properly is only the stones know, but it has a unique character to it. It's fabric.

I

Has a pattern that you don't see in any other wall because it is itself it has big.

I

Rocks small rocks long rocks different rocks the wrong rocks whatever you want to call it.

I

um So I'm inclined to support having the ball. The wall retain the character that it has today.

I

The concern I have is: how do you do that? Because there are a lot of pieces that make up the fabric.

I

Of this wall, it's not big blocks, it's easy to number and so on it's a lot of stuff. Maybe it's.

I

Possible to number the big blocks photograph as detailed as tracy has, and you end up with.

I

A fabric that is similar in texture, the pattern just isn't exactly the.

I

Same, I don't know if that's possible yeah and I just second I'm sorry.

F

So I don't apologize for that interruption, but I agree that.

F

By showing the evolution of the wall, then there's a template to work with.

F

And and a goal to try to achieve versus there's a lot and I don't doubt your expertise at all.

F

But I think there's an unknown product at the end, if we don't address it as an evolution.

A

Okay, well uh tracy. It seems that um we have the majority.

A

Of the commission would like to see uh this thing documented and replaced.

A

The way that it stands right now using modern methods behind it and whatever that the the mason.

A

Feels he has to do behind it, it won't look perfect it. We know that, and there are some stones that are.

A

Are not granite, and we know that and there's one brick. What do we feel about that? One brick.

A

I see it in there. Unfortunately, it might have been something that was just stuck in 15 years.

A

Ago, coming back some night from the press room, you know it could happen been there yeah.

A

um So uh that that seems to be the feeling of the board matt, if that is the feeling of the board. Yes,.

A

Would you like to speak again, uh yes thank you, and I did want to point out that you know part of our.

L

Step number three is to document the face of the wall: appearance with pictures and elevations. So.

L

This this we're going to take the utmost care to put it back as much as we can. The the numbering.

L

Which was brought up before what that constrains you into from a structural standpoint? Is you might.

L

Be putting a rock back that really shouldn't go where it should it needs to so by documenting the.

L

Pictures the evolution of the wall that obviously we've heard is the most important is going to go.

L

Back in okay, but as you same as you coarse, the wall and they overlap and the joints overlap if.

L

There's an area where that didn't well, if number 12 is supposed to go with number 13, but it's not.

L

Appropriate it it shouldn't so understand what you're saying. So. That's we're going to document.

L

This thing pictures, elevations and videos, and he literally puts it on the wall as he's building it.

L

In sections and puts the wall back together with the larger rocks, where they were the smaller ones,.

L

Where they were and not using inappropriate rocks where they shouldn't okay, thank you. I I.

A

Understand that there could be some little problem in there that you don't want to replicate and.

A

Never one to tell a craftsman how we should do his job and I'm not going to start now.

A

So um my opinion is the same as you've heard before so with that uh you can have they put.

H

The mortar back, the way you see it now, um I don't think that that is. I mean because.

H

Maybe that's what's holding the wall together, so it's not properly being rebuilt, so laughs.

A

um Mr burke, I would ask somebody with more knowledge of walls. Mr adams, what do you feel.

A

About that mortar, that's on the bottom two feet there, the those stone at the bottom two feet hard.

J

For me to believe that they've ever been moved, yeah and so that mortar is just uh taking the.

J

Place of some uh some shims, uh I I don't think that any of those stones ever exhibit any sort of.

J

Looseness I mean imagine that some of the stones- I'm looking at you, know probably five six hundred.

J

Pounds they would take more than a sidewalk plow to even move one. So I don't think the mortar.

J

Is that important they were trying, no doubt to make the wall look better at some point right up.

J

Against the sidewalk, be my guess, but mr chairman, is this one of those times when we should bring in.

J

Someone who actually does know something about it other than a people with opinions. I wonder.

J

Where we're, where we're headed with this, because I it just seems like there's a nuance here- that's.

J

Going to be that I'm fearful could be easily missed. uh I I know what you're saying, but I do.

A

um Feel that um we have had an expert here from his company and who has masons that have done.

A

This uh work before and um I'm satisfied with what he is saying about actually documenting so.

A

It would look sort of like a blueprint each section of the wall, along with photographs.

A

um So they know how to reconstruct a wall. I don't think it's necessary at this time.

J

Mr chairman, not to continue this just for the point of argument, but in one of the back.

J

Pages of this is a advertising brochure with some pictures of a stone veneer on a bridge.

J

I saw that and and it's this lovely stone that looks like swenson granite from the mid-state.

J

uh It's it's flayed, it's it's sawn, it has joints, it was. It has all square joints and.

J

Was probably when it was installed installed with a cement-based mortar uh originally and.

J

So that they did a wonderful job, putting it back means that they are thorough people and.

J

Can be thorough people and can do technically difficult things, but I don't feel like we've.

J

Gotten that answer from this uh contractor- and I I appreciate your sensibility of his his.

J

Professional status and his his craft history, but but I I just don't- I don't feel it yeah.

A

um I would say I agree with you on this wall that you're showing. Unfortunately, this is a different.

A

Type of wall in this bridge we're looking at the arch of it apparently here and.

A

Obviously, it's it's not appropriate for what we're looking at on our sidewalk in downtown portsmouth.

A

But there again, these stones are all similar and the stones that he has to work with, which.

A

We're requiring him to work with are not similar, they're all different in their own little ways.

A

And that's what makes this wall unique, but there again it's a wall, any other opinions.

A

So I'm going to open this up to the public. Would anybody in the public.

A

A

We do have a member of the public that wanted to have a little show slideshow.

A

But go ahead, not I not! I pitch trace 27 hancock street, mr adams, sir god bless you.

M

um To the rest of you, I do remember that this project was approved, subject to the.

M

Wall remaining, at least at that point, that the major project was approved so now we're at a.

M

Point where it's, what I call smoke and mirrors and mr adams might know what that means, looks pretty.

M

But it's not the wall and I think perhaps what many of us are very very fearful of is.

M

That you have a wall that, when you all talked about it being restored.

M

At different points in time, everybody thought the wall was important enough.

M

To keep it there and to work on it the best they knew how to maintain that history of portsmouth.

M

And yes, we don't know totally. What's behind that wall, we have a certain idea.

M

But there's stuff in the middle of it. But when you start taking apart a puzzle like that.

M

And you don't number every piece to sit there and suggest to the public that the same wall will.

M

Appear at the end of the project is lunacy. It's going to be a bit like the commercial that I'm.

M

Old enough to remember- and many of us are going to end up walking by that wall going where's the beef.

M

There was that nice, big russian woman, who'd walk by it, was a wendy's commercial and.

M

She'd open up the hamburger and go where's the beef all right. Thank you! So it's like now, okay,.

M

So, to give you an idea, to my mind how important the wall is to so many of us, the new book that we.

M

All have and it's fantastic, [music] but I suggest to you all that where they remembered the eagle.

M

On treadwell, this should be a number 102. that it was just an oversight that the wall didn't.

M

Make it into the book yeah yeah, so I ask you all to consider yourselves when you make your decision.

M

How good is anyone at putting back a puzzle and could not the sewer line.

M

Or the utilities be brought in through the driveway that goes up and around the wall.

M

And if there's bedrock and there's too much bedrock, then the issue is the garage.

M

Underneath the structure and how deep are they going to have to go through the bedrock.

M

So I'm glad I'm not in your spots tonight, but I beg you to save one bit of portsmouth's history.

M

That can't speak for itself. Thank you. Thank you very much. I I would like to say without um opening.

A

Up our arguments is that we do have the ability to put this back. As we see it here mind you.

A

In any other city, this wall could be removed and there would be a concrete retaining wall.

A

In any other city, they might put brick veneer on it and maybe a concrete cap on.

A

The top we're not asking for that and I'm sure that this is much more difficult than.

A

What other cities might allow? So now we have miss polydura to please come up. Joy come up to.

N

I'm the one that brought in some handouts and a couple of slides for a presentation. I don't know.

N

If they would give me the indulgence to be able to show it yeah pull this up, would you like to have a.

N

Copies as well is your choice or nick can give you the file I'll take the hard copy. Okay,.

B

This is a good first one. Oh, let me get it up all right. Thank you. Yeah did anyone else.

E

Over here there's a few hands up. Hope you made enough.

E

A

Thank you. It's going green leaf, so this is later [applause].

N

So is this a pointer we're over here I'm kind of deal with this? If you keep the button down.

N

The round button, I think, hold it down yeah.

A

I'll show you.

A

I never use that one before.

D

Oh hold it down.

N

Hi, my name is sue polydora middle street and I'm sort of uh of a historian of different properties.

N

And this is one of the ones that I have focused on just because of the historical value of it.

N

uh As many of you know, that's where george washington stayed when he first came of course.

N

The dwelling before the fire- many many- I can give you a long list of the people that came and stayed.

N

In that property that are very prominent not only in portsmouth history, but in natural history, like.

N

Pierre longfonse designer washington dc and also new york city, he came and won a ship in.

N

1777 and your john lander was living in that house. That was there uh before and he loved.

N

To house people- and he was one of the people that came and stayed there, so this here is the.

N

Map the original map goes back to was something 1800 serving the property before the green leaf.

N

Family sold it to the treadwell family, all right. So if you look closely in this area right here,.

N

You can see uh an area uh close to the wall on this side. It says well.

N

So the well was uh right in back of that house. There would also.

N

A retaining outer wall and um yeah great it expanded, but I just sort of wanted to give.

N

You the idea of where it came from, but the next slide is um a slide that took this map.

N

And super we superimposed the the boundaries or the property, as it is today using gps technology.

B

I'm working on it all right, well he's working on it and I just want to clarify I've heard the term.

N

Several times used tonight that this was a pound held, you know where pigs were held. Actually, this.

N

Was called a place of refuge during the indian wars, there is no way that you will have a place.

N

Of refuge with a four foot wall, uh it was called the castle for the reason the walls were high.

N

Enough that you couldn't penetrate them, so the idea that this was somehow a pound for the city.

N

Doesn't reflect the fact like, let me show you right here. He says garden. This is.

N

The boundaries right now this is the wall on the red and the bottom, and it turns yellow.

N

As it goes up, this line right here is, is another: uh it's a boundary between this part of the garden.

N

And the stables, so within the property, do you have the garden? You have the stables which mentions of.

N

That era had uh for carriages for horses and a place to grow the food that this, the inn would.

N

Consume this was called the brewster genteel inn. There is no way that the widow have allowed.

N

Pigs to be running around next to a genteel inn anymore, that we would have pigs running around the.

N

Sheraton today and it's pretty comparable tonight so to say that that was what it was from those.

N

Days, I kind of doubted- and I think the map kind of speaks for itself. The fact that there are lots.

N

That were available in those in those areas right there. Maybe the town took it over for that purpose.

N

But they were not within the retaining wall, and I graduated a retaining wall in this area right here.

N

Was not manage right because when you look at it it was not preserved.

N

People were careless many years ago, and they did not preserve it right.

N

But this one here is very prominent. Everybody can see it is part of the original structure.

N

So I just brought this in because I just wanted to show you. This is.

N

There is more to it that we have been told tonight, and I realized that you had to take.

N

It down in order to protect it and when it comes back, comes back up. It's not going to be the same.

N

And untorned, because I know what you're up against I know that you have to do something.

N

But I'm also on the side of the history there's so little that is left to preserve.

N

Have you seen that little model that is sits right there? The entrance of this, this hall.

N

Is the old uh state house, because portsmouth used to be the capital of new hampshire in the in.

N

Monarchy days, that's the old state house, the portico of that state house was where george.

N

Washington came and spoke to the people in 1790, 88 or 89 when he came, that structure was removed.

N

Because it needed to make room, it was right across north, the north church right in that intersection.

N

It was removed because we needed to make room for the new. It was put aside to wait until we can do.

N

It do it someplace else, put it someplace else, so we can preserve the old history.

N

That building was cut up in pieces and stored in a container. The container is in concord.

N

New hampshire, I have inquired, there's nothing left other than just rotten wood. Nothing left.

N

Of that structure, that's where the city council met in those days. That was one of the most.

N

Important buildings in portsmouth next to the church, that's where they usually build them.

N

Up so what else are we going to do away with? I don't know, but if I can speak about.

N

Those things I will- and I just hate to give you that information. I don't think this was a pound.

N

In any way, shape or form- and I think the evidence speak for itself, so thank you.

J

This overlay map that you brought us uh is there a date on that map 1800. You can see it right. There.

N

I I looked, I couldn't, but thank you very much it's in there it's it's kind of blurry. You need to just.

N

Kind of blow it up a little bit uh to see all the details of it. That map was given to me by terry.

N

Packard, which is, uh he is the ninth great grandson of thomas packer, who lived and built that house.

N

And lived in that house so that map was given to me by him. Thank you very much. Okay and for.

N

All your research too, thank you so very much for allowing me to do this. Certainly thank you. Next.

O

Excuse me hi, my name is richard nylander, I'm 17 franklin street in portsmouth. I think many of.

O

You know that I'm a preservationist, so it won't come as too much of a surprise that I'm speaking.

O

Against this proposal to temporarily remove and then reconstruct this wall.

O

I think we've uh it's been proven pretty well tonight that it good well date to the early.

O

18Th century, which makes it among one of the oldest build structures surviving in the city.

O

The applicant has provided a very good summary of the various changes the wall has undergone.

O

Over the years- and I would submit that it's precisely those changes. Excuse me because change.

O

Changes over time that should be preserved, they give the wall its current character, a.

O

Unique and distinctive appearance that that a reconstruction can never completely replicate.

O

And while a stated goal of the proposal proposal, excuse me is to quote properly.

O

Restore the historic wall more closely to its original state, but whatever that was, if approved,.

O

And the plan goes through, the wall will never be an old historic, historic wall again.

O

It will only be a newly laid wall made from old salvage stones.

O

Portsmouth prides itself on his on its historic historic heritage, and I think we need to do all.

O

We can to continue to preserve it thanks. Thank you very much, mr nyland. Thank you. Yes, next.

P

Good evening my name is beth margeson and I live at 24 marcy street. I am a member of the.

P

Zoning board of adjustment and this application came before us in november of 2021 and in the.

P

Materials to us it did say that the stonewall was going to be preserved or actually, I think.

P

They called it a granite wall now to be fair. When I look back at the, I guess: certificate.

P

Of approval that the htc issued for this, that was not part of it. I do not know how much of.

P

That assurance suede zba members, it did for me, I don't know if I did for anybody else. It very.

P

Simply was just not part of the application in front of us, but I I rise to speak against. Taking.

P

Down the wall, for all the reasons everybody says it's randomness is its charm. It's not planned. It.

P

Has layers of portsmouth history that wall is an iconic feature of the neighborhood of that corner.

P

And I do not believe that it can be rebuilt in any way that it will be less organic, less authentic. It.

P

Will be sort of you know something sort of faux history? um I I hope that you can leave this real.

P

Historic wall in place, protect it during the um during the construction and preserve it. Thank you.

Q

Good evening my name is susan tannerberg and I live at 44, weibert street. I didn't know much about.

Q

The history of this wall, but I've always thought it was pretty cool when I walked by it, and I'm.

Q

Really concerned that we should honor, celebrate and cherish what we have and the discussion about.

Q

Shall we dismantle this wall and try to recreate it? Somehow that doesn't work for me and I don't.

Q

Think it works for a historic portsmouth, and I know that this board is here to make sure that.

Q

We do preserve what we have in portsmouth and it doesn't all disappear on us. I'd like to remind you.

Q

That there are times when people say they're going to renovate an old building. Let's look at bow.

Q

Street: let's look at the martingale wharf, we're going to renovate that they said and what happened.

Q

It didn't work, it ended up with falling in building a new building. I don't want to see.

Q

That happen to this wall, let's look at the bigger picture of preserving portsmouth and.

Q

Let's make sure that we want to preserve the wall. Maybe there shouldn't be anything built behind it.

Q

I think we need to look at that really carefully, because, if you're going to destroy something.

Q

Because you want to put up something bigger to fill someone's coffers of a developer, then.

Q

I think we ought to look really carefully at that, and I think that that's what your mission is here.

Q

And I would appreciate you considering that we should not tear down this wall and I would.

Q

Respectfully, ask that the developer reconsider what it's doing if they want to tear down a wall.

Q

Just because they want to build another piece here, I was interested to know that there's all.

Q

Sorts of stone that has to be taken out to do that. Maybe that's why no one's built on it before maybe.

Q

We should preserve that as well, and I appreciate you listening. Thank you so much welcome. Thank you.

R

Good evening, commissioners um patricia bagley 213 pleasant street.

R

um I was compelled to speak tonight because commissioner dorenge wanted to hear from the.

R

Public who had said at previous meetings and I'm glad some people are here tonight to speak.

R

um And I am here to speak for the wall and the preservation of the wall.

R

um I'm trying to understand how we got here because it seems it's been rather backwards. A.

R

Year and a half ago um in june of 2021, there was a discussion here um about the wall and architect.

R

Kozak said in response to commissioner ryan: emphatically, we are not taking it down. She further.

R

Stated that while the east side of the wall needed repair, the court side was in good shape.

R

Five months later, in november of 2021, commissioner rudick said that she was thrilled that the wall.

R

Was staying and relieved for the integrity of the wall? Commissioner, ryan motioned for approval with.

R

Seven stipulations and he further said the project would preserve the integrity of the district.

R

Noting that the commission took their position very seriously and that he would not approve.

R

The project, if he felt that it would destroy the character of the historic district, and here we are.

R

So the application originally was built upon the premise that this historic wall was staying.

R

And now we're trying to save it from being damaged. I have a hard time understanding.

R

How a developer of mr mcnabb's caliber could possibly get to this point and not know that.

R

He did not know in 2021 what was ahead of him. He is a well-established builder. He has built.

R

A lot in portsmouth and he has done a fine job, so this is just like coming in a backwards approach.

R

And it's really troubling so now and we by the time we even get to the public hearing tonight, the.

R

Decision seems to be made already that okay, we'll take the wall apart, but what's what's the least.

R

Damaging way we could do this well, maybe we should try to replicate it well. Well, yeah I mean.

R

Commissioner adams, you spoke to it perfectly, I mean the wall on court street does not need.

R

Enhancing it does not need to look like the bridge, that's beautifully done, but that's not.

R

What we have here this this wall is a piece of history. It is unique and prominent and.

R

um We are the citizens of history in portsmouth, and so, while some of you may.

R

Not think it's sacred or that it matters it matters and because it can't speak it matters.

R

Even more that we speak for it, so I feel very strongly about not doing anything to this wall.

R

um If you decide, because this is your job to decide this, it needs to go back together.

R

As well as it possibly can, but it will never be itself, it will never be authentic and the word.

R

Integrity that this commission uses over and over again it will lack that because it will.

R

Never be true to itself, and if you want an expert, and I would agree that it would be it's almost a.

R

Little late in the game, john schnitzler, who has done tremendous work at strawberry bank, can tell.

R

You exactly all about that wall because I have spoken to him. Thank you for listening. Thank you.

S

Good evening I'm duncan mccallum 536 state street. I already made my settlements known about this.

S

Project at last month's meeting, uh uh so you already know how I feel about it in general, I.

S

Don't know how this project ever got this far, but if all that's left is the wall, that's all.

S

I'll speak about what I have to say is: there is only one way that you are going to make to make.

S

This wall, faithful to its history and that's by not letting the developers touch it, don't even.

S

Let them touch a stone. You know when I came down here, uh you know even before miss kozak spoke. I.

S

Of course was against this project and then she said: well, they just discovered they had bedrock.

S

That they weren't aware of underneath the site, how could they not be aware of that at this at.

S

This stage of the game, you know, if I weren't so jaded, I would be shocked, but of course, at this.

S

Point, hardly anything ever surprises me anywhere, but how could you know what kind of investigation.

S

Did they conduct? How could this project ever have gotten this far without them being aware that.

S

There was bedrock and in order to carry out their plans, they were going to have to disturb the wall.

S

Now my crystal ball has been in the repair shop for a long long time, but nonetheless I will make.

S

A prediction: uh if you approve this project, they're going to be coming back here later and.

S

They're going to be asking for additional concessions, they're going to say well, you.

S

Know we encountered some unforeseen circumstances, there's some unforeseen conditions that we weren't.

S

Aware of and they're going to be asking for more concessions. In fact, that's you've seen it happen.

S

Tonight my friend paige trace reminded all of us that when this project was approved, part of the.

S

Terms of the deal was that the wall was to remain undisturbed and already they're backing they're.

S

Back here asking for changes, they're asking for additional concessions, they're asking to implement.

S

A new plan that is not faithful to what the deal originally was, who is going to make them honor.

S

They honor their promises in the future who's going to make them keep up their terms. The deal.

S

Now my friend, commissioner, david adams, was insightful enough to raise the suggestion.

S

That you bring in an expert, you have the authority to do that. If I had my copy of.

S

Peter lachlan's book on landlose on land use law. I would be able to turn to the right page.

S

And cite you this specific statute and provision that says that, but take my word for it. You this.

S

This commission has the authority to hire its own expert and get an independent opinion as to.

S

What's going to happen here and what's going to be involved, if these developers carry out their.

S

Plan and of course, you can shift the fees so that the developers have to pay for it.

S

But as we stand here tonight, I say that we are just not in a position we're not at the stage.

S

Where we can approve this project, and I hope that we will disapprove it. Thank you. Thank you.

T

Good evening, members of the htc peter huda, 280 south street.

T

So I've sit here tonight listening to how this project has gone through all our boards.

T

And the first time it went through all our boards, the wall was staying, it's unique to portsmouth.

T

It holds a lot of history. The patches that came through the years are history, they're, unique.

T

Removing anything will change history and, as you spoke commissioner wyckoff and said,.

T

um If this was in any other city, we'd remove it and it wouldn't matter. This is portsmouth.

T

Our history is very important to us. That's why this board is here.

T

And just even the concept of taking it down and putting it away and even thinking that.

T

You would be authentically creating, it again is unfathomable to me. We we sit here and we listen to.

T

Somebody who's very probably well equipped to do this and we're already inserting different types.

T

Of materials putting different foundations in there, this will change. What was here.

T

How can you deconstruct history and try to put it back together the same way.

T

I don't think you can do it as a resident of portsmouth that that.

T

Appreciates what we have here and I urge you to keep what we have here.

T

Urge them to protect the wall, then I'd like to focus on the the same point that ms bagley made.

T

How could a developer such as this not know what was under the property when they came.

T

They went through all the processes and now they're going to come back.

T

Six months later and say: oh, we found this and it's going to be a problem. We have to.

T

Remove the last historic wall in portsmouth, I urge you to vote this down. Thank you. Thank you.

U

Esther kennedy 41 pickerina, I love the internet. I really do while you guys speaking. I can google.

U

And I really believe in the hearts of hearts of everyone in this room. We want to say this wall.

U

We've heard it in past, you guys have said it, we've heard it tonight and there are ways to do that.

U

Mr adams brought up a good point, bring in an expert.

U

There are ways to put weighted, rocks and weighted things around this wall as you're.

U

Doing something else- and there are other places in the world that do have hccs again, I googled it so.

U

um You know and they put down these barricades, then it kind of engulf this kind of project and.

U

Then they work around it and they protect it. Portsmouth is historical. Everyone knows that.

U

We want to keep our history, I agree. It should be tapped the same way because it tells us a.

U

Story, it tells us a great story of portsmouth, so I ask you: unless nick has the expertise.

U

To put out you have that right, and I know we've done it before when I sat on that committee.

U

Put out ideas on how to do the construction by putting weighted according to the internet,.

U

Again, I love the internet, putting weights on both sides to protect. What's here, so you can.

U

Do all everything you need to do because we want to save this wall and you- and I both know.

U

That if we take it apart piece by piece, it's not going to go back piece by piece. So maybe you don't.

U

Make your decision tonight, but you have someone come in and I think it's a worthy cause to spend.

U

A little money to have someone come in and talk about. How can we preserve this wall and maybe the.

U

City pitches in and maybe the developer pitches in a little bit, but this is important enough to.

U

Do that- and this is what we need to do- we saw the maps that miss palo duro brought forward.

U

So I asked you to take take the time and do it right and I think.

U

There's a way to do it according to the internet. There is a way to do this.

U

um And you know I don't want to see it go like martingale and it's the same developer in both.

U

Situations- and I don't want to see that happen again, so, let's take a moment step back and have.

U

Nick and the city come up with some experts that can really give us an idea of how do we protect.

U

This wall keep it the way. It'll save the developer, a lot of money, because I can't imagine marking.

U

Every stone taking it away and putting every stone back. I can't imagine how much that's going to cost.

U

And so I would encourage us to do that and, like I and I'm sure, a bunch of us will be will also be.

U

Taking pictures of the wall now and making sure it goes back the way it came so I would encourage you.

U

To do that, thank you. Thank you esther. I just would like to just take a brief moment to say I'm new. I.

F

Don't vote at this point, but I have to ask: why are we here we're supposed to be the vanguard in this.

F

Effort, and rather than have the public, come to us the experts and tell us why this is wrong-headed.

F

To continue the military analogy, because this is a battle really to preserve our history,.

F

They're encouraging us to come up as the rear guard, but we're supposed to be the vanguard in.

F

This historic, unique city with a one-of-a-kind structure and that's all I need to say right now.

A

Well, thank you very much next time. I would hope that you.

A

I don't know, raise your hand or something you know. Well I to raise my hand. Okay, um yes,.

V

Good evening rick beck said, 1395 is an industry and I I didn't come down here till I actually.

V

Came to pay my property taxes and knew that there was a meeting coming and it's right. There uh been.

V

In the trades for over 30 years, since I was 13 or 14 years old, I learned how to reglaze windows.

V

And paint because my father didn't like to do either. I have been on many projects all over.

V

Portsmouth, all over the seacoast area restored some very fine homes. This is one that it has.

V

Taken down, it can't be rebuilt the way that it is it's absolutely virtually impossible. Almost.

V

As possible as I've seen in the past, where we've taken down a chimney to try and reuse the brick.

V

You can't reuse the brick uh there's cracks in in deficiencies that are within what you.

V

See below and what you see on top it'll never be replaced again, and it should not the the developer.

V

The owner of the property knew the restraints of this project of the property itself right from.

V

The very beginning- and it was never brought up to you as far as the wall, because I don't think he.

V

Would have gotten approvals on that if it also included taking the wall, so it was broken up.

V

Into two: that's something that really kind of is looked down upon by a lot of people. So I'm going.

V

To leave it at that, and I know that you'll make the right decision. Thank you. Thank you very much.

A

So I'm going to close this map. Okay, let me see if anyone's online anybody online.

B

Yep, someone has their hand up uh barbara jenny. Do you want to speak.

B

Barbara, yes, yes, I do. Thank you. I mean really ditto ditto ditto ditto um uh for every thing.

W

People just said I I I'm thinking of this old um new yorker cartoon. I wish I could share, find it.

W

And share my screen um where there's like a father and a son bent over a tree stump a huge tree, stump.

W

And in the background, is this huge glorious filled tree and the father is saying to the son but look.

W

Look, this is when right, this war happened and when this storm happened and isn't that so cool.

W

um Right and the humor is that the irony is that it just fell to this huge tree to see the history.

W

um So I too feel cynical that um you know this is a developer coming back.

W

Knowing what was in store- and in fact, um you know, was part of conversations where it was.

W

Discussed that parts of the wall had to come down to make it easier to get equipment in.

W

um And certainly anything can be done. Anything is possible in terms of preserving.

W

That wall, it just costs more money, and so I hope the committee will choose on the.

W

Side of preserving that wall and putting the developer in the position of having to decide.

W

You know if, if they move forward or not versus the city, caving and saying okay move the wall to make.

W

Because that's happened time and again and I hope we don't fall for that again.

B

Thanks barbara peter whalen, can you hear me.

B

Peter, yes, I can hear you okay, you're up yeah, thanks uh uh nick and um in the historic district.

X

Commission just a couple things: my name is peter whale and I live at 100 gate street.

X

um My house was built in 1740 when I walk up town. I walk by that wall. All the time.

X

And I look at it as you're, removing one of the historic structures in portsmouth you're, allowing.

X

This developer to essentially take that wall down one of the earliest walls in portsmouth.

X

And try to reconstruct it. What scared me was the contractor, severino saying.

X

This will be an engineered designed wall, which means it's going to be a full wall.

X

That wall should never be taken down. Never it shouldn't be touched. It should be preserved.

X

This is why we have an historic district commission in portsmouth.

X

This is your job to preserve the integrity of the district and I'd urge you not to allow the.

X

Developer to touch that wall, let's preserve it. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks peter anyone else.

B

No, no one else, sorry, okay! So I'm going to close this public hearing and what's in front of us, is.

A

The removal of this wall.

A

For the construction, I might add that um everything that the public said concerning the.

A

Fact that it um was in our it was in the past that they said they were going to preserve the wall and.

A

That we all had mentioned the wall in the past. That is all true, and I would like to ask before.

A

We have our discussions and I think we we need to discuss this. I would like to ask.

A

Tracy, if that, how did they come? What is the decision to get to this because last week it was.

A

You took the wall out or last month you took the wall out of our motion, and um so here it is.

A

Why, yes, so we've we've been working and struggling and pulling this off and postponing it for several.

K

Months now, because we want to save the wall and we're trying everything we do to find the.

K

Best way to do that without damaging the wall and and protecting it as best we can, we've looked at.

K

This in 10 different ways and we've looked at keeping it in place during construction. We've.

K

Looked at numbering it we've looked at restoring it to the original condition we are presenting.

K

We've talked tonight about restoring it to its present day condition. We've talked about how.

K

It in its current state, it continues to move and every few years you have to fix it. So, even if you.

K

Think you're preserving what's here now today it's going to look different in 20 or 50 years.

K

As it continues to fall over and be pushed back fall over pushback new stones, it's an.

K

Evolving living changing thing, which might be okay, but um our thought was to restore it, not.

K

Just continue its evolution into the future, but to respect the original history of the wall.

K

We we've we've looked at numbering, it, we've looked at bracing it and it seems that this is the safest.

K

Way that can ensure that the stones don't get damaged, if you brace it, it will damage some stones.

K

If you leave it in place, there's a chance, it could fall when it falls. The stones could be damaged. If.

K

We can protect the stones against chips, fractures and cracks. I I think that is a more secure way to.

K

Preserve the materials in the wall, so that's what we're trying to do is not damage it. Thank.

I

You very much, may I ask a clarification tracy, um as I understand one of the reasons that the.

I

Wall has pushed out and fallen over and had to be repaired is because there's all that dirt behind.

I

It now you're excavating so that this is going to be more of a freestanding wall. So would that not.

I

Mitigate that issue, it would be backfilled again. The idea is not to create an alleyway back there.

K

um It there's a the new building, is set back yards behind it, but there's a drainage system behind it.

K

There's on-site storm drain basin behind it in one place, which is required by planning board.

K

Intact to address storm water on site, we can't move it off-site as it goes now. So there's a lot.

K

Of engineering behind the wall, but but mostly by creating basically we'd rebuild the wall. But.

K

Behind it behind the wall that's rebuilt, there would be another wall which is actually concrete.

K

And holding back the earth this wall would no longer have to do what it cannot do today.

K

By by doing that, if, if you don't put a reinforced structural wall behind it, it's going to keep.

K

Tipping over, but you could do that a one-sided, concrete wall could be poured behind this thing.

A

And, and also if you put even crushed stone behind the wall, that would alleviate the fact.

A

That right now you've got soil, and that is that is against the wall. And it's only a foot deep or.

A

Two feet deep, so the frost gets to it, expands contracts pushes against the wall and all that.

A

If you had something else behind this wall, you could mitigate that problem. We all know that can.

K

Happen, I don't think we're building a reinforced concrete poured well we're reinforcing the back.

K

With a mortar and then in the detail on the last drawing there are, there is loose gravel behind.

K

That, and that is the the batter that bernie spoke of at that pitched angle, uh but you're.

K

Correct because it's loose gravel behind it, you don't get the water yeah that sits in right out.

A

Okay, so I guess um I'm I'm looking uh for a motion at least for discussion purposes. Would somebody.

A

Want to get the ball rolling of how they feel this should go. Why don't we discuss before we.

H

Go to motion okay, um I would just say that everyone wants to keep the wall and preserve.

H

The wall, no one wants the wall to go to go away. That's fact, number one, but who's being.

H

More responsible, is it responsible to just say, leave it don't touch it? I don't think it is.

H

It's I think, you're doing more harm by by taking the strategy of just leaving it alone, because.

H

It's leaning outward it's going to fall and you know to say.

H

To say it well, just leave it be, and let it let it uh be the way it is. It's just irresponsible. It's.

H

It's uh it's: it's loving this wall to death and that's that's wrong. So you know I'll. Let others.

H

Speak to it, I just think it's being responsible to to rebuild it and rebuild it properly. So that's my.

H

That's my take so um on this side, david and margot apparently are for not touching the.

A

Walls can I do story time just for I'll try to keep it as brief as possible. Sorry, no years ago,.

J

Back when we had donkeys and stone tools, um I remember we. I just did a project in the house.

J

In cambridge, the house very very old, had three significant additions built to this house during.

J

The time of fireplace heating give you some idea each time they added on to the house. They had.

J

To put a new chimney in the new room and it kept going it by the time I got there. The chimney made.

J

Of three possibly four different kinds of brick, with three, possibly four different kinds of mortar.

J

Having all been laid up at different times, having the chimneys that were there, sagging and leaning.

J

And twisting we we took almost 2 000 brick off the top of this chimney recorded every single one.

J

And clean them all and put them all back together with epoxy and reconstructed the thing it was hard.

J

It was, it was hard did it. I mean me and a bunch of people that were very careful and conscientious.

J

And focused like a bastard and and we did it, it was hard. I think we accomplished what was.

J

What was there to be done? I don't think we harmed the integrity of the chimney builder.

J

Sequences and all of those things that we've been brushing on, but it's hard, it's really hard. I I.

J

The nice thing about brick, is you don't have to wonder if they were up on end or anything.

J

They're all laid up like a brick, so that part was simple, doesn't compare to stone.

J

um Anyway, this is hard it's hard to imagine. Someone can handle this wall and not significantly.

J

Change it I'm not saying I'm a hero, but it's just hard to imagine someone tackling this whole wall.

J

The way that I tackled in a 2 000, brick on the top of a chimney. So I'm not really a big fan.

J

I believe it's possible that in itself is a huge burden to put the developer on.

J

But I really believe that the answer to this question lies between the developer.

J

And in a a convincing expert that can design a program that they can live with,.

F

Mr wyckoff, may I speak um the the decision wasn't irresponsible when it was made to keep the wall.

F

And now suddenly it's martin you're saying it's irresponsible and I respectfully disagree.

F

um Unforeseen circumstances, perhaps not a thorough enough side valuation. I don't know why we're here.

F

But it's not irresponsible. At this point, I think it's responsible to find a third independent party.

F

Speak on behalf of the wall that can't speak for itself. What happens when that expert says you got.

H

To rebuild the wall properly? Well, there are other alternatives. You know, maybe it's time to scale.

F

Back the building plans we're not arguing that reagan. Well, I I agree um with everything that has.

C

Been argued, I'm it's it's difficult. I think we can all see both sides of this and we're all trying to.

C

Figure out what is the best past path forward, and um I agree with mr adams that I think this can be.

C

Done and if it is done properly, it's going to be really really hard. um I think that probably it.

C

Is a good idea to bring in someone else just just so that we have that we've done that before we've.

C

Done that, with the times building to make sure that we're making the right decision by having.

C

Several experts- I don't know if john wasstrom, who has worked on it before- would be great john.

C

Schnitzler, I don't, I don't know who it is, but um you know we have to weigh the integrity of the of.

C

The wall and keeping it so that it it preserves its history and it preserves its story, and it.

C

Preserves its look and the patina that it has on it and all of these things. But at the same.

C

Time making the right decision that is going to leave it there for a long time in the future.

C

And it may be that you know, I would pardon me, is very lean very much leaning towards can't. We just.

C

uh Hold it in place really really well, and I know that I trust that tracy and her team has really.

C

Looked into that to try and figure out if that can be done, but at the same time, if that is going to.

C

Introduce more weakness and more instability and be a riskier um option than to strengthening it.

C

Properly so that it will last another 300 years, let's let's make, let's get all the information.

C

We have so that we can make the smart decision. Neither one is going to be perfect. It's just not.

A

Okay, so it sounds like we have um not a majority. Almost a majority of.

A

Commissioners um would like to have somebody else's opinion on this wall and um I'm thinking.

A

That's what I'm hearing, and so uh I would uh say that we should postpone this until the city can.

A

Hire somebody to come in and give their opinion on what to do with this wall myself. I would prefer.

A

To see forms set up on the sidewalk, I know you can drill through. I know that when you get to the.

A

Inside yes, your drill bit is going to hit a stone and you're going to make a hole in that stone.

A

I don't care about that. I'm not particularly romantic when it comes to every piece of this.

A

Wall, but I know it can be done and that this wall can be. You know after the forms are, are.

A

Up surrounding this thing, it can be back filled on the inside, with sand or or something that's.

A

Going to go in and take up every little groove that's in these stones and it's got a good chance.

A

Of making it, and if there is some damage, then it has to be repaired. But having said that, a.

A

Lot of people want a third opinion, and so I think that that's the way that we should go.

J

So move, mr chairman. Second, what's that oh nick, I forgot about him, does it make sense to require a.

B

Qualified third party reviewer to be retained to review the application material, the scope.

B

Of work and assess the wall, if the applicant chooses to not reevaluate doing the same, what.

B

You're suggesting which is leave it in place shore up the wall. Clearly, it's one of the 10.

B

Things they've looked at and not have a third party reviewer if in fact the applicant first.

B

Has an opportunity to go back and re-evaluate not dismantling the wall, but leaving it in place.

B

We'd save ourselves the time effort and and their money in having a third party reviewer. If the goal.

B

Of the third party reviewer is, is to potentially come up with a solution to leave the wall in place.

B

Give them a chance, uh it's sitting right here, right now! Well, yeah! So does that make.

B

Sense what I'm saying whether they answer it here right now or they we, it just seems like.

B

It's worth giving them an opportunity to think about it, whether it's an interesting, oh she's,.

I

May I man make an opinion on this, so um I think that the I'm not an engineer, but it sounds like.

I

This is a tricky thing to do. Yes, and uh I think it would be in the commission's best interest.

I

And valuable to the applicant to have somebody else with a with a different point of view, with.

I

A neutral point of view and and expertise to make a recommendation that perhaps hasn't been thought.

I

About or to second, the recommendation that the applicants expert is making, because I think we all.

I

Agree that the way in which we'd like the wall to agree, look when this is all done. But I think the.

I

Risk of the whole thing tumbling down and becoming damaged is very high, and I think we should do.

I

Everything we can to avoid that possibility and a third person with a different point of view and.

I

With particular expertise could be a value both to us and to the applicant okay. So uh actually.

A

We've had a motion to that. Well, I'll, withdraw my motion. If we'll withdraw you second, yes, I'm sorry.

K

All right: well, we we've been. The team has talked with experts for months on this.

K

um I know you haven't and you don't have that benefit. uh We would, in light of the concerns and.

K

um uh Objections we would like to proceed with keeping the wall in place as it is.

K

And we'll brace it on either side as best we can and um proceed with a vote.

A

That's a decision, that's their decision. Do we actually need it? So one just the point.

B

Of order, I'm not sure we need a vote uh if that was the original approval.

B

And so that's one question that I'm not answering it, I'm just throwing it out.

A

There yeah that's the way it was a year ago. The second piece to my question is.

B

If it may make sense to have that uh scope of work for the shoring.

B

To find, given everything, that's happened here prior to a vote on the so-called shoring plan.

A

But sure that we're capable I'm not sure we're capable of of looking at a shoring plan and.

A

Making decisions about it? Well, you were asked today to make a decision about a dismantling.

B

And reconstruction plan so yeah they have a right to ask and you've got to make a decision.

A

That they would have their engineers who are qualified and would give stamped plans for.

A

um Shoring of this wall, and there again, if there was a section that did loosen up or collapse,.

A

God forbid, but you know they're going to have to repair it. You know they're going to have to put it.

A

Back the way, it was that's just the way it is so um I'm thinking that actually tracy's suggestion.

A

Is the best I'm thinking and I probably shouldn't make that opinion.

A

Feel right, I think I think I think plan is crucial. I would like to have somebody else. Look at it.

I

Okay, we have a building department. All right, let me uh let me just explain the way these things go.

A

They have plans yeah, please, please don't lecture to me. No, I'm not! Okay! I'm not um you've made the.

A

Suggestion I want to answer it, I'm not lecturing you. um The engineer would stamp his plans.

A

For shoring up this wall, the building inspector would look at it he's qualified to look at plans.

A

Like that, I just don't think that any of us are qualified to look at it and I'm also.

A

Thinking that there's a difference between a mason that is qualified in rebuilding.

A

This thing and somebody that could put forms around it that would protect it.

A

That's not unusual mason's job.

A

I guess at this point I think, we're getting into territory.

H

We just we don't know exactly and, and you know what, if what, if we took down.

H

The half of the wall, the top part of the half the wall, that's very unstable,.

H

And restored that and left the portion that is mortared would that satisfy some people here.

D

Would that satisfy some people so that we could do the right thing by this wall? If you care about.

H

The wall you want to do the right thing by it, not just leave it alone. It's it's, it's not a museum.

H

Piece so you know well there there are going to be museums, there are going to be situations and and.

C

Moments especially if they're having to go underneath this wall for utilities, where.

C

They may have to dismantle parts of it and I would want them to be able to come back to us.

C

To explain that, because I don't want the potential of this wall collapsing, where they're digging.

C

Under it and blasting under it and everything, so I think that again, this is it's just not simple and.

C

Straightforward, but I think that the plan that they have if we can number the facing stones if.

C

This is has to be done in certain parts. um I want them to be able to have to come to us rather than.

C

Risking the entire wall collapsing at some point, if that's the right thing and and I would be happy.

C

To to have the information that they have come up with from their experts if you've talked to.

C

A bunch of experts, like you said we haven't, had the benefit of seeing any of that information. So.

C

um If that you know could have been could be presented to us at some point in the future.

C

um I don't know I'm worried, I'm I'm worried about the either direction we take. There are worries. Can.

C

I say one more thing, sir. Thank you. I mean it seems obvious. This is a very historically significant.

B

Historic resource for portsmouth, and it also seems clear- the applicant has made an argument that it.

B

Cannot reasonably remain in place, that's why we have an application to remove it.

B

So, given the turn of events here and the proposal to simply shore it and get a vote and move on.

B

It it's, it seems to me as an opinion of an outsider, you need to see the shoring plan and then.

B

You need to decide whether you need it reviewed. You don't need someone to create the sharing.

B

Plan, I don't think, give them a chance to produce it and then determine whether it's adequate and.

B

What the terms and conditions will be if there are failures during construction, that should.

B

Be ironed out, I mean the times. Building we're not we're not building inspectors, we're not structural.

B

Engineers and this commission didn't allow the times building to be torn down just because.

B

Six structural engineers that were hired by the applicant produced a two-page document saying.

B

The building should be removed because it's structurally deficient, we hired a third party.

B

Person, but I think I think it's premature- to hire a third party person to give the applicant.

B

An opportunity to to submit, as they did here, a detailed dismantling and reconstruction plan.

B

There should be something given how we got here and where we started a year and a half.

B

Ago, I don't think it's going to take them a lot of time and then you can decide as a commission.

B

Whether you want to have it reviewed, I I it's just my two cents but um and it's it's my opinion that.

A

What tracy was just saying is what was approved to keep the wall. That's what was approved. That was.

A

The stipulations in the past- and that was before you were told- the wall has no value as standing.

B

Because of all these new founded construction uh problems of utilities, so there's new information.

B

That's being discovered by the applicant, the utility that was not presented to us, uh because it.

B

Was unknown at the time that conversation occurred, so I I think, given everything that's happened,.

B

In the to be cautious and make sure we're doing the right thing or you're doing the.

B

Right thing for that wall there's no harm in asking for the shoring plan.

B

And then reviewing it, certainly no, it shouldn't take long. I agree I mean um I think that would.

K

Be appropriate and it's not unlike asking for a mock-up of or we could even do a mock-up of.

K

The shoring, perhaps as well as the shoring shop, drawings and plans, I do want to just make sure.

K

And reiterate what we talked about, um which is entailed inherent to shoring up the wall.

K

Is that there may be stones in the middle of the wall, which you can't see that get broken.

K

um You won't see them but they're there and um and then also as if it is found when the.

K

Wall is shored up if it is found that, for some reason there is severe risk of the of the wall.

K

Falling down, even though it's been shored up and braced and protected in every way, if it.

K

Is found that it seems to be um exhibiting stress which could damage the stones. We would like, as a.

K

Plan b after those efforts have been taken to be able to remove that portion of the wall, which is.

K

Exhibiting risk and take it down carefully and and reconstruct it after we've attempted to do.

K

The shoring in place just as a backup, if, if it is needed to protect it, I think all that needs to be.

B

In the shoring plan, so it's written down what the protocol is. Should you have a failure and.

B

And a yeah right and- and there again I realized that the that doing this is is dangerous. I I.

A

Realize this fully, you know a wall like that, even though it's only six feet tall, seven feet tall.

A

A collapse would be unbelievable, um so I I think that we need emotion than to essentially say.

A

What nick was saying that we go with the plan of keeping the wall and asking for the shoring plan.

A

We're gonna continue it yes, right to a month february, good or two months.

K

What we're requesting is that you vote for us to shore the wall contingent on receiving.

K

um A shoring plan similar to getting a mock-up before building a new brick building.

K

Okay, not to postpone okay, okay,.

J

Yes, mr clear and chairman to clarify: does this also include the demolition of the other wall on the property, the yeah.

A

Now that we're talking about that other wall next to the clipper right, is that.

B

What the one! Yes! That wall is not on this, the back portion, yeah.

A

What were you talking about that? You mentioned it? This is the very back wall next to the clipper.

K

Tavern is um was suggested to be harvested suggested that that would be removed. The new.

K

Building is being built about 18 inches away from it at that point, and it would just make.

K

Construction easier, um it's a very different situation. uh It's not, it won't be visible.

K

um At all, it's going to be uh the the new building has drainage, and it's right up. There.

K

um We could probably work around it if, if need be, but you won't be able.

K

To see it either way and it makes construction really difficult so.

K

um There was a note in there about harvesting some old stones from that wall to replace the modern.

K

Stones on the front, but we've decided we liked the modern stones, so we won't be doing that. Okay,.

V

Mr wyckoff, why was this wall not addressed previously? If I may ask.

A

It was presented and accepted as that it would come down.

C

Yes, um I will I'll move that we um accept the the new proposal that they keep the wall in place.

C

um And we will review a shoring plan that will give a detailed information about how they plan.

C

To shore the wall up and also detailed information about a plan b, if there are any at-risk portions.

C

Of the wall, or if there is a collapse or loss in any in any area how they are going to address.

C

That situation are you doing that under at least an administrative approval? How do we review a.

B

Shoring plan otherwise yeah, I guess so I guess it would be in a business that was my question. Is.

I

Are we we're not approving work until we approve the shoring plan? um Well, the shoring plan would.

C

Be like, like we approve a mock-up, so that would be an administrative approval um by us, because.

C

um Otherwise, it's not a public hearing of any sort, but that's that's generally how what we would do.

I

Okay, so if we so if we see the mock-up of the shoring plan- and we are not having an expert.

I

Help us with this and we don't like it for some reason. Then we and we say no, then what we could.

C

Vote against the approval of it, and it wouldn't be this approval tonight would not be able to.

B

Be executed right would it be possible to look, have have someone look at this shoring plan? First,.

A

Before they cut before, we approve or disapprove at as an administrative approval,.

B

Not without a vote tonight, that's for sure you've got to authorize the third party review.

B

Before you do it, and I'd have to find somebody, and probably it would be better if you approve.

B

The person we find because there may be more than one- I don't necessarily necessarily see the need.

C

To have a third party expert for a shoring plan, because we've established that severino is a well.

C

Expertised uh yeah, I'm sure they know what they've done.

B

um Which was kind of what I was suggesting. I know it's nice to get what it appears outwardly.

B

To be a definitive decision, but if there's a hanging chad that needs an administrative.

B

Approval in order to make that uh eligible for a building permit, I'm not sure it's the right way.

B

To do it versus just get the sharing plan and vote on the application before you then have.

B

A two-step process, where the second step could still invalidate the first one, if you weren't.

B

Comfortable with the admin approval, so I'm not sure it it's any better for the applicant.

J

We've dug ourselves a hole.

B

I mean six and one half dozen, the other. The difference is the admin approval gives the.

B

Applicant, the understanding there may be on third base and it gives the public the position where.

B

They're no longer in the game, because there's no public comment for those where at least, if.

B

It's continued, everybody has a chance to say something and make one decision, and you have.

B

A shoring plan in front of you and you decide, then, if you want someone else to look at it or not, but.

B

I wouldn't do that before you see the plan and feel how you feel about the applicant's proposal.

B

But again, two cents from me: yeah we still four cents yeah so I'll make a motion that we postpone.

I

Okay, I don't know if anybody wants to say. Can you repeat the moment yeah, that's repeated that uh we.

C

Approve the updated proposal to shore up the wall, keep it in place.

C

um Contingent on an approval, an administrative approval for the shoring plan and the backup plan.

C

For what to do in case of disaster, a second that it's very good.

C

And the people vote that motion down, they can go for a difference. Okay, so um we have a motion on.

A

The floor and we have a lot of different opinions, but we're going to vote on this motion. So all.

A

Those in favor say aye, aye, chair votes, I against say nay, I'm saying against, because I don't think.

I

An administrative approval is the right way to follow up on this one against so, did you hear that.

A

Be careful, thank you. Please be careful.

C

E

Oops, oh perhaps, of an ipad here, got a crap. That was a couple.

H

Always keep s a lot. Yeah hope she wants her little thumb drive. Oh I'm sorry.

A

Only a couple dollars thanks sue. Thank you very much for your work. Just you're welcome.

A

Thank you chair. I could use a short break if I don't know if anyone else, okay, um so we've had.

A

uh We want to take a break we'll be back in two hours there yeah, I gotta, take some pills.

G

She gave everyone that, like genuine reaction when she opened up her presence.

G

Good, oh, my goodness, all righty we're back so we are now. Let me raise that.

A

Okay, this is a work session, public hearing. We don't have a table set up so.

A

Requested by one reigns, have llc: 31 reigns, llc and 203 maplewood avenue, llc owners for property.

A

Located at one marines at 31 rains, ave and 203 maplewood avenue, wherein permission is requested.

A

To allow the construction of a five-story mixed-use building and a five-story hotel.

A

As per plans on file in the planning department, said, properties are shown on assessor map 123 lot.

A

14 map 123 lot 13 and map 123 lot. 12 lie within the character district, 4 and historic district.

Y

Good evening, carla goodnight from cj architects, I'm here with evan tormy from xss.

Y

um We are on the agenda as work session public hearing, so uh would we like to.

Y

Have some discussion in the work session first and then move on to the approval.

Y

Formally or how would you like to proceed, I think that that would make sense that.

A

um Okay, work session, apparently you've given us a couple choices: correct.

A

Oh, where do you want to start? Okay? um When we last met, um we had some very in-depth discussion.

Y

Regarding the liner building on maplewood avenue, the three-story uh piece and there seemed to be.

Y

Consensus among everyone that the making it look like a somewhat different building and essentially.

Y

I think, as you can see from the renderings we've really taken it to another level of development.

Y

Developing the details, developing some of the expressions of of you know, window patterns and.

Y

So forth kind of making everything more cohesive, so what we were stuck on was whether or not it.

Y

Should kind of have a much more uh kind of a cleaner, more modern look and have a projecting.

Y

Balcony on the corner, or whether or not it should be more of a flush representation, as you see on.

Y

1.0 a so starting with 1.0 a we're looking at the flush execution of the balcony here.

Y

um What am I doing? Nick it's not lighting up there. We go this flush balcony.

Y

And then looking at 1.0 b.

Y

We have a more prominent darker color and we've projected the balcony uh and.

Y

Wrapped it more entirely around here um when you look at 1.1 a.

Y

That again, is the uh reset or the more flush balcony look and when you look at.

Y

1.1 b we have the projected balcony cornice with the more black finish.

Y

um We've also represented uh 1.2, showing the darker cornice and the gray cornice on 1.2 b.

Y

So there's not a whole lot of difference. There wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait and on 1.3 again.

Y

Just showing the balcony projection all the way to the right to give you an idea of what it would.

Y

Look like from that perspective, you're sliding right through this. huh Well, I'm going right. I.

A

Have a couple questions so I understand that is the end of my choice. That's it yeah to whisper.

A

Does anybody have any questions concerning the initial one point, a or one point b.

A

Do we all see the differences.

A

Anybody have anything it's most uh prominently represented in.

Y

The first two images 1.0 the o series. Instead of what we have any opinions.

A

Does anyone have an opinion rich you've been oddly quiet, yeah, um the cornice and the balcony, um I'd.

G

I think I'm preferring the more flush balcony. I think it just is a softer.

G

Feel but I'm not against the other projected balcony other. um I kind of like that. Cornice.

G

You know either either way I think you've done a good job of stepping down, so it steps down in the.

G

Neighborhood nicely I'm happy with that, especially the rounded edges and making it look like you said.

G

A different building, that's just connected, um but those are my two cents, any other sense.

A

Reagan, well, I I agree, I think, partially, because I feel like you've.

C

You've just done a more third job of articulating a then b in your renderings.

C

um I don't know how you're going to get that that smooth looks like a metal finish bond finish. Okay,.

C

um It doesn't seem to that that design and detail doesn't really seem to mesh with.

C

Building in general, so I think the simplified and more flush a version is more attractive.

K

Okay, martin, I would just simply say that either one of those either one.

H

Of these are acceptable in terms of what we should be looking at so um either one.

J

Nope, yes, mr chairman, I've, I would agree with mr ryan. It.

J

It they both have they're two different sizes of the same coin. I think the pieces.

J

And parts are very much one gives you more of a horizontal feel to it. The other.

J

Is really reinforces the vertical nature by breaking that balcony, up with the flush model.

J

um And, and I think that's almost always martin is correct- um god bless you uh yeah.

J

Can I just say I wonder if it's it's probably way past time to have this, but over the christmas.

J

Break I've been thinking about this building and where this is headed and how poorly equipped I am.

J

To even make any assessment about it, but I keep wondering over the course of the christmas break.

J

Why this building doesn't have a side that faces the water? If I were building something with this.

J

Much coin and this depth of plan why it doesn't look at the water at all. I and- and I remember.

J

Reminded of the uh the first building, I think that she showed us back god. 20 years ago, uh was.

J

Something somewhere in baltimore or something some piece that you'd pick up a little bit of.

J

Eye candy that you'd picked up. It was a striking building, but what was interesting about it? It was.

J

That we really weren't looking at one end of it from a side street uh that it was a view that the.

J

Building had and this building has a street presence, which is maplewood 40 miles an hour.

J

And a street presence, which is vaughn, uh which I don't think anyone in town even knows where.

J

It is, it's got the the water and this doesn't even look at the water. My thoughts, thank you.

A

Before we go on dan, would you like to make any comments.

E

um I I would go more with the flush balconies, but I think it'd go either way.

A

Okay joanna, do you have any opinions.

F

I do the I like, I think it was d and that's not a choice. So the other two as david said.

F

Are sort of like two sides of the same coin- the one I really liked is no longer an option. Oh.

A

Okay, um yeah: I want to keep going and see what else we can find. um I I guess I would say that.

Y

um You know the the focus of our design. Developments were primarily uh focused on.

Y

Bringing that uh you know liner building into you, know a more completed more cohesive piece that.

Y

um Because I think last time we offered multiple choices there, so so there's no other changes not.

Y

Really I kept looking around the building trying to figure out what else is different, and I.

A

Couldn't well in the last session we implemented quite a few changes on the mixed-use building.

Y

With projecting balconies and adding some uh different entry elements and canopies and so.

Y

Forth so we had we had we made the siding darker and changed a little bit of the window pattern.

Y

um So there were quite a few uh updates from the last round to the the other building.

Y

Did some work on the cornice um and I think everybody seemed uh relatively satisfied with.

Y

um The change with the significant amount of changes from our last work session on the body.

Y

Of the building on the the four-story and three-story pieces of the building.

Y

The hotel, uh the hotel is as it was prior as well.

Y

We've been concentrating again at the last work session, concentrating primarily on the.

Y

uh Mixed use and residential piece prior to that we were, we did quite a bit of work on the hotel.

Y

In like three or four concurrent work sessions, where we arrived at this final canopy, the metal.

Y

On the outside corner, in addition, a lot of the brick texturing there were quite a few.

Y

Updates to that a couple of work sessions ago, where we found it most beneficial to.

Y

Address you know one building, because they are, you know fairly significant.

Y

Architectural creations to you know, work on one uh building and then now work on this building.

Y

But they are part of the same application.

I

Nick is it possible for us to look at the model? The model give me a minute: okay,.

Y

I will do the whole presentation when we let her do that. Go to presentation.

Y

I mean we're in work session now, but when we go to public hearing I'll review the package, okay.

G

So, just just to confirm there were no other changes on the b or c or d right.

G

Just the cornice in that balcony shown in a yes the cornice color. There were.

Y

Some color changes: the corn has changed the color change, the projecting balcony.

Y

um And I believe uh we had, we had consolidated all the window patterns because the the smaller.

Y

Squares were not well received, so we went in. We adopted all the same window pattern.

G

But I just want to make sure I wasn't missing anything well, you did drop a.

A

Door in the rounded section on um yes, yes and you did you add a door? Is there a door on b on there.

Y

Is not because that it's it's accessible around from the projection? Yes right, yeah.

A

That's where they'll store their furniture or something I open.

A

Them all right we're waiting for our 3d. No we're not! We she's going to do.

H

A presentation yeah, oh okay. She is sorry, uh so this is still work.

A

Session, so anybody can just pipe up if they've got a question or anything at all.

C

I guess right: my only question is on 2.3 you're looking out from market street, basically across.

C

The water to it- and it looks like on the top floor, they're big openings in the windows or.

C

Is it just a weird rendering thing that is just a reflection of the glass okay? That is.

Y

um Somehow not reflecting, but they are okay. Yes, so it's not just not opening no.

A

um Okay, so I'm going to ask if anybody in the public would like to speak at this work session.

Z

Thank you. My name is liza hewitt. I live at 726 middle road.

Z

You do not need to approve this project if it is not completely right for portsmouth over the last.

Z

Few months I've heard members of this committee say I don't like it, but I guess I'll vote for it.

Z

Really, who can say no, the developers are counting on wearing you down. Please don't let that happen.

Z

By voting for a project that isn't right for portsmouth, this mixed-use building and hotel.

Z

May be just great architecturally, but that doesn't mean that it's right for this location.

Z

This there is a new building in the downtown that many many people find offensive.

Z

You this committee voted to approve it. That building is the prime example of a project.

Z

That may be an architectural gym to some, but may not have been built in the right location.

Z

Most of you on this committee have at some point, commented that the buildings are too big.

Z

And the massing is too much in response to these comments. The developer has spent months rounding.

Z

The corners of the buildings, and at this rate it looks like it's going to end up being a rotunda.

Z

This may be the right project, but not in this location, you have the ability.

Z

To prevent yet another monster, building from being built in the wrong location.

Z

You have the ability to say no to this project if it isn't right for portsmouth. Thank you. Thank you.

S

Good evening, once again duncan mccallum, I live at 536 state street and I'm.

S

Opposed to this project, I was here two months ago and I think I made my sentiments pretty clear at.

S

That time, I think the project is too big. If it is too massive, it is too obtrusive. It sticks.

S

Out like a sore thumb, and it isn't inconsistent with a character of its setting tonight, however,.

S

I will add another couple of specifics with some hard data, which is, it is inconsistent with the.

S

Master plan: I should log on to the city's websites uh download a copy. The master plan.

S

Those of you who have who have laptops here you could you could do it right now. If you wanted to.

S

In the recent most recent master print plan, which was was approved on february 16th to 7.

S

2017, the master plan made clear that this is not the kind of a five-story building or a four-story.

S

Buildings is not what it's called for in this setting. If you will turn if you will download.

S

That the master plan and turn your attention to pages 110 and 111. It is black and white.

S

There was a diagram which it shows that the buildings and vision to be on the on.

S

Located on the water are to be two two and a half story: buildings, not five and six story. Behemoths.

S

uh The master plan says and quoting from page 110, although it is expected that this area, namely the.

S

North end, although it is expected that this area will look and feel different from the.

S

Historic downtown, it is important to ensure that this area is built at a human scale and provides.

S

A rich urban experience for everyone- this can be accomplished by withdrawal. I'm reading it.

S

Literally, it's grammatically correct, but what it says this can be accomplished by with strong.

S

Pedestrian connections, seating areas and other amenities requiring complete streets and bicycle.

S

Facilities will also enhance the surroundings. This project that they are proposing is completely.

S

Inconsistent with that vision, if you look on page 111 of the master plan, you can see just what the.

S

uh Just what the drafters of the plan envisioned and, of course, I don't think, don't think I need to.

S

Remind you that the master plan that was approved in 2017 and is the current master plan was done.

S

With considerable public input, we had workshops, we had. I forget the term that was used, but basically.

X

Sure sure thank you, we had charettes considerable thought and considerable public input was put into.

S

This and the result was of a uh the result, was a product which is inconsistent with the.

S

Project which is being proposed tonight, so I add that to the comments that I made two months ago,.

S

This particular these buildings do not belong here, and I urge you to disapprove the project.

S

Both for the reasons that I've mentioned tonight and the reasons that I mentioned two.

S

Months ago, and of course, I probably don't have to tell you that I agree 100 with the comments.

S

That miss liza hewitt just made a moment a moment or two ago. Thank you. Thank you. Yes,.

AA

Good evening, mr chairman, commission members, my name is jim lee, 520 sagamore avenue, I'd like to.

AA

Speak against this project, I find it pretty ironic. We spent the last two hours talking about a stone.

AA

Wall and saving it and all of a sudden we're ready to tear down some buildings and put up a.

AA

Bunch of new huge buildings where they shouldn't be, I'm looking at the some of the drawings of.

AA

This and if you're driving down the streets where those buildings are proposed to be the only place.

AA

You can see the skies if you look straight up. It's rather ironic in the city, the fiction to celebrate.

AA

Its 400 years of existence and is is consistently rated one of the top 10 historical cities to visit.

AA

In the united states they were talking about building this modern, such modern, huge buildings.

AA

To uh to take a space where that shouldn't be so, I hope you would.

AA

Consider those words when you make your decision about this project. Thank you.

T

Pizza hut, 280 south street, I have attended the last couple of meetings on this project and.

T

um Even though miss rudy was not here for the last one, I recall the objections of the massing and the.

T

Request to pull it back from the water. What we've seen tonight looks like to me that we're switching.

T

The view and we're leaving exactly what we had before and rounding the corners and putting some.

T

um Different materials on that that, and I'm speaking of the of the one on maplewood.

T

um Is this really historic? um Is this according to our master plan, I I think this commission should.

T

Ask themselves that first of all- and the next thing would be the hotel um we've seen that before.

T

To the untrained eye, maybe it looks like a big block like every other block that is over there.

T

That is a hotel and the fact that nothing was even tweaked on this presentation tonight is.

T

Very discerning to some residents as myself, so I would ask you to consider not approving this.

T

For the reasons that everybody else gave and the consistent massing that is going to be on.

T

Our north mill pond and at the gateway, the north gateway to portsmouth. So this is what people are.

T

Going to see and as a person who used to live over there and enjoy turning that corner off dennett.

T

And looking at the steeple and enjoying the historic view from that side, um I have expressed.

T

My feelings before of how how disappointing this is, but I think we've come to this point now, where.

T

We just keep coming back and presenting the same thing and tweaking a couple. Little little features.

T

On there the fact remains, the massing is still there. I urge you to vote this down. Thank you.

A

Okay, um so seeing no one else, I'm gonna close this and make sure.

B

Nobody else at this time, so um I'm closing the work session and we're going to move into.

A

Public hearing.

G

I'm gonna speak to this and we're done. Okay, yes! Well! I guess so good evening we're in public.

Y

Hearing, yes, this is public hearing, so um I guess your presentation doesn't need to be as long as.

A

um As it might be, but you do need to go over all the significant points. Correct.

A

As if we hadn't heard it before, I'm going to uh introduce evan for me to open up here,.

Y

With a a quick summary and then I'll launch into the package, can you go back to uh 0.1.

A

I mean 1.0 right here: no zero, zero point one good evening: okay, evan tormy, uh xss hotels, representing.

AB

The applicant I'll be brief. It's late, I see some yawning. I know, there's been a lot of discussion.

AB

About rock walls tonight, but I did just want to sort of reset uh here this project that we have.

AB

Before us tonight originally was two five-story buildings. It's since been reduced to. We have.

AB

A four-story building with a penthouse we've been through a lot of great uh dialogue with.

AB

You through the course of a number of work sessions. I think we've made a lot of progress.

AB

On these buildings, the again these are allowed, buy right. There's no zoning relief required here.

AB

This project involves a half acre park that will be community space along the waterfront for the.

AB

Public to enjoy there will be waterfront access where there is none currently today, and I think.

AB

Attorney mccallum mentioned earlier master plan complete streets, bicycle facilities. Those are.

AB

Included in this project, I know that's not your purview, but just to reiterate you know these.

AB

Buildings we we could have built a much larger building here by right, 30 000 square feet. I think.

AB

Is the allowed footprint these are both around fifteen thousand square feet, so we did take that.

AB

In mind when designing this project splitting up the buildings, I think commissioner ryan mentioned.

AB

Last time the view from across the waterfront. Now, when you look at this project, it looks like.

AB

Five buildings from across the waterfront at the marshland park because of the work that's.

AB

Gone on over the course of the last months with this commission, so I just want to reiterate you.

AB

Know this is buy right. This is four stories, not five, even though the public notice still includes.

AB

The original application height of five stories for the mixed-use building and we we have spent.

AB

A considerable amount of time with you folks, working on these designs, and I think we we feel.

AB

As a development team, this has really come a long way and that this can be a great project for the.

AB

City, so I'll turn it back over to carla. Thank you. um I have some questions on the site. That's right.

A

um As one who has walked along that shoreline, I used to pick bottles out of there because at.

A

One time it was a shipyard and it was pretty ripe there, so you have uh on the shoreline. You don't.

A

Have any indications of rock walls or anything or or rip wrap? um What do you feel you're going to.

A

Have that's going to go down to the high tide mark? Because I don't think the grass is going to or is.

A

The grass going to just go down so there's no, no work in that in that shoreline area anticipated or.

AB

In that 25 foot buffer, there is some reclamation of the pier that we're working on permitting.

AB

But we wouldn't be, there is some rip wrap. I think most of that is more on the city-owned land, as you.

AB

Get closer to the bridge, um but no it just sort of it's. You know, there's existing conditions.

A

Invasive trees and things like that that you're going to bump into and yeah and we do the.

AB

Approvals contemplate removing those invasives and there is a comprehensive landscape plan that was.

AB

Approved uh that includes a lot of native species uh and incur you know you can see this landscape.

AB

Buffer, not only between the path and the hotel and the berm and the mixed use building, but also the.

AB

Conservation commission, the planning board had us put in pretty extensive uh landscape buffer.

AB

Between the path and the water to keep people and dogs from getting down to the waterfront.

A

On the right hand, side of the reconstructed kimber pier as kind of an inlet there, and then it curves.

A

Around and goes back out onto the obviously that's the city-owned property, but right at that location.

A

The soil can be green, it's green there. I've seen it.

A

Green, like algae, the there was dump, and this this is just the site plan and I'm sorry. I should have.

A

Probably brought this up at the work session, but um have you are you aware of that? I'm aware.

AB

That there's an outfall for the city storm drain right there there's a head wall in that inlet area.

AB

And we are proposing part of the site plan. Approval was providing an easement to the city.

AB

In order to replace that, we'd also be replacing a lot of storm water facilities and treating storm.

AB

Water leaving the city streets as well as the site before it goes out. I'm happy that I've gotten.

A

uh That particular bit of information into the public, because it's more than an outfall, it is.

A

Some kind of dumping had gone on there probably a hundred years ago, and I suspect it's copper.

A

But I'm not sure that's the only questions I have on your site plan. Thank you.

A

B

Yeah, can I yes can, I just say something about the site plan before we go into the.

B

The details, because you know I think for me in fairness to the many speakers we've.

B

Had over the many meetings we've had that reference, the 2015 vision plan yeah, which.

B

Which was a charette, a design charette with hundreds of people participating.

B

And there was wide public agreement on the vision for properties like this in the north.

B

End on reigns, ave, green street everything we've been looking at in the last couple of years.

B

And I think everybody falls into this at a different uh level of either support or.

B

Disappointment with perhaps the massing scale and rhythm of what's what's come to you on this site,.

B

And there's been a lot of references to this page, 110 and 11, which I happen to.

B

Have in front of me and you've all seen it and it's been referred to, it is the vision plan.

B

It's in the just an illustrative concept, for in this case the rains have property.

B

And it's very different than what we're looking at. We all know that.

B

We also know that the zoning allows a multitude of outcomes to occur on a property like this.

B

And this may have been the target, but I think it's important for everybody to recognize. There are 10.

B

Buildings on this site, one rains- I have these three properties that are there today have 10.

B

Buildings in the vision plan and again it's just an illustration, but it's tangible and you can look.

B

At it and it's it's been waived about a lot. There are 10 buildings, six or seven of them are within.

B

The 100 foot buffer, which has become a big point of contention in the community as to whether the.

B

Way that wetlands ordinance has been administered for dozens of years is appropriate. Moving forward.

B

And as everybody here knows, there's been appeals lodged on this project and 53.

B

Green street and 100 and 105 bartlett, all of which are in the buffer zone,.

B

uh With heavy criticism towards the conditional use permit issued by the.

B

Planning board because of the activities in that buffer zone, which is 100 feet.

B

So the applicants made very clear at the beginning of this process to my recollection, more than.

B

A year ago, they chose to pull themselves out of the 100 foot buffer because of that.

B

Current concern: well, if you take something with almost the same volume, a bigger footprint is here.

B

Much bigger footprint is in the vision plan than what's proposed. The volume is probably similar.

B

10 buildings versus two, the hotel portion of the site is smaller than what was envisioned in this.

B

Illustration and the mixed-use side is probably bigger, just round numbers, uh I would say the the.

B

Biggest surprise, we didn't anticipate when we did. The translation of the vision into the code is.

B

These properties were not in common ownership at the time. I think that cindy ann cleaners and the.

B

uh The white building in the middle were owned by one entity, but the vanguard gym was somebody else.

B

And by pooling the three properties it allowed, the height of the the taller portion of the site, which.

B

Is the vanguard gym building which is allowed at five stories, with the incentive uh for the.

B

Green space that bled over by design in the code. But we didn't- we didn't anticipate that when we.

B

Wrote the code that that bled over to a degree into the uh whatever the white building's called.

B

The office building and the city and cleaner site so again the code allows it I'm just stating what.

B

Maybe many of you already know, but I do think it's really important for the community when.

B

They refer to this to realize yeah this. This looks really different and there's an argument.

B

To be made that it's it it it's more like what we have in the north end than maybe what we wanted.

B

But to get what we wanted required a whole lot of work in the buffer zone. There's a building on.

B

The shoreline in here actually projecting over the water, where a building used to be on maplewood ave.

B

To the left of cindy and cleaners probably been gone for 50 to 100 years, don't know, I know yeah.

B

So again, illustration, but you can't have it both ways. It has to be either spread out with a clear.

B

Stepping as we we wanted, but then you've got to let them work in the buffer zone and they chose.

B

Not to do that because of the recent concerns that weren't anticipated when the vision plan.

B

Was done, it wasn't uh the concern uh that there is today so they've chosen to pull back, go taller.

B

Where they're allowed to do it with and they're struggling to to preserve the step down within the.

B

Building mass of two buildings, so I just wanted to say that, because I I think I think, there's.

B

Some really good points being raised, but it's also important to recognize. There's some significant.

B

Constraints, you're working around that's, pushing you closer to the street edge and then pushing.

B

You up so nick. I'm glad you said that, because I was going to bring that up too. It just seems like.

H

I would have loved to seen something closer to the vision plant, but the same people who pushed.

H

For the vision plan probably would have followed a lawsuit for building in the buffer, wouldn't it.

B

I don't know that, but no we don't know I'm just wanting to point out. What's where and.

B

Yeah- and I didn't want to beat that horse again because we did talk about it last time that we.

AB

Had made significant investment to keep the buildings out of the 100 foot buffer along.

AB

The north mill pond, and no, that is what really drove the location inside of them. Okay and I I.

A

Would like to say, I was at that particular charette and um went on a few days and.

A

The whole plan that was drawn was drawn overnight pretty much by some friend. It's.

H

A it's a concept yeah, I know, but it was drawn just like that. We were at the charade. Everybody.

A

Was putting red, dots and yellow dots on what they liked and what kind of buildings they.

A

Didn't like and all this sort of stuff and then the next time we came there were these drawings.

A

um So it was haphazardly done, it was done quickly, it wasn't, but I think that the main.

B

Point isn't how quickly it was done it it's that it is a concept, but it envisioned an.

B

Extensive amount of work in the buffer zone that doesn't appear to be something uh many people in.

B

The community continue to support so then it it's got to result in a change in what's left.

A

Yeah um continue with your proposal here. Well now I have to comment on the site again.

Y

um I just want to say that I too was there watching the dots be stuck on the wall and.

Y

So forth- and you know one of the most beneficial and beautiful things that has come out of that.

Y

That exercise is that the waterfront is returned to the public along many private properties.

Y

Along the north mill pond, because I've worked on several of them across the way. And you know from.

Y

The one acre park to to this to the continuation of 53 green street- I mean that really is the gift.

Y

Of the master planning piece- and you know nick- is correct in the.

Y

um Environmentally responsible way to build these buildings is to pull them away from the water and.

Y

Preserve that land and not only are, is it pulled away and preserved. It's returned to the public.

Y

So I wasn't planning on saying I didn't quite say that, but I like this, but.

B

Is really good all right, so um I think that, uh beginning the presentation on 1.0 a we've.

Y

Looked at the choices available for the building along maplewood and, I believe just to reinforce.

Y

For people who are just joining us, you know this is the culmination of many many work sessions on.

Y

Both buildings both separately and combined, and I would say that we would stipulate that the flush.

Y

Balconies be a stipulation as the choice for the approval based on what I've heard so looking at.

Y

1.1 a you can also see that the changes that were implemented during our last several work sessions.

Y

On this mixed-use building, the final changes are projecting the balconies redesigning the entrance.

Y

Redesigning this main entrance of the residential projecting these balconies darkening, the siding.

Y

On the upper floors and, of course, providing a whole new identity for the building along.

Y

Maplewood, we also created a much more organized facade and you know eroded the top of the of the.

Y

um Of the cornice here at all the balcony locations, uh skipping b, uh again 1.2 a is.

Y

Just another perspective of the changes I just described, 1.3 a carries this theme around to oh.

Y

1.3 a carries the theme of projecting balconies around to the waterside again, with a well-defined.

Y

Entry piece and then the cornice drops down to a three-story brick structure, an additional setback.

Y

Here and then the penthouse level, which again the four stories and a penthouse dropping down to.

Y

Three and then dropping down to three without any structures, above sort of as cascading down toward.

Y

Maplewood- and you know that is this: uh abandoning the five-story building in this location.

Y

uh Skipping b, moving on to 2.0 uh rendering uh night rendering of the hotel again illustrating.

Y

The corner element that was brought into the design during work session, the more.

Y

Dramatic canopy, with a little bit of a different look uh more vertical, dramatic.

Y

Glass elements here and the brick banding is not as visible in the rendering, but we will.

Y

See that in the following page on 2.1, where the textures are a little bit more prominent.

Y

Banding along here a different metal element at the top on the top floor, and then we also have.

Y

A textured textured brick base along the entire first floor and we added in work session um a gray.

Y

Base color again wrapping and supporting the base of the hotel 2.2 highlights the dramatic corner.

Y

Overlooking 3s and then another entrance here as you round the corner to the waterside and.

Y

Then, when you get to 2.3, you can see that at as we again approach the water, the hotel actually.

Y

Steps down to four stories for a bay of of significant mass here on that corner.

Y

2.4 close-up of that same view again showing the brick texturing band and the uh band in.

Y

The base elements, and then uh also the cornice, carries around. We talked quite a bit about the.

Y

Working on the cornice during work session, to give it a little more weight and volume.

Y

2.5 illustrates the view from across the pond through the park and the restoration.

Y

Of the of the docking area or the pier and then of course, the the five different style.

Y

Elements across the water side and then as I get to 3.0 in the interest of time,.

Y

These are the construction documents required for submission to the board, to more detail and to.

Y

Represent all of the details of the building, as well as the size and dimensional requirements, I'm.

Y

Happy to answer any questions that you may have on these and uh at the end or and then possibly.

Y

Just move to section five, because there is a significant amount there, but we could move to.

Y

Section five and look at materials. If you like, I'm gonna, look at the 3d. We can do that too. Yeah.

A

um Does anybody have any questions at this point? What has already been covered.

Y

You can see there's uh many many details um there. We go so here in um section five.

Y

We're just illustrating the materials proposed for the project, which consists of.

Y

um Multiple uh actual brick veneer colors, as well as.

Y

um The metal panels from vitra bond, which is a like a sandwich panel of metal for.

Y

For some of the siding elements and all of these areas are called out on the elevations and.

Y

Indicated when you get to 5.2 we're using marvin essential, so we are, you know not using any sort.

Y

Of vinyl products of any kind of quality of materials has been a long um standing mantra of.

Y

The historic district, so I just want to reinforce that we are using um the higher end windows actual.

Y

Masonry and metals, not plastics and so forth, so the upper levels does go to a lighter material.

Y

Where we are using uh siding in a pre-finished, color and then the balcony railings are also metal.

Y

Continuing on to 5.5 the proposed light fixtures- and I think that concludes my presentation unless.

Y

You have any other questions that you'd like me to answer, or any details you'd like us to go over.

I

Oh I'm sorry, I have a material question sure on the site plan way at the beginning.

I

There's added screens called out as part of the berm structure. Yes,.

I

Are those are the materials or style of those screens indicated anywhere.

Y

Oh, that is a good call. Luckily, we have an example standing just down the block. I don't stipulate. I.

AB

Don't think they are, but I think the intent and what we had shown in the renderings was similar to.

AB

What was approved and installed at 145 maplewood and also at the entrance to the future park.

AB

Between the ac and 3s, it's an ipe fence system. We could certainly stipulate that that if, if the.

AB

Board or the commission likes, we could stipulate that that be the material, but it's a like six foot.

AB

Excuse me: six foot tall fence, uh it's like one by six or five quarter by six.

AB

uh At the base space and then it's slightly smaller and varying widths as you get closer.

AB

To the top capped on top and sides as well, I think it is does show up in the rendering on.

AB

We'll just do it.

AB

AB

I

um 2.5, okay, I see it so that's something that we could have if we needed the details. We.

A

Could approve administrative approvals we could submit that. uh Is there a perfect plan that shows.

A

You know your heat and your ventilation and all the hvac stuff.

Y

They are on the models and you just they just aren't visible in many of these views, um because.

Y

They're set way back on the roof. If you look on uh one point, huh has the roof plan? Yes, that's true.

Y

Three six three point: six on the roof plan and it was a 4.6 4.5- is the.

Y

Plan and if you look at the renderings, you can see them, uh yeah 4.5 shows them as well.

Y

And if you look at the renderings, they have been modeled and you can see.

Y

See if you look most at 2.5, you can start to see them popping up on in the model, because.

Y

That's the farthest. You know back view that we have there's only one elevator.

A

In that building 2.5 your mixed use to mix yes, one shaft, two cabs one over run, then.

B

Is that the color you're going to screen it or paint it, and that is that metal? Those are just the.

Y

Masses of the we haven't modeled each individual piece of equipment, but those are the masses you.

B

Can come back for administrative approval on all the mechanical mechanicals sure and unless.

B

They're in here there's no screens in here, no screens. No, um I don't. I don't recommend screens.

Y

Because I think they just create more masks, it could be paint screen whatever. It is right. Yeah.

A

There's no restaurants proposed at this time in there, so.

V

We certainly aren't precluding there from being restaurants in the space, so there could be fans.

AB

Coming up to the roof level, we have accommodated with some uh shaft space within the building, uh so.

AB

The tenant space is on uh maplewood avenue on the first floor and also along raines avenue could or.

AB

Could not be a restaurant? That's you know, okay, a lot. It's an allowed use any equipment. There's.

D

Really, the only equipment would be a makeup area, any equipment to be added yep. I think we did show.

D

On the replay, [music] uh no, we just had the rtus and the.

AB

um Condensers, so I guess there's not that roof fan shown there so anything that would.

AB

Be added, nothing would be installed at this point would be added later by it. Tenants are complete.

A

Yes, david- and this is more than likely way out of our purview, but has there ever been.

J

Any conversation about the photovoltaic on the roof is that something that you think about doing.

AB

We've considered it if you look at the the mixed-use building, there's a lot of equipment.

AB

Up there, which sort of breaks everything up the hotel, certainly we could look at potentially in.

AB

The future there's, you know more open space on those roofs but, as far as I know, we'd also.

AB

Have to come back for that to get it approved on the roof you you do and I can tell you what.

B

You already know, which is you've, got a lot of room on that roof for for panels, even with all.

B

Those condensers, so there is room to do it. If you choose to do it, I think it's important for you to.

B

Hear from as many of these folks as you can that they support it, so we have people with with wood.

J

Frame houses that are clawing at the concept to do that, and, and it is not typically a pretty sight.

J

um And here you have an opportunity to do it, where it isn't something that we.

J

Have to have, as part of our daily experience like brushing our teeth.

J

um And and and it's you know, you do use up a lot of your roof areas, at least.

J

One of the plants that I'm looking at uh by spreading your condensers out, but you could.

J

Pack them into a smaller area. Certainly I just put 10 kva on my roof, so I know oh interesting.

B

Excellent yeah it'd be good if you designed it to support solar. Even if it's not your short-term.

B

Plan because once you put all that stuff down, as you know, it's going to be hard to move it. Yes,.

A

Does anybody have some comments here? No, I would like the questions I'd like to just make some.

H

Comments, I feel like we're wrapping up yeah. um You know this. It's been a long call, it's been a long.

H

Process and I think that the project has gotten a lot better and the architecture's gotten a lot.

H

Better, um I know we had a back and forth last time about mass, saying it and I'd say massings.

H

Fine others say it's not and the reason I say it's fine is because I'm judging it based on.

H

On some real criteria that it is one lot, it is a very large lot. It is the north end. There are.

H

Buildings very similar in scale and height on the north end, but one of the bigger things is that.

H

Looking at the ratio between the the spaces around the building and the height and size of.

H

The building it's appropriate mass wise based on that, because if you look at, if you look at.

H

Reigns avenue um the distance to the other building is is about 1.5 compared to the the.

H

Height of the building to me it should it should be one to one or even one and a half in favor of.

H

The building to the street and that that would make a much better urban design a much better.

H

um Use of urban space, and so that's why I'm saying that the massing is appropriate, if not.

H

um You know, if not it couldn't, he could even be bigger, and if you.

H

Care about sustainability, you put more mass on smaller site on you, use, use more building on.

H

Less sight, so that's why, back and forth with you, margot, I said it's it's right and that's.

H

Why I feel that way, there's an argument behind it's just not just not uh just an opinion so.

H

um So I'm very pleased with where we are at this point and and uh like I said it would have been.

H

Great to follow the vision plan, unfortunately, that's uh it's just not in the card, so thank you.

H

A

So rich, I'm sorry! Thank you, john um cheer. um I appreciate all the.

G

Work we've done, we've been working on this we've had a lot of work sessions.

G

um You know a lot of back and forth. I appreciate all the effort. I appreciate all the listening.

G

um I went down there and it's not the first time I've been walking around there, but I went down and.

G

Took a walk down there today I saw the bottles that john didn't pick up uh back in the day.

G

um And honestly, it's been like that for so long and it was kind of sad to me to think that there.

G

Is this waterfront in downtown portsmouth that nobody can use nobody can enjoy so.

G

Knowing what the greenway project the north mill pond greenway project, um I mean, I believe, the.

G

Massing of these buildings fit, I think, we've done a good job of rounding, that corner down a little.

G

Bit so it steps into the neighborhood, and I even went over to hinkle park where you look across and.

G

You can you can see all the colonial homes in the distance and then, if you go to the left, you know.

G

You'll be on the site that we're looking at today and I truly believe it fits it's. It's there's.

G

That vanguard building there right now and it's it. This is going to be much improvement than that. So.

G

I think of all this hard work, I think has been worth it. um I think I appreciate you.

G

Guys working with us, I appreciate all the ideas all the like I said listening before, um but the.

G

Combination um of helping progress that north mill pond greenway project park, we've received several.

G

Letters from numerous residents in town that are very in support of this project, anxious to see it.

G

Happen, you know moved here, hoping that someone, someone would do something nice with this piece.

G

Of property, so I'm finally happy to say that I think we're here today. Thank you. Thank you.

A

Oh reagan, um I know that we had. I had brought this up in earlier sessions, um but speaking of.

C

The buildings that are there now, like the vanguard, building, um I'd like to know what is part of this.

C

Your plan is to document um any of the existing buildings and if you have an archeology plan, if.

C

You're going to be doing any major excavating what your plans are for for that part of the project.

Y

I think that was covered in the planning board aspect yeah, and I think we we did discuss.

AB

Earlier in the project, as I said that we would um document the existing buildings photo document.

C

And what and what does that entail? You, I think uh we had suggested the time you might have a.

AB

Scope that you would request uh being having some experience with that that you know if.

AB

You want to stipulate that certain type of documentation be complete a certain you know.

AB

How how extensive it be might need to be certainly would be willing to do that.

A

I think at the time I sort of recall this, that we were going to focus mostly on the exterior.

Y

Of the buildings um you know and create a photo documentation of the 360 of all the buildings.

Y

We could also do video if you like, and then we could do some dimensional. uh You know perimeter.

Y

And height, if that would be helpful um yeah no, I mean I think that would be great. um I think.

C

Video is great, but it's a less lasting um medium because you know the technology is.

C

Changing so much, I think photography is great. I would, I think, there's value in photographing the.

C

Interior of the buildings too, even if they're not very pretty, it still is a documentation of what.

C

Was there for future knowledge um and so yeah? I think I would love to stipulate that you have.

C

Good photo documentation of um you know certainly thoroughly of the exterior any possible interior.

C

Shots- and we usually submit it to the city and to the athenaeum and the archeology and.

C

The archeology is a question too, and I don't know how much I know that you have. You have a lot of.

C

You don't have any underground parking in this, so um I don't know just how much excavation they'll.

C

Be needing to do um and but if you run into any thing um what your plans are because there's.

C

Definitely obviously there's modern stuff there now, but there were plenty of historic.

C

Buildings, you might run into cellar holes or absolutely. I think we probably run into some.

AB

Old pure materials, it's a lot of. We have done some test bits out there. There were some underground.

AB

Storage tanks previously removed out there, sydney and cleaners was previously a filling station, so.

AB

um There's been some testaments, I don't think they've found anything historic during those.

AB

Test pits, uh but certainly if there was something of historical significance, it would be would get.

AB

An archaeologist involved and document it. Okay, I would like to have that as a stipulation and.

C

And hopefully um you know you if you find anything that you could at least make sure.

C

That it's available to the public, like I don't know if you've been into jimmy's but like the.

C

Little they have in the stairwell things that they found in that building are on display. You.

C

Know just something rather than you can have an archaeologist, be there to document it, but.

C

Then, if that's not shared with anybody, it doesn't do any good. No absolutely, and I.

AB

Think the you know the path, the greenway trail there's some great opportunities there for you.

AB

Know we have shown some signage out there, but certainly we could add some historical markers.

AB

There might be an opportunity to display some artifacts if we find some- and we are, you know.

AB

Anticipating that we're going to restore that pier as well to make that great great.

C

Thank you, so I would just like to say in that same vein. In that little space, that's between.

A

um The gas station, which is cindy ann's cleaners and the diamond national lumber company, which.

A

Is a rental property that some they there should be foundations there for the boyd rains house.

A

Which was, I think, the largest house in portsmouth for a long time, and this person just kept.

A

Making it bigger, so it was like a center chimney that had three center chimneys on.

A

It it was an immense house, there's got to be privies and foundations and things there and.

A

That's why we want you to be aware of this as far as the uh having an archaeologist.

A

They should check the property first, there should be some test diggings and let you.

A

Know I think they've they did that [music] um on one of the projects. Maybe it was a portwalk.

A

So we are going to stipulate that that you do have to do some pre-archeology diggings is.

A

I'm not I'm not sure, that's the proper way to say it.

AB

Survey of sorts archaeological survey- yeah I mean it was you know in that shipyard that.

A

Was there that was one of the largest shipyards? That thing was putting out clipper ships, all the.

A

Time that was a big shipyard and you don't have all of it a lot of it. The city's got.

A

So uh going back to the site again, I'm wondering about: how are you going to construct the pier.

A

There has never been any um any kind of blueprint or anything showing us how you're.

A

Going to construct this peer is, is it going to have floats, or is it just going to be a viewing.

A

Pier it's, it would be a viewing peer, built sort of reconstructing the existing timber. Pier that's.

AB

Out there so it'll have a railing around it. Yes, yep and the railing would be something.

A

That we would need to look like just come back with the pier yeah. You've got it yeah, yeah and.

AB

I think we did show that to the planning board and the conservation commission as well. There.

AB

Were some preliminary designs for that, so I'm happy to come back without yep all righty.

A

Okay, all righty, um so any members of the public that would like to speak about this project before.

Y

I sit down, I just want to say the city model appears to have lost all of our materials. We.

Y

Are not proposing a white building? Well, thanks for saying that, oh I don't know why that's the case.

B

It's a massing model, hello again duncan mccallum back here again, uh I'm back here to rebut some of.

S

The comments that were made by the gentleman who's representing the developers just a few.

S

Minutes ago he says that he and his comrades are entitled by right to build a building that.

S

They're proposing that it complies with all of the zoning zoning requirements and that they.

S

Could have built an even bigger building, he obviously does not understand the function of.

S

The historic district commission, which is that a project a proposed project, can fully comply.

S

With every requirement of the zoning ordinance chapter and verse without even having to be.

S

Bothered going getting a variance or a special exception from the zba. And yet if the project is.

S

Inconsistent with its historic setting, this board can still this commission can still disapprove. It.

S

Not only may this commission still disapprove it. This commission is supposed to disapprove. It.

S

And by this time I think, we've established and disabused everybody on this commission of the.

S

Notion that architecture is the only thing to be considered that excessive height and excessive.

S

Mass are grounds for disapproving it if it causes it to be inconsistent with the historical.

S

Character of its surroundings, which these buildings, which are being proposed plainly, are.

S

The gentleman was absolutely wrong in saying that it complies with the requirements of the zoning.

S

Ordinance in the first place, there is litigation going on right now over that issue in the superior.

S

Court, I'm in a position to know because I'm representing about 10 or 15 of the residents.

S

Who are opposed to it? It is hotly disputed that hotly disputed that this project complies with.

S

The requirements of the zoning ordinance and I expect to win, and finally, I will remind you of.

S

Something that I said a couple of months ago, which is that the planning board granted a.

S

Request on mike part for reconsideration, so the planning board itself is having second thoughts.

S

About this project, uh you will, you may recall when I outlined the history before what happened? Was we.

S

Fight the planning board approved the project in its december 16th to 2021 meeting I filed a motion.

S

For re-hearing and then the developers filed a proceeding in the superior court and got a.

S

Stay of oil land use board proceedings, at least in the planning board. How the how and why the court.

S

Continue to let this board continue to conduct hearings, I don't know, but the proceedings and.

S

The planning board were frozen by the court's injunction, but I'm expecting to win that battle.

S

Too, I'm expecting it to go back to the planning board where we're going to have a re-hearing.

S

So, for all of those reasons please don't be, uh please don't be swayed by some of.

S

The representations that have been made to you by the gentleman representing the developers.

S

Because those representations are wrong for all of these reasons and the ones I mentioned before.

S

I urge you to disapprove this project for the grounds that I have mentioned. Thank you. Thank you.

A

Anybody is there, anyone else in the public would like to speak.

A

Hang on anyone online: yes, um the order of operations here, esther kennedy.

B

Esther, can you hear me esther hello, this is, can everyone hear me yeah go ahead? uh This is esther.

AC

Esther green ave- and I just heard about uh attorney mcculkin, had just said, and I'm in.

AC

Total agreement, you have the right to make a decision about massing as a previous acc.

AC

Member, that was our purview, so I encourage you to think about the building. I can encourage you.

AC

To think about the environmental aspects of it, and I encourage you to save our buffer zones.

AC

And really think about the step up, which is what we said we were going to do when we did.

AC

The study of the north end thank you and have a good evening. Thank you. Bill downing.

B

Go ahead bill. um Yes, I could even bill downey 67 bow street.

AD

um I believe it's absolutely nonsensical to suggest that this is a better opportunity.

AD

Than 10 smaller buildings that would be in the uh 100 foot buffer zone.

AD

I actually called the principal and the lead designer who put those sketches together. They.

AD

Were not done haphazardly, they were done over a weeks period and a lot of people felt very.

AD

Empowered people that typically don't speak at these meetings at this length of investment is.

AD

One reason why, but there was a lot of input and it wasn't done in a shoddy way. So I think there.

AD

Was a very inaccurate and poor representation of that, and in essence this is still too big. I.

AD

Think there's been a good faith effort to soften the corner on maplewood. But if you look at this.

AD

Diagram that we have in front of us, how could you say it complements the integrity and character of.

AD

The neighborhood look at the beautiful historic buildings on the right. There needs to be an.

AD

Adjustments step up to the monstrosities that are already there, and so I would just ask you.

AD

To consider taking it down a notch and continue to soften it, but as it stands now, there's no way.

AD

A reasonable person can say it's consistent with the historic neighborhood. Thank you.

B

Thank you bill. Look, that's it alrighty. May I ask a technical question. Certainly nick.

I

With regard to the litigations and we hearing potential re-hearings and all of those things.

I

um What impact does do any of those have on our decision if this project is given a certificate.

I

Of approval here, but then a rehearing happens at the planning board and the planning board.

I

Rejects it, how does all of that play out? Well who the heck knows, however, it it really isn't.

B

Relevant? What if the planning board uh re-hears this and the applicant with the planning board.

B

Or the planning board without the applicant modifies the design of the future decision.

B

If it changes the building placement volume or design, it comes back, but we do that all.

B

The time, okay, um I don't think you're at and the inverse. I don't think you voting on this.

B

Project has any undue influence on. I would like to think not on a judge or a jury reviewing a.

B

Case that has nothing to do with your your jurisdiction, because you're not under appeal.

B

The planning board is essentially horizontal construction, so they're, not a design review.

B

Board as much as they might want to be they're, not their horizontal construction, you're vertical.

B

So their appeal is more about the buffer zone because they're the ones that actually approve.

B

What the conservation commission recommends- and there are there's more at play in the appeal and.

B

The attorney representing the 12 or 14 or 28 constituents confederate state. What's in that.

B

Appeal but the wetland buffer is a big component, and that has nothing to do with us in relation.

B

To this project, if it actually looked like the 10 buildings, it would because six or seven of.

B

Them are in the hundred foot buffer. So that's not what we're looking at in front of us so.

B

The wetland buffer has less of an impact on the on the buildings, which is your jurisdiction, not.

B

The berms and the parking and the things that are jurisdictional to the planning board in the buffer.

B

The buildings are not in the buffer ex. There is a little corner uh that I believe is in the buffer.

B

To the to the mill pond on the other side of maplewood ave, with a 50 foot right away with.

B

40 feet of pavement and uh a lot of stuff between it and the water that are not on this parcel. So.

B

For the for the most sake, um I I don't think there's a direct correlation between the two.

B

And if, if it comes back, it comes back they're not going to get a building permit because of what you.

B

Do tonight, thank you, okay, all right, so I'm going to close the public hearing and look for a motion.

A

Please site findings of facts and and criteria. I want to be I'll make.

H

A motion to approve this application- um I don't believe we had any stipulations.

H

Yeah, the plush sorry carly might have to help me on the flush balcony version. How to word that what.

B

You guys chose yeah, give me a okay, the a series or whatever yeah, um that this the screen design.

B

That's on the ground, whatever you're, calling that landscape screen how's, that the mechanical screens.

B

On the roof and the pier design, both pure walls and railings, will all come back for administrative.

B

Approval once the designs have been developed right, the mechanicals, the mechanicals, are.

Y

Represented for what is you know expected at this time, but we still have a full mep uh process to.

Y

Go through so we'll come back for administrative approval when you're ready mechanical systems for.

B

Any screening or what screening techniques that you're going to deploy. I think those were the wait.

B

No they're not done um you, do a photographic documentation of the building's interior and.

B

Exterior on the site, the three correct- and I thought it might make sense, rather than a.

B

Pre-Development survey or excavation that the licensed archaeologists be present.

B

During excavation, at least so there's somebody there when they're digging that can guide the.

B

The process or say stop but yeah right have the authority. I can add a little bit to that.

Y

When we did the court street project, which was very near the african bearing ground.

Y

We had an archaeological survey completed prior to any digging and sensitive areas.

Y

Were identified and then when that way, when the team is ready to approach those areas, the.

Y

Archaeologist is that sounds perfect yeah. That was the process there right yeah. So.

B

An archaeological survey prior to excavation right they'll certainly identify the house. The.

B

Archaeologists will be available during excavation of those any sensitive areas.

A

Okay, it's okay, finding of facts. uh The purpose and intent is to uh the conservation and enhancement.

H

Of property, values- and uh it is, it- is compatible with the design of the surrounding properties.

G

A

um Okay, uh there's no other discussion I'll just say that I sorry I should have.

C

Said this earlier, I just think that the um there's been a lot of discussion about.

C

The everything because we've gone for so long, um but I personally I've gone.

C

Back and forth with this, but I think that the design has come a long way.

C

um And is much more interesting and it and it is it compatible with the buildings that are.

C

There now in the north end, this is what um the character of this this neighborhood is now so.

D

And dan would like to say I I think they worked hard and we worked hard on the.

E

Multi-Use building, so, as you come around the bridge and from mabel, would it terraced nicely.

E

It doesn't overwhelm the old house old houses across the street, it doesn't overwhelm the.

E

The pond area, but if you look at 2.2, we've worked so hard on the multi-use building that suddenly.

E

When you come around the corner that terrorists in nice and down the three and four, is this big.

E

Huge hotel- and I think slide 2.2 just makes me worry- that's too much mass, especially next.

E

To 3s and against, and what you have done to the moldy purpose, building that the hotel is is too.

E

Large and and too overwhelming and I'm gonna have trouble with that hotel being that huge.

A

Nobody else could like to discuss. I think I've spoken my piece yeah, okay,.

A

um The only thing that I I would like to say, um and it's not about any particular style or.

A

What's going on here is if I were to look at 50 units going on an acre in downtown. I would rather.

A

Approve that than 50 units going on 25 acres on pevely hill, road or on middle street or out.

A

And have all the trees cut down, I prefer development in town and this works along.

A

With my ideas, so uh I'm going to call for a vote. All those in favor say: aye aye, aye, the chair votes.

A

High opposed and opposed no opposed opposed, three opposed three. um Do I get to vote today because.

F

uh Karen's no you're, both alternates uh right, so somebody would have to be missing, got it. So that's.

B

A 4-3 vote right that sounds like that: it barely made it uh bro. You have your approval for now.

A

Sure pushed around a little thank you.

U

Last one is that I did one more: oh, okay, I'm sorry! Luckily they it's easy yeah are they here.

F

This is the um okay, so apologies to whoever had to wait, and that is 4400 braden and robin.

A

Ferrari owners for property located at 44 humphreys court wherein permission is.

A

Requested to allow renovations to an existing structure, this has replaced.

A

Windows with green mountain windows- that's out now yeah, but I'm going to read that I've read it.

A

I've already read it yeah and the removal of the chimney and the installation of hvac equipment as.

A

Per plans on file in the planning department said property shown on assessor map 101 as.

A

Lot 45 and lies within general residence b and historic districts. Welcome. Thank you. Jay pruitt.

AE

um So yeah we've pulled we're going to restore the existing windows. The only thing we're going to add.

AE

To that which I guess we can't do that tonight, but um the attic space we're gonna is gonna become a.

AE

Bedroom at some point so we're going to ask for an egress window in the attic space um you'll have.

A

To come back, okay, that's fine! That's what I told him simple, okay and then so yeah I'd still like to.

AE

um I guess you can vote on the chimney and the hvac equipment questions for the applicant.

G

um Just to clarify it's just that we're just talking about the chimney and the hvac in the.

G

Back of the condenser correct just want to make sure, can I just say something: does anybody have.

B

Anything else to say so, two points for me: one is kudos kudos to you, guys, kudos yeah.

B

He went back to his client and they're they're, restoring all the windows as a result of your.

B

Vote- and I know I told you that by email- but I I think similar to the wall discussion tonight.

B

Sometimes you win and it's a hard fought victory, but I I think that's important to remember.

B

When you're looking at these applications- and many of you know that, but it's important.

B

The second thing is with the casement window. This was presented to me today, as as what he had hoped.

B

To include in this application- and I suggested he would need to come back because we don't have any.

B

Details on that, but that I thought he could do it as an administrative approval. So it's not a.

B

New hearing, so I'm hopeful that is supported by the commission. That window could come back even.

B

Next week as an admin approval, if it's that simple, it's just a window, it's not putting in a gable or.

I

Dormers or no it's well, you could. You could have the option. It's they're they're, essentially gang.

AE

Windows, there's two of them in a little dormer that faces the side of the house, faces the garden.

AE

And um I could just do one of them or I could do both of them. Oh wait: do you see the details? Yeah.

C

Yeah, unless it's more usually yeah- and I mean we've seen these done in the green mountain- I.

C

Don't know if you're still gonna continue with the green mountain, so I think we're familiar with that.

C

So virtually bring that too, it's the same, very difficult to tell that it's even a casement yeah.

AE

It's a really good sound of a better photograph of where that's going to go yeah. I can do that.

B

And the detail sheet on that yeah I sent that to isaac okay at least I'll. Do it next week, okay,.

B

Already uh would anybody in there last time we were here we had there was some discussion and.

I

Some question about the chimney: I don't remember where that landed, we're showing support, and I was.

J

uh Waffling, I think we generally all came to the conclusion that this isn't like a.

C

A to me to die on, I don't remember, I mean um it's not a character, defining feature. There's.

C

A billing, in my opinion, yeah that was my opinion. It's almost a character, destroying feature. What.

A

um Any other discussion, I'm comfortable. Nobody, I'm happy.

A

There's no one in the public, so I'll close this public hearings wow. This is so easy. This should.

C

Have been led, this should have led the night. This is the easiest very entertaining. We have a motion.

C

The move that we approved um this as presented with without the windows.

I

Items one and two no two and three just say: chimney: yeah the chimney and the condenser unit.

C

And then the fact that any other um window changes will come back for administrative approvals.

L

Second, so all those in favor- and I want to get out of here too, but all right.

C

This has conservation, enhancement of property values.

C

um And has compatibility of design of surrounding properties.

H

Okay, so all those in favor say hi hi.

A

And it goes okay. Thank you very much. Thank you so moved second hi hi hi. Thank you for being patient.