City of Portsmouth, New Hampshire Land Use Committee, 7 Oct 2022

Previous Meeting Next Meeting

⏯

youtube image

►

From YouTube: 10.7.2022 Land Use Committee

Description

10.7.2022 Land Use Committee

A

Good morning, everyone and welcome to the friday october 7th land use committee meeting.

A

We are um sorry having a trouble with my voice this morning, we're gonna start by our review of.

A

The latest redline draft of our adu ordinance and discussion on that and um I'd just like to.

A

Start by saying, we've added some um comments to the way the ordinance is drafted, and these are.

A

Not the comments that are on the side and at the very beginning, are just there for informational.

A

Purposes to try to help explain exactly where those changes why those changes have been put.

A

Into place and we'll go through them and I'll have the staff will go through them, but I just.

A

Want to let you know when you're looking at it, the stuff to the side is just explanatory. It's not.

A

Actually part of the code so who'd like to start us off I'd, be glad to kick it off all right. So.

B

uh Good morning my news committee um and um and our guest today, I would like to just begin with.

B

uh Talking about what we heard last time and then I think I would pass it to rick to talk to really.

B

Talk about how we've the remedies and these sort of responses that we have to. I think many, some.

B

Really good comments. um We asked uh for uh to add the two bedrooms back in. I think we had taken that.

B

Out, there's been discussions back and forth the two bedroom limitation and, I believe, that's been.

B

Added in there was some questions about, you know, making a butters aware and we kind of work through.

B

Some uh trying to keep in mind the original directives of this are to try and remove barriers.

B

Where we can and balance that we did introduce um a new feature there to kind of uh create that.

B

um Informational awareness for abutting properties uh there's a question about.

B

uh Remedying the home occupation, language, to make sure that it was very clear who could.

B

um uh Operate a home occupation, how many could be on site there's some clarification.

B

On section 534 35, 10.534 535, I think that rich can talk to that and then I believe.

B

Think those are the big ones that I think yeah. I think those are the big ones that I have, but.

B

There might be some there's also some questions that brought up about having a really good adu.

B

Checklist and an adu handbook and helping folks to understand how they would go about getting this.

B

And so I don't know if you'd like to comment on that yep um so just to let everyone know beverly.

A

uh Has been working extremely hard with me to put in um at the end of september, we've put in for a.

A

Grant with new hampshire housing in that whole portion of money that they were given from the.

A

Governor's money- part of that was six grants that they're giving out across the state for what we're.

A

Calling what they're calling a community housing navigator position? It's a two-year position, a.

A

Two-Year grant we have put in for one of those and that specific person is going to be able.

A

To come in, if we're granted that and one write the handbook for the adu, because we should be.

A

Hopefully, getting close to the end by the time we get this person on board and ready to go so one of.

A

Their first things, they'll do, on top of being the person who's going to organize all of the.

A

Outreach with the city and all its residents plus, I think, sort of really keeping tacked into the.

A

Regional aspect of housing and really trying to help us focus and get through the next iteration.

A

Of changes that we're looking to make in phase three on top of that we're also putting in next.

A

Week, a grant for another for our consultant to be able to come and help us actually write. The.

A

um The changes that are in phase three, so we are looking forward to hopefully getting those grants.

A

I have very high hopes. We will. I have very high hopes that our housing community housing navigator.

A

Will also be able to help us, even through pha and work, to really help us direct and really.

A

Figure out where you know take that information that your organization has gathered and really.

A

Help us figure out what what's the right way to move forward. I mean part of that deliverable was.

B

That interagency and community coordination and coordination with the state, which is we.

B

Don't always have capacity for and that we always are trying to get a meeting and figure out how we.

B

Can you know better leverage um and identify, you know, ways to leverage, limited resources and so.

B

I think it would be good to have somebody who's like permanently. You know, at least for two years.

B

Dedicated to that purpose of coordination and that's how a lot of affordable housing projects.

B

Get done through those sort of collaborative processes on you know this there's capital.

B

Stacks can be very complicated on those projects, and so um uh I think we all are optimistic on both.

B

Grants and I'll be working monday to finish the second grant. So I even though we have a day off.

B

That'll be my uh my big project to work at home on so anyway. I would like to given that summary, and I.

B

um I'd like to invite also rick to mention any other things that I might have missed.

B

That because I didn't, I don't think I had a full exhaustive list of what we heard. But those are.

B

The big things I remember hearing sure well, thank you. um So, as you mentioned, we have this.

C

New introductory text in this handout that is really about the summarizing. Some of the reasons.

C

For some of the changes that we made and some of the themes that are in here but in the use table.

C

uh One of the changes, I think, probably the only significant change since the last meeting was.

C

On page two down at the bottom use, 1.222 and just the most complicated part of this is the detached.

C

Accessory dwelling units, and so before we had five different categories: we've folded that down to two.

C

Four categories: the first two 1.221 and 1.22- have to do with creating an access, a detached.

C

Accessory dwelling unit in an existing accessory building and the 1.222 is up to 600 square feet.

C

Where anything is unusual, it doesn't comply with an existing with a required dimensional standard.

C

Or requires any modification of a standard by the by the planning board, or it includes any expansion.

C

Of the existing accessory accessory building, so if, in this framework, if you have a accessory building.

C

And you're not you're, not expanding it at all and it's less than 600 square feet. The unit is.

C

Less than square feet, it would be allowed as of right in those or by administrative approval. In.

C

Those districts where it's shown as a p, if any of those conditions doesn't exist, it becomes a.

C

1.222 and that makes it a conditional use permit, and then these aren't changes from the last time.

C

But they're, just renumbered, 1.223 and 1.224 are accessory, build accessory dwelling units that are.

C

Up to 750 square feet to get a new building or up to a thousand square feet in a in a new building.

C

Or not complying with the dimensional standards, so these are just different categories. So, as I.

C

Say the first two are entirely within or within an existing building. The second two are new buildings.

C

um It's it's, it seems complicated compared to the existing ordinance, but it's really trying.

C

To target the regulations to specific types of situations um on page four there's a couple.

C

Of notes, um one there's a reorganization of the entire ordinance into a more logical sequence than.

C

We saw last time and we've created uh sub heads, the the ones that are that are point something.

C

Zero, like the first one purpose and eligibility. That's a that category of subhead didn't exist.

C

Before and it's really tried to help to group, to make this more logical and to find your way around.

C

The ordinance and then we have this new purpose statement which hasn't existed. We haven't had.

C

A purpose statement in the ordinance up until now- and this is really reflecting what's in the state.

C

um I'm not sure whether it's the state zoning act or the state, the state legislative statement, but.

C

The model act yeah, so it's it's a just trying to say why. Why we're doing this.

C

um I understand this in the next point: uh 10814.12 there's a recommendation.

C

From uh rick chapman to delete the words one and so that it now will say only one.

C

Accessory dwelling unit- um but that's that's not reflected in this text, but it can be made later.

C

um So going down through the ordinance most of the the um the notes on the side are not.

C

Necessarily reflecting changes from the last time, but they really kind of the cumulative.

C

Changes that we've made so far, but I'd like to point you to um skipping way ahead to page 11.

C

um And one of the discussions we had last time was whether the architectural design.

C

Section should be guidelines or standards and we've now changes to be standard, so these are.

C

Things that have to be determined by the planning director in the case of a p use and as a right.

C

Use or by the planning board. In the case of a conditional use and, um and it says that if.

C

There's another section further on that says that if the planning director finds that any.

C

Of these are not met it; actually, it gets bumped from a p used to a conditional use. So that's.

C

Just it's just making this much stronger the architectural standards then, on the next page.

C

Page 12 we've added a posting notice for the p uses. There's been a lot of discussion from.

C

Residents about notification, if, in the case where public hearing isn't required- and so this is this.

C

Language is actually modeled from the similar language in the site, plan, review, regulations and.

C

um So before a property owner applies for a building permit to create a an accessory.

C

Dwelling unit the owner has to post a notice about this on the property and then certify.

C

In the building permit application that the notice has been posted is required.

C

And then the next point, as I mentioned before, 814612 that's the place where, if the planning.

C

Director determines that any standard is not met, not just the architectural standards, but.

C

Any standard, then it goes to a conditional use permit and I believe those are the only.

C

um Substantive changes that were made since the last meeting, so I've missed something.

B

Okay- and we do have that caveat about the architectural standards, but the only things.

B

That would be allowed by with a planning director. Approval would be where there's really no new.

B

External construction anyway correct so it is it's a. I mean it's important to note that I don't know.

B

How often that would include any changes to the exterior, but generally it would always be with.

B

Existing an existing building did we talk, I don't know if you've added it about. Can I I'm going to.

A

Interject for one moment, because while you're talking about that one of corey's questions.

A

That came up and I think it's a fairly uh good one, because it's under permitted the detached.

A

To 600 square foot, so basically the old garden cottages, so one two two one.

A

um He put in it what about exterior changes such as addition of windows or doors lights,.

A

Etc, are these changes allowed without needing a conditional use permit? So I.

A

Think and that I think, that's a question that since you were just talking about that aspect,.

A

um I think we, as a committee, probably have to put into our thought process. You know, is that.

A

Considered a change that would be something that would trigger a conditional use. Are you talking.

C

About one two, one, one yeah adding a window, two two one, two, two one, two, two one: what about exterior.

A

Changes editions of windows, doors or lights uh the way this is written, that would be a permitted use.

C

It wouldn't require conditional use, but it would have to comply with the architectural standards.

C

If they didn't so, if it, if they did any of the, and we have rules about the windows and the doors and.

B

Other architectural features in the height of windows, close to property lines right. So it's.

B

There's still standards that are applicable for those that was just one of corey's three.

A

That kind of so into my issue, yeah, I thought it tied into that question so bring it up then.

A

All right, sorry, it interrupt were there two more from corey or there are actually more if you want.

A

To go straight to them, because I'm I'm done with the presentations okay, so the next one is under.

A

um 10.814436, so it's detached adus, it's about the 33 of any individual roof surface.

A

So his question was because I don't think we properly defined it or maybe based off the.

A

Way, it's written you'll tell me otherwise is an individual roof surface defined as a roof.

A

Plane, in other words, does a normal pitched roof have two individual roof surfaces, yeah.

A

Okay, yes, I I thought yes as well, based off having a better word. What I didn't look at.

D

The definitions in the back of the code, there is no definition, so there are no definitions.

A

Yeah, which one was that on uh eight one, four, four, three six, it's page 10 yeah.

A

I'm just gonna put yes, so that I can get back to him and tell him that as well.

A

But yeah, I thought the same thing: it'd be 33 on each side of a pitched roof would be my thought.

A

Process and then the next. His next point was on page 12 and that's uh eight one, four six one one.

A

And he says: how will homeowners ensure this? What this is waterproof and remains legible,.

A

In other words, the sign um will city provide waterproof plastic signs similar to fillable.

A

No trespassing signs that a homeowner can fill out, so I guess there was more of a question of.

A

How that signage would work so how it's normally handled and other jurisdictions is that we go.

B

Ahead and prepare the sign, they pick it up and post it and send evidence that it's been.

D

Posted and it's the demo review sign, which is not plastic. It's just a kind of some kind of sealer.

B

On it yeah and then it lasts for months number to call and there's make it through a rainstorm.

B

It could be so we would have to design that sign, but they would have to pick it up post. It.

B

And then uh I guess pay a deposit fee or whatever, and then if they want to resistance, it gets thrown.

D

Away or does it get thrown away one we use now we would do it probably the same way. Then. However, we.

B

Do it now did they have to provide evidence of it that they're, just photographic, okay,.

B

That it's been posted in uh and we usually give a map about- or we usually in other places, we've.

B

Given like direction about where we think it should be posted, do you do that for demolition committee? Or do you say it? That's why we get the photographed if we don't like what they put it.

A

There you go, that was all of cory's feedback, so moving on to people in the room.

A

Rich, do you have any questions or feedback, or I don't comments at this moment? No, do you think.

A

This sort of reframing of how we've reorganized it works. I do, I think it's a lot more clear. um You.

E

Know getting rid of the garden cottage, um I think I think we've. I think it's a lot easier to read. I.

E

Think it's a lot easier to understand and I think we're getting a lot closer to that right point. Yes,.

A

I think changing architecturals from guidelines to standards helps because then it allows us.

A

To use those as points of triggering needing a conditional use permit, so that was, and the big.

B

Comment that we have heard very often in public input is that guidebook or handbook, and I do think.

B

That could include some sample plans it just you know, I think we have. Potentially we could have.

B

That in there, but I think that will also bring it into an accessible place. Yeah comments, questions.

A

All right, if that is all with that, um it would be my intention that we would now.

A

Start to send this uh to the planning board, with all of the additional comments at the.

A

Way we have it set up so that they get all of that feedback as well, and the second part to.

A

Look at would be the assisted living proposals if you guys want to start and go through that.

B

This was also queued up as a part of the work plan to get this changed, recognizing that we have a.

B

Demand for these and looking at the limitations within the code about where these can be cited,.

B

I think one of the general places we started at is really understanding. You know how these really.

B

Are alike multi-family in many cases and and what just and they weren't allowed in many of the same.

B

Districts multi-family was allowed and then one of the other parts. One of the other exercises that we.

B

Did was really to take also a look at the intent statement for the zoning districts and really.

B

Understand recognizing that there may not be land available for many of these in many districts we.

B

Defaulted to, instead of looking at that really trying to understand is this appropriate for that.

B

District and the market um you know ultimately may, depending on the demand for these may, adjust you.

B

Know land can be assembled for the purpose, so does this work with the mix of uses in the district and.

B

um I think I'll kick it to rick to just talk about that sure. Thank you.

C

So the the table is basically the proposed. Zoning change is the third page here just highlighted.

C

But the first two pages are really the rationale for why each proposed change was made and as we.

C

Say the uh repaired, the um the two different types of assisted living facilities with the.

C

Corresponding scale of multi-family in the zoning ordinance so assisted living home, which allows up.

C

To five residents is paired with a three and four unit, multi-family development. So you know.

C

A four unit multi-family development might have eight to ten to twelve people living in it and.

C

Assisted living home up to five residents is clearly a smaller structure than that, but it's.

C

It might have the same type of impact or because it would be larger. Perhaps uh the you know a five.

C

A single family home, for example, could have five residents living in it, but an assisted.

C

Living facility for five residents would be larger than a single family home, so we tried to pair that.

C

With the small multi-family dwelling and then the assisted living center with six or more residents.

C

Was paired with the uh the five to eight and the more than eight multi-family dwellings? And so we.

C

Just went down through the use table and wherever, uh on the first page, wherever a small multi-family.

C

Three to four units is either allowed as of right or by a special exception. We looked at that and.

C

And considered that was a place where an assisted living home could be allowed in the same way and.

C

um In the gra and grb right now, multi-family three to four units is a special exception, use the same.

C

Is true for assisted living but, uh as I say, it's probably smaller than a three to four family.

C

Multi-Family, so we're suggesting that it be a lot as of right use and again. This is the example that.

C

I gave is the green guard residence on brewery lane, which is larger than a single family house,.

C

But comparable to a small multi-family dwelling in all the other zoning districts other than gra and.

C

Grv, what is being proposed is for the assisted living home to have the same use designation as.

C

The small multi-family and, in all cases it is a it would be as of right. Some in some cases.

C

Is currently allowed by special exception, in some cases it's not allowed, but- and those are more like.

C

The business districts, but we thought that that would be appropriate for the assisted living home.

C

Then moving to the next page, the assistant living center- and it says in the zoning.

C

Ordinances, six or more residents. But in fact, as I as I point out in the introduction.

C

um When you actually look at what is this type of facility, is, it tends to be much larger than six.

C

Or more residents it's the average bed capacity across the country in 2016 was 35 bids portsmouth.

C

We have edgewood center with 156 residents, clipper harbor with 102 residents, and then there are two.

C

Newer facilities in durham that have opened in recent years with 24 and 60 residents, so so.

C

um We're talking about much larger facilities than the six or more residents would suggest.

C

And so we've paired that with the multi-family five or more units and looked at that here and.

C

um So in most cases this is one of the cases where it's only allowed in a few zoning districts and.

C

The suggestion here is to not look at any of the not look at any of the single residents or.

C

The general residence age general residence b, uh but we're really starting the general residence c.

C

And uh if you're, currently in with multi-family, the five to eight units are allowed by special.

C

Exception, eight or more is not allowed, and the current assisted living center is not allowed.

C

And is proposed to change that to be a special exception, that's one of the areas that might be.

C

Subject to more discussion because it could be a larger facility and a very small district on the.

C

Other hand there are very few lots in the grc that could actually handle a large facility. So if that.

C

Happened here would probably be more in the six to eight or ten unit. 10 10 resident type of facility.

C

And then in the garden department, mobile home district and the cd5 cd4, the gateway, one gateway.

C

Two and the business then cd4w is proposed to have them all by allowed, as of right uh ex those.

C

Are the existing condition, so the changes that are being proposed are in the mro cd4l1 c4l2.

C

And mrb and in those cases it's uh proposed to go from not allowed to special exception.

C

So um I guess the the kind of the more significant changes well, some of them are are.

C

Significant across the board, but the ones that might be more sensitive, are in the the general.

C

Residence districts with the smaller, smaller lot sizes, etc. But that's those are the proposals.

C

Any questions, feedback.

A

um Pear yeah, no, I just noticed. I just want to clarify why the the.

E

um It's gone from permitted to non unless it's living center.

C

Oh um well, as I said, there's this is like the uh the spalding turnpike and the route 1 rotary.

C

And uh there are no, there are no multifamil out there, so it doesn't. It really make sense. So we're.

C

Talking about uh areas of fully developed as car dealerships and motel, and that kind of stuff, okay,.

A

C

Anything else you need, I hear I hear that and I think it's worth considering maybe uh beyond today.

D

Allowing with a special exception in some of those commercial districts, this is a multi-family.

D

Use but it's so drastically different from other multi-family uses in terms of the center, at least.

D

I'm just trying to think out where these things exist and they're often right near highways, where.

D

People can get on and off to see their in-laws they're frequently near interstates, where a lot.

D

Of these uh locations are in the gb, but anyway I wouldn't go to a p, but uh maybe especially right.

A

Now yeah, no, I say: maybe if we go to a special exception, so in what district in the one uh in the.

D

Gb is it the gb gb general business yeah? Well, it went from yeah, it's a piece so p to a no. So maybe.

A

Just make it a special exception: instead yeah I'm just suggesting that it keeps the door open, yeah.

E

I do think there could be some circumstance where a facility it could be suitable, yeah and probably.

D

Better thinking of this balding turnpike and what we've been looking at for the past 10 years.

D

um It hasn't been great for redevelopment or uh expansion of. What's there yeah.

B

Yeah that changed can be. I mean.

B

I get questions on that. We could certainly cue that a visit, a discussion item for the planning board yep.

A

Does anyone have anything else, otherwise, I'm going to open up the public. Anyone from the public.

A

Wishing to come forward and speak, please come just state your name and address for the record.

F

Wow good morning, elizabeth bradder property owner 159, mcdonough street.

F

um I guess I didn't get the memo that we're going to look at this too, and I would have appreciated.

F

It, having shown I'm not really sure what, um if the first column, is what exists and the second.

F

The third page, if you look at the third page, it shows you exactly the table. The changes.

A

Under assisted living, centers and assisted living right, okay, now I see it yeah yeah all right.

F

um So I'll look at that another day and send you a letter or something all right, so I thought I would.

F

Go through this line by line sort of, because that's how I did it. The table of uses thing.

F

And you guys can make notes or ignore me whatever you want to do so, we'll go to page two at the top.

F

um On the right side in the table of standards, sometimes there's.

F

Little footnotes that exist and I thought a footnote for 12 for one point, two one two.

F

Should include the maximum there it it says more than in addition to the expansion, so I.

F

Think that, as I read later on, there was a maximum of a thousand feet, a thousand square feet, and I.

F

Thought that should be listed there, but I'm not sure if you go down to a point one I'm at 1.221.

F

In this little footnote there should be something that says: a better notification is needed, because.

F

A lot of times when people see p, they say oh goody. I can do whatever I want, but that's not not true.

F

In this case, they do need better and notice. Could I just enjoy, for a second sure, go to the bottom of.

C

Page three: there is that note number two says it's a reference to that administrative approval and.

C

That's where it says about the notice. I hear what you're saying, but when I'm reading these I'm not.

F

Looking at that, most people don't even read your notes. um This would be a note in the right hand,.

C

Column you're going to put it in there all right, I'm sorry! I misunderstood that the notes were.

F

Going to be, I thought they're going to be at the bottom. No, it says in the supplemental regulations.

F

But again my thought was it needed to be that simple thing that.

F

About anyway, I just thought it should say there that about our notification is required.

F

um And that says, supplemental regulations, column blah. The idea is making it simple.

F

You've got a lot of other stuff in there um on page three one, two, two four.

F

It almost, and it could be just that- I'm misunderstanding: it.

F

But when I read this, it makes me think that.

F

It's a better deal to use the bottom one two two um yeah 1.224, then 1.223, and that may be.

F

Just how I understand it as a layperson, but it almost seems like I can go bigger. If I I.

F

Just build a whole new building, but it it's just how it how it reads to me so.

F

If you don't have a compliant builder, you can go up to a thousand square feet, but if.

F

You have a compliant building you your reward. Is you get to go to 750? It's almost like we're.

F

Rewarding people who are non-compliant so it's just something to think about.

F

So when you read that someone who complies they only can go up to 750 square feet, but.

F

Someone who's non-compliant can go to a thousand in many more districts, so the difference yeah the.

C

Difference is that you can't go up to a thousand square feet in grc or, uh mr you know, there's a.

C

Bunch of districts, you can't do it so it's more restrictive 1.224 is more restrictive in terms.

C

Of where you can do something, you've got to be on a large lot: yeah right, okay, all right yeah! That's.

F

Fine alrighty, um so I just wanted to remind you because we're going to go further down the list.

F

And you're going to find out what I have to say. But this the specific purpose of adding allowing.

F

Adus and we're the purpose that the city council gave for doing this was to increase, affordable.

F

Housing all right, so that's the the purpose. Okay, so I'm going to go further along on that. I just.

F

Thought the um ten eight one four point, one three and I'm not really sure if this is a legal thing.

F

um It should include all so, it says in order for a lot to be eligible for accessory drawing.

F

Unit the lot and all existing structures, I think it should say there and all proposed structures.

F

In addition to the existing threshold conform, so it's almost like the wording seems a little.

F

Odd to me, but that's yeah, it's what was in the existing code. We haven't actually.

A

Changed it yeah is a suggestion to this is all existing and proposed structures. In addition to.

C

Existing structures is that, right I mean it's. It's all proposed structures and additions to.

A

Existing it's not right. It's! I just think the wording is odd. Just to me, I think it's meant.

F

To be existing and proposed structures with any additions, uh yeah, it's it's hard to make it. I.

A

Understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure that there's so I wrote this. I can take a look.

E

At it, yes, all existing, and but the thing about it is that the additions many existing would be.

B

Non-Conforming and so far the position has been, the additions must conform, but it would make an.

B

Eligible many of the garden cottages which are already encroaching, so it is a it does actually.

B

Create a new barrier, the idea was that, if you are expanding, which would already be kicked.

B

Into a variance and a cp that you would have to go through those processes to expand, but we do have.

B

Structures that already exist in the setbacks and in you know that so that I think that it.

B

That actually puts up a barrier. That's not there. Right now, like I said it was just the reading was.

B

On it is kind of worded oddly and I think yeah I think that's true for a few things yeah, it's just.

B

The idea is to make it more simple and if you're going to fix all of this stuff, you might as.

F

Well, yeah one thing and I I get I know I think I understand that, there's a way to simplify that as.

B

We're trying to work on maybe getting a a digital code, or we can put notes for the community to help.

B

You know some explanatory notes, as part of it yeah like what we have on the side here, yeah that would.

B

Be help folks understand how to interpret sections that might be helpful, so it could be also part of.

A

The handbook yeah that would be really good, so I at the top of page five, is in blue, not.

F

Withstanding the the above the combination, the principle dwelling you and the assessor does not.

F

Need to comply with the minimum lot standards per, so I read that and I'm pretty familiar with.

F

Sounding and I was like, I have no clue what they're talking about so again, the point being.

F

That this is supposed to be able to be understood and to me you're talking about the principal.

F

Dwelling unit, the the accessory dwelling, the lot area, the dwelling unit, the the minimum lot area so.

F

There, it just seemed really confusing to me, and I didn't know if there was a way to make that better.

B

Be easier I mean- and this is not technical language, but you know for the purposes of.

B

This section the accessory building and this and the uh prime the principal dwelling unit, shall be.

B

Considered a single dwelling unit because I think that's what we're trying to say. But it is what's.

A

In the side yeah yeah, I think yeah yeah, but but what I'm saying is when you read that that's not.

F

Exactly what you I think, you're just like it's a lot of gibberish. I should read it a couple times.

B

Too, I knew we were trying to get it yeah, but you knew what you were doing, because you know.

F

You know code, I'm reading that and I'm going I'm pretty good with this, but I don't understand this.

C

um You know you know just just to be. um We could delete the last phrase uh that was.

C

That was kind of the problem to just just just delete, but must comply with the minimum lot area.

C

Of the district, because that I mean it's kind of a peculiarity of our code is we have two columns for.

C

um For minimum lot area, we've got minimum area minimum per dwelling unit, so would it help you.

C

If we deleted but must comply with the minimum lot area for the district, I think that would.

C

Be helpful, I mean, I think the whole thing is about lot area and when you look at when you.

F

Go to that section in the requirements. um If you look at the section in the choir that you.

D

Have to meet the minimum lot size that confuses me a little bit because then I'm saying are we.

D

Sorry about that, are we throwing that out going to be eligible? Well, it's it's because we have.

C

That, because we can look at it, the professionals can decide what they want to do, that. That change.

B

Makes me think, oh well, so it doesn't apply yeah, but it still does apply it just right.

B

So I guess let's look at it, you can look at it and decide how to word that there's a sister.

F

Dwelling on it, but it is not created within it. So um ten, eight one four one, one at one: three three.

F

Says is talking about I'm it. It makes the reference. If you read the thing on the right.

F

It makes perfect sense when you read what's being presented. um I wasn't sure about that.

F

Is not created within an existing accessory drill and is not an accessory dwelling unit.

F

It is not a necessory building for the purposes of this ordinance. um I was like okay. So what are.

F

We talking about, but when you read the merging of the two, then it makes sense. So I didn't know.

C

The reason that's there is because there was a chain after we adopted the original.

C

Ordinance there's a change made in 2018. I think that said that a detached accessory.

C

Dwelling unit is not an accessory building for the purpose of this ordinance, and so, if.

A

We didn't have that phrase in there. We wouldn't need this okay right right, that's the problem.

A

Accessory buildings and accessory dwellings are two different. Two.

F

Different things, and do we have that in the definitions? Yes, okay,.

F

And then I had a concern about the side and the rear yards, because those are usually the.

F

Biggest issues for neighbors, you know if you're on a one one acre lot: the side yard.

F

Is usually where the house is, um that's all has to do with positioning of a house, so I.

F

Have a one acre lot on clinton street the next door. Neighbor's house is right next to mine,.

F

um Because they parallel up because of the street frontage, the whole design thing that nick likes.

F

You know they all line up in a little room, um so my concern is: is that for for those type of lots.

F

The side yard and the rear yard are the most important, especially the side yard, so what they.

F

Put next to my property that I have a one acre lot on is very important to me. So right now my.

F

My neighbor added a garage into my setback, but um she got permission. Don't worry, we'll talk.

A

About it later so, but I'm just saying that really for me, the big issue is when you're on a one acre.

F

Lot or a five acre lot and the houses all line up in the front to give you that street front.

F

It's the side, that is the issue and although it says, if you add, um but you can have a garage and.

F

Then you can add into that garage uh an accessory dwelling looted on the upper floor, but your garage.

F

Already encroached in the neighbors, so it's a non-conforming use, but you still have to think.

F

About that right to the side, so this is this is partly because of the garden cottage issue, so.

C

Yeah we're saying right now, if you have a garden cottage yeah, which is what you're talking about.

C

Because it's in an existing garage and you're adding onto the existing garage that can that.

C

Has a different setback requirement than the principal structure. So what we're saying here.

C

Is so the existing ordinance has everything in black correct right, so the existing ordinance.

C

Says that a detached accessory dwelling unit that you're creating that is not created in.

C

An existing accessory structure, an existing garage, has to meet the side and rear setbacks.

C

For a principal dwelling unit, and so that's so if somebody's building a new structure, but it.

F

Says not and a principle and not the side rear, so so this is the side and rear yard.

C

Standards for an accessory building are closer to your lot line than the side and rear yard.

C

Standards for a principal structure, so, if you're, if you're, not if you're, building a new structure.

C

um It seems it seems like it would have been easy to combine these two things, but it becomes.

C

uh Somewhat complicated, um if you're, if you're, building a new structure, then you have to comply.

C

With the side and rear crst yard standards, as if it were a single primary single family, duality.

D

It's more than 100 square feet, which is anything bigger than a garden shed right right and so. Okay.

D

I see what you're doing so you're differentiating differentiating okay yeah. That makes sense.

C

It's sad to me that I understood that too, um so I just thought on 10 18 81422 that the minimum that.

F

Maybe perhaps lists the minimum requirements either the principal dwelling unit accessories.

F

Shall be occupied by the owner principle, the owner, who shall provide documentation.

F

To the city of the number of units.

F

For his place of residence, yeah the satisfaction of the city that one of the units is his or her.

A

Principal place, arrested, okay, I don't know why. I wrote that oh, what I wanted to see was the.

F

Documentation required documentation the minimum documentation to show that you're living there.

F

What is it now? Because this is an existing? It's just a certification that they that they upload.

B

That we upload to viewpoint, but I would say that there's been discussion about making it a deed.

B

Restriction and um if that, if it's operated as an adu, that it has to be owner, occupied, wanted one or.

B

One of the units um and that has been thrown about- we didn't include it, but I think it's still at.

B

Play I don't because it hasn't been chasing down. The uh affidavits or voluntary affidavits has been.

E

Right, that's been it's it's an extra level of work on the part of staff, so I think, um like so many.

B

Things I think that could be considered and I it's done in other jurisdictions, because I've seen it.

A

And um I would suggest it's probably a good idea so that, when it's being sold, I know staff would.

B

Be relieved to see that because it is if it's a deed restriction, it's it's a little bit more.

A

Straightforward and yeah, it could be that if it is operating as an adu that it would have to be that.

B

It would have to be deed, restricted, and I think that that would make a lot of sense, and I think it.

B

Would be a little bit of a important because down below the next one, the ones for trusts is actually.

F

Says shahada principal place of residence of the benefit, I mean that's really specific. That's that.

F

That covers it, and I said the one above, which is the one which is going to be more lucrative for.

F

People needs to be done so that was that all right, so 10 8 14.23, no purpose to increase the housing.

F

Okay, so this is this is my stick that I want to take out of here. I want this completely removed.

F

um Because which one again ten eight one, four two three, two: three: okay, because what you're.

F

Doing is you're, so if I wanna, if I want to add an addition to my garage and put it and put a a.

F

Unit on top that I'm going to use as my office, I have to follow very specific rules and regulations.

F

But what this says is you won't have to follow those rules, if you put put it under an adu, follow.

F

The adu things and then I turn it into my office and now I have a little dance studio or whatever.

F

You want to put in there that falls under that I mean the the person who spoke last time said that.

F

He has his business and his wife has a training business in his home and it would be great to put.

F

An office into to create an adu and do that and the purpose of the adu being streamlined and being.

F

Able to be permitted under certain circumstances was not to create offices but to create housing.

F

Units and to me it is true that legally you can put in a housing you you can put in a home.

F

Occupation on your property, but if you present it as an adu, it should stay as an adu or you.

F

Should have to follow the rules or regulations of adding onto your garage, but that's adding a.

A

Business, this is just a home occupation, so this is someone working from home and you couldn't.

C

Ask right, but that's again, we put there that all home occupation, all the home occupation standards.

B

Shall be applicable, I mean because that step, I don't think this is it's waving that so I think.

C

And I think the thing to say about this is that the you can't you couldn't under this provision.

C

Create as detached accessory, I'm sorry detached home business because you actually have to have.

C

Your home occupation use in the unit that the owner occupies and is limited to what 25 percent.

C

Of the floor, or something like there's, some there's some limitation in the ordinance about.

C

What a home occupation is, so you, actually, if you created an accessory dwelling unit and you didn't.

C

Live actually in that accessory dwelling unit, you couldn't put it according to this, you couldn't.

C

Put a home occupation and if you did, it would be really small yeah right right. Okay, good all right.

F

You can't have it, you can't have a separate you. This does not allow you to have a home occupation.

C

That is not in the unit that you occupy right: okay, yeah all right because to me it said I can.

F

Build an adu, I can call it an adu and then I can move my office in there yeah, but this is different.

C

Actually, which is different than this, prevents that I build my garage and I add a room on top.

F

And I get permission to meet those setbacks for that. You can't do that. Yep all right. Okay,.

F

um And in regards to septic systems, I I said it goes with new hampshire.

F

Water supply blah blah blah, but does that include a consultation with the dpw at all.

F

Because I know in some jurisdictions people who have septic systems they're questionable.

F

And the city can't cities can't get to those, because there there's no.

F

Reason for them to, but if you add an adu to a septic system that might be in poor condition,.

F

um This would be an opportunity to protect the waterways from that, just something to think about.

B

So I think I think, there's some protections in place for that um liz. I think that we now I mean.

B

If any of you came forward to the cup and if they were expanding that we would always add something.

B

That you have to go ahead and get a permit through npdes for the design and then ultimately and then.

B

They also do a follow-up to review the as built, so there is a process and we typically include.

B

That when we see expansion occurring where there is on-site septic, okay, so it's it's a well. I just.

F

Didn't see it in there and that's you know, the objective is not to leave a loop require when.

B

We see an expansion on a site that surf by on-site subjects, and so the last one is just about um 10 8.

F

14 3 2 and if I remember correctly, the reason we were going up to a thousand feet, that's a pretty.

F

Big unit um was because of um okay bigger lots, so it's only a lot in the bigger lots: yeah, okay,.

F

So 10, on page eight, ten, eight eight one, four three, three three.

F

So I wanted I'm all I'm all about height and my concern. Is there there's nothing in there and.

F

It may be somewhere else about what's allowed in that particular zoning. So a lot of um gras.

F

Have have pretty low ceilings on their height and they're, measured to the bottom of the roof.

F

So if I remember correctly midpoint on the roof, so my concern was that it doesn't seem.

F

To say and hear that you also have to meet the zoning requirement, a height requirement for the.

F

Zoning that you're in what does that say in the beginning? Okay, good and that's part of the list.

F

Of you have to follow all the rules, so ten eight one, four four one. I I don't think there's a 1.225.

A

Oh because we changed in the table, where are we page eight last one yeah, so we took out one two.

A

Two five, so you need to make that one two two four now: okay, yes, great good catch! You know we.

A

Make so many changes to so many of these things. I know it's, okay, that's why I read them. Sadly,.

F

um So, on page nine we're just going through here, it's so it's! Let's do four one two! I just thought.

F

You could reword that to say in- and this is just my idea- you know in no case shall a dadu created.

F

From an existing accessory building, which does not comply with minimum yard requirements for.

F

Principal structure be larger than 600 feet. Gross area, there's just seems very wordy there.

F

um And then for two I'm doing the editing on you, a dadu that is created.

F

From an existing non-compliant accessory building.

F

For the minimum yard, requirements for a principal structure shall comply with.

F

Additional requirements- that's just my you know, say that again he's just moving where comply.

F

Goes so I wrote so I wrote a dadu that is created from an existing non-compliant accessory building.

F

Get rid of all that other stuff for the minimum yard requirements for a.

F

Principal structure shall comply with the following additional requirements:.

F

You can type it up and I'll give it to you later and then you can look at. It sounds more complicated to me. But okay, I was thinking the same.

F

Thing, that's because you understand all that stuff in between there.

F

So the last part of uh four two one on page nine- I didn't see it in. I have a 2015 zoning book, but.

F

It says, except that the planning board may be, may grant a conditional use permit to allow the gross.

F

Flurry of an ancestry building to be expanded to 600 to a total of 600 square feet. um So what came.

F

To mind was: um is some of the some of the houses have the old cottage, the old um garden cottages.

F

And do we really want people to expand those or to continue to use them as a garden cottage and the.

F

Reason I say that is: I have an old fishing shack on one of my properties and my neighbor doesn't.

F

Like it, but it's too bad for him, because all the people who've lived there all their lives. Remember.

F

That shack being put out on the water, so I keep it in its original form, with the shake shingles.

F

And stuff like that, but my concern is, is if you allow someone to to enlarge the footprint of a.

F

Garden cottage, are you there, they may not be in an hdz dc zone, but it it just seems like it would be.

F

Ashamed to do that, I'm just saying something that nick can think about for a while, because it's.

F

Gonna a lot we had a neighbor do a garden cottage in our grc loan and she kept it just like it is on.

F

The outside, but it looks cute, I mean liz. I think that works if they're, if they're big enough a lot.

D

Of garden cot remember, garden. Cottages are not right, but this is right, but they're allowing them.

F

To get bigger, they're allowing them to build yeah, the complaint was: is that a lot of these are being.

A

Used and they need more space for adu aspects, and so that's why we said they could go up to at least.

A

What the maximum is, if the existing structure is smaller, and that was the reasoning behind it was.

A

To try to be more flexible for those that might need a little bit more space for adu compliance.

A

It would be conditioning yeah, it's a conditional use pyramid, okay, yeah, all right. Let's see.

F

Okay, so, in the same thing with the architectural standards, I appreciate all of them being put in.

F

There and very specific but again old cottages, don't necessarily look the same as new as.

F

Buildings that have been recited and stuff, so I didn't know, but I think that's also a cup in.

F

There but the architectural design, sometimes you might want to leave it well. They're, also part of.

A

Even if it's permitted, if they're going to make some sort of change that is allowed, it has to.

A

Be within that okay, we talked about that at the beginning, so page 12. So I'm going to tell you my.

F

Story now so I have property on clinton street and the house next door to ours said we're going to.

F

Rebuild the house: that's there. We want to know if you're going to give up five feet of the setback.

F

So I said sure no problem and then a few weeks later I saw a sign on their garage. I couldn't.

F

See it, but I thought it had to do with the fact that they were going to demolition the side of.

F

The house to put in this garage I couldn't get to the sign because it was at the end of their. It was.

F

On their house, which sits back about 25 or 30 feet now I'm farsighted, but I I did not understand or.

F

See that sign as a close basis. So I'm thinking the sign thing doesn't work because I was horrified.

F

When my tenant called me to tell me that the house next door is going is completely gone,.

F

So I really feel strongly that notification of people who live on each side of their.

F

Property across the street next door and behind them should be done by mail.

F

They could have some kind you could. The city could have some kind of write-up or whatever and then.

F

They they, the person asking for the adu, should have inside the letter uh an addressed envelope.

F

To the city to the planning department, with the application number or whatever, then I know when.

F

You go to get a permit. You have a number with an application number on the outside of the envelope.

F

And it should be stamped by the person sending it so that those replies to those letters go directly.

F

To the planning department, so that there is no the guy next door is on vacation. While you have.

F

Your sign up and they get back from vacation and they don't notice your sign. I really feel strongly.

F

That, if anybody's going to make this kind of a change, that's going to change the you know a lot.

F

Of people spend a lot of money to live in a single family home area because of that. But these notices.

A

Are only for uses that are permitted, so it's no outside changes, so it says attached or detached.

A

Right so we allow some detached, but the building the structure that somebody's going into is.

A

Already there right, but you didn't have somebody living there before it was just a garage. Now you.

F

Have somebody living next door to you, so that's it's a whole different feel. I think the idea is.

B

That it does allow for a challenge, so it you know if there is a. I think when we kick this around.

B

uh It was trying to see how do we process. You know direct public comments if they're submitted.

B

To the director and there's not really a response for them, but we want to that's. This is a barriers.

B

We've removed I'd say that we've introduced a lot of standards that really sort of clarify how they.

B

Should look clarification of the the the way? It's that I think the improvements to the structure.

B

Have been better, I think, there's been a lot of new protections put in this is probably one of the two.

B

Barriers that it's only for things that are not growing in their footprint, we struggle with how.

B

The director or the planning staff, because it usually is the planning staff that works on it.

B

Wouldn't deal with those public comments, and so this became a way to give an opportunity for a.

B

Challenge because there should be, people should be aware if they would like to challenge that.

B

Administrative decision and it was to create that opportunity for an administrative challenge, but I.

F

Don't think you're going to know it it's going on, we can add language about, should be prominently.

B

Displayed to the traveling public, I mean, and I can just say on clinton street that did not go through.

D

Through the demolition review committee, because it went through the board of adjustment, but.

D

Thankfully, I hope the city council fixes the error we made a few years ago in exempting projects from.

D

The demolition review committee that had been to the planning board or the the voa, because this is.

D

How it these things slip through the cracks, don't get the big sign, that's not easily missed. That has.

D

To be posted in a conspicuous place with evidence submitted that it's been posted, that was not the.

D

Clinton street experience because again it went through the boa. So I don't even know what kind of.

D

Sign if any was ever required, it wouldn't be for demolition. So I can't think of another city side.

D

Right other than the building permit, that's this big and goes in a window right and that's not what.

D

We're talking about here the science, but I'm just saying your table right, but they had that kind of.

F

Sign on st patrick's school and it worked because it was right, it was right next to the sidewalk. We.

D

Had it on the kerry cottage, which is a mile off the road right, and it worked as we put one out.

D

On little harbor, we put one out on little harbor as well. I, like I said my concern, is that if, if.

F

You go on vacation when the sign goes up. You may not realize that sign is there. So I really feel.

F

Strongly that it should be notified by mail you're talking about four people front back.

F

And two sides and they I'm sure, will tell their neighbors if they don't like it. But it's a very.

F

Big difference to me as someone who lived in a grc, neighborhood and liza lived next door, and we.

F

Literally could hear each other what we said in you know you can, if you're having a conversation.

F

In your house, you can hear it, so that's a big difference between having a single family home so.

B

This is one other thing I want to introduce part designs, because it is a standard practice of it.

B

Is that it does tend to invite a broader response at times, because everyone in the traveling public.

B

Can say what's that right so often the signs, I'm surprised we didn't do signs here, but I.

B

Think the answer is that we do a broader, a better notification than the state requires.

B

um In uh in portsmouth, and that I thought maybe was the trade-off there, but the signs tend to.

B

Reach a broader range of people, because they so the butters are the most notable. The most obvious.

B

People and it's hard to miss a big sign in your neighbor's yard, but I think they always notice.

B

If the house is for sale, believe me that travels to the neighborhood, bigger than anything so that.

B

Never seems to that's usually on the neighbors on the entire neighbor's on fire when that sign.

B

Goes up, but I would say that it reaches a broader range and it does create for the planning staff.

B

Although the planning director is listed a pretty high bar that the modificat, the standards have to.

B

Be applied pretty faithfully or pushed up to the planning board. It does everybody who drives down.

B

That street will see it can call if it's on the edge of the street. We agree that we all want to.

B

See to see in a prominent place, they have to give us notification that it's readable and show us.

B

That it is so it I think, in a way, it can be at times a more effective way to notify the public.

B

Then I would like to have it added that this this directed voters be notified. The director well, the.

F

Director matters be notified and that the sign is at the edge of the street edge. It says it's.

C

A perimeter perimeter of the site, so it couldn't be posted on the house, but we'll look at the demo.

D

Review committee, language that might be a little more specific or different and yeah well, this is.

C

A site plan review language, so it should be the same thing. Oh don't count on that. Yeah.

F

Sure did the neighbors that tore down the house come talk to you no before that. No one.

F

Literally, no and and they didn't talk to our tenants either they work from home, so they.

F

Didn't talk to them either, so I know no, and I know the tenants, the neighbor on the other side.

F

Was just as horrified so? No it it's! It all sounds good on paper sign of the times. That's right! Any.

F

Other feedback is worse now um I just I'm sorry, I'm sorry to have gone through it line by line.

F

um I thought that subordinate should be defined and um I'm looking at the definitions, I didn't see.

F

That this I don't know if subordinate is defined. I didn't look that up. I didn't have enough time.

F

Before I came, and the roof surface thing I think is defined in the ordinances. Is that correct, nick.

F

Because you guys talked whatever the definition is in the ordinance, if there.

D

Is one we'll it will be consistent with the dormer requirement? Yeah, okay, yeah already.

F

Yeah uh before planning board- I don't know we haven't made that decision yet right because I was I was.

F

At the meeting where the people got the one on um on the court on by barnaby lane that one and the.

F

And the neighbors had a lot of important things to say about that, and I lived down the street for.

F

Over 35 years of the of the whites um boarding house, as well as the brewster street boarding.

F

House, it was just down the street before you moved in and it was nice neighborhood and it does have.

F

A big impact I've been there since 2002., oh yeah. I thought you moved in after that. Oh no! No! Oh that's!.

E

What you were across the year, so you remember her story, so I think that that some assisted living.

F

Places but they all come with people who have to take care of the people who are there. So if.

F

You have five residents, you have five caregivers, so there becomes a big parking issue and there.

F

Becomes a lot more people than you necessarily think about. That's not actually the case. The.

A

Caregivers there's I can they don't stay there, but they come and pick up people and do things like.

F

Stuff like that, people come and go, but regularly. If you're talking about people that are on site.

A

It's usually like two to like 16 people, so yeah um it would wouldn't be five people for five people.

F

Five people are coming and going through your neighborhood, unlike when you have a nursing.

F

Home you have the staff that comes in at seven o'clock. You have the staff that comes in at.

F

Three o'clock: you have the staff that comes in at 11 o'clock. Those are all those all impact, a.

F

Neighborhood in a very different way, I like the idea of the spawning turnpike, though thank you.

A

You might need to shorten up the time to let people I just want to know. I.

B

Have to I have to leave at 10 30., so I just want to make note of that before.

G

I'll try um liza hewitt, 726 middle road.

G

um I want to thank you. I know you've put a lot of work into this and I know that you've listened.

G

um As well, um I've met with nick a couple of times and he was very patient with me.

G

Explaining things I probably have a couple more questions, but um a couple of comments so.

G

I appreciate you putting in the intent I saw it, and I've been asking for that for months.

G

I have a little bit of a concern about the intent and the way it's worded, so I'm all.

G

For this section can address the housing needs of a range of community members, correct great.

G

Standards in this section are intended to integrate affordable housing into the community.

G

With minimal negative impact on the surrounding neighborhood, I just wonder how you can justify.

G

Saying that I think that makes a great splash headline for the portsmouth herald. Let me finish.

G

Before you say anything, um I don't think that it's realistic. um I I think that we'd all like.

G

To think yes, they're going to be less expensive than what's that would uh what's at west end yards.

G

And that may or may not be true. But when I look at the fact- and this is just if that adu cost you two.

G

Hundred thousand dollars to build, which I guess it could conceivably cost you um and you're looking.

G

At getting your money back in five years, I mean you know, that's realistic, right! You're, going to.

G

Be charging thirty three hundred dollars a month that to me- and I think mr welch would agree- is.

G

Is not deemed affordable housing and I think you know we do this a lot we throw out affordable and.

G

I 3300, I don't think, would qualify anywhere as affordable, but I think it's realistic to think.

G

That people are not going to be putting that much money into an adu and then out of the goodness of.

G

Their heart charging eighteen hundred dollars a month, so I I think again, splashy headline great.

G

But I I just I just would encourage you to really think about putting this right in here. This is.

A

Actually comes directly from the state model that came out. This was their exact intent on the state.

A

Level as to why to do accessory dwellings, so we didn't come up with this language. I just basically.

A

Took what they wrote and took out some of the detail that I thought was unnecessary other than.

A

That this is truly not our language, it's language straight from the state. Maybe we should say.

E

That the term affordable housing- I know it gets confusing. All that means is someone can afford it.

E

It doesn't mean any specific individual, it doesn't. You know, I mean you can't you can't define it.

E

Anymore, it just means that someone can't afford it. It is more affordable than something else. I think.

B

Some of them start out as units that do support family members, and then they think it may. It could.

B

Add value to maybe they resell the house uh we do see. You know, I think that they're, you know we.

B

Have seen applications for them, so I think uh I think they start out one way. Sometimes they can.

B

Be a different way, and I think that we need to be supportive of that, because, because somebody.

B

Lives in that type of unit doesn't mean they're, not the kind of neighbor their their neighbor.

B

That we wouldn't want to have, we can have a bad neighbor in any kind of unit. So I I do think that.

B

um That there's lots of reasons why people might do that. Do it maybe to generate some additional.

B

Income, maybe also, I think, I've seen also that the principal primary resident, who is the aging.

B

Person might move into the adu and then the larger house gets rented and it creates an opportunity to.

B

To basically age in place for that person, so I think we we there's a range of uses that these.

B

Provide for the community, it diversifies the housing stock, so that is one of the other goals.

B

Is diversification right and, and I'm all for that I mean I'm not against adus anybody. I am.

G

Not against, I don't use, um and that would be the first it. It addresses the housing needs of a range.

G

Of community members, that's great! That's the next part yeah that I that I have a little bit of an.

G

Issue with that's all um liza can I just respond, because I was the one that blurted out when liz.

D

Said something about uh the the uh main objective or the the objective? And I didn't know where you.

D

Were coming from, but it's this paragraph, so I apologize for saying it's a, but my position has.

D

Been from the beginning, it's a priority to address housing, affordability, we've had this conversation.

D

We have, I would personally reword this to say something like the purpose of the sections.

D

Provide for additional modest weling units within single-family neighborhoods in order to colon a.

D

Increase the supply of smaller, more affordable housing without the need.

D

For more infrastructure or further land development b to meet local housing needs.

D

Or c provide opportunities for adaptive, reuse of existing buildings accessory buildings. This.

D

Is multifaceted so if this is the state language, the housing inventory yeah and all of that, I think.

G

Is good, I just yeah. It's a good point. I think I agree, I think not just affordable housing. I.

G

Think- and I don't think you can assume again, I don't think that you can assume cdus are going.

G

To be affordable, I just don't think I think it's a mistake to put it into your ordinance.

G

um So another question: I was confused it, the the the the the current ordinance talks, a lot.

G

About minimum lot area- or it talks about it, I had a hard time finding it in here, but it.

G

Sounds like you're going to be looking at that, because that's what liz brought up so great.

G

um I love the qualification have to say of entire building, um adding that definitely.

G

Was an improvement? What is that um just in in general, when you talk about you know the building.

G

Footprint, you know all of that, um not just yes, not that might be. That might be the hewitt amendment.

G

Lord knows that I've mentioned it a few times um tried to tackle that one, so the build it.

G

The building footprint two thousand square feet that includes the garage is that correct.

E

Or is that only living which number sorry yeah? We we look at this so much. We don't.

A

So it's on uh page ten, four, three: five! Yes, that 2 000 square feet, because I was.

G

Trying to figure out if it didn't hire oh yeah, that's the entire yeah, the entire building. Okay,.

A

G

um So I just brought a just a brief show and tell because um being a preschool educator, that's what.

G

I do so. This is 26 square feet. This is 26 feet high. This will be what looms over my backyard.

C

How big is that building uh it's about 4 000 square feet so that doesn't that is, will not.

C

Be it that would not twice the size. These are too late. Yes, but these responding exactly, but that's.

G

Why I'm bringing it won't, be that wouldn't happen so this, but but it is 26 yeah, 26., okay, feets hall.

G

These I took from around town is that the allowed height in your zoning district, no, it's 35.. It's.

A

Six inches lower than the principal building: okay, four inches, but who's counting. um So you can't.

G

Remember these this was taking um on um off of austin street, I mean it's bigger, it won't be able.

G

To be this big, but the roof is it's not three stories high right? This to me is a three-story.

G

High building this um is off of greenland greenland avenue again, you can see that it's not.

G

This tall, but this tall is what you're proposing and I it's actually what we're allowing not what.

D

We're proposing you know, people could build any of the ones you've just shown. Yes, that's.

D

The ceiling not the floor, I know, but I don't want this to be the ceiling. There's a lot just saying.

G

Don't a lot of other things to keep. I want this to be the ceiling, so I'm going to leave these.

G

For you, I know you'll probably already have it nick, but um I really hope that you will.

G

Look at that 25 feet again, because nobody should have this across the driveway booming over their.

G

Backyard 25 feet is very high when nothing is there existing. So please look at that.

G

Still have some problem with administrative agree.

G

uh Approval just have to put that out on the airwaves. um The public notice.

G

uh We were away when this was proposed. I had to come back to travel back from my vacation.

G

To speak at this meeting, if you are going for um a thing at the end of of the driveway or wherever.

G

You're going to put this, um I think the perimeter you know I don't want to nitpick, you could put it.

G

On the perimeter in your backyard, nobody be able to see it. So you, you need to be very specific.

G

About where the perimeter is and where that's going, we're hearing that loud and clear, I think.

A

um We'll double check I like it, I like the thought that you will put a butter front.

G

Back side side and send it by certified mail, I think that's only fair um and.

G

It does not state how long it needs to be sitting out there, so it says before the approved it.

G

Has to be out there before the approval, that's confusing to me, so is that you know yeah before.

C

The application before the application, that's what it says: okay, so what if they actually appeal the.

A

Building permit what, if the application yeah. But what is the period of length so once it's.

B

Approved, I think we I mean we would so how long are you leaving it out there I mean.

G

Typically, once we see the application it's 30 days, I mean that's a pretty typical standard.

G

Can you put 30 days think about we, don't we're going to look at the language of the other and.

D

Make just thinking like a half an hour, you know I mean I just want to make sure, because I'll.

G

Be honest with you we're hearing over and over again that, and you brought this up um a butter, a.

G

Butters are not being spoken to, neighbors are not talking to neighbors. My neighbor did not did not.

G

Show this to us um it we just got in a butter's notice. um You know it's happened in other meetings,.

G

That I've watched on television, where neighbors are concerned that they have not it. You know it's.

G

Not been brought to them, so how can we make sure that this is happening? I think that's only fair.

G

If these are going up, um you know you need to make sure people are informed and, however, you.

G

You can do that certified mail, front, back side, side and the the person flying has to pay for.

G

It I mean, what's you know, what's that gonna be 10 bucks, so I think the only thing that.

B

We've really struggled with how to manage the comments, but it could be that they're.

B

Notified of their rights for administrative appeal- I don't know we could talk about that.

B

um Because it's when the comments come in then, if there's not a forum to address those, so there has.

B

To be a faithful execution of the standards, and if there isn't, you know a sense that, for my part, if I.

B

Wasn't sure I would just take it as a cp, I would take it up, but I think when we, the the what we're.

B

Trying to do is make sure that they were aware and could challenge the decision, and that puts.

B

A level of rigor on staff to make sure that we have a faithful explanation of how the standards.

B

Have been met, uh the challenge would at that point would be a you know, a tough case to make if we say.

B

Here is exactly how they met all the standards. So I hear what you're saying it was the comments.

B

About how to manage comments without a forum and the responsibility of what to do with those.

B

Comments but it could be a notification that just says the decision will be rendered. No, you know no.

B

Earlier than this state- and you could appeal it to the board of adjustment, if you maybe so so, maybe.

G

If people have comments, it does go to a board like maybe that's just go to the boa yeah for the board.

B

Of adjustment and they could challenge that, but the idea is that there would be that we would.

B

Do a review of the standards against and this is no new construction, so it does kind of lower the.

B

Bar a little bit, but I appreciate that comment. We hear it we're trying to we're trying to be people.

B

To the intent, but we're also trying to be, I mean you obviously put something in there, so you you.

G

Know that it's a concern- and you know that you need to address it, and I appreciate that I just.

G

Think it maybe needs to be tweaked a little bit, and I I think that you do respect the fact that.

G

For me, personally, I'm coming from a position in which this really went terribly wrong. In my.

G

Opinion um and- and I want to make it better- it's it's too late for us. You know it's too.

G

Late for my situation, but I want to make sure that that it is the very best situation as.

G

Long as you're taking all this time to do this for the next person that that comes along so.

G

That's only that's that's why I bring it up and then my last, um my last thing is just parking.

G

um You took out a huge section and I know you're referencing standards. For me, I'm not.

G

Like liz, I don't have it all memorized, so I I don't even have the place to go and look for it.

G

um The bottom line is that that has not changed. Is that correct? That is correct? We have not changed.

A

The parking they still have to meet the parking and can I just say something that wasn't intuitive.

D

To me till I talked to rick about the parking regulations, and maybe it's something we can. We.

D

Can make more explicit, but if you're required to have uh 1.3 spaces for your 780 square foot unit.

D

It actually rounds up to two not rounds down to one, which is what I would have thought it would.

D

Have done, but I didn't read it carefully enough yeah, so I misspoke there's no 1.3 yeah as soon.

D

As you get one point something you round up, you have two yeah yeah. So why don't you just because.

B

When you have multi-family units, I think I think this isn't a multi-family, so you're always going.

D

To need three spaces for a single family house with an adu, and I didn't realize that then I.

G

Think just put that yeah. It might be good for us to make that clear here in this or or just.

G

Put it in here, just put it in here I thought there was a standard saying there should be a.

B

Minimum of at least one there was, we took it out because I put it in there thinking the we.

G

Just finished standards, okay, so I think it would be helpful to put it in there and I also think.

G

um It would be helpful because, as you listed at the beginning, foremost among a butters concerns.

G

It's true, okay, so you know make sure those of butters know that if you have a two-bedroom.

G

Apartment that people are requesting to put in as a dadu, you can take the parking concern right.

G

Off the top, you don't have to come in and complain about the parking because they do have to have two.

G

And that they came up with the a better survey kind of makes me wonder, you know if there's if.

B

There's maybe spillover parking, that's happening, I don't know, what's happening that they that came up.

B

I would because that was always kind of in there that expectation. So I'm I I'm curious about that.

B

But yes, I think we can re-emphasize that okay. That would be great. Thank you very much. I do hope that.

G

um With all of this discussion, um this will come back before um before you. I know you don't want.

G

It to but at the beginning of november, so we can have a look again and just make sure that it's.

G

All in there and and it's clear too to anybody else before I hope we can count on you in this.

B

Desk with the planning board to talk about how responsive it's been and how it's really reflected.

B

All the comments we've received from both our because I I'm gonna do a matrix to summarize.

B

That but I think that we've struggled really to address the goals, which are the balance, which is.

B

Always a trade-off, but then also to incorporate what we heard and what we've heard through this.

B

Forum, so I hope that we can count on you to to let the community know that we've we've really tried.

B

And this is a standard for, I think, moving forward on other regulations. Thank you. Thank you. 25 feet.

D

It already is 25., you mean it's lower than changing the 25 feet. I'm going to look at.

D

It I I definitely think the two-story image you've got on the top is pretty horrific to.

D

Have next to somebody's structure, the one right there 75 of them, you know the roof pitch is no.

D

The one that's actually got no pitch to the roof. I don't think is an attractive building. I'm not.

D

Saying it's horrific, but I think we need to be. I think, there's a possibility that we could live.

D

With something two and a half stories, that's closer to 23 feet, I know so. Yes, we'll look at.

B

It so councilman road, just because I do have to leave at 10 30. sure I did want to ask him.

D

Look at it and you do move to consideration that. I would ask that you send it to the.

B

um If that's your choice to move it forward today, send it to the city council and request that they.

B

um Refer to the planning board uh and bring it back for first here for a first hearing. So if.

B

They combine that motion, which is what I like to to my memo. Then I don't have to bring it back an.

B

Interim time, so they can schedule that first hearing does that make sense. So it's got to go.

A

To planning board yeah and then that you are referring that you used to recommend that the.

B

Council refers it to the planning board and, and that, upon recommendation plan, we'll bring it back.

B

For a first hearing that way, I can just I have the authorization to do both those things uh and.

B

We don't have to have a meeting to bring it back for the first hearing. Does that make sense, yep.

B

Because I will probably jump out in about a few minutes, you can. I start yeah, I'm just.

H

Trying to write down myself just when this is public comment, uh peter huda, 280, south street.

H

um So the first thing I'm trying to summarize everything that was that I heard here and that I.

H

Had written down in my notes, the first thing that I would ask you is to get back to some basics here.

H

um I went and pulled the law um 674-71 that gives you the definition and I'm struggling with what.

H

Is written in here how the uses of single-family dwelling switch to principal dwelling switch to.

H

Accessory dwelling um to the layperson me, this is very confusing and um the the specifics of.

H

The law basically outline- and I don't know how many places single family dwelling, so that's.

H

That would be the the first thing I would ask. um I know nick went through and changed a lot of this.

H

To principal dwelling- and I do have a question on that- one- I'm in an area where a principal dwelling.

H

um Next, to me is a condo. It was classic reclassified as a condo. These aren't allowed to.

H

Be okay, hang on so one of them is a single family house. The other one is classified as a rental.

H

So when you say principal dwelling, if this person moves from his principal house to the other thing.

H

That is another dwelling. Does that mean that this can be added on to that dwelling as written? No, no.

H

Because the word dwelling to me means something different than single-family dwelling.

H

So I I wanna, I definitely wanted that clarification just for everybody.

H

um The other thing is, um I would ask, I know your the discussion on this is all about cups, um that.

H

The language that was in the law was by special exception that would delineate adus getting a.

H

Cup, specifically using the language that was written in the law so and everybody would know.

H

It because it would be in your definitions, so that that was the other thing that.

H

um That I would I would like to request um the next thing. um I I agree with liz on uh 10 814.

H

133, the language in this, where you switch back from accessory dwelling to principal dwelling.

H

To structure to it's very confusing to just building is is still very confusing. To me, um see.

H

uh I would ask on the any place that you put in um that you're going to do a cup as an exception.

H

uh It'd be labeled as a special exception again. The other thing I guess on number 10 81432, where.

H

You're going up to uh you basically tell them that that uh 700 square foot is what they should.

H

Have which is what is in the law and then you're going to say you could get a cup to keep going up.

H

um From my perspective, a thousand square feet is too big. It's what's permitted only.

A

On the larger lots, okay, that's the other thing on the on the on the dd uh detached.

H

um This is up to the municipality, um the detached accessory dwellings. A municipality is not required.

H

But may permit detached accessory dwelling, so the the municipality is dictating this as a resident.

H

um In a especially in the historic district, some of the houses aren't this large and then, when you.

H

Go back and you you talk about it being up to 2 000 square feet with something underneath. That's.

H

Bigger than my house, so basically what you're adding is another house to this lot. So I'd like.

H

You to think about that and the wording in there. um The wording in here is also very, very confusing.

H

um The wording in 10814-332 the addition or expansion of an existing building- um I don't know.

H

If building is described in square feet, um I heard I heard I think nick say: oh, it has to be over 100.

H

Square feet, um does this mean you could you could add to any building I mean, can I have a shed.

H

Can I have an outhouse out there and it's it's considered a building on the lot? No, this is to.

H

The principal dwelling- okay, so here again, instead of principal dwelling, single family dwelling,.

H

H

Some of this, uh it's just inconsistent and you switch back to single family and and.

H

um Principal dwelling on another example: 1081443.

H

um And then, finally I would ask you: I strongly support what liz said and what liza said.

H

And I would bring your attention to the 225 whiteboard project that just came in front.

H

Of the of the planning board, if you had an administrative approval on this, which.

H

um To my knowledge, it would have passed, it would not have gone to the butters for comments. It's a.

A

New structure would never have been permitted it. Administrative approvals are only for existing.

A

Structures within there's no expansion whatsoever; okay, so there's two things there that that still.

H

um I think justified the notification of a butters that it is still changing the what's in.

H

The property- and it still affects the parking of whoever's there, because you still have to provide.

H

Parking so I mean, as far as mr bergeron brenner and anderson go uh had said here we are only.

H

Now, looking at the storm drainage because they brought it up, it wasn't brought up in the original.

H

um Original- it's not it's not in our original code, we're adding it to this.

A

I know you're adding it to this, but if this came up and it went through administrative.

H

Approval, I don't think they would they and they weren't notified. They would have no idea.

H

So that my point is agreeing with both um wasn't, was in uh and and also.

H

um I would call your attention to the due process of right to public hearings.

H

um This is in the constitution, and this is due process of law due process to public hearings.

H

The only time where there is a constitutional right to be heard at a public hearing is during.

H

A public hearing concerning a matter which affects a personal, a prop a person's property rights. This.

H

Affects alia, butter's property rights, and I I don't think we want to go into any of this, but.

H

um The pers, a person's property rights are very important to all of us and it seems when we're.

H

Looking at this, we're protecting the rights of the person that wants the adu, but we're.

H

Not protecting the rights of everybody around them, so I would say that to put a sign out that.

H

Could, or could not be seen by that many people doesn't matter. I agree with the butter should.

H

Have notices- and I think it's their right to have a notice because it affects their property.

E

The other thing is, um I noticed, like liza said you pulled out all the parking requirements.

H

um And exactly what uh what liza said if it's, instead of saying, 0.5 of a parking spot just.

H

Say one I mean make it simple: I'm polish keep it simple for me. Oh that's what I want to see.

H

There that's and there would be no questions, so I mean whether it's one or two describe it.

H

In there, and just just let it go and lay people will understand that we won't have to go across.

H

Cross and go back to the laws and see what everything else means. Thank you. Could I just.

C

um Just say one thing: the issue about special exception versus conditional use, permit.

C

um The the law says that municipalities can require it by either conditional use. Permit.

C

Or by special exception, and the reason we do conditionally we had conditional use. Primit is.

C

If you make it special exception, then it goes to the zoning board right. The planning board can't.

C

Have any any role in a special exception, so we we thought that a planning board would be the.

C

More appropriate board to deal with it than the zoning board and state law does does allow the.

C

Conditional use permit is the first is the first option, so we can't use special exception. Okay, so.

H

Then my question would be: is there any other wording that you could put on here? That would.

H

Differentiate this from a conditional use permit for uh extending a lot line for a wetlands permit.

H

Just some other wording that would apply only to adus that that the citizenry would be aware of.

H

And this the rest of us, it's the same thing as for a wetland. It's not not extending it. A lot.

D

Same findings right same findings: yeah we're under the same conditional use permit could.

A

Be for many different things right can usually use permits can be for wetlands. It can be for.

A

Adus it can be for yes, a special exception is actually not appropriate. Really for this.

C

Because and they're limited and they're right and special exceptions are actually.

A

Easier criteria to reach than a conditional use permit, which is why we went with that as well.

A

It actually gets stronger, it's a stronger, it's a stronger standard, so there's no way basically at.

H

All to differentiate that this is only related to an adu. It's that's what it says. It just says.

H

It's a condition or a conditional use permit for a wetland or conditions per minute or whatever it.

A

Is okay? Thank you very much. You're welcome have a great day all right, um plus discussions amongst us.

A

um I know that we've made several changes. The three of us four of us that are left here: okay,.

A

um Just to sort of wrap up, I know that we've and I'm sort of looking to rick to help us out in you.

A

Because you had some changes to, I think I've got five five items. We were going to maybe there's six.

D

So let me just recap them right, because I went through it, I'm not going to read them all.

D

We're gonna we're gonna attempt to rewrite the purpose and intent section. I'm gonna take the.

D

Lead on that number two we're gonna take another pass at at minimizing, some of the confusion. If, if.

D

We can, between dwelling lot area per dwelling unit versus lot area for the lot. The issue liz.

D

Brought up so perhaps delete that last sentence. Perhaps you know, as long as it doesn't create.

C

Another problem number three: we're going to revisit uh or clarify what the notification.

D

Or documentation documentation requirements are for the owner in that annual certification.

D

um Well, that might be yeah documentation in in zoning, or is that yeah restriction? Well, we either.

D

Go the deed restriction route or the documentation just needs to be clear here what it might mean.

D

uh Even if it's a reference to some moving target in the planning department, uh it.

D

Should say that, I think it needs to be clear: what what is the documentation.

D

That one would be expected to provide before you even ask for this. Permit.

D

um That was number three number. Four, don't fix the the easy one there, the one two, two four.

A

Number five consider lowering the maximum allowable height for the adu detached I'm.

D

Going to look at that and share whatever I find with everybody, I I don't think I can go down a.

D

Whole lot, unless somebody wants to get rid of having an attic over a second floor, but.

C

um It would be yeah over a second floor. I mean you could get rid of having an adu over a garage.

C

Well, it would still be there, but it would be like the second image that was shown, which has.

D

The dormer in the roof, you could still do a 16 17 foot anyway, but it's a it's. How limiting we.

D

Want to be here and that's the conversation, we've got to continue number six that we make.

D

Explicit, as we had in the last version, the parking requirements for an adu um and then number seven.

D

Just taking another pass at the sign language, the notice just making sure that our make requirements.

A

Already do what we think they do and and if they're inadequate, let's make them better.

D

um That might be it for my sheet.

D

I think so so that's what I wrote down that doesn't mean I got everything so rick. Do you.

A

Think we need to get back together to go over all that and those changes again.

D

You mean, as a group here or yeah.

C

I don't I mean, I think, if I think we can review these, as I think of course, I'm just.

C

A consultant, I think you could have another internal review to make the revisions before.

C

Bringing them forward if, if that's appropriate, I don't it seems like we're getting really into.

C

Work find details yeah. I don't know whether you want to wait another month or not right right.

A

Might it might be nice to have a cleaner document to submit for a public hearing.

D

Than be doing it in transit, what do you mean? Well, we if we adjust these seven.

D

Eight, whatever it ends up being you want to bring it back here. Is there harm in doing.

D

That for just keep in mind how many months it'll take to get to the public hearings.

D

What do you do? I think it's smart to do our due diligence and keep it clean and keep it here.

A

Until we get after what I just went through on the building height yeah, I'm an advocate.

E

Tonight and then we'll move forward all right, so rick we'll get together and yeah additional minor.

C

Wording changes delete one and and one, and only one to change it to only one and let's just be.

A

Consistent with what we're using for the principal dwelling unit make sure, because it is does say.

A

Existing building, I think it should say existing principal dwelling. Maybe when we're talking about.

A

The attached adus, I don't know we- can just look at it and see if there's a uh okay um laughs.

C

I guess I'm just worried about making it more less precise and then the other one is change.

C

Roof surface to roof plane. Oh yes, yes, the roof one and I think it's worth uh maybe.

D

I missed it, but look at looking at being more explicit about the thousand square.

D

Foot maximum in the table it uses as a footnote, yeah yep, um as liz pointed out.

A

All right, we will bring it forward next, stop november. For the last time. For the last time, I.

A

Hope, hopefully, we'll have it at that point. Any other questions concerns. If not I'm going to.

D

Do the same with the assisted living right, we'll bring that back for the final yeah.

A

um Although there was because there was just that one change to the assisted living from not.

A

A permitted to special exception can I suggest, if folks, in the audience, have feedback on the.

D

Assisted living, we we maybe get something in advance if possible, so we can maybe move them.

D

Both forward at the next meeting, I know you didn't get it till either today or yesterday.

A

Network one yeah: I just used my work, one for everything.

A

All right, that's all. I am going to adjourn the meeting. Thank you. Everyone have a great day.