City of Portsmouth, New Hampshire Legislative Sub Committee, 23 Aug 2023

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8.23.2023 Legislative Subcommittee

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Hello, everyone to the city council's legislative subcommittee for wednesday.

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August 23rd 2023, here in conference of may I look first for approval of the january 27 2023.

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Minutes of this meeting so moved second discussion. All in favor.

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Aye, I think gene you did take the role or I did not. Okay, let's take the take the roll, it's not on.

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Here but yep american here assistant mayor kelly here, counselor tabor, here councilor cook here.

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uh Karen connard is here the city manor, I'm here assistant, uh senior assistant city attorney, james.

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Not referring to age but uh experience- and we have a representative here who joined us so thank.

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You so much david moves, so he is here to listen in and hear the update. So thanks for coming all right.

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um First up uh gene: uh would you be kind enough to indulge us in the summary of the.

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Bills enacted in 24 3., no believe it or not. There is a powerpoint. Don't thank everyone. I know oops.

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A senior that's right, I'm stepping up my game and doing powerpoints. Now, most simple of powerpoints.

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Ever viewed by anyone, but at any rate we can all share okay, the next screen. So what I did.

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Is I took the bills, we talked about and kind of gave you a status update on some those we talked.

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About you know the the status when they when we discussed them. As you all know, uh senate bill 262.

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Was the hotel occupancy and unfortunately, that did not make it out of committee? It was itl's.

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Then there were several uh bills relative to child care that I think councilor cook was specifically.

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Interested in as well and um so senate bill 221, that was a study committee to review daycare.

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Affordability and access, particularly due to post, covet issues, and that was retained in committee.

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But what did pass is senate bill 170, which was the one that added some of those smaller.

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Definitions of daycares at home, daycares to the definition of daycare providers, so that did pass.

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um There were a few housing bills that we were tracking um one that we were.

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Specifically, interested in was senate bill 244, which was as a part of the housing opportunity.

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Zone statute, it would have added language that would have allowed municipalities to require.

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20 percent of new construction to be workforce housing, that's something enabling legislation.

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It would have been optional. Unfortunately, a nice way of killing a bill is to sometimes re-refer.

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Or retain it in committee, so it did not make it out, but um not notwithstanding. Efforts on.

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Behalf of our representatives and senator perkins, our our committee members here so um that was the.

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Dispension on that one, um there was a senate bill 47. This was one of several a lot of times there.

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Are kind of statewide zoning amendments and this was one to look at specifically housing.

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Density with the idea of trying to encourage workforce housing and that one made it all.

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The way to committee of conference and then just didn't, make it out of committee of conference. So.

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There was support for that all the way through it, just it just didn't make it in the end.

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um Okay, next page another topic that was very um important and there were lots of bills where.

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Tenants rights, you know as a result of covid and you know, particularly uh as a result of.

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The you know um the funding for housing drying up through through covid most of the bills regarding.

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Tenants, rights and notice, and all of that died, except for senate bill 235 and that created a.

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Study committee to consider creating a mediation program for landlord-tenant issues, and so that.

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That is significant because I think uh tenants that have been evicted um having been over at.

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The circuit court, in my former life doing those types of things it's very confusing for a lot of.

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Tenants, the landlord tenant law is very strict, and um so you know something like an alternative. uh An.

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Alternative mediation program- maybe something that that is, that will come out of this. This.

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uh Committee and might help you know tenants and landlords work things out without going to court.

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um And so that obviously passed um there were some relative to you know the erosion of local control.

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um And some strange liability uh bills that were introduced this last session.

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um So house, bill 647, which is when we discussed, which was the elimination of certain government.

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Immunities that was tabled um house bill 292 was a strange bill entitled theft by a public servant.

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If that public servant paid for legal fees for defending a claim, except if that was approved in.

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Some sort of non I shouldn't that public. I'm sorry, I should have said non-public session on that one.

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um So that was itl'd right off the bat which was encouraging um every year, something similar to.

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Husband 51 comes forward restriction on lobbying for municipalities and school districts and.

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The like um that particular bill was itls um and house bill 361, which was um a request to.

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Add representatives from ryan newcastle to the peas board that was also retained in committee.

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um And then all of the cannabis bills uh they went up and smoked put them.

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Thank you very much. I worked on that. Oh no I'll be bearing in vegas no only kidding.

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um So all of them were either tabled. Itl'd retained in committee.

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um The one that survived, which is passed is chapter. 237 is um one that creates a commission.

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To study uh state controlled cannabis and uh the sale of hemp products and clarifies um a.

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Little bit more relative to what the therapeutic cannabis program is in in the state, so that passed.

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And the report out for that committee is due on december 1st, so um they don't have a lot of time.

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But typically, those are the dates by which these these study committees have to were poured out.

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Tireman, that's something we care a lot about in the city of portsmouth, like.

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All municipalities, because it affects our budget.

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um So we were very encouraged by house bill 50 and senate bill 114, which would have.

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um Had the state pay a portion of the employer's contribution for retirement, um it was similar to.

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The bill last year, where I think what was it a seven percent or nine percent kind of reinstating.

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The state's former obligation to pay a portion of the employer's retirement contribution house bill.

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50 made it all the way into house bill 2.. So we we all thought that that was going to as amended pass.

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um And what what what house bill 50 got amended to was a 50 million dollars to reduce the unfunded.

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Accrued liability for the retirement system, unfortunately, it was removed from house bill.

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2 at the last minute so that um that did not go forward um and then there are changes relative.

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To retirement eligibility, a statute used to say you could retire at 65. now as um younger younger.

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Employees are have an older retirement day that language was changed to eligibility for social.

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Security, so um that passed, there's also a cost of living adjustment for retirees that passed.

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um That there was another bill 555 that was going to again a portion, some of the state surplus.

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Towards the accrued liability that was tabled, and um there is a bill that passed relative to.

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Penalties, if municipalities, don't fi file, employer compensation reports relative to retirement.

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um Interestingly, to bills a house bill, 461 and 436 are were both retirement bills that that are now.

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Study committees, the the more interesting one for from our perspective, as far as municipal budgets,.

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Was um house bill 436 as originally drafted and that's a bill that would have vested certain.

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Police and fire employees about 1824 members that I think fell off the vested cliff when.

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They did the retirement reforms way back. Putting them back in the bill would have had that cost.

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Funded by the state and that that funding would have projected forward for the next 20 years.

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um There was a lot of concern about that bill because you can't uh what one legislature passes.

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As a statute, as we all know, can be uh undone by a subsequent legislature, so the the worry.

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About this is you know, the state might pay the first year or two years and then the next.

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Legislature could come in and say we're waiving that payment. That's pushed on to municipalities.

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So that's an important study committee to watch what comes out of that committee. If that bill.

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Gets refined or reintroduced for the fiscal impact on municipalities next slide. Please.

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uh So then there are some new laws that that um have been signed by the governor. um Most of them.

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We weren't tracking these issues, but I figured I might as well um do a little summary um for.

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Assessing obviously, uh and tax exemptions, there was some sort of tidying up bills, as as I would.

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uh Classify them as one is clarifying the date of the asset evaluation for for the disabled.

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Deaf and elderly, so that made some clarification statewide as to what snapshot in time you, you know.

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You need to have the those exemptions assessed and then clarifies a formula for person claiming.

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Tax exemption, if they own a fractional interest in property, so there was just some tidying up.

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With that language, this is another one to watch um senate bill. 16 creates uh stakeholders group.

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To address utility polls- and even anybody of you followed the the legislature, the last, what.

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Is it david, 10 20 years has been so much fight about taxation and and for utilities. So this.

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This stakeholders group um is reporting out to the senate. I would imagine they'll be reporting out on.

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Bills relative to taxation, so that's something that we should watch as that moves forward.

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Next site and then there's some um the other one. That's not on this list, which I apologize. That.

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Fell off is um a bill that chain that changed the law for right to know on minutes from non-public.

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Session that is uh house bill 321, that is the lara's chapter. uh 321. Excuse me that it's chapter.

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321, at any rate, so it requires public bodies to review meeting minutes non-public meeting minutes.

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um At least every 10 years to determine whether or not they still need to be withheld.

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So and then there's this provision in the statute that says minutes that aren't reviewed after 10.

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Years shall be made public, so um what the legal team is doing is looking at that bill. You can.

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Kind of create a policy as to how you want to roll that out. So in 10 years, you've got to kind of look.

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Back and figure out, you know how that works, so I think that's going to come. There'll be.

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A recommendation from legal as to how to address this new statute and what's the best process for.

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Council and future councils. So if if there were a concern raised about something, that's more than 10.

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Years old going public, the council would have to vote to keep it sealed correct correct. So I think.

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The policy will be, how do we roll out and review these old ones right, working with the city clerk.

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And you know, as every council get it 10-year chunk or something you know, how does that work so that.

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That'll be become but you're exactly right this. So if you don't review it in 10 years time, it becomes.

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Public so there'll be a process by which I don't know if something could be vetted in advance from.

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The city clerk or you know, they'll, be there'll, be a discussion and we'll take a look at it and make.

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Some recommendation on that policy- and now here are just some miscellaneous spills: um political.

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Signs removal of political signs- some of you get calls about this, I'm sure right and they.

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Clarified that it's not just the candidate that has to remove the the campaign signs, it can be.

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That someone from their committee or someone from uh the uh the party can remove them, so that is is.

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um Interesting to those who get those calls, we have answers um senate bill. 103 includes the.

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Raid on fort william and mary and portsmouth in the planning of the american revolution.

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Sester centennial commission, I learned a new word: sester centennial means 250.. So.

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um I didn't know that that's coming up had to look it up so uh that passed as well.

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um Senate bill 110 is interesting because it clarifies residency for recipients of welfare.

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As you might imagine, there's uh there's folks that are in need: oftentimes are in hospitals.

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And they go to hospitals in certain towns and then when they get released from the hospital. How does.

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That affect their residency. Sometimes there are space available in one town in a hotel and if.

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Someone's from one town and goes to another, how do you figure out what the residency is.

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For purposes of of providing welfare benefits, and this bill clarifies how that how that's.

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Done I checked with our director of welfare and she said we were already doing it anyway.

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You know we have a great relationship calling neighboring towns and all of that, but this at.

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Least, clarifies things statewide as to how you figure out who's responsible for for paying for.

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um For for those recipients depending on their residency um and then there's some uh a bill.

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Relative to to driveways, I don't, I think these are certain fire code regulations that apply to really.

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Long, driveways and and there's specific widths and things like that. So this as a really clarifies.

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That a land use board has the authority to regulate driveways. Notwithstanding there, there are.

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Certain other fire code regulations. I don't think that's going to apply to us too much, because I.

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Think the type of driveway that they're regulating is something we don't often see in portsmouth.

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um And then um homeowners associations sometimes have obligations.

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um In subdivision plans, and this clarifies that if they're going to dissolve who's left basically.

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Responsible for for the things in a in a in a subdivision plan, so they must go before a land.

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Use board and have a public hearing before they before they dissolve, which is which is helpful.

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um All right, so that takes care of the legislative wrap-up.

D

You're welcome. This slide speaks to agenda item number four. Yes, any questions. First, on.

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The legislative wrap up representative muse with anything to add to no just that the um we are.

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Going to our filing period in the house uh starts on monday, the 11th of september and closes on the.

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15Th of september wow, it's fast yeah, so uh that's the house there's a little bit more flexibility on.

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The senate side, I'm not sure when they're filing deadlines are, but that's one of the reasons why I.

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Wanted to be here today if there was something you wanted to make sure we paid attention to.

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And and got in in the end of the hopper by the middle of next month, and it got done so.

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Any other questions from the committee did the governor sign the cannabis bill.

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The one that passed- I I don't I thought he'd leave tonight. I think there was a veto in may.

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And I think it's the study it converted to the study committee right that bill, never that bill.

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Never made it out of the senate, okay, so um there are, um I think, two or three cannabis bills that.

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Are retained in my committee, criminal justice- I don't expect uh any of them will go anywhere.

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There'll be a fair amount of work that takes place. Real work is going to happen behind the.

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Scenes because what the governor did in very very rough frame framework when he vetoed not.

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Enough vetoed, but when he he commented after the senate decided not to pass the bill and.

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What he said was he was looking for a bill that would make sure that we don't create these sort.

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Of cannabis, retail strips like we see over in kittery and down near the massachusetts.

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Border- and he also is looking for some sort of a program where the sales would happen. um You know.

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In conjunction with the liquor commission and, I think, still to be determined, whether that's in.

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Existing stores and an idea that was floated in a previous session was actually building stores.

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Next, to or adjacent to the current liquor stores, so a bunch of things to be worked out.

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Thank you, that's helpful, to know, I mean and then presumably there'll be the a bill introduced that.

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That kind of follows some of those comments you think, or will the ones retained, be amended? Perhaps.

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I, the ones that retain or retained, may be amended, but but I don't think any of them unless they're.

E

I'm not sure that the objective is to try to work the any of the existing cannabis bills.

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Into the same framework that the governor had in mind, that's a possibility, and if that does.

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Happen what would happen is those bills would be voted on in the criminal justice committee.

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Probably sometime in november and then like on january 3rd or 4th, the full house would vote.

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For them and that they passed the house, they go to the senate and from there. So it could happen.

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That way, but it's just I'm I'm pretty skeptical. It will happen that way.

F

I guess why are you.

F

Is there opposition to having more of a consolidated state-run approach in the house.

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I think the the issue with the bills now is there: the bills were all fairly different and- and I I'm.

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Trying to remember the the retain bills, but some of them were just um uh and one that I remember.

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Was a straight legalization bill so essentially, what we'd be doing is just decriminalizing.

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Cannabis, but there was nothing in the bill about education, about law enforcement, about.

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How it would be sold whether it would be sold so so what you? What you have left are bills that have.

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Pieces and in some cases, they're important pieces, but what you don't have is something that actually.

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Puts it all together right and that that's what I think uh is probably most likely to happen behind.

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The scenes and whether that gets through or not it's it's very tough, because there's very much.

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An ideological split that doesn't necessarily follow democrat republican lines. There are some.

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Legislators who feel very strongly that cannabis should be controlled by the liquor commission and.

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There are other ones that feel equally strongly that you know we should follow the model that.

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May massachusetts and every other state in the country uses where um you know we we basically.

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License that out to private businesses and we find a way to collect tax revenue from it. How.

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Many uh other uh states follow our model when it comes to a liquor, commission and state-sponsored.

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Liquor store, we would be the only state to sell uh cannabis state store. Sorry mike, what were the, how.

A

Many other states follow our model for liquor for liquor. I don't know pennsylvania maryland.

C

There's a couple, not many like pennsylvania, I think a little different they're, all just a little.

G

Different and then there's still limitations on the federal level, so the state selling marijuana.

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Or cannabis, but it's still it's still classified as a class one narcotic. There are all kinds of.

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Issues for, like you know, for the for the private companies and entrepreneurs places like made in.

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Massachusetts with hud, you know b being able to do things like um uh you know, take debit.

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Cards and move cash around electronically, and things like that that I know they're trying.

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To address in congress that they're kind of stalled there, too yeah 17 is the answer. 17.

H

Wow and oregon actually is one of the only ones that has a oregon liquor and cannabis. Commission.

E

That's a joint cannabis and liquor commission interesting.

H

Who act as independent contractors? Okay, so oregon? Actually, the state isn't actually selling cannabis.

H

Yeah they have state appointed independent contractors. [music] um I would encourage anyone.

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Who is looking at this to go to portland maine and take a look at downtown portland now, since.

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This has passed because in one block there are four cannabis stores. What's happened is they've.

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Come in and kind of taken over a lot of the shops in downtown is very interesting. So um so, if it.

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Would be lessons learned, it'd be nice to have some lessons learned before they take any clear action.

H

And this is just a commentary on on kind of this, is you run the risk of.

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Your regulating this and are we not going to regulate alcohol? Are we not going to say.

H

Hey, you can't have you so that that's where I worry about you know. I understand the concern.

H

Of you know, rows and rows, but if you walk anywhere in portsmouth there's every other.

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Shop front is a place that sells alcohol very common in manchester nashua north conway rochester.

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Milton plus food plus food plus food plus food, you know it seems like it works out. That's right.

G

Like oreos, that's the that's. The question is, like you know, yeah. What does it look like? I.

H

Just hope that we are, we don't end up being so far behind on on what we're, seeing as a national trend.

C

I love a lot of education money, a lot of education running out of money.

H

I'm sure we'll get all of that.

B

What's happening because we may need the money um both the conval case. That's been up to the.

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Supreme court and back um is a case that is going to be decided, probably in september.

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The case has been submitted um and it is a case that challenges the adequacy statute in two.

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Ways, basically, one is the definition: what are the components of an adequate education and the other.

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Is the money is signed and defined by statute as to what what it costs? So um the petitioners.

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Have argued that there's loads of things that aren't in the adequacy statute that are part.

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Of an adequate education things like nurses, transportation, school facilities, custodians.

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And they also argue that there are a bunch of administrative rules and regulations that.

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Govern that govern schools that have baked in them basically costs associated with. With these.

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These types of regulations, so the petitioner's argument, is basically all that stuff really is.

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The adequate cost of an adequate education which the state is constitutionally obligated to provide.

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um The the state's argument is a narrow one and it's basically statutory construction and.

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Separation of powers- and what I mean by that is the adequacy statute that was actually challenged.

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In the lawsuit is specifically defined, and so the states like we understand what you're saying but.

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What you've actually challenged is this small piece and this small piece only says x and we.

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As a state can't read into statutes or add on to statute stuff, that's not there. There.

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That's the job of the legislature and that's that separation of powers, kind of argument.

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um I can say segwaying into the next slide, for the state v rand or excuse me, randy state. That is the.

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Case that is also about education funding. That is the case that the city of portsmouth, as a member.

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Of the coalition communities 2.0 so intervened in, because that is the case that is challenging.

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The retention of the excess swept. I attended the hearings on the cross motions for summary judgment.

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Last month and the same judge is hearing both of these cases, which is good because it's highly.

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Specialized information, and what was um what was interesting, is he just issued an order on this.

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Ran case saying, nothing else in this ran case will be addressed other than this narrow issue.

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Of the of the excess wept and the negative swep rate until I issue my order on the conval case,.

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Because, as he asked all the lawyers in the room, well, doesn't this excess swept issue go away? If.

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I simply raise adequacy to a very a higher amount, because then everyone's going to be.

B

Having to raise more per child- and these excess communities won't exist because they too will.

B

Have to raise more will cost more per child and every lawyer in the room said uh you're right. So.

B

uh His order was just two weeks ago to say I think, he's going to do convale. First, I'm just.

B

Surmising and and that's going to be the big the big case um and then he'll deal with this. uh The.

B

The constitutionality of whether we can retain the excess swept the old donor town argument.

B

um If, obviously, the judge makes the determination that it's unconstitutional to retain the excess.

B

Web, then that will be a fiscal impact to the city. You'd have to raise in local education tax. What.

B

You used to retain for the excess sweat because we poured those right back into our school budget, but.

B

Everything will be appealed so no matter who, who no matter how the judge decides on either of these.

B

Cases they will very likely be appealed to the supreme court. Those, and I can't tell you what.

B

Issues would be appealed, but I'm I'm surmising that no matter what no matter how the judge comes.

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Out on all of these issues, either the state's going to appeal or the plaintiffs are going to.

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Appeal if they're unhappy with with the ruling, so it's it's too soon to tell but we'll know a.

B

Lot more in september, when we get these orders um and the the state's argument for for the.

B

Access wept is once again kind of a narrow look at the statute and actually the constitution in.

B

This instance, the the actual provision of the constitution that was cited by the petitioners.

B

um The states claiming they don't have standing to raise raise these challenges under the particular.

B

Provision of the constitution that they cited and um and and they're, also saying, petitioners.

B

Are mad about decisions that the department of revenue administration has made not the actual.

B

Tax itself, because the actual tax is uniform and proportional and consistent with statutory.

B

Requirements what they're mad about is what dare said, which means hey. You guys can keep.

B

Your excess swept, which isn't in a statute or any or the constitution section that they referenced a.

B

Era has decided that for those towns that don't have kids, they can set a negative swep rate. So.

B

That they're not actually creating you know they're, not actually um creating that um that.

B

Swept passing that swept along to residents? Because if there are no children in that.

B

Particular district, so um so we'll wait and see. um What's going to happen with those interesting.

B

Cases, but they will be, they will be digested and they will likely be appealed. But the question.

B

Will be from the decision whether the legislature takes action in the fall, because this is going to.

B

Come out in september so whether any bills come mirroring, these decisions, notwithstanding appeals.

E

And I think in the past the courts have sort of thrown this back to the legislature consistent and.

E

The legislature is sort of thrown up a dead fish and that's kind of years. On this, there.

E

Are ways to get legislation through emergency legislation goes to the rules committee and, if.

E

The rules committee approves it, it can kind of go on down through the cycle. So there are ways.

E

Ways to make legislation happen at any point in the process. One thing that may play into it too.

E

Is we may actually have a dead heat in the house by the time any legislation on this comes up and.

E

My experience you know to date has been well. We've been pretty far apart on some things on every site.

E

On things like this, where we actually do have to work together and where we have, you know.

E

People from both parties who are basically into actually trying to solve the problem.

E

um It uh there's there's more potential, you know to move something something.

E

Forward, even it's even if it's outside of our usual, you know submission cycle.

E

Some something like this, you know, I don't think we could sit on. We have to figure out something.

B

That's yeah, that's what I was curious about, because once the decision comes down even if.

B

It gets appealed, you know I it's a definitely a messaging, certainly from the courts and so.

B

Be interesting to see what the how the legislature reacts to both decisions.

B

You know, notwithstanding appeals, so the first decision will be the convale, yes and whether.

B

Or not, I think, is adequate. I think I think I think he'll probably issue our issue of the x.

B

Swept on the tax rate in the rand case, at the same time that he he he does. The convent, which.

B

Is the whole adequacy issue? The petitioners claimed the retention of ex or they or the.

A

State argues against the petitioners that are on the receiver town side of of things uh that.

A

The swept is constitutional, as as uniform is rate in rate. Is that a generally accepted.

A

um Do we generally accept that, because they, uh the application of a five percent or what.

A

Have you percent is uniform in rate, even though it's grossly uniform in action is a is a uniform.

A

Tax rate, that's exactly what what you've hit on is: how does the local education, tax rate.

B

um Attached to the swept so what they're saying and I'm I don't have the right term, but they're.

B

Saying it's de facto unequal because you have to look at them both together. That's what the.

B

Petitioners are saying they're saying it's not just the swept that you look at that the rate.

B

That's uniform, basically, it's all the disparate local education taxes that all these different.

B

Towns need to raise that vary greatly and that's the unconstitutionality so you've you have.

B

Identified the petition part of the petitioner's argument in the condo case, but they don't they.

A

Don't they they take it as a they take that the actual swept is not uniform, because there.

B

Is but it is constitutional in their mind, these sweats, no, they don't believe swept, is uniform or.

A

Is constitutional because of the correct because they they claim it's not proportionate they're.

B

Not challenging the fact that the state can make that tax they're not challenging that that type.

B

Of tax is unconstitutional, you're right, they're challenging is not proportional, so they are on.

A

Our side when we would pay much more in tax based on the the swift affecting our property.

A

Values at a uniform rate at a much higher level than the state is on our side. The ag's office is.

B

Arguing as well as our intervener that it is constitutional but, like I guess like as long.

A

Like I don't think it's constitutional because I think the returning of it is is fine, but I.

A

Wouldn't think that our the ability for the state to raise a swept based on the it's completely lack.

A

Of uniformity across the across the uh across the communities, it affects us negatively because.

A

Our property values are higher, regardless of the ability to pay, but it's not proportional to the.

A

Amount that people actually pay on a city by city basis we pay much more in in swept and we retain.

A

It so we're okay with it now, but if it were ever to to go and we couldn't retain it, it would not.

A

Be proportional to the up on a per person basis in in portsmouth versus in franklin. Does that.

B

um I think I think you are completing the um how it's assessed with the number, the actual tax rate.

B

Because it's the equalized property value that the property values differ correct. So so I think.

B

That's what you're, targeting if I'm, if I'm correct, yeah, I'm just so my original question is: is it.

A

Proportional, if it's not applied proportionally like, is it like on a per person basis, because.

A

Property has taken, you know, is paid by people not by houses in most cases or from a commercial.

A

Value of the of the house that each individual, a portsmouth resident, will pay proportionally more.

A

Than a resident in a uh with less property value ascribed to their town through an equalized value.

A

They they would look at the. I think, the rate, not the per person payment. Okay. So that's what so. I.

A

Guess my original question is: like: is everybody in agreement that proportionality only it doesn't.

A

It's not on individual ability to pay its own. No, it's not on ability to pay it off property.

B

Your question? Okay! Yes, so the question so like we don't challenge that they don't.

A

Challenge that no one has raised the ability to pay in any of these lessons, effort is too.

C

To balance the property poor towns have to have very high school tax rates. They have.

C

Very highly property, rich towns have to have very low, lower, exactly and so.

C

To get equal state funding you either have to raise the adequacy number.

C

Which would make the state obligated to pay the difference for the property poor towns.

B

Correct or where do they find that money yeah or you withhold the excess and we create donor.

C

Towns again, but just so we are all very, very clear: the excess is less than 30 million dollars. That's.

B

Not a drop in the bucket of the of the amount of money that the state would need to pay for.

B

Education throughout the state- it's it I mean it's, we don't. We don't have any ability to raise that.

A

Money on the or like without another uh income stream, for the the state of new hampshire right.

B

Right that would well, I would think it would be very challenging what is the annual budget of.

A

The education department isn't like a 1.5 billion or something it's a lot. Yeah yeah actually spend.

B

A lot of money on education in the state of new hampshire, we're not that far behind massachusetts.

A

Like we spend a lot of money, it's just all spent on the local level uh to do it and it's unequal.

A

For you know sounds like franklin that don't want to pay. You know teachers and can't hire.

A

Teachers, so the education budget for the state was 3.47 billion. It was 23 of the state's budget.

B

So there's other sources other than swift other than it's 23 of the state's budget. Yes,.

A

How is that possible? They don't pay for. What is that going towards.

B

I there are other statutes and other other things other than swept for education funding.

B

There's special education, there's building aid, there's there's all sorts of other. How.

A

Much does the state of new hampshire spend on education on the local and and state level.

B

I don't have that answer off the top of my head.

G

Yeah it'd be interesting to know how much money has also gone to vouchers.

D

Voucher program, um I don't last, I checked it. Hadn't had a huge impact. The the whole.

B

uh Freedom accounts and and vouchers, um but I can at least in portsmouth when I checked.

B

With our school administrator, not here, I'm curious about the statewide, I think of the.

G

Numbers a lot larger, that's a great plate way to get some money back to fund something.

C

um Yeah and it keeps out running whatever they appropriate for right, yeah.

G

Do they ever um do an assessment of what the cost of education is in different parts of the state.

G

Because the cost of a teacher on the seacoast is a lot higher than the cost of a teacher in berlin.

G

The education commission four years ago did extensive report out.

B

On education funding and address those those very issues like the fact that we we get, we.

B

Have the money to maybe pay a a teacher that has more qualifications, whereas perhaps those those.

B

Towns that are less uh you know less affluent, have great turnover because they're hiring new teachers.

B

And they're kind of you know cutting their teeth. There's there's extensive data that hundreds of.

B

Pages of data that the commission put forward on education funding that addressed some of those.

B

Components and recommended a whole different way to look at education and education funding than.

B

Adequacy in the statutory scheme that we have now, it was completely uh that they recommended a new.

B

Way to look at it, input versus output basis, but the thing that they didn't do is they didn't do.

B

The finance piece associated with it, so they did great data on how to maybe fix the problem, but.

B

No work on how do we fund it and I think, and that does have statistics on how much new hampshire.

B

Plays on average per pupil, I think it's like 16 grand per kid, but what's the state's portion of.

B

That it's very low- it's mostly the local, so portsmouth, at least through the chris dwyer's.

A

Presentation right was, we were at the average yeah no and then so. Some spend a lot more. Some spanish.

A

I guess, like the the concern that I have you know, it seems like we've been the uh the interest.

A

Groups that are pushing for a return to uh swept and and donor towns uh missed the I think the the.

A

Larger issue that we might you know, portsmouth is certainly uh has more property, rich uh and.

A

Yet we will have uh many people that continue to own their homes and have owned their homes.

A

For a long period of time, they will be forced to sell their homes if we have a a five percent.

A

Across the board increase to their uh to their taxes and the conversation so far, seemingly from.

A

Some of the uh the lobbying groups has been that this is an unjust uh system and while it might.

A

Be unjust and it probably is unjust. The way that they're looking to solve this inequity is not any.

A

Any more fair um in in any way and so concerned with the just the you know, the.

A

You know, especially in light of the fact that the swept is but a drop in the bucket of like.

A

What they're looking to serve it seems to sow more dissension uh among new hampshire communities than.

A

It actually looks to to create some sort of plan to address the inequity, because you know.

A

If we forced mom and pop kettle out of their homes by raising a swept here, it's going to.

A

Be painful obviously, for this, but it's not going to solve the issues of claremont. You.

C

Constitutional issue is interesting because.

C

You know everything is based on the one line that says the state shall cherish education.

B

Why an education is deemed a constitutional right, yeah that.

B

That was one of the claremonts and one of the many. uh uh What the state is saying.

C

um We can only act on what the legislature tells us to do so. There may be this oblivague obligation.

C

In the constitution, but until the legislature creates, creates, defines and instructs yep.

C

There's no way to go forward, so that's those are, you know, that's a stalemate. uh I forgot which case.

B

Whether it's conval or statement, I think it is convale that says your honor we've been we've.

B

Been coming to the judiciary for 20 30 years on this issue, it's time for, for you to take action.

B

And in certain instances, uh judicial action is necessary and not wait for the legislation.

B

To make you know uh its changes because they're arguing it's failed, it has failed to do so over.

B

Many decades so we we'll see, I mean that certainly would be appealed. If, if the judge were to say I'm.

B

Setting the rate at you know such and such so we'll we'll see how that goes. There have been.

E

Attempts to uh kind of to to clarify adequacy and redefine it and unfortunately, those turn.

E

Into you know, political footballs, depending on which side you're on and [music] um uh and the.

E

Bottom line is, nobody has really had the votes. You know to push anything like that through.

E

um And uh and I think with the court cases going on in the background- uh there's been.

E

Some reluctance to do that too. So, so I think a lot of people right now are just sort of you know in a.

E

Wait and see mode to see what the court does. um I know that, uh folks on the education committee, mel.

E

Myler dave luno a couple of representatives who are sort of deeply involved in this.

E

I think that they're, you know looking at this really carefully um and- and I know rick ladd who's.

E

The chairman of the education committee is looking at it pretty carefully too, but uh you know I I.

E

Don't think we have the option to not do anything if the court comes down with a decision that tells.

E

Us we have to do something, and hopefully, if the court does that they're smart enough to say and if.

E

You don't do something, you know, here's what here's what has to happen. That would be there and that's.

B

Maybe I mischaracterize it. The legislature has done something. The the formula has changed a bunch.

B

Of times over the course you know, because I don't I don't mean to imply that the legislature hasn't.

B

Acted but I think the petitioner's argument is has enacted done enough or or addressed the full full.

B

Scope of the issue because there's certainly been attempts and changes and changes to the formula.

B

And and over the the many years, but um well in the original early days of the statewide property tax,.

C

There were 200 towns, there were towns that whose surplus was given to property poor.

C

Towns and then the legislature just said well we're going to make the adequacy number so low.

E

Republic, new hampshire, new hampshire is the quality of a kids. Education can be very much.

E

Dependent on the zip code they live in and that kind of flies in the face with.

E

Every child deserves inadequate education, so, and you know we get kind of wrapped around.

E

The axle with trying to define you know define what that means, but but I think.

E

um You know one of the ways I think we're we're finally going to get around. It is we're.

E

In I mean my observation is, is we fund education in a way that's different from almost any other.

E

State and the mission we sort of give ourselves is: let's build a car that will drive us to boston.

E

Only let's build a car that doesn't have any wheels. You know, and I mean that's kind.

E

Of the equivalent of what we try to do with the taxation system that we have now and- and I think.

E

um Just because of the way that this particular state is wired, it's just a very, very difficult.

E

Thing to change that system and you know so what you get instead. Is you get the illusion of motion.

E

The illusion of action, uh you get you you get something, but what you don't get is problem.

E

Solved you still have kids in one zip code who are getting a way better education than kids in other.

E

Zip codes and that's and that just stays with us yeah, that's what I was going to say. The biggest.

G

Challenge is that most states, when they fund education, they're funding it through an income tax.

G

So it's much easier than to to determine what the rate is across the state for an adequate.

G

Education and provide every district that money per pupil, because it's a statewide levied tax.

G

On individuals it'd be very hard to do that in new hampshire, unless you were assessing.

G

Cities and towns based upon their population. You know you have x number of persons. So therefore,.

G

You pay x amount rather than based upon property, because the property values it's very, very hard.

G

Clearly, to find an equalization, it's a very hard system to base the education funding on.

E

Right very difficult to change very, very high, the tax structure I mean if a couple of sessions ago.

E

There was a bill that would have added a capital gains tax to the interest in dividends, tax that.

E

Very very few people would have actually earned enough to to to pay into virtually all the money.

E

For that would have gone into education and it would have helped a lot, but we just didn't have.

E

The votes to put it through and the other thing is, is even if you have the votes to get it through.

E

The house and the senate, you still have to have a governor who's willing to sign it and- and that's.

E

Been an issue with any kind of broad-based tax for not just for uh with republican governors, but with.

E

Democratic governors too, I think the the current climate will have more uh issues with any.

A

Increase in adequacy or state funding of that just given the direction, especially since covet and the.

A

Conversations with freedom, accounts and general distrust of you know, education professionals when.

A

It comes to uh to the schooling, and you know, onto the point of the zip codes that is, uh that is.

A

Completely true, not a hundred percent, you know uh related, at least in my opinion, to the quality of.

A

An education because education is so much more than what you get in school. It is, you know the.

A

Amount of time your parents can spend you know creating extracurricular opportunities and and.

A

And have you so it's not it's not uh surprising that that alliance to zip codes and that's also.

A

Going to be going through that, but I guess thank you for the update jane on that. I think um there's.

A

A you know, uh uh representative muse, if you figure out a way to solve this, please let us know, and you.

A

Know I do I am hopeful in that the you know there's a. I think that most people that are.

A

uh That are lucky enough to to serve in the house of representatives or serve here. You know in city.

A

Council, or in the senate or as governor, do credit the position that they're in in some uh way big or.

A

Small to the education they received, and we know that educated workforce is a is a strong workforce.

A

There's a lot of reasons why we want a positive and strong education system and we'd hope that.

A

If there was a way to define education through a a bipartisan effort, you know that's something.

A

That you know we would. We would certainly uh support in a positive way, to raise the adequacy.

A

Level uh of that, that would be, I think, a win uh for the state, but you know that's that's why you.

A

Get paid the big bucks uh representative muse to to try to figure that uh that one out that's a.

I

Well, we'll see in september they have it at september, 14th or 15th. I don't know, be.

A

Like right, well, the we'll be right before the filing deadline, all right, um so uh thank you.

A

Senior assistant city attorney um next up is the nhma legislative policy process committee.

A

To discuss nhma's legislative policy process so that their policies last from 2023 to 2024.

B

I think our first meeting of this committee, I sent the nhma policies. We also have our.

B

um City? Policies which segues into the committees uh to discuss legislative issues of interest which.

B

uh Representative muse also discussed, so we have these policies, we have, you know various.

B

Issues the city is, is interested in if we do have any that match up with our policies. We.

B

Should reach out to our representatives too, because the filing deadline for the house is.

B

Is fastly approaching and um obviously work with senator perkins? So if, if the.

B

Committee wants to have another meeting or, or um you know, provide some guidance.

B

I'd be happy to reach out and ask if, if there are certain issues that we we want to address,.

C

One would be you know where new hampshire is so far behind our other peer states.

C

In the percent of renewables that we require in our electricity in the amount of.

C

Solar that we allow people to put back into the grid, we have pretty low caps on that.

C

In contrast to maine and massachusetts, so we're really hampering solar and wind and hydro.

C

And I don't know david if you're seeing anything motion on any of that.

E

Spend there's been motion, but it's been backwards: yeah yeah, so.

I

It doesn't count and then the question is realistically, you know given the climate, what it, what issues are we you.

B

Know, as a committee are, we are we interested in in bringing forward and testifying because.

B

You know, if do we want to bring up the hotel occupancy again or do we kind of feel like.

B

That so what do we think about the the makeup of the house with that this time, regardless.

A

Of the the hotel occupancy do we need a super majority of the the democrats to make it happen.

A

There any republicans that are feeling the pinch. I think one of the things that needs to happen.

E

For that to happen, is it needs to be paired with something else, so it it's one of those.

E

Issues that doesn't necessarily boil down to democrat there's a lot of it that boils down.

E

To dems versus republicans, but there's there's a part of it that also just boils down to you know.

E

Cities with more tourist business, you know like portsmouth, manchester nashville, bigger.

E

Cities, bigger places, more tourists conventions- centers you know- are collecting all of this. This.

E

Revenue and there's an argument yeah, they should be allowed more to keep it, but then you know the.

E

Same cities and towns that we're talking about that have to raise their property tax rates to.

E

Crazy levels to pay for their schools would be getting less money coming in if we went if.

E

Portsmouth and cities, you know, city, if cities like portsmouth took more money out of it. So so I mean.

E

You know to me, I know the linkage is sort of it's a little bit convoluted and hard to see, but but.

E

From the perspective of getting something passed um it sometimes it boils down to an issue of.

E

You know big town versus small town, sure I don't know. If we're quite the big we're not you know, I.

A

Don't know if we qualify as a big big city, um I've been saying recently there's a reason why.

A

There's a boat on the state flag. You know, I think, we're the best place to live in new hampshire, but.

A

The uh I guess, if it's looked at we're going to lose the argument all day if it's looked at you.

A

Know, uh fort smith wants to keep more of what uh portsmouth gets, because we don't, you know, believe.

A

That we should share anything with the state we share. You know upwards of 30 million dollars with.

A

The state and get 1.8 million dollars back and the result of that is taxpayers in portsmouth.

A

Having an undue burden, even though this is benefiting the state, and we recognize that.

A

But focusing on the you know the it's and we see it in portsmouth now and you know representative.

A

You see it I'm sure when it comes to uh you know the push against any sort of development or any.

A

Hotel or any feeling of like what has this gotten us in fort smith, it's got me higher taxes. It's.

A

Gotten me, you know more police, more fire, you know bigger ladder, trucks, bigger capital, improvements.

A

To deal with the five-story hotels, and none of that comes back to lowering my taxes even.

A

Though you know, uh it's slowed, the the creep up of you know taxes, because we have a higher.

A

Commercial rate, so you know, if not a you know another way to do it would be from a compelling.

A

Argument of okay: what are we gonna? What would we require from businesses that are are delivering.

A

um uh These services can we compel them to have better uh books and records that they have to.

A

Submit to the cities and and municipalities when it comes to valuing their commercial properties.

A

Because right now, there's no requirement to to do that. Right now, uh roseanne looks at the the.

A

The apartments from a commercial's tax base is what they're you know. Charging in works.

A

Backwards but there's no reporting uh standpoint for for that and the abatements. You know you know.

A

There's a different rule book for people with higher powered attorneys that are going to come.

A

And ask for a tax abatement on a commercial property versus you know the neighbors that.

A

We can live next to that. Just don't have the the doesn't make maybe financial sense for them to.

A

Hire attorney to to do so because they're not going to get you know three million bucks off.

A

Their valuation so like there's a lot there that it doesn't necessarily, I guess like instead of.

A

Looking at it from a standpoint of we need this fee like we need more equity in terms of the.

A

Benefit that these businesses are bringing to the state and the cost that it's costing individual.

A

Communities that have to do that's a good way to afford that that's a good way to frame it.

E

Because I think a lot a lot of times in the legislature, it just gets framed. As you know, a rich.

E

City wants a bigger slice of the pie and I think that that's that's a very easy way to communicate.

E

It you know, on average, we are now we're up against, on average, we're now a richer city, but the average.

A

Is it's just a blend of you know the the the very fortunate that have moved into a town that was.

A

At least when I was born, you know a navy town that you know there's still people.

A

Living here that are not those super rich that are looking at on a daily basis of whether or.

A

Not they take the equity of their house and and leave to places unknown and so on average we're.

A

Wealthier, but that's only because we've had more rich people move in like there's still.

A

A lot of people that can't afford the taxes and are pressed against, put the ability to require.

C

Commercial building so that you can do an income-based appraisal as opposed to just a.

C

Market appraisal that roseanne will tell you that that could make a big difference right.

G

Tax, in addition to the state tax, so if we could levy any additional, you.

G

Know percentage on top of the state tax to rooms and meals as a city, rooms and meals, tax.

G

If we have that enabling legislation that would be great.

G

So I would love to be able to levy an additional. You know: half percent.

G

I mean it doesn't have to be that about half percent would make.

G

Be a lot of money coming into the city, you would probably say the state is jealous of its taxing.

C

Power, it is, I want to give it away to anyone. No, but you know right, but then that's a local.

G

Decision because you're impacting your businesses in town, so you would be wise about it. Yep and I.

A

Would think just you know, like there's a lot of things that we do in the you know. I think if we.

A

Were to go down the path of an additional fee or additional tax or additional percentage, you know.

A

All of those things would require a strong support of the chamber of commerce's and and with that.

A

Would become a requirement to put those efforts into things that we would already be doing. Anyways.

A

That we do, as a matter of you know, delivering from you know, either parking related activities.

A

Or things like that, like from a beautification standpoint for the downtown that improved tourism.

A

Have a general like it's easier for us to spend money as a city of portsmouth on beautification.

A

Infrastructure projects that draw more people to this to the city and thus the state, if that was.

A

A separate and different uh revenue stream from a a tax base that doesn't seem to want a lot of.

A

People focused on the downtown when there's a lot of things that they could focus on. So if there's.

A

A separate you know it would free up a general fund to focus on some of the needs and maybe not.

A

The wants of the business and tourism community and be able to, but that would be a a heavy you.

A

Know requirement, and you know we had it what four years ago, with lister about six years ago, when it.

A

Was like a you know, it was pushing from a it, was pushing the chambers of commerce that were also.

A

You know on board with that in hampton, but since then you know that's fallen off, it seems like we.

A

Don't have the you know, we might have that. No, you know. Ben van camp was talking about some volunteer.

A

Type things they do in the upper valley and that's sort of you know, went by the wayside um as.

A

I would expect, um and so having the chamber if it's an additional like and having carve outs.

A

For that, so it can be positioned, as this is how we would grow the tourism pie. For you know the.

A

Entire state, it benefits, you know, you know other communities when more people come up to portsmouth.

A

We're great we got all the things you could possibly need, except you know, maple syrup, you.

A

Know so, there's other places to go for that. You know. There's a lot of you know we're a gateway to.

A

A lot of tourism and it would benefit the state if we did that but we'd have to have the the chambers.

A

On board, um with with something like that, you know, I think it'd be tough to require. I think the.

A

Pushback is that the state isn't modif. They don't have the system to actually carve out where, like.

A

um You know like if you're a dunks, like you know like, are you you're sending in you know, you're.

A

Sevening revenue or something to the state, but how do you carve that out from like a like a per you.

A

Know, city standpoint: that's the that's what I've heard in the past that they don't have the ability.

A

To do that to find that somewhat ridiculous. But um you know knowing that secretary of state's.

A

Website it's, you know, there's a lot. It's a lot of work in progress there on the I.t side, so.

A

um But that would be another way that we could get the same.

D

Get the same out and that's just equity around you know, like you know, we know, like all of the.

A

The commercial you know, like my house, that does one commercial thing it gets sold or it doesn't.

A

Get sold and I have to declare that you know that actual when it turns into a commercial enterprise.

A

For me, I have to report that to the state get a tax stamp, all of that, but businesses don't have to.

A

Do that on a yearly basis when they're getting you know, revenues based on this commercial property.

A

So that might be another way that we could skin that cat. I've always wondered too. I mean you're.

C

Opposite party, on the other side of the aisle, always likes improvement districts.

C

You know, is there a? Is there a pathway to um downtown improvement districts where.

C

Localities could say we're going to make this attractive for tourism, but we're going to have a.

C

A tax increment to do that in this downtown district.

C

I don't know if there's any legislative path to that.

E

I'm not sure that that is that's one. I would talk to senator perkins.

E

Districts and things like that right, you know assisting stuff that that's worth a look.

C

That's the that's the thing that I think that we're always up against is we. You know.

E

They're, you know we have to create a balanced budget every time there is only so much money.

E

um Sometimes uh the federal government comes in and rescues. You.

E

um Other times it doesn't and uh and the rescues don't necessarily need to be fair.

E

Or regular, they can happen whenever they happen, uh so something on just on just on that reminded.

A

Me of a question that I had earlier: is it possible to have an easier reporting when it comes to how.

A

Much the state is spending because we have hb1, which talks hp. One talks about how much this.

A

All the programs that you're entitled in hb2 has all the money that you raise.

A

um To pay for that, but it doesn't also include the money that you're receiving from uh federal.

A

Offsets the best breakdown that I've seen is um and I'd have to look on their website. You have.

E

To kind of poke around and find stuff, but new hampshire fiscal policy institute has a really.

E

Good breakdown of, like all the areas of this, that the state spends money on and that it has another.

E

Really good breakdown on all the different revenue sources and uh I'm always sending.

E

It off to new legislators who it would be really great, because in city of portsmouth, we've got to.

A

Say this is our budget. This is the budget that we spend money on and it goes up or goes down.

A

um Goes up and that's what we spend money on it'd be really great. If there could be a clear.

A

And concise, transparent, so folks can understand at home not that we, you know we only are raising.

A

This much so taxes are only going up x, amount but like this is the actual, like you know, because I.

A

Think it would be helpful for one people to know how much money we get from the federal government.

A

You know from uh uh from you know, especially in the last couple of years like in terms of.

A

Code balancing uh the budget that would it would be helpful from a transparency standpoint to see.

A

Like what the state budget is on a year and a year out basis and and how we can track to see.

A

You know just to see that that would be helpful because the you know it's a balanced budget.

A

Sure, but it's a but understanding like the budget you know goes up would be helpful.

A

From a municipal standpoint to make arguments the way it's shown sometimes too, like there's.

E

A there's a big section for uh for health and human services uh and which includes things.

E

Like the medicaid contribution sure you know so enormous, basically, it's an enormous pile of cash.

E

That isn't really broken down into component parts, so you can really sort of see what it.

E

Looks like, but it does give you an idea. You know what the big areas are, that we spend money on.

E

And then, on the on the revenue side, there are some mythbusters, you know. So a lot of people think that.

E

um You know: we've we fund education uh through the lottery and two and through um you know.

A

40 years of crusaders- and things like that- and you find oh no, it's actually just this little.

E

Tiny sliver, what is it it's? Like 50 years of the lottery, it's raised, half of one year's budget. It's.

A

Like one, how is it like one point? Eight billion dollars of the course of the lottery is enough.

A

Money to pay for one half of one year's education budget in the state of new hampshire. Sometimes I.

E

Wonder if we're you know, if we're, we should invest half of the school budget and lottery tickets.

I

I

Well, I think um so september. The filing is open september 11th. um I don't know if we will.

A

uh I think our general uh consensus is the the same.

A

Some of the same bills uh in the past to continue down uh that and you know we do have.

A

um You know rebecca or senator perkins spoke out to to help us from uh you know a leader, but are.

A

There bills that you're focused on representative. That would that we should be aware of that. You're.

A

Going to be introducing their their criminal justice guys, so a lot of them have been most of.

E

Give you kind of a quick idea, I mean um one issue: I've been digging into. Is the placement.

E

Of uh children and out-of-state schools and treatment facilities, so I've been working with.

E

A child advocate to figure out. If they're should we um should we basically pass a bill that says.

E

We we can't do that anymore. Should we create a study committee further into the issue, but the.

E

Thing is we've gotten to a point where it seems like the legislature needs to give dcyf a nudge.

E

um More, maybe more than just a nudge in the situation. We're in with the sununu center is the.

E

Senior news center is going to be shutting down. We've already got it down to about a dozen kids.

E

And the whole issue with those kids in tennessee has made me think, is that what we've been doing.

E

We've been instead of sending kids to the sununu center or we've been shipping them out of state.

E

What's the process for doing this and we're not even doing on-site certifications, so that's.

E

That's one thing: um uh one of the things that I'm personally tied up a lot in is we're trying to.

E

Rework the bills regarding bail, the bail system in new hampshire um and, hopefully, we're going.

E

To get to some sort of a bipartisan approach that will kind of address some of the pain points that.

E

Manchester has been seeing while be also being attentive to people's constitutional rights and.

E

The fact that we just can't throw people in prison just because they've committed a crime that we.

E

You know consider dangerous, as supreme court says, we can't do that without clearing convincing.

E

Evidence and nothing in the bills that have been submitted so far you know, gets us there. The.

E

What I'd say about um you know in in general about other things? There are a lot of things.

E

That are sort of in process right now, but the problem with our whole filing system is a lot of.

E

Times we don't know, you know even democrats, don't necessarily know what democrats are going to file.

E

And we certainly don't know what people on the other side of the aisle and the independents are.

E

Going to file until we start seeing things about two weeks after the filing deadline, where the lsrs.

E

Start to appear on the website and by that time it. If we, if you know, if we look at it and we say well.

E

Gee nobody's filed a bill on this or nobody's filed a bill on that. You know what we have to.

E

Do is pick up a phone and call a senator and say: hey. We missed the boat, we should have filed the.

E

Bill here you know: can we work on this bill and- and there was a bill like that- that I worked on.

E

um You know in the last session where we were past smiling date, so it can be done and that bill.

E

Actually got signed by the governor, um but there's you know there are ways to make things happen, but.

E

It just gets exponentially more difficult. um The the other thing that I would say too, is.

E

The stuff that's going on now in portsmouth, where you know we're you know we're actually showing.

E

The world that you can build workforce housing, you can have good, robust discussions about.

E

Workforce, housing and and creating affordable housing. Those stories really resonate in other.

E

Parts of the state and one of the things that you know to be aware of in in terms of the bills you.

E

Might expect to see there will probably be a fair amount of additional bills that try to chew into.

E

Local control, when it comes to housing and so the more we can show people that these committees in.

E

In the way that we do things at the local level can work, you know we can get workforce housing.

E

Built we can get affordable housing built. The more stories like that that there are to share.

E

The less likely it is that somebody's going to come in and say you guys can't do that anymore.

E

We're taking away your ability to do that, we're taking away your power in this area.

E

And we're going to give it to some state board. That's you know as long as we have as long as we.

E

Have a housing crisis I mean in in this state that that's a real risk for people at the local level.

E

um And- and I tell you it's a lot- it's a lot easier to pass a law that takes power away.

E

From a municipality that it is to give powers to a municipality.

E

You know so that just a note of caution, so we I think the.

A

We're not always uh in portsmouth the uh shiny example and there's many examples of one of.

A

A zoning board or planning board might deny things, but that's because we're looking at a.

A

Larger breadth of trying to get things done, you know I feel like we should be able to make these.

A

Decisions, but that's because they live in a community where we do mostly make the right.

A

Decision on that, I think some of those local control things would would you know negatively.

A

Impact if they view it as negatively some of our neighbors uh much more so than than us, and while I.

A

You know I would like to you know any any changes to to local control. I hope would be aligned with.

A

A understanding of you know levels to get there and not a broad blanket. uh You know california.

A

Approach of okay, 200 miles or 200 20 miles of this, you kind of lose it. If you don't have a plan, we do.

A

Have a plan to you know: increase housing density and housing stock. I think the the efforts of.

A

Educating boards, I think they know exactly what they're doing you know like. I don't know if, like.

A

I'm gonna spend a lot of time, educating a zoning board about getting more housing and why it could.

A

Be effective, I think they they know what they're doing and when they're making their decisions.

A

You know, certainly in other communities on for preventing uh preventing uh housing, but I would.

A

Just hope that if there's there's broad reach from the state to try to do this, as there was with adus.

A

Under martha, fuller clark, which you know turned out, okay- that it would understand the uh that the.

A

The communities are were not created equally in terms of how we've been looking to address this.

A

Thus far, I don't think that the rules that would come would be a negative impact on us, um but the.

A

uh You know they should be a should. Definitely look at. You know some of the communities that.

A

Yeah say no housing allowed in this commercial zone type type thing before we're going to start.

A

Moving to things like no, you know every every house immediately becomes a four-person house.

A

Because that's just going to get more people pissed off about their neighborhoods versus.

A

When the bigger fish or the folks that have have made zoning so restrictive that there's no you're.

A

Not talking four units talking about talking one unit um so like focusing on areas where you would.

A

Have the biggest return with the least amount of pushback from the folks and that's you know.

A

Around I think, residential units in commercial areas that have so far been blocked off from.

A

Because there's there's already an infrastructure that exists there.

A

Yeah, um I'd also love to see something around um absentee ownership from out of state owners.

G

So corporate ownership buying up housing to to rent these out of state entities.

G

um You know, maybe you get a homestead exemption in the education standpoint too yeah, just like you.

A

Live in your house, we get a homestead exemption and then just raise the uh you know uh raise the.

A

uh It would be have to. I don't know how that would be a you know, aligned constitutionally, but the.

A

Homestead exemption would be um something that you know would incentivize, hopefully, people to to live.

A

In you know the houses that they buy and not just turn them to airbnbs, have we seen in portsmouth.

E

um I know it's an issue in other states, but um uh private equity firms coming in and buying.

E

Single-Family homes and rental properties and then jacking up the rates and yep there. We have.

A

Some you know uh I get calls on a pretty frequent basis of folks that have if it's.

A

Not a private equity, it's a property management company that comes and buys the property moves.

A

Everybody out they're looking for places to live, and then they have. You know basically.

A

um You know they're told that they're gonna make improvements and those improvements are going.

A

To result, in you know doubling of the rent. That's a probably a weekly call of you know.

A

Somebody reaching out on on that mm-hmm then there's real estate investment trusts.

A

But I you know, I don't know if we're gonna like it's it's it's.

A

The one thing that we can do in portsmouth to lower the cost of housing is to make it.

A

A crappy place to live, I'm sorry, let's make it what a crappy place to live. You're right, we can.

A

Like if we, if we all of a sudden said, you know what we're gonna blow up the sewage treatment.

A

Plant and we're just we're just turning that hose right into piscataqua property values, so.

A

So it's you know, I guess like I, I appreciate the effort. That's been very developer, focused of like.

A

Let's make it easier to build, I think that it would be nice to see the legislature focus on.

A

Things that are like you know, we are we're not in the new hampshire housing market, regardless.

A

Of what you know folks might think in concord we are in boston, even new york, housing market. So, like.

A

Creating more opportunities to create affordable housing like below market rate housing. I just I.

A

Don't think that we're going to have a chance to correct the market without destroying everything.

A

That everybody likes about uh you know the places that that we live. We are just not there's not a.

A

There's not enough houses that we could. We could put that are going to lower unless we.

A

Somehow reduce the demand for our houses and we are sitting on top of massachusetts with a lot.

A

Of people that they come up to new hampshire, they go, I can work remotely. I can get down to boston.

A

You know a couple times a month. This is great. Why would I live anywhere else, um and so that's.

A

What we're contending with- and I I appreciate the you know, the efforts that have been for developer.

A

Focus there, but I think that there should be some sort of incentivization from a you know.

A

You know if it's a room and meals like you know, there should be more money that allows us to to.

A

Do some of those below market rate housing projects that we'd like to do uh here and.

A

So far, the 100 million dollars have been focused on just shovel rated projects that have you know.

A

That make it just de-risk it for developers.

C

Annapolis and some other cities are experimenting with allowing greater density.

C

Single-Family lots can be doubles, triples um and scrapping parking requirements, all right.

A

That's the that's the thing, that's the parking and that's like an us thing like we gotta like.

A

We gotta get andrew, you know and and pts to have a city-wide parking program so that we can actually.

A

Limit the parking that people can have assigned to their housing because nobody wants to like.

A

Literally, nobody wants to have a house built next to them and then three more cars out there. That's.

A

Not what they signed up for when they bought their house and like to hope that people are.

A

Going to be altruistic in their choices for their own individual life, it's you know, they're, not.

A

Sitting, you know they didn't run for council, they didn't, you know they. They they're not.

A

Running for state legislature, they are focused, you know, on their lives as they should be, and.

A

um But the parking is the thing that kills people the most. So another aspect you know and what we.

A

Would I guess remind me, like we spent a pittance on coast and we're talking about like losing more.

A

Funding coast so like if we want a regional focus on you know, housing we've got to make it easier to.

A

To move around without uh without parking a car, you can own a car but everybody's going to own.

A

A car likely in new hampshire because we live in new hampshire but like reduce the amount of.

A

Time so you have to go park that car to go to work would be fantastic and it would be a big.

A

Boom for uh for for us uh here in portsmouth, but it would be a great boon for you know we notice.

A

It now and that there's a lot of people that you know the nightlife in the downtown there's a lot.

A

Of service workers that are not living downtown anymore, because they've been priced out, so it's.

A

Quiet down there at night and they're, taking that money back to you know over the bridge.

A

You know like it's, that's actually happening, but transportation would be another big thing that you.

A

Know coast funding is just you know that got saved by some federal money, but, like that's a big thing,.

A

That like we need to make sure, because it's going to be like a hit to our budget of like a million.

A

Bucks over on an annual cases for like three years, which is hard to imagine, but the seniors they're.

A

Going to look behind if we don't do something like that is going to be pretty catastrophic and it.

A

Could be, you know it could be actually useful for for people that are going to get, uh or that would.

A

Benefit from that not having to park the car now trying to get rid of cars, people love cars, they.

A

Need cars in new hampshire do all the fun things that we do in new hampshire, but they don't need.

A

Them to go to work, or they shouldn't need them to go to work as much as they. Oh, I think, if you could.

C

All the master plans 2005. come on have said: we need better transportation and.

C

It would it had a loop that went up into the west end and brought people down to.

C

Work and then they could take that home yeah. If you, if we could be a city where.

C

A young person or a young couple didn't have to have a car. That's a very attractive position.

C

To be, but it's really hard to get there. I have neighbors like this. Well, I have neighbors without.

G

Parking and so neighbor across the streets, two adults, one infant- they have one car, they don't.

G

Have two cars: they have one car. We got a car. Now I got a moped, it's pretty cool that moped.

D

There's always a link well david, what's or representative, what's the best time to uh if.

A

There are additional um in uh additional things I think, there's a jane. Would it be uh fair to say.

A

That we have a list of the the the the frequent flyers of of legislation that we've put forth.

A

Before sure yeah- and maybe we revise that and send it to uh to you in the in the interim as.

A

A representative here and share with the entire delegation here but the um the goal is, um you know.

A

Especially on the you know, I'm not trying to like charge into the breach again on the on the the.

A

Roman meal stacks, without like felt like last time, we brought it. It was not coordinated uh well from.

A

uh Like just a like different municipalities and the different stakeholders that need to be a part.

A

Of it, like I'm, happy to reach out to the chamber of commerce and say this would be something.

A

That, I think, is you know important. We could align that to you know. Maybe it's to you know.

A

Affordable housing, something along those lines, tax credits that we could give to.

A

People building, affordable housing. All of these you know like to increase the. I guess, like.

A

There needs to be more work before it kind of gets to your plate on that, because just introducing a.

A

Bill without the people that are like that feel as though they're a part of that bill means they're.

A

Not going to come testify on that bill. One of the things we can do is um you have to file the bill.

E

You know when you create a legislative service request that just basically kicks ols into action.

E

Office of legislative services into action to just create you know a bill, then what they do is they.

E

Send it back to you for amendments, okay, and so what have so it effectively happens? Is you get.

E

Anywhere from what another, three to four weeks after the filing period, where, basically, you can.

E

Take out almost everything in the original bill and just substitute it with something else. Why.

A

Don't we do then, maybe as an order of operations, uh the filing period ends the 14th. There is two.

A

Weeks before they come back and then we still have an additional two weeks to amend those bills.

A

Yes, it might make sense to schedule a meeting in that delta between the time that you have.

A

To amend and when we see what has been filed by everyone and we'll give you a list of things that.

A

We would hope to see to have the opportunity to discuss again after the filing period and before.

A

It's definitively needs to kind of be put to. uh That would be. That would be good okay, so we can.

E

um I have seen some of the preliminary ideas and- and I think there was a legislator who was going.

E

To do something on the rooms and meals tax. What you try to do is rather than picking up a bill.

E

That got killed, you know one or two terms. What you try to do is to look at the different bills over.

E

The years and say, is there a different way we can come at this or is there kind of a combination of.

E

Things or what was the failure point on this bill? So what you don't want to do is just submit a bill.

E

That was submitted two years ago and then face the same thing all over again, so that that's kind of.

A

The challenge save the trip to concord on on on on that myself, just going yep. Thank you. uh Member.

A

Cochran we'll see you later, you know, oh, I know so. If there's a if um I do think having the chamber.

A

Very much involved the last always the time that that it got some traction. The chamber was pushing.

A

Forward it makes a huge difference when it's not just the guy from the municipal association.

E

Up there by himself or the mayor portsmouth, you know or portsmouth just in general, because they.

A

Think we, you know, we paint, you, know gold, bullion, red and put it in our size, and it makes I mean.

E

This is how stuff gets done. I mean they, you know if you, if you have a basically a conga line of.

E

People that get they get up there, they, you know they they make their points effectively. They give.

E

Good examples: they're, not people, that you see that these committees see every day. That's what really.

E

Kind of gets the attention of people, it's almost like people's people see an orange badge and they.

E

Go to sleep sure yeah, you know on the rooms and meals I think like they're. Looking at you know.

A

They're looking at giving us a you know we're so far: we've we've focused our efforts on that and.

A

Talking about, we want a piece of this pie and uh I think what would be effective with the chamber.

A

Is like, how can we grow the pie for new hampshire? What would it take for portsmouth to be a part of.

A

Growing that pie for the state of new hampshire, and that would also include us getting a bigger.

A

Piece of that pie because of you know all the pushback that we have from a from a just a.

A

Local level about the investment that we already make in our downtown, when we know we could make.

A

More investment uh there to spur more. You know investment from outside folks. That would then.

A

End up, you know, rooms and meal. Stacks would go out to the state, but we would you know we would.

A

Have more of that, but so grow growing the pie versus growing the rate, because we've actually.

E

Reduced the rate: that's right! That's right! So I'm changing the map a little bit, but that's the.

A

um Okay and then so after after september, after the filing period we will have, or before the.

A

Filing period, we will give you a list of things as more os placeholders of things.

A

That we would like to come back on after the filing period and in that meeting we will have.

A

um A a more nuanced or a a more tightly a tight agenda on those things that we would like. You're.

A

In the delegation's health with in concord, and if those things can be can be sketched.

E

Out well enough, what what ols typically will do is you can basically say I would like a bill that.

E

Accomplishes these three things kind of like this love in minnesota or whatever, and you can.

E

Send them the copy of that law and then what what they'll come back to you with is basically a draft.

E

That says: well, here's the statute. We think that that goes into here are the other statutes that.

E

It needs to cross reference to here's a way to say that and you, I would say nine times out of.

E

Ten, it's not what you wind up going with. You know you, you wind up, making other changes, but.

E

But what it can do is it can get you there a lot of the legislation. I write because it's.

E

Criminal justice, typically criminal justice relationship. I actually write the legislation.

E

um As opposed to looking for ols to write the legislation, but in something like this, this is.

E

An area where it may actually be helpful to it and I think, on the commercial value, is asian or.

A

Evaluation of of properties giving more authority, I think, there's especially because next you know.

A

We will see it in portsmouth and I don't know if other towns have looked at it the same way. We will.

A

See commercial property likely dip next year, so it will be. You know it will be a good time if we're.

A

Going to change the formula at all or add anything to the formula that would allow us to maintain.

A

That it would be a positive thing. It would be a positive time, at least in portsmouth, because we've.

A

Delayed our revaluations until the mandatory five-year reporting. So if we could have more.

A

Information on that that wasn't simply sale prices and know that sale prices are limited, especially.

A

In this economic, you know you know, environment we find ourselves in would be a a positive thing and.

A

Then it's less like we got to end up spending a ton of money with abatements, because sale prices.

A

Are a shitty way or a bad way to do uh you know to to identify commercial property, and then it.

A

Could also you know like it could be helpful, it could be an argument to say hey, like you know, if.

A

This is what they're choosing you know it could incentivize. You could put like a local business.

A

Spin on this and like this is not a bank, you know like we shouldn't be looking at this building as.

A

A as a potential bank and rating against that, because their downtowns are more vibrant. When.

A

We don't just have you know just banks there. If this is a person, that's using this. You know this.

A

Property, for you know a cafe which we we all you know, know and love. They shouldn't be necessarily.

A

Penalized uh for that, we can look at that, but I think there's something there from tables one.

E

Thing I like about what you're talking about is to to get a bill through. There are ways that you.

E

Have to message it, and sometimes like one of the worst situations to be in, is to have a bill. You.

E

Really want to pass and you look at the language of the bill and it's really hard to make it to to.

E

Get your message to aligned with it the way the bill that it that it's written and sometimes you.

E

Know if you, if you, if you create a bill, I mean, if essentially, if there's a message you want want to.

E

Send an outcome you want to achieve, and you design a bill to that achieves that outcome in in a way.

E

That less that lets you message it effectively. um You can kind of bake that into the bill itself,.

E

And it just makes it, and I mean a a really simple example of how you do that or the or.

E

The the bills that are that we see periodically around victims, rights or things like that, where.

E

It's it's angie's bill, it's phillips bill and it's related directly to a particular case, and it makes.

E

It easier for people to get their arms around it and also makes it harder for people to oppose it.

E

Even if they have good reasons to oppose it, yep, oh and victim advocates bills have been effective.

A

That the yeah- you know the, I don't think, there's been a time when I've gone to conquer and haven't.

A

Feeding on the drama of vocal control, you know because it seems like that's that aligns to.

A

Some of the municipal folks that serve on maybe the other side of the aisle from myself there.

A

But the you know the local control and commercial valuation you know um uh bill would be you know. I.

A

Think there's a to be able to choose to be able to to enact that on a local level, but we could figure.

A

Out a ma and pop uh shop that we could, you know you could call them if you, if you got the ability.

C

To require income for appraisals, you could call that the hilton garden bill, because, on the books.

C

For the city, at 23 million it sold for 41., oh, the reason it sold for 40 is because it has an income.

C

Stream, yeah, that that justifies borrowing that much money wow much equity. But we can't use that.

A

In the you know in the because they don't have to give that to us, and so we are, and they have.

A

A bunch of lawyers that are coming in looking for abatements on all this on all these things.

A

And they beat us up over that and it's you know at the same time we don't want to you know we don't.

A

Like and roseanne will say this, she doesn't want to go and value every building, as if it's like you.

A

Know a hilton garden inn or uh you know a bank crop because that will kill the local. You know.

A

Businesses that like, if they showed like hey this, is what you're making. This is the rent that would.

A

Be a better way to incentivize, you know, like those local, you know those local uh stores and give them.

A

A chance, you know to say, hey like yeah like yeah, we we don't want to drive out our local retailers.

A

In the downtown portsmouth like because we know that uh you know it will we will get more tax.

A

Revenue until we will get no tax revenue or very significantly, when we turn into a completely you.

A

Know corporateized downtown so like having the ability to see those revenue uh dollars would.

A

Be you know, and they you know some of the local retailers will share that you know uh voluntarily.

A

But it's not, you know it's it's. You know some of the ones that making a ton more money will not.

A

And that's, I think, where they're you know, I'd be interested to talk to you know we should probably.

A

Talk to roseanne about this to see what are like the downsides, and maybe the constitutionality of.

A

This, but if we could have a requirement for just how much money you know they are, you know those.

A

Inca or those properties are producing, that would be a huge help for our our ability to one weather.

A

The storm with the commercial properties dropping because commercial sale prices have dropped.

A

And and two you know continue to shift towards a you know. We could get the same out of the the the.

A

Roman meals tax, without actually getting a room meals tax- if we just got it out of the valuations.

A

Because that's something we've been asked up, there is like well, aren't you getting this revenue like.

A

Already it's like: no, we don't actually know how much we're getting uh from from that yeah.

C

Yeah market prices for commercial buildings will fall and there'll be a smaller percentage of the.

C

Tax base, what commercial used to be, what 40 46, I think it's height, it's probably going to fall.

C

Down into the low 40s, which means that burden shifts onto the local property taxpayer, I don't.

E

Think we we have seen- and you know in terms of just commercial real estate, there are places.

E

um My old company was based out in lincolnshire illinois in the suburbs and um that whole area.

E

Now places like uh lake forest deerfield, where the housing market was just going crazy before cobit.

E

Has just completely fallen back down to earth like the company that I work for used to employ 20.

E

000 people in lincolnshire alone now they employ zero, they're moving to they've, moved to chicago.

E

They've, you know a lot of their people who used to come to work in offices. Every day are now working.

E

Out of their homes, the shared they're going to have a shared office space set up in in chicago.

E

It's just it's like the nature of work, as cobit has fundamentally changed the nature of a lot.

E

Of work, we all drive by the in maplewood avenue project that brand new building with heinemann and.

C

The first floor is empty and yep, so the commercial yeah. um So I think there could be. You know like a.

A

We hear it a lot from folks in terms of taxes, commercial, you know.

A

Building and property owners and roseanne tries to do this as best she can. You know with knowing.

A

That like, if she were to to get the maybe the 40 million dollars out of the hilton garden.

A

Inn then it would mean getting you know. Putting I don't know like: what's uh got some rubies out.

A

Of business you know like so it's macro polo, you know so it she does do that. You know nuance, but.

A

We get hurt because we don't end up we're not able to get the hilton garden inns that that.

A

Could pay more uh versus the you know the micro poll that defined enforcement, but maybe can yep.

A

All right, I want to be cognizant of everybody's time jane, uh thank you or our senior assistant.

A

City attorney, um I uh so um if we can uh we'll have a meeting scheduled for a time uh between.

A

um The 11th and the 11th and 15th and we will work to deliver to the delegation.

A

Yourself included representative muse, a list of bills that we would like to have a ability.

A

To further amend in the in the future, um by uh let's try to do that by september, 7th and.

A

We'll meet after the following period is is, and just so you know on the the 14th and 15th I have.

E

um Retained bill committee hearings in concrete that are going to be all day work sessions. Oh.

A

So we're thinking so we want to. We want to see like what the when they start, trickling back in.

A

So we'll be two weeks after maybe two: it would be at the end of september likely that we would meet.

A

Again, okay and then, and then um uh from the uh the first to the 14th, I'm actually going to egypt.

E

Where are you going, oh yeah? So where are you going in egypt you're going on one of those.

A

Now cruises, uh but that's part of it: uh it's with a company called road scholar, okay yeah. It was a.

G

Great company yeah, it's like a non-profit and what they do is they and which is a.

E

Great way to go because it's a lot, a lot less and you stay in the same places and go on the.

E

Same ships as you would, if you took a tour on with smithsonian or one of the other tour companies, but.

E

um You know it it for what you get. I mean you're, seeing you know, cairo, the egyptian museum.

E

Going through the like the the coptic quarter of cairo- and I mean it's like not just like the.

E

Ancient egyptian stuff, but a lot of modern-day egypt, things and um and then going to abu simbal.

E

And places like that, I mean you really do see. Lake nassar. uh You really get a pretty good overview of.

E

The whole of the whole country- and it's been kind of like a bucket list thing and when you get to.

E

Be my age, you know it's like you start to and you're up in concord. I appreciate all the work.

A

You do you deserve to go. That's something to look forward to be excellent. uh Well, enjoy the trip.

A

And I'd wait a motion to adjourn so moved. Second, all in favor hi. Thank you, representative muse.