City of Portsmouth, New Hampshire Organic Land Care Subcommittee, 31 Aug 2022

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From YouTube: 8.31.2022 Conservation Commission Subcommittee: Sustainable Land Care

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8.31.2022 Conservation Commission Subcommittee: Sustainable Land Care

A

Google, doc, okay, so it's okay with you! We just put on record and.

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That way, the other members can see it later. No, that's fine.

A

Awesome, um so our agenda that kate nicely sent out for today is just an update.

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And my tats, like that's what you're gonna have to make, so I just saw that in the last one.

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In the last meeting, we were talking about having two miniature teams.

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So one working on ordnance, stuff and one working on outreach and like the workshop.

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I know I thought we divided into groups, but I couldn't remember who was doing what okay.

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I don't know if there's been any progress but yeah, so we're just going to do kind of another.

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Business first dianna, that's okay, but um I'll. Just let you know who we all are. um I'm barbara.

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Mcmillan um conservation, commission, chair and member of this subcommittee and then we have.

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Yeah: hey dan, I'm lynne; vaccaro, I'm a member of the conservation commission from portsmouth.

A

Hi, I'm abby gundell, also on the conservation commission and on this subcommittee, hello and.

B

I'm peter bretz, the environmental planner hi peter, I'm kato may the associate environmental planner.

A

Hi kate, nice to meet you all and diana I don't. I have not met you before and I ted speaks.

A

Very highly of you, but I don't know if you could just give us or we do get going with the meeting.

A

A little oh just an introduction sure um I I live in dover. um I worked with the city of dover.

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On their uh organic land management policy um several years ago- and um I you know, worked.

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With a community group to do that- and I run a national non-profit that helps other people.

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um To advocate for organic land care, I'm an accredited organic land care, professional.

C

I really enjoy gardening, and um this is interesting to me and I'm glad to be a part of it.

A

Great, thank you um so we'll just go over a couple of the other things. The first item on our agenda.

A

Was ordinance and outreach working groups sort of just an update and defining the tasks and, as you.

A

Said you can't remember so I kind of remember some of them yeah, so I couldn't find my own.

A

Oh yeah, I could give a tiny update yeah. I got a little email from so we have two.

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Groups, we have one that's doing kind of more of a regulation, kind of side of things and the other.

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That's really focused on the outreach with the um sustainable volunteer uh work, so um yeah, lynn and.

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Samantha are working on the regulation, part of it and um some of them sent me. Let me know, but yeah.

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Yeah, so we we got a little bit of digging around some other looked at kind of more local kind of.

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Examples of ordinances and looked a little more careful before my set of you know, regulations.

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That have maybe a little bit more expertise than I do in that space. And then I looked around a little.

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Bit like national and regional examples to see what others were doing um and then we both met.

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With abigail- and this was a lot of regenerative partnership and also a lot of expertise in this.

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So I can give just like a couple specific updates that that's helpful and then.

A

You actually have samantha's email. I don't think I can pull it up quickly, enough yeah. I do.

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So first I have the girls really helpful and she's available to kind of be a resource for us to move.

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On- and I think I mentioned this in my conservation commission meeting, but she nearly was like.

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It's exciting, you know we, you know her organization does have this small grant program.

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um But she thought this would be a good fit for that um and they're gonna do a call for.

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Applications in february of this year, I believe and they've got a little extra money, so they're.

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Capping them under 20k, less than 10k, um and she shared with us an example from exeter that had.

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Done a very similar project a few years ago, where it was both kind of a deep dive into.

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Sort of crap language for the ordinances as well as kind of a really nice outreach program, kind.

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Of hitting different audiences, um so I think you know we did want a little bit of money to.

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Like you know, hire a consultant or something to help with this, we could kind of package some of.

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These ideas that we have here around outreach, as well as maybe look at the ordinances.

A

So that was cool and then maybe this isn't super informed, but.

A

I was kind of just curious to see sort of what was kind of a landscape in terms of regulations and.

A

You know peter and kate and barb others. You might correct me if I'm wrong here, but it seems like.

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There were examples from around the country of having kind of no pesticide rules, and you know.

A

Across towns, across cities, in buffers, maybe specifically but also across town, but which.

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Is what I was kind of curious about, like whether we should be looking beyond the buffer zone?.

A

I also found examples of like phosphorus bands, so the town I came from having like.

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A total phosphorous ban, so they got all of the like all the fertilizers in the stores for like.

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Nitrogen passing, but no phosphorus, you know they really were able to do that. um I didn't find.

A

Any examples of doing like no nitrogen, which was kind of what I was wondering about yeah.

B

Right yeah and a lot like in in ann arbor, the mid-last place in the midwest they justified it.

A

Saying that you know the soils already have enough phosphorus in most cases and then there's always.

A

You know loop models, you know if you test it and you find your phosphorous deficient, then you can.

A

Do it or if you're, a commercial applicator or if you're, a golf course they always have.

A

A few you know extensions and it seems like thank you. It was more about like slow release.

A

Or maybe organic? Well, I didn't see a lot of like organic fertilizer. What would be specific.

B

Organic nitrogen, but different than regular one in terms of like the ecological impact, yeah yeah.

A

I'm not totally sure dan actually maybe could answer that better yeah. I was actually gonna yeah.

C

If you wanted to ask me about that, um so organic fertilizers are different um from synthetic ones.

C

In that um they're, typically water insoluble nitrogen, which um is what they're called like.

C

W-I-N, but that what that means um is that the nitrogen source is not readily available.

C

um So it won't mix into water and then get into your waterways. It has to be broken down.

C

By the soil microbes to be available to the plant, whereas the synthetic, nitrogen or the synthetic.

C

Fertilizers are immediately available to the plant, but the plant can't necessarily take up all that.

C

Nitrogen or phosphorus, and so a lot of it will leach off, whereas with the organic fertilizers.

C

They tend to have a much lower nitrogen rate and, obviously for lawns. You want to have zero.

C

Phosphorous um so if you're applying them, um you know correctly and not you know over applying.

C

Or letting them uh go on to the hardscapes, then you're not going to have a problem with the runoff.

B

So is that because they're from organic sources, um it's because of the materials used yet so.

C

It's natural materials that aren't readily available or water soluble, so they're gonna.

C

The nitrogen comes out of them when they're broken down by the microbes in the soil.

D

Okay, so like when I put fertilizer on my lawn, um I use a very low nitrogen. I use a.

C

Five: zero: two, I think now um and I've used a six zero six, um but you have to water it in so that.

C

Breaks down the little pellets, because it's like soybean meal um and then the micro. So it takes a.

C

Little bit longer, you put the uh synthetic on it, greens up real fast and you get a flush of growth.

B

Okay, that's really helpful, so all nitrogen isn't the same. Definitely not.

A

Depends on the source and how it how it's utilized by the plant broken down. Yes,.

C

The molecule is the same from a chemistry standpoint, but we don't want to get into that.

A

Yeah so like in construction projects like timezill they'll use the synthetic nitrogen.

A

Because they want it to green up and grow really fast to stabilize very quickly.

A

That's probably not there's not a lot of situations like otherwise.

C

You don't need phosphorus to grow grass, and you do need supplemental nitrogen for.

C

Turf grass, especially high use like athletic fields, but you can get that down pretty low.

C

The amount that you need by having the healthy soil and you're going to have.

C

Natural nitrogen cycling in the soil to help feed the plant and in the rain too, we learned.

A

So you're basically saying organic nitrogen is even better than like a slow release.

A

Synthetic nitrogen, those slow release, um uh fertilizers and things actually have microplastics.

C

In them, if you ever look at them, that's how they make them. It's little tiny plastic, microbeads.

C

It's a big problem and we need to stop using those laundry, so slow release just means.

B

It's a different type of synthetic fertilizer, yes, yeah, something, I think some processors.

B

Yeah, that's the state rule too. The state rule is so released.

B

So solar resection isn't necessarily better than nitrogen. If you apply the nitrogen properly you're.

B

Probably better off with synthetic nitrogen than slow, releasing and then organic's the best.

A

I mean that would be that too right, not just density but like insert it into the soil. A little.

A

Bit right, I don't know, I don't think much about it well, yeah and I'm not applying too much applying.

A

It at the right time of year right, you know, based on where the weather, the weather, um I've never put.

D

A fertilizer on a lot in my life, and I'm just like. Oh my god, thank god. I've never done that, because.

D

Then I don't have anything else but to be killed to get back. He'll kill me about at this point.

A

So I don't know if there's anything else from samantha's email that you wanted to bring out yeah.

A

I can just mention what samantha said um so she was looking, I think, a little bit at some of the.

A

Other just some of the other things to think about with regulation that makes sense yeah. I think you.

C

Were thinking like if we're going to look at the buffer rules, is there anything else to add.

A

In there or trees or light or yeah vegetation and knowing and cutting whatever so she had um aquifer.

A

Maybe aquifer protection um looking, although act I mean you, could you guys could probably.

A

Speak computer to the aquifer protection in the history of the city. I mean there's.

A

A fair amount that has been already researched and identified, and in the past I don't really.

B

Have a lot a lot of a lot to say about it other than I know that city, wells and city.

B

Or drinking water supplies, but other than that I don't know of any output, protection programs or.

B

Requirements so, if you're near a well there's a sanitary distance and then an aqua protection.

B

Radius, which is set by the state, it's usually about a quarter mile and we've done work with that.

B

To try to educate people within that area that they're in a drinking water, potentially that's.

A

About all I know about, but we have identified sort of through swords source, water protection.

A

Identified what the amplifiers are- yeah they're mapped yeah, at least they're. In our gis. I don't.

B

Know why it's distributed is and how much outreach they do these days to property owners. But I know.

B

There was an outlet program and I think they still do, but I don't I'm not it's a water department.

B

Yeah, because I know there was a piece out on off on.

A

Lafayette that piece that we were looking at with the name of it and it was part of the aquifer.

A

No, it was in between 33 and one, but it was on the wrong side of it. I think.

A

But maybe not it's and it's not that good. I can check and see what we've done. um Looking at the.

A

Lighting restrictions and the buffer, we need to see the general what we already have for our.

A

Lighting restrictions and ordinances. Unfortunately, we have a dark sky friendly ordinance and we don't.

B

Allow any spillover of light beyond the property line of new developments, with our site reviews.

D

And they have to show that with like a whatever they call it a light bladed plan.

D

New development has no what no the light goes over from the light from.

B

The property so they're, probably so, the garage, the boundary yeah.

D

Is that part of that uh designation? That's pretty it's recent! Yes, it should be.

D

Outside the boundaries I don't know, it looks like crazy off the milk pond, so.

D

Anyway, okay yeah just wondering because I just see more and more light pollution around portsmouth.

D

So there is technically some kind of abundance. There is ordinance, it is part of the cypriot.

A

And then she had habitat protection measures like curb cuts, amphibian tunnels, noise and.

A

Light pollution, enhancement and vegetative, but diversity, blasting limitations, limiting.

A

Human interactions, we have some of that, but a lot of it. We just kind of barter back and forth on.

A

To get them, you know like the amphibian tunnels was like. We don't have anything that requires that.

A

You just have, but you want to minimize your impact and you're.

A

Crossing a wetland, please do something to address the opinions.

B

Yeah, but these are all things that are beyond the organic landcare, so she's just looking at.

B

She wants to update our ordinance exactly in general in general, if we're going to do updates.

B

And- and I think you had mentioned too and and allison has said, that there is sort of.

A

This group working on ordinances and looking at there is yeah. So this could be maybe the time to.

A

Communicate that kind of thing so just to get it kind of in the notes, I guess and then widening.

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Vegetative strip buffer strip and limiting cut areas tree cutting and replanting of trees.

A

Snow removal, management and requiring you know, plus standards, which is where we started with this.

A

Requiring of the standards and then maybe everybody started talking about- maybe.

A

You can't fertilize it go even further yeah. So what would be the next step? Stephen they're.

A

I mean I, I personally love the idea of getting like a.

A

Grant support to do something like that. What do you think peter when they're like.

A

Bringing in some sort of a planning consultant to help yeah, I think.

B

I guess I'm I mean, I don't think it's a bad idea to look at updating our ordinance, but I think.

B

When we're in a sub-community working on organic land care or sustainable men care, it gets a little.

B

Outside of what we're trying to do so, we kind of just sort of separate efforts for that. I feel like.

B

Not that it's not important, I just feel like we have to. How do you keep organizing we're going to.

B

Keep expanding, you know talking about different things. So what would the consultant be asked to.

B

Do would it be just looking at organic, you know if we implemented organic land care, ordinance or.

B

Develop an ordinance that we could. You know a draft ordinance that we can.

B

Finalize and then try to bring to the city council for the you know, review.

B

um Yeah, but I do think, there's a role for it or or it's or do a big education outreach campaign.

B

To tell people what this stuff's all about and then at the same time maybe update the.

B

The city, zoning ordinance or adjust the wetland rights depending on what we decided.

A

But yeah, I think getting some support would always be helpful and get us further along and.

B

Get us more organized in terms of having a draft we could use to bring forward.

A

Mm-Hmm yeah, I don't think I'm an angry as it might feel like a little disjointed, but it.

A

Could be helpful too right because we're also like just building public support, you know for these.

A

Practices as well as potentially very important change at the same time, I don't know I guess those.

A

Are two different things? Okay, I feel like this. If you want to focus on sustainable land care.

B

That's a big thing to bite off. It could be one thing that you do to update the ordinance you.

B

Could say: we've done all this work on sustainable land care, here's what we think we need on that.

B

And then we went through, we looked at, you know our tree regulations. We think we should do with.

B

That and we went through and looked at it, and so I feel, like all those things kind of need.

B

Some time and a consultant could organize that, but you just have to decide, but you know for the grant.

B

For the grant right and what would be helpful.

A

Well, it all would be helpful. I mean it's just whether you know you're gonna, how far you're.

B

Gonna get with it, there's a lot of people trying to update ordinances right now, so we're gonna have.

B

To get in line in a sense on that, but that yeah that's it could be something that we.

B

Talk to the land use committee about and get support for the grant application so that they.

B

Know we're working on it work on it then come back to them with it and show where we're at what the.

B

Recommendations are, let's see where the council takes it with the federal market said because.

B

They would go through the this, they would go to the city council. They'd refer it to the land, use.

B

Committee on these sort of chew on it and make recommendations, and then it would go to the.

B

Council then, to the planning board, really they'd review it. Then. Ultimately, the council.

B

Has to approve it, and usually the council puts it after the funding board reviews.

B

Staff and city councilors, so beth moreau, councilman.

B

Set it up with this new council with the intent really to start looking at housing.

B

um That was the first thing they wanted to look at, but I think they've got so many women's updates.

B

Already working out, there's a height of the downtown that somehow jumped out, but.

B

I think housing is still in the books and there's other people. A lot of you know, there's climate.

B

Action stuff: the sustainability committee wants to do yeah, there's other stuff, other communities.

B

Sure so so when you say that there's so that's the queue you're talking about.

A

And a whole suite of things: okay. Well, this is just for land use. Those are zoning audiences.

B

But you need to think about and that's what the consultant could help.

B

If we're gonna adopt something city-wide, does it go into the.

B

Zoning ordinance, or does it go into a city like regulation that is separate from his.

B

Own movements, you know: how does that work, not something where it's almost like, yeah.

B

That's why I feel like it's, you know, makes sense to to try and tackle one.

B

Topic because you're gonna have that process moving forward. It's not so big, but yeah. No.

A

That makes sense, but there's always good changes when they're focused on the wetland ranks too.

A

So this doesn't compete with anything that you're thinking of doing because with in.

B

Terms of grad applications, no we're working on a great application to update our wetland.

B

City-Wide wetland map, so, however, scientists come in and look at what we have and.

B

The boundaries for changes that have happened since 2003 when they lost them.

B

So that would be just 19 years ago. Jesus doesn't feel like it was quite a while yeah, so.

A

um Okay, yeah, I mean I kind of like I don't disagree with the like. I have been working on.

A

This like for a good part of my career, and it was you know, I worked with other organizations that.

A

Did like a new england-wide research on you know what to do about different states. Looking at bands.

A

Because that was something that the industry was really pushing back on. Just how do you come.

A

Up with just even in labeling them, but other recommendations to go on a bag of fertilizer.

A

So I mean it's huge, never, but at the same time I I don't have a problem with like.

A

Having our outreach be sort of a goal, end goal is, to you know, eliminate the use of.

A

Pesticides and fertilizers and portsmouth or yeah. How would that look? I mean when.

B

You think about other communities and maybe diana you know more about this too.

B

Is is there communities that actually ban it from being sold, or is it just the application.

C

So it depends on what state you live in. So if you live in maine you can get an ordinance.

C

In your municipality, where you can restrict uh pesticides, I think fertilizers can be restricted.

C

In states, without preemption or with preemption laws, sorry, because new hampshire has preemption.

C

Laws that mean that we can't regulate pesticide use on private property. So that's why the city.

C

Of portsmouth has a voluntary policy where they, you know, police themselves, so on city property,.

C

You use organic land care practices same thing with dover, um yeah regulate private, the public.

B

No enabling legislation for it or something not for pesticides. I think that you can for.

C

Fertilizers, you would have to double check on that. Okay, because the state does it with their wetlands.

A

Regulations right buffers, I'm guessing, but maybe only in wetlands and I think you can regulate.

C

The um sidewalk strips so you know what people call the hell strip. um uh You know in the sort.

C

Of in the right of way area on the street um that I think you can regulate, because it's in municipal.

B

Land or something um yeah, I think it means it's public um and technically belongs to the city.

C

So I think, there's like a kind of a strange gray area there. I remember reading about that.

A

We started going on down this road, I think peter, because you were like well, you know.

A

I was saying we want to know what standards to our applicants who come yeah. Can we just.

A

Formalize that so maybe we should go back to that as being our goal. It's just looking at.

A

The buffers and just adding in some of this sustainable land care language, or at least.

A

Thinking about doing some of the analyses to help us be more strategic about that.

B

I just think it's more likely to get done sooner mm-hmm, but I know I don't think there's yeah.

B

I just feel like that's what this video is for, so it makes sense to talk about that here to go much.

B

Broader than you're going to lose people or have to have a different path, and I think we can easily.

B

More easily carve out a path for this, but maybe at the end of the day, it's here's how we update.

A

Yeah there's just one left I mean so like the one that came up for me is the incentive.

A

The public incentive, whatever the incentive for setting aside property for public.

A

um Use is something that was in the paper recently um for the height of the buildings.

A

Right women so they're looking at so it just seemed like there may be things that were.

A

Missing or that when they start to think about the height of the buildings, they're sabotaging.

A

Conservation efforts where people are putting in impervious sidewalks that go down in between.

A

Two buildings so that they can make their public use incentive legitimate and we were.

A

Really struggling with that before, as in you know, okay, it's public use, but it's impervious surface.

A

And you're getting more height for it, and so so that to me it's sort of like okay, we don't want to.

A

Totally ignore what everybody's talking about, even though it has to do with other things, sure right.

A

That's just okay, all right! So if I heard diana correctly, it was the state of new hampshire does.

D

Not allow municipalities to um restrict the private citizens from doing what they want.

D

In terms of pesticides, right, that's is that. Did I get that yeah? Yes, he did so that's why it's only.

D

On both so okay, all right, I just want to make sure, but if they hire somebody that person has to be.

A

At least um register or license yes, oh, uh this is what that was my question. What about commercial.

D

Does do commercial properties count that that counts, and it's not just residents right? It would.

D

Be like anything that counts as private property right any corporation, or anything like that. Okay,.

B

But the question is still there about the what what were numbers, because the statement regulates.

B

It from wetlands and we do too cartilage and pesticides. We don't allow pesticides in the body.

B

It's in our ordinance, that's beside of heroin, so I don't know how we do that by what authority.

B

Or maybe we're just outside of our authorities, no one's called us on it. I think it's that you can't.

C

Do anything that's more strict than the state laws? So if it's the same as the state laws, then.

B

That is the case, I believe expanded. It's just bumpers, oh buffers right.

B

But the state has been bumpers in some areas, such as tidal and prime wetlands and fertile pools.

A

I've been asked about that problem, yeah.

A

Well, I think another option item that came.

C

That is the third item on our agenda. Okay, sorry, I didn't need it, but look at that. Yeah.

A

At least that will be like a stepping stone if we decide to adopt nofa.

A

In the ordinance, so at least they can start getting used to what these are.

A

So that's probably not from many many, so thank you.

A

Very diane much you're here. Why don't we have you um sort of present what you have done.

A

On the outreach part of it, I guess because uh ted mentioned website work and you are um well. I had a.

C

Meeting with um your I.t director, alan brady, I don't know it's, uh I know he's the I.t.

C

Guy but that's not a very formal title, um but he and I had a uh good conversation just.

C

um Discussing oh, um I want to be able to share screen, so I can show you what I drew up.

B

I think you have to go to heard more on the three dots up there.

D

Did that work, for you did yes,.

C

So we talked about what it would look like uh on the website and um he suggested he mentioned.

C

The stormwater page- and we talked about the think blue program and we figured it would be.

C

You know for the website layout. It would be something similar to this.

C

We also thought that think green might be a nice name, um catchy short name for it uh being the land.

C

Portion of uh this sort of thing a complimentary um program, um so I talked to our water, the person.

B

Who did this think blue brian gets the person about it? He's he's a little concerned about that.

B

um Because of the thought of water, quality and green aren't really great things that go together.

B

So think, green from a from a green overall sustainability standpoint is one thing but green.

B

Water means eutrophication really right we're talking about green land, so I know he and I did.

C

Discuss that on the phone- and I mentioned too- I wanted to bring it up to him. um You know just.

C

To see if it was cool, it's just uh it's, you know all of it is draft. So it's all up for discussion.

C

um But I thought it would be um complimentary. um That was what we came up with because it's short.

C

So um here's the web copy um I've built a couple of websites, so I just put this together and this.

C

Is what it would look like? um A nice quote from doug talamy, and you know explaining how it's time.

C

To look at our landscapes differently, a little explanation for that: a link to the standards.

C

For organic land care and then the informational resources- and you know they would arrange this.

C

Obviously, nicely on the website the way that it is here um I also talked to lorelei, who is with.

C

Students for sustainability- I think it is- um and the students had um a contest for the mascot. So I.

C

Thought maybe we could have a mascot for the land care portion and they were very interested in.

C

You know doing something like that, so would it be like a contest, kind of thing or yeah? I mean.

C

It would be up to the students how they wanted to do that, probably similar to the way they did.

C

The fish logo, which is very cute, and so we could have something similar to that.

A

That would be great so for the informational resources for homeowners, um it's sort of like.

C

The diy resources for homeowners and links to help them find organic professionals.

C

So we would have a web page or pdf of the diy resources, a link.

C

To search for aolcp's, which is accredited organic land care professionals and then.

C

What to look for when hiring hiring an organic landscaper, so I actually have.

C

These linked here in this, and I can send this draft to anyone who wants to take a look at it.

C

That would be great. We don't have a big screen here, so that would be awesome. Everybody can see it.

C

And this is the draft that I had um and we have permission to use the materials from connecticut.

C

Nofa I spoke to their executive director, jeremy and there's a really great book and you can get it.

C

For free online, so we can actually upload a copy of it and have it on the website readily available.

C

To anyone- and I own a copy myself- it's on my bookshelf- it's called introduction to organic.

C

Lawns and yards by sarah little um and it's it's fantastic. It's like a a small uh small little book.

C

But it covers a lot of different topics um and it's very much compatible. Obviously with.

C

uh Organic land care standards, but that is written for professionals.

C

Whereas this is written for homeowners, so it's really simple and easy to understand.

C

So there's going to be your two different kinds of homeowner and.

C

There's going to be the ones that are going to do it themselves and there's going to be the ones that have to hire somebody. So we have to provide the resources for both.

C

So we're able to use some of you know directly copy some of the information from that book.

C

And put it on the website, but then people can then download that book for free.

C

I've also discussed with jeremy getting hard copies like we could get some grant money to.

C

Have those printed up and he wants to have some printed up and we've discussed, having a live.

C

Training for the organic land care accreditation program because it's never been they've, never.

C

Done one in new hampshire, it's they've had one in maine and that was very well attended.

C

So they'd like to make it a yearly thing to do new hampshire, because we're going to need.

C

Professionals to be able to do the services for the homeowners, because we really have a.

C

Huge demand here on the seacoast, but we have a complete lack of professionals to do the work.

B

So the accreditation program is to accreditate professional landscapers to be organic. Certified.

B

Or some sort of certification- yes, they would be accredited. um So uh that's the aolcp. That's.

C

What that stands for- and you know they take the course- and they take a test and um it's something.

C

That you need to keep up with, and um there is you know they. Some people will periodically be audited.

C

um Just to make sure that they're doing what they say and- and there is accountability if you.

C

You know you just go and take the course and then you're, just green, washing your business and.

C

Pretending to be organic, but using synthetics, um you know you they will remove your accreditation.

C

From you well, I had a question about that so like if you are trained in green building, and you have.

B

Like a leed certification, but your client doesn't want to build a lead building, you're still going.

B

To be their architect and you're not going to lose your lead accreditation but you're, saying.

B

That, if you're accredited in this aolcp, then you are making a commitment that you'll only do that.

B

Methodology, no, so you can have a split business, so you can do organic services for a client.

C

And it's all spelled out in the standards it's actually in the beginning of it. If you look at the.

C

Standards and they give you all the details, but it we completely understand that um you know not.

C

Everyone some people have um and there's nothing wrong with doing it. That way, if you want to.

C

But not everybody has the ability to flip their entire business to an organic model. If.

C

It's something they've never done before, so they offer organic services and they offer conventional.

C

Services at the same time, and that's okay, but there's rules around that and how you can do it.

C

You have to be up front with your client and make sure that you tell them when you're using organic.

C

And if you're doing a rescue treatment, you have to use a synthetic something like that. So you're.

B

Clear as long as you're clear about it, then you you're, okay, with the accreditation you're, saying.

B

That you just don't want people out there green washing or they don't want people out there right.

C

They have to be up front and transparent about what they're, using what's organic and what's not.

C

Organic and what services people are getting that sort of thing yeah. So if the um you said, there's a.

D

Demand from customers that they want organic and but there aren't enough people, actually you know.

D

Landscapers doing that or whatever lawn care people um professionals um do you know if.

D

There's um any like: is there a desire among the the companies to learn this stuff and provide this.

D

I mean if it's in demand, then they would probably want to supply this to the.

D

To customers, but is why aren't they doing it already? Is it just because accreditation.

D

Like it's not easy in in new hampshire, or do you have any info on that? Well, they're, human.

C

And like all humans, they don't like to change. um I think the predominant attitude is that.

C

You know organic doesn't work it's too expensive. There's a lot of myths uh that people.

C

Have in their heads about it because it's you know, it's come a long way.

C

uh Over many years, because there's a misconception that organic is a product swap so that you.

C

Instead of using you know the synthetic chemicals on a schedule uh and the synthetic fertilizers.

C

You use the natural ones and you swap those out and then you just do the same schedule.

C

Like they do in a conventional program, but it's a different way of thinking and so.

C

Some people, like I said, are resistant to change and don't necessarily want to do that. I think.

C

I think with the right motivation, um anyone can learn, you don't have to be a genius or have a.

C

Doctorate or anything like that, so there's a motivational aspect to this whole wyatt. It's.

D

There's some yeah why it's not happening already kind of thing. It's it. I mean yeah. You got to.

D

Work in you got to change some lines and stuff like that. So, okay, I just was wondering where.

D

This snags were sort of in the process, so okay is the accreditation only for professionals or.

B

Can homeowners do it too? um Homeowners can do it too, it's not necessary, but they get absolutely.

C

Can take the course it's a lot of fun. I've audited it probably. I can't even count now how many times.

B

Yeah, I would think people would be interested or unless there's a homeowner's version.

C

um Nofa connecticut does do a lot of um like online courses or in-person courses.

C

um I just took one last night on permaculture with native plants.

C

And they do they do homeowner oriented uh lawn care that sort of thing actually, the la.

C

um There is one coming up by the company: they are just a distributor called pjc, organic and.

C

They have dover's contract and do the you know the turf services for them, so the athletic.

C

Fields and the lawns and they're located in rowley massachusetts, so they come out here for that and.

C

They're gonna be doing a presentation through norfolk connecticut um in I think.

C

December and there's no nofa new hampshire, so there is, but it is connecticut nofa that.

C

um Organizes and manages the organic land care program. Okay, so nova, new hampshire does farming.

D

Got it, whereas connecticut does both.

A

C

But obviously they support organic land care as well. Yeah.

A

So you're working on this website, just out of the goodness of your generosity, of your whatever.

A

Your interest in this is that yeah, I'm just volunteering my time, okay and um is there so there.

B

I didn't catch how you said dovers what what's happening in dover, but is this on their website.

B

Now this some version of this um I we've not dover- has not put together a public education.

C

Campaign necessarily, I know they've worked on a few things um and I've been in meetings that.

C

It's been discussed, they did host uh chip osborne, who is one of the authors of the nofa standards in.

C

The city of portsmouth has worked with him, he's very well known, and he came to dover and did a.

C

Homeowner presentation- and that was recorded and the city shares that on their website.

C

And you know: they'll share it on social media. At the you know, in the springtime usually.

C

um So I I think that they have other plans in mind. We have um gretchen young, who was, I.

C

Can't remember her title now but she's. I think our environmental projects manager.

C

And so she uh you know she was working on some things and getting together, informational.

C

Materials to share in our dover download that's the email that goes out every friday.

B

And you said: dover's adopted organic land management for the city.

B

Operations, but not necessarily adopted it in their regulations for homeowners.

C

Right because they can't um yes, the state of new hampshire has the preemption laws so.

C

They're unable to regulate pesticides on private property, but they have a city policy, um so their.

C

Policy, they passed a resolution in 2018 and then it took a little while uh to get transitioned. But.

C

In 2020 um they started all of their curbside weed control and all of the um turf services.

C

So the athletics fields and the lawns that the city manages they're all managed organically.

A

They're still using the steamer, um they still have it yep. They tried that out what they did was they.

C

Bought the small steamer and then they tried to um put it on a vehicle, so they could drive it.

C

Along the curb lines to kill the weeds, so it worked, but it took too many man hours.

C

So they got behind with it, they do hire a vendor now and they still, I know they still use the steam.

C

Leader and you can use it for other things as well, because we have a lot of brick sidewalks.

C

So it's good for that and just other general areas that need weeding, but for the curbside we control.

C

They have a vendor, I think it's municipal, pest management and they're doing a sweep.

C

Program and um I have details up on my website and I could send that as well later, but um that.

C

Is using an organic herbicide called vinyl sand, but they're also incorporating um you know, sealing.

C

Of cracks and the cleaning of the the curb lines and the crevices and things so it's like a whole.

C

um Comprehensive approach that they're doing and it's going well, that's that's the report back.

A

Okay, so we have other questions.

A

Not right now, so I know you can't really see it. So is it possible for you to if she sends it to you.

A

One of you guys yeah, we can set it up. Could you send it out to everybody? It's not like a quorum.

B

uh No it'll be meeting notes, okay and that will be in there and the.

A

Meeting was yeah for a link meeting was published and so yeah we're good.

B

Just don't you know, write back and say: let's change this right. So if you want, how do you.

A

Want us to do this, do you want us to review it and then give you feedback individually or come to the.

A

Next meeting, which will be public next uh one of these subcommittee meetings and talk about it more.

A

Or whatever you think would be the most uh convenient and streamlined.

B

Yeah, I think the committee should talk about it and see what they want to do and make a.

B

Recommendation to the whole commission problem: okay, so maybe at the next meeting, we're ready, yeah.

A

Or our next meeting here, yes yeah after we have a chance to review it yeah, and then we all discuss.

A

Comments with diana and or just yeah ourselves, it seems like we'll have enough to review that and.

B

Then we can talk about what we like and don't like, and what we want to do with it, and all that yeah.

A

Okay, and is there a place for this to live already on the fourth month? I don't think.

B

So, no, I think, that's what we'd have to talk about where what we want to do, what we can do.

B

I mean you know if we can put something on the first level, we have to figure out how we're.

B

Going to put it there, it sounds like we have to be careful about how we put it there. If we can't.

B

Restrict people so we would be like advisory and how would we coach that and would it fit.

B

Through public works and what they do to me, it seems like it seems, like a logical connection to.

B

The fact the city does organic land care, here's what you can do at your home kind of thing, maybe.

B

It works there, but it could be the conservation permission page where they want to do it. As you.

B

Know or it could be both, I would say, because I, if I were thinking lawn care, I wouldn't go to public.

D

Works in, in my own mind- oh just that's not I! I don't think I go to the company either, but yeah.

D

I don't think so either. So I don't know what their view is. Just a broader link on the city website of.

D

You know just one little link or something that that guides it to wherever it's going to I mean.

D

The more links the better uh on different pages- I think, but anyway, that's just my two cents, because.

D

It's the city website I find is sometimes um not very delusional. If that's a word, I don't know.

D

um Sometimes I feel that I'm jesus, how many, how many, how deep do I have to go just to you, know.

D

Like find the agenda for one of our meetings, sometimes that's not necessarily the best.

D

Example, but I know I've done some just trying to find things. Yeah there's a lot on there so and.

B

If you want to get this money out in the public search tool, that's what I find if you want to find.

B

Something yeah- and I do but yeah, but just the the general um resident in portsmouth would be nice.

D

I don't know whatever, so it's partly you know any kind of outreach. We do point people to that right.

A

Whether it's social media stuff or whether it's right right, I'm just yeah, yeah, yeah and.

A

That I mean that makes me think of too that it's sort of like this should be not just a stand-alone.

A

Thing, like you say, any kind of outreach you should have it all packaged together and like that bit.

A

With the heist with working with the high school sustainability, you know do press around that yeah.

A

Have to kick off the that's yeah, that's the kind of thing I was talking about, yeah without being.

D

Sorry not very specific or not very good, yeah yeah, so we have to kind of so.

A

Diane is that, okay? Are you feeling like you're up for us, looking at it and getting back to you and.

A

Maybe having you at the next meeting and part of this whole planning process, do you have time yeah.

A

That's fine. I have no objections. Okay, great, it's a great resource to have somebody. Do this yeah.

C

Thank you, you're welcome. I do it all the time yeah. I think I've heard about you doing similar things.

A

Like this, so thank you for adopting us as well yeah, so and thanks for um hanging in there through.

D

The beginning of our meeting, where it wasn't necessarily your you know what you were here to.

D

Talk about, but it was nice to have your feedback during some of those other issues. So thank you.

D

Thank you no problem, um so uh am I all set. Do you need me to stay? Not unless you want to okay, so.

C

I guess I'll follow up by sending the links to the drafts that I came up with, and I think there.

C

Was oh and the the sweep program, so those are the things I'll send: yeah, okay, great yeah! You.

B

Can send it to me or kate or both of us if you have our emails? Okay, thank you! So we'll let you.

A

Know when the next meeting is all right, perfect thanks so much okay! Thank you. Thank you. Bye-Bye.

A

So, okay, so that's really good.

A

um Yeah, thank you yeah, okay, so I went through and just.

A

Quickly put in the state standards, the city standards, at least the like oak, broad ones, for the.

A

Popular and just fertilizer stuff, pesticide stuff and then the nova.

A

Standards just to sort of highlight the big things and how it becomes more restrictive. As.

A

You kind of go from state to norfolk. I don't know if this is something you can either.

A

Add more information to it's kind of heavy already on the information, but I was thinking.

A

This could be good, maybe if we just put it on the table as you're walking into the actual.

A

Cheaper commerce or whatever that room is downstairs, city, chamber, city, chamber.

D

um On the table, where the agendas are every time we have a meeting or.

A

If we can hand it out to anybody who would say should have no stipulations yeah, we also.

B

Got to get we haven't talked to anybody above us about it right so they're going to get permission.

A

Clearance on what we're doing this is just the draft. So if anybody has anything, but it is.

B

Yeah and one of the things that we're um putting in our grant application to remap the wetlands is.

B

To send out do out do an outreach like a meeting.

B

Talk about wetlands and and um because there's a big, they want outreach in the.

B

Grant application, but we would want to do that and we thought we could send that.

B

Information out to people that live in the wetland buffer, at least so I don't know if this.

B

Would go with that, but um potentially it could be something like that. Oh my gosh yeah, it's cool.

B

Yeah, I think we've done that twice, but it's been for you and foreign.

B

But it's yeah to say that something like that: it's a couple thousand dollars. I think so. You.

B

Know it's not yeah, I think so. I think that sort of ended up, but we had some great money. So that's.

A

Awesome so can we kind of do the same thing? Okay, we'll.

A

You want to send it out to yeah, I can send out the virtual version and we can.

A

Just kind of football what's wrong with it or if you guys want to add anything.

A

All right so good question, sorry for you guys, um because you've talked about like we're only.

D

Supposed to deal with wetland buffers like that's what we're seeing and yet it says here.

D

And it says on the website, it's like um it is charged with by statute with the protection and.

D

Proper utilization of the natural resources of the city to me, that is much more than wetlands, so I'm.

D

Confused as to why we are restricted in ways, and yet it says that we're. Actually I mean, why do we.

D

Have a limited focus on just the the what the 100 foot button, not the 250 or whatever else.

D

I mean because it's all I mean, but we have coordinates that says what you can do, 100 on.

B

Butler, we have a permit process that includes the efficiency. So that's why right I got that and and.

B

Because that burner process is pretty busy, that's what the commission ends up, focusing its time on.

B

If we even have many permits, we've probably spent a lot more time. Looking at conservation, land open.

B

Space protection, okay, so it's not that we're not allowed to or that we we're being prohibited.

D

Okay, because sometimes when I said something you'll you'll say: oh that's out of control.

B

Yeah but yeah you can't tell people they can't do something if it's not in your ordinance. So.

B

That's important to remember right, no, I got so you can. You can say we want to protect that area, but.

B

You can't stop someone from doing something that isn't regulated right. No, and I got that, but we can.

D

Concern for things that are outside the you know and express and and then maybe um yeah okay.

A

Very just not so much to the applicant necessarily without justification. Right yeah, I mean it kind.

B

Of singles people out, if they're there for a wetland permit and you're telling them what.

B

They can do on the rest of their property. There's the rest of the city that has similar situations.

B

And you're just singling them out right. So that's probably why it comes up as oh yeah.

D

Well, I'm thinking more of like city policy things, but now, but now I know that the new hampshire.

D

And I laughed because it's no surprise the live, free or die state is like yeah. Anything.

D

Goes is and we can trash everything as long as I'm keeping my liberties. So uh but that's just that's.

D

Just a bone, I have to pick with new hampshire. Well, that's like that's the bill abroad, but.

B

Well, it's sort of like my liberties are protected, but your liberties are not because what I'm doing.

D

Is polluting your land, but it doesn't seem to matter because I can pollute my own land.

D

And I'm going to live by that sort. You know what I mean whether it's light pollution noise.

D

Pollution, whatever I don't know anyway, I think new hampshire goes a little crazy on that. I'm.

D

I'm taking it to an extreme because I feel new hampshire takes it to an extreme, not maybe in.

D

Well, somewhat legally in every state, but also every state has regulations, they're all different.

B

Right and some states have very few essentials right and questions, but it's the mentality behind.

D

Torture, that's the threat. It's compared to that. Oh yeah. You look at the room like.

D

No, I was pretty good for portsmouth my dad used to call ford's mother city-state because it was.

D

Sort of had a different philosophy than a lot of the rest of the state, which you know you know.

D

Anyway, okay, so keep everybody.

A

I recently learned how to use a brochure template.

A

Gee, it could be a while to figure out how to print, though, but yeah I like the photo of the prisca.

A

Park on the front, that's great yeah, I was gonna say that's a that's a good idea, because there's.

A

Something more wet on phones, but there's much the city. It's taking pictures of that. I could use.

D

Because if people want formal gardens- and they don't want something that you know.

D

Like some anyway, it's proof that you can do a formal garden with organic lawn care, whereas a.

D

Lot of people, if they're doing more native planting and lower you know like no lawns.

D

Then they think oh, it's just going to be messy, um but this I think that's a good illustration.

D

That you can have something formal and still look good, that's clearly, a buffer.

D

Positive right there.

A

Yeah so nicely done, okay, so for next steps for the grant that we need to do anything.

A

No we'll just appear more timely. The proper thing is it's february.

B

It's not a problem or just prep.

A

You know expectations or whatever the type of goals. um Yeah, that's great, that they're doing this.

B

I that was a thing when I started I worked. I was a chairman of the advisory committee for a while.

B

And they had grants that they would give up and then they stopped- and I part of it, was.

B

Budget experience and partners in here too many people or something I don't know what it was, but.

B

It was always like: why aren't you giving grants musicality? So that's where you're going to get.

B

Stuff done give them money, they don't have any money yeah and so, rather than you know,.

A

You're getting you know, yes, infrastructure.

B

Is uh is she's not the who's? The head of.

A