City of Portsmouth, New Hampshire Public Works, 20 Apr 2022

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From YouTube: 4.20.2022 Maple Haven Neighborhood Sidewalks Project Meeting

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4.20.2022 Maple Haven Neighborhood Sidewalks Project Meeting

A

Okay, guys we're gonna start the meeting.

B

Hi good evening, just you know we're recording the meeting.

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And people at home can't see you through this uh camera. So just so, you know yeah good evening.

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Hi, um we have five folks here from the public works department tonight to uh to give you a.

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Brief presentation on what we're planning for the sidewalk project for uh hopefully this year.

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We'll want to start off just saying that the way that these projects get started is the capital.

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Improvement plan so years ago now members of the neighborhood went on to the capital improvement.

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Plan pages uh similar submitted applications to get funded and the city council funded these.

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This project, so that's how we ended up. So this is a this is a basically the fruit of.

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Labor that happened a couple of years ago, and now the the sidewalks have been funded for.

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This neighborhood and a couple others so we're going out to bed, hopefully.

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In about a month to start um doing, sidewalks in all three neighborhoods so tonight, I'd like to.

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Just introduce who's here. um My name is dave duposis, I'm the project manager for the city.

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Construction projects uh to my immediate right is peter rice he's the director of public works.

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To my left is eric: eby he's our traffic engineer over there on that table over there. The.

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Gentleman, that's closest to you is mark batchelder he's our engineer.

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And to his right is tyler reese he's our young associate he's been helping us with this project.

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And trying to put all the pieces together and he's been doing a good job, so this is.

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His first full year, so we're going gonna start going through the powerpoint presentation and.

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And uh it's pretty linear it'll take probably five ten minutes and then.

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We'll go and we'll answer your questions. If you have questions beyond what's in the powerpoint.

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So just reminding everybody to you know before you leave if you haven't already please sign in.

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So we have your email addresses. There are sign off sheets over here on this side of the room.

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Also, if you want to look at the the preliminary plan, set uh the plans on that table over there.

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Are the area around susanne drive and the plans on this table over here behind eric.

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Is winchester street, so there's south on that side north on that side, okay,.

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Yeah, this is being recorded, so the whole presentation will get uploaded.

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So uh first slide: this is the existing sidewalk system. That's out there.

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As you know, maple haven was built back and I think it was in the 50s right now yep. So the sidewalk.

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Standard at the time was a two and a half foot wide asphalt. Sidewalk panaway has the same.

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Sidewalk system they're, basically, paths that are generally wide enough to walk around by.

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Yourself, but not wide enough to walk on with a carriage or with anybody else, so.

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um The south side of maple haven pretty much the same thing except for the latino drive.

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Because nintendo drive was added much later, it was out in 2000. I believe it was the year.

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And and they meet the current city sidewalk standard, which is the five feet of concrete.

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uh So, looking at the general cross section of the road.

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um Generally speaking, the sidewalks are out there, as I said at two and a half feet wide.

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You have an eight foot grass strip where the poles generally live and the roadway is generally 24.

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24 feet wide in some of the corners it's a little wider, but generally it's 24 feet wide.

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And here's a slide showing the terminal condition of the sidewalks.

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And they are pretty much at this point unusable. Hence the capital improvement project.

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So the proposed upgrades um so we're planning on doing targeted areas. First,.

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uh To leave what we see is the immediate problem areas.

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Which are in general areas around ocean road and the area between ocean road and.

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Putnam's, where there's a lot of uh cut through traffic- and we have.

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We have slides since the first meeting we went out and did a bunch of car counts, but did a bunch of.

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Work- and I can show you all that stuff tonight, so the sidewalks will be generally five and a half.

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Feet uh we'll make them ada compliant so they're all up to up to snuff for wheelchairs and members.

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Of the handicapped population and they will be concrete, which is our current city standard,.

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So considerations for the proposed sidewalk layout um really has to do with uh safe prices, ocean road.

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So we know that there's a lot of pedestrian charge between the two neighborhoods people go out and.

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Walk at night and the good weather we we know that to happen. I myself used to walk out there.

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And there's just lots of cross traffic across the road. We want to incorporate some traffic.

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Calming in areas of concern, so a lot of the concerns that we had at the first public meeting.

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Which was three weeks ago was uh had to do with cut through traffic.

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um Speeding on the area between ocean and lafayette, speeding on winchester street.

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um So we think we've come up with a plan to kind of moderate that kind of behavior that's going on.

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um And connection to the future multi-use path, a lot of people that.

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In the first meeting- and I think I see a lot of the same faces, but I see some new faces.

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So the city has been actively pursuing. Dots is working on a plan to redo route, one so.

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Dot works in geologic time a lot of times so a lot of times their plans.

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You know they become an idea and then they get funded and then they sit in a 10-year plan.

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And get moved around when things happen, bridges have to be built, funds move around.

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um But we've been working with d.o.t, we have multi-use paths that were incorporated.

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In the capital improvement plan, so those are those are to be funded when dot does the road.

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That will provide a multi-use path, hopefully up and down both sides of lafayette road.

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So that people that live out here can walk and bike safely to other areas of the city.

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So part of the what you're going to see tonight is connection on the side.

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Of platinums to connect the sidewalk system to where, eventually there will be a multi-use trail.

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So again into the march 23rd meeting that we had, there was generally a lack of consensus on what.

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Side of the street to place sidewalks, which led to a little floundering on our part. Because we heard.

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Quite a few people say: well, we want sidewalks, but we want it on the other side of the street.

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So we floundered a little bit with that in the last couple of weeks, but I think we've.

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Recent consensus uh and uh we heard about the company traffic.

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uh We heard a lot of support about the ocean road crossing and we also heard um that a lot of.

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People would be desirous of putting sidewalks down ocean road to connect down the banfield, to connect.

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To the sidewalk put on banfield to connect to the bike trail that eventually will lead all the way.

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Into downtown that we'll be building and that's a separate project, but that's the old railroad.

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Bed, so as projects as we move through time, you can see that there are multiple projects happening. All.

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Around you, at the same time as we're trying to trying to build up your sidewalk system as well.

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So the data collection that we started the day after the meeting so march 24th went out there.

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And we started putting speed data collectors up and a lot of those were stealth collectors, so.

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That people didn't know they're up um that way. We get honest results and we looked at the pedestrian.

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Crossings, ocean road and we uh identified the stop sign uh war analysis. We had um one gentleman that.

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Wanted to see if we could put stop signs at the intersection of uh winchester and.

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Winchester, so we looked at that and we looked at how much cutting traffic there was based on.

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You know so we have the cameras up for about a week and collected a bunch of data.

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So this is uh suzanne drive. This is the area between putnams or habibi and ocean road.

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So the red line is 20 miles an hour. That's the speed limit out there. That's what it's marked at.

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And you can actually see that most of the cars are actually going under the speed limit.

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Or at the speed limit, and although there is some overflow traffic.

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Probably eighty percent of the cars doing the speed limit are below so that's good.

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um But we heard about the cartoon traffic so on this slide, we're looking at.

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And eric can explain this a little better than I can, but uh at certain times of the day, almost 50.

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Percent of the traffic going through there is cut through track. They're, not big numbers eric.

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But they're but they're, substantial they're, you know half the traffic is coming through even.

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Though we're only looking at 20 cars 30 cars an hour, but half of those cars are cut through cars.

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This slide is winchester street, so this is the area between ocean road.

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And winchester street and that's that area is also signed for 20 miles an hour.

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And you can see in this slide more dramatically.

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Cars are going faster than the speed limit. In fact, more than 50 of the cars are going faster.

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So we also looked at the stop sign warrant analysis, so.

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When you are desirous to put in a stop sign, it has to meet certain criteria and I'm going.

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To let eric explain that, because he's much better at it eric you want to come up here.

C

Great thank you dave, um I'm eric eva the traffic engineer for the city.

C

And uh we did a traffic signal warrants. Stop sign warrants analysis at this intersection.

C

And generally, what you look for is to see that the volumes entering the intersection on all.

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Three legs are fairly equal in volume, or at least you know, maybe a 60 40 split.

C

But what we saw here was a much well, I think the 70 30 actually right on the.

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Number, you got 100 cars on winchester from ocean or from nathaniel 65 plus 43 is 108.

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And but you only have 30 cars coming in from mariette drive, so it's a big discrepancy so.

C

With that kind of imbalance, we would not generally support putting in the always stop at.

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This location just keep the stop on mariette drive, which is the minor road and allow the traffic on.

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uh Winchester to keep free flowing, but that doesn't address the speeds. And that's where.

C

We were getting into other measures that we could look at to address the speeding on winchester road.

C

And that was where we come up with a proposed uh speed table and that's the uh start here. Usually.

C

Okay, oh yeah, next one nope, not that one we have a star here on this map. You can see that one! That's.

C

Where they proposed uh speed table would be questions yeah. Can you just eliminate it.

A

We can't eliminate.

C

So uh this is a summary of the speeds that we saw on winchester average speed of 22.

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And 85th percentile 27., the reason we're showing 85th is usually speed. Limits are based on 85th in.

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This case, you would put the speed limit at 25, but we want to keep the speeds lower in the 20 mile, an.

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Hour range, so that's why we're looking at traffic calming measures on this roadway and that would be.

C

At the star location up here just uh before uh before winchester and the.

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Other ones, the other winchester, we would put a proposal a speed table at that location.

C

And also um we can jump ahead or you want to whatever you want. Okay, there was also the.

C

This is a close-up of that area, so coming in from ocean road here on the right on winchester.

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This would be the location of the speed table here where the star is.

C

And as well we're getting into talking about where the sidewalk would be, that's this blue strip.

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Along the north side of winchester and in order to accommodate that sidewalk you'll be shifting the.

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Curb line and uh shifting the roadway a little bit to the south on this side and what that does is.

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It actually creates sort of a zigzag here, what we call a chicane and that misaligns the road. So it's.

C

Not a straight shot from coming in from ocean road, all the way down to nathaniel and that little jog.

C

Helps to also put a little crimp on speeds as well. I mean it's not significant, but it does.

C

Help together with the speed table that we think would adequately addressed, speeds that.

C

We're seeing out here in winchester I'll go back to the previous slide.

A

Thank you, mr eevee.

A

Okay, so let's talk about the ocean road project, so we know that a lot of people are desirous across.

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Here we know that it happens a lot in the warm months when we took our little survey. It was.

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Still april it was early april, it was cold out so there weren't that many pedestrians, but we know.

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That in june july august september, there's a lot of crossing here, so we are willing to go to dlt.

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And put in a flashing beacon request with them, they have to approve it, but we think, based on.

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Engineering that they should um doesn't mean they will, but they should so. This would be.

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The same type of crossing that just got put on banfield, not too, that last fall so basically.

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You go up to the intersection. You hit the button. The flashing, the rapid flashing starts.

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Doesn't mean that protection from from cars that don't stop but at least gives you gives you as a.

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Pedestrian a lot more visibility to minimize the chance of an incident, so um we think this.

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Is a worthy endeavor, so we're willing to to do this and approach dlt for permission to do this.

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um So, back to the back to the original meeting, when we had a lot of people.

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Asking for the sidewalks to be on the other side of the street. We uh we had a resident.

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Very nicely um conduct a door to do a survey of uh both sides of maple haven. Quite a few.

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Opinions were gathered and, as you know, we did our own uh survey back in the winter time, but colleen.

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Was able to get a lot more people um to answer questions that we weren't, so that was good, so.

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The four questions she asked people were: are you in favor of sidewalks and one person was not.

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Are you more in favor of the original proposal that I showed at the march 23rd meeting and 63.

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Percent said yes uh or option three so right after the meeting we kind of swapped the sidewalk and.

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We showed it on the inside curve on the inside and we thought maybe well maybe you know maybe.

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Maybe people would like it better if it was on the inside, so we showed that.

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Just to kind of get a reaction we did um and you can see that roughly uh three and a half times.

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More people liked it than the original version so tonight we're showing back the original version.

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And then option four was minimum sidewalks. uh So basically, once we started getting frustrated.

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We started showing well, maybe we'll just do winchester street and we'll just do.

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The sidewalk over the pockets and we won't go and build a sidewalk down to the park.

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And, as you can see from the slide, didn't have a lot of favor and support of that. Even so, that's.

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Good that kind of justifies that our original idea was probably pretty close to what we should do.

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A

Here we are so the uh the yellow line that's shown on this is uh this aerial photo. Is the sidewalk.

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That we proposed to build this year, assuming that we can get a contractor again. Things are kind of.

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Crazy, but we're hopeful to get a contractor this year, the two green stars that are shown.

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Are areas that we propose to put the speed tables that are just like the ones on binfield? So what.

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That will do is, hopefully discourage people from coming through there and staying on the.

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Main road, so because we can't really put stop signs up because they're not warranted this.

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Is the next best thing that we can do to try to dissuade people? Because, as we were talking before,.

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A lot of you came in, and the city put up some signs that says no through traffic and I said.

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Jokingly, but it's true that when people see the no through traffic signs, they know that it's a way to.

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Go because you know why else would you put up that sign, so this is kind of a the next best thing that.

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We can do to try to discourage uh that kind of behavior going through the neighborhood needlessly.

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On the south side, we're still planning on doing winchester street and connecting.

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The national drive sidewalk system to ocean road which, as we told the people that were here in.

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The first meeting- that's kind of required. The d.o.t is going to make us put the sidewalks in.

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Otherwise, there's no reason to cross ocean road because there's no sidewalks.

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So they will require us to build these sidewalks and um eric already kind of showed you the slide.

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For the chicane, but that's coming up in the presentation as well, so these are the.

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Two areas of principle concern that we had because they're the area.

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The areas that have the most traffic and they're the areas that have the most chance of speeding.

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And back to the winchester slide, so here you can see the the road crossing across ocean road shown.

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In red you can show the new uh concrete sidewalk on winchester street shown in blue. You can see.

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The proposed speed table- that's just before, which is the street, with the big green star.

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uh Would be more or less there, so we have to we're so mark's still working on.

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Drainage plans and where we need to move the storm drains to make sure that the road drains properly.

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And all the other engineering stuff that we have to do, but in general.

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This is more or less what we're! What we're planning at this point.

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And of note, just for those of you who live on winchester street,.

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Because we are planning on building this more or less right away. I have expedited ambit survey to.

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Do a property survey at winchester street for the right-of-way just because there are.

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Some questions- and I think we had some questions too, on where exactly the right way was out there.

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So we just want to make sure that we don't build improvements on somebody else's property.

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So if you see ambid survey out there in the next week or two you'll know, what's going on.

A

So this is kind of we've already kind of been through that topic.

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uh Tree impact so mark how many trees 12. so we're back to the original plan. um We need.

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To go to the trees and greenery committee: next, that's going to happen in three weeks and we're.

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Going to have to ask them for permission to cut down 12 trees in maple haven, north.

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And those are shown on the next slide somewhere, so some of the trees will go around like like.

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In these photos, wherever we can but mark and I walked around the day after the meeting- I think.

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We were out there and we identified 12 trees that are definitely going to need to to go. Do we have.

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That um plan in here, not with the x okay, so the plan that shows you which trees were actually.

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The cut are on the paper, copies and they're on the table over there, so you can look at them after the.

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Meeting, if you so wish so again, suzanne drive is over there, which is the streets on this side.

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So next step, so this is the final public meeting um we'll hear your concerns, we'll open up the.

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Q, a in a few minutes and peter and I and mark and eric, can address your comments or questions.

A

uh We're gonna have to go to the trees and green commission uh and committee. Excuse me.

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And get permission to cut those trees, uh we're hoping to finalize the design mark's literally.

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Working on the specifications right there on his laptop as as I'm talking so we're desperately.

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Trying to get this out to bid in early may, so we can get something built before winter.

A

So that's where we're at um so I'm going to shut down the presentation.

A

And maximize that yeah, how do I get the screen up? You know.

A

Nope no, this is one person we can't. We can't take too much he's talking. Yeah.

A

A

Great, so um I'm gonna let alexis who's on what any questions out here won't be heard on zoom.

A

Right, so if you ask questions, I'm going to repeat it just so you know, and um but let me start with.

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The lady that's on here and then I'll take your question. Next, okay, okay, alexis! Can you.

A

Hear us yep um hi uh alexis pellegrin. I am in um 17 winchester talking, but we can't hear him. Oh god,.

D

I'm not muted. Can you hear me now.

A

D

Can you hear me now she tries to talk again.

D

Should I just write my message in the chat.

A

Type chat with maybe some questions.

A

A

The volume on that.

D

I just put it in the chat for you.

E

All right: well, let's, let's take some folks.

E

Here, okay- and we can use.

F

Yeah, okay, all right alexis! I can see it in the chat, so I'm gonna answer your question.

A

I'm gonna read it to the audience, so they can hear it hi. I lie which is obviously live.

A

On 17 winchester street, how many feet of property do you think it will take? So the answer is we're.

A

Not going to take any property, but the road may shift. The 17 is on what side of the road.

A

Okay, so up to four feet of what is now grass may become pavement.

A

Okay, so that's the answer to that question and it depends because it depends exactly where.

A

You are okay, I promise go ahead, okay, so mark. So if you bring up the slide for assignments.

E

I'm originally the second phase, yep okay great. So so we should bring up the original.

E

The second plan, the second, so my major concern is, if you go on the city website,.

E

But this is my major concern and, first of all, I'm not. I do not want sidewalks understand my personal.

E

Thinking um and I've expressed this before in the last meeting that no one's gonna use.

E

Getting very emotional here, but um that's very important to me, as as a resident for over 25.

E

Years that that's very important to me, you know, do the sidewalks from from back to fourth.

E

I think that's great. um Do I think we need sidewalks, so they believe in over there.

E

Absolutely not people walk in the sidewalks, we do foursquare, we do basketball nets.

E

um Do I think the elderly would prefer like horrible here, but um I I want. I want.

E

I want all the sidewalks looked up. I want like plantings, I want new trees. I want.

E

The old trees to be ripped up if they're rooted and to be honest with you, has changed. Yes,.

A

Yes, yes, excuse me preliminarily all right good, so he knows what trees need to be like ripped off so.

E

That that's so, if you look at this is not the original plan. If you look at the second phase, that.

E

You have proposed on the website what concerns me most and I I'm gonna pay for some of the clout.

E

Is that on the side, this is not it, so I don't know where you have the second phase. It looks.

E

Like they're gonna rip up my window, I'm gonna be honest with you, so I'm in the curve right here.

E

And it looks like the 5.5 feet of sidewalk is going into my land because you're happy. The latest.

A

Plane is on the outside, not on your side. It is on the second. If you look at the second blindfold.

E

Went in here and the sidewalk was going over here, there's a water drain right this water drain right.

E

There and a 5.5 um feet: sidewalk, listen, is not right there in this corner, sure sure and.

E

I appreciate your concerns on this we've heard. We've heard your concerns on this and we're not doing phase two right now we're doing phase one right now: okay, again.

B

We're not gonna we're not gonna just roll into phase two okay.

E

That's what bothers me! It's like! Okay, let's approve this, but we're gonna prove this like one.

E

Second phase you're saying: look sue. Where did you say second phase on the website? The city website.

B

Right here, because on the city website, it says second page and the second stop. The second phase.

E

Is this in front of my property, which, if you look at this.

A

I understand we've talked about this before I hear what you're saying right, we're saying right now,.

A

In a public forum that we're not moving forward with phase two until this public process and it'll.

E

Resources and and that's going to be a while- it's not going to be this next year.

A

Yeah there'll be a whole process. I appreciate that I didn't coming out like next week to.

E

Figure this out: why don't we? Why don't we take this offline? Because we've talked about this.

A

A lot- and we are very understanding what you're saying we're, not we're not moving forward on your.

E

Property, but no listen to me: why did you put this on on the city website when you look, if you look.

E

At that, no listen! Why? Because we made a mistake and we weren't, we weren't completely confident.

E

Because I wanted to tell you, there was my property you cut into my pocket, but that's why we would not.

C

So I I told you in our presentation that we had a couple of different.

A

We had a different version, we had a public meeting, we got feedback, we put another version up well.

A

That's because you're not listening to what we're saying, okay, so we're improving this yellow light.

G

Yes, okay, yes, okay, so I.

A

They went door-to-door on the weekend, you may or may not have been home yeah.

G

A

And again there were multiple versions online, because we were a little flattery.

A

At the last meeting, when everyone said put the sidewalk over there, we didn't know what.

A

To do so, we showed the other version to get feedback and clearly we got feedback. Yes, sir,.

G

A

Yeah, we understand that right. That's why this that's! Why we're showing this target scale of the.

A

Sidewalks, uh I don't know if five and a half, no it's a magic number for polly sidewalk factory, so.

A

That's another whole issue that I think I'm concerned that the scale of the sidewalk.

B

uh Is in fact, going to impinge uh right away uh on driveways and is going to effectively.

F

Remove dry parking space, I mean these. These sidewalks we have today, hopefully all three.

G

Are kind of technical right and people have been parking, their cars all the way to the.

G

Limit of their driveways, these are not big drivers in the world and uh we put a brand sidewalk in.

G

Including a setback from the street and potentially taking away 50 100 200.

A

Certainly, the other 50 percent are going to have.

A

Where the sidewalk that people would walk through, but typically what happens? Is people just go to.

A

That spot, where the car sticks in and they walk around the car and keep walking. So at that point.

G

I mean if that's a legal thing: you're not going to get ticketed for that no you're going to get.

G

And I don't see what you're going to be filing when you don't have a ride.

E

Typically, the sidewalks could cloud once the storm is evaded.

E

To work from the highest pedestrian activity and work our way out safely to schools, you know at.

A

The same time, and so by the time we're going to be here, you're going to be you're going to be.

A

Moving your vehicles back, not literally, but I think I mean that's not kind of like sure.

A

But we, but we also accommodate this all over the city when you go anywhere else.

B

Two and a half feet right now. I did a little survey myself today and I saw a plethora.

B

Of sidewalks about four and a half feet all over, including the famous three four and a.

B

Half years sure, why is that? Not a possibility would occur right by the right of the limit of.

A

The street to minimize the impact five and a half feet is our standard. We do it for a.

E

Reason it accommodates the sidewalk tractors so that we can effectively plow the sidewalks and.

A

It also accommodates more pedestrians that if you're walking with a jogger or kind of.

B

Type of discussion so very few pedestrians in the neighborhood. This is not downtown.

B

Five and a half feet it's just of about one size fits all. Why is that five and a half feet.

A

Is at the smallest, it's for the accommodation and sidewalk practice, so we can maintain the.

A

Sidewalks, I've never seen uh any sidewalks. We can't right now, they're, not white ones,.

A

A

A

A

Okay, so that was a that was a vote. I'm just peter I'm trying to.

A

Keep up with the microphone with people at home, so that was just.

A

The gentleman was just saying that he was in favor of the cost market costs.

A

And his sidewalk being with us: okay, next question: yes, sir yeah.

A

So I think overall, I'm appreciative of the city working.

B

Yes to the north side, we're going to feel 12 12 trees, so the neighborhood in general. You know the.

B

Trees aren't very big and we don't have a pump and the way the ranches are laid out. It's pretty wide.

B

B

So I really want you guys to consider that.

B

And I think, on the on the other side, where you got some good thought on the other side, just.

E

Sure we appreciate that, and the tree and greenery committee, which I sit on, uh takes us very.

E

Seriously and we planted over 100 trees this year, we're planning on planting 400 trees next year.

A

And you know if this neighborhood would like additional trees. You know please.

E

Let us know you would like addition, fees we're actually looking for residents if.

A

They're interested in having trees on their property um that we will be getting trees, but.

E

It is something when we, when we do projects like this, we do replant as we go through so.

A

It's not it's not a um it's, not something. We are very uh cognizant of pre-covering its importance.

B

Which would make sense to me we're talking about five and a half feet from.

B

The existing sidewalk outside the inside.

B

This property, which basically is going to leave about two foot strip between the sidewalk.

A

No, it's because that didn't include the sidewalk, so it's.

A

It's five and a half feet left, which is enough to put trees.

B

I'm saying like we're: gonna have a five and a half sidewalk.

B

And then we're gonna have right. Now is the.

A

Right so two and a half so you're gonna add three feet. So that's five feet of grassland.

A

In general, not everywhere- and I said that every everywhere is a little different.

A

But in general I think it's going to be. You know right now.

B

It never gets grass grown people park on it.

B

Again, it's going to take away that kind of people just park on the street.

B

Yeah and then it's going to leave even less space, so it's going to be more faster.

B

There's no way.

A

Go ahead. Yes, please.

F

A

Right well again: they're they're pretty much unusable in their current state, and I just I.

A

I want to take this this time to remind you that we're here, because you guys asked us to.

A

Put sidewalks in, I know you did and I know you did, but enough people asked us to come that we're here.

E

The parking lot it needs to be square, so it's not drainage. It's going in.

E

There tonight you see the drainage, whatever it's not draining from it,.

E

But like it's a mess- and I don't know who wants sidewalks but I mean I don't know, I'm just razzled.

E

By this proposal and how it went about and how everyone's speaking about our neighbors.

E

No and I I and I shouldn't fully speak, I I walked around with colony.

E

And I'm just getting emotional, and so not a lot of people are here out of 200 neighbors.

E

That are supposed to be here and that's why I ran around for five hours.

E

And it's hard because here we are talking about people that are not here like this.

A

So so so I appreciate what you're saying no, I know we're back. We have to. We have to make decisions.

E

We make decisions with city council appropriates funding and city council to save them.

E

The city council represents you all: okay and the money the moneys were incorporated. The monies.

E

Were appropriated because residents requested the money to be spent, who are those residents? This is.

E

You have a very firm opinion. I appreciate that.

E

No, I appreciate that we've done two surveys. Yes, they didn't get everybody, but both of them.

E

It's a pretty significant sample of the population and it's consistent. There wasn't like huge.

E

One did one one concluded the other another. They all had very similar conclusions.

E

So the folks that are really against sidewalks are here tonight. So that's what we that's working here.

G

So I think I think what we're proposing here is a reasonable compromise. If you do not want to do.

E

Anything other than this initial phase, one, that's what we'll do, but the current. What we've, what we.

E

Heard from the survey was that this approach of the yellow section only was acceptable. So what we.

E

Would like to do tonight is we'd like to be able to make the decision to move forward with a bid.

A

So that we can get prices, so we can move forward with us if, if you all.

A

You know feel very strongly that you don't want any of this happen. It's no skin off our back.

E

We're doing this because we're trying to provide you all services, we're not doing this, because we.

E

Want to make your life miserable we're trying to provide services that benefit the community.

E

So you know, I appreciate the passion that you bring to the table and I think we preferred.

A

You and we are not planning to steamroll you um and you need to. You, need to trust us that we're.

A

Going to work with you on this well the trees. So let's talk about the trees, so I appreciate that.

A

So right, let's see if other people have questions first, okay, let's finish.

A

You want to put it in the location.

E

In one night, I've watched these pen cards wide around that corner.

E

And the owner of that house has seen the same thing: yep, okay,.

A

But once they know the speed tables are on the next corner, you may not see them again.

E

If you're coming into the neighborhood yeah.

A

We're trying to eliminate the cut through traffic yeah we're not trying to.

E

We're not trying to punish.

G

There's a number of reasons you don't put speed tables on corners, but go ahead.

G

C

Yes, the question is: why is the proposed speed tables in the locations that we've.

C

Shown on the plans and not, why isn't there one shown on the main entrance in from lafayette.

C

Or from ocean road yeah and the reasoning was we were looking to prohibit the cut.

C

Through traffic, we weren't looking to punish everybody who drives into the neighborhood.

C

Well, I don't like driving on speed bumps. I don't. I know a lot of people don't so.

C

What I mean if the neighborhood would like one at the entrance, we could put one there as well.

A

With that, in the next case, there's a woman right here yeah, so I'm on 26th winchester.

B

um I got two young kids, so I should be like your perfect audience and I'm not innately against this.

B

Project- and maybe I was coming across, I can say I'll answer some questions. I think that survey.

B

People haven't said everybody the questions weren't, um potentially as in-depth as they.

B

Needed to be a lot of it was funny. Yes, though, are the sidewalks well, everybody's gonna say yes,.

B

You want them fully redone, I don't know so that survey, I'm not sure, was a great, I'm not sure it.

C

Was the best survey? um We certainly said that we wanted. You know every time everybody was able.

B

To cross the crosshair, I can say, having almost five-year-olds um being able to.

B

Stand for the other side by herself she's, almost old enough, but I'm not doing this.

B

That being said, I would say the family we're super users of the neighborhood we bike, I drop with the.

B

Kids in the stroller, they walk with the baby in a stroller, um I'm not doing those bags, even if.

B

There's a cycle sidewalk should be blanking on the sidewalk. I can't use a jogging stroller on it.

B

Kids, you know my kids scooter's everywhere. I can tell you how that goes. It ends up like this and.

C

It's got a lot of tears because of the bumps in the sidewalk, so it sounds like this project is.

C

Kind of going ahead and I'll be okay with that, but I'd like to mitigate maybe some answers because.

B

Living on winchester I get the history. There's the sidewalks. It's the older oldest street got that.

B

But no matter what you're doing you're narrowing the street and there's a few factors one and I had.

B

You guys out which I fully appreciate staring the map stare at the street, that chicane doesn't exist.

B

As much as it does on paper, when you stand on winchester, it's a straight shot so you're either.

B

Taking more of the right way, that is truly there now against your inside. What's your name graduate.

B

And now you're going to have kids going around what should be a sidewalk to walk around cars or.

B

Do you play they're going to end up playing dodge the car, which I think is actually more unsafe.

B

Because you're narrower in winchester, so you're either taking more people's. What's not really the.

B

Property, I get that legally, um you are limiting the the use. I can tell you right now. I got a car.

B

In front of my house- and I always put the two wheels on the dirt, because it limits that use.

B

Well now your sidewalk amount more than the street. One great example that where you took the sign.

B

Right now we'll do the meeting. Everybody is stopping with your two colors or driving around.

B

It because it's sticking out so far after me is a great example of what's going to happen. If you.

B

Have the sidewalk you put pavement to extend it on the other side, you still will have narrowed it and.

B

If everybody's just walking on the sidewalk, that's fine, but if you start you know, I understand you.

B

Get the traffic surveys all that fully appreciate that it sounds like there's good use, but I think.

B

If you pay people, you have neighbors around to say, okay, what is the actual abuse? How many kids.

B

Are on schools? How many people are in place? How many you know a family of four is not waking up.

B

And by narrowing winchester and I think the other streets you're playing dodge the cars which, as.

B

The proud owner of the four and a half year old is not safe. So if that's, what we're gonna do because.

B

Everybody wants sidewalks, that's fine, another education piece to keep her safe, but I think.

B

You're narrowing it and everybody wants to cross block that is like a pumpkin you're gonna get 100.

B

Support um if I was in charge, I would be concerned about winchester street, because the minute I mean.

B

The other day I had a picture, we had a car in front of our house, the neighbors across the.

B

Street had a car in front of their house and boy did that that narrow has been chester.

B

You know the guys that work here, that ladder truck has no problem with getting out of bed.

B

Shut the street out of this, you start piling cars, then you don't necessarily want to do bad driving.

B

So it's just there are concerns about narrowing into manchester and maybe that's.

B

The plan, because that will sort of slow people down it, will that's what that's a big.

E

Sure- and I appreciate what you're saying the traffic part of traffic coming is narrowing.

E

Roadways, it does slow powers down and it it doesn't change the fact that kids are out in the.

E

Streets, one way or the other, but at least the cars are driving slower when they're out there yeah.

A

I'm sorry: what do you have in my house.

A

No, I have not yeah your own.

B

Survey, how bad it is right! That's why we're showing the traffic plumbing.

A

Right we're trying to address your concerns by use that you stated at the last meeting.

A

That's why we're here, so anybody who hasn't had a first opportunity to speak uh want to speak. Okay.

A

A

Right here, outside all the time.

E

People I've heard my neighbors yell at people just slow down, nobody's, slowed down.

E

Over there late and they're trying to get there. Okay, that's the big issue of speed. As far as the.

A

Sidewalks go, I would say something remind you, I'm outside all the time walking the dog or whatever.

B

I have rarely seen any neighbors using the sidewalk. I just count on one hand how many.

A

People once they get to my phone a lot they come on the sidewalk I mean they're, trying to.

A

Prove a point, but I think most of it is the fact, that's in traffic sure speeding right.

E

We can also park from the dirt from the sidewalk to the streets that dirt section that's taking.

A

Parking away from everybody, because you can only sit, maybe two three part of your property you're.

A

You're you're family time or somebody else, there's no place for them to go in the winter. When they're.

E

Plowing, okay, I get dumped on because they come in off of lafayette road and they just pile it.

E

In front of my house, it narrows the street a lot. So if you start putting these sidewalks.

A

And the snow banks are going to be, you know way out the street. You can barely get one.

E

Car through as it is sometimes in the engine, but something has to be done to adjust the speed so.

A

Would you be in favor of a speed table on the main section of suzanne coming in obviously yeah.

A

And there's two houses there and then there's another house in the corner.

E

Yeah a speed pump or whatever you call it right. There.

A

E

For my property tax, that's this effective yeah! I mean. Ultimately, the money has to be raised.

E

From taxes yeah and it's kind of broken, so all this is going to improve my taxes even more.

E

Now these monies have already been appropriated, okay, exactly right, so this is not additional money.

A

I agree the trees are ruining the sidewalks and stuff that can be addressed and you can.

E

Take care of those ones. You know I'm going to use 12 trees to make it affecting that.

E

In particular that issue, but as far as having new sidewalks five and a half feet and then you've.

E

Got another few feet after that: that's pretty wide! That's nearly the stream! Well again, the.

A

Sidewalks are all in the grass strip they're, not in the payment they're, not in the payment at all.

A

I can't understand what you're saying.

A

In places yes yep, I don't know, I don't even know that, what's your address.

A

So, what's your address, what's your address 64. 64. mark? Can you answer this question? Please.

B

That's going to be the same problem.

A

A

Well, as I stated we're getting a property survey because we want to be sure, we want to make sure.

A

That we're not building anything on anybody's land mike go ahead. The speed tables, if we get.

A

They will likely be similar very similar. Yes,.

B

How often do they have to speak coming into labor and what.

A

Continuously for a week continuously 24 7., no, you didn't know about it because we didn't. We wanted.

A

We wanted, we wanted real results. If we tell people where they are, then you don't get real answers.

G

One note on that in the summary I feel like it may pick up with traffic.

G

And the bathroom right, I know that ocean road, that ocean road signal backs way up in the summertime.

A

It gets worse, we know that yeah. I understand yes,.

A

None of them are on private property they're all in the right of way.

A

And they're, all generally, if you can see the cursor up on the screen, they're all right in.

A

This corner, what about the other side that you're not doing the sidewalk? What about it.

A

So if you look at the yellow, the blue line, are you talking about the blue line now.

F

Yeah, so the area on the blue line is where the sidewalks are being removed. Right, yep,.

A

They're not being assessed because they're generally they're maples.

A

They they're a lot of them. Are norway maples they're? Almost weeds are categorized as wheat.

A

They're invasive species yeah. So just to answer the question.

E

Yeah, the arborist does check the trees. Okay, they do they do risk assessments.

E

Yup that doesn't necessarily mean they're unhealthy right, okay right so the one my.

E

Tree on my property right on the sidewalk, so when that sidewalk gets redone that treatment.

A

If we're removing sidewalk, we will do the best we can to protect the root system of the trees right.

A

Mike did you have a question.

A

But I can't hear the people that are talking they have to. They have to go into the chat.

A

I can't hear them.

A

The periwinkle do you have a question? No, we answered your question. Okay, good, are you.

A

A

A little shorter, yes, absolutely.

A

Is your house up on the screen section.

A

So you're this house.

A

Yeah, so what was the answer on that? One.

A

A

In some places, though, uh we are like we talked about earlier, we're shifting that so.

F

In fact, the sidewalk might even be starting towards the back of the existing pavement.

A

It's very absolutely, as this slide shows.

A

In the city right away, yes, ma'am I'd like to see the sidewalks on that. I do have one question on.

A

Yes, that's a common thing. We do that all the time.

A

In the back, did you have a question? I thought you had your right. You end up originally I'm sorry. I.

A

Don't I don't mean to draw your draw attention to you? I just thought I saw your hand up so I.

A

Okay, okay, so still, okay, if you're putting in a speed, bump you're moving and playing next to.

A

We will make sure that the road is drained properly. Yes, yep.

A

Okay, is there anybody in the chat, there's a chat.

F

A

um Okay, yeah, so we've actually seen this. uh This plan sounds great and people want zoom too. I want.

A

The sidewalks yeah and I'm sorry about the people there on zoom. Just I will apologize. This room does.

A

Not have great acoustics and is not really set up for zoom, so I know that um hearing has been.

A

Challenging but trying to move the microphone up when people are speaking, so you can hear.

A

Them as best you can, but I just apologize, and I can't paraphrase everything that everybody says.

A

One more chat, two more chats, okay. Well, I have to move my mailbox yourself. No.

A

If your mailbox has to move, the contractor will take care of it.

A

They'll they'll put it in the green strip between the sidewalk and the roof. Yes, yep. One thing I.

A

Want to ask, are we still doing road crosswalks, or so that was taken out for entrance of route.

G

There are schematic schematic crosses that were shown not intentionally shown to be actually.

A

Painted crosswalks, okay, um I don't think we have to have a certain number of crossings an hour.

A

To actually look at crosstalk um second thing- um and I know you talked about this first.

G

Meeting this is part of a bigger plan as far as a multi-use walkway or whatever you use that.

G

I think some people are maybe not taking that with part of this and understanding that it's.

G

A bigger purpose to not just our neighborhood, I'm not saying our neighbors are important, but.

G

It's also part of the whole bigger plan as far as the city and yeah. So I don't know.

D

Yeah, let me explain that a little bit more. I have.

A

I know I've already said it once, but you know we're planning on doing a multi-use trails.

A

You know down the road railroad bed, we're trying to plan on doing them up and down route. One.

A

When the state redoes the road you know, and if you want sidewalks on ocean road.

A

You need to you need to go to the cip form, which is on the planning department website.

A

And you need to fill out the form once a year. We gather in all those forms we go through them.

A

And and then the planning board picks projects to fund and the city council.

A

Funds, the projects and that's why we're here is because somebody wanted sidewalks so we're here.

A

I'm not sure the city would be in detroit, but the driver would definitely be.

A

The sidewalks covered original. We understand that.

A

Well, the reason we the reason we asked that is because the last time we came in to do sidewalks.

E

You get this a very vocal group that came out saying no sideways from the sidewalks.

A

So we backed off for a while and then that's why that didn't get that didn't get pursued, um but.

E

It's been reinforced since then that the expectations that we're going to do sidewalks here.

A

So um you know we're trying to we're trying to fill what people are asking for. We understand, there's a balance um and they're the.

E

The city conducted a master plan for for bicycle and pedestrian because they are modes of modes of.

E

Transportation, people and areas like maple haven are kind of isolated from the rest of town in.

E

Terms of being able to get to and from um safely by bicycles uh and pedestrians, I know walter.

A

You walk up and down the street uh all the time and you acknowledge that it's challenging.

G

It's dangerous really.

E

So the intent is to create a network where people can have.

E

Safe access throughout the city, if they want to ride their bikes to get downtown, they can.

A

Do it in a safe manner if they want to walk to other areas of town, they can get this safe.

E

You know and that's something that it's going to take time to build out. um You know it's this.

A

But it's it's! It's a it's something that builds community and helps improve safety. So you know.

A

We feel good about doing this. You know we hope at the end of the day, you all are going to appreciate.

E

uh What's done at the end, and there is you know, construction is always disruptive and change is.

E

Always difficult, uh but at the end of the day um I think we have a reasonable compromise in terms of.

A

How we're moving forward so we have our question from phil in the chat, says: isn't ocean road under.

A

D.O.T responsibility hence needing to buy in for their process, so I covered that bill early in.

A

The presentation ocean road is definitely under d.o.t responsibility, so we said we would apply.

A

For the crossing, we thought that they would approve it, but it's not a guarantee.

F

A

What the slides.

A

A

Okay, so phil goes right. I meant in terms of cip for sidewalks and ocean. So yes, yes, but we cannot.

A

Ask d.o.t to put sidewalks first of all, the city would have to build them.

A

And we can't do that without funding, so it needs to be in the cip. Then we would approach dlt and.

A

Ask them if we could, then we would go through engineering to see if we could actually build them.

A

B

um With the previous, like city planners.

B

This trail that we have is one of the biggest resources that associate our neighborhood has.

B

Potential to develop, um I get concerned when I hear things like sidewalk television.

B

Like the ocean is too small, I fight when I used to play in the hospital every day as.

B

An adult right now that I can get spicy and I've like many many facial streets.

B

um If you're gonna play some sidewalks from our neighborhood, the ocean down ocean.

B

To that trail, you are not helping. Cyclists cyclists legally cannot be on the sidewalk.

D

The biggest music.

E

When david said sidewalks on us, we really made.

B

Are really going to now have.

B

I'm an avid cyclist. I I ride. You know thousands of miles a year.

E

I and I know what you're saying I ride ocean road periodically. It's.

E

Not my preferred route, I would like to typically I don't like banfield. It's not a great price.

A

Ride, however, the rail trail is going to be a huge asset and how do you get there so there's.

E

A couple potential options that have to be explored well heritage can be a good way to.

E

Get there, but there is potential to you know from the park there is, there is land that gets through.

E

There this and the potential is looking at: how can we get a line through this private property.

A

It's all private property, but there is a line through there that you get a mountain.

E

Yep and that I think your suggestion inheritance is great. We're looking at constitution running.

E

We're in the process of getting a multi-use lane all the way down constitution all the way and.

E

That's because of the you know, there's population in there that we're trying to connect. We want to.

E

We want to build these networks, it can't be done immediately and it it's you're, absolutely right.

E

There's not a lot of road uh with on ocean road to be able to do that. uh Then it'll be challenging.

B

My concern is always if people who aren't the major you believe something try to do it like.

B

You know like the mess on the street, everybody has their opinions, but sometimes I feel like.

B

If enough, cyclists would live in a nice city development, obviously there were cyclists involved.

B

In the project like people who, if you've only lived here and you've only cycled here, you don't.

B

Always get kind of the big picture of how they're close to it. You know I get concerned when I.

B

I'd love to talk to you, I'd love, to talk to you more about cycling and- and you know I I've I've.

A

Cycled in sequels, for you know, 30 plus 40 years, so I'm very familiar with all the challenges.

E

But you know suffice to say you know we have we're sympathetic to that. We understand it.

E

And again, it's a balance uh when we're we're impacting other folks. um You know it's as you.

A

Know the middle middle street bike lane is is something that it was a pilot effort. um You know.

E

Was it the best location, at least debatable? uh But you know it is providing a function um right.

A

And we're learning from it so we'll do better and your point is well founded. I mean it might.

A

Be that heritage you know we built a multi-use trail on route. One and heritage is the better.

A

Way to get there than ocean road and we need to do those studies, we need to do all that work.

A

But that's not what we're here for so, let's, let's, let's focus on. Let's focus on finishing up this.

E

Discussion so that we can, you know, have informal discussions afterwards. That people would like.

E

But you know if, let's you had a hand your hand up, was there more questions relative to the no.

A

I'm sorry, I thought you did right yeah I did. I was actually I'm sorry yeah you're, looking at it.

G

Behind uh what just side of the multi-use trail, what is considered multi-use trail.

E

Eight to ten feet is a multi-user, so nothing smaller than eight feet is.

A

Considered a multi-use trail, ten feet is preferred. Eight feet is.

A

Minimum okay and then a multi-use trail basically allows you to ride your bike or walk on the same.

A

Trail right and now, multiple trails could it be a concrete, most likely yeah the asphalt road.

E

Bus station there eric.

E

Our transportation engineer can relay that to um post, and now we can see if it's possible.

A

Yes, it does, I didn't know it went through maple leaven.

A

I thought I thought I thought it turned around at uh at the hillcrest.

A

Turns around hillcrest, I think also you could tell eric exactly where what location it is.

G

Yeah right, south side, yeah, that's a great point: yeah, okay, anybody else.

A

G

There's nobody else in chat here: okay,.

E

As dave said, people aren't losing their property, the right-of-way will get narrow.

E

The property that we're working on is city right-of-way, we're not.

E

Working on people's markets well, we're gonna we're gonna survey it to make sure we're correct.

A

Okay, I'm gonna stop sharing the next step.

A

uh The next steps for outline there that we're gonna finalize design go out to bed.

A

uh Have the numbers and then hopefully be in construction in the summer.

A

And we'll correct those other ones. Thank you. Everybody.