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From YouTube: Jan 2021 Chapter Meeting Nuclear Energy
Description
This month at the Chapter meeting, we will be hearing from Dave Kraft, safe-energy/anti-nuclear advocate, and co-founder of NEIS (Nuclear Energy Information Service). Dave will hold a conversation entitled "We Can't 'Nuke' Climate Change: The case against nuclear power as an effective climate change fighter".
More about our speaker! Dave Kraft has served as its director since its inception in 1981. Prior to becoming an energy activist, his academic background was in astronomy and psychology at Northwestern University and Northeastern University in Chicago. He worked as a para-professional therapist for 12 years in Chicago. Kraft’s interest in the environment moved him to found NEIS with seven other people, to provide the public with credible information about the hazards and effects of nuclear power and waste; and the viable alternatives to replace them. Kraft is an accomplished public speaker and writer on nuclear topics. He has been called upon to testify in hearings related to nuclear power at the State and Federal level. He created the “Know Nukes!” nuclear video series with CAN-TV Chicago; and is a co-founder of the Radiation Monitoring Project, providing training and field monitors to communities contaminated by radioactive substances. He has received recognition and awards for his work, most recently the Judith Johnsrud “Unsung Hero of the Year” award for his lifelong activism, in May, 2016.
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B
So
leah,
we
thought
we
would
check
to
make
sure
that
dave's
screen
sharing
can
work,
and
I
also
wanted
dave
to
ask
if
there's
anything
I
I
think
rather
than
repeat
your
official
bio
I'll,
just
put
it
in
the
chat
and
then,
if
there's
anything
specific,
you
want
me
to
be
sure
to
highlight.
Let
me
know
and
we'll
do
that.
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C
To
meet
you
mentor,
okay,
yes,
you
too,
I'm
excited
about
this.
You
know,
kovit
has
been
a
brutal
year
on
everybody,
but
we
do
planning
sessions
in
november.
So
in
november
of
19
we
were
just
like
raring
to
go.
We
had
presentations
lined
up
and
oh
man,
we,
you
know
we
did
the
some
of
the
power
points
and
then
you
know
the
cake
fell,
so
it
I
I'm
glad
for
this
opportunity,
because
it
gave
me
a
chance
to
go
back
and
clean
up
the
slideshow
and
update
things
and
get
back
in
that
mode.
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I
have
to
unless
there's
anything
else
directly
that
we
need
to
address
prior
to
the
call
we've
tested,
roger
the
slides
and
they
work,
and
I
see,
we've
got
also
another
of
our
executive
committee
members
richard
is
joining
us
he's
our
events,
chair
and
we'll
be,
I
think,
he's
going
to
be
involved
in
in
leading
this
meeting
right.
Richard.
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A
So
richard,
I
don't
think
our
account
allows
co-hosts.
So
I,
however,
have
enabled
the
screen
sharing
for
multiple
participants.
Dave
has
tested
that
tested
that
so
richard
you
should
be
able
to
do
that
and
if
you
need
any
other
host
function,
I
can
just
assign
you
the
host,
so
I
will
no
longer
be
the
host
like.
How
do
you
want
to
proceed.
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D
But
I
think
other
than
just
letting
me
you
know,
go
through
the
agenda,
you
know
I
don't
have
much
to
say
I'm
just
going
to
keep
the
meeting
moving
along.
I
think
we
want
to
try.
This
meeting
is
slated
for
an
hour
and
a
half,
but
we
want
to
keep
moving
them
towards
an
hour
and
a
half
one
hour
as
time
goes
by.
E
Okay,
richard,
I
just
sent
you
an
email
which
you
may
not
have
seen
in
the
last
minute.
That
says,
on
the
one
hand,
I
don't
have
any
closing
remarks
leah
may
or
simon
may,
but
I
want
to.
I
want
to
be
after
the
presentation
in
the
q-
a
if
you
will,
if
you
will
recognize
me
just
prior
to
lynne,
garavaglia,
I'm
going
to
say
one
minute
about
the
self-care
group
and
introduce
her
as
our
first
presenter,
but
I
just
want
to
give
a
little
a
little
piece
about
why
we're
doing
this.
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C
B
It's
they're
very
talented
too.
We
we
start
our
our
meetings,
as
you
just
heard,
with
a
contribution
from
our
creators
group
and
one
thing
we
did
recently
was
a
blues
song
about
shingle
mountain.
You
know
the
pollution
in
dallas
that
was
dumped
and
dan
and
ryan
hamilton
of
our
chapter,
composed
this
really
wonderful
blues
song
about
that.
So
that
was
good.
B
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E
A
A
Oh
okay,
I
think
that's
right,
sorry,
guys,
sorry
jeff
and
I
are
trying
to
figure
out
the
half
phone
situations
here
because
we're
like
right
across
each
other,
but
I
don't
like
to
point
the
audios
out
so
hello,
everybody.
So
if
you
just
hop
on,
you
can
drop
your
name
and
your
pronoun
gender
pronoun.
If
you
prefer
that's
an
option.
Okay
in
the
chat
in
the
chat.
A
B
A
Okay,
I
think
we
can
start.
I
think
we
can
start
okay,
cool
awesome.
Thank
you
guys
so
much
for
being
here
again,
we
are
starting
2021
today,
okay,
so
before
we
start
our
meeting,
my
name
is
lea.
Mar
I
will
be
the
well.
I
I
not
won't
be
anymore.
I
am
the
co-vice
chair
of
the
chapter
this
year,
along
with
simon
rook,
so
shout
out
to
simon.
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We
must
all
recommit
ourselves
to
defending
and
upholding
our
institutions
to
solve
the
problems
facing
our
country
today,
including
covenanting,
racial
injustice
and
the
climate
crisis.
And
lastly,
I
promise
this
is
the
last
thing
for
me.
We
invite
you
to
include
your
gender
pronouns
in
your
zoom
name.
It's
an
option.
It's
not
required!
A
You
can
do
so
by
going
to
participant
in
your
zoom
window,
down
below
and
hover
to
yourself
on
and
click
on,
more
and
rename
and
put
it
in
there
and
we'll
start
this
practice
or
encouraging
this
practice
starting
from
this
year,
starting
from
this
year.
And
lastly,
I'm
she
her
I'm
really
grateful
for
another
year
to
serve
with
you
all
and
I'm
going
to
pass
it
back
to
richard.
I'm
going
to
pass
it
back
to
richard.
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E
Well,
I
was,
I
was
planning
to
introduce
lynn
later
for
the
self-care
work
group,
but
I'm
happy
to
say
I
am
so
delighted
by
what
the
creative
group
has
been
bringing
to
our
chapter
meetings
and
beth.
Buntley
is
apparently
bringing
something
an
introductory
video
from
that
group
today.
So
beth
I'll
just
pass
it
over
to
you
and
and
run
with
your
video.
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B
Actually
the
climate
march
in
new
york,
the
extinction
rebellion
events
there,
the
last
couple
of
years,
so
he
is
a
long-term
expert
and
long-time
expert
and
activist
in
this
area.
Obviously,
the
question
of
nuclear
energy
remains
a
a
big
one.
When
you've
got
you
know
several
people
considering
that
renewable
energy
considering
part
of
the
cluster
of
tech,
including
the
new
iteration
of
it
so-called
advanced
modular,
energy,
that's
being
pilot
tested
and
our
department
of
energy
under
the
the
still
current
president
has
supported
for
years.
B
C
C
C
C
So,
yes,
chip.
I've
been
at
this
a
while.
I
gave
my
first
climate
change
presentation
in
1988
because
in
illinois
we
had
a
drought
going
on
at
that
time
and
although
our
utility
was
begging,
everyone
to
save
electrons
and
turn
off
the
air
conditioner
and
whatever,
because
they
didn't
want
a
blackout,
they
were
turning
off
nuclear
power
plants
and
we
couldn't
figure
out
well.
Why
is
that
happening?
C
They
need
the
power
yet
they're,
shutting
down
the
nukes,
and
that
was
the
beginning
of
the
exploration
as
to
why
nuclear
power
is
really
ill-suited
to
deal
with
the
climate
crisis
back
then
it
turns
out
that
they
were
cooking
the
rivers,
because
the
water
they
were
dumping
back
in
was
exceeding
the
epa
thermal
standards
in
1999.
We
kind
of
formalized
this
into
a
project.
C
We
call
you
can't
nuke
global
warming,
which
has
since
morphed
into
we
can't
nuke
climate
change
and,
as
chip
pointed
out,
I
was
in
group
number
four
with
al
gore
down
in
nashville.
So
it's
been
a
long
time
since
I've
done
a
presentation
and
I'm
sure
it's
changed
a
lot
since.
But
this
presentation,
you're
about
to
see,
is,
is
sort
of
our
substitute
for
that.
So
I'm
gonna
go
into
share
screen
mode
now
I
hope
and
we're
going
to
dive
in.
C
C
C
When
I
first
started
this
slideshow,
I
think
we're
at
390.
so
times
have
changed
a
little
bit
of
background,
so
you
know
where
the
nuclear
industry
is
and
why
it's
ill-suited
internationally.
There
are
only
408
reactors
operating
in
31
countries,
and
some
of
you
I
can
tell
by
the
color
of
your
hair,
I
can
see
we
use
the
same
hair
dye.
Richard
nixon
back
in
1980,
wanted
a
thousand
reactors
just
up
and
down
the
coast
of
california
alone.
C
C
The
number
of
reactors
that
are
under
construction
are
fewer
than
the
number
of
reactors
that
are
intended
to
close
down
over
the
next
10
15
20
years.
So
nuclear
as
an
industry
internationally
is
on
the
decline
in
the
united
states.
We're
only
operating
94
reactors
at
this
point
that
gives
us
about
19
percent
of
our
electrical
demand
and
roughly
depends
on
the
year
eight
to
ten
percent
of
total
net.
C
C
C
C
So
what
are
the
pros
of
nuclear?
I'm
sure
a
lot
of
you
already
know
it.
You
get
a
lot
of
heat
and
a
lot
of
centralized
electrical
power
coming
from
one
site.
Those
are
the
benefits,
but
there
are
quite
a
few
cons.
Unfortunately,
I
won't
leave
this
one
up
too
long,
but
over
the
years
I've
kind
of
accumulated
some
of
my
favorite
myths
about
nuclear
power.
C
C
We've
all
been
warned
that
renewable
energy
can't
replace
base
load
power.
Yet
you
folks
in
texas,
have
the
largest
wind
contribution
in
the
entire
nation.
Environmentalists
are
changing
their
mind
about
nuclear
power.
These
are
some
of
the
nonsense.
Arguments
that
you
will
hear
repeatedly
as
to
for
as
justifications
for
continued
use
of
nuclear
and
chip
alluded
to
one
earlier
too.
This
notion
that
there's
a
new
generation
of
reactors
that
are
coming
they're,
inherently
safe,
they're,
cheaper,
they're,
smaller
they
make
coffee,
they
cure
herpes.
C
C
When
we
started
the
program
back
in
1999,
we
came
up
with
this
two
by
four
rule,
which
actually
had
nothing
to
do
with
nuclear.
But
just
as
a
thought
exercise,
we
were
trying
to
figure
out.
If
you
were
to
pick
an
energy
resource,
what
what
qualities
would
it
have
and
what
limitations
would
it
have
and
it
turns
out.
We
found
that
there
were
two
constraints
and
four
rules
that
any
any
energy
resource
has
to
abide
by
if
it
should
be
considered
suitable
for
dealing
with
the
climate
issue.
C
We'll
start
with
the
constraints.
The
first
is
we're
out
of
time.
You
know
back,
then
we
had
some
buffer,
but
we're
out
of
time
now.
In
fact,
we
have
eight
years
left
before
we
get
to
the
ipcc
deadline.
That
was
mentioned
in
october
of
2018,
and
the
other
is
money
to
do
the
transformation
necessary
to
get
us
off
of
fossil
fuels,
to
implement
new
energy
resources
and
to
deal
with
some
of
the
other
economic
disruptions
that
that's
going
to
dole
out
we're
going
to
need
upwards
of
50
trillion
dollars.
C
If
you
believe
this
morgan
stanley
report
from
2019.
so
clearly
those
are
constraints
that
have
to
be
acknowledged
and
dealt
with,
whether
it's
legislatively
economically
engineering-wise
whatever.
Now
there
is
a
third
constraint
that
we
have
been
pointing
out,
and
that
is
that
the
energy
resource
should
not
encourage
equally
damaging
or
troubling
or
threatening
incidents
like
proliferation
of
nuclear
weapons,
terrorism
or
the
geopolitics
involved.
C
But
we
don't
mention
that
one,
because
this
is
a
two
by
four
rule
and
we
deliberately
picked
two
by
four
nobody's
ever
heard
of
three
by
fours,
so
we'll
just
kind
of
put
the
security
thing
on
hold
for
him.
But
let's
look
at
the
rules.
The
rules
are,
I
think,
self-evident,
and
you
could
apply
this
to
energy
any
energy
resource.
C
C
seven
years
ten
months,
clock
is
ticking
james
hansen
way
back
in
2007,
mr
atmospheric
scientist,
who
is
now
pro-nuclear
and
I've
gotten
in
arguments
with
him
before
about
this,
but
he
was
even
pointing
out
that
if
we
don't
get
moving
it's
game
over
and
what
he
also
emphasized
way
back
when
he
was
an
atmospheric
scientist.
Is
that
it's
the
upfront
carbon,
the
stuff
that
we're
belching
out
now?
That
is
the
critical
carbon
that
has
to
be
addressed,
not
the
stuff.
We
can
deal
with
20
30
years
later,
when
you
can
build
nuclear
power
plants.
C
So
there's
a
little
contradiction
in
his
message,
but
way
back
in
2007.
He
was
already
saying
this
or
janja
pachari
back
in
2012
same
thing,
you
know,
urgency!
That's
what
we
see
the
ipc
tells
us
what
we
have
to
do:
keep
temperature
below
1.5
centigrade.
Some
of
you
may
have
seen
within
the
last
week.
There
have
been
two
reports
that
are
out
that
we've
already
blown
past
the
opportunity
to
keep
it
below
two
degrees
centigrade.
C
So
we've
wasted
a
lot
of
time.
Regrettably,
have
wasted
a
lot
of
money
in
the
meantime,
so
I
would
you
know,
there's
some
parts
of
this
slideshow
I've
updated,
but
there's
some
I've
left
in
place
because
I
know
they
were
old
and
I
know
they
were.
You
know
this
is
a
deliberate
choice.
So
what
I
did
way
back
in
the
day
when
I
first
put
this
together
was
I
started
looking
around
the
literature,
what
were
the
experts
say?
C
C
C
He
said
we
need
5
000
reactors
practically
by
the
year,
2021
just
to
displace
all
the
coal
plants
worldwide
and
probably
natural
gas
as
well,
and
all
we
would
get
for
that.
5
000
reactor
investment
is
a
20
reduction
in
the
projected
world
greenhouse
gas
inventory,
a
colleague
of
mine
at
the
institute
for
energy
and
environmental
research
in
2005
calculated.
We
would
need
2
000
reactors
by
the
year,
2040.
C
C
So
let's
take
those
numbers
of
mit,
mr
williams
and
the
ieee
are
now.
These
numbers
are
numbers
that
reflect
when
I
first
started
calculating
this
back
in
the
day
when
we
put
this
together,
so
the
13
505
days
for
the
1500
reactors,
we've
already
eaten
up
some
of
those
days.
You
know
in
the
time
intervening,
but
even
at
that
pace
we
would
have
needed
to
build
one
reactor
every
nine
days
for
37
years
in
a
row
only
for
a
modest
reduction
in
greenhouse
gas
emissions.
C
C
C
So
this
is
the
nuclear
industry.
That's
supposed
to
bail
us
out
of
climate
change.
What
are
the
costs?
Well
bill
is
right
again,
let's
do
the
math.
There
have
been
lots
of
experts.
In
fact,
I
should
have
pointed
out
earlier.
Don't
believe
a
word,
I'm
saying
we've
never
met
before
you
don't
know
who
I
am
you
know
I
may
be
paid
by.
You
know
some
nefarious
interests.
So,
let's
take
a
look
at
what
some
of
the
international
experts
have
said
about
this.
C
C
If
you
used
all
the
money
that
these
guys
want
to
play
on
nuclear
instead,
this
is
a
horrible
slide.
Nobody
can
read
it,
but
what's
important
are
the
colored
bars
because
it
gives
you
the
overnight
costs
of
the
various
energy
resources.
We're
looking
at
the
top
bar
is
the
so-called
advanced
nuclear,
the
the
new
generation
of
reactors
that
they
want
to
build
at
five
thousand
one
hundred
forty
eight
dollars
per
megawatt
and
the
bar
right
below
it
is
offshore
wind.
C
C
C
C
Now.
Let's
compare
those
numbers
to
the
green
new
deal.
It
was
a
republican
think
tank
that
came
up
with
this
wacko
number
when
they
were
shooting
down
the
green
new
deal
last
year
of
between
8.3
trillion
and
12.3
trillion
dollars,
and
they
said
we
couldn't
afford
that.
You
know,
and
that
was
only
just
to
eliminate
carbon
emissions.
You
know
from
the
power
and
transport
sector,
but
those
numbers
compare
quite
favorably
to
what
the
nuclear
people
are
saying.
They
want
to
spend
just
to
get
rid
of
a
little
bit
of
greenhouse
gas.
C
C
C
So
in
ohio,
the
existing
reactors
there
was
a
billion
dollar
bailout.
I
already
went
over
the
bailout
or
the
over
costs
for
the
georgia
local
reactors
in
south
carolina.
They
were
building
a
reactor.
The
person
involved
in
that
is
now
under
federal
indictment
for
fraud,
on
a
9
billion
dollar
reactor
project
and
in
illinois
in
2016.
C
Our
state
legislature
handed
over
2.3
billion
dollars
just
to
keep
three
reactors
operating
for
10
years
and
in
new
york
it
was
even
worse,
eight
and
a
half
billion
now.
I
also
want
to
compare
these
numbers
to
something
you
folks
may
recall,
and
that
was
the
big
hue
and
cry
about
how
those
awful
renewable
energy
bandits
were.
Fraud,
defrauding
the
federal
government
at
the
solyndra
solar
project
out
in
california
that
cost
the
treasury
528
million
dollars.
C
Well.
So
what
when
you
compare
to
the
bailouts
and
the
cost
overruns
that
have
already
happened
in
the
nuclear
industry,
those
amount
to
over
34
billion
dollars
of
lost
revenue
that
could
have
been
put
to
renewable
energy
or
energy
efficiency
or
whatever
65
times
the
size
of
this
little
indian
bankruptcy?
C
Let's
talk
about
water,
arguably
already
the
world's
most
important
resource,
but
in
a
climate
disruptive
world
it'll
become
even
more
so
I
won't
go
through
a
lot
of
these.
These
are
examples
of
when
nuclear
reactors
had
to
shut
down,
as
I
mentioned,
starting
in
1988,
because
they
were
thermally,
polluting,
the
rivers
and
waterways
they
were
adjacent
to.
They
were
also
shut
down
for
other
reasons
like
they
were
overheating
their
own
building
and
they
were
automatically
closing
themselves
down
by
computer
program.
C
Nuclear
reactors
increased
thermal
discharge,
they
still
give
us
their
risk
of
accidents
and
other
allowable
releases
and
they're
all
located
in
areas
that
are
water,
sensitive
flood
plains,
coastal
areas,
the
shores
of
lakes.
All
of
this
is
up
for
grabs
in
the
climate
disrupted
world.
You
can
move
a
wind
farm,
you
can
dismantle
turbines
and
move
them
somewhere
else.
You
cannot
move
a
nuclear
reactor
once
you
sight
it
someplace.
C
So
I'm
not
the
one
saying
we're
not
going
to
build
any
more
nuclear
power
plants.
It's
william
van
hoon,
the
senior
vice
president
and
chief
strategy
officer
at
exelon,
who
said
it
three
years
ago.
He
doesn't
think
they're
ever
going
to
build
any.
But
yet,
when
you
go
to
the
federal
budget
this
year,
that's
being
proposed
you're,
going
to
see
some
money
in
there
we'll
get
to
that
in
a
minute.
C
C
Who
knows
what
it'll
be
for
other
microbes
of
the
future
all
right?
So
if
we
don't
want
nuclear,
we
don't
pick
nuclear.
What
are
we
going
to
do?
Well,
you've
probably
heard
this
phrase.
Over
and
over
again
is
we
have
to
do
all
of
the
above
right
everything's
on
the
table
right.
We
have
to
be
open
to
everything
we
can't
just
take
one
and
not
the
other.
We
can't
be
selective.
C
Ene
news,
the
reporter
there
says
president-elect
biden,
who
has
included
proposals
for
new
generation
of
nuclear
reactors
in
his
clean
energy
platform,
and
this
one
gets
me
the
most-
and
this
is
the
most
problematic
for
all
of
us.
Whether
you
like
nuclear
or
not,
is
that
senator
joe
manchin
of
west
virginia
is
going
to
be
chairing
the
senate
energy
committee
he's
going
to
be
the
bottleneck
for
any
climate
response
legislation
that
comes
out.
This
is
seriously
a
problem
and
who
says
not
all
of
the
above.
Well,
there's
lots
of
people
who
say
this.
C
The
urgency
of
world
hunger
does
not
compel
us
to
fight
it
with
caviar,
no
matter
how
nutrition
fish
eggs
might
be
same
with
nuclear
power,
an
exotic
resource
ill-suited
for
the
climate
disrupted
world,
so
is
really
everything
on
the
table.
Let's
ask
that
in
all
seriousness,
let's
take
a
look:
are
they
willing
to
discuss
ending,
predatory
capitalism,
how
about
rampant
consumerism
or
eliminating
all
fossil
fuel
subsidies
immediately?
C
C
And
it
is
a
crisis
again
my
hero
says
so,
and
we
have
to
begin
the
process
of
changing
the
system
because
it
obviously
is
not
changing
itself.
Now
I
put
this
up
here.
A
colleague
of
mine
wrote
this
book
in
2007
he's
the
president
of
the
institute
for
energy
and
environmental
research
in
tacoma
park.
C
14
years
ago
he
was
challenged
by
a
woman
named
dr
helen
caldecott
to
come
up
with
a
plan
that
would
get
rid
of
all
fossil
fuels
and
all
nuclear
fuels
in
a
cost
competitive
way
in
a
timely
manner.
He
told
her,
it
couldn't
be
done
and
she
said,
come
on
I'll,
raise
the
money
for
you,
you
research
it
he
took
a
year
and
by
the
way
he's
a
physicist.
He
got
his
phd
in
nuclear
fusion.
He's
an
engineer.
He's
no
dummy
he's
helped
the
state
of
maryland
on
their
implementing
renewable
energy
resources.
C
You
know
everyone
says:
oh,
we
can't
do
renewables,
but
we're
already
doing
renewables
and
again
I've
left
my
old
quotes
in
here
to
show
you
we
were
doing
this
11
years
ago
and
all
the
different
resources
that
were
available
to
us
over
all
that
time,
things
that
have
already
happened.
Wind
and
solar,
already
outpaced
nuclear
in
england
as
of
two
years
ago,.
C
So
I
I'll
I'm
getting
towards
the
end
here.
I'm
just
gonna
tell
you
what
you
folks
already
know.
We
know
where
the
wind
is.
We
know
where
the
people
are.
What's
the
problem
connectivity,
so
the
real
issue
we
have
to
look
at
moving
forward
here
is
the
appropriate
transmission
and
distribution
set
up,
and
the
problem
is
that
the
kind
of
system
that
nuclear
and
the
coal
plants
need
is
qualitatively
different
than
the
kind
of
tnd
system
that
renewables
distributed
generation
and
those
kind
of
folks
need.
C
C
I
put
them
in
in
equivalence
of
nuclear
power
plants,
american
offshore,
wind,
the
equivalent
of
300
nuclear
power
plants
just
along
the
west
coast
of
the
state
of
michigan.
There
is
a
theoretical
wind
potential
for
100
nuclear
power
plants
worth
of
electricity,
none
of
which
is
being
used
today
same
thing
with
solar,
though
where's
the
great
solar
spots,
and
where
do
the
people
live
somewhere
else,
but
again
2008?
C
C
Nuclear
is
not
a
solution,
it
is
a
problem.
In
fact,
in
terms
of
the
climate
crisis,
you
could
probably
look
at
nuclear
power
as
the
maginot
line
in
the
climate
fight
before
world
war
ii,
france
spent
billions
of
francs
to
keep
the
germans
out
by
building
this
line.
It
made
lots
of
money
for
the
contractors
that
were
involved,
but
when
it
was
supposed
to
do
its
job,
it
failed
miserably
and
that
we
fear,
is
what
would
happen
if
we
hit
our
climate
plan
to
the
nuclear
industry.
C
So
this
is
a
whole
quote,
because
you
know
folks,
like
you
and
us,
are
the
wackos
right,
we're
the
fringe,
we're
the
the
folks
that
are
challenging
common
sense.
Well,
there's
a
good
reason,
for
it
is
because
common
sense
isn't
quite
so
common,
and
I
think
this
quote
kind
of
gets
that
point
across,
but
here's
another
one
that
I
value
very
highly
and
this
great
yachts
go
is
the
former
chair
of
the
u.s
nuclear
regulatory
commission.
C
He
was
one
of
the
five
commissioners
in
the
obama
years
and
he
wrote
a
book
a
few
years
ago
about
his
experience
at
the
nrc,
which
it's
just
horrific
reading
as
to
how
captive
the
agency
is
by
the
nuclear
industry.
It's
supposed
to
regulate,
and
he
has
come
to
the
conclusion
that
nuclear
power
just
cannot
work
to
solve
the
climate
crisis.
C
It
will
fail
the
planet
when
it
comes
to
deal
with
climate
change,
because
it's
just
not
up
to
the
task,
and
I
couldn't
end
the
slideshow
without
going
back
to
my
hero,
because
our
job,
I
believe,
as
activists,
is
to
catalyze
the
kinds
of
change,
the
kinds
of
thinking
that
is
needed
to
break
through
the
old
thought
and
and
even
the
old
economics
moving
forward.
And
that
is
really
what
we
have
to
do.
C
B
B
Is
that
he's
keeping
it
on
the
table,
but
he
does
recognize
the
economic
constraints
that
you
mentioned
and
also
the
social
acceptability
constraints,
which,
of
course
includes
the
risk
element
and
the
waste
disposal
element
and
the
water
impacts
and
constraints
that
you
mentioned.
So
if
you
could
talk
about
that,
and
also
in
the
general
tech
solution
area,
brian
hassenbauer
had
a
question
about
battery
innovations
to
enhance
storage
of
wind
and
solar
renewables,
as
you
know,
as
really
you
know,
taking
it
to
even
a
next
level.
C
I
was
contemplating
adding
a
section
on
the
small
modular
nuclear
reactors.
I
did
mention
advanced
reactors
in
this
presentation
and
actually
those
are
when
we
talk
about
the
advanced
reactors.
I
think
what
people
are
really
talking
about
are
the
newer
and
improved
versions
of
the
ones
we
already
got
the
so-called
generation
four
reactors
that
are
being
built
and
they're
being
built.
I
I
showed
you
a
slide
that
china
is
doing
it.
India
is
doing
it.
C
Those
are
different
than
what
are
called
the
small
modular
nuclear
reactors
and
it's
my
understanding
that
gates
and
those
kind
of
folks
are
really
talking
about
the
small
modular
nukes.
These
are
supposedly
going
to
be
200
megawatts
or
smaller
they're
going
to
be
built
in
factories
and
modularized,
and
you
can,
you
know,
add
and
subtract
them
as
much
as
this
is
the
game
plan
for
them.
But
I'll
tell
the
story
which
really
said
it
all.
For
me,
this
is
not
new
talk
and
it's
not
new
thinking
on
the
part
of
bill
gates.
C
I
think
it
was
2010.
I
could
be
wrong
about
that,
but
on
youtube,
the
ted
talks
there
is
a
ted
talk
by
bill
gates
where
he
talks
about
the
new
traveling
wave
reactor
concept
and
boy
is
this
great?
Because
not
only
will
it
not
melt
down
it's
small
and
it
can
be
modularized
and
it'll
eat
the
nuclear
waste
that
we've
already
produced
and
got
it,
and
he
goes
on
for
25
minutes
about
all
the
great
things
about
small
modular
nuclear
reactors
of
you
know
this
variety.
C
That
says
it
all.
For
me,
it's
just
another
drain
on
the
r
d
budget,
and
I
I
had
some
numbers
I
didn't
put
in
the
slideshow
of
the
currently
proposed
budget
that
was
passed
last
december,
they're
talking
about
a
half
billion
dollars
over
the
next
five
years
on
research
and
development
on
how
to
cut
costs
and
prop
up
old,
uneconomic
nuclear
power
plants.
So
for
me,
I'm
not
saying
that
these
engineers
are
deceptive
or
somehow
immoral.
I
think
they
believe
in
their
projects.
They
believe
in
their
physics,
they
believe
in
their
engineering
capabilities.
C
C
Just
another
study
of
the
last
week
I
wasn't
able
to
incorporate
in
the
slideshow
talked
about
how
dramatic
changes
in
in
selecting
the
proper
transmission
upgrades
that
we
need
to
make
anyway
could
reduce
energy
consumption
by
40
percent
in
the
united
states
over
the
next.
You
know
40
50
years
or
whatever
it
was.
I
forget,
don't
quote
me
on
that
number,
but
I
can
I'll
be
glad
to
send
the
study
out
to
people
or
the
the
article.
So
it's
the
kind
of
thing
of
can
we
versus
should
we.
C
Can
we
create
small
modular
reactors,
sucking
the
doe
dry
r
d
budget
dry
every
year?
Doing
it
sure
we
can?
Will
we
get
a
result
that
deals
with
the
climate,
no
not
in
any
timely
manner?
So
that's
what
distresses
me
the
most
is
I'm
not
doubting
anybody's
good
intentions
here.
You
know
I'll
leave
that
up
for
the
religious
people
to
handle
that
one.
What
I
am
saying
is
time
constraints,
time
and
money.
Four
rules,
you
know
most
carbon
quickest
time
least
cost.
Let's
not
create
another
environmental
crisis
like
nuclear
proliferation,
war
or
nuclear
accidents.
C
To
do
it.
That's
where
I
draw
the
line
on
all
that
stuff
with
the
smnr's
as
well
as
the
new
generation.
I
I'm
always
in
favor
of
safety
innovations,
keeping
what
we
got
going
as
safe
as
possible,
but
you
know
not
in
the
climate
budget,
make
it
somebody
else's
budget
if
they
want
it,
let
them
buy
it.
So
that's
the
first
that
was
part
of
the
first
part
of
the
question.
C
The
second
dealt
with
battery
storage,
I
believe
and
again
I'm
just
a
neophyte
on
the
battery
situation,
but
I've
been
seeing
some
very
neat
youtubes.
There
are
a
couple
of
really
astonishing
little
nugget
summary
kinds
of
pieces
out
there
on
battery
storage
developments.
There's
this
one
guy.
It's
called
he's
an
australian,
but
he's
based
in
england,
and
he
does.
This
thing
called
just
have
a
think,
I
believe,
is
the
name
of
the
program.
He's
done
some
really
interesting
stuff
on
battery
innovation.
C
Coming
up
now,
there's
a
number
of
ways
you
can
look
at
it.
We
already
know
that,
technologically
speaking,
there
are
different
battery
designs
that
are
already
being
looked
at.
Some
are
large
scale,
some
are
small
scale,
but
those
design
choices
probably
should
be
governed
by
the
kind
of
energy
system
you
want
to
create.
C
If
you're
going
to
create
a
decentralized
distributed,
energy
resource
you're,
going
to
need
a
qualitatively
different
kind
of
battery
storage
setup
than
you
would,
if
you're
going
to
continue
with
nuclear
plants,
coal
plants
or
something
big,
and
there
are
different
designs
that
work
better
for
those.
But
the
other
thing
I
would
point
out
is
in
chicago
where
I'm
in
I've
got
this
article.
It
must
be
six
seven
years
ago
a
company
started,
they
built
three
utility
scale
battery
storage
sites
just
outside
of
chicago.
C
I
think
they
were
50
megawatts
each
and
that's
really
what
you
want.
A
storage
system
to
be
is
the
buffer
for
those
peak
days
in
winter
and
in
summer,
when
you're
really
going
to
start
getting
close
to.
You
know
your
capacity
and
you
need
that
that
back
up
peak
power,
that's
where
battery
storage
comes
in
the
best,
so
it's
already
been
done
using
crappy
old.
You
know,
nickel
cad
batteries.
You
know
in
blocks,
look
at
australia
what
they're
doing!
C
B
Okay,
roger
has
a
question
so
we'll
go
to
him
in
a
moment,
but
michael
had
a
quick
question
about
the
national.
I
think
it's
renewable
energy
laboratory,
which
has
been
focused
on
solar,
what's
their
position
on
nuclear
energy.
If
you
know
that
and
then
we'll
go
to
roger
for
an
open
question,
I
do
not.
C
Yeah
yeah
I'll
I'll
check
it
out
I'll
report
back
sometime,
okay,
so
labs
do
multi.
You
know
they're
on
they're,
one
of
the
all
of
the
above
sources
too,
and
argon
national
laboratory
is
a
good
example
of
that
they're
affiliated
with
the
university
of
chicago
and
the
lab
is
just
outside
of
chicago
but
out
in
idaho.
They
have
an
affiliate
lab
that
deals
with
nuclear
reactors
and
nuclear
waste.
E
E
C
Well,
yeah,
you
know
we
could
have
done
a
whole
slideshow
on
what
I
call
nuclear
politics
and
nuclear
corruption,
in
fact
we're
actually
having
a
kind
of
an
in-house
webinar
with
activists
in
the
great
lakes
on
monday
night
about
this.
Because
of
all
those
scandals
that
I
listed
in
the
slideshow,
I
can
probably
respond
to
it
by
examples
rather
than
you
know,
like
definite
blocks
of
knowledge,
but
yes,
number
one
for
sure.
C
The
fossil
fuel
folks
and
the
nuclear
folks
have
been
duking
it
out
for
a
while,
especially
at
the
state
level
here
in
illinois,
the
sierra
club
and
a
100
other
organizations
have
a
campaign
going
to
really
eliminate
the
fossil
fuel
industry.
So,
of
course,
they're
fighting
back
and
they're
saying:
hey,
look
the
nuclear
guys
got
bailed
out
how
come
we're
not
getting
bailed
out
and
so
they're
everybody
is
a
cannibal
and
the
cannibals
always
eat
the
cannibals
and
they're
always
going
to
be
opportunistic
in
the
way
they
do
it.
C
Exelon
again
is
a
perfect
example
of
that
they're
touting
themselves
in
our
state.
Legislature,
now
is:
oh.
We
need
to
stay
on
a
line
to
how
do
they
put
it.
It's
a
great
euphemism,
oh
to
reward
the
we
are
not
appropriately
rewarded
for
the
environmental
benefits
that
we
provide.
That's
their
that's
what
they
say
to
the
legislators.
C
We
are
clean,
green
and
emissions
free.
Now
I
could
do
a
whole
slideshow
on
clean,
green
and
emissions
free
too,
but
I
don't
think
11
000
tons
of
radioactive
waste
sitting
on
the
shores
of
illinois
rivers
is
clean
or
a
thousand
tons
on
the
shore
of
lake
michigan
within
eight
minutes
of
o'hare
field.
C
C
The
crux
of
the
problem
is
that
both
of
these
industries
have
well-placed
lobbyists
in
dc
that
are
going
to
continue
this
about
them,
having
a
role
to
play
and
meeting
the
energy
future,
and
so
our
since
2013,
when
we
have
met
with
our
state
legislators,
we
have
been
trying
to
introduce
a
new
concept
to
them.
We're
telling
them
look.
C
We
know
you
guys
are
legislators,
you
got
to
make
decisions
in
the
short
term
or
you
don't
get
elected.
We
understand
your
problem,
but
the
world
doesn't
care.
Climate
change
doesn't
care
and
we
are
not.
We
need
we
when
I
don't.
We
not
only
don't
need
an
energy
transformation
which
is
very
incremental
and
very
linear
and
everybody
gets
something,
and
you
know
all
the
r
d
money
gets
sprinkled
around.
You
know
like
fairy.
C
That's
over,
we
need,
what's
called
a
transform
transformation
and
transformations.
We
have
to
start
using
this
word.
It
is
a
transformative
moment.
It
is
not
a
transitional
moment
because
in
transformations
industries
go
away
there,
you
do
pick
and
choose
the
ones
that
are
better
or
not.
People
will
get
hurt
unless
they
are
properly
prepared
for
and
compensated
for,
the
pain
that
they're
going
to
endure,
and
there
I'm
referring
to
the
just
transitions
piece
where
we
have
to
take
care
of
the
coal
communities,
the
mining
communities
and
the
nuclear
communities
when
these
plants
shut
down.
C
So
this
is
one
of
our
responses
to
the
whole
huge
problem,
roger
that
I
mean
that's
the
real
problem.
I've
always
said
to
people.
Nuclear
power
has
nothing
to
do
with
electrons,
it
has
everything
to
do
with
influence
and
money,
and
you
have
no
farther
to
look
than
the
obama
administration,
because
obama
came
out
of
illinois
and
illinois.
Politics
was
governed
by
comed
exelon
corporation.
C
B
B
Yeah
and
tom
had
two
questions.
Actually
he
had
a
point.
You
mentioned
dave
that
there
are
missions
on
the
back
end
in
terms
of
nuclear
waste,
that's
not
free
or
devoid
of
externalities,
environmentally
and
economically,
but
also
on
the
front
end.
Tom
rightly
pointed
out
that
uranium
fuel
mining
itself
involves
fossil
fuel
emissions
and
the
process
of
mining
so
up
front
as
well
as
at
the
end
are
our
externalities.
B
His
question,
though,
is
on
the
risk
management
going
forward
for
those
that
are
going
to
need
to
be,
you
know
normally
and
safely
decommission
the
408
operating
nuclear
plants
and
there's
also
a
related,
or
you
know
we
can.
We
can
shoehorn
it
into
being
related.
Land
holds
question
about
grid
deficiencies,
and
you
know
the
sort
of
road
map
or
updating
the
grid
in
terms
of
the
needs
of
the
future,
no
matter
how
the
energy
is
generated,.
C
All
right,
so,
let's
see
yes,
let's
start
with
the
externality
piece
the
before
and
after
the
whole,
other
slideshow
we
could
do
is
making
power.
It's
not
clean,
green
and
free,
and
we
point
out
that
you
have
to
examine
the
entire
carbon
footprint
of
every
energy
resource
too,
and
that's
been
done
numerous
times
and
the
problem
with
that
is
of
course
it's
a
geigo
situation.
Garbage
in
garbage
out
any
model
you
pick
is
going
to
be
subject
to
the
constraints
of
whatever
assumptions
you
build
into
it.
C
So
I've
seen
everything
from
the
nuclear
industry
and
the
nuclear
energy
institute
claiming
nuclear
has
a
smaller
footprint
than
you
know.
Anything
except
wind
to
people
like
silvapal
and
others
who
say
forget
that
that's
crazy!
You
know,
nuclear's
footprint
is
much
bigger
because
you
forgot
this
this
this
and
this.
C
The
trial
rig
tried
in
niger,
the
aborigines
in
australia
they're
the
ones
who
are
dealing
with
uranium
mining
issues
because
we
left
it
for
them.
You
know
we're
the
ones
who
contaminated
their
water
with
mill,
tailings
and
stuff
like
that.
So
unless
those
costs
are
built
into
your
analysis,
you're
not
talking
anything.
So
uranium
mining
is
significant.
C
C
C
C
You
know
outside
out
of
mind
right,
and
so
that's
going
to
be
the
big
fight
and
our
position
on
that
since
2001,
where
we
met
with
98
other
environmental
groups
in
connecticut,
is
what
we're
going
to
have
to
do
for
now
is
the
lesser
of
evil
choices
we
are
going
to
have
to
do.
What's
called
hardened
on-site
storage,
it's
an
enhanced
version
of
what
they're
already
doing
to
store
the
waste
at
the
reactor
sites,
but
it's
much
more
safe.
C
Sort
of
a
file
and
forget
thing
we
we
can't
allow
it
to
have
access.
You
know
to
the
future,
because
it's
just
too
deadly
and
material.
The
other
problem
with
the
nuclear
waste,
though
internationally,
is
looking
where
they
are
talking
about,
citing
these
nuclear
reactors
either
the
new
ones
or
the
old
ones.
C
You
know
so
yeah.
There
is
a
carbon
footprint
issue
on
the
decommissioning
part
and
what
to
do
with
the
waste?
You
know
what
did
einstein
say:
clever
people
solve
problems,
geniuses
avoid
them.
Our
job
is
to
avoid
future
nuclear
so
that
we
don't
have
to
solve
the
problems
of
what
to
do
with
the
waste
eventually.
So
that
may
be
an
insufficient
answer
or
an
unsatisfying
one,
but
we're
looking
in
both
directions.
We
have
made
concrete
proposals.
We've
been
ignored
that
the
powers
that
be
but
we'll
keep
at
it.
What
was
the
second
part?
Now?
B
I
think
you
answered
it
richard
and
I'm
dave
excuse
me
and
we
are
exactly
at
the
time
we
allocated
to
wrap
up
and
move
to
the
next
part
of
the
presentation,
but
it
was
a
very
eye-opening,
enlightening
talk
and
we
are
all
grateful
for
it.
Please.
Everybody
join
me
in
some
virtual
applause
for
his
expertise
and
insights.
C
C
D
E
Thank
you.
Let
me
let
me
just
first
express
my
appreciation
to
today
for
this
presentation.
I
can't
quite
imagine
a
better
way
for
the
chapter
to
kick
off
the
year
than
than
with
this
presentation.
This
was
this
was
fascinating,
very
informative.
It's
gotten
me
fired
up
again
and-
and
I
appreciate
it
greatly
thanks
also
to
chip
and
to
dan
who
worked
to
put
this
together
and
everybody
else,
who's
been
arranging
the
meetings,
so
I
want
to.
We
have
one
more
little
piece
to
the
meeting.
E
We
are
aiming
to
keep
our
meetings
more
time
limited
this
year
in
response
to
lots
of
comments
that
our
meetings
were
getting
too
long.
People
couldn't
devote
that
much
time
on
a
saturday,
but
we're
going
to
have
a
regular
new
piece.
At
the
end,
it's
modeled
a
little
bit
on
the
opening
that
we've
had
coming
from
the
creatives
from
set
for
several
months,
but
let
me
set
a
little
context
for
this
new
piece
of
our
meetings
during
the
summer
in
the
in
the
global
trainings.
E
Depleted
depressed
discouraged,
disheartened
lots
of
them,
like
lots
of
you-
had
put
in
tremendous
amounts
of
effort
in
first
in
voter
registration
work
and
then
in
get
out
the
vote
work
and
when
the
election
finally
was
over.
To
the
extent
that
it's
ever
been
over,
people
just
felt
like
I
am
on
top
of
the
pandemic,
I'm
just
out
of
gas
climate
reality
took
note
of
that
at
the
national
level.
They
immediately
rolled
out
a
couple
tool
kits
on
the
hub
and
just
this
past
week.
E
E
E
So,
along
with
with
karen
magruder,
who,
as
all
of
you
know,
I
think,
teaches
social
work
at
the
university
of
texas
in
arlington,
I'm
an
old
psychologist
long
ago
and
and
a
group
of
people
that
we've
just
started
to
assemble
we're
gonna
start
doing
a
regular
series
on
self-care
for
activists
would
love
to
have
others
participating
in
our
group.
We're
up
on
the
website
now
get
in
touch
with
me,
get
in
touch
with
karen
we're
going
to
do
several
things,
but
one
of
them
is
a
very
short
piece
at
the
end
of
the
meetings.
E
Somebody
from
our
group
is
going
to
do
a
little
teaching
a
little
exercise,
a
little
contribution
of
some
kind
aimed
at
self-care
for
all
of
you,
so
one
of
our
new
members,
lynn,
garavaglia,
has
stepped
into
the
breach
with
applause
to
kick
us
off.
I
think,
with
with
my
gratitude,
she's
gonna
say
something
to
us
about
gratitude.
E
A
Okay,
thanks
roger
hi,
guys
I've
gone
over
this
a
thousand
times
in
my
head,
but
I'm
kind
of
nervous.
So
it's
not
specifically
going
to
be
on
gratitude.
That
was
something
I
had
thought
about,
but
I
really
like
how
the
we
started
the
meeting
with
the
that
saying,
and
it
talked
about
connectedness,
so
I'm
just
going
to
share.
A
A
A
C
C
A
A
I
did
attend
that
the
climate
reality
little
seminar
thing
she
did
and
that
doctor
was
talking
a
lot
about
passion
and
I
think
one
way
to
reignite
passion
in
what
we're
doing
is
to
have
this
connection
and
that's
what
was
said
earlier
in
that
saying
is
how
we're
connected
to
everything.
So
the
way
I
try
to
feel
connected
for
me
is
whenever
I
read
something
or
hear
something
that
really
touches
me.
A
You
know
it's
kind
of
a
meditation
on
the
on
the
reading
or
what
I've
heard
and
that
really
fills
me
with
feeling
and
spirit
or
whatever
you
want
to
call
it
that
connects
you
to
make
to
give
you
strength
to.
You
know,
be
connected
to
everything
and
go
on,
because
I
I
really
do
think
that
we
are
connected.
A
I
myself
quote:
I
myself
am
identical
with
nature
and
that
really
struck
me,
because
that
makes
me
feel
like
it's
I'm
one.
In
the
same,
I
would
have
this
on
the
powerpoint,
but
I
can't
get
it.
My
other
one
is
from
one
of
my
favorite
poets.
Maybe
a
lot
of
you
feel
connected
through
reading
poetry
and
my
favorite
poet
ever
is
khalil
gibran,
and
his
saying
that
I
wrote
that
touched
me
was
quote:
trees
are
poems
that
earth
writes
upon
the
sky.
A
Now,
that's
not
the
whole
quote,
because
it
goes
into
something
else,
but
these
are
things
that
help
me
like,
I
said,
feel
connected
and
then
ignite
a
passion.
So
that
was
my
little
presentation,
I'm
so
sorry.
I
can
get
my
signs
up,
so
you
could
have
actually
seen
the
quote.
Wrote
it
down.
Do
I
need
to
say
the
quotes
again
if
anyone
needs
it,
no,
the
last
one,
please
sure.
D
A
D
D
We
have
lots
of
good
entries
on
the
blogs
and
in
fact
karen
did
one
that
has
a
lot
of
great
content
on
taking
care
of
yourself
gives
a
whole
bunch
of
actual
things
to
do
things
to
look
for
so
please
look
at
the
blog
and
give
some
feedback
to
either
you
like
it.
I
want
some
your
own
content
loaded
if
you'll
just
let
me
know
I
usually
put
it
up
within
you
know
within
a
day
or
so.
D
D
Thank
you
so
much
lynn
for
that
very
helpful.
Now
jeff
has
the
last
part
of
the
meeting
before
we
have
closing
a
couple
of
closing
comments.
If
any
from
leah
and
simon
are
our
vice
chairs
jeff,
are
you
going
to
put
the
link
to
the
survey
in
the
chat
box,
we're
going
to
ask
people
to
take
the
survey.
C
D
I
I'm
planning
to
do
that.
So,
first
of
all,
I
just
wanna
give
everyone
a
little
background
about
the
survey,
so
we're
looking
for
members
input
every
year
in
order
to
make
our
chapter
better
and
work
more
efficiently
and,
most
importantly,
we
need
your
input
in
order
to
help
the
chapter
to
growth
and
direct.
You
know,
based
on
how
the
chapter
can
help
each
of
the
members
identify
their
best
interests
in
order
to
be
involved
in
the
chapter
so
consider
last
year's
surveying
success.
D
B
Who's,
a
trained
climate
leader
who
needs
to
log
in
active
leadership.
We
got
up
to
a
total
of
40
participants
today.
So
that's
a
number
you
can
plug
into
your
to
your
active
leadership
and
as
we
as
we
go
to
2021.
I
know
everybody's
really,
dedicated
and
and
trying
to
get
despite
one
and
and
it
can
be
difficult
if
anybody
has
an
idea
and
they're
they're.