►
From YouTube: Panel Discussion: WebAssemb...Moderated by Bailey Hayes, Renee Shah, Alex Williams, & Michael Azoff
Description
Don’t miss out! Join us at our upcoming event: KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2023 in Amsterdam, The Netherlands from April 17-21. Learn more at https://kubecon.io. The conference features presentations from developers and end users of Kubernetes, Prometheus, Envoy, and all of the other CNCF-hosted projects.
Panel Discussion: WebAssembly - Outside In - Moderated by Bailey Hayes, Cosmonic; Renee Shah, Amplify, Alex Williams, Newstack & Michael Azoff, Omdia
WebAssembly has emerged as one of the hottest trends of 2022 and is seeing rapid adoption across open source, industry, and the emerging startup ecosystem. In this panel we invite three outside perspectives - venture capital, media, and industry analysts to share their insights and perspectives about WebAssembly. Is Wasm all hype or the next big thing in tech - you won’t want to miss this panel!
A
First
hear
about
webassembly
personally
I,
you
know,
I
started
kind
of
in
the
early
days
with
Adam
JS
I
actually
came
from
the
website
of
the
world
right
and
I
wanted
to
create
a
data,
visualization
library
that
ran
really
well
on
the
web.
Taking
stuff
that
was
running
and
many
other
portable
devices
and
kind
of
was
part
of
the
portability
story.
But
I'm
super
interested
in
you
because
you
guys
have
been
following
tech
for
a
really
long
time.
I
want
to
start
with
Renee
sure.
B
Yeah
I
was
actually
probably
a
little
later
in
the
game,
but
it
was
actually
Solomon's
tweet,
which
is
you
know
the
now
famous
tweet,
and
basically
he
was
saying
something
like
you
know:
Docker
wouldn't
have
existed,
and
so
obviously,
from
an
Investor's
point
of
view,
if
the
founder
of
Docker
is
comparing
a
new
technology
to
Docker
and
saying
it
could
be
equally
big,
it
was
something
I
knew.
We
had
to
understand
really
deeply
so.
A
B
C
Sure
so
I
Heard
the
term
but
I
didn't
really
sort
of
dig
into
it
until
I
share
the
cab
with
the
VC
at
kubecon
in
Valencia,
and
that's
no
way
so.
That's
really
quite
late
to
the
scene,
but
I
yeah
from
digging
in
further
I
was
really
impressed
and
I
realized
I
really
had
to
to
see
what's
happening
because
this
was
really
hot.
So
that's
really
what
it
really
took
off
for
me.
I
have
to
say.
C
C
D
A
D
A
B
Yeah
and
I
can
just
answer
the
the
docker
question
too
I'm
not
sure
I
have
answer,
but
one
thing
that
we
spent
a
lot
of
time
looking
at
was,
could
webassembly
be
the
next
primitive
meeting.
Could
it
be
really
similar
to
containers
and
we
saw
a
few
similarities.
I'd
say
one
container
succeeded
because
of
the
microservices
shift,
so
we
look
for
big
platform
shifts
and
what
we
saw
happening
alongside
with
webassembly
is
the
shift
to
Edge
Computing,
so
whether
that's
iot
or
things
like
cloudflare
and
fastly.
B
So
we
saw
this
new
shift,
and
so
we
thought
okay,
there's
this
new
re-platforming
happening.
Certainly
it
won't
be
as
big
as
the
cloud,
but
we
do
believe
things
are
shifting
to
the
edge
and
so
webassembly
could
be
a
core,
primitive
I.
Think
containers
and
Docker
also
had
a
lot
of
big
companies
backing
them.
I'd
say
you
know
not
exactly
Docker,
but
Google
was
pushing
kubernetes
and
I.
Think.
Similarly,
wasm
has
a
lot
of
big
companies
that
are
really
interested
in
it
with
the
bytecode
alliance
and
I
think.
B
Sometimes,
if
they're
just
enough
smart
people
who
really
care
about
a
technology,
it
tends
to
succeed
and
then
the
third
thing
is
I,
just
don't
think
it's
always
either
or
like
and
I
think
Matt
butcher
had
said
this
to
me.
But
when
containers
were
coming
out,
people
thought
VMS
were
dead
and
that
it
was
an
either
or,
and
that
didn't
happen.
In
fact
both
became
bigger
and
so
we're
expecting
something
similar
here
where
wasm
will
be
one
primitive.
B
C
Michael
right
so
I've
been
covering
the
application
development
space
since
2003
and
I've
seen
a
lot
of
waves
in
technology,
there's
bound
to
be
a
certain
amount
of
hype
with
wasm,
but
the
the
real
Crunch
and,
as
Shireen
just
said,
you
know,
does
it
fill
a
gap
and
if,
if
it
fulfills
that
need,
then
it
will
go
beyond
the
hype.
So
it
was
interesting
to
talk
to
Adobe
when
flash
was
killed.
C
If
you
guys
remember
the
days
of
Flash
and
it
was
very
common,
but
it
also
had
its
issues
every
day
you
had
to
do
an
update
because
of
security
and
then
Adobe
killed
flash,
but
the
day
they
killed
it.
They
started
to
look
at
what's
going
to
come
next
and
they
had
these
conversations
with
Mozilla
and
they
and
that
led
to
to
wasm
so
wasn't
fills
a
lot
of
needs.
From
my
perspective,
I
see
that
it
it
is
going
to
to
go
beyond
the
hype
so
that,
in
a
nutshell,.
D
I'm
working
on
a
story
on
programming
languages
and
how
they're
shaping
wasm
development
and
one
of
the
themes
you
hear
about
and
I
think
it
was
actually
one
of
the
first
things
I
heard
today.
I
think
was
actually
in
in
the
in
the
keynote
in
the
initial
statements
about
how
really
it's
with
the
programming
language
development
you'll,
see
more
people
in
the
ecosystem
and
you'll
see
more
people
developing
on
you
know
with
waza.
D
That
being
said,
I'm
quite
skeptical
of
this
interchangeability
thing,
I,
don't
really
think.
That's
it
I
I'm
starting
to
wonder
if
webassembly
is
going
to
be
something
like
RSS,
where
RSS
is
a
fundamental
technology
for
the
web,
it
really
did
Usher
in
our
thoughts
and
perspectives
about
Pub
sub
syndication
ushered
in
kind
of
some
of
the
initial
concept,
conceptual
Frameworks
around
social
networks.
D
It
really
did
have
an
impact,
but
when
people
try
to
make
it
into
a
product,
it
didn't
work,
you
could
develop
news
readers
with
RSS,
but
that
was
the
newsread.
It
wasn't
necessarily
webassembly.
So
the
way
that
I
am
starting
to
see
webassembly
and
I
and
I'm
going
to
be
just
watching
it
closely.
To
see
this
is,
does
webassembly
just
help
bring
shape
to
larger
matters
of
interest
to
people
so
does
it
take?
Does
it
provide
shape
for
edge-based
architectures?
D
C
C
Add
some
just
now
catching
up
with
clown
native
and
with
the
new
products
like
Liberty,
that's
open
source
and
is
making
Java
a
lot
faster
and
able
to
be
used
in
the
cloud
native
context.
They've
only
just
now,
caught
up
and
now
suddenly,
there's
webassembly-
and
you
know
rust
is-
is
one
of
the
foremost
languages
for
for
webassembly.
C
C
It
needs
to
address
Java
because
of
that
massive
Legacy
and
I'd
love
to
see
end-to-end,
wasm
and
yeah.
It's
really
exciting.
That's
the
other
thing
is
talking
to
people
they're
moving
away
from
cloud
native
because
they
see
that
it's
done
now,
and
it's
only
now,
you
know
what's
happening
in
the
kubecon
world
is,
is
just
filling
in
the
details
and
the
Really
bleeding
edge.
Work
is
being
done
in
webassembly
and
people
are
moving
from
cloud
native
to
wasm
because
they
want
to
be
at
that
Forefront.
A
So
I
want
to
give
a
shout
out
to
Joel
dice
who
showed
off
his
work
with
Java
and
webassembly
earlier
today
and
then
in
Luke
Wagner's
keynote.
He
he
talked
about.
Basically
this
flywheel,
where
once
we
start
having
programming
languages
and
tools
and
real
applications
that
are
doing
this
end-to-end
work,
we're
going
to
just
keep
seeing
this
iteration
go
and,
in
your
words,
take
over
the
world
which
I
loved
Alex.
It
looked
like
you
wanted
to
jump
in
there.
D
D
D
D
C
D
C
Yeah
I
mean
the
end-to-end
bit
really
mattered,
because
people
were
coming
to
us
and
asking
us
what
do
we
build
on
the
interface
because
that
whole
interface
world
just
fragmented
and
it
was
really
difficult?
You
had
all
these
different
footprints
for
your
desktop,
your
laptop,
your
tablets,
your
mobile,
especially,
and
then
that
gave
the
opportunity
for
this.
You
know
the
the
w3c
standards
and
JavaScript,
but
it
really
fragmented
the
world
and
and
people
really
wanted
one
platform
to
do.
C
A
This
is
a
great
point
to
jump
in
and
because
one
of
the
we've
been
asking
for
questions
all
day
and-
and
we
got
one
from
Mikhail-
which
is
very
relevant
to
this.
This
topic,
which
is
you
know
what
are
some
good
initiatives
that
we
should
be
doing
in
the
webassembly
ecosystem,
like
what
do
we
need
to
take
on
to
improve
awareness
about
webassembly
among
developers?
You
know
all
three
of
you
have
been
following
tech
for
so
long.
What
do
we
need
to
do,
especially?
Maybe
what
could
we
do
differently?
B
Think
right
now-
and
this
is
a
really
common
question-
I
get
is
webassembly,
seems
cool,
but
what
pain
points
does
it
solve?
Does
it
solve
things
that
are
incremental,
or
is
this
really
going
to
change
the
world?
And
so
even
if
somebody
did
like
a
map
of
these
are
the
10
best
categories,
and
these
are
the
10
pain
points
that
webassembly
could
solve.
I
think
it
would
make
it
a
lot
more
palatable
for
the
developer
community
at
Large.
C
So
when
Lynn
Clark,
who
works
for
Mozilla,
she
wrote
a
really
good
article
in
2018
about
how
web
assembly
at
that
point
in
time,
was
an
MVP
and
what
it
needed
to
do
we're
now
2022,
and
that
that's
that
momentum
is
being
taken
up
by
the
wasm
community
with
companies
like
cosmonic
and
others,
and
really
building
out
that
ecosystem.
That's
absolutely
necessary.
Quasim
is
going
to
be
a
success,
so
I
think
you
just
need
to
continue
that
momentum.
C
I
think
when
the
big
players
in
the
industry
you've
got
you
had
Docker
on
the
stage
today,
I
mentioned
Adobe
when
these
big
players
start
to
become
part
of
the
wisen
community.
I
think
that'll
just
increase
the
momentum
and
when
those
players
engage
you're
going
to
get
a
growth
of
the
community,
I
remember
going
to
cubecon
the
first
kubecon
meeting
had
about
300
people.
Now
it's
what
twelve
thousand
here
is
wasm
day
about
100
people
yeah.
We
we'll
see
what
happens.
Yeah
I
wish
I
wish
it
success
really
we'll.
A
D
A
D
I
used
Twitter
quite
a
bit:
I
have
a
used.
Tweet
deck
and
I
have
and
I
have
a
keyword
there
for
webassembly
I'll
interchange
you
with
wasm
I'll,
look
for
the
people,
then,
who
are
you
know,
mentioned
I'll?
Look
those
people
up,
I'll,
add
them
to
my
web
assembly
list
of
people
that
I
follow
on
Twitter.
It's
actually
a
list.
D
I
keep
for
myself,
so
the
those
are
some
of
the
ways
I'm
looking
at
it,
and
so
I've
been
able
to
discover
you
know
and
to
find
people
who
are
doing
interesting
things,
and
so
that's
how
I'm
trying
to
keep
keep
up
with
it.
For
me,
it's
writing.
You
know
as
well,
like
you
know,
if
that
helps
me
just
understand
it
better.
D
You
know
I
think
one
of
the
things
that
we
we
really
could
there's
a
few
things
I
think
about
kind
of
based
on
your
your
other
question
too,
like
what's
the
open
source
governance
right
now
for
for
wasm.
How
is
that
developing
and
what
have
we
learned
from
other
open
source
projects
out
there
that
can
get
either
balkanized
or
even
with
big
companies?
They
start
to
reflect
more.
The
come
interest
of
those
larger
institutions
right,
so
that's
in
one
thing,
I'm
thinking
about
is
what
what
about
the
education?
D
You
know,
how
well
educated,
are
how
how
good
a
job
are.
We
doing
educating
people
to
help,
explain
these
topics
like
it's
only
through
like
Psy
conversations
can
I
understand
what
wits
is
and
how
it
relates
to
world
and
how
that
relates
to
component
models
right
and
how
component
models
relate
to
Wazi
and
how
Wazi
relates
to
webassembly
right.
It's
like
those
kinds
of
things,
I
think
are
going
to
be
really
important
for
people
to
understand.
Just
those
basic
fundamentals.
D
I
also
think
it's
important
not
to
get
you
know,
and
this
is
hard
to
do
because
excitement
just
is
captivating
to
people
and
like
getting
really
excited
about
something.
There's
nothing
more
fun
about
it
and
I
haven't
felt
this
kind
of
like
energy
for
me
since
2014
and
when
the
containers
were
really
kind
of
like
shaving,
how
we
felt
about
the
new
stack
so
but
I'm
I'm
also
being
wary
because
I
know
I,
remember
things
back,
then
that
happened
and
they
could
and
I'm
sure
they'll
happen
again.
But
it's
just
to
what
degree.
B
It's
a
good
question,
I'm
thinking
about
it
out
loud
there's,
not
a
lot.
That
I
mean
there's
small
differences,
I'd
say,
but
nothing
is
Major.
I
think
the
biggest
thing
we
saw
in
2014
that
was
spitting
out.
A
lot
of
the
great
technology,
including
containers,
was
stuff
started
at
big
companies.
So
we
actually
track
internal
tooling
very
closely
and
for
like
the
first
set
of
companies
was
Google
and
Facebook
and
Google
made
kubernetes,
and
then
those
projects
started
to
spin
out
and
they
became
mainstream.
B
C
Yes,
so
sort
of
joining
this
question
and
and
the
last
one
I
actually
had
this
conversation
with
kubecon
about.
You
know
the
that
huge
landscape
growth
in
trying
to
navigate
that
and
they
said
to
me
look
we
are
a
maintainers
conference,
we're
not
here
for
the
Enterprise
we're
not
here
to
hold
their
hands.
There
is
a
certain
element
of
navigation,
and
but
the
emphasis
is
that
it's
an
event
for
maintainers
and
in
a
way
that
gives
us,
as
as
an
analyst
firm,
an
opportunity
because
that's
you
know
that's
what
we
do.
C
If
this
event
wasn't
day
is
going
to
be,
is
it
about
the
community
and
getting
them
together,
which
is
really
important,
but
do
you
also
want
to
help
the
Enterprises?
Do
you
want
to
have
an
an
Enterprise
track?
A
lot
of
conference
conferences
do
have
that
they
have
an
executive
track
for
and
I
think
actually
now,
coupon
does
does
have
that
an
executive
track
for
Enterprises.
C
So
you
know
that's
something
you
need
to
think
about,
but
yeah
at
this
sort
of
you
know
Cooperative
stage
where
rival
companies
are
getting
together
to
build
the
foundation.
I
think
it's
it's
there's
a
very
good,
Ambiance
and
I.
Think
it's
great
that
you
have
these
companies.
You
know
work
together
so
that
that's
a
good
field.
C
A
B
C
A
B
B
So
maybe
this
is
like
a
little
bit
Machiavellian,
but
if
webassembly
really
takes
off
and
the
language
doesn't
compile
duasm
easily,
maybe
that
language
will
slightly
decline
over
time
and
those
that
Duke
of
Alto
wasm
will
be
more
successful,
and
you
know
we're
very
excited
about
Ross,
Ben
Zig
and
some
of
the
other
ones.
Michael.
C
Yeah
absolutely
I
mean
I,
think
it's
up
to
the
the
language
communities
they
want
to
see
their
language
grow
and
webassembly
is
where
they
need
to
work
with.
So
they
need
to
put
that
effort
in-
and
you
know,
Java
is
the
case
in
point
and
I'm
not
seeing
I
mean,
unfortunately,
I
missed
the
keynote
this
morning,
so
but
I'm
not
seeing
a
huge
amount
with
Java
at
the
moment
there
is
I,
know,
there's
work
being
done,
but
I
think
they're
a
little
bit
behind
the
curve
and
they
really
need
to.
C
You
know
to
keep
Pace
because
they'll
suffer
and
and
it
people
have
talked
about
the
death
of
java
so
many
times
and
I
always
preclude
it.
Because
Java,
as
you
just
said,
Alex
Java
is
a
is
a
platform.
It's
not
just
a
language,
and
it
does
so
many
things.
But
you
know:
there's
gonna
be
a
pivot
point
when
another
language
takes
over
and
if
Java
doesn't
catch
up
with
webassembly,
it
could
be
another
language
like
grass
that
begins
to
to
grow
bigger,
so
yeah.
D
D
Well,
Wasserman
unicrows
remind
me
of
micro
virtualization,
which
again
speaks
to
those
units
of
efficiency.
So
the
question
is:
what
are
these
programming
languages?
How
are
these
program
languages
going
to
be
adapt
to
those
units
of
efficiency,
right
and
so
and
so
like
go,
is
a
great
program,
language
for
the
container
ecosystem
and
worked
well
with
you
know,
with
containers
now
how
we
seeing
go
kind
of
emerge
where
we
see
tiny
go,
but
it's
not.
You
know,
there's
no
kind
of
main.
D
You
know
way
you
know,
but
that's
just
that's
a
little
bit
different
right
than
than
than
just
leveraging
go
itself,
so
so
Mike.
So
my
so
that's
going
to
be
my.
My
question
is:
like
I
said:
you're
gonna,
you
know,
are
we
gonna
start
to
see
program
programming
languages
emerge
for
webassembly
right
and
how
those
existing
programming
languages
continue
to.
You
know,
maintain
and
grow
and
those
those
kind
of
the
factors
that
I
look
at
I'm.
A
D
D
I've
heard
that
cited
as
an
interesting
kind
of
factor
is
the
is
the
actor
model
and
how
important
that
could
possibly
be
I
mean
erlang
is
an
actor
model
correct
and
so,
but
there's
also
Blazer
and
python
shows
some
of
the
biggest
gains
you
know
last
year.
So
we're
seeing
a
lot
of
you
know
that.
There's
no
question
to
me
that
the
ecosystem
story
is
building
and
programming
languages
about
webassembly,
no.
C
Question
yeah
actually
I'm
glad
you
mentioned
python,
because
when
Ai
and
data
science
grew
and
Java
wasn't
really
the
appropriate
language,
it
gave
an
opportunity
to
Python
and
python
just
to
golf.
But
as
you
all
know,
python
is
not
a
very
performant
language
and
then
you
see
others
like
Julia,
but
it
it's
it's
still
a
fairly
minority,
Sport
and
I.
Just
wonder
if
wasm
can
address
Ai
and
data
science
that
that
would
be
really
interesting.
D
A
And
I
mean
also
shout
out
to
the
earlier
talk
today
that
Carl
gave
where
he's
running.
You
know
simple
AI
but
AI
running
inside
the
database,
so
you
can
do
real-time
analytics.
Imagine
real-time
Ai
and
data
science
and
all
those
different
things.
Python
comes
online.
Then
you've
got
webassembly
there
running
across
the
entire
ecosystem
and
stack,
which
is
I.
D
They
really
embraced
it
and
they
really
and
basically
you
know
Solomon
would
say
you
know,
hey
we're
just
you
know,
you
know
we're
just
trying
to
make
the
internet
more
usable
I
mean
that
was
kind
of
like
the
the
Big
Goal
there
and
I
mean
if
that
could
be
like
a
dream
and
kind
of
a
passion
for
the
web
assembly.
Community
that'd,
be
great,
I.
Think
that's
kind
of
like
when
you
hear
someone.
Can
you
hear
people
talk
about?
You
know
the
interchangeability
to
be
able
to
use.
D
You
know
multiple
program,
programming
languages,
that's
a
dream
of
a
developer
experience
and
but
there's
a
lot
of
skepticism
about
it,
because
we've
seen
it
before,
but
Docker
help
I.
Think.
If
anything
Dockers
show
that
we
can
have
that
great
developer
experience,
you
know
it
didn't
I
I,
don't
think
it
translated
to
kubernetes.
But
you
know
that's
another
story
entirely.
C
So
you
mentioned
how
there's
the
Nicos
an
ecosystem
and
the
right
tool
for
the
right
job
and
I'm
trying
to
get
my
head
around
wasm
and
container
because
people
a
lot
of
people
talk
about
wasm
versus
containers.
But
it's
really
coming
to
that
point
where
you
have
to
choose
the
right
tool
for
the
job
and
if
it
makes
sense
to
run
wasm
in
a
container,
then
that's
the
right
thing
to
do
so.
You
need
that
capability
to
give
you
that
choice.
D
That's
really
right,
but
but
on
on
the
counter
to
that
fastly
in
other
companies,
they're
not
running
containers
on
the
edge
right,
they're
running
wild
yeah
right,
and
that
gives
the
shape
then
to
a
whole
different
kind
of
perspective
about
Cloud
Services.
Overall,
you
must
you
must
be
loving
this.
B
B
Are
you
going
to
share
the
secret
sauce?
No
I
write
about
this
on
Twitter?
Actually,
The
Limited,
limiting
factor
right
now
for
webassembly
companies
and
startups
is
people
who
want
to
go
start.
Webassembly
companies,
there's
no
shortage
of
ideas,
and
so
the
two
places
I'm
most
keen
on
making
a
new
web
assembly
investment
and
I
hope.
Everyone
here
will
take
notes
because
it's
probably
going
to
be
started
by
one
of
you
is
actually
one
is
just
on
the
client
side
piece.
B
So
I
actually
think
server
side
has
gotten
a
lot
of
attention
and
that's
great
and
historically,
budgets
are
on
the
server,
but
we
haven't
seen
as
many
client-side
startups
and
it's
still
non-trivial
for
developers
to
build
a
figma
like
app
in
the
browser,
and
so
if
there
were
some
easy
framework
to
do
that,
I
would
certainly
be
very
interested.
And
then
the
second
piece
in
balius
is
related
to
your
work.
At
single
store
actually
is
just
in
the
database.
So
that's
both
on
the
server
side
and
on
the
client
side.
B
That
can
make
much
more
sophisticated
applications
in
the
front
end
and
then
also
things
like
duckdb,
which
are
olap
databases,
but
still,
you
know,
can
be
run
in
the
browser
and
then
obviously
the
server
side
stuff
has
been
talked
about
a
lot
today,
but
a
database
that
is
sort
of
redone
with
wasm
in
mind,
and
maybe
that's
Transformations
built
in
or
machine
learning,
but
basically
was
a
modules
literally
running
inside
of
the
database
and
just
thinking
through
what
pain
points
that
could
solve.
So
those
are.
Those
are
the
two
areas
that
I'm
currently
most
excited.
C
A
Hope
for
that
is,
but
so
what
I've
heard
now
is
that
webassembly
is
likely
to
influence
new
programming
languages,
that
Target
directly
and
new
databases.
I
I
find
that
extremely
exciting
idea,
so
kind
of
a
Different
Twist
on
on
the
question
that
you're
just
prompted
with
which
lines
up
with
another
one
that
we've
gotten
for
our
audience
is
that
with
the
Investments
which
have
been
made
in
container-centric
systems
over
the
years.
A
B
C
Well,
hell
I
mean
you've
got
microservices,
that's
the
cloud
native
Paradigm
right,
so
that's
really
taking
over
and
that's
going
to
be
the
dominant
Paradigm,
so
wasm
is
always
going
to
be
a
little
bit
behind
that
Cloud
native
is
just
sort
of
taking
over
that
monolithic
Legacy.
So
we're
going
to
see
that
growth
in
Cloud
native
that
you
know
that's
just
going
to
happen
and
so
yeah
you
need
to
be
able
to
compete
with
that
World
and
just
make
it.
You
know
born
on
the
cloud.
C
Companies
invented
that
Paradigm
before
people
started
using
the
terminology
of
microservices
it's
on
Netflix
Twitter.
You
know
all
of
those
Cloud
companies.
They
created
that
technology.
They
open
sourced
it
and
you're
going
to
need
to
compete
with
that.
But
do
you
need
to
this
is
what
we
we
said
at
the
beginning,
that
it's
an
ecosystem
and
it's
the
right
tool
for
the
right
job
and
wasm
has
so
much
going
for
it
in
terms
of
performance
in
being
able
to
be
used
on
the
edge
on
the
server
on
the
client
side.
C
So
yeah
I,
let
it's
it's
watch
this
space.
If,
if
you
get
that
end
to
end
I,
think
you'll
get
a
lot
of
developers
moving
to
tourism,
simply
because
you'll
be
able
to
provide
that
abstraction
and
we'll
we'll
you're
going
to
reinvent
what
made
Java
applets
in
their
days
and
Visual
Basic
so
attractive,
and
it
was
a
huge
you
know
it
had
its
day
and
you'll.
Get
that
mind
share
so
that
the
opportunities
are
out
there.
You
just
have
to
have
the
right.
The
right
pieces
in
place,
so
I
hope
it'll
happen.
C
A
B
I
I
think
that
I
mean
we
heard
a
lot
about
the
component
model
this
morning
and
obviously
that's
a
big
one
that
the
wasm
ecosystem
is
looking
forward
to,
but
I
think
to
really
compete
with
Docker.
The
developer
tool
chain
hasn't
been
done,
so
it's
not
just
about
the
docker
container
itself.
It's
observability
and
there
are
container-centric
observability
companies,
it's
CI,
CD,
it's
build
tooling
and
there's
this
whole
ecosystem.
That
makes
using
containers
very
easy
and
I,
don't
think
they're
necessarily
equivalents
yet
for
the
Walzem
Community.
B
Certainly
you
can
use
some
of
the
existing
tool
set
for
wasm
I.
Don't
it's
not
going
to
be
totally
new,
but
generally,
when
we
see
these
Paradigm
shifts
and
I'd
say,
wasm
is
one.
There
is
a
new
tool
chain,
that's
built
just
for
that
I'd
say:
orchestration
is
another
one
that
I
think
could
be
big
for
webassembly
and
so
I
think.
Once
those
things
come
into
place,
we'll
see
a
much
greater
proliferation
of
webassembly.
D
D
Even
a
few
hundred
lines
of
simple
business
logic
must
be
compiled
and
then
packaged
into
a
container
and
then
scheduled
on
kubernetes,
and
so
that's
a
you
know
that
that's
definitely
a
factor
there
that
that
scheduling
and
it
speaks
to
the
the
strength
of
nomad.
In
addition,
but
you
know
it's
hard
to
kind
of
talk
about
the
the
you
know:
who's
gonna
win
the
war
because
there
is
no
war.
D
You
know,
there's
there's
a
there's,
this
perception
of
of
of
this
conflict
and
it's
you
know
you
might
see
it
as
very
real,
but
in
another
dimension
you
could
say
that
there
that
that
could
that
Docker
and
the
container
Community
have
done
a
fantastic
job
of
establishing
this
of
the
open
source
standards.
Container
d
oci
right
those
are
here
to
stay
and
you're,
not
gonna
and
they're.
Gonna,
then
they're
gonna,
be
still
remain
very,
very
important.
D
So
that's
you
know,
but
if
you
look
at
the
lightweight
capabilities
and
just
the
cost
of
setting
up
kubernetes,
how
much
does
it
cost
to
set
up
a
you
know
a
kubernetes
cluster
I
mean
every
it's
like.
Basically,
a
network
of
servers
right.
You
know
how
much
does
each
server
cost
to
set
up
a
thousand
bucks
or
something
like
that
and
you
have
to
keep
those.
Do
you
have
to
keep
those
servers
running
all
the
time?
Well,
pretty
much
right
at
least
some
of
them.
You
can't
turn
the
container.
D
A
C
A
Yes,
no,
it's
not
talking
about
other
types
of
competition.
There
are
also
micro,
VMS,
you
know
they.
They
are
other
things
that,
let
you
you
know
run
small,
let's
say
is
the
goal,
because
we
can
write
software
all
day.
We
can
talk
about
really
cool
academic
things
that
we
find
really
interesting
and
exciting,
and
it
has
to
solve
problems
to
be
real,
but
it
also
has
to
take
into
account
cost
and
cost
is
something
that
we
don't
often
talk
about,
but
Micro
VMS
is
one
of
those
that
helps
solve
the
cost
Vector.
A
B
B
B
Much
more
funding,
much
more
mind
share
that
I
actually
haven't
seen
as
much
competition
from
the
micro
VM
Community,
yet
very
interesting,
I
mean
outside
of
the
firecracker
folks,
who
are
all
fabulous,
I,
actually
can't
think
of
a
really
large
project
that
is
sort
of
thinking
about
micro,
VMS,
obviously,
firecracker
Powers
a
lot
of
stuff
but
I
and
for
webassembly.
That's
just
not
true,
and
so
it
already
seems
like
webassembly
is
the
front
runner.
But
a
lot
of
people
are
very
excited
about
micro,
VMS
and
I
know.
D
D
D
A
Yeah,
an
open
standard
is
really
like
a
contract
between
all
the
players
to
play
along
right
and
and
once
we
have
that
base,
we
can
build
so
many
incredible
things.
On
top
of
it
and
building
the
base
is
slow,
but
I
think
it's
it's
so
so
necessary
to
be
successful.
So
that
is
one
key
difference:
I'm
kind
of
curious
Renee.
B
I
mean
we're
in
the
business
of
massive,
albeit
potentially,
binary
outcomes,
and
so
we
are
basically
excited
about
things
that
could
be.
You
know
four
billion
dollar
businesses
or
potentially
less,
but
the
upside
is
really
what
gets
us
exciting
and
I.
Don't
think,
we've
seen
a
new
primitive
since
containers
that
has
been
as
exciting
as
webassembly
or
has
the
potential
to
be
as
massive
and
I
think
that
is
just
how
technology
typically
goes.
B
This
really
could
be
it,
so
it
is
for
me
really
about
a
trend
and
a
new
way
of
working.
That's
driven
by
Edge
Computing,
iot
compute,
much
closer
to
the
user
data
everywhere.
That's
where
I
feel
like
the
market
is
going
and
webassembly
is
squarely
in
the
middle
of
that,
and
that
to
me
feels
that
that's
what's
driving
this
massive
wave.
B
A
D
That
I
think
that's
right
on
I.
Think
what
what
you
know.
What
Renee
is
talking
about
to
me
is
like
that
shape
that
you
know
that
that
I,
you
know
that
I
was
talking
about
earlier.
You
know,
I
can
see
a
shape
Now
with
with
webassembly
kind
of
in
you
know,
in
terms
of
like
Edge
architectures
right
more
so.
D
D
C
D
C
A
C
Right
now,
I'm
writing
a
serverless.
We
have
our
equivalent
of
the
magic
quadrant.
We
have
the
omdia
universe.
I'm
writing
one
now
on
the
serverless
services
and
cosmonic
is
in
that,
because
you
have
a
serverless
solution,
so
yeah
watch
this
space,
we'll
we'll
I'm
looking
very
eagerly
to
see
another
opportunity
to
cover.
Was
it
absolutely
okay.