Cloud Native Computing Foundation Contributor Strategy Special Interest Group, 11 Nov 2020

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From YouTube: CNCF SIG Contributor Strategy Contributor Growth WG 2020-11-11

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CNCF SIG Contributor Strategy Contributor Growth WG 2020-11-11

A

B

How's your week been.

C

My weekend went well, I'm ready for the next weekend.

A

You and me both funny how that works out. Isn't it yeah it's tuesday, but I want to be done.

B

Yeah, fortunately, we get uh we're one of those companies that gets veterans day off, which is tomorrow. Oh.

C

You know that's nice.

B

Yeah yeah, I think it's because our ceo grew up in a government or military family, or something like that so anyway, it was a pleasant surprise to see that on the calendar.

C

If I had a company, I would give people all the holidays off.

B

I'm coming to work for you, yeah.

D

Hi carol nice to meet you hey.

C

How are you doing.

D

Good thanks, how are you oh, I'm good, we're.

C

Gonna be busy today.

D

Yeah thanks for pointing out like I have to say I'm a little. I don't know if uh charles is also feeling seems a little bit confused because they're like so many subgroups and it's like yeah, like I really wanna, you know I'm sure, there's like an etiquette and how to do stuff, and it's like it was like. Okay, I'm just trying to figure it out. I didn't know so. I was like when I saw this contributive growth working group and then I was like okay. This sounds like the right yeah yeah yeah.

C

We're we're not terribly formal like if you communicate honestly on any of our channels, like you did on the mailing list or whatever like it's a small group. People will find you it's just. We have these working groups so that um people who care about focusing on one topic for an hour every couple weeks can do so and not feel like they're on three meetings a week or anything like that. So, for example, I don't go to the governance meetings unless I'm really keen on something they're talking about.

B

I've just been joining all of them.

C

How many are they way to do it, you'll get a lot of work assigned to.

D

You so, but this seems like the um right group to do so you you heard my pit. Oh you read my pitch and yeah. I think uh charles found the sig. By coincidence, I don't know how like, because we were just talking about like well, we have these challenges and we really want to you know, um create a framework and make it more.

D

You know, because I mean linkardi has been doing a lot of things you know, but it's like not in a strategic way and um yeah, and then he he he found this and was like. Oh my god, this sounds like exactly what we need and then yeah. This is exactly.

C

D

And uh so yeah, it's like, um I think, is any. I think that it was on the agenda, so we don't have anything else so.

A

I just haven't completed.

D

C

um Because I know paris and karen it's if they show up if they don't show up we're, not going to talk about their stuff.

D

But that's very dear to our hearts as well, so yeah.

C

No we're definitely part.

D

Of about yours first, um so how yeah like yeah, if you could just let us know as newbies, uh you know what we would like to do is like how do we make it happen? You said like yes, it is the right um group. uh How do we get it started? What is yeah just like a quick introduction into the sig world for charles and me sure sure.

C

um One pair supplies about a person answered but she's, not on the call yeah she's gonna be a couple minutes late. um So far what our group has been doing is we get together every other week? Oh, we can. Obviously people can get together more if they want to, but that's just kind of our regular recurring, cadence and then put stuff on the agenda. We could spend an entire meeting doing a working meeting where we talked just about, for example, contributed growth strategy framework and being like what do we want in it?

C

Let's open up a document and start collaborating, um and then usually one person uh takes point for getting something uh edited and completely filled out so that we could open up a pull request to our repository. I don't know if you've seen this yet.

C

This is where, uh when we're ready- and we have up like uh the framework- this is where it would go. um I'm working right now on taking what's here and making a website, so people can read it.

D

Yeah I saw like what you shared and it looks great and um in the slack channel. Well, if I could type.

D

Where did I put it.

C

ah There we go yeah yeah, so I'm working on guides right now and essentially what would happen? Is we we collaborate here? You can, uh you know, work on it uh independently. You can engage with people in the community and start filling this out um and then, when you're ready, you'd send a pull request to add essentially like a page for this, but they're just pages in here at the moment. So if we go into contributor growth um at the moment, we use just documents and we're keeping them here.

C

We don't have them on the website yet, but and then it's just markdown and whatever you want to write and the only thing is. We just need to make sure that um as a group as a sig, we all kind of agree on what we're saying um so, usually that's not a problem but yeah.

C

That kind of stuff usually comes out in these meetings, where people in contributor growth or whatever will say like wow, I vehemently disagree or something, um and otherwise the pr is mostly just editing making sure you know.

C

There's no typos. We didn't miss anything that kind of stuff.

D

And how did you listen yeah? uh How do we, because.

D

Like personally, I don't have a lot to contribute in terms of knowledge right, I'm new to this. So my idea was okay like if we have a few people who can just you know like provide feedback, and that's why I was saying like if we could, you know, recruit a small group of people.

D

uh Maybe, like you know seven, I don't know, maybe less it just depends like uh and and have a meeting. We record it like this one, and then I just go and summarize it.

D

I want to make it as easy as possible for the people who have it in their brains, because, like that's my way of contributing right, they they give the knowledge and- and then I could, um um you know, write a draft and then circulate it because I think like we are also working internally and trying to figure it out internally and charles, and I could probably also contribute a little bit.

D

But the idea is like um I mean there are so many people on different companies who have uh have been or and from projects that are more mature. Who know what has worked and what hasn't worked and if we could like compile all that knowledge? You know yeah and have that dynamic discussion.

D

You know because, like we I mean we could come up with ideas and brainstorm, but we haven't really tried it out but like if we can like uh that was kind of my hope to get people to who have had the experience and yeah brainstorm and and capture that knowledge in a document that everyone can then benefit from and like. How does that recruitment um part, and do you think I mean? Is there an appetite at all? Do you think like do people, because it is a big group but yeah?

D

The question: is it's very easy to be on the mailing list right, it's another thing to actually be part of yeah.

C

I would suggest that um so one I have no problems with anything you're saying I'm just thinking about how we can make it happen.

C

um I would think first like identify people who we think we'd love to just ask questions to because we're pretty sure they have good answers and then I would make sure that we come together with like come prepared with the questions we want to ask and most people, if you say, can I just get some of your time and maybe it's like 30 minutes and we ask some very targeted questions and then we handle collating and editing and bringing it together. I think people will be willing uh minus holidays vacation and the election.

C

It's you know like yeah, that's a standard like uh thing you have kind of to add everything at the moment, um but I just want to bring that up, because a lot of people are going to be involved with a conference. I think it's next week oh yeah, yeah, yeah and then yeah and then people have thanksgiving and then uh pto, but if we can kind of like work around that or maybe engage with people one-on-one instead of trying to get a big meeting of 10 people, I think that would work pretty well.

D

Yeah yeah, okay, um and would you because you've been a part of this group for a little longer than us uh which isn't difficult longer, but um could you help? I may be like suggesting identifying people that you know that would be uh like you know, um and I don't want to put you in the spot or anything.

D

But I I just don't know who's part of that group and who you think are um you know, are active and uh know a lot that we could ask and we maybe like we don't have to name names while we're recording, but.

C

Offline, I think we can come up with one is projects we think who are doing this well. We may not know the the people particularly, but we may go. We really think envoy, for example, is doing a great job of growing their community and we'd like to talk to someone who has been leading that and reach out to them, and we may not be like.

C

Oh, it's matt klein, okay um or we may just know certain people like paris who like this is what they do, and if we can identify people who are community managers who focus on this stuff, uh we can say we know, we know they do a great job with it and we'll invite them. But I think it helps to talk about projects like other individual projects that you think are doing this well and we'd like to reach out to them.

D

um I think we were trying.

D

We were discussing that last time right um um we were trying to identify projects that are, but then we were talking about ourselves right now, we're talking in general right uh um and one of the feedback was that a lot of people are struggling with the same thing, so that was kind of like the the the aha moment for well I mean probably we should have guessed it right but, like you always think, you're, the only one struggling with those things, but apparently like everyone is going through that uh challenge.

D

I think vitesse josh mentioned them um here. Are you in this document? Could you maybe add some people? uh I think.

C

One or something said: vtex v10 yeah. Let me just where.

D

B

I think vtest used to be a heptio project right, isn't it now like vmware or something tense part of kenzu unless.

A

I'm thinking wrong, one.

B

I think I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

B

Oh okay, I I am wrong. I'm definitely wrong.

C

No, no, that's fine! I just um oh. I didn't pronounce it that way in my head. So would you pronounce it? Maybe I I don't know no! No. I just uh I never said it out loud before you know how that is.

B

Yeah, I think part of the strategy that I'm also part of the strategy that we discussed is looking at other cncf projects to see which are like, roughly at the same level as us, community, wise and seeing what kind of collaboration we can do with them. If it makes sense for two two projects to work together.

B

um But then also, we want to take lessons from some of these projects that are already like envoy, which has a huge community.

D

Yeah, I think what we very beneficial is talking to projects who are a lot more mature and have gone through all the pitfalls. You know and said, like okay, this sounds like a good idea, but much more difficult and just like, so we can, you know, create like based on that, like all the knowledge that they um accumulated over the years then put that into like some guidelines. um So it's a little bit different, different discussion from what we had last time we were talking about like who?

D

Can we compare ourselves now, it's probably more, it's like who are like who's doing it right like when who is who is much farther along and who can share yeah or experience who yeah yeah? Well, that's why I.

C

Put paris on there because her work with kubernetes um qualifies for that.

C

Don't know many projects who have been pretty vocal about saying, they're doing it well, um so I think a lot more people are going to fall into the category of they're trying to work on this right now and that's we want to engage with it may not be less. The same level is more just like whoever's like actively thinking about this.

D

Yeah, it doesn't matter you know like if we get like different people who have tried different things uh together, we can come up, you know with a much better plan right and- and the idea is like you, you put it out there and then over the years. You know we we add more and prove it or like it's just like to get started, and then it should be a living document.

D

At some point, you kind of start, you know updating with new experiences and new things that people have experimented, but instead of that know-how staying within those teams, you know like it should be out there for the community.

C

Yeah, I think that um we should focus on being iterative with this uh just getting as soon as we get like one idea, one tip one piece of advice, one reflection or case study: let's put it up there, um instead of trying to create something in a big bang, so just because I think we're gonna get a trickle of feedback from people over time. I think it may be more of an engagement over a couple months talking to people and getting them when they're available to talk to us.

C

um As I said, for example, I don't expect many people to have time in the next month and a half you know yeah to engage with us, but after the holidays be able to to chat with people and then fill it out more and and refine what we have um you're free to use this meeting this scheduled one to invite people to uh if you, if you don't want to try to set up one-on-one things with people, you can invite them to come to this meeting when they're available.

C

um They may not work for all time zones, so this is ridiculously late for yeah outside the us.

D

Yeah so yeah, so basically, like kind of, I think that the topics that um we had identified as like maine and it's like and that can be like yeah, as you said, it doesn't have to be like the whole thing. But like uh I mean you can only talk about so much in each meeting right, it would be like growing the code contributor base right like what are like strategies like an ideas, yeah that would be one meeting and then the second one, and then this is just again.

D

This is just a suggestion, because I wanted to put something out there and it's totally. I want to hear.

D

Again, recognizing and enabling non-code contributors.

D

Definitely uh that would be another one right and then the other, the third one would be uh recruiting external maintainers course slash core contributors, uh which would be with a particular focus on building the contributor ladder. So that's like we're very much aligned, because I know that's a important thing as well for the graduation and that's something that we are very interested in as well. So it's great that that is a topic that other people put out there. I.

C

Have a question about that last one, just real, quick yeah! I want to make sure I understand what the focus is. Is it trying to increase maintainer diversity? Specifically, yes,.

D

B

C

It just trying to promote existing contributors into the maintainer role, because those are actually two very different things.

D

Well, don't you don't you generally start as a contributor and then you become a maintainer, you don't go right into maintainer.

C

Yes, however, what I'm trying to say is that your funnel of new contributors may not actually count towards your diversity at all um and, if you're trying to find people who are potential maintainers from other companies, that's a completely different ball game of trying to find someone who would basically have somebody who's being paid to work on your project, get them involved with the project. It's it's a different.

C

Sometimes it happens naturally, and they're already attracted your project and you're like I'm a microsoft project, and then someone from vmware like works their way up, just because they're purely interested. But when you're, when that hasn't happened and you're trying to graduate, um I think different strategies are probably in order than just directly encouraging people to move up the ladder, because you may just not have any contributors from another company or who or who isn't uh basically an end user in the community who occasionally contributes and that doesn't.

C

I don't think that counts towards the maintainer diversity.

D

um Well, I guess, then, let's split that up into two right.

B

Yeah- and I think this is part of the iterative process that we've been going through- it's like, we know we want to have a contributor lad, and I know that from one of the other from the meeting last thursday that that's an agenda item for the for the sig as a whole, where we're trying to figure out is what is how many rungs are there there and what is the first rung yeah.

C

B

The next rung- and so that's something I think we we can all totally iterate on. um Oh sorry, I was just going to let you know.

C

That we do have a contributor letter that can.

A

C

Yeah, I don't know it should be able to show up today.

A

It's a hack md. I think.

C

Oh man where'd that go one sec. It's a slack dm.

B

C

Goodness sorry, I didn't mean interrupt. I just think that you'd like to see it.

B

Yeah, no for sure- and I was I was about to transition into a an orthogonal thought so that that's okay.

C

There we go just so you can see what we've been collaborating on so far in this working group, um if you're interested in just kind of seeing what we've got or any comments, we're actively looking for feedback on this right now,.

B

Okay, I don't think I've seen this one. This looks.

C

It's brand new, you haven't seen it okay.

B

Let me bookmark it.

A

Reviewer, okay, yeah.

B

I mean this all makes just reading this ladder here totally makes sense to me um right now. We basically have like community member and contributor and reviewer are all one. Maintainer is its own thing: project lead and community maintainer. We we haven't defined um like I think the roles are defined here. We haven't defined what that means within the context of our project and especially when it comes to something like project manager.

B

We've we've been taking all that on ourselves and yeah. It's a much bigger conversation within the team to understand uh if we are, if what it looks like for an external project or not external, but you know a project manager, release manager, but this ladder totally makes sense to me.

C

Yeah yeah one thing: oh sorry, I just want to call it.

C

One thing is that um we don't really expect unless you're in a very large project to have these be different people we're outlining roles, excuse me roles and for a small project, you're, probably doing all of them, if you're a maintainer right, but we wanted to articulate what the roles were and and allow people to kind of think about when they're thinking about their own project, like just naming it the role, acknowledging the work, understanding, uh any responsibilities or anything you're accountable for or understanding when the role isn't actually being satisfied appropriately.

C

So you know maybe to look for someone to help meet that role and like fill it so you're, not alone like no one has individuals for all of these, but um these are all things that usually a maintainer is overloaded and trying to do so.

B

Yeah, that's totally in line with what we're doing right now. 100.

C

B

So uh the thought that I had a minute ago uh was a conversation that were, among the conversations we've been having internally catherine's, been working uh really hard on. You know the what our um growth strategy looks like how we get folks into the community, how we recognize the work that they're doing.

B

My approach has been more on the technical side and one of the first things that I want to do, and I think the timing might be actually really great for this. I want to as part of the framework, I would like to have a template for projects to have a hello world right, and this is uh the idea is here, is a uh like: a code, insiders or sorry, a vs code file or a an intellij file to get your project like set up.

B

Follow these steps to modify the code and print hello world and then now you're ready to begin developing.

B

C

You help me understand, queen back up just one second yeah, um who, who do you expect to be using this template? It was the target audience for this. This is to get someone into.

B

Your project or starting a new project, so the template would be the pro would be used by the project. People right because uh tool chains are complex and build pipelines are difficult, and so um what it would be is even if it's a really simple framework of you know if you use, go you're going to need these libraries or if you use javascript you're, going to need these libraries, so it's really uh the on-ramp or the onboarding process for somebody who's.

B

Like I'm curious about this project, it appears to solve a problem that I have and um I I need to know more about it, and so the goal would be like you clone the repository. You open the workspace file, you edit some code, and you see those changes straight away and again that that's like the the structure of it, um and so that would be the the baseline for the template that each project uses so, for example, v tests. Maybe they they're getting.

B

They want to onboard somebody quickly, I'm not sure what language they're using, but they can give you a template file that you are sorry, not a template file.

B

Let me let me separate the two, so the template is for the framework, the um what's what's a good name for it, just like a like a mini project, so you would do a mini project and that would be the fully filled out template that the project has. So if you test they take the template, they add in the implementation details of their tooling chain or their their build pipeline.

B

So for us we're using rust, which means you need cargo um and the rust sdk installed. You need go installed, and so.

B

The template would be like here are the things that you need to build this project and then the implementation of it for us would be you need, go. You need rust. We use visual studio code. You can open this workspace file and start hacking straight away. Does that make sense separating those two.

C

Questions um just because I'm trying to get everything that I think you have contacts on and I'm missing um so for this project, template and you're, saying like print hello world, um if you have an established code base, are they editing the code base, or is this like a completely separate slimmed down set of code that just mimics the environment, but not the code.

B

So it's basically setting up your developer environment for a specific project right, so the template again would be used by the test. It would be used by envoy.

B

It would be used by us and in that template each project would fill in the details of what it would take for you to go and then enter like you want to print hello world when the application starts up so you're, actually editing the project code and all you're doing is getting it to write a log line so that when that container starts up or whenever the application starts up, you can go and tail the logs and then like here's, okay, you say: okay, now, you're ready, you're.

B

You know that your build environment is working, the same way that everybody else in the project has their environment working and now when, if you have a question or if you have, uh if you file an issue or you file a pull request, you can go back and reference this and say starting from the hello world project. I went and modified this code because I'm trying to do this so that second piece that I just mentioned, I think, is further down the line.

B

The first part would just be like: let's create this template for step, one for onboarding people to the project and again that template would be. These are the tools you need. These are the commands. You need to run to build the project.

B

Maybe here's some yaml to deploy the resources to kubernetes and those would be project specific, but the template would be something that they just go in and fill in quickly.

C

So the template walks a project leader maintainer through thinking about all the things that would need to be given to someone who's a new contributor so that they could modify their code base and see it and run it.

B

You nailed it, that's in fact the next time I try to explain next time. I explain it. I'm going to use those words.

C

Okay, no sorry, I didn't mean to ask so many questions. I just wanted to make sure I got what you were thinking about. I think this is cool. We have a section in the contributing guide right now: okay, where we encourage people to articulate everything we're talking about here, but we don't have anything that walks them through what new people would run into and need to know. You know- and I think that would be very valuable, so it's kind of neat to think about.

B

So that's like, I said, that's kind of more the tech technology like actual getting your hands into the code side. The other part is that catherine has been working on and that we've been working together, but mostly catherine, is again recognizing people.

B

Yeah recognizing contributions, finding people who are already using linker d or using the project. That's funny that you wrote that I was that thought just came to my head. You get an onboarding badge. I like it yeah.

C

B

C

An onboarding project, we'll say or experience, then you can get a little bit. We've been talking about badges as part of our working group. How can we acknowledge that you have open governance that you meet these certain things so that someone looks at your project. They can quickly figure out. Like will someone help me on board? Is this open governance or not or various things yeah? So this would be cool, I'm so sad harrison in here, because she loves badges.

A

C

So you got a bunch of cool stuff here. I just want to confirm that these are things that you would like to lead, or you asking us to take on and then lead.

B

This is this: this template is something that I want to build specifically yeah.

C

Kathleen is that the same for you for the framework.

D

Yeah, so I'm, as I said like, I, just need the input so um yeah, maybe having doing one-on-one um having um brainstorming a few ideas with like four questions with um charles before meeting with people 101 or like yeah, like I'm, I'm willing to adapt to whatever works for the people that have the information and when I share it uh but yeah I'm so I'll.

D

Probably it sounds like it makes most sense to talk to paris first, because she is one of those people.

D

If she's willing to have her, maybe interview her um ask her for advice, and maybe the best approach is like hopping from one to the other right like talking to paris and then ha and like ask all the questions to her and then may I'm sure she knows people that know stuff and she could recommend this and then just hop from one person to the other because, like since I don't know the community of the people, maybe just like starting with one person and then hopping from one to the other, makes sense.

C

No, I think that makes sense. You're, probably gonna, wanna give up as many people up front, because not everyone's gonna be ready to talk to you for the next one, so you can kind of move to whoever's ready.

C

um I would suggest for for the questions that you want to ask for each topic like I wouldn't just ask someone like hey: let's grow a contributor grace right, like just you were saying, work with charles to come up with questions for each meeting like this would probably be a good thing to chat about in one of the sig meetings too, either this one or the general one to um get some more ideas for questions to ask as well. um Okay.

C

So this is what we figured out and we don't realize like three people in that we really want to be asking some other question too. You know.

D

What I mean yeah, it makes sense yeah and I'd rather do it right and even if it takes a little longer than doing it, you know um just mediocre work and you know forgetting half of it so action items for next meeting. So this is like every two weeks right. So it's is it going to happen even though it's the thanksgiving week, uh yeah, okay, so action item for next week is uh well. There is no act because we're going to brainstorm one topic right. So it's like we're we're going.

D

The first topic was um growing um quote contributor, and then um um you know, like um I'm gonna, come with some questions that I brainstormed with charles and we're gonna, discuss them here and see if we can add to them and then um maybe, as a group come up with the best person to interview, maybe you can ask around, we can ask around think about it and then just have it ready, like the question's ready to talk to our first interviewee, which I'm happy to do.

D

Does that mean.

C

Sorry I was typing, as you were talking so make sure I got this so you'd like to have some brainstorm questions ready to roll for our next meeting and then maybe road test them on me in paris. Yes,.

D

Sir, the request, the thing is like I started, adjusting readjusting my ideas so for next meeting before our next meeting charles and I I'm going- are going to brainstorm ideas for the topic for the first topic. Okay and then we can discuss these questions in this meeting and get feedback and see what's missing, so we're not gonna come empty-handed.

D

We're gonna come with a few uh questions, okay, ready to discuss, and then we can see you know what what's missing, what makes sense what doesn't make sense and then, hopefully, after that meeting, we have a set of questions that we think will really capture um everything we wanna have in that part of the framework yeah and then how identify the first person to interview yeah, okay, yeah. That seems.

C

Good yeah um charles, was there anything that you wanted. I don't not pushing anyone for action items by the way things move at the pace. People have time for. I was just going to write down. If you were planning on doing anything, some people knew or if you want to focus on me, yeah before the next meeting.

B

um I yeah, I think, I'll, try and get like an outline for this template. Okay,.

B

If you come up with a name for what to call it by the way, that's also really it's. It's got to be some clever acronym I'll come up with it yeah. Maybe it should we'll do something like um what is it when, when your pirates board your ship.

C

B

I don't know something like that, but we'll make it we'll make it like uh something very nautical and kubernetes like.

C

Well, it needs to actually be generic for cncf, not just kubernetes just so. We keep that in mind. I'm.

B

Glad you told me that.

C

Yeah yeah- because this is this- this sig is for all of cncf, so we have people who have nothing to do with nautical terms, actually good.

B

I'm good I'm actually tired of nautical terms. Anyway, that's okay,.

C

Well, the problem with nautical terms: they're uh not very accessible, especially across languages and cultures. So there's nothing wrong with us just using our words and being explicit. I just want to make sure that when, when I talk about it that I'm using some common language to describe what it is, that's all totally makes sense. Thank you yeah. Oh man, my voice is going in and out. I never talk to people and then I have a meeting and it's like my voice is so weak, darren, coven, um yeah.

C

Well, we've got a ton of great stuff here. I don't know. If there's anything else, you want to chat about.

D

No, I think, like from oh sorry, go ahead. Charles.

B

I was just going to say, I think, that's all the things that we had wanted to bring to the meeting right.

D

Yeah yeah, for me, it's just like how do we even get started so I mean now we have a plan, it's like to start talking to people yeah. I have an idea. It's like. I don't know like what. What do you do? We even do so. It's like it's good. We have like a for start questions and then we'll move from there.

C

um So I can help facilitate. uh You know, obviously you'll be at every single one of these meetings. But if you, if you feel like you, need something from me and I'm not doing it or whatever you just have confusions feel free to just reach out and- and you know, ask me or paris or anybody like hey. How are we supposed to move something forward whatever? um Usually if something isn't moving forwards, because someone doesn't realize it's on their plate, so.

D

Yeah yeah yeah and everyone is busy yeah yeah, but I think like if, if uh until the next meeting, you can kind of, maybe just think about potential people, and if you meet them just you know like ask if they would be interested like that would be like a huge help um if yeah, because yeah yeah, like it's contingent on like getting those brains, uh talk to them right, like otherwise uh but yeah. I think that that would be like the biggest um uh thing on our end.

C

I have one potential name I need to think about. It, make sure I'm not mixing up my people, um you know what is your handles, not people sometimes um but yeah. I think uh um I think we have a couple people we can reach out to at the beginning.

D

Yeah, I think, probably always the beginning is a little harder right because you're getting started and but hopefully once we're rolling and things are moving forward. It's gonna be.

C

Easier, I think it will this this is. This is stuff that's near and dear to everyone's hearts, so I'm sure people will be happy to to give us feedback.

D

C

Great okay! Oh if.

A

There's nothing else.

C

I think we're we're good. We can okay have some time.

B

Yeah thanks for your time, it's really helpful carolyn.

C

Yeah, I don't know thank you for showing up and not.

D

Eating this, we.

C

D

We're going to be regular this year, that's what we need. Awesome. Okay, have a great thank you. You, too, bye.

B