►
From YouTube: Live from Kubecon - Over the Edge with Craig McLuckie, VMware & Matt Trifiro, Vapor IO
Description
Don’t miss out! Join us at our upcoming event: KubeCon + CloudNativeCon North America 2021 in Los Angeles, CA from October 12-15. Learn more at https://kubecon.io The conference features presentations from developers and end users of Kubernetes, Prometheus, Envoy, and all of the other CNCF-hosted projects.
Live from Kubecon - Over the Edge with Craig McLuckie, VMware & Matt Trifiro, Vapor IO
Join Over the Edge podcast “Live from Kubecon”! This iteration will feature Craig McLuckie, VP of Research and Development at VMware, working in the Cloud Native Applications business unit. Previously, Craig was co-founder of Google App Engine and the Kubernetes project, and founder and CEO of Heptio (acquired by VMware).
A
Hi,
this
is
matt
shafiro
cmo
of
edge
infrastructure,
company,
vaporio
and
co-chair
of
the
linux
foundation's
state
of
the
edge
project,
I'm
the
host
of
over
the
edge,
a
weekly
hour-long
interview,
style,
podcast
on
edge
computing
and
the
future
of
the
internet.
You
can
find
it
at
over
the
edge
and
on
all
the
major
podcasting
platforms,
including
itunes
and
spotify.
A
B
It's
funny
like
I
was
kind
of
thinking
about
that,
and
I
think
the
answer
was
the
commodore
64
has
with
so
many
kids
of
my
generation.
You
know
as
a
sort
of
nerdy
teenager.
I
discovered
that
programming
was
a
great
kind
of
creative
outlet
for
me,
and
so
I
spent
most
of
the
years
from
between
10
and
17.
I
guess
coding,
and
then
I
took
a
little
break
from
it
believe
it
or
not.
During
college
I
actually
decided
to
pursue
a
different
direction.
B
Electrical
engineering
which
in
south
africa
meant
like
real
electricity.
I
don't
think
I'm
not
sure
that
microsoft
really
understood
that
when
they
interviewed
me
but
and
actually
do
a
lot
of
formal
cs
coursework,
but
it
was
close
enough
that
enabled
me
to
get
a
job
at
microsoft
and
the
rest
has
been
a
great
journey.
B
So
I
left
microsoft
was
back
in
about
roughly
2009
2010
somewhere
around
there,
and
my
first
project
at
google
was
I
kind
of
lucked
out
there
was
this
thing
called
well,
it
became
google
compute
engine.
It
was
called
big
cluster
at
the
time,
but
that's
where
I
met
joe
beta
and
sort
of
starting
point
was
really
just
working
on
bringing
traditional
enterprise
vms
into
the
into
the
google
data
center,
and
it
was
a
was
a
really
fun
project.
B
You
know
it's
interesting
story,
you
know
joe
and
I
you
know,
poured
our
hearts
and
souls
into
building
compute
engine
and
we
felt
like
it
was
great
technology.
You
know
had
a
really
clean,
elegant
api
had
a
lot
of
very
favorable.
You
know
performance
attributes,
some
really
interesting,
networking
capabilities,
etc,
etc.
But
it
was
also
kind
of
interesting
because
in
some
ways
it
was
almost
too
little
too
late.
You
know
when
we
started
the
project.
You
know.
B
Amazon
had
already
opened
a
huge
lead
in
the
ecosystem
and
we
were
starting
to
see
a
really
strong
convergence
of
you
know,
isvs
and
a
lot
of
other
organizations
around
that
around
the
the
amazon
ecosystem.
So
we
step
back
a
little
bit
and
we're
really
thinking
about
like
well.
What
can
we
do
to
kind
of
change?
The
change,
the
game?
Some?
How
can
we
be
a
little
disruptive?
We
knew
that
was
going
to
take
a
while
for
google
to
build
out
the
strength
and
the
go-to-market
side
of
the
house.
B
You
know
get
that
enterprise
readiness
that
it
needed
to
really
compete,
which
I
think
they've
done
a
fabulous
job
under
thomas
kiran
by
the
way.
But
but
it
was
also
clear
that
if
we
didn't
do
something
quite
disruptive,
we
would
you
know,
have
a
really
hard
time
competing
over
time.
And
that
really
motivated
me
to
think
outside
the
box
a
little
bit
and
look
at
other
options.
A
Yeah,
well,
you
know
when
we
met,
I
was
the
cmo
of
mesosphere
and
what
I
think
is
really
interesting
about
the
cncf
and
kubernetes
origin
story.
Is
that
you
actually
embraced
these
alternative
technologies?
Can
you
you
tell
me
a
little
bit
about
what
drove
that
thinking
and
how
that
became.
Part
of
the
foundational
ethos
of
the
cncf.
B
You
know
it's,
it's
really
interesting,
because
it's
funny,
you
know.
I
remember
this
one
moment
where
you
know
joe
and
I
were
kind
of
working
on
compute
engine
and
it
was.
It
was
really
kind
of
sad
because
I
think
the
world
had
an
opportunity
to
normalize
on
something
like
the
virtual
machine
image
definition
as
something
that
could
be
relatively
ubiquitous,
but
that
just
never
happened,
and
I
remember
turning
to
joe
while
we
were
kind
of
working
the
project.
B
I
just
had
this
sort
of
like
moment
where
I
was
like
you
know,
whoever
solves
the
problem
associated
with
packaging
and
deploying
software
atomically
kind
of
like
the
way
we
do
within
borg
is
ultimately
going
to
just
have.
This
amazing
sort
of
you
know
run
of
it
they're
going
to
be
able
to
be
quite
disruptive
to
the
industry,
but
we
were
busy
on
on
compute
engine.
So
eventually,
once
we
got
to
a
point
where
you
know
compute
engine
was,
was,
you
know
largely
kind
of
ideated
and
was
us
on
rails.
B
We
started
playing
with
some
ideas
and
one
of
the
things
that
immediately
caught
our
attention
was
docker.
It
was
was
funny
because
I
remember
you
know
someone
mentioning
this
to
me
like
way
way
way
way
back
when
way
before
doc
was
even
popular
like
hey,
you
should
really
be
paying
attention
to
this.
It's
it's
kind
of
a
neat
model
and
when
we
started
really
getting
stuck
into
it,
it
was.
It
was
like
one
of
those
moments
where,
like
you
know,
wow,
we
shouldn't
really
have
thought
of
this
right
like
it's.
B
It
was
such
an
elegant
way
to
you
know,
express
a
unit
of
you
know
deployment,
but
the
thing
that
was
most
elegant
about
it
wasn't
necessarily
the
technology
which
was
you
know
by
google's
we're
thinking
somewhat
mundane.
It
was
really
the
experience
that
had
been
created
around
that
recognition
that
that
linux,
cisco
layer
was
was
such
a
powerful
abstraction
and
that
really
got
the
wheels
turning.
You
know
we
started
thinking
about
like
well.
B
What
would
this
look
like
done
up
right
and
there
were
certainly
some
projects
in
the
in
the
in
the
ecosystem
that
were
interesting,
but,
more
importantly,
the
way
that
you
know
my
other
friend
brennan
brendan
burns,
who
we
were
working
with
at
the
time,
described
it
as
like.
We
kind
of
had
the
puzzle
box
when
everyone
was
trying
to
figure
out.
You
know
how
to
fit
the
pieces
together.
B
We'd
seen
how
this
would
work
at
scale
and
that
really
motivated
us
to
do
something
new
and-
and
it
became
obvious
that
we
had
to
do
this
through
the
lens
of
the
community.
You
know
once
we
just
saw
or
look
the
disproportional
level
of
attention
and
traction
and
engagement
docker
was
receiving.
You
know
versus
the
relative
maturity
of
the
technology.
B
It
was
clear
that
if
we
could
create
something
righteous,
meaning
that
had
a
lot
of
the
sensibilities
that
we've
come
to
take
for
granted
at
a
place
like
google,
but
we
could
do
it
in
a
way
that
brought
the
community
with
us.
We
could
create
something
quite
special
and
I
don't
know
which
of
the
two
was
that
you
know
kind
of
originally,
you
know
came
up
with
a
crazy
idea
to
you
know
to
make
a
run
at
an
open
source
project
which
became
kubernetes.
It
was
either
brandon
or
job.
B
A
I
I
think
it
did.
I
think
you
know
one
of
the
things
I've
really
always
enjoyed
about.
You
is
how
methodical
you
are
in
your
strategic
planning.
You
know,
there's
always
some
game
theory
equation
going
on
in
your
head,
and
I
think
that
is
why
cncf
ended
up
being
the
way
it
is.
I
think,
a
large
part
of
it
had
had
to
do
with
just
your
conviction
that
this
was
the
the
proper
way
to
to
change
an
industry
and.
A
B
B
You
know
what
would
the
next
abstraction
up
look
like
you
know.
How
would
we
think
about
creating
a
services
ecosystem
on
top
of
it,
and
I
was
working
on
a
couple
of
things
there,
one
of
which
was
the
apogee
acquisition
and
I
kind
of
got
friendly
with
with
chet
kapoor,
who
who
was
the
kind
of
founding
ceo
of
apogee,
and
he
said
something
to
me,
which
kind
of
just
stuck
in
my
head.
You
know
he
was
like
you
know
to
succeed
in
to
succeed
in
a
startup.
B
Where
you
know
the
set
of
incumbents
are
are
not
able
to
move
as
quickly
as
they
might
like,
where
there's
a
high
sort
of
total
addressable
market
and
and
you're
sort
of
in
a
situation
where
that's
what
you
can
create
a
successful
business
on
and
that,
like
it
kind
of
clicked
for
me,
I
was
like
wow
we're
never
going
to
see.
I'm
never
going
to
see
these
circumstances
again,
but
it
was
also
for
me
an
opportunity
to
really
kind
of
step
back
a
little
bit
and
walk
the
journey
with
customers.
B
B
This
very
rich,
open
source
community
and
bridge
the
gap
between
enterprise
organizations
that
were
looking
to
get
more
intrinsically
aligned
with
upstream
technology
and
and
the
communities
that
were
supporting
them,
and
so
that
that's
really
what
you
know
caused
me
to
to
to
go
out
and
do
to
hep
to
you-
and
you
know
my
friend
joe,
was
he
had
he
decided
to
retire,
which
was
kind
of
hilarious
because
he
loves.
I.
B
I
don't
know
like
and
then
eventually
he
was
like:
hey
when
we're
doing
a
starter
when
we're
doing
a
startup-
and
I
just
want
to
work
with
joe
again
too
I'll
be
honest,
like
that.
Was
I've
always
enjoyed
his
his
perspective
on
things
and
so
that
that
really
motivated
us-
and
you
know
that
one
worked
out.
Okay,
too.
So
we're
very
pleased
with
with
the
traction
we
made
in
a
relatively
small
amount
of
time
in
terms
of
just
helping
some
larger
enterprise
organizations
start
to
make
this
journey
towards
cloud-native
technologies.
B
I
don't
know
if
this
is
surprising,
but
it's
something
that
I
would.
I
certainly
took
to
heart
as
a
as
a
leader
when
I
look
back
on,
you
know
what
we
created
and
the
impact
that
the
team
we
brought
together
is
having
within
my
business
unit
and
within
vmware.
Is
you
know,
there's
no
substitute
for
culture?
B
I
think
if
you
can
establish
a
a
very
kind
of
effective
cultural
bar,
if
you
can
design
your
culture
to
the
problem
at
hand,
and
if
you
hold
yourselves
to
a
very
high
standard,
you
will,
it
becomes
self-perpetuating.
The
quality
of
individuals
we
brought
in
have
just
done
tremendous
work.
You
know
within
the
parameters
the
community
within
the
parameters
of
vmware,
and
I
couldn't
be
more
proud
of
just
the
people
like
it's
it's
and
I
think
that
really
just
started
with
being
very,
very
deliberate
about
the
culture
we're
creating.
B
It's
funny
you
asked
that
there
were
there
were
kind
of
three
sort
of
pillars
of
the
culture
that
that
we
established.
The
first
was
what
I
used
to
say
was
honest
technology.
You
know
we
are
a
organization
that
is
in
service
of
the
community
and
in
service
of
our
customers,
and
what
we
build
is
honest
technology,
so
you
know
we
stand
behind
the
way
that
we
build.
We
stand
behind
what
we
build.
We
take
a
great
degree
of
of
pride
and
delight
in
creating
honest
technology.
B
The
second
kind
of
you
know,
cultural
element
that
you
know
I
used
to
push
a
lot
was:
carry
the
fire
like
a
real
passion
for
disruption,
an
authentic
desire
to
create
something
that
was
bigger
than
than
anyone
had
seen,
and
this
this
willingness
to
do
the
hard
thing
to
walk
the
hard
road
when
you
have
to,
and
then
the
third
element
that
we
we
put
a
lot
of
of
emphasis
on.
Was
we
before
me
the
idea
that
you
know
it's?
B
It's
it's
about
the
quality
of
the
the
the
team,
it's
about
the
quality
of
the
community.
It's
about
doing
that.
Little
bit
of
extra
work
so
that
someone
else
doesn't
have
to
do
it
tomorrow
and
obviously
the
there's
a
ocean
of
nuance
associated
with
each
of
those
three
those
three
elements,
but
just
having
that
anchor
of
a
culture
that
was
really
understandable
and
manifest
every
day.
It
informed
the
decisions
that
we
made
and
informed
who
we
hired
informed.
A
B
You
know
it's
interesting
because
you
know
I
see,
containers
and
vms
as
being
they're,
fundamentally
different
technologies,
one
solves
a
packaging
and
distribution
problem,
the
other
solves
a
a
hardware,
isolation
and
abstraction
problem
and
we're
certainly
seeing
often
as
not
a
kind
of
yes
and
art
series
of
outcomes.
I
think
you
know
almost
every
vendor
now
has
some
form
of
hypervisor
isolated.
You
know
kubernetes
or
container
abstraction,
and
we're
certainly
no
exception
to
that.
B
It's
like
that
scene
from
jaws
where
you
seize
the
size
of
the
opportunity,
see
the
size,
the
impact
you
can
have
and
you
you
need
that
bigger
boat
right
and-
and
what
I
was
you
know
so
excited
about-
was
the
opportunity
to
use
the
strengths
that
vmware
was
bringing
to
the
table.
You
know
that
incredibly
trusted
brand
in
enterprise
computing
and
awareness
of
how
to
actually
operationalize
at
scale
and
understanding
that
you
know
the
first
80
percent
of
the
work
is.
Is
you
know
only
you
know
getting
to
that?
B
Eighty
percent
point
is
only
20
of
the
effort
right
like
that
last
20
of
of
enterprise
technology
is
really
hard,
there's
just
an
ordinary
amount
of
effort
associated
with
dealing
with
the
edge
cases
and
getting
everything
set
up,
and
you
know
to
me-
I
saw
this
this
impeccable
opportunity
to
you
know
be
a
part
of
vmware
becoming
something
more
than
just
a
virtualization
company.
Obviously,
vmware
already
was
well
done.
The
franchise
road.
B
I
had
a
lot
of
different
kind
of
you
know
businesses,
but
being
in
a
position
where
we
could
build
out
what
I
thought
of
as
being
a
legitimate
meta
cloud.
You
know
something
that
would
make
on-premises
public
cloud
and
increasingly
the
network
edge
look
consistent.
Was
it
just
you
know
incredibly
exciting
to
me,
and
so,
as
I've
been
on
this
on
this
journey,
you
know,
I
always
think
of
you
know
the
kind
of
in
my
head.
I'm
pretty
simplistic.
You
know
one
I
want
to
deliver
a
ubiquitous,
kubernetes
substrate,
that's
consistent
everywhere.
B
Two,
that's
not
really
interesting!
Unless
you
have
an
effective
control
plane
to
manage
it
and
then
three
I
want
to
render
up
the
software
supply
chain
that
enables
developers
to
produce
business
outcomes
in
that
destination,
and
you
know,
through
the
initial
you
know,
integration
into
vmware.
We
just
massively
extended
our
reach
to
all
of
those
existing
facilities
and
became
a
really
strong
anchor
for
vmware's
own
navigation
and
migration
to
support
public
cloud
computing.
B
B
A
B
Well,
I
mean
the
whole
point
of
kubernetes
was
that
it
would
be
that
goldilocks
abstraction
that
enables
you
to
treat
you
know
most
infrastructure
consistently
and
the
opportunity
here
is
is
no
different.
You
know,
I
think
you
know,
obviously
there's
a
very
broad.
You
know
array
of
definitions,
for
you
know
what
edge
computing
is
from.
You
know
thick
edge
to
thin
edge
near
edge
far
edge.
B
However,
you
want
to
kind
of
taxonomize
it,
and
so
the
starting
point,
I
think,
is
just
having
that
normalized
substrate,
like
that
compute
substrate,
that
you
can
then
tie
back
to
a
control
plane.
So
you
can
start
to
reason
about
your
edge,
whether
it's
you
know
geographically
distributed
whether
it's
running
in
a
variety
of
different.
You
know
polities
whatever
the
case
may
be
as
being
a
common
destination
and
making
that
destination
accessible
to
developers
that
are
building
physical
outcomes
is
really
interesting.
B
We've
seen
so
much
excitement
and
engagement
around
things
like
reactive
computing
patterns,
we've
seen
the
emergence
of
you
know:
cdn,
based
capabilities,
that's
really
addressing
the
kind
of
outward
flow
of
of
developer
assets.
You
know
to
the
edge
device.
The
really
exciting
thing
is:
what
about
the
reverse
like?
How
do
we
start
to
kind
of
synthesize
and
process
information
that's
being
generated
at
the
edge?
B
How
do
we
do
that
in
a
topology
aware
way,
that's
making
appropriate
use
of
what
computational
resources
home
they're,
you
know,
balancing
computational
consumption
with
network
backbone
consumption,
and
that
to
me
is
just.
I
could
not
be
more
excited
about
the
the
opportunity
to
to
to
look
to
participate
in
in
that
part
of
the.
A
B
A
Me
unpack
that
a
little
bit,
so,
if
you
think
about
you,
know
kubernetes
as
being
a
over
simplistically,
but
I
think
usefully
a
a
platform
that
will
take
a
container
and
based
on
a
declaration
run
it
somewhere
and
in
a
single
data
center.
There's
a
set
of
you
know,
common
declarations
that
we
might
make
that
the
scheduler
can
interpret
to
figure
out
where
those
workloads
run
within
that
cluster
in
that
data
center.
Do
you
see
that
metaphor?
B
B
B
You
know
like
just
the
the
cost
of
operations
just
doesn't
scale
with
the
the
deployment
topology.
Otherwise
things
are
going
to
get
bad.
You
can't
send
an
it
operator
to
every
edge
location
to
deal
with
something
that
you
have
to
update,
whereas
you
could
do
that
in
the
old
days
and
kubernetes
is,
is
just
an
incredibly
important
technology.
From
that
perspective,
it
introduces
a
determinism
in
terms
of
how
you
can
reason
above
deploying
something.
B
B
Kubernetes
has
created
a
a
controller
patent
like
you
know,
brennan
burns,
one
of
the
founders
of
the
project,
so
is
a
creative
genius
as
far
as
I'm
concerned
he's
also
a
robotics
professor
before
this,
and
so
he
was
all
geeking
out
about
you
know
kind
of
control
theory,
and
that
certainly
is
a
key
element
of
what
kubernetes
is
it's?
It's
not
just
about
containers
and
deployment.
It's
about
creating
an
appropriate
set
of
control
loops
so
that,
what's
within
the
boundaries
of
that,
that
controller
can
be
managed
at
atomically
by
that
controller.
B
So
it's
it's
not
just
about
getting
your
application
out
there.
It's
about
the
care
and
feeding.
If
something
goes
wrong,
the
restart
dynamics,
the
ability
to
deterministically
update
it,
making
informed
decisions
about
you
know
scalability
in
those
in
those
locations
without
access
to
a
centralized
control
plane.
B
A
So
when
you
think
about
the
edge
you
know
there,
there
are
some
pretty
fundamental
changes
that
happen
at
the
access
network
that
last
mile,
so
to
speak.
You
know
a
lot
of
times
the
ownership
of
the
server
transfers
from
a
cloud
company
to
an
enterprise.
You
know
how
do
you
see?
How
do
you
view
that
the
the
that
transition,
the
edge
of
the
last
mile
mark
network?
Do
you
see
that
getting
blurrier?
Do
you
do
you
imagine
you
know
cloud
workloads
being
spawned
on
private
equipment?
B
I
think
it's
a
it's
a
fascinating,
it's
a
fascinating
topic
of
discussion
and
like,
if
I
I
think,
anyone
who
tells
you
they
know
exactly
how
it's
going
to
go
is
probably
selling
something.
I
think
there's
there's
still
a
lot
of
figuring
out
to
do.
But
you
know
I'd
say
there
are
a
couple
of
trends.
We
will
see
the
cloud
providers
come
with
deeply
vertically
integrated
capabilities
that
are
being
rendered
out
into
into
those
environments
and
they
have
some
very
strong
assets
at
their
disposal.
B
I
think
we
will
certainly
see
some
amazing
opportunities
for
organizations
to
create
kind
of
multi-tenant-based
outcomes
in
those
types
of
destinations,
so
independently
of
who
owns
a
physical
piece
of
serving
gear.
There's
no
reason
why
you
couldn't
create
an
api
economy
or
a
an
edge
function
economy
that
can
leverage
out.
B
You
know,
whoever
you
know
put
that
piece
of
infrastructure
up
there
as
long
as
you
can
normalize
that
infrastructure,
as
long
as
you
can
set
up
the
the
tenancy
model
and
the
the
isolation
boundaries
sufficiently
you're
in
a
situation
where
there's
like
whole
new
economies
will
likely
emerge
around
this,
and
I
think
that
that
landscape
will
be
quite
fluid
for
some
time
but
yeah.
It's
it's.
Certainly
it's
a
fascinating
dynamic,
exactly
as
you
said
as
you,
you
know,
there's
these
sort
of
classic
boundaries
of
of
ownership
and
that's
very
much
in
flux.
A
Yeah
I
mean
it's
it's
you
know
you
can
run
kubernetes
on
a
on
a
raspberry
pi
on
a
device,
that's
actually
in
the
field,
and
I
think
it's
very
different
than
running
kubernetes
on
a
you
know,
on
a
server
that
happens
to
be
at
the
base
for
cell
tower
in
a
carrier
hotel
or
in
a
regional
data
center.
But
I
think
both
are
reasonable
and
applicable.
B
I
don't
you
know,
I
think
kubernetes
complements
linux,
I'm
not
sufficiently
arrogant
to
like
assume
that
it
will
have
the
duty
cycle
that
linux
has
had.
I
hope
it
does.
I
think
it
likely
will,
but
we
still
have
work
to
do
as
a
community
to
make
that
true.
But
the
the
potential
of
the
sort
of
the
versatility
of
that
model,
I
think,
is-
is
quite
strong
and
we're
certainly
heading
in
in
a
positive
direction,
with
technology.
A
B
You
know
it's
interesting.
I
was
thinking
a
little
bit
about
this
before
before
we
came
on,
I
think,
there's
there's.
Obviously
you
know
normalizing
a
variety
of
different
form
factors,
making
sure
that
we
have
effective
conformance
standards
around
a
variety
of
different
form
factors
effectively,
making
sure
that
we
get
those
profiles
in
place
so
that
you
know,
if
you're,
building
an
application
for
a
certain
class
of
deployment.
B
There's
a
well-qualified,
you
know
profile,
because
you
know
when
you're
running
something
on
raspberry
pi,
it's
not
going
to
feel
like
running
something
in
your
in
your
mainstream
data
center.
So
I
think
that's
certainly
an
area
that
you
know
behooves
us
to
to
emphasize
and
focus
on.
You
know.
Interestingly,
I've
been
thinking
a
fair
bit
recently
about
the
intersection
of
web
assembly
and
and
some
of
these
technologies.
B
You
know,
there's
an
interesting
little
project
from
microsoft
called
crusted,
but
when
we
start
looking
at
the
class
and
shape
and
nature
of
of
like
things
like
edge
functions,
the
ability
to
write
a
relatively
small
slit
of
code
that
can
run
in
a
massively
multi-tenant
context
have
very
high
levels
of
of
security
isolation.
It
really
starts
to
feel
a
lot
like
webassembly
and
so
I'd
love
to
see
things
like
the
webassembly
systems
interfaces
protocols
solidify.
B
You
know,
building
applications
for
these
these
types
of
deployments,
where
various
pieces
are
home
to
a
variety
of
different
destinations,
depending
on
the
the
the
cost
economics
of
where
something
is
run,
is
is
going
to
be
quite
interesting
and
again
it's
all
going
to
come
back
to
control,
plane,
you're,
not
going
to
be
a
cool
vendor.
If
you
don't
have
a
a
control
plane
that
enables
you
to
deliver
outcomes
into
these
types
of
destinations.
B
At
the
end
of
the
day,
relatively
few
organizations
are
going
to
have
the
capabilities
to
you
know
operate
effectively.
A
full-on
sas
service
to
to
you
know
think
through
the
mechanics
of
how
these
types
of
applications
are
built
and
delivered
and
managed
and
updated
and
observed.
That's
going
to
be
interesting
and
then
the
final
piece.
I
think
that's
going
to
be
quite
interesting,
and
this
is
something
I
don't
think
the
community
is
is
focused
quite
enough
on
yet.
B
B
You
know
what
what
does
it
look
like?
You
know
what
does
apm
look
like
for
an
edge-based
solution
where
you
have
you
know
a
pretty.
You
know
a
pretty
fragment
or
pretty
hierarchical
topology.
How
do
you
reason
about
you
know
a
metric
system?
That's
thinking
about
how
do
you
make
that
sufficiently
hierarchical
so
that
you
don't
overwhelm
the
network
links
with
metrics
but
you're
able
to
retain
what
you
need
to
retain
from
a
local
deployment
perspective?
A
Yeah,
I
think
the
the
the
whole
telemetry
the
importance
of
telemetry
to
edge
computing
has
been
underappreciated
and
it's
not
just
telemetry
come
off
coming
off
the
applications.
It's
telemetry
coming
off
the
network,
it's
kind
of
actually
coming
off
of
the
operational
technology.
I
mean
if
one
of
your
micro
data
centers
out
at
the
edge
goes
on
to
battery
power.
You
probably
want
to
make
some
intelligent
decisions
about
starting
up.
You
know,
backup.
A
And
starting
to
low
balance
traffic
around
and
right
now
getting
that
information
is
very
hard
because
it's
not
something
that
you
know
it's.
It's
probably
buried
behind
some
can
bus
interface
that
you
don't
have
access
to
as
a
software
developer,
and
even
you
did.
You
might
not
know
what
to
do
with
it.
So
it's
it's
the
telemetry
piece
I
think
you're
right.
That's
really
really
underappreciated
from
the
the
from
a
use
case
perspective,
and
I
you
know
I
it's
you
know
the
the
you
know.
A
The
autonomous
car
example
is
the
one
that
wants
to
be
everybody's
favorite,
although
I
think
people
that
really
think
about
it,
don't
expect
the
infrastructure
to
be
the
driving
factor
for
autonomous
vehicles,
maybe
for
coordinating
them,
but
not
not
the
thing.
But
if
you
look
like
over
the
next,
let's
say:
18
months.
B
The
two
areas
where
I
see
the
most
kind
of
energy
around
are
in
the
retail
and
manufacturing
segments.
Look
pretty
much.
Every
segment
you
can
think
of
is
is
is
is
chewing
on
the
edge
problem.
Retail
in
particular
is
an
area
where
I'm
seeing
things
moving
very
very
quickly.
You
know,
obviously,
the
the
global
pandemic
has
forced
a
lot
of
retailers
to
you
know,
take
a
long,
hard
look
at
how
they
do
business,
how
they
operate,
and
you
know
the
you
know
the
old
narrative
around
necessity
and
invention.
B
B
That
is,
you
know
sufficiently
operable
that
you
can
roll
it
out
to
a
pretty
broad
array
of
sites
to
unlock
everything
from
you
know,
relatively
simple.
You
know,
experiences
in
you
know
small,
you
know,
branch
locations
or
small
retail
locations
to
running.
You
know
really
high-end
inferencing
workloads,
and
you
know
you
know
creating
these
next
generation
shopping.
Experiences
is
interesting.
This
that
that
segment,
in
particular,
is
moving
very
quickly.
B
Manufacturing,
I
think
over
a
slightly
longer
horizon
is,
is
becoming
you
know,
very,
very
focused
on
getting
better
computational
resource
and
you
know
a
better
control
of
the
computational
resource.
But
the
problem
with
a
lot
of
manufacturing
is
that
that's
generally
tied
to
a
pretty
high
capex
moment
and
it's
a
it's
a
sort
of
much
more
kind
of
complex
roll-up.
But
you
know
certainly
from
what
I
see
well.
A
You
mentioned
covert
19,
and
you
know
my
experience
is
that
you
know
every
every
manufacturer
had
a
10-year
automation
plan.
That's
now
a
four-year
automation
plan
because
of
covet,
because
nobody
wants
stuck
in
that
position
again,
where
they're
shutting
down
the
lines,
because
they
can't
get
people
close
enough,
yeah
really
really
interesting
times.
So
craig
the.
What
do
you
think
the
the
biggest
challenges
are
to
adoption
of
edge
devices
and
edge
technology.
B
It
always
comes
back
to
the
people
skills.
You
know.
The
technology
I
think
is,
is
emerging
being
able
to
identify.
You
know
just
given
the
noise
being
able
to
steal
a
signal
from
the
noise,
and
you
know
make
smart
bets,
you
know
getting
the
the
skill
set
in
place.
That's
necessary
to
you
know,
start
running
a
series
of
experiments.
You
know
navigating
so
that
you're
not
making
these
kind
of
huge.
B
You
know
capex
heavy
investments
that
you
can
actually
start
to
build
into
what
you're
doing
and
and
build
your
organizational
skills
at
the
same
rate
as
you're
starting
to
to
engage
and
deploy
these
technologies
is,
is
key.
The
control
plane.
You
have
to
have
a
a
sort
of
a
hierarchical,
highly
available
control
plan
to
support
this
that's
necessary
because
it's
not
just
about
you
know,
I
think
a
lot
of
folks.
You
know
overemphasize
well,
what
does
it
take
to
deploy
a
kubernetes
to
this
destination?
B
Well,
it's
that's
one
thing,
updating
it
that's
another,
but
then
like
how
do
I
deploy
an
application
into
10
000
retail
locations?
How
do
I
run
an
experiment
in
two
of
those
and
get
the
results
of
that
experiment?
How
to
make
informed
decision
when
I'm
ready
to
deploy
that
update
out
to
the
other
9998
locations
if
you're
running
a
sufficiently
large
operation?
B
And
you
know
without
that
control,
plane
technology,
getting
really
buttoned
down
and
being
able
to
reason
about
the
control
plane
is
something
that
spans
both
the
infrastructure,
but
also
the
supply
chain
that
renders
those
application
capabilities
components.
Experiences
is
going
to
be
key
and
I'd
say
this.
The
second
area,
then
this
is
you
know,
as
we
start
looking
at
you
know
the
the
energy
and
impetus
to
start
to
have
more
multi-tenant.
B
Edge-Based
facilities
is
going
to
be
a
challenge.
The
kubernetes
itself
was
certainly
never
built
as
a
kind
of
natively
multi-tenant
environment,
so
being
able
to
have
better
lines
of
isolation,
security,
a
tendency
model.
That's
that's!
That's
smart
for
much
lighter
weight,
kind
of
function
like
use
cases,
it's
going
to
be
a
big,
a
big
challenge
for
this.
This
industry.