►
From YouTube: 2023-07-11 WG Platforms Project Meeting
Description
TAG web site: https://tag-app-delivery.cncf.io/
TAG Slack channel: https://cloud-native.slack.com/archives/CL3SL0CP5
TAG git repo: https://github.com/cncf/tag-app-delivery
TAG meeting notes: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OykvqvhSG4AxEdmDMXilrupsX2n1qCSJUWwTc3I7AOs/edit
C
B
A
A
D
D
A
The
broader
tag
recently
API
stuff
has
been
coming
up
a
lot,
not
necessarily
gateways
but
like
Mike
rocks
came
through
recently,
and
we
were
talking
with
them
and
some
other
standards
around
apis
we've
even
been
discussing,
but
I
also
don't
think
this
will
be
API
management,
like
second
level
apis
like
cross
planes
apis
on
kubernetes,
and
you
know
Graphics
as
promises
from
Abby's
here.
But
that's
does
that
relate.
D
Yeah
I
mean
which
look
there's
some
things
that
we
share
in
common
right
apis,
you
know,
have
this
urgency
around
being
treated
like
a
product
because
they're
in
the
service
of
others
and
the
platform
is
in
the
same
way
in
the
service
of
others,
and
so
how
do
you
you
know?
How
do
you
enable
that
and
the
whole
point
is
to
power
up
everyone
else,
and
so
these
things
go
together.
They
also
intersect
because
you
can't
separate
the
API
from
the
service
and
that
cuts
both
ways
right
there.
D
D
Is
that
yeah
right
that
at
some
point,
some
software
somewhere
has
to
fulfill
a
request,
and
so
you
can't
get
away
from
the
fact
that
there's
an
implementation
somewhere,
that's
making
the
magic
happen,
but
from
the
consumer
perspective
you
don't
need
to
know
how
it
works.
You
just
need
to
know
how
to
invoke
it.
I
think
to
me.
Apis
are
like
magic
in
that
way
and
that
you,
as
long
as
you
know
how
to
invoke
it
things
happen.
A
A
D
Yeah,
because
to
me,
I
think,
there's
already
two
things:
one
is
like
the
the
service
registry.
How
do
you
understand
the
implementation
view
of
the
world
and
then
there's
the
more
consumer
oriented
view?
How
do
you
know
what
capabilities
exist
in
an
organization?
And
how
do
you
gain
access
to
them
and
to
me,
unfortunately,
there's
this
Collision,
because
we
didn't
think
so
far
enough
ahead
in
the
early
API
management
days
to
under.
We
call
them
developer
portals
right
because
they
are
they're.
D
The
audiences
for
developers
and
the
thing
that's
being
offered
or
vended
is
an
API
and
and
there's
even
a
kind
of
like
checkout
process.
How
do
you
get
credentials?
How
do
you
manage
those
things
and
so
the
the
I
think
of
those
really
as
API
storefronts
now,
unless
less
as
a
developer
portal,
because
things
like
backstage
have
emerged
to
fill
the
space?
That
is
really
a
much
broader
view
of
what
developers
need
like
it?
Really
it's
a.
What
do
you
need
to
be
successful
as
a
software
engineer
in
a
company?
A
D
A
E
A
E
E
E
If
we
can
get
the
kind
of
One-Shot
table
the
very
concise
summary
of
what
are
the
levels
and
what
are
the
aspects
that
are
leveled
a
bit
more
tightened
up
a
bit
more
clear
and
and
following
our
intentions,
then
we
can
worry
about
the
more
detailed
explanations
afterwards.
So
there's
lots
of
great
comments
in
the
detailed
paragraphs.
But
what
you'll
see
is
that
as
I've
been
replying
to
you,
I've
been
often
coming
back
up
to
the
table
and
leaving
the
paragraphs
as
they
are.
That's
why?
E
Because
I
think
the
paragraphs
have
to
come
off
the
back
of
the
the
complete
model,
so
it'd
be
cool
to
spend
a
few
minutes.
I
think
maybe
we're
gonna
spend
about
20
minutes
here
today,
ish
but
Josh.
You
can
be
honest
on
that
going
over
the
model
summary.
So
this
is
the
table
with
all
the
colors
in
the
document
which
I
think
I
saw
someone
share
in
the
zoom.
Yes,
thank
you.
Josh.
E
E
That
I
think
we
have
some
questions
about,
but
there's
been
a
lot
of
change
since
the
last
call
which
I
think
two
weeks
ago.
So
if
you
haven't
seen
the
update
since
it's
been
looked
at
recently,
please
take
a
minute
to
read
it
through
and
give
a
shout
about
something,
you're
passionate
about
having
a
conversation
given
that
we've
got
all
the
people
in
the
room
today,
so
many
people
I
should
say
not
all
but.
E
F
E
Cool
awesome
so
we'll
keep
it
then,
just
to
like
make
sure
to
be
concrete,
we'll
keep
it
as
just
talking
about
levels,
one
through
four.
We
know
that
there
may
or
may
not
be
something
that
we
can
do
to
help
clarify
what
one
two
three
four
actually
stands
for,
but
we're
gonna
keep
it
just
talking
about
one
through
four
and
we'll
go
down
the
list
to
look
at
the
aspects
so
and
walk
through
those
awesome.
E
The
other
thing,
I
guess
I'd
call
out
is
there's
been
some
really
good
conversation.
So
by
going
through
these
aspects,
what
would
be
really
helpful
is
to
identify
if
they
are
at
similar
granularity,
slash
similar
impact,
slash
they
feel
like
they
are
peers
because
they
should
be
peers
and
if
they
aren't,
why
not?
What
can
we
do
about
that?
And
then
the
other
thing
to
keep
in
mind
is
whether
or
not
they
are
a
complete
list.
E
So
are
there
duplications
like
too
much
overlap
between
any
of
them,
or
is
we
missing
gaps
in
something
we
want
to
talk
about
when
it
comes
to
platform
maturity?
So
if
you
can
keep
those
things
in
mind
as
we
go
through,
that
are
questions
that
won't
come
up
for
any
one
aspect,
but
are
important
when
talking
about
the
maturity
model
as
a
whole,
just
to
call
that
out,
so
investment
is
one
that
we've
had
a
bunch
of
conversation
around
I
think
it
was
originally
like
budget
or
something
along
those
lines.
E
E
The
idea
here
being
that
we've
seen
a
differences
worth
of
investments
in
the
sense
of
do
people
view
this
as
a
one-off
cost?
Do
they
view
this
as
something
that's
ongoing?
Do
they
view
infrastructure
as
the
the
singular
domain
of
the
platform
team,
or
is
it
actually
an
offering
from
internal
to
the
organization?
And
so
by
talking
about
investment,
we're
talking
about
what
kind
of
impact
the
platform
Engineering
Group
can
have
on
the
engineering
efforts
of
the
organization,
and
so
it
goes
from
sort
of
this
one-off
funding.
E
E
We've
got
this
annual
budget,
but
there,
and
so
that's
great,
and
we
have
designated
platform
engineering
team
which
is
good
and
then
and
that,
but
that's
going
to
be
a
very
like
technical
team
at
this
level,
with
the
current
definition
versus
at
level
three,
we
start
to
introduce
that
this
is
a
product
team.
So
there's
there
are
roles
being
paid
for
that
are
not
peer.
E
Engineering
roles
so
specifically
mentioned
here-
is
product
manager,
but
also
you
can
imagine
here
like
an
internal
evangelist
or
other
roles
that
would
not
be
Builders
of
the
platform
and
then
finally,
there'll
be
there'll,
be
some
expectation
that
the
platform
team
can
speak
to
the
profit
and
loss
of
the
organization
as
a
part
of
their
like
funding,
so
they
can
gain
access
to
more
funding
by
improving
the
profit
and
loss
of
the
business
through
their
efforts,
and
they
will
also
potentially
get
squeezed
on
funding,
if
not
so
and
I.
Think.
E
The
big
difference
here
between
three
and
four
is
that
in
many
organizations,
people
think
of
something
like
platform,
engineering
or
infrastructure
as
like
a
necessary
cost
that
just
is
versus
this
is
about
making
sure
that
that
cost
is
not
just
a
well.
We
have
to
pay
for
cloud
compute,
it's
fine,
but
actually
something
that
people
can
actually
ask
hard
questions
about
and
make
sure
are
doing,
business
oriented
outcome
work.
So
how
do
people
feel
about
where
we've
landed
with
some
of
those
word
changes
and
and
things
any
questions.
F
F
It
just
made
me
want
to
just
be
reconsiderate
of
like
what.
What
exactly
is
that
meaning
and
then
the
fourth
level
I
think
related
to
yeah
the
budget
and
dedicated
capabilities,
I.
Think
three
and
four
almost
kind
of
seem
a
little
blurred
together
as
well.
I
know
that
you
kind
of
you
explain,
sort
of
the
differentiation
between
the
two
I'm,
not
sure,
if
there's
any
way
that
we
can
make
it
more
clear.
Those
are
kind
of
my
my
first
thoughts
on
that.
E
What
else
are
people
thinking
what
I
I
really
liked?
Sorry,
how
you
like
called
attention
to
the
things
that
you
most
wanted
to
to
challenge
or
to
like
think
deeper
on
I,
think
that's
really
helpful.
When
we're
getting
to
the
nuanced
conversations,
we
can
agree
on
vast
majorities
of
things
where
the
disagreements,
so,
where
else
would
people
like
to
highlight,
like
things
to
think
about
for
this
aspect.
G
Abby,
can
you
hear
me
yeah?
It's
just
a
one
question
from
myself
like
for
this
model
of
summary:
is
it
for
oriented
around
everyone
actually
reading
the
documents?
What
is,
is
it
more
of
focusing
around
technical
aspect
of
the
platform
or
is
actually
the
way
you
actually
perceive
them
platforms?
So
the
one
is
actually
more
relented
about
devops
platform
engineering
developer
relations
guy
who
are
actually
selling
the
platform.
Another
one
is
actually
who
is
actually
more
focused
is
already
have
a
domain,
so
what
sort
of
target
audience
is
for?
This
is
for
everyone.
G
And-
and
the
next
question
happy
is
like
sometime,
I
I
do
see
a
model
like
this
in
the
website
when
people
mentioning
build
versus,
buy
dilemma
and
they
have
something
similar
to
these
tables
being
presented.
So
do
you
think
like
if
somebody
is
actually
focusing
or
is
actually
looking
for
information
around
build
versus,
buy
dilemma?
So
if
this
is
the.
E
In
in
my
personal
opinion-
and
this
is
not
in
the
I-
don't
think
codified
yet
in
the
maturity
model,
I'm
not
sure
it
needs
to
be
or
should
be,
but
in
my
personal
opinion
it
isn't
build
versus,
buy
it's.
What
should
we
build
and
what
should
we
buy
and
you
need
to
do
both
and
I
think
that,
in
my
opinion,
this
one
is
starting
to
get
to
that
point
where
it's
like
just
buying.
E
Something
might
give
you
a
heck
of
a
lot
of
benefit,
but
realistically
you're
going
to
need
to
curate
that
in
some
way
and
that
curation
might
be
through
configuration
of
something
you
purchased,
which
can
can
usually
go
to
a
certain
extent
or
it
may
be
around
something
else:
stitching
together,
purchase,
Solutions
and
so
I
think
yeah.
So
this
is
not
meant
to
be
a
build
versus
buy
option.
D
I
just
wanted
I
had
a
couple
questions,
so
one
I
mean
I.
Think
each
of
these
stages
represents
sort
of
the
distinguishing
traits
of
that
stage,
if
I
understood
correctly
and
that
I
found
it
interesting
in
the
third
stage.
Dedicated
platform
product
manager,
I
think
that
may
be
a
prerequisite
to
getting
to
stage
four,
and
then
it
seems
also
that
emergence
of
metrics
that
help
quantify
the
impact
that
the
team
is
having
on
the
company.
D
E
Right
I
think
so
I'm
just
trying
to
capture
that
it's
references
for
getting
to
stage
four,
as
it
is
progressing
to
stage
four
requires
someone
to
keep
track
of
the
profit
loss
idea
right.
So
it's
someone
to
identify
and
keep
track,
and
that's
the
kind
of
content
I
think
in
my
opinion,
is
going
to
make
for
really
good
expansive
conversation
after
we
get
to
the
table
right.
So
it's
like
the
the
idea
behind
having
a
table
and
not
just
going
straight
to
the
more
High
Fidelity
high
value
kind
of
deeper
content.
E
You
know
like
if
we
genuinely
the
way
you
get
up
to
uptake
on
some
of
these
things
is
often
making
it
consumable
and
I
mean
that
both
for
like
slide
deck
as
well
as
for
like
someone,
can
take
a
look
and
get
a
sense
and
then,
if
they
get
very
incensed
by
something
they
get
very
upset
by
something
or
don't
understand
something
we
want
to
make
sure
we
have
the
details
to
back
up
the
conversation
rather
than
like
just
staying
very
high
level
like
well.
We
told
you
it's,
you
know,
platform
team
budget.
D
In
some
ways
in
stage
three,
it
feels
like
you're
Gathering
strengths
for
the
push
to
four.
It
feels
like
actually
there's
like
the
chasm
exists,
mostly
between
two
and
three.
How
do
you
go
from
this
sort
of
Grassroots
effort?
I
would
argue
it's
someone
like
into
this
I'm
thinking
about
and
preparing
for
understanding
this
as
a
core
piece
of
your
business
as
a
business.
C
Between
two
and
three
just
the
concept
of
minimal
variable
variable
products
right
versus
students-
variable
products
might
be.
What
do
you
think
of
a
maybe
a
new
terminology
called
rainbow
viable
platform,
but
because,
at
the
end
of
stage,
two
it's
a
platform,
that's
ready
for
use.
So
that's
why
it's
also
the
minimum
viable
platform.
C
So,
for
example,
kubernetes
kubernetes
become
a
platform
where
you
can
build
on
then.
So
that's
the
end
of
stage
two
and
in
stage
three
and
Beyond
you
can
add
additional
minimum
viable
product.
You
know
just
new
new
projects
that
can
be
added
onto
the
kubernetes
ecosystem,
but
at
least
you
have
a
platform
from
stage
two
onwards.
E
So
I
think
I'm,
gonna
I'm,
going
to
I,
don't
know
different
words
in
different
parts
of
the
world,
I'm
going
to
suggest
that
we
take
that
conversation
offline.
When
we
talk
about
the
four
like
the
way
we
talk
about
the
four
levels,
I
would
say,
the
one
thing
I
would
say
is
that
I
think
platforms
are
a
lot
like
Ci
CD
pipelines
of
10
years
ago.
Everyone
had
a
delivery
pipeline
10
15
20
years
ago.
E
It
might
have
included
Joe
schmoe
in
the
corner,
scp-ing
to
a
server
and
copying
some
files,
but
like
that
was
their
delivery
Pipeline
and
what
CI
CD
codification
did
was
they
made
it
visible
and
made
it
faster
and
more
repeatable
and
so
on.
Today
everyone
has
a
platform.
There
is
a
way
that
people
gain
access
to
infrastructure
and
deliver
their
applications
to
production.
Whether
or
not
those
are
maintainable,
manageable,
customized
secure.
E
You
know
all
those
things
like
efficient
is
where
we're
trying
to
help
people
with
so
I
I
personally
steer
away
from
things
like
minimum
viable
platform,
because
I
think
it
throws
out
the
baby
with
the
bath
water.
A
bit
on
like
that
people
have
a
platform
today,
and
all
we're
trying
to
do
is
shine
a
light
on
whether
or
not
that
platform
is
effective
for
the
what
they're
trying
to
achieve
as
a
business
and
so
yeah,
but
I
do
think.
E
That's
a
slightly
tangential
conversation
to
the
the
aspects
and
I'm
realizing
that
I
talk
too
much
I've
known
that
for
a
long
time.
This
is
not
new,
and
so
I
want
to
suggest
that
I'll
leave
the
the
mic
for
a
second
to
say
any
last
kind
of
questions
that
we
want
to
raise
around
the
investment
four
levels
before
we
move
on
to
the
next
one.
A
I
just
wanted
to
confirm
that
I
talked
with
a
relatively
well-known
company
yesterday
and
they
had
two
different
kinds
of
platforms
that
they
talked
to
me
about.
Was
it
read
at
we
interviewed
them
and
the
first
one
was
very
much
in
this
stage,
one
very
voluntary
one-off,
like
do
it
when
you
can
and
then
they
had
another
team
which
was
a
more
valuable
part
of
their
business
where
they
did
have
a
product
manager.
They
were
advocating
for
them.
So
it
really
like
brought
this
home
for
me.
So
cool.
E
Yeah
and
that's
somewhere
up
in
here
in
the
intro,
we
talk
about
the
fact
that
there
might
be
more
than
one
platform
initiative
within
your
organization
and
they
should
each
be
able
to
use
this
model
independently
and
then
you,
as
an
organization,
can
use
it.
There's
no
like
scoping
of
this
model
to
it
must
be
organization
wider.
It
must
be,
you
know,
per
platform
offering
or
whatever
so
I
think.
That's
really
cool
call
out.
F
A
quick
question
I
know
that
we're
kind
of
getting
into
the
weeds
of
each
I
just
kind
of
wanted
to
re-ask
the
question
of
like
did
you
think
it
was
a
higher
priority
for
us
to
talk
about
like
the
just
more
General
structure,
of
like
the
four
levels
and
categories
like
what
I'm
afraid
of
is
we're
going
to
kind
of
get
through
this
whole
list?
And
then
the
time
is
going
to
be
over
and
we
didn't
actually
talk
about.
Do
we
want
to
do
the
concept
of
this
or
yeah.
E
No,
that's
a
fair
question,
so
I
think
maybe
and
given
the
time
and
stuff-
maybe
it's
a
good
point
to
say:
I've
set
aside
the
same
time
next
week,
so
Tuesday
at
4
pm
UTC
that
I'm
available
and
I'll
get
Josh
to
put
that
on
the
calendar.
Maybe
I
can
now
I.
Don't
know
I'm
like
able
to
do
things
like
this
now,
but
I'll
get
it
to
be
on
the
the
tag
calendar.
E
If
people
would
like
to
spend
time,
maybe
going
into
the
weeds
but
you're
right,
I
think
sorry,
I
think
it's
worth
having
the
conversation
open
of
at
this
stage.
There
is
a
question
all
the
way
up
at
the
top,
where
it's
called
a
maturity
model
on
whether
or
not
maturity
model
is
the
right
phrase,
whether
or
not
there's
some
other
word
that
would
capture
what
we're
trying
to
achieve
here,
which
is
to
give
people
a
concrete
way
to
evaluate
their
own
experiences
against
the
aspirational
writings
that
are
in
the
white
paper.
E
That's
what
we're
trying
to
do.
That's
what
we're
trying
to
achieve
maturity
model
is
the
term
I'm
familiar
with
that
doesn't
mean
it's
the
right
term
and
then,
within
the
maturity
model.
The
idea
that
these
are
the
aspects
that
we're
currently
targeting
and
we're
currently
targeting
a
four
level
progression
that
are
independent
aspect
progression.
So
in
the
sense
that
we
will
never
suggest
that
a
team
or
an
organization
is
completely
level
one
they
might
be,
but
that
would
be
because
they
happen
to
be.
E
They
can
very
easily
have
a
level
three
and
a
level
two
and
a
level
one
all
at
the
same
organization
and
all
the
same
team
and
that's
okay
and
they
can
like
Place
themselves
and
decide
where
to
place
their
chips
on
what
to
invest
in.
So
those
are
sort
of
the
principles
of
the
document
that
are
probably
to
your
point
worth
making
sure
people
have
a
chance
just
to
ask
questions
of
or
speak
up
about
now,.
G
G
A
G
I
I
I
can
share
one
of
the
Articles
from
the
octopus
deploy
team
where
they
share
different
types
of
platform
shredded
platform,
and
they
have
three
four
five
different
categories.
I
can
share
the
link,
so
basically
I'm
thinking
like
might
you
can
list
down
what
are
the
diff,
but
that
is
tricky,
like
he
said,
is
currently
we
don't
up
to
this
point
doesn't
even
convince
how
many
different
platform
exist
and
what
type
of
platform
is
actually
we're.
Referring
to.
E
I
think
I
think
share
the
document.
It'd
be
hard
to
answer
any
questions
without
me.
Reading
it
because,
like
I,
don't
I,
don't
know,
I
think
that
the
the
conversation
I
was
having
I
think
was
a
Victor
on
on
slack.
This
past
week
was
around
the
idea
that
this
document,
the
idea
behind
this
maturity
model,
won't
be
perfect,
but
our
goal
is
to
make
it
so
that
what
technology
you
choose
and
what
technology
is
cool
today
and
tomorrow
doesn't
affect
the
durability
of
this
model.
E
So
if
you
want
to
be
having
a
data
platform
versus
a
software
application
engineering
platform
versus
this
platform,
it
doesn't
matter.
The
question
is:
is:
do
you
provide
things
as
a
service?
The
question
is:
is:
do
you
have
product
mindset?
The
question:
is
you
have
these
things,
so
my
my
gut
reaction
is:
we're
probably
wouldn't
enumerate
the
platforms
but
I.
That
is
very
much
based
on
assumptions
about
that
that
blog.
So
please
do
share
and
I'm
really
happy
to
change
my
opinion
on
that.
Based
on
what
it
says.
A
E
Think
if
we
leave
those
two
questions
now,
I
think
if
we
can
leave
here
with
everyone
feeling,
like
all
questions
have
been
raised
in
those
two
categories,
were
in
good
shape.
For
this
call
and
then
we'll
I'll
put
out
the
invite
for
next
Tuesday
to
go
into
each
of
these
in
detail.
Hopefully
with
people.
E
H
All
right
so
just
to
make
sure
you
want
us
to
be
aligned
on
the
aspects
first
and
then
going
back
and
then
agree
on
what
level
within
each
aspect.
We
should
describe
right
about,
expand
it
because
it
it's
already
down
there
in
the
dog
and
there's
a
lot
of
conversation
going
on.
As
you
mentioned
down
there,
I
I
see
now
you
to
be
fair.
For
the
past
week,
I
ignored
this
table
and
and
when
right
into
the
dock
into
the
you
know
into.
H
E
I
think
that
the
reality
is,
we
don't
have
the
time
today.
I
think
that
that's
what
we
want
to
try
and
do
next
Tuesday
as
much
as
I'd
love
to
dive
into
the
details.
I
also
know
that
Leanne's
been
doing
some
hard
work
on
the
website
and
that
these
Community
calls
are
really
good
for
making
sure
we
get
a
kind
of
broad
overview
of
what's
been
going
on,
so
that
we
can
do
the
Deep
Dives,
where
we
need
to
so
I
would
hold.
E
If
someone
feels
like
that,
like
we
ended
up
pulling
that
out
during
like
the
early
stages
even
before
we,
we
moved
it
into
like
public
review
here,
but
that
maybe
that's
the
kind
of
thing
I
mean
of
like.
Are
we
missing
any
major
categories
that
people
are
feeling
aren't
represented
and
I
know
that
we
have
a
few
that
have
been
talked
about
down
below
and
please
add
more
here
is
maybe
the
call
out
so
just.
H
E
F
Yeah
I
think
it's
good
I
appreciate
you
kind
of
calling
out,
like
I,
think
I
get
a
better
idea
of
like
kind
of
what
we're
looking
to
potentially
add
or
just
even
just
scrutinize,
like
okay,
like
what
what
may
be
missing
so
I.
Think
it's
something
good
for
us
to
think
about
going
into
the
next
meeting
on
Tuesday,
as
well
as
I.
Think
the
general
idea
of
like
platform,
maturity,
model,
I,
agree,
I,
think
Marsh
put
in
the
chat
that
he's
a
bit
wary.
I
also
feel
a
little
bit
wary
of
it.
F
I
think
I
think
it's
nice
that
it
can
kind
of
match
what
has
already
been
built
by
the
cloud
native
team
and
the
other
model
I
think
because
of
sort
of
what
you
called
out
with
like
you
may
be
on
one
and
one
component,
but
four
or
three
on
a
different
I.
Think
there
there's
just
maybe
a
different
word
to
be
able
to
use
that
just
kind
of
like
outlines
like
because
I
think
generally.
What
this
does
I
think
is.
F
It
gives
you
a
good
picture
of
like
where
might
I
be
at
in
different
areas
of
our
platform.
Engineering,
like
progression,
so
I,
think
having
some
way
it's
almost
kind
of
like
an
identifier
or
I,
don't
know
so.
I
I
think
it's
something
that
I
can
keep
thinking
about.
I
think
that
we
can
keep
thinking
about
going
into
the
next
meeting
on
Tuesday
yeah
I.
Don't
have
a
alternative
suggestion
as
of
right
now.
E
Yeah
cool
and
definitely
that
concept
has
been
codified
in
the
intro.
The
idea
that
you're
not
level
one
you
are
not
then
deemed
level
one
with
a
sword
on
each
shoulder
and
whatever
it
is
that
you
will
be
using
this
to
identify
where
you
are
so
yeah
all
right,
then
I'll
I'll
stop
sharing
for
now,
but
please
know
this
is
all
open
conversations
and,
as
was
mentioned,
this
is
something
we've
been
having
a
lot
of
Chats
on
in
the
comments.
E
C
Sure,
because
the
one
thing
about
the
the
platform
is
constant
change
right,
contrary
is
the
the
previous
generation
of
closed
Source
platform
so
which
I
I
don't
know.
I
have
a
look
is
through
all
the
details
which
part
of
this
table
talk
about
constant.
You
know
looking
out
for
the
field
anything
new
right,
such
so,
for
example
the
Dropbox
when
they
when
they
come
up,
they
just
do
it
on
top
of
aws3.
I
Sorry,
my
neighbor
just
decided
to
hammer
now
so
if
it
gets
too
loud,
just
let
me
know
and
I'll
close
the
window,
although
it's
really
hot
in
here
yeah
thanks
so
I
think
I'm
also
going
to
go
to
probably
every
working
group
and
just
see
if
I
can
present
this
idea
really
quickly
of
restructuring
our
website.
So
I
hope
you
can
all
see
my
screen.
This
is
how
our
website
looks
right
now.
Oh
wait!
No
wait!
That's
not
our
website
cncf,
including.
I
Yeah,
it's
Tech
app
delivery.cncf.io,
so
this
is
our
website
right
now,
there's
a
this
is
pretty
much
taken
from
the
repository.
Our
white
papers
are
here
and
then
there's
a
Blog,
and
the
original
idea
that
we
had
was
that
we
want
to
restructure
the
website
in
a
way
that
was
better
surface
what
we're
working
on
and
how
people
can
contribute.
Those
were
the
two
most
important
things
that
we
were
thinking
of
and
the
way
that
we
started
working
on
it
now
was
that
we
have
this
dock.
I
So
if
you
go
through
the
repository
by
the
way,
this
is
issue
410
and
everything
is
linked
in
this
issue
as
well,
but
yeah.
So
there's
this
document
and
we
are
just
discussing
the
kind
of
General
structure.
What
do
we
think
should
be
grouped
together?
You
know
like
where
do
stuff,
where
does
stuff
fit
in
and
now
I
also
started
working
on
a
prototype
whatever,
because,
like
this
is
a
nice
way
to
just
you
know,
free
from
any
kind
of
framework
or
structure.
Just
discuss
like
what.
I
What
do
we
think
makes
sense,
but
then,
of
course,
we
also
have
to
see
what
can
we
even
do
like
sidebar
navigation?
All
of
that
I
mean
it's
been
a
while,
since
I
was
a
front-end
developer,
so
I
would
like
to
keep
us
kind
of
in
the
confines
of
what
is
already
set
up,
but
basically
the
idea
would
be.
We
have
again
kind
of
like
a
landing
page
here
with
general
information.
Then
we
have
something
like
contribute,
so
we
would.
I
I
It's
PR,
416
and
feel
free
to
you
know,
contribute
commit
stuff,
I,
actually
don't
I
actually
don't
know
how
we
can
all
work
on
the
sample
request,
because
I
would,
you
might
have
to
go
to
my
Fork,
not
quite
sure
how
this
works,
so
I
haven't
haven't
done.
That
particular
thing
yet,
but
we'll
see
just
let
me
know
I,
can
give
you
access
to
this
repository
and
we
can
all
work
together.
I
A
I
Yeah
yeah
I
appreciate
that
I
think
I
agree
also
that
it's
really
just
because
also
when
we
discuss
the
website
in
the
general
meeting
of
the
tag,
then
we
were
discussing
you
know.
Maybe
we
should
like
look
at
the
charter
again,
so
really
that
has
helped
kind
of
kick
off
a
lot
of
General
thoughts
about
how
we
want
to
do
things,
and
you
know
what's
important
to
us
as
the
tag
to
Showcase
to
the
outside.
A
A
E
You
made
a
joke:
it's
not
as
cool
as
a
maturity
model.
I
think
this
is
way
more
impactful
than
any
one
project
like.
So
this
is
the
reason
I
posted
into
the
just
to
say.
The
reason
I
posted
into
the
original
item
on
GitHub
issue
on
GitHub
is
because
this
was
actually
the
first
thing
that
Taylor,
who
does
the
cncf
ecosystem
said.
Is
that
the
reason
that
there's
a
belief
that
the
platform
maturity
model
the
platform
white
paper
had
such
a
strong
reaction
and
uptake
in
the
in
the
group?
E
Not
only
because
it
was
like
a
hard
work
piece
of
documentation,
but
that
it
was
made
accessible
to
people
through
website
and
through
that
kind
of
visibility,
so
I,
and
he
was
highly
suggested
that
we
should
pull
more
people
in
from
that
website.
So
his
first
suggestion
around
the
maturity
model
was
to
get
it
up
on
the
website
for
a
review
as
soon
as
possible,
even
if
it
was
stated
as
like
under
review
or
whatever
so
yeah.
Definitely
I,
don't
don't
play
Down.
How
important
this
piece
of
work
is
because
I
think
it's.
I
I
think
you
know
what
now
that
you
said
that
maybe
what
would
be
actually
great
is
if
I
just
like
for
now
just
move
everything
that
we
already
have
on
our
website
right
now
and
put
it
on
the
new
website,
and
we
can
just
like
release
that
and
then
iterate
on
it
right.
There's,
no
reason
why
we
have
to
like
like
discuss
and
do
the
entire
thing
and
then
have
like
a
major
release
in
like
six
months
or
so
so,
maybe
like.
I
That
could
be
something
that
I
can
focus
on
for
for
now
to
just
make
sure
that
everything
is
on
a
website.
Right
now
is
in
the
new
structure.
We
go
with
a
new
structure,
and
then
we
can,
you
know
in
parallel,
still
discuss
other
things
that
need
to
go
on
the
on
the
website,
and
you
know
for
other
teams
to
join
us.
E
E
In
in
coding
of
like
make
the
change
easy
then
make
the
easy
change.
I
think
doing.
The
refactor
would
enable
more
people
to
engage
like
you
were
just
saying:
I,
don't
know
how
people
can
engage
on
my
fork
and
as
soon
as
we
get
the
refactor
of
the
new
structure
in
place,
all
of
a
sudden
people
can
make
suggestions
on
each
page
like
a
lot
easier
independently.
So.
A
J
Sure
I
was
thinking
of
sharing
it,
maybe
after
just
giving
the
time
and
I'll
run
through
kind
of
context
and
where
we're
at
and
how
people
can
participate
and
then
I'll
share
everything.
After
the
fact,
okay,
so
I've
been
working
with
Oliver
where's
Oliver.
Why
can't
I
see
you
on
my
screen
he's
there
somewhere?
Maybe
other
people
can
see
him
so
I?
You
know
coming
out
of
the
platform
the
original
platform
paper
product
mindsets
was
mentioned,
but
on
its
own
I,
think
it's
easy
to
agree.
J
It's
a
pretty
fluffy
concept
like
what
actually
does
product
thinking
mean
in
practice.
How
do
you
operationalize
it
in
an
organization?
What
does
that
look
like
and
how
does
that
actually
lead
to
any
meaningful
outcomes
that
a
business
cares
about?
That's
the
focus
of
our
paper
and
it's
very
much
complementary
to
Abby's
maturity
models
and
to
the
original
platform
paper.
That
kind
of
it
turned
out
organically
that
all
these
things
are
like
very
tightly
coupled
together
and
are
like
self-referential
and
refer
each
other.
J
So
we
wrote
a
draft
of
it
which
we'll
share
after
the
call
I
think
it's
at
the
place
now
where
it
would
very
much
benefit
from
other
people
taking
a
look
at
it,
and
we
also
launched
a
survey
to
recruit
Builders
of
the
platform
and
consumers
of
the
platform
that
we
can
actually
interview.
A
big
part
of
this
paper
is
to
get
real
insights
from
you
know:
practitioners
like
what
is
actually
happening
in
the
organization,
so
we
use
the
survey
to
recruit
those
folks
and
we
Josh.
J
We
very
much
need
a
boost
in
in
getting
that
out
more
widely,
so
we
can
get
more
participants
we're
in
the
process
now
of
just
going
through
the
first
kind
of
setting
up
the
first
couple
of
Builder
interviews
to
flesh
out
the
script
and
then
we're
going
to
bring
that
back
to
the
community
as
well
to
get
feedback
to
iterate
it.
So
we
can
go
wider
with
it
at
the
scale
we
want
to
do
it.
J
We're
definitely
going
to
you
know,
need
to
need
a
lot
of
help
in
like
pairing
up
and
running
interviews,
asynchronously
and
then
coming
back
together.
The
biggest
thing
for
those
interviews
is
a
is
a
is
the
structure
right.
We
want
to
tease
out
the
pattern
and
signals
from
these
interviews
of
what's
going
on,
and
that
requires
consistent
structure
to
like
how
we're
gonna
run
the
interviews.
So
that's
another
thing
we'll
share
out
once
it's
ready
to
get
feedback
on
after
the
paper
itself
and
Beyond
the
builders
and
consumers
right.
J
The
paper
first
to
start
getting
feedback
on
that.
Then,
once
we
go
through
just
the
first
kind
of
interview
to
shake
out
like
to
get
some
experience,
Hands-On
with
what
works,
what
doesn't
and
bring
that
interview
script
back
in
to
get
feedback
on
that
and
refine
it,
and
once
we,
you
know,
start
getting
into
the
Builder
consumer
interviews,
we're
also
going
to
do
pm
and
leaders
interviews
right
because
part
of
the
product
thinking
paper
isn't
just
how
does
this
play
out
on
your
platform
team?
J
Is
you
know?
What's
the
blueprint
like?
What's
the
what's
the
reality
of
your
organization?
Where
are
you
actually
at
and
what
can
you
do
about
it
to
get
to
a
better
place
right?
That's
like
a
fundamental
thing,
so
we're
going
to
go
out
into
the
world
and
see
what
that
looks
like
across
different
sizes
of
companies
and
different
regions.
J
E
I
would
be
curious,
like
it
I
think
I'm
under
the
I
think
I'm
aware
that
there's
been
basically
the
beginnings
of
a
paper
have
been
written,
but
the
way
it's
being
presented
is
that,
like
the
paper,
will
be
the
output
of
the
sort
of
interviews
that
we're
trying
to
curate
and
and
identify
so
I
guess.
One
question
I
have
is
like
where,
where
is
the
like?
J
Yeah
very,
very
good
question,
so
the
paper
is,
if
you
think
of
it,
as
Oliver
and
I
got
together
and
drafted
out
our
thinking
around
what
is
product
mindset
and
how
does
it
play
out
in
the
organization
and
how
do
you
operationalize
as
a
baseline?
The
idea
is
then,
to
go
into
the
real
world
and
talk
to
people
and
bring
those
structured
insights
back
and
then
it's
still
an
open
question.
What
is
the
relationship
in
terms
of
how
it
plays
out?
Is
it
going
to
be
it's?
J
You
know
the
the
interviews
are
going
to
kind
of
shape
the
sections
or
they're
going
to
be
examples.
Throughout
the
kind
of
structure
we
currently
have
still
very
much
an
open
question.
The
most
important
thing
is
that
the
end
result
is
something
that
you
know
a
person
can
consume
and
once
again,
yeah.
Usually
you
know
in
a
in
some
some
sense
of
a
leadership
role
where
they
can
take
this,
and
it
gives
them
a
better
understanding
with
concrete
examples
to
reinforce
what
works
and
how
you
get
there,
and
also
the
anti-patterns
right.
J
When
we
talk
to
people
we're
going
to
get
as
many.
If
not
more
examples
of
things
going
horribly
wrong
and
that's
invaluable
to
us
too
right,
we
want
to
bring
the
Anki
patterns
into
the
paper
and
show
the
people
on
on
the
wrong
path
or
misunderstanding
product
thinking
or
not
even
thinking
in
terms
of
a
product.
J
E
J
I,
don't
I,
don't
I,
don't
think
it's
that
valuable
on
its
own.
Like
it's,
it's
interesting,
yeah,
we'll
Define.
You
know
we
defined
product
thinking
how
to
operationalize
it.
What
that
looks
like
you
know
throughout
the
you
know
the
let's
say
the
maturity
of
the
platform
in
your
organization,
but
I
think
without
the
real
world
insights.
It's
just
for
this
specific
paper.
I,
don't
think
it's
as
impactful
I.
B
E
And
how
to
get
there,
and
so
the
blog
post
could
kind
of
potentially
tie
into
the
maturity
like
point
to
the
maturity
model
and
say
what
we're
looking
for
is
the
use
cases
so
come
talk
to
us
and
we
can
walk
through
the
maturity
model
with
you
have
conversations
about
it
whatever
and
like.
Maybe
we
can
try
and
drive
up
the
number
of
participants
through
through
that
I.
Don't
know
if
it's
helpful
basically.
J
Yeah,
no,
it
is
I,
think
a
blog
post
that
ties
in
the
original
platform
for
the
maturity
model
paper
and
the
scope
and
intent
of
this
would
be
like
a
very
nice,
concise
way
to
like
give
people
some
structure
and,
like
the
platform
paper
started
as
kind
of
like
one
thing,
with
an
undefined
future
and
now
we're
giving
shape
to
how
these
things
connect
and
like
the
value
this
brings
to
the
community,
so
I
think
absolutely
a
blog
post.
That
yeah
that
talks
about
that
would
be
would
be
probably
very
helpful.
F
Yeah,
just
for
clarity,
I
think
so.
I
think
I
had
a
misconception
in
my
head
that
the
surveys
were
informing
the
principles
that
you
talk
about
in
terms
of
the
mindset,
but
it
seems
like
kind
of
the
opposite
that
you've
got
like
general
principles,
sort
of
already
like
articulated,
and
that's
where
we're
kind
of
talking
about
this
blog
post,
where
you
can
like
articulate
some
of
those
principles
in
terms
of
the
mindset.
F
J
Yeah
so
necessary
bring
it
was
kind
of
like
a
we
wanted
to
go
out
into
the
world
and
recruit
people
and
Josh,
and
a
few
folks
already
wanted
to
do
a
survey
on
the
back
of
the
paper.
We
kind
of
melted.
The
two.
The
value
for
us
from
the
survey
is
really
like
a
snapshot
of
maturity,
just
enough
information
without
like
overloading
it
as
a
proxy
for
like
what
might
be
like
what
experience
this
person
who
we're
going
to
talk
to
has
in
the
kind
of
organization
they
come
from.
J
So
you
know
that
way
we
can
bucket
participants
around.
You
know
think,
let's
think
of
it
as
a
maturity
model
right
people
come
from
like
a
very
sophisticated
organizations
who
have
product
it.
You
know
tied
to
business
value.
The
product
is
a
strategic
initiative.
It
drives
the
business,
it
lets
the
business
nimbly
respond
to
the
market
and
everybody
gets
it
and
they
invest
in
it.
To
like
the
one-off,
you
know:
there's
some
documentation
somewhere,
but
talk
to
this
guy
to
like
get
help
with
anything
or
a
front-end
developer
has
to
like
go
deeper
into
delivery.
J
It's
just
to
get
stuff
out
the
door,
so
the
whole
Spectrum.
That
way
we
can
have
like
a
when
we
present
this
out.
The
idea
is
to
paint
a
picture
of
like
what
things
look
like
at
different
stages,
in
more
tangible
terms
and
what
you
need.
What
kind
of
thinking
like
that's
the
biggest
part
of
this
is
like?
What
kind
of
thinking
do
you
need,
and
how
do
you
actually
make?
You
know
operationalize
that
thinking
to
get
to
the
next
stage
right
to
get
to
certain
outcomes
in
the
in
the
business?
J
So
it's
beyond
just
like
the
platform
as
like
this
technical
tool
focused
on
technical
people
to
make
life
easier
for
other
technical
people.
It's.
This
is
a
incredibly
powerful
thing.
That
is
the
core
of
your
business
nowadays.
How
well
do
you
understand
that?
Do
you
understand
it?
How
do
you
operationalize
that
so
that
the
survey
was?
J
Was
that-
and
you
know
we're
obviously
going
to
be-
you
know-
reaching
out
to
people
in
more
senior
leadership
positions
outside
of
the
survey,
because
they
don't
reply
to
surveys
and
then
you
know
PM's
weren't
part
of
the
survey.
That'll
just
leave
us
an
open
call.
You
know
I'm
gonna,
pull
in
people
I
know
if
anybody
has
product
people
that
are
working
on
platforms.
J
Now
we're
going
to
want
to
talk
to
those
folks,
but
all
of
that
I'll
I'll
message
out
in
like
a
much
more
structured
way
of
like
where
things
are
and
a
take
on
how
folks
can
help,
which
is
obviously
open
to
any
kind
of
feedback.
Just
so
we
can
coordinate
a
little
better
and-
and
you
know,
continue
recruiting
folks
interview
folks
and
then
get
people
from
the
community
who
want
to
participate
to
pair
off
and
run
the
interviews
themselves.
There's
no
way
we
can
do
all
of
them
or
want
to.
G
Yes,
Michael:
can
you
hear
me
Michael
yeah,
so
basically
I
think
I
really
like
the
idea.
That's
really
really
reasonable
and
really
really
really
important
to
the
work
we
actually
were
doing
here.
So
what
my
recommendation
would
be.
So
actually
what
we
can
do
is
like
I
see
some
of
the
other
Community
member
regarding
this
group.
What
they
do
is
they
have
a
Weekly
Newsletter
where
they
pull
in
the
article
and
information
related
to
the
subjective.
G
They
actually
quantify
I'm,
actually
looking
for
the
reason
reasonable
answer
from
the
community
and
at
the
end
of
the
newsletter,
they
asked
question
around
some
particular
subject
and
then
a
variable
can
generate
opinion
on
top
of
it,
similar
you're
so
like
survey
to
help
to
help
people
to
fill
in
the
survey.
It's
a
very
tricky.
We
often
I,
don't
even
spend
time
for
the
surveys,
but
I
think
having
a
blog
post
or
some
newsletter
thing
can
give
us
a
visibility.
G
J
B
E
And
I
would
just
say
making
sure
that
your
experiences
and
knowledges
get
fed
into
the
maturity
model.
So
so
yes
I,
agree
100
on
the
alignment,
but
please
don't
consider
that
a
one-way
task,
because
I
think
that
there
is
definitely
like
some.
Some
movement
happening
on
the
maturity
model
for
good
reason
and
I
want
to
make
sure
that
y'all
bring
that
into
it.
So
yeah.
A
K
K
J
You're,
a
good
call,
if
you
I
mean
do
you
have
some
some
thinking
around
what
that
could
look
like
I
think
when
we
Josh
remind
me
when
we
talked
about
it,
we
ran
it
by
a
lawyer
here
to
just
get
immediate
feedback,
but
yeah
pretty
much
any
stronger,
more
emphatic
way
that
we
can
say
that
literally
right
now,
only
two
people
are
going
to
review
this
and
when
it
is
shared
out,
it's
going
to
be
entirely
anonymized
and
then
it
will
not
live
beyond.
You
know
publishing
this
information.
J
A
J
A
J
J
Yeah
yeah
I,
don't
think
we
need
to
like
we
can
iterate
on
it
like
in
the
long
term,
when
we
like
come
back
and
rerun
this,
as,
like,
a
snapshot
of
you
know
future
recruiting
of
like
where
their
maturity
is
as
a
company,
but
right
now
for
like
what
we
need,
we
have
so
many
other
things
to
do.
I
just
wanted
like
I
want
the
wider
audience
for
it.
I
want
more
people
to
opt
in
and
say.
Yes,
please
I'm
happy
to
talk
to
you
for
40
minutes.
A
G
To
say
yes,
yes,
absolutely
I,
think
that
can
be
done
absolutely,
but
I
think
like
what
I
do
today
like
before
meeting
with
this
group
today,
I
actually
hosted
a
Twitter
space
to
generate
some
awareness
and
I've,
also
posted
some
tweets,
so
that
skull
is
actually
happening.
So
three
of
the
folks
member
will
be
actually
trying
to
do
the
same
thing.
Whenever
we
have
a
meeting,
we
can
actually
Post
in
the
LinkedIn
Twitter
handle
as
well,
but
we
can
do
connect
with
the
mark,
the
cncf
team
that
has
Cloud
networking
the
cloud
native
Weekly
Newsletter.
G
They
have
some
infos
like
how
to
communicate
with
the
folks
like
what
email
do
we
use?
Even
we
can
use
like
I,
think
the
K
cities,
events
that
happening
in
every
week
or
every
month
we
can
actually
pitch
in
our
talks
like
this
is
CNC
working
group
and,
if
I
think
one
is
happening
in
kcd
taxes
and
I.
Think
one
of
the
team
members
from
this
these
working
group,
his
name-
is
Ali
Ibrahim,
who's
actually
hosting
this
event.
So
I've
communicating
with
him
like
to
post
these
things
in
your
kcd
event
as
well.
J
B
G
Yes,
I'm,
just
saying
like
we
can
generate
really
small
events,
can
create
even
tussle
up
to
the
good
audience
that
actually
we're
looking
for,
but
I.
Think
like
the
like,
whenever
I
do
a
podcast
with
my
YouTube
channel
I,
try
to
invite
people
on
this
working
group
like
I,
have
I
have
discussed
with
Alexis
Richardson
he
joined
today,
but
he's
actually
had
a
conflicted
call
and
he
mentioned
I
will
be
in
the
next
car,
so
I
think
like
kcd's,
even
commenting
on
some
people's
posting
like
hey,
we
are,
you
are
actually.
G
If
you
have
the
same
opinions,
please
join
this
working
group
or
some
do
regular.
Posting
I
think
like
like
for
George,
like
I,
think
the
blog
post
or
the
meeting
minutes
like
what
we
actually,
we
can
actually
take
a
script
out
of
the
YouTube
and
the
push
to
post
it
on
the
website,
and
then
I
include
this
into
the
cloud
native
Weekly,
Newsletter
I
think
this
will
might
lift
up
some
people
to
be
participated
in
here.
J
Right
I
think
maybe,
based
on
everything
that
you
said
like
the
next
kind
of
well
like
be
laboring,
is
the
next
like
quickest
thing
that
we
could
do
to
get
wider
dissemination
is
a
blurb
on
why
you
know
which
we
already
have
like
on.
Why
we're
doing
what
we're
doing,
with
the
link
to
the
survey
that
can
go
into
these
groups
that
are
running
physically
or
virtually
or
anywhere
right
and
we'll
see
what
the
uptick
is
from
that
you
know
as
like
a
next
immediate,
like
very
quick
thing,
we
can
do.