Cloud Native Computing Foundation TAG App Delivery / Cooperative Delivery WG, 17 Aug 2023

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From YouTube: 2023-08-17 WG Platforms - Maturity Model Project

Description

TAG web site: https://tag-app-delivery.cncf.io/
TAG Slack channel: https://cloud-native.slack.com/archives/CL3SL0CP5
TAG git repo: https://github.com/cncf/tag-app-delivery
TAG meeting notes: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OykvqvhSG4AxEdmDMXilrupsX2n1qCSJUWwTc3I7AOs/edit

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C

Been good, I think I'm good. It's uh it's been a big day, yeah a lot of big days but they're like good days where it might seems we're just getting cooking, I'm sure I'm liking. What we're going right now right, um yeah! It's just been really cool.

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Got Victor: let's go.

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So just you know: we've currently are in recording mode, um but we can choose whether or not we want to keep recording mode. We can choose, we can choose to keep recording mood mode and then choose not to share recording like so totally up to you. It's your show I'm here as a attendee, but I just letting you know that's like by default on this Zoom room it records and then Josh helps get it onto the YouTubes yeah.

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C

Very indifferent, I can record it, I think better, have it and who knows someone wants it and they can handle it or nobody wants it and it just hangs out on The Ether. So.

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C

Okay, uh so I do I, do have editing permissions. Now, let's go.

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B

Good sorry about that I seem to have screwed up a bunch of those. So.

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um You were good and that Google Drive is tricky.

C

Okay, so right, what is the goal of this? The goal of this is to kind of make more Headway on the investment portion.

C

um I'm, not the best writer, so I'm, trying to at least get thoughts signed uh onto Doc and make sure that the thoughts kind of aligned not necessarily having it all word snipped out, I, don't think that's the goal of this, but rather just making sure that the general concepts are kind of maybe a bit more determined and then from there. I can do quite a bit more wordsmithing kind of figuring out um yeah I. Put these ideas together.

C

um Is that this sound good to you too?.

B

Sounds like what I'd expect for the current stage of things. So, just as like a recap of what I'm as the I guess, project manager-ish person for this stuff is like I. Don't expect I'm, hoping that there will be a Clarity of ideas by I. Think it's next Tuesday when we might be a week from Tuesday uh when we have a call to kind of go through the detailed sections across the board.

B

Where, like we can start to see the differences in the way people have tackled it and where we need to find alignment and and those kind of things, um and then there's another week or two before I'm, hoping to have a Clarity in like also format.

B

So the idea of spending today making sure that you're you're getting feedback on and and building your um kind of topics for the different sections seems spot-on to me for for where we're at in the process. So all good from my side.

C

um Okay, so maybe we can start out the kind of description and kind of go from there, so I just kind of took some time last night to just sort of like get some ideas a bit more documented down, um and then I have like old thoughts from uh the last draft that I just kind of threw in here to at least kind of get some of the the brain juices flowing, even though they don't necessarily correlate all the way to something to kind of be thinking about, um but for the description at least I kind of started out with like some type of um definition of like well.

C

What are we classifying investment as um I, just kind of used to expend the money effort or time with the expectation of achieving a goal?

C

um It's pretty broad but I think it kind of hits why we chose to do investment instead of funding instead of it just being more of like uh one dimensional like it could Can it can take many forms.

C

um How do you feel about at least that kind of start to it? Sean? Okay, all.

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From there so I was gonna leave room for Victor in case.

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I think that's I read that you you've had that there for a little while now and I just thought that was perfect, like when I saw it I thought the you captured exactly as you just summarized the difference between investment and funding and why investment is I, think the term that everyone felt more comfortable with and I. Think you did that really well so yeah.

C

I thought this, since this might have been a little redundant because I know we make this claim about it. Not being one size fits all in the previous section. So I don't know if this really needs to be there, um I just have it in there, um but yeah I, don't know I.

B

Think that it's a good shout and I think you're right. We we are reiterating that, but I don't think it's bad to reiterate, but maybe can we make it? Maybe we can make it a bit more specific. So something like like that, because different companies have different levels of resources to spend you'll find that uh a company may be more heavily in like time uh may may invest a lot of time and build it themselves. Whereas another company, who has has more I, mean it's not English, but.

A

uh It has more in.

B

Their coffers uh can can just buy it right. So you like what you're the high level is, making it specific to the fact that money, effort and time are differently allocated across companies, because they are differently collected across companies, and so that can indicate how people choose to to go about things. So yeah.

C

Yeah I, like that a lot um yep that sounds good, so just really trying to make a bit more relevant to the overall topic, instead of keeping it broad like this, like we had previously, um that sounds good um yeah and then some type of bridge over to this to the levels uh like probably mix this up a bit more based off of what's set up here, um but anything else you guys think needs to be included within the description.

C

um What do you guys think this is uh I think this is at least a bit more of like a I, think this concept doesn't need a ton of explainings I. Don't want to go Overkill I'm like really going hard on, like what is investment, I, think people kind of understand it just once you kind of label it um but I'm wondering if it makes more sense to talk about this further.

D

Yeah for me, I think it's great I I mentioned a lot from this kind of discussions that every organizing I think learning both uh technical management as well as language English, so uh yeah I think this is good.

B

Yeah I think um just to add to that I agree. I, think it's really good. I think that the the second paragraph is one of those ones that we're going to decide. What we do is a like consistency with the paper like.

B

Do we always put in a paragraph similar to that or a sentence similar to that or not which so I think leave, definitely leaving it there as a discussion Point, that's the kind of thing I want to try and talk about in that, like across aspects, detail session that we're going to do in like a week and a half, because, like that's what we have to just get alignment on, how how do we like how it reads?

B

How do we think you know yeah the consumability of this paperwork so just to call out I think that's a really well written sentence. We just have to decide. Do we do sentences like that or not as a group, um the only other thing that I the other thing. That is a high level kind of format, question but I could imagine being useful. Is.

B

And I, don't think I could imagine the sentence right. This second I think it's something. We'd have to come back and add in once we got a little bit more comfortable with each level is I wonder if there's a sentence or two where we summarize the evolution.

B

So we don't talk about any one level, but we kind of go. What you'll find with this evolution is a and like. So my current thinking for this aspect is there's like a broadening of what costs there's a a clarifying of what costs are allocatable to the to the platform effort and also a broadening in some way so you're you're sort of narrowing in broadening, but clarifying, like that's sort of the the maturity I see here like at the beginning. It's like oh I, pay, someone to build me a platform and.

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At the end and.

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Then, like at the end, what I'm talking about is like I'm, investing in the outcomes that this product helps achieve and that's like that might mean hiring a Content marketing person which, like, if you talk to somebody who's in level, one about content marketing person for like their internal platform. They would laugh you off the street, maybe but before would as well given their context, but like you could imagine that in level four versus you can't even like talk about it level.

B

One and that's so I think having a think about what we want from these opening paragraphs.

C

I think you're gonna sound like you're um the specificity that sounds like even deeper than just like a summary. It sounds like almost like uh you're kind of including like application in there and like what it could practically look like. uh Were you just giving an example, or are you just wanting to keep it to like surface level summary of the levels yeah.

B

Yeah I hear what you're saying so my example, I gave like a Content marketer was to clarify my intention of the sentence. I would not right now. My current thinking I would not want that example at this level, but I was I, realized that my my ex my attempt at writing, a sentence that would be at this level was pretty poor and so I was trying to like clarify the intention, so that, like you and I and Victor could like be on the same page and then like.

B

How do we write a good sentence for that? So the the thing I could so just to confirm. The thing I could see at this level is a sentence which summarizes the feeling of evolving through this through this stage, and this is something that I think we need to decide as a group. Do we want that kind of evoking of emotion of movement for every aspect, because I think we either do it for every or none? And if and talking about an example for this aspect, I think it has to do with that.

B

Like maturity comes with with um being more, this is me a terrible sentence. Maturity come in this aspect comes with having more open-mindedness about where costs may be incurred to be successful, with platforms, while at the same time clarifying who truly should be paying the costs of platform offerings like so it's like that clarification and also broadening of it. That's the kind of sentence. I could see um foreign just thought about that as I would not I'll be honest. I would not have thought about that type of a sentence.

B

Had you not written that second paragraph and I like this, and that Drew me into this idea of like oh, what are we trying to achieve in this opening paragraph? Is it like or opening like statement? Is it just? What does investment mean? Or is it also?

B

What is this progression like, or is it also yeah and so question mark.

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C

Think that's good enough to say something it kind of draws to it, um but yeah I really like that as well.

C

Okay, good questions um I, like that, it's a good start um and they're smashing like retaken specifically with this. This I think can definitely be struck beforehand.

C

um I think maybe even in a talent at this could even be done within this. um Even if we end up removing it uh in the next uh meeting we decide. We don't want to go with this. It's at least something that could help even even the rest of the flow of this it could kind of having us our own internal label, the feelings um so I think that's good as well, and then yeah.

C

This is something we need to talk about across the board um cool, that's good stuff, I like that good start, all right level, one um yeah so I think just generally, maybe before I just dive into level, one so I mean I had really kind of contemplated, like okay do I. Now that we've got some things set, do I actually like really like agree with these things um and yeah I I believe I do um I believe I. Definitely like I think difference between this, and this um kind of makes sense to me.

C

I think it'd probably be good to like Define like what is a technical cost center.

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Meanings but if I understand the currency, I think it makes sense um and the difference between that and a product budget makes sense. I think this is where I was getting lost. So I was like off.

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Etc, how is this different than a on.

C

Its budget, uh so I just put a question mark So, I think maybe before hopping into wine, maybe getting like a bit more clarity about- maybe maybe that's just a good place to start with each of them. It's just having just a general definition of them, so they're just clear and then maybe diving into the symptoms of of what that would probably look like what do you guys think cool all right? So, let's start with one we can kind of go down um so voluntary or.

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Temporary and they might, let me go back to editing mode um definition.

C

I mean I think it's kind of self-explanatory on this one right like it's um uh definition of this may be um not yeah. That's a good question. It's a lot easier to kind of think about symptoms of it than the actual definition of what it is.

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B

It's I think one thing that's interesting about this. One, that's different from other squares is that it's two different words with a lot of the other ones.

B

It's like one concept and I think that the intention behind that is that, like we, we were on the phone phone that, like one day when we were talking about this stuff and somebody was like well, we do this when, like we're not on clients, we work on our platform, but like we're being paid to do it like we're being told like this, is what you should do when you're not on a client we're getting our salary and like.

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We're being paid to do it, so it's not voluntary because it started as voluntary as the only word, and it was like true but like you're only doing that until your client then will bill bill for you again like or you can bill again for your client, so like you're temporary, which has a very similar effect, which is like it's sort of a best effort situation.

B

So maybe that's actually a better word for this rather than voluntary or temporary. Maybe it should be best. Efforts like I'll. Add that as a comment here like um but regardless, if we want to change the actual name, that's the like. Maybe that's the definition of something around best efforts.

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C

Can you can you explain that a bit more sorry.

B

That's probably British I I sometimes lose track of what's British and what's American uh I'm sort of caught in that like just enough years here that, like it seems normal to me now, um so thank you for asking um so best efforts, meaning uh like best intentions, like people genuinely like care, but there is nothing which is like tied to their like long-term success, career growth um expectations, career ladder uh like budgeting for the next year, if they're like in charge of a budget, if they're a budget holder like there's, basically there's not that sort of like thread of long-term kind of Engagement, with a thing it's sort of like people pop in and pop out, it's actually a I would I would argue as like.

B

A good example is the work we do with the cncf working group, like all of us that are involved, is on our best efforts like um way of working. So we all we pop in when we can and we do the best you know we we offer what we can, but then, when something else, pops up, we sort of go I'm out for a couple weeks. I think I've got to go. Focus on this other thing, I'll be back when I can, and it's sort of like that.

B

That would be a good description of a best efforts, I think. um But it's striking me that that's probably not a good thing to change the title to if it doesn't, because if it's not clear to people what that means, so yeah.

C

So I think to try to interpret what you're saying it sounds like um level, one that, at this provisional stage, that it sounds like you're when it comes to investment. It's really like uh Hey like if this is a priority, um it may be.

C

It's not necessarily very well documented, like this is exactly what level priority and how it aligns with strategic goals is, but this is something that we would like to be done um and when it comes to like actually investing in that goal, yeah it may go as far as like you telling someone hey, you should pay attention to this um and fulfill this. This. You know tactical goal, there's not really a lot of conversation about. What does this actually look like in the Strategic long term? Is that.

B

Kind of right, I think tactical, is a very good use of words here. um Yes, I think that's that's a very good use of words.

C

Okay, so strictly tactical approaches to the platform, maybe like a means to an end like there's, there's a maybe like a shorter term goal or a customer that we're trying to help right and it may be around until you know that short-term goal is reached. But there's not really a longer term plan destined for this yeah.

B

It's sort of the like it's putting out. Fires is like more the thought process. Like oh there's, a fire over there. We've got to put it out, okay like invest until that fire is out and then stop a bit and then like move on kind of thing. Yeah like.

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Yeah I'd put that in parentheses, I.

B

Think this is like the hard part is like in some cases, it'll be just pure firefighting and in other cases it might be just lack of investment like they don't really see a huge benefit in improving the developer experience and therefore they just sort of chip away at it. Like it's going to be different experiences, but like it's, that idea of, like oh they're, just tactically like chipping away at things like.

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As and when they need to or or have, availability to, not because there's been like a more strategic, longer term investment into something.

C

I'm, making this phrase up.

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C

The phrase I'm thinking about is like tactical instrument like something that's like kind of labels to similar. We got like technical cost center product budget profit Center, and it's not only that the current configuration or a second, oh, my God, there you go um voluntary or temporary. It's it's fundamentally, not even just that. There's two words: it's fundamentally different in a lot of ways where we're labeling it with like a uh I, don't know if pronouns the right word but like there's a this is this is like I would say.

C

This is a these are all nouns. While these are all um adjectives.

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C

Adverbs, voluntary or one of the.

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B

Sorry lived in two English native speaking languages.

A

But I do not know that uh yeah.

B

I see what you're saying so, the one thing I would say is: if you want to the reason why we're spending time on the details is I expect that the work on the details will improve the table. Just to be clear, the words that we wrote on that table were our best efforts. There you go.

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With the table.

B

And as we as we get into the the weeds of writing these details, we will identify where there are misalignments. You know poor, poor choice of words Etc, so I don't want to discourage changing the words, but I do want to make sure we surface those in the right way, because that's slightly different than the details so um definitely throw that in there as like, either a suggestion or as like a comment so that people can and I'm wondering. If we want to uh try and think about how we can get that into the like.

B

You can sort of make a comment on the spreadsheet that is the or on the.

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B

I mean the uh version two. So if you go into version two like I think it might be at the top of the page, you can click into the platform maturity model. There.

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Go yeah and then I think.

B

If you highlight the word in there, voluntary or temporary I think you'd be able, which I just did so I'll undo. That I think you can add a comment there or add a suggestion there and that that that will drive a much more effective conversation because it'll be more visible to more people. um For that. But yeah.

C

That's just an idea: I'll.

B

Just add a yeah.

B

This may align better with the way um the tone of the other level titles uh without changing the intention.

B

B

Cool I'm, just adding a bit of context to the suggestion and then yeah I think that's that's great. That will hopefully Drive the right conversation and so um yeah.

C

Even if that's not the right phrase, I think something that can kind of align because I really like the rest of these I, like the idea of it um I think it's just trying to get this insane so yeah. That sounds good, um so, regardless of that, I think this. This at least gives like a bit of a definition. What do you guys think about this, like just kind of like a means to an end, um strictly tactical approach to um building the platform or having Engineers around um okay to.

A

Investing in the platform there you go.

C

um And then description just made the way. Oh.

B

Yeah the power of of edit and suggesting is always like.

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C

A

Yeah um description and then I can there we go. Okay, that's better cool yeah, I'll.

C

Probably keep it in this format, so descriptions of this is that yeah, maybe not a lot of prioritization from the executive level.

C

um Solving Organization for employees on the ground floor, I didn't really like the phrase I used here. Some organization from employees run for, like the actual workers.

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B

uh The bottom up is often the phrase.

A

That's used there. You go in the bottom bottom valve employees from the bottom up bottom up, yeah! That's.

B

A I'm not sure that's a great phrase, but that's definitely the one I that comes to mind first, when it's, when you use that kind of idea there you go. This is.

C

Some of your organization from about um serves a temporary purpose without much thought about fits into the longer term plans.

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Initiatives, I should receiving initiatives.

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B

Just added one at the end, there I think it's the idea that, because this is bottom up, you may have like a team.

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Over there building.

B

Something team over there building something they may or may not confuse each other.

C

B

With each other inflate each other, whatever right so um yeah.

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B

Out of curiosity are, is your you mentioned that you wanted to get ideas down, so you didn't want a word Smith yet, and then you mentioned oh I, think I'm going to keep it in this format. This definition description is your vision.

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B

This paragraph or bullet point yeah.

C

Sorry, you said.

B

C

Keep it in this format just for this session, just keeping this decision progress like this and then kind of mapping it to uh paragraphs. What's the idea I'm open-minded, though yeah.

B

No I'm I I had had paragraph Was what used before, so that was my default Behavior, but I'm actually curious. If other people come back with bullet points and I think that might be again a good conversation to have in the next like in the like, aligning session right, because what I'm hoping is everyone will start to like have talked about what their details are, which is, then, you can start to see the like level of depth. They go to the formats they go to like these kinds of things. Then we can be like.

B

Oh boy, I didn't do that kind of depth. Oh I use a different format. Okay. What do we now? Let's talk like that, so no pressure in either direction. It's just something I noticed so I'm yeah very happy with either um well.

C

Said yeah, probably uh and I I, like the idea of.

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C

We can go back into the history because I kind of like the idea of having the bullet points somewhere even in case like we decide if we music, we're like man, can I have some bullet points that actually be good yeah. So I don't have to go back. I'd, say I, think you can go into history somewhere in there, industry I.

B

Don't know you can yeah, you can yeah.

A

Yeah, okay, uh yeah.

B

There it is I, see, okay, exactly so, it's all there um and what you can do is when you get done with this call, we can make a named version, so you could always come back to.

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The end of this call time period.

B

As well, if you want but sorry.

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B

Being bad I'm pulling you too far away from.

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Your intention of the call these.

C

Are good thoughts I'm with it um Okay, so we've got kind of some of that anything else that we want to add to the description, I assume as writing. Stars, probably more stuff, maybe added but I- think we're kind of getting the essence here. I.

B

C

Okay, anything you got Victor.

D

B

I mean I I, always.

D

Think that the the um previous uh tables hot skin look perfect for me multiple times over kind of start over again so um yeah I I. It's really hard to pick any um found in it and looks, looks good.

A

Okay, let's keep rolling then so. Similarly, we'll do a definition for this one.

A

um In the description.

C

uh So technical call center, so yeah kind of what I pulled from this. If I had to Define this, um uh there there's there's some intentionality right so now, there's like deliberate from from the top of like okay we're going to allocate these many resources, um but the way that the resources are allocated still maybe short-sighted.

C

um It's not thinking of the platform as like what we're going to get to like a true product, but rather as a um uh yeah thanks for that. That's helpful.

B

Yes, I'm listening I just figured I'd.

C

A

C

Good um but yeah trying to translate it into like what is like we're seeing this as like a genuine priority that has like a value stream. It affects real people and brings about real value.

C

um How do I say that, though, do you guys agree with that? What how did you guys see technical cost, centers.

B

I think, um from my perspective, this is about um there's still a perception of sort of putting out fires versus which is to your point of that, like tactical versus strategic, like you're. Still in the Tactical point of view, I think you said that and I would agree with that. uh I think that the the thing at this stage is that you likely see it as a cost to be minimized.

B

So you likely see this as like. It's an it's a necessary. You know, phrases that come to mind. Are it's a necessary evil? So it's a thing you must do, but you don't particularly enjoy the amount of money you have to spend on it or um that it is a like.

B

Yeah I think just that idea of like um it's a high cost that people view as a as something that they want to reduce the cost of as much as possible. um Often.

D

Yeah so I think the the whole um idea of the model is for someone like on the VP level uh to take a look and see where they are right. So the description like, for example, the level one description, uh all that it can be sort of Matrix that a VP use to say or where we are right now so level one will be. You know where just people randomly trying things they're starting things level.

D

Two um now that we have a kind of platform going on, so people are starting to spending because because the investment is just like is put it's not just money right, it's also time ever and all that so A lot of people are starting to get interested and seeing all this is good, so we're starting to put effort into it. Now that become a cost center, because this is not something we can just ignore, because there are too many people spending time on it and some even invest money in it.

D

So that's why yeah I think the cost center I understand like that.

B

I like that Victor, because that's that, like necessary part like at this stage, people know it's necessary. They know they have to pull together all these efforts that are happening that are costing time and money, but aren't cohesive and aren't pulling in the same direction and that's the necessary part and the evil like the necessary. But evil um is like that idea of like, but they don't yet see it as a like, uh broadly uh improving thing. They see it as like a cost that they have to pay um yeah.

D

Yeah is this: is this really helping, or is this kind of distracting from the main business drivers yeah.

A

Almost done, okay.

C

Yeah I like that. So if I had to try to Define all that.

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A

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C

Think we've got so I think maybe you're starting this description may lead into this. So to try to cover what you guys said. So you guys kind of know how to describing I try to kind of I like that point picture of like they've. Had this really monetary point of view, but it may not be like man. How are we actually organizing people? What is like the longer term goal of this project?

C

um It's just kind of outlined here not really think about the longer term goals uh and how.

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C

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C

A

Integrates with the company's strategic production.

C

um Yeah I've just seen as costs employees are intentionally spending time building the platform, but that time is to be used as minimally as possible, so they can work on things yeah. What do you guys think about this I added this last night? That time is like it put the time in that you need to. But after you know, it's done just get away and like do the do the other things that really like bring in the money.

C

Yeah so I'm trying to kind of get more components of it than just like. You know. That is yes, it's a cost center, but it's also the perception on humans or um time and effort Investments yeah uh yeah may not be prioritized as well.

B

I so the thing here that I, so the reason I, was thinking deeply about it, because I really liked the sentence, but I wasn't sure if I felt like it fit better at level one or level two. So the reason why I was having that thought is because at level one it's like that idea of like the platform is just the thing you have to do, because you have to do it, but then you get back to the other work and that's what triggered.

B

Oh is this level one, but actually I can see with a very small tweak, this being really really effective as level two in that idea, that, like there is um at level two you're likely thinking about the quickest way to solve a problem versus a like, more investment heavy, but impact High way of doing it.

B

So what I'm thinking about is like you need to go, do something to a server you're, probably doing it manually at this stage and maybe you're getting someone to talk like you're you're talking someone into the idea of doing it via like the API. So you can do it automatically, but that's like you're you're, definitely not creating like a self-service way of doing that, right, yeah and so like, because that, because you just don't see that value in investing in that next kind of level of interaction, um yeah. So very interesting idea, though,.

C

Yeah I like that, a lot- that's all said: okay, those are all good things to think about anything that you guys would add to these descriptions and think I can kind of think about this, a bit more and add a better definition, but for now maybe continue to kind of move. I think we got a good description that should bring us to a logical conclusion for how to define it.

C

Okay, that being said, let's move on to three products budget, hmm so yeah I think this is obviously where you're getting a lot more strategic you're thinking about how does this align with the company's overall priorities um as you're doing budgetary planning? The platform is not just considered as like an expense, but now this is a um like. You know product that we need to like have like intentional investment with not just for short-term effects, but for the longer term goals um in thinking about the other stakeholders that are included in that in those decisions.

C

um I didn't really understand this I think I took this round one past versions, but then it's got with a separate building. I think I assume that, because it's a product like thinking of it as like a product is what's trying to be conveyed here. I.

B

Think that came from a past version and I can describe it a little bit. um Yeah, it is I can see it under past version. The first sentence there yeah just just clarify my own thoughts, um so the the idea here is that uh at the time when, when the the table was in a different shape, one of the ways in which you're describing funding was the idea that, like at level at one level, the cost of the platform is, is like.

B

50 like at a small company, might be 50 000 a month and it'd be like, and that includes about 40 000 in like AWS Bill and like 10 in humans, or you know, even more so 45 in AWS and five in humans, or something right like that's sort of where you're at. But you see, the cost of that platform is 50, and you see those like three humans who are like Herculean effort to like hold it all together, as costing you 50 000 a year and or a month, I meant and you're.

B

Just like that's ridiculous versus the next level. The idea is like we spend this much on infrastructure, so we spend 45 000 on infrastructure at a small company. That's a lot of money. We need to talk about how to be more cost effective, and this is.

A

B

Much we spend on the humans that are doing this work and the amount of Leverage those humans have way out, pays their salaries right like, and so you no longer are putting pressure on those humans to like do more you're. Not you.

A

B

At that you know kind of thing so that that was the intention I'm not saying it was well done, or it was right. We moved on from that. But but that was the intention. I.

C

Like the idea, though, I think the idea makes sense and so I think primary way to rephrase that is um maybe even like the value of the platform platforms, efforts, um platforms, uh uh the value of the platform as well as its expenses are.

C

um What I want to say is like a thought about in a much more like, measured or appropriate um uh way right like it's possible for you to absolutely be spending way too much money on a platform right or on platform engineering efforts, um but if you're not really going through and doing like a good like analysis of what are what is the value of that the platform is bringing or what?

C

What are we like losing from the platform and having a good like with metrics involved and stuff, like that, uh if you're not doing those calculations, you're not really gonna know what is the overall impact? You know you're just you're going yeah you're, maybe even just looking at your expenses we're losing this money. Yeah.

B

That's a really good point about measurement, because I'm, just opening up and looking up at the the table and like measurement at that level at level three and again we're not asking people to always measure themselves as level three for everything at the same time, but it these things should be reasonably aligned so that people can see that they would be a level three.

B

If they're doing all these things or whatever is quantitative and qualitative driving uh measurement driving high level objectives like that is what you're, describing as the behavior in your investment and and what qualitative and quantitative metrics. Are you talking about you're talking about the ones that are cost related and that's because we're in the investment level, so I think that's. Actually it's a good indicator that this is a that we're on the right track.

B

I think um I think that the the thing that I would focus on the most if I were you here is the word product, because it's like with a product. There is all sorts of additional like thought process. It's products are optional.

B

Products are uh require, selling and supporting in a way that is maybe different than like a script or a like service that you offer a manual service that you offer like so I. Think that's like one of the big changes. That's that's happening in this level. Is that like product mindset, um yeah and.

A

The costs associated.

B

With the product mindset.

A

That's mindset I, like that word mindset, yeah.

C

Yeah I like that, just really thinking about how to Market this project distribute this product um at what rate at what time? You're really kind of thinking through the details for um how to like consider this product, okay, yeah I, think that's good stuff.

C

um Anything else that you guys would add to the description here.

D

Yeah I'm, just adding my understanding of this thing, uh so I think there's a talk about the minimal viable products as a concept. I think that should be level like level two thing: I think that's one or things are being this, so this is because this is mostly a platform is a combination of Open Source and some other services right. So so so in level, two there's a minimum reliable products and in level three that's one. uh The management sees that okay. This is actually good.

D

This is, is this is different from what we typically have. As you know, off-the-shelf uh products. This platform thing actually has a potential to give us a competitive Advantage, but of course, to realize that Advantage as level four right. So at this point, uh so that's so so yeah. So the last sentence here says uh you already have it here is giving strategic planning that aligns the company overalls priority, so so yeah so I already so. Management already realized that the it has a really a strategic value in it. In this platform,.

A

C

Yeah I, like that, it sounds like if I'm, if I've got you right, this is between in terms of like um I, think it sounds like we're kind of talking about some of like the outcomes almost or no well, because you sorry to just make sure I understand what you said is that, um instead of having like in two right, we might use some like generic Solutions like to you know, build on this platform, we're gonna start using kubernetes, or something like that right, we're just starting to kind of throw tools at it, you're really thinking in level three.

C

How can we really use these tools to start to like solve real strategic, practical um problems that that, uh whatever you know, part of the company is having? Is that? Does that sound kind of.

D

Like yeah yeah, yes, yeah yeah, two two is really just um having some project. That's going with it, but doesn't know. Okay. This is really going to be the direction our company needs to go to right so but level, three, it's a product, because uh products one set is one way to describe it. But but basically saying this thing is good. This could be something that's going to create value, a strategic value or for our organization, so it'd be worth the investment as a budget.

B

Yeah I think I really like that separation between two and three, as like the realization of like the investment and is like having return and those kinds of things the one earlier on. In that conversation you were talking about, but they really see value when they get to four, and one thing I would just call out is I think more than any other aspect Maybe, but is that fair? More than any other aspect? I think this is one of the aspects that is going to most frequently see teams finish at level.

B

Three I think that, like we've always said that we do not want to create a model where it's about climbing the mountain and every team has to get to level four or else their failures like that's, not the model, we're creating like level. Four is okay to be a stretch and only necessary in some cases- and this is I- think one of the aspects that has that particularly true about it so um definitely keep and and sorry so period separately.

B

um I would say we we want one thing: I really want to encourage as a tone of the entire model is that you have done good at every level so that, when someone reads something they're like this describes me and the successes I'm having but also acknowledges or identifies the failure like the like challenges, I'm facing right so like what I don't want.

B

Is anyone reading that any one of these levels on any one of these aspects and being like Oh, my God I'm, the worst I should just like stop now like this is terrible like we want, obviously, at level one there's gonna be a lot more challenges identified, but, like I, think they're still making progress right, they're still doing things, there are still humans who care about making things better and reducing cognitive load and identifying where platforms could be helpful right, like does that make sense as like a goal, I.

A

Don't know if I've said.

B

That before, but that's something that I think is important for, like just yeah success of this, like is to have people feel like good after they read it rather than.

A

Feel like defeated you.

C

Know, yeah, yeah, no I, totally agree, I think that's something that I would advise um to be like iterated when we meet as a group is a larger group kind of like getting the larger tone of um the paper across the board should kind of emphasize that, and that may be something that, um when we're trying to think about this bridge or something that kind of connects before getting into each of these, that that sentiment is expressed in some way in a specific way for investment, um or it could be something that we express a bit more I think it's definitely I think it's expressed a bit at the like uh top level as you're before you get into the nitty-gritties, um but maybe that's something that can be expressed more up there, um but yeah I think having some alignment of like how we want to express that all along.

C

Obviously, the general tone of like the summaries or descriptions here should be not like man you're over here you're, not prioritizing this you're trash get out of here like quit. Reading the paper, if you're over here um but I, think there's the other end of like yeah I. Think there's there's General way. We can do that. I've.

B

Added that to the top level, like kind of success criteria, of the details as a suggestion so similar to how I suggested to you not to edit it, but to suggest it, so it calls attention to it. I've done the same so that we can call attention to that and make sure we have that discussion in The.

C

B

C

Okay, we got nine minutes uh I. Think again, this is probably in a good enough spot to derive a definition. Would you guys agree, yeah, yeah, there's someone I, think I need help with the most I feel like I'm, having a hard time figuring out after we get to three. Where do we go? What what is a profit Center, so I'm a little curious about the context of profit Center? What was kind of the general mindset when people were thinking about this? Let's.

B

Talk about it- and this is also as I say when we get to the nitty gritties when we find out if our levels work so, um but the the big thing about a profit Center uh is I, don't know if you've ever heard this phrasing before when it comes to technology, but when, um when technol uh different companies treat different activities as either cost centers or profit centers, and the idea is, is something that you spend money on and something that earns you money and in general.

B

Of course, you have cost centers that enable you to to earn money, but they are. They are just your costs right, so like um some, so some companies would look at like, for example, I used to be in test Engineering in QA. Qa is very frequently considered a cost center. It's very frequently considered something you have to spend money on, because it's like a you know. It's like.

A

B

Fundamental need for.

A

Technology but.

B

It's not what's helping you make money as a company like.

A

B

You're, not thinking about what, how much like by your QA doing in hours, work, how much money have you earned like? That's not how that works right so where we bring in profit Center here is the idea that, like your, um your platform can actually improve the earnings of the company and, like the profit profit of the company, and that could be through um improved cost balancing. So.

A

B

It could be like basically cost savings, oriented improvements, or it could be about like fundamentally improving, like like mapping the uh platform capabilities to things you sell at the in the marketplace. To your end users. It could be, you know, I, don't know exactly you know, it'll depend per company, but that's the the idea is being able to track the the actual monetary value in your company's balance sheet to the platform's work versus the one level.

B

Three, you give the platform the ability to like work with a a budget that they can spend on things that maybe seem tangential, but they want to invest in for their for themselves, which might include like technical writers, and things like that. This is like you can actually attach to the profit sheet of the company. um Does.

A

B

Sense, it may not be, it might be right to include it here. I think that it is a big stretch for people uh for for, like examples in the marketplace that do this, but I think it's interesting.

C

B

C

No I think that makes sense, um so it sounds like just to clarify, so it sounds like a difference between three and fours, maybe kind of like we I put here right, we're, maybe measuring the value of the platform, doesn't necessarily mean that that measurement or that you know, cost to analysis right that we're doing uh the income is outweighing the expenses right. But uh here it's definitely it's without cleared out. We have I think. Actually. This is probably a good one. We have like a data driven approach to be able to.

C

Actually this is really good. This is a good definition of what you just said.

B

um I didn't even look at that to be fair, uh but.

A

B

Was probably involved in writing it so that.

A

Doesn't mean yeah.

B

That's not too surprising, I think that, like the difference, maybe I would say as well is that, like at level three, the value is measurable, as in the speed of your CI CD pipeline has improved or the speed of onboarding. A new developer has improved all good things, all things that can result in more investment in the efforts associated with the platform, but nothing to do with your business versus the things that you're measuring at level. Four are business metrics, like your sales, are going up. Your price per sale is going up.

B

Your rate of onboarding new customers is going up and like you're measuring that that's happening, not just because of a feature team's new widget on the UI, but because of something that this platform has like enabled and done and pushed if that makes sense,.

A

D

You I was also reading the past version. That's not very good way to do it. If you do the past version there and what Abby was talking to say, okay, this is exactly what password is about yeah, that.

B

Would that word has stayed the same to be fair, so some so the the in the change from funding to investment was actively I believe a good change for this aspect.

B

However, that like and so we ended up changing a bit of the the levels to to align with investment, but at the end of the day the fourth level stayed the same um and I think there's an argument as I said that this isn't quite right, and so, if you identify a better breakdown like a different, a different level, one or a different level, two or whatever, that would kind of push out this level four into not being included like I, think I said I'm quite torn on it I think it's a good one, but I think it is quite esoteric for a lot of people like I.

B

A

B

Close to where a lot of people are, and so I could see, Arguments for not including it so yeah.

C

I could also see it either way, I think the pause I have with this structures It's tricky, because a lot of these um I'm sorry level, one let's say the rest of these- really have an emphasis on like on money. It kind of they all kind of have like you know, technical costs, um budgets and profit Center.

C

It says like argument made like okay, like we've, moved to investment, but are we still measuring it with just money but on the other end I, think money, I, think money is an indicator of like that original definition right to expend money, effort or time where your money goes also is going to influence the effort and time and so I also see the other side of like it's kind of nice, keeping it around of like yeah, we'll talk about the money component, but also the other um descriptors from that you know so a mess on it as well.

C

Yeah, okay, I, think it's good enough. I think we've got some good progress. We've got a lot to go off of um Victor if you want to help with some of the um uh definition slash like probably well kind of start doing. This is maybe like um maybe like paragraphs something like that you can have like a section and just kind of start. Writing like something each um by a good approach.

C

So if you want to help feel free, uh if that's okay too, um the probably next step will be kind of just getting some things outline and kind of figured out from all this um yeah and then I'll probably have like another session like this, because our group meeting is what is that two weeks.

B

Oh, let's go I, think it's a week from Tuesday, so I.

A

Think we've got a bit of time: yeah yeah, I, didn't I.

B

Didn't want to rush people, so it's an.

A

B

Thing right because it's like, if you don't put deadlines, people, don't do things no.

A

But if you put so, if you put deadlines.

B

Like too far out or no deadline, it's like really hard to motivate to do things, at least for me personally, but then, at the same time, you don't want to like look again we're all on best efforts. This is all our our side, hustle like side gig like we're. Not we don't have time all day every day to work on this and so like. We want to be realistic for people.

A

B

Other person, I'll call and go on I was gonna, say you're here. Do you.

A

Want to jump yeah, that's all! That's all I gotta preach.

B

um But yeah I don't know Colin like if it I don't know. If you have one of these aspects that you have particular alignment with and want to get deeper on or if you want to just review over the top of all of them, but um yeah I'm.

A

B

That out too I'm kind of in the same boat, with your last message, a little bit, Abby yeah I, get it um cool, but.

A

Yeah, this is really good. I can.

D

B

Things and stuff, if you want but.

D

Should that be a paragraph or because the the definition and description that that looks pretty good, so they still need to be turned into a a paragraph.

C

Yeah so I'm thinking as we kind of like refine all this get the definitions down for each of these and then kind of like you can sort of use these as like a template to sort of like match it up with the paragraphs from here and sort of figure out like how does this kind of align like how can I actually write this in, like paragraph format and honestly, we can keep all of these around.

C

We can have the paragraphs here, definition descriptions and then come into the meeting together with what we're trying to decide what to do yeah yeah and we can always collapse whatever delete whatever you know, so, yeah, that's kind of what I'm thinking for this.

B

I agree, I think the one thing I'd had I'd caution: you against is worrying about getting every detail into this, so this I, so One Vision we've talked about this hierarchy of documents within the cncf working group of like white paper and a maturity model to more detailed things. There will be a there will be deeper documents on some of these topics. Do not try and write a white paper for each of these. You.

C

B

Yourself, nuts, right so.

C

A

B

For clarification over complete detail yeah, but thank.

A

B

Hosting this, and let me know if you need any help with scheduling anything else and.

D

A

B

Poking a nose into all the documents so I'll be around. You can't get rid of me too easily. So.

A

Yeah, that's okay! Okay! Good to see you guys, awesome.

B

See you later bye, y'all.