Continuous Delivery Foundation Interoperability Special Interest Group, 17 Nov 2022

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From YouTube: SIG Interoperability Meeting - Nov 17, 2022

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A

Hello, hello, hi. There.

B

Hi three Justin.

C

Good morning, all.

D

Right good afternoon.

C

All right, yeah, yeah.

C

Are you based in the US.

A

uh No I'm uh just off the coast of France on a tiny little Island.

D

Oh Ireland, what which which I can I ask because I don't know many islands there or are you talking about you? Okay,.

A

No I I'm I'm in Jersey, which is uh part of the Channel Islands, not Jersey,.

C

Ml, where are you based I'm in Sweden.

B

C

B

B

Southern part of Sweden.

C

Cool um so I think. The main topic for today is to go through the white paper that we started: Once Upon a Time and.

C

I think we want to revive.

D

Yeah, maybe I can give some historical information about that. I. Think Justin you weren't I was not here when we yeah I, think Ramen was there I, don't know if he contributed but yeah. Let me share my screen. If that's okay with you and I can quickly talk about what we did like two years ago.

D

So when we first perform the stick interability, it was like beginning of 2020., like we have been discussing like what interability means in continuous delivery context, and there were different ideas around what it means for different people, like some people were talking about like having standardized approach to pipelines like pipeline languages or pipeline as code.

D

The other said like if it's higher perspective, when it comes into like having different tools within the CD pipeline interpreting with each other in a much better manner, rather than point-to-point indication, and that gave us an idea to write a white paper to describe the problem and different takes on what interability means in Pontius literal context. So what you see here, they are probably from end of 2020, so two years old, so we simply describe what's Constant integration.

D

Contents literally means, and then what interval means in contextual context and then summarize some benefits and so on, followed up by the key concentrations, constraints and concerns like lack of common vocabulary, complex pipelines, stick to technology process, loose coupling and so on, and we include some case studies in the white paper as well like how people are establishing their you know, pipelines and so on, using different countries that are Foundation projects and so on.

D

And unfortunately, when we attempted to release this white paper around 2021 mid-2021, the feedback we got was this wasn't a white paper, and that was what we were told like, because we had like this. What interability means in CD context the concerns considerations and some case studies there for three progress about what people are doing and then you forgotten about this white paper for a while and then I was thinking of what we should be doing next year.

D

I remembered the white paper, and that gave me the impulse to ping you Justin and Melissa to see if it makes sense to refresh this white paper and perhaps simplify it to see if we can release it. Next year, and if you look at contributors too paper, there are like 20 people who contribute the paper, which was actually pretty good, because it wasn't like two people writing something and pushing it as white paper, and then I took this white paper. I removed case studies, because some of those case studies maybe outdated.

D

Now and some of those people who contribute case studies are not working for those companies. So it would take a lot of time and effort to get those case. Studies updated approved by those organizations, and it may drag this work even further. So what I did is I just create a new Google doc and paste it. Everything except case study, part and now question is like.

D

Does it make sense to work on this document for a couple of weeks and attempt to release its early 2023 first quarter? Maybe, and that's what I want to hear your opinions around this.

C

Yeah I think one question that I have is it's been two years since we started the interoperability, Sig and I know things have happened uh like CD events has happened, the terminology thing is I. Think there's a big effort to document what that terminology is how much interoperability stuff is still a problem.

C

Like will this resonate with people? I guess is the question. I have.

D

I personally I think yes, because this problem is not solved yet. Yes, we have cd events that are, it has some coordinates described that about CD runs. Look at a certain concern, like maybe complex and plan cicd pipelines, but we haven't really looked into this. What we discussed this intent based approach to pipelines, for example- we didn't discuss that two years ago. That is a new edit that could be a new addition to this or pipeline standardization. Maybe relate to this intent-based pipelines as well.

D

So there is still some you know, value for this Viper run. In addition to that, I think Apple developers are joining, the CD runs discussions and they weren't aware of what we have been doing with the interability area. So there are still our organizations out there who are not aware of what we are doing in this area so to.

A

D

Personally, this makes a lot of sense, but I stopped talking here and let you share what your thoughts are.

B

D

B

It I I totally agree as well. I mean the interoperability is important as long as there is not just one player in this crcd domain, and it never will be just one player as far as I can tell at least um whether we have solved the problem or not. I mean well City.

B

Events is one effort to try to solve one of these problems, but we don't even know yet if, if that effort will pay off and unreal, actually they standardized and implemented in most cic tools, so I think we still need to to push for interoperability as being a an important topic to strive for.

A

I think my take on this is, um if I look at some parallels here when when we started the the best practices work, the thing that we discovered was that actually, the biggest Gap in people's knowledge was in understanding why continuous delivery actually exists and providing that piece of narrative to fill in all the conceptual pieces that go along with that and I'm I'm having a similar experience in you know, helping out with the CD event stuff at the moment, uh which is that we've got lots of great engineering detail, um but there's very little to explain why that work exists and what's important about it.

A

So I think that this is another example of a gap where we're not properly communicating the underlying challenges that particular projects are seeking to solve so yeah there's. Definitely some some value in here uh I think the looking at it. The document as it stands at the moment, probably overlaps a bit with a number of areas where things have changed a lot in the past couple of years.

A

So we might need to um to rethink the structure of the document a bit and narrow it down to be very specific on the interoperability part of the puzzle. But explaining succinctly what the challenges are in that space and.

B

A

We need solutions would certainly be a valuable resource.

A

C

All right, so the sounds like people are see value in it. That's great. The next step is probably to sign up for a big pile of work, I'm guessing.

C

um Yeah so I guess I guess. The question is: where are people with regards to like.

C

I'm happy this exists or I'd like to make this happen or I feel like I'm willing to make sure this happens in terms of like level of Interest or involvement.

C

Like do we have any volunteers to drive this thing to be done.

B

That I will certainly review it and I will try to to contribute as much as I can not promising anything. Can you.

D

Nominate others.

C

D

This was so get out of it if you.

C

Give me the name of two friends who my right.

D

Like it would be like again seek interoperability I think we had a chat about this Justin interrupt like gave birth to two other six and indirectly one project, and you know one another works in the supply chain. Maturity model, like all these things, discussions happen feeling. Similarly, I think it would be great if signature ability could push this so I nominate you just as a driver and I I will definitely contribute, so you won't be alone there. But if we could, you know, as the co-chair to think.

C

Yeah for sure, for.

D

C

um It's always nice to ask for volunteers. First, before I, volunteer myself, um yeah okay I mean that makes that makes sense to me I'm happy to go through, go through the document and mark up what I think is.

C

Maybe out of date or needs to be updated, I'd love help on areas that have that are not captured in the document, but should be if you're like. Well we're not talking at all about supply chain security, because that wasn't a thing two years ago or whatever like it would be, it would be useful to get those topics in and then once we have what amounts to a new outline.

C

We can crib from this document and and solicit more writing.

C

A

Does that sound the the thing that I'm suggesting to to all the Sig teams at the moment is take the best practices stuff as as the structure and the high level vocabulary.

A

So those are your high level talking points and then for for this, an area where you're specializing like this use, those to identify the beats that you need to get into into your piece of work um and let's, let's try and get better at tying all of these things together, so that we're building one kind of unified view of continuous delivery um and, using you know, Common definitions and common terminology um uh everywhere that we can uh so I think there's some introductory stuff at the beginning of this draft, which um you, you might be able to greatly, simplify by just referencing back to best practices um and- and then you know that will let you make a more succinct document now that we've got that work to build on top of I.

A

Think the the thing with these is that they they they all need to be readable. They all need to be Punchy um and we need to be getting the message across. You know, as if someone was reading a news article or something like that, so we're only going to get a limited amount of people's attention.

A

You have to grab them in the first two paragraphs to get them to read the rest of the document and the document has got to be explaining a narrative. So there has to be a story.

A

um You, you almost need that Hero's Arc um in in these white papers to say you know, here's a big challenge that you two face and here's how our hero progresses through this journey.

A

It's it's very similar to the sort of TED Talks um idea where you you need to be pitching these things in such a way that people identify with them um and find Value, and it draws them into then going on to digging in deeper getting involved with the the sigs or adopting the projects and using them for themselves.

B

C

Yeah I think you just signed up to be the editor.

C

No I think it's good. It's a good point. It's a good point. I think it's very easy to be so dry in these white papers that it's not fun to read.

A

And it's it's actually harder for for some of the more abstract things like this and CD events compared to the projects, because the many of the projects have have got functioning code that people are using, they understand what it does and where it fits into their world.

A

But here we're trying to explain a new problem. That's going to open up new products and new markets, uh and so we actually have to take people on that Journey from first principles.

A

And it's uh it's a case of having to make it much more like a a pitch document than uh just a you know, an update on the new things in a project.

C

B

Right does anyone.

C

Have more to say on on the document we've taken the action item that I'm gonna push the document forward hopefully have Melissa help.

C

And so we'll we'll work.

D

On it yeah, my my only comment or question is again like.

D

Hopefully we can make this this time, because I have personal interest into this area as well. Like I, think I started talking on interim with this 2016..

D

um Many people are not available.

D

Six years I've been talking about this and there are lots of people still could you know, look at what's happening here and benefit from their fourth time. I would be very sad if we can't you know Make Some Noise, about the work we have done last couple of years with that, could we target like q1 next year like it would be good to have some Target date? Perhaps so we can, you know, come to this meeting to check where we are and then does.

D

We need to work with a left team as well to see if they, like the second version of white paper from their perspective.

C

Yeah is there a.

C

Should we PreFlight that with the LF team and be like hey here's, the thing we're going to go write? How do you feel about that and get feedback on the topic in general.

D

C

D

Ask LF team to see if they have comments or if they remember their previous comments, because again everybody probably forgotten about this, so I can try to find out what were their concerns a year ago to see if we can fix those things in the paper. Probably the case, the department was one of their concerns, because that made this a weird type of publication. You know yeah so removing case studies would address them partially. Perhaps.

A

A

And I I would suggest you know taking another look at the case studies and seeing if there's anything in there, that fits into the community section in best practices, because you know that's what that area was set up for was as a as a place to share case studies and and look at specific challenges, um so yeah clearly that that could be a place to reuse. These.

D

Foreign yeah again the tricky part, as I mentioned at the very beginning, like we don't we don't know like who is this deleted Instagram, it's like very difficult to find, who contributed some of them, but yeah that could be something we can try tell you I think we can identify who those people were and then ask them if they would be interested to have these things. Part of best practices.

D

Yeah cool that was all about this topic me.

C

Asures have interoperability topics they'd like to discuss.

C

All right, well, I, suppose that's a refund of 40 minutes, foreign.