►
From YouTube: Interoperability SIG - Aug 17, 2023
Description
For more Continuous Delivery Foundation content, check out our blog: https://cd.foundation/blog/
A
B
A
I'll
give
it
another
couple
minutes,
and
then
we
go
ahead
and
get
started,
and
actually,
if
we
just
want
to,
like
you,
know,
open
to
an
open
conversation
too.
If
you
just
want
to
talk
about
stuff
in
general
and
what
we're
trying
to
do
and
how
we're
trying
to
get
there.
If
it's
just
the
two
of
us
yeah.
B
A
B
A
A
A
C
A
A
A
C
A
I
am
still
blocked,
but
we
are
actually
moving
forward
on
CD
events
projects
and
that
should
actually
get
resolved
forth
with
and
get
I'll
be
able
to
contribute
the
things
that
are
currently
with
the
open
source
reward
internally
and
share
that
I'm.
Expecting
that
to
happen
like
any
moment,
so
that's
the
good
news
from
that
side
of
it,
the
so
that
should
free
up
the
white
paper.
A
A
Then
we
can
focus
on
the
roadmap
and
what
we'd
like
to
produce
and
other
engagement
materials.
The
reference
architecture
was
at
least
the
beginning
of
that
was
shared
by
Andrea
last
week.
I
have
not
had
I'm
sorry
last
meeting
two
weeks
ago.
I
have
not
had
much
time
to
go
through
it.
I
just
opened
it
up
and
kind
of
looked
at
it.
A
We
we
need
more
people,
I
mean
that's
the
short
of
it,
so
increasing
engagement
to
get
people
to
come
together
and
start
talking
about
the
the
topics
which
are
is
interoperability
for
the
CDF
is
super
crucial
and
really
we
need
to
start
trying
to
figure
out
the
pieces
of
how
that's
going
to
look
and
how
it's
going
to
work.
My
background
is
more.
You
know
the
engineering
side
of
that
and
solving
those
problems.
A
That's
been
my
focus
for
internally
Apple
for
the
past
few
weeks
and
and
we're
moving
pretty
strongly
for
it
as
we're
trying
to
solve
like
how
interoperability
works
and
looks.
These
are
the
questions
that,
of
course,
we're
bringing
back
to
this
particular
stick,
and
this
is
why
we
foreign
start
to
solve
these
problems.
A
The
the
challenges
of
interoperability
from
a
CD
events
perspective
and
with
the
goal
of
that
is
supposed
to
be,
is
what
I'm,
hoping
that
we
can
discuss
today
and
how
we
fulfill
that
expectation
for
the
messaging
that
we've
been
doing
so
far
as
saying
this
is
interoperability,
as
opposed
to
integration
for
the
long-term
success
of
CD
events,
to
bring
it
Beyond
just
metrics
and
visualization.
The
next
step
is
really,
you
know,
beg
some
questions
about
what
is
the
goal
of
like
a
DSL
or
are
we
trying
to
build
like
a
broker?
A
So
I
am
hoping
from
an
engineering
perspective
that
we
can
talk
about
those
challenges.
I've
listed
out,
some
of
the
ones
that
we've
run
into
so
far.
At
least
my
team
has
been
reviewing
CD
events
and
expectations
for
how
it
works
and
the
messaging
we
just
want
to
be
sure
or
I
just
want
to
be
sure
that
as
a
Sig,
we
know
which
way
we're
going.
We
can
start
talking
about
how
we
want
to
build
things
and
how
we
want
to
structure
it.
A
A
Okay,
so
I
guess
the
first
to
be
able
to
add
some
depth
to
this
like
how
familiar
are
we
with
just
the
CD
event
spec
as
a
group,
because
everyone
had
an
opportunity
to
kind
of
dive
into
it
and
look
at
it
and
and
kind
of
pick
it
apart
a
little
bit
or
is:
are
we
kind
of
high
level
in
general
in
the
area
and
I
have
no
expectation
for
you
fatigue
to
have?
You
know,
dropped
into
it?
How
about.
B
Yeah
I'm,
so
I'm
still
rather
high
level
with
the
CD
events,
I
I
went
to
a
bunch
of
talks
at
the
at
cdcon
there
in
Vancouver,
haven't
really
had
a
chance
to
dig
into
the
details,
but
yeah
they've
been
primarily
coming
for
the
interoperability
seemed
like
the
from
like
conversations
with
5G
and
other
folks.
It
seemed
like
this
was
the
place
where
I
might
be
able
to
be
the
most
help.
A
Awesome:
well,
that's
that's
you!
That's
exactly
what
we
need
right!
We
need.
We
need
definitely
need
folks
who
want
to
come
in
and
help
and
dive
in
the
the
event
structure
or
the
language
of
City.
Events
from
the
Eventing
folks
has
CD.
Events
is
very
declarative,
so
you're
dropping
a
lot
of
things
into
a
bucket
saying:
hey
I.
Did
this
I?
Did
this
I?
A
While
that's
not
necessarily
a
problem,
it's
just
a
design
Choice.
The
question
becomes.
If
we
set
a
goal
for
this
group
to
say:
okay,
we
want
to
have
a
DSL,
then
the
DSL
essentially
becomes
the
service
itself,
the
event
bus
to
be
able
to
say,
okay.
This
is
how
it
works
and
what
I
I
want
to
determine
or
I'm
hoping
to
determine
through
the
Sig,
or
at
least
through
conversation,
is
what
is
the
goal
of
that
delivery?
What
are
we
expecting?
A
Are
we
expecting
to
go
ahead
and
say:
okay,
we'll
design
the
engineering
for
the
event
bus
itself
and
create
a
new
tool
there's
several
event.
Buses
that
are
available
like
Captain,
is
a
great
example
of
a
really
good
event
bus,
but
it
it
isn't
like
service
aware
to
the
depth
that
we
wouldn't
use
to
be
so.
A
Are
we
saying
hey,
let's
go
take
on
another
project,
engage
with
those
guys
and
say
Hey,
you
know:
can
we
get
you
to
work
around,
see
the
events
and
the
things
that
happen
like
what
is
the
the
goal
and
to
kind
of
get
a
solid
goal
so
that
we
as
we're
communicating
what
we're
going
to
do
to
get
engagement?
We're
really
clear
with
that
messaging?
A
Some
of
the
other
choices,
of
course,
is
to
go
sit
down
with
the
CD
events,
team
and
say
hey.
We
need
it's,
this
spec
to
be
a
little
bit
more
imperative
and
to
have
some
imperative
ability
around
see
the
events
so
that
we
can,
you
know,
have
interactions
in
the
messaging
and
actually
carry
forward
the
the
goal
of
interoperability,
and
that
opens
up
things
like
value
stream
directly
within
the
spec
of
CD.
Events,
as
opposed
to
having
to
have
a
separate
system
run
that.
A
Is
that
two
technical
for
the
group
itself
at
this
point?
That's
really
what
I'm
trying
to
determine
because
I
live
in
the
design
layer
and
trying
to
solve
these
problems
at
a
very
large
scale
and
I'd
like
to
be
able
to
do
that
here,
if
possible,
for
the
group,
and
is
that
too
much
for
the
sick?
It's
really
the
question
that
I
am
trying
to
ascertain
at
this
point.
A
D
Oh
I
think,
like
you
already
touched
many
of
the
things
I
am
going
to
I
like
like,
so
if
you
think
about
interability
the
CD
events
or
event-based
approaches.
One
way
of
you
know
one
potential
maybe
viable
way
of
addressing
this,
but
since
the
Sig
looks
at
interability
I
think
maybe
we
should
again.
We
should
work.
Cd
runs
and
cigarettes
closely.
My,
but
at
the
same
time
to
you,
know,
be
open
to
other
interest
people
who
might
want
to
contribute
this.
D
Maybe
we
can
take
a
broader
approach,
which
is
what
you
I
think
plan
to
do
with
white
paper
as
well
like.
Why
are
we
talking
about?
Are
we
only
talking
about
CD
ones?
Here,
then
I
should
go
somewhere
else
like
if
someone
comes
because
some
people
have
different
ways
to
tackle
this
challenge.
So
again,
this
might
be
late
to
roadmap
discussion.
We
had
as
well
like
if
you
can
somehow
this
interval.
Okay,
it
looks
a
different
personas
and
books
that
interrolled
as
broader
area
to
work
on
on
the
roadmap.
D
We
can
have
more
practical
things
like
okay.
This
is
a
problem
like
okay,
CD
ones,
embroidery.
Events
based
approach
addresses
that
aspect,
but
what
about
this
DSL
or
visualization
aspects
or
VSM
aspects
like
you
can
slice
these
different
things
down,
then
people
with
those
ideas
needs
or
concerns
or
Solutions,
maybe
could
take
part
in
conversations
targeting
those
specific
areas
under
interability.
So
we
don't
improve
off
I,
don't
want
to
use
the
worst
Force,
but
we
don't
direct
them
to
just
one
thing
you
know:
PDFs
is
the
way
we
are
going
to
do
this.
D
So
if
we
can
somehow
like
keep
things
a
bit
abstract
and
high
level
at
the
same
time
evening
that
we
can
dive
into
details.
Okay
in
this
aspect,
CD
events
is
our
current
focuses,
but
it
doesn't
mean
that
is
the
only
way
it
doesn't
mean.
That
is
the
only
thing
we
focus
on
I
don't
know
if
it
makes
sense,
but
it's
kind
of
you
know,
because
if
you
tell
people
this
is
the
thing
we
are
doing,
then
they
will
go
to
app
delivery.
They
will
go
to
open
message.
D
B
Hey
yeah,
I
I,
totally
agree
with
you
there,
but
yeah
like
it
really
seems
like
that
thing.
Where
you
know
maybe
CD
events
is,
is
a
you
know,
really
really
good
reference
architecture.
We
have
something
that
kind
of
shows
like
here's,
a
really
Advanced
solution
that
uses
these
other
pieces,
but
it's
also
very
important
that
that
we
also
have
like,
but
also
you
don't
need
it
right.
It
may
be
easier.
It
may
make
your
life
better,
but
you
know
it's
I
feel
like
a
lot
of
times
with
systems
like
this.
B
When
you
see
when
you
look
at
this
and
you're
like
oh
there's,
CD
events
and
then
there's
this
tool
and
that
tool
and
that
tool
A
lot
of
times,
people
get
overwhelmed
and
kind
of
scared
away
and
I
I.
Think
at
least
you
know
my
kind
of
thoughts
of
where
this
group
would
be
really
helpful,
is
kind
of
showing
the
different
options
of
being
like
yeah.
Here's
a
super
Advanced
solution,
but
also
here's
kind
of.
Like
the
you
know,
baby
steps.
Here's
like
the
beginning,
inner
one.
B
Let's,
let's
just
get
some
Automation
in
your
system
and
then
you
can
kind
of
see.
Oh
okay,
now
I
can
now
that
I
have
the
Baseline
now
I
can
progress
and
I
can
go
okay,
let's
add
a
bit
more
complexity,
and
now
maybe
I
have
the
understanding
to
better
implement
the
more
advanced
scenarios.
So
you
don't
end
up
with
one
of
those
situations
where
you
know
people
end
up
with
these
kind
of
like
cobbled
together
overly
complex
solutions
that
then
end
up
causing
more
trouble
than
they
help,
and
then
people
go
what's
the
CD
stuff.
B
C
D
D
That
and
then,
as
they
progress
through
their
transformation
of
as
they
Embrace
continuous
Theory,
they
will
inherently
hit
these
things.
You
know,
or
they
will
try
to
bring
in
new
technology,
dropping
Source
or
you
know
commercial.
They
will
see
this
first
and
they
may
attempt
to
sold
them
and
they
sold
them,
but
they
will
continue.
They
will
need
to
keep
that
up
to
date
since
open
source
most
fast,
and
then
that
could
be
next
step
to
take
for
those
people
and
then
they
can
okay.
Oh,
we
have
this
problem
as
well.
D
Let's
look
at
CDMA,
so
it's
kind
of,
because
if
people
are
not
aware
of
the
problem,
it
won't
work
like
it
doesn't
matter
how
much
you
talk
about
Advanced
things
like
that
this
you
have
been
living
in
this
and
your
face
this
too
many
times.
It
feels
like
natural
thing
to
discuss.
But
when
you
talk
to
some
others
they're
like
they
don't
even
know
what
problem
you
are
talking
about.
Yeah,
okay,
I
shouldn't
be
here:
oh.
B
Yeah,
if
you,
if
you
try
to
show
people
the
this
like
amazingly
complex
problem
solving
and
they
go
that's
great,
but
I've
never
seen
that
problem
before
this.
This
isn't
for
me
right
that
sort
of
thing,
because
I
I
feel
like
a
lot
of
times.
That's
where
you
get
when
you're.
You
know
when
you
got
somebody
who's,
green
and
looking
at
some
of
these
Solutions
and
it
just
yeah
again,
it's
overwhelming
and
they're
like
well,
this
oh
I'm,
not
to
that
scale.
I
don't
need
this
and
it's
like!
No!
No!
B
You
want
to
do
it
now.
So,
as
you
scale
up
you're
not
trying
to
implement
this
in
your
super
complex
environment,
it's
it's
like
Automation
in
general
right.
It
takes
longer
to
automate
it
the
first
time
than
doing
it
by
hand.
But
now
you
don't
have
to
do
it
by
hand
every
other
time
and
you
have
a
you,
have
a
baseline
to
build
off
of.
A
Okay
and
and
if
I'm
like
paraphrasing
any
of
this
wrong,
please
let
me
know
like
yeah,
so,
okay,
that's
actually
a
great
Point
about
progression
and
being
able
to
show
you
know
the
steps
in
that
and
why
that's
that's
important,
the
the
use
cases
of
like
visualization
and
metrics
it.
Actually,
you
know
solves
that
problem
really
really
well,
it
is
just
the
more
complex
things
that
become
a
challenge.
A
It
also
sounds
like
in
this
discussion
that
we're
you
know
saying
like
hey:
let's
just
focus
there
first
and
take
people
through
like
okay.
This
is
the
benefits
of
visualization
early
in
the
process
and
not
you
know
and
push
out
the
the
goal
of
trying
to
make
a
system
where
everything
is
is
just
basically
drag
and
drop,
because
it's
it's
being
built
towards
interoperability
and
that
helps
in
the
sense
that
it,
it
kind
of
shrinks
the
need
to
have
a
goal
of
this
year
saying
all
right.
A
A
A
So,
if
we're
saying
hey,
let's
change
the
focus
and
not
try
to
deliver
a
DSL
or
set
the
plan
for
a
DSL
now
and
focus
on
visualization
and
metrics
and
trying
to
solve
some
of
the
problems
that
we
see
for
having.
You
know
this.
This
really
deep,
complex
interoperability
model
and
keep
working
with
the
CD
events
team
to
to
highlight
those
errors.
So
we
can
still
work
on
the
Discover
reprocess
and
working
on.
A
D
B
D
But
we
can
change
the
order
of
things
like
I
I'm,
not
saying
like
we
should
look
at
DSL
or
we
shouldn't
buy
into
details,
but
what
I
am
trying
to
say
if
you
can
put
few
topics
in
roadmap
which
ties
back
into
the
interval
to
white
people
and
broader
vision
and
see
who
shows
up?
And
if,
like
that's
how
events
started
when
we
started
with
special
entire
group
intervalty,
we
were
talking
about
lots
of
different
things
like
pipeline
standardization,
visualization
events
and
so
on.
D
We
should
give
as
much
information
those
people
in
crisp
and
short
way
and
then
that
person
can
make
up
their
mind
and
say:
oh
I
can
contribute
this
on
this
level
because
we
are
not
there
yet
and
if
that
person
is
interesting,
DSL
can
join.
Therefore,
why
I'm
saying
this,
because
last
week
someone
sent
a
message
on
Twitter
or
post
or
ex-platform,
asking
about
github's,
Primitives
and
event,
standardization
and
totally
random
person,
which
I
never
thought
anywhere
within
CDF
or
elsewhere,
linked
CD
one
star.
D
So
there
are
people
out
there
who
are
looking
at
what
is
happening
and
if
you
can
put
these
things
like
what
are
the
topics
that
could
be
discussed
on
an
interability,
then
those
people
could
find
ways
to
join
the
conversation
to
instead
of
us
showing
them
to
a
certain
thing.
We
can
keep
the
problem
a
bit
broader
and
based
on
the
interest
from
the
people
who
take
part
in
this
conversation,
then
we
can
focus
on
individual
areas
because
we
can't
solve
all
the
problems.
That's
the.
A
A
Yes
and
yeah
and
I
guess,
if
I,
if
I
was,
was
making
it
sound
like
we,
we
are,
you
know,
dropping
one
thing
to
do
another
that
wasn't
my
intent.
What
I'm
saying
is
let's
slow
down,
and
you
know,
give
us
some
room
to
experiment
and
see
how
this
process
can
actually
work
before
we
commit
to
saying
that
we're
going
to
build
a
DSL
right
and
so
I
I
would
because
some
of
the
work
that
I'm
doing
is
progressing
down
that
channel
very
very
quickly,
because
that's
the
promise
I
want
to
fulfill.
A
You
know:
I
am
bringing
up
these
problems
and
then
you
know
I
have
one
of
somebody
on
my
staff
who's.
Actually
in
the
city
of
nsig,
you
know
who
is
taking
those
problems
back
to
the
meetings,
but
then
we're
also
doing
things
internally
and
there's.
You
know
a
bunch
of
different
groups
now
that
are
all
saying.
Yes,
this
sounds
awesome:
let's
do
it
and
then
we're
sitting
down
and
go
okay,
but
how
do
we
make
you
do
this
other
piece
or
how
do
we
make
it
do
this?
A
A
Let's
have
conversations
and
find
the
places
where
people
want
to
glean
onto
that
and
move
it
forward,
especially
for
things
like
visualization,
because
there
isn't
a
tool
or
something
that
will
take
the
events
and
do
the
visualization,
and
you
know
we
can
describe
that
and
start
there
and
it's
the
same
thing
with
the
metrics
right
where
there
is
no
discussion
around
hey.
This
is
how
to
get
the
metrics
out
of
it.
A
A
That's
a
great
approach
and,
like
I
said,
my
concern
was
that
we
were
trying
to
set
a
goal
to
say
this
is
when
we're
going
to
have
a
DSL
and
do
that
specific
for
the
road
map
and
I
think
that
if
we
take
that
step
back
that
kind
of
changes
that
conversation
over
the
next
year,
it's
more
like.
Let's
build
conversations
around
each
track
to
see
what
tools
or
what
information
we
can
make
available
and
create
that
interest.
A
D
Yeah
I
think
that
is
the
approach
we
took
with
the
original
roadmap
like
near
term
later
on
future
kind
of
thing.
Like
again,
let's
say
the
examples
are
really
great,
like
DSL
visualization
metrics,
let's
assume
we
identify
these
three.
As
the
topics
we
will
focused.
Yes,
I
could
become
the
near-term
thing
and
it
could
be
like
okay
next
year
we
want
to
have
DSL
but,
and
then
visualization
could
be
after
that
and
so
on.
D
That
could
attract
others
because,
like
against
the
difference,
I
think
in
that
report
there
is
an
issue
around
visualization
and
if
people
see
those
things
they
join,
therefore,
because
they
might
have
similar
ideas
and
they
might
have
thoughts.
We
need
to
make
these
things
visible.
That's
what
I
am
trying
to
say
essentially
I'm,
not
disagreeing
with
you.
D
A
A
C
A
No,
you
you're
I,
perfect
right
because
I
I
don't
want
to
say
that
I'm
beginning,
you
know,
because
there
are
like
I
said:
there's
things
happening
in
in
my
world
internally
and
I
am
on
the
engineering
side,
right,
I
built
things,
and
so,
when
you're
in
that
space
and
you're
in
those
meetings
with
a
lot
of
other
smart
people
going
okay.
Well,
how
are
you
going
to
do
a
thing
and
they
said
they
can
do
you
know
that's
what
the
focus
is.
A
That's
what
the
the
stresses
are
and
you're
trying
to
get
that
and
solve
those
problems,
but
it
might
not
be
the
community's
problem
and
that's
the
other
side
of
this
engagement
is
understanding
where
the
community
is
in
this
process
and
how
we
can
create
that
feedback.
Loop
and
say:
okay,
Community
I,
see
this
thing
you're
doing
it's
solving
these
immediate
problems.
How
does
that
work
out
long
term
right?
A
Let's
just
start
at
the
beginning,
create
the
interest
and
then
step
people
to
the
next
thing
as
they
are
showing
that
interest.
Is
that
that's
what
I'm
hearing
you
say
and
when
you
start
talking
about
near-term
midterm
far
term?
That's
what
I
hear
like
okay,
let's
create
that
interest,
Crete
being
able
to
show
things
that
we
can
actually
accomplish
quickly
and
people
can
take
action
on
use
and
then
give
us
feedback
and
go
on
to
the
next
step.
Right
is
that
yeah?
Well.
D
D
You
can't
dictate
what
I
want
to
do
and
when
I
want
to
do
that,
but
you
can
have
a
bit
more
flexibility
and
if
you
look
at
that
diagram,
I
put
on
Zoom,
it
kind
of
is
flexible
enough,
but
at
the
same
time
it
puts
some
expectations
on
the
community.
Like
you
can
say,
these
are
three
things:
let's
focus
on
DSL
as
the
current
thing,
because
we
have
people
who
want
to
contribute
that
thing.
We
have
actual
work.
D
We
can
do
right
now
and
visualization
or
we
depend
on
CD,
runs
for
example,
or
we
don't
have
anybody
to
do
that,
but
we
think
it
is
important.
We
can
put
it
into
near
term
that
with
flexibility
and
these
things
can
move
between
different
stages
like
oh,
we
have
like
five
people
joining
for
metrics.
Let's
prioritize
that
because
we
have
those
people
who
want
to
contribute
it
and
that
work,
but
also
start
in
parallel.
A
D
B
I
I
totally
agree,
I.
Think
it's
a
lot
with
that
same
like
as
we're
trying
to
draw
people
in
if
somebody
stumbles
across
it
or
goes.
Oh
I
want
to
be
a
part
of
this
and
they
see
you
guys
working
on
this.
Only
one
thing
and
it's
very
in-depth
and
very
like
you
know
it
would
be
awesome
to
have
this
drop-in
interoperability
where
you
just
go.
B
Oh
I
want
to
use
x
and
it
just
all
plugs
in
together,
but
I
feel
like
a
lot
of
people
who
maybe
are
newer
to
these
sort
of
things
and
want
to
participate
and
want
to
give
their
you
know
their
their
input.
They
see
it
there
and
we'll.
Maybe
just
go.
Oh
man,
I
I,
don't
know
what
I'm
doing
like
these.
These
people
are
way
ahead
of
me.
B
I'm
I'm,
not
I'm,
not
going
to
open
my
mouth
I,
don't
want
to
look
I,
don't
want
to
look
down
right
so
having
that
wide
range
of
things-
and
you
know
being
like
hey
here's
some
it's
it's
kind
of
like
getting
people
started
on
any
open
source
project
right.
It's
like
hey.
Here's
the
easy
things
to
do:
here's
some
bugs
that
you
can
knock
out
kind
of
get
a
good
understanding,
contribute
something
feel
like
you're
part
of
the
community
and
not
get
scared
away.
Because
everybody's
you
know
going.
Oh,
don't
ask
questions.
D
A
A
A
I
I
think
that
that's
the
challenge
that
I
was
talking
about
like
if
we
were
trying
to
do
the
DSL
near
term,
there's
a
lot
of
problems
to
overcome,
to
be
able
to
do
that
and
what
I
am
recommending.
You
know,
especially
based
on
this
feedback,
is
that,
yes,
we
continue
to
do
the
work
to
do
interoperability
and
the
folks
who
are
interested
in
that
and
building
that
and
discovering
what
those
those
blockers
are
they're
still
going
to
do
that.
But
the
delivery
of
the
item
is
not
something
that
we're
focused
on
right.
A
We're
focused
on
the
discovery
of
the
challenges
to
create
the
DSL,
and
you
know
I
I,
and
then
we
can
have
further
conversations
in
the
community
about
hey.
We
took
your
concept.
We're
trying
to
to
make
a
thing
out
of
it
and
I
know
like
Fidelity
is
also
like
doing
going
through
this
too
and
say
you
know
this
is
what
the
challenges
are
like.
A
Do
it
to
fit
your
need,
but
we're
not
talking
about
the
common
things
that
always
have
to
be
there,
and
if
you're
going
to
go
with
more
of
a
messaging
or
imperative
format,
then
these
things
have
to
be
there
and
it's
required.
And
then
we
can
go
back
even
to
the
vendors
who
and
say,
hey,
look
if
you're
going
to
use
CD
events
or
you're
doing
this.
A
No,
no,
not
everybody's
over
there,
dude
just
calm
down
I
get
the
true
kind
of
thing
to
do,
but
start
with
the
things
that
are
over
here.
That'll
draw
in
more
people.
Get
that
interest
give
them.
Some
wins
right
and
let
them
feel
a
part
of
the
community,
because
that
is
something
where
I'm
like
all
right.
Yeah,
let's
make
this
thing
happen.
This
is
you
know,
but
yeah
start
with
visualization
give
people
the
tools
to
do
the
visualization
and
then
get
feedback
and
say:
okay.
Was
that
valuable?
A
A
Then
we
have
more
Community
around
that
and
we
can
communicate
it
in
that
fashion.
At
least
that's
what
I'm
getting
from
the
feedback
that
I've
gotten
from
from
this
meeting
so
far
and
the
light
that
I
needed
to
kind
of
like
you
know,
I'm
not
going
to
say
panic,
but
you
know
when
you're
in
there
and
you're
having
the
discussions
and
like
no.
No,
this
is
going
to
work,
I
I
believe
in
this,
and
you
know
so.
This
makes
a
lot
more
sense
than
the
stuff
that
I
was
literally
up.
A
B
And
I
think
that
that
kind
of
Discovery
aspect
is
a
great
way
for
that
same,
like
sense
of
inclusion,
how
can
I
contribute
right?
It's,
like
you
know,
it's
an
easy
way
to
contribute
like
come.
Tell
us
what
problems
you
have
right
like
what?
What
are
the
issues
you've
run
into?
What's
what's
the
bar
like,
especially
if
you
have
somebody
even
who
maybe
hasn't
actually
implemented
this
sort
of
thing,
it's
like
why?
Why
didn't
you?
You
know
you
probably
looked
at
it.
B
What
what
was
the
you
know
like
a
lot
of
times
like
we,
we
talk
about
like
what
was
it
that
made
you
rage
quit
right.
What
was
that
thing
where
you're?
Just
like
you
know
what
I'm
it's
not
worth
my
time,
throwing
it
out
the
window
I'm
moving
on
to
something
else,
or
you
know
something
more
important
and
Gathering.
That
information
is
great
because
you
know,
like
you
said.
B
The
problems
you
have
at
Apple
are
a
lot
different
than
the
problem
somebody
has
at
their
startup
right
or
the
problem
somebody
has
when
they're
you
know
just
going
starting
down
this
road
of
wanting
to
do
this
sort
of
thing
and
I
I
know
you
know,
I've
always
seen
you
know.
When
you
get
people
starting
to
talk
about,
you
know
what
they've
tried
and
what
they've
done
and
even
what
they
failed
at.
B
There's
so
much
of
this,
where
you
know
I
know
we're
all
looking
for
that.
You
know
Silver
Bullet
right
there,
but
in
this
in
the
whole
technology
World,
there
is
no
right
answer.
There's
the
right
answer,
for
you
know
your
situation,
what
you're
trying
to
do-
and
that
might
be
the
right
answer
today.
B
It's
not
the
right
answer
tomorrow,
so
I
I,
always
like
to
you,
know
really
make
that
clear
where
it's
like:
hey
you're,
it's
not
that
you
don't
know
what
you're
doing
it's
like
this
stuff's
tough
and
we're
trying
to
do
what
we
can
to
make
it
a
little
bit
simpler
and
make
it
easier
for
this
stuff
to
work
and
not
have
to
re-architect
every
time
you
make
a
change.
Yeah.
A
This
has
been
super
useful
for
me
I.
So
thank
you
for
for
showing
up,
because
it's
it's
even
in
the
things
that
I
have
written
and
done.
I
was,
at
the
other
end
of
this,
this
discussion,
not
at
the
beginning
and
the
discovery
portion
of
that,
like
figuring
finding
out
what
people's
issues
are
outside
of
my
own
use
cases,
I
really
wasn't
even
I,
don't
want
to
say:
I
wasn't
thinking
about
it,
because
I
knew
people
had
problems,
and
you
know
that
would
all,
hopefully
all
come
out
in
the
community.
A
But
how
to
engage
people
where
they
are
is
the
mistake
that
I
was
I've
literally
been
making
in
this
process
is
that
I
have
to
meet
them
with
the
empathy
to
be
okay?
Where
are
you
at
now,
and
then
you
know
use
that
as
a
part
of
the
discovery
process,
because
we'll
figure
out
more
about
what's
happening
with
everyone.
So
thank
you
so
much,
okay,
okay,
so
for
the
midterm,
sorry
to
be
like
all
over
the
place
with
my
agenda.
A
B
C
D
Like
just
dreaming
a
lot
based
on
that,
like
current
near-term
future
like
again
good
evening,
this
has
been
my
dream
since
2016-17
compliance
like
it
could
be
a
future
item
like
we
don't
even
talk
about
it
right
now,
but
this
could
pave
the
way
for
complaints.
Okay,
I
am
relating
different,
open
source
Technologies
and
some
commercial
tools.
What
do
they
comply
with
speed
events,
for
example
yeah?
That
could
be
a
really
future
Target.
You
know
it's
like
I
want
to
select
make
my
two
selections
based
on
what
has
been
developed.
D
Will
they
work
with
these
tools
or
are
they
part
of
this
device
ecosystem,
for
example,
and
one
way
to
learn
about
that
is
sending
some
kind
of
compliance
programming
place,
which
can
you
know,
add
users
making
their
technical
selections
so
again
like
again,
this
will
not
happen
next
year.
It
will
take
ages
because,
like
it's
been
seven
years
already
right,
it
will
go
a
few
more
years.
So
again,
just
you
know
when
we
can
push
this
thing
in
future.
A
A
A
B
A
Okay,
essentially,
this
is
what
I
wanted
to
cover
today
or
make
sure
it
got
covered
today.
Are
there
any
specific
issues
that
actually
I
hope?
You
know
any
specific
issues
that
you
guys
wanted
to
talk
about
or
things
that
you're
concerned
with
or
things
that
you
want
to
know
about
to
this
point,
and
apologies
for
not
leaving
more
time
to
to
have
this
open
discussion.