Continuous Delivery Foundation Ortelius Project Meetings, 29 Dec 2020

Previous Meeting Next Meeting

⏯

youtube image

►

From YouTube: 12/29/2020 Ortelius Open Source Project General

Description

A final call to round out the year. Blog post, application sets and intros to new members is covered.

A

It just started.

B

Thank you for reminding us. We always forget.

A

B

And I I like the background, you chose it's my favorite.

C

Yeah, I also like tried all those things. It's also like my favorite.

B

Isn't it beautiful, though I so want this painting? Can you imagine having this painting in your house.

C

How's, the movie, by the way, I've not seen it it's.

B

Awesome, it's really fun. It's a really good sci-fi.

A

I think it was on amazon, prime, the the movie expanse.

C

I have to say, because what amazon does that it doesn't like so like provide all contents of prime to all countries right.

A

Well, you just have to pick a vpn in uh in the states to get around it.

B

A

B

Put the dock in the chat in case anybody's having trouble getting to it, yeah.

A

So the only thing looking through this is upcoming. After the new year we're gonna have um a meeting with netflix and armory. I believe that meeting invites been sent out, yeah.

B

A

If you didn't get it go, look at the um the shared calendar off of the ortelius.io website. You'll be able to get to that meeting, and the goal is to talk about what they're calling application sets.

A

I read through the documentation of what they have going on and uh they're making life much more confusing.

B

So for anybody who wants to do that, I I posted it on the discord channel sometime back steve. Is there a chance you can find that and post it put it in the meeting notes.

C

I have it open. Let me share yeah.

B

If you could add that um those links that that was from the guys at intuit uh shared those that those meeting those notes with us.

C

There are uh irgo cd pro applicants effect.

A

I believe so yeah that was one of them and I think there was another one. I did most of the my research off of the.

A

um The argo cd website, um so I went to their github repo, um try to figure out what they have going on around application sets um the confusing part for me and I don't understand their their so where this all came about, was um it's very driven by releasing a a single application, um a monolith application put it that way.

A

So it's even though, like argo, cds uh focused around kubernetes um in docker, uh the way it started, I think, coming out of an intuit was that they took a an application, a monolith application stuck it into a container and then started running that in kubernetes, probably with like a replica set of one uh to get some uh high availability.

A

But um what's so, they call that an application so they're they. They equate a container to an application. Now the microservices world that breaks down really quick, um so they allowed for applications to contain applications in their model and that got confusing as well.

A

So what they did was they said we need a new uh level, we'll call it application sets which is supposed to replace applications of applications. Now the throw the whole confusing thing uh to confuse us. Even more is uh you have the applications um like in argos cd belong to projects, so I it's going to be interesting to see how they're going to so. The container for an application is really a project, not another application, so their their whole world of how things are related.

A

It gets very uh muddy very quickly and I'm not sure if an application set's going to belong to a project or if it's going to be the reverse. A project belongs to an application set um at that level. Well, maybe.

B

We can persuade them that making that a static decision is a bad idea in the first place.

A

Yeah, so it's they've already written application sets it's already they've they've already got it basically done uh it's going in beta. So.

B

Does but not spinnaker.

A

Right so, but argo is, is criticism created this whole um control plane and what it really is is is the um the application set when I was looking at the code really is focused around um kind of templating and grouping, so you could basically like run a query.

A

So let me back up a little bit, so what they're trying to do is you you take your application. Let's say you have your deploy, yaml file for your container, that gets in order for the whole ci cd process to work. You have to take your deployment all your deployment information out of your out of the get repo for your code, put it into another repo, that's shared across other applications.

A

So you have this deployment repo that they that are going to contain all of what a cluster should look like, and in that you can create directories in that git repo for your different applications or containers that you want to deploy and application sets is a way to go ahead and say.

A

Go find me all the deployment yamos that are in this namespace and the idea is it's going to go through and recurse through the directory structure, finding all the deployment animals that belong to a certain namespace and then that's going to be your application set that you can then apply uh variables to to do the deployment it's very convoluted on how they are they're trying to do it, but basically it looks like they are trying to get around the problem of not having a relational database and doing everything flat files.

A

You know just files in directories in a single repo.

B

A

So that's the idea behind uh application sets not.

D

Very pretty so I've got a question about this whole thing. um Let me start with the statement, so I like, I feel like we need a glossary or but more like a table of this is what your word means, and this is how we're mapping it in to our vocabulary and idea, space and along those lines. Does it make sense to you based on you know your current depth of all of these things that, like their idea of projects, would map into the artelias concept of domains or does there?

D

Is there a mismatch between those for you.

A

uh They're, the so domains in our uh in the artilleries world have a hierarchy, so they're they're naturally um gain inheritance from your for your parent. um So in the application set the get ops world uh there is no hierarchy, it is um well, there is a hierarchy, but it's very, very shallow. You have your git repo that you're going to have your like your deployment, yaml.

A

What's what you want the state of your cluster to look like that is going to be in a git repo and then on than that get repos contained in the organization. That's the the the level uh deep that they can go where we can go as deep as we want in artelias with uh with organization.

A

So that's one thing: that's! When you talk about a project, their project would be one sub-domain in artelias, but it doesn't represent where it is in relationship to other projects.

A

Does that help.

D

Yeah I mean I I still feel like you know, even though the ortelius domains is, um you know, may have the hierarchical semantics and then that's not really what makes sense in the get ops world. um But you know I've seen small organizations get eaten by bigger organizations, and so you know having that flexibility to be able to say you know, everybody in the acquisition is now you know a sub organization. In this larger thing,.

E

D

Than the domain hierarchy, um you know would be something that they can take advantage of. You know, and I think larger organizations tend to build things that follow their organizational structure and so being able to map that into projects may make sense even for get ops people, but.

A

Yeah, it really comes down to where the domain structure really comes into play is when you talk about.

A

The design patterns around microservices and how you want to group similar microservices that follow the same pattern together, even though that they may be coming from different parts of the organizational structure.

A

So you know, for example, like a single sign-on microservice may be written by the infrastructure and the security team together, but then the developers extend that out and add on their, you know, being able to expand upon that and they have another uh something that's similar or lives next to it that they would want to from their side of the organization, uh grouped together as part of a like a security domain or a single sign on domain uh level.

A

um Most like you said, most companies aren't uh there yet especially smaller ones, um but they're as things expand and people uh start creating larger numbers of microservices. They will need a decent cataloging methodology.

B

So on that note, I just want to point out what netflix sees as a an application. They also see an application as a container, but they have a situation where they have containers that are no longer loosely coupled, meaning that when they push one microservice out it could it can impact another microservice and they want to be able to roll out or deploy them all at the same time.

B

So I think that on the 15th we're going to get clarification on um what both of these companies were, trying. What argo was trying to solve with their application sets and what netflix's is asking us to solve with uh loosely.

A

Tightly coupled.

B

Tightly coupled microservices so.

A

Tightly coupled versions of microservices, yes,.

B

Tightly coupled versions of a microservice.

B

Right so I think that netflix, uh I think the armory problem and the argo cd problem may be different, they're, calling them the same thing, which would be great to get everybody in the same on the same call to get clarification.

A

And what I realize is this whole application set application um terminology like you're, saying christopher, really came out of the world where monoliths were a container was con, was holding a whole monolithic application uh and it wasn't thought out from a microservice perspective.

A

It was literally and that's the way armor um I'm sorry, um spinnaker came about, spinnaker was initially created to you, know basically bootstrap vm images, uh ec2 instances and bacom, so they can then go ahead and lay down some application code and roll those out because initially netflix- and I don't know if they still do or not, netflix actually didn't adopt uh kubernetes.

A

um They had a whole process of running all these vms and coordinate all these. um Their application, basically, is a java application running in a vm, um and it's runs mainly under eureka.

A

Is the api messaging platform uh that they use and there's a couple, others that are based java based that end up being baked into a vm, and then they just send these vms out and they use all of aws's, auto scaling of vms to be able to handle demand. So I don't know if they've, how far along they are in the kubernetes world uh for netflix. But that's where, like spinnaker came from, was actually building a vm, uh an ec2 instance with um java code placed into it.

D

I know what you're saying about this being a large organization sort of thing, but the idea of mono repos has leaked out of google, and so I've seen smaller organizations feel like. Oh, we need all these disparate things in one big repo and it's you know going to have one big.

D

You know qa release engineering sort of process, and so you know I wonder how much of that is just like. Oh now, everything has to be in sync, because it's all part of the same version, even if it's not necessarily that tightly coupled.

A

Yeah and um talking to dan lorick who's from google.

A

The idea behind the mono repo for google is to provide um basically a a lockdown version of everything um and their their repo. From my understanding is a couple terabytes.

A

You know it's, it's not like a small little repo. We talk about. You know startup organizations, but it's into the terabytes they're their monorepo, but what it allows them to do is basically to um snapshot and tag, and you know and and make uh make it so you can. If you need to get back to something uh you can, it may not be easy, but you can do it and that's where the monorepo idea is coming about now, the the hard part with model repos- and this will probably change.

A

um I have a feeling with some of the ci cd tools is- and this is where, like the get ops part is, is and the argo cds running into.

A

If you change, let's say you have a mono repo and it's controlling um five deployments um at a git ops level. There are different projects, we'll all use projects as a as a term or products we'll use products. So it's five different products that are totally independent, but there happens to be a get apps repo for representing what production is of that.

A

The problem with the mono repo is product a comes in and they check something in it's going to trigger the whole uh process based on the the github or you know the get triggers to go off and do something. Now you have to go in in the model, repo filter out what it what needs to be acted upon. um You know what was that change actually for, since we have five five products in the same repo is: are these four need to go off and do something or are at that level?

A

And I think that's going to kind of get sorted out, but it's going to be kind of uh clunky. I think for a while at that level,.

B

Well, I think that if they're from a ortelia standpoint, we clarify some of that, so it wouldn't matter if they had one monorepo or not, we would be. um We would be showing those relationships yeah for us. It doesn't.

E

B

E

Doesn't matter.

B

Yes, actually, we make a mono repo possible in a way.

A

And and the reason why that's possible is because of the the domain structure um because of the la the the domains are logical views of the organizational um relationships uh that can be represented and point down into a monorepo for um the specific pro product in the re in the monorepo uh process.

A

So it's going to be interesting to see um like you said christopher, you know how people are you know going to to many repositories and then coming back and that's going to happen a while for a while. I think people are going to go both directions.

D

E

Be absolutely it's just you know, I think a lot of small.

D

Organizations don't realize what some of the work and negative aspects of this are, but you know hopefully folks, like us, can make tools to make it suck less for whatever direction they want to go.

A

Yeah yeah and that's our goal with artelias is to help make it suck less and- and you know you get some crazy um ideas out there and terminology.

A

um I remember working with blue cross blue shield south carolina and they got into this whole concept of swim lanes and how a project moves down the swim lane and then it never that it can cross over into another swim lane at certain points. And how do you merge codes from one swim lane to the next swim lane? It was very, very bizarre, complicated, overly engineered process and the terminology just falls over really quick on on some of the. When you get into some some larger organizations.

A

Hopefully the smaller ones are going to pick up what's more popular instead of inventing stuff on their own.

B

Okay, we're almost done here, there's two other items that I want to uh cover. I have um added uh thr two or three categories. Let me look to see if I can see it, you stop.

A

B

Two are for blogs and I'm going to put some blogs out there, so the website will have three categories of blogs and I haven't. Let me go look to see the categories I created.

B

I created one called get ups and configuration management, ortilius contributors and ortillious tips and tricks just to get us started, so that will be I'll have that out on the website, hopefully by the end of today or tomorrow, with some uh with some actual blogs in those categories and it'll be displayed on the front page or actually, I think I'm going to put a menu item that just says blogs on the on the uh and then I'll go ahead and I'll create um some initial uh issues uh asking for blogs for those three categories uh so that we can start getting blogs at least added to the website via a pull request through git.

B

So we can start tracking who's working on blogs a little better, and then we have a new person who's on um sergio. You want to introduce yourself.

A

Looks like there's a couple new people. Oh.

B

Is there a couple new people? Okay, if you're new, please uh turn your uh camera on, so you can introduce yourself.

F

Well, my name is sergio. um I work as a consultant. I work a lot with kubernetes. I know argo cd, for example um I'm from ladam from chile. So if my english is not that well sorry about that, I was curious about ortelis and I see like I don't know there was the issues open and maybe need help, and I'm here for the.

B

Super thank you it's great to have somebody from chile. It's on my it's on my bucket list to visit.

F

I I will waiting for you. Okay,.

B

You know I was raised in california and chile's got to be a lot like california, except with not so many people and still beautiful. The landscape still has to be pretty.

F

B

Anybody else out there want to introduce themselves to the team, don't be.

C

B

All right- and we did you see that chrome and I have our um artillery zoom backgrounds. I spent the day before christmas, making sure that we had christmas presents for everybody, so I created four zoom backgrounds and you can get them from the bottom of the events page at the artillious dot io website.

C

Oh, it's like tracy, like stewart she's here, so I am sure that so like he's a colleague of mine, we work in the same one.

B

It's fun to make them.

C

And also like this online.

D

What show is that from that? You guys have the same one.

B

It's from the uh tv show called the expanse. It's a series they're on their third um season. Steve. Is that right? I think.

A

So, third or fourth, I and I believe it's an amazon prime one.

B

It's pretty fun cool. It's really.

D

B

Yeah, it's good! It's if you you'll love it, it's it's a great premise and it's got some really they've just incorporated a good job of incorporating. You know what could be brought over or continued on in terms of like us, culture or just world culture into uh you have they've we've we've colonized our solar system, basically, so that you know we have mars fighting it. You know fights against earth and then we have something called the belters. It's pretty. It's really cool.

A

Yeah tracy one little thing I see on here that we have um a cdf podcast coming january, 7th.

E

Oh yeah, I forgot all about that, is that is the podcast on january, 7th or the webinar. That's.

B

When I get recorded.

A

Okay- and I don't so, if anybody's interested being on the podcast, we could do a panel discussion or yeah something like that. um The panels work out really well, uh if you're interested in uh talking about uh artelias or just microservices or whatever uh in general, um we can fit that into the podcast yeah.

B

We should do, we should do a podcast and then we do a webinar and we should do the webinar as a panel too. So please send me an email um tracy deploy hub.

B

If you want to be part of the podcast and the webinar and I'll make sure and send you the info um for the podcast, I think we can be pretty relaxed about it. I'll put together a list of questions that jackie can ask us and then on the um then we can do an expanded version of that for the webinar.

A

Yeah, so you won't be going in blind. You'll know what the questions are up front and things like that. So um it's a good way to get out there and and get some exposure and also the podcasts, um the you know, they're recorded ahead of time uh and then jackie will go through and um edit them clean them up.

A

So it's if you stumble or something like that, not a big deal um that that will get uh sorted out in the editing process.

B

And I'll send an email out to everybody today about both of those items, thanks for reminding me steve.

A

Yeah, I just saw that on the on the uh outreach.

B

Stuff yeah, so the more the merrier would be fun, so don't hesitate if you want to show up for that.

A

uh Tracy on the blog entries, how are we uh are we doing those through um a github issue or um just email, yeah.

B

I think I'm just gonna go ahead and create a couple of just to get get. It started to make it obvious that we need them, I'm going to create a couple of issues for each like two for each of the categories and then in the future we can just create an issue and then a pull request. If you want to submit a blog, I would like to be able to start tracking the blogs via github or.

F

B

So we can track who's, doing the work easier right and then I'll, take it from there and do the editing and get it posted or I'll eventually find someone to help with doing that. Yep, because I'm a really bad editor, I'm so bad.

B

I need a compiler yeah, all right cool, which there should be by now right for every language, a document compiler that basically goes and edits your entire document for you automatically. Why does a human still have to do that? I don't understand.

F

I think we have too many languages.

B

All right so I'll get that uh get that done by the uh end of day tomorrow or um is my goal.

E

A

All right, I think that.

F

I have one question sure I was looking at the issues. uh I don't know if I missed something, but I would like to have maybe like a prioritization about the issues, because I don't know it's like I'm just looking randomly about the issues. um Maybe if there is a way like hey, these are the top 10 on top 20. I don't know something like that. Just don't I don't know working on things that are not so important at this moment.

A

Yeah we're working with um who is it siddharth uh who's not on? The call today um is pulling together a kanban trello board to start organizing that stuff.

F

A

So that's going to be that just got started before the holidays and we'll we'll start. You know getting that rolled out and getting everybody on the on the the trello board and stuff uh after the new year.

B

And uh sergio we do have a fairly big project, we're gonna start kick the year off with um so, and that has to do with these component sets. So you'll probably it'll be easier to see some of the tasks assigned to that particular level work.

B

More than likely we're going to do what we need to do to solve the netflix problem, initially, where you want to be able to create almost like a release train for microservices themselves, even though it might not be an application, but there may be you know a set of security microservices and four of them always have to be released. At the same time, we have to somehow tie those together and that's uh will be the first uh big project for this team.

F

Okay and we'll read about that yep.

B

And we're gonna start learning about that we've. I posted that what the you know what you you may know more about it if you know argo, um but how we're gonna work on solving that problem. So I'm glad that you know argo.

F

Well, I guess you say a few yeah. uh Well, we can, if you need maybe uh I'll be I can. I can help with that.

B

Okay, yeah and we'll be sure that that uh the three co-community managers um get that stuff up on a on a trello kanban board. So it's clear what we're all needing to work on.

A

Anything else all right, so the next meeting I believe, is going to be in january right january.

A

And we have the date.

C

A

C

A

So it looks like we'll touch base, one more time before the podcast um and also in january, the um working groups be started back up on uh their regular schedule. So those just got canceled for this. These couple weeks here uh in between the holidays in the states.

C

uh Steve we also like had uh like we had uh discussed that we are going to have a session regarding the integration with the ci cd of ots.

A

Yes, I will get that scheduled um uh integration, part of ortelius um I'll, look at the calendar and get that scheduled uh in the beginning of january there, because that will kind of come into play with when we're talking about application sets and all that stuff. um What we may do is uh I'll look at the timing to see if it uh if we can get it I'll talk to tracy to see if you want to make that meeting before or after the the netflix armory into it uh meeting or not.

A

Because, sometimes uh just I'll I'll figure that out.

A

And then um oh crumb, I I I I just need to talk to you offline, real, quick after this I'll I'll. uh Just talk to you on discord, social.

E

All right cool all right. Anybody else.

E

All right holiday.

D

B

D

Everybody have a safe holiday new.

B

A

Stay safe, I'm.

B

Gonna stay home and.

A

Play animal crossing.

G

Woohoo big new year.

D

D