.Net Foundation Design Reviews, 3 Mar 2020

Previous Meeting Next Meeting

⏯

youtube image

►

From YouTube: .NET Design Review: ARM Intrinsics

Description

00:00:00 - Approved: Arm Shift and Permute intrinsics https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/issues/31324#issuecomment-594124186
01:21:19 - Approved: Extend ObsoleteAttribute https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/issues/33089
01:27:41 - Approved: NativeCallableAttribute should be a public API https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/issues/32462#issuecomment-594132248
01:38:17 - Approved: Low level API support for RCW and CCW management https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/issues/1845#issuecomment-594151682

A

Right, so this is a continuation from last time, so we reviewed I want to say two thirds of this last time, and so today we just walk the remainder of that. Hopefully it doesn't take us. Two hours would be good.

A

I have to be honest, I kind of lost the train of thought.

A

Just look at the notes on last time, so I think.

A

Yes, it was one follow-up from you tenors, like yeah, then I would see whether they are just applying a pattern or a new API. So in which case we'll take another look.

B

Right, and so the first few here are just the same pattern, so in number, mid, number, pairwise and mid number across and then been pairwise and men across are all equivalent to the max numbers that we've already reviewed and approved just for men instead of max.

B

um And then use multiply add is similar to the huge multiply. No we've, not we've, not reviewed keys multiplied. Yet that was when we needed to.

B

And then multiply extend we need to review the reciprocal estimates. I, don't think any progress was made on those we're going to move them to a separate issue and then reverse element. This needs to be.

B

A

You all right so then mid number I mean number pairwise I think we already had comments on that, one that we wanted some different naming I think on those right which.

C

D

D

Don't nevermind, let's remember what I was saying.

A

So the minimum number of pairwise I guess it goes if it's the same pattern should be good to go all right.

C

That's my solution.

A

The number cross.

A

A

E

And then what a waste the.

A

64 versions are already there.

B

Where applicable, yes,.

F

G

It's in pair, why your max pair wise didn't have me.

H

They do want me for losers,.

B

No, the the 64-bit versions, don't have long view long.

F

So there's no I guess because max pairwise long.

B

Right because if there's no scalar version for them effectively, Oh.

F

This is just Maxim.

I

It took me a minute to come to that conclusion. You.

G

Don't need a complicated instruction, but a simple one.

A

It seems ample the medic.

F

Across the life is the word match up in.

B

D

B

He returned kites are vector, op, scalars, exit.

A

In the hole 64, except for the right, either 64 or 128 right.

I

They're all just came on.

F

Across as vector 64, he always is the return type.

G

Or inductor 128.

B

It's returning a scalar result, but it returns it in a vector register, and so we have to turn it also in a vector register for vector type.

A

And they all 64, even though honey 2018 is all in the same room right.

E

Yes, in mine multiply, add a fuse, multiply and pay for two concepts: yeah.

G

Of you decide if we don't like apple I came over. Was that money or nobody? Let me look I'm going.

I

Oh wow, we actually did call them out in the manure.

G

Everybody's, it was the like being weird different word. It was really all we were going for.

A

Yeah I didn't left and right right.

E

A

B

Yeah, oh absolutely.

H

B

Multiply add and subtract, which are the integer equivalents, and they are not a fused operation like if that has no concept for.

B

And then the ones that tape flow- a third parameter, be named those by selected scaler, taking a vector and a byte right index. Yes,.

E

I'm confused it's a different.

B

It's similar to something we reviewed already, which is multiply subtract, but it's slightly different in that it's a huge operation because it operates over floating-point values, I.

G

Think the fusible point out here, assuming you call that have an age sense and it's the pattern. You.

A

We go to the names of the parameters.

G

Your formula shows: oh it's this for each other, sorry, what was it stays with you in it? So.

E

Be a good move left and right yeah. Let them right.

G

The left left sub thingy left some of them at times the right constant.

F

Must accumulate or something I think that left and right.

I

Yeah I mean any other. Api is white as a vector, but it's the same and then anyway, for these and the other eight you guys, we call the middle.

I

J

I

Photos for you.

H

Then the formulas right it is in the Union, all right wins.

G

I, don't think we.

I

Quite like gonna use.

B

H

E

Unless the tenant will win the prize for most message, edits to the BCAM after we consider size on Disko, I think.

B

We weren't too concerned and posted all of the ones that.

B

It is for a non-supportive platform. They compile down to the same method body definition since we're all just throw platform, not supported exception. Anything or the current platform is recursive, and so all our different mental bodies, but I, don't think we've had any for that. Yet.

F

One fan of the same method body the compiler for coming to the same afternoon.

F

G

Yeah, why is multiplying, extend non-physical multiplying? Did we use extend as a previous offer someone.

G

A

A

You, the Jared, was very handsome.

B

Jared asked why we aren't passing by in, and the reason is because it's vector code passing by n is less efficient, since it means tappers takin. All of these are functionally in line into a single instruction and so functionally they are handled by value not by reference. I was.

A

About to say, like the argument really is because their intrinsic, the semantics obviously put the thing in a register right. The question reloading by the.

G

So, which one are we on they're multiplying or for SSE, a publicist from instructional support, emoticon and I assume that's thing. He told her football age, oh, why did you recommend me to extend some.

B

That's the name given by the actual instruction. In this case, it also has special handling, for if one value is zero and the other value is infinite in particular, it returns two.

E

But what is what what's happening zero times? Infinity is too.

B

Point values in the vectors of two source: Cindi registers the resulting floating-point value in a vector and write affected destination. If one value is zero and the other is infinite, the result is two point: zero. It.

G

Has a math major right, hey once you've combined or once you put infinity in a formula you are allowed to choose whatever is convenient, as the answers were. Wasn't it like? Oh yeah,.

E

G

E

E

E

Okay, so alright did you get the.

I

Note, oh, but the one that didn't need: Fisher change, the method, we're.

G

Busy multiply extended, which one so.

H

E

G

Moulton we thinks the one that was missing the last parameter to be multiplied extended.

E

By select yeah, so the prima Dona also named multiply extended. Okay.

A

And then the the the vector so, on the right hand, side, we still say by it right: it's not vector right. It's one, dr. zakir, naik,.

E

Yeah all right and.

B

Matching the size of black just correct yep.

G

And if we did, we previously talked about a multiply extended because searching searching for multiply, extend I, see it at various places and the pairs are the issues too big for me to tell what's in which states it's.

B

Because the entire API proposal is now duplicated in this issue, like four times.

G

You're welcome just making sure that we just need to go fix the thing that we hadn't already.

G

But we're looking at these 64-bit Spurs.

G

I swear, we were people.

A

Yeah I have to say, like you type this money illegally, when you never cut it away, can fold stuff.

A

E

G

I

You I guess yeah better.

G

G

G

A

Also, tennis, somehow managed to up the indentation cells and parts are off by one space in.

G

E

A

A

I also think of a brace mismatch now on regulations. Anything works is anyway, so.

E

Reciprocal estimate we good with them yeah we've already approved perceptible estimate.

I

B

Said version which I don't think, it's all doubt it that needed more investigation as to what fight was.

B

Okay, that's the comment: should the arguments be something more specific than love tonight.

F

F

As you recall, injustice.

F

A

B

Because they shouldn't be taking a index, I think was the other bit.

B

F

But we also have a figure out what the news reciprocal.

E

Then the square would estimate I think talked about this as well last time, yeah, that's what we call it for the other.

A

The shave is also correct.

G

H

H

The overload here.

E

I was going to say.

I

Deferred for the all the other stuff.

C

A

What is the reciprocal square rule, step, estimate or.

E

Oh, it's just just.

K

Assume square one step: let's.

E

See and the signature is this thing we still to figure out right now that works for me and then reverse the only thing that you.

G

So I think we or we we improved previously reverse element fights this.

F

B

As well so so for I did, I did figure out what the left and right are. So it doesn't necessarily matter which is which, but in this case the typical usage is left is the thing you're getting the reciprocal for so, if you wanted, one over 1717 would be the left and then the right hand. Side is essentially the changes based on which iteration you're all.

G

So you take the output of put it as right on the next stuff, yeah.

B

So let me just screenshot this that here's an example of Newton's method for computing, the reciprocal and how the algorithm would functionally be used.

A

And, oh, my god can I not project this.

G

So the left would be the value you're trying to get the reciprocal for and the right would be being paid or effective work. But.

B

Me it doesn't necessarily matter since multiplication is commutative.

B

Right ones, basically, the devalue, your computing, the reciprocal form, the other one, is a value that depends on which step in the series you're doing. First.

E

B

So I think left and right might be the best, and we will just need a document that this is doing effectively. Two minus x time type, 2 minus left times right.

A

And it was fine.

A

A

When the thinking shows are correct, there, basically, is that the cooler yeah.

C

A

So we drove to buy Linux. Thank.

I

B

Inspector vector.

A

And then okay, so then reverse element bits before we had reverse animal bites. This is gonna, be right. Yes, and this.

E

G

This is our department reverses. It reverses its in a keyword. Oh wait.

G

They're a version of our but that works on those elements.

D

Well, our beat works on by a tweet.

L

Ellen, technically, half versus the opening to have versions to spoken to keep the decisis.

I

Orbit work on page each pair of 60mm just wasn't working the document.

B

I only see one that's a 32-bit and they're in yeah, because when.

F

We looked at reverse.

G

Fights the but the width of each element was passed in as a concept to the instruction, though I don't see any such parameter, which is what's throw.

B

I I say the thing I was looking at this dealer version, not the vector version.

A

We also said last time: I need some more work or clarity, also not sure.

B

No, that was for curse, element bias, which is different.

G

So there is a vectorized artwork.

F

F

All right, yes, there is.

G

So the arrangement specifier is that bits or bytes it says 8v or its paint elements of bite, size, okay, so 64 or 100.

B

So these signatures should be correct.

B

G

It's curious because I'm reading, like looking for your arms developer manual, it just says reads: each vector element of a source register reverses.

F

G

Bits of the elements and then writes it to the destination, but it doesn't actually say how why an element is if.

B

You look for the code for this encoding. It has integer key size.

I

G

So it's not just enough to read the docs I actually have to go. What the hell! It's incredible!.

A

A

Right and I think we can consider this one done right. Yeah.

C

A

Paste it in the entire API service now so we have one comment that has everything in there I'm just the activity today.

A

I think you already approved it last time for the half that we had so should be good right. Let's close this one, then just and permutation six.

A

H

H

Oh, is this the lower the fun names camera.

C

That's the next one.

A

Boy, we never run out of.

A

F

F

B

It'd be vectorized in the scalar version. Are the same instruction page.

B

You just have to scroll down a little bit to see this scalar encoding.

G

um Don't we normally make things like shift, parameter, bytes what there may be insisted and I miss correctly. The best me.

B

I think it depends on how big the allowed immediate is in this case it is only a bite, so it should likely be a bite.

F

F

Yeah the valid values was your vicinity.

B

Yes, so what this does is it uhh?

B

It lets shifts the left element, a shift amount and then it.

B

Uhh 62nd operate opposite with the mass and then is. It would be shifted result.

B

Yeah, that is, art, is mess.

B

Basc is a series of 1 bits based on the size and then left shifted by the shift amount. Mr.

K

G

The mask is a fixed value.

B

Yes, well, no, it depends on what the shipped amount was so I just paste it to code in.

L

So I do think the first few values probably need to be a factor as well, because it's a scale operation on the simple machine design.

L

L

You and publish and redeem a price on bicycle or something.

B

Since it's only taking in scalars and operating on scalars, that is the lowest element. I think we just post fix it with scaler, which is different from the multiply ones which were taking a vector that wasn't the zero element.

B

And then, in the context of here, LS L is left shift logical.

B

J

J

B

B

B

If there's actually a diagram here that I missed what page is advisable, um 1477 in the particular copy of the manual I have.

B

H

You, if you could correctly always know all right.

B

Well, there's like a there's, a beef, coffee and a D coffee and then there's another copy, depending on whether you want the additional instructions for like RB 8 to 83 and 84. You.

K

Energy is supposed to come to the teams.

D

You think I can project this right and you.

G

Also send those Tanner away to the exact manual that you're looking at yes, I, don't have.

B

It I had to like create an account and log into okay.

I

Because if I found one on the website, that doesn't have any pretty diagram.

L

I, don't we don't have to login together anymore, I thinking program to the outside? Okay, this is the link that should have.

L

L

You can also just give the occasional emphasis all and easier to look at and a child video.

L

A

A

All right, so we happy with that.

B

I think we just need to change it to be vector, like tomorrow, head said, but otherwise it looks. Good did.

A

You make this I, do you want? Nick was easy for what they need.

B

Yeah sixty-four believe.

A

Trend time, as well as the arguments.

G

But there is an SLI scale, or how does that work is that is that really using vectors under the covers on that's.

B

What it appears to do, based on the encoding here, the.

A

Shift remains as Huard.

G

And what's the behavior, if someone passes in uh nada needing it, for that, do we bail with one final one so.

B

What we do for x86 is there's a fallback mechanism where, if no longer in lines, but the method body or the actual call ends up being a jump table.

G

That means we're basing we actually need some boys or something that will warn me when that's about to happen editor that basically saying like you think you're about to call this very specific attraction but in reality you're making a call to a jump table. That's it's a business program.

B

M

Thank Carol I would just suggest that something we should consider not specific to this. It's you know much broader issue, yeah and just get a case.

B

Well, I was going to say the behavior you gave might also depend on what optimizations the jet happens to decide to do like if you're going across to method, Falls there's some known issues where Ava might not be treated as a constant and you might get a call in certain cases, but in other cases it will propagate to constant down.

G

Encouraging this answer, but consider exploding this into left shift and insert zero through left shift and insert 31 or 30, with whatever the maximum.

B

I, don't think so. We got lots of other cases on x86 where this already happened. So those have up to.

L

B

G

B

K

Doesn't it seem like it was something C sharp compiler? Let's teach our language set some kind of a tribute on the perimeter. It says this must be a constant industry.

G

Just like strong enough, in fact that we can there.

B

Was a proposal for that and it was determined. This was a variation Aereo and it wasn't worthwhile for broader language support, but.

I

We can do it as an analyzer, though, because of more flexibility.

G

Okay, that's good.

G

Right shift and insert.

G

Arithmetic or walking home I guess the first one is law is arithmetic and the second was logical.

G

Or did I just want everything that we ever.

C

A 50, the opposition.

B

Says the operation says logical shift right, yeah.

G

But you're retaining the high bits of.

I

G

G

Because when you, when you do, let's get here attain the low bits of left, but when you do right have, presumably you retain the high notes.

G

K

G

K

You you, you insert the low bit of ray.

K

Because writers are the insert, so you keep shift the left in turn and then you insert the little bits right.

G

Okay, but you're not I, guess what what I'm trying to say is like you're, not bringing in zero bits as part of the first method group, because you're you're, replacing one that would have been to zero bits with some other hearing.

K

G

Here, I guess would be you're replacing what would have been too high. That's when some of those data, so arithmetic was more.

B

It does somewhat in that, if it was if it was arithmatic in boring, but keep ones if the most significant element was.

B

Because you you or bee bee, it was all from right, so it is functionally a logical right shift and then orange right you for the UH permits you.

B

A

A

Well then, good with the name, as is ado much.

B

It might make it more clear if we called it right shift, logical or logical, redshift,.

E

Preferences for logic, Larissa's.

A

Quite logical I would probably go to write logical because it seems a bit more metric that makes sense.

B

We did shift to write, logical and shift right arithmetic in x86.

D

What does the arm call it.

B

Our ms ship fight, rather than yeah no harms, also shift right. That's what the s RI is chip right, immediate princess, right answer, yeah sure frightening. Sir sorry,.

B

So maybe we should just call the top one shift left optical in the bottom shift right, logical.

K

We need the word insert another one.

G

Right and insert okay push. It left logical answer, shift right, logical answer: yeah.

B

I think that would be my phone just to make it clear and since that's the naming wheel with x86 and it matches the instruction aiming other than the logical bit.

E

E

Oh the names then, when I say addresses in social.

B

That looks right to me if everyone else agrees.

G

I figure either way on whether or not we need the logical construction is complicated enough that no one can stumble upon it. They're gonna have to yeah I, don't.

I

Think we need one at all: I'm, okay, with it being there.

A

Hell, whatever you said, you think it would be good to have it there. You.

M

Know I would just right, but.

A

Yeah I can't agree with Jeremy that it already looks complicated enough that you're not likely to you called accidentally but like yeah I, also don't have feelings going in the other.

B

There are shifting.

B

Like there's a signed, integer ship trying to accumulate immediate, so this.

M

B

A case of just consistency, it makes it you're in the context of everything else, yeah.

G

Yeah I'm; okay, with that you're.

E

G

The word logical, yeah, keep the word logical.

B

E

K

Right, let's do that yeah I believe it is just seems unnecessarily complex, maybe in the space I think it's.

G

Complex in the abstract or in the in the whole, looking simpler, I'm, gonna trust, Tanner's assertion all right.

A

Then that's cool and believe I'm saying.

A

Shift that insert I suppose everything that says you in shift. It really should say bite.

C

G

Confirming SR is our the same operation just they're encoded differently in the different disability, yeah.

B

For our 32 okay, so.

G

The 64 would it still affect your operation, it just doesn't use the.

A

I wanna rename it to shift left and insert as opposed over shift, left logical and insert them.

C

A

And the fact that 128 has support for you long is correct right.

B

Trying to you yeah the.

A

Support for you long and long, I suppose this, but that's correct because last time.

A

B

B

I

B

I was gonna. Ask tomorrow, is the vector 64 long. We knew long supposed to be in bass.

L

The skin of women yeah.

B

As I was looking at the operation for all M coatings and it doesn't have a different one, Taylor for.

L

The scalar one and since only has one team, it only supports a supported.

B

Right but but it's underpaid it's underarm base right now, not so.

C

Ii asked it has to be moved into it, consuming. Okay, that's right! That should.

L

Be addressing they're advancing jar of 64.

L

L

B

B

B

I, don't see a restriction on it eating. It says it supports equal before. Yes, all right.

C

Elements equals one yeah.

C

C

H

L

I think the offense in 264 should I was before, because the is to renewables and I was been winning.

B

For the 64-bit dr. Baron that at Eastside 64 is invalid right, alright, so that means that vector 64 law, ballot and applet.

L

You and as you go to register yeah very short, a 64-bit seems easy. After support 64-bit element, size.

B

As far as I can tell from the building.

C

Here, yeah you're right and since the benzos and sizes.

A

A

Should we take this off under Chevy.

B

We can probably follow up a little bit more offline, but the question is just whether it moves to advance MD or advanced MD, a 64 for the vector six before you long versions.

A

If I'm an API standpoint, I think it's fine either way, it's just whatever is correct. Right.

A

What should I write some stuff, absolutely say the from the average over. What are we talking about the.

E

You, but what is the skill of Versailles, maybe specially.

A

E

That we just talked about first, but we changed him also to take electrons right.

B

All right so so those ones have to be under advance and each the question is: should they be under advanced city directly or advanced indeed 64 place, and so we just need to fall off and determine which one it is. There's.

J

The rules and suffix dealer.

B

Yeah, that would be the others together. Ben.

G

G

The ones we already talked about are now chef left, logical and insert scaler, but then the method group we were looking at is doesn't get the word scanner.

G

L

So the one in armpit should get the mascara and the others. Don't so.

A

The advanced theory should.

G

Because look scaler on the ones that need the word scaler and the hook. Let's move on.

A

A

All right, the one advanced MD we just only renamed them to anime convention, except for the scale apart and I changed this shift to be bite-sized.

C

A

I guess for the right one: it would be this things. We would call this shift right and in sir.

A

Yeah, then again and shift would be, which.

C

A

Extract and arrow low.

B

Yeah, so this reads: each vector element arrows each value to half the original width. This is the result into a vector and writes it to the lower or upper half of the destination. So that would be the low and the high.

B

uh Yes, because, in the case of in the case of low, it clears the upper half all in the case of I. It takes the upper half without affecting the other bits so effectively you would do low and then you would use the result of that as the accumulator in the high operand.

B

The high operation.

G

B

G

Something you're going to splat into the resulting value, I think.

B

An x86 we called that low lower rather than accumulator.

H

Did we have an article 86.

B

No, but there are things like low to high and low blow where it would would load a value into the lower or upper half the result, and it would take B. It would take the existing value for D low or upper half. We called that lower and upper in that case. Okay,.

I

Oh I see that we should probably do just anything for them lower in value.

G

Because the lower part of the lower is maintained by and the upper part of the lower is thrown out.

G

G

C

C

E

K

There's a nice day.

H

While this instruction ended at 1:00 work on it, even.

H

G

I'm, sorry, so that it being things out there.

B

So it reads the corresponding even-numbered elements from two source registers starting at zero. This is the result from the first source in two consecutive elements in the lower half of a vector and the result from the second source register in two consecutive elements of the upper and then writes.

C

C

B

Okay mo has it I will copy and paste the diagram again.

E

You you just want to make my.

E

B

I think we call the ACEF unpack blow and unpack hi on x86 I. Think that's your problem.

A

A grito unzip seems like an appropriate name for this operation. Think.

G

You had slightly different behavior.

G

And that might be because I.

B

G

High works on the high elements of both input vectors, whereas this is working on simply odd and even rather than all high or although.

B

Oh yeah and unpack also does interleaving.

F

Because we use unpack for Lionel.

C

Yeah, and that would know.

G

G

Your own for servicing.

G

A

All right, then, it's the same changes for unzip, odd.

G

As employees at high, so the method name is clearer than the parameter names and what you're trying to do is, if you know.

C

G

You because I know that, like on on the Intel ones, I always have to go back to the manual. Do remember how very intimately, whereas if the parameter name is here, we're not putting lower like I can just look at the parameter know how it's going to be requisite result. I, don't need to.

G

Which almost makes me wish we would have nearly had Anton as a prayer.

K

And so does first or second.

G

Of presumably, they should go in the same order as the actual.

B

Yeah so so left is lower and right. His upper.

A

Right so then zip blows then.

B

I think they might just suggested we call them odd and even instead of left and right, I'm.

G

E

To that name I just kind of wish, we had done it in hell because my my deadly we're left odd with yella either. If it's.

B

Left, just even and right as Han.

G

Oh like if, though, not reading the manual looking only in the method, a if it were as if lo with.

K

G

Evil doctor odd than I would expect, like I, would expect any outputs at index 0 even sub 0 and index 1 on Sub Zero and index, who even sub 1 and index 3 awesome one and then so. That's alright! So your your hand, motions went from right to left like your index that there's went from left to right so which direction.

J

K

You intend that even an odd refer to the index in the destination.

K

Yes, which is because I'm not exactly right.

K

Related to the per to the argument of so it's not.

N

K

The the argument, if calling the argument even doesn't imply only the even elements of the argument are getting used, will be confusing or.

G

I guess what I'm saying that is unpacked low, even in odd things, grow out everything that's in the upper portion of between input parameters and then explode each of them individually. Once they're exploded the odd parameters values will be in the odd indices of the destination. The even parameters values will be in the evening, that's kind of where I was going to that. Maybe but maybe that's a bit too using money. You did Hector someone.

F

Remember your position are.

H

We thinking you its.

J

Little little no.

G

I'm using it shouldn't matter anyway. Well, but you want, you want the index being the code notation the memory layout versus the code, notation they just which way zeros.

K

M

G

Like it depends on how you let you load it in, and what.

I

If you dropped to a lower type over.

I

Anyway, but I don't remember offhand, yes,.

G

Feel free to to blow that argument to smithereens injuries better before our names I like Holly a little bit about the day that make sense so.

B

These are the ones that a better blend to unpack well and high.

A

Was it important.

B

A

What do we you know? Should we name them even the author? Should we go back to left right.

J

B

Don't have a I, don't have a strong either. If some people think odd, it might be confusing then left and right are probably the next best yeah.

A

Leave it at left right for now and then the pie, basically as proposer suppose, I'm gonna check every parameter time, but it seems to check up.

G

Or these on both 32 and 64-bit by the night.

L

L

A little bit as because until 2:30 circle, there are disruptive yeah.

H

What does it mean.

L

Oh, if Jesus sent me it's just just one, just one or the water clouds here will be overwritten who it's a different operation. Oh boy, it's.

B

L

B

I think that's something that we can normalize in the register. Allocator like we do for x86, though that just means there are W.

L

Yeah effect effect the other issue that, because that'll to rewrite your algorithm, take into account that it's the sort of at random to became the potential.

F

That means we would have to have a breath registered if we wanted to have different overloads the thirties with them, and we didn't do that in many of.

I

The other artists.

C

G

And historically it hasn't seemed to be a problem. I, don't know it hasn't been a problem for Intel at least I. Don't know why it would be a problem here, but.

B

And on in town most instructions until the backs of men were armed w so.

G

You I mean we could I guess we could consider that later and really I, don't if it comes down to it, but we should see what falls out if people are writing code, that is low performance or the because of weird alligator doesn't arm. Have a crazy high number of doctor registers.

B

I don't know Daisy hi, it's 32.

B

It's kind of fair number or.

G

So them touch lady sets out I think their continued success. 116.

B

Well, unless you're on avx-512 and then it's got 32, but then it also has twice the bit width and the upper lowers are individually addressable. So, okay.

I

G

Yeah I'm not I'm, not too worried that about anywhere else.

G

A

Even the option you also have is just not exposing that then one, if you think it's bad.

G

That we, we didn't do that for the SC and in practice it on even on all systems. You still get really good performance games from using reference.

D

We doesn't stop okay, so yeah I mean that guy just saying this is the options you know.

E

So what should we do? Then? Zip hi I think we saw these okay as I suppose you know and then just about there. What about the rift thing- and you know there's.

B

I think there should be a follow-up item to see exactly what the behavior of our 32 is and then someone should probably talk to Carol since she's the register allocator person and see what right thoughts are.

E

And that's for both zip loans, apart or probably a lot of the.

A

And they are destructive on 32.

L

That was yeah so I'm talking to you, don't have a super high perception and hold on things to calculate at once. The version you want.

L

B

I see that's different than it being rmw.

B

But then, then, then, zip in zip below should be moved to the n64 subclass. This.

K

Is all arm 64 subclass right now.

B

Okay, I miss that.

M

I'm sorry, I'm I got distracted and remind me what the register allocation issue is for this. This is the issue of whether it should be.

B

There was a slight misunderstanding when t'market initially described a I'd, understood it as unarmed 32. These were the same instructions just rmw instead of taking destined sources separate, but it's actually one instruction that computes both at the same time.

M

Okay, okay, so it's a non-issue I guess is.

G

It so is it when it's computing, both at the same time it's writing to a destination register and also destroying one of the end. The registers right.

G

That seems like a separate API that we should expose anyway for people who want to.

B

Well, for forearm 32, we're not extreme I'm doing any arm 30 to work for by other than just making sure the API surface is consistent. So we can eventually expose it, but without needing to have a bunch of separate yeah. Wasn't.

G

That instruction, also since a lot of sex before, though no oh, oh.

I

B

Seems useful by you just do two separate calls and you get same thing.

M

Just to clarify it's dry, okay, this does not produce.

B

The ones we're reviewing right now do not there's a separate one form 32 that does, but that's out of scope for fire on that bridge.

M

I've done confusing.

K

People for the day, it's withholding or assault response all.

A

Right and it's finished transpose even and transpose or because then we're done for this issue.

B

Yes, so I'm suppose even beats corresponding even numbered vector elements from the two sources starting zero. This is each result in two consecutive elements of the result.

K

So you gotta go.

G

K

Again, there's a good diagram, yeah.

B

Well, once again result.

G

Of zero is left of zero result of one is right of zero result of two is left of 2. Yes, okay,.

G

Oh Jim I think right shift it because.

B

So it functionally performs the transpose yeah.

F

Let's hear some kinda.

G

This, this isn't what I understand to be a trend whose operation matter, but okay,.

B

This is a transpose of a 2x2 matrix.

G

And in these diagrams, which? What are they calling zero left to the right.

B

Right but be in is in his left. Lamb is right.

G

Right but then, when we say even and on which one is element because.

B

One is punished even and here.

K

We have two lines right, but vector: Sub Zero is the on the race is.

G

The least significant element, so it's on the right back.

K

But I guess as long as the zeros are consistent with zeros, so it's.

K

Yeah so here in what.

G

Is even yeah so right, so it's what I was thinking of right. Take right fifty by one and now I mean this one's. Think, okay, Oh quite and see how it works out to be it. Transpose the pole or Sun paper. I mean it's been 15 years.

G

H

Left is right, so.

E

I'm, a bigot lost boy. Oh, it is.

K

Any water in it, what is even and n, is left and okay boy. M is right. Yes, what good that mentioned? I expected I mean I, wouldn't call it an.

G

M I, wouldn't I, wouldn't call it that, but in the context of the picture on the left being called even and in being left, I agree.

K

Well, I guess in both in the even case you're only using the even elements of the input and the odd case you're only using the odd own right. But it's which one is going.

G

Which one is effectively being reimbursed after eight and in both cases right is the one being rien.

K

What well or no, no it left us being last. No, it's whichever one even ready to read it next and I left.

F

Laughs yeah left is always.

G

That's what I was like that was the in destination destination. Zero always comes from. If yes, but.

K

Left always goes to zero into this case.

G

Again, this is probably an instruction that every time you use it actually can be reached or transpose, and even even elements of left are being preserved in transpose odd the odd elements, but for being but there'll be other people, but I mean would be missing. Yes, I would say.

K

They all know that so.

L

M

G

Of right there being preserved, can you reform it.

K

Seems fun yeah.

G

I am glad I don't have to write that up.

A

All right so then means we're done with this one.

A

A

A

We're still waiting for our friends in a draw up and they just throw up an issue that I just filed.

E

Visit only is to api's.

K

And here tomorrow just submitted the re-implement. These two.

B

And then next time we have time for our six there's still three, two five one, two.

B

And then I think, there's still about 40 more intrinsic, that I need to get up onto a proposal which are variants of shifting. For the most part, that's.

C

L

K

L

When you're under seven seven.

A

All right so quick thing on this one, so we want to make more things obsolete in order to make more things obsolete. We have to solve the problem that people draw obsolete warnings. Let me do that, and the mechanism we came up with or I came up with is that we introduced the idea of the diagnostic IDE that applications that they have to do to use. The idea is that you can share those diagnostic IDs.

A

So, for example, you can say here's years that said twelve types that went a binary format or they all get the same ID and then here's the or for context that they had, which is specially the names best qualified name of the rule right, it's fine, it just gets next to bed and the next problem is really mostly UI fallen because we Esther sure the error code.

A

So if this thing is like that wide it's going to be a but I say this exactly said that you only ever see like micro and then it's like that's not very useful right. That's that and then the second one is the URL formats so like they have. Is like I think in the compiler today on the IDE, when your analyzer that actually has it you're all set up the actual ID they show. You is a hyperlink, you can click on it.

A

The discoverability of is a super 4, so I felt another issue to add it. Quick back to the ideas for code fix up to the IDE, then also to just launch the browser, but the idea is that you will have that. I made a URL for me, because the idea is that you can have one format specified in it which base you just get to a place at the diagnostic ID.

A

So then, if you only have to have one URL for your entire library and not have to repeat yourself over and over again- and if you get it right, those are the only two api's you have to add. That's.

E

A spring bring that format I would specify, or where is yeah, it's basically a brace, 0, brace right.

A

Anybody any concerns.

A

Anybody online with concerns.

A

Even decided which a fetus I.

E

F

To see it I think actually applied in practice, but care about that games. But so this is you you do the existing obsolete. You were going to do and then please yeah with any of the existing things or null. Unless.

A

I mean the other thing is like I think if we apply them I, don't think it would specify a message at all, because the message will default to this API has been obsoleted because we can't localize it and then the idea is that. Well, if you want to know why it's localized deprecated, and what to do you have to follow the URL? It's basically the idea that we don't have to specify every stuff in the narrow list.

N

Yeah really yeah I'm, not like URL and format in that Diagnostics ID almost seemed like a couple that might be useful for other attributes. Yeah.

A

I mean, like that's I mean the thing with this attribute. Is that it's it's already handled by the compiler, so every time you apply, the compiler will basically use it to produce a diagnostic, and we don't have many attributes like that in the VCR, where the compiler actually generates the diagnostic though they are, this would.

N

Make may be another attribute that a lot that can be applied, so if you see em absolutely attribute and there's other one. Oh that will use that, because then you can use that tuples for other potential URL, like attributes that you may want to adorn that you are own, but.

G

Then we want the compiler to give up like what we wanted to give you. A warning of. You seem to have applied a diagnostic ID attribute to a thing that doesn't have an attribute, but I understand, supports diagnostic ID, attribute yeah.

H

And they see I mean yeah. It makes too many error states.

G

And good part, just yeah.

I

A

Attributes are relatively cheap that the thing with this one is the one of the pushback from the compiler team. Is why don't you make a new attribute and write your own analyzer and the answer? Is you already have that thing you already handle it and advise to what analyzer then the problem is why I better replicate the exactly away from the compiler, which it's not straightforward, right, that's area of that all right. But now, let's look at your two issues which I, thankfully.

N

Yes, I would look at the attribute first I think that's gonna be much lessened. That's.

A

Nothing in contention see no.

N

It does not, but we could have one yeah.

N

This is so as it applies should be made, be a public API. It already is an API, it's just private we've been using it since I think was implemented in 2015, so it's inside the runtime. It's basically just saying that if the method that this is on as this attribute, it is only callable from a native anon managed content and an end. It is not callable from a managed. If you try to call it, it will do very bad exception.

N

It's a fail for. Yes, it's a built it it tears down the process. It's not that it would be the.

O

Device via encoded, it will be diagnosed with a failure. Yeah yeah, that's very you.

N

Don't mind on the 80 right: we don't randomly do, but it will as soon as you try. It will tear that.

G

This is a static method, with let's call it simple inputs and returns. That is be used as a call back from yeah little content and.

N

This is calling convention pretty straightforward. The entry point is I, don't know the history of this, but my my assumption is that if you put this on there and you have an a ot compiler, that is the entry point that will be on the native side. That's how we project it so that it can be like it's symbol and consumable from a native. Am I right? Yes, as a matter question.

G

Why can't it be function? That is true. The other thing they took it into returned an intimate static, but.

O

So it we can make it work, it just makes the implementation more complex and they are like corner cases to handle. What, if you call it, be a reflection for example. So now we kind of oh okay.

N

So do a lot the CLR state, but the whole point of this is to make it cheap from native. Like that's the whole is oh yes, we said we could do that, but then it's like well now you've taken away all them.

N

G

No reverse too stubborn calling that, for this I'm calling that from they to put into this yeah.

O

The idea behind this is that, like the the function pointer, you get its directly the function pointer of the titted function, so there's no. None of these. You know to the invoke transition. Offense.

G

I mean we also.

O

P

G

J

Use new because.

N

You enter you come back in the managed code, just fine, so.

O

There's a star now there's transition, but the transition is in line in that method and the reason there. It seems like a lot.

P

O

The pod and the reason wider that kind of makes it difficult to make that same method call above from other.

O

You know the entry point you know we we had that entry point. This attribute existed in dotnet native as internal thing and for the Garcia original proposal. We didn't have it in there every month, because yeah, it's a.

O

We don't have like this, like alt compiler that can produce native libraries, for course er today, and he might have one in future, but we gonna have today, but the mono team asked for this to be added because of day a healthy compiler is something able to do that and they do actually plan to use it for iOS and Android is entry.

G

Point the right name for entry point to be like important.

O

It's what we use in Vienna, important.

A

Because you it's optional, if you don't specify, based on the name from the right similar to the oil importer,.

P

Now, if you don't specify it, if then it's a unlabeled form yeah, it's just a jump. Address oh I, see.

G

When you print a call stack, we went here and out on the line.

B

So I see if they know that methods must be marked static, but what is preventing it for working for striped instance, method.

G

Those trucks would have to be yes, I wouldn't have to do. Is the night, because rough considered demanded the.

B

Native code for just passing a struct pointer, that's an s-parameter as long as they know the column convention is. This called are.

G

Political types include PC, tractor pointers or just regular. That's why? Because of this parameter, would not be able to type.

O

You know it's like we can, you know, relax it like. Maybe you can make it first tracked in Suns met outside, but did you know the debate? This is design. Its design is kind of the minimal building block that kind of gets the job done right. It's the same reason like why this cannot defy this is not doing any marshaling right. It's busy. This is the little building book.

O

You know no kind of run time magic on it like if we find that the lack of certain type of anti magic is I think they sell out. We can always like make it work in more cases.

G

Can you can you do ref raft into the signature? Does it.

P

Have to be installed, president would be glitter balls now. Rf end wouldn't be like that mom today, like a faint side um that burns.

O

Like a faint, maybe we can allow it. You know I'm, just just the the in the spirit of the design view wooden elevate, initially yeah, but it still say- and you know this needs to be like level type sound like what.

F

If the callback is giving in.

G

Keywords star that we need to say Internet, star yeah, one you're unsafe, and you just deal with that. Yeah.

H

O

Is Jeezy track thing, so anything that detect isn't played every person.

B

Has to have the implicit pinning right, it's.

O

An int, though there is worth in, isn't everything this pointer to gain the district by edges and.

B

So it has to pay when you cross the chemo battery.

F

Okay turn: do you dip in the object.

G

Oh okay, okay, it's Charlie sure, yes, I'm, just I'm just thinking through any questions, I'm wondering what all the documentation on this is gonna say is.

A

It anybody care whether they're physical parties, because in the other attribute they're also, there are also field and I mean I, don't care, because we can never change them anyway, so they never do anything interesting and though I'm okay with them being fields me either way, it's probably not a big fish.

O

Isn't there a guidance that about what he feels but improperly essentially.

G

O

G

It never have fun feels.

O

A

That's the thing with attributes those because the way attributes are handled is that you can never really have any logic in them, because nobody ever calls to them. So they're, just you know, read off of metadata, usually so I think I attribute it fundamentally doesn't matter, I mean I, think we generally use properties but like as I'm saying the Elektra Butte like a boy would have made the properties just because they we do does everywhere else, but like just looked it up in there feel some I don't care. What area yeah.

N

This was so I literally just exposed it, so I have to change a let's. Just one.

G

More tomorrow, energy is there an actual language feature that would come with this to expose what function does low function for her or review students, and so that's part of it. That's part.

N

But this is so if I think the first line is big. This is a symmetrical for the function point or C sharp function pointer. So this is like this is the other side of that. It's.

O

Kind of the reason why you want to do it together, so we can test it together and you know if they are like any changes required. If this is sharp side, we kind of get it like.

J

And you should see the testing, for the visit is that okay, it's just a mess.

G

Right anything he says: don't have public fields feeling Connie to say we should Oh attributes I've always seen everything gets that again. I've, never seen I, don't defend speech. Apparently DLL import has field, so maybe it's things written in 1999 have fields and things written after that have properties.

H

For money or compare.

G

The truth, one for you, means it's not just and recall, by default doors at OS specific, the one.

J

Especially the default it's gonna be.

P

Yeah, okay, so it's the all-important yeah! It's the.

O

Same thing, if you don't say collector mention India and partly it's the one you cook, one is more likely will work unless you know the common conventions in practice only method on windows. X86. No other system really has the the that's. It.

N

Or I can change the phrasing like because, like I, try to put as much document on here so that people can. But if there's a suggestion of phrasing.

O

Yeah well, the compiler would choose one for it might be before me. It is the system default.

G

Value conventions- I guess the compiler would choose it for you for a ot. But if.

F

This is just used from callback from a on a ot fun time. It's just a big yeah system seems finished.

G

G

But who fails of f1.

N

Not that's the aut compilation site. It's basically under. We know, there's nothing to do from the run time side like if you specify the entry point and the jet does it isn't labeling the function or is it the.

P

O

Point is he just for the alt, it's like it's echo and to what use dealer export in a C++ or okay, so so in if.

N

It's get this values. Never it's not ready that looked at it's not consumed. There's.

G

N

Different attributes.

G

It does kind of go heaven horn, though, with all the line yeah anything it would just be documentation that I was it only matters for you.

G

Or we can call it, you know.

F

G

Export name I get like just being very clear what it is and that you generally don't care about.

A

We should not go in delegates them like how do c-sharp represent function. Pointers at the end.

D

um It's that fun is a pointer like I think it is all type representation for it. Basically, there.

O

Will be type representation for it like the app working on it and yes,.

N

That's a function, pointers.

O

For seizure, that's.

N

Why it's involving that's.

O

Why it's related? It will be different type from the idea. I see.

A

If we take, what against my question, is that when you have a method that takes one I call it look like okay,.

D

A

Was that this is basically like a basically a pointer, you can.

N

Do it as a pointer or you could use function, pointers when it becomes, but it becomes relevant and the function pointers API will have a you, can specify the function at the calling convention at that point and then you could fully type it if you want it to or you can just pass it around as an int. Have you ever seen? Have you ever used function, pointers in C, yeah.

A

My guess, my question is like what is the: what is the il context for that, because we don't have and I'll type function for this. So no.

B

O

And always has been it's one of those features that were available only from from il or from C++, and you can make it simple as bus, you cannot name them, they are kind of these other. The signature tells me: okay, okay,.

G

In order to take apart to take a function, pointer, parameter in short method, it actually looks similar to taking one end as see it's kind of slicing.

E

Yeah, this is going to be that's what some other way yeah.

E

G

Right this place so I like if the entry point thing is only gonna matter in a yeah I think they entry point for.

F

Name, look at mix it.

O

Doesn't even necessary to be you can use it with a jet as long as you know, some build time step will generate kind of the the Shem DLL that has the animation three coins.

O

So it's it's basically like you have to have a little time step that will little basically look at these attributes, but it can. It can work with just fine how.

A

This is different from the oil export attribute.

A

There's no be like Spartacus I'm saying, but, like logically like would literally what that would mean. Is you have a dll that is native eventually I didn't as a yeah.

O

The similar concept India like sport in C, pass pass in its Microsoft specific extension and it actually that it doesn't take a name, but the name is super quiet, I it. So it's like subtly, friends, but conceptually it's that it's another thing. You can specify export names.

N

Okay, I am you can do that like? Yes, the default is just yeah, whatever they made. If.

G

We made it attribute, yeah, well, export done, all name would be using the name. It says right here, another one. It's the straight.

G

Like a thing we could do, or we can.

F

You I think it would have been nice to have you thinking about using fields an attribute.

A

Well, you can always read another iteration. You wanna ruin your life next year in my book ten years, all.

D

F

I also don't expect. This is the one way the other.

A

All right, so there anything else or is that what I'm hearing is phrasing and, and so this is what.

D

I committed- oh my god,.

A

I, just I mean I removed the excellent Docs because they that's that's the thing, a different one. Then they don't want to be here, but that will be it's basically. The name typical shape.

E

Look at all right, let's ban, that's it and then I thought. Okay. This.

N

Is good this is this is a really complex than epi I. Have there are two different API? They.

P

N

Be stopped by the unwittingly by yeah doing short, so the purpose of this is to purple if a low-level API for our CW and CCW management in a winner, tea environment, that's the whole point of this. Okay, that's why I came about a run-time column on rapper and I'm called.

G

Causal rapper and I can expand the acronyms I'm just gonna, not yeah,.

N

Those are that's what they're for right now, the runtime does everything all big din, and so the idea is if we had code generators, which is what is being proposed for some of the win UI work, which is a another thing right, they can co, generate everything and they can handle it, and that would work technically for calm, but for WinRT there's a lifetime relationship. If we need to, we need that coordination between whatever external runtime and the CLR right, and so because of that we do need to have some.

N

We need to provide something and that's what this API is providing that low-level hook, so that we can provide some part of the implementation and some code generator or some third party can provide, let's say 95%, just one little case that we need to be able to handle and so expanding that so that it has all of the the ability to basically satisfy an RC, W or CCW solution was the approach okay. So this is similar to native call about a very low level, building ball right.

N

So that's kind of what it comes to this resulted in two distinct api's. One is the first one right there, it's a runtime helper. It is. We need to allocate a piece of memory that has the lifetime of an associated type and the example of that is a the code.

N

Generator has generates the layouts for their V tables for a type, and they last as long as the type, so, instead of them having to manually, know how long this memory should last providing a API that says: I need memory, it's associated with this type as long as it's typing around.

N

This memory is relevant if this Titan, if this tide goes away, memories, clearly no winter, no longer interesting, and that aligns with the you have created a object that you are going Tessa native well, that object is, is clearly relevant as long as types in the runtime packet and.

G

Vice versa basis associated with the type, so it's like a static field Association and not with instances of the type which, for instance, yeah.

N

It is back to the type itself, okay and this this API yeah this. This content has already existed. It's calling an existing mechanism that already exists to the runtime. It's no I'm.

G

Just making sure that when we say type, we type.

N

Unload we mean well, they do not type instance right and that's exactly why it so does that type goes away. You can. This memory is no longer right, because clearly, nothing is outstanding, that this.

G

Okay, that point I think it didn't make sense to me so far for the type to go away. There must be no. There must be no instances of that people.

N

I, yes, there's no missus I and there's no instances of the assembly like it's the hole for its head. So.

O

N

O

A you know, he doesn't think dynamic assembly we have collected of time. Yes,.

I

D

Addressing right.

O

D

Is the memory that it's using us, okay, saying we taught in this enough I'm? Sorry in this enough yeah.

N

Yes, yeah there was, there was some feedback about using a you nth that doesn't make it seem less compliant. That's just something that I understand is coarser.

I

Maybe that's some of our other alligators.

G

The Vivian and just go ahead and be long and it from a smaller system. Then. Obviously, your lung is out of allocatable range. What Marshall Don allocates wearable, for instance, takes in point her CV.

G

Oh really, oh one of it.

P

G

I mean honestly: does somebody really need to associate what.

P

G

P

I need to call.

G

It multiple times to take like let them call it two to the 32 times, yeah.

O

It kind of in PDR make sense for it guys it out used to all great buffers right. This one is not and for all the painting buffers it's just use, contract.

L

N

Okay, so how this works? Okay, coach, first me yeah, so we can put up. So if you there's an example at the bottom of some usage, okay, I print is the classic type of calm interface print implements it. I unknown vtable the QI and ref release that represents the basically the runtime side of things, the I print vtable via cable. If you scroll down this is the.

N

This all right, which direction this is going to be the RCW side of things where we.

N

You, oh no sorry, this is the CCW. This is what is going to be called in to dispatch to the managed object.

F

Yeah, okay, this means come calling back and yeah.

N

Exactly want to expose some sort of managed object to the comm world here it is dispatched to it and it's going to follow the I unknown kind of.

N

And so this is the build up. This is all stuff that the code generate and third-party code generator would handle. Okay, so definitely not, but at least we don't have to do so. If you keep trying to help.

N

And then so, this is the RCW side, the eye external log. This is kind of the same kind of idea. You lay out your Qi. You lay out your associated key tables for that object. You type everything in the world and then, if the eye external object, constructor takes an in pointer and that's from the native side. Now the marshal pointer struck. That is not what we would advise to do. That is for simplicity of this. Those are optimizations that could be done. These are very slow api's.

N

There are other ways of doing it, but that's the general gist of what would would go on, and this is the classic way of rolling your own CC wrz goes to object. So if you keep scrolling down, this is just building up all of the okay. So now calm rappers is the actual API that we're proposing that was all boilerplate to make it make sense.

N

Okay, this is a non-trivial agent, so the con rappers basically represents a a collection of AP AP eyes that allows you to manage creation of these and participate in some sort of lifetime management. Okay, the and excuse me object. Identity is also very important right right, so that's another promise that the runtime uses of identity, and so in order to do that, if you're, if the user is interested in that, we need to have a bit more robustness, now, obviously just to call out users.

N

Third party generation could accomplish this, but it's far more expensive for them to deal with it. So that was another part of this. The providing of simple object, identity promise as well as participating in this lifetime manner. Those are the two things that were associating.

N

Let's say that we are going to create a calm, callable wrapper, so we have a managed object. We're going to send down they're gonna, give me the managed, object and basically going to say, give me a end pointer that I would pass down. One of those steps is: is there already a CCW associated with this managed object?

N

Now, if there is, we've promised the object at any we'll give me the same one: does you where to call it once if it hasn't, we call back into this implement their implementation of comm wrappers, and that's why this is a protected one and say here's the object. Give me the V tables for this, and, if you scroll, if you right there, you see runtime helpers, allathee type associative memory. Ideally this would only be done once right. They would cache this. There's no reason to do this every time.

N

It's not interesting, because the ABI table for this object of this type is the same. Is this tables firm object, your current type? This would be this would be per so. This would be called for this particular object. How that's implemented would be ideally a type if object comes through when its foo, they have some lookup table they magically doing here, but but the base class that you're proposing.

G

Will would call this virtual method for every unique managed object instance that it has none? Yes and.

N

It's up to it's up to the implementer to do whatever they build up whatever they want. Yeah. This.

J

E

Implementation right.

N

So I'm just kind understand: yeah, absolutely.

E

N

E

Type associated memory do when you call it multiple times: it's like stack out.

G

Like you're, just you're, just chaining this allocation on to on to unload like a linked list of on load opera, but so say with that time. Yes, yes, it's events window, all goodness, but.

N

That's part of the imp like if it's associated with the tight like it should the only allocated ones. How do they know when to release it, and so that's what we didn't want, replicator with the dress again, the actual implementation here is very naive. It's not great. There are a few api's in this that are interesting, the example of associating type. This is the canonical example, the other one. Is you get Ayano nimble?

N

This has to do with the ability that a third part, a external runtime- that's not associated runtime may not necessarily or maybe maybe want to do something, particularly around like time when the GC is occurring right, which means they can't implement I unknown in something. So we need to be able to provide that, and so that's what that's it's just a static on it's a protected static on this comm wrappers that implementers of it they have some.

N

They have something interesting and they say I need the ion own implementation and we just send up three pointers. Use these in your V tables.

N

Again, the pocket, so it's really I guess this is so this is, and so once this entry gets once this this entries, these key tables get created.

N

They get associated with the with a CCW, we allocate some more memory and some native memory and then, if you look up, if you go back up to the API, which I don't have a columnist, it's basically keep going on to the actual API I. Think it's get or creep I'll create object, no, not not create hours. That's the view be tables. If you scroll up it or create comm interface for object.

N

You've passed in the object, that's in some flag and the result is going to be an in point now, whether that's it or the existing end, pointer or whether I had to create or whether we had to create a new one, because there's no associated with it. That's what that lets, get or create, get or associated or I have to compute the tables and do all this other stuff.

G

One round who are confused by the notion that it's object, isn't something for every description says it's a GC handle REO.

N

Chu did I not update that that's alright, okay, I'm ISM, sorry! So at one point it was GC handle and now.

G

N

Was yes, but we've got there's been a lot of it. I've tried to keep those.

G

N

It was it that it needs specifically a box. You see it's.

G

A

I'm sorry confused about what this does. It sounds like you're, like your co. Generator is basically building that representation, but how this can do that.

N

Because this will optionally call if you scroll down the computing.

G

This is the public non-virtual right.

N

That's public, that's public, so I tried so I tried.

D

N

D

Everything: okay.

N

O

Father and it's like this public method, that does first thing it does it kind of looks up in the internal. You know hash tables and if you haven't seen that one yet Perico goes back in Dakota narrator, provided that.

D

One, no no I get it. So this is mistake method. That was, oh, no sorry, there's.

N

D

N

Along this, particularly the the one above that struct above it, if you, this, is no sorry the necessary yeah. This way, this represents a contract to call back into the object that you've created, because there's we have to lay out what we would call a dispatch table. Basically, at this point, ER and how do I get to it,.

N

Not terribly interesting, you can see uses use you. Would you use that part when you, when you built up your CCW, when we just hand back an int pointer? How do you get at the actual object, assistance.

N

That is that object. That's what we that's, what that's the in pointer that gets passed through. So if you scroll down to it the actual implementation to actually thinks it's, the example well right.

N

This is the CCW zone, so I'm basically dis we're dispatching back into the dispatcher and I need to get back. My managed instance.

N

Because the native has called it, I'm going to do I have to hand back a pointer, and that point are like well from this point or how do I get to a the managed object. You.

E

It's a complicated, it's.

N

A very complicated way, and that's just the first time, I think.

G

There's enough state loaded in now that, with like ten minutes, we can get through the thing I.

E

N

E

N

G

N

G

N

E

P

Of one part there's a second part, which is the.

N

O

um You know there are a few questions you know, but we there, we kind of discussed better dead, come vapors ice-class its abstract, but it makes sense to make it abstracts or whether it should as like some you know. Is it dummy implementations of those callbacks that come to nothing.

F

Probably being abstracted making the.

G

Things we need to implement abstract is easiest answer, because we're still struggling with other things, we've added up like this is virtual. If you don't overwrite it, your type doesn't work. Okay,.

N

So there is that's alright great segue.

G

K

N

Api on you that I have it's basically the object, destruction, because there is a point when we need to say detach this object and we didn't momentous. So we can't really attach it. We have no incited and right now that callback is protected. Virtual I've implemented it so that you don't have to do. You'd have to implement it, but it throws not able not implemented exception by default.

N

G

N

Yeah, if nobody, so basically, if nobody ever calls into your CCWs to say dis, that detach and it's not a big deal, but if someone decides to say detach the CCW or detaches RCW I can't detach one. This doesn't automatically call this part of okay.

G

N

Does it mean to return supportive manner? This is this: is a the lifetime of the Associated native side hasn't gone to zero or it hasn't ng seed I want to detach if.

A

You think of this is an optional feature, then time to whatever be the wrong thing to throw, you look basically say not supported, and then it would make it virtual and say somebody can't provide the teacher for this object. If you think anybody has to do it, then just make it abstract.

A

So it kind of depends on what you think the use cases. That's a fair point. It's like similar to how screens were quiet like you can be see, Keable or readable, writable all combinations. They often you just overwrite the things you want to do and usually have a capability.

A

Api is as well where you can ask up phone whether this is supported, so you don't have to call the method in a blow-up, but, like I mean in your case, I don't know whether the agenda expectation is that that's an implied contract anyway, and it really isn't any other way of doing it like. If there's nothing you can do in the elspeth row, then you might as well not ask in just for the. If yeah and.

G

Then the thing that I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around is like traditionally the runtime handles things like a directly for you right and I'm, trying to figure out how much of that infrastructure still exists once this, but.

N

This is only so. This is a complete parallel implement. There is nothing associated with other, but if.

G

N

Were to do this, like I, am responsible for a breath.

G

And release myself: yes,.

A

Well, I'm wondering is like I mean, maybe you don't have enough fantasy but like how many ways are there to do there like it's the only one way of doing it or like? Is there the expectation that you know different memory? Layouts can do I guess it's I mean calm is effectively in a bi spec and so like how many ways do you actually have to implement that it's.

G

A

G

Few, what is like the the easier way is probably to just keep it to you see, have all this not build until the release come close to zero, but maybe you have an object, pool.

K

G

Your release is, oh just add me back to the pool like I. Can imagine that's one of the scenarios that you.

O

The reason why, like one of the top reasons why God doing this is why his mix of different stove you divide e, the the Vinny I interrupt, was designed the summer GC interrupts.

O

P.Net GC is like, if you have cycle right between you know, who that whole thing those two Geneva cooperate, and it it's very hard to do this replicated disco operation like outside the runtime right right. So that's.

P

N

Answer that call is actually done during a G, so.

P

If they were going to.

N

Do this either they have to provide managed native code, or we have to open Pandora's box of saying. Well, you have to write manage code that can run during a GC and so there's that was basically the only choices and so that.

E

Is it nothing and that's and.

N

I wanted to I want to back something we do handle, address and release if they, if our implementation of address Foley's, we do all of what we do that ref captain look, that is true. The destroy concept is I want to seven or what they want. We would normally call on the runtime mouth neuter being like. You have an RC W, you have a CCW, but the other side has been removed. That's what that means sever, this connection. In a non-natural and and again they don't have to use this.

N

They can implement their own qi, but remember if anybody can call into it and it needs to be executed on a GC, it will run or you'll deadlock. This.

A

A

That mechanika buzz so I, don't like I mean to me that guy would have two boys, be the sauce good, a little bit longer and actually stared it and see how these things compose, but I think the general thing.

N

Makes sense to me: okay I want to point out one thing that I, along with the throwing not supported, which it sounds like that's. No, no I should do it abstract or make it silent. I get it. Oh that's great feedback, this one right here. It was another question about this. Get.

J

A grade or ed or complete.

O

N

The rapper is the are see done, and so, if that is perfect, that is not null you've already. Basically, given me, the object instead of me calling cream object so.

G

Normally, when you get an object back or as an RC W, normally you would need to cast it to an interface that is the comet or face you want to call it, and the runtime is still handling all of the UI under the covers for that. We.

N

Are dispatching to those beat tables because we asked for those Z table: that's what's going on there, but that will all work.

G

That's why you don't need to take like a tea here and then do the equivalent of an unsafe at I'm saying yes,.

E

G

Some interpersonal, so I would.

A

Have gotten a girlfriend? The first place, I called you before we're passing in or I already have one phone.

N

This has to do with some constructor calls. I haven't fully gotten every time. It's explained to me. It makes perfect sense, but I can't remember all of this. It's like venue.

O

Sena, it's like you, have both unmanaged thing and you already created through other means the manage thing, and you just want to associate them together in the system. Since the idea, if I pass you in.

A

The wrapper, like you, added to your internal table so next time, I'll ask you, give me back the same back, but even if I get you know, yes,.

N

Because that would be the same. It's the same like just give me the Associated one. It's really should I call the create object or should I just use them, or can you already put the supply one, but down the downside to this API or the downside to this case is it is kind of degenerate in the sense that, if I create, if I have that object, I'm going to return you one that's already associated with that external come object, so you've wasted your allocation, so this is.

N

Doesn't it doesn't happen very often, but in the cases that it does, there is no real good way of solving the alternative. The obvious alternative is get or register the rapper, and so it's non. No so there's another API, so you have get or create a create instance will call the protected another API that says get or register object for comm instance. It doesn't take a nullable object, it just takes an object and it will met that other API will never call create object.

N

That's kind of the alternative to this boy.

E

You just have an associate.

N

But what if there's weren't already one associated with you, would try and fall.

E

Okay, yeah absolutely do that ever you want to know whether it was or not that's her when.

A

We have patterns like that, I mean they can. We could also call it a try, associate or something they would all make kind of something. Okay, but it seems like the more logical way because I mean yeah. It described the error conditions of this and like what happens when it's a bit more.

A

I mean to be honest, I'm not super concerned, because there's another kind of API people call and thank a lot. I would hope. So I can think of literally two people that are going to call the.

L

Tps I would not overthink this.

A

These objects, that's an emotional object and then you release.

N

Them all you've had that's, that's the you want to sever them and so release objects is probably not the best way. Neuter objects. That's. It was an internal term that we use operate.

G

Because it sounds like the consumer in the implementer are going to be different in this way.

N

Yeah not really because the the the code generation side would use that to build the a handshake they.

O

Say this is not an exchange time. This is internal, but.

G

So if yes, the code generator is implementing us, but he was actually calling these public videos that implementation.

N

It generated out there the generated code they have for those are CW's is using this to construct. Those are CW's and interact with the runtime in a.

G

Controlled manner, I guess why? Why is there a distinction looking for spective I mean if the person who implements it is also consumed like why couldn't everything be public for everything be protected? For instance, it sounds like you are trying to draw a distinction between who implements them from consumers, but now not clear about.

N

That it's error cases I don't want to deal with like. Why are you if you call that how yeah I mean? That's, that's fair! Your that's a fair point. It's exposing surfeit, supposing a exposing API is that you should never call this. We will call this on your behalf or you leave me in the runtime. We be the runtime, because.

A

The one thing I am NOT being in it's like how do you hook these guys like if you generate this, for let's say something when you I come home like how is this survived time ever registered in the system? What do you call this being used? Oh.

N

They would be that okay, so this instance would probably be let say, static on some sort of Sifu like concrete implementation right and that version of calm rappers would be coupled with that version of seafood in some way, and so, when you generate when you generated the are CW's or whatever you use that one, it would be private you'll be private to that version. So the generator. Basically. Will you.

A

Know create the corresponding fields. New them up at this will be a place and ownership is completely under yeah. So it's you.

N

Know Levi's point yes, this is all there's. They could call this in very, very weird ways: I was trying to be prescriptive about it. We.

G

Allocate type associated memory: what are the permissions enough on those figures? Right production, T, penny grant this morning ray yeah I, don't think you more reason, I asked is: is there a scenario where someone would want to do that and then put their own thumbs great question, because if.

N

G

To do that, yes, absolutely.

N

I don't in this scenario the idea is to push as much executable code into manage. So I can't imagine, you're right, hey I didn't mess it up.

K

Someone forgets no that's.

N

That's that's fair, but no. That is not a legit entire point of here. Is you as a CCD as a code generator for CCW items have to write zero native code? We will write the minimal amount of native code, for you write everything a managed, so I can imagine that.

G

Some of these pointers actually point back into methods that I've implemented using the native callable attribute yeah. You.

P

O

What do you see in the example I dislike, get to delegate or get function? Oh yeah I get right, so those things would be actually like native code or metals and just taking pointers forever. So we would use a function.

P

G

When it comes online, and so you.

N

Can implement all of this without those features, but you get a bunch back if you.

I

N

Maybe that was a better approach.

N

N

Tried to make them separate because they functionally arson.

A

Yes, so do you have any concerns about the 80s, because I.

G

Like it's seen since the world, but.

E

Elekid, don't have awareness the.

G

Thing is like can target audience for this. This.

E

Isn't normally.

G

Something that we don't spend that much time reviewing the same like what it fulfills a scenario: yeah.

A

I mean that's what I'm saying that to me: the news API to not be used by mainline people so.

O

Lady, do we it's like I, just notice, there's vtable in one place and the other place has to be something with those be same.

H

Names bro discuss.

O

H

I will make this consistent and remove. Did you see.

B

I think the API surface looks fine, but after it's approved, I want to see some existing open source libraries try and use it and, for example, one of the mini DirectX wrappers and see how it actually works for them and maybe I'm a small write up and see what they say. The shortcomings or benefits of it was yeah.

N

So that's that's great feedback. I have so jeremy owns sharp gentles, so that is the external person. We are I've worked very closely with the WinRT people, because they're literally doing this as cs1 routine, which is a similar thing to sharp pen tools, but it's targeted purely the wing.

N

Ui scenarios and Jeremy's mostly been the go-between between those two primarily because he has a tool that he owns, that he writes this and so I have received a lot of feedback from am on this and yes, a plan is I have bribing him with something then, once this is public, or at least in a preview tools and say.

N

B

G

Be great place, I have a scenario for this to back in, like.

N

Yeah I wish you could go back in time, but I guess, like that's I, think that's the point of where we're all getting it. There's like going to be five people it worldwide that are gonna use. This yeah I, like the feedback about I, will change the not implemented. That's that's fair I'll make that abstract. It sounds like that's preferable approach, a fair statement, mmm and also it sounds like the try register is the preferable approach here. Yeah, okay, I will.

A

Do that, and also nothing idiocy of unity specific way, this is all generic for call my solution for any come over yeah.

N

Yes, there's other okay, so one last thing: I guess the implementation of this is actually unrelated to Windows at everything. There's nothing in here, that's using anyway! So right now, this is only targeted at this is only supported on Windows, but there's literally no reason that we can't flip the feature flag.

N

So they can do they could use this. We have had with a message entity he's of one of the Bing people, yeah he's actually he's actually said. This would be really cool, I. Think, there's one or two thumbs up on that this is cross plant. There is nothing stopping us from I, don't I'm, not that's, not a priority right now, but it was designed around how maybe.

G

I, it's more colonists of the series of interfaces in life honey. They know us. There was nothing to hide to do and.

O

They did the thing: that's come I to the always had the marshalling generator, so yeah I was tend to be a specific.

K

Kind of decouples.

A

um Yeah I mean I, don't see anywhere flank overheads interwove guys it's not going to be pretty know what we do and it's fine like when Jamie brings his a crazy crypto API. As this penguin only a it is what it is. I.

G

As a kzassault question, but there is an API here to allocate the memory associate right, is there potential for an API that associates very date night with like, if say, for instance, that we wanted to? But one of the scenarios that comes up pretty commonly is I want a cache of something where the key on the cache is a type but I'm afraid of making my own static class and then using type as a key, because now that Tyga's rooted it can never be unloaded ever.

G

Oh sure, would something like this work around that if you had like an arbitrary cache as opposed in addition to just this, that way, if the type goes away like I'm, not rooting it. Inside of my system, education, global cache, the.

O

Api, for that today is conditionally stable right, yes of the you know, it's not ideal, and but you know that's the API yesterday. Yes,.

P

But I think things never get one move now condition will be table. It doesn't keep things alive right right, but it doesn't ever prove no like.

O

Adventures ever so busy, if you make initial big table, but key is the diaper and the value is your own arbitrary datum that entry doesn't keep that type alive right and funds that I gets, but garbage collected.

P

That then, they will go away. Okay, that part I didn't.

G

Realize I thought the entry was just marked dead and that the space could never be reclaimed so.

O

You know it kind of has, like you know, a sizing policy. So initially the the place gets markers that, but once new things coming, it will get replaced bits like.

G

There is like an auto full of everything like method.

O

Nowadays is a bad thing like oftentimes, you need. You actually burn these things as sketches. You don't necessarily get that kind of loot like as long as the type you really care about hey. You know this is kind of expensive to create. Yes, that is API that we don't have that I would love somebody to pick a button to design you, but you don't think something like this would be.

O

But I don't I'm not sure what this shape of death, maybe I would be those api's. Typically are you know, like eval, you collections right.

H

So right there all right: what is the technique and what are the eternal yesh, and how was that? Sir I was that different from conditionally table, except.

O

Condition leave the table if things alive forever right. What.

P

A table does not yeah about.

G

P

Tensioner, it does yeah.

O

But you know I'm, like imagine, you're like yeah, better. You like expeditions today, if, like Gekko, regular expressions right that thing is some completely dope. You know probably say you know it's like. Let's guess you know last you know a hundred, then you know and.

J

When it's Marty kind of gets brew a night, but.

G

There are, there are lots of scenarios where people just a new upper edge ups and then pass a literal straight in there. That literal string instance is going to be the same every single time, and so we could use referential equality on that string to do.

G

Okay, all right, that's it yeah I didn't mean to strike from this. I just realized. It's a somewhat related problem. The Saviour.