.Net Foundation Design Reviews, 5 Mar 2020

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From YouTube: .NET Design Review: WinForms Review

Description

00:00:00 - Approved: to expose FileDialog.ClientGuid https://github.com/dotnet/winforms/issues/2858#issuecomment-595474869
00:10:01 - Approved: Add support for tasks to ListViewGroup https://github.com/dotnet/winforms/issues/2656#issuecomment-595478125
00:19:13 - Approved: Add support for subtitles in ListViewGroup https://github.com/dotnet/winforms/issues/2655#issuecomment-595479361
00:22:40 - Approved: Add support for footers to ListViewGroup https://github.com/dotnet/winforms/issues/2653#issuecomment-595480175
00:24:31 - Approved: Discussion/proposal: add more LVCOLUMN ComCtl 6.0 features https://github.com/dotnet/winforms/issues/2627#issuecomment-595483352
00:34:12 - Approved: add SelectionStart and SelectionEnd to TrackBar https://github.com/dotnet/winforms/issues/2642#issuecomment-595486672
00:45:45 - Needs Work: Add Bold Property to TreeNode https://github.com/dotnet/winforms/issues/2788#issuecomment-595496212

A

Let's just jump in all right so know we should be live. So how do you want to do this? Well, then, do you want to walk through it or ego, or what's the threat order and.

B

Thank you here would be the best person to talk about the internal things of the guys. So you guys do want to go ahead.

C

Sure put on the spotlight straight away: do you want me to wake you up sharing? um We might start with the last one: the file file, dialog Klein good, my people.

D

Listen, it was wrong.

C

A quick one, that's a relatively new proposal, it's basically to excel file dialog and allow you to read. Amenabar lost.

D

Settings you should have all.

C

The file dialog.

C

They underline API sort of assists the site and by exposing that API, that would allow you to have multiple states. He ceased it in the application just which none of when they open the file dialog.

A

What is this GUI.

C

um I think you just created good and associated with a particular dialogue and when you want to retrieve the same state, you just I'm, not sure oh I,.

A

See what's happening so I guess the idea is that each user of the dialogue has its own gooood I mean a GUI is said. Then windows will take care of removing and storing that thing. On behalf of that single boy.

B

E

C

The underlying win32 yeah functionality- it's not something we creating any wind for massage.

F

There's something.

G

Somebody's sharing that I can see or am I supposed to know, an issue.

F

G

F

G

H

So this lines up with our our general desire to continue to add on to waiting forums, to expose more of the windows API fully.

I

B

A

I have one high level question before we go into more. Do these things, so how do we I mean some of these against? Require us support right like help? What's our baseline and like what happens when you run in the West that is lower, we don't care or like this. All. This is everything we exposed, basically on OSS that we support for dotnet, so we never have to spoil them that the person runs on something lower them. What a particular API a property needs.

H

Most of these I believe are Vista Plus, so I, don't think we have to worry about. Os is not supporting them.

C

Correct we have an account any API which we'll add in Windows age of 10. So far, so all the changes were making and all the proposals in this session they will add in Windows, 7 or Windows Vista time. I see right. That.

A

Makes sense and then I guess I don't have any concerns anybody else otherwise I mean naming seems fine to me as.

J

You intended for this to be normal good, because it's the only normal property on this entire type.

C

We are planning to decorate and more.

C

In the future, in this particular scenario, we I think it's just to see quite a bit model, because it's all otherwise well.

J

C

J

C

Though, not just a knowable institution.

J

C

That was curious.

C

F

You know Levi, this is Raleigh pre-existing.

D

F

Where we added a little body types right.

D

J

F

J

Didn't mean to imply one thing.

F

I just wanted to make sure that, because it kind.

K

J

Outlier that it was the right thing down.

C

I'm, just looking at the 52 dog's.

C

D

I suppose, if you put.

C

A mmt level, zeroes I'll, you know that property becomes either successful.

D

C

So if you associate it with the wrong, you just will have a safe reset as we treated maybe some site so.

A

There's windows not have the corresponding get one; they only have a second one.

A

If they don't have it get one then yeah they don't have their problem right.

D

A

Now I was thinking that a wing 32 it's just a member of some structure or something where basically the non-existing one would basically be all zeros, but if they just have a method, if you call and not call, then it's effectively not able on their side to write it's just done differently.

A

Yeah I think it's reasonable to make that Nullah, but I think it's the most logical way to do that.

A

Nobody has any objection that I was the coolest either. This is for dinner. Well,.

J

I'm looking through I'm looking through the windows, Dobson implementation and it looks like they actually discern liquid into a shrine. So is there a? Is there an API which just assess a persistence key in general? It does take a quiz.

K

Because that would be.

J

K

The thing that would.

J

Be most generic.

C

C

Which takes a string for that particular fitness. Okay,.

J

D

Market first before we do anything else,.

D

All right so yeah, it's like.

C

Well, let's go to the least you, let's.

J

Stop with that.

C

C

Least you poop, the least you itself has been extended and may more feature reached around Easter time frame and yes, and because of that lease you limitation, dotnet framework, left these implementations for fear of breaking early versions. Now, because we're supporting Windows 7 were able to extend the conte guy with the things we missing, so I think is called down. You should be a teacher yeah there you go so that little task which yes.

B

C

The upper right corner- this is what the proposal is.

C

So users would be able to add a task which you can see it. We think you can make it different text as well. It's.

F

Pretty useful yeah.

A

Let us say that looks pretty powerful I wish I had that.

F

No one liked you too much I haven't seen it's around a lot of UI.

C

C

Explorer on the Sun weed conditions, but I haven't seen a recent look.

C

So I think you saw up is basically what the API should look like. The proposal.

C

So we would have to exempt the lessee group to expose the task and then we would have to add that was the ethos.

L

What's the opening.

C

um So group is that, right at the top of the day, you can see the.

D

Head of that group.

C

Is a small elite group so that had information that horizontal line? That's the group- oh I, see you know in the Windows Explorer you can group items say.

B

It, by name by top etcetera.

I

And you would have a divider at.

C

Least, collapsible.

I

So that's nothing I see so.

A

Basically, what the only thing that confuses me here, you have this thing called you know in the constructor, you call it column, and then you say here group link against this. In does that end right, so they're, the same ones.

C

A

Would just make it the same and I mean.

C

C

I suppose see he modeled it after column, click, I suppose when he copied the definition female remained calm to what I would not to do it, which is scrolling. I appreciate.

I

I need never make.

A

A

Okay, that makes sense, and then this is all of the moon in space that I suppose do I yeah.

C

We just said an additional property into existing plus and waiting a new classes for the event handler and the dog sleep in the same space.

A

Yeah, what do you reckon you want to keep going this pattern where you basically declare and delegates, or do you want to move to the event handler of key thing where you don't have to do that? Moving forward? Oh.

C

A

Wouldn't Fox has done that, but at the same time I also don't think it's helping anybody when we keep doing that. It's just the adding one more types of the namespace which I'm not sure, if necessarily helpful I'm.

C

Certainly happy to.

M

A

The event had lofty in Whitby right 2005, since 2005 pretty much across the BC of Olivia creatively, clearly, event handler, we usually use just event: I'd love event, arcs right.

M

In win for my question for the one phone.

B

N

For the fact they can start doing it.

B

K

New teachers, who can do that I.

B

F

B

F

Whole works, you you know it again. It's a predating.

B

Thing right, like.

D

I said noble: it predates generics, so we didn't do that. It's a question.

F

Of whether we actually, we think you know this is how we should do it moving forward or whether we say no.

D

F

We should be consistent with how it was even.

D

F

What I consider.

D

F

Know I kind of feel like we should never my opinion. I would say you know, go ahead and use it. Yeah.

B

A

That's what I'm saying to me that consistent is usually an argument, but like it it's it seems like sprinkling more time in the forms: namespace I, don't think it's helping the technology much and if music and lofty doesn't seem odd. In my opinion, it seems like now.

F

It it doesn't affect the consumer right. The construction.

D

Code looks exactly the same. The only time is when they're like well I need to you.

F

D

To capture that somewhere and use it now, they have to use it American. No, that's that's!.

F

M

I thought it was early to make sure we were being thoughtful about making it so yeah.

F

I agree: I mean it's kind of a policy decision right. It's.

M

Like okay, this is this.

F

Would be how we do this right and so yeah. It couldn't call out right.

M

Right, you didn't feel like just a decision on this little API I think it's a fine decision that great.

C

As a way to move forward to try for it here, that's also creating you. Oh you don't have Lex.

H

How are we doing that in the past I love right now, I, don't recall. Oh.

H

C

H

Be the new way moving forward correct.

C

C

All right so back to the API any concerns.

A

Then, based on what we just said, this is what I have right now. So he said like this: D should match this guy here and if you use event had a little fetus is what it would look like.

C

F

Sorry, the candle scoffs, no, please, okay, I, don't.

N

Believe so I believe the handles Clause is orthogonal. The.

F

That'll get type doesn't really matter, it's just. You know whether it's.

D

F

The you know you can.

D

F

You know with the best fields, with a.

D

Baby with a generic handler can.

F

M

F

M

F

D

Honest ridiculous.

G

About cop serialization and we'll close it that a comma, but they have to rewrite a lot of things, I.

A

Mean in the design Avenue when you wired up well, hopefully not.

F

Awesome I mean.

A

From your point of view, it's just it's just a tired right and like yeah, it should just, but it has angle brackets going on shouldn't matter. Oh no.

F

No parentheses of yeah.

F

Yeah yeah double-check it and and.

A

If so, then yeah, then that can become policy. The one person of the shed is asking is, if is grueling the index or what? What and what actually is that number representing.

C

I'm afraid I can't answer that question a.

A

City is saying like if it's the index against, it should be kind of like imply that somewhere, but yeah.

C

I'll work with Cuba to find out exactly what it is and look it into myself.

D

Let me just add: a comment is googling the best name for the concept.

D

G

A

Maybe this refresh here so we already would prove two things: they're kind of on a on a roll. Now, all.

C

Right, let's go pulses continue in the same spirit least, you.

C

So stop I will see sort of very similar mm-hmm see that new photo I'm.

D

C

The soft part of the header, yeah yeah.

D

C

Basically, allowing to do that.

M

D

F

K

Seems like a no-brainer to me.

F

A

And I don't even know what house it would call it.

A

And I take it that you have not done any other locations yet array.

C

No, we we can't we've walked all right that we here. So we can't take all this wrong time and we cannot take full.

C

We can't we can't go full steam ahead with novel decorations, because we cannot use some of the analyzers.

C

Yeah Hollywood, it will be thick Solan, yeah.

A

All right next, one, okay,.

C

Fullest fullest, pretty much the same if you scroll down to the huge that new footer text and they align the whole text.

F

G

N

Canada sure yeah.

A

Do we know what we would do if it were just come in Windows, 8, I.

C

Suppose we would have to stop cooking somehow.

C

But we have consider.

C

A

We can cross this bridge when it comes to a bread in many ways you can probably get away with ignore right, like these particular instances. For example, instead of footer and the API doesn't support, setting 1 will learn to value. It's not have one.

C

A

Probably not horrible.

L

C

Know we 32 at win32 level these ethers, we probably don't want, don't want to do that and, like you say, we can probably just ignore steady.

C

But we'll still have to do only equals will help it be file with structs to allow that and we may have to do eat this.

C

F

Release for list.

C

C

Time frame, yeah.

F

It has windows, we could update right, yeah, yeah reason: I do that stuff, yeah.

C

Okay, so this would equalize to to be able to set an email width, so the column text, a column I mean itself because of stray bullets. We.

H

Need to make sure that you can access that column, header and resize capability, programmatically or with your mouth keyword, not with a mouse. Only mm-hmm.

C

Well, I think that would be a general.

H

In some places in their controls and I, don't want to go exposing inaccessible API through Windows that we don't already have well.

F

H

D

Have done this with the win32 API as well your app and have the same problem I mean.

H

F

Should double check and kind of make sure it's right, but yeah.

H

And hopefully we can convince windows to fix it if it's not.

F

Totally alright.

C

So this is a meeting with wait, so you can scroll down. Please.

C

To make it fix with so you, a user is unable to change it, so we just mean same space as the previous feature.

C

So you have like a minimum width and fix with properties.

C

If you scroll down these like a one more proposal,.

C

So that's just to make.

C

Not exactly sure what what use case that will address about that existing functionality well,.

F

Let's you have a drop down as opposed to just sort in right, clicking the column header, here's a bill to put some sort of options on it right.

A

It's tea, so you just get the click event invites who you get to proper context, menu order, whether you want to do it right.

D

You can do whatever you want there, as opposed to just like no, it's sorts or just sort.

F

C

F

C

F

C

In the same spirit, as we discussed in.

D

C

Previous previous API, instead of creating you handle applause, we'll just use a handler off here.

A

Although in this case, it seems already, we used right, you don't already there. Oh.

C

We just use well I.

A

Can't find it so massive immediately the declaration, so in that case.

D

Logistics, whereas event times are off this guy.

A

Interesting, so what about this? One of the discussion that he still has.

C

Its western help to specify whether to create a in a enumeration, we can pull the style. The hair.

J

Do these these correspond directly to on to enumerate flags and the windows.

C

To be honest, I don't walk that what how sure, so the reason is is.

J

Because when we're wrapping the windows API, if we're just passing flags into it- and we should probably represent those here- because it's a natural natural mapping, but if we're actually calling properties, windows, API.

C

A

Sorry I'm in the wrong view. Again one of you not you.

C

See the fixed with follow it, they says we set the LBC, f, FN t flag, all the masks and the a little flag on FM t it. That's what would be setting all this. The add life starts. We sent I.

A

Kind of disagree with Levi, because the parliamentary to structs and flags are usually a grab bag of, and the development experience reflects is generally not that great, especially you know in c-sharp, can be be when you have to like wrap your head around how to set and unset a single bit of it sure I think, honestly, that good mood in property, if they all independent choices, seem fine. They were.

J

Units of the rate, all speed of sign, of support for.

A

J

Mean properties already have simple yeah.

A

Yeah, if there's designer.

J

Support on a property's, definitely the natural course.

C

So would have something like Polly Klaas column header in, in which we have a public column, had a style property which has all these three options.

I

I think the designer already renders.

A

Them as individual checkboxes I think it's already like.

F

Yes, sir flies, he knows it already. Does it put them in check for you, I.

A

Guess, that's fear me, you don't read the UI in code, so maybe then that's also fine yeah.

D

A

Mean I, don't know, like my experience of victory, to has been made a good chunk of the flags. You don't want to explore the flags because it becomes this grab bag of stuff right, I, don't know like I. Don't have strong news only the other day, I think the boolean seems fine.

C

Is it bullying for what like.

A

Individual boolean values for fixed birth and the drop down style having them individual booths seems fine to me.

C

Apple lives, I.

A

Think what would tip me over towards the the flags you know would be if you have multiple tribes that need that, because, instead of defining the same properties and with different types, you can just have one and each type that has all of them. But even then it's singly used I honestly think we won't seem more logical community, okay, anybody else in the car that have an opinion or am I just.

O

Bulls are Bulls are good enough for now, especially with only two, but if it's going to be repeated in multiple places that make me a needle same system.

L

Alright, then so.

C

It basically just 83 you properly Swanage or medium width, once more fix with, and one is for split button.

F

Another event yeah.

C

J

Love these animations we're just continually playing on the screen. That's.

A

Awesome right actually.

J

That's not the things before.

A

We, the only API, and then you can look at something I'm, just cool, hey! It's it's.

J

Really useful for understanding like Chris yeah.

F

Yeah I'd recommend animated. Just for any more of these security reviews. Levi would be good. I want.

D

To see like blue screens and stuff, you.

F

Know or compromises that kind of thing yeah, I.

D

D

But you know is, if you understand.

A

The only copy pasting is also for experts and Marlin all right here we go.

A

All right, then, let's hit refresh again and see how far we are. We.

C

Never stop now, let's go through the let's go to that. One.

C

So, let's a slightly different control, all.

L

The animation end.

C

So it's a track bar so that blue theme there's multiple missing, isn't business from win32. We have okay yeah. So he he's a proposal to add to show selection range and way. Selection starts inflation, hands.

D

A

I mean makes sense.

J

And the value other track bar is Assistant moment it's just another birthday, so there's silicon selection and when a toast get.

F

D

J

F

The value of the maximum- those are all just it's. It's.

J

F

Sport and a cloner.

C

I guess one question here: whether the selection start, where selection ads should be presented as to properties on what property, like a selection of range prints, the smart camera that has a selection range.

L

The boobs type material has that.

C

If you scroll down a little bit, these discussion points.

F

It has to be a new selection right path.

C

Because I wan mus calendar is actually date times per.

F

C

F

C

Presented as two properties beat selection start summation of end or have a strike wage and paints make. You feels when it's only really.

F

A

A

Think using main she will probably be weird I think that's.

A

Because you already have maximum any moments, independent things as well he's also gonna have gender selection as.

L

O

There's a comment currently at the bottom of the screen that the negative values are supported in our range type, or rather our index type, doesn't support negative values. No, we can't use system that range. That's a good point. Actually yeah.

A

L

Think the selection of start selection end makes sense.

L

It doesn't tell ya.

C

So heavy too much probably probably makes it consistent, yeah.

L

That says it's an action, start selection and Eve also something that gives ultimately inform. So that's also thankful yeah bring it there's.

O

Only open question or deception points already defaults. If there's no selection, given that all values could be legal, may be the property she knowable, so they're not look, there's no selection and there's a value. If there is one but I don't know if this breaking consistency with existing WinForms sale.

O

Because that one has selection that drives tells you whether the two properties are sensible or just zero, because they were under influence.

A

Yeah I mean before we add a property that allows them to specify what the sentinel is for non selected. I'd rather do not go yeah.

J

Yeah sorry, what what was the behavior if selection, start or selection end was outside of the min/max range of the track bar.

A

Probably the operation exception, moviemakers.

J

So, doesn't that mean that they can't have some low values at all? Pretty.

A

Much because you know you, men and your max can have a negative numbers right, so you can specify any range and I mean you couldn't use. You know in min value and in x value probably safely and then just say you can't use them as min and Max. But.

J

What I'm thinking of is say that you have a track bar which is currently being displayed to the user and does not have any selection capabilities turned on right now the developer wants to say. Okay, let me let me start showing a selection, here's the star, here's the end. Do they have to call these property setters in a very particular order to avoid exceptions.

C

Don't think that should be the case. I think these properties flow into a struct which that sell to in 32, so you sort of set the state I'd be like that's how I would.

J

Bet so you you set the properties and then call a method that says, please update the track program. I'm gonna.

C

Look it up now, cuz.

J

Know normally, and in this this is a more general problem, not just track barbra normally, when you have properties that are dependent on each other's values. We have seen cases in the past where you now have ordering considerations between those properties.

D

Where you now have to stuff the properties in.

J

The right order, or else you get strange, behavior around fun and that's what long before these questions it's.

O

Like if the track bar is defined as being values, ten to a thousand- and you said, selection ends to 900, now selected start zero in his Audion range. And what state are you in.

O

So it's possible: maybe they need to be get only properties and there's a set selection reason things let's starting to get together, so they can at least economically be seven week. I.

A

Mean what does textbox do I think textbox times them is individual, acceptable things right well,.

O

K

Looking at the win32 API for the track bar control, there's TBM set range, Max and min, and one of the parameters is whether or not you want to redraw.

C

Well looks like a weak pulse implementation. Whatever you set a property, it just sends.

G

C

The outline in 32 with the property, with the property value.

C

Although we have some I guess sanity checks to say when you say max, that's assault lesson mean mean value and things like that. Yeah.

A

That's another interesting point, though, on the text box: you don't Silla, you don't set selection started and you said selection start and length that kind of on. What's there follow.

C

That could be could be another option we just set like I wanna start and that's how how long I want my selection bit yeah, because.

A

This one you can set autumn order right because your length can never be what your ballad range is, and it's supposing you said, a minimum and I asked for selection start and it's you know: zero is not a valid minimum value any more than it. Selection will start holding returns. You know something sensible.

C

And this way you don't need to have any is Sentinel values, because if your selection length V zero, you have no selection.

F

C

D

It puts it with at.

F

The end for you right.

C

And your selection stop, like my people, would be where you're I guess fall fees yeah and then you can set it to whatever.

D

And they could try to set it outside.

P

L

The outreach that's.

P

C

P

C

It doesn't look like he spelled out all the properties, but in the animation you see, if there are fewer visual properties like make farm to ant, they'll need to become I, don't whether it's a boolean property or whether it's just something he does programmatically it.

L

Doesn't require yeah.

C

See on the bottom animation yeah he he will be just out yeah.

C

ah Because I don't have a the akatsuki's harness application, it's hard to tell where they requires a special API or where they just are automatically something Oh.

I

Sweetest thing I mean she'll, thump I guess already exists on track bar yeah thumb should be existing.

C

Although switching on and off.

C

Yeah, it actually doesn't look like it's an existing API.

O

C

Would pull the have to have.

O

It all I assume like looking at the way the program is behaving. It seems like that's just a mode that was written to show that you can change it, while dragging the thumb, probably just using me on of the little thumb position. Change doesn't move this like an end. I.

C

Made it yeah, so I asked him to share the harness, but unfortunately didn't I'm. Looking at the current track by API I, don't see any API which allowed to come farm visible or invisible. So there may be another property, just show farm or found visible, not sure which one's better.

A

So maybe ticks I'll, oh my god,.

P

A

Yeah I mean seems reasonable, even a record short and I think that would be reasonable. Also I think some group is also not there.

C

Wait did you change the width huh I. There is yet so looks like we may need to add more properties, like thumb, width and so far, yeah.

A

I mean maybe four separate items for that: yep.

C

Yeah all right! Well, it would be in here I guess not so with just having no.

A

I mean y'all seem very much dependent on each other. Oh.

C

Alright, so the alcohol phase that will have show selection range starting the length and obviously selection start is less than medium. We will throw and the selection length is greater than the available range we throw as well. Is that the correct understanding.

C

So if selections start is lesson meaningful, we throw like Annabelle at operation, I, guess and if the selection length is greater than the available range we throw as well when.

O

You say available deeming based on selection started just based on min to max all.

C

Based on me max, but.

G

What a second ordering.

O

Problem of William, when you're building up the control you have to now set the minimum and maximum before you can set the selection start mid, which is maybe fine. Just in general, we don't like when properties have to be set in particular order. I know that sometimes it's unavoidable.

C

Does it make sense, do you select, you said the selection before you actually know what your range is.

G

Probably not, but the control of supports are supported, initialize and you will do it. You know when you set the controller and there's noise component would be getting it so.

O

Just also a question of, if you already have a selection and then you programmatically change the minimum. A maximum isn't is that gonna throw because now that would invalidate the selection like so just a lot of state. It goes on between these things and I.

O

Don't know what a good answer is.

C

Good, so, okay, so in that case, what should we do? Should we just limit if I said selection mm, although my range is hundred, should I just select up to the maximum and just ignore the rest? Would that be a better user experience.

O

I mean because, if you're, if you're limiting length based on them, the range of maximum to minimum, like if you said, selections, start to maximum and and length to the full range, your that wasn't in your description of what would throw, but it's already nonsense. So so there are a lot of nonsense states here and some something's either we end up capping, effectively or or there's an on refresh it throws. But that feels really bad. So it's probably just cap it so that we don't make 132 angry.

O

Hopefully this offensive against is already a passive trigger. That's.

F

That's what I'm, hoping up and I was kind of asking. Also, you know what is I mean since we're kind of borrowing from that model. What is worth textbox? Who here when does it throw and would that be sensible to the to a user? That's already familiar with these kind of wind force controls it just operated kind of insane.

C

Okay, I'll I'll do some investigation just to better define whether we throw all whether we just ignore them and cap.

O

Understand the code text box that selection link will throw if, based on the presumably already set value of selection start you would exceed Lee writing.

F

O

F

O

F

Kind of stay prone, we're talking about right.

O

It assumes you set them in the order, probably minimum maximum yeah.

F

O

Start then length and and probably doesn't really handle changing, minimum and maximum. After that point and being in a sane state I guess it doesn't have minimum maximum. It has you had text in the box and then you tighten it change the control entirely.

O

But it doesn't is precedent for throwing because of out in one sense in Whipple's,.

C

Now it looks like in the textbook, a text box implementation. We have a method called a just selection start and end, which tries to gracefully set start and end on the selection without throwing like.

F

A tries to adjust it so that the values are within range yeah. What's interesting is.

O

That with a tight because I'm looking at selection late, your text, pops up selection, Li the setter if it's less than zero after of argument out of range, oh, it doesn't throw it's even if it would exceed the link, it trims it to the link. Okay, no money, so.

F

It does try to do a crystal. What's that sounds better.

O

Invalidate the sexy okay.

C

So for selection length we just basically cap it to today available should we throw for selection style if it's outside the lock, the meaning or maximum I.

F

Know that's in that case you know you're in kind of get into a nonsense land, but I mean what what does it mean to leave it like that.

C

Because I guess I'll tell it to be more graceful would be if we detect that we outside we basically tack it on to the closest value. So if we lessen many more, we just said it to minimum. If we greater than maximum just set it to maximum right.

F

Man that case you get administers I'm again, you know design guidelines and all that, in that case, you wind up in a situation where the property.

D

F

Set for something you didn't expect, as you did in a different word, you.

D

Might not get the desired.

G

F

And I mean it depends and it's kind of a trade-off. It's an exception better. In that case, let the user know that they didn't get what they wanted.

O

I mean really save me. A question of this Mac does changing maximum of them also fix up selections certain lengths when you change it afterwards, but it looks like text box. So let's start again throws for negative numbers if you've picked a thing that exceeds text link, that will clamp it to the last value and if you it preserves length and unless it can't and then it will trim it to the right.

O

So we didn't have to deal with the left, because that was defined to be 0. So.

O

So it's text box, Christ best fit.

D

O

Both clamping during a party like really it's what you want it feels like what we want is the property remembers, the value you wanted for the property and then the UI and signals are sent to the UI is the clamp value but I don't know. If we have how well, we can maintain that state.

C

Because what what might happen any designer user sets so say say before the selection started zero right and we have our minimum and maximum default at the designer time. User goes hey my minimum waste and the maximum is hundred when my selection started zero.

C

What why, if we throw at that point, we essentially breaking at this yeah.

F

Then you're getting the users getting yeah cuz, then the user will get a message saying: hey property value was invalid for totally different properties than the one that was actually busted. That's that's a good point. So that's.

C

Where I think clamping start to the nearest legal value, it is probably in order.

B

It's a good point.

O

Because it looks like again for text box, but it returns from the get is, is what it decided in the end, what it? What it does in the set is try to set the internal value to whatever made sense at the time, but I I can't tell by looking here when, if you know text appending what it does to these numbers, etc. So I don't know how much of one property changing affects the others. In these cases,.

C

Okay, how about we slightly turn it them like? In the text box, you have a method called select where you pass a start on the length right. So how about we have a method here, just you know, select and he's a starting length.

O

Right, I guess the only question on that would be. Does that mean you can't set selection through the designer.

C

Yeah, you would be unable to do that right. Oh.

F

That would be weird I think.

A

I

A

Its we still need to get selection.

O

So I guess it's really just the thing to think about I mean it affects the programmer Bella program, math ability, but it doesn't affect the shape so much. So it's just things to thinking things, to keep in mind weird test cases good. Consider.

C

Okay but jail, we want to avoid throwing if it's automatically adjust its through, like so changing all the properties.

C

If we use it, I guess attempts to set a selection start to something which is outside the boundaries explicitly. Then we may want to throw the.

O

Designers understands dependent property orders, not even a little bit. What do they just write them down alphabetically and we get lucky know.

A

Is you did this? Initialization thing does interfaces that the designer said sin says yeah I'm about to set some values, so please wait and blend done and then you really want to do, but.

F

But that's a runtime thing right. That's that make sure that things work at runtime. You know or try to work at runtime, but actually configuring the thing like with the property grid, the designers different Oh still.

O

F

It's still a runtime control there, because.

O

In the in the text box case right, you can set the text property and then, presumably, you can set selection start length, but that just sended alphabetically it would end up zeroing everything out because they did the length before them is taxed. So the effective length is zero. I think so. I'm just wondering how many of that stuff would work if you have to set in this case, minimum and maximum before you can set selection start end because it generates code and I just not know the order of generative.

F

It's typically generate an alphabetical order. It might even be it. You know, because of the coton serialization stuff right, it might even be in like metadata at work I'm, not even joking right. This is so old reflection base that it might be that yeah, but.

G

I couldn't tell you for sure I think I think it is.

F

Sorted alphabetically but I'm not on represent.

G

But I mean doesn't begin and that case take care of those dependencies because it depends.

F

On how to control implements that.

G

N

Can also change properties from the property green man that that's.

F

What I'm, that's what I'm, referring to I'm, referring to you, know getting the control right at run. Time is one thing you know so that so that the initialized component, the code dogs, realization works out, but making sure that you can set these properties in a sensible way and the property grid and like set it up. It's also important a little bit different. You.

G

Know I thought the question was targeted to realization and instantiating the control initialized component right.

O

But I guess my comment is: if the if the property setters are themselves mutating the value of the clamp before they commit the value in the memory, then then the order that the serial, the order that the property grid generates the set statements would affect them value you got at the end. I would assume.

G

That, if I suppose initialize is implemented from the control, then it should I cannot make sure that.

O

No I don't know how I can really start to minimum if we haven't set minimum yet and the code has an imp, but it's gonna do something. Maybe you can ask if I'm not a fully initialized, yet just trust everything and let it let's hope it works in the end. But I don't know nothing about the model. I just was going.

C

To one thanks, but often what happens and that's typical in WinForms land if a handle is created and message is sent to win32 with values if there's no handle created like we just take and set a property without doing anything, yeah.

F

We put in a you know, there's a whole bag of state that we can put it in and yeah so.

C

At the point, when control gets created like a handle gets created, we just fly all this message. You say: hey do that, so that's where you're, like your pre, pre, initialized things like where you have your bunch of property set. We don't affect one. Another, may not I, think one another that way you handled created. Let's do the whole thing so.

O

The property grid can set them in whatever order at once. At the time, the control actually gets. Initialized you'll, lock them in what seems the most sensible order and do the clamping that makes sense for the contents. Yes,.

F

But there's also the issue bits so that that may handles the initial, the initialization of the component for runtime and the initialized component method. There's also the issue of like actually setting those individual properties in the property grid because they are setting properties on control. That's that's running there right and so there then you get into these order, dependent scenarios there as well.

F

We do have ways to fix that right. You can have you could have it snap at design.

D

F

Could have it do it? You know, move the selection start up or do whatever you want. You could throw exceptions at runtime and then check whether you're in design mode, depending whether the controls cited or not, and and do things differently there, but then they are somewhat different experiences.

F

Did that make sense, it.

A

Does I mean I think the designer is largely fine, because the user controls the order. It's long, the error messages that the user gets when they set them in the wrong order. It's also not terrible I like to just have to do the other way. That's.

F

A

Annoying but you can be both good I. Think to me, the the question from Jeremy is more important, because if the program crashes on startup because can't see the the you know, the order is unfortunately in the designer of the code. That would be bad, but that seems to be taken care of so yeah.

F

And then what Igor said I think I. You know these are properties that should not force the controls handle to be created right right. If it's, if it's already created that might be, you know it's something to be concerned, but in this case I, wouldn't you know the handle wouldn't be created that it would be passed when it was created.

F

A

That what the news guys component basically does it just says like defer until you call me before, I actually fall with the information to win32 the most.

F

Part, maybe no, we may it depends on the implementation.

G

F

Yeah it could easily setting a property touching a property that, and we could we can break that right and I in an update. Suddenly now the handle creates earlier than you thought that can happen right for sure, and it stinks when it does like. ah Okay, whoops.

A

Makes sense all right, I think we captured all those I believe.

C

Posting something you give me a sec which I just want Ross to capture.

C

All right and refresh it now, this yeah cool so just want to capture that what we discussed, so we throw we've selection start, is less than zero.

C

I'm sorry, the selection length yeah.

A

Are you able to say, because selection start can be less than becoming less than minimum? Get me less than.

A

C

If this selection length is greater than available, we just clamp it yep and selection stop clapper to either mu no max. If we outside the boundaries yeah.

C

O

I, wouldn't do those last two in the other order, but yeah.

L

All right, so then it's from this guy.

C

Last one yeah all right so I, don't think there's, there's no UI. Unfortunately, here nothing to do Lee shows you have to imagine a tree tree view. Control with tree nodes and proposal is to allow a particular node to be surd set, as both formed a.

C

Tree node has formed a node font property which presumably allows you to control the font on the node. However, it looks like there was an underlying issue in win32 and that goes back. I got 10 years where they introduce a new property, called vault Oh, and that's basically proposal to expose the same ability to send set a tree note to bolt without using the font.

F

The sister just the font properties, the font, is now bold, I.

C

Think it would inside win32 do something with the font and if you scroll down, there's a link to the underlying a thing.

F

This seems kind of out of the model that we have right with font and all of that correct.

C

ah Please scroll down.

C

More yeah so that dev blog that's link that basically explains why they edit their flag.

C

For the bald, you need to recalculate the boundaries of the note and that could lead to some clipping or whatever else, and that's why they edit a new message or in your flag, which sort of forces like doing that. Because when you do it by a faulty it doesn't.

O

If you change the pixel size of the font size or whatever the size means, that would also require a redraw.

F

J

Just has a distinction between a bold member of a font family and taking an existing font and multiplying it yeah. That's.

M

J

Has to do with that distinction and then.

F

J

It's because of things like rendering issues, yes,.

O

I I guess the question is: is this bold only representing this flag scene and and it has no relation to the font property like so? Can this a true and the font says it's not bold, and if you, if you set the honking bulb, does this come back true or ball-like I mean.

J

I would assume this is a fully independent property, because, of course, what currently is very specifically with that one plan right.

O

Well, but I'm, just wondering if, like current Windows 10 under the covers, will set, if you read this property, if it tells you true, if the font was already in bold font and is that what we want and then the setting it change the font? So if people I do are the font style, maintain object or reference integrity like if you read the font off a few different things, are they the same font object and with a break?

O

If you set one note the bolt and didn't set the other like so referential integrity feels like it's at risk. Here, it's not already broken.

F

Yeah yeah I totally agree.

C

Ultimately, we just tell to do something right. We just making a the use of weekly to eight guys slapping less complicated.

O

Right this is right now if I said, I'm too knows this at their launch. Whatever the font property is equal to the same object, can I reliably see that their object that equals the whole time and then what happens if I said one of the notes, the bolt does that break the relationship or not, and then does it matter which one I queried to find out which font state again or.

J

Not I would hope that setting this property wouldn't change the font. What's the.

O

J

To be a completely independent concept and.

O

J

O

Just asking the question because I see a pot potential in relation and if they're completely unrelated, that's amazing and and I like it and then I wonder what happens if I say bold is true and the box is already bold. Is it no give.

J

Me, like 90 seconds and I'll get an answer for you.

F

J

Mean it's a little confusing.

F

Right, obviously, from a musical perspective, it's just kind of one of these unfortunate treeview things that we're just exposing, um but you know that they would be unfindable, but I think that is how it would work. I mean.

O

I feel like HTML had bold and bolder, and maybe a bold font with this bold makes it bolder and maybe.

F

O

C

A

Make it Maki so what.

C

About this little.

A

Experiment going by the way you have 40 seconds left, avi all came of the API everything independent I.

O

Like that is bold, better someone like somewhere into things, somebody suggested that is prefix and I.

F

Kind of do too yeah.

O

Yeah I: can it also matches the flag preview? Is bold yeah you can scroll down a little.

C

More the result.

F

Review items- I bet, that's true view item style, the tv-tv is I bet, that's what others.

O

F

I just know what winform win32 does and that's totally gonna be like tree view, item style.

A

Levi, how is it going so.

J

I I see handles are in use in a lot of places and.

D

F

Where the handles her team.

J

Has to go, um it looks like they're. Changing the weight of a log font object, that's being passed in they're, actually setting a feel on it. That's called weight and changing it from normal to bold, oh really, I, don't know what that means.

F

Yeah, it's interesting. Oh.

C

That might be actually the fault associated with the.

J

Boyd I, don't necessarily know because they made him duplicated the handle like I. Don't really know we need to look. We should look at that. Yes, I would assume.

F

They'd be orthogonal, but it sounds like no. No, maybe not. Who knows yes,.

O

It is bold as a property name and having the property is, is good, but before we add it, we should understand if nothing else for documentation purposes, if they're, orthogonal or interrelated and yeah.

B

O

Font objects are currently in maintaining reference integrity and changing the bulb is going to do that. That may also be worth a note, then, because it will effectively change the font on this node, it will break from being the same font as the rest of them on further updates. Yeah.

F

um One thing to also bring up there's a small minor point that should not affect this API. In my opinion, this does introduce a bug, a small bug in the designer and the designer you'll be able to set this property. You won't be able to set this property right now because of how we've implemented, because sorry.

D

You'll be able to set.

F

In certain places, but not when we bring up like the nodes, editor dialogue in the in the designer.

M

F

Able this property won't appear there, mostly.

D

Because it's that.

F

Dialogue, how it's implemented, how we've done it in the designer is that it's just. This is a very special case that I don't like having at all, but it actually, you know converting basically serializes the data from the dotnet core process and turns it into a dotnet framework, tree node and because the ate there will be an impedance mismatch here and that's because it shows a tree view in that dialogue that lives in Visual Studio and has to run dotnet framework so that, basically, you won't be able to set this in designer.

F

And unless we do some some work on the designer, so I don't think it affects what.

D

F

Or not, I think it's I think it's.

D

C

Programmatically just.

F

Want to call that house as something Oh until.

C

We move visual studio.net.

F

When we moved up visual studio.net 5 and the bold property will appear for dotnet framework projects and shouldn't that's a different book. Ok, that's.

D

It it's just something to be aware. This is one.

F

Of the very few places we've done this, we try to keep everything proxying uh things from the old from the dotnet core side and you're really using the information from there. But in this case, because we have a preview tree view in that, in that dialogue we decided to go just keep the dotnet firmer tree view and hope that nobody suggested adding anything to tree node. You have dashed our hopes.

C

Around it, whether way in dotnet framework or not,.

F

No, unfortunately, no, it is it's. It's literally stuff. It's in your the way that dialogue works is it's kind of property grid in it, and you put an object in there that object. It happens in this case to be a dominant framework tree node. There are waves potentially to work around this Klaus and I were talking about this the other day. But it's it's pieces of work. We haven't done yet it's a so it's it's fine it just. You know this property won't be said well from there, it's so resettable.

F

um You know programmatically, though, because.

C

F

C

The other we considered today, most of them would light, would would be good to have designer support. Well.

F

C

And our design in 3d, one application, will Street one house.

F

Will all work? Fine, fine in this case this is. This is a one case where we actually taken take a dotnet core object and serialize the data across and create dotnet framework objects out of it in list view, and all of those were processing the real objects. They live over. Another dominant core process we're pulling over the property information from there that those will all work. Fine. This.

D

F

Particular API that won't just just want to call it out for you devil's.

O

Advocate question: is there an existing place that we can stop this data that would make it settle like? Is there any nun that if we added this slides, you know that if we had a flag, you know dude the.

F

Way, it's simpler, you would have to add it to the framework to done a firmer okay, yeah, that's nice! The problem and we've got ways to fix it. It's just it's. It's a lower sure.

A

F

A

F

No pressure does.

A

Everybody view of my conclusion just mark the DES API needs work because I would say it's it's depending on this investigation, whether there is a relationship between the two and then, if there isn't, we can just flip it and then that's the end of me. Yeah.

J

That seems reasonable.

C

Like that relation, what we do, I.

O

Mean the question really is: if there is a dependency, then you just need to decide whether it's something that you think that you can reason about in documentation or expect users to understand or if it's so confusing, that it's better to just leave this out of you yeah yeah, okay, so it's just a question. You have to decide. So really we're just saying goes: there's follow-up and a decision to be made, but unless you change the shape, we'll say it: okay, okay,.

C

So uh would we need to have a another eco review, or we can basically make a decision within the team that being WinForms team saying that we can update documentation or we just accept it as is or which is decline it do. We need to have another review I, don't think so.

A

I

A

Seems like more work for you than necessary. Okay,.

C

So we basically like we take these points. We work as a team, yeah it'll, take it or decline it pull. Thank you.

F

And that's: if we do this while another boat, the designer will fix it. Sunday.

C

A

Should be the end of it? Yes, unless somebody found a new issue, while we were reviewing it, no wait.

C

Dialogue, if you wish but I'm happy to give you the half an hour back yeah.

A

Is there something we can do in half an hour because it becomes then it seems, like you better reschedule for some time. I've been here longer than half an hour.

I

H

We have some work to do internal, yes,.

C

Design so the, but if there is a single way of setting buttons, be that a standard button, yes, normal, cancel, maybe or custom buttons where a user can't provide their own custom text or comment links.

G

We should reconsider everything at the whole. I would suggest to not doing this now.

E

C

We the we, have work to do with multi page style. In there we need to sort. It sounds.

A

Good all right, then, you have an.

I

Old dog everybody.

A

And then hope to see at some point again. Yes,.