.Net Foundation Design Reviews, 13 Feb 2018

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From YouTube: .NET Design Reviews GitHub Triage

Description

00:00:00 - Approved: Add time-constant equals and other utility methods to System.Security https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/10749#issuecomment-365354366
00:04:50 - Approved: Helper class for dealing with native shared libraries and function pointers https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/17135#issuecomment-365365224
00:40:44 - Approved: Add API for reading/writing PDB Checksum Debug Directory entry https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/26935#issuecomment-365370670
00:59:53 - Approved: Cleanup after removal of MemoryExtensions As* api. https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/26894#issuecomment-365381215
01:35:56 - Rejected: Add overloads to enumeration APIs that take FindOptions flags https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/25875#issuecomment-365383129
01:42:24 - Approved: Add file enumeration extensibility points https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/25873#issuecomment-365388259

A

Right so that they may hopefully go over, there were many issues we have is any video, unlike looking at the non solitary, just publish it, go to the one first sweater.

A

Expand their own so which one who said this one is the past month. Yes, so.

B

We reviewed it last week and then I'm just bringing it back weeks. Okay, oh.

C

B

Put it bottom, mainly, cuz I was going to send it to Christophe with or with to Carol with didn't we approve this so now it's fixed x, equals of left. In writing. We stuck with the name zero memory, because that seems to be the most apt, so the parameter name is span just we don't want to have that name and then moved the crypto operation fill random to random number generator bill and then I need the parameter data, because that's what good lights get byte same sets.

D

E

We have a filter that takes an array or something I'm not into secure. We have get data. This is like yeah, I know the span, one is I, wasn't sure if we had a overloaded sorry so there.

F

Are there are instance, members that will fill the random data, but the point of this API is that you don't have to actually create an instance of it. You just call the static API purposes already so I'm still he'll. It will be a thread.

B

Safe random number generator.

G

B

It turns out in core all of our random number generators, our thread safe in framework they're. Not what.

H

B

Can call it like it's a static member, therefore, we guarantee thread safety of being called for multiple pets. It's not going to like, oh because it very constant, always it's nice. It's essentially deal yeah sannen core. We currently only have the instance methods, but it turns out that all of the instances that random number generator that create will give you are actually Brett safe due to their implementation, is the problem. The slope.

F

This you can't really rely on implementation, detail in a production application home of you it.

F

E

Will not fill actually do any allocations like that looks like all the basic types are on coin get bytes. You basically have to allocate a byte array pass it down. This should be asset allocation. We just passed the pointer into the.

I

B

So Windows Cappy did not have a static fill you had to allocate a provider and ask them to fill it. Cng does and that's what we use and it open SSL and security that framework or both static fills. So we just essentially you give us a pointer. We pass it to the underlying implementation. Say fill this with garbage at the moment, life so.

E

You're you're not you're, not using public API I'm a distant okay.

J

Eric, can you.

B

Framework do something different, because somebody could intersect.

K

Right so then I don't know.

E

Yeah looks good to me. Yes, I would just update the top comment with this updated. So whenever we're actually kidding sure okay, if we go back and reducing it,.

K

Oh and then today su assume this fantastical, oh yeah. This was just a.

B

Sheer luck so I noticed today we're looking at something in our I stated. At least one of the places like we have where we made span over loads of stuff on the RSA class like to try sign hash, called the input source.

B

L

K

A

This is my father: Patrick left, intellectually.

E

This is Levi yeah. This is the baby. Oh I see.

M

G

Know this is the one where we have the.

E

Only one know was pushing back, I think was Jana.

E

N

Need this for two point: one.

F

O

F

For it for sure it was previously I think.

K

Is one of those seasons we came close in it.

F

So I made I made some changes from the previous review and basically I wanted to run those changes by this committee.

F

P

Can go over them.

F

So actually you know what my eat is you just open up tap side by side and you have at the original.

F

K

Q

On the is just something connected like.

K

A local plug people wrong with it so.

F

That's one change is you'll notice that me in the approve proposal, we have a bunch of try methods, these methods, don't throw they just return true or false, and then they out either a native library or an int pointer or a delegate right. Well, if you can't open the native library, why not just return mole?

F

If you can't get a symbol, why not return a pointer dot zero and why not return multiple like the same, it seems weird to have: try have both an out, parameter and return a boolean when the failure return value is bailed out. It's not like dictionary. Try get value was not liking to try parse. Why isn't the tea on trying a delegate constraint? It is in the neutral okay if it was an oversight because with the constraint.

A

I agree that an old means didn't work.

A

G

Of the reasons.

A

We said, maybe we should make a try. It is more about the you know. Do you and there's the thinking recursive and I kinda disagree. It's the you know you want to communicate that air legacy the unexpected behavior or like you would have. If you try and ask so we eat something to strive. You know in other areas of the primary communicate. You know this.

A

This may not work, so you have to be able to prepare the white the else, but in some cases like you look at the EPI, it seems like we're always trying about a date and when, in fact, it can't always be better than like even dictionary next cookie, you kind of know that the key may not be present a somewhat of the switch of understanding so again make the same case. You know the gospel address.

F

All do with what are some other cases in the framework where we have try patterns where.

F

I mentioned in try parsing dictionary target value, neither of those patterns so.

L

Like Florida.

F

Was mostly they? You know, because.

A

They there's so much of the dictionary case where you know they couldn't represent. If, when the design theory, there was no representation for like alibi, it's the base is just 24 tension and then they said ok now we want. No one is close to be doing that for that. There's.

J

A

Casting with the eyes for you to move, it basically said you know it wasn't like something like trying it on a lying array or something like there. Under certain circumstances, you can get it away, not at all certain senses or something like that, and then.

J

A

You don't get the array because it wasn't baked by an array of.

J

Like implicit now, we.

N

Have like implicit understanding like Oh Troy, that's.

F

N

Yeah no I mean like without without like parameter, validation or socially, it should install. That's not true. Might.

B

Try so the try pattern design is it returns false for one specific or one specific category of problem and throws for all other problems. So in the case of no I.

N

B

P

N

You cannot control I mean I'm talking about the functionality right.

P

N

We say like we, you provide choice, so it's not like the other one which is controlled. Try.

B

Only covers the common case of a method yeah.

N

B

That's a very if Christoph was here, he would be very much ranting right now.

F

This was a one afternoon, we were values, and that was.

B

I mean so the windows are the windows function that this will be calling that eventually, is get proc address, which is not an H result. Returning thing, it just returns the point, a null pointer. It didn't find it yeah, not.

E

The returns, no, you can't get less there to find out what the actual problem that's.

B

E

Little library get.

B

Proc address your park. I just says: G le is found and even be okay,.

E

Whatever okay, so is there any cases where this is gonna be law where it doesn't throw when you're low? Now it's gonna return it all, but not through.

F

E

Gonna, be, it seems, like you're gonna, have to convey the. Why.

F

I failed I'm, not changing the Rovers like it. If I guess.

E

My question is: is there any case where you would actually not throw but return? Naugus is what I was going to turn out, for instance, at the deal we were trying to. Why wouldn't that true.

N

Right, this is why we said try it.

A

Wasn't parameter that would control the little like throw error yeah it was similar, so we just said we don't do that so like especially if I don't want to throw us at the time, there's a we should change it to try you want like. If you just say you know, we don't need to parameter because you just returned out and you logically the same thing as the trying right side. Thank you. If now, this is that it like indicated over, like Woodbridge I, think we're trying to open or like opening a load.

A

It makes sense that if ppl can't be followed where the father's film, but talking about it, he doesn't turn out seem sensible, but I mean. The question is then always the case that.

F

We want they're all I couldn't load this like, for example, if you're trying to load its. You know well with the wrong architecture. This will rather than pause and.

B

I would expect if you try loading a text file, it would throw yeah so not.

F

B

Invalid input, not a not a common scenario.

N

Case documentation, the.

E

Interesting thing is that we don't do the same thing. Consistency I'm, looking at the documentation were simply download. It never returns to no always throws if there's any irritation, but load library turns null and.

F

Because it sounds like that conveys this could return role and there are some cases where it will throw it somewhere or turn pulse and we'll just document for different years as well.

A

I don't like this is also light up pattern right where it's.

A

F

And honestly, the the reason, the reason that we were looking at that particular pattern in the first place, is that.

F

A

It's true otherwise, with the new at nine bars. It's not the bad thing to say, sir just kind of.

E

Well, we still want I, guess: Drescher low bridges, open question because do you want to go out, try to load then at that point? Oh yeah, yes, I! Think we'd already agree. Yeah.

A

I think that should be I, think I, don't know why we call it open here, yeah, so scroll, all the way down. I.

A

Remember, CPI, disposable everything, directly, academics.

F

And so the island, it renamed it to load in the new proposal we get different century yeah. The other change is I, have an overloaded load which takes an assembly as a brand alert. The reason being that if you pass the column assembly into that parameter, then we can start taking advantage of things like the assembly little context, the default key element for certain paths, those are behaviors and tll.

E

They see well, people never know when they need to use that when now you should almost opposite.

B

Then why we have the other? Well, it's safe! If you're, if you're passing default, you need it and if you're calling the other one, maybe the I.

F

Don't know if the other one should just literally filter, but it basically comes down to is, if you're, trying to load a DLL. That's well known to the system like on Windows, something in the system, 32 directory. It doesn't really matter what the assembly is, because it's if you're trying to load something that shipped as part of your, maybe an unmanaged dependency that you have, then you should pass in the assembly. So, for example, we need to know because we locate your dependent DLLs in the same directory as the assembly.

F

We need to be able to go back figure out where you were located.

F

B

Is the one that doesn't take an assembly gonna, throw if you give default sorry legacy whatever the zero value? Is it could if you wanted to I just because his legacy has the like using the current caller context, etc. So, if we make that, if we've say give me an assembly, if you want legacy or tell me which path that didn't involve the assembly and then we're good to go, which might mean that happens, whatever anything that would need the assembly would need to. It said: okay.

F

That's that's good, so yeah we would. We would need to do an extra parameter elevation if.

E

You don't pass the assembly we're going to just take the current executing assembly. The current executing assembly is pretty reliable.

I

F

We're just basically going to not take any color or just going to do based on a route yeah. If you again, if you don't have some assembly, then we do it either. I believe the logic is check the exe first, because there's only one piace for the process and then fall back to global outs unless you go over it through a search house.

F

Alternatively, if you pass the assembly, then start I wasn't.

A

Going to say that the first one followed the color to say you know, did it yeah the ing point for the app which is both yeah? It.

Q

Sounds wrong precedents would be wrong there. That's the entry point for what entry point which, when you say, entry point with what API isn't.

F

There something simply.

Q

F

Mean context: well, there's just simply get at your points of it snow, but I, don't know which a.

I

Q

Simply not assembly not where did become I've, been spending some time recently running into issues where, like looking at libraries bringing over to core and then seeing that they they did the wrong thing to try to locate the application. So you have to be very intentional: get module file, name and all is bad, because it's gonna give you the wrong it'll point at the host, and so so we need to be very intentional about the the way you show the path yeah. Can we make a note.

A

To call that particular, is it a place? What we just said, I think, is.

A

E

Is a reason to have to why not one what this is also another default parameter efficiently.

F

How does that work without parameters is a required parameters, the off parameter and washable problems? Yes, oh this.

E

Yeah, this is not this.

F

Is going to have an if we turn it back into tribal? Also, this means that DLL and or search paths can no longer be an optional parameter. If you didn't specify your sample, you absolutely well, you can.

B

You could make it say if they're, both null throw, would like give me one of the other buddy limits. So much runtime failure.

F

Okay, it seems strange, though, that if you just called the API you're only the required parameters, now it wasn't exceptional yeah.

B

It's actually a very good point.

F

B

Yeah I think it I think it's yeah find it indicate that you have to get one of them to.

F

The up so another change is a handful of renamed I'll handle I. Don't really feel strongly about that. The reason for that is, we might actually expose and lost about happen in the future, and I would like to preserve the property and handle for that. So what.

B

Would you return okay, what would be a some type of director sensei.

F

Usually use for handle for everyone know, so we don't actually have a pattern for this. As far as I can tell the closest thing we've had as iostream, which used to return in pointer it's handled properly, but I know everyone agree, so that was it that I go. We.

Q

Have a we have a couple examples this that maybe not before exact it like.

Q

We tried to eradicate it, okay in court initially, because we thought it was a bad mannered was exposed, say phenols. We could call it base episode.

F

Of why is it? The base address on Windows is I.

B

If we can guarantee, if we shouldn't call it that in case people start.

Q

Yeah and on socket, we have handle and chain.

B

Has this their exercise run chain has a safe handle property, it does not have a cable property. So then.

A

A

Wi-Fi me because I mean it doesn't matter if you expose one before the other, you always add implication polling anyway, so like whether you later.

F

So we're getting to the last two chambers, on the other one, is get delegate, I added a parameter, exact name which controls name a1. This is important for standard calls on x86 because they are decorated in the export table and if you're, just calling it crock address, you have to pass a decorator name. I can't imagine our colors or they'll, probably probably decorate those bunch of things. So we should do it, for this is w a well it's not w ma.

F

It's like the that's like 4 or 8, or whatever, where that number is the size of all the designers on the stack, W and hey. We also checked that it's kind of different than standard decoration and then parallel to the it exactly mimics GL, o and horse assassinated.

F

So why do because get simple address is like I want this. This thing as it existed, might be a feel for molecule. It might be, it might be a global, so.

A

In that case, maybe, should we name the argument. It's just exactly make sure that make the angle that.

F

But forget, delegate, delegate and get simple address are a little bit different here, because good simple address is like what I'm getting back to you. My absolutely a function, whereas get elegant is no. No, the thing that's being exported is impossible function. You have specified the calling type or the other calling convention yeah like.

B

Naming get some black dress, symbol name seems: maybe there cuz, then it then and then again in documentation, saying that this is no mangling will be applied. It will give the exactly because.

F

Again, like what I'm trying to do with something similar to what you would have done, because that's kind of the heart.

A

You just couldn't made no, she and I can say yeah. You still say no, because look at me.

A

Basically, what I'm trying to get is I, possibly here I, should be able to.

B

Possible dll import actually called it. Execs yeah.

Q

Well, they I, so that's the things exact spelling when you are describing it I thought you were talking about exact spelling and we document that is dealing with the WN, a digital, okay. So.

F

Q

Documentation, yeah, there's exact, septa, spelling and then there's preserves. Sig preserves.

F

We know anything else else on the delegate itself, if the delegate hasn't managed function on our attribute. Things like calling convention preserves.

F

H

Will be called it in.

F

If use exact name should be use, exact, spelling or just exact, spelling I believe the default deal for D should be the case and then get symbol. Address I would call it symbol. Name similar, install this for drugs.

E

There's no reason to use both of these in conjunction who uses one or the other. So what.

F

Would I do symbol address, for maybe you have a like global regional of.

B

Course that would be you're really upset with people calling or you really upset, with the Marschallin cost. To get last error is you want to just grab the grab the last error variable and do a marshal not read work.

F

It is possible to export, and maybe that little field contains some identifier and where.

B

We restoring these to the Tri pattern, like I might've,.

F

B

Just I'm just asking because he mode is pre. Writing the proposals up trying to lick.

H

Yeah but I mean that that's for sure.

H

And then they without the native library, yeah there's.

E

Currently, no way to do get some will dress at all. With the current deal of portals incorrect I'm just wondering whether or not we need to add that. Yet, if we don't have a clear reason to this.

I

Seems like it's opening the doors for something.

I

F

I

B

Is the DLL import search? Paths is no, there is people. Remember I.

E

Don't know I would kind of lean towards not even having inside were dressed for this run till we actually have a scenario before just forget. It seems like it said. I'm.

F

Dude risk for now, including so one one thing that you could actually lose it for is, if you wanted to do, if he wants to coach on your own call life patterns inside.

F

And I know that graphics libraries do stuff granted, they don't use a safe I think it might.

A

I'm, the one inside there's a.

A

Like the way to see this API.

A

It's similar, this really is get pocket recently.

H

A

They don't collect samples that are no.

A

K

B

F

All the platforms that we care about support, getting none functions back from I. Looked at the deal sent talking, looks like this because it all it does yeah.

B

Just yeah just making sure that, like, if they've put if they put safety nets around things, and then we have a this fines exported fields on Windows, but not on Linux or Mac. Then it early.

F

If it occurs to me that they intended for people to find more than just addresses, give it a name.

F

So we hey I, mean.

B

What do you want to be different.

F

Make it mandatory and tell people.

A

Hassle like a thief, isn't isn't it so the other thing you talked about is like: if I call the first one you will use the assembly I should point for the same, like basically calling the second one of assembly enter point and some pass the standards plugging the first one with the same paths right there.

A

M

See we do like that and.

F

It makes me nervous, though, that I'm imagining a scenario where a new compact developer calls the trial of API without passing them the assembly, because he's just using like the default shorts and then all of a sudden, like he's getting back, I heard wrong DOL, where Alice, he would say well deal with work just like. Why is this?

F

So you would be saying we should never fall back on his healthy identity. I think it would be surprising if the application were a single Exe that were self-contained with these. It would make sense, given them into a world where everything's being absolutely packages.

F

F

Unless you're looking for.

F

Which kids is still positive self.

B

F

Looking for something.

B

Looking for something global, you can call the first thing. Let's say you want just the safe system, but at that point base amalgam.

A

Would be, you can still get away, just always have to pasta to yourself.

A

Like Islands you're perfect, if you do it, this is really this whole function, I, don't care about! Ok! So then, again the interest.

K

Oh by just having one way of doing it and like not having work, because if you soon as you open, if you as soon as you offer the first one most people, yeah I, will probably always call the.

B

First, one yeah, but the documentation I, would know why I called the second and the first one. If you pass zero, it will throw a zero makes, no sense without a collar context. Give me a color.

F

B

You idiot so okay, so we keep.

F

Only the second over though we make all the parameters manager, yeah and to be exceptional assembly. As like an you, gossip.

B

I guess if you, if you pass no and there if you say that the import search path, spec should be just the system, trust path, then you don't care about the molar contact. So maybe we say that legacy will throw. If collar is null because it turns out, we can't. We cannot match that behavior.

B

B

H

I

B

Get it sorry, delegate the now not delegate the verb.

F

B

And accept the up parameter has to come before the exact spelling.

B

E

That true, that they the option perms always at three last yeah. Yes, the.

F

Sharp language requirement, so you would, you prefer, overloads right. Well, if you want.

A

One she was gonna.

H

Call me episode yeah.

A

In this case, I kind of really want the informant. If you need one for people to call it this one so like it seems that yeah, the way overload is handling yeah the tomatoes et all the false.

F

H

F

There was one more change you.

B

Want to call that exactly now we tamed named symbol name, so it didn't look like name anymore.

F

Okay, so the only other change was moving and that's just a point in time until we, you know until we figure out how to it, it turns out its way to, for example, if we go through the assembly load contracts. Well, the assemble little context has a load method that gives back in a penny that doesn't have enough, so we don't know where they got even wonder from so we can't.

F

We could end up reference. Another thing is: if you call trying to get Teleca and you get that a lot of the delegates that we pass them involves safe handles. When does it ever free or when? Is it ever safe to free, that's a panel if the library could and safe handles destructor calls, we have random stuff like that, so the other one yeah, but he was also saying he was also arguing that basically, every type that you should use.

F

B

He did an email say that if, if arguing about unlivable stop the api from shipping, people stop arguing so now.

F

We can, we could probably figure out a more sane but I, don't think like given over time.

A

First of all, that is clear to be either safe. Was we don't try to make things that are inherently unsafe, safer can't.

F

Go all the way right this. This API is safe as long as like passing us crazy, see.

B

The to expand on you know Levi's point of not being able to unload. If we want to be able to match the DLL import behavior of using the call like pasen and assembly and say we don't do the normal thing. That is a scenario that people probably care about, and that is a thing that there is no no defined unloaded so either unload would throw or or a lower.

F

Gradual system happen as beautiful just like the yellow one for toast, but if you defer it till after being shut down so.

B

It would need it would need more work or we could figure out what it look like.

F

But we can still eat in the future and we need to call them up. Look because yeah I.

A

Think you know.

F

So we can always edit later I think that if we were, if we were to do it properly, I think it would also require changes to assembly little context and I. Don't think that's a rabbit. What we want to go.

P

F

All right, the t-mike everybody. Oh there were some questions. I.

F

Don't think that's something that will affect.

B

Well, wouldn't you expect I'd, let it is this name allowed to be a random identifier. Thing game is a lot of people yeah yeah, so if you did dot dot, slash bin, slash whatever like relative or with with your context of the color, so.

A

Well, probably, it's a test.

R

A

Myself, in the normal scenario, way I'm loaded from the nougat cache that assembly would be having a location somewhere so I know say: don't you know, try to deposit.

J

His name I, don't know dot, backslash native backslash, x86, regular.

A

J

Like you, so the.

B

Other common same.

A

It's same thing: DLL import would do whatever that is, but it's relative to the location of this guy.

B

Depends on what you fast, video imports are fast. That's.

F

Why, a few weeks ago,.

F

L

J

Doing that it's like just saying somebody someday.

B

Yeah but then that's their bucket, not ours, that the number one thing with security bugs is making someone else's problem. Believe the thing is we true, but if you get with the order.

F

We can at least detect if somebody's passing us either ambiguous or combinations of right and return. Appropriate error message maybe even include.

F

Which we've done I was on the SP on.

I

B

I

B

We'll just leave I assuming you're, the one and I think it means that you have the burden of testing this complicated nightmare of stuff.

B

Doesn't really work if you're in a nougat thing, the relative pass work if you're loaded from a new good thing, just.

H

B

Hey you don't want the burden of test, can't convince the vice president's that we need the test division back.

F

Now I'm, just I'm I just want to get the API, and our focus is like at least we have more time. I.

B

Just don't want to be paralyzed yeah, but so that it be things like in testimony to understand if relative past work, if we do slash normalization, if we do like we'll just want to have tests to codify what every acre is, so we don't, we don't get blindsided by cousin hey. Why did this stop working yesterday and we're like.

F

No, it worked yesterday if you either was just introduced wedlock.

N

This can be used in a new tab with the apps.

B

N

I'm, just wondering about to have like some concern putting the event from somewhere that there's not a lot to it from I.

B

Mean for right now, it'll be a neck or only API. So no.

F

In the future, should you have Pablo's library, address free library from an addition.

N

F

N

Not expose good library from there. You cannot call my grateful, but right now, if you have a be out like this.

A

Yes, so we know whatever you know.

B

There's a question: I mean: do DLL imports work in either, maybe doesn't it- and this is just a unloaded- arid unrolled, yellow important.

F

Basically, only low.

A

Those difference.

F

Or the ones from the effect yeah I wouldn't go through those cops.

H

Anyway, so I mean.

F

You want to eat.

A

Alright, so then.

D

Lecture metadata.

B

Just adding the ability to admit that record. Oh.

G

S

We have actually I mean the writers. What came first so Russell uses the Pope don't meet her. There is a PD B's.

B

How cuz it's on.

J

D

J

B

I was like the API starts with.

S

Some reason: debug directory building a good sugar builder, amazing, yeah.

S

B

Do they say if the PE checks I'm just defined to be a particular algorithm or if it's supposed to carry an algorithm identifier when he says.

K

B

Name I said check someone who takes the name at the checks. Okay, I saw the one that just took the immutable array and I. Was it taken me all right? This.

A

Is the right thing last time? Oh, wait. Oh wait. Wait.

B

I woods are used when serializing cryptographic structures, humans tend to use names. This is just like shell.

D

None of this stuff has an official.

F

Specification for details- that's.

I

Support of a PDE yeah.

B

I

B

I agree that that, when you add the checksum and treat it like is a mutable array, the right type there or shouldn't just be array.

S

B

A defensive copy, oh, do do they use most of the API to this whole sort.

S

Of API decision all.

E

Right kind of yeah, I'm, not sure builder I,.

C

J

C

D

H

C

Why Shankly probably doesn't matter? Because you know.

A

I don't know I had we only just a fight since weird, but that's probably the best you can do or you just take a ride, arrange it.

C

Might seem kind of diplomas if you have a visor, but you wait. Don't have a bite it right and shitty, because it's a coffee, there's.

A

Nothing to hash it's a mutable array is gonna, have the same problem.

B

Yeah I mean no matter what, if you have anything already you're making a half.

C

F

C

F

F

B

F

G

That already had an.

B

Existing record.

N

Why is they are not using grip on this fancy of because of existing.

Q

N

Q

This needs to needs to go back further. Roslin use this on old versions of desktop.

D

Where we don't want the music slows down well,.

C

M

It is but we're not this, we haven't taken it prosperity, all anything. You want you that.

F

This is a new heart. It's not an existing record.

A

Well, I, don't think it's even in the I think it's only politics right, I, don't think it's in.

K

The you know, legacy.

A

Because I, don't I think that these bridges last, like 25 things going off.

A

But I may be wrong, but ATI was fine. What does.

F

H

F

In a betrayed get such as a pattern I.

J

Believe, that's the existing AP and I ate with it just as check and.

M

Q

There they're doing this to.

D

Protect protect.

F

Well, I: it looks like from this issue that a truism can continue entirely. You know, I'm just trying to figure out with this matches, they're resisting veterans, there's nothing on the above directory or partly.

B

Scott I'm, not seeing it you everything in here that deals with immutable rates sounds cheap, October.

K

B

I got anything in this namespace yeah.

J

B

I guess I'm also, that's a mutable erase erase him to be a new concept.

E

Was definitely difference between flash validated vehicle questions.

J

D

Q

Oh here we go, they return. They've got system reflection, metadata ratio. It feels.

Q

Right fight, other places, I see overloads that take both byte array. An immutable array byte in the same same assembly, yeah I, see a couple instances of that.

Q

Actually, yeah yeah every place every place in this API where they do take. Here's one exception: custom.

G

Q

Value only takes a mutable array but seems to me like for usability. They could easily add another load.

J

B

Whole thing is.

M

B

Mean the answer would be like: okay, yes, they can direct the thing that says like making new a mutable array array and they're like. Why did we want to have an overload the reactor test and just make a call? We do it. I honestly think.

A

B

A

Before we take a dependency on span to just be able to see that's what they value.

K

Here, but this thing's it's.

B

Super low over well I mean there is a difference between an immutable array of byte and every known will expand a fight read-only span as I can't change it. Immutable is, and you also can't change it. It doesn't.

L

They could take an ienumerable.

Q

L

Like yeah, that's going back to the argument.

L

Aside immutable so I fight for me to only buy the race with.

A

Him I go through that most inefficient way to hit a bunch of fights. That's especially when is x6. He locates.

H

Like 10 times, there is an additional, you are just.

F

Off the bottom of the screen, after the the only real feedback I had offices can is the offset invites always guarantee diversion.

F

Like are they referencing data in memory or they referencing I?.

Q

Started the metadata blog to this start of the scroll right.

A

Q

Existing in class, it is so in so one of them is immutable by the way from from.

F

One part of the.

Q

File to another part of the file, so.

F

It's different, so it's for the new file on disk as opposed to a file. That's been loaded into memory. It's.

Q

The this thing is building the layout of the file, so yeah yeah. So it's it's, oh it's the offset, but what they really mean is the distance between two parts of the file like what I.

F

B

F

B

F

B

Jpg file: that's over yeah. If you see the P like.

Q

The peds I think we actually have a limitation, the core CLR or actually it's the other two I remember having discussions around crazy, Fortran compilers.

B

For this, as sort of like the ultimate scale of inline äôt, is it's as big as it needs to be right, so that could easily exceed core gig. You've got other problems when you're a iot thing, 8 seats for gig, but I think.

Q

There's already plenty of places for their using in this.

T

Let's call it 5 sizes, so I would at the end of the songs, all right like.

F

The suit this might all say they are fueled within the.

Q

Okay distances between parts of the file and like those night but yeah yeah I mean you have a good feedback but I think it's probably not the let's.

F

See well, I didn't see anything else on the debug metadata header type, that.

F

The theft that it's called header makes me think that it's actually in the file as a four byte value, which means that their their apartment anyway 32.

B

As we get a portable PD 64 yeah, we.

Q

Steal it for other.

N

For an entry I mean like does it take in any type, I mean it's not restricted to any specific types or any trophies at entry. Yeah.

A

Cause like I think most of the time in the happiest thing that struck so there's always.

D

A

That's what is in other areas, at least because the thing is they don't really have class everything to do with structs and there's some convictions that in mirror class hierarchy by just making structs.

A

So most of their blocks, I believe they.

A

L

Tech they ship this.

J

L

Welcome back to.

A

On the Concorde, not.

T

K

All right here.

T

Right so I don't know if you guys remember, but last week, I brought it up. I basically was using some of our api's in kind of a sink heavy cold and I realized that we don't have enough methods to deal with memory of tea.

T

So I propose that we had one method and then the discussion started and people said well. We are inconsistent in general, so I modified the proposal and it doesn't have specific API. So if you scroll down, it's basically set of guidelines that say this is what you should be doing. If you have times that can be cast to what I call slice types. So at the beginning of this proposal I define slice types as memory of the span of te read on the span of tea and read only memory.

T

So if you have a type that can support conversions from itself from the source type, the slice type, what I propose that we do and it's guideline number one is you provide a method called as whatever it is like slice type is, and you provide all overloads to immediately. Allow you to create like a sub sub slice, because today, for example, we have these exact overloads on string, but not on array. So on array. Actually the page that you are on now starts with a string.

T

You can just say, as we done the span 5 10, but for array you have to first say as span and then slice. So that's first inconsistency, you kind of in a float of coding, and you cannot learn a single pattern to get a slice from from a type you have to do it differently, depending on what is the source type. So the proposal is, do the main method for for conversions will be as whatever the target type is this slice type and it has all over loads.

B

Of source types that you're thinking about here, yes,.

T

T

If I have it here, I I think the most important source types for us are array, string and array segment, I.

F

T

I know that it it may be seen as redundant but I think it's very important that this, like consistency, wherever you have it, you know from a source type to a span type, you can say a span and you have those three overloads I think there's value in it. Despite the fact that maybe for array segment is, you know less important, but it doesn't hurt senior.

B

No for a segment of.

R

It he wouldn't, you were placing the dies in the resume, would still do the math offset.

T

Well, it would honor the constraints of the segment, in addition, would add additional constraint for those to a right, see.

R

Right, that's right, man, so it still it's not like I'm, not sure. If it's really.

B

Redundant, it's doing the math for you.

F

Yeah, you don't want people to feel like they have to.

T

J

It already had range.

J

T

For context for other people, so we are working with the language team on a type called range that will be used in some slicing syntax, like language, slicing, syntax.

T

Unfortunately, I think we are kind of not ready yet with the range and I'll tell you what I worried the most about. I worry about the performance, so slicing an array using you know, I pass in the red and two inch is very lightweight.

T

Doing the same thing with range adds overhead, so I think once we design range, we will have to measure whatever it is and it may be non-trivial because range supports things like being open-ended on one side so like, even if you just want to slice off the front. Well range will still be twins so well. It will be more expensive than the one that you know just takes the as method that takes one int, so I think.

T

Unfortunately, we are not aligned with the schedules for these two things and we will have to get range and then measure.

L

A

Expecting Steven.

A

Is there basically, every single type adds to the overall everything conversion path? So it's like you know, I'm, both tied to support x. You know for eventually with the wrench type.

L

T

Good thing is they overload, so I am a bit more concerned and sympathetic. Some people raise the issue that I'm proposing here in in point number, two that we add conversions both to span and memory I'm, a bit more sympathetic that it adds more api's overloads to me. They have such a low incremental. You know overhead that.

A

I'm, just thinking from the point of view, like you know, it's great having conventions, but they say they're, a new tribe that you want to specify like I mean the more things we ask you to an example. Somebody else.

K

A

Be like how easy is it the clear credential I only add second overload, because I never anything so.

T

One thing that we could consider for like future types: just don't make it like you have to do it.

T

It could be well if you think that you don't care about the overhead of range, just add, basically the one that converts from source type to slice and the one that converts from source rice and range to die. It could be an option, I think for string and array. They are such a core types, and the performance here is in a larger and it's very important. I will just take the hit.

A

T

Correct yeah exactly exactly mm-hmm, it's.

A

Actually, nice, we can say yeah, you just add more overloaded, you, you know, measure in that care.

F

When their methods so.

T

This is today when a additional thing that I think is very annoying. There are some times that, like the source type is already, you know read-only or immutable. It's kind of implied that the result of slicing will be read on your immutable. Therefore, I think the fact that we today ask you to you know: do that read-only and it just makes the lines of code longer I think it's completely redone I.

D

T

Think it adds value now different. Some people had a different opinion in the past I'm. Just saying my opinion is I, don't think it adds value. I would I wish that you know. String method was just a span and it returns read on this file.

A

A

Regardless of whether, like.

T

I, and in addition this this guideline says when you have a read, write type like an I, don't provide as read on this fan.

K

T

It's all it's an implicit conversion later, so, if you passing it to somebody, yes, it will convert to read on this fan if the metal takes read on this fan, but you in you inside your metal, like what you're gonna be protecting yourself from your you know, like yourself from yourself by casting to read on the I, doesn't make a lot of sense. I mean I, can imagine some people who want to do it and they will have an option, but I don't think it's super common.

F

T

I I had it as an option. I like you know, not sure. If we want that, we should discuss so you know I think it was either a yawn or Steve or both kind of commented. We have so many different ways of you know conversions, I kind of don't mind because I think for in general. For me, these methods are the most important ones. They are very usable, they do a generic type parameter inference and they should be that the default way people converge, source types to slice types.

T

In addition, we have constructors and Yun and Steve commented well, should we have them and especially that some of the constructors we have alder, overloads I, think it's not a big deal that we have them, but if we want to remove I would just leave the constructor. It is the longest one. You know takes an array and twins.

F

Because they are you're doing additional charts which could have been avoided. If you were just passing alright, there's nowt now you need to check or offset and busses you mmm could be.

O

But even still have the option to use yeah.

T

Yeah yeah yeah.

O

T

Why I said we should discuss because I kind of I don't know what you know whether there's value in removing those, but these people right now we have too many change. Then we should consider removing you know the shortest. Oh can I have one. Thank you.

O

T

Can I use this napkin? It was not used before great. It doesn't look so biggest use like um what what we lose. If we remove the Constructors on all constructors, yes, then we lose the ability to construct the type.

G

Well, this method just calls the constructor there's possibility. People might wrap these types for some reason for little.

E

Uppers that you actually.

P

Could well what what structures I mean.

N

Like you know, if you have a race today, so it looks like our recommendations, use as like, at whatever eyes, expand as memory to do whatever no reason to compare to the span right so I'm, seeing that it's better than using the constructor.

N

So, and- and this would make like you know- we have just one way to construct this panel, so.

T

Let's talk about the wrap in case I, don't think, there's a problem. We you cannot inherit from these types, so you don't need to call the base constructor and destruction. I. Think. Having said that, we need these constructors Co memory to construct the types you could.

P

Make them is there now.

T

Maybe, though, it's not even clear whether we can do that, what.

F

Type are these the.

G

Extensions on there isn't every six 180 busy just.

F

A no system, my motor, so we're now adding extension methods that are always going to be visible on strike.

K

K

Cause you want people to use.

K

Certain that you already have like five hundred methods to show up and string, what's a few more so that API well.

A

What is he like? Please are nice.

L

If you want to need the constructor, essentially otherwise,.

A

They don't add much unless you have a class hierarchy, you know and chairman in our case, even if you always give you like this, this chart, the only painting the detectors have over construction is that you can. You know, take the same argument, type of the different, no.

T

Then the main advantage for these is that you can infer the type parameter. It's really annoying. When you construct the span, you have to say what the type of the tiers.

T

I'm not sure if you can convert anonymous types to the fans or.

F

Raise alarm stops.

T

And anytime anonymous types I'm, not sure the bracket bracket is their name.

D

F

Long stretch help actually.

A

Meaning there's no such thing as anonymous types in until I read: you know they call them display classes since you're sure, because that's what.

K

What do you mean like they? Don't they don't work.

H

F

Can't you can't, if you have a constructor, you can't provide the correct T part of all this time. But if you have a static, oh.

C

Yes, yes, yes, there's one of the reasons why yeah.

H

Yeah yeah because I don't know it doesn't make your skin's well.

K

I mean I, don't know even.

A

Though this feature is all about minimizing allocations that going on this, the opposite, well, I mean it's yeah,.

F

Do do we see people taking regular arrays of reference types and then just slicing them just to have a single slice and thus having.

A

I, don't I think the overlap of these two kinds of people, the people that have a race at Mohamed's types, I think other people that really like they'd.

F

Ignore ignore not like a person or like when people be satisfied with the right segment. Well,.

A

We're so the thing is the race segment was not a very useable type, I feel like very recently when we actually made them from the Sun connection two phases. You know because before hand you would have just basically the fastest thing around. The problem now is like well, every time you've passed around you walk, sit and tightest.

T

Well now we made it very useful because you can cast it to expand and- and we have a bunch of span ID I said yeah I accepted yeah.

A

It's hard to say that continual feature. Sorry, it's hard to predict like what kind of people I honestly think that, like just based on gut she'll like let me or me at the range type and we add range based, it make certain common types like arrays, it's same as others, whatever those guys return, moving the most commonly used ones. So the decision you're making. What this thing will return, this probably more impactful, then whether people will be commonly slicing their first in the race, because.

K

I, don't think it's.

T

So implicit cars so additional take way to convert this implicit class that we have I, also kind of think that first implicit custard don't provide a lot of kind of learning overhead for developers because they are like non visible. If you don't know you don't care, if you know, then it just works for you, explicit castes are a bit more problematic because they can throw, and you have to know what you're doing, but implicit paths are kind of like not impactful.

T

So I said like if implicit cost makes sense, they should be there so, for example, from era to span, it makes sense, and it you know, should be there.

T

So you can just assign a span variable from an array.

K

Yeah I don't see any father.

A

As I said, like the only concern I had was a number of methods, but I think that's largely unconcerned.

T

Steve any comments, I.

B

Mean my main concern was around consistency, and your proposal provides that I still don't love having 17 ways. The same thing.

T

So what what do people think about the three items? At the end of my guidelines, like which five six and seven, which ones do we do in which ones we don't.

Q

The mingling instructors and.

B

The goal there Christophe is basically to encourage people to use the as methods rather than the Constructors. It.

T

Kind of communicates this is the way to do it. Not you know, oh, you have toast all options in as methods and all options in constructors. Well now you pick which one is better I think if we have long this constructor people will think well. This is just like planning for infrastructure, because somehow they have to support the s methods now Levi brought up the point of you know. Maybe it will affect performance, so I think.

T

Mm-Hmm I mean we have lots of like internal and unsafe api's to create spans without any checks whatsoever, yeah well, but they can be used either. You know in the comparison methods as fun, so to evoke the checks that you mentioned, sure, ok, so the second one sleeping the Oh No, so the sixth one we haven't yet discussed.

T

So basically, the guidelines propose that we don't have as conversion methods both to read, write and read only because yes, then it would be like you know, array has as memory as read-only memory as far as read-only span. It just converts the natural. If you miracle it converts immutable slice. If you immutable, it compares three miracle. Well, sometimes people want to now get to the read-only version, and today they will have to do a cast.

T

So one option we have- and we don't have. This API today is add an API called as read-only to both span and memory of T. It.

B

Seems like the only cases where I need something like this is either when I'm calling a method that takes the read-only thing or what I'm storing into a local. That takes to read only thing and I. Do those cases the implicit cast upon and why would I want to type out the extra pair incorrect.

T

So I exactly I was thinking about this. That's why I kind of thought exactly.

G

What you said and.

T

Second, we can always add it later if we discover that it's a problem, so I would propose that we skip six basic and then the last one is to skip the read-only from these conversion method names, because we're gonna only have one day whenever you go to a type, that's gonna be on the S span. So why add the read-only.

E

Yeah I mean but you're gonna still be returning all.

T

Right, but we so we have it in the flame or framework all the time like we have many api's that you know return. We.

E

Ever need a case probably have to have both a span and as read-only spent, because you some cases you get a span, some cases you gonna be noice back, but we not. So we not.

T

But that's the guideline says we never gonna. Have that we're not gonna, add as you don't span and that we both potentially come out. Yeah I, don't think so.

F

If you're passing it as a parameter, I.

F

Mean we should make sure that again, that's free I.

T

Think it's three enough: it's not free yeah.

G

I mean today we.

T

Have an even bigger problem just to get into the span world, you have to call one method, s pan and then slice. Well, we are now trading one. You know like one small inefficiency for another such that we end up with not too many methods related to the skull space. Unlike string, an array.

E

So the go: if she really wanted to get a read only span of ready, you would call a span. Theater spending call a street only span. That's fair! Well,.

T

It's what Steve was saying is and I agree with him. I, don't think you ever need to like get to Arizona spend over I. Do a lot of cases when you want to call the EPA. Yes,.

E

Well, no, no, but they.

T

Pass it, but there is a conversion, so basically inside your method, you just do it as span you do whatever you want slice it, and then you can just pass it to a method that takes three dogs fan.

T

The only reason to call as read only spend within your method, where you just cast an array, is to kind of protect the array from yourself and I'm like this, you know like jeez I, want to make sure that I don't have bugs in my code and don't you take the array, but that's such a rare case that I I don't think many people will do it.

B

But also you be.

T

B

It that's expression because otherwise, if you just store it into a local, that's typed as read-only.

B

R

On having streams and local.

A

I, don't if you already have a reference to the other like doing so, we want to protect the surface like what are you doing? Are you like really develop amnesia? Forget you array, like you, have it already.

A

T

Also don't write methods, it has been terms in lines of code.

A

E

We have any cases where people would have overloads where they take the span and read only spend both possibilities. I don't know if there would be any mercenaries.

G

So easy that you would speak to them to take the most specific one. So that's fine! Yes,.

E

But you can choose it, I, don't know if there were for some reason you would. You might want to still protect the data when you're passing through see that the cat circle, as really so.

T

There are probably cases, but if we run into this being important, we either as add this as read-only or you just cast.

E

Explicitly I'm a little hesitant to say I liked as spam thing. That's gonna return. We don't I spend just because it feels like I'm, not I, can't really tell what I'm getting back by looking at code always been one of my pit post wooden reasons. You know like why people don't like bar and other things, because you can't quite tell what's going on without knowing exactly API. Is that happen even.

F

If you know yeah.

E

But am I gonna may not be memorizing. What all wonder, which.

G

One is review, string or realize.

T

So the thing is: look how many ApS we have in the framework, like almost all API script. This problem, you have API so have methods, and unless, if somebody uses var, you don't.

G

See what they see if you use the.

E

Same method in, in some cases, it's going to have different return types in various places. That's where the same method, names gonna, have different return type.

A

A

I'm thinking ahead of its an indexer, it takes a range, doesn't anything, so you can't tell the return type either so as soon as I index into a spat. There's no way for us to name this guy, because.

J

It will be bracket and then, whatever wrench that you have, then you.

A

Get back whatever span is appropriate for that time and so, like you, will not be able to tell, but the return they do. That thing is either like in the same way that you have to know the D Dijkstra string returns a char and, on you know, another string. Like that's another case of that, and that's what I'm I don't know. I was not a fan of our when a shark team in Elstad and as it was losing it I realize that I don't care about type names at all. Apparently you're.

E

Typing code, all out you don't care about it. You're.

K

Actually, reading quite a lot, don't care.

R

About more than they care about I care about them like I, have such trouble doing code reviews when I can't determine the type from I, don't know, I mean every time I looked at.

A

Her at school, for example, she was using tides, every birth of his tie. Pins were x and y, so he's a very little is Rex, and why I'm, like I, wouldn't believe before you spend the characters of different people, make the type name in front of it. So like I, don't I, guess I think it's largely a preference but I. Think in this case the problem is, there's really not a preference here, because we will not be able to name all cases like indexes performance.

A

We can't have to accept that as a as outcome and I can't believe it's even that it seemed to done it. To spell, we know only every single time you want to get a special string because well that's just the way.

T

Screen works. Okay, also, I think that I kind of buy the argument about code reviews where, like you literally, have no idea what the type is that you're getting back is here. You know, you're getting a span, it's gonna have an index error and a length and this and that the only thing that you don't know it's potentially whether it's you know read, write or read only but I mean later on in the you know in the methods you see somebody mutating it. Well then you know it's span.

T

Otherwise, it's not it's not that it's gonna affect your code review. That's my point.

F

Either a constant or.

F

E

No I don't have a strong opinion to use I just wanted. That's a whiling hesitation for seven.

K

So it seems like we largely will the thing is it's, except for 600.

T

So, no just six, so we said what I did this one? This one will do but like we will, you know, I will basically talk to I. Think us on the said that he will implement it and I will just tell him like don't lose perfect, like EQ. We should have all ourselves in kind of yes will just provide it for everyone else to well, and we also should just call it to implement their methods. After we have there's methods, we should use them the only other methods we would ever implemented along.

U

As ones no all of.

F

F

T

No I'm saying once we have the add methods our code will be using des Meadows. Oh yeah, yeah.

F

Who is one reader, one public, which is an honest one? Don't we hope people never use.

T

Are you like why.

I

T

Just not have that safe I just kept the unsafe. The constructor in the nares methods is that what you're proposing it's.

F

Just weird that we will introducing API that you're, not using internally and people telling customers not to use it.

T

Well, the the longest constructor will be equivalent to calling the as medical with three months and I.

F

T

F

Something what we don't want, though, is for people to get in the habit of just calling the constructor, because why would you use a constructor when you're trying to make a stand right and then they see what they want? Constructor, they fill everything in and then they're wondering why they're not getting the performance gains that we're promising.

N

So I would say either to keep all constructors we have today or just move on.

F

N

F

I'm, just giving these alone.

T

I'm open, it just feels a bit weird to me to have it type without a constructor, but there's something about you know like about having a constructor being. Is it.

F

Like it's self documenting.

T

F

Right but left because it's where people, what is hell of a quality of people, anointed represents I, mean.

B

We could, if we can get rid of all constructors, including the pointer one and just have a static method for pointer length going into a span. And then you look at the constructors and there are none and you're forced to look somewhere.

R

Else for everything I also.

A

Think I don't know like I mean people are used to do that. You have conversion methods, I mean I. Would I would venture a guess and say: the vast majority of strings will not be confused by the constructor cause. Like I mean whoever calls it constructions very real. You know like, even though we have like what is tea tree, especially visited, but I mean this is kind of a stand will be as well at some point. I could use it a lot if you like it so I, don't know.

N

Don't don't don't think that the communication I mean that somebody doesn't know about as spam from some where they are going to look in the documentation and if I want to find this, how can I compare to from string to spam if.

O

I hope to spend.

N

The competition Machoke means this, and because it's a static on the string not on this I, don't know.

A

But I can select or generally types in the framework by the neck for conversions, like there's, only really two things, the new thing accepts the old thing or the other person, so I would check both so.

T

Like I also think that it's a bit of a bigger problem, what you mentioned for like random thousands of times that we have new framework for the very core types people just learn, because you either don't know about these new types or you use them. So often that, like you, know the initial hit of trying to find how to construct them, yeah you have a hit, and then you learn- and you know, like my.

N

Logical thinking about, like you know, if, if I want to convert from string to to span, I, will go and search for the spanning the eyes like well into end. I will not hit the.

T

String span yeah. Well, interestingly, we don't have an constructor on spend at exchange, so you have to flock anyway like no matter what we do. You have to find the extension better. This.

F

Is something like provide provide the water.

A

Yeah this, like goes back to the olden X.

A

Because it's still about it, so there's a better way of doing it, but there's nothing wrong with this way. I think I. Think, generally speaking, if we use a feature their ruler, the shortcuts there boom, they won't learn. Maybe they use it.

A

It will do all the first two times or wrong, but the best way of doing it, the first few times and then they're going to learn so I think it's much more important that we have consistency between all the types that you can spanish fly yeah and you know once you learn it all there is. It is an ADD method that I can call Wow, there's Richard shape, so those like at that point is basically go.

A

I, think that's generally, okay, especially because this is not a feature where I really think people will be very likely to just closet. Anyway, they will hear about Spain. There will be at least three or four lines of code summer that will show how span works and those you know four lines of whatever everybody will see in the you know. Building on, for whatever would involve all of those exceptions, so it will be pretty much. The first thing everybody would see so I don't think it's also.

P

The looks can have some temples and have some.

F

Temple- and we can also monitor you- know our partners.

K

A

O

F

So these are going into memory or something something or string or a sec. Remember right order, any other collection types, but we need to.

G

Yes system is that.

P

We've looked at other foul stuff.

E

Here we didn't do it or normal review actually had a special slot for this one fire.

A

So I think this was the one yeah that's right. So basically, so we have the end is view enumeration API. So right that basically do the doorway, location, stuff part of the feature was a way to do recursion in a way that it doesn't blow up when you're, not accessed directories, and so the side feature that is to add all those existing.

A

You know enumeration ain't realize that we have to basically just low enumeration recursively about you know blowing up with the exceptions, but there's no name, but those are the ones the examples of usability reasons. And so then the question is what shape be in here, edit this file options enum that basically blacks, enum current one that we have today in FM, because this search search then.

D

A

Only has two members like all and top directory is I think as it's unfortunately non flexpays, so there's nothing. We can do so we're using. That is not an option. That's why there's another one.

A

T

It's also like this one has more options: they are not all just a flag, enum values, correct.

J

Really I thought.

T

It's ah interesting.

T

Be nice attract where you can control the size of a buffer, and this.

A

Is existing as well, but this is for the for the other. Api services basically can rationalize. This is literally just for you know controlling the recursive war.

T

So it says, as proposed in some other PR, the flags would be blah blah blah. So even in the other PR it was just a Nina.

G

G

T

G

Is the structure this.

T

Is the result of this.

J

T

This is interesting because I thought we had a discussion also one concern I have with adding more enums. Is that if we ever want to have like options that cannot be expressed as an enum flags value, then we're gonna be adding yet another type for options. So one of the options in this enum is called use some buffer size, whose large buffer imagine that we want to actually control the size of the buffer.

T

Now we need another struct that has a property that is in int, where you can actually set the size of the buffer and so on, and so on. So like I would like to make sure that we won't be adding more of these options in the future.

N

So you're suggesting to have like a structure instead of you know, but if you need this would end up with two types step. We.

T

Still gonna end up with two, but it's better to than three that's my right. My argument now, having said that, I mean there's a difference in usability like enum. Values are very easy to use versus the moment you have a struct you'll have to worry about, like is the strike, a mutable or immutable if it's immutable, it's kind of like it's very wacky to actually get an instance out of it with all the options that you want.

T

If it's venerable data.

E

That we just add a new type and you're making here properties is going to be just you know, and then I take over to take this inside the screen. Yep all.

A

Right so I think, last time we looked at this, did you convert the file options in to extract directions? This thing's still up to date, or is this basically the other iteration of that that.

V

Was the other it originated, but I guess I only copied into the other one with a full set. So the updated options is, in the other, related to 5/8 731.

A

Oh, you know so this one to close this one. Basically, it's saying this is superseded by the other one.

V

L

V

Problem, so that's the that's! The final set is down there. I didn't.

A

You know on the call, maybe we can close in it. Yeah.

A

K

Is the filing a right not.

V

Up there now, let's down the bottom I, didn't update, the top I can do at least as.

C

Long as we have it finally said it's, oh, you could refer so.

A

But this doesn't include the ovals in the in the general namespace right. This is just a feature.

V

Yeah apparently, I didn't copy I'm. Sorry, it's all that it's, although it's all the things that take all the overloads and directory and directory info that take the existing file options now take the B numeration off there's another one that takes enumeration options instead, I.

A

See okay, so this is a class. Now, yes,.

J

E

Do we ever land on how we initialize one of these things, like, though there was a the result of a whole debate about having the default one or something like that? Well,.

A

There was the bending was the shock that was confusing this one. You could have a default one, but the problem is, you would have to create an every single time, because I have.

H

A

That everybody can use it in Michigan's, I, think I, don't care about locations for those kind of guys, because even if you ignore minutes of directories, no matter how you do rated, you can stash this thing in your privates and like-like-like. Never I locate it again. So.

E

You can struck this with note without setting properties. Does it actually do something sane as well I? Guess we just leave it up. You know I think the idea is that if you knew it out, yes, are the defaults going to be something that's usable as well? Yes, so.

V

The only so recursing sub-directories gonna fall for cursive directories is false: ignore inaccessible as false, that's kind of so like it's all kind of geared to the existing behavior with one minor tweak and that minor tweak is the match. Type is simple: they're, not the das, one, so the surgeon so that we get consistent behavior. If.

U

You use the new overloads across the cross platform, so do we feel good about the.

T

Ignore inaccessible being falls by default, smells like such a pain that people like discover so.

A

Let's talk about this, so I think I think you can probably take enumeration optional, fluid and IO correct, because we want to use it on the existing API. All right.

W

Sure so imagine you're available match to I would have to be there to.

W

T

Same with match type, so much like match casing these options. The default is already not equivalent to the existing machine.

A

Casing what we plan from default right here.

V

Match casing is quite for default, so that Oh.

E

Given the de Petter opted by calling this thing, I think it's probably okay to change some of the false from how we used to have now.

T

There's a second so there's an advantage of like you know many people don't know that IPS like this can throw, and then they have software there's crashes and they have a problem that they need to solve, and their only solution is to change it to false and and move on now that this advantage of changing it to true is that they don't learn it. So it's you know it's. This exception is very visible. It tells you I cannot access and you search online and you find the solution to change the default.

T

Alternative is like it's silent. You just don't see some parts and you're like wonder what the heck imma numerating, the filesystem and I you know like one file is not being returned to me. Why so I mean there are pros and cons, but we feel.

A

That is not English. Only so like there, I would say on most machines. It's not something you lightly care about. Oh really,.

T

So it doesn't affect files, accessibility, I mean you, but always see it.

V

Depends on what you're getting right so that it varies because the you know in the UNIX, if you're, if you're hitting the properties are given back as a bag right in Windows in UNIX, you only get the file name and the I don't know if you can start a file, if you don't have rights to it, I'm not sure what.

K

Would edit I mean.

V

Though us like give you like operation time and things like that for things you don't have access to I, believe, okay, so I just haven't tried that I just wanted to call that out. I think.

A

A

V

So starting is possible. It's like we have a lot of error code and therefore like throwing but I. Don't that may just be for other cases.

K

A

Don't know like Joey speaking the things you don't agree, permissions to or the system is not very likely as file that you want to see. I would say because I mean I, don't like it's probably what most people use it for us, like you know the context of user data, your own stuff that things your you would have to go all of the amazing after that away from so like the people in like that, I've been sorry like well, you know better leave the options like choose same early anyway.

A

I think I do best that you know even that they have to call you Oh hello. There often uses the new feature, and that seems it's okay, that that has different default. It's also different types, it's kind of visible that it may be.

V

The general rule of thumb, I was trying to like come up with or go by. Was that like, if it made behavior consistent more consistent than the old ones, then that was? That was definitely something to do so like making it the the actual matching the consistent and predictable, because that still doesn't well.

A

I mean the question: is I mean the existing behavior, the one that people expect I, think the you know inaccessible for most examples that you know. As crystal said many people don't know that they have a time bomb in their code right now. They just have you so in that sense, I mean seems to me is also like whether not whether it's consistent with the past but is also some people would actually expect and I would say, probably not so. In that sense we should probably- and all we were present.

J

So inaccessible yeah.

A

I, have it false: what about the other ones, attributes to skin you? What we say used to nothing right, yeah.

V

So that's usually something people don't want. Yeah people don't want the system files, but that's that one's hard, because we'd have to come up with some way of initializing. This thing.

A

That's right, sorry.

W

So you can just feel like, so we could actually leave a bit ignore and accessible.

V

My only the only flip part to this is that, like, although I guess so I've been thinking about like the advanced users. That would be really particularly interested in this to begin with, the fact that the behavior would change a little bit they're already kind of looking at the details anyway.

V

So if you know, if you understand how the existing stuff works and then like the new stuff works differently, then that's that's that's a jump to, but I don't.

A

You over those existing, I don't care what the people that use the enumeration future director, because I expect those to do some sort of being anyway, because these times will not be. I don't think you can look at the types of you need to figure out how they're used we're all spending in these an hour and intellisense. So.

C

I think that's okay, because you have to test the replay, then we'll find out it.

K

C

We pick here, we probably can't change either. Really, it's.

K

True, we have to live with the default for a long time, but I mean even even the people that care about the performance. That game is didn't care about this, while or.

V

A

V

Nobody does right, you mean that's leak, so it would make people happy, there's a learning curve, no matter which way you goes I guess that's like it's better to like not abuse people for the sake of consistency, right move, the existing api's.

A

V

You need yeah, I I have expensive write-up on it, but basically simple as star and question mark mean just that: there's no magic. The u.s. first are not starting get something with a period in it.

V

So like, if you ask, for you know food star, you won't get food and food dot.

V

Like you good food on, so there's a lot of wacky rules that are meant to that like match the age of three matching from Dawes.

A

V

That's what people actually expect if you really know how to da stuff works, then you get it, but if you're a particularly good work, if you're a UNIX person to it, like it's very frustrating to like happier, you do stuff cross-platform, it's gonna match different files right now. That's unfortunately,.

A

Surprised me, as it started star, doesn't find everything, but.

W

I thinks you can't admit you have to hold it. You have to go under this one and I think that that's like it won't take long for people to learn it. Yeah I.

V

Think we'll have to book I want to break them out of that habit anyway, the stars, the same thing.

Q

Doesn't like star dot txt, give you give you things that are like that text. File to like it'll trim to the DOS matching will trim the extension to 303 carry so.

V

That's something I changed, so it's just implicit by this. We no longer match 8.3 filenames yeah.

Q

V

That that which is also so like the canonical case there is that they've always used for examples which was meant for the 16-bit compatibility.

V

It's that like, if you, if your 16-bit program, asks for star dot HTM, it's gonna get started out, HTML files as well because of 8.3 filename generation, but that this is one of those things that trips people up like crazy, because they, you know 8x3 stuff, is only turned on by default for the boot drive now and for rent. It's one of those like the time bonds that you're talking about that people will eventually want into. Is that they're generating random file names?

V

And then they actually generate one with them or generate a whole slew file names, and they just happen to generate one that generates an 8.3 that matches and or what the hell? Why did I get this other result back? Oh, it's! This hidden, 8.3 file, name that I don't see.

V

So we we want to put system in the list by default right, just get yeah and hidden flip and flip inaccessible.

A

Iv, okay, balloon: the option is here: just you flogging intruder. We want to change it so that it's false.

V

Herbage is awkward, I, don't know because we don't clears.

A

Berchik I think it's clear that.

V

Technically, you don't always throw it if you overwrite, you get to decide, but that's that's kind of nitpicking.

V

So her so so, we should move enumeration options to the system IO, but that would mean moving match type of magic acing as well.

V

Also, all three of them I'm, sorry I, read that wrong and.

Q

Q

D

Q

Yeah file attributes that system.

A

D

A separate what.

V

Do you think system system is an easy call hidden.

Q

Is a little harder we could call into the shell and find out what the setting is they're out, but no with that, we don't want that call so.

A

What's on UNIX, they don't have any hidden that you it's just convention is. It starts at the dock. It.

V

Starts with the dot, so we consider that hidden now that when you do an enumeration like, if you do a directory, you don't see the hidden stuff so that we could start.

W

Normally, people don't want the hidden files, I mean really.

Q

What's the behavior of dirt, it doesn't open or they have to do huh this dirt honors a shell setting or is it have a shell setting, no I, don't think so. You're.

V

Turned on and I don't see them.

F

Q

Dirt dirt allows plus and minus on a right.

V

Well, it's just it's not plus or minus. It's that fear just looking. So it's /h right, yeah.

Q

V

Whatever else you've aged out sir something.

Q

They I meant, they have add and subtract semantics, not.

V

Not furder for a trip, yes, sir, doesn't change anything. It just shows you it's just like in fill that tells you whether you want to filter them out or not yeah they're filtered out by default. If you want to see, if you want to see hidden stuff, you have to use the day. It's not plus age.

Q

You can you can, but I meant you can do they have their own default. You can add flags to their default or subtract flags from their default. I. Don't think it gives you that sort of flexibility does.

V

Yeah I does have not you're right. Sorry, it's not plus in this case it's just.

Q

But that's because they have to I mean we, we provide the I guess we could provide the same by giving a default and then letting you change that default. It's yeah you.

V

Thames countries.

Q

The default, you know it's the same thing yeah so.

V

Matching matching what you get at the command prompt is problematic spectrum anymore, so yeah.

Q

A

V

Doesn't it doesn't clearly, you did both both in UNIX and cost. You don't see hidden far.

C

Q

Many inversions.

C

Q

We should skip both hidden in system files by default. Okay,.

A

Jeremy well Martha. This needs work because you should still update the proposal for the other overloads. You should still look at and then I think we're.

K

V

A

Then there's a.

A

All right, thanks guys online.