.Net Foundation Design Reviews, 26 Jun 2018

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Description

00:-07:-39 - Approved: Add SpanExtensions.LastIndexOf StringComparison overload https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/30649
00:04:09 - Approved: API for interpretting Span(byte) as struct without copying https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/30613#issuecomment-400400504
00:27:29 - Needs Work: Add Interlocked ops w/ explicit memoryOrder https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/29544#issuecomment-400405014
00:41:43 - Approved: Path Span APIs that write into a specified buffer https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/27418#issuecomment-400409299
00:55:11 - Approved: Need a method similar to S.R.CS.RuntimeHelpers.InitializeArray, but for spans https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/26948#issuecomment-400409742
01:04:29 - Rejected: "ItemRef" - Ref element accessor for types that already have an indexer. https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/25189#issuecomment-400418417
01:24:46 - Needs Work: BoundedConcurrentQueue(T) https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/24365

A

A

B

B

What are those extension with is Luke anybody's home.

B

Maybe I should change.

C

The channel those connections a.

D

Knowing extension see I've member each touches adds when I saw the other ones. I'm I exist. The.

C

D

Are spam value.

B

Makes sense to me any concern to anybody. I, don't know if that's it. We said it's not the right time. Spending too much yeah I, think I mean I. Think the title is well. Yeah it'll go on average much once, but.

C

There's no such thing as bad extensions, yeah.

D

Can we change my mood so what as I can we have AP our school have? Did we are we in a broken after we.

E

Can't bother to anything, that's.

D

Sarah well understand it.

F

Isn't, if is there going.

D

To be a difference like the net standard versions will never reach that was in Dec 7. One way to touch was last night exercise like are we concluded? There's.

E

A living package starting on standard, they cannot be added today, cuz they're in buck system, so it can only be targeting cooler weather in books. I've done that court Oh.

G

Theoretically, UAP.

H

G

E

Was just trying to see if there's any other ones missing and I'm a consistency, some perspective, all right so did.

I

You compare the other I. Did a quick look at the little mix of agnostic.

B

Steven is online.

J

Stevens out two days, it.

B

Seems like it don't.

J

Maybe wait next.

D

Week well, I mean that would just give it a quick lead and see whether there's any problem with it. Otherwise well, so this is having very specific extension that that it's hard to read only memory HR in addition to reading Spanish are criminals that they were in.

K

States of everything.

D

Right now, not really we try to. We try to get people to go towards banned English you're going to get better performance that way. But if we consider that read-only memory of charlie is the like official substring type, then it starts making sense to. But returning like that, that is all mount type and.

B

Like they seem that I, don't listen, anything that I said it's before what I don't like is they may have a massive proliferation of types. That's the thing and like I, think if we go down the path like I would not approve, those I would just say: make it consistent between spam and anyway,.

D

So you can. You can actually accomplish the scenario today, but it's a bit weird, because what you have to do is you have to get the span out of the read-only memory. You call trim on the spam. What do you call trim start or trim end? You look at the length of the scan that was returned by it and then you manually slice arenal in memory that you've had to the same length.

D

So it is possible. It's just like a three-step process.

B

Sure, but what makes this message special.

L

L

Like all of the stringing methods, you've got the memory, you don't know where this band came from. You know, there's.

D

There is benefits of being able to using read-only memory over liitle is down in the sense that you're often able to pull the string back out of the reading memory. So you can use it to interlock with avi. Is the takeaway string offset length as their parameters, whereas, if all you have was found, you're kind of temperamental.

L

D

A big I think the question is: where are the other 78 things.

L

B

L

Expect, and why is it noindex.

B

Of ways in the last index of glass Sandro starts with like what.

M

Makes I was building those cotton.

D

Well, things like index of that you can relatively easily go back from span to memory because the index is going to be the same in both cases but again shrimp. Has this we're in direction.

D

I, don't know if that's a good argument for them just making an argument right.

E

So I agree with you one that we shouldn't just pick and choose. We should be more holistically about they really care about. We don't remember the job interesting and its content.

D

Yeah, if you provide the others, one thing we could do is um we are going to over the next few weeks have a review for the utf-8 VP eyes that are going to what supported us. Yeah, we can say the AP is that we approved there. We can start making utf-16 equivalents of them.

D

If we decide we need to bring on one, we should put it all together. It's.

M

Gonna be a nightmare.

B

Case the body all right same thing, then this one is covered. Thank You Steven has more detail. Some way needs that moment. On the other.

B

That one seems like a fine one.

B

Benja says trimming for hyperbole can trim span and have a persistent across AC. That's true, but I think that's probably true for all the operations that end up well, I guess trim is the only one that modifies it right now right that totally makes it special anyway, all right so.

D

So my immediate reaction here is this looks safe that it's really hard, because even if we do it like check, you have alignment issues.

D

How's, the portability portability County on scale, so.

B

Well, how is this chain hoses safe in principle, I mean it's exactly as I'm saying it as any other operations that we have their way you're, basically in reinterpret cast or whether the secret but I think.

N

It's convenient to be able to do this, no I'm, not saying we shouldn't act. All I'm saying is, you said: you'll save like it isn't loose at all, because you just say it's a bunch of lights. Give me back the key that way. It looks safe because we didn't use an asterisk or the word unsafe. It's a signal. We have good memory marshal in town knows every marshal. All that is on.

D

Spec yeah yeah. So that's what.

J

So what does retake.

B

My college memory margin totally different from this one, but I still don't get it I believe.

D

That returns the actual structure other than the run post, which dropped. Oh this one is ready yeah, which means you don't have a stock which is convenient, I.

B

See Surrey gives a big booty.

C

So I like that.

J

C

Would we call it like this? Why would we just call it mean reference.

N

Should this be logically know a lot of people I guess we can imply you're consuming it right.

C

Or copying it I guess it's the way.

D

So is the issue here that we're just trying to make it less likely to encounter buffer overruns by not requiring like calls into an estate on us.

D

Yeah, that's the unincorporated.

L

Reference from seems like if you yeah, if you want the you, want the speed, you're gonna be unsafe thing and essentially struck back well beyond the end of this struck down the end of this ban.

L

They date a contract violation, impossible.

D

Yeah, do we see anyone using messin around us like if you err, if you're, trying to avoid making a copy of this truck? Are you also going to try avoiding the light Chuck, and at that point, are you just going to fall back to using it reference an unsafe house anyway,.

D

Well, I mean you might be able to recently upfront about the lights right, because, maybe you remember I mean I, think there's a difference between having.

G

10Ks trucks I'm thinking that maybe it.

C

Does maybe actually get better is between ER? We don't leave it for it's too red.

D

Created we don't do it because you're even announced a baby I'm like. Why should we care about cost constraints.

D

I'm trying to figure out if this API in particular leads people who's with a little failure. Just in the sense that, if you have, if you have an arbitrary span, then that means the span presumably was also sliced in an arbitrary fashion, which means that how do you know that? What we're getting back is actually properly aligned.

D

D

That past we only ever in our internal code early, we only.

M

Ever allow narrowing.

D

Operations on the couses and you can go from charta might but not from might determine we disallowed in our internal code. This in an internal code review, is necessarily enlightening operation because you're going for a bike to something bigger in light, which means this would always get rejected and our originals.

B

So I think this more a point of view, not nothing fundamental one with the. If you know and you basically the exact same thing that get reference, those the only thing is you had length back to it logically,.

I

D

But what I'm saying is this: do we have a use case with a savior? Well, it's the same as get reference, but I would like to have a contract for it. No, it's get reference and on safe house together and unsafe house like if we see you going from unsafe house bite to enter, for instance, without doing an alignment trucking out of time, public answer use them together. Why.

N

Would you have to use them all because you have to do you have to go from we'd only spend of bytes? We do a span of T, yeah and.

D

That would fail our internal literally all C's, so I, don't.

M

D

Examples of where can you scroll down like? Are there partner of cases where people muses I mean, and only on just cooked it out? Then no.

C

C

Yeah, that's the other way to make things yeah. Here's the action.

I

What was the method called again.

I

D

The difference to being over here he wouldn't use him, get reference because he's a little bit right. There cuz he's going from Boyd star to spam doctor. He has.

E

It he has a stub right there. Yeah I could help her to doesn't search for a stroke.

B

B

Need to this communion yeah, I.

I

Mean good luck trying to end this I.

I

Mean as convenient as putting rest everywhere, it isn't.

L

Like I wanna have an effective, it is the same thing as just taking a fixed fight started and making a perfect data block star and assigning it to the same point.

C

Yeah I mean with all of this all we do look pretty awesome. What to write three nines themselves right well,.

D

Without this you would just tell people use a thick stick x86 for missile I think it will nowadays, but it's not future proof, that's okay. There might be future processors where it doesn't work, and now you could end up with this ecosystem of TLS that only works on certain architecture. It's even though we're in this to be a man.

D

What's the behavior on arm are used to used to fault nowadays it will actually fix stuff up before you just like can say these names, but hopefully you're not doing like interlocked operations within the struct, because those are always going to scale across all marketers.

C

Yes, what I'm trying to get a signal? What is the hold with a piano and.

L

We really the question was how much of a pit of failures that is. Do you think that anybody would use this than what it already just right, unsafe and use clunker coercion and, and then this is safer than that.

B

Because we do a length changes, the do a length check in like I mean in general, if always want to get people partners and your lion costume like anything, goes right. It's super easy to it up where this disease gonna do some sort of corrosion.

D

Way, it's like yeah.

C

D

This, this is a good example of where we know that the data coming in a safe, because it's already I.

N

Mean in general I would not give these people. You know api's at our own span, but like they're, your memory marshal I mean they're a like.

D

Plenty for you to talk to you and paste from Stack Overflow, without knowing the full consequences of your decisions. So.

N

Matter whether it's the same thing written a copy in his partner like this cohabit or a code, you don't read them, that's why you look more ready on them. Is this? Does this meet our our usage of the verb? Has.

L

Or the ticket does young interpret instruction because the C++ important will be every interpret guest, so putting a word interpret and then somewhere in like where we're going off the rails and doing no thank you. You have left sanity, I mean honestly.

D

No that doesn't say to write. It turns a rough from one thing into another plane. So there is a cross about I.

C

B

As is basically algorithm that we interpret I mean, like I, mean we already have s bytes, which takes a span of Tina baby span of bite, I mean.

C

That's that's effectively.

B

B

M

You to look at other than salami, unfortunately,.

B

Sitting on the think, naming wise make sense, I don't know what would call it going on there.

O

Was a question.

B

Do we have the right constraint on it, I.

L

Can't really do any better than I can what you doing. Buddy suggested that we have a unsafe constraint or.

E

L

E

D

Ass breath, listening, we use elsewhere beyond, says no.

E

So I I am curious about you. Guys both said that you wouldn't let us let people use this.

D

Including you so in the particular case, that's being used here, it's safe because you fully own the buffer that you're reading from it hasn't been spliced or maternal. Look! Okay! You allocated yourself right and they say you know same line of sight essentially. Well, it's also being returned from the UPN bomb, so it's guaranteed to be correct aligned. But you only know that, because it's being returned as a pointer, which you turn back into his family, do we have any good waves of doing alignment checks his part in the implementation?

D

Oh absolutely so they should do in like the ending text and well you'll, once the link check should probably be in there anyway. The alignment chakras and Luigi mobility.

L

Yeah or we put in a memory marshal that has struck the line that it throws, that.

M

D

How will you check that alignment would require some checking? The alignment would require changes to CLR. No reason do it like we didn't make those chunks I, don't know what we should be doing. It's not a part of the reef. You guys do like memory. Marshall vodcast doesn't talk about nightly.

L

He said it's the ultimate portability, so there's my man say we could add a second one, which is.

D

I do recommend the name house ruff just because it follows unsafe. I was wrong. David any instructor.

D

Unsafe Ezra tapes avoid storing returns rft. This is effectively pulling a void star out of a spaniel terminal, F team I.

B

Think, as references probably been and I didn't like instructor, I was thinking. That's being you exactly at structure in these, but yeah I think it.

E

Represents our efforts, do we want to think of it exactly as as we often except for its on we? Don't we always fail instead of a void store, basically just an over a little bit? Well, that's rough right now is on unsafe. I know it's on I know it's on, I'm see will be actually having to me. Yeah, unsafe.

D

And the API is mean the API is a lamentably the same right point star in.

E

Rocky out, yeah I try to avoid thinking about the unsafe type. This, because any memory marshals, not many.

M

Or so is pretty scared too yeah.

E

No yeah I think we can't Elena but unsafe, and this is it's all I'm, remembering Marshall, because it's working on the type standard Marshall workshop, which is no Spanish but.

C

Because they're intelligent, that's it as reference we're supposed to have a password well, is it called Ezra.

H

It's literally called Nazareth barrio, that's how we called it. That's what we call it.

E

And it's just enough time to drop services on today, all right. The only difference between this and the unsafe. One, though, is that this constraint now extinct, Oh, struct, I, don't think I'd say this constrained at all. Is it correct.

D

But I think unsafe tall Ezra will they.

D

Actually, they don't know what it does if you pass it a reference type. Oh.

D

No, it works, it works if you passing reference like because we sometimes reinterpret cast object, references, employer offices.

B

And to me honesty constraints, don't matter in this context, because it's theologically overloads right, so they're going more constrain whenever little girls already.

E

Know if I want to swing to stranger, let's show they care waiting either. That's a difference between the two I.

D

Mean it doesn't make sense to allow to be anything.

B

Especially because of glue of anywhere, and so what.

I

Is that for certificate all right.

B

I, don't say that was my pretty okay.

G

B

Yeah, let's skip networking because.

B

Not that I, don't like it I just think it's I'm sure it makes your code much easier than before. Instead of having normal for the, you know, put everything in and then their expression, and then, let's give the girl to say.

B

But that it's wrong, it's just no seems pretty heavy-handed for what it's supposed to do. The only one has that reaction, all right.

B

All you would read it come on shoot from the hip, opinions, afraid.

J

You guys discuss.

A

This offline, I'd, say yeah. This probably means sufficiently sketching on this already I.

B

Have Martina don't mosquito, listen I literally just saw it for the first time had a knee-jerk reaction to it. That's my mom skin of anybody else.

J

Okay, so why did not I mean that yeah I can just talk to be in alignment? Okay, you're.

B

Gonna blanks, huh what else do we have.

J

We did and then it was some. However I remember for this.

C

One I think is everyone talking about this is Wendy Johnson for and this one I believe a ping that didn't get a response with this place.

J

H

One is Bosnians bucket.

J

And it's said: oh yeah.

M

J

The mania sub name crazy burden.

B

This demo disc need to talk.

D

To them, I did I did actually talk without okay, it should be okay, yeah. It is in allowing you to specify a memory orders and things looking for things like compare exchange for me. Okay, like it might not do exactly what you want, but we can at least if you pass in something week, and we do something stronger, so yeah, then.

C

B

Think these have not studied by the probe argument for some architecture: cities right.

D

There wasn't any discussion on the very last comment that I made, which maybe as an implementation detail, but basically just to say, like there, they were considering a a compiler or check feature or something that requires you to specify a Const as a parameter like an actual literal, as opposed to something. That's that has a variable value. I, don't know the status of that feature. But if that feature were available, we should potentially utilize it for these DVRs right, because it doesn't make sense to have at one time.

L

No I would just say.

D

Like I, don't care what you specified if it weren't a compile-time constant you get the strongest or impossible. Okay.

D

Well, it just makes our logic so much easier. Every time, I just.

L

Mean that the like having the implementation, be the switch statement like I.

L

Have the jet understand what to do with its like, essentially define it as a rehearsin calling itself except the jet knows. Oh now that there's a constant what to light down like as long as legit would do that, then we can find the vent that way. It doesn't matter if you get the runtime switch or you hit the compound in life.

D

Right but that would be put against an implement. I did yeah, but the like. We talked about the API last time and I think we said it was a fine API right.

F

I think so, yeah.

B

So and I said, I have gently no problem of having overloads that are more powerful, I think they're, already long learned, they're less likely to be chosen by people that don't care the only old brand you have is, if you roll it up in the database bit like system threading is a really nice visit. It's not particularly.

J

Or the beat system, pretty intuitive bonds doesn't know.

L

D

The only place that the enum.

L

Ever makes sense is to use it on the interlocked class. Then that would be in time that we make a mess: the public email. Oh sorry,.

A

I thought what we also continuing is moving the memory order ones onto like a different class I thought that was being considered well.

B

A

We said like that was that all the you know I mean the.

J

Difference it's a lot.

B

Of time seems fairly heavy handed because no, you will always see them as overloads, but no they're, far apart from each other, so that makes I think that's when we already have these types of duplicated. Another question.

E

B

E

B

E

Class as when we were trying to a couple of threads, so there's there's some of these things out. The existing I think the only one that we have is immutable interlocked, because.

A

We couldn't put it around as far as embedding Vietnam I thought that we explicitly the framework guidelines say: don't use nested types, yeah regionally, don't do them.

L

Well accepted Christoph's is the guidelines will tell you if it doesn't make sense outside one terrific only will ever belong to one type then make it a thing. Instead of do.

M

We have other examples. Yes,.

C

I

It sucks environment, for example, special.

A

Folder name, oh so, I have to do environment, though special folder, that's true, like in general, like Vanessa's.

G

In system and others.

L

Put something insist another like and recently the he yes I. Let me move it from outside enum type code inside it up tight. Yes,.

C

I mean, but that is usually for things that you that you really have ever have to use right. So.

A

The problem is I: do using system threading, which I think most people don't do and then I type n, then you type one hand m and it starts completing memory order. Is that confusing is this not, then we should leave it well. What else would.

B

You like to use I guess what I'm think men your recent event menu. Recent events, the monotron mutex, because there's the only things that sure compare changes on the reset.

A

Of anyone meet X is pretty common.

B

A

So I think I'm fine with it yeah having it in the namespace like that, I, don't think it's good. My freaking I think in the.

J

Problem of based on esta types is that our undiscoverable there's four to use. That's just annoying.

A

Well, the counter are going to be undiscovered. What he probably only use. It is a parameter to this function. You're, never going to use it yourself, so the discoverability is kind of taken care already by hitting comment. Yes,.

L

So what argument will be the only time you be using this at least I'm projecting is.

G

You would be.

D

L

You would welcome.

D

You would do some.

L

You would do some stuff, you hit comma and then intellisense will tell you like. Oh there's this overload here and you're like you, you click or hit tab or whatever Euler Li do and intellisense writes down before you interlock to that memory ordered I. So another counter argument is.

A

D

Confident we would never use this in Gnome anywhere else will somewhere near be very.

A

Inconvenient so has a counter example of.

D

An atom's just brought up in chat. There is a proposal for monatomic time which is similar to interlocked, but would actually not be in the into our class and that's type when presumably having memory order as the Navy got grammar for yeah I think.

G

Will it make sense how you channeled Christoph effectively and we'll just tell you know, Chris, don't know yeah next hour, your wife? What happened is we're saying well, I can tell what Emma would say if.

D

That helps you, you you, if you make me I, can tell him. I mean this. Is a system of threading namespace, so I don't think it's.

F

G

Not in the default templates, I remember.

G

This Jeremy or the other day this Jeremy hates putting them stuck in the process because.

L

I need for now makes the next set at a two line dip, instead of one line.

L

A

Should not have been comment yeah for similar reasons whenever I add a string, never added to the bottom in a list go to the random.

J

L

If you're excluding the top and you're excluding the bottom, it's not very with them.

D

Whenever someone will do like interlocked orange blocks,.

E

Or anything, and all right before you go on to that is Mary.

I

E

Write a name for the. What would that's what you call it I, don't know, but when we even evaluate doesn't.

D

Name, semantics C++ calls it memory order. Does it yeah if you're, coming from a C++ background? That is much like you're going to be looking for I'm, not sure, that's the language, it would look for a friend aiming it. No, but it's it is. It is if you're looking for these api's, like you're, probably coming from where.

A

Does the words that's saying, like the are more Intel manuals yeah? What is your personal name for them? It's.

D

A

Like Intel doesn't.

M

Have a concept.

D

Of this, outside of our team home.

D

F

Because it's armed, basically okay.

J

So um did also menos.

B

It's called memory, Ottoman guarantees or you just sounded yeah.

F

P

I mean which idea has a page memory ordering which.

M

Means it I think the name makes.

P

Sense: I, don't know about the Ino members so because I read them the first time and I have literally like.

D

And I can't wait to what the.

D

E

And release looks.

D

Like it's been deprecated.

J

J

Yeah cause like memory ordering semantics in the armed documentation.

D

Yeah we we need to look into. Why.

L

Geometric this makes us we skip on critics, we mark those very purview or should look like no.

B

We should which they're basically already, but we need to do around with, like it all up, unfortunately, fun or they father should say too many of them. We should just have one.

I

B

Join a business or yeah.

I

We'll get a holistic view.

G

Oh yeah, so titanium coals in memory.

H

A

We dream at the party guys, because these are ones that we approved and then yarn pushback against. He felt that Jeremy was over optimizing for performance at the expense of usability and right to the see some examples of it written out right, yeah, yeah,.

A

That was my reading of this.

J

So the DC examples getting.

A

J

Yeah, so we should look at examples and decided if they're acceptable.

B

I mean for me, as one of you to make sense. I mean yarn.

I

B

Is a friend of black and whites? Little API is, like you know, either completely Sabre completely unsavory, it super usable or your high performer gently dislikes the slippery slope if you will be never type that does half-assed both things. At the same time,.

C

So once and I would have you that these are not the api's you're very likely to call in.

B

A

B

A

I but the risk misrepresented, Jeremy I think he he believes is very important, because we've added span overloads for a lot of the rest, apartheid paths combined. So if we're it makes blindingly obvious sense, and so it's a consistency thing and, and yet the argument being made here is also one of performance and yarns. Pushback is performance ever realistically, matters are getting ten path or even getting random farming, because you're about to yeah.

L

And you are about to light a fire, but we're down it's something. You potentially you're alone, yeah.

A

Relative path, that's part of manipulation that seems completely consistent, relative path and fault of their control. Dc billion yeah I'm, not sure I, those push back on those two. Maybe it was a usability play and in the yeah and then the question was the first tool that is right like once you can do, others, we've managed witness would eat you, but yeah they're probably not be very part. That I think are they correctly formatted in terms I mean it's the tripe, a pinball taking spam spam ban or and and out charge written at the end.

A

That's the normal pattern right. So we have Natalie say about the usability of of that patent.

B

Oh sure, we do just can't say it in play. Company.

A

That's the best we can I mean like well I.

A

Don't think we have any ideas returned to both of well. The problem of that is the wannabes I forgot.

Q

What the discussion.

A

Was I think we discussed this with.

Q

Kristen and others, so they do the same.

A

Q

Midori and they found out that there is something like that.

A

And like returning stuff.

Q

Versus our parameters.

A

You think of them are logically the same, but they are not physically the same there yeah that doesn't make sense to me because the clerk jenker just returned it as an outlander. Well talk about the details.

B

But that can be looked into.

A

That or like it like.

B

In Midori was even worse because they had like the normal try pattern. Is you have an out of reference time? I mean you say: tryparse, for example, you construct a Russian stuff whatever, and normally we return the bull and we have the relative reference. Tab is the out. Midori inverted that.

A

Because, apparently there, if.

B

A

Reference type is returned, it's better than the reference type in.

B

Our parameter forum, the way the GC is working in the way you have to do the right area. That sounds like it cases they had to write code to work around the limitations. Oh yeah, one I mean they owned. Everything I think I probably would have changed it. Otherwise,.

B

You know so, then the question is in the examples: not how they would write the examples, but having written it out whether anyone would actually do that. So.

P

Get 10 packages the jewelry returns the temp directory from.

B

P

A

B

A

Iam is just the.

B

A

Filename is 10 path, plus.

Q

A

From some better output, they just stopped printing them exactly the way. My music, my words guarantee.

B

Ya, get 10 pound.

A

B

So Jeremy's now.

A

More nuanced and then 10 drink, beginner.

G

Battlezone, it returns just the path of him and not.

J

Yes, they filed under that's round. Get tim. Follow me as the opposite. You want that gives you name that which.

A

There's any 65,000 in the entire machine.

A

Yeah I would agree pit get Tim filed me back that we could probably catch it and return the same string. Every time get Tim pop forget Tim path. Yes, I, don't know if the OFC P I was slower, I, don't know a little thing that is well, but I mean if the. If the complaint is that.

J

Calling it in a loop means that there's decent water, then we can hold the reference and return the same reference or.

L

Better still was 21% people who care about that to do it himself and be so I. Don't know that that one makes makes sense to avoid, but any of the ones that you would sensibly.

A

L

On a profile basis, and they would get back different answers, so it's little composability as well as a consistency and performance argument. So in other words, maybe try to get random following, doesn't need to return a spam. But if I'm using spans for all my other plots operations I'm about to use it as.

D

L

Guess not really like, is it forgot, a string I? Can't you ready to expand to well try to get rid of felony would do on a perv like wait a moment, yeah yeah. So.

A

That one I think it's fun, I'm saying with it. If we wanted to trim this down, I would say that we can avoid the get empath yeah, because that's going to write it right, deterministically over and over yeah, and that's something turbulence on. Oh sorry, I guess what I meant was. What would you use? Try.

L

A

L

Falling for that wouldn't take a string.

O

L

What am I gonna do with the results of that? Maybe it's in is it sellable, but if I'm just make me a string anyway, I mean like if I open it in a fall screen. Do we have fall streams to take a span.

A

For the column, but.

L

Presumably, you might be throwing.

A

It in to straight-up join yeah. Amendment planning is not qualified, but it's literally just a bunch of characters or is it qualified yep is fully qualified? Well then, what would you posit to join? You want suffixes. Are we doing that in our tests? We do we.

L

Use it as a folder name to dump stuff below. Why does it need to be a try like? Why can't it just.

B

Throw if the span you give it is too small, like it's always going to return exactly 12 characters. Always it's contracted.

A

To it, so we don't have up this well, he points that out and sliced the length. 12 I. Guess it's just a consistency.

A

We shouldn't call Detroit.

D

Elvis return: hispanic triumph. Let's you trying to bully.

D

This is like, if the caller, if the caller, has to check the boolean return value.

A

Anyway, to see if it's interested or failed, then the caller could also just check the link before calling the API to say our user than or so.

N

Do we have consensus then that get 10 puff does not deserve it. The others do and try to random file. Name should not be crying well, because if we make.

D

It get random filename, which would then go back to being I, don't know if it would return the spanner because a good avoid and then just though, if he gave it anything under the 12.

D

If it's, if it's literally contracted to write, 12 characters that maybe it should yell at.

A

You of I expect to be called with 12 characters. I don't understand what does he mean I think when does the span come from you.

L

Posse, don't want to return why it returns. It said it's. Instead of adding the length he returned destination that slice, 0, comma 12, the random path is, would have passed in the first 12 characters. No, it writes it writes into the destination and then tells you I wrote that to the first 12 characters by giving you the a span of it.

B

Like it literally always returns 8.3 filenames, always.

L

But why you can just trim the thing they are a pool all right, whatever you're passing in to tell I, don't know right. So that's why I would think that this, if, if we're gonna, do that, we would make this get random filename and it throws an argument.

Q

L

Destination that lake does not equal to 12, so it run. Our file name is documented today, because in these I see what I saw thinking codes. Well, it's so the documentation just says it returns. A random.

A

File name, the source like the dev dog and the source code itself is.

L

Hard-Coded apron like we're, never King yet, because if we change it, it would bring people. Why would you bring people who are using strings clean because.

A

Maybe you rely on string, don't like.

D

Clean 12 yeah, like similar things in happen, why I thought there was a fully fortified I'm just going to call an API random, doesn't mean yours and all to return when their videos I know this being works. In my code.

J

D

Also because it looks like some people call get random file name.

F

And that immediately should trim off the last four characters in.

B

F

Get eight random characters without an extension. This.

B

Is on those areas where looks like one of the feature crew members will be here like even notice.

M

So maybe we could allow.

C

It to be eight.

B

Or twelve and we.

C

Thought is anything but.

D

There's nothing there's nothing wrong, would try to get random file name right, I, just we just don't know if it's useful and as as written I. Think that isn't fair! Yes,.

P

Which gets my kill.

B

Early as we actually kind of goes to zero.

P

Anybody else, otherwise it's just a program.

L

With one together.

P

L

Well, we're killing try good time.

D

Happen right, weakly I mean I, don't care like.

C

D

Shouldn't change during the lifetime of the process, somebody can call and get the string once.

B

They can hold it for as long as they want to and then they can copy it to whatever they want.

B

The channel crisped up again.

D

B

I

Because I mean there was.

L

An argument made regarding like well, it can't change, but your application will probably didn't look confused if it does, because now, all of a sudden the data that it no longer exists.

C

All right, let.

D

Me ask guys, are happy on my BS guys I'm in the compiler guys.

B

Is anyone looking at the child, a child? Okay? What was the request for this one?

B

So the request. So it's basically the same thing that we already have.

J

So basically, what they need to be able to do is, let me just store the data somewhere all right, so they put it in the data segment somewhere and the resulting PDF file, and they forgot the details that but.

E

There was a nematode Ruby on so effectively. They have to store.

B

Type or size of.

E

C

E

B

Length of the array or something today and so effectively what you do is you load the data with a field handle and like this yeah, so they get to look at this API here, initialize array.

B

It takes an array, so the color is responsible.

H

For Ellen, you.

B

Know- and it takes it, takes the array and it takes the few ten women you just initialize it, and so the lowest equivalent we can we could come up with is basically this.

H

You're, basically creating a span over the dater so effectively pausing the few channel and try.

D

To have it remain stack allocated at one time. It's not it's. The pointers that you.

C

Return to span yeah because it's allocated entity.

B

You free to return its Bank, so so the idea is right. Now we store that so right now you can write. Read-Only span of byte foo equals new byte blah blah blah and.

E

That doesn't actually allocate a byte array. What it does is it calls the compiler special cases out and calls the read-only span constructor that takes a void.

D

Store because it knows where the pole, the data is because it's only the DLLs data ii play for things like int. We can't do that because there are machine, indian s, issues right. So the idea is. If we have a method like this, then we could say that the compiler can team in occulted us and the runtime can say.

D

If the machine Indian Asst matches the endianness of the dll that was created, then I can just match it time, replace it with a call to the Bois, d'arc instructor and a story if the endianness has to be swapped. That can be done once the things allocated on the garbage collected heap and it just returned to a single point up there. Any reason why we didn't put it on span mister after time span as opposed to putting it over time.

D

Members, it's a compiler specific, but you do so many from priority knows how to call the constructor I realize been know this. This would be called by the constructor or by B compiler. There's there is an API on span that public API that takes a void star, that the compiler also calls, but we also expect application developers to call it. For instance, when.

E

Coming back from P invoke this API, we don't expect out developers to call it.

D

All because they're generally not going to have access to the runtimes behind all this really is for compilers. So maybe it's. My only hesitation is that runtime app resist a runtime time now, ties to span and runtime numbers together you'll never be able to dig up a little at that point. We may already be in that boat I mean, but you will never be able to expose this, for example, without 20 commandments, which is fine because the compiler, if.

E

The compiler is targeting full framework, it will say: oh the API doesn't exist, so I'm not going to use us, and if the API is targeting dotnet core with the appropriate API, then it's as I will call it right. I mean we already followed that pattern today and have lots of pieces and I know that compiler just like that, like I.

D

Was a huge concern, just don't like eggs? Well, okay! So if we, if we put it on spam, what would that look like so Joe, similarly to be constructed at different time field handle.

D

So what was the question and then make it non-public or leave it? It has to be public. No, it has to be called by the compiler. It has to be allowed by it. It has to be allowed by the CLR. These are the things that have to be true of the word Republic.

D

No, it needs to meet public API, there's no eternally. If you have compiler College like you're.

L

Not going down there back yeah for sure no I mean you could always, if you put it on spin, you can always make it other browse Bowl, never right, because it's a compiler API, which we could but I mean they give me the time as colored. One time help us and where is it well I'm saying like what if we put this on.

P

L

P

Yeah, oh yeah. One time helpers is pretty good cup of tea at one time.

D

I receive this, maybe it would have to be one fast family. It can't be a portable spam yeah, but that's the whole point right, because victory does the.

I

Same thing as initialize array array, logic.

I

I guess we could put.

D

It in that core specific version of the course.

E

Panel well, this is what this is going to go in system rundown. For that court. That's only place you could go, can't go anymore right, yeah, but I.

D

Don't know that we've split the rafters span so we'd have to split the.

P

Rest event, this would go over that Cori new.

B

Ap, specifically yeah, this seems like.

I

L

If we really don't I, don't have a strong opinion, it just a little.

E

Bit in terms of the coupling of them, I mean coupling.

L

Between one.

E

Man and one guy members.

L

Should we make a difference, static class form? No, it's not worth that I would either put it on span right here. Yeah like it, it.

D

Seems to like the.

I

Only logistical putting.

D

It on span around.

I

E

Could potentially go on memory.

E

So, what's the point of you just there's not a really problem: I.

D

Mean I mean, if you put it anywhere else, maybe put it on spend. How does it help you? Because it goes into the same contractors.

L

Because you need your.

G

Support for this, or oh of course no, sir, so then the compiler would say.

O

If it finds a span constructed under your target, that is I.

B

Guess the system.

C

This is a second pile everything.

B

Or a super boffo combination, it's both because they're compliant.

L

Were has to know to call it and the runtime has to know how to interpret it. So this wouldn't help anybody who's. Building a library is that standard career us, the compiler, would not call it yeah, because the API wouldn't exist just well. No, no I mean.

D

If you're, targeting, if you're, targeting something portable, we can't have this in the references. Yes, we can once we add how so we can put it in the net standard ones, yeah definite.

L

D

And the message one time, how buzz isn't necessarily you just add a member to it? No but I mean does it how how do you add this API without oh you're, saying in some future net standard that also relies on the ca1 feature: okay, yeah, that works I, never call it as I'm like how are you gonna make this one for somebody.

I

Yeah so putting it on span and the coupling is already doing. Does an I don't think it's gonna be.

D

Condition we're never will be we're never going to be able successful move of spam. This basically will help this isn't just.

I

F

Where we could never rip.

D

L

I

L

D

Prove, even though, all.

L

Right, if sometimes not paying attention.

B

Now he has somebody bought this out the other day.

M

Yeah, this is one thing where I think we need the compiler guys here, because you guys have enough context on this, because I don't think my food, no.

N

Judgment that this won't work at all I think I've. Never all right, read or written a line of code that contained system link instructions.

N

First of all, it's talking at standard.

B

B

B

Already rejected because he didn't slug lemon correctly.

L

B

Need to be prepared for news api's fail why you might not.

I

Be able to be very on process for tyrannies Antares, for instance, they permit a persistent.

B

On collection, she could exit the night effectively. I I, don't know what at which ones. If they give you a handle that you just can't carry on I did then between just give. You know.

D

That even a handbag, I, don't know how it works. I mean we should test it in that environment. It's just. We need to make sure that the API was resilient itself.

D

Then looks like he had some note here: don't ask the pet ask.

C

D

D

Don't know if we can get it all on flat box.

L

So maybe this is better as a try. Nothing maybe I'm really like the being that being methods instead of properties or like whatever find it through, throw.

D

Properties that we would expect to throw.

D

L

Was emotive, saying the primary process is, the primary purpose is killing a process of children and maybe we should have another API event.

L

There wanting to go up instead of unless they're wanting to ask for all processes and.

B

Ask whose parent is this guy in the half set of it I mean his primary motivation seems to be this yeah.

B

Which is give me a way to walk the chain, so I know who the children are than a determinate I mean like we already know there.

L

Are cases where you can't successfully integrate the process list yeah, but it's the other way around I mean it should be always able to see it sure you can. Generally you can most of the time yeah. This is the process. It's going up going.

B

Going up is sometimes blonde one. One reason that that might be the case is if your parent runs on a different, a different trust.

L

Level the new event Ares has their own your custom impact of logic anyway, also going down sometimes.

F

This block too, depending on the kind of process a respondent was Donna okay, but.

D

I mean if going down is blocked. It means you don't have permission to touch that process.

M

Anyway, so it's.

D

Okay, if you skip it as part of the killer.

D

Yes, maybe these are terrible Liam that I have to skip any children's, because I wasn't allowed to talk about, but no I mean like you, won't even be able to enumerate yeah fair, which means that, as far as your worldview is concerned, you successfully kill all the children.

D

This is a horrible way to describe what.

D

L

Bad as a poor child.

D

Direct descendants or recursive descendants.

J

Do we have kill actually on process? Is that movie.

B

B

H

Actually yeah, we do it's.

G

Called kill somebody.

L

Has an API called kill time in check work.

L

Kill yeah there's the public name of a unit.

F

Signal yeah except ours, does what you think it does.

C

I mean kill above process tree seems reasonable to me, I mean. Instead, this is lovely. You.

L

Would do kill with a hooli instead of a new method, kill tree yeah? Why.

B

Would you choose a method or look for them, but what we did use a new method name for them.

B

See the time it's a different way to kill it right and what happens if.

C

So the thing about killing a single process is, it can throw an exception and everything.

B

Is still in a good state because the processes either killed or it's not when you have kill tree and like you can't kill the.

D

Fourth, child process, for instance, to keep going you keep going. I would say: I mean if you call this method, you clearly try to clean up right as a I know why you're here, I, just I, guess killing if we can throw anything's good old aggregate exception, kiss all the ones that could be kill. Yeah here, I got like six exceptions here you go. A bundle is six exceptions for I mean as long as it's well defined. Behavior sure I mean.

I

It's as well declining against again what's wrong with handing.

B

The process and what I've.

Q

B

Of the time doing,.

Q

I

Q

L

Reason is that the problem is the policy right. If you, if you walk up, you may not be able to walk out I'm gonna be able to walk down. So it's a bit of a fuzzy behavior.

D

Decker, you have to you, have to add more API servers. You have to define more policy, the other ones, just one method.

C

And it's just the best everything right, I.

E

Mean you're giving that was the processes, so isn't maybe maybe one of the children maybe.

B

One of the trial processes was terminated while kill tree was going on like right now. The behavior of kill is that it just throws and stops. In that case, I bet, you're, saying, kill tree would continue right. Yeah I was asking why.

D

Don't we just have tell people to call your child processes I? Think it's because before going forward, because everybody will have a naive implementation that will work 80% of the time, but nobody will have an implementation that works correctly answer busting anything I mean it seemed like the vid scenarios. I, don't argue ours. What you doing was correct. You that's Department! That's why you're baking.

E

The policy of what trying our best in this failure, like this ignoring.

L

Airs doesn't seem like the greatest. What depends on what the behavior is right, I mean I, think generally I would say baking in policy lubricant.

P

And we or the policy is a fine state, but what other policy could you possibly want? Usually.

E

P

E

Sort of reporting, or maybe treat rise and other things on this process. Yes, I'm gonna, give you kill if you kill a process and you want to kill everything that this thing's spawned. It is almost always guaranteed to be clean of scenario. You don't give a whether somebody at least al.

B

Or not, you just want to kill as much as you can't. You don't leave the Machine in a good state like you're, not going to take this information for January. You know writing a lock file was like. Oh yeah. I just killed him as build and it kills three other worker processes and the compiler. So the policy decision would be if you, if we move everything recursively and we hit a little point in the tree and we call kill and it gives us access denied right. Did we go to it? Children or not?

B

No, you just we just stopped it. Some say you just made a policy yeah I'm, saying I mean it. Maybe it's a policy right, but its own sales right.

L

So and what does it mean that there's a positive know? What I'm saying is that so I sort of what other policy would you possibly want to have delete all the children? But if you can, you can right, that's that yeah generally, if you can't kill this guy general, you can't go because well general depends on whether the process registered that.

P

It doesn't want to receive the kill same old yeah. That is a specific thing. Instead,.

D

Of that, it's in a different trust level, yeah the.

B

Sure, especially on.

P

B

Where you're allowed.

P

C

D

Term and say like yeah, that's nice, but now.

D

L

I think that maybe we want the innumerable of pit or process or whatever of get my children with optional recursiveness and then even getting your children may fail. If you have, if you don't have access to the process, you're not gonna, get an actual. You know right.

L

I mean it's the fair we kind of failed. We shouldn't do to be recursive and to stay invisible kind of failed and need to reverse it. Don't get me wrong, I. You know I love the process explore if you just right-click it one more. It's a chart out tree. That's like that. Again, that's amide, actually trying to look at what they're almost.

L

All right, maybe just point on what we just discussed.

L

E

Never get child processes, we gotta figure out the policies.

D

Well, OS simply doesn't tell you that you have a child process. Well, so even OSM yeah. Maybe what.

C

Did agent pages, maybe API shape like I, would I would still recommend turning things like a parent process into either.

E

Saying it can return null or you turn it into Tryg, inherit process and remove the API that returns a parent process ID, because.

K

It's probably not the thing that you actually wanted.

D

So having you think that it would return null in the case where in either the parent is dead or you're not allowed to talk about it, you know instead of because yeah I guess there's do you want to build for dead, would throw for access tonight or do you want to go for both.

J

Or throw for both I don't know if it's possible to tell the difference.

L

In all cases, but.

L

Well, but it would be one thing to see like depending on how much better they be you get, and it's like. Oh I, see that there's this thing and it has a relationship- and this clearly is the one who wants Tiffany like great I, would like to go. Get the information from the pet that we need to create the process object. It's like oh you're way over meeting now, yeah you.

D

Have over so it sounds, and at that point like why even tell you that you have a parent.

L

If you can't act on that information, what's the purpose of having information.

L

Thanks Jeff the best analogy: a kilometer.

D

L

D

Think it would be reasonable that it would return wrong to say, like if failure for any reasons which are called this device could not be used I. What does it mean? You.

M

Don't have a device in the vise returned on your account it that.

L

The device told me that a vise could not be humans, I.

L

Can't have you.

D

Finished your homework. What is.

L

It is it walking you out until you can't pick I can't kind of look.

D

Whatever technique is expensive,.

L

I

Juan's process right now, let me know what Jeremy Jeremy a cool yep.

I

I

But it feels like.

B

Q

Can unlock didn't work but smart car don't like it.

Q

This is Mike.

L

L

That's amazing: I go to second page that says no results. I think that means you're done, sir, go to love.

C

Or you don't have permission to see the segment I think.

C

All right so item.

F

Referendum index is different times it already.

C

D

Fiveways rope API, so what they're looking for is the ability to return. If you have a dictionary, T key T value and T value happens to be a struct they're. Looking for the way to not copy the struct, when returning that they just want to return the reference to in stone now get that. But why is eunsang broken he says? Well, then, we're just as improved. This is pretty really realistic dictionary. Well, if you provide a mutable ref at that point, you have problems because now have personnel under match out I.

D

Don't know why it would be burning programming.

B

Maybe I'm missing something, but I think this was not really particularly APA.

D

This was more better than you. That's at least how I saw.

D

B

It makes sense on things like worst.

D

It I'm typing it again in my other editor, because it's horrible to do this on a different screen.

M

I'm gonna be a bit of a jerk.

M

I'm looking over the policy of attachment under house propelling children, and so what they do is they go? They attempt to kill everything in the.

D

Tree except for the task manager process itself, because that Misaka and then they report back a single failure. If anything failed.

D

So so, but there I have basically resuming a minute to give you a nickname ever a good idea. It's it's not even aggregate it's just like for success for failure, but they they just returned literally true or false, but yeah. Ok, they make sense, know anything, but they also, interestingly, exclude themselves from the list of chore Miguel.

D

B

C

So I think I'm very done for today. All right now, let me disconnect the stream.