.Net Foundation Design Reviews, 12 Jan 2016

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From YouTube: .NET Core Design Reviews: SIMD and Console

Description

We're reviewing API additions to System.Numerics.Vectors (our SIMD library) and System.Console.
* https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/5202
* https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/4636

A

Alright, so do you want to give us an overview of what this API is about short, so.

B

We've had a few requests for this, like actually quite a few. You know over the or the months, so it's sort of a interesting API right now, there's no way to construct a vector of tea from my pointer location of any kind, um and so this is kind of problematic. If.

C

You have your data stored somewhere, like in.

B

The native buffer, or, if you're, interrupting with some library that has the data that you want exposed and a native buffer.

B

So one thing that I think I should mention first like by doing: why do we need this api? If this thing is a structure, why can't you just like take a pointer to it and dereference it etc, like none of the other structures in the bcl have like pointer constructors, so I'd be able to this one I just want to mention like because this is a generic struck.

B

C-Sharp doesn't let you like take a pointer to it, so you can't like basically, you couldn't take your your data pointer and then cast it to like a vector of T pointer and the dereference that just based on those limitations, so we need like a specialized constructor. They use to create vectors from a planner, um so the proposed API, it's basically just additional overloads on top of those. We already have that take an array um and an offset.

B

So now you can just pass instead of an array as a pointer and offset, and you can pass an in pointer if you don't want to use on safe code or you can use a void star pointer, which is a little scary, but it kind of fits with the nature of the API already and it's the most flexible thing.

B

So we've had quite a few requests for this, so it's definitely something people want and they sort of no really work around like. If you don't have this API, the only way to get struck two vectors with an array right now so you'd have to like copy. All of your data into an array did I. Do that I.

D

Would say this is probably the most requested and probably the cheapest yeah.

B

Because it like I'm the jit side, it's probably really similar to like the air over look. The only requires.

D

Changes in the intrinsic recognition, no downstream coach, it changes rate so.

B

Why do we need the opposite parameters? Why not just like advance the pointer and pray right? That's that's an option um I'm wondering if we have any other guys in the bcl that we like. Do we not do this, or do we do that? Do this I sort of just shows us, because it's mirrors the array, one where we have an offset and it makes more sense for her I. Obviously, um yes,.

D

So I was going to ask to show for the red the array- it's not really an offset of than index. That's.

B

D

Is this actually a byte offset Sylvia.

B

No, it's an element upset so.

E

Moving index, it would ya, be like it connects. Oh, this one is an element. It's certainly it's guess right.

B

D

We probably don't want to call it may I would suggest.

B

D

Only not section as I've it would be. That is quite honestly.

A

To me, that suggests getting rid of it altogether, because it's prone to these kind of interpretation mistakes we're better than by the same.

B

And perhaps for the inner one we should leave it just because, like adding it in pointers, is a bit awkward lenses.

E

B

It's just like less convenient than like, adding like, for example, you have a float star pointer. You can just add like four to it. You can skip four elements, but again an int pointer yup like.

F

B

Like add the clients, it's like add the size to your, like. You know, I'm around. If you wanna skip and you have to like, create a new int pointer and add it. We.

A

Do you think PDR overloads at all I thought.

B

They were kind of nice just like because it doesn't force you to go down Don safe code. If he's not it's still unsafe.

E

Doesn't force you to go to unsafe? Go that's to me is a negative I.

A

Mean that I mean honestly, like that's the big father, I, think, there's a sceptic. If you actually use a pointer, uh then the nice thing is you kind of get the auto computation right you? Basically, if you have a float star or whatever you x, for a it's like a dry for like you, it does right thing versus if you have an in PDR while you with yourself so in that sense, is actually somewhat less say it's because I don't have to do the right thing.

A

Plus I mean, as Kristoff said, just because the type is not actually a pointer time. You can still stack overflow if you do the wrong things right, I mean you know: Sega's Oh, like Buffalo flow right. If you use the wrong pointer, you exceeds that. Take I mean read like memory that you're not supposed to read.

E

Orion yeah: what happens if I pass some weird offset now I land on the managed heap somewhere and.

B

E

To it today again very much oh I, miss some excellent, say yeah and I would not have it honestly, which was where the one that takes in pointer because they're the one that takes. Oh it start at least you have to put it in unsafe block. So you know this is how unsafe code works. This one is like you don't have to have any on, say, block you just possible to random numbers, and you write to this, and now we corrupted the heat without the code being unsafe, I.

B

See what you're saying this is so that really supplies it a copy to won the constructors are strictly like read-only. They would just read the data, but it probably does apply a copy to one if it Oh. What do we mean? You can affect 430, you can, but it's a structure. So it's just a copy but copy to will store the data pack. That's in the that's the end, effector, oh.

E

So I see it with the constructor the parameters when I pass a cottage. These basic texture that pan copies, I say, is ok.

A

We should matter, why do we have a gut, and it says like in pd, action will be using the API, true rights to the pointer. We don't, but within a little truth, because I mean in PDR that just reads I mean it's still not safe, but you can do a lot less damage. I.

G

A

We follow that guideline Marshall today, I think Marshall is weird because Julie allocate because Marshall has a bunch of API is that are like super unsafe right. I mean, like you, know, pierina in PDR to structure you get it you right to it. Everything's doing I. Think Marshall, like I, think the idea with Marshall was because its interrupt services, you know everything there. That say, I think that's that's I mean if you use system Eric's vectors. You know it doesn't imply that this may corrupt the heap a.

H

Structured, a pointer does exactly we just said: yeah.

E

Oh Eddie, like.

B

Alignment issues requirements with this API so right now we just do unaligned loads right. um We had discussed like his requirements when we initially were coming up with Cindy library um and like wasn't it Intel, who said that there's, like some guidance, that as of like the current processor, you know lineup, it's not like a big performance hit if there, if you do online loads, so we just always do on a line loads. So.

D

We do we do a line loads where we know, and we only we only assume. We know when it's on the stack, if it's so uh name be paid extra cycle, I think, but on the Intel processors. It's basically the same. Oh it's just unless it crosses a cache, a cache clear and then you know is that ok.

B

So I'm I'm fine with anything off the in pointer, overloads, cuz, that's really consensus. The reason I include them like initially was I was thinking of some libraries like a system drawing like. If you have a bitmap you can, you can basically lock the vents and it gives you a printer back and you can read and write to those pixels I can do an in pointer so technically like if you were using this API.

B

You could just use the entire overloads here for that without you know, dropping down town, safe code, where the pixels that you're getting a firm system not drawing it.

E

Would be nice if we have the language feature that allows you to an update, seemingly safe, api's with unsafe and force? Despite the fact that you know baby, I wz the I pointer. You have to still use this API in a not say block I mean that would actually be we're, not markers on ships. No unsafe.

A

Doesn't exist, this is just a lousy to use pointers in C sharp, but I think we discussed this before, because we had similar api's are immutable. That would always you get in the line array. We wanted to the same enforcement, but so far it was not enough. They do for the C sharp teeth. It should do that. A lot of that question is there an implicit cast in c-sharp from widestar to what's our address.

B

Who you can cast any minor to void star what.

H

Do I have to cancel.

B

You don't have the cast includes.

H

B

Explicitly ask any minor to another fun, okay and any minor in simplistic s full of waste.

B

So basically what this means you could like. So this is vector of tea. But if you have like, if you have like a specific type of actor like vector bite, you can mess if I'd start to it or a slow start in a flow. So.

E

Honestly, I would start with just the voice start. Yes, based solve two problems: unsafe, it's unsafe and second problem. You, if there's no ambiguity, what the offset is and.

D

And I would rename a second next, okay, well.

E

But I wonder whether we should even have it like the moment.

I

You just have no.

E

Because we just get a pointer- and you know if you want to upset you just say, plus.

J

B

Sounds fun of me so.

K

The research wave is what you a short demo copy, I think so it sounds great to.

A

K

B

A

You want to talk to the alternative approaches, or do we believe there you know so.

B

We're just going to answer this one yeah, so the one thing about the sort of the constructor takes avoid star and, like all the miners are implicitly castle to each other. So that means you could technically create a vector of bite by passing in like a float star and simplest implicitly castable, it would still work. I mentioned. I think, that's okay, because you might just want to interpret your data and, like the pointers, are implicitly or explicitly castle anyways.

B

So, even if you took this approach which would have liked factory methods that took the strongly typed pointers, you could still just take a float star and cast it to a bite storm passed to this anyways um and it's a bit more like awkward, I, think using this, and we also need like ten overloads for this yep. You can't do you can't do a t-star, um I think like technically, you can and I'll, but like not in c-sharp integer.

C

Okay, so one other question I had is I, don't know, I know it's not C sharp for sure, I'm not sure behind.

E

It is a nail because we do it in span. Basically, we have it. This type of span, which is very similar, retreat, vector and half of it, is written that I have for the pedestrians yeah.

H

Do you think it's a failure or because the reinterpreting is kind of a advanced scenario right you decide I all the time people would want.

H

Yeah yeah, you kids, if you can't, if you can't actually create the API and the reference assembly or I, guess you could do it an eye out and the C sharp and understand it well,.

E

I, don't think so. The.

G

Way we create spam, we have every right there. Basically, what is your public it yeah? Oh I, see there's no T star in the public, API Thor it! No! No! No and.

H

It's the I, see ya so.

B

Then we would have to have like they didn't have.

H

To have the boystar in public API, so then that way you could know you that yeah.

B

I mean we could have these like 10 overloads, where we had all my star and star posts are all those isn't them be a closed set, though if somebody else had their own value type. It is it's a closed that you can t 0 value type of vector, 0 RT. Yes, so it would only be 10 like ever, but it's still 10. So what's the key constraint to t is constrained? T like struct and like.

A

It's one of six.

B

Or seven times, essentially, which we can't express my limit of types, let's what.

D

We never did get I arithmetic, so it's just struct. So.

G

It's just drugged, but then we not just trucks right. It's literally like int, you in like it's one.

L

J

G

Generic constrain it sold yet.

D

But the generic constrain itself can't say that so.

A

That's all I'm saying so: I think they could practice. Our constraint is, if you accentuated, with any random struct, we will fail and it will fail. You during construction, correct.

E

Yes, runtime, there's a tableau effortlessly. This chart is just like two inch. You still fact we still fail. I see which is again related to span we want to. We literally cannot afford having this first fan, so fans need to handle strikes that are don't contain. Internally fighters are references to keep objects, so we need to have a constraint for now. We are discussing like how to call it. It's called primitive. Now it's just an attribute. We don't enforce it, but we are thinking about it.

E

If we had such constraint in the language actually, would you change vector of tea I? Don't.

B

Think they're Devils rain is slightly differ as ours like you, can't use a custom value type with with vector of tea. It has to be like a primitive type, which is basically just all the end types of the UN types and then float level you're.

A

Thinking you will you mean primitive in your brother's, not.

K

A

Know one of these 10 x, plus any struct that only contains one of those or itself is a and we would have the same thing except for the recursion and.

E

Here it only makes up to the point where you actually do some operations on the data. So, okay.

A

I mean if you could say, Tico the numeric. That would probably be pretty close to work we would like to have. When are we getting that numeric I? Don't think ever? Was I well I guess retreading nobody. Nobody like recently tried to formalize the proposal for their languages I meeting, so we tried that I know I think nobody did I. Think yeah.

D

We did so I did a reason: yeah, okay, Teresa yeah, I.

E

Think that's not.

D

E

Like I, just don't understand like well, I mean you're free to write it up. So one other question: it comes to money because are you I'm gonna just ask her or it's already written up brother? She still has.

D

Yeah I don't know if you wanted I grass, but but yet.

A

The time to do it, the.

D

Time we were talking about this, you.

A

Know I really felt strongly.

D

That it ought to, we are to be able to compose that constrain, that you define the standard operators without requires that you have static interface constraints, ecstatic yeah instead, I get it now are shared so um doing that requires a change, the clr, and that was a non-starter for the scene, sharp teeth, but he didn't want to have. Apparently, generic really really bad with. It would be painful because they were, it was being exposed in both the CL RN C sharp at the same time, and the dependencies were so.

E

Why don't we do it? It kind of in two steps like first, do it in CL, r, ni, l and then do it in c-sharp later I.

D

Tried that and nobody thought it was worth doing, because everything ready to use it and there was no guarantee that the c-sharp came would ever adopt it all.

A

D

We're closing baby.

A

That's what I'm saying I think I think we should write it up and we should make sure like have enough of a landscape to say these are the features that would benefit from that and I think I think span.

A

I, don't know what you could tie to that, but I mean, like the whole operator thing by the way to me, is very similar to what we already know that we kind of need were just like the whole extension everything kind of thing right, because if you can break a party type today that pretty much only supports methods. Everything besides methods, properties, operators, you're, screwed and then include special.

A

You know: static methods will also be I, don't know how far we could go with one of the design points, but one of the leaders that I have. If you would have static extensions, you could potentially have static operators right. There are living on different types, and now you could do it on any time. Theoretically, right so there's many ways you could go about doing some of the stuff, but I think it's just a matter of writing and justifying it.

A

But as I said, it's probably already know for sure, but I mean my point: is it's not just a they're writing the semantics? um It's also about making clear what the video ad is and like which features. Would you said and I think that needs a recent motivation anyway? So one other question that I had I think John brought this up last time.

A

If we have an API that takes pointer there was this guidance to say: if you consume more than one value, you need to pass in the length explicitly because otherwise you may be surprised that it reads six elements right and I think I'm vector we said. Well, you know the sizes, it's it's implicit, it's it's it's! It's known. I think it's a fixed size, but the exercise is hardware dependent. So should we add there should be forced people to posit in or not so you took the size. You always have the person like vector.

B

Electorate, load or other yes,.

A

So into the idea being like any API, the basically reads or writes memory and takes a pointer variables, you always have to pass in the length so you're never surprised by what it reads because otherwise like if you actually you know, do API reviews and you see a pointer posten. You may not expect this thing to reach. You know a number of bytes or write a number of bytes.

A

Personally, my care level is close to zero, but I mean I. Think once you talk about unsafe codes, it's probably guideline worth thinking about yeah.

E

It is, it is a fit a good point, but you're saying it's hard to intended. How.

A

Much would be yeah, but it's very simple. It's like factor of your type dot length, so I mean it's not like it's a complete, unknown and.

B

I static intelligence on us. How much it always reads exactly.

E

So what about this is the vector t dot length, a constant depending.

A

On tes, because we.

E

A

Parameter that this defaults to it, if it's a constant, no, it's not a consonant sense, it's hard for dependent, but within a given hard work on a given processor, it's a fixed value, but you don't know aesthetically.

E

Wish yeah it's not a concept, yeah stop, so we cannot do a default parameter. Christ yeah! That's.

A

I also think people are able to feed the purpose because ideas for code reviews, your force, will lead to read in the code. I think that was the idea of forcing string length, for example, to take lance and like that and string copying. All of those I mean probably we're following up with yonward. What would he thinks I'm at, because I think he was the last person asking for that I'd.

E

Seiken again imagined like for a further constructor. We don't care that much, but for the copy do we do because he writer it right. Do it you kind of want to say? Oh, don't try it more than what I think of t is by the book all right it is it so.

G

That means after you can started your right to it yourself. So I guess it's still. It's your right to a cup. Sorry, the individual elements aren't are credible. Thank.

D

A

That's right, you load right, but yours you're loading it. Basically the constructor copies all right, I see ya.

B

You know I think that's appropriate because it's fairly expensive, we want to support I, don't think we'd want to support copying less than the number of elements of the vector, though, won't be misleading. If we have like a a you know, a parameter that is a life hmm it.

D

Was so supporting any scenarios where that would be useful, and you know you would have to look with the appropriate zero for the type, presumably the that that would require a little extra work in the agenda, but I think there are scenarios where it would be convenient for people to be able to construct vectors from array that doesn't happen to be a multiple right. Now, if you want it, you know.

D

If you want to use back turkey, you almost are forced to ensure that when you allocate any of your arrays, you always allocate them on even multiple of vector of ghee, and you know it's like a huge hardship but having the ability to specify length and having it automatically Zurich stead might be useful.

B

Do you think you should have it openly? Okay, for that up, should we have like a length of the array. Overland know what.

D

We might want to think about it, um but how do you think to make sure that the JIT could generate efficient code, so you wouldn't really want to have a loop where you're always checking to see. If the length is the same, you know until the last iteration. Yes, you wouldn't want to encourage that kind of that stuff- regredi, oh it. You know it has some risk.

A

Well, the other questions like how much do you care about as far as intrinsic goes, would you prefer this being at different methods? So you know upfront other the length is supposed to be the same or not.

D

That would help so.

A

Maybe you should have like one with heading a river that.

D

Only you could really be a hard-nosed about it and have one that only accepts a length from one to UM length minus one, so you're forced to only use that for your clean up, my little heart and.

B

Otherwise, it throws are ya as a bear sign, I.

D

Don't know it's something to do under anna, I'm not sure that for me personally, it would require more but make sure that we're not depending.

A

One comes up come again, so.

E

The only thing is that any object like this later would be a breaking change.

E

What kind of a check for any check about you know like what we considered.

A

Valid well, I think today do if you would have all that it takes length you would enforce. You can only pausing exactly with the length is any video, so.

E

We would really mother.

A

E

If we wanted to, we could also do from you know one tool I can subset, but if you would do that later, then it's basically relaxing it, but which would be compatible change.

E

Correct your widening additionally, have it yeah.

B

So I did want to mention one other thing about like CLS compliance, the white stars not say less compliant and if we don't have an in pointer I'm, just wondering like, should we provide like white star one I, don't even know if I'd stars or say less compliant, you see you.

E

G

B

G

Started I think this is comprised in cocktails, but well in PDR is enough.

B

E

Didn't you say, like you have to provide home Terrance Fitzhugh, let's go fly, yeah I, isn't.

A

There are some other constructors of vector right. There are you're saying if I construct an array and I copy memory and I loaded, it see less compliant, but it's just less efficient, yeah, it's fully there, so you could do it. It's just shitty.

G

B

The sort of thing I discussed right away all.

A

Those, let's take a look thing: I'll, remember that yeah I, remember: oh yeah. I should have known every comment because, though, in.

E

The case of this one like stock hello, we still copy the data. Basically, we shall be first allocate study and I on the stack. Then we copied it to vector.

B

E

B

The important part is like legit will sort of optimized is like copies out. I see part. Oh.

D

I see but for a while you're talking about that I look yeah.

E

So we will not do two copies here. Yeah I mean that's right. It.

D

Will just load it, it generates the starting off set, I mean the starting address and that it just has one loaded.

A

How do you detect that pattern? The drip you just know it stack allocated because you saw the allocation to the variable earlier like how do you so.

D

In image it, if you are.

D

A

Would think beyond.

D

It recognizes all the Cindy types and then the symptoms are just these sort of generic uh 16 or 32 by entities that are treated like primitive types, so they may exist on the staff they may exist on the heap that may exist anywhere, but it's just this. You know opaque thing, and so then, when you do um anonib, which is what these all get translated into, is this? Is it operator once you get down to the code generator?

D

It says: okay, the source of the in it is um an interaction of this address and the address has been you know, he's represented in the aisle. So if the target is a sindhi type that was allocated into a register, it just does a look into that register. If it happens to be that the target is a field of a you know, something else or if it's you know it's a static field.

D

That's you know what, if it's in memory, that it does a load into a vector register and then a store into whatever the target is so from um you know, from sort of the importer on these are just sort of handled like any other primitive type.

L

D

They just sadly, have really complicated, passing Richard issues.

D

That are driving me crazy.

F

What other cruise vacations with passing, isn't in you so.

D

On linux, it has rather complicated.

D

Mechanism for determining how structs get passed so because we don't we're not using a vector api. These are passed in multiple registers and then those registers have to get bloated and then merged into a single register or a.

D

Domestic subscription I would like to be able to use the vector column invention for vector T, since it's on in and rock type for the others. We have to use exactly what you know will.

K

Be used natively.

A

All right, so the question that I had was the name doesn't do anything today will simply correct, say: dotnet native doesn't do anything with be screwed right now correct they don't detect our types.

B

A

B

D

Working on that, like a long time ago, they never met I.

B

Don't think really.

A

Meeting at some point and.

K

A

D

K

Nope, it seemed like he was working on it. I just said she didn't happen. I.

B

A

I, don't think.

B

A

That means on the net if we use the aisle code, let me hope that auto vectorization may do something smart, but that's probably up in the air with a direction s.

A

So what happens on desktop I mean like it's big changes done. In course you are, as suppose, it goes into full fabric as well, but if we add those overloads that means 47, my suppose right or whatever the next version number is right. So that means, if it would release it today, we would get you know whatever the X release. Of course it does. You would get the awesome performance when you use the unsaved api's. What happens on desktop now? Would they still work? Oublie would still work, but they.

B

Would, though, the new ones would be slower, yeah.

D

You know, that's gonna, be we're. Gonna have to live with that. No.

A

I'm just asking: how many do they blow up? That would be bad they're, very.

D

Definitely, okay.

A

That makes it the.

D

Other way, we wouldn't want that in any case, because otherwise, Eric and I would always have to work in total up step. It would be very awkward.

A

All right so I think that's all the questions that I had and then there was one that Billy Crystal brought up, which was a doesn't make sense to work to wait for span of tea, but I think the answer is no, because it is no yeah. We should.

E

In general, you waiting.

A

For yeah, that's true all right, then I think I am all my person and anybody else any questions all right. Wes then I, guess you can talk about the next one, except that Polly's get what.

B

Is like 1040, so did we land on just the two between inch like the two overloads white star, with no offset, and then that just both boy stars, yeah.

A

Like yeah the copy too and then the ball just take a white star and I would follow up with you on to check whether he cares about the length being passed in and I think the padding one we should probably think about, but I would honestly decouple that because yeah seems like a separate feature. Yeah.

B

It seems like potentially useful but yeah separate, because.

A

One other thing we heading comes up: do we want to support zeros, or should we also support other things like you know, I, don't know identity or whatever.

A

A

And by the way like, what's the timeline for that, we would put it into our TMS opposed or even RC write, something.

B

I think we're opening an RC too, but that's of it. Okay, how fast we can do it does not desire c 2. I think it is.

E

So quickly, going back to the IRS mary carol wants the cost. Just on our team, forget about c-sharp team like on everything to implement it in the clr and a enable it inna IL.

E

Is it like super expensive for its? You.

D

Know it's really hard for me to answer that because I actually did a prototype, but that was when I was new to the clr team. I didn't know anything about how the type system works. So jaan basically said: I've got a bunch of stuff wrong, but I got.

K

It working right.

D

So if somebody who doesn't even know the clr I mean I did know the metadata so but um I could do it. You know it was me six months to do that and a really happy version of vector, T and and just you know it's not a big cost. Something jaan could probably do it a week. Maybe more I don't know I'd, like I, said it's really hard for me to gauge based on six years old experience. But didn't you know it's not so.

E

If now, you know more about the system, what would be the cost if you did that it's.

D

K

The thing I I don't know.

D

K

D

K

Than young pretty sure, cuz I don't mess around it.

D

K

In between one weekend, six months, correct, yes,.

D

Yes, I'm pretty sure I could get it working in a month.

D

You know and then then he rounds of reviews.

E

We don't do you, are you and.

D

I'd say you know that the interface dispatches the ugliest code that I have ever encountered with you there's probably works.

G

But all challenge accepted.

D

Your way to fix this back is it wrong, and it took me many rounds with invaluable help from Chris onna to actually come up with a spec that describes what we do friend.

B

Or business venture, yes, I.

D

Don't know what I would have done without Chris goods. You know I take okay, you know, after like walking through examples, staria Dakota to keep. This is a right and then um Chris would say. Oh though I've got this other example now that it shows this isn't how it works and the like have to go back.

C

Will be wake up a lot, it should be just enough. English is Jewish women, okay,.

A

Doctors- oh it's fully awake or like if she's here in a minute, and you should prolly just wait.

B

Favorite list of them I, don't have had it quite a few think. That's like back already right, really similar beautician, wonderful I noticed we don't have the one that takes the frequency. Now we only have like how come you like games. How can you write songs? How can you write space boots.

E

People have deep, with frequency.

A

It is actually more instant people. Think of it. It is really didn't know that.

A

Throughput code, it's much easier to just say this: is code ever get reached and something there's easier to have a beep every.

E

Time should actually be after the bill that actually no like I need to sing this Peter now the bird system when it finishes it should be yeah. That's not bad. Actually,.

A

Actually, you have that feature you didn't on it. If you go to the windows control panel under sounds, you can register sounds there is a sound even for break point being hit in the ass as a bunch of things you can answer. How would you do it for your build, a change? There's a disconnect, there's an event want those finished, there's even one for.

E

Build sexy Falcone so.

A

E

Do we know what I mean this, where they build code effects? Yes, like.

A

Tom the command line from command line a commandment I, don't know what I mean if we're Finn vs there's a plenty of events, you can have that even for build failed, build succeeded. So if you want, like all four build failed, you can register.

E

Vs I don't care because usually the project across you know compilation times are short I care. What I built from comment line it takes. You know, 15 minutes, you just don't have in don't know one FL ashes, alright feature.

K

D

K

Also notes old spec. Yes, please, you know whatever good proposals, we.

E

Just need to love.

K

You idiot we just.

E

Need to love you Raja now to give you a month.

A

All right, you wanted I mean yeah.

I

A

Long, you should share the screen first cuz. That's that may be helpful if you can actually see what I'm seeing here we go me.

I

If you go down, there's actually analysis on what's left to be done right.

J

E

More left to be done already know.

I

So we did mmm adding a couple of those areas like so to answer on the top like it'd, be Pepi available, be added those, since we done enough, it better be working yes and we have beat that takes frequency, so we just have the provide some frequency rate. If.

A

The reason being we can't support it over so.

I

Exactly talks about it at sea, so yeah, so we are left with buffalo hide of a width largest in the white light is in dewitt. These AP ice kind of do not make sense on linux because there's no concept of further, but um it does I value on windows side. So we could support them by the saying that they will return the same as what the window I didn't do. It would be and let the scrolling function on windows we at least work a bit garcelle size would be something similar.

E

Do it so? What on linux? Basically, when you released- and it's always a skirt, okay yeah, so after height is window, that's.

I

What like this, there's no buffer boy say this, so I.

E

Think that's reason. Yes, I right you can write software that this truly possible does what you.

A

I

Sir sigh is not so much and I like it would be more of a new up online expert. It makes sense on windows again. Why.

A

Would we not throw we've.

I

Tried not to throw in most cases like life, I'm not supported exception, doesn't really healthier. A size hundred is like the default size of cursor there. So it is a nice noting.

A

The Gator is fine. The question is whether, if you said it, let's say that you say: if size is less than 500 succeeds well set size, 2 300 still succeeds. I asked for the sides again still have 100. It may be not what I expected to be now. The question is that better than to throw I, don't know what people use criticized for, but if you do it, for you know, computing offset or whatever, like your subsequent code, may not actually succeed it. All in weird ways is the gutter reliable or it's.

E

Also, sometimes the.

I

Wheels awkward yeah.

E

But but users can change the cursor, sighs.

I

Yes, something is, it was yeah.

E

Honey I don't know if the on Linux it's called a its reliably 100. Is that what it is? My understanding is I thought we just picked about you, I, don't know if we have any bacon, so this area is completely useless on this whole property, correct both getter and setter. Far as I I would honestly just I think we need to throw in these cases like we had.

E

We should talk a bit more. What we do in cases like this, and maybe that's the right forum, but, like you know, returning some fake values are doing a knob for setters I kind of don't like it, because it can just hide bugs and father.

L

F

L

Right, can you guys hear me yes, so the Gator in this case is a perfectly valid value. It's it's entirely accurate. It's just the setter that do it. I.

E

See so basically, the cursor size on Linux is 100 and it.

L

Cannot be changed right, that's that's a percentage! It's saying that the cursor sighs, whatever reason was designed to be a value between 1 and 100. That signifies the percentage of the vertical space. That's filled by the cursor and even.

E

So users gonna change it even like not using IP, is the user of the computer cannot change oculus? Is it far.

L

As I'm aware, there's no like it, at least in the shells that I've use there's no way to do that. Okay,.

E

So it is Steve. What do you think like I, I kind of tend I, don't feel strongly about this, but I don't have a very strong and well-formed opinion, but I feel like we should be just throwing that section. Instead of doing notes.

I

Wouldn't it be similar to a background, color discussion. Lately we didn't want to comply format supported in those cases, because now people have to test it across the board and they get different behaviors and didn't like it. Well.

E

But if somebody calls it, they call it for some reason: they want to do something and then it nope it doesn't do what they want either. So.

J

B

Something like this, it might just be a visual thing, though it might not be like necessarily functional, doesn't change the physical size like at the end of the world for them. It's.

E

Also, not the end of the world to do a test, couch the value and then just wrap these things in. If, if you don't care, how did being changed so I would.

I

Just say you should be consistent across the board. The consulate is, if you choose to reply from not support, they need to do that way with all excited using story. We're.

C

Going to throw it everywhere, we should have deep yet.

I

Yes, but we are doing that, it makes sense in most scenarios and hence we want to have if.

C

You're throwing it on all platforms and it doesn't make sense in any not on other platforms, I'll windows. It works on.

E

Linux, it does it I feel like in this case. We should just be honest with what's happening and just throw I mean the general the questions.

A

E

A

Be somewhat careful with statements like you should be super consistent because sometimes I'm an economic examples. The printer API, so I mean if you can enumerate the printers zero predators, a better dancer. So if there is it, if it is sensible answer, we can provide to degrade the experience of odds following that may be. Okay, like for example, course a size to me. If it's always 100 that you can never be changed, is it is a valid answer.

I

A

Question is how would you you I think honestly, if you have been meaningful, exceptionally explains what these things don't work may be okay, it may be tricky to write portable coat this way, because they've no other way to discover it, but I also don't think having create the eyes. All these things is necessarily awesome too, because now you have like is blah blah blah well,.

E

If it's, if it's tough to kind of parent and not statically not but like you can basically do a test, am I running on? You know linux and then the documentation says that the setter will never work.

E

Even if you don't need to clear API we're at the halfway. It's.

A

All, but this is my general problem with that- is that you make an assumption here which may not hold true, which is that all the Nexus are equal, which was some API is going to be the case. Yep different. Also, the feature set may change over time, so I mean the browser. Basically, space still is all times what happens when you have you know, platform checks.

E

Vs evo said, but if we discover that now there is more variation than just I OS, then we add query: API, I, wouldn't prematurely at query ideas in this case I, don't think it is required, since we don't know of an instance of an OS that is unix and supports it.

A

So some of you has a solution.

H

Can always build your own tips, static, call on its trendsetting catch exception, change abruptly little bit. If it people need to do that enough and they asked for a query API, we put it and.

E

Also like this is such a corner case API setting the cursor, sighs I would just not overthink it and I think exception is safer. Just like tells you what's going on and you move on. You solve the problem. If you try to write or to be I kind of, can imagine, let's say, there's an API that you call like better often and now you have to wrap them in all these statements, then, maybe.

I

Good tell me what you did that once I: don't really not for these eight days per se, like we had basing it on target goals, a TV.

H

So I be reluctant to add an exception if we thought it was a landmine like a hidden, hidden, API call something that you might not run until you go down one particular like data-dependent path of the application. These types of things are not that they're not like. Okay, you have some type of input and it causes the full application. Go like people are interacting with these AP is this is their user interface? This is how they're setting it up. So so it's not it's not like a landmine, it's more like it be in their face.

H

E

Me it's like this is hiding about literally by is somebody's trying to set it and this being a knob. It's hiding a bag and I kind of I would say by default. Unless we can a very strong reason. I would not hide bugs yeah.

I

And then you have couple of others so.

A

As a data point, by the way like we do have the data for you good and you have the data for API, a pardon me do have some desktop ads right there been. Probably the desktop app sample is pretty misleading, because it's mostly desktop apps, which doesn't include console app. So they don't use these kind of things, but ABI important you get both have a decent amount of like things for a console and the total usage is 0 point 0, three percent, so over the septum can.

E

A

Full for the cursor size combined together is a less than point 0 to 0, and then the setter is around point 0 2, so I mean it is a I mean, I would say your wife on the cat call. You no argument, but I would say that things like cursor sighs, I think I got feel- is probably close to being accurate um for some other things. It's misleading but, like you know, caps lock same thing, I mean it doesn't even show up in the data.

A

It's like I'd actually point three percent on desktop apps, but um you know I.

A

Mean the other argument we couldn't make is like small indie one may be better than whopping anyone, because we can always relax the check. We can never add more really.

A

So maybe you should go with the more conservative.

A

Steve, what are your thoughts on that.

L

A

L

G

Got myself a lot of we love it.

K

I'm going to talk about listening.

L

To myself we in the past we basically sort of made a judgment, call between throwing and no hopping where we've thrown, if it's largely observable and we've no opt, if it's mostly not so, for example like on the process class, there's a function or a property you can set to try and like temporarily boost to the priority based on whatever that means in the OS right.

L

We've made that a no op, because who cares there's you know because we could say it was actually boosting it, for you know no time and whatever, but in other cases where it's more observable, you know someone could actually take a dependency on behavior.

L

Somehow we've chosen to throw to make it clear and we've had some disagreements in the past about places where we've been throwing in folks have wanted us not to in this case I, don't particularly care I've, never used, cursor, sighs, I've, never known anyone who has and I don't really know why you would use it. The only thing I could imagine would be like, maybe put it into underline mode or something send it to one or 100 based on whether you want underline or a full block, cursor right, I can't think of anything else.

L

You would do with it. So if we want to throw I I'd be surprised if anyone hit it I'd be fine with that yeah.

E

I actually like the kind of guidance that you've just talked about, which is like if it's a performance, optimization like you literally, cannot tell maybe it happened. Maybe you did it right or it's something you know unobservable yeah, then nope, I think, is fine. Here. It's like I wrote my coat. I said it I wanted to write the you know, subscript or something like this, and it's not happening and I have no idea.

E

Why and I keep searching for hours and hours and I discovered that you know it's not supported on my OS better, since you get an exception, says that's amor,.

B

Gitana always Steven. Do you know if there's a way to set like underlying mode? Like you mentioned an unlit Ock's like delirious.

L

There is like an underlying thing: I've never figured out exactly what it does and I think it varies based on the Sheldon you're, using rather terminal that you're using we get experiment to see what it is, and you know if we wanted to. We could say that greater than 50 was full block and lower than 50 was underlined. Yeah. We.

B

L

Like those are.

B

The only two like, if you really only think people are going to use it for, like you know, full cursor or otherwise I was totally making out up. I was I was making out a fafsa top of my head.

A

So the best ad I didn't mean.

L

To to to emo's point, though, like, if we were to throw it's always the kind of thing we could relax in the future by adding a heuristic like that to go back between block and underline if we know up now, I'm, not sure it's something we'd want to switch to.

A

Be alright, so that means you should probably throw from precious eyes.

A

Any other interesting aspects of a new song.

I

No one's one thing that I know this is in the redirected mode. We do get very different in UNIX hand like in Linux and on windows. So the reason as Windows doesn't try to explicitly say: oh if I mean the redirected, more I need to throw this engine exception, the kind of relies on us to do the things for it so at times of throws ioexception at times at first, depending upon what hanging is passed to it.

I

Now, if we were to emulate the same kind of exception on the neck, so unix it just doesn't, it doesn't make sense because I owe extraction in case of redirection learning science person, so we will end up having different exceptions in the direction it will be directed modes of trustee fit. My.

A

Exception you mean, like you redirect and then you try to set the cursor management or cell phone that wouldn't work. Why why.

E

This a exception who didn't denounce so.

I

uh So, first of all, there is no guarantee that you'll end up getting higher exception. You could get like the msdn documentation. Also says you could get I exceptional, you ticket platform not supported, or you could get any exception. That saying.

E

Even for a hour window, so.

I

I cannot emulate that very simple. Similarly, like on some of the api's on Windows, we said. Oh you know, I will try to use the output handy to get the bad if the output is redirected, I try to list the input, honey or the error handy do it, which is not the case in Linux. It's mostly like we, since we are setting the streams like your writing to the stream, we use input and output handle.

I

So there's no reason for us to check, for if error he directed or not, I mean it just to kind of bring. Those behavior together doesn't make sense fear. So there will always be cold. Vp writing, which will not be portable in redirected.

I

But if we look through the guidance on msdn, it says use, this API is only after checking that you are not redirected. Somebody is using it correctly. It should be fine. Couldn't.

A

We do expose the video where that is redirected, hey be nice right, so so what happens of color, because I mean now on Windows, you know color is not represented as with escapes right. So that means it's basically a function of the windows on the function of the output versus on on unix. It's part of the text right. So what happens when you set coloring and you right? They do. We throw the week more like what happens in women yeah. We don't write about so on windows. The space it just means color is looking.

A

What is your redirected.

L

Right, yeah unix: if you try and write, if you try and write any of the ansi escape sequences and the console output is redirected, we just throw it away. I see.

I

A

You think that's the right behavior in all cases like what happens. For example, if you, if you pipe the output of a command to let's say less, does it then basically lose the colorful pedi nation yeah.

L

But you wouldn't get the you wouldn't get the color in mus anyway, no.

A

One lyrics: normally, you do get I, because if I, if I, like oh, like forgot, what it is, but I give lock. For example, whenever you, when you one gate lock if ID for pipes to less and it preserves the color.

A

You have to point minute: yeah I, think that I mean I, think I don't know what their views. I guess I could imagine something on unix by default, saying if we know it's a fight him to throw it away but sort of file and will be download or something I, don't know.

L

Well, that's what we do we I.

A

L

Was a bit simplistic and what I was saying, but we check whether the the handle the the state of the file descriptor rather is. Basically, you know the same one. That's used for a terminal if it's a chart device.

A

L

If we don't do that, then if we just say well we're always going to write it out, then you start writing it out to log files and whatnot, and you got a lot of gibberish I mean some of these ansi escape sequences can be pretty long, and now your log file that you pipe to is totally mucked up with with this stuff yeah.

A

I can see that being fun.

L

Actually, that's that's actually, the reason we initially added those those checks because it was causing all the logs and Jenkins to look like gibberish I.

H

A

So one person I read like it wasn't there something special about list on on on unix is this solve? This is still supported. This doesn't.

C

Only unsupported in another places donna native Publishing's, it's a it- requires another type that we don't even have new contracts, which is gr, get reader thing I see so like I, don't think you can have. These two does to advance needs to take the argument, but when the leasing school, they were only ever really needed, never used by many c++ in the past. As far as understood yet and.

I

For this dream and the including appears- and we had concerns around exposing- these are mainly for lake, but our principles per say and do we have any such since now with.

E

Exposing a Piazza treated street dreamer, actually never three.

I

Men and we want I, wanted to.

E

Avoid kozhikode reader and then Cody extremist faction.

I

And the encoding yes.

E

But honestly, I think we you know we should put its ship, has sailed.

A

You are fine with exposing and coatings and reader riders from Huntsville yeah.

E

Especially that, like with them coatings I, did some investigation. It's tricky like not having coatings there. Would it's not as simple as just okay. The factional doesn't because they need to be there internally.

A

E

Implementation.

A

Yeah I'm fine with it now does it mean I can maybe not be in this factory. So basically would expose those guys here and we would not expose those guys here. That's.

C

My understanding all right- this is an exhaustive list. By the way is there any more at the Isaac Penn, so.

I

What I'd, like.

A

Luther extends an artist John. We don't want to support it all on nightcore that a fair say.

C

As a button, Lexi does not really useful, like prams array, it's just clear replacement for most things in the network, so after accent.

H

Actually to the ones you cut.

I

All the people did mention, I kept slapping them. Number love can be implemented using buggy if the earth, but I don't think we wanted.

C

You don't think we should have them because away. I said so.

I

So there is no 46 api on the Nexus 4's stiffener I know that can increment caps lock and number lot. But people like on on the thread did mention that there can be some third-party it guys that we can depend upon that might give us the same thing might help us implement this, but honestly I'm not sure whether it's worth it so.

E

Honestly, there's no way to play a sound I think there is. Why don't you do that eat if I, just playing a sound you'll.

I

Actually, we doing commend the beat that doesn't take frequent indication. Why.

E

Don't we promote this, the.

I

Frequency in the direction, one like you, take a look at it, but I I believe this not good way to seems.

B

Like there's no easy way, although somebody commented about a third party library that would let us do it and.

A

The question is, how think we won't console tab? You and I mean visitor of going taking dependencies and more libraries just to an AP. I said like point: oh, three percent, uh no or three percent of people. Actually, you and then.

E

Now we don't want to do I I'm, just surprised, there's no very.

I

E

To do this, it's not that I think we should just keep searching now for body like this or sunblock esolutions.

A

So like, how did they do with fishing channel output?

A

Steven, you know, like I mean it seems like like I mean like bump in your buffer area, seems like something you would need to have to implement something like less, for example, in an efficient way. They don't have that.

K

A

As far as I'm aware, oh.

G

L

Mean their mind.

H

While I never looked early into the equation of.

D

Ascaris endorsers.

L

A

We hung windows even moved off. The area is not as fast as I would like it to be, because I tried to implement scrolling with it and it's still painfully slow, but but I mean, like you know, almost all my terminal sections when I havenít do output you less it's cold, super fast I, don't know how they do with them.

L

Other very male may well be support. I just don't know what it is.

I

A

Us the other sons of fine aight aight, said buffer size. We can support, set window position of the senior on. So what's our story for those moving forward, then like I mean, if I'm, targeting both Windows and Linux, how would I get those api's back then? We said we'd never supported.

C

Non incorp invoke like what's probably gonna, have to be tied to the particular show you and you're gonna have to call it native API us to do that kind of function of its level between walking areas. Yeah.

A

Do we know how shitty those are by the way like how hard is that a pretty straight, or does it like you 30 lines of thought you just so it's.

I

Not one like it's going to be one in were close I. It's not that so.

L

I

K

D

Its audience aren't.

C

At all that, like like person.

I

Was thinking about said, we know if he is that Sonny is, since we are exposing buffer and we are exposing the other things, but you to write a console like with all the scrolling mechanism in everything you would need be they face also at least on windows side. If you do not expose it, we are kind of giving them a half its 30 on windows.

I

We could throw platform not supported exception, at least make the windows side of things completely available, but it's one of those situations. It's not easy. I.

E

Will be fine with it I think we talked in the past that you know like one of our objectives is to make it easy for people to port existing code. It may be working from windows to windows, so you know it's an objective the API like if it was the first API that you know. Otherwise we have beautiful API this you know designed to because blood and now we are introducing us, you know first or it I would be more concerned, but this seems to be like yet another words which.

A

Some point: you don't work here, yeah.

E

Some of you no longer care so.

A

Can Steven? What are you thoughts in there, because you pushed pretty hard on not exposing API said, would always throw on the next right.

L

Certainly for the common ones, these are much less common I mean everything like if you look at some popular or not popular, but you look at various sample code out there that uses console these. This last bucket they're pretty rarely used the things about this are pretty commonly used, but other than some toy apps that you know try and play music using thread dot, sleep and beep like you know, and no one really uses that other than extremely complicated console. Apps that try and optimize you know, they're, not using Bob move buffer area.

L

As far as I'm aware things like mono don't implement these. At least you know if they do they're either throwing or no ops I be hesitant to expose something like caps, lock, number lock as a no op that returned all these false because then you know it'd be sort of lying. So if you were to expose that we want to throw I, don't know I I'm, it really depends on what our goals are. I guess.

L

If our goal is, if our primary goal is to enable people to port their apps from full framework decor clr, then we should expose them. If our primary goal is to allow people to write cross-platform apps, then we shouldn't, but.

E

I think we could both of these goals. I'm saying you know like the API is already like. If you on linux, you will have to be careful, so I don't think we it would make the lives of the linux develop developers much more difficult.

I

I was specifically talking about this thing buffer in the window. If the ice caps lock number long, beep, stokke, okay, I believe, because for the first week we they can at least you asleep, the initial one in forgot caps, lock a number lock, I, don't think it's a scenario that is, we noticed.

J

I

Like egg harbor study that net exposing oh yeah.

A

Just check the usage I mean the usage is very low, like it's like a point. Four percent on yeah said buffer size and it's the most commonly used. Everything else has point Oh something so I mean they are super rare I mean I'm, just I'm just wondering what all principal is I. Think in general, like I, would be in favor of saying unless it makes the API like it, creates a super common speed or failure for prostate developers. I would be in favor of keeping a PS.

A

If we know we can only support on one platform and just throw rather than tripling the contract for everybody, because I mean there are people that will not care about linux at all. At the question is, what's their story going to be on now? The question is these AP is so rare, like practically speaking, we're not really harming windows adoption because it's not very commonly used so I'm fine, either way, I mean a good way, I sensed it.

C

Was like, if one of our big premiere partners there about one percent that usually stay PS, how much work is it for them to actually implement? These are I think it would be quite a lot or somebody's gonna get right so I that would be lean, meat more to a favor, just exposing them, and this throwing on hot.

E

Spot but to me and to me, as I said to me, it's to some extent this, like a big jump from beautiful API. That has no words to an API that it's not beautiful for crown splat after that, it's like just keep, adding a DSN just create a nice. Do we have influence over documentation for this API is because it would be nice to add. You haven't really got have like a guide for linux developers that says hey if using console, api's. Here's how you check you know what support it was.

E

Not here's how you which IP is have problems is with the.

A

Short answer is that the dog story we are working on.

E

A

For don't air corps- and there are, there are plenty of thoughts on how to how to talk about this. In the context.

E

Or even blog post.

A

E

Fanabe, could you write a blog post for my clinics developers using console api's.

I

A

It just works all right, no Lucas, who wants to use the consolation.

C

I also think that by adding them, we open the doors for some lenexa spurs and some shells to be able to implement them, use them still to. Even in this context, and because of the open source we can, people can just provide their rooms.

A

Exactly so, I mean okay, so that means the fork. Please so should be. Basically a some people decide to take.

C

Those API sin and is that what I heard that's right I'm here we didn't I, didn't hear an answer for caps. Lock: number luck with your gonna, basically throw low on Mike's on those guys foster's.

I

I was thinking of not exposing them, but I cyanide.

A

Anything is it like they all like I, think caps, lock a number locker super low usage, I mean I, don't think I mean I am fine. How would I get that.

C

Information on windows, so if we don't expose capsule, what's that what's to do.

F

I have to like listen to all what subscribe to something in keep trying. That's actually a good point like I think, just like a function, you call to get the.

L

E

That's actually a good point. If, like you know windows, you could just like even be in bulk, but it's you know a simple translation from I: have a program running I'm trying to pour it. I don't I'll, sell it to the guy, maybe it's not just for linux, but in general for porting console, and it basically just says, keep up to this. One I think this reasonable solution.

I

All you need to do is the virtual key code for the caps lock and a lot of Industry call it a book.

C

If they're called, what's the signature yourself I'm not on the boat, exposing doesn't director the means, he would expose everything flat caps, lock, member. What.

A

About be prefer consideration, we will throw on that. One and supports are on all the vesicles. Instead.

E

Of our get across but yeah, okay, it.

I

Means we've pretty much thing about the whole console contract for.

E

This to an Argus consciousness, to publish which again, like one point we should consider is we are almost you know like- could almost have a great story for Windows developments. Basically say the AP ice are, as is yeah, except for those two where you have to pee poke. Maybe we just call or go all the way you.

C

Mean there's no, we are throwing on getters and other properties.

J

C

Don't want this, what I crashed my oh, my god, my differentiate was like. It feels weird for properties to be throwing the we already doing a brother's 02.

E

Is like as well and then the parking guide would be simpler for windows. It would be just words and for linux, here's how you deal with you know: they're, not support. You think yeah I, like.

C

That, personally, the arduous, when I think requires extra things outside a contract. Console controls off okay. But there's not be me about.

E

The other and also I do it. At least nobody like you, literally, don't care because you exactly like, if you have a call out this method, it's not work. It's gonna, just be nice officials correct my worst compile I'll just work on it, so only would actually be a social.

A

E

A

Does it mean we know one expose capsular number barber? Does it mean me, don't I think that's what really? Yes all right. Then, let's take that one. So.

I

J

A

J

Earlier, all right, so does the story when I follow across the book, because you.

I

Didn't have anything to make this also go.

C

See how now I ask you about that, but yeah it's going to be we're going to try to be as consistent, sparse or.

E

Expose as much a Piazza submissions, I also would say, like one thing that you know place in my opinion on this, one is that if there are n P is for quickly that you would normally use it in a library. So we want to promote multiple libraries and feeling like very wacky ideas from portability perspective in for libraries, it's not great he's like the eyes.

E

It's usually enough when you Parton up, you kind of you know, have have ability to test it for all the scenarios that you care about library, you kind of have to ensure that it's going to work, no matter how, in what context, is being oh, so it's much harder if the APS did you.

C

Call enough for today, we'd have a different conversation, we're talking about right line console.writeline, for example, we probably not exposed as opposed to throwing this because everyone it hit it. That's another thing: yeah I think.

A

Though I mean I think this is everything for console, I think.

I

Okay, so then maybe we.

A

Should use the remaining like time to actually talk about the principle we just talked about, which is the true, be ova, sport API as it becomes what everywhere I think there were a few juicing dimensions. One of them is how calmly is it like if everybody hits it and it's very easy to have a pit of failure, I think we should Iran the side of factoring it correctly and making clears on support everywhere.

A

If the API is small, like you know, very really being used, but it's trivial to pin woke, maybe like it's one of the two options I mean this goes back to your earlier argument. If the entire country was bought, it will, except for one API. Maybe it's rough.

A

Are we moving that one and then making it work everywhere, but for things like reflection, for example, if in North, if you would, if you have something, does that for specific and by removing it, you remove a whole chunk of API surface and that ki will also be in favor of factoring in Franklin moving it out, because all.

C

There's no point and there's one example: reflection I think we're going to go back and forth around, which is the binders. The finders is an interesting one. We would prefer not to have AP at all like, but it it's it's a common primer in a number of the APS, where you'd like to have just like this one stupid thing: that's always you always always pass it off for that parameter, but you have to have kind of the type in orders.

C

But this is interesting one because, couldn't you just add an overload, it doesn't I mean yeah, it's a new API and it's not where I'm really preparing a competitor like wants to be resource compatible. You plus, we took so good. I predicted, but.

A

That to me is like the question, because I mean in order. Let's say we would like to fill miner in order to make those overloads work we would have to do. Is you would basically dummy out a type just so that no below that everybody always passes now to seems.

E

A bit on the excessive side I would I would do what you know suggested just add new overloads that just don't take a binary Alicia for the parameters and move on for in the future. We have nice, API I, think we.

C

Can try that but I have a feeling that some cases that's not going to work because are already over also will conflict like, for example, if you have coded passes knowledge that all resolved to another API now you know you'll get confliction. We have to look at the only. We need to pump. Listen, it's not that you're gonna, notation, name yeah, but I, don't kind of defeat. Some of the purpose to know these are like. We should just change the primer or it's an object in like this. Let's think about the passing of the object.

C

E

Object: obj reserve no ability to express.

A

It in our contracts, it's this kind of change, yeah I, think that's that to me is like one of those things. I mean reflection is, as you said earlier, like full of warts already, like I, mean yeah I care a bit less about reflection, because already has so many other problems that that the binary thing doesn't even register.

A

Yet, on my I little things, like all the other things, we talked about the fact that binding sex you can use that you know most of our like flattening api's are going like is actually the thing we definitely need to fix. Yeah I know.

C

Almost other ones were you buying, quite yet binder. So I, like you, I think where I landed last time, it convince myself I'm just having a binder type, keep the tech with nothing on it. This kind of is a dummy type like we're. The xml schema to.

A

Be fair though it's actually not at common, because that was it was recently doing some reflection again, and it only happens when you want to specify the mining flanks. But in some cases there are many kids he actually don't have to, because the API really does the right thing. Sure. Yes,.

C

But any thought you knew specified body functions, you know people want to do you bind here comes in because I mean quietly. If you pass.

A

In the argument types and they match exactly it definite only diviner right and then the next thing is what you'd also don't really biting flex, because you literally specify the signature I mean like they can only be one of them. So the fact that it's public, private or whatever, like you, cannot you can check after after you've got the freakin object. Bag I mean you specify the thing you want to get. That's why it's a bit of a fishy argument to begin with, I need to pause, inviting flags yeah um alright. So that means all.

C

Right, you think you can have a guy review for the reflection next Tuesday.

I

Do we want it to the whole system? Reflection then know if you wanted to do thankies muscle, it's just a reflection. Yes,.

A

And you're talking about adding all this stuff back is that the I pair of you yeah, I mean what would be helpful, is just presenting what you have so far, and then we can use the remaining stuff to talk about what it is. If you want to achieve, because I think the the two things I think we said earlier, I'm sure that still the case was you basically won't expose everything we had. However, you want to preserve the types that means the api's wouldn't go back on type. They would go back on time.

I

A

It means like I, don't know how far we can get like I mean. The binder thing is one of those things, but the guy is there more of these. Api's did be if you promise a certain behavior that we don't want a promise moving forward like type get type, for example, had some of these issues right, I think.

I

You should have at least one I can't even fill not sure.

C

If you're going to focus on one air, you look at the type and type in four-part I forget what the other ones for now. Yeah I.

I

Think it's about of these when you don't yeah yeah I.

A

Mean even if we can't expose everything, I think if we just get. You know the typical get message get message get by a get: get member bubba blob of the binding sites that will probably by itself solve like eighty five percent of the.

C

Issues anything so I mean we we have, you stated for those sooner. We can figure out which one server they're hitting on tight the ship yeah.

I

I think I'm a contract perspective. It may be easier to make the call I do not have any idea of how the implementation is like which father figures in Lake grunting, which father's years so those boundaries label.

C

Magician well, I, don't think it's kind of matter is where are you except for an M, so in case what I think most of the stuff on into as a rapper sooner thanks for the.

A

Other thing that comes to mind here is the BCCI want to preserve the type split. What are we doing? All-Star pcl? Aren't we basically saying there is no type split, both side, PCOS, there's a well.

C

Depends on what, what's which platform you look? Michael? Yes, but.

A

Let's say a target like I, don't know profile like one of the old professor, so.

C

If you have a southward worry, it doesn't have to split. That's correct, yes, missu preserve think we can still run those and dominated all right. um What do we most of them? Not all so, even even there's words, there can't be nice, but it came to I suppose typekit.

G

Member of planting.

A

C

And we are fine with supporting that fiber I, don't know. If we were like right now, I, don't we have. We have some magic with an aisle transformation, phaser down the native right. Now we start talking about CLI party, neither and that doesn't exist. I, don't know how we're going to do if we, if we can even do it at all, I will be in favor of killing I've been trying to do that. You know I pushed pretty hard to get a more than there's enough ya know it's.

A

Hard lash back.

A

Alright, so that means I, think I got everything out. The meaning I think you've got everything out of it. I took some notes, um the guidelines that will probably add to the porting guy. We just talked about, um and then that's pretty much. It everybody's unblocked great thanks, folks, online and sorry for not taking all the questions, because I didn't see them earlier.