.Net Foundation Design Reviews, 15 Jan 2016

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From YouTube: .NET Core Design Reviews: Finalization during shutdown

Description

We're looking into how finalization during shutdown will work for .NET Core.

* https://github.com/dotnet/corefx/issues/5205

A

A

A

B

Proposal for the proposal- I'm not finished so the year the behavior you are seeing today, it's like. If you have complex in a publication, then the shutdown is prone to either crashes or deadlocks. Okay,.

C

B

Like if you felt like any clutter up like say, visual studio, they basically have to go out of their way to make sure that there are no finally just running during shutdown because they do they get me scratch assorted oxide. So, in the.

C

Past we kind of try to run by the lasers well finding what we designed this feature, because we wanted to run them at all coughs and the reason for it was governmental resources that were super super scarce like you could run out of you know they were like on Windows 95 /, like 64 candles or files, or something I'm not a few members. Now it seems like almost all responses that we guard. They are not. You know like we still have finalizes, but it's more of a performance of imitation.

C

It's not like there's a limit on. You know rolling the total number of candles in mt all.

B

Right, that's true, but you know, but the finalizer do today like I'm time to shut down right. They really make sure that you don't have and negative press or.

C

Sticks, no, no, no I, understand that like either. If the process is not shutting down, we need to learn from the license key codes. Yeah. We members were therefore I'm saying in the past. Even when the process was shutting down, we will try to run finalizes because we wanted to close some of the system-wide resources like candles. That may not be closed immediately. Correct.

B

My don't think so, I think even on windows 95, when you shut down the process like what the repulse unit open, they always kind of total it up. I thought why.

C

Were we running them.

B

Producing state involved, yes,.

A

C

Gave me the one.

D

Thing is president.

A

B

The other thing is because it was the design in early java, and I think we just like said you know. Okay, look like sounds resemble each. If you do the same thing,.

C

I thought there was something about like you know: there are some so even today there are some resources like, for example, socket forest.

C

You know, even if the classics exits, the socket will be alive for something the world would be kind of considered open for some time at then you make another class is making problem reopening it. I thought that.

B

Like in the past weekend, a lot of crumbs, oh I, couldn't.

C

Receive those things no exes.

B

I excited classic sockets database connections. If you have terminated the system, then we design could clean up the car eventually, but it might get about that and.

C

I'm asking because I like the idea of basically like you said in there, I was reading this. You know thread and you said well, maybe we should just fix it either on time right and like not on finalizar, said shut down, but I wonder whether we care about some of these resources that still may be were finalizing because they persist.

B

C

Oh so jealous I'm being.

B

A big beautiful people hey mr. d, no explicit, shut down boom, then yep. You know.

C

Kids, do it is. It will have two different final answers. We will have the ones that do round it shut.

B

Down than those who don't know busy, we do today say if you get, there is something you want to run a chat down this out and activate to do it. Just for the shut up, I see.

C

You got to shut down better than me with my voice, but that doesn't cut yeah.

A

Unless you can't read them, while the outputs can use the colonel and lots of finalising run, can use the object in car so can't just arbitrarily run. Finally, a couple first visit unload event you can from that cuz agnostic of what it's well. It's.

C

Up to the user, what they want to do there, but I mean 11 kind of issue with you know, come to the event. Is you can start executing rd very cold and don't know how to write it? You were on to yet another set of problems that we already solved with a safe handles. You know they basically look at the problem that people who'd run. You know catechol that he finalizes. So then we created safe handles something about them, which is like it's almost declarative.

C

We will just run it for you and you know that it's you can. If we hook up an event, you can get like right to the concept, but whatever they want.

E

Yeah, which I'm chosen to Google do.

F

C

Maybe you know like I wonder whether I don't bet you want to finalize it about you not even worried, like.

B

Basically, cut some well we'd have to build fighters like the community vehicle. Finally, that since I can't you oh yeah, have you love with something here and but Kelly I know I'ma chubhan better than talking about great.

A

He'll say: come over.

B

How does it gamekeepers see it would save inlays it's like handle to make the dresser cystogram and the problem solving is that when multiple people are accessing that company resource d, the ref count is always incremented and it's like interrogative NFL contract and then, whenever their drops to zero, the unmixed resources speak.

C

B

C

Addition is not only the record me. The main value is that the finalizer of silk can do simple. He just goes close and doesn't like there's no like complicated gold, so it just that's. Why do you vote to close friendly and safe campus? Has one pube? That is a hand, that's it. So it's.

B

Reliable doesn't have just one Fielding's to handle it ain't taking at the f-bomb okay,.

C

Yeah I'm saying like there's no other things that it disposes of geographical.

D

C

Suspect, there's not a complicated code is just stores the handle calls close and you, when you get to, which is much more reliable than cutting open-ended.

A

Open coffee, you know finalize method, but these handles are still things that all that the OS will take care of the fascist institution host.

C

Of them yeah most of it, but I wanted that's what I was started with, like I still think there are few research most process shut down, we'll just clean. There are few that you know it won't and ie I would like to have this assumption. If you go with the route of okay round and as many finalizes is shut down, what is the solution for these resources that should be cleaned up each other?

C

So so, and you know, one proposal is like just let equal open codes, some, you know, cuz, you know, shut down started event. The thing is: if they are not careful and they don't come it correctly, they can be. You know back to the original issue that we try to solve with segment.

C

F

Does this compare with full family I mean this is only for Salon and Cornelia.

B

Garden, full sidewall, Kiev, abdominal all dependents, yeah.

F

But as far as the fan systematics go like they're different from we would do them for courses are equity. The wreck Oh.

B

D

What we do on this stuff.

B

Today, I tried to but I'm the finalizer.

D

B

And because of if there are gaseous area, she kind of don't turn all of them if they are dead. Log V F, like 40 seconds limit on okay, doesn't bring in finalized in 40 seconds and there's a.

D

B

We can arrive.

B

Thank you e mutually run into the same thing course. You are to bring coachella, be positive, the I'll be very kind, so we typically happen. Biking uh no brakes by the time. I was causing problem on like form except the punks and eat super. So.

B

C

C

Don't run to normal franchisors foreground the filter.

B

10 people, but that would mean we need to bring back the 3-2 final answers. Two hours of yoga.

B

C

Could we basically special cases just sacred like do.

D

C

And ruin karemma dope, cursor on special case sick, and we only around SI and refined oils.

C

So if you get one of those resources like a socket there or something you just start is a penguin, that's the way to run it a shot of otherwise nagaraju. Like a second question, it's basically has to be easy. Wiz! Oh, you know, windows and ruin other clothes. I do the clothes can do has to work, for it does.

F

It that's what you can override that, I'm not sure. I think we have special derivatives at any care. What validate? What constitutes the handle to be valid or invalid, but I think they do is you can still override it and call another method. Then.

E

F

Is closed handle, but it can be.

B

Cutting out EDI, you know you can do that. The role of a judge, so the farm will flow with the same handles is that you can get or do anything in this thinking back I survived the other side. Handles could have been already find out on a side button.

C

Go in quick, but it just makes the schedule and call scope scandal on it, but you shouldn't actually the point of sale can do. Is you should be doing other respects? Well.

B

That's under like is like people what people want to do in the shadow, a man just like a but I done. It.

B

Goes in database qualities also not like you know, like focus on how it works. Kind of okay, send dislike bunch of bytes to this again, and you know to make this considerate head day in there if they were to be able to override the safe handle.

C

And do whatever they want to sort of the same problem. Yeah I would not. If we have this feature- and we probably can't because we had like a hierarchy of this same random, I will just have like what you know. One sec, hello. You cannot do anything with it. You just pass it. You know and be point there and it cost close handle on it. That's it. If you have more complexity, maybe hook up today, you know the deep end did.

F

You mention I, mean I, think your example with blemishes go on, because people probably misuse fine lasers today to do is edit these kind of things right. So this is not a cleanup per se. Just this is cooler always want to run right, and then you know, and then you found us is to read to represent those semantics, but for resource clean everything. Safe friends is just one example and other examples, maybe in a free memory or whatever or like we said in global state that you know you can't.

C

Allow Minister doesn't know.

F

Won't feel this I'm saying I mean if you generalize resources, you could imagine like you shared. You know that same you texted. You have to believe right like if you process dies, maybe windows does it for you, but there's some, probably some cases where windows can clean up the thing for you. That's why I asked, but.

C

I, don't think.

E

B

F

Think safe n was the only example of that, because that's literally just.

B

Validates what nobody's saying it's like that people would have to wrap all these guys and save my life. The way the question whether you saying maybe.

C

Some of them are not represent. Some of these resources are not represented by handles yeah, but I will say give me an example of those, because the only one that I know today that has this problem just sockets.

C

What say you want to do it apart or you want to. Let's.

F

C

F

Is so you mean you.

C

Want to delete the file? Well, you probably yeah, or you want to write Santa mcclure street reform as well.

F

Yep, penning landlady I think.

C

You can kind of many of these scenarios I'm not saying that the solution is perfect, but many of these scenarios you can well, you know let someone start getting discovered. The party planner probably know you play like. There are some solutions to it: I sockets, there's little I, don't know what that is ocean like if you don't close the socket handle- and you know your process dies- doesn't cause it can. Do you restart the same thing? You make her problems. There is a way to open. You know stock, except that you don't have a problem.

C

Sorry, now that embraces you. Basically, your process restarts open automatically and now can I don't get this.

F

But let's go back to the original Mon you you're not seeing it on 100s of shut down right all you're saying, is you do a best effort right now? That's what we do currently the proposal is to not run to.

C

Not run them at all, let's show them.

E

Not about it when you see that's especially our office.

D

Which is just a record.

B

By the way you're like in Java, they had the same program, but they did take it exactly what Yara Sofia like years ago busy they said. Okay, nine shut, I, know I, so Chum now who's like just prone to these 10 lakhs of crashes. So just stop.

D

Doing that and just.

B

Somebody wants to clean up, a shutdown is shut up.

D

B

C

B

C

You you have much more context. Hear me. The shutdown event also is not super convenient for libraries, because, let's say a bit library to seduce suckers, I kind of you know. I cannot ensure that I will stay reliable in the light of process. Shutting down and restarting.

B

Because I don't know but she'll be.

C

B

Like, like look closing all the circuits have the hard way whatever responsibility of this affects like that. Should.

C

It be irresponsibility well I'm, saying like let's say the process shuts down. My code is left. You know like executing the library code like who who will.

F

Close to something that's, what are you saying? I mean it's a responsibility of whether used library to call the right message for the l.

B

Now know is that the other way around it's like you know it's like you know it's the same thing as you have. If you have a line, another.

D

May provide.

B

The right it's like you, don't want kind of every user of the database provided to say. Okay today is disliked special thing to help, but.

C

That's exactly what I'm saying finalize it like a you know say: can do I'm using sockets. I will start the candles in say can do and then you know that anthem takes care of it when the door shuts down, and my code is not running right. So.

B

You have the only other thing is it is instead of like the event. You would like to open have like some special type of object that there's like special type of finalizer, dense the rounds.

F

But how about that run then, which is how would you write that dead finalizer if we say we're not running them on.

B

Shutdown, well, we know it's like, instead of like having seven right there on time to have condition if the type of object is like special. I signal that dance on sat down and then you and I are other finalizes, which is like oh yeah, so basically ready.

C

Anyway, I'm saying it: it's.

B

Out the president, then you can have a mature, which one is kind of better I. Think I kind of you know specializing how finalizes ran for one particular type of object, that's kind of fun, it's a bit of bugs. You know the the event handler if.

C

It's a reusable library or it would have to do- is every single candle that it turns out, but you know it will be to recording some table. Then it would have to have some policy for proving that there book and like finalizar, know.

E

The policy forget.

B

During the day, but it simple just like and the final I said for the handle pants just ring with from the day Bonnie, but.

C

If we can find out as a social, social I'd say if we didn't respond, the risers the ground, let's shut down, that.

A

Would be like now, final I serve so I.

C

Started right at it.

A

I see finally I'll remove it and you're anybody else like I agree. It's not still. You will catch, look at a table, a detective Chuck Bass again mr. loop and don't have.

C

To be weaker friends at home, I.

A

Think the problem with having a special kind of type of the finalizer is that object itself will have undefined state by the time the finalizer runs. If it's not dead, already say they do so they would have to write the finalized. Your code, such that I mean they better hope that you can focus no I'm talking about.

A

If we have a special type, oh yeah, they would have to treat the finalizer code differently from the moral final idea and right there, so it's not to the bank and they can't making assumptions about the state of the object. Yeah it'll be our impact. The event Coogler.

C

Itself, you know either know: what's this stage, yeah.

B

Yeah but it's like.

C

Ladies abilities event: handlers.

G

C

B

Right by a rocket scientist side, it's like you can done sounds like every other guy cool but ice finalized. There's two bike yeah, so everybody who writes something with sockets now I think it should be responsibility. If there is this problem in subjects, it should be responsibility. Notice of it live right now, in a properly during shutdown on tight loop, probably shut down.

F

Is it fair to say that reliably? You can really only call basically native code right, because if you say you can really learn the object, I mean, if you take like you, know the father, leed AP I wouldn't really be able to use our weight guys to do.

B

You should be able to write. That's the point today in finalizes. You cannot because of you cannot know, but.

B

Both other parts shut down right, for example, you cannot have console.writeline and final is it so maybe comes almost already final outside yeah. But if you, if you say okay, you know like doing this unload event like everything is still up and running only those bars that think we're a special shut down. I ab the ones that can be cleaned up right, no.

F

You're knocked over the case. Where subscribe to the event right, I mean what you just said. Is we have the special object, the code that I can run?

F

There is very limited what it can do, what I'm saying and that coda probably can use our IPOs right, so if we would serve I wanted, for example, if I want to have the semantics that- and you know, I need to clean up some files right in my mind, I want to make sure this one's doing, shut down so I derived from the special object in the in that method. I probably can't use our final hour oflf system api's to get the far right because they may have done something similar right well,.

B

A

Sense so I was planning on raising the event before things actually start to clean up like I seasons,.

F

Console wouldn't.

A

Be finalized, it would still be alive and we're not yet finalized.

F

And shut down, so you can still use it. I see what you're saying, because we don't run finalizes. You actually have more objects that are likely to be knotted at that stat. Essentially yeah. You think about.

B

It as at the end of the method you busy just there's like implicit call, but it's like their excess now right.

E

And it wouldn't be bad I think that would be doable.

C

Well, but we still have to have those finalizes I see they would we would so. Libraries will still have to look at a table and we have two drugs handles that they can dive in a.

B

It gives out the special handles that absolutely acquire, and it's great it's not great, but.

F

What would we have that, if you would have that special object? Why would you not just arrived from that kind because then the table is maintained, Road, which special, like that conceivable object. That would make sure it will always run you.

C

Mean we're like a critical idolized.

F

C

F

If you have a tiny, don't have a problem, that's I'm, saying so I mean that it seems not like a bad. If we.

C

Do more, basically, we do any band for, like you know, eating fire paths and whatnot cemetery whenever.

F

We even do anything.

C

Yep and then we just found those critical final answers and they have to. We may even like knock out a fighter. I, don't know what we want to call it. We create a type. You know the same can do that just galls cross hand. So the problem of the.

A

Critical finalizer is so, are you saying we should be able to do anything, but just at night or.

C

Just another, it's basically just crossing I think it would sort it. You know the problems that I know it all I mean we are not saying. Maybe there are more but I'm just saying it wouldn't solve at five weeks now no over but find you finally to you just drop anything.

C

So you would have to remove the right technically.

F

And be going when you summon together, but yeah.

C

Because, like file is not like libraries, maybe libraries create files, but.

F

So why the Avengers is proposed, the semi load context or unload correct? Is this a be available and estimator sending as we didn't for the similar context to desktop so that's about? Would it be on desktop? I would have to do something differently. Correct I would.

D

Have to subscribe to F domain.

F

And load whatever yeah, that's the thing. I don't like honestly for libraries now, because it means that vitamin.

B

But tastes like strong desire to be a clinical but good or bad thing for us and gold context for that stuff. There.

F

Isn't is not there.

B

There is strong desire to do it. Yeah.

F

Okay, the lane your neck is at negative days. If there is a signal api, I can use across all our 1 x and can subscribe to the shutdown. Essentially that's fine, but if I went off to say all you want to subscribe to shut down one all. You have to know what you're running that that seems my.

H

Fears, fortunately, we're taking valid, which people which in many cases would have nominal, did run like a using statement and moving it to this API, so the equivalent appdomain like process exit or process unload all of the a Clemente handlers like that is mean number one source of problems in our unit test framework right now, because the bcl has bugs that cost to throw exceptions like WTF, estabas ECL has bugs and they all look on to F domain unload and they all throw exceptions and they take down our unit test process and there is literally zero recourse for us.

H

We have to. We have dramatically changed the way our test run, to avoid picea bugs because we can't stop it from crashing. Why.

C

Do you- and this is just around it- that have the codes welcome so.

H

You view is Cassius you find out which called which car crashes it's captivating. The event that is raised, that a nap domain is unloaded via process exit or explicit from low throws an exception. Oh, but why does probe insertion gives their.

C

Bugs no bugs in what dcl and thank you is.

H

This about calling a double give because WPF responds to a premium load, because everyone's.

B

To do anything I knows a.

H

Hooked up to so.

B

They are one of those time that I do D. Ecstasy I am.

D

B

H

When we find bugs and code that happened with using, we can try catch it and life can move on. But if more people move to this, it will leave more bugs that are code. Literally it's like a test of run. Everything is done completely. Ok, so a lace of Wiggles.

C

Having these crimes, we could solve this problem by instead of having an event having like a way to basically give your cleanup provided. Well, it.

B

Doesn't matter so much as it seems like a different amount of realize that people want to run code during shutdown right and they either subscribe to unload event or they create, like final check, that they stick finalize, it will check that they stick into static variable.

C

B

Finalize around right, yeah.

C

I'm saying that if we basically told them it, so why does you know provide a call back, we're gonna call it instead of them creating the event handler, then we can call the provider spirit, library, and you know we can actually catch exceptions in logan that by that's kind of you, but.

B

That's it goes against what we have been. This is kind of the policy that we have in crv, on, where you are catching exceptions that we didn't know why they came from right, and he found that it doesn't bother weeks of like when you catch exception to the.

C

User can do whatever they want their units. This framework would actually use the event and just execute on those countries they can catch or they can not catch whatever. They want to do.

B

Okay and make a champion said again, then they get that look and how it, because I get a setback. Pg&Amp;E shut down the hand of the heavenly I.

C

B

Sure that those things just don't run this winter one time.

C

They come back, III, don't know I'm just you know, I'm not saying it's a either well thought through I'm, just almost rain starting what to do with it, but isn't it.

H

Catches, the process that we use here too, so here's the problem, like we literally have wasted weeks on vcl, bugs that we can't fix. Well, you like email, the X, you have to talk to the exit maintainer we've had to. How can I fix the fact that, when w pet shuts down it decides it's hilarious to go through and query windows handles without try catching stuff?

H

How can I fix that all.

A

H

Use is insert reflect, insert a dll that handled appdomain, unload earlier reflex into WPF and clears all their tables for them so that they won't screw me. Where did you let the gift you know yeah? Where do we? Let them know that, like we'll get a fix in five years, like you know, so it's very if.

G

H

Anything be 0 that that's not, we would file them on and we'll get that fixed.

G

In two years, BBC, oh yeah, the one full trailer on what about two years now, yeah, exactly I, mean I, mean jelly speaking.

F

The question is, can we I mean to me the discussion is almost moved because you can never really liked in.

D

Any sort of orchestration.

F

System, if some component throws there's limited things, you can do right, I mean in general. The question is: isn't very likely the way to use a designer. It's very likely that people will accidentally do the wrong thing right and I. Think that is probably true if you're undoing shut down and you have to assume other things already did their cleanup I mean that's almost also a given.

F

So the question to me is almost like what you know, given that the world is terrible like what is the least terrible thing we can do it in order not to screw with people too much, but.

A

The other thing, too, is: what do we do with your bird to catch exceptions? How do we do we report it move on or do they.

B

Like asian guys have changes back video right, if you she liked it, he met on this button before and didn't walk right, because.

H

From a java doesn't.

F

It as a driver is a level.

H

Code, it's a fundamental necessity. In implication. Yes, yes, sorry.

C

That's what I was saying: we changed this api, such that it's not an event that you know, runtime execute these things and people who can carve, but rather people who give your cold baths and then the application code calls them.

F

To shut down but then.

C

F

Every application code in the world has to subscribe to event and say for each handler executed, which now means well, what's likelihood of people's coming with that and not doing it. 100 200 for sockets and.

C

So another modification by default we could just call them and then let people over and the behavior and catch exceptions for something else. But I think that wouldn't get here. Yeah.

F

Although at some point the question so many folks do, you have because I never laid to see any snakes and maybe at some points just well you just let them have to let the process die.

F

Another option is, if there's a list of handlers, you could potentially like clean.

C

Them so if we worry about the time to fix it, well, even if we added this new API know and those handlers that you would have to provide, when will wef provide those instead of here to deliver late, they actually need to care about.

H

The specific problem WTF is trying to solve. Is they subclass a lot of windows and basically make some class a lot of windows with delegate call backs in the managed code and when a nap, the main unloved you're essentially unloading the dll that facts that wind proc, subclassing and so they're, trying to unregister all there and knocks on the way down which I guess? If we have a use, this only little context, I guess no! It's like I think that's about something's going to up domain amo, and it's that same thing but does impose it.

H

E

Does physically.

H

When we get rid when an assembly load context unload it does physically unload the DLLs behind it. Well, it's different because they well it's different, because they today they use statics to basically partition their handles that they've done, and that gives them. Basically, when they're unloading, they just walk through there static list and undo things if, with a silly load context, they have to partition by simply load context and handle, since, after my f domains, kind of give them free partitioning because there's a static crackling up, but they have to change a little bit.

H

But today their code is very just ambien. Just relies on the get out my mind but anyway, but.

A

Static SAR still local to the assembly right.

B

But when you're unloaded, I, but very saying like so so just to be good today, assemble all context isn't kind of a modem. So we didn't build that feature a track right and once we find time to build it like it won't be the case that you know we take like random code out there and it's like supports automatic level, and especially it is helpful, like you go that s, this manage- Internet's all right.

B

So is right, but you know what exam pics of G assembly context unloading like in the mid flight is Delta C delay people implement. This is just like assembled context, unknown just forward to after Miami.

B

So I prevents that after my normal escalade or we apply it to divide into.

A

Three min forward to after minimal.

C

B

So, to up to my house is still that so it's kind of the most convenient implementation mean on desktop once both of them are available after main and some little context. So after Miami, it's compiled in due course he'll I, just not into public service Oh.

F

It's interesting thing: I mean I, think arish people would take a look at them because I mean I. Think the semantics are not epic but then the same time. They never really epic poet sorts. It's not like. We are making it. This is really substantially worse, but it's very hard for me to judge what the impact on the ecosystem will be. If that's a new behavior like I, don't I, always you don't know it may be that pretty much no other libraries are affected.

F

It may be that some of the libraries are affected and therefore very trivially fix. Some of them may just miss use the feature, but um so it's as hard for me to make a statement on you know what will happen if you do this in tonic. For, on the other hand, though, if you want to change it, I mean that's the time when amazing codes, we should be one so much much harder to change that.

E

Well, oh yeah, sure, I, think I'm. You could even over the state.

C

Or protein design of this event, all.

E

Right, I think that's being edited belief.

A

Or any intercourse it yeah, yeah and.

C

You know we just write some guidance they're people too careful.

F

And just means islands until we have similar condition desk, so there is no formulate to actually that you would have to.

B

Do it the early sort of yeah, yeah.

F

And you could still do public reflection.

C

Never published or get you far enough, I mean.

F

C

To make sure, in addition, so we will have the event. In addition, we will do the safe and I mean you know one of those not extensible just close closer, then zoom.

F

On options, you could do it states right, we could say for now. We don't have it and see what happens and if we see we needed, we can still edit I. Don't know I mean it seems. The question is also: what's the desire to type? Is it okay to just special case a panel to we need a general-purpose time you can derive from I, don't know.

C

General purpose has.

F

All the problems.

C

In a jet, you know, like opens the door introducing back problems me. The value of like having a girls say so is that it is safe. You give it an equal to be called because you know don't handle, that's all it does.

C

And then you don't have to cook up the events. You don't have to have a table, a grades that want to flow 10 goals. You don't have to look like happy. I met the day I, but.

B

B

So one thing it depends on is that.

B

Also, if we will behave.

B

So we will still need to run kind of the food GC getting shut down. What.

A

If we don't do it with final items, but rather just register providing here to register sick handles and we'll develop, it'll take that data. Do a movie night well, I said except the safe handle itself, wouldn't have to track its own instance, as it could track all of its instances and handle the unload event to clear the month. Busy.

B

I'm saying commodity easily build a week and then take a look. Yep barb keep the oppressive handle very easy.

F

By the way, even if the scripture kiss FM that doesn't buy your much, I can still arrive from it and override this boat and do whatever I want.

C

I'm saying we could add a type with what are you kind of do it.

F

Sure what are you saying like if we, if we see be just special k, safe and I'm, saying that wouldn't be enough? You would have to do image, introduce a new type that you literally cannot change.

C

We already yes.

B

C

Csc, so we cannot see you this pose boom I, don't.

F

Think we can because already exposes virtual.

F

Any other questions like how much do we care right, I mean I call discover, would that be right? Maybe it's okay for the five people that really really needed and really know what they're doing well.

C

It may be fact it may be. Actually just you know, like our teams, it doesn't change the content. You.

F

Can hang yourself yet and that.

C

If we don't have this feature, we have to keep a table table have to manage it through it. Basically, and therefore we have to you know increment analyzers from these things finalized on the table and then hook up this event and, what's still left peanut in there, that's a lot of ugly and unreal. I phone call.

F

That's true, but at the same time like I mean doesn't matter, but the runtime provides our ask because I mean I, guess the code is more or less morally equivalent right, so the so. The complexity is more or less there like whether you expose it there or there doesn't really know.

C

Because the runtime is, he said, 'can special case.

B

Discs and rules, but now it's kind of the darling yeah, but how things ended on time to a one thing is that when solicited be today, the ugly bug you about shutdown is that VLAN fuji see during shutdown. Just two photon is finalized ogc and getting challenged. Just like based off cycle cycle, yeah come the thing is going to be shot anyway. So why do you want to collect all the garbage sheriff it up?

B

So we want me to come still come to put fuji, see Daniel, go through the file path or finalize above objects that the TC finds you know, I'm the finalizer on the special one signal all the other ones.

B

You know what, if like some of these guys, you know Craig's like more of these special finite elements. Are we going to run the keys in a loop right like y'all? Doing today just makes a little come to the fore small phrenology then again, just liked it to keep somebody screws out how to clear this grow within the we are ghosts method they can do in you the little nose, there's no clothes methods that they can. Do you, but whatever.

A

C

A

There's a background thread: that's constantly allocating reasonings and then somebody calls environment, director, yeah the background throats still growing and creating so.

C

The littles the shot, so we are now executing shut down. You have been granted strong again and there can be God. Ok me yeah, really.

B

Become today we don't be, they say, stop don't background feds whenever they are and you reckon that they can be involved, they can behold, it works and yeah it that happens to shut down, get stuck, and you on coursey I deadlox infinitely on disk loading themselves up to 40 seconds.

C

Yeah shot on seems to be hard.

E

Sorry, I I think we have up here over.

C

The limit I, imagine that who said we shut down all the threads and how you can check out on the deck where you said that you shall download.

B

It is anyway Faldo, as does it for me once like differences, is about to be killed right, but as long as anything in the process is running, the background, threads are still there right. We.

A

Do the thread of work thing for the.

B

Board exception to avoid friends, know that we be just like what we do today. I'd shut down, we just stopped. It says whenever they are exactly so, we would still do it. We say.

C

I know they didn't point up.

B

Daisies, that's one of the sources of a liability. So when you stop the test, whenever they are, they are holding clocks and all sorts of things like.

C

Who cares because the only count after that that we will execute, we will take those say friend, rules and called close control on each of those in pointers? That's all we will do.

B

C

Bail by the site, but.

B

If, in your save handle recap your clothes cosmetic arsenal, you want to take lot to do something. No, you cannot operate the clothes. You don't do it. We don't do anything, but it's like I can understand. Like the big d teen ghost's handle method for elle SE han, like it's like yup user-provided. No, no, no, it's not user provided grow.

C

That's what I'm saying when I they're building time, the only thing that it does it comes close, can do on the lead pointer. This is a here and what is the clothes hamper, but let us the pros.

B

Handle come from from like soccer and who.

C

Who said that is.

B

Like good, but it would mean it's likes, the circuit library whoo-hoo implements it right. The.

F

Thing the crystal is proposing is.

B

D

F

New tribe no ignore safe and let's say you have a new time: uh-huh the.

D

Only thing that this time does.

F

Is it gets a handle and everybody's they'll handle it's important? Okay in pointer, yeah and.

B

Then say the appendix.

F

Our specific so on Windows, you would always cause close. No, but that's.

I

Not right I mean the odds. Point is closed. Handle isn't always the right answer for an arbitrary and pointers where it.

B

Goes and looks like that. I danced for like 25 times on windows, but the UNIX you don't. You have 25 come on handled, I'm, saying yeah. So.

C

The these sockets we could solve with growth and regret. No, that wasn't.

I

So much but it's not even necessarily handle like what about.

D

Some native memory that was allocated and the address according.

A

I

C

I

C

We I'm saying we don't ever travel to fight I assume we don't have a problem with memories, because when the process shuts down, nobody cares about the memory. There are always reclaims the memory data processor allocated and that's also not. My point is.

I

There are many diff, many different things beyond just a handle that works with closehandle and.

B

Then the handler kinda magic, OS headlights like bingo specific concept, I so windows, it's big monolithic, guys that, like ex post everything it's like, oh my can look right on unix-like. You don't have this kind of thing. No.

F

The sockets also concur goes no, but they detect apothic well, I. Think what you're saying is you have.

B

F

Of handles right and you can close various different kinds of friends by the same clothes handler method. Unix doesn't have to live specially methods for you, those because you cannot.

B

And even our windows, if you want to close like connection to a database, that's not the end. It's like something like a device provided in EG. I I.

F

Mean if we I mean I think let's say we can solve this problem generally, but we, but we could say that if you take our safe handle hierarchy right I mean you could imagine that there's different kinds of safe and derivatives that basically do the more equivalent of clothes and fold over their corresponding handle typist. Is it.

D

Technically, open-ended.

F

An arbitrary user code- yes, but is this very likely to do as complicated as tough as general upon others do today? Probably pond like? If we say there is a general purpose handle for this library, then you know so be it don't you know that that's your people must use that feature.

F

But if you say we have a special case, safe channels and the derivatives, we only run those and if you up yet you up, but you know you shouldn't up and we should, when somebody says audience a soccer player, but we should tell people please displease derive from this time. Do the closing only like for this particular motive resource? Don't try to do. I betrayed managed code operations. There don't do any other crazy to just do that. Would that not go as a okay?

F

That's like ninety-nine percent of the way, because you probably don't have deaf dog issues. You probably don't have you know, I won't a betrayal object. Grass I located along the way kind of issues like I mean they would probably get like very close to everyone. You be so.

A

You're suggesting an object with the finalizer, but they can override and do whatever I.

F

Mean it's cuz, I, say.

C

We could just say it's a safe handling, all its derivatives, no I would even start with it's. The same kind good for you know socket handle, because, honestly, the only the only resource I can think of where it will be very difficult to deal with with shutdown and restart over process is basically so consider no.

B

C

Connections are the handling it.

B

Okay, other guy doing so, we think of its connections. It.

F

Something I wanna see think if you, which you make it a general feature, I think it's a bit more resilient to changes. I, wouldn't special k. Let.

B

You know did you, you know that you can have this special operated but I'm spy like this. It's kind of sounds simple filmed outside, but the new look and I'm consequences of that they are like super ugly right. It's a problem.

E

Being that you busy.

B

Now you know to GC busy knows about his life. I, don't know framework back right, no.

F

I buy that and it's just the questions. What's better I guess like what what has a higher chance of not being unreliable, I think.

A

It's awkward to have an object that has a special kind of fine water surface. Think it's hard to understand that difference, a normal objects when Liza versus the subjects. When was it, you have to write them very differently. You have to be very careful careful about the state of the object, a groove you.

F

On principle, I would say the difference here is that if you would really use safe, it's kind of the guidance we give. People today would say like if you have a native handle, don't write your own finalizer, just just hold on to a safe handle and use that one if there is no safe handle that you can use, create your own but but isolated to this time. So it's kind.

D

F

With what we tell people but I'm not sure he will actually follow that today, so on so I.

E

Also, don't think many people might.

F

Find us today either. I think there was way more popular internet was adopted you earlier because they came with it. You know native cheapest, plus style attitude, and they want to jet instructors. So.

A

What if this is the infrastructure that this shutdown cleanup stuff it's based on and safe handle is one type that handles the details for you, human.

F

A

F

The manage side as the abstraction rather than Durrant, I'm sorry yeah, as I said I I, wouldn't be fundamentally opposed to that because I mean yeah. It is probably ugly code but, as yam pointed out, I think you know you just shift the complexity, you can either say be purely handle and manage. We have maintained or or or thing we you can.

C

E

C

Than me there, so you know like if I the library I hook up to this event handler and I have a guarantee that we will execute it in yet. But people start training they meant to learn like the first one throws.

C

Exceptions like mine is not the next game, so it's been a long process for officer crash exactly so maybe you know if we basically make it like Perry library, it's not the knee bent fender or it's a chain that we directly to execute everyone and ever know in the trained, and maybe it's like, we've got it. Maybe it's a basically manage called equivalent. You have to implement that.

C

We say little this thing and shark normal finalized it, but against the library to it we could do it basically managed code in a signal, but I think we would need this. This a change slightly such that it's not just an event handler that you know first for now, but better. You know you have this symbol.

B

On they finalized there's today, I decide and finally chose the process. Addictions right right right. It's like penny is like I've, known my exception in general, I and simpler casts. If you throw an exception background.

A

Tasks they could bring down I.

F

Mean the question is: if we, if we, if you would say we use, we use safe, handle or something like that, and we maintain our own managed library implementation for guaranteed clean up right. The thing that I would be worried about is that if we basically say ok, there's two kinds of things you want to unring shut down just generally clean up. That means, you know you say fennel or derivative I.

F

Don't let me do it for you if you want or what we now use telemetry in a vacation go to subscribe to this event, if both of these concepts are ending up in the same q, essentially because they also subscribe to this event, I think you may not have problems, because application code is maybe accessing stuff that will on the safe and still being valid. So think what you want is you want to say every customer.

F

Normally application goes there just wants to telemetry and shut down, they should run first and then the all this you know safe handle stuff should run basically as the last thing, because once they're done, like you know, you probably know, can no longer run most of the manage could reliably there's a problem.

A

With that is all because the background threads may still be running while we're calling this Avenger. While we're calling me safe, handle final answers and we can't block or work the threads and then run user code, because the whole system is an anonymizer.

F

Well, what I would say is you know when you as you're running the application level code, the background thread should continue to run and then, when you say okay now this is the end of the process. You do what you do today. You hold all the threats and then the only thing you do is you clean up the safe house, because we ever implements them they're responsible for not doing arbitrary things. They should only really do closehandle on whatever right.

F

Like I mean yeah, I agree with you say it still open and an avatar user code, but I mean naked. It's if you derive from this time. We tell you. The only thing you should really do is close. The handle, like do nothing else, but you.

B

Know the problem it all in society. It's a concept. We have been running away in their online, so it's just like problematic guidance. Why be calculated about exception in reserve? I don't, but at work on time doesn't have it right. So if you have to kind of fill, this thing go definitely ape like hold it heads now.

B

It's not that so we considered like super ugly. Are. They are but I'm that picture right. Oh.

F

But then an under center of the butcher I was saying we should have all this rent. So obviously we should not hold shoot, not okay, then, let's not do that. I mean your questions like. What's the downside them, if we, if we don't hold the threads, there's like steps that are true, but at that point I mean.

A

You could be creating new.

F

A

That may not run the finalizer code. There.

B

May be a pointer to be.

A

Beth, you know I would.

B

Consider that to be like problem for the obligation I def like, if you beg around Ted skating, so gets like you and yogi shutdown code can like take a snapshot. Okay ever go to these for you now you can create my life, so I know right now, you're off.

F

So, what's the guys and if you basically have a long running back from Tibet I, guess you should three four-hour shutdown started and stopped work doing work essentially.

A

Yeah, if you're, if you're, if you have like I, don't know how environment of exit works with the out-of-band shutdown stuff. But if your application as a clear shutdown path, it should close all of its black background work, wait for it to finish and then shut down. I believe.

F

That makes sense for the app I just thinking like how we do it, the library layer but I, guess you would.

B

Have some outer elderly they would.

F

B

They try to spot this task. Okay, do this backup think I might just want to finish it like some time you take down? The problem is like: while these things are scheduled, IT the obligation, miticide shut up right, then they might be by chronic. Nobody is like holding hand on the task I, it's just like this point. Does it just like go around you know, I even want to hear about you anymore right.

A

But if they do that, there should be okay with that never running. Oh yeah,.

B

But the problem is like: if it's, if it's running about a shout out on it, going I honestly.

C

B

Like I think do if.

C

Somebody writes code, that is, you know, the leaf go I have.

E

To run away about it, what.

C

I, mostly the only thing that I'm going to really understand this. Let's say we write the library that open till it seems okay. How do you write this library such that? If we lie at me close this often.

C

But then in Bay City somebody else, it's up to this event handler and then progress.

B

And they yeah but gets there is no different if somebody catches it process me no.

G

Somebody just casually different.

B

Finalizes, you know if somebody cash is the process. Mcfly then just fine eyes, there's fun execute either to be on Hannah exception like when days are no exception. You are done I'm going to let such as we don't realize it. Yeah and it'll exception. Yada like this, like I, you know doesn't matter bet they have I'll accepting that so.

F

We're over time now, like I, think, let's just write out what we just said. It seems like we, but should we do another round of net or do we think may have enough information, because I'm honestly still confused like what the best course of action is at this point, like I was saying we basically start with a simple plan and add more complexity as we go.

F

We started with that's not what any finalization on shut down and see where it takes us, or are we saying well, let's introduce some complexity somewhere either in the run time on our side, because that would be quite hesitant to do that without actually knowing whether people really cared that much in London core I.

A

Think the two issues are kind of link. We can't not run sign letters and not shut down.

F

What yeah I would assume you would still do the event. The question is whether we would provide a general purpose. Infrastructure, like you know, make sure say: finals run all the time. For example, equity would do that I mean yes, you could always run your own code, but I. Think, generally speaking, you know that's more for apps, not following you know. Unless library authors would do the same thing, you would do. That would probably not cause any code running by.

C

The way I'm fine like just starting with their simply bad, and then you know, if you discover you, should we think about doing something else and I mean one thing, and it's also it's up to you guys like I, don't like it and hazards. I could like.

D

Eventually, you.

C

Know again his so many issues, I kind of its again. Absolutely you decide I would just do it slightly differently. I would not use an event that I'm provider, it's basically a library that was sampled, a security when of the range shots done as a provider, and then we can vary more flexibility in the future. How we execute the providers versus we have a chain of you know the event handlers and then you know and well it's kind of the providers. It's like I, always.

B

Provided I'm soon I shouldn't you.

C

Know action of not even yeah.

F

But you added to a list any for each list and you call the code. I mean that's essentially what any event up well.

C

Except for event, we kind of cannot change the view here of.

F

Course you can I mean you can literally asked for it for the file for each answer and write your own for each loop. You don't have to just call the entire thing and let the underlying delegate do it. I mean it's. Actually, it's a curling. In that sense, I.

B

Guess I relieved if you can about to take extra kind of you know, properties today that says you know hey. You know, Oh guys.

F

I really have to run to another meeting now, so that means.