Everything EOS EOS Fireside Chats, 2 Mar 2022

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From YouTube: EOS Community Weekly Fireside Chat - March 2nd

Description

The weekly EOS Community "open Mic" Session. All topics are welcome!
join us: https//www.discord.gg/eos-network

00:00 API+, Pomelo Launch, Pomelo NFTs, Defillama, UX Network & SUPPRA token, Fractally
00:08:10 API+ Blue Paper w/ Matthew Darwin
00:41:00 Dapp Metrics w/ Denis Carriere
00:45:00 API+ Blue Paper w/Nathan James "NS James"
01:00:00 Pomelo Launch Updates w/ Daniel Keyes
03:20:26 Yves La Rose shares his thoughts on Fractally and other ecosystem topics

Everything EOS is the official media channel of the EOS Network Foundation (ENF). The EOS Network Foundation coordinates financial and non-financial support to encourage the growth and development of the EOS Network. We’re harnessing the power of decentralization to chart a coordinated future for the EOS Network as a force for positive global change.

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https://discord.gg/eos-network
info@eosn.foundation
#EOS #EOSIO #ENF

A

B

Everyone welcome to the fireside chat.

B

We've got andrea in the house: dave rex from eos nation jana's on the production uh production side of things for the rsi chat restrooming to twitter, youtube, facebook.

B

Hello lenny lion, flash welcome. I don't think I've seen you many times in the fireside chat great to see some new same for whip e whitcomb.

B

Did I say that right.

C

D

B

Hi woodman a regular regular at these events. Great to see you here, tony tuba eve rose and zach gall from dnf. What's up howdy howdy.

E

I just want to state that I recognize kent. I am not someone else who did not recognize the challenge. Dap uh thanks for joining.

B

F

E

Yeah, I recognized your picture. If I just saw your name was kent. I wouldn't have put the two and two together, but how you doing.

F

E

Good man, nice to see her yeah.

F

Nice, seeing you too man, I appreciate all the videos you guys put up.

B

Yeah kent from eos san, diego, yes,.

F

How's, the weather up there in canada.

B

uh Cold and snowy, where I am.

E

The good weather's coming we've got it down here.

B

I I enjoy it go out for some cross-country skiing this week. Yeah sounds good.

B

Welcome, denny rocketship. We got dog man in the house, eagle, ws, aaron cox, of course, vip. Member of these fireside chats great to have you with join us.

B

Brandon lovejoy of the enf joining us as well.

C

B

Octosurf phoenix, oh g, west, one.

B

Cescam from challenge dac, what's up thanks for joining us again,.

D

How's it going how's it going.

B

We're doing good we're doing good.

B

Up to 25 people in two minutes, not bad, not bad! Are we gonna? Are we gonna break the 60 60 mark this week? I don't know, I guess we'll find out.

B

Robo t-zone 4629. What up.

B

Red sky welcome.

B

um So, just uh some uh some little nft news um reminder for everyone. um You have until the end of this fireside chat to blend your february raffle ticket. If you want to enter the draw, uh you need five pop tokens to blend into the raffle ticket. You can go to blen dot, dot, gems, dot, io I'll share the link in the stream chat.

B

If the, if your preferred wallet is not supported, you can also just go to atomic hub directly transfer five pop tokens to the account called blend, dot gems and enter the memo fab raffle in one word.

B

At the end of this, fireside chat we'll be giving away some eos prizes, but we've got 21 eos uh 21 prizes of five eos each to give away at the end of the fireside chat. If there's more than 21 raffle tickets, blended, then uh not everyone's gonna get a prize, or at least a five eos prize, but maybe we'll be giving other prizes as well. You never know.

B

And uh if we don't get 21 entries, then the leftover prizes get carried over uh until next week.

G

Hey, can you hear me.

B

Yes, matt, we can hear you oh great thanks for joining us. Matt matt was one of the authors of the api plus blue paper that was released this week. um I know matt did a ton of work on that uh more work than he was anticipating, apparently at the start of this project, but the end product is really good. It's clear a lot. Even people like me, who don't have any technical abilities, can understand the vast majority of it. Anyways.

B

And we'll get we'll get matt to talk a bit about it uh in just a little bit. I'm gonna wait a few more minutes before we get into the juicy topics of the day.

B

Welcome walter who, in the house, mauro, hi.

B

Joshua seymour welcome.

B

Chris barnes another regular at these fireside chats great to have you join us.

B

All right um well is there: uh did anyone uh have some uh thoughts that they wanted to share? Maybe some updates from stuff they've been working on.

B

No all right! Well, I'm going to call out people then get them to share their updates, because I know we've got some updates to share.

B

All right: well, um I guess we can get started with the uh api plus blue paper matthew. Did you have a few words you want to share with the community.

G

Or I didn't prepare any specific remarks, but um yeah just wanted to talk about uh api plus a little bit so api plus started like six months ago. We started talking about this project.

G

um A lot of the early days were just you know, coming together as a team, I think one of the interesting things is, you know, es nation grey, mass esrio, we've all been around for a long time, but we never really collaborated on a project so just getting to know each other and how to work together, because the the the the team was formed without a you know, defined leader right. So it was a collab here, three groups you guys get together, figured out right so well. It took some time to figure out okay.

G

What do peop different teams bring to the the table? What are the different thoughts? How do the different solutions to work? How are we going to structure this paper? What information do we need? Who do we need to talk to there's a lot, a lot of just logistical figuring out how to do a blue paper and then, as we get into it, then you know doing research, spinning up uh infrastructure on other blockchains, um comparing how that works in the sao, and you know talking to the team.

G

So at the end of it we came up with eight proposals um which some of them have dollar amounts attached to them and what we think needs for that thing uh and uh and one of them doesn't have a dollar amount because well quite frankly, there was so many options and a way to do it that we wanted more community feedback before picking one of them and then costing that out.

G

So let's uh we can just go through them kind of high level uh in order and then maybe people have questions so the first one is well apis have existed in in eos since the beginning, they're really important, but nobody was really defining.

G

How that they work in relation to how applications use them, so features would come out. New apis would get written, but there was never a concentrated design process to get developer input feedback modified the apis come up with new things, whatever you know, so it was all very ad hoc lots of teams did their own thing. We've got different history solutions or we called them specialized apis in the paper, and so what we need going forward is really to consolidate all of that work.

G

That's going on and actually come together as a community and try to build a roadmap going forward. So we can stop confusing all the developers about which solution they need to use where and where they can find the documentation and all of these kinds of things. So that's proposal. The first proposal is really let's. The blue paper is a good start, but we need this going forward to um to keep talking and you know, build new um community around designing apis figuring out what those apis need to look like and um yeah.

G

That's that's really the proposal, one.

G

um The second one is a proposal. That's already been funded, which is awesome, um is just to you know, based on our conversation with a bunch of developers and um users, um add some new features to the core software that will make their lives easier.

G

So um one of the things for example, if you use um the anchor is it will try to estimate the cost of your transaction, and then you know, there's a feature that will fuel will cover the cost depending on the current situation, but there is no standard api to come up with the cost of a transaction.

G

Well, maybe we should just have one isn't that great now anybody can use it. um You know, there's a diffuse has a feature to allow an application developer to retry transaction. Here, I'm going to submit a transaction, keep retrying it until certain conditions are met and then give me the successful trace of that transaction or give up. That's not a standard feature in node us. Let's add that so um so these are kind of examples of features that that certain teams have in their solutions. That would be very useful for multiple developers.

G

So, let's put them in the standard software and make them available to everyone.

G

um The next proposal is, um let's um support the existing operators, so I talked like the first proposal is: let's design new apis that are well supported and community led and there's a nice collaboration, but until we get to a point where those kind of apis fully exist and we need to support the existing ones, so we've got light api. We have defuse fire hose hyperion and robo.

G

Robo is also known as the grey mass api. So all of these solutions exist, they all have slightly different features.

G

We kind of need to make sure that they stay online while um new apis are built and new features are delivered.

G

um Related to that there's two ideas around: um how do we incentivize or create uh robust apis that the developers can rely on so up until now, everything's relied on block producers who, through their block rewards, will provide some apis um or maybe there's some paid solutions, but you know: should the network as a whole provide a centralized api solution that says: okay, here's a standard thing you can go to this website. It's all well documented!

G

You can click on here you can pay for the access that you need. um Maybe that's a thing or maybe we should come up with a here's, an incentive way of having pay api providers that are all distributed all over with, like the current block producers, but there's a way to pay them.

G

So there's a wide number of options between those two things and that's kind of where I said the funding is a question mark because we really want to understand from the community what, where on the chain, which or the the continuum of different options, do people want to see?

G

And then the last two proposals are around supporting um blockchain standards that the standards exist in the rest of the blockchain space, not in our blockchain space. So in order for us to be attract developers, we need to build, have the apis that those developers expect and they can use from that they're used to using on um other ecosystems, so we're proposing two to get funding rosetta and the graph. So that's very high level uh feel free to ask any questions.

B

Great thanks for the uh for the breakdown matthew that was really good, um yeah. Anyone. uh We really encourage people uh to ask some questions. We've got matthew on the line right now, which is great.

G

See aaron is here as well, so he's a major contributor to this as well. So maybe I don't know aaron what did I miss in my high level description.

H

I mean, I don't think you missed a ton.

B

H

Yeah went over the proposals themselves and I mean there's a lot of nuance that we could get into about each one, but nothing specific to add.

B

um Cool well on on that note, um you know the enf, if you, if you read the announcement uh last week, is looking for feedback on all the blue papers, including api plus, of course they're, offering some significant bounties for people who want to write long form content go read the article make sure you uh understand the criteria, real quick. You know it has to be between a thousand three thousand words uh and then there's some uh 100 one thousand two thousand eos bounties based on.

B

uh If some of this feedback is accepted by the the blue paper working groups or even implemented, then you get the higher bounties. But regardless, if you provide some long-form feedback, um you know of a certain quality minimum quality. Then then you will get some bounties. So please, um if you have time, read the white blue paper, give some some long-form feedback. That's great!

B

If you don't have time to do long-form feedback or that's not really your thing where the enf is also encouraging the community to leave some comments uh on some google docs that for each white paper, so for each blue paper. So each blue paper has a google doc up uh in english uh and chinese and korean, and then um you know we want community members to just get in there and leave comments if you agree with something, if you think that should be funded.

B

If you disagree with something you know, all sorts of comments are welcome and then, um in a few weeks you know we may compile all this community feedback and produce some more uh video content type of deal going going uh over all all the feedback and seeing kind of what the consensus is from the community.

B

I'll share yeah there you go zach just shared the link for the feedback initiative in the stream chat, so definitely uh check that out.

G

I think one of the things that's really important, even if you don't have detailed feedback on any one proposal, um is to think about which thing is more important than one other thing or has higher priority, because if we look at you know, api plus audit, plus uh core plus and the forthcoming wallet plus there's a lot of different projects here and it's like impossible to do all of them at once. We just don't have enough people to do that.

G

So, what's the most important thing out of api plus that you think um that would be helpful or what's or what's the one? Definitely don't do this right so definitely do or definitely don't do you know some sort of rank priority is definitely helpful. Even if you don't have detailed feedback on the specific proposals.

E

I, like the api transaction lifecycle improvements. Personally, I think that should be a priority.

G

Oh good they're, already funded.

E

That's correct.

I

G

I

E

Yeah, I forgot my channel eve shared that in it was recent. I, it was only shared in a telegram message.

E

So oci object computing, one of the core developers who basically were contracted by block one to build eosio they've been contracted to to build this because they could they have the experience they their plates are, I guess, expandable they're, probably always full, but um they had capacity to take on this project and rather than waiting um for all the teams that just finished the blue papers and haven't really been working on their own stuff, like grey mouse.

E

For a couple months now, while banging out the blue papers, oci is able to just step in and just start working on it. So that should be one of the first things that is developed and delivered on out of all of the blue papers. I think, uh unless someone could start later and finish it sooner.

J

I have a question for both aaron and matthew, uh what's which part of the blue paper the api plus blue paper? Are you guys most excited for.

G

Oh good question: I guess I'm most excited to look at the.

G

Supporting existing blockchain standards, so that's like rosetta and the graph you know, building looking outside the es or the esio bubble and thinking in terms of how you know in our world. How do we play and we expand into the rest of the blockchain or the web 3 world um to me? That's the most exciting thing.

H

And I guess on my side: it's probably the architecture team, because the we need kind of a cohesive vision around um the apis, the actual, like things that developers interact with to get information out of the blockchain.

H

um It is kind of a mess at the moment with varying things you need to do and places you need to look and unoptimize things, and it's it's been an area. That's been long overlooked. So I am hopeful that the combination of the architecture team and some new sdks will make developing on the native side of eos io, just that much better and lead to more apps, more developers and people excited to be trying their ideas out on this platform.

G

Yep, that would be my second one and just so people know the order that things are listed in the blue paper is not in a priority order. They're listed in the order. It made most logical sense, so people could understand the concepts, um but they aren't prioritized. So we want you to prioritize.

B

Hernan there I had muted you earlier. I don't know if you fixed your mic issue, but you can talk now. If you want to um thanks matthew and aaron. That's uh some great comments.

B

Phoenix og had some questions. I don't know. If enoch did you want to take the mic or did you want me to read your questions out.

B

Wow all right, so I need to read the questions that.

K

K

L

The adams family, the world, is larger. That's that's the voice, uh it's not lucas. It's uh thing, yeah.

C

Somebody needs to drop a beat to go with that and that beer.

F

C

Go into a remix.

F

C

M

uh I think maybe he just asked super super fast.

B

um Okay, so what what he wrote out in the stream chat was uh regarding additional solutions to core portion of eos, in parentheses, diffuse, any thoughts on how the additional solutions translate to costs. Slash, cost models to maintain these subsystems.

G

So I'm not quite sure I totally understand the question, but one of the things that is key from our thinking is that we've got um we've got robo, we've got the fuse, we've got, hyperion, we've got esio and we've got four different solutions and the cost to maintain four different solutions is obviously much higher than if we just had one solution.

G

So the go forward idea is that over time we should have less solutions or less specific, less common features that are in multiple solutions and work to reduce the overlap.

G

What I cut out.

G

Quality's not good today.

G

um So where was I oh, so yeah we've got four solutions, so the the idea going forward is. We should reduce the number of these solutions or reduce the extra features that are in some of the solutions so that we reduce the cost so right now, if you think you know, maintaining four solutions is a high cost. If we only had one, it would be a lower cost. We can't go from four to one overnight, so we need the architecture and standards research to figure out.

G

How do we evolve the existing four solutions in a way that gets us to having less um yeah? We need to reduce the cost of maintaining this. It's just cost for the maintenance and cost for the developer. Confusion, because there's multiple different solutions.

B

Yeah that makes sense.

J

um Yeah and don't underestimate the top cost of that developer confusion. That's uh that's significant.

B

And then phoenix also asked what are steps we think is appropriate to reach as a community some recommendation from smes, so small medium enterprises. I think.

G

Subject matter experts I think sme, oh, this is makes more sense.

G

uh Sorry, what was the question again.

B

What's what are steps we think is appropriate to reach some recommendation from smes.

G

Okay, so, as I said, I think the first thing is to get well. Hopefully people will talk about them. I like this. I don't like this. This could be improved this way, so getting that feedback and getting those rankings. This thing seems really really important. This thing, maybe not so much um and if we start seeing a pattern of people saying yeah this looks we should be focused on this, because this looks important.

G

Then you know those subject matter: experts um who we kind of know who they are because they pop up and talk in the esio developer telegram or um they show up working on blue papers. So if we start getting that feedback that seems to be going in a certain direction, then that will help if we get feedback, that's like all over the place. Well, I think you should do this. I think you should do this. Well, then we need to have a much broader conversation about why we don't see.

G

You know what is driving this diversity of views, because there's a reason behind why all these things why different people see a different priority for things? So um it's it's a lot of conversation that I think we need to have in order to come to consensus on what is the order of priority.

B

Great great questions: phoenix thanks. uh Thanks for sharing them.

B

Anyone else have some thoughts on api plus blue paper.

B

So you guys know um matthew has to leave the fireside chat uh in a bit, so he won't be here forever today. So if you have questions now is the time.

G

And if you think the api plus blue paper is long, I don't know how many pages end up being like around 50., um just think we chopped out like 50 more pages that we had written originally. So thank please thank even if you think it's long. Please thank us because it could have been twice as long.

D

Have we gotten any feedback from exchanges or or anything like that? In regard to the rosetta proposal, I see in the rosetta proposal that there'd be a change that uh there'd be a change to make it easier to sync with exchanges. Have we heard back from any exchanges on whether or not like how big, how much easier would that make things for them?.

G

uh No, I don't think we have comprehensive feedback at this point from exchanges. uh I think that's an action to do is to go out and talk to them about um how they would see this, and it is described in the project proposal for rosetta to you know, we need to talk to exchanges find out exactly what they need. How does it need to be delivered?

G

um You know, etc. So there needs to be more conversation to figure out that proposal.

H

And I think to be clear: it is to any exchange. That's currently operating eosio like it may be easier for them to just keep using whatever they're using, so they should be consulted. But really this will be kind of an exploration on how many exchanges that don't support, eos or don't support other eosio tokens would gain value from them, because new adopters, I think, would benefit a lot more than existing in the short term and then, in the long term. The ones who currently do integrate just natively without it may benefit.

H

But that really needs to be a question for them.

L

Hey hey guys, how are you all? um uh I got a question for matthew or iron regarding the api plus uh I'll start by clearing clearing the wires that I did not read the api plus blue paper.

L

So sorry for that, but um we're working on on an rng, a random number generator for the opening of the packs uh of the cards for the for the bakery game, and you know it rang about that that anyone developing either a game or- um or I I guess, stefan you, you guys, you know with dot gems you'd- probably face that you know there are some services like a random number generator that is active on wax, and I don't know who exactly is funding the resources for that for operating at rng.

L

But it occurred to me that this would be something very valuable for eos to have maybe as a simple api call. But um do you think that is something that we would like to? I consider as a as a public api for eos to to maintain somehow. So I think it could help a lot of nft collections, meeting gaming and stuff.

G

So we didn't discuss the random number generator in the api plus group.

G

I think it's a worthwhile thing to investigate. Certainly it has come up multiple times in the esio developers chat that it would be great to have a random number generator on eos. I think they're and aaron. You can correct me, I think, there's different models on different chains, like uh maybe fio, has a different one than wax.

L

Yeah we looked at the wax one but ended up implementing the one, that's in proton just because it's.

G

Protons yeah simply.

L

Simpler for it's just simpler for me to you, know, integrate and and and deploy.

H

I think yeah so go ahead. I was just gonna say I agree with what you were saying and that it is something we see asked for regularly, um but it falls outside of the scope of apis. The rng is actually a contract function.

L

H

We didn't focus on contracts specifically with the api paper, um but yes, I mean, and I'm with both of you and that this is a need. It's just the reason it's not in api plus is. It is not an api.

L

Right right right: well, it's it's a it's good to something to consider right, yeah! Absolutely! We should have yeah a lot guys that I'm right now at the hospital, so I just had a baby baby boy so uh and my wife told me not to tell anyone online, but you guys are like from family, so we only, we just told the family.

L

So we just have a baby boy.

C

Congrats questions.

L

Congrats buddy thanks guys thanks.

B

Your excuse, then I guess for not doing your homework this week and reading the blue paper.

L

Oh, don't don't get me started man. I should have already minted the the full. You know card games, all the nfts. I I we wanted to start testing the token sale contract.

L

I

L

On what? What I'm, what I'm, pending on delivery for for this week,.

B

All good man, all good, congrats and uh yeah make sure to take care of that family for sure.

L

Yeah yeah. Thank you. Thank y'all.

L

Oh, and and just just to also add to the pilot, if we're not, if we're done talking about the api plus right, I don't want to deviate the conversation, but we did publish a proposal for uh helping our friends, brothers and sisters in ukraine. I don't know if you guys saw the eos, israel post.

L

We have an account and we're working with evan and bogdan who are in ukraine on the ground, uh looking for the best way to to help them out. Of course, this is not going to be a 10 million dollar binance donation, but uh people are, you know, plunging in, and we already have two great artists that are donating their their nfts and- um and I think it it's it's gonna- be a good show of support from the community.

L

If we, you know route some funds in eos to help the the the people in need in ukraine, because there's not an option right now to donate anneals and- and we are going to figure out together with yev and bogdan and our friends on the on ukraine and what the best use of these funds is to to make actual real help. And if we don't find like a proper mechanism, we'll just route it to the official kind of donation channel which would imply. You know some of the used btc to send it.

L

But uh I'm I'm looking for more underground kind of you know more particular ways to help out so yeah just to raise awareness.

B

Great, please uh share links in our stream chat about.

L

uh And the stream chat okay, okay, I I shared it in the eos chat, but I'll share it on the stream. Yeah I'll show you down this picture thanks thanks cool.

F

B

Stream chat is just a few channels above this voice, chat channel. In case uh some of you aren't aware there we go hernan just shared the tweet.

B

All right, oh nice, picture hernan with the baby boy.

B

You don't look too tired. I guess that'll come soon.

L

Yeah, I I think I think my my wife had a rougher time, but but you know just maybe she's just you know she's making a fuzz about it. You know giving birth.

L

I was just you know, trying to making making her laugh so so I was going like you know. The main thing is that I'm okay and my my my pressure's all good.

B

Is that that you're, okay, and that you joined the fireside chat this week exactly.

L

Exactly if I made it to the far side, chad, that's.

J

L

Means we're good.

B

Great well yeah, congrats again and uh take care, take care of the family and.

L

Thanks, thank you.

B

Okay last call for api blue paper comments or feedback or suggestions or questions.

B

All right um so eagle, ws in the stream chat asked. um Are we going to address the elephant in the room regarding dan's future with eos and is the enf planning on supporting fractally?

B

um So I don't know eve if, if you have comments to share about that topic at this moment or not, uh if not, I have some personal thoughts. I can share.

B

So maybe he's not around I'll share some personal thoughts now.

N

I vote that we I vote that we uh do that last because once we get on that topic, we probably won't talk about anything else.

B

All right, I support that vote. I.

L

Said yeah, that's a good idea. It's a.

B

Good idea, okay, cool. um What other topics did? I have here, um this kind of links into that other topic defy lama. So last um last week we mentioned that denis added some tvl numbers to defy lama on eos, and then uh this week we were the top gainer in terms of tvl in all of crypto. Obviously it's because you know rex was added, bullish was added, d5 box was added, maybe a few others. I don't remember specifically um but uh yeah.

B

J

Atomic market, I think, was the other one.

B

Oh possibly yeah, um I don't know denis did you wanna share a bit or.

O

Sure yeah, I could share a bit so yeah, we've been I've just been scanning the different sort of um analytic websites that offer dap metrics, so one of the big things is is having your dap displayed on, let's say, dap radar and that radar you can put in your smart contract.

O

What that allows. It allows other people to look into okay. Where is the tvl like? Where is your the liquidity locked into that application?

O

Then you can take those sort of contracts and those applications and submit it to other analytic websites like defilama, so the process is kind of like just you know which which application on eos has liquidity.

O

You know whether the swap pool lending pool whatever pool and then building custom adapters to recognize the liquidity and defilement has a really relatively simple workflow to submit your application.

O

One of the reasons that none of the applications on eos were on defilement is that nobody submitted uh these d5 tvl adapters, so I've gone through and kind of scanned all the eos applications. I'm sure there was missing some, so I keep adding some as I find them in the you know. Oh, like today, I added them alcor, which alcor is on multiple chains.

O

So it's on wax it's on eos. So if, if, if you don't see your application it it doesn't mean that nobody, it doesn't mean that you can't have your tap listed on defaulema it. Just that means that nobody's built the the d5 adapter for that that particular application um and the other big thing for this week is that we've also got wax as a chain um on listed on d5 llama wax is not the biggest d5 and what's more the nft platform, but there is some defy applications that are kind of spawning.

O

um So right now, there's a tonic. There's atomic.

I

O

There's defy box, there's alcor, but if anybody have, um if there's a list of d5 based wax application, let me know or put them on dap radar, or you know ping me about it. It's quite easy to add more adapters and the other big benefit for adding into d5 lama. Is. It also connects to coin gecko so coin gecko has a tvl attribute to your project. So if you have a token or a project, okay, you can have your tvl reported in coingecko um via d5 lama, adapters.

I

So yeah that's.

O

A summary of the defilement.

J

And then, and then that contributes to the overall tvl metric for eos as a blockchain.

O

Yeah and and then you know, the chain gets recognition. The dapps get recognition, sort of the whole ecosystem of eosio gets recognition. So it's good to have these metrics submitted um to you know: dap radar defilama, all that and it kind of goes into the overall metrics of the chain and the ecosystem in the us. Io.

O

So yeah great so if you've got a d5, let me know.

E

I just unmuted nfts are bad. I saw the message in the eos telegram group and I was looking for it in a telegram group, but is that ns james there.

P

Yeah, that's hey! What's up guys thanks.

B

What up and it's james og eosio og in the house, hello,.

P

I actually did have some questions about the uh api plus. I wasn't, though,.

B

All right, we'll, let you ask them, even though the timer's up.

P

um So from I I feel like, uh I only had a brief chance to read it as, like. You said quite long, uh but it seems a little bit spread out into multiple different initiatives. Is there any reason it's not trying to focus on, let's say one or two: instead of uh more than that.

H

I think it was just a matter of time. We didn't feel we could go deep enough on some of the things, um which is why there were proposals for teams to follow up afterwards.

H

I know when we originally started. We got real deep into history and then that kind of bled into streaming technologies and better ways to optimize. All of that. So that way it wasn't relegated and hosted by just like three people, um but to actually like propose a real solution.

H

I don't think we would have been able to come to consensus in time to meet the deadlines and have this thing published. So that's why we didn't get super deep, um not a great reason, but it definitely needs to happen.

P

Well, I'm not actually talking about um the the depth of the descriptions. I'm more talking about the fact that there's like, I think, four solutions there tackling different things. uh Is that supposed to be four different products, or is that just four different avenues of the same product.

H

Which ones are we talking about, then? I'm not sure I'm following still hold.

P

On let me let me move the computer put kids to sleep. um Okay, so there's the graph rosetta uh distributed api central api service uh specialized apis.

P

These are these sound, like they're, very different things again, I haven't had a full chance to read uh the documentation or the the blue paper, so I might be mistaken about what these are.

H

Some of them do have some overlap and like when we're talking about the the central api and the decentralized one, basically um they're, both valid options. That could both be done, but they also could both be done independently. um I'm questioning whether I'm actually answering your question.

P

You are, you are um okay, so here's here's, the actual question. Are these initiatives meant to be done in parallel or is one going to be chosen and the community will run with that? One.

H

That is a discussion to be had, I think, potentially you could do yep.

G

Go for it yeah, potentially, you could do all of them or you could choose to do only some of them.

L

It always depends on the timeline for that blue paper right. Maybe that's a year's work and all of the proposals can get done in that time. You know, maybe that's achievable.

H

Well, and specifically, with the centralized versus decentralized like they're, both going to have pros and cons, and it's really up to the community on which approach they want to approve. um There's we expect some people are going to rally against having a centralized api provider and having the network support that um people are going to ask questions like. Why should the network subsidize that cost um and the answer for those people is going to be?

H

Okay, here's a distributed, incentivized, decentralized platform that, in this other proposal, that they could choose to support um and, like matthew, said they both could exist in parallel and meet everyone's needs. It's just. The costs will then go up since we're kind of duplicating effort.

H

P

Again, forgive me for not having read this in depth. uh Can you give me a brief difference between what this the decentralized api and the centralized api would be sure like we're talking about an actual api here, not uh the company that runs the api right.

H

uh We are talking about an organization that would be running the apis um for the central api proposal. Think like infuria, it's this entity that provides a turnkey solution for any new developer coming on board to just be like. Oh, I can use this and I know it's going to work because it's like this organization's purpose, whereas on the flip side.

P

Ultimately, because this is uh developed and funded by the community, the underlying technology would still be open sourced right.

H

P

So the fact that it's a central, a centralized unit distributing it isn't actually make it centralized.

H

True, but the fact that the community may invest in hardware, rentals or purchasing of hardware or something along that lines to actually operate like a really robust solution that is centralized like that's under the control of an end. I see.

P

So the business model of let's say the cloned inferior, wouldn't necessarily be the same as inferior where they charge people based on their usage, but rather the community sponsors that effort.

H

Yeah and there could be paid offerings on top of that as well. The proposal itself does kind of delineate between those two options as directions. We could go.

H

Both are kind of trying to address the issue that we have public apis available right now, but there's no underlying uh guarantee that those will exist and that those will work, they're kind of operated on a best effort basis and both the central company operating a professional, hosted solution and an incentivized centralized model could help ensure uh general availability of those services rather than this best effort basis. We have today.

P

And the uh so in the case of a centralized one, which I actually think is a pretty good idea, and you know: we've seen how infera has um helped the ethereum community. uh Would it only be for es mainnet or were we talking about all the other chains uh included as well.

H

I think we're starting talking about the eos main net, since this is kind of when we started the paper. The eos io plus group didn't exist and things were different.

H

What the hell yeah some fun, audio nonsense: yeah.

J

If you'd disconnect and reconnect that might fix your issues, I've had that before myself,.

F

Helped would be last week true.

H

You were really slow last week where yeah it was really fast. That was the exact opposite yeah and I think that audio just like, wiped my brain. So what was the question again.

P

Same here I'm going.

Q

H

J

That was the silence.

P

Okay, so yeah the third parties, so other chains besides, let's say.

H

Yeah we we started thinking about eos, but we talked about other chains constantly. um We think that this, like group, or even the model or the technologies and the things that come out of this effort, could easily be applied to other chains and that organization could branch off into other chains um with the three teams that were involved in this paper: ours, greymass um eos nation and then eos rio.

H

We all operate on multiple chains and offer these sorts of services to other chains, so that thought was really forefront in our mind, as we were thinking about ways to potentially do that.

H

I don't know if it's written great that way, but we aimed for that.

G

Yeah, the paper is really deliberate about saying.

C

G

I owe as much as possible.

P

I mean I kind of have to look at all this stuff from a third party perspective now because I do feel like I'm a third party at this point, and not necessarily for ultra but all the other chains, uh that I do things either in my name or not in my name, um there is probably a big uh where we're watching. You know what's happening with all of these blue papers, the wallet plus the api plus, and that's one of the biggest questions that everybody has.

P

Because, uh yes, a lot of these chains haven't pushed back to the eos community per se, but we're all trying to push forward for open sourcing a lot of our own code so that we can uh make those progressions from the stuff that we've built for the past couple years and apply that to all of the other networks as well.

P

And it's just. It would be nice to be able to see that coming from this foundation and all of the outputs of these blue papers as well.

H

And I think some of that's starting to happen with the eos io plus working group, because we're now talking about the blue papers and how those ideas could be adopted so that they're capable of supporting any chain um and how that looks and feels and how people interact right. Before this call, we had kind of a call about how we prioritize development and how chains come to consensus to come up with direction when it comes with when it comes down to code and operations and standards. Things like that.

H

So I think the blue papers were probably initiated before this thought, or this idea really felt like it could be a reality and now that it does feel like it's a reality the blue papers kind of have to I don't they don't have to change, um but we have to think about them slightly differently in this larger eos io context.

H

So I think we're all aligned um the papers and their timing, however, may have not leaned into that quite as hard.

P

uh As far as manpower goes you you had mentioned that you're not sure whether it would be decentralized apis and distributed apis at the same time. Is there enough manpower to go around for both or would it be in better focus? uh Would it be better to focus on one.

H

Great question man.

G

Personally, don't think that yeah, I don't think, there's enough manpower to do both like starting. At the same time, it feels like the the amount of expertise needed to build one or the other or to define how those things work um was going to pull on the same set of experts.

G

So we just need to be careful about not overloading them. um You know somebody made a comment earlier about, I think with zach. It said you know, aaron and graeme's team have been spent the last. You know six months writing papers and not writing code.

G

So we have to be careful about spinning off too many projects and not having the time to actually do a good job on any of the projects that are in progress. So, yes, I would.

P

Is there a paper coming out that talks about onboarding new blood.

H

Should be, I mean, I think, that came up in one of the channels. I don't know what channel but like yesterday, in that like, we should have a significant portion of our knowledgeable people, training, new people, and I don't know exactly what that means, but like we need padawans, essentially that are taking up the cause and gaining this knowledge set, because right now the the knowledge is really limited to an incredibly small amount of people and the documentation is honestly not sufficient enough to onboard somebody themselves without significant time.

P

I think just the stack is such a large monstrosity at this point that uh yeah it's kind of hard to do, regardless of the documentation not to say the documentation is good. I think you're, absolutely right. It's not great by any means.

H

Hopefully, these papers and just getting the ideas out and starting to discuss them like this is a good first step towards making that a reality by getting people interested and identifying that need.

E

I also think the uh developer onboarding could fall under the um mantra of the whatever the eosio plus working group becomes because there's a lot of overlap between all of the chains. So it's kind of like that's the kind of stuff that everyone can kind of combine efforts on and come up with, the solutions for yeah I like um aaron's and I'll. I forget what your analogy was on one of the cd calls you're talking about, I think blacksmiths or something.

E

Oh, you gotta like slow down your work output to be able to onboard people, and I forget what it is. I'm gonna try to repeat it.

H

Yeah, I don't remember what that was either.

Q

I do it was a game of thrones reference and uh the developers are blacksmiths, but uh we need to invest more in tent manufacturing because, like the soldiers are bringing in people, but it's not very hospitable. Yes, I am something like that.

H

Wow we get off on some fun tangents.

B

All right so uh in honor of nf, james name, why don't we talk about some nfts? um I'm gonna remind you guys for the for the uh raffle. At the end of this call, we've got um 13 13 raffle tickets for this month uh minted. So that means everyone right now is guaranteed at least uh five eos prize. If you're missing pop tokens, you can buy them on the market right now for 1.5 eos.

B

So maybe it's worth it for you to buy one get in here um by the before the end of the call, and then um I've got some pomelo nft updates to share, but before that um I'd invite daniel uh to share some pomelo platform updates. If there's something to share.

J

All right, yeah, so season two just around the corner um excited to announce. We've got our dates. All announced lined up it's march 22nd. Anyone will be able to submit their grants for season two or opt-in to continue their season. One grant uh and applications will be open until april. 11Th and donations will be open from march 30th to april 23rd, uh and we got a pretty exciting season lined up. We got over already announced previously.

J

The enf has has um confirmed they'll, be donating 888, 888 dollars to the matching pool if you're not familiar with pomelo. The way that it works is we've got a matching pool donated by the enf. In this case, anyone can make donations to the grants that they like and those donations get matched from that matching pool according to the quadratic formula.

J

So this is uh modeled after git coin on ethereum, if you're familiar if you're familiar with that um and it's pretty powerful because it means you know a lot any community member can make very small donations. You know toss one eos to a project and, if a large amount of the community, if that project gets lots of unique donors donating to it too, it increases the amount of the match of your of your contribution. You can end up.

J

um You know contributing that that one eos donation can end up actually making a large uh impact to the portion of the matching pool. That's going to that grant. um So it's it's a good way to get. You know the demo the community's voice on what are the public goods that we want to fund.

J

uh We got some exciting new features coming in season two, uh so I already mentioned you know one. One of the things that's coming is you'll be able to opt in to continue over from from the previous season into season. Two uh we've got better social sharing ability. So when you share your grant on something like twitter, you'll have a nice. Your the image of your grant will display nicely with the meta description.

J

uh That was some some feedback we got in in the first season was was. That would be a big help to to promote to help our grant owners be able to promote their grants, um we're going to improve the approval process, feedback back loop. One thing we learned in season: one was uh and again, if you're not familiar with pomelo um in order to qualify to have a grant on pomelo, it has to be a public good which, in a public good, is something that's non-excludable.

J

Non-Rivalrous basically means you can access it for free and by accessing it you're, not preventing anyone else from accessing, um and we had a lot of a lot of applications submitted in season, one that were sort of in this.

J

You know it looked like. Maybe it was a public good, but there was not clear enough. They haven't dug deep enough in the application to uh to really show the public good of their application, and we really want to encourage more particip, more grant owners to be successful to to get approved in season two. uh So ins and season two we're going to have a new feedback, we'll be able to respond.

J

You know, instead of just declining these applications, send it back to the grant owner with, with some advice on editing it, to make it more likely of getting approved, um we'll be offering more native social login options for chinese users. So one of the things we we learned in season- one was um you know we again if you're not familiar with melo.

J

There is a social login aspect, because we need to protect against civil resistance. We have to. We have to make sure that you know we have unique users using the account. So we got uh users from social accounts thing that we're using github, google, all western social login options. um So you know we had feedback from the chinese community that we may get more more participation from them if we had more social platforms they're used to using. So we should see some of that in season two um one.

J

I'm really excited for trust bonuses for passports- and this is a port team. They were, they were successful in getting funded in season, one they're, building a solution that allows you to tap your passport and prove basically that you have a unique passport without passing over any of your identity.

J

So we'll have a way for anyone in in pomelo to be able to prove they have a unique password to boost their trust score, which will make their donations get a little boost in the value that that they, uh the matching contribution allocation um and those are really the big. The big features um we'll have other little improvements as well.

L

Yeah, I have a question for pomelo. If I made all right.

L

If we had a running grant on the last season right and we want to showcase the progress on what we made with the uh receive funding from the foundation and then we want to kind of uh propose, uh uh we will propose uh a request for a grant that is related to the same project. But it's a different kind of the next step right like if we did a uh an open source, smart contract, maybe audits for that contract and stuff.

L

Would you suggest it's best to edit the existing proposal, updating it with the progress and kind of restructuring to what's the next step? Or would you just create a new proposal and just mention link to the the the the proposal that you you ran on the last season with.

J

Yeah, so if this is a completely different project, I would probably recommend making a separate proposal. If this is a you know, you want to continue getting additional funding for the you know the original thing you were going for in season one um I would you can. I would suggest editing that you know give submitting your progress updates uh and we that will encourage that in the process.

J

So when you, if you opt in to continue uh grant from season one into season, two you'll be prompted to edit and provide you know any any progress, updates or modifications you know, maybe maybe you have to make some changes in direction based on what you learned through developing the first set of set of features you built from from season one. Maybe your strategy is evolving.

J

um So again, I would say it depends on how different it is. If it's.

L

Yeah, I think I think you answered my question so if it's related to kind of the same project, it's better to kind of update the progress on that grant proposal and to say yeah. This is our. This is our next step and if it's it's something completely different, then it's uh you know it's better to make a new a new grand proposal. That's.

J

Right, the the grant will retain like it's going to carry its history from season to season. So you know everyone will who's sees your season. Two grand they'll see how much you earned in season one um right at some point. We, I don't think this will be ready for season two, but we'll also have snapshots so you'll actually look at what the grant application looked like in season one compared to what it looks like in season. Two um that's going to be coming in the future, but we're saving all the all the data.

J

In the meantime, it just won't be visible in the ui. um So.

R

J

Would say there definitely is value in you know, continuing maintaining the history of your grant if it makes sense again, people will be look back in the history um and, in any case also your profile. You know if you're publishing a new grant from the same account. You know your account is also building a history. You're going to be able to you know anyone can look at your profile and see. Oh, they had you know in season one they had this grant in season two.

J

They had this grant, and um so you know you're, not you know, buy you know just because you're creating a new grant you're not losing that history. It's still part of your. You know your history as an account.

L

Yeah, that's great thanks daniel and you know it would be super cool to also kind of track, the the kind of the fun destinations for those accounts. So maybe some accounts just you know, just cashed in all the eos to pay for for what they established and that's cool.

L

But maybe you know some of us uh try to manage all the operations of what was established within the eos community, paying you know, people and years to do the work and, and that can be yeah and- and that can be maybe incentivized right so that we also kind of uh um promote in our internal economy.

J

It's it's not something we got on our roadmap, but it's a it's. uh I could see that it's like a yeah keeping and keeping the money in the family.

L

J

L

A bad it's like a badge of yes, I am, I am looking for. You know uh people in eos to to try to get to do the work.

J

The beautiful thing about web3 and blockchain, and this ecosystem and the culture that we're participating in is even if we don't build that into pomelo directly. The data is all on chain. There's some great tools out there, like eos detective.

J

um Anyone could decide to like make an nft series that rewards you know sets come up with some algorithm that creates a score and for every uh every grant, based on whatever metrics and and then nft badges that gets sent to the grant owners and uh who knows have a pomelo pitch to defund the open source technology that makes that possible.

J

um Yeah, there's all kinds of cool stuff we can. We can do as a community to collaborate to make pomelo more fun and engaging.

L

Well, I I for one am super excited for the next season, so keep up the great work guys.

J

Thank you, yeah. I'm super excited too excited to see uh what you know. I was super surprised by the the um the quantity and quality of all the applications we received and the level of participation. Now we've got a bigger, quite a lot, bigger matching pool than season one more people aware of it. You know: we've we've all had practice in season one. We know we're doing a little bit more um so yeah. I really think season two is gonna, gonna, be awesome much better even than season one, which was already awesome.

E

And on top of the matching pool, um the nf will be making some direct contributions to uh proposals most likely after the matching like uh after the quadratic formula is applied. That way, it doesn't like skew what everyone gets for their matching funds, but that's another opportunity. There is um especially if there's very high value high impact proposals that just don't get the kind of attention that maybe they deserved.

E

I saw that in season one there were some usually the more technical ones where there might be a lot of value there, but because it's not something that the general token holder understands like something like marketing.

E

It got a lot less attention than maybe it should have so those ones uh I'll personally be especially on the lookout for and like pitching to uh the decision makers on that. um But it's a it'll be available for everyone, we'll release our um like decision-making criteria and everything uh before that happens, but that's another opportunity for season two that was not available in season. One.

J

Yeah one thing I keep telling people is that the the power of pomelo is not so much in what the funding necessarily you get during the season. It's the opportunity to signal or get the attention and potentially achieve you, know large grants elsewhere, and this is kind of an example of that the enf doing direct contributions uh and to the to the grants that get discovered through this through this process.

E

And hopefully, um with the all the eden delegates and everything um it seems like there was a lot of donations coming from them from every single tier all the way up to the cds uh contributing into the pomelo proposal. So hopefully um those accounts have all been accumulating eos over the last few months. I know they've been spending it on different contributions within eos, but I'm looking or not looking, I guess I'm looking forward to it, but I'm also expecting it to see a lot of contributions coming out of all of the trusted elected delegates.

E

B

All right, good stuff we've got some new joiners in the chat. Let me give out a few shout outs, and I saw harvey five by wire. Hello: we've got drew ball, got dwayne from csx eric burby, probably massacred that glute dog hello, jesse from the eos bees is with us most. Yes, thanks for joining the mancha rufus massacred that one too um yeah.

B

So I know, um speaking of pomelo, we had someone asking questions about pomelo nfts, uh so those of you who have been following along we'll be I'll be publishing an article actually right after uh tonight. I I I wanted to get it out this afternoon, but I ran out of time, but we'll be uh enabling the potion blend on tuesday morning es est, so the so the diamond potion can be blended by combining four kimberlites and any of the grand collectibles.

B

um The kimber lights are almost sold out. Our grand collectibles were sold out. So that's great um really thank you to everyone who participated. Of course, all of these primary sales is money. That's uh or eos. That's added to the matching pool of pomelo season two. um So that's going to be about 5000 eos that was raised from the community for these nfts. That's going to be added, um you know, might not might not be too much when you compare to the massive budget that dnf funded, but still compared to our season. 1.

B

That's a 5x increase on the amount of funds that we raised. So we're really happy about that and um yeah thanks for everyone who joined so uh the next step starts next week early next week, the diamond potions are going to be able to be blended when you blend your diamond potion, that's when the fun really starts.

B

So these diamond potions they're going to generate some diamond fragments and these diamond fragments are actually going to come in a variety of shapes, colors and clarity, and so you're going to accumulate these diamond fragments. You can claim one right away when you, when you blend your potion and then you can continue to claim one every 24 hours, there's going to be seven fragments available per potion. um In order to implement this, we had to develop some some new technology on our side, so denis worked on these smart contracts.

B

So we're working with mutable attributes uh we're working on this random generation for these fragments.

B

uh Of course, what you'll want to look out for is some really clear fragments so that that clarity is as high as you can get it, because um the next step after that is going to be to be blending five fragments with your diamond potion into the end game of the series, which is the diamond pomelos, and these diamond pomelos are going to uh have attributes and visual attributes.

B

Yeah, um so so it should be pretty fun. um I'm not gonna reveal more than that. We will be reviewing a few of the uh visual assets uh later on today in our article. uh But basically you know uh I imagine everyone's gonna have their favorite shape, color, that they'll be aiming for for their diamond pomelo, we'll be expecting people to be trading. These et cetera, um there's gonna be extra fragments available.

B

So not all fragments can be blended into a diamond pomelo and that's kind of to allow people to really be able to pick and choose. uh You know what they want their diamond pomelo uh to look like. um I just saw the visual assets myself or the diamond pomelos for the first time today uh shout out to mona she's in the chat today, she's uh our designer on our on our gems team, so she's been quite involved in basically making all the assets that you've seen in the pomelo series. Mona.

B

Do you want to say hi real, quick.

B

Maybe she's not actually here, but um yeah she's been doing a great job uh and the whole team we had. We had a blast. You know designing this. This series designing this collection, adding these new functionalities stuff that we've never done with nfts before and we've been super excited to to show it off to the community, and you know we've been super proud that so far the community has enjoyed what we've revealed, even though we haven't revealed so much just yet.

B

um You know our primary sales are basically sold out, which is great and uh yeah, so we hope you guys uh enjoy this uh and then, of course, there's also going to be the pomelo badge at the end, uh at the end of it all, which you can convert your your diamond pomelo into a pomelo badge for those of you who have bought, uh you know more than one uh one set basically um also.

B

The last final thing is that you'll be for those of you who are holding golden pomelos from season one. I know there's a uh some extra supply out there and people have been asking if we can do something with that and we did implement something for the mellow holders. You'll be able to upgrade your diamond potion by blending it with a golden pomelo into a golden diamond potion, and that's gonna, give you five extra fragments um yeah. So I guess I'm just gonna leave it.

B

There um pay attention to our socials later today, we'll be publishing, basically, all this information in an article. If you want to go, consult it we'll be sharing some of the visual assets as well, but of course, keeping some uh as a surprise for for later on uh so yeah. So we hope you enjoy it and.

B

Oh mona is trying to talk. Oh hey mona, I'm coming in hi.

S

Sorry, my microphone wasn't working. Sorry.

I

S

Oh hi, everyone can. You hear me.

B

Yeah we can hear you thanks uh thanks for joining the chat and uh yeah thanks for all for all the great work you do. um Mona uh is new to the to the blockchain and nft space. Well, not anymore, now she's a veteran after working with us for many months, uh but uh you know it's been great uh working with her explaining to her. What nfds are why people like him et cetera and uh yeah she's, uh and then I encourage her to collect, collect some of these pomelo nfts and um yeah.

B

She said it was kind of weird buying her own nfds. You know off the market.

S

Yeah but yeah it's fun, I'm enjoying the the journey. I bought a bunch of them yeah. It's it's fun, ready to buy more.

B

Well, you can't they're all sold out pretty much, but there's going to be a season. Three. Yes,.

S

Exactly and four and five.

B

Exactly so these you know these. These. This series is pomelo nft series, there are promotional and they are meant to just raise awareness about pomelo in the community, keep pomelo, you know front of minor for everyone and we kind of try to time it so that you know the end game of our nft series kind of coincide.

B

You know it's kind of time at the same time that the start of the donations uh and the grant applications are open for the actual pomelo crowdfunding platform.

B

uh So yeah just a reminder for pomelo season, 2 crowdfunding platform, the grant applications are going to be open from march 22nd to april 11th, and the donations are going to be open from march 30th to april 23rd.

B

B

um Yeah, so, okay, what other topics do we have on the agenda today before getting into the final topic? Let's see.

B

Is chris barnes still here, yes, yeah.

K

B

Hey hey chris, um apparently I didn't watch it, but apparently you did an interview with the ux network this week.

K

Yeah uh yeah, it was with darren swords from ux. He uh is like he's, got a big financial background, uh traditional finance and very knowledgeable guy. As far as tokenomics, I believe, he's part of the yield plus team, so certainly dialed in with the ecosystem and he's one of the principals behind ux and they have been working on a bunch of products and so that interview kind of goes over a bunch of that one of the it was a few interesting things.

K

One of them that I found personally most interesting is this uh idea of a multi-token index token lp, like so think of a multi-token balancer pool where I'm probably not explaining it very well, but basically, you can have using this custom ibc that ux has come up with any token holder of the various eos io chains can deposit across this trussless bridge and will mint this multi-token lp token. So, like a liquidity pool, when you traditionally submit you, you get you you end up owning the lp token.

K

So in this case the lp token will be a basket of all these various underlying eos io tokens. So it does a few things for one: it allows any. So if you own eos and you're, just strictly tied to eos and you're tied to the success uh or or not success of eos you're just kind of one-sided, you can own this lp token and you still have exposure to eos.

K

But now you also you dilute your exposure but to eos, but you then add exposure to the other eosio chains, so not that I want to discourage people from holding strictly eos, but I think, as far as the narrative of eos io kind of working together and collaborating if you do diversify a bit into that overarching index token, you at least have a reason to cheer for the other chains. So it's I just think it's general a good messaging thing. The other thing that comes out of that is by doing this.

K

The proposal is that this index token, it's called like set supra index token is the name it's been unofficially, given that token, as it gets minted and builds value from all these tokens coming in from the various chains, there will be a head room, so basically kind of tokens minted out of thin air to add, on top of that, and then those headroom tokens become uh under the control of essentially what the eosio plus working group is.

K

So those tokens will then have value backed up by the underlying assets that it's accumulated and then that headroom can be used to fund eosio protocol dev work. It's one of the big questions that has come up is who funds the eosio protocol work. You know, eos is obviously the the gorilla in the room as far as market cap and volume. So it is that fair for eos to fund the lion's share of that work that the other chains can benefit from.

K

So it's it's tough, it's a tough thing to balance, but this provides an opportunity to sort of create a better balance and align incentives, and then a principle from each of these chains can then have control of how that headroom is spent to direct towards the various developer teams that would do eos io protocol upgrade work uh yeah anyway. I definitely encourage people to watch it. Aaron is uh darren, is far smarter than I am and explained it far better than I likely just did so check it out.

B

Yeah, no, that's that's uh that's good! I had uh I had no idea about all this and I I think I understood what you what you're talking about. So I think you did a decent job explaining it and just to be clear. You can hold this index token just on eos right in your eos account without having to create these other chains, but get exposure to these other chains.

B

Did I understand that right.

K

There we go weird mic uh yeah, the ownership would basically like it. The the token the lp pool itself would exist on the ux network. So I think you you would deposit from your eos native eos account. It would get the eos get locked into sort of this holding vault on eos, but then that would issue new lp tokens on ux and how your wallet transfers it's esio. So I assume it would somehow. I don't know if it creates an address yeah. I don't know how that's going to work out.

K

You may need an account on ux in order to make this happen so to be determined. I know they're coming out with their amm, like ux, is maybe unknown to many on this call since they've been doing a lot of stealth development work and haven't been pumping, they're kind of doing a different approach than we're used to seeing where people pump what they're going to deliver and then they attempt to deliver it cardeno in this case, these guys are actually looking to build the tech and then sort of announce it once it's ready.

K

So the amm, the automated market maker, is going to come first and that'll actually provide some price discovery for ux and I think their folks can start to um get their actual accounts. But the great question steph how exactly it works for those who don't want to try to create an account on ux.

K

Hopefully they make it pretty simple.

B

Yeah- and I guess um good time to announce that eos nation is actually a block producer on the ux network. Now um this kind of a recent development, uh but uh you know, we've we've met the team from ux network. uh There are the guys from eos titan.

B

If some of you remember uh that group- and uh you know- we've been really impressed uh with the people that work on that team, they're really solid um and uh yeah we're happy to be uh working with them, and I know they're also working on kind of the potentially an ibc solution for all the eosio networks, and so I don't know too much about that. um But I know it's a topic that's being brought up in the eos io plus uh calls again.

B

If you want to watch these aosio plus calls they're being recorded and up uploaded to uh ramy's channel, I think um so. You can always go and watch watch. Those calls yourself if you want more information about all the progress uh on there.

B

um Okay cool, so I think I'm running out of easy topics. Are you ready for the final topic of the day? I have.

N

A uh I have a question for the community real quick, um because I unloaded the or I released the eos power up silver and gold nft utility features, uh but I noticed that uh there hasn't been much interest in the silver staking rewards.

N

So I was wondering if maybe people didn't understand it or if there was some confusion about how that works.

N

So if anyone had some thoughts or feedback on that I'd appreciate it.

B

Well, um like we, we talked a bit before I wasn't. I didn't realize that you could apply your own code to your own. Your referral code to your own account seems obvious now that I'm saying it out loud, but at first I didn't didn't quite get that so maybe there's other people that were in the same boat um so like the silver nft gives you a referral code, gives you 50 of the fees generated by anyone who's using that referral code. So if you use it on your own account, you can save.

B

You know half of the fees uh if you're, using the automated resource management uh that eos pyro update io, provides.

B

So I think it's good to point that out.

N

Yeah and anyone um anyone can get a 10 if you, if you just add someone else's referral code to your account, you'll just automatically get a 10 discount. You know irregardless.

B

There you go more things, I didn't know.

N

Yeah so I feel like there must be some. Maybe I probably could do a better job explaining it um but yeah. I was just kind of surprised. I think it's been live like two weeks and I haven't seen anyone actually use it so, but I've seen people like people are staking their silvers, but then they're not actually using the links for anything.

N

So I don't really know why they're staking them and they're not using them.

B

Staking nfts is always fun doesn't matter if you understand the utility or not.

N

B

Those bad boys just.

N

Click that button go for it.

B

But yeah thanks for thanks for chiming in on there.

C

Before we get on to the what might be the main event, um I was wondering because chris was talking and then we haven't heard from helios in a while. If there's an update.

K

Yeah, uh let's see we, the main thing that we've been focusing on right now is the incubator light series we have going on um with our business development guy gavriel shaw that um really really smart dude, if you all haven't uh if you're not following some of his blog articles on our website, heloisrising.com as well as his twitter um he's also so basically there's 10 projects they've just it's taken about. We started in january, so it's been a bit of a long haul and a lot of the projects.

K

It's been about just their pitch deck and it sounds so simple. It's just like a you know, that's a powerpoint presentation, big deal, but so much has gone into it. I've learned a ton, that's for sure, and uh so the final review, the final presentation of these pitches actually are, is going to take place next week. It's an internal team. We've got some of our investors and some external folks looking at the projects, and we will start doing interviews with each of the teams to do some more content there about these projects and yeah.

K

So it's gone really well. We've also, then started our second season of that, so another 10 projects have signed up and are working through the same process. So we're going to kind of keep rolling this out um we're trying. I mean things. I can't talk about as much trying to close some investment deals it's hard. It takes. It takes a while to come to terms on investing in projects and we'd love to just throw money at everything and hope it bears fruit.

K

But you know that's not how it works, obviously so trying to make an impact trying to still contribute to the ecosystem. It's just slow, but we're still moving forward, and I know the etp that's also run into a few hiccups taking longer than we had hoped, but still progressing in case anybody's wondering about that. um We haven't really talked about it much, but uh it's it's still. It's still hopefully happening so trying to push that forward.

K

um Yeah and by all means we're trying to do. We do weekly eosio top five moments of the week. So if you're not subscribed to our youtube channel, uh please do we try to keep it pretty broad covering all of us. Io projects eos, of course, is in that every week, because it's the most active and arguably exciting chain, so there's always stuff about eos in those top five, but check that out. If you want to stay in touch with some of the other chains too and uh yeah, that's probably high level stuff.

N

Did we ever get a yes or no? If, if helios owns the b1 account now.

K

No, we we don't own that I'm not sure why it was thought that we owned it, um but no.

N

Okay, okay, so helios doesn't own. The b1 account.

K

Not that I'm aware of I I don't know, I don't think so. No, unless we do- and I don't know about it- I mean to be fair. Helios is a is a complex thing, brock's, a very busy dude and there's things that he's doing that we don't necessarily I don't necessarily will know about. But as far as I'm aware, we do not own the keys to the b1 account. Do you know why you think that, like what's the cost.

N

Well, when they, uh when b1 made, that final transfer to the helios account in that same transaction, they swapped uh all the keys as well, which they've never swapped the keys before.

N

And uh so it just seems suspicious that these keys, who, who owns these new keys.

K

Got it yeah not not to my knowledge uh if they were just gonna, give us the keys they wouldn't have had to transfer the funds before handing us the keys, I suppose, um and also there's a ton of ram sitting there so, and I have asked internally about that ram but uh yeah, so I don't think we own it. I could be wrong, like I say, helios isn't just me and uh so perhaps I'm wrong. So if I think that we do own it.

N

I mean I mean normally, I wouldn't I mean you know. Normally I wouldn't it's like it's none of our business right, but this is a kind of a special case where you have a account that owns a a very large majority of the ram on the chain, and um so it would be night. The community would like to know who who controls all that ram, could suddenly just dump it all right.

N

So if you could get a, if you could ask brock, I'm sure everyone would appreciate it if he would give us a yes or no.

K

Yeah I'll add I'm 99 sure we don't, because he probably would have told us it's not like he keep like he hasn't had doesn't have a history of keeping secrets from the team as far as I can tell, but um but like again, I'm not I'm not him. So I can't 100 say that we don't, but I'm 99 sure that we don't I'll, ask if and get a direct response, but I don't think we own it like.

K

I said: if we, if they were going to transfer the account to helios, why did they transfer the funds before changing the keys? They could have just changed the keys and left the funds in the account, so that doesn't quite line up anyway.

N

Yeah hard to say.

B

All right um so before we get into fractally and dan and funding, um I did want to just uh highlight an article that dnf published uh last week about the litigation that they're potentially bringing forward with block one, um uh maybe zach you can post that link here in the in the stream chat.

B

But basically you know uh the enf is asking for uh community members to send them their stories about how they were negatively impacted by some promises that b1 might have made that they didn't then follow up on and how that impacted them or their business decisions or their investment decisions that kind of stuff.

B

So uh obviously I know many of you here have been with us since the very start of eos and I'm sure many of you have such stories that you could share. So please read that medium article, that jack just shared here in the stream chat, and then, if you think you have uh you know relevant information, send it over if you're, not sure you have relevant information, send it over anyways and and then you know, the enf can decide if it's relevant to include uh or not uh anything. You want to add to that. Zack.

E

uh Not really mostly, if you had business uh relationships or if um it's not so much like. Oh, I bought eos and it didn't go up like it's gotta, be actual like emails or discussions, um but dm me privately if you're, uh confused or there's a b1 litigation discord channel now also so um we could talk there, but I just want to be clear that it's not just like I bought token and it didn't go up. It's got to be like substantial is what we're looking for.

B

Yeah, I meant yeah business investments is what I meant when, but not token.

K

I bought eos and it substantially did not go up. I feel like that should count.

E

Join the club there's nothing wrong doing that so.

B

Thanks thanks jana for sharing that link to the channel so for people who want more information or want to discuss this topic jump in there.

B

um All right, so, let's go back to this original question. What was it.

B

uh Yeah are we going to address the elephant in the room regards to dan's future with eos? Is the enf planning on supporting fractally?

B

um First of all, before I invite eve or zach to talk about this topic, um you know anyone in this chat right now want to share some of their thoughts on the topic. First,.

B

I can start so when I was when I first read the you know: fractal white paper and the release that day kind of not impressed and kind of disappointed.

B

I think a lot of people had that same sentiment, uh but later on in the week, I actually took time to listen to the by wire interview that then layer mermaid, uh the first part, wasn't so impactful or relevant to me, but the second part I thought was pretty interesting. So uh if you guys haven't watched that second part of the bywire interview, I do uh I do strongly recommend you watch it.

B

I found myself uh agreeing with a lot of the things that dan was saying: maybe not everything, but but you know a fair amount um and it did get me. You know more excited for fractally than I was uh before.

B

Just after reading the white paper, which I read when it was like 2 a.m, and I was pretty tired- I probably didn't understand it all completely, um and you know in that interview dan does say that he thinks that the the reaction of the community you know was in part due to.

E

I think you just got cut out there.

K

It's cliffhanger moment.

F

Yeah, the suspense is great.

B

Great, um um I lost my cranial thought, uh oh yeah, but he was so dan was saying that, like he thinks that as people understand, fractally more and more then people would would be more excited once they recognize the potential value now. Obviously, the way dan communicates is not the most delicate and a lot, some of the things that he said was kind of insulting to the community. I you know specifically uh this one message that he wrote about the blue papers.

B

How you know enf spent a million dollars and all we got was design um now. I don't think he meant it as an insult to the people working on the blue papers, although it certainly came out that way. um You know, I think he meant it more as, like you know, I'm offering both design and delivery for for the specific price, um and then there's there's been a a bunch of other comments that that he has said that I I didn't. I didn't appreciate very much, uh but I try to give him.

B

You know the benefit of the doubt, although I know that you know he has received plenty of benefit of doubts.

B

Those are kind of my my thoughts on on the topic. I'd love to hear what you guys, what you guys, think and kind of if your thinking has evolved. You know over the last week.

M

Yeah hi, this is uh dogman dancing joy here um I um I've been learning a lot about fractally and following as much as I can and I'm super excited about it. um I participated in the first practically fractal on saturday.

M

There was about 10 of us who participated um and it was super cool and super exciting, um we'll be sharing the video soon and it was really fun, and I think, um basically, echoing what you were saying, staff about how it's like it's very complex, like there's a lot to learn and I feel like people were putting a lot of expectations on it like very quick and jump into conclusions, and it's been kind of uh all sorts of messy like how we get messy in this big decentralized community, where everybody has so many different opinions, but um yeah.

M

I think it has a huge amount of potential. I'm very excited to learn more about it, um and I hope that eos community and the fractality team and the beckley communities uh will work together closely and um I think it will be super helpful for both eos and everybody in the world um and practically can be like super super beneficial for eos.

M

So yeah uh I'm gonna be working a lot to try to help people understand that as well as working to understand it better myself and it's very exciting, as I said, and looking forward to sharing more talk about it more and also I'd like to say um that we're doing the fractals every week now and everyone's welcome to attend um we're doing the fractals currently or well. I say currently because I'm hoping and aiming and planning to start up more fractals.

M

So we can do multiple fractals every week, but for now we just started doing fractals every week on saturday at 1700 utc, which is noon in eastern time. So yeah, please come by, say: hi there's been links circulating around and if anybody needs any links feel free to reach out or I can post it in the stream chat or wherever. um And if anybody has any questions or anything like that um about how it went or how to join or or anything, I'm happy to discuss.

B

So is this like a eos focus fractal or what's the you know, common theme for the fractal.

M

um It's really like fractal focus fractal, so.

B

Wow, that's meta.

M

Yeah, so I mean it, it is a fractal of fractals, and so that's, um I think, fractals themselves are quite meta and quite fun like that. So yeah.

I

M

I I get the impression that um dan larimer who's been uh providing a lot of thought leadership for the frankly community. Obviously, because he's been, you know, starting in and wrote the white paper a lot of the white paper and has been doing a lot of talks, I get the impression that he very much wants to help eos, but he also doesn't want it to be dependent upon eos and he doesn't want it to be only for eos, because practically can empower eos and all eosio blockchains and all blockchains and all communities in the world.

M

um So just focusing on eos with the first fractal. I think in dan's opinion- and I think it makes sense- um would be kind of uh limiting the focus too much that that wouldn't be helpful in the long run for either eos or fractally um and in communities in general. The world as a whole.

M

um So there's actually been rules that then armor has um proposed or suggested to not talk about eos in the fractal chats just so we can stay on topic because obviously eos has a lot of baggage and history and sometimes goes into different directions. That wouldn't necessarily be helpful for building practically, so the fractal is focused on fracturing and fractals, and building fractal democracies or fractal communities, and it's also just focused on just like having fun and stuff.

M

So, of course, I think that there will be a lot of overlap with eos, but I think the main focus is fractals.

B

Cool makes sense.

B

I know you guys have opinions. I know you guys have opinions, let's, let's hear them.

T

I've got some opinions if my microphone's working.

B

Yeah coming in loud and clear.

T

Nice, uh this is andrew ware, I'm uh I'm actually in the uh the incubator that uh chris barnes uh mentioned earlier uh and just wanted to say it's. I found it incredibly valuable. So many thanks to helios for that.

T

But as far as fractally is concerned, uh I just wanted to say as a I'm sort of uh I'm not a coder, but I uh have lots of ideas and looking at fractally, the uh the empowerment that it allows for communities is profoundly exciting. To me, I've already thought of easily four or five different ways that I could totally change the communities that I'm in using this sort of governance model.

T

I just want to say, I'm very excited for it and I really hope hope that uh eos uh sort of chooses to adopt practically as or rather um chooses to become kind of the uh liquidity layer for fractally. I think that um aligns incentives for uh people who are holding eos tokens as well as people who are uh trying to get involved with fractals. So I just want to throw that out. There.

M

Yeah, I completely agree with that as well.

Q

Hey guys, so there was one point um during one of our cd calls where john was saying that it took him like a couple weeks to really digest it and he's like on the team and it's only kind of been a week, and so I think the expectation could have been delivered better, that this is going to take some time to understand.

Q

So I just hope that everyone just maybe gives it a little bit more time.

E

I just uh I got a lot of questions if you've been in the fractality chat, you've probably seen them, and I just feel like it's kind of like a one-sided conversation. That's my biggest issue is um the lack of mutual respect. I believe would be the great terminology and I'm I guess I'll have to join the fractally call it that's what was suggested to me so I'll be on that call on saturday to see. If they'll answer my questions then, but it's I'm trying to understand it. Better.

E

I've watched all of the dan videos um just trying to uh drink some more kool-aid on it. I want to be excited about it and that's what I'm really trying to do here by asking all these questions- and I guess my question goes back to anyone that was on the call on saturday- was the call about fractally in general or was it about? Was it like trying to test the fractal process? I'm kind of like talking about what you did the last week or was it more of like an ama with the fractally team.

M

So, um first off, thank you zach for asking all those questions. I've been reading, those and saving screenshots of them and that's super helpful. um I would also prefer a if the fractality team was more like was more outgoing open. I just saw that dan marimer answered some of your questions yesterday or this morning, which looked helpful, um but I also understand too, like dan larimer said that as he's been innovating but like he said, the reason why they didn't translate.

M

It was because they were like constantly working into the last minute on paper, and I can also understand why, like I think, it's vuela, who is um the pseudonymous, um who was a sudanese account uh john williamson in the faculty group who was saying like read, the white paper read the white paper.

M

um I think that it kind of makes sense that he's saying that, because it is just kind of that people can learn.

I

And a lot of people.

M

Are just asking a lot of questions that could be read by the white paper and every time that people answer questions that kind of takes away from time that they could be building. But at the same time the questions you've been asking. Zach are really great and well thought out, and so I'm happy to answer those, I'm not sure if you answered all of them, but I would like to see more definitive answers as well um and then to answer your question so um well.

M

First I'll say that it wasn't planned. I I don't think it was planned at least that there would be fractal during that day. I think it kind of happened.

M

I wasn't really aware that the event would be happening until that morning, mel um had put out a mail, and I think jay had put out a an invite or like thrown out the idea of having a meeting in general, but I think it was just to discuss and then that day, when I attended, I saw uh dan larimer there and dan larimer was kind of leading the conversation.

M

I mean we were talking, but he he had things that he wanted to say and he um suggested or proposed that we'd do the fractal event um there, and so that's basically, I think when we decided to do it. um We we spoke for about a half hour, um just talking about the the process and things like that, and then we did the fractal events.

M

We broke into two groups for about another half hour and then we got back on in a big group in another half hour and I have all the video files so and so we're just figuring out how to um share that we're thinking about making an account or something to share it in a good way with good branding and stuff.

M

But that was basically it so, like two-thirds of the call was just talking about fractal in general, and I suppose that might be an excellent time to uh to raise questions and talk about it, because the actual fractal events or like the fractal process only took a half hour, and during that fractal process we uh basically took five minutes each or so where we each just explained what we've been doing over the past week.

M

But the introductions were also a bit more general over, like I talked about what I've been doing for the past couple months or past couple uh or past year, or so, because I was kind of introducing myself to the group as well and and several other people did the same thing, but it was generally focused in the past week, but also focus generally what we were doing to help.

M

I also tied that into what I was doing over the past week, of course too, um and then we just um just kind of rated each other according to the process about what we did over the past week, I suppose, or what we thought was most helpful um and we didn't like explicitly state that it was just for like the fractal group or or just for this group or whatever, but I think there was kind of a general assumption or something that it was for fractally, um and then there was one other thing that I was going to say, but I'm not remembering what it was right now, oh um and then, and the other thing I was going to say was uh I I I can sense and understand why you were saying zach that um it felt like.

M

Maybe there wasn't much mutual respect because, like you're making these long and really thoughtful posts in the telegram, chats and they're not being responded to for a while and a lot of times, the responses have been short.

M

um So I can understand that, like I was saying before I mean the factory team and dan have also put a lot of care and time and a lot of their respect and value into making these white papers and so forth, and in a lot of cases, people weren't, respecting that people were asking very simple questions that could have been answered by by reading and that was kind of taking people's time.

M

So I can understand like some feelings of adversity or there or feelings of adversarialness or whatever, um but um during the calls it was like super fun.

M

It was super like super respectful, everybody was really excited to be there. I asked a few questions to dan. Several people did as well people. We were asking each other questions and so forth. So I feel like. Maybe this is kind of like a repeating theme that we've spoken about on these calls before, especially like a few months ago, when there was all the drama with the separation from b1, and we were like overloaded with chats and telegram, and people were getting kind of mad at each other.

M

Sometimes, and then we had calls, and we were like wow that felt so much better because, like we talked to each other as people and we were able to, um I don't know, just just kind of relax and be able to talk without having to type on our phones with our thumbs or whatever.

M

So I feel like in my experience, and I feel, like probably in everybody's experience, once we actually get on these video calls, rather than communicating with just our fingers on on the computer or whatever um that'll, be really helpful to help everybody understand it and also have a more fun time and get more excited about the process that enables this and help everybody feel more respected and yeah. Just just.

E

Percent, but when I invited them to the conversation, my post got deleted. That's not very respectful.

M

Yeah, I did see that, and I was wondering why I I guess the end of that I mean I've been surprised by how dan's been responding to it. I mean I also kind of see it like.

M

I was saying before because, like practically it's like a really huge and important idea, and it fractally gets kind of um like like attached to eos too much and then the block producers, who don't, who you know the fractal team, doesn't have control over if, like the founding, like ethos and culture of fractality, is like really closely attached to um to eos and then somebody out of our control like stops it or says they don't want or anything like that, then that can be bad perfectly and bad for the world as a whole, because faculty can be really helpful.

M

I think so jan put out some rules in the chat like I said that he he wants the chat to not be focused on eos, and then I suppose he did, that rule um or or executed on the rule and deleted your chat or somebody else with moderating. So I didn't like it like.

M

It may be kind of makes sense, but um and and also your message was great- I gave it a heart when I saw it and I gave dario's a fire, so I mean it'd be great if they attend, but also I don't know, I mean they've done a lot of work too, and he answered your questions and I think those are kind of the rules.

M

You want to play kind of make sense in some ways, and I would say please do attend the events, because it's super super fun and super helpful, and um there are things that maybe we don't feel respected. But I I I was going to finish one last sentence. um If that's john but um yeah I I was going to say um that it'd be helpful.

M

If, like we respect each other, to overlook things that we or I don't have overlooks the right word but I'll give each other the benefit of the doubt then, and then that we all want to help, and sometimes we might get misunderstood, because we have different priorities. But I would encourage people to give each other benefit of doubt and then come attend. The the fractals on saturdays, because I think they'll be really helpful and fun.

N

Okay, for first off the the eos community is out of benefits of doubts. We we ran out like a year or so ago, so you know that's just something you have to deal with, and secondly, um there's just really confusing messaging around fractally the idea that- and they say I've seen it repeated many times- it's like fractales for any blockchain and like blockchain agnostic or it's meant to be kind of agnostic.

N

But if fractal, if you know, if eos, if the eos community once practically deployed on it, then you know here's a list of demands and things that have to be changed.

N

You know it's like the the eos blockchain as it is, it's not fit for fractally I mean imagine if larimer went to the ethereum core developers and told them I want to deploy fractally, but you have to commit to you know cutting out 50 of your mining pools and you need a hard fork and add this new, pretty names account system. You know like they would laugh them out of the room right. So the fact that we're all why you know why do we? You know why is the eos blockchain being treated?

N

You know so differently than you know another platform if he really, if he really doesn't think that eos is good enough as it is, then I mean he should probably just make his own blockchain. That has everything exactly the way he wants it, but I think everyone in eos thinks, like uh you know like this, is probably a cool fractally. I'm sure it's a great process, um I'm in eden eden is great.

N

I think it's a it's a great concept and um there's no reason that fractally couldn't be rolled out in the same way that eden was rolled out. It's just an another application on eos and as it grows and improves over time, we could integrate it further and further into the core. If, if that's the direction, the community wants to take things but to just come out the door with uh like set of take it or leave it demands it's not really compatible with the way we operate at least that's the way. I feel.

M

Thank you, john, and thanks dan too, there's something that I wanted to say in response, but um I I also don't want to um be speaking too much. So um I would like to say this, but if anybody else would like to speak, then that's cool too and feel free.

M

But if nobody's saying anything, then I'll just respond here um so yeah um john.

M

A few different things so one the eos community has been through a lot, but in general, I think, like in on a personal level. Giving benefit of a doubt is very helpful and um the fractality team, the people on the fact with him and dan have given the eos community a lot and done a lot of great work for people, and so I think, they're deserving of respect and giving benefit of the doubt to what they're doing um the.

M

um I understand that I understand your concerns too, like I was saying to zach and a lot of things that I'm confused about, or I don't think that they're handling in the best way, um but I think I I don't know- maybe it is the best in some ways um so fractally and eos can help each other. A lot like people are mentioning starting a new chain, and I don't think that makes any sense.

M

I think that what we really should do and what we need to do what's best to do to make the best experience possible, is to find common ground and work out our differences and understand how fractally and eos can both empower each other. A huge amount can be super helpful for each other, because, if actually, when trying to do a different chain, start a new change like that, then they wouldn't have all the great support of all the great people in the us community.

M

Then these relationships had been built over years and, frankly, wouldn't have the funding from eos inflation and practically wouldn't have all the great technology that's already been built into eos, maybe to some extent they would, if, since open source and stuff, but there there's a whole lot of benefits. That eos provides to practically that, frankly, can't get elsewhere, and the same is also true for eos and vice versa.

M

That there's nothing else like practically out there and like I died in the eos and I've been following eos for what fractally and what fracturing enables enables communities to empower communities or people to empower communities, communities to empower people, communities to empower creators in ways that I don't think that there's any other application or platform that comes anywhere close to what practically is capable of, and I think that it can grow and be super super like profoundly helpful for eos and all communities in general.

M

So I think it's definitely the best interest for the eos community and for fractally to work together and to figure out how to work together um and then what you're saying before about the demands. So one uh joshua seymour um posted something like a couple weeks ago or not a week ago. It was a couple weeks ago because it's been a while with a few days ago. I guess about like how he respected that there being the fracturing team was being straightforward in the um I don't know what they call a demand or or request.

M

It might just be a request, and also someone that I think might be overstated because, like dan larimer said on an interview, he wants a commitment. He doesn't necessarily want like people to do it right now, with the full amount of inflation and block producers now, but he he wants a commitment from the network that this is the path that we're on. So that's the way it was written.

M

I can understand how people interpret it to be like a demand, but the way he said it um and also the way it was written kind of left it open to interpretation and when he said it on interviews like bywire or wherever he said it. He said like what he wants is a firm commitment, and I wrote about this quite a bit as I was super inspired reading everything.

M

So I wrote a bunch of notes that I haven't shared mostly, but um there's a there's, a bunch of reasons why I think it makes sense like one, the dan and the eden delegates on the eden chief delegates in the call talked about like the gold mining effect. Like you, you want to start a system with a lot of funding, so it makes it really worth it for people to come, because that can provide this spark like to start the fire and to get it to grow. Really quick.

M

Whereas if you just do with like a small amount of funding, then you might have more of a fizzle out.

M

So there's some like growth reasons to start it um in a large way and then also as far as like the uh block producer like um control, when the proposal to have practically uh to appoint block producers, um it's also very valuable for like fractals to have autonomy, um fractals aren't able to be dows or dax unless they have autonomy, and if the foundation that they're building upon is ultimately like plutocratic governance, that the fractals don't have control over which it currently is.

M

I mean I think eos is great many ways and much more decentralized than other chains, but it still is out of the control of the community members in many respects. And if the community starts with no governance power, then it's kind of like putting it off and living with dependencies on people who the communities and the people aren't sure if they can trust and it's kind of like building on sand a little bit.

M

So it sounds like kind of extreme, maybe, um and I can see how it could be like shocking to people to hear those things, especially if they're not expecting it, but coming from frackley's perspective about having thought about this idea really well or really like like thoughtfully for a while and built this for a while, and it seems like it will work and it seems like it'll, be really exciting. I've also been working on building eden creators and building, edens and so forth.

M

So I've also been thinking about this very much for the past year or so, and I've been super impressed with the fractal ideas like coming with that confidence. I imagine that faculty has that this will work and then coming with those understandings that for it to work and for it to be really helpful.

M

The communities need to be autonomous and they need to be well funded, or at least that's super helpful and then coming from what dan said about like you know, maybe it came off wrong because they're in a rush, but it seems like his intentions, are very good to be helpful and he said he's looking for commitments, not necessarily like everything to happen at once.

M

I think that it makes sense when you look at it like that, and I hope that makes sense and- and I hope that we can see it that way or at least see it that way enough to give each other benefit about and give it a chance and like just try meeting at these events.

N

I mean a dog man. I I really. I really appreciate your enthusiasm, but I I don't think that you're. I don't personally find your arguments to be satisfactory to me. So I don't know. Maybe someone else can speak up.

M

Thank you for letting me know john, and I very much appreciate hearing your feedback as well.

U

Hey good evening.

M

M

I just want to check: is the audio still working, because I'm not hearing anything right now.

C

K

I don't know awkward science time playing.

J

Chicken and you're the first to speak, audio's.

E

Working, I see john's on the call williamson. What's up man, hey.

A

E

Good good, we want to drink. Some kool-aid tell us about.

E

Because I understand that we don't know as much as you probably do.

A

Yeah, there's, I don't know like there's just so many different perspectives that you can take on it as well and, like you know, a lot of cool uh selling points so yeah like even now, I'm still thinking you know discovering new ways how it's you know cool or you know what kind of side effects it creates. But I think one thing that I really like is that you know it's it's the independence and you know if people come together and they want to build something, they can go ahead.

A

You know and and do it and they can do that independently with their own currencies. They don't need to convince. You know any investor, whether it's the enf or you know. Anyone else to you know, put money in them directly. You know you can just straight up, say: hey we're we're going to build this, we're we're not going to be worried about you know who gives us money or who doesn't give us money, we're just going to provide.

A

You know value here and then those who appreciate the value and see that that value can can invest into. You know relays that you know hold hold their respect tokens and uh and go from there. So there's nothing in that sort of there's. There's no rope blocks, essentially in creating a dow and trying to make a change.

A

I think um one one thing, though, um that doesn't get sort of spoken about enough, especially like with the sort of two percent inflation and where it's going kind of thing is that you know it goes into like a relay right and like 80 percent of the respect uh that is, that is generated from the fractal has to you know, be earned, um and then it has to go through an escrow account um which can take.

A

Should I forget how many, how much time now, but it can take uh either a few weeks or a few few months before that, actually, you know comes out as well, um but yeah.

A

I think uh one thing that people forget is like: there's inflation and then there's like effective inflation like you can have you know, 40 percent inflation on eos going to an account? That's you know locked and no one can access you know. Is it really 40 inflation? Like you know, it's it's more about effective inflation.

A

That one needs to think about like how much of an inflation is going into circulation and uh and when you're, putting it into a relay, where there's financial incentive to actually stake into the relay to to get more and there's 144 hour. You know delay on pulling out of the relay and there's a lot less in. You know uh eos actually going into um you know if effective inflation uh than than you would think.

N

I don't think um I'm not I'm not personally concerned much about the inflation I mean. I know, there's lots of change with much higher market cap with you know: 20, plus percent inflation. The question is how much inflation it's. What's the? um What economic or what value? Do you get out of that inflation right? If you can turn that, if you can turn that economic inflation into uh more value for the chain, then it's not a problem and it sounds like fractale could do that right, so yeah, an extra you know adding two percent.

N

It's probably not that big of an ask if uh fractally you know, delivers.

A

Yeah yeah um yeah in terms of value again the way that I kind of saw it was kind of like the um it sort of creates like a gold rush effect. So you know, if you think of like old towns that you know used to be, you know, have gold mines there, essentially the the first few people that that arrive there and discover gold, like that, you know they might get paid.

A

Well because, like there's, not a lot of you know competition they're, the first people that actually know that there's gold around as soon as work gets out that there's gold. Then suddenly you get you know a gold rush and you've got people moving from the cities or whatever or flocking to this one place uh to get it and then, once once that happens, there's a lot more competitive, which means that when you do go to the you know the weekly meetings of a fractal, you know you're you're up against.

A

You know more people who you know who might you're trying to contribute. You know more value in order to get more respect and so you're attracting more and more. You know talent, uh as as that happens and uh and those who do sort of reach the top are you know, contributing sort of you know a lot of value uh there as well.

A

uh So that's one thing that I really liked and, like that's you know the effects that the you know, the two percent inflation uh c could have is is knowing that you know uh respect. Can it can eventually lead to to eos? But then again you know that's that's purely for the people that want to cash out, and I think uh a lot of people will love you know, being the community part of the community.

A

You know as as we are you know in in this call today that don't want to you know, sell they that they, like the the respect. You know tokens.

A

um You know it's kind of like brownie points in a sense they want to hold on to that, that you know that they don't want to sell and so by hodling uh they can put into the rex pool, and then you know take it out of circulation. You know even more so there's less like you know, respect tokens and circulation and so again the less respect tokens the less the ability to even you know, get the eos out of the eos. You know relay as well.

T

uh I've got a thought about this as well. If, uh if no one's got some something to say um I to me uh it, it seems like one of the under-appreciated aspects of the value that fractally is creating with this eos inflation is that um it's essentially any of these fractals are going to be pegged to eos. So if any of those fractals increase in value, then yields will also increase in value.

T

um So by building these really cool systems and making them very available to people those people want to come in and then they will build value within their fractal and without even knowing it, they will be generating value for uh for the eos token.

T

um But I I also wanted to address one of the other uh sort of, or rather put some perspective, on sort of the leadership level that we're discussing how it's sort of come down from on high and when you look at something like ethereum, which was mentioned, like ethereum's, moving to proof of stake and basically middle experience.

T

uh Buterin's like all right, we're gonna move to proof of stake, and so then they build this difficulty bomb into the code that will uh make it. So miners at some point can no longer solve any of the cryptographic puzzles, and that was just basically something I don't know.

T

I I mean the ethereum uh miners didn't vote on, that they wouldn't have any interest in it and so to me, all blockchains, except for bitcoin, are uh basically uh authoritarian, and this to me seems like a good way to move past that, but just to give some perspective on things, because you did mention the theory so just run that out there.

M

Yeah, those are great points too. Thank you for sharing, um and another thing I'll also add too, that you inspired me to think about. There was something that um dan larimer has repeated a few times um and a lot of other people have said it as well too, and I mean it's kind of obvious in some ways, but it makes a lot of sense like it's best when, like people follow their passions and um to do what they're passionate about, because when people are passionate about things, then they can act like with.

M

I don't know: they're like complete natural instinct and, like they're, complete being impassioned about it. um So the fact that, like dan larimer and the faculty team put this out there um and had the eos back where they proposed this, like they're doing what they're passionate about and then um the community can choose to accept that or not accept that or to make a counter offer or whatever.

M

But I think that it's good for people to share with what they're passionate about and to to lead and then see if people will follow and try to get people to follow.

M

And then also that point about like um about aligning interests with mutual respect that you said true, that's like super super powerful and super helpful, and I feel like that hasn't really been focused on very much here. That's something that uh dan armor um explained really well at the end of the interview from like a month or two ago with patrick from nova crypto, um I shared it at some point.

M

I showed a clip about it, but dan larimer shared, like this beautiful analogy, with, like liquidity, pools, um kind of like being like trees, where you have a fractal on the top of a tree that goes out to all the branches and all the leaves, and you have a fractal in the bottom of the tree, which is the roots that extend to the soil and the liquidity is the um the tree or like the sap. I guess it's the trunk.

M

It's where, like the two fractals meet um the top of the tree in the bottom of the tree, and it's like how they're able to trade things that they need. The top of the tree gets the sun and so forth, and it trades it down. The bottom and the bottom gets the nutrients in the soil and trades it up. So I know maybe it's just kind of going like a poetic rant or something like that.

M

I'm not sure if it totally applies, but I think it's a really beautiful analogy, and um also during that analogy leading up to the analogy he talked about how, um when you combine two tokens into liquidity, pool or mutual respect, they're both pegged to each other, um like if one token appreciates in value, because people respect that token, then the other token in the liquidity pool, does as well and in the fractally proposal. um From what I understand there is a multi-token or multi-respect um mutual respect, liquidity pools with up to 12.

M

um So that means that eos will be in many of these um and there'll be other um respect and communities, and whenever one community does well that causes buy pressure for eos. So, like I've, been building communities and kind of like roots or seeds of communities, for a bunch of like music things and creative things um and fun things I have a an organization. I've been building called playtube is global for the past.

M

Like four years, where, like I'm planning to make youtube channels for tools and for musical instruments and uh well, a lot of these channels are made already but they're kind of just root, and, like I'm just saying this for one example, because obviously I'm just one person but like when what fractally enables is for people like me, like creators or community leaders, or anybody who has some youtube channel or like creative passion or some community or some gold to help the world or create cool stuff in some way to like connect with their community and have like a built-in process.

M

That works really well to empower that community and then, when that community succeeds, then it helps eos, succeed too, because if people respect the token people are buying that total respect, the community and people are buying their respect. The token price goes up and that causes eos to appreciate as well, because they're in that mutual respect, look really cool.

F

But isn't that the case with, like any other application that uses eos, you know if if another application comes along that uses eos, that would also be adding to the value of eos. I I just don't see a real, strong argument.

T

Well, it wouldn't be adding directly to the value of eos in the same way that fractally is because factory is connected through those liquidity pools, whereas if you just have a adapt, that's super popular sure you might drive drive some sort of uh by pressure, but it's it's not as intrinsically linked as if you had them, sharing liquidity pools.

F

Excellent okay. Thank you.

M

Right now, like we have apps like upland that do a huge amount of transactions on eos, but that doesn't really result in much buy pressure for eos like a very small amount, because they just need enough eos to pay for resources, at least as far as I understand. But when you have a liquidity pool and liquidity pools can exist like on d5 box, there's lots of the creative pools with eos and that that has the same effect there. But this is having it built in and make it much easier make it no code make it.

M

So anybody can start a community with a token with minimal liabilities and like awesome, superpowers to help grow their community really well and have that built in liquidity, pool and built in type built-in dynamic of mutual respect.

B

Well, this is some good conversations.

C

I keep waiting for the music to start.

A

Someone's biggest concern about fractally.

N

I mostly I don't understand why, there's all these demands, packaged in with with fractal demands on the core system.

A

Sorry, when you say demands, you mean like the business demands, or are you talking about technical sorry,.

N

Mostly uh sorry yeah mostly just kind of technical upgrades at the system level that fractally apparently absolutely needs.

A

All right yeah, um what about like yeah fractally the framework, I meant to say sorry.

T

Just for clarification, I think there's only one actual system, contract change, everything else is just sort of an open source like uh sort of they will will build it, and then people can use it if they want to kind of thing. I may be mistaken.

M

uh I might also be speaking out of my scope and knowledge here too, um because I don't know all the technical details, but as far as as far as I understand with like the nft upgrades and the naming upgrades and uh the other two upgrades that were involved, I could see a lot of benefits in those. So one thing, there's a lot of benefits to eos as a whole, like the nft system, seems awesome, um as do some of the other ones. um I think in the I don't know one of the interviews.

M

I was like really surprised by just how well these things work together or like in several of the interviews. So like it's not just fractal. These can be really helpful and I think that they might be separate to some extent um and then also.

M

Not to get off on a tangent, I'm not sure if it's exactly what you're asking about john, but um I I I listened to the interview or the talk with the chief delegates um where aaron was voicing concerns about like the naming account system and aaron was saying that was one of his biggest qualms or concerns with the um system, and I'm not sure if that is something that, like it's necessary for the factory team.

M

If they've said that they need this or not, um but I can actually see like coming at it from a person who is a creator and a community builder and who's looking at it from like.

M

I don't know that level of like interacting with people and inviting people, and also wanting to be able to make the right name and like make a name like make the best experience as possible in the moment where, like you, have like a great name that doesn't have weird symbols or anything like that um and make it really easy for people to do the same, like that's really important as a like people who aren't technical but are interested in just like doing fun stuff.

M

With their community, so there's a lot of understand about like how it could work exactly, and so I can't speak to all the demands technically, but I can absolutely see why that's something that, like the fractal team, thinks is really important and the other upgrades also seem like very valuable as well.

A

Yeah well, one of the part of the upgrades is just tokens like tokens in general. The way that we do tokens on eos is so so stupid, like the esio.token contract was designed.

A

You know to to support, you know hundreds, you know as many tokens as you want so, but because there was, you know the sort of lack of governance on how to hand out you know, symbols based on that. You know contract and everything else. uh You know it didn't work out, and so then we set the standard of well. If you want to have a token on a yes, you got to deploy your own.

A

You know token contract, so, despite you know being on on on using a chain where it's you know as flexible as it is, and the smart contract system is so good, we've got so many people just deploying the exact same code. Again and again, you know with around costs. You know with that, rather than hosting tokens on on the one contract and there's dangers as well, because people people assume that a token on eos works similarly to a token on ethereum, but it it it it doesn't.

A

You know if you still, you know, have the uh the dap owner of the token contract. You know with the keys the to the account like technically they're your tokens, but they're, not really because you know at any time he can.

A

You know say no, I'm gonna freeze your account uh or you know I'm gonna to delete the contract or whatever it might be like he can do a rug pull um at at any moment whether it's you know against every ear token balance, holder or uh or one person in particular, so part of the proposal.

A

With this new token contract system is bringing back uh a standard where, if you wanted to create a token just you know, do it on the uh on the new token system and then the abilities that you reserve over the token would be. um You know what you call it like specified.

A

So if you know you don't, you know see the need to recall tokens as a token issuer. Then you can turn that feature off and then that's off. You know forever.

T

Not to mention like I got scammed because uh someone sent me some voice, tokens and said voice and the tokens were named voice, but they weren't a voice contract and so because you can just arbitrarily name tokens and in order to verify that it's the right token you have to go in and actually look in the contract make sure it's the right contract. I see a value there as well, um but uh I did want to say john.

T

You were asking about what um concerns people have the one concern that I have about fractally um and it seems to be mostly in the back end- is the complexity and based on what I've heard described about the process. It doesn't seem like the front end user interface or user experience is particularly complex, but that is the one thing that concerns me. That's the one thing that I could see preventing this from actually being adopted by a large number of non-blockchain users.

A

um Complexity of the back end, could you elaborate a bit on that? Do you mean like what happens behind the scenes regards to the token and stuff like that or.

T

I'm talking about primarily like uh so you got these liquidity bowls and they can be connected to each other and um they each have relays associated with them, um and so my hope is that the user does not have to know all those things and they can just sort of go in and just press a button, and then they have a token. They have liquidity. They have a decentralized governance structure. Basically everything they would need to have create their own decentralized, autonomous organization.

A

Yeah yeah we'll definitely utilize the you know the front end uh as much as possible and abstract. You know uh as much as we can for the user, um but I think part of the magic of blockchain is is d5. uh You know the cool apps are going to be using d5 one way or another, so I think in the future of blockchain having a little bit of knowledge about what a relay is, is just gonna, be um you know a sort of stock standard thing like you know. Where would blockchain be?

A

You know d5b today. If we do not have you know relays, um but how we can communicate the relationships between those relays yeah, it could be uh done a lot better than what we kind of see in uh in in products today.

A

So again, if you had like a little graph and then you know, maybe your fractal has an icon and then there's like a line that goes to like a relay and then from that relay you know is, is another fractal and you can see an illustration of how you know every fractal you know might be linked and you know the relationships between them. um I think that will go. You know a long way uh in terms of user experience, um but yeah. You know your rewards and everything like that will just be displayed.

A

You know to you as you go through the system, your your weekly rounds and and and and all that as well. As you know, council actions and stuff.

T

I'm I'm essentially just I'm imagining I've got this podcast that I do, and I was talking with them about this fractally idea. They seemed really excited about it as a means for bringing other people in and making it sort of a decentralized thing, but I don't have to explain what d5 is, especially because I don't really understand d5 that well to all of these people who have no exposure to blockchain at all. You know, um but uh I I do I I have uh confidence that that is a priority for the fractality team as well.

T

So um I just wanted to make it known that I see that as a uh the primary sticking point potentially.

A

Yeah yeah there's like there's a lot of cases where you don't need to talk so much about relays like you could just say. Oh it's like you know, you're able to create tokens token swapping relationships between you know a a fractal uh to another or again you know it. It depends on on what level you know you're going with as well. If it were a elevator conversation, I probably wouldn't even mention you know relays or if I had to be very, very lightly done, um but yeah how you can.

N

Would the improved token contract help with this situation with this scammy voice tokens? Because I mean I guess anyone could purchase the voice, um the symbol in the auction right and then they could issue a scam voice token, on this new contract. From what I understand.

A

Yeah well with it, you could have like a token registry uh and stuff like that and then, depending on you know how you want governance to to to be done. uh If you want some sort of you know, white listing feature so that the community has to support before you go on the registry.

A

um That could be a thing technically, you could buy a symbol, but you know uis might not actually support. You know its use or you know, display its logos and stuff and until you've you know been, you know, whitelisted uh as as well, and you know, got community proper community adults.

N

I mean isn't that how the current system works.

A

uh To a level yeah, but I'm not aware of a proper governance system behind it, nor this data being on chain, uh and even if the you know, smart contracts, don't need to rely on. You know what the logo is. For the token simply having you know, proof that you know uh the account that that owns the token itself uh and it's.

N

Not it's not standardized, it's not you're right. It's not standardized, um but you know, for example, blocks has like a a github repo where they have the logos and everything. That's someone has to merge that in for the logo to show up on their site, so there's a little. You know it's a very basic governance right there, um so I mean, but that sounds useful right like let's have some kind of a permissioned governed, a token uh registry.

N

That's under the context of a of an account right um I mean that doesn't have to be a system level account.

A

It yeah it doesn't have to be system level, but you definitely get benefits out of doing system level uh as soon as it's not system level, people then ask well you know, or a lot of people just want. They want to know what the official you know. Contract is rather than trusting a third party um to to do it or again in the event of hacks.

A

You know, as typically, if you have a system level contract, you have more trust that you know it's going to have the attention of the bps and and and the enf to uh to take care of where, when it's you know third-party contracts, where it's written by you know third parties and maintained by third parties to then get. You know uh any bp intervention that that you may need uh in the future as well.

A

Like you know, if we have, um if we had a contract with, you know relays on where you know anyone can create a relay on a system level contract. There was a hack there. You know you you, you would want to think that you know that the pps and enf would would you know, try mitigate any any hacks or or whatever you know there, um but but again, if it was just some other third-party, you know contracts, then it's going to be a harder thing to do.

E

A

E

Was if you guys remember when bancor closed up shop on eos, I think they broke the the shintai resource model because it relied on this third-party contract that was being maintained by a third party team and there's really not nothing that could be done about. I think they just had to everyone's just stopped using it. So that's, I believe, a similar example to what you're describing can be avoided with the system contract.

A

Yeah and and same with, I don't know like sx volts, like you know, eos nation got got, you know for bp intubation, because you know technically they'll third party, you know thing, but you know really that could have easily just been a system-level contract where anyone could have created their own. You know vault like, and then you know the the politics. You know that there would have been no hesitation. There would have been no politics about. You know, fixing a system-level contract.

A

If there's a bug in a system level contract, you don't need to ask the community hey. Should we fix this? Is this? Is this okay how's this going to look? It's a bloody system, a little contract like it's, your job, fix it and fix it now, kind of thing. um So yeah as and and again like you know why it seems very dumb to you know, write your own code to do the same thing. So again, if we got many parties that need you know some sort of utility, then we we should all share in.

A

In that you know one contract and you know not remake the wheel. It's only if you're doing you know very particular things or you're deviating from a protocol, so much that it would warrant. You know having your own unit contract for it, but in most cases you can get away with you know a shared system like it should be considered somewhat negligent to to have your own d5 contract.

A

Using you know the bank or protocol um you know, but by yourself and not just using a system level. You know implementation like you should get. You know.

A

People asking you know, questions and giving you for that kind of thing.

N

Yeah, I mean, I think I just think this whole conversation like this is a big topic right, a system level token contract and system level bank or pools like we could have. We could talk for outs, you know it's, it's a large task to build, implement and deploy these things and then also to have them running at a system level.

N

um So that's that's kind of the biggest concern is like it's not that it's a bad idea. It's just that, like you're kind of the the fractally team is kind of throwing all these concepts at us all at the same time, and um when really like, we need a road map of like how we're going to actually implement these things like. Obviously, if we, how would you govern this contract at the system level if fractally wasn't operating that system level?

N

First right and if fractally needs this contract operating first and how does fractal run without it already being deployed? How do we properly test it and make sure that doesn't have any bugs? You know things like that.

N

So still lots of questions on my.

H

End, oh and accepting something like that: what is the plan moving forward? How do the apis better support it? What do the sdks do to make it so that other people use them effectively like that stuff needs to be considered before we built the base system? Otherwise we just end up with power up again.

N

I mean yeah the power up, it's a great example where it was deployed, but we didn't have any tools or documentation to to really take advantage of it. You had exchanges that had no idea what was going on and they just stopped working, because no one told them what was happening right and no one had any way to just plug in something up. Just you know, it should have just been like update your eos js get the latest version at usjs and it's solved for you right, but that just never happened.

N

So how do we prevent that from happening again? Well, it's going to take thousands of man hours just for you know just for this new token thing. Just for this new bancor thing, not to mention everything else right.

O

Another topic was the live. You john, you mentioned removing liability, so let's say getting a system to adopt this bank or relay that will benefit fractally, but frankly has no liability on any loss of funds.

O

So, in the case of loss of funds, let's say: there's a bug: there's multiple millions of dollars that are that are lost due to a code error. Is nobody liable for that loss? Is fractionally now liable, or is it just nobody's fault.

A

Well, who's liable at the moment, if you know an eosio system, contract goes to, and people and.

O

Systems, but now we have talking about banker, pools we're talking about liquidity, pools right so right now, the only the only system contract that has assets is rex, so of course block one bill rex. Yes, it could have issues, it's been battle tested for three four years, but now we're introducing new system contract liabilities right asset management so who who's taking the liability on loss of funds?

O

If the pools kind of break or is it nobody's responsibility.

A

Yeah, well, I would say it would be bp, like every other contract that, like they accept liability for system contracts. At the moment they accept liability. For rex they have set liability for.

O

So fractal will be demanding that liability onto the onto the block producers, which will be another additional ask right.

A

I imagine it would be, but, but before I you know, speak anymore like I'm just speaking as you know yourself being a community member, I'm not you know trying to speak on behalf of practically just so. Everyone, like you know, knows that none of this should be an official. uh You know statement also. um I also had a bloody what you call it a pomelo thing for this before I even you know, spiked it down on the idea of a public um utility contract of you know. Bancor relay so yeah definitely been a supporter.

A

This idea, before dan started talking about it as well.

V

But understanding that all that doesn't go to the system contracts, just the the only the only thing that goes to the system. Contracts are the token standards. Isn't it.

T

That's how I understood it as well.

A

Well, they will be treated as like system. You know contracts in a sense that yeah, if you know something, goes wrong, it's you know the bps that have you know, deployed it, and so it's the bps to you know recover same way. They do with every other contract if there were a problem with the power up contract or the token contract, as is today.

N

So so, going back to that, like worst case scenario, that dennis was talking about where there's millions of dollars on the line because of some system level contract problem. Today, it's up to the bps to take care of that. Under the new fractale system, half of those bps are appointed by the head. The head, fractal right.

A

uh Yeah, I guess in the proposal he has an 11b piece.

N

So if, if I'm in the head fractal and I'm responsible for appointing bps- and I appoint a bp, that's malicious or incompetent- and they end up doing something wrong, uh which loses everyone money, while I'm on zoom people know who I am, people can look me up and sue me right, whereas under the current system you have as a block producer, you have plausible deniability, because the system elected you not an individual.

A

Yeah, but isn't the system just token holders so.

N

Right but you can't point at a specific person who elected this bp or that bp.

A

So you're saying that it's so yeah, what's the difference between of you know, being a public, you know person who's held accountable for someone, that's anonymous, that's just you know, faceless and has a bunch of you know: eos eos tokens plus.

N

I'm just talking about the system. That's what what you're seeing anonymous people who have tokens? That's! That's called the system.

A

Well, yeah, I don't know, I I feel like you could be a bit more descriptive than the system. The system is the system's code.

N

Someone, you know someone, you know someone yeah.

A

But it's still voted by the votes. You know made of the token holders.

N

Right just like miners, you know people say that it's miners there's mining pools, but there's there's a human being behind every every hash on bitcoin right. But you don't talk about the human beings.

A

Yeah, you know proof of work. Kind of style is a lot more. It's less human orientated, like you know, as part of the appeal to some people, that you can just turn on the computer. There's no more politics. The only politics is, you know your hash rate. um If you know if it goes untouched.

N

Right I mean dpos is, is kind of similar to that in that way,.

A

Yeah, which, which has been you, know very costly to the community because obviously he hasn't built what we've wanted to build without the leadership. But you know, but that now.

N

Understand what I'm saying so, you understand the point I'm making.

A

Yeah yeah. Well I understand the point, but I don't see much of an argument. You know.

N

You want us to go from. You want us to go. You want us to go from like a pseudo-anonymous system, type election scheme to a more of a federation, uh proof of authority type election scheme.

I

A

Would you call it proof of authority? It's basically, you know. Whoever is you know on the council, the you know of the fractal which.

N

Is how the authority is elected, isn't relevant.

A

Well, it is otherwise you can just compare it back to you know token holders you could say you know yeah. No, it's just the same thing you could just say um dpos today is is proof of authority. You know it's, it's it's irrelevant. It's just. You know, governance system that we've picked with you know token weighted you know staking, but again. Another thing that we need to talk you know remember is that it's like 11 bps again to make system level. You know changes.

A

You need 15 out of the the 21., so you know, theoretically, you would only need what like four four bps.

A

I don't know I can't do mass, but you only need a few amount of good pps, plus the the normal pps that we see today to you know make make a change like the prime fractal and the 12. You know, council members, which could you know theoretically consist of 144 team members would have to screw up a fair bit to elect so many bad block. Producers that you wouldn't be able to you know have these enough leadership to recover from a mass system level.

A

You know hack and again many bps like, like you know, I think, with eos nation that we've seen in the past. You know they can lead the charge and then just you know, dish out the information to the other bps and the other bps can be like yeah makes sense, or you know whatever you know that they can throw their head into the ring. But you know a lot like burrito suggests or pareto. You know, uh 20 of the people do 80 of the work.

A

I wouldn't be surprised if we saw that kind of behavior in uh in in the 21 bps as well.

N

Yeah I mean I agree and I think most likely that the the head, fractal or whatever the prime fractal would would elect good vps and it probably wouldn't be a problem, uh but I do think I do think that it's a legitimate concern that uh there's some extra liability there's a shifting of liabilities, that's happening that hasn't really been properly addressed.

A

Yeah, there's definitely a well you're, definitely more exposed than you would be being a you know, faceless person, you know behind a computer uh yeah. Definitely, but you know, I think the the transparency is is what blockchain is is about and it was far outweigh the you know with the level of accountability that we can get and again you know if there were any badly elected bps again, you still got you know, 12. You know real humans that are meeting every week.

A

They can easily have you know some emergency council meeting and you know vote out the bad bps that aren't you know doing what they expect them to do. In terms of you know, fixing a system you know level crash or or whatever to recover. You know funds or whatever the the job may be. I think that's far more democratic than uh you know the sort of current system, where you know he who owns the most tokens, has the power.

F

Quick question here, for frankly, it seems so the idea is that uh you have these meetings and- and someone gets elevated to another group which then gets elevated to another group uh in order to achieve the most funding uh or or I'm sorry, uh the the bulk of the budget. If I understand correctly, whereas in eos we use proof of stake right, so once you get to that top round to determine who you know which projects are going to get the blind share, the the budget, I guess it, it just seems like the valued.

F

The thing that would be valued to get to the person to that point is more charisma than than like work, you're, essentially having to sell your idea. All the way up and in the last round is going to be a fairly strong group of charismatic people that are were able to sell their idea to the to the rest of the different fractals.

A

Well, it's it's ideas so much that you're selling. The question is: what have you done in the past week like work wise? What what value have you brought to the community so.

F

Well, I've worked with a fair amount of people in my history, where you know some people are better at explaining that than others. You know some people might, I might not think of you know if I closed out 100 tickets within a support system that might not have the same weight as you know, uh designing a new product or something like that, but I feel like I could really sell it really well and say.

F

Well, I also saved these 150 people all this time and you know I could make a a relatively strong case for it if I really had to so I feel like, but with proof of stake. It's more. I feel like it's more about the faith in the people that are the block producers to actually keep the system running and there's a there's, a history with that block producer of being reliable and proving that they can keep their system up and running, and you can prove that out.

F

So I feel like that's, that's more the value of of having a a proof of stake where the person, the people that are doing the work and the people that were voting into these block producer positions, have a responsibility and an obligation to help keep things running, whereas in fractally it seems like you're just having to make the best point possible and those are going to be the people that are going to be handling things, and maybe I'm I'm oversimplifying.

F

But I'm- and this is my my personal gripe with fractale- is that it if you're releasing something like this and it's a game-changing idea? That's something! That's supposed to change the world! You have to make it universally understandable to you know, I'm an average user at best, and I have not been convinced that this is a strong idea that I want to dedicate my time and resources into, but instead of shying away from this, is you know this opportunity to to win a person over it feel like there's a lot of well.

F

You know it's there's a lot of resistance, a lot of friction. um I really think it frackly really wants to go far with this. They need to come up with a an onboarding experience for people, whether they're, you know veteran or noob or, however they want to do it, but the communication is critical. It's so important and it's you know if I were to start a business with a uh and I was going to use visa or something like that. I'd talk to visa and say: okay, well, you're going to be handling my transactions.

F

So let's have a conversation, get something together and we'll talk about how we're going to do this. But it's you know if we're this is going to be being built on the eos blockchain. I would imagine you'd want to talk to the people that are involved in it. It just the the friction and again this is my first dan larimer experience.

F

So I I'm relatively new in all this, but uh it just seems to be that I I understand, there's history and there's past and and that's unfortunate, but at the end of the day this is this is a business and we need to be able to put a lot of that aside and if you have a product- and these are we're going to be the people that are going to be- uh you know uh ingesting it or taking it in or using it or even utilizing it for other things.

F

um You know it just seems to be that it it's not there yet. You know for me personally, I I understand you know it's a revolutionary idea. I think the idea is great. I think it's a fantastic idea as a possible method of governance, but it just seems like this execution is not quite there, so, but again, that's just again: average user. So.

A

Yeah, I think, there's simply better ways that uh you know fractally could have been. You know, communicated and and and stuff like that. uh It was definitely a trade-off between you know just, but also you know getting it out there like. It would have been easy easy to spend another six months. uh You know designing, uh you know further in stuff in the white paper, but also you know new graphics and you know better ways to communicate it. You know, I guess that was a trade-off of just you know.

A

When do we actually want to you know, let the community know, and finally, you know give them the information um that they've been waiting for as well. um I think there's there's going to be a lot of yeah. Friction, uh there's always friction in in a white paper alone. Like you know, the majority of people that are a fan of bitcoin were not sold of. You know on on bitcoin, based on the white paper they're based on bitcoin, based on the experience.

A

You know that that they had, you know the ui that came up and and and what they'll be able to. You know that they could get out of it. You know it's not like they. They sat down and read the white paper and got thought. Oh now. Now I get it kind of thing. uh I think a similar thing would would be seen in in fractally, where um you'll have a small.

A

You know um group of people that that do consume the white paper do spend the time you know wrapping their heads around it with the relays and all the other sort of you know mental expense that you've got to go to to to understand it and then, as fractally becomes like a product and you can actually get your hands on it, you can see it in action. You got pretty graphs, you've got pictures and uh you know you can navigate around menus and see how people have interacted with each other in the proposals and stuff.

A

That they've made be a lot more easier to to understand. Like you know, the way that I see it you'll be able to learn what fractally is just by you know, opening opening up the ui and just you know, navigating around the menus. You know enough and seeing a few little graphics and then get a you know, a good enough. Understanding of you know how it works and what you can do to get involved uh as as as well, and the things that you do need to know will be explained.

A

You know uh either either through the methods of the design or information and the stuff that you don't need to know. Can you know just be abstracted, you know to you same way. You don't need to know how https works in order to load up a website.

F

No, I appreciate them and I appreciate the information that you guys are bringing up and I think it's it's uh there's a reason why so many people are asking so many questions is because there's that drought of info so- and I get understand completely that you know uh the paper just came out- you know it's only been a handful of days, not even a weekend, I don't believe and, uh um and it so there's an understanding that there needs to be time but um but yeah a little damage control seems like it would be in order.

F

um But again that's uh you know we'll see where it goes so I'm excited. I hope it does great things and again I think the idea is brilliant, but um you know we'll see.

A

Yeah I said before in the chief delegate meeting to me: it's like a enchilada like if you know what makes enchiladas great is again like the rice, the beans, the guacamole, the tomato, the chicken. All that you know combined, you know makes it awesome, whereas some people they learn that you know fractally has, I don't know white rice and beans and and they assume that you know, that's all, that's that's there and they say. Oh, I don't like what you know: white rice and beans.

A

I said you know, taste, you know really bland like you would want that. It's like there's just so much more to it and each of them have you know a different relationship as to how they they merge together uh as well so yeah. I would say that yeah.

A

It would definitely be hard to grasp and fully appreciate what fractally you know is about going through the yeah, the brain, uh expense and time to to fully get that and, as time goes on we'll, you know send that message uh better as as well, but I'm also a fan of you know creating uis that are as simple as possible that are just intuitive and they kind of just teach you how it works as as you you know, uh investigate and explore through the ui uh yourself uh too um plus you know you know it's not like dan's promised that this is exactly how it's going to be.

A

You know maybe a couple variables here and there you know, might change it's uh as well. So.

C

The mole sauce is important too john. Don't forget the mole yeah yep.

M

Somebody made a funny comment to rename practically into enchilada the other day, which I left that.

T

I think one important thing to keep in mind is that the white paper goes into a great amount of detail about the technical aspects, because that's the whole point um just to describe exactly how the system works. However, most users are not going to be interacting at that level. They're not going to have to know all that stuff.

T

So some of the confusion that we're experiencing as a community check it out trying to see sort of the details of how it works.

T

um That's not anything that any users are gonna care about, because they're not even going to know about which doesn't invalidate any of those concerns, but is, I guess, just a good thing to keep in mind if uh what, if the concern is around the complexity and how people will react to that.

A

I don't realize there was um messages going on in the stream chat. um Did we address chris's question of uh what, if fraxley just picked a list of bps for ones they influence and then from there traditional token waiting is applied? This way, fractally doesn't pick the bps directly but can apply a subjective filter.

A

Like I guess, yeah technically, you could do that, but you know I want to go all the way you know personally um and I don't think you would be able to gauge the direct effects or again you know when, when push comes to shove- and you know, drama does come about uh if, if there's just a rug, pull for you know the fractals, you know influence and the community behind that you know and all the respect, tokens and and everything that they've worked for in the communities that they created I'd, say: they'd, be pretty pretty pissed.

M

I think that's an interesting idea to explore, um and um I also agree with john that it had some risk and it also adds some complexity.

M

James martin opened my eyes to this wonderful idea of kalmagrav complexity, which comes from math and it's very related to fractals in the mandelbrot set, and it's basically just like the simplest equation possible. The simplest algorithm possible to provide the most elegant output um and I think that's something- that's been guiding the practically team a lot.

M

I know that james mart's, really into that kind of thinking and many other thinkers are as well um also james, martin open my eyes to the idea of credible neutrality, which is an excellent paper that vitalik bruderin wrote, I think a couple years ago and it kind of reflects the same ideas or similar ideas.

M

One of the rules for credible neutrality and credible neutrality. Just to summarize it if people aren't familiar is like a system that is neutral and incredibly neutral, like believably neutral, like everybody believes in say the neutrality of bitcoin, that the bitcoin miners aren't changing things around. um So one of the rules that vitalik says about credible neutrality is to keep it simple. So every time that you add complexity and you add more rules that adds more uh space or opportunity for things to be biased in some way towards some outcome.

M

So when making design decisions, we should um be careful to only add things that will really be helpful and like to carefully analyze them and examine them. It's like that quote, like perfection is not when there's nothing left to add, but nothing left to take away. So thank you for sharing that idea.

M

I think that was chris um and I'm interested in thinking about more, but those are kind of my initial uh thoughts about that, um and then also if people don't mind, if I just say one more thing here, um I feel like this maybe kind of ties in to what I think denny brought up and john and john were talking about liability before um there's something I wanted to mention there. That I think, is relevant.

M

I think somebody maybe like john said, like it hadn't been addressed like the idea of liability, um and um I think it's good to talk about more. Definitely, um but I think one way that's been re addressed is in dan larimer's um theory of respect and opinions and property rights and dax and doubts um so dan uh shared a really great thought about this.

M

um I I think that michael sullivan from bywire news asked dan about this at like an hour into the second part of the interview, I wrote a bunch of notes about it about like potential legal risks with uh fractals um and dan referred to the idea. How opinion is not property um and that's like maybe the first 10 pages of the white paper.

M

I might be misremembering because there's a few days ago, but there's quite a bit just defining what exactly these respect is respect tokens and what an opinion is and what property is, um and dan larimer's also went into great detail to explain the difference between a smart organization and a dac or a dow decentralized autonomous organization, and so he talks about how smart organizations don't or can own other assets, whereas acts only have autonomy and only have control over their own assets and really like all tokens on eos or any other blockchain or any other community.

M

It's always an opinion: um it's always an opinion of the community, that's operating the blockchain or operating the deck, so um the.

M

If there is a hack, then one I'm supposed, maybe also getting over my head technically, but I suppose there can be time locks built into the system so that eos can't be traded like to an exchange for bitcoin or whatever in some large amount. That would be devastating for the system, but other than that, because these are autonomous communities that are um only managing their own assets and eos is the same way.

M

I think, although maybe I'm also getting confused, because eos also has other assets on the eos blockchain, but um it would be basically where, like I don't know, if there would be liability so to speak, because the token allocation is always the opinion of the community and the community can change that opinion or fork it in a different direction. If there was a hackers deal or something as long as it's possible to make it so that you know the respect, can't be traded for the eos and off to finance or whatever.

U

Hey, can everyone hear me? I just do a quick, my check, yep, hey thanks. I just wanted to address like kind of some some of the things just some thoughts here. Just you know one community member, of course uh not a technical person at all, but some of what john boyd had said um and you know a lot of the points that dogman has brought up, but my sense of kind of what dan is trying to do.

U

You know I think, a lot about the fact that enf is trying to kind of put you know and doing amazing work um kind of picking up the pieces of everything that you know the massive vacuum that block one had left and uh really trying to drive the business case of eos and then dan, probably you know, uh and everyone I'm sure most here know the history better than I do. But um when he built steemit and bit shares, you know he was able to kind of start from a green field.

U

But here I think he's proposing to build uh what strikes me as a pretty incredible vision of how people can be communities can be self-sovereign and you know, um drive value into community building, including the eos community, including you know, uh you know any community where there's like a sports community or a gaming community whatever it is right for those communities to sort of just be self-sovereign, for them to be just decentralized and autonomous, and all those good things he's trying to build it on a blockchain.

U

That's trying to trying to um have a robust, formal business case and- and you know on the enough side eve has said this many times where he's like in calls in this last rant or something he's saying he calls 18 hours a day or something right talking to investors and talking to you, know, companies and talking to stakeholders and those kinds of things. So there's that friction uh that dan is encountering, but my sense and like, for example, the naming thing I forget who it was that brought it up.

U

But you know in him trying to uh you know, improve the the naming system. I know on a technical level purely on a technical level. A lot of folks are saying: why are you focused on that?

U

But what he's trying to do with fractally is build up that mass adoption, where people you know would engage with the platform like you know, the practically platform or or whatever the social media sort of like manifestation of it is like they would with a twitter or a facebook, and that that that friction for the everyday user is as minimal as possible, and so naming is so important right being able to choose a name and not be encountered with sort of technical limitations that are just strange and nonsensical, um and so you know I would love to see like continued sort of conversations about this.

U

I think today's conversation has been so good, but there's this friction. I think that's happening. You know just because dan is trying to build something, that's very unique. um You know, and just like his other projects, a lot of it was like you know, no one knew what they needed until they had it, uh because it is just a a revolutionary new idea.

U

um The only problem is he's trying to build it on something: that's existing. He even said it himself on twitter that you know eos is sort of now a plane in mid-air. You know and you're trying to sort of change some engine parts just like with ethereum and eth2o and those kinds of things. um The the only other thing I would say is I've been thinking about this lot and hearing in tracking conversations for weeks on this. Is you know?

U

On the enf side, you have like really the nuts and bolts of eve and the enf team trying to put together something that is, you know again, very business oriented. So it's very methodical. It's measured, there's a lot of calculation and you've talked about trying to trying to balance all the different. You know.

U

Stakeholders needs and build that consensus, but on the other hand, I think what fractally is offering is something that is kind of a quantum leap right that that does require some fundamental shifts in how we, um you know, may approach uh the eos blockchain, for example, you know and trying to build upon it and there's this sense, as opposed to the business side of things when you look at fractality- and I think some people like this really resonates with them and they channel this is that there is a sense of sort of like that exciting magic of of of possibilities.

U

You know, and and- and it strikes them in a way that you know uh in for reasons why they got in blockchain in the first place, you know like self-sovereignty is really important. Decentralization is really important. Transparency is really important. Those really high high ideals right and that's what fractally is trying to channel into, and sometimes that does kind of conflict with the business needs of the eos blockchain. What enf is trying to drive at um so those are just some observations. I just I'm really excited about um learning more about.

U

Frankly, I hope the conversation continues. I really hope that I know there was some drama about. You know a developer that dan was trying to um bring into fractally and then they, you know, ultimately chose to accept an offer with enf and hopefully that hasn't soured things. There's been other things and dan himself is not the greatest communicator. You know. I think I mentioned this in a couple of other telegram.

U

Channels is sometimes he says things and you know with the best of intentions, but it comes out such as in a really you know, sometimes even kind of offensive way right it just uh it's just his style and unfortunately, you have to kind of take it with a grain of salt and try to work work past that, but I think the I think the goodwill is there, and I think I know john boyd said that you're out of uh the benefits of doubt, but I think there's always, I think, there's more.

U

You know uh in terms of just this very small tight-knit community. That really, I think, cares about eos and- um and I think that the trust is being built. You know, especially with eden, I think eden's been a massive success in terms of bringing in leaders and and showing fractal governance and how that works. But overall, I think there's there's more positivity that we can tap into and and hopefully that we can work together and make this whole thing work.

U

I think both both enough's vision and dan's vision, if we can find a path, will be really good for eos as a whole, but yeah just some thoughts. There thanks everyone.

H

I guess I'll jump in and just respond and say that the first part of what you said is that dan has this vision that you know you talked about account name specifically, that is a vision now that is shared by many and I think, difficulty there is navigating those ideas um that same vision can be done in different ways. We just need to be able to collaborate on this stuff.

H

So when proposals like this get resistant, it's for good reason and it's not to get in the way of dan's vision, but it is that there are many visions in play. Now. This ecosystem has more than one player at this point and there has to be negotiation and that's what seems like is trying to happen right now um and it's bumpy.

A

It's it's bumpy, but we also risk being too smooth, and you know taking too long to actually get anything done. Wow.

H

What's the rush, what do you mean.

A

What's the russian that there has to be a rush, we're behind how much time do you think we have before you know? Eos becomes even more and more irrelevant I'd rather I'd rather, you know, operate things break things and then have that sense of urgency to fix it, and then you know move on to the next rather than you know. Oh there's an update. Let's, let's talk about it, let's develop it. Let's talk about it, some more and then never actually, you know get it through.

H

I don't think that's a good argument. I think that's kind of.

A

True, I don't think we have. You know that that much not that much time and that we should be putting on some sort of ticking clock to keep up momentum and and make changes, and if we and if we break things and we screw things up, then you know then we fix it. You know we make the wrong decision. Then let's make the right decision rather because otherwise we can debate forever.

A

uh What the right decision is- and you know, compatibility for this compatibility for that and then nothing ever actually gets. You know done.

H

But the problem there is that we just got out of a relationship organizations that do things that way and then, when they didn't work, they wouldn't address those problems.

H

So there is a large segment of this community that wants the accountability after the fact be able to address those problems.

H

What's being offered here, doesn't guarantee that and honestly it's from the same guy, though I.

A

Wouldn't say things differently, I think that's very, very different. You can't compare b1 to fraxley.

H

No I'm preparing dan to dan.

H

Blind promises with no future, let's plan this out: let's take time to talk about it, it doesn't have to take forever.

A

Yeah yeah, we can, we we can talk about it and and and communicating you know, can communicate ideas. um You know better, but yeah can't talk about it forever and then fail to get stuff done, because we're anxious.

A

About side effects you know x and y that that that may have, and then you know let that come at the cost of you know making and creating any taking any action uh on on the chain or you know playing it too, playing it too, safe.

N

Just just a just a really simple example who who's responsible for making sure exchanges could utilize this new account system.

H

Or token contract.

A

um Well, there'll be no changes uh for them. Technically, you know that they wouldn't see any changes on their end.

H

But what happens when users start depositing tokens into their accounts, thinking they can.

A

Yeah, that's what doesn't come from.

H

So resolves that like who helps them deal with that.

A

Yeah well, there'll be um more wallet and information, kind of change.

W

Yeah, uh I think it's a good time for me to jump in apologies. I was I I need to go for a period of time. I think it's a good time to kind of segue, uh because dan- and I just talked about this for about two hours- and um it was a very real and uh open discussion- and um on that point, john, the answer that that dan needs to say that you need to say is essentially it's not you guys and that's kind of what the community is asking for.

W

So there's uh dan and I talked about this concept of the den deployment. So if you've never heard about this I'll explain it very briefly.

W

This idea that dan deploys something because it's the flavor of the day, two months later, he decides it's no longer the flavor of the day, but all the rest of the people in this chat, I think that have been chiming up um developers specifically for months afterwards, have to clean up the mess and they're the ones that have to actually deal with the support deal with whatever was was deployed, but not really well thought out through, and it's going back to this idea that dan's not really in the community dan is overlooking the community looking down on the community and what the community is really begging for is for them to be in the community and be part of the community.

W

When you talk about the breaking changes, you talk about making decisions very quickly.

W

The community has been cleaning up for a few years now without anybody else, and all the community is asking for is for dan to be aware of that and for dan denton engage in discussions with them and to even if it's just listening and hearing- and he still decides in the end that he wants to propose whatever change that he wants to propose.

W

That's okay, but at least they'll feel they'll, they'll feel heard, and right now the community is screaming in tandem, essentially saying dan you're not listening to us you're, not hearing us.

W

All we want to do is be heard and for the last three years we haven't been heard and you've got this opportunity dan to to listen to us and to be part of us and not trying to slow you down.

W

But this is unfortunately, over the last three years. It's no longer the dance show, because everybody else has had to clean up the mess that that resulted from dan in part and block one um resulting to where we are today and the idea isn't to uh block dan or to stifle in progress like aaron just said it's I mean these discussions started. I think it was like 12 hours after the white paper was out. The question was being asked: is it being approved?

W

Is? Is what being approved like what is even on the table to be approved? There's nothing to be approved.

W

um So I think the the the discussion that then I had, I think, um opened his eyes a little bit to what the community is asking for. What that means. Concretely and a big part of this was not so much what's being presented as much as how it's being presented.

W

The idea of giving the community ultimatums um from the feedback I've been getting- and I mentioned this last week- is one of the biggest pushbacks that I hear some people that even agree with the concepts are pushing back because of the way that it was presented and the fact that it was given an ultimatum.

W

The fact that dan said either you approve all of this or I leave there's no room for discussion. It's either all or nothing you take it or leave it.

W

I don't particularly care what you're gonna do what you're gonna say, because, because you're kind of pleased guys, you guys are all plebes that that's essentially the way that people feel right now, that's how they're taking it and over the course of the last six months, there's been a significant change, especially in the developer side of things on how they feel, in my opinion, perceived by or not perceived by how they feel supported by the rest of the community.

W

In my opinion, I think that that significant change with the blue papers and those devs are the ones that kept this chain going for the last three years are going to be on multiple, multiple fronts, and now they see this one dev coming back in after having been gone for a while and essentially dictating again how things will happen without listening to them.

W

John asked a really good question like who's going to be who's going to be supporting that afterwards, john john heater and the answer that dan needs to say is be very upfront saying. Well, it's not me. Well then great, then maybe you need to talk to the people that are needed for your vision to come to life.

W

It's a big part of the discussion that then, and I had as well was dan- is really good at birthing, something or creating an idea.

W

What he's lost over the little years is that his ego has gotten to him quite significantly where he thinks that he's the one who created it and he's the one who created everything that came after it and the reality is the communities created the products afterwards the communities leveraged and supported and empowered the product he he is.

W

The creator he's the you know, he's the initiator, but that product, if it has value or that community, if it has value it's very much because it takes a whole village to raise a child and dan's kind of forgotten that over the last little while in the community, is screaming for him to come back and be a part of them like he was, let's say, leading up to the launch of the mainnet and whether that's because he's been um he's he's on the defense, because of and and we talked about that as well, where no matter what he says he's if he says left he's if he says right he's.

W

If he says yes he's. If he doesn't say anything he's, um and so it's incredibly difficult so part of it is he's just always on the defense, but that doesn't mean that you can't try. Though, you've got a bunch of people that are trying to support you. You can't go shoot those people and put those people down when they're the ones that you're going to need to work with they're, the ones that are kind of that are going to wake up in the morning and play their part for your vision to come to life.

W

It requires a lot of those people that you're that you're, essentially calling please and looking down down on that attitude needs to change, and we talked about how, in the last two and a half weeks, or so, things have uh rapidly increased uh downwards for the negative and it really started with him.

W

Creating a poll in the main eos chat and asking whether or not I think it was like the you know. Fab is on to something or no fab is not. Basically, do you want me out of the community or in and dan recognized when he made that it was a terrible decision? It was a terrible idea to do that thing, but in his mind it was going to be 95. Favorable people will say, of course, not dan. Stop it stop playing around.

W

We want you here and it was a really big reality check for dan and then it kind of started a sequence of events where more and more people started kind of coming in and piling on and piling on, and instead of stepping away and not engaging, he kind of you know puts his foot in his mouth more and more and more step after step, and it really is creating a divide where there is no divide, though everybody again is streaming dan. We want to help you.

W

We want to help, you build your vision, but you can't look down on us. You can't look down on everybody that kept your product alive all these years. It it doesn't work that way. If we're going to be a team, it needs to be real. It can't be fake, we're not plebes.

W

That is the sentiment that is being shared by a lot of the people that are talking in the background, and then people are asking for the enf and what? What is the enf thing? Well, there's no, the enf doesn't have power on chain any signatures, there's no mcig right now being offered up for decision making in even I mean this is a large part. I think, of the problem. How everything becomes dramatized is people are waiting on an answer or waiting on a decision. There's no decision, that's not a thing.

W

People are saying, you know. Why doesn't why don't the bps approve this tomorrow? What are they approving exactly like? What's the? What is the actual thing that they're approving that hasn't even been determined yet idea? Is that we'd be working towards being able to make that that vision come to life and that's the discussion that needs to happen is okay, great. We agree in principle that we want this to happen. We agree in principle that perhaps this comes and addresses xyz.

W

How do we get there? The? How do we get? There is not going to be 72 hours after the white paper gets released, that we give the community an ultimatum of. Take this all or I leave that's not how we reach consensus, that's not how we we actually move forward. That's not either way, even if you wanted to, let's assume today, we said great we're doing it. What are we doing exactly in five minutes from now like what is happening in five minutes?

W

There's, nothing, that's not a thing, but a lot of the people who aren't technical, get embroiled in this discussion, and then they start for some reason. Somehow leading this discussion and saying: well, the bps could do it tomorrow. What exactly are they doing tomorrow? What are you referring to?

W

I mean I don't know how many times I've had to explain this to people again, even if we wanted to give inflation tomorrow, that's not a thing you can't the code doesn't even allow allow for that. Even if you wanted to that's not even a thing and somehow now those people that are pursuing that goal are the ones leading the discussion and then the fractally team, obviously they're on the defensive, because everybody's piling on hey where's, my money, my token blah blah blah.

W

I want the token price to rise, and so then the frackley team goes back and shells up and then says. Read the white paper read the white paper. Well, that's not helpful! That doesn't help the people that are there that actually want to understand that are key, but yeah in sparse. Within those people there are trolls and so the trolls kind of guide the message and the trolls are the ones that are kind of making this very difficult.

W

But there are real people, and the real people, for example, are on this call right now. There's there's about 60 70 people that show up weekly on this fireside chat, and this is a great opportunity for dan and for other people from the frackley team to come into the community and actually have real discussions, not with trolls, because oftentimes the trolls don't even speak up in these calls anyways they just listen in if ever they're present and opportunities like that are being put aside by the frackly team.

W

Right now by saying we don't want to talk about heos. We don't want to be a part of that and again giving the ultimatums so a big part of the discussion that we had and I think that dan came to realization. His approach has been really hindering.

W

So, in the background I've been trying to convince the developers, the investors, uh the block producers, to move towards that vision and single intent. Like signal intent of commitment towards this, because that's also not a thing like there's, no there's no thing that you can sign or think that you can do. But it makes it very hard when the person that you're trying to help gives ultimatums to the community and or looks down on the people that essentially are key to make that happen.

W

We need to even dan dan and I laughed earlier- I call it the jerry springer chain. um I think he said something about the drama chain. We we have. This incessant need for some reason to really dramatize everything. So everybody now is talking about a war between dan and the nf. There's no such thing: it's not a thing dan and I get on the call, there's no drama, there's no war, there's there's a community, that's that's begging and lacking communication from the leaders, and they just want to be a part of it.

W

They want to be a part of the community, but that applies to everybody, not just like it can't just be the community members that participate in the calls dan needs to participate in the calls too, and the faculty team needs to participate in the calls. Essentially, the fractal team is asking the eos community to sponsor their application.

W

So john, when you say that this can happen without support, that's not true! There's a lot of people that are really really needed for this to come to life, for the magic to happen and coming. I think to the realization that, yes, the fractality team has has done tremendous work and it has put it down on paper and it's it's able to begin the discussion with others and it's able to start. You know the discussion somewhere. That's that's! Obviously key. That's awesome! That's that's! Amazing! It's just the beginning.

W

A lot of the people on this call are either token holders that have significant amounts that they just don't want to share publicly but they're listening in right now and they're important to the decision. Others are developers that are going to have to ensure that their products now that they deploy either extra resources on their products to make them compatible and or doing outreach like, for example, like to the exchanges and or to the support team. Because everybody's going to be asking questions, hey I've got two accounts.

W

How do I even communicate between those two accounts and what we've seen going back to kind of how I started? Is this reticence in large part because of the damn deployment this idea that dan birth, something but two months from now? He leads on to the next. Something eden is a great example of that eden is now in jeopardy of not even being able to be maintained, and people are just saying in order for us to make this large commitment that we know is going to be needed from us.

W

In order for this to succeed, we want to engage in discussion. That's all they want. They just want to engage in discussion. They just want to feel like they're a part of it. They want to feel like they're heard and if ultimately, people feel heard, it makes a significant difference in how that product is going to be adopted and how it's going to be supported and how it will eventually, you know, have a chance of success or not right. Now as it stands.

W

If it were to be deployed tomorrow, I don't think it would have a chance. I don't think it would actually survive. You'd get a few people joining, maybe 50 people or something like that. All the key people that are needed to give their support or vouch their support, either by being mavens being connectors or being adopters being investors. All those people right now are pushing back not and not, even necessarily because they don't believe in it, but because they're being told that they're nothing and that they don't matter.

W

This is only going to succeed. If that attitude changes significantly.

N

Eve, do you know why dan isn't in this call.

W

uh Yes, um he would rather come on his. He wants to do them during the saturday call, so he wants us to come to him. um He also now, uh I guess is- is um looking to build the application without seeking funding from the chain or seeking support from the chain.

W

uh As per I guess what people have been asking him, which is you know, build it first and then we'll see if it's going to be successful after so he's. um I guess in the in that that mood right now. uh Ultimately, I I did invite him to come over.

W

He would need to be the one to answer as to specifically, why not um there's also the other elephant in the room, which is, I won't, be able to comment on the ongoing investigation, so the litigation against block one, but that plays a huge part as to what we've seen in the last couple weeks- um and I got a better sense speaking to dan as to as to why that may be, um and again people like to dramatize.

W

So they think that it's because dan is going to be on the receiving end and dan did share an email which is true. It is an email that I sent to him.

W

um The intent is not to go after dan, but dan is obviously very spooked and he's he's trying to protect his team as well, and what he's afraid of he laid out very well is that the agreements that we had between the enf and dan in order to be able to move rapidly were very um a very low level of detail in the sense that there was no contract. It was a hey, I'm going to be working on this.

W

Can I get your commitment that when the time comes, you'll be able to fund that or you'll you know retrospectively and that's how we've been working for a while? So that's how eden on eos got funded for the first hundred thousand eos?

W

That's how mandel got funded for the 200, 000 yachts and he's now in a position that he believes that he he does not see uh because block one did not have a contract with the community, and so he doesn't see how how he will be able to proceed in the same fashion that we're proceeding before without having contracts and he's not interested in going the route of having to write out everything in contracts, because it slows the progress down and that's not how he wants to work.

W

And I completely understand that I I understand why he would be very much spooked around that idea and that's the other big elephant. The room is the enf is a conduit for the consensus right now and that is very clear. Marching orders from the majority of the token holders and the community is that dnf should continue pursuing litigation against block one whatever that means, and so the ultimatum again of dan asking the enf to either stop the litigation or he leaves it's unfortunate.

W

But that will not stop unless the token holders they themselves. Unless I started getting calls continuously and and things changed, that will not stop, and that does put uh the enf and dan in a different state of mind. But that's okay. We can disagree on those things.

W

There are reasons why I can't comment on the ongoing litigation, but there's specific reasons why I can't talk about it with dan and and and I can share those with you when dan left he's got in his severance uh package, a clause that he's not allowed to talk about block one he's not allowed to potentially give any evidence that could go against his ex-employer and so part of it is if we were to or when we will bring litigation to block one block. One could try to sue dan and say: listen.

W

You gave them information, so there's a thing called an ethical wall which we did, for example, with ted on our end. So whenever we talk about litigation within the enf ted is not present, ted has no idea what we're doing at all. It is in his contract. There's an ethical while we even adjusted our bylaws to be able to state that specifically.

W

So there are reasons why dan can't be a part of it outside of whether or not the community believes that it's because he's defending block one or whatnot. He really can't and he's been down that road twice. So he does not want to go down that road again of class actions, etc. He's not a fan of the legal system.

W

Everybody knows this outside of eos like this is, has nothing to do with eos, for him he's not a fan of the old traditional system, and so on that front we just don't agree um and and that ultimately, obviously, you know causes some tension, but that's tension at the community level, not necessarily tension between dan and I, but the community likes to dramatize and the media outlets like to dramatize, because they believe I guess that drama sells and it does to a certain extent, but really that's the wrong focus.

W

It actually hurts us more than anything to focus on that part of it. Instead of focusing on where the blue paper is going or uh what's going on with the working groups or you know, what's going on with frackly or et cetera, et cetera,.

B

Chris barnard just asked in the stream chat, if, uh if it's possible for you to share the eos network foundation, bylaws that you just mentioned with the community.

W

uh The bylaws for incorporation, I mean you just are you which bylaws are you talking about specifically.

B

You mentioned you added one with ted, you know the moral wall.

W

um uh No, no, those I'm not allowed to share that chris. I apologize.

W

uh What is public is that the eos nation is a non-for-profit non-soliciting corporation. You can easily go see what that entails uh by looking online. You can also see that that is the case. You you just go in google and type canadian business registry or canadian federal business registry type, eos, network foundation and you'll be able to find the relevant information that can be made public.

W

So you don't even need to trust me. You can just go yourself and check so that was another thing that was asked was you know, I think in the biowire interview dan says like if the eos network foundation somehow got a billion dollars, that's what they're, after no we couldn't, even if we wanted to, because we're not for profit.

W

And if you want to know what the legal costs are, we put out the legal costs, every quarterly report just do the math people watch too much tv. So there's certain things that I can't say, but the information is out there. You just need to do a little bit of research.

W

Yes, a non-for-profit can be sued, yes, kai, a non-for-profit is very much the same as a for-profit. The big difference is, uh it needs to abide by certain guidelines in order to have those tax exemptions. In our case, it's not that you have tax exemptions, sorry we still pay tax, etc, but because you're not running a profit at the end of the year.

W

Technically, you don't have any corporate tax, but the big difference in our case specifically for eos, is that we're able to leverage the eosio.grants account and give out grants and those aren't counted um in our expenses. So if I give out a grant, then I don't get an invoice on the other end.

W

If I and how why that's relevant was because I'm giving out grants, for example, to smart contracts so like giving out the grant to eden was a prime example of why we need to set it up that way because there's nobody on the receiving end.

W

It's not a person, it's a smart contract, but if I'm creating an expense and I'm a for-profit- and I don't have an invoice on the other side, that means I don't have a revenue, then, theoretically, I need to pay it's like if those monies are still in my account, so I need to pay taxes on that. If you extrapolate that to let's say I had you know, I gave out 20 million dollars worth of grants this year. Well, I would be, I would be short 20 million dollars of expenses.

W

I'd have 20 million dollars worth of revenue, I'd owe 10 million dollars or so worth of taxes, but I actually don't have 10 million dollars because I gave all of it away. So that's really where the not-for-profit comes in and it's all related to the um the way that the structure is with the eosio.grants account. The fact that that gives out grants we don't have a receipt in return and that's really to the advantage of the community. That's the whole point and it ensures that the the uh yes network foundation cannot run a profit.

W

So even if we wanted to we're legally not allowed to so that every single revenue that we get in has to be deployed back into the community, no choice.

W

Otherwise we lose our designation um and it kind of breaks down the whole system.

W

Oh, can you guys still hear me yeah yeah.

E

Yeah we were just too busy: let's send to the uh microphone drop.

W

Was it was it my microphone drop.

E

N

Oh sorry, you're just stunning us with content that we've been sorely lacking, so we really.

W

Appreciate it, I can't go into detail like it's. I know it sucks, I'd like to be able to tell you, but I can't comment on an ongoing investigation. I know it's a stupid line that I have to say over and over.

N

I feel sorry that you've had to waste your time dealing with this drama around fractally now, there's because there's.

W

Just so much more important.

N

Things for you to work on.

W

No, that is my job so like this is. This is another thing that everybody needs to understand. Any of you can go, set up an msik and ask for money from anybody right. You understand that anybody can put an mc up.

W

The difference is that if you, through the enf, convince the enf that we should go in x direction, the enf can knows the the way or or has a really good sense by now of how to reach consensus, how to get those signatures who to talk to in what order?

W

What are their priorities? What are their priorities? What are their concerns like? We can essentially speed up the process, and that just comes from when I was with the austin nation. Just go look on chain, the last two and a half years or so of of m6 are eos nation, literally 100, like all of them every single one.

W

So the idea of reaching consensus is at this point. For me, a um will be the word a um like there's a formula now, sometimes it's easier. Sometimes it's harder.

W

Sometimes certain stakeholders push back more or need more in return, as in like they want to have more information, they they need more time in order to be able to process etc. But the general formula remains the same. The difference is is simply because I know how that formula works and I can go through it, whereas for a random person, for example, let's say john uh heater: if you wanted a million eos tomorrow, it would likely be very difficult for you, because you wouldn't even know where to start who to go.

W

Ask you'd maybe put your mcig on chain, but then how do you even you know? Who do you talk to? How does that work, etc? And that's what the enf can do? But ultimately, the nf is not the one making the decisions dnf participates in these calls um engages with the community.

W

I mean I'm on I'm on calls with the community that are recorded and live, and anybody can join multiple times a week and, and those are just the ones that are recorded in life, but otherwise I'm in calls non-stop like aaron, and I are on calls like at least at this point at least once a week, but even more times than that. Like we constantly talk, I constantly talk to stakeholders different types of stakeholders, there's no secret formula to it. I just spend more time arguably than anybody else in this ecosystem.

W

That's really all it is, and I've done so consistently for the last four years. So I just know everybody and- and anybody who knows anybody who's ever sent me a private message. I have very rarely if ever ever in four years turned down a meeting turned down a meeting request turned down a call ever not even once.

W

That's that's all. It is like there's no secret, there's, no there's nothing special to it. I'm just always here.

N

Hey, do you know, do you know um who owns the b1 account now.

W

I know you asked chris earlier um I to my knowledge block. One still owns it, uh but I I really don't know um one of like you, like you asked earlier that keys changed afterwards.

W

The keys had changed before that as well, um and so it's not the first time um they did add different board members that were block one board members a while back, maybe a year ago, or so before they started voting, um and so for those who don't know working for block one is not extremely pleasant and so they've had a huge turnover like a significant turnover at the executive level as well. So, for example, max namstorm no longer there uh lead council alex erasmus. No longer there.

W

um A bunch of the people is, basically everybody is gone, um and so, if my understanding is correct, the timing would match with when either alex left or max left and it is possible. Those were their keys.

N

All right, someone give me a tinfoil hat nft, we'll get to the bottom of this.

W

um Having said that, though, I was listening as to why like why? That was a concern of yours.

W

The rant belongs to block one and, if block one decides to dump that ram, yes, it would crash the price would which arguably, for some people might make it better, because then there'd be more ram on the market for cheaper.

W

It would suck for those holding ram though, but I mean it is their ram and they purchased it and whatever was um in the account or whatever was there prior to the vesting, stop uh belongs to block one and they can choose to do whatever they want with it. I mean it would be nice for them to alert the community should they make a move, but we know that that's wishful thinking and unlikely to happen.

W

um Kai again, you asked sorry for texting. When will you give a decision again? What am I making a decision on? There's no ask what is like the enf doesn't make a decision on fractally.

W

Can you be a little bit more specific about which decision you're talking about that there's? No, there there's no ask there's no left or right or yes or no or that's that's, not a thing right now and aaron. I think earlier tried to go back and forth. I don't see joshua you're still here aaron tried to explain that to you joshua. What is the ask right now like? What are we making a decision on.

W

It's not a thing.

W

What dan is looking for is for signal of intent that um that the stakeholders, or that the community uh is interested in pursuing the idea of fractally and that I've said on multiple times and I'll say it again right now. I support that idea.

W

I believe at this time that the that there's a lot of work to do and arguably, in the last two weeks that job has become much harder in order to get that, let's say to get the right people to play their part for this to be a success uh which includes developers which includes you know, investors, vps, etc.

W

But, yes, I so if your question is, do I support the idea yeah? I support the idea. I've said that over and over I supported the idea with eden as well, and I'm not in the camp of that. We need to only focus our energies on solving current issues. I know this is contentious and I talked I talked about this with aaron.

W

Quite a lot, I'm okay with creating problems, I'm okay with that and and what I mean by that, because if you take it out of context, eve is okay, we're creating problems, I'm okay, that we can deploy resources on certain things that aren't there to fix necessary problems, but that may create problems in the future, because it's something new.

W

For example, we just gave a contract to oci to do api transaction life cycle improvements. It is possible that after that is deployed that creates an unforeseen problem that we that we don't know of right now. So that's what I mean by I'm: okay with doing things that don't necessarily address a current problem, but that are an upgrade to a certain extent that may create problems in the future.

W

I'm okay with that, and the way that I see it right now um is that there are three different veins um and three um three different types of stakeholders that I am trying to.

W

Harness the value of.

W

Through the blue papers, I believe, that's that so far, we've been able to harness, or at least start harnessing the value that that type of stakeholder brings to the table more so the core development side of things more so, like the back end side of things, I believe that the process that we've engaged in over the last couple months is unlocking that that value that essentially has been not harnessed for arguably a very long period of time.

W

Fractally to me not necessarily the way it's presented right now and we don't know what it's going to look like and it's going to evolve, and you know how eden was you know it was going to solve all you know life's problems and then, oh now, magically announced fractally. Well, I think maybe there's going to be another iteration other iteration, I'm okay with that, but that general idea behind the general vision behind fractally, I believe, is trying to go and harness a certain type of value that currently is not being harnessed.

W

I fundamentally believe that, and so I do believe that something like fractally, whether it is frackly or not, but that is what is on the table right now, is needed. I would like that.

W

I would like that somehow, um so that would be number two, let's say, because it's a very different type of stakeholder than let's say the first pillar that I mentioned, which is more the developer, um core pillar infrastructure, blue paper type of stakeholder and then the other type of stakeholder, which arguably we're harnessing right now, but kind of keeping on life support is more the investor business side of things and that the way that I envision harnessing that or being able to amplify and power that is through the evm, and that would be the third kind of pillar, so you get like the evm will bring in a certain type of stakeholder again.

W

This is all whether or not that's going to happen. I don't know, but that's the idea.

W

The blue papers bring in a certain type of stakeholder and then fractally or eden, or you know down that route will bring a different kind of stakeholder, and I believe that the more we um open ourselves to the different type of stakeholders, then the stronger we would be if these work now at the same time, part of it is also hedging one against the other, in the sense that if it's it's not guaranteed that one will win so and and by win I don't mean uh win against the other.

W

I mean be able to capture enough success in the current form that it is being presented um that it'll unlock a significant amount of value in a very low period of time. It is quite possible that the blue papers won't do that or that, frankly, won't do that or the evm won't do that.

W

But those are the three right now that we have on the table as they are currently being presented, and I do believe that they can work in harmony with one another and they do come and address different holes, different opportunities that we could try and go capture.

W

If that makes sense,.

W

um For those who, I can't answer, questions about block one, I I I'm sorry can't comment on an ongoing investigation, so I mean feel free to keep asking. I can't answer.

B

John, your uh tinfoil hat nft has been delivered.

M

Something that um that I'd like to ask- and thank you very much is for sharing. uh All of these thoughts um is um well. People have been asking, people are asking he's like um what will the enf accept, uh fractally or or funded or whatever, and I agree that um it'd be way too soon to make you know any decision like that and.

W

It's not, let's backtrack. It's not even a decision that that's.

M

Not a thing right right, so naives are saying like it's not a thing, because the proposal isn't clear: there's not a clear proposal. Is that what you mean no.

W

Even if there is a proposal, the enf can't accept. What are you talking about? Oh you're, asking for inflation. The nf doesn't have that authority. That's not a thing right. Okay, okay,.

E

And even if there's also a code, that's lacking also so.

W

The code is not even there, even if you wanted to without.

E

Saving it can only go to esr, it's saving, it can't go anywhere else, so the code doesn't even exist yet to do that.

M

Okay cool, so thanks for clarifying that, so it's not possible to do that, and- and that wasn't my point, but thank you for clarifying it. um That makes it easier for me to say it right next time, um but my point was that um maybe it's helpful to take like small steps rather than trying to think of some grand design like that all at once. So like.

W

That is the idea. Yeah, that's the idea from the beginning, but what was being proposed on the other side was take it or leave it as is, or I leave.

M

Okay, so there's a lot that we can go into and I also wrote some notes. I I don't feel the same way but the ultimatum that, as you put it and I think, can be um interpreted with giving more benefit of doubt and just as an offer that can have counter offer. But.

W

There was no gray area, it was straight up, take it or leave it as is, or at least there was no like I'm paraphrasing, but it was literally those exact words. It wasn't grey, it wasn't maybe misunderstood.

W

That was what what was being presented to me and that's what was, and you can even go see, go see the bi-wire interviewer go see. uh That is what was being presented.

E

And even after all of that, so true story or tuesday, when the um the fractal paper came out eve myself, lovejoy a couple, other people were on a zoom call like an hour after it was released, and we had time to read it, we're all just talking about it and we're giving our thoughts on it. Nobody was as I guess it didn't meet everyone's expectations. Initially eve was the one person that stepped up and was like.

E

I'm gonna try to make this happen, and it was the biggest surprise ever because of how everyone else in the group was talking about it and eve was like I'm gonna figure it out. I it's not perfect, but I'm going to make this happen somehow and that's just something that, like not there's only like five four people that were on that conversation, but that's a true story like lovejoy can vouch for that.

C

Yeah, I can vouch for that. It was like upside down world what's happening.

E

Because we're all expecting lovejoy to tell us what we're I was expecting lovejoy to tell me what I was missing because, like I was hoping to like be chugging kool-aid as soon as I read the thing, and I wasn't and I'm still looking for those components that I can drink the kool-aid from that's. Why I'm asking so many questions and it was like wow brandon's not excited yet either. What's going on here and eve was like, it was upside down, world eve was the one that was like I'll figure out how to make this happen.

C

To be clear, my objections were purely along the lines of the communication fumble that I was perceiving to be ongoing and just the the the pain I personally felt. I I I suffer when what I think are good ideas or not communicated effectively, and it just felt like it was creating more problems than it needed to be, and so that was my main.

W

I want to address something else as well kai um you bring up a point, you say please so guys, please don't waste your time with fracturally and focus on ongoing enf work leave it.

W

um I I don't know how to say this nicely, but people can work on a one-on-one thing at once, so I think it's important to keep thinking about what we can do with fractally and how we can achieve that and that doesn't take away from doing the other things like it's not because I'm on this call right now that magically evm is now not happening in the background or that the people that are working on evm magically are no longer working on evm.

W

What we've shown in the last six months or so is that we can be working on a multiple files all at once, there's tons of different people, and that is increasing in number of people. um So it's not because we talk about one subject or you know, spend 24 hours or a few days talking about a particular subject that the whole world stops and and that basically everything revolves around that.

W

Yes, it does feel that way in eos, especially uh when dan says something the whole world stops for for a period of time, but in reality that the blue papers keep working um the people the developers are keeping working.

W

uh You know everybody's still playing their part, even though, for example, this fireside chat is going on right now we can do more than one thing at once and we have been doing so and right now I would say it is important to talk about this, because there are a lot of people that feel invested in this and they they want to see this succeed, and they believe that this is part of the vision that will help eos and so listening to them.

W

Addressing talking about it being in this chat right now, I actually think it is high roi. It is important.

W

That's what we have not been doing over the last couple of years is kind of running on multiple funds at once and listening to people listening to people that have maybe a different vision from us and seeing how maybe we can make that vision come to life which part we can play in there.

N

Hey, hey eve, I think I think, maybe if I, if the sentiment behind that question, was maybe more about how how do you choose? You know what to prioritize as the enf when it comes to applications building on eos, because the enf is has to be this neutral party right. So what dictates you spending time, uh considering one application versus another? If uh you know a big project came to eos that wanted to build a dao uh structure, you know that. Wasn't that wasn't dan! Would they have a you know?

N

Would they be at a disadvantage? Because you wouldn't put time into talking.

W

That's a very good question and that that was actually brought up on a few occasions right. What's different between you, know dan, and you know somebody else that could monopolize the time as he monopolizes the time. I think the answer to a certain extent is self-obvious. Dan is not just a regular token holder, uh sorry, a regular community member um and so inevitably, regardless of what you or I think, for example, john. um If he says turn left a shitload of people turn left right. We can't escape that.

W

That is whether we like to or not. That is something that he has, that nobody else in this community arguably has to that extent right, fair enough. He so he comes with that that um if we talk about fracking, let's say he comes with that inherent already respect uh uh baggage, um good and bad.

W

It works in in both ways right, um but I think, more importantly uh to your point: how do how does the enf, or how do we decide as a community to ensure that it is uh a fair playing field for everybody as much as possible? Right, essentially, that's what we want like we want to ensure that whether people are dan or not dan, that they get a chance to be heard and that uh that, ideally, that they get a chance to be supported in the same way that we would be able to support that.

W

So maybe dan in a way kind of has that if you go to disney world, he has that fast pass and he can skip the line, but he's the only one with a fast pass. Unfortunately, and even if we want to remove his fast pass, he just he has the fastpass tattooed on his forehead, um and but how do we ensure that, then, when it gets to the right, everybody gets the same right, and that is a challenge like. I don't necessarily have an answer for that right now.

W

What we've been doing is is- and it's very difficult and it's an ongoing everyday thing, because dan has that innate advantage in the ecosystem.

W

I try and focus my time way more on the blue paper side of things, for example, and so we we spent a lot of time uh empowering the community and doing a lot of extra support. That dan doesn't need to be seen that perhaps the people in the blue papers needed or could take advantage of to elevate um what they worked on to the level that uh that they'll be seen.

W

So, for example, like the translating uh the branding the uh you know, all the marketing that went alongside that, like everything else that we can provide that dan doesn't necessarily need, even though we offered those things to dan. um For example, the branding agency that we had worked with, we actually gave dan access to them so that he could leverage them. It didn't work out, um but and we we also aren't working with them uh or will not work with them anymore. But that type of thing dan doesn't need that.

W

Let's say you, for example, john. If you came to the table- and you had something those extra resources or that extra support is one of the ways that I can elevate you um to get more visibility on door to to. Arguably I guess have a like elevate, your status in the community for you to get the a plain level playing field that that others don't necessarily need, but it is an ongoing challenge right.

W

So you mentioned, for example, if a another dao entity were to come um and and that's a really good question- I don't necessarily have an answer for that. If there was another doubt ntc that came tomorrow again, what are they asking? So I mean we get requests for for funding all the time and we are now developing a grant framework um and uh ted. I mentioned this last week. Ted has been the one that's been working on this and it's two.

W

I think it's uh in a state right now, where it's going to be made public very shortly um again, so that everybody knows what the rules are. Everybody gets the same information and if you get as much as possible that we remove the subjectiveness out of it so that everybody gets the same uh chance of getting our time or getting funded or getting that extra support.

W

But that is incredibly difficult. It really isn't easy, so I don't necessarily have an answer right now and even what we do is going to be a work in progress. The the blue papers are a really good example of that as well. We've now put them out and we just created the feedback mechanism and the feedback mechanism, we're you know, creating incentivization mechanisms in there, so that people are incentivized to want to provide feedback. Knowing that it's it's likely that very few people will provide feedback.

W

Even if we give that extra incentivization I mean so we we're we're we're drafting as we go along as well like we're we're creating as we go along as well, and so, if you have any specific ideas, that's why we've been asking people? That's why we're on these calls that we we're. Arguably the enf is in in calls daily with people. We continuously adapt the way that we do things based on feedback from community members and we'll keep doing that. That's, that is our job.

M

I'd like to um just go back to what I was saying before, if that's okay and just make a quick proposal, so I was talking about baby steps um and- and I haven't- I didn't really explain it too well and I didn't get it out as as well as I could have um what I'd like to propose, rather than thinking about fractally. In terms of you know, big changes that are undefined and impossible is thinking about what what is the next step?

M

We can do um to help empower eos with fractoid and help empower fractally with eos, and that next step is attending the fractal on this saturday. So during the first fractal we had 10 people and, as I was saying before, it was like really fun super helpful. It was awesome to see people. I got to speak with dan and ask a bunch of questions. A bunch of other people did too got to speak with joshua and lenny and a bunch of great people, so it was really great, really helpful.

M

I think it could be super helpful and fun for the community, um so there's been something like 60 people on this call. Maybe 70, and so far there's only been um 10 rsvps on the fractal genesis group that joshua set up I'm planning to message joshua, because I think that the process of signing up might be a little bit over complicated or a little bit difficult.

M

So that might be one of the reasons why there's not many rcps yet, but I would love it um well, just to wrap that up I'll, try to make it as simple as possible to sign up, but I would love it, um and I think it would be super helpful for us to get a big attendance on that next fractal on this upcoming saturday.

M

If we can get not 10 people but 60 people like today, or maybe 100, who knows, um and so I would like to one- welcome and encourage everybody to join um and once again say you know, please feel free to reach out.

M

If you have any questions- um and I'd also like to ask specifically- I don't know if it's um too much to ask a too personal feel free if you're, busy or whatever, but um I I noticed, eaves didn't participate in the eden election um because I I suppose, because you were funding it with the enf. So I suppose it makes sense, and I noticed also, I think you were in the factory genesis groupies. But then I saw that you weren't there anymore.

M

So I'm wondering if, if you plan to participate in fractal and if you can attend on um on saturday.

W

uh For eden, so I made it very public that, because I'm the one who was funding eden and arguably as the conduit for funding for eden, people keep asking me what I think eden should do and ultimately what would happen is eden would do what I say out of fear of not getting funding again, and so it does make it that I can't say what I want to say, and I and I do, um uh but I can't I can't say it the way that everybody else would want to say it, because I hold the purse strings, and so, if really the difference between eden being a success, is plus one or minus one.

W

I think we've got bigger problems, I'm in terms of numbers.

W

uh When people ask me my feedback or my comments about you know, I have no no reason in or so I have no no uh qualms and sharing that fractably fractally, arguably, is going to be very similar if it's just me getting on a call on a saturday and talking to other people like I'm doing right now for actually doesn't need a plus one or minus one.

W

If it's just me, I understand at the same time, having said that that it needs more people to join the more people to join the better, and maybe even just the signal of intent of me joining might actually make more people um happy about it or or psyched about it.

W

That is possible. I don't necessarily think that that's the case, but I could be convinced otherwise,.

M

Well, thank you for your response and in my opinion I mean it'd be awesome. If you can attend um you're, you know quite well known and respected as a leader in the community and uh some people.

W

You just cut off.

M

There, okay um yeah, uh so I don't know if anything cut off, but I was just saying that I would very much appreciate it. You could make their people respect your leadership a lot and there's also some uncertainty in the community. Like you cleared up and say, there's no war or anything people to exaggerate, but a lot of people sense some sort of conflict, and it would be great, I mean it it it's just a fun event um where people get to talk to each other.

M

It's like this, but we get to see each other with our faces and we also get to experiment with this new process that can potentially be really helpful for the community. So I mean I understand if you're busy.

W

It's the same process as eden, currently.

M

Well, similar, but it's not the same, because we are doing the uh ranking from one to six and also we only did eden like three times um and those were all really fun and like really cool- and we had some great stories and things that came from it. And this is we have to do it a lot more and also different as well.

W

Why are you so excited about, uh like you mentioned, that frackly was really exciting, was really fun.

W

Can you elaborate on that and somebody asked earlier, maybe you answered while I was well, I had to leave um what was so exciting or so fun about it. What is what is so different, or why do you believe that this is so revolutionary.

M

um Well, yeah thanks for asking I I answer it in some parts, um but I I didn't answer it fully. So I appreciate the opportunity to answer so um there's a there's, a lot of reasons and I'm not sure if I'll be able to answer it all well here, because I'll probably think of, like other great reasons, I'll write a bunch later and then it will take me. You know, months and months to actually get the full get all up all the great stuff out about it, because I'm just so excited.

W

If I'm, if so right now, just again we're you're kind of going down that path again, if I'm somebody outside of this community and you've got 30 secs in 30 seconds, to explain to me why I should do this thing.

W

Why should I do this thing? Okay? So if you're telling me that I need to go, read a white paper or that it's going to take months for me to understand it. You've lost me and the premise for fractally or for eden is to have thousands and thousands of members. So it needs to come in like 30 seconds or less elevator pitch.

M

Okay, so uh thank you for the challenge. I'll also just note that I I t to really explain it. I could talk about it for hours and hours and I'm in the process of learning how to explain it really. Well, so, no matter how well, I explain it right now I'll be able to explain it much better with more time, but given that 30 second timeline, I suppose what I'd say is one. You mentioned thousands and thousands of people's. I I don't empowering everybody in the world like billions of people, billions of communities.

M

The reason why I got into eos why I got so excited about eos back when eos launched and I whole time, despite many people being negative about it. I've just been constantly super excited about. It is because I see how eos can empower communities and eos can power creators and like creative work.

M

So I am a creator, I'm a musician, I'm um somebody who intends to be a community leader and like help communities by playing music and sharing a bunch of great communities and like art and things like that, things that I think that the world needs and are really hopeful, and for the past four or five years or probably decade, I've been building like the starts of lots of different communities.

M

I've been building a community called amusing tools where it's all about tools that can help us make the best experience possible and I've been building a a a youtube channel play tubers and dance party for like playing music, and while I've been doing these things and like live streaming a lot and making all sorts of art making all sorts of content and writing about it.

M

I've noticed over the years like as a creator, I always kind of hit a bit of a wall in that I was dealing with like being at like the bottom of like the list on, say, twitch and so, like some people have millions of followers and I'm like kind of towards the bottom, and I think I'm making really great content and I'm putting a lot of love into it and just the systems aren't capable of empowering people.

M

The current systems we have on social media, and so what brought me into eos and got me really excited part of it. I mean there's a lot of really exciting things about it, but one of the things that's most exciting for me is okay. I have these ideas, I'm one creator.

M

I don't wanna make this all about me, but just focusing on my experience, there's so many other people who have dreams like me, and people who are inspired and want to share something like their youtube channel or something that they really care about and love like some charity or some building, some community or some cooking or music or dancing or whatever. They want to do this and they need tools to be able to empower their community and cooperate with their community so like when say me as a youtuber.

M

um Currently it's just me as a youtuber and all the work's on me, and I can say, like hey, please help and sometimes people might be interested in hoping, but with fractally. What fractally enables is it enables individuals to build communities and to reward people who also share in that same vision, and then everybody wins when the community wins together. So.

W

And you couldn't do that, so eden is not capable of doing that.

M

Well, um so eden could be capable of doing it and for the past year or eight months, nine months since eden came out, I've been building even creators. I'm not sure if you saw my posts about that, I posted the introduction and announcement to eden creators back in the eos channel about three weeks ago. I'd be happy to share it again. I shared a big long introduction about how I'm building eden creators to empower creators in power communities and build more edens, because I was incredibly excited about the eden process too, and I.

T

Still am, I think,.

M

It's awesome, but I also think fractality is a lot better because, like I've also been designing, I've been designing something called ecos, which is eating creators os. That's how it started a way of the original idea with ecos was like okay. How can we take eden and morph that into something that would be helpful for empowering communities and I figured there needs to be weekly events because, or there needs to be more frequent, um I was planning to propose during the eden election.

M

I shared a proposal for another proposal and an introduction, and it was a proposal to raise funding in the eden election um for three communities that I'm starting called eden: creators, eo, sages and dap heroes. Eosages would help people understand, eos and so forth, and these would be using the eden process every week and, having a community token, to empower that community to reward people to help that community, and so I've been working on this quite a lot and so like when I see practically ideas, I'm just like wow, that's really smart! That's this!

M

This fibonacci stuff! Oh all, this different stuff! That makes it better. That makes it a lot better, so eden could work really well and in the absence of uh in the absence of fractal. I'd still be this excited about eating and that's how I've been for the past nine months, but also with fractal the.

W

The way it is currently presented is also not going to be the end result because right now, you're saying frac. This is, I guess this is what I hear a lot is fractally is going to solve. You know, frankly, is going to cure world hunger. You mentioned at the beginning of your your uh 30-second elevator pitch that sorry.

M

That went out a bit long.

W

He, it would be, you know, powering billions of people uh right now. You also mentioned that there was only 10 people that showed up. um Is it possible that frackly is on to something, but that maybe we need to be open to? This is also still an experiment, and after it's deployed we will learn from it and it will change again. Are you open to that idea?

W

Kind of like in was going to solve world hunger and, if eden would have been about, then obviously russia would not have invaded ukraine, um but that maybe that that was wrong, and it's just the next iteration. It's just next experiment and that's okay, but are you open to that because a lot of the people that I hear that are you know frankly is going to solve world hunger?

W

Maybe it won't, and- and maybe it's going to- I'm exaggerating john- I'm I'm using an obvious exaggeration to highlight the point that maybe what it is right now is going to change in a few months again. But if that's the case, if that's the premise, you need the people around you to help make that iteration, because if not you're creating work on those people and then you will need them later on to continue adapting and morphing with you.

W

And so this all or nothing and this this idea that it it is now it's solved, it's done holy. That's all. We were missing, it's it's! It's all finished, it's all! It's in the white paper. It's finished. Maybe that's not really realistic.

M

So, um first of all, I don't know if there is confusion or if you just said the wrong name or if you're speaking to john williamson. But this is dog.

W

Man john williamson wrote in the chat he said who was who said he's in was gonna solve world hunger, I'm exaggerating by the idea that frackly is going to solve everything it's going to solve all of our problems and that billions of people are going to use frackly. Maybe un unlikely, though it's very unlikely, and if we.

D

W

With the idea that it's unlikely but we're on to something there's something there and- and maybe if we start off with the idea that we're off onto something then reaching consensus on moving forward with that something becomes much easier than it's the it's the answer to all of our problems, which is very difficult to reach consensus on, because most people are going to argue with it and say no, it's probably not the answer to all of our problems, but if we instead started with the we're on to something what if we give that something a try?

W

Okay, well, what could that look like? So the next steps you mentioned a very concrete next step: let's get people to join next saturday right and then what would be the next step and what would be the next step? How could we in a way not ease into this but break this down into concrete milestones in order to get to the full enchilada, but before we get the full enchilada?

W

Maybe we we we get to the full enchilada in 10 steps instead. Well, what would be those ten steps.

A

That's the point is that no one wants to eat rice and in black beans that tastes disgusting. You you're gonna get all the ingredients for an enchilada before it starts to taste, good.

T

um In response to that sorry,.

W

That's not how you reach consensus, john! That's that's! Why there's so much pushback.

W

I'm not saying the enchilada is not good, I'm saying maybe the person needs to this is a terrible example like. Maybe the person needs to watch a a spanish drama first to just be open to the idea of even looking at enchiladas, and then maybe the person then takes a all-inclusive trip to mexico for a week in order.

J

To scenes will be pretty good on nachos like.

W

I'm just I'm just suggesting that the approach needs to be different in order for us to reach consensus. I'm telling you we're getting a lot of pushback, because it's the you need to take the whole enchilada or nothing, and the enchilada is the is the answer to all of our problems. There's no in between it's, it's all or nothing, and it solves everything. That's not realistic!

W

N

To use to use john, to use your analogy, I mean few people are arguing about the ingredients of the enchilada, we're arguing we're arguing about the venue where the enchiladas served the menu, the things that are wrapped around the enchilada, we're like. Why is it so expensive? Why isn't there anything else on the menu? Is the cook a nazi like what's going on? Where are we? These are all the questions we're asking.

E

C

Well, I I I feel like I could sew it all together with it's like making stone soup. You know, that's probably the analogy that saves us is like you've heard of it: making stone soup right, you gotta, you gotta, send everybody out to you say: I'm cooking soup and you start a big pot filled with water, and then you enlist everybody around to help and they all bring ingredients from their respective communities.

C

But to do that, you got to ask for people's help and to bring every for everybody to bring their ingredient to the to the soup or the enchilada, and I think that's perhaps the step that's been missing. Is that engagement that that asking uh for people to to come and participate? You know it's been like.

W

We can't be dismissive of those people. I think dismissive is the word like. So I read in the chat again like it's a like: let's try it, let's just try it. What do we lose? Well then, what I hear in the background is like, for example, john heater saying: what do you mean? What do we lose? I now have to add like 250 hours worth of deg work, dev time just to get this functional like that is what he has to lose.

W

Perhaps and then there's other people saying well I'm going to be funding this, so maybe that's what I have to lose and all I'm saying is. We can't be dismissive of those asking questions that are genuinely trying to support this and all they need is maybe just you know for them to be listened to. That's it and everyone wants.

P

W

A big part is just this: it's just people feeling like they've been heard, and then those with genuine concerns, because they legitimately will have to deploy resources and or do work just want to know how they fit into this. And how are they going to get support.

J

W

With five kidney.

J

Beans with this enchilada like either, let me there's some substitutions through the dishes.

R

Guys can I just mention something: real quick: um why don't we uh try uh telos worker proposal right because they had a system in place for a while. It's been working good.

R

Why don't we collaborate with them and see how they're doing it and and use that, because everything seems to be working good on on the way, telos goes about uh doing their work and proposal and coming to consensus, you know, and if we don't want to do it that way, maybe we can look into other chains like decred how they do it with tok uh token, um voters with tokens vote on the proposals and uh that's a different way of doing it, but since telos is so close to us, I think that that's a good way of looking.

R

C

Well, well, looking even closer, we have, we have eden still and we have a pretty substantial eden membership if, if people want to utilize that process to give direction to this, um I think many of us are already eating members. So it's not like.

W

We don't have captures a type of stakeholder which is not the overall picture of what constitutes the different stakeholders and it's clearly not the current consensus mechanism and we're trying to work towards.

W

Ultimately, I mean that when dana- and I had our chat earlier, ultimately what he said- and he made it very clear, what he's proposing is not an application. What he's proposing is a new governance mechanism and in order to implement that governance mechanism, he does it through the application. But what he's proposing is not the application and we currently have a governance mechanism.

W

We currently have a consensus mechanism that we're trying to change in flight and we're trying to transition while using the current one, and so whether or not you like the current one is irrelevant because it is, that is what it is, and so we need to play from within those current guidelines moving towards what we believe might be better and so far I haven't heard anybody of um of of worth, and I apologize if, um if I'm not capturing your uh everybody's voice say that they don't agree with that like that, is the common base.

W

Let's try to make things better whatever that means for everybody, but ultimately from the current mechanism that we have to perhaps something that could be, um that could that could capture consensus better that could reduce the um the margin or the reduce the the discrepancy that exists between what likely really is the will of everybody. If you, if you could somehow capture that to how that currently is being captured right now, and what dan is proposing is a method to be able to close that gap through fractality and that's.

W

Why he's also asking for 11 block producers? It's essentially now being able to have a counterweight to the current weight and eden was also trying to do that.

W

um But then eden has its its flaws and one that um uh that dogman mentioned very well uh is. Is the time is the frequency uh the six month election- and I was very vocal about this at the onset- is far too long, especially in a in an iterative stage very early at launch. It's far too long to be able to.

W

W

Change or adapt or or move the system to be able to perfect it, and so that's why you see now with uh with fractally, you know, weekly meetings, there's also the paying people before versus paying people after so people paying people for work done versus paying people for work that they're going to do in traditional systems.

W

Part of their problem with with is that we always pay for people pay per pay after the work is done, but because that's a six month period, for example, then people only get in six months after they've done the work, and especially, if it's dominated in a particular token, then the actual value may be down. Well, it fractally addresses that as well, because you only get paid for work after you've done it, but it's every week and you're able to to to close that gap where it's no longer an issue plus.

W

It also helps with the accountability side of things. So there's a lot of good things that frackly comes and addresses the one of them that zach is is very fond of. Is that the liquidity pools, essentially that it creates where, if one of the fractals somehow managed to to have a huge boner, um it lifts everybody else up right? It's it's very much the idea of how traditional vcs work, you're gonna, invest in a hundred of them.

W

All you need is one unicorn that makes all of your 99 other bets that failed, worthwhile um and so part of it. Is you just need a lot you? You need a lot of fractals. You need a lot of different experiments running at once.

W

There's also the concept like john williamson mentioned, of the gold rush, where there needs to be enough incentive at first that creates the fomo so that the the system rebalance itself out, um because people want to capture that value and the value being given at the onset is very, very big, and so um it attracts a lot of people and you need those numbers.

W

So if fractally or eden only has 50 people or 100 people, it's not enough, because in that 50 people that 100 people, you don't capture enough types of people to make the system actually valuable to a certain extent. So if you're lucky you're going to get one of each but realistically you're not going to get one of each so you're not really going to get a good representation of different types of stakeholders within that particular type of stakeholder that particular system so eden, frackly has a lot of really really good ideas.

W

That's not what people are arguing against. People are specifically saying, for example, the contracts, the way that the contracts are being presented, what if there was a different way of presenting them or adapting those contracts or what, if there was a different team that could work on it that maybe that's their specialty?

W

um What if maybe uh the people that have been working on ux for the last three years, are the people that have a good insights on what may attract people like you, you mentioned at dogman earlier as well. The process right now of joining is kind of hard.

W

Well, maybe the fractally team has ux resources, but maybe they're, not ux experts, and maybe dan, is a is an expert or is really really good at something, but he's not good at everything. So it goes back to the maybe if the team was a little bit more open to different people in the community, we'd have a more successful product from the onset instead of being dismissive to the community that the enchilada needs to be eaten, as is from the get-go like we're just turning in circles.

W

Here it's it's a different approach, especially um if you look at what the eos community has gone through over the last couple of years, they're no longer just taking it, they're, no longer just accepting it, for fact, and it's not that they're pushing back, be they're, pushing back because they've learned over the last three years that if you don't push back you just get or that the likelihood of you getting is incredibly high.

W

Maybe if you push back a little bit and ask certain questions you could avoid getting, or at least you can minimize the likelihood of again wasting a bunch of resources or again wasting a bunch of time. That's really all it is, and that's not saying I don't like your idea, it's saying. Maybe we need to actually work together. Maybe maybe you need to recognize that we're a part of this too.

M

Yeah, so I agree, I would with what you're saying, and I completely agree that we need to work together more. um um The enchilada thing I see how like the full enchilada can be really delicious and really great, and how john is saying how they can all work together, and I can also see the gold mine analogy, gold rush analogy and the reason for communities to have um the autonomy with block producers and also for, like the smart contract upgrades that will make practically work better.

M

I can see how that all makes a really nice enchilada, and I can see how that is something that is being proposed, and I think that can be very hopeful for the community to do eventually, probably from what I understand so far and definitely consider. um But I don't think that it's right to go for the whole enchilada right now like what we need is, like.

M

I don't know like the super super mini enchilada of just like showing up to the meetings and just like experimenting with process and trying it out and just getting to know each other and talking about it more like we're doing now, um like eves before you mentioned, and you asked me and so I'd like to answer your question because I didn't get the chance to um do. I think that uh fractally will solve all problems and and also will it evolve.

M

I think those are the questions that you asked me generally um feel free to correct me if I'm getting it wrong, but to answer those like one, no, I don't think fractally or any tool can solve all our problems. It's always up to us the people. It's always up to the people who use the tools. Fractally is an incredibly helpful tool, but it's up to people to use it like a hammer, doesn't solve all your problems.

W

An idea right now: it's it's not even built, so that's like to reposition it, that's something that a lot of people have been saying as well. Is it's not even a thing yet so it's words on the paper a week after they were, they were published.

M

That's true, and it's not true, because I also attended the first fractal event and we have tokens that aren't on the blockchain but they're in a google spreadsheet and they can easily be put onto the blockchain just to the consensus and we have a community of people who are really excited about it. So the whole fractality yeah. I agree. That's that's a lot of words on a page.

W

Frankly, it's not there yet the contracts aren't written yet.

M

But these in the contract exactly.

W

At this stage is still an idea, an idea under development, no.

A

It's a little small community well.

C

A

Like you said we're we're running the weekly week leaking meetings, we don't need a contract to to be a community.

M

Yeah and we do have the contract on a google spreadsheet- it's maybe not on the es blockchain, it's not, but we have a spreadsheet omni, set it up and we're rating each other, and so we could say like right now I have eight tokens and joshua has five and then dan has 13 or whatever the numbers are, and so that's that's there. That's something that we have.

M

That's also what I was planning on doing with eating creators, the same way starting out small so that before the contracts are built, we can still rally the community around the ideas and then just have it with uh google spreadsheets. And if we want, we can even take pictures of it, put the hash or hash it and put it on ipfs. So it's actually on the blockchain and that's there. The process is there, it works.

M

We already did it and we have the community, and so that's what I'm saying like the little enchilada like take the expansion.

W

By the process works, can you elaborate on that? What do you mean by the process works? You mean people getting in a room and talking like we're doing right now, like what do you mean by the process, works.

M

Yeah, so I I could answer in a lot of different ways. So one like the eating process, like has totally changed my life since we started doing it last year and it totally changed so many other people's lives as well. It brought together, so many people brought together the community in a way that never happened before, with all the community calls and esp's and eo support and violet garden, and all these amazing things that happened with the community.

M

So it worked to bring the community together and to bring that shared place where we can all talk and then like get to know each other and before eden happened. I was just dogman and nobody knew who I was at all. I never showed my face in the camera. I never talked to anybody in the in the eos community and now I have like a bunch of friends we meet every week and I talk to people.

W

Okay, so your 30 second elevator pitch take part of what you just said and condense that.

M

Didn't elo there picked it for the whole thing or for how it works.

W

Why do you believe, or how do you believe fractally will harness value, and I what you just mentioned now you're kind of on to your 30 second pitch, if you, if you broke it down to like, I, don't know how many 30 seconds is like 50 words or something that or less than 50 words. I don't know, that's where we need to go down to is what is that underlying fundamental value, offering what and then we expand on that instead of here's 50 pages.

T

W

First, you're on to something I'm I'm trying you were on to something just.

M

W

I

It down to 30 seconds or less.

M

Okay, so first I would offer an alternative that is going back to what I'm saying before, like it's very fresh, I'm still thinking about it. So I can try my best to do in 30 seconds, but obviously.

W

It changed your life. You said that you were uh over the last year that you participated in meetings and you felt a part of the community like you never felt before that you felt respected. You felt um like keep going in there.

W

That is the value offering. There are tons of other potential people like you who don't feel valued right now and that's the potential value that fractally could go and harness.

M

W

M

And also the fact that, unlike eden or far better than eden practically empowers communities and empowers people and powers, creators with a credibly, neutral process to allocate value to communities and community members who are doing helpful work so like how bitcoin allocates value subjectively according to who has the biggest computers practically enables communities to allocate value according to how many people, or not how many people according to who is doing the most helpful work for the community. So it provides both those roles.

M

It provides that social role where, especially in this age, there's that book like uh bowling alone or something where, like a lot of people, don't have. You know like fun. Events to go to or a lot of people are alone and don't have that social atmosphere. It provides that provides a social atmosphere and that, like community and sense of belonging and also many different communities, you can join client vision, there'll be all kinds of different interests. You can find a community that has your interest and join meet like-minded people.

M

So, there's that community aspect and there's also the earning aspect from it, whereas like in eden, you could earn some eos once every six months. It was. It was great, but this you can earn every week and earn in a community token that you and all of your friends or community members are all like super aligned with, and you can do it very simply and very easily. You don't have to be like a coder and you don't have to know all this stuff.

M

You can just have like a dream and a vision and something that you want to do or find somebody else who has a dream and a vision find something that's exciting, and you have that social system to cooperate and to talk and get to know each other and have fun and then also be earning yeah.

N

A dog man, yep, are you: are you interested in reaching some consensus on this call.

M

um Yes, what do you mean.

N

How how long was your call, your fractally meeting.

M

About 30 minutes long.

N

And how how long did each person talk.

M

um We talked uh when we each pitched for maybe like five minutes or so, and then I don't know when we did the process.

N

If you talked for 20 minutes, do you feel like that would be disrespectful to other people in the call.

M

um Well, first I'll say: I'm sorry if I'm talking too much on this call- and I I don't mean to be respect and disrespectful at all um and and please feel free to. Let me know if I'm talking too much, I don't think it'd be disrespectful. I mean given the context. If people are, you know telling me that it's not appreciated or not enjoyed or wanted, then then it would be disrespectful.

M

I mean I feel, like I'm doing something, that's helpful for the community because I feel like we have something here that can be super helpful for all of us and it's like one of the most helpful things we can do for all of us in the world as a whole and so to like share my passion about it and to share what I see in it with this community. I think, can be really helpful for all of us. um So no, I don't think it's disrespectful, but please feel free to. Let me talk too much.

M

I I don't want to overstep or anything like that.

A

Yeah subtle down dog man was only expressing his excitement and answering uh eve's his questions.

B

I don't think dogman is talking too much. I appreciate when you guys speak up and speak your minds.

A

Yeah, I'm glad to hear of uh dogman's thoughts and his his unique uh perspectives as well. I'm keen for listening.

A

And it's a fantastic uh practice again, uh you know eve as well uh asking questions which is you know forcing the community because, like you know, if you've asked you know, dogma man, but it forces all of us to to answer that in our heads as to you know what we see back to the yards uh and you know in 30 seconds or less so it's a good exercise for um for everyone.

W

A

W

Component there's a sense of belonging. There's a financial component.

A

H

I mean uh describing steam, but we.

W

Have yeah that's what I was gonna say.

I

W

Have that so in in other platforms? So what's different, though, what what else?

W

I'm I'm not I'm, really not trying to be facetious or trying to shut it down like how can we sell this thing when I'm on calls with with the stakeholders or even aaron, like I'm on calls with aaron, and I'm talking to him like all right, aaron, all right and aaron's, like I'm, not sure? I I understand that part and I'm trying to like defend the idea. Empower me your your 30-second pitch.

W

If you can successfully play it out, I'm literally going to then use that if I really believe in it to go and and when I go talk to people it I'm actually asking because I really want to learn like what are the other components that make this different, that make it so that it's like.

W

I

Needs to be very quick.

W

If not, we lose the attention of people, that's why I keep referring to this idea of a 30 second elevator pitch. Think that you, I mean it's a very known uh concept.

W

If you're in the room with um you know with a vc or let's say you happen to be in an elevator and there's a vc right there and you've got 30 seconds in the elevator, and you need to grab the attention of the person to want to talk to you for the next five minutes to just be open to the idea of giving you that next five minutes, how do you break it down in 30 seconds because, ultimately, in in my opinion, if we want thousands of people into this, because I believe that as a premise, it requires a lot of people.

W

Otherwise it will not um I'm not sure if the audio just stopped, otherwise, unless it will be successful in capturing a large amount of people in a very very short period of time. I I do believe that we're that it will not. um It will not succeed.

W

It needs that very, very, very simple value offering. Why should people care- and that needs to be something that, because you're gonna try to grab people's attentions? I just had a call kind of a I digress, but I just had a call with some somebody that mentioned.

W

um If you know mr beast people know, mr beast he's like a internet sensation right now and it's insane how he's able to eclipse everybody else on youtube in terms of viewer retention, um your account how quickly he was able to increase his viewers- and he focuses all of his time like he breaks it down to a science as much as possible and the whole.

W

The whole thing that he's trying to do is capture people's attention in as quickly as possible capture people's attention and and keep them in and kai. I hear you we're losing people's attention because of the price, yes, and and arguably, if we're able to capture people's attention in a very, very, very quick manner that could affect the price significantly. If you had a flow of thousands and and let's say hundreds of thousands of people, I think that that's exaggerated.

W

But let's start with a thousand: thousands of people um join in a very short period of time that could influence the price. But in order to do that because there's so many things out there competing for people's attention, how will you differentiate yourself- and I haven't heard that from fractally in 30 seconds or less? Why should people care whether they're eos members or non-eos members or blockchain people or not, blockchain people? Why should they care? How are we going to capture their attention.

W

Thank you. We really need that. We actually like this is something that we, if you really believe that, frankly, is going to change the world start by. We need to start by being able to pitch in 30 seconds or less.

W

Do that it's going to be incredibly difficult to get thousands of people uh verbal says, and I guess I'll read so my 30-second elevator pitch for frackly. There are two types of consensus: economic and social economic is about what has happened: transfers transactions, a descriptive type of consensus on objective matters, but in order for these systems to grow, they must be improved by humans. What should we do next? Should we vote on this? Who did what should we update the code?

W

The social consensus or group decision making is about okay, so I'll just stop there, because if I'm a regular joe in the street, you've lost me, we need to dumb it down.

W

We really need to try to make it so stupid, so simple that a five-year-old can understand. You've, I'm sure you've all seen those videos of like how to explain quantum physics to a five-year-old, a a high school student, a bachelor's degree person and you know, phd or whatever we need to build our you know speech for the five-year-old person. It needs to be incredibly simple.

W

Otherwise, in my opinion- and it is entirely possible, I'm wrong. This will not succeed.

W

It needs to be so dumbed down so simple that what we're offering to people they understand it in 30 seconds or less, and they they're they're psyched and they join, and maybe it says something as stupid as like, come and make money, like probably part of it, is going to be that.

M

Yeah, so I agree, it has to be really simple: doesn't necessarily have to be 30 seconds. Some people will watch a five-minute video, like mr beast, if it's entertaining and good the way that I propose to solve this.

W

Mr b's now I'll correct you on that mr b's in the first five seconds. He can tell whether or not you're going to listen to the video. So it's not true that you've got five minutes. You've got the first five seconds to capture the next. Why 25 seconds.

M

Exactly and my proposal and what I've been working on with eden creators for the past nine months or so, um is to build excellent and super effective um video production capacity for the eos community. So as eden happened, I realized the same thing I was like wow. I think eden has a potential to be profoundly beneficial for the world, fractal democracy or true democracy, as we called it. Like.

M

That's super helpful and I listen to all the eden elections and I tried to share it with my friends and I read the book and when I tried to share with my friends they were all like. You know not that interested they were kind of interested, but they weren't interested enough to hear it all out like you're saying because it had something there.

M

That was super powerful, that I think many or all of us sensed and felt that it could be really helpful, but it didn't have that, like immediate excitement, a factor and so then I watched um felix's video, I I think felix lyon flash is here and felix. If you remember, he made this great video, it was about four minutes long and it summarized the eden process and it was. It was really great. I shared it with my friends and family and they got it.

M

um They got it pretty good and they're, like that's cool, they still weren't like emphatic jumping into it like me, or many people in the community, but they got them, they were excited about it, and so one of the great things that separates fractally and even from steam is the video component steam you didn't have.

M

As far as I know, you didn't have the video component, you typed behind a screen, you earned money which is great and you met friends, sometimes, which is great, but you didn't have the video every time that we do an even call or a practice call, or this call too we get video content and audio content, and then we can have creators. Video producers like felix, like chuck like myself, who go back and though we're not super able to say it in 30 seconds.

M

What is exactly the benefit of it, because it's difficult to figure out exactly what the 30 second pitch is. That needs to be best. What we can do is we can make a lot of content. We have like five hours of content, maybe six hours.

M

Who knows how long this is going on for now of all these things that we've said, and at some point all of us or many of us there's been many sentences or like paragraphs or rants rants, like you're talking to eaves and also I wrote a lot of comments about your video production process.

M

You made a great video even like a month ago about your video process that I'll share notes about soon about how we can and use the fractally process to empower like video production capacity so that we don't need to be perfect in 30 seconds of explaining it.

M

We can talk every week on these calls and get a lot of video content and then save the best part that we have look like you're asking me saying: there's something on to that and then figure out how to make it really good and then edit videos that are awesome that pick the best parts of it and make it like really engaging exciting. Like a mr beast, video.

W

John is about to go, eat an enchilada, so I'm just going to read because there's a bunch of people and we seem to be on to something- or at least it's generating- um uh I guess uh interaction with the community right now or the people in the chat, so there's uh get paid for whatever value you want to bring to eos judged by the eos community. Thank you, dario, there's uh from john williamson. It allows people to form dows with the goal of providing public goods recognizing the value people bring by rewarding them tokens.

W

If others value their work, it can be traded for money.

W

There's it's a lot about allowing communities to have a mechanism for advancement and a representation of their contributions to those communities to organize themselves in a way that moves a given topic or cause forge.

W

um I believe this is another one. I guess I I, as a non-developer can create an automated company by just pressing a button complete with governance, tokens, liquidity that talking leadership structures and align incentives. I already have so many things I could use it for uh and then just like how bitcoin has created economic value in a decentralized way by using electricity and cryptography fractally can create social and economic value in a decentralized way by connecting humans and empowering them to come to social consensus.

W

uh I wonder, if um does anybody know of an easy way or relatively simple way, to put something up for vote? I guess simple as possible like would it just be a poll within the community or.

W

And what I'm going to add here is like maybe an exercise uh before next uh fireside chat could be somehow that that we incentivize people to come up with their 30 second pitches. Just like everybody's doing right now, I've read like what six or seven but giving them a little bit more time to do so prior to next wednesday and then jana.

W

I don't know if you're still on yeah you're still on, maybe there's a way for them for us to vote, on which one we believe is best based on what is provided and then uh there and there's a prize at the end, and maybe maybe we get closer to something that then gets adopted by the community as kind of the better and it's not that it becomes the official thing but like people might be like holy. This is a really good way of explaining it. Let's start using that when people ask us the question.

B

I think I think this is great I'll, be giving up pop tokens right now for everyone who wants to throw out a pitch regardless of uh quality or or whatever. Let's just, let's just see,.

W

B

Stuff out there.

W

Internet magic money for your service is pretty good, um so it needs to be. If that's that's, actually pretty good. um It also needs to be so simple and so catchy right. So this internet magic money thing is kind of a joke, but at the same time it's very powerful in terms of branding.

W

And then, maybe afterwards we have the like after the 30 second pitch, we do a similar type of not contest, but you know reaching out to the community to find out all right. What's the then two minute version, because now maybe people will, after your 30-second one they'll be like ah you've got my attention. I want to listen to a little bit more and then you've got the two-minute version after the two-minute version. Then you've got the five-minute version and maybe after the five-minute version, then maybe you have the well.

W

Here's the you know, 10 minute, video or here's the you know the white paper, but you slowly capture somebody's attention because at some point we are going to have to go through that exercise. If really we want to capture thousands of people.

M

I

M

uh In addition to that, it would also be good to make prizes for people who edit videos as well um and put incentives for there. So people can listen to this video and pick out like make a two minute, video or whatever, with some of the best ideas and um also do the same with the fractal that we did on saturday and next saturday's facto.

M

Maybe there can be a weekly reward for people who, edit these fractally talks and um have incentives, so people can make videos, um because otherwise, these videos um they're really long people won't most people won't listen to a five hour into a five hour talk or a uh fractal event that has 10 or 100 people or whatever, that has uh 20 different half hour long videos, but some people when they're being paid to do it and they see benefit in doing so.

M

If there's a prize and like their passion about it, then the prize can also help to incentivize people to watch all those and then pick out the best parts, and that can be both prizes for making the video and then also prizes for like just saving time, stamps and and stuff. Like that.

B

So it's been five hours, we're only 19 hours away from going for 24 hours straight.

C

Yeah we might as well keep going.

W

Yeah, I'm surprised that the number went down the number went down to 25 people and it went back up to uh now. 43., oh my god,.

J

C

I

J

At some point, man.

B

Three and a half hours in, I think is when, when we had max attendance, pretty pretty crazy fireside so far, but it's great, it's been great.

N

J

N

How much do you see yourself as like a kind of a community mediator, because I feel, like that's kind of what you're doing today? That's.

W

I mean that's a big part of my job. That's what it is. That's what uh I should know this, but brandon did we release yeah. We did release the consensus, video right consensus building. Yes, a big part of my job is just this. It's just talking to people.

W

It's it's! Just it's! It's listening! It's actually being there like it's, not it's! Not it's not fake. It's it's actually! Spending the time and being there.

W

I would say: that's I mean daily, I'm in I'm in meetings from uh 9 a.m to uh depending on on the day, because, like my second work day starts, I mean this: it's all one workday, but uh china just woke up, and so my second day of meeting starts, so I typically do meetings between nine and five uh in general and then I eat dinner, because I only eat one meal per day. So I dinner- and I uh do shower with my son- he's two and a half years old.

W

So I try to spend shower time and dinner time with family between five and uh let's say: 6 30 7 o'clock, so about two hours and then my second work day starts from 7 p.m: to about 1 a.m, uh meetings with with the west and the large part of my day is just meetings with people talking to stakeholders, and I mean just listening and then trying to move things forward, making dots, making connections between different people working on similar things or how could they be leveraged or how? How could they?

W

You know work together that type of thing and trying to enable essentially and trying to empower those around in the ecosystem that are working on something that might not be getting the um the visibility. I guess that that I arguably subjectively believe they should that's what I can do in the ecosystem. That's what I've been doing for the last four years.

W

So community building for sure it's it's a, I mean, that's a huge part of what consensus building is, which is kind of funny that um so I talked to dan earlier about this, and I think it was you john that actually wrote that out like how it's funny that fractally is, is saying that it's a tool to help people reach people reach consensus.

W

However, the people building fractally seem to be very poor at being able to reach consensus, um and I talked to dan about that earlier, and that's probably why I people get offended on my behalf, but I'm not offended. I. I really do believe that dan innately does not have that skill set like as a as a human being.

W

It is a trait that he lacks or that he is um not very skillful at, and so what he does as a self-defense mechanism is try to code that function, because he can't actually do it very well himself, and so he tries to put down in computer form so that he doesn't need to do it anymore, so that essentially, that function is being fulfilled externally, because he can't do it internally, and so I don't get offended by a lot of what dan says and people around me get offended on.

W

My behalf, I believe, to a certain extent is because he's incapable of doing that. Naturally, he actually does not mean to harm. He does not mean to push buttons he's just very poor at reaching consensus, he's very poor at communicating effectively.

W

And so he builds tools so that he doesn't have to.

N

W

Think the enf is.

N

Great at communicating, I think you and zach have done a great job, and I really appreciate you spending the time and I'm in disbelief at your patience today. So.

W

um Having a two and a half year old that pulls tantrums a lot helps sometimes I feel like the eoz community is kind of like a two and a half year old. That's pulling a tantrum and the skill set that I'm learning at home definitely helps.

W

It's difficult, it really isn't easy, like we've got a whole bunch of different people. Arguably all trying to help I mean I choose to believe that the vast majority of people inherently are good and the way that in which they're trying to help is the way in which they're capable of helping, um because how else could they it's?

W

So that's kind of I'm not really saying much, but your way of helping in my way of helping may overlap or or they may step on each other's toes and what we're trying to figure out is how essentially not to step on each other's cells and that's extremely difficult, because we're all looking at this from our particular viewpoints we're all trying to contribute in our own way um and that's really hard like it's really really difficult, especially after three years of essentially being in the gutter and being you know, being abused to a certain extent.

W

And so, if there's one thing is that the eos community people, arguably the 42 people or so on. This call um are probably masochistic to a certain extent um and but they're extremely thick-skinned, they're extremely passionate. They probably care very much um and we're trying to make this happen. We just there's no there's no book, there's no magic solution. That tells us what to do we're all trying to figure it out in our own ways.

N

Maybe we could um maybe we could have calls you know focused on the working groups and the progress that they're making. You know because I feel like we haven't, highlighted that enough and we're putting too much focus on. You know a single project, probably for the wrong reasons.

W

uh That is in the works. That's a really good suggestion. So in the feedback process- um and I don't know if zach is still here- he is um there's. Obviously the formal feedback loop that we've been asking um even to the extent of a formal being, you know, guidelines amount of words, minimum amount of words maximum.

W

If it goes through x y z, then you get a certain amount of eos type of thing, um but then there's the more informal approaches of, for example, hosting everything your show and having the people on there's the you know very informal of every week on the fireside chat. It's an item on the agenda to talk about this.

W

So if you have a particular recommendation of uh let's say hosting a call, specifically kind of like the fireside chat, but on another day I don't know, let's say tuesday at 3 p.m- eastern or something like that, but that's for a particular um blue paper. I I'd be all up for that. I think it's really great.

W

It would be awesome for people to even just read, listen in and and give their their opinions. What I'm really hoping to see is uh that certain recommendations from within the papers um get a little bit more. uh You know, weight behind them or that people really get excited by him or even more so something that wasn't captured that should have been captured, and this I talked to with with with the teams as well um like matthew shared originally in this call.

W

What you get is the final product that they deem to be final with, like 45 pages 50 pages. What they have, though, is an extra 150 pages in the background, and they chose to remove some parts or not include some parts, not because they didn't think that those parts were valuable, but they needed to condense it down to a format that would be received and be digestible by the community, and it is possible that they cut some things that they that you know that the community says.

W

We would actually like this uh more so, and so it's it's not even necessarily that they didn't think about it, and sometimes it may be that they didn't think about it. But having those discussions and being able to open it, especially to I think like, for example, you or other developers, because it's very developer focused uh would be great it would. It would be awesome, and so, if you have any like suggestions like that, I'm I'm all up for that that'd be awesome.

W

Ultimately, the enf uh will make decisions on what gets funded, because the budgeting requests are relatively small um and and somewhat capable under our purview or under our current mandate, and so a big part of it will be. You know what do we decide to fund in what order?

W

How can we justify that, based on the feedback that we got and that's something that we can actually deploy, because it's typically it'll be one shot deal like it's, not an ongoing thing necessarily, and that would help me make decisions, and that would help you know, help the team make decisions and help us um uh not journalize, not keep track um document document or yeah like why why we made those decisions just at a loss for words.

N

Yeah you're right, the the blue papers are more developer focused, so it's more difficult to get the a general audience. You know passionate about things like that, even if they're very important.

N

So it's a hard problem to solve for sure.

H

Well, and the hard part also was that we wrote them to not be product focused like there are products in mind with a lot of the things you're reading. It's just. We didn't want to pitch the product, because it's not necessarily the core component that needed to be pitched.

W

So yeah one the reality is well is um the people that were selected could have gone on for months and months and months like there's a lot of stuff that they could have put into this and at some point they needed to like all right. Let's get this out, but the work itself- and this is what we also need to figure out- is how do we continue that function, so the function of being able to spend time to do research to do an enviro?

W

A continuous environmental scan put that on paper present it to the community, have a feedback loop to constantly evolve in real time, while knowing where you're going generally but adjusting very quickly in the short term like that function is quite new, and these blue papers essentially are like an alpha or a beta of a process that I'm trying to create.

W

So the blue paper is is the result of that process, but the process itself is what I'm trying to figure out how to perfect something that we've arguably never had before.

W

Aaron and his team and everybody they're kind of the guinea pigs out of this process, and there's a lot of it that we would that we would do likely that we would do differently now that we've gone through this process once I I believe, like matthew, aaron, both of them did not probably expect- and I didn't expect the amount of time and work that would go into this like how difficult this was.

W

This was very difficult and they didn't have a template to work off of like even just knowing the format of how to present the information.

W

That was the discussion that needed to be had, and it wasn't simple so the next blue papers, the next one that we that we just signed the other day that that's formally begun, is yield plus so yield plus benefits from having four blue papers before it wallet plus benefits from three papers before api plus benefits from two papers before and hopefully at some point, we get better at the process, but we also get better at the resulting format at the subsequent feedback mechanism at the selection at the how these get funded.

W

Like there's a lot of moving pieces into this, and things have changed significantly so in the beginning, these were core pillars. When ted came in, he was trying to just figure out like what's the difference between a core pillar and a working group, and why do some working groups have blue papers and others don't and why are they all called plus and like well all right?

W

Let's backtrack when zach and I started it was just the two of us and we had an idea and we didn't have the luxury to like figure out how this would work in six months from now. We need to do it right now and so now, we've in a way accumulated debt like technical debt in a way of process or process debt.

W

I should say- and we're now going back to kind of clean that up, so that the process itself gets much smoother much better as we go forward so that the teams that end up participating in this in the future don't need to go through what the teams that currently did went through.

H

I'm sure there's a joke in here somewhere about oh, don't be part of eos. If there wasn't some form of death.

W

Oh, that's so bad.

W

Yeah, this is a really challenging process for the for the teams, like the.

I

Amount of work that went.

W

Into these blue papers um is is astronomical. It was really really a lot of work and a lot of um not just the work for the blue papers themselves, but the process of like these teams went out to the community and sought feedback from the community, and then these teams, never in in some cases, had never formally worked together. So even the process of figuring out how to work together with a team. That's really not from an uh like delegated authority.

W

Nobody has delegated authority over one another and so very decentralized fashion of working, but having a blurry but kind of concrete scope of work, but really not that concrete. All of that is will get perfected over time.

W

I hope that answers your question, john, and actually, I think it kind of answers the question as well or addresses it a little bit the question you asked earlier about: how do we, let's say elevate or or if there was a you know, another dao or another company that came in? How do we ensure that they, you know, get a fair kick at the puck type of thing like? How can how can we ensure that they also uh have a same chance of being successful in the ecosystem?

W

A big part of what we went through with the blue papers? um I think, will come and help in that direction to ensure that that we have that possibility in the future. Ideally, we have so much work on the road map um that we don't have enough teams and that now we're able to go out to rfp and we're able to you know, attract more developers because there's funded work waiting for them and then that might open a door that might get people to come in.

W

That might build them some reputation, which then might open a door for them to get future funding and- or you know to now be a part of the community from a developer perspective.

W

Because again, I believe that the developer stakeholder type is different than perhaps the fractally or eden stakeholder type.

J

Don't forget, I really choose coming march 22nd.

W

Part of that, as well as.

J

Pass skip the line pass, that's what we're that's! What the mello is for sure for sure.

W

J

Your way up to uh to the fast pass like dan's, got.

H

J

Everyone's tattoo.

H

J

W

While aaron, I think you have a you've got more than one tattoo. I think your body's covered in tattoos by now you're, like the yeah yeah yeah, got a lot of tattoos at this point.

W

Are they tattoos or scars, I'm not even sure, I think more of them.

H

They add to one another.

N

Yeah, I think thanks a lot for answering my questions, eva. I really. I really appreciate the work you guys do. I don't know if I say it enough, but um it's it's uh incredible to see what you guys have done in a short amount of time and it's it kind of makes you a little sad about how much you know lost like it makes you just think. Oh man, what if we had this a year ago, you know where would we be now?

N

You know just be just the contrast of how far we've come in such a short ride.

W

Yeah, but I guess we weren't there, yet I guess, as a community, we just didn't, have the uh the foundation in place to be able to uh to be where we're at today um on that, as well kind of to answer, so I mentioned earlier that we we hired uh core developers, so we secured core developers that will be beginning at the beginning of april um for the community and uh in order really to to be able to have that redundancy at the highest level of core developers and the amount of core developers that exist out there for eos, are you can name them on one hand?

W

It's very very few at that level. uh Another thing that we recently secured um this person will be starting next week, so ted joined us early in in february, so he's been with us now for a month and it's been amazing. His level of uh experience I mean ted was a vp advance of america. When I was two years old, ted has been at the c-suite for 34 years.

W

Ted is you know, he's he's, you know he what he brings to the table and what he brings internally to the enf is incredibly valuable um and even just in the last month, what he's brought uh to inside to the enf, but also like for those who are in the eos ao plus our working group are starting to see what ted can bring to the table is extremely valuable. I mean he's they're people that can implement and operate, and you know ensure that things work and he's very much uh that type of of person right.

W

So I zach and I can create all these crazy visions and these crazy ideas. Somebody needs to implement them and we've been zach and I originally were doing both right.

W

We were kind of creating the vision, while also implementing, at the same time and doing a half-assed job at it um when it became apparent that, in order for us to continue hitting the milestones that we wanted to attain that, we would need somebody with that particular skill set to ensure that every target we set we hit and or if we're not going to hit that we know why.

W

We can explain why if we see that we're going to hit a wall that we see well before, we actually hit the wall so that we can adjust so that we can see that if there are particular files that are perhaps overlapping or that there's dependencies between files, that you know somebody that can actually see that well beforehand and then adjust and course correct et cetera. um Ted is definitely that that person that's what he brings to the table at the at the very highest level.

W

uh Another function that we just added uh is is a is somebody called jeff and he's going to be starting next monday and he's going to be our vp of operations.

W

Jeff, has uh you know, pmp pgmp um jeff is kind of a program manager, type of person, so he'll ensure like more boots on the ground, so similar function to ted, but way more boots on the ground, program, management, project management, type of thing, but again at the very highest level, and so that'll help us with the working groups the the ongoing ones right because part of the issue with the current working groups, they didn't necessarily have the support that I wish I could have given them or that the enf could have given them to ensure their success and ongoing.

W

We want to continue having these working groups, but we need to embed somebody in the working group. That's capable of you know, of of keeping them on track and ensuring that ensuring their success in a way, um and so the working groups in a way were very much left on their own to figure things out and aaron was you know, given an extra responsibility of kind of being that relay between the four working groups, the original four core pillars, um but now we'll have that function internally to the foundation.

W

Where again, everything we do, hopefully ted helps us attain those targets. But then somebody embedded within those those particular programs or projects also has the skill set to ensure the success of that particular project and how that would be extrapolated and how I see that growing as well.

W

Is that at some point it's nice if we can give funding to teams, but if we also don't give the extra support to ensure their success, we're not really securing our investment in a way or increasing the likelihood that an investment pays off and by investment I mean because we're using inflation, we're using token holders tokens right, and so we don't really have the luxury of placing bats and not being able to follow through as much as possible to minimize or mitigate the risk that could have been foreseen and so having those functions.

W

Internal to the enf would mean concretely, for example, in pomelo being able to track people not for them to be accountable, but for us to offer support to perhaps help them ensuring that they can attain their targets so like program manager but embedded within the teams but subsidized by the foundation, so that function that a lot of teams don't have. They can now have access to.

W

So it's not just the funding, but it's the marketing support. It's the communication support it's the program, management support, etc, etc, etc. So jeff will be starting next monday, and I think that that will also come john in a way answer the question of what you mentioned before, where certain people don't necessarily need that extra support, but those who do will now have access to it through the enf. Ideally,.

W

Went very silenced, very quiet.

H

That did I mean it's.

B

Okay, to take a few minute breaks after five and a half hours guys right.

H

I was gonna say that function certainly would have helped me. I know a lot of my effort went into coordination and I'm not good at it, so it probably took me twice as long or three times as long as somebody who's good at it would have taken.

H

W

Very much for doing it.

H

Though yeah I I felt I was in a position where I knew the topics well enough to be able to kind of figure out which silo they belonged in, so give it a shot.

W

And that's what we intend on doing with the uh the the three core developers as well.

W

The enf doesn't have projects per se or it doesn't have a definitely doesn't have a product like the enf itself is the product, but the enf doesn't have products, and so the idea behind the three developers or regardless of what the other three or not the idea behind having developers accessible to the community, is for the community to uh through the consensus mechanisms that we have right now on the feedback, loops, etc to figure out where those resources should be deployed so that we can come and help essentially through subsidy in a way ensure that those resources are available for um for the community and ultimately for for the elsio working group as well.

W

And actually maybe that's a good segue, because I don't think I've um not in the uh fireside chats anyways, but uh this is another thing that I hear a lot is that eos is subsidizing all of the other chains um and at first of all I don't agree to that. So I think that's, uh it's that's a very narrow way of seeing things, and so uh if people still feel that way, that means uh that I guess we haven't communicated effectively enough of what the vision is or what the reasoning is behind that.

W

If, by default, every chain goes its separate way now that block one is no longer fulfilling the function of core code development, the costs associated to maintain the code base with the premise that we all win. Our separate ways is going to be 100, so anything that eos needs it will pay 100 for so when people say you're subsidizing other chains. Actually, that's not true.

W

If this eosio plus continues the way that it's going and it it essentially fulfills the vision that I'm that I'm attempting to create instead of paying 100 eos, would actually only pay. Let's say 70, I'm throwing a fictional number out there, but it would reduce our cost to continue what we we would inevitably need to do. Anyways, that's just from that side of things.

W

The other uh key components that it will help is, uh if again, based on the premise of if we're successful and if this continues is unifying, the community bases is aligning. The financial incentives is uh opening the amount of developers and resources available to eos, because a lot of those those resources have been in other chains and those are the chains arguably have uh innovated more than eos has on certain fronts, and so it's not true that eos is footing the bill by itself.

W

A lot of what has been coming out in terms of innovation has actually come out of the other chains and not eos. So in a way, they've been uh subsidizing eos to a certain extent in in certain um certain facets, uh but the idea very much is to try and and we've never done this before is actually to work as a group like all of us together as an eosio, a community. It is not true that we did that before.

W

Just because block one threw a little a couple: yasayo hashtags did not mean that they actually did the work required to unify the chains and to get everybody working towards a common goal that never happened. The first time that all chains got on a call together to my knowledge, was like two months ago.

W

That is the first time in four years that the chains at the highest level of leadership actually got on calls and then since then, getting on calls every single week and in between those calls a bunch of sub-working groups, concretely working towards actual goals and actual tangible deliverables that affect, and that benefit every other chain. That has never happened in four in four years, not once so.

W

I do not agree with the idea that we've done this before and it's yet again, yes, putting the bill that has never happened and arguably is happening for the first time and eos is definitely benefiting from that.

W

Eos might be currently putting up some funds up, but even just the notion of putting the funds up without having any funds transferred, got a bunch of value to eos people actually showing up and doing some work um and there's you know like, for example, telos has been amazing. Douglas has been amazing, kirsten justin, um there's, there's a bunch of people in those calls that have been amazing on actually showing up and doing real work and eos has not paid a cent for that at all.

W

We have not paid one cent for that. The only monies that eos has spent is currently sixty thousand dollars for a third-party branding agency, um which is the first payment of two to figure out what eos io could be branded to. Otherwise the person leading the project justin has not been paid. One cent, everybody else figuring out to do that. Work has not been paid one cent, um and so I do not agree with the the. uh I guess premise that eos is putting the bill and getting nothing in return.

W

Eos is getting a lot of value. Tremendous value in actually not paying anything. Everybody is committing human capital at this point without being compensated at all, and if this continues going in that direction and and we're just seeing the tip of the iceberg, this could create tremendous value for eos and all other chains.

N

Hey eve: do you have any thoughts on mending the relationship between eos and telos, just informally? It seems like there's some friction in the community there that yeah warranted. In my opinion,.

W

Yeah, um I mean, I think it starts uh like doug and I, for example, like there's this there's been this this again. This idea that douglas and I um didn't like each other and wherever that came about there's, probably some. You know some factors that contributed to that some true, some untrue, um doug and I talked about this on a few occasions and you can just join the calls like you just listen into the calls.

W

If doug and I can see eye to eye and we can actually collaborate and we actually talk to each other and we it's not fake. It's not it's not just for show. There's, no reason why the communities shouldn't like each other, because that's really where a lot of it started apparently or that's that's key to it.

W

um The enf is working, for example, with the telos core developer group, uh jesse um and matias from elsa argentina and jesse from the core uh telus core developer group are working on the architecture of the evm together, uh justin from infinity block is working on the branding for yasaio plus and him, and I are talking about the evm side of things, but from a marketing slash business side of things uh in the calls I mean kirsten is, I believe he works for the telos foundation. um I might be wrong on that he's.

W

The one who uh is the the um the chair of the meetings essentially and takes the agenda and creates the agenda and leads the the meetings and he's intel is doing amazing work. I think part of how or I guess, the concrete steps of how to break down those barriers that seemingly exist. I believe that they are real. They do exist.

W

There is tribalism is showing up every day and showing that no, we can't work together and that there is no animosity and it's just going to be one day at a time, and once people see the people at the highest level, working together and being real, then hopefully that will start breaking down walls at the community level, but it's just one day at a time. One day at a time like I was serious, we had this this discussion inside of the oscio plus.

W

um I suggested that, should there be an executive director, um the first executive director of yasayo plus, should it be, let's say, appointed or something like that that symbolically it should be douglas, and that I would uh I would support that, like I'm, the one who gave that nomination and and douglas is he's saying he doesn't have the time etc.

W

But I still believe that even that gesture of should there be such a thing and should at some point we do look internally and um the douglas raise his hand, even just something as simple as me, being the one nominating douglas and then backing him would go a huge weight or a long way towards uh repairing the er or addressing the tribalism that exists in uh eos and uh uh attelos, because douglas and I have very similar personalities- and I mean we're we're polarizing as figures- we're very vocal as figures.

W

We've got uh dominant personalities um as as figures, and so uh a lot of I guess this animosity is like the e versus douglas thing, and if that didn't exist, that would you know that in itself could be very, very powerful as a as a message and it really doesn't exist like every. There is knows that there there is nothing there, um but people will only start.

W

I think believing it or realizing it after a sustained period of time, where yeah we're just we're working together, we're contributing together.

W

But that's a hard one to crack. It's a that's a really difficult one. So it's not maybe not as simple as that. I'm oversimplifying it.

W

Because that one runs deep, I mean the the telos holders and the eos holders that one runs really deep.

W

Devs working together, we saw it in the blue papers. A lot of the tello steps are, or a lot of blog producers, sorry that produce also on telos like again, these are a lot of times. These are fictional dramas that were created, they're, not even based on on anything tangible. Anything, real and they've just been accepted, as fact for so long that they've become real.

W

And breaking that down is is really difficult because, yes, part of it is just not um it's uh it's fictional in its nature and so breaking down that fiction is is creating a new reality is, is quite difficult, and so it just takes time. I think it you know, simplify tldr time just needs time.

N

I mean there is something poetic about the tribalism and then coming together and uh you know joining together. You know to make each other stronger and there's a lot of drama. There's a lot of there's a lot of stories in this ecosystem.

W

Because people like that people, like the drama and people like like an enemy right, like one of the reasons like pepsi and coker, are two famous examples of that, where they fed of they fed off of the drama between each as a means to become extremely extremely successful within their their fields right, they dominated the market. Another really really good example of that is uh phelps and lock the american swimmers that dominated swimming in the olympics for for a decade, um phelps, obviously, is the one that that everybody knows and he won.

W

I don't know how many gold medals 14 or something like that, like a ridiculous amount of gold medals. Arguably one of the reasons why phelps was so successful was because his training partner, locke and him were so competitive one against another.

W

They just pushed each other to be so much stronger, and so that kind of anti-thesis to your thesis is actually a really powerful tool to be able to grow fast, like the idea of having an enemy or a target, or somebody to chase against or to to beat, is an extremely powerful narrative that that you know can be leveraged.

W

It can become toxic, and I think that that's where it has been, but the underlying concept of having a target is extremely powerful in order to create innovation in order to move things forward,.

W

I'm not even yes to tello's no to factual. Let's go home, I'm not even sure what that means, but it makes me laugh. What's not a factual.

T

Woman fractally.

H

Maybe the spell checker got it.

W

Got it got it um yeah, so we're like we're like five hours and 40 minutes in um I can keep going if people want to keep going, but I mean I've been monopolizing the chat now for for well over an hour. I do very much enjoy hearing other people talk and I do enjoy the back and forth when the community members do back and forth in the channel, because it also gives me a sense of what I need to look at, like maybe maybe biases that I have that.

W

I'm uh that I'm blind spots that I might not be um you know seeing so it's it's. It's really really helpful for hearing other people do the back and forth and argue and debate and such.

T

I've got one thing that I I wanted to share. It's just uh just a thought. uh I realize this. It feels like a very messy process, especially being in it, but one thing to keep in mind is that uh a messy process means that we have a decentralized system if it were not messy. That would be because we have one entity controlling everything and that's not not what's going on so every time I see the messiness of the process.

T

This is just sort of my uh my way of I don't know. Maybe maybe it's just me justifying it to myself, but um it the way I like to look at it is that uh essentially we thought we had a centralized entity, helping things out in block one and then that disappeared and so we're sort of bootstrapping um decentralization, and I think that's uh that the messiness of the process is just evidence that it is in fact pretty decentralized.

W

Very much so if there's one thing, um there's a few things to unpack there, um steph shared with me, stefan uh shared with me a few months back uh the origin or or perhaps supposed origin of the term ethereum killer, and uh apparently that term or yeah. Apparently, that term stems from consensus, there's actually consensus that started marketing this term, because what it would do is actually get everybody to talk about a theorem right. If you, if everybody starts saying they're the ethereum killer.

W

Well, now the baseline is a theorem, and so it's an exceptionally uh successful branding mechanism and obviously eos fell embraced that everybody that actually thought that maybe they were ethereum killer and now they have the target, because everybody's talking about ethereum and so now they yeah they they embrace that and they actually try to um uh to uh to to. I guess they place that at the forefront of of their mission statement and or their you know their mandate, um so anyways that that's part of it.

W

The other thing that ethereum did very well or that consensus did very well was funding articles and funding um materials to showcase the ethereum. That eos was incredibly centralized when in fact it really wasn't centralized, but what that did- and this is why they were successful at it- was it triggered a response in the eos community to prove to everybody else that it wasn't centralized by decentralizing even further and as a self-defense mechanism to a fault where it was so decentralized that I actually couldn't get anything done, and it was so chaotic there was no.

W

There was no way that it was centralized, as you just mentioned. If it was centralized, it would have been a really efficient machine and we've all seen that it's not an efficient machine. It is chaotic, it is very chaotic um and that's also something that we kind of felt trapped to. We focused a lot of our time, trying to prove to everybody that we were decentralized to the point where we were so decentralized. We couldn't actually get anything done and to anybody that really was in the system.

W

You knew we were decentralized, because we couldn't get anything done.

T

Yeah- and I think what we've currently got is a pretty good balance, just in terms of because uh uh enf uh it was sort of elected in a uh decentralized way, at least as decentralized as the selection of block producers is. It was.

W

Appointed, I wouldn't say it's elected, but it was appointed.

T

um But that uh that allows us, since I I mean I don't mean this as a slight in any way, but enf is more centralized than say uh that group of block producers.

W

Themselves, hyper centralized yeah.

I

W

Yeah, we don't shy away from that at all like what actually one of the the um when the website comes out. uh I'm not sure exactly what the text is, but one of the things in in the content on the website will be reintroducing centralization to a decentralized system. um We're not again we're not attempting to hide that we're centralized.

W

What we are lacking was centralization, whereas our competitors, all the other chains, launched with foundations, they had that central authority or entity, sorry and authority in a way that could uh move very quickly and make decisions um uh much much quicker. Let's say the decentralized counterpart in the ecosystem, eos hasn't had that. We've been lacking that function and so very much.

W

The enf is centralized very, very much so by design, and it has enabled us to move extremely rapidly over the last six months, making decisions that otherwise the system would not be able to make um in in the format that it was in and still to this day I mean it would not be.

W

The eos is not set up in a way to be able to make the decisions as quickly and um that the enf cam, uh which means that it's it's a very slow moving machine and enf, essentially tries to set out, by being extremely rapid and uh very quick, iterations, very often small, quick iterations.

W

So there's no slide or like no. We embrace that. That is that. That is what we are trying to, that. The the gape or the hole that we're trying to fill.

T

One thing: sorry uh you, you can go for it. I've been talking a bit.

N

I I guess I was just thinking about how decentralization isn't actually the goal of what we're trying to do here. You know decentralization is just a tool which enables certain things right, but no one actually wants a fully decentralized system. They just want the benefits that decentralization confers right and the benefits are resiliency.

N

You know it's, uh it's not pro. It's a yeah, basically mostly it's just resilient right, um but there's only a certain level of resiliency that you actually need from decentralization and any additional decentralization beyond that is extremely expensive in terms of manpower in terms of uh computing power and in terms of uh in you know, infrastructure and things like that.

N

So uh there's I think, actually the objective of blockchains and you know distributed communities or whatever is it's supposed to be to create valuable tools that improve people's lives, and decentralization just happens to be one of the tools that we employ to accomplish. That.

W

Goal yeah, it's an extra add-on, it's an extra feature right and that's that's part of the problem is because we're in blockchain in innately a lot of people, I think focused very early on that the main value offering was decentralization when, in fact, if you don't have a centralized system that is functional that creates value, then you're you don't get the benefits of then adding decentralization on top of it to make it resilient.

W

If the ultimate goal is just decentralization, you may not get to the point where that decentralization actually brings value, because you just you might you might die before you get there like your system might fail before it gets there, and so very much. Decentralization is a spectrum first of all, so there's centralization and decentralization and everything it's a spectrum and it's it's a balance.

W

Ultimately, like you said it's a tool, it's an extra function, an extra benefit to create that resiliency and sustainability, and and also a broader viewpoint of capturing being able to being able to capture broad viewpoints et cetera.

W

But if you don't have a system, that's well oiled to begin with decentralization at a certain extent actually becomes um a negative return on investment uh if applied too much early on and or if applied too much of an extreme. Also later on, like you mentioned at some point, it becomes a negative return on investment.

T

So eve I had a quick question um related to decentralization: um does the enf have any uh sort of roadmap, or at least trajectory for um kind of uh electing a new representative? If you will, I don't know if that question makes sense to you.

W

Yeah that question has been asked on multiple occasions um in a way, it's kind of a double-edged sword, so I'll try to explain it as as broad as possible. If I were to tomorrow say that I'm um resigning from the enf, the likelihood is that this whole thing dies uh the likely or even, if, let's say I said, I'm going to resign in a year from now, which is ultimately probably what I'm going to do at some point still trying to figure it out.

W

But at some point the system that we will have created will be strong enough.

W

That the function that it fills will know will have the track record that it will no longer be brought into question as to whether or not that function is useful to the ecosystem and so I'll be in a position to be able to say in a year from now or whatever an x amount of time. From now I will resign, and so therefore community you need to figure out a way to replace me. You've got a year or you've got x amount of time.

W

If I do that too early, then the system in place where the function in place is not solid enough, that it might actually cause a negative effect of shocking the system and uh uh bringing down investor confidence and bringing down community confidence or developer confidence, etc.

W

If I do it too long in in too long of a time or too far down the line, then uh it risks uh having entrenchment of that particular function as it exists through me in the system, so that delicate balance of when to do so, I haven't figured out why? How that's just the function? Let's say if somebody could replace me the reality.

R

Though, is that.

W

If I were, let's say, let's assume that tomorrow we had an election and somebody could become the next eve tomorrow.

W

First of all, I do not know of anybody else that could fulfill that function and realistically as well, the enf doesn't have fun. So I don't. I don't think people still clearly understand that the enf continuously has to go reach consensus to obtain funding. So if, if you, for example, were in my shoes tomorrow, how the would you go and ask um the system, as it currently exists, to allocate funding to you?

W

The system is not in place yet like it's, just not realistic, it we're not there yet. So, even if you wanted to so, I think we're still too early, but it is um is imperative that it does not take too late. So part of the idea behind fracklin, eden and me supporting it was that that system could eventually perhaps replace the current mechanism.

W

That system isn't ready, yet we're nowhere near there yet, and at this point, with the amount of people in the community and the skill sets that we have in the community, I'm also not convinced that somebody even could fulfill that role. Right now, prove me wrong. Go for it. I don't know of anybody else right now that has the skill set required to do what I'm doing right now, and that's no good- and it's not just me. I've said this to aaron, for example, aaron is wearing so many hats right now. That is no good.

W

It's not that aaron's bad! It's just aaron should not be wearing seven hats. We need seven errands instead, um so it's it's not doesn't that issue or that problem or that concern doesn't just apply to the enf. It applies in our ecosystem as a whole. We just don't have enough people, we we don't have redundancy of functions. We don't have redundancy of skill sets we're just not there yet.

W

And that is ultimately a problem that we're trying to address like we need more people.

T

Well, I'm glad to hear that, because what I was going to recommend is that you uh uh sort of wait to um consider stepping down until there is a clear method of reaching consensus on who would come next. But um one one comment is. I uh was not aware of the fact that uh the a f has to uh essentially ask the block producers for any funds that they're trying to deploy, and that's uh that actually is uh to me very uh suggests uh less centralization than I had assumed about the enf.

T

So that might be something that you may want to highlight in your communications.

W

Oh we've, we've highlighted on multiple occasions, um I mean clearly we have to do a better job at it. I think part of it as well as people hear what they want to hear, and I see that through, for example, the ask for frackly where people say why? Don't you just allocate inflation? That function doesn't exist even if you wanted to make that decision tomorrow. It's not a thing so right now, the only way that inflation can be allocated is to the block producers directly or the second bucket is to eosio.saving yasayo.

W

That saving is a system account. The system account is controlled by yasayoda prods. That system account and every other system account it. I would never want that to be in the hands of anybody, and so the accounts that were created under that um the for for the enf, the one is eosio.grants.

W

So what eos? What the enf does is every um every couple of months, or I guess it's happened on two occasions, so it happened late august when the enf asked for funding to kick-start its funding it trans. It asked for a transfer of 3.5 million eos give or take, which was sitting in the legacy. Ram and name fee accounts prior to rex being enabled. Then those fees were accumulating, and so I asked for a transfer.

W

It then ran on that budget for a period of time on that treasury for a period of time until uh ian during christmas period so late december, it uh asked for another transfer of funds, and this time around it asked for uh 6.5 million eos, and uh that was you know through the basically it's the top. The block producers need to come to consensus, um and so the enf goes back to the block producers whenever it needs a top-up of funding.

W

Now at any given time, though, whenever even that eosio.grants account has a timer set on it of 72 hours so anytime that those funds move, uh it needs to wait 72 hours before those funds are actually moved and during that period of time the enf has to tell the block producers I'm doing or I'm proposing a particular m-sig. Here's the m-sig, here's what we're asking it for and then the block producers can intervene and stop it at any point. If they don't stop it, 72 hours goes through. Then those funds are transferred.

W

Those funds either from eos io grants directly to, for example, pomelo, so for anything that would trigger a non-for-profit status. So anything that doesn't have an invoice on the other end can go from eos io without grants to whatever account that requires the 72 hours. The other side is if the enf requires or is in need of operational top-up for its own expenses, any any kind of an administrative expense. Then it asks a transfer from eosio.grants to admin that grants still subject to that 72-hour period.

W

Once it's in and min min.grants, then the enf has control over those funds, and but then because it's a not for profit, it can only transfer in what it has an expense for. So everything that you see go from eosio.grams to admin.grants it's because there is a liability on the other end because we're not for profit.

W

It has to be zero for every um for every income there needs to be an expense one for one um and at any given time in all of this, the enf has also given pre-authority, based on the on the eua on the yes user agreement to the block producers. So this eosio.grants account the owner keys are, is yasaya the products. The active key are zac myself and one of the block producers dafong.

W

At any time, we've also given authority to the block producers to even intervene and take over any of the keys of any of the accounts that we use should they deem the enf to no longer be providing value and or to be malicious, et cetera, et cetera. So should they do that, we've already given them pre-authority, which actually then, um I guess, is in line with the eos user agreement that that people have signed and then that would essentially terminate and effectively kill the enf as it as it stands.

W

So the enf very differently than other foundations does not have a treasury. It does not have access to tokens. It continuously has to showcase value creation, and the block producers need to continuously agree that value is being created for the enf to be able to continue operations.

T

Cool well, that was that was very interesting to learn about. I appreciate you sharing that.

W

And like I'm so there's uh uh there's uh seven uh board members on the enf and I'm in I'm in calls with them at least once per week, every single one of them like that's. Why I mentioned earlier that I'm in calls with aaron. Well, I'm in calls with aaron a lot because he was designing the blue papers. So here's one hat. He was then so he's an api plus one hat he's in wallet plus another hat.

W

He was the appointed person to be kind of the relay to all four um uh core pillar working groups: here's another hat, he's head delegate or chief delegate: there's another hat: he's the enf uh he's on the enf board: that's hat number five and he's a block producer. That's hat number! Six.

W

That's not sustainable for anybody and essentially there's a lot of people that are wearing multiple hats, not by choice, but because this is where we're at right now, there's just no other alternative.

W

So, yes, very much trying to work towards that, no longer being the case that is not sustainable for in in many different ways.

T

Well, shout out to aaron for all that hard work and everyone else in the enf too. It's much appreciated by uh non-non-developers, like myself,.

H

Been a lot of collaboration over the past six months, it's been good. We just need to get more people involved now.

W

I mean we're, I would say that we're on to something the the the overall mood in the last six months has significantly changed.

H

Oh there's still some similar undertones, but, oh for sure,.

W

I'm not yeah, I'm not saying we're there, I'm not saying it's done, but we're on to something I I can stand behind that statement that we're on to something.

H

Still a ways to go: yep.

W

So yes, we are, we just crossed the six hour mark.

W

There's a statement that was there uh a few things so phoenix uh asked: would each of those core folks consider a shadow program which core fo? Are you talking about the core people right now in the system like which court are you talking about phoenix we're talking.

E

About the three engineers I think.

H

I was going to bring out regards to almost everything I mean yeah like we need padawan.

W

uh I'm talking about the various hats, uh yes, I mean, I mean. Definitely yes, yes, the answer is, is yes, we need to figure out a way to train people to create redundancy for sure, yes yeah. I I would like.

T

Arguably, the blue papers.

E

W

Of do this, like arguably the blue papers. Do this fractally um in a way would also kind of do this, as people would have a mechanism to onboard onto the community.

W

Obviously you know people would have more respect and others less respect, and then at some point you would learn from those with more respect and what they're doing, and that would in a way kind of be like a shadow program um yeah. I I I it's something that we do need to um to work on uh the I'm not sure I understand this. I don't know if it's a question or statement this flow of enf funding should really be drawn out. Oh you mean like drawn out like put on a chart uh yeah.

W

uh This is really important to convey in an easy to understand way, probably only a couple of people's a couple of people's heads right now glad it's at least recorded uh yeah we've. um Clearly, if people still um didn't know about it or didn't understand it, then yes, there.

W

That means that we need to do a better job at communicating that, for sure our website has been a very long painful journey, but with ted joining last month it really went into high gear and we are working on having some of those more visuals a part of the website. So definitely yes,.

W

We're starting to lose people, then, when we're down to 37 36 37.

W

um I mean and like shout out to like you, you talk about as well like shadow program, uh the work that you you started doing phoenix with hackathon, for example, actually kind of plays a key role into that. um Hackathons are a venue typically, where you'll have mentors and you'll have new developers come in and you you create the environment for the beginnings of shadow programs to um to emerge.

H

And hackathons, specifically like as we were in the wallet paper, we have new sdks, it's one of the proposals, um one of the things that's mentioned either in the paper or in the budget or something is we should once these are released, have hackathons around them like take this new thing and build something around it like. What can you do with this? Let's show the world.

W

uh So on that, I'm not sure if uh you were aware, aaron phoenix has been a leading.

W

I believe this is the third week um hackathon planning session, uh and so uh what you just mentioned would be interesting like if, because one of the questions that we had in those calls would was, you know if we wanted to come up with a theme or what would be kind of the the goal of the hackathon or the theme of the hackathon.

W

Something like that, if you had a really good idea based on the blue papers, that could be something like the hackathons could be just generally pick something from the boot papers or something like that. I I didn't think about.

H

That potentially- and I mean the reason I haven't well- I mean my hats- are one reason I haven't got too much involved in that discussion, but the ideas I'm having right now are probably like six months out at least before there's something for developers to play with and hack on.

W

Well, so pomelo plays a key role in there as well, right pomelo being a um in a you, know, a way kind of a reputation platform, but also a way for people to start to get known and then for people to start helping each other out. Once they've built some funding and or build teams to be able to access funding the other part, that's still not live. Yet.

W

That's in the works, which I think arguably will also come and help in that regard will be the bounty section where people will be able to build a rep or build their reputation and then start take on bounties and address bounties.

W

Maybe some of them are are smaller, so I know that git coin, for example, uses the bounties as part of their uh mentorship program, or I guess, um uh shadow program to a certain extent where they put out very small bounties for people to do and then, when they hire in the community, they actually go. Look at who did bounties and how many points they've racked up and like some of the bounties specifically were for hey.

W

If ever you want to get a job like take on this bounty, we just want to see the kind of work that you can do type of thing, and so that that's something that's not there. Yet that's in the works that will come and also you know it's not one thing. It's it's a lot of different things.

J

Yeah one of the things I noticed in season, one of the mellow that those who participated we're starting we're learning how to collaborate. The community, we're learning about the open source culture, we're learning about hey when we're building something, let's think about how we can componentize it better, so that others in the community can benefit from those components.

J

uh These are you know different ways of approaching how we, how we do things that previously weren't doing.

W

No, I think it's still going, I'm actually just reading uh for the last. So this is, I mean this is what people don't see. That's really amazing uh about elsio or eos, actually that the mainnet, specifically um the mainnet, is often because I can't comment from others, because I I just I like. I was a vp on wax and I was a vp on ultra and I was a bp on on other chains, but and and it never occurred there, it only occurred on eos.

W

But I can't comment on the changes that I wasn't a bp on eos uh in large part because of its market cap gets attacked. A lot like it is the obvious target. um The main gets attacked very very frequently, and the majority of you have never even known about it.

W

Don't even like you, it hasn't affected you, you just you're you're, just not aware, and for the last I guess two and a half hours or so um there's been some some issues on the main ad and it seems like again perhaps it's a particular account that is is causing the problem. uh But we've been on this call for two and a half hours and nobody's brought it up um again going back to. We don't have a block production problem. What we've had is a funding problem.

W

The mainnet is extremely resilient in terms of its capacity to handle, uh uh I guess: attacks like real real live attacks.

W

The mainnet is attacked all the time uh in order to try and cause disruption in order to try and come and steal some of that market cap value type of thing, uh and I'm just catching up on chats in the background uh the bps are, you know, trying to resolve this and trying to figure out what's going on and what's causing this and thwart off that attack type of thing, and when I see that it always makes me smile because, like there's a lot of really really good uh about what what we've created over the last couple of years on the technical front, um this chain is incredibly battle tested like really really battle tested.

W

The community's battle tested too, I don't know anymore, yeah, more hardened community. I think that's a yeah.

W

I still see this. I still see this um propensity towards a cult of personality that comes through. Sometimes, yes, I'm not sure. That's a human trait, though that really doesn't have to do with eos or blockchain. That's a bigger, I shouldn't say problem, but that's that's much bigger than us.

W

People gravitate towards personalities.

W

There was a um there was an interesting exchange on twitter between romney, james and dan larimer over the past week or so, and rami said something along the lines of how he didn't want like dan to be the leader. um He wanted, like a decentralized governance process and dan said that that he agreed with that, um and I think he said like that's why he was trying to build it or something like that, and then I replied with a tweet that um I think is really well put, and I love it and it's it's.

W

I saw it last year and it stuck with me. You know reverberated my mind a lot. It's from balaji srinivasan who's, an awesome thinker um and he said like decentralization, doesn't mean um an absence of leaders. Decentralization or decentralized communities need an abundance of leaders. um So there's a lot of people with like really I don't know if compelling is the right word, but like just great leaders, great leaders who have great visions, great stories, great ideas and so forth, and so um I don't know like yeah.

W

Sometimes people get um too focused on on one leader and I suppose that's maybe what john was meaning about cult of personality and kind of forget about the other leaders um and there's just so many like great leaders in the eos community. It's it's super super inspiring um but like like everybody on this call, like I don't know everybody, but so many people on this call are doing like amazing work, um so yeah.

W

I've also just wanted to say thank you for for the what, for the past I don't know a couple hours or whatever, as I've been listening, because I really appreciate everybody being on this call- and this has been super fun so far on hour, six or whatever, and I'm happy to I'm happy to keep listening and it's great to hear abuse leadership and um yeah, oh and then one other thing too. um Karen um replied with like a really beautiful analogy to my tweet about uh how decentralization has a um an abundance of leaders.

W

um I don't think it was kind of a tangent, but she said like it's kind of like the stars in the sky. Like uh uh I don't know, like you know, like each person, like kind of lights, their way, I don't know that's kind of cheesy, as I say it now, but it's a really good. I think it's a really inspiring idea and yeah. Thanks again, everybody.

W

W

Is that is doug doing that it? Wasn't it doug last week that kind of inserted the fleetwood mac in the in the middle?

W

Isn't it rick? What's his name, rick rick master, rick ashley we're getting rick rollins right now.

W

So who's playing it seriously. I think it was stefan eva just just a quick one. One last thing for me: um I, like the way you broke down like how uh the enf has to go, get funds from the black producers and everything. Maybe, uh um instead of like doing a rant, you could uh break down everything like the enf is doing kind of like that way. So we can get a better perspective on how uh you guys have to ask permission and you guys give them the keys and everything.

W

uh So that way the community could be because I wasn't aware of all that I I kind of knew, but I didn't know like all the intricate details like you broke it down, so um maybe on the next rant or the next breakdown or something you could do, that that'd be I'll, be cool too. That's a good suggestion. Thank you. uh Rise of king fresh, I'm gonna put that on the idea wall.

W

The other part, I think, a lot of people. Miss too, is not only does the enf have to ask for permission, there's nothing. Stopping anyone like the system is built. The money is going into the savings account, anyone can put up an msig and ask for money too, does not just dnf that has that opportunity.

W

Yeah people forget that people forget that anybody can do an m-sig and people forget that anybody can execute an exec as well.

W

Like literally any account can execute an msa as soon as it's reached the threshold that it that it needed to to reach like it's. Not any account can do that, doesn't matter and any account propose a name sig. It doesn't matter.

W

And thank you for that suggestion. That's a really great um and and also thank you for the suggestion earlier, uh I don't recall who gave it but of doing a like an infographic or some type of visual or um I'm just gonna, go back. Who said that uh a fudella mancha, uh the flow of you know, funding should really be drawn out yeah. The idea of like having a visual for that, I think, is a really great idea. Thank you.

W

Anybody else I mean, while around hours, six and a half and let us might as well keep going if there are other questions.

W

I mean you and I just end up yapping for two hours anyway, so I'm trying not to yeah when aaron and I get on calls like hey aaron. I I need to talk to you like five minutes. It's only gonna be like 10 minutes, something like that. Like really quick, three hours later yeah, I think we should go now all right, yeah, let's go.

W

Tried to be somewhat quiet on these balls, but.

W

Okay, here's a little story for some context: we've been running our own eos nodes behind the scenes and we've been having a lot of technical issues with them and we tried the um docker images from aaron's team and it worked like the first time and it saved us probably hundreds of man hours.

W

So whatever aaron's team is doing at grey mass, it's some black magic that we're not able to recreate without their help, so really appreciate that it's very valuable work that they're doing the beauty of docker is you can figure out those headaches and coat them all in so that way it just deals with it.

W

Yep now we just need to make easy easier for, like dead, simple for anyone to spin up their own eos nodes. I think so you mentioned that john. I think it was last week in either the api plus uh discord channel or the core plus, I don't recall, which one um did you so I know aaron you and matthew did back and forth afterwards uh after the api plus. uh I think that was before the api plus blue paper came out after it came out, did you read and what you were trying to convey?

W

Was it addressed or is it being? Is it brought up in the blue paper.

W

um Yeah, no, I mean, I think, on a broad level. I think everything that I have uh had expected was covered in the in the api paper. um It's just a matter of execution. I guess because there's um if it's not captured in the way that you wanted to capture it or if it's a specific program that you're thinking or something specific, that you're thinking there's again through the feedback process, it would be great if you participated in it. Obviously, there's incentivization for that to happen um or if it is addressed, then yeah.

W

Obviously, at some point like we talked about earlier, when matthew and aaron did the kind of the overview of what's in the blue paper, uh the idea behind having multiple api providers either through a like inferior type solution and or a more decentralized type solution in the future. Those will take time right. So in the meantime, part of what the the guys try to address as well is, if we need months, but something that was relatively quick and easy, would there be something?

W

And so I guess they tried to address that in a way by you know, one of the proposals is to support the current uh uh providers, but that could also be replicated for you know other uh right now.

W

I guess I'm focusing more on the api providers, but more like api plus or api history, like not just a standard, just api, but maybe there's you know something missing for the standard apis like just the the apis that aren't providing the full school of services anyways, all that to say, if you think, there's still a lack being being an api provider yourself, if there's still something missing that you didn't see in core plus or api plus, that would be great to to know, and especially if it's something that could be addressed relatively quickly, um then yeah we'd love to know that sure yeah I'll I'll definitely write something up.

W

My the big, the big question I have is: how do we get the eos community as excited about api nodes as they are about enchiladas? uh To be honest, they won't um and that's, okay. um I don't think that that's necessarily a bad thing.

W

I think that the overlap of enchiladas and apis are somewhat limited and what what I'm trying to do is grow the base of enchiladas and grow the base of apis, and I think that the blue papers are my current mechanism to grow that base of apis if you've been following along the chat and the apis, that just mean the stakeholders that would fall more on the developer type of thing um and and that there are other programs or or initiatives. I guess that will grow, that user base, like pomelo, like the bounty, keys, etc.

W

So I I do believe that that's a need that we need to continuously grow that base, um and so that's I don't think that we get this. Maybe there's overlap between getting sick excited for both, but you know it not. Everybody get excited for apis, but some people get really really excited for apis. It's it's more.

W

The yeah I mean they don't niche, they don't need they shouldn't be. You know they don't need to be, um but it's more of it's more of it's more of a concern about, like your time, is consumed by whatever the community is vocal about. So if the community is not vocal about the right things, then maybe your time is is maybe mismanaged or something.

W

But yes, and no like um what I mean by that is the two percent that the in that the enf has uh let's say, arguably access to, and now I say that people are going to say see you have access to inflation.

W

No, so just I'm making a very high level, the two percent that's going into saving that the enf could request, but that anybody else can request that, arguably a major part of it has been spent on the blue papers and the the the um uh the api type of stakeholder, and so I still envision that the majority of that two percent goes to developers and then what we're seeing with fractally is perhaps a two percent that that's being asked anyways.

W

That would go toward the non that would go towards the fractally type of stakeholder and at some point once that system would exist. Then yeah. The enf may still have a place as a function to facilitate that um either you know governed through frackly or it becomes a fractal whatever, but just think of the entity itself, an entity that could still come and allocate funds to the developer. Type of vein that I see.

W

I guess to kind of add to that the they are going to be different audiences, because fractally is not going to be at a point where it can support the level of effort. That's going to be required to do some of the things we actually have to do.

W

Well, the funding mechanism is also very, very, very different. Yeah yeah, I know johan on our team, has been deep in the game theory of fractally and asking a bunch of questions as well, um but he's trying to figure out a way if there is a way for an organization like grey mass to participate meaningfully in the system and like take full advantage of it um and there's still a lot of questions to be asked. But like we can't wait for that, we've been waiting for how many years.

W

Yeah, it's just different right, yeah, um not to say, though, that if the function worked or if the system were to be created and fast forward a period of time, we don't know what that could potentially look like and maybe absolutely it would be something that could come and meet the needs of of the developers as they stand right now, but yeah. I wouldn't stop the current system today, because we don't have the alternative right now and the system today is, in my opinion, filling a need.

W

That's been, that's been completely uh overlooked for a significant, sustained period of time, and so I I it would not be worthwhile, in my opinion, at this point, to stop that and having no alternative in the meantime, and we really don't have an alternative. In the meantime, there is no other system on the other end at this point today, yeah give fractally a couple years and it might be there.

W

I'm gonna take that, but yeah john to answer your question again, like that, the majority of that let's say two percent is, is going to these blue paper type of work.

W

With these developer type of work, I mean we, we output the quarterly report, so the next one will be um we'll be out the give or take the first week of april, so q1 2022 and I mean every pie chart- will be different quarter by quarter, uh but hopefully what you'll see over a sustained period of time as you, you get more of these quarterly reports.

W

The trend is that the majority of the funds are going to the developer type of crowd for sure.

W

A couple of things that I'd like to add um one.

W

I agree um that that frankly, is currently not capable of funding that, but I think that it can fund teams like bramas and teams like and developer teams very well and then also provide capacity like to help amplify the work of great developers and like build communities and community consensus around, like developers you're doing great work. So I think that can be very helpful um and I'm also happy to hear aaron that um that your teammate, I I think you pronounce the name johan- is looking into it.

W

So that's great um yeah and then the other thing too um john was saying about like how to get people to be more excited about uh apis. So maybe it's useful from uh for me to say here, like I've, been following the work with apis, and I understand like at a high level, why they're very useful and why they're necessary to make applications work well, but I was thinking, maybe it'd, be helpful to kind of do the same kind of 30-second elevator pitch.

W

That huge was requesting or challenging of me um if you'd like to just explain like at a high level for somebody who's not I'll. Do the five-second pitch no api, no blockchain right, but I mean we have apis right now and so like. What's the big difference between apis as of today where the blockchain works, although it's of course limited as compared to what it would be like in say, months or years from now after the api work is really more mature.

W

That's that's not a thing like the api needs to continuously run. It needs to continuously be maintained. It needs to continuously grow and needs to continuously feed um the information.

W

um It's not a like it's not a thing that you do and then you're done and and really it's as simple as if there's no api, how are you communicating with the blockchain? You have no method of talking to the blockchain, no api, no blockchain about improving the user experience. While doing that too, I mean how many people have experienced issues with like anchor being really laggy on your computer. A lot of that's actually due to the api. Sheer amount of api requests we have to make in order to think information for your account.

W

It could be optimized further on our side or it could be simplified for everyone on the api side. No, that's we could do it ourselves and we could make our thing better or we could focus on the core of the problem and make it better for everyone kind of at the core of so much of what gray mass does.

W

I guess what I'm trying to highlight here, aaron and dogman- is that, ultimately, this is a technical product. At the end of the day, the blockchain is the underlying tool, and that is a technical product. The justifying the technical component is much simpler, it's much easier because without that you actually don't have the product everything else on top of that is extra features, but without like whether you like it or not. Ultimately, there there there's code, whether you understand it or not, ultimately, there's code.

W

So if, when you want to make the code behave in a certain way and you or you want things to happen, ultimately there's code behind that like ultimately, this is a technical product, so the elevator pitch is is really really much easier. Where, where I push back with aaron a lot though- um and this is where then the perhaps you dog man would would, uh uh I guess, would would benefit uh or- or uh I guess hear me say that it's not a it's, not a free fraud, and I say this to aaron a lot.

W

There's no sense, though, in creating too much supply if there's no demand, so yes we're blockchain product and yes aaron.

W

You can ask me to you know if aaron came to me and said we need 20 million dollars worth of hardware and and, um like matthew, has said that in the past, not 20 million dollars but like if it's at some point there is such a thing as too much hardware or too much technical, then you've got way too much supply, not enough demand, so that balance is very tricky, but ultimately the baseline technical is a requirement.

W

Everything else is not necessarily a requirement, and what I'm trying to make it is that the community, in a way, also becomes a baseline requirement and the method by which currently there's perhaps an out for that is fractally.

W

Okay, that makes sense. Thank you for explaining. Thank you very much.

W

That's also kind of what's difficult when I hear um people suggest that, for example, current eden could select block producers, um which I'm not opposed to at all, and that's what I'd like to go to. I don't think we're there yet, but ultimately, I'd like to have that balance what's tricky at the end, though, is that that is a particular function that requires a particular skill set.

W

It's not tangible, it's very concrete and when I hear things like um blog producers, who don't have a bp.json aren't running infrastructure nah, those are two separate things, um and so, when I hear somebody say that it really makes me question whether or not that person can actually make an informed decision on who should be a block producer, because again it's black and white, like it's, you you either can block produce or you cannot block produce, there's and and it's there's metrics it's it's not subjective.

W

And that's the that's. The part where I'm still struggling with a little bit is how, if the intent is not to select people that have the capacity and the capability and the skill set to be able to make informed decisions on on who should let's say, run the infrastructure, then you're really just shooting. You know wild dart it like it is an actual function. There's it's not subjective.

W

That part, I'm still don't think that we've been able to um to address properly. In my opinion, so it's nice like the idea of it's a wishful thinking of leaving um that you know ex-blog producer because they talk on telegram. They probably could do a good job, but that's not like those are things aren't really correlated.

W

And if anything, a lot of the a lot of the um developers aren't necessarily the chatty type, so it's not a really great indicator as to whether or not they can produce blocks.

W

I'm not saying they can't just saying it's, the correlation. Isn't there necessarily some point? Governance is going to outgrow block production, but we just don't have the technology to make that a reality.

W

Taking a page out of uh telos's book, uh they kind of fixed this uh by uh requiring all the block producers to have like a certain amount of capability. Like eve, is saying, as far as uh running um uh infrastructure and everything else, um they they went about it pretty in a pretty good way. I think um so we could do something kind of like they did and that's why I don't know why we don't collab more with them um and like just.

W

So the um I'm not disagreeing. uh I agree that we can improve uh on that metrics. Wise eos does not have a block production problem.

W

Block production is extremely efficient, extremely performant and and always uh online and again the chain is attacked so frequently. That is incredibly robust. We've seen that so that's!

W

I would not argue on that front. um Other chains have different mechanisms of choosing block producers uh and yes, but they also have different realities.

W

So, for example, ultra just appoints block producers, they just straight up choose, and so that's a federated chain um wax kind of has a hybrid where it has the oig that um acts as a governance body that determines what is what are the traits or the variables that it would like the block producers to hit, and then you get scored and you get points and then uh based on that ranking, which is a mix of subjective and objective, but uh they're they try to make it as objective as possible.

W

Then wax itself controls the vast majority of tokens, and so it just places block producers in telos is is kind of one step down to that where, yes, they do still have the same ranking, I guess as eos, where tokens vote, but the distribution of tokens is vastly different than in eos, and so it's not apples for apples. So when telos launched they had a particular cap on accounts, and so they you know they had much much less large token holders.

W

However, I have not- uh and I I don't know so- I can't comment on the distribution of those tokens in in terms of voting, whether or not there's a high con concentration in a few individuals or not. I suspect that it's probably very similar to eos, um so I I don't know, but yes, the different communities, I guess value uh that differently, but they also started differently than eos like. I still strongly believe that problem in eos is not a block production problem.

W

It is a funding problem, and so we placed responsibility on the block producers because there was no other method of accessing funding, but in reality what we wanted was communication marketing apis. Whatever everything else, that's not block production, and we just didn't have a mechanism to be able to pay for those functions.

W

I really don't believe that it has to be in the block producers inevitably, and what we're seeing with the blue papers is that there is a different mechanism to be able to fill those functions that are completely separate from block production and fractionally would be let's, let's assume that, frankly, is a thing and and that it it it grows, and it becomes quite large and valuable, etc. That would also be another mechanism of funding towards very different type of functions.

W

Again has nothing to do with the block production side of things, the actual producing the blocks.

W

All right, thank you for that.

W

One of the big problems we had in eos is, we didn't, have a wps at the onset and it was part of what was sold and part of why people bought into this project. And ultimately, we tried to get one off the ground on multiple occasions, and I was part of those efforts every occasion and so I'm very intimately tied with with the process and the failures of not being able to stand one up and the last one.

W

Arguably, the enf is kind of a wps, um the one prior to that uh was killed by block one. It was killed by dan and by brandon I mean dan just made that I guess very, uh very public. I think it was last week or the week before in in his interview.

W

And that last wps uh was by far the highest consensus that the chain has reached on anything ever. I think it had 38 signatures um and it was a series of four m sigs m sig number one, I'm seeing number two passed and then the pbe was in place and they essentially asked for that to stop because block one would not be supporting it brendan and dan. Both publicly said that they didn't support it and they essentially dangled the carrot of well we'll.

W

Let you do it, but if you do, we might have to no longer support eos, and so it was still at the time where people believed that black one act was actually going to support eos. So they dangled that carrot. They dangled the votes they dangled funding and ultimately the decision was made to to stop uh the vwps um and that left eos starving for another two years after that decision.

W

Again, it was a funding problem, not a block production problem, hey eve, you, you might not want to speculate on this, but I mean do you feel like that was a good faith effort on their part to protect their chain or was there some ulterior motive? There.

W

That's a good question: um it is inevitably um yeah I'd rather not answer uh because, because of the litigation ongoing litigation with block one, I would I would rather not answer, but what I can say is from a non-enf point of view. So, from my point of view, was very intimate with this. I'm the one who uh championed it eos nation, was the one that that built it uh we're the ones who reached consensus on on leading this uh down in rio, originally at the onset for the architecture and the design and the actual development.

W

um And then the ultimate you know getting the signatures on sane and stuff and negotiating et cetera, et cetera.

W

My experience with that was very much that we got catfished and um whether or not it was malicious. I I don't know but very much. The the alternative was to take on block one and essentially go against the wishes of block one while block one was making threats um not just to, for example, me um and eos nation and and the people that have been working on the wps but to the larger community and those are all public.

W

You know public tweets and um uh public messaging for for in large part, but then there's also, as you can imagine, the back end part the private messaging. It was very much if you guys do this. You know we'll let you because eos is decentralized, but if you do this, like we've got a bunch of investors and we've got a bunch of capital that we're going to deploy and you're not going to get it, and it's very much a threat very, very much a threat.

W

Yeah I mean I I can just say from an out as an outside observer. You know, I'm not part of those. You know those talks directly with b1 I've seen many opportunities where they could step in and help and they don't and they and opportunities where they do step in and act like they're trying to help and don't and um just like as a as an example when we were going through the idose cpu crunch, and we had very little support from block one behind that I mean really it would.

W

It would have been trivial for them to set up a cpu cosigning service using their available cpu and then work with scatter to provide that as a cpu and blocks. You know, for example, so there's just uh I mean there. One would have been them knowing that scatter even existed, which they admitted that they didn't, which is such a huge failure, but the other thing is that they said that they couldn't do it because it would be seen as them exerting control over the chain or having control over the chain.

W

Well, isn't that a great irony that they're, oh, the reality was they did have control over the chain because they were dangling that carrot right. So, yes, it is quite yes very much so so you see the double standard there. Of course yeah. Yes, very much! So so, if you have any um experience or any uh details like that or any communications that you can share, please send to b1 litigation at the osn.foundation.

W

The litigation goes well beyond the ico and I can't comment further, but it's a repeating pattern um that has been experienced by a lot of community members. Regardless of whether or not you held tokens you chose to build on this chain. You chose to deploy resources on this chain. Your time, your business, you chose to make decisions based on commitments and promises, and you were catfished and at some point, um yeah I'll, just stop there. So if there's anything you would like to provide, please uh send that information.

W

I mean I actually think they would be in a better position legally if they completely ghosted us the day. The chain launched.

W

At pesky hindsight yep, uh but we're now in a position where um the chain has decided to uh move on uh regardless of their um yeah. I guess regardless of of their involvement or not right, and it took four years unfortunately to for us to get to that point, um but we're here and now we we do have the starting of means or the starting of a system to give us the means to uh take the future in our own hands and hopefully uh address.

W

You know the the time that we lost and turn the ship around um and, as I said earlier, the last six months or so in terms of development in terms of community sentiment as a whole. Yes, there's still there's still issues but has, uh from my point of view, uh significantly changed and on a positive note, it's not like nothing happened over those years, no yeah, of course, yeah. It's it's not a yeah, it's not a alder or nothing either for sure.

W

All right we're getting on was it like seven hours now and 10 minutes, 12 minutes yeah, it's getting close.

W

I'm wondering even at this point, if the people that are still here are actually here or if they just close discord, and it's just the three of us and nobody else is actually really here. They just didn't close discord.

W

Let's see some ones in the chat, if you're still here, all right, no, okay, we're not alone all right. There's other people we're all right. All right: okay, okay, okay, six.

W

I only came back to hear the stunning ending the conclusion.

W

Did you hear it not yet.

W

I just want to say I have been here the whole time and it has made my work day go by much quicker than usual, or at least.

W

Good to hear all right, steph with the tunes there, we go: hey pablo americano.

W

uh When I hear that song, it's too bad hernan isn't here um when I hear that song, it makes me think of her noun, because when was it, we had a hackathon or we had an event and hernan had that music playing in the background and he was dancing for a while. I think it was him and ami I would like two years ago, or so.

W

I'm guessing nobody else remembers that, but I remember that oh, was it voice? Kickoff? Yes, eli? Yes, yes, see, I'm not alone. Somebody remembers that's exactly what it was.

W

All right, well, I think I'm going to wrap it up after all, all right. Well, thank you very much everybody for participating. um Thank you very much for being here. uh This is what it's all about yeah and thank you eve for uh uh devoting your time. I know you and, uh and a bunch of other people are very busy so um getting down and talking with the uh the community is much appreciated.

W

Well, thank you. Yeah super appreciate it. Thank you. So much.

W

And the same goes to all of you if, if, if we join these fireside chats and there was like five people, it definitely wouldn't be as interesting as as when I look at the numbers and there's 50 people or so and seven hours in there's still 27 people. um You guys definitely make this uh yeah, you guys, you guys, it's all about you guys. Thank you.

W

Man, it's called yeah, it's been super fun and super interesting, so yeah thanks everybody thanks steve for for all the great conversation thanks, everybody, it's uh yeah, it's awesome. I think this is like a legendary seven-hour chat.

W

Yeah, it's pretty crazy. I think we need to keep that one for that's got to be one of the questions uh steph or jana for the friday game. Definitely.

W

uh And, and actually on that note on that note, people um friday at 3 p.m, eastern there's always a kahoot thing. I've been joining for the last three weeks and I'm the reigning champion. I believe for two weeks in a row now my first week was stolen. um It is for me to lose.

W

The pressure is tremendous on me because if I lose or if I do poorly, then it I mean yeah, it looks pretty bad, so I invite you all to join it's it's pretty cool, it lasts about 10, 15 minutes or so uh it would be fun if more people participated. So that's an invitation for friday at 3 p.m. Eastern.

W

All right take care everybody all right. Good night golios go.