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A
A
So
what
I
like
to
think
of
myself
as
a
sustainability
and
esg
leader,
I'm
actually
with
the
hbar
foundation,
I
I
lead
their
policy
efforts
and
spend
lots
of
time
on
the
sustainable
impact
fund
and
so
we're
here
today
to
talk
about
esg
and
whether
we
can
whether
crypto
can
bridge
the
gap
know
that's
a
very
interesting
framing.
I
think
the
first
question
is
so.
What
do
we
mean
by
esg
esg?
A
Is
this
kitchen
sink
composite
term?
You
know,
I
think
it
originated
in
the
sort
of
financial
services
sector,
so
they
could
have
a
way
of
directing
investment
funds.
Corporations
typically
use
the
the
csr
terminology
which
sort
of
related
to
their
their
philanthropic
efforts.
You
know
in
this
the
sustainability
context
here
in
this
conference
we
tend
to
think
of
asg
as
sort
of
synonymous
with
with
e
the
environmental
component,
but
there
are
two
others:
social
and
governance.
A
An
author
important
my
background.
I'm
a
environmental
lawyer
by
training,
I
was
in
the
obama
and
obama
white
house
and
an
epa,
and
I
also
worked
with
with
coinbase
on
sustainability
and
esg
issues.
I
think
before
we
before
we
start
I'll.
Have
my
colleagues
here
on
the
panel
introduce
themselves
axel.
B
Thank
you
very
much,
I'm
axel
from
popcorn
yeah.
I
I
guess
I'd
like
to
start
by
by
saying
my
my
attitude
towards
this.
I
learned
as
a
young
child
that
you
can
affect
society
in
three
different
ways.
Basically,
you
can
legislate,
you
can
communicate
or
you
can
build
it
in,
and
a
seat
belt
is
a
good
analogy
for
this.
You
can
legislate
that
you
need
a
seat
to
build
the
in
in
and
so
so
on.
Incentivize
you
to
to
put
the
seat
belt
on.
B
You
can
either
take
on
one
of
these
three
roles
and
when
it
comes
to
solving
real
world
problems,
I'm
a
builder
you
guys
can
talk
more
about
the
legislative
part
of
all.
Of
this
esg,
for
me,
is
is
has
become
a
little
bit
distanced
from
from
solving
real
world
problems.
In
my
opinion,
as
a
builder
I'm
just
seeing
sri
lanka
has
an
esg
score
of
98
and
then
collapsing.
So
what's
going
on
there
guys,
but
I,
as
a
builder
we
we
are.
B
We
are
using
webg
technology
in
popcorn,
for
instance,
and
in
doing
ways
with
smart
contracts
that
we
couldn't
do
before
so,
for
instance,
with
popcorn
we
are,
we
are
going
back
to
first
principles
and
realizing
that
there's
different
stakeholders
in
an
economy,
you
have
liquidity
providers
who
seek
yield.
They
want
as
high
yield
as
possible
for
as
low
risk
as
possible
right.
B
So
you
also
have
organizations
were
trying
to
solve
real
world
problems
in
in
the
forms
of
ngos
and
charities,
and
looking
at
these,
they
could
be
a
lot
more
efficient.
35
cent
on
each
dollar
goes
to
fund
the
next
dollar.
So
there's
a
35
percent
efficiency
potential
there
and
then
you
have
people
like
like,
like
you
and
me,
who
want
to
do
well
in
life,
but
also
do
good.
B
So
if
you
align
these
incentives,
you
get
popcorn,
which
is
a
system
where
we
create
value
to
liquidity
providers
by
offering
competitive
device
strategies,
so
we're
giving
them
yield
right
and
then
for
providing
that
value.
We
generate
fee
a
fee
as
any
as
any
wealth
manager
and
those
fees
then
get
distributed
to
these
charities
chosen
by
our
dao.
So
we're
decentralizing
also
the
distribution
of
these
fees
to
this
organization,
so
yeah
esg
and
when
it
comes
to
building
and
solving
real
world
problems.
B
I
think,
from
from
my
point
of
view,
we
can
we
can
build
stuff
and-
and
you
guys
need
to
just
not
make
the
frameworks
you
need
to
help
us
not
make
the
legal
frameworks
worse.
So
we
can,
I
think,
we're
gonna
with
innovation
solve
a
lot
of
this
stuff
and
and
not
by
by
strange
policies.
Basically,
I'm
I'm
very
curious
to
hear
you
you're,
because
I
know
you're
you're
much
more
involved
in
the
legislation
part
than
than
I
am.
B
C
Yeah,
I
completely
agree
with
that,
which
is
why
I
spend
so
much
time
bringing
technologists
and
especially
blockchain
entrepreneurs
to
legislators
to
make
sure
that
all
of
the
laws
are
actually
co-written
with
the
people
who
are
going
to
be
regulated
by
those
laws
but
hi
everyone.
My
name
is
brittany
kaiser.
I
am
the
chair
of
the
board
of
griffin,
digital
mining.
C
I
lead
our
esg
committee,
I'm
also
the
chair
of
the
esg
committee
and
so
being
able
to
design
those
strategies
and
be
able
to
prove
that
the
coins
that
we're
mining
are
actually
coming
from
green
energy
sources.
I've
been
working
over
the
past
year
with
the
incredible
team
at
energy
web
who,
I
think,
a
lot
of
you
know
really
well
who
founded
the
who,
founded
quite
a
few
different
things,
but
most
recently,
you've,
probably
seen
in
the
news
the
sustainable
bitcoin
standard.
C
So
what
we've
been
looking
at
are
all
of
the
types
of
tools
that
we
can
use
to
have
on-chain
auditing
of
data,
where
you
can
verify
exactly
where
your
energy
is
coming
from
and
then
know
that
the
asics
that
you
have
plugged
in
to
renewable
energy
data
centers
or
nuclear
energy
data
centers
are,
in
the
end,
producing
or
at
least
contributing
to
greener
assets
and
making
bitcoin
a
greener
asset
class
in
the
eyes
of
everyone
around
the
world.
I
did
start
my
career
as
an
environmental
activist
working
at
environment,
america
and
u.s
public
interest.
D
D
I
think
we
can
all
agree
to
that
and
I,
from
my
perspective,
it's
there
are
probably
two
views
you
can
take,
and
I
think
that
especially
the
public's
perception
is
very
narrow
in
the
sense
that
it's
just
focusing
on
the
essentially
energy
consumption
of
the
protocol
itself,
and
within
this
narrow
view,
it
primarily
focuses
on
bitcoin.
Essentially,
I
think
the
industry
in
the
meantime
has
you
know,
made
quite
some
progress
in
that
space.
D
We
we've
seen
a
bunch
of
proof
of
stake
chains,
for
example
that
have
orders
of
magnitude,
lower
energy
consumptions,
and
we
have,
for
example,
blockchains
like
cello
that
included
carbon
offsets
on
the
protocol
level.
Essentially,
on
top
of
that,
I
think
the
more
interesting
view
to
be
honest
is-
and
I
think
this
goes
back
to
what
you
said
about
popcorn-
is
applications
that
are
built
on
blockchain.
That
can
actually
do
something
good,
and
here
I
think
we
are
just
you
know.
D
D
The
big
question
was
initially
what
are
green
assets
on
chain
and
we
couldn't
find
any
and
the
only
assets
that
we
found
essentially
were
calm
credits,
which
is
a
great
starting
point,
but
just
imagine
the
potential
if
you
have
like
compliant-
and
you
know
transparent
assets
on
chain
that
you
can
then
integrate
into
d5
protocols
or
more.
You
know,
stablecoin
protocols
and
all
the
innovation
that
is
currently
emerging.
A
A
So
I
think
the
question.
The
first
question
I
think,
should
start
with
bitcoin
is
whether
whether
the
criticisms
were
ever
justified,
and
even
if
they
were
brittany.
Maybe
you
can
tell
us
a
little
bit
about
what
what
the
sort
of
the
bitcoin
space
is
is
doing
to
respond
to
those
high
energy
consumption
criticisms
and
and
more
than
that,
the
way
in
which
bitcoin
miners
they're
able
to
help
drive
the
energy
transition.
C
Absolutely
so,
first
of
all,
let
me
just
say
that,
regardless
of
whether
or
not
the
incredibly
fast
organization
self-organization
within
the
industry
to
decarbonized
was
forced
by
terribly
misinformed
journalists
around
the
world
and
legislators
that
decided
to
start
speaking
out
against
our
industry,
because
they
don't
understand
how
this
technology
works
and
why
it's
important.
Regardless
of
that,
I
think
it's
incredible
what
this
industry
has
done
in
order
to
not
only
prove
how
green
it
already
was,
but
to
go
even
further
than
that
in
terms
of
making
a
large
positive
impact
in
the
world.
C
C
That
came
together
specifically
to
publish
data
to
get
as
much
data
as
possible
to
put
out
real
reports
so
that
journalists
could
actually
have
real
information
so
that
regulators
could
have
up-to-date
information
about
how
much
green
energy
was
actually
going
into
bitcoin
mining
production.
But
then
also
most
big
mining
companies
started
to
move
from
fossil
fuel
based
energy
sources
or
even
mixed
grids
to
investing
in
large-scale
renewable
developments
and
nuclear
developments.
That
is
absolutely
huge.
I
I
think
it's
been
amazing
to
watch,
and
so
you
know
are
some
of
the
criticisms
legitimate.
C
I
suppose,
if
we
also
want
to
look
at
every
other
industry
that
uses
data
centers,
which
is
every
industry,
because
I
don't
think,
there's
a
single
industry
that
doesn't
use
computers
and
store
data
somewhere.
So
if
we
are
going
to
criticize
our
industry
and
where
the
data
centers
are,
and
what
energy
they're
being
fueled
by
okay.
C
Well,
let's
hold
everyone
to
the
same
standards
and
from
my
experience
I
really
do
believe
that
it
is
essential
to
have
proper
regulation
around
this
because
hoping
that
people
that
work
at
for-profit
companies
are
all
of
a
sudden
going
to
optimize
for
morals
and
ethics
as
opposed
to
profit
is
just
you
know,
really
really
never
going
to
happen.
So
we
do
have
to
have
those
incentive
structures
within
law,
but
it's
possible
to
not
be
completely
draconian,
like
the
state
of
new
york.
C
A
C
I
was
surprised
that
it
went
through
a
lot
of
people
asked
if
I
had
anything
to
do
with
it.
I
did
not.
Actually,
in
fact,
I
did
write
a
letter
saying
that
that
type
of
draconian
legislation
is
not
good
for
the
industry.
Instead,
we
should
incentivize
the
use
of
renewables
so
that
there's
a
positive
incentive
there.
C
Of
course,
there
are
renewable
energy
incentives
for
most
industries,
so
if
we
could
make
one's
mining
specific,
which
we're
looking
at
in
the
state
of
wyoming
at
the
moment
or
I've
been
working
on
legislation
for
four
and
a
half
years,
if
we
can
actually
get
renewable
energy
mining
incentives
or
nuclear
energy
mining
incentives
through,
then
that's
a
much
better
model
in
my
personal
opinion,
give
people
something
positive
to
go
for
as
opposed
to
having
people
shut
down
their
businesses.
That
doesn't
make
any
sense.
B
So
so
interesting
thoughts
here.
What
I'm
thinking
of
the
I
used
to
work
in
trout
fire
a
long
time
ago,
and
one
thing
I
really
appreciate
with
working
within
web
3-
is
the
the
shared
fundamental
beliefs
of
open
source,
and
this
really
has
a
huge
effect,
because
it
allows
us
to
really
integrate
with
with
many
other
protocols.
B
Many
of
them
are
are
here
we're
integrating,
with
with
the
carbon
offsets
program,
to
make
our
our
chain
carbon,
zero
and
and
distributing
fees
to
reforestation
projects
and
so
on
and
so
forth.
So
I'm,
like
my
point,
is
the
the
the
innovation
is
there.
We've
been
in
this
whole
bitcoin
discussion,
that's
been
going
on
and
the
negative
media
that's
been
put
on
it.
It's
a
bit
over
exaggerated,
because
the
level
of
innovation
we
have
in
our
field
we're
just
constantly
solving
all
the
different
problems.
B
It's
the
speed
that
we
can
do.
This
has
has
never
been
seen
before.
So
I'm
not
worried
about
our
finding
these
different
technical
solutions.
We
can
do
it
in
a
much
faster
way
than
we
ever
have
before,
but
my
my
question
is
the
the
other
two
parts
of
of
the
change
makers:
here's
the
legislation,
parts
and
the
storytelling
part
communication.
B
C
It's
a
problem
if
they
are
uninformed
and
it's
the
same
with
legislators,
which
is
why
I
think
it's
so
important
that
we
as
an
industry
are
spending
as
much
time
as
possible,
educating
the
journalists
and
educating
the
legislators
and
regulators.
We
have
to
explain
to
them
how
this
technology
works.
Why
it's
important
to
us
how
it
positively
affects
people
in
whatever
jurisdiction,
it
will
happen.
We
happen
to
be
talking
about
and
that's
the
only
way
that
we
change
minds.
C
It's
just
the
lack
of
education
that
causes
this
type
of
negative
feedback,
both
in
the
news
and
in
congress
or
in
parliaments
around
the
world,
and
so
the
just
with
the
engagement
from
the
industry,
where
we
actually
take
the
time
go
to
places
in
person.
Sit
down
with
these
people
answer
all
of
their
questions.
Explain
why
we're
so
so
passionate
about
this
and
how
positively
it
has
affected
the
lives
of
people
around
the
world
with
different
types
of
projects
that
they
can
understand.
C
D
I
fully
agree
and,
for
example,
we
had
we
had
a
side
conference
going
over
over
this
week
and
we
had
a
couple
of
sessions
around
like
regenerative
finance
refi
more
broadly,
and
one
learning
of
one
of
the
sessions
is
essentially
that
you
know
we
are
talking
to
the
wrong
people.
I
mean
everyone
in
those
sessions
was
crypto
native
and
but
the
second
you're
talking
you
know
about
a
refi
and
this
regenerative
finance
sphere.
D
That
is
now
opening
up
you're
kind
of
leaving
the
world
of
web
3
native
folks
and
you're
necessarily
like
connecting
with
the
real
world,
and
so
how
come
that
you
go
to
a
crypto
conference
that
is
like
about
real
world
impact.
There
are
no
real
world
people
there
right.
I
would
be
actually
curious,
like
how
many
of
you
are
somehow
working
in
in
crypto
and
how
many
are
like
non-crypto
can
maybe
like
a
quick
raise
of
hands
who's
working
in
crypto,
non-crypto.
A
You
know
one
interesting
angle
is
to
to
think
about
it
from
the
perspective
of
not
of
becoming
pro-regulatory
as
an
industry.
You
know,
there's
this.
I
think
perception
among
sort
of
legislative
staffs
in
the
u.s,
for
example,
that
you
know
an
industry
that
has
you
know
this
at
least
in
their
minds.
You
know
sort
of
horrible
environmental
footprint.
A
They
should
you
know
and
we
will
be
running
from
regulatory
constraints,
but
the
reality
is-
and
I
think,
as
we've
seen
with
the
industry
response
to
the
sec's
rule-making
proposal,
proposal
on
on
climate
impacts,
which
is
disclosure-oriented,
the
bitcoin
mining
community
has
been,
I
think,
it's
probably
fair,
to
say
very
favorable,
in
contrast
to
many
legacy
industries
with
hard
to
abate
emissions,
very
carbon
intensive
hard
to
obey
emissions
profiles.
You
know
I've
been
sort
of
crying
bloody
murdered
that
the
disclosure
would
be
too
too
expensive.
A
It
would
be
action
forcing,
but
in
the
in
the
bitcoin
community
for
example.
My
understanding
is
that
you
know
the
us-based
mines
are
already
over
50
renewable
powered,
and
you
know
in
general.
I
think
the
the
perception
is
well
to
bring
on
the
disclosure
regime
will
will
come
out.
Looking
good,
you
think.
That's
fair.
C
Absolutely
and
that's
what's
been
so
exciting
over
the
past,
you
know
year
or
so,
since
the
release
of
the
crypto
climate
accord
and
the
organization
of
the
bitcoin
mining,
council
and
tons
of
other
side
projects
that
are
really
driving
forward.
The
ability
for
us
to
prove
how
green
the
industry
actually
already
is
and
how
much
more
work
is
being
done
to
go
further
than
that.
C
I
think
we'll
be
able
to
prove
that
the
bitcoin
mining
industry
is
actually
a
lot
greener
than
tons
of
other
industries
that
might
potentially
end
up
having
bigger
issues
when
regulatory
regulatory
draconian
laws
come
in
right
when
we
start
to
actually
have
to
ratify
a
lot
of
the
climate
change
agreements
that
we're
making
internationally
and
force
local
industries,
not
just
bitcoin
mining
to
become
green.
I
don't
think
the
bitcoin
mining
industry
is
going
to
be
the
one
that
is
actually
having
trouble
achieving
any
of
these
goals.
C
I
think
we're
already
there
and
we're
doing
the
best
we
can
to
to
go
further,
but
again
we're
not
seeing
draconian
laws
in
too
many
other
places.
We
do
have
so
many
people
showing
up
in
person
in
dc
at
the
sec
in
congress
and
state
congress.
Having
these
conversations,
I
I
haven't
seen
really
a
more
passionate
group
of
people
than
bitcoin
maximalists
when,
when
you
get
them
in
front
of
congressmen,
really
honestly
it's
a
it's
incredible.
C
But
this
is
the
only
way
that
it
happens
is
that
you
have
to
show
up
like
in
the
state
of
wyoming.
The
reason
why
we
got
all
of
those
laws
through
we've
passed
what
25
laws
now
in
the
state
of
wyoming
that
are
positive
for
blockchain
technology,
because
we
had
hundreds
of
people
flying
in
from
all
over
the
world.
C
As
far
as
hong
kong,
singapore,
switzerland
to
cheyenne
wyoming
and
showing
up
and
meeting
with
the
banking
commissioner
and
walking
into
congress
and
sitting
there
and
we
met
with
every
single
person
in
the
house,
we
met
with
every
single
member
of
the
senate.
Everyone
in
the
banking
commission,
the
banking
association,
the
governor's
office,
and
we
sat
there
for
weeks
four
months
on
end
flying
people
in
from
all
over
the
world.
C
In
order
to
do
this,
and
because
we
sat
there-
and
we
said
this
is
so
important
to
us-
that
I'm
willing
to
not
only
come
here
from
hong
kong-
this
is
charles
hoskinson.
Of
course
I
will
move
cardano
and
iohk
to
the
state
of
wyoming
and
then
jesse,
the
ceo
of
kraken
showed
up,
and
he
said
I
will
also
move
kraken
to
the
state
of
wyoming.
If
you
pass
these
good
laws,
and
so
everyone
voted
yes
and
it's
the
first
legislative
initiative
in
the
united
states
to
ever
have
basically
every
law
passed
unanimously.
C
That
has
never
happened
for
any
other
topic
in
all
of
legislative
history.
So
if
we
show
up,
we
will
be
able
to
do
this
and
we
won't
have
regulatory
hurdles
that
we're
trying
to
conform
to
we're
actually
going
to
have
laws
that
we've
helped
write
that
we
think
make
sense
and
we're
happy
to
conform
to
so.
B
C
C
Some
people
might
never
be
able
to
be
convinced,
but
honestly,
a
lot
of
legislators.
It's
just
a
lack
of
understanding
of
what
this
actually
is,
so
they'd
rather
push
it
away
than
spend
the
time
to
understand
it.
But
if
you
force
them
to
take
the
time
because
you
show
up
to
their
office-
and
you
demand
a
meeting
then
eventually
they
they
will
get
it
like.
C
C
Call
your
legislator
or
write
to
them,
so
you
can
easily
look
up.
Who
represents
you
in
whatever
country
you're
in
and
tell
them
who
you
are,
what
company
you
work
for
and
why
you
think
these
topics
are
important
and
why
they
should
you
know,
address
them
or
vote
a
certain
way
or
not
support
a
certain
bill.
C
That's
the
easiest
thing
to
do,
and
it
really
matters
because
most
legislative
districts
have
if
they
have
a
certain
number
of
phone
calls
or
a
certain
number
of
letters
that
they've
received
from
their
constituents.
It
means
they
actually
have
to
do
something
about
it,
so
that
that's
the
easiest
thing
to
do.
You
know.
A
A
You
know
in
the
us,
our
our
legislature
is
skewed
to
the
older
side
and
you
know
they're
often
entirely
dependent
upon
sort
of
young,
smart
legislative
directors
who
are
willing
to
put
in
the
time-
and
you
know
it's-
it's
really
interesting-
the
you
know
crypt
the
crypto
has
grown
so
amazingly
quickly.
You
know,
and
and
the
the
interest
level
has
skyrocketed.
A
Even
you
know,
notwithstanding
the
recent
troubles
in
the
in
the
industry,
but
so
has
esg,
and
I
read
recently
that
in
2021,
something
like
25
000
media
stories
focused
on
esg
and
that
beat
crypto
by
a
factor
of
two,
and
so
I
mean
part
of
the
challenge
is
that
you
know
we
have.
You
know
a
a
regulatory
and
legislative
community
that
believes
that
the
esg
question
is
something
that
must
be
addressed
and
they
understand
crypto
much
less
well.
B
But
I
I
think,
like
everyone
can
agree
with,
like
the
thought
behind
the
history
more
or
less,
it
makes
sense
to
to
to
do
it,
but
then
it's
all
about
how
it's
been
implemented
and
how
these
frameworks
are
being
constructed.
So
it's
not
done
in
a
way
where
a
few
centralized
decision
makers
can
can
influence
with
different
parameters
in
shady
ways
to
to
it
needs
to
be
open,
and-
and
what
do
you
guys
think
can
can
can?
B
C
Well,
well,
I
think
that
the
other
side
of
that
coin
is
saying:
okay.
Well,
you
know,
if
proof
of
work
is
obviously
going
to
be
under
much
harder
scrutiny
just
because
of
the
amount
of
energy
that
it
obviously
takes,
but
because
companies
that
are
using
proof-of-work
technologies
are
spending
so
much
money
on
energy.
Proof-Of-Work
mining
actually
has
the
ability
to
fund
large-scale,
renewable
energy
developments
and
large-scale
nuclear
developments,
where
other
other
consensus
mechanisms
do
not.
D
C
But
what
what
I've
been
concentrating
on
working
on,
especially
with
with
energy
web,
is
being
able
to
find
the
technical
solutions
where,
at
the
point
of
the
data
center
and
the
local
energy
authority,
that
we
can
actually
with
third-party
verification
and
auditing,
trace
the
exact
energy
mix
of
what
you
are
using
now.
Obviously,
that's
a
lot
easier
if
you're
using
off-grid
energy
sources.
C
And
so
it's
really
important
for
us
to
be
investing
in
more
off-grid
so
that
this
data
is
more
solid,
but
where
that's
not
possible,
being
able
to
actually
prove
what
that
energy
mix
is
and
being
able
to
track
and
trace
that
and
prove
that
transparently
and
publicly
in
public
filings,
I
think
is
really
where,
where
we
need
to
go,
and
so
just
these
reports
that
claim
a
certain
energy
mix
without
actually
having
that
open
source
verified
on
the
on-chain
verification
of
the
local
energy
source.
You
know
we're
not
fully
there.
C
A
And
you
know,
I
think
it's
worth
noting
that
that
challenge
is
one
that
affects
any
company
interested
in.
You
know
accurately
reporting
their
their
carbon
intensity
of
their
of
their
energy
mix
and
the
only
way
around
it
is
is
you
know,
companies
like
google
that
are
co-locating.
You
know
new
data
centers
with
renewable
gen's
that
they
finance
and
that's
exactly
what
the
bitcoin
miners
are
doing
right.
A
The
the
off-grid
stranded,
renewable
energy
capacity
is
something
that
the
capex
for
that
didn't
exist
before
bitcoin
mines
in
in
many
places
in
this
country,
and
that
is
you
know,
that's
an
important
part
of
the
narrative.
I
think
the
challenge
is
you
know
that
it
seems
very
self-serving
for
bitcoin
miners
to
make
that
argument,
and
no
one
believes
you
know
that
it
could
possibly
be
true-
and
you
know
the
energy
market
in
this
country
is
immensely
complex.
It's
it's
you
they
can.
C
I
mean
if
it
wasn't
bitcoin
miners
going
into
some
of
these
places.
It
would
probably
be
google
or
apple
or
amazon
etc.
Like
you
know,
the
the
renewable
energy
resources
and
facilities
that
are
currently
under
construction
in
the
us
are
are
not
enough.
We,
we
need
to
actually
be
doing
a
lot
more
again.
C
Why
I'm
such
a
big
fan
of
you
know
nuclear
facilities
and
developing
more
of
those,
because
nuclear
is
the
only
way
that
we're
actually
going
to
be
able
to
really
green
grids,
not
just
in
the
united
states,
but
I
say
this
in
europe
very
loudly,
especially
to
germany,
and
you
know
I.
I
also
advise
the
government
of
ukraine,
so
I
really
spend
a
lot
of
time
asking
people
to
turn
nuclear
back
on
and
develop
more
nuclear.
It's
not
just
for
bitcoin.
It's
you
know
for
for
human
rights
of
people
everywhere.
At
this
moment,.
A
B
Sure
I
mean
we.
We
fundamentally
believe
that
we
we
can.
We
have
the
opportunity
now
to
really
build
in
stuff
into
the
smart
contracts
that
are
regenerative
so
like,
if
you
think
about
these
these,
that
there
are
very
good
organization
out
there
in
the
world
who
are
trying
to
fix
local
and
global
problems,
and
these
need
funding.
B
So
why
don't
we
use
the
the
will
of
the
people
and
the
existing
incentives
from
from
liquidity
providers
or
or
any
institution
or
or
individual
who
need
yield,
want,
yield
and
build
those
factors
in
so
we
we
couldn't
really
align
these
incentives
before
and
that's
why
this
technology
is
so
exciting
and-
and
this
is
like
what
we're
doing
is
is
like
it's.
It's
super
simple
we're
just
like
directing
a
portion
of
our
fees
to
these
organizations
and
then
our
community
members,
so
we're
decentralizing,
the
the
distribution
of
these
funds
normally
take.
B
You
can
take
any
company,
you
have
like
salesforce
they're,
making
a
few
percent
profit
and
if
they
have
a
a
good
intention,
they
will
take
one
percent
of
that
and
donate
to
some
charity.
That's
chosen
by
some
centralized
leader
on
top.
It's
not
really
making
any
change
we
need
to.
We
need
to
build
in
these
these
funding
mechanisms
in
a
very
fundamental
level,
and
we
can
do
this
in
in
in
a
protocol
level.
So
we're
super
excited
about
that.
B
I
mean
it's,
it's
quite
incredible,
really
and
and
we're
just
starting.
I
mean
it's,
it's
we're
so
early,
we're
like
we're
super
super
early
and
and
and
then
we
can,
we
can
integrate
like
carbon
neutrality
and
all
of
this
stuff.
It's
it's
also
super
easy.
You
can
just
direct
a
portion
of
the
feast
and
and
showing
that
that
you
are
really
carbon
neutral.
If,
if
that's
something
you
want
to
show,
but
but
not
only
that
it
so
what's
interesting,
is
there's.
B
There's
there's
two
reasons
mainly
that
I
think
of
why
why
we
didn't
donate
more
money
in
our
life
to
organizations
that
need
money
that
need
funding
and
it's
it's
transparency
in
accessibility.
So
we
need
to
make
systems
where
we
make
permissionless
systems
that
are
accessible
to
to
everyone.
So
that's
number
one,
and-
and
we
need
to
do
so
in
a
way
that
you
feel
if
you
give
something
that
you
know
where
the
money
ended
up
with
right.
So
there's
all
different
ways.
It's
just
open
up
a
new
way
of
thinking.
B
So,
if
you're
an
ocean
cleanup,
for
instance,
instead
of
giving
money
to
them,
you
can
give
to
a
project
to
a
lake
or
a
river,
whatever
they're
trying
to
clean
up
and
then
have
them
split
up
that
project
in
different
milestones
and
then
once
they
reach
certain
targets,
and
they
can
verify
that,
then
they
will
receive
the
actual
funding.
I.
C
E
B
Yeah,
because
you
want
to
know
you,
you
give
what
you
want
to
know,
what
is
the
impact
and
and
then
we
can
start
using.
You
know
every
human
being
has
a
fundamental
need
to
to
do
well
for
themselves
right,
but
also
to
do
good.
So
if
we
can
provide
people
with
an
opportunity
to
do
good,
I
think
many
people
will
do
it.
B
So
what's
interesting,
just
one
last
point:
what
we're
doing
in
popcorn
is
like
we're,
not
sacrificing
your
yield
as
an
lp
like
every
time
you
deposit
you,
withdraw
you,
you
stake
you,
you
farm,
there's,
there's
transaction
happening
and
we
charge
transactions
fees
for
that
that
that
are
being
generated
to
these
organizations
chosen
by
the
dao.
But
there's,
oh
now
I
lost
my
point
well.
C
C
So
I
think
this
would
really
help
a
lot
of
the
projects
that
that
you're
working
with
to
actually
be
able
to
have
more
long-term
donors
and
therefore
more
sustainable
sources
of
funding,
because
they
can
show
that
to
to
the
people
that
they
would
expect
to
get
funding
from.
How
do
you
actually
choose
the
projects
that
you're
working
with.
B
So
that
that's
we
are
we
we're
integrating
with
projects
like
git
coin,
who
already
have
verified
a
project?
So
so
we
love
git
coin
and
then
we
have
our
own.
The
the
idea
is
that
community
members
can
propose
their
own
charities
and
then
we
have
adding
projects.
So
it's
we're
trying
to
decentralize.
A
Incredibly
interesting,
you
know,
one
of
the
one
of
the
challenges
is
getting
getting
the
word
out
about
all
these
socially
conscious
and
uses
of
the
the
technology
that
you
know.
We
find
incredibly
interesting,
but
you
know
I
you
know
outside
of
those.
You
know
in
this
sort
of
little
little
bubble.
A
They
don't
know,
even
though
it
exists
you'd,
be
interested
to
explore
ways
for
the
industry
overall,
not
just
to
advocate
you
know,
with
sort
of
financial
regulators,
for
example
to
you
know,
with
respect
to
securities
rules
and
so
forth,
but
but
rather
just
you
know,
to
to
publish
as
an
industry
all
of
the
exciting
projects.
Both
you
know
e
s
and
g,
so
that
you
know
the
the
sort
of
public
perception
changes.
B
Yeah
we
are
like
so
so.
Our
main
focus
is
environment
and
an
open
source
project
and
education
right.
So
so
that's
sort
of
the
main
categories
that
we
have
for
now,
but
we're
basically,
the
g
in
esg
like
because
we're
decentralizing
the
governance
as
well
and
and
we're
doing
it
with
the
communities
and
and
the
environment
is,
of
course,
one
of
our
pillars.
D
Yeah,
I
think
you
you
mentioned
a
really
important
point
to
you
know:
have
this
public
outreach
more
and
work
on
this,
but
I
think
from
a
builder
perspective,
especially
if
you're
you
know
a
small
startup,
it's
actually
quite
hard
because,
like
a
public
policy,
person
is
probably
not
the
first
person
you
hire
into
into
a
startup
say
it
isn't
so,
but
I
think
what
can
really
help
here
is
like
coming
together
and
formed
like
smaller
associations.
Essentially,
there
are
focus
on
the
subset
of
this,
so
we
started
last
year.
D
For
example,
this
initiative
called
climatecollective.org
that
like
collects
different
web-free
firms
and
projects
that
are
kind
of
working
in
the
space
and
a
lot
of
their
public
outreach
is
actually
done
through
that
collective
and
they
have
some.
You
know
they
hired
some
people
in
the
meantime
and
it's
just
a
cost
argument.
I
mean
to
some
extent,
but
it's
quite
efficient.
To
be
honest,
so
I
can
just
encourage
you.
You
know
to
like
get
together
and
yeah
and
check
out
like
those
just
initiatives.
A
You
know
everything
we've
talked
about
today.
You
know
it's
it's
on
their
mind,
but
they
don't
have
the
folks.
I
think,
with
the
expertise
that
you
know
is
in
this
auditorium
here
today,
and
so
you
know
if,
if
there
is
a
gap
to
be
bridged,
you
know,
notwithstanding
all
the
really
exciting
and
important
substantive
work.
That's
being
done,
you
know
it's
perceptual,
it's
communication.
A
F
Thank
you
so
my
question,
because
we
we
mentioned
about
the
nuclear
technology
and
how
it
helps
proof
of
work.
What
are
your
thoughts?
I
mean
this
is
to
the
whole
panel
of
next
generation
nuclear
technology
such
as
fusion,
and
you
know:
where
does
it
fit
in
providing
sustainability
to
the
blockchain.
C
Well,
I
mean
I,
I
would
say,
innovations
and
nuclear
are
helping.
You
know,
green,
the
green,
the
supply
green,
the
energy
supply,
in
the
same
way
that
current
nuclear
facilities
do
I
mean
in
the
end
it's
it's
a
carbon-free
energy
source
that
is
incredibly
powerful
and
we
have
the
ability
to
rely
on
nuclear
in
terms
of
a
cheap,
carbon-free
energy
source,
whereas
it's
becoming
unfortunately
even
more
expensive
to
use
solar
than
than
it
was
before,
and
also
wind,
both
in
solar
and
wind
as
well.
C
We're
dealing
with
latency
and
therefore
either
using
lithium
batteries,
which
are
not
good
to
retire
for
the
environment
or
a
lot
of
people
are
still
relying
on
fossil
fuels
during
during
times
of
latency.
So
I
I
think
nuclear
and
hydro
are
the
energy
sources
that
we've
been
using
at
griffin,
specifically
because
they
are
constant
and
nuclear
is
is
cheaper.
C
It
really
is
so
it
has
the
ability
to
go
head-to-head
with
fossil
fuels
in
so
many
jurisdictions
around
the
world
where
solar
and
wind
just
aren't
there
yet,
and
hopefully
they
will
be
in
a
few
years,
but
but
right
now,
it's
not
it's
not
really.
The
best
for
a
business
model
of
where
you
need
to
have
your
machines,
running
24,
7
and
never
never
have
them
go
offline.
A
Right
I
mean
I,
I
would
say
that
you
know
well,
I've
heard
this
this
panel,
you
know
imply
at
least
the
the
the
criticisms
of
the
bitcoin
network
are
overstated.
What
what
I
think
can't
be
overstated
is
the
the
challenges
of
climate
change.
If
we
take
seriously,
you
know
the
the
negative
consequences
of
of
failing
our
our
paris
obligations,
there's
no
way
to
avoid
nuclear,
and
you
know
it's
it's.
You
know
on
the
left
in
the
environmental
community.
It's
you
know,
that's
like
a
third
rail.
A
You
know.
No
one
wants
to
admit
that
that
nuclear
has
the
role
to
play
that
that
it
has
to
have,
but
you
know
it,
you
know.
I
think
we
have
to
it's
just
my
personal
view.
You
know
if,
notwithstanding
all
the
challenges,
if
we
don't
embrace
nuclear,
we
lose
credit
credibility
with
all
those
that
you
know
want
to
deny
the
the
challenge
of
climate
change.
E
Thanks
thanks
so
much
that
was
a
a
really
interesting
panel.
My
question
is
for
anyone,
but
maybe
brittany
could
answer
this.
You
had
mentioned
the
energy
web
work
around
verification
of
bitcoin
mining,
clean
energy.
I
from
my
understanding,
that's
predominantly
for
grid
energy.
What's
your
take
for
sort
of
off-grid
energy,
the
methane
miners
and
things
like
that
in
terms
of
how
to
verify
the
sustainability
of
it.
C
So
it's
an
incredibly
complex
structure
that
has
been
worked
on
for
a
year
and
the
the
process
is
actually
for
every
minor
to
be
third
party
audited.
It's
led
by
energy
web
and
the
amount
of
data
that
has
to
be
provided
is
it's
very
special.
It's
taken
us
months
to
go
through
this
for
every
single
facility
for
every
single
data
center,
whether
on
on
grid
or
off-grid.
Off-Grid
is
a
lot
easier
to
prove
because
you're
having
just
one
local
energy
source
that
is
fueling
the
data
center.
C
So
a
third
party
can
go
and
audit
that
with
the
local
energy
authority,
that
is
providing
the
connection
and
say:
okay,
that's
a
100
hydroelectric!
That's
100,
wind,
that's
100,
coal,
whatever
it
happens
to
be
now
when
you
get
into
the
grid,
actually
verifying
the
energy
mix
that
goes
into
the
grid
in
that
area,
that's
actually
where
it
gets
the
most
confusing,
because
you
can
have
an
estimate
from
the
local
energy
authority,
but
you
can't
truly
prove
that
that's
the
exact
energy
mix.
C
But
that's
you
know,
just
the
energy
mix
is
not
the
only
thing
that
is
being
considered
because
there
are
so
many
other
forms
of
carbon
emissions
like
flying.
Asic,
computers
in
cargo
planes
or
even
on
ships
over
from
asia
to
the
united
states
is
definitely
a
big
footprint
for
a
lot
of
large
miners,
which
are
mostly
mostly
in
the
united
states
these
days
and
so
thinking
about
everything
from
how
the
materials
in
the
asic
computer
were
mined.
How
they
were
flown
over
how
they
are
retired
are
all
things
that
we're
also
considering.
C
How
often
are
your
executives
flying
around
you
know,
there's
how
are
other
things
that
your
business
might
use
being
shipped
in
either
trucks
or
cars,
etc
and
so
forth.
So
there
are
loads
of
different
things
that
we
are
considering
and
therefore
also
looking
at
you
know
what
kind
of
offsets
are
are
most
appropriate,
which
ones
make
sense,
which
ones
are
actually
funding
renewable
energy
development
and
all
of
those
things
are
taken
into
consideration
and
will
be
given
a
score.
C
A
A
As
I
said
here,
I
can't
think
of
any
legacy
industry
that
has
done
that
level
of
work.
You
know
most
most
major
corporates
that
have
announced
their
net
zero
commitments
by
some
far-flung
date.
You
know
they
have
either
no
particularly
accurate
idea
or
have
you
even
tried
to
to
determine
precisely
what
their
scope?
Three
emissions
look
like.
A
You
know
it's
just
incredibly
challenging
because
at
each
point
along
the
the
value
chain,
they're
often
dependent
on
information,
that's
difficult
for
for
them
to
get
without
sort
of
coercive
supply,
chain
contracts,
and
even
if
they
can
get
it,
you
know,
there's
there's
huge
delay
in
the
delivery
of
that
information,
and
so
you
know
every
company
out
there.
You
know
has
hard
work
to
do,
and
you
know
from
what
you
just
said:
brittany.
It
sounds
like
the
bitcoin
miners.
Are
I'm
gonna
be
ahead
of
the
game?
A
Well,
I
should
say
which
I
I
didn't
say
you
know
at
the
beginning.
Thank
you
for
having
us
protocol
labs.
You
know
this
is
a
sort
of
fantastically
important
subject.
You
know
I
I
actually
as
someone
who
didn't
has
only
come
to
the
the
crypto
space
recently,
but
has
spent
many
years
in
the
in
sustainability
and
environmental
law
and
policy.
A
You
know,
I
I
see
some
of
the
the
projects
you
know
being
conducted
by
you
know
the
the
companies
and
and
teams
represented
here
at
this
conference.
You
know
as
being
more
promising
than
than
you
know
almost
anything
else.
I
I
see
you
know
throughout
the
rest
of
of
the
environmental
community
and
you
know
as
bad
as
all
the
climate
change
projections
get.
You
know
it's
exciting
to
feel
like
there
are,
you
know,
really
smart
people
innovating.
You
know
for
for
a
better
future.