GitLab Book Club - Better Work Together, 14 Feb 2020

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From YouTube: Book Club - Better Work Together - Meeting #5

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Discussion issue: https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/book-clubs/issues/7

A

So come to our 50 now on the better work together to club and it only three people so far, maybe somebody else will sure, and so this time they went just check.

A

You know a number that says just resources and reflections, and it does anybody want to start on something.

A

B

Sorry I was just trying to look at the first. The first part.

B

The first part that had no notes the five step during part just to see like if there was anything I wanted to talk to about that. I didn't actually find that quite useful, but didn't really have much to say about it. So yeah, the sharing power, money and information section had a sort of section with a bitter reference it by name, but they reference.

B

Chesterton's fence- and that is the concept by the author GK Chesterton- that you, if you see a fence that you think shouldn't be there, because you don't see any reason for it being there. You shouldn't, take it down, whereas if you know why it is there, then you can take it down if that makes sense so like. If you think that there is no reason for something existing you're, probably wrong, and you probably don't know what the reason is.

B

Whereas if you know what the reason is, then you have a much better case so like remove it and I think in their descriptions like of what they did. They did learn a lot about.

B

What they were, what they were doing, so they were like learning about like how companies are structured and things like that in the process of like breaking them, I, don't I, don't see it as like necessarily counts. It's that example at all, but it is um I, think I think about a lot and like to take it to my day.

B

Job, especially because get them is I mean it's not super old software, but it does have a lot of stuff that was contributed that nobody remembers why it was there and then it's quite hard to impossible. Ii get us the same. Thomas we're like you know. You like there probably was a reason for this, but I don't know what it is and until I know what it is like I don't feel comfortable like changing it. So yeah I always think that's an interesting thing.

B

C

Don't know what was the original like a metaphor that he used it forward. Just then well, Cesar's talking about fences, engine or the electric cars in them or something.

B

Like you know, if you're you know, the defense is like a metaphor, even in the original sort of example, but like you know it might be like you know, we should get rid of this legislation, or we should get rid of this way that society works because there is I, don't see a reason for it to be there, which is sort of the fence in the analogy I guess so, I think we yeah I, certainly know people I have probably been that I've certainly been that person in the past where I've been like.

B

You know this is dumb like. Why do we ever have this like? We should get rid of it, which is normally normally an indication that I just don't know enough about? Why I'm talking about.

A

They also mention the.

A

B

Like reinvent the wheel, to use a different analogy right, like you'll say, like you know, I don't get why we have this and then you end up coming up with pretty much the same things like independently and I. Think that happens quite a lot, but they the way they described it in the chapter I thought like was was interesting because, like they were talking about, like you know, using this as a learning experience like I, don't think it's. It's necessarily bad.

B

If you remove something that you don't understand how it works in order to understand how it works like I, think that's also valid so yeah it was. It was interesting to make that sir and an.

C

Out here, like a lot to remove the fences are doing in the gator I. Do it all the time and most of the times it comes back to me and up with the fence right back in little production garbage, but I'll learn a lot doing that. One thing I definitely learned was to read their Rega comments before I, pronounce that something's, dumb and I'll remove it. Just by looking at the production code itself, I have the reader, like the comments explained explaining.

A

Why is it there?

A

It was missing and you add it back. You add a comment for the next person, so they hear whom I'd step or speck of other way. They also mention like taking things apart and seeing how they work and putting them together again. It really is like the definition of making basically like playing it's.

C

A really interesting concept- the social sciences writers, it's really up for us. It's really easy to understand.

A

C

Talking about software, but once you start talking about people and not trying to remove social norms or corporate norms that are most prevalent in.

A

Society that sounds really.

C

Daunting to me, I.

A

Guess it's definitely a slow process, because people will still faking the old people, maybe even realizing well they're, just no good to change into.

B

Yeah and I think you know it's definitely a cultural context to this as well, because, like I come from a country that some UK reached up until sort of fairly recent events was like. The big emphasis was on stability like we have no written constitution or anything like that. For instance, like we tend to do things like you know, we tend to like a crew procedure over time rather, like you know, have a clean slate and do it so like it's sort of and GK Chesterton was British as well. I think so.

B

I think that lines up in my mindset, whereas other countries might have different other countries, other cultures might have them different approaches.

A

But every flossed in general, like they tend to just end up like you, just usually have more nerves rather than refactoring. Basically the existing laws. Yes,.

B

A

Because the other law sounds like a prisoner and it's sometimes I guess easier to just have no exceptions and special closes.

B

Cool yeah, no I agree like I, think and I think it's that's partly because it is harder to remove a law than it is to add a law in the same way that, like you know, we like to move quickly with how we do things, and we also need to add checks to make sure that, like you know, quality is high and, like you know, the user experience is good and the documentation is good under this performance and everything else.

B

But it's very hard to remove one of those checks, because, like everybody's gonna, say well what you don't care about quality anymore. So it's it's like a very difficult conversation to have to go in the other direction like adding things is much easier than removing things and I think that applies to product and stuff as well.

B

Right, like you know, when you're considering, like removing a feature from a product, is sort of famously painful thing to do because, like you, will get a bunch of people who you have no idea where relying on this who say, like you know, this completely broke my workflow, etc, etc. Whereas adding a feature can be negative because it might slow things down, it might make the product- let's go here and overall, etc, etc, but is very like unlikely to have that. Like you know, you broke everything and reaction.

B

C

One thing I've found interesting in that sharing power, money and information. There was the was it was it there? No, that was the next one. Sorry for that, but what.

A

C

That they did, they said in this article was reflection. Was that doing the online decisions and a lot of the hard I know summarizing and everything online frees up more time for social interactions? I found it really interesting, we don't ever get a lot. We have a little bit more extreme environment when we see each other once every ten months. I guess it doesn't apply that much to us, but it makes sense even for smaller communities.

C

There are meeting each other once a month or something if you do all the the research and and debate online you can Justin talked about our kids and holidays. You don't have to talk about whether you want to pass this new directive or something like that.

A

And I think this is also mentioning other parts of the book that they're making the decisions asynchronously it's just usually more efficient, because some people need time to think about it before they can give their opinion, and it just gives everybody.

A

B

I think they're interesting because I they did say that meetings are still used for making decisions, but they said that most decisions that a sync and I think there are some decisions where it's more valuable to make them in that sort of high bandwidth context and a lot of decisions, probably most decisions where it makes more sense to do them. Asynchronously and the other thing about doing things.

B

Asynchronously is not so much a get Lab because, like we don't do things that way, but certainly in previous jobs, like you know, I've been to things where you go into a meeting and you're like right.

B

We're gonna decide what we're gonna do here and we say you know you come out of the meeting and you feel like you've decided what you're gonna do and then, like a week later, it turns out, like everybody, understood something different from that meeting or, like you know, three people have changed their minds like I've changed my mind like you.

C

B

Realized it's a bad idea because, like you know in the in the synchronous context, you don't have much time to like think about what might not be the best way. You know whether it's the best way or not, whereas asynchronous you can take more time. You can consider what other people have said. You can refer back to what other people have said. I find really valuable as well like you know,.

B

I find it useful to sort of, like quote people and sort of read like exactly what they said, not what I thought they said, but in a conversation like it just tends to go into my thoughts. S so I find that part really valuable, but yeah I'm, just gonna have a look and see if they mentioned, which decisions they use. The meetings for cuz I do remember that from there.

A

Some people I mean like any good discussions, asynchronously, maybe the position the other way around yeah, also like because they discussed some. You, like everybody, has the context in this has read everything when they come to meeting so everybody can like they can happen quickly and don't I.

B

C

Coffee bean is how I said I can when they had to make the initial draft of the restructure of and spiral. They were kind of small small group, and maybe they were co-located. That's what that's the only part I remember that was like only few people and probably really high benefits in one place. I.

B

Did I did think I was saying to Marcus just before the recording started that they, partly because of the nature of the book. There are definitely sections that you know because they've it's written by a bunch of different authors right, but there are sections where I'm reading them and I'm like this doesn't really do anything for me and then there are sections where I'm like honest there's.

B

You know this really resonates with me and obviously those would be different for different people, but I did find these two sections: sharing power, money and information, and then coffee, beer and pizza to be really good and I also thought they related to each other. Quite a lot like there was a lot that sort of has in common between the two so yeah and.

A

It was also saying, like the first three stores, it's more like a group exercise. Basically, so it's not much fun reading it, but we'll probably be interesting and I was wondering. If maybe we could do it in the book club but I'm not sure if that would make sense to probably most make more sense in a team or something like the group of people actually working together, it seems I was very.

C

Focused on personal purpose as well, and for me that was definitely a lot too many questions for it to be easy. Really, you know if you have questions like what's your purpose in life, I definitely would want to like go with an older book for an hour and kind of think about it rather than then just skim through it. So that's why I didn't really I. Have it in my to-do list, some of the questions to think about them deeply, but I didn't have enough time to.

B

I think there was a chapter that mentioned and I think it might have been that chapter that mentioned, like people tend to make those changes after they've had a break from their normal, routine and I. Think that's exactly!

B

Why is because, like when you get out of your typical context, you have the chance to reflect on things like that and think more deeply about things like that, whereas when you're in the day to day grind of whatever your day to day grind, is it's hard to sort of step outside of that and think longer term I.

A

Think this would make sense in the retreat. The like I contribute like context where everybody's like in a special place away from the daily business.

B

Yeah yeah, no exactly and that's why companies have things like retreats and offsites things like even you know, we have off sites which is kind of a weird name because, like everybody's off site, but you know like most, my companies do things like that right is to like you know, try and try and create that break.

A

Just what they say like in private life- that's probably by people like to go on vacation just to get away from you, though, just.

B

Call out something that I mentioned in the dark, I didn't actually mention in the call yet, which was that in a previous call, I think the first or second one we had Charlie mentioned about the bucket system for like how in spiral budgeting works. Where, like you know, it all, goes into a central account, and then you pay yourself out of the in spiral accounts. And then you can put our buckets for projects that you want by almost like Pixar, so for people to to fund.

B

You know- and it's quite friction free because, like it's not like, you have to take money out of your actual bank account it's before. It would even go into your actual bank account and.

B

Yeah, it was described in the book pretty much exactly as Charlie described it before, which makes sense, but it was interesting. Syrian know, I was like hey, I know this.

A

Is like a different decision-making method, because you don't need consensus from everybody. I just need enough support to have funding, and then you can do.

C

It was a nice drawing in the book that was kind of showing where the money flows is very raw and I like that. Yeah.

B

It was, it was fun, wasn't.

C

It lasts, come enough, I've, gotten exotic glasses, I. Think I like to coffee be a bit so the just because I it was really relatable like I, could understand everything that was said. Sometimes the articles are really abstract, but this one was I could understand why the restructure needed to happen and what were the moon, pitfalls and I could understand that one of the hardest thing, even they mention, didn't.

A

C

The author mentioned it in a in an article that, like deciding.

A

What is not part of the.

C

Core and spiral foundation just was one of the crucial parts and I think that, like that had to be a really tough discussion and it's it's like they're, always like taking as we mentioned just then taking things out is harder.

B

Than putting them back in.

C

B

C

Them that they managed to get to like free support functions that they agreed on.

A

And the rest of.

C

Them they outskirt.

A

And I guess another pointer than this: they didn't decide not to do them anymore, but just not defined the massacro function. So I guess everybody was still bonded. That was then responsible for making it happen. I guess.

C

C

Young, if you are seeing something so.

B

I was just saying like, like you, said, Thomas there's like all these deep questions and they're finding the stuff that matters I say, but even in the reflections that we were talking about, they were sort of talking about.

B

You know they did have quite a long list of questions like how do we get to the thing that we want to get to and often when people ask those I find it frustrating, but that's typically I think because I have a lot of the context in my head already and it's good they're asking them because they want to get the context like out of people's heads and enter into the conversation.

B

The book Crucial Conversations, which is a really good book, I'd recommend it mentions, like I, think it's the shared pool of knowledge or the shared pool of meaning as like an important thing in a conversation where the stakes are high, so like just stating things that you know or that you believe, even if you don't expect other people to agree with them or agree with the importance of them just to get people understanding like the basis for what you're thinking is very useful and I.

B

Think that's why those are useful and especially for a super important decision like they were or super important process like they were doing here. So yeah.

C

Crucial conversations are on my to-do list. Everybody get like dis raving about it. So it's one of the next books. It's.

B

Very good, actually I was gonna, bring it to contribute. I started an issue to swap books, so if you want a copy, I can just give you a copy that contribute. If you comment on the issue.

C

A

He also mentioned something like when you talk to author and describe your views or something like them or the skin point out like what your assumptions are, that he didn't even realize that you had and also they can tell you if it sounds authentic, like if you sound, convinced.

A

B

I think that is interesting and also even if like rubber duck, inking right like even if nobody else is actually responding to what you say. Just the act of you trying to explain like what you think is useful to you to understand like if you understand your thinking as well as you think you do right like because there's the whole thing about like you, don't understand something. Unless you can explain it, somebody else so I think that's a valuable part of that as well.

B

Even when it's about solos I mean there's a bit more self, reflecting a reflective may be a technical topic or whatever or.

A

Even just like trying to put it into a coherent sentence, because sometimes you don't really think like that, like sometimes it's more fussy when you have to explain somebody I could actually have to find the right words and explain it like this. They can help like they can help yourself understand how you actually think about it.

C

Like bring one of the really good functions of brain is just making you think that you know or what happened or like convincing you that you are in control like this.

C

Is you definitely know like the split-brain phenomena right when you, when you use Soviet people's brain because of epileptic seizures and then like the brain, that kinda talk, tries to explain always what the hand that's controlled by the other half of the brain got so like you reach for the glass of water, because to you are that creative I think it's the left right right hemisphere so saw a picture of glass of water, so you the other hand and then develop a starts to explaining it like, if had had all the reasons, and we do it all the time and if the books, you know to sit really really clearly, like you think you know, everything did we try to say a sentence to your friend and then you figure out you.

A

C

A

I guess we're running out of things to talk about because we're so few people today yeah, if you want, we could stop here, shut the bit more. What do you think.

C

B

This is the next one is the last one. Is that right.

A

B

A

Yeah so for Big Sur, oh yeah I still have to contact the the one right. There was interest in doing a Q&A with us, so I think I'll write on the issue like to see which they are not sure. If we can do it in the evening, so we'll may be able to find it.

A

C

I guess we'll.

A

See each other again in two weeks, thanks for joining.

C

Thank you guys.